"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022290e5db5f2c8478a934b521b280a66e4\u0022\u003ETuesday, 24 November 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3264a6fe0264893b251a62807165102\u0022\u003ETuesday, 24 November 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022727d41046f47468db913239b9c6fe833\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022119b096637ff4e91a80eb29086d16e4c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Defence Force\u2014Death of Air Force Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022910bf6ab2b8d42ff9ac68c9d74cf35ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022910bf6ab2b8d42ff9ac68c9d74cf35ce\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice on the death of a member of the armed forces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235322a5c93ee4f2eab42d2559c55abfe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de757155cde4213b3b1accc17bd0519\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House express its sorrow at the death of serving Royal New Zealand Air Force Flight Sergeant Andrew Bruce Forster. On behalf of the Government, and on behalf of this House, I offer our deepest sympathies to the family of Flight Sergeant Forster\u2014his wife, Karen, and their three children\u2014as well as to his squadron, colleagues, and friends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFlight Sergeant Forster lost his life on Thursday last week while conducting his duties as a bomb disposal expert for the New Zealand Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron. He had served our Royal New Zealand Air Force for more than 27 years, and earlier this year completed a 6-month deployment to Afghanistan as part of New Zealand\u2019s provincial reconstruction team. His was a career of service: service to the New Zealand Defence Force and service to his country. Flight Sergeant Forster loved his work and he was respected by his colleagues as a consummate professional. He had been recognised with medals for long service and good conduct, and for his service in Afghanistan operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EHis tragic death serves to remind us of the risks and sacrifice that members of our armed forces routinely undertake on our behalf. We are grateful for their bravery, their dedication, and their efforts on behalf of all New Zealanders. We stand alongside them as they mourn this tragic loss today, and we offer them our support and condolences at this most difficult time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeabbddcf5834396ad4f5a71262b8650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeabbddcf5834396ad4f5a71262b8650\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I join the Leader of the House in expressing, on behalf of my colleagues in the New Zealand Labour Party, our deepest sympathy to Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster\u2019s wife, Karen, and his three children, Candice, Mitchell, and Ashlee. We give them our deepest sympathy for their tragic loss. Our condolences go also to members of the New Zealand Defence Force. As a former Minister of Defence, I know that the Defence Force is very much a family, and his colleagues within the force will be grieving his loss at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESergeant Andrew Forster had served with the New Zealand Defence Force for 27 years. He was extremely well regarded. He was respected for the job he did, and he was much liked by those whom he worked with. According to one friend, he was always there for his friends and his colleagues. Any loss of life in these circumstances is tragic, but it is all the more so when we consider that Sergeant Forster had just returned from a rotation in Afghanistan. It was in Afghanistan that we would have expected him to be most at risk. Of course, in serving his time there he was separated for 6 months from his wife and children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWorking in the disposal of live ammunition is a dangerous job wherever one does it, but Andrew Forster accepted that risk. He was an experienced armaments specialist, and he was enjoying his new role with the Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron in Trentham, which I had privilege of opening last year. Accidents of this nature are fortunately rare\u2014only one has happened in the last 5 years\u2014but the New Zealand Defence Force will be conducting an inquiry into the accident to see what lessons can be learnt from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESergeant Forster\u2019s funeral will take place at \u014Ch\u0101kea air force base just a few minutes from now. Our thoughts are with his family, his friends, and the New Zealand Defence Force at this extremely sad time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00223793f6ce22a24dd389d8cb276cfa6ad0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223793f6ce22a24dd389d8cb276cfa6ad0\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party rises today to express its condolences to the family, friends, and colleagues of Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster, and particularly to Andrew\u2019s wife, Karen, and their three teenage children. Prior to his tragic death in Wai\u014Duru last week, Sergeant Forster had been involved in defusing bombs in Afghanistan. The work of defusing munitions in conflict zones is vital to allow civilians to get on with their lives and essential to maintain civil society in conflict zones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are proud of the work done by people such as Flight Sergeant Forster. New Zealand has sent teams of brave individuals like Sergeant Forster all over the world. In recent years we have sent bomb disposal experts to countries such as Lebanon and Cambodia to assist in clearing these conflict zones of thousands of munitions, which each year kill and maim scores of innocent people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI cannot imagine how dangerous the work that Sergeant Forster involved himself in was. The work of Sergeant Forster and his colleagues overseas will have saved many people from death and injury. It takes a special sort of person to put him or herself in harm\u2019s way so that others may lead normal lives. The Green Party is proud to stand in Parliament today and pay tribute to Andrew Forster for the brave work he did in the interests of making the world a safer place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022be2dfed0c1784c848614f175c69fa45a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be2dfed0c1784c848614f175c69fa45a\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT Party, and also on behalf of the Acting Minister of Defence, Heather Roy, to mark the passing of Royal New Zealand Air Force Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster, who was killed earlier this week in the course of his duty, at Wai\u014Duru. The Hon Heather Roy is unable to be here as she is attending Flight Sergeant Forster\u2019s funeral at \u014Ch\u0101kea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFlight Sergeant Forster served his country for close to three decades, having joined the Royal New Zealand Air Force in 1982. In that time he was posted to No. 14 Squadron RNZAF, Tech Wing \u014Ch\u0101kea, No. 75 Squadron RNZAF, the \u014Ch\u0101kea gun bay, the \u014Ch\u0101kea armament maintenance workshops, the directorate of aeronautical configuration, and the New Zealand Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron. Flight Sergeant Forster was involved in exercises in both Australia and Singapore. His first operational deployment came in 2005, when he was deployed to the Gulf, to the United Arab Emirates. This was followed by deployment to Afghanistan\u2019s Bamian Province with the explosive ordnance disposal team, from which he returned only in April. As others have remarked, this was dangerous work, and, clearly, Flight Sergeant Forster was a very brave and courageous man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFlight Sergeant Forster was a consummate professional in everything he did. This is reflected in his service history and the honours and awards that he received: the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, the New Zealand Operational Service Medal, the New Zealand General Service Medal (Afghanistan), and the NATO Medal for the Non - Article 5 International Security Assistance Force Operation in Afghanistan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHe was also a well-liked and respected mentor of those who worked with, and for, him. He was patient with subordinates, and always worked hard to help them to be the best that they could be. Andrew Forster communicated well across the ranks, and was held in the very highest esteem by both his superiors and his peers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHe was careful to balance his work with his commitments to his family: his wife, Karen, and their three children, Candice, Mitchell, and Ashlee. Our thoughts today are with them. Times like this remind us it is not just our servicemen and servicewomen who serve our country; it is their families, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAndrew Forster\u2019s death is a reminder of the dangers faced by our New Zealand Defence Force personnel every day, no matter where they are serving. He will be deeply missed by his friends at \u014Ch\u0101kea, throughout the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and across the wider New Zealand Defence Force. Our condolences and deepest sympathies go out to Flight Sergeant Forster\u2019s family, his friends, and his colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022c68128ef3b8841c3a25a2177c22a6aff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c68128ef3b8841c3a25a2177c22a6aff\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party stands to convey our respects to the bereaved family and the community at the loss of Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster. The impact of this tragedy will have spread from Wai\u014Duru, across Manawat\u016B, right through to Bamian province in Afghanistan\u2014all the areas where Sergeant Forster was respected and very well liked. But the shock of his death is even more pointed in that he was killed in the line of duty, carrying out a routine process to mark an unexploded bomb when the shell exploded, killing him and injuring another Defence Force member. I also have a close association with Wai\u014Duru Military Camp. I served there as a cadet in my younger days, and I also helped to establish tikanga M\u0101ori at Wai\u014Duru and the marae at Rongomaraeroa o ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101 i reira. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo I have been proud to be associated with the soldiers of Te Taua o T\u016Bmatauenga. Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster had just returned from active service in Afghanistan. He had served with the Air Force for 27 years, and ultimately he lost his life in the line of duty for a country that he was proud to serve. We too are proud to honour him and all those soldiers within Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bmatauenga who display such extraordinary courage in their commitment to Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs is our custom in respecting the dead, I must also acknowledge the passing of a young M\u0101ori leader, H\u0101wea Vercoe, a dynamic leader who, sadly, has also been taken from us. N\u0101 reira, k\u014Drua Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster, H\u0101wea Vercoe, haere k\u014Drua ki te okioki, hai aha? Hai wh\u0101riki m\u0101 m\u0101tou, haere, haere r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[So to you two, Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster and H\u0101wea Vercoe, depart to the resting place; and for what purpose? To be a cover for us, depart, farewell.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221af40b3720fe4fce9264c7fab455b0c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af40b3720fe4fce9264c7fab455b0c6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of United Future I join with the other speakers in paying a tribute and extending condolences to the family of the late Flight Sergeant Andrew Forster, who so tragically lost his life last week. It is hard enough to comprehend the loss of life in an active military situation, but it is even worse in a situation such as the one that befell Flight Sergeant Forster, when, to all intents and purposes, he was back on safe ground in New Zealand, reunited with his family after his stint overseas in Afghanistan and, I suspect, probably looking forward to a more tranquil lifestyle for at least the foreseeable future. His work was dangerous, but I still think he probably imagined that this would be a slightly more relaxed period of life than he had recently endured. All of that makes the loss of him that much more difficult for his family and his friends. They had endured the hard times, or so they thought, and now, when they were back together again, this tragedy has struck. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn this House this week we will be engaging ourselves in a range of important business to get ready for the Christmas period that is soon to befall us. Around the country people are starting to plan what their holidays might bring and what things they need to bring to a conclusion before the end of this year. For Flight Sergeant Forster\u2019s family, there will be a special emptiness. This time will be a time of great sadness, with a great feeling of loss. I just hope\u2014and I am sure it will happen\u2014that all his friends in the New Zealand Defence Force and people in the wider community who have been so shocked by the circumstances of his death will bind around his family now, to provide them with the strength and the comfort that they will need, not only in these immediate, difficult days but also in the more difficult days ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs others have said, this was a man of exceptional courage, working for a defence force that prides itself on its commitment, its integrity, its professionalism, and its dedication. In many senses, this is loss for the entire New Zealand Defence Force as well as for the Forster family. Our hearts go out to all of them in this time of tragedy. Our hope is that they can draw comfort from the strength and support of each other, and that the memories that are positive outweigh in the long term the sense of loss they are now enduring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab5b7580f30a48ce9c28f0b58d086da7\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e923517b1ba84414a354b7c2d84e535a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8f31e5bdb094dd4ad96e47f7a0adf5c\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Costs to Taxpayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e760d0faa49746d6b6bf9ef3b5e5ab17\u0022\u003E1. Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his comment that Treasury estimates that the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme could cost taxpayers $110 billion are \u201Cnonsense\u201D; if so, what is a more accurate estimate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7ef0f7f2f5d4f1fb465421b60ddf408\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7ef0f7f2f5d4f1fb465421b60ddf408\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes; a more accurate estimate is that the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme will be broadly fiscally neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3463956156487887296f65149f5511\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Treasury\u2019s advice not \u201Cnonsense\u201D when Cabinet relied on its figures in a Cabinet paper to approve the legislation before this House, but wrong when exactly the same people revised those figures, acknowledged that they had got it wrong, and told him that the scheme would actually impose a debt on New Zealand of $110 billion and on each and every New Zealand family of $92,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271aa21367ab84544be395383e58e92ba\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Although I will not take the House\u2019s time to dispute what are arguable points raised as facts in the question from the Leader of the Opposition, the fact is that whatever figure one might like to strike is entirely dependent on the price of carbon. In the case of the $110 billion, it was because Treasury chose at that time to raise the price from NZ$25 per tonne of carbon to NZ$50 per tonne; that is very imprecise economics. We can tell members that the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme will be, broadly speaking, fiscally neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634a77830fe744fba4b21304c44e5a22\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Prime Minister\u2019s response to his former chief of staff Richard Long\u2019s comments this morning that the legislation was a \u201Cdog of a bill\u201D and that he should \u201Cpull the plug\u201D on it; and when his friends are saying that as well as his opponents, is it not time that he started to listen to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b3952d00324fb5991e0bdf2a85a4ce\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The response to Mr Long\u2019s comments and to the question of the Leader of the Opposition is to ask him to come in and we will talk about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d38ea5b1604ef196b391f7a9c3519a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he disagree with respected economics commentators like Brian Fallow when they state strongly that the message of this legislation to polluters is \u201CGo for your life \u2026 Don\u2019t worry about the cost of those emissions. Someone else will pay for almost all of it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239822450466b4981ad6e0fc725619f29\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: All of the assumptions around the future cost of the emissions trading scheme depend on the price of carbon. It is very important that New Zealand has a system that puts a price on carbon in the first place. The Leader of the Opposition would, of course, react negatively to the suggestion that if we stuck with the Labour law that is there at the moment, jobs will be exported from exactly those people to other countries where there are less pernicious regimes. We do not think shutting the New Zealand economy down is the way to go. We think a fair balance, which this bill achieves, will be good for New Zealand, and will keep us on a growth agenda\u2014something Labour agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227136ac92baed4c3ab986b62ee6e214af\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: In rejecting the advice of Helen Aikman QC, the foremost expert in this area, to the Crown Law Office, that \u201Cthere is no evidence of a breach of the Crown\u2019s obligations under the deed of settlement\u201D, what legal advice did he rely on when he decided to offer millions of dollars from the taxpayer to five iwi incorporations in order to obtain M\u0101ori Party votes to pass this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9c0913d2724e4db55fa3fb495933b7\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Leader of the Opposition what is wrong with an arrangement that recognises the good-faith aspect of Treaty settlements. No one could have known some years out exactly what an emissions trading scheme was going to do to the value of iwi assets. I think we should be acknowledging the relative generosity of iwi in accepting that they will take over responsibility for planting indigenous forests on otherwise vacant conservation land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1b1ed1c5fa4a5592a712115d1abaf9\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the figure on the cost of carbon emissions that was relied upon to reach the settlement with the iwi corporations was exactly the same figure given by Treasury that he rejected in a question a moment ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1f7a1872d1425687d4f2fa075b6222\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228030f91a83f34236be56f51442f1b1a2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What are the cost estimates that he has received for the concessions made to the iwi corporations over the lifetime of those concessions in order to get M\u0101ori Party support for this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255fc496556f34b33977e4b4643aaac02\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Let us be very, very clear about this. The life of this particular project is 70 years. Anyone who expects to make an accurate prediction over 70 years is seriously deluded. The experience of the previous Labour Government is that it could not predict the deficit from one year to the next, so I do not think that the call for accuracy is in any way reasonable. I tell the member that in today\u2019s dollars, whatever those might end up becoming, it is $25 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022253d34759d8742e39cd241e9e1b66e09\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276df3c345c9d438f8cf1cd4bc2726ae0\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Does he agree with Dr Rhys Jones of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, a senior lecturer at Auckland University, who stated yesterday that the proposed emissions trading scheme will \u201Cdo nothing to incentivise reductions in emissions, but will instead give powerful and vocal corporate emitters a licence to threaten the future for our tamariki and mokopuna.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002201140839b3a6480785c3a43f23d7cbec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201140839b3a6480785c3a43f23d7cbec\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E No, I do not. The scheme will incentivise emissions reductions with a price on carbon from 1 July next year across the industrial, transport, and energy sectors. I also think it is quite misleading to refer to the allocations under the scheme as \u201Ca licence for vocal corporate emitters to pollute\u201D when, in fact, 80 percent of the allocations are for farmers. A disproportionate amount of our farm land is owned by M\u0101ori, and we should be concerned about the economic as well as the environmental future of our mokopuna. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b49f944ba54e079d5315f5270de0ff\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that his changes to the emissions trading scheme will result in a lower price for greenhouse emissions, and is he of the view that a lower price for greenhouse emissions will result in more emissions or fewer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab184965cdc40419db253f2cf735d02\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This scheme is a balance between price and how much progress we want to make on climate change. We have made a decision that a 10 percent increase in power price next year is too much. We have made a decision that a $400 million extra cost on business next year would result in a loss of jobs. We are saying that we will halve the cost in the transition. The contradiction I find from members opposite is that only on the weekend a Labour MP was saying that he was concerned about power price increases. If so, he should vote for our bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e66d946d474bc7aaed1b8e1f309cc0\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: The question was quite specific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223940e60d476c43008f68c4dbd5ca9908\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f6507e13324857bc0c3d966afa0708\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that the Minister did not address the question, which was about whether it would result in more emissions or fewer. It is a simple question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d23d362310e4f908e55a747f18eb10d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The thing is that with a question like that there might not be a simple yes or no answer. I think the Minister reasonably comprehensively attempted to answer the member\u2019s question. If that is the crucial matter, the member has a number of further supplementary questions with which to pursue it further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d0bef63cc8435094ddcfa06126e787\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister share the concerns of Dr Jones that the impact of this deeply flawed legislation will be felt most sharply by M\u0101ori communities, and the concerns of OraTaiao: New Zealand Climate and Health that the proposed emissions trading scheme will threaten funding for critical health and social services that are relied on by M\u0101ori communities, which are the most vulnerable? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354f07ac03584dd3ba28811653a2d84a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the amendments we are making and the sensible emissions trading scheme we are putting in place recognise that for M\u0101ori, as for other New Zealanders, we need to carefully balance our economic and environmental policies. That is what this scheme does. The great difficulty is that if we want to go ahead and impose higher costs on New Zealanders, we will add substantially to the incentive for industries to be exported, taking jobs with them, and doing absolutely nothing for the important challenge around climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c59f48bb27249268d8eb5bc74cc56bf\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received on the claim by some that \u201Cthis deal will cost Kiwi families $110 billion in payments to big corporate polluters\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204859f078f514de68c2bf8fad0d049e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That statement is a gross distortion of officials\u2019 advice, in three respects. First, these numbers are based on the existing emissions trading scheme\u2019s generating surplus profits of $50 billion between 2018 and 2050. We campaigned on amending the emissions trading scheme to make it fiscally neutral. These changes mean a loss of revenue to Government, rather than a cost to families. Second, $60 billion is added to this figure by assuming the super-profits of about $2 billion each year are invested and earn compound interest. This assumption contradicts the previous Government\u2019s policy that the revenues would be spent on other climate change initiatives. We cannot both earn interest and spend the money at the same time. The last point I make is that, far from being big corporate polluters, 80 percent of this figure is with regard to farmers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae35ea2fc66464e82c5540c9e59f212\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the honourable member. I cannot hear the Minister\u2019s answer. Members have asked a number of questions around this particular issue of the $110 billion figure. The Minister is giving the House some information on it. I think the House might be interested. I want to hear the rest of the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a5d4f214584acab7936deb46cc36e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The third distortion is claims of big corporate polluters in respect of the $50 billion. I say that 80 percent of this figure is derived from farmers. Members opposite are really saying that they would take $40 billion more from farmers\u2014New Zealand\u2019s most important export industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d28346e570b4d56a21e7c4710bd849a\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister share the concerns of respected economic commentator Brian Fallow that his proposed emissions trading scheme \u201Cpretty much guarantees that the peak in emissions will be higher and come later than would otherwise be the case.\u201D under the existing legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f68e2b2df194e1685a93d126f53bfe9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That question comes to the core issue of balance. It is this Government\u2019s view that the existing emissions trading scheme bears too big a cost relative to New Zealand\u2019s fair share. National campaigned on a policy not of New Zealand being a world leader\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b270acb3e1e64ddeb2f78f59ec2f4c32\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I supported the Minister a moment ago when he was giving a clear answer to a question. The member just asked a very specific question about whether the Minister agreed with Mr Brian Fallow about when the peak in carbon emissions might arise, given the legislation that the Minister is promoting. The Minister is ignoring the question, and is explaining why he believes his legislation is good. I ask him to actually answer the question that he has been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f887d31b762f4060b660f6a167b082b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that there is a direct link between the costs that we impose and how much incentive there is to reduce emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249daac0ccbff4a7bb73cce92d38863ae\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Still not giving a clear answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352dc0d1088b4b4aa42f6658bd5f81d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b640ba1bf274b538b8d706b7506b817\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How about \u201CYes.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02f41a9daca41b3ae0753df1ad802f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the answer is not yes. I do not agree, and I will tell members why. Over the first 10 years of the scheme, to 2018, the costs that are being imposed under this scheme are actually about the same as those of the existing scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ab7156caad4907addd9765e2fda111\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs correct when he told the Wellington chamber of commerce breakfast this morning that the Treaty clause was agreed on just 18 minutes before the deal was announced; if not, how many minutes was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea3d5b5c0a47423891deb1c36ad68c43\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have always made it quite clear that there are ongoing discussions with the M\u0101ori Party. We have been working on alternative Treaty clauses for several weeks, and I believe that the Treaty clause we have agreed on with the M\u0101ori Party provides an appropriate balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233bae9dfa42641f0af37a8ae84437570\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was sitting between the Minister and the member who asked the question. Because of the noise I could not hear the answer on whether 18 minutes was right. I ask your permission for the Minister to answer the question without the noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f107baffbaa74d8aa60bba440c726658\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made a perfectly fair point of order; I could not hear the Minister\u2019s answer, either. I ask the Minister please to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf6e91b1c6e4b56ac3f564b8ddda89c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Party put a proposition to us. We sought Crown Law advice. We finally came back to the M\u0101ori Party after receiving Crown Law advice to agree on the Treaty clause that is included in the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc33855144b4c69830ad87cd61111ff\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have now heard the answer, and it is very clear that the Minister has not addressed the question. He said that there was a negotiation and they had an agreement, but the specific question asked whether the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs was correct when he said that the Treaty clause was agreed on 18 minutes before it was made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c9a0910842444e9c7e0dac3064574b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4b3d9d12324ebd95dfb991db87e3e9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister speaking to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f38d6555c54e2b9e718d6d4a62f1d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270cf30e105d146459d77c9a6e90bcb0d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think a fair question has been asked, and I accept that the Minister did not actually answer the question. It may be the Minister\u2019s judgment that it is not in the public interest, but it is up to the Minister to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238469749655b4e268b813800066ae1df\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the agreement was reached at about 1 o\u2019clock. The Treaty clause was not released publicly until this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf9db437d4d4881ae586005b58b92b4\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he misinform New Zealanders on Checkpoint yesterday, claiming that the Warm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart home insulation scheme is not reaching enough low-income families, when the latest statistics released last week by Minister Brownlee indicate that some 75 percent of the money spent so far has gone to community services cardholders, which means that the extra $24 million in this package will make no difference, at all, to the rate at which low-income homes can be insulated? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1aa14c00b544314ad264b322e4682d2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Minister, I say that I accept that all these questions are in the general area of the emissions trading scheme, but this question is an awfully long stretch from the primary question. However, in the interests of advancing question time, I am happy for the Minister to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1d44a4200a49ed9c2757c60b66cd33\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This will be the very first time in the House that I have heard the Green Party argue that spending an extra $24 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe72319adc54f7f90200ab0bbd6f6cc\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the same money!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694f257397b3416abcf9baf6b0346084\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. I assure the Green Party that this is an additional appropriation over and above the $323 million, which will see an additional 8,000 low-income households insulated. I am surprised the Green Party would be against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e810d053966e4961a362b30e7ef13bf9\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm as correct the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2019 statement to the Wellington Regional Chamber of Commerce that the Treaty clause was important to the M\u0101ori Party because most of the detail for the deal with M\u0101ori is to be implemented through regulation rather than the bill, and therefore is still up in the air and not subject to any parliamentary or public scrutiny?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f02f7e3e03498e85657a3de0a96cab\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The agreement\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cddf3742af154da497848ead23e25f40\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister, but I want to hear the answer. I ask for interjections to be reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a9cb305df2453dbdd55912726b9ec6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: National agreed to a Treaty clause being included in the legislation at the time of the first reading of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The legislation has processes for regulations for all New Zealanders that require consultation. It is true that some of the most important decisions on the emissions trading scheme are in those regulations. This Government has committed to consulting M\u0101ori on those regulations; that is right and proper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e27500622644bfd9c0a7269c7ef0cde\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme result in New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions increasing or decreasing between now and 2050?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a299dbe987641f49a7b4ecae1b57604\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has a target of reducing our net emissions to 50 percent of our 1990 levels by 2050. This emissions trading scheme will contribute to that important objective. I note, though, that reducing emissions is incredibly challenging, given that in the 9 years of the previous Government, which was supported by the Green Party, emissions went up every single year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83f17546630446882334de467c8b2c0\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You asked me to ask a very direct question. I asked as direct a question as one could possibly imagine, but the Minister has not answered it. He talked about the target, which is fine, but I asked whether the changes to the emissions trading scheme would increase or decrease emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b1463b92124ba3907a189d5ae8d727\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the honourable member. His question was, commendably, to the point. He asked whether the changes to the emissions trading scheme would likely result in an increase or decrease of emissions to 2050. That was the question, and the Minister did not actually answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7a683b03a7143ed8aad552e8435fabb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The emissions trading scheme will see New Zealand\u2019s emissions reduce over time. The advice that I have received applies only as far as 2020. My advice is that by 2020 the emissions trading scheme will result in New Zealand\u2019s net emissions being 10 million tonne less than they would be without the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225df403b6367489886dc60c692017716\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was very specific. It asked about the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme. The Minister is trying to avoid the question by talking about just the emissions trading scheme. That was not the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82fb4dd0aba4ccd846715b345a1c539\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the honourable member. He is absolutely correct. The question asked about whether the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme that is currently in law will result in an increase or a decrease in estimated emissions through to 2050. That was the question asked, and I think the member asking the question has a reasonable right to have an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f223bd4f92474632b53d54933aef1fd1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: For the period that can reasonably be projected, the amended emissions trading scheme will make as much progress in reducing emissions as the existing scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295446f62e8a84e3b8f0a00d31e5b6174\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the opinion piece in the Sunday Star-Times from Rod Oram entitled \u201CA costly exercise in hypocrisy\u201D; if so, is the endangered species referred to in the caption the panda or him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd517170c3cc43d489c6e610888d07cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I simply note that this Parliament has been arguing for 15 years trying to get a pricing tool to make New Zealand\u2019s climate change policy credible. I have worked hard to introduce a carbon price next year. I will be the first climate change Minister to achieve that, and it will be a substantive step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285270922243e49cfb01ab1942a9785b7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Speaker will have heard reference in question No. 2 to a Treaty clause in the emissions trading scheme legislation, which we will move on to immediately after question time. I have looked again at all of the Supplementary Order Papers from both sides of the House, and I cannot see that amendment. I was wondering whether I could be informed as to whether one has been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221822cd4908b9433b8e586e3abc3266b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a valid point of order for question time. I am sure the matter will be dealt with in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246e5264b8eb14d83ac332addf4b96a80\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227890ed6badaa4bc6ab22736696a62511\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: What reports has he received in respect of the amended emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022477a1310b86d4060b8fee73378142a39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022477a1310b86d4060b8fee73378142a39\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I have heard reports from the Greens that the amended scheme is insufficient to protect the environment, and reports from ACT that it would wreck the economy. The criticisms made by commentators are about equal in both directions, suggesting that we have got the balance about right. National campaigned on a balanced approach, and that is exactly what we are delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab72fcac2df4c9aa6f27ba51a90d045\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What was the provision in the contract with Ng\u0101i Tahu and other iwi that has led the Government to reach an agreement on carbon farming on the conservation estate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222acb5c4926344fc081453cac1ec9d108\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The contract provision in the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement specifically required the disclosure of any information that would have a material effect on the properties selected. I reject the Opposition parties\u2019 claims that the amended scheme is showing preferential treatment for M\u0101ori parties. Let us say that any forest or any other Crown property had been sold to a corporate\u2014nothing to do with the Treaty\u2014with the same disclosure requirements and a subsequent loss of value of between $70 million and $120 million. I do not think a member of this House would be so naive as to not expect that corporate to take, or consider taking, legal action against the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb98fd0ada3f4e649b25a1bd27b89f0e\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that \u201CCrown Law advice suggests \u2018there is no evidence of a breach of the Crown\u2019s obligations.\u2019 \u201D, as claimed in Phil Goff\u2019s press release yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c059041c5a3c470a8c57ce9c705699ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct. The official advice was, and let me read it out directly: \u201CCrown Law has advised that it cannot rule out the risk that there may have been a failure by the Crown to disclose relevant information as part of the property selection process. The disclosure provisions in the deed of settlement could have been breached.\u201D It is on this basis that the previous Government agreed to try to negotiate a resolution of this issue with Ng\u0101i Tahu, and it is a bit opportunistic for Labour to now criticise us for doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f6aa16636a4e12bae0e639bdba467e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to clarify\u2014were the last two sentences from Dr Smith a quote from Crown Law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a45284518df4f5c9f1e65ead7f00bfc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat immediately. The member will sit down immediately. I ask the member how he thinks it assists the order of the House for him to not resume his seat when I am on my feet calling for order. I invite the member to reflect, or he will be taking an early shower. I warn him that the abuse of the point of order system is something I will not tolerate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b5d075d9cf464aa4e8abb430410f58\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am reluctant to intervene after you have ruled on my colleague, but I think there was accidental confusion from the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3f17d4dba544acb1c1e0b3a2b83461\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now resume his seat. I realise he has been away from the House for a few days\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224469068309994416b6c1317412679a23\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That is out of order, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022241e8078198a4bb3b47f94894d994e58\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. The reason why I chose to do that is that I do not appreciate members, even the Hon Trevor Mallard, thinking he can get away with that when I have made it very clear that the point of order process cannot be used in that way. He will not get away with that. That is the end of matter. I have ruled on it. I make it very clear, and if someone wants to leave the Chamber, it will be fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587f025fb7e142dd94fadcb1c13de1d9\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister just make the claim that he did in answer to last question, when it is very clear from the Crown Law opinion that \u201CFirstly, there is, however, no evidence that any material information on the emissions trading scheme was withheld from Ng\u0101i Tahu.\u201D, and when the concluding paragraph makes it absolutely clear: \u201Cconclude that there is no evidence of a breach of the Crown\u2019s obligations under the deed of settlement.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fc95333a684f4b9816bcfd0d719cfb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There are different views from the QC\u2014not Crown Law; the QC who was commissioned by the previous Government. I say to the member opposite that the quote that I read\u2014and I will read it again\u2014is the official advice to the Government, and I will read it for the House\u2019s benefit: \u201CCrown Law has advised that it cannot rule out a risk that there may have been a failure by the Crown to disclose relevant information as part of the property selection process. The disclosure provisions in the deed of settlement could have been breached.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014f862759554b458a2458c5d33719a8\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If the Minister is quoting from the official document, might it be tabled please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229022d47aff8e4184a776f55e946fbaab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, if the Minister was quoting from an official document. It is requested that that document be tabled if it is an official document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae2fd569bedb4476b1a42a529e43bcdf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de99329ef30e4ed5a5b030b766227854\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To clarify whether it is official.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270dce7de6a04dea9fc61224c1c27b0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, just to clarify the situation. The quote I have came from a Cabinet paper. I do not have the Cabinet paper with me. I have the quote that was taken from the Cabinet paper. I am happy to table the piece of paper that I have in the House, if that is your wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b334a53c16f41e9b07f8dbadafc1bd8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: An interesting issue has arisen. The Standing Orders, as I understand them\u2014and I stand to be corrected here\u2014actually require a document that is being quoted to be tabled; not just a passage from the document. Unless I am challenged, I ask the Minister to table the paper from which the quote is taken, when it is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70d4747f5484948a2c55505f70269d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yes, it is available. There is a difficulty, and I want to be very up front with the House. The normal convention in the release of such advice of Cabinet papers is that the Opposition first be consulted. I am assuming that members opposite are relaxed about the release of that Cabinet paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fead7270ac58441ba3051eb31fbbc19f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b122900d814fada844644dbf730b0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Since it is an interesting issue, I will hear from the Hon David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a102d748e75640c6ae12fedff00f9c14\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I was the relevant Minister at the time, and I would consent to that being released.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29faeb6fd3c456cb4429dbf27ec5eeb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It appears, as I understand the Standing Orders, that the paper should be tabled when the Minister can get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c455351f14148f694d6904806f0bff8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just need to check this point, because it is important: the Crown has reached an agreement in principle with Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426d7dae3510494b890a57f9bf6c6af7\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b522e725014f49b391fc8d6276887614\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not; it is an important point. There is legal advice\u2014not in that paragraph but in other parts of that document; not in that quote, but other parts of that document\u2014that might be prejudicial to the Crown\u2019s interests. Mr Speaker, are you requiring that even those passages in that document, which may be prejudicial to the Crown\u2019s interests, must be tabled in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e2f0c4c6d464dc4b3a8324952591714\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think it is highly desirable that this whole issue gets taken off-line and dealt with\u2014[Interruption] Let us be clear. The convention is that one Government\u2019s Cabinet papers\u2014[Interruption] That is quite right\u2014the Standing Orders do make some provisions about documents that the Minister has in the House with him. The difficulty here is that the quote was from a document clearly from a previous Cabinet, and the member will know well the convention is that documents like that are released only with the permission of the previous Cabinet. The former Minister has said that he is comfortable with releasing that. I think it would be wise if all parties have a look at the entire document before we proceed down this particular track. I want to add further that I do not think the Standing Orders were ever put in place to defeat some of the principles that enable executive Government to operate in a country like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c32f6d70b39b4a49ad31b7422aabc67f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The points raised by the Leader of the House are actually red herrings. Standing Order 367 is very clear. It states: \u201CWhenever a Minister quotes from a document relating to public affairs a member may, on a point of order, require the Minister to table the document. \u2026\u201D There is only one exception in the Standing Order and that is if the document is confidential. We have heard the genesis of the document. It is a Cabinet paper from the previous administration. The previous Minister consents to tabling it, so does the Opposition spokesperson. There is simply no objection or practical reason why the Minister\u2019s offer to table the document should not be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b4447e04ccd41dfbfa66c0155db6ad8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Standing Order 367 also states\u2014and it is very important\u2014that \u201Cunless it is of a confidential nature.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022230a4d0c24604b18910d7222d5e3690e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We just heard that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a0ac263e43447a9aa07a9c1a765b99\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; let me finish the point. In respect of confidentiality, we would normally use the test of the Official Information Act. The Official Information Act makes it quite plain that those documents that would pose risk to the Crown by their release should not be released. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1fef77e30144969f1aaa0053c2e91a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc11b0acb0e43b091e69066c3f77dcf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No; let me make it plain. I commit to releasing the part of the Cabinet paper that I quoted. I will check with Crown Law as to whether there are any other parts of the document that would not be released normally under the Official Information Act as per the provision in Standing Order 367. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022badf796986984508998d8fb3789d698e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any further assistance on this matter. I thank members, because it is an interesting issue that has arisen. I kick myself for not having been quite as familiar with some Speakers\u2019 rulings as perhaps I should have been. Three Speakers have addressed this issue previously: Speaker Harrison in 1979, Speaker Kidd in 1998, and Speaker Hunt in 2000. Speaker\u2019s ruling 138/1 argues that in fact if the Minister has the entire document and quotes from it the Minister can be required to table the entire document. However, the Speaker\u2019s ruling states: \u201CIf an extract or portion of an official document is quoted, the Minister can be required to table that extract or portion only and does not have to go away and procure the whole document for tabling in the House.\u201D I blame myself for not having picked up on that earlier, and that would seem, I must say, to show my earlier ruling was not valid; it was incorrect. What the Minister should be required to table is the document from which he quoted today. I ask the Minister to do that. I think the discussion has been an interesting one, and I thank members who have contributed to that worthwhile point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac4d7c5d4464105b93164cc3ece7d55\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received on the valuation of the agreement with some iwi, and how does that compare with statements made by Charles Chauvel on Sunday that it will cost taxpayers $50 million per year, that that is a very conservative estimate, and that it adds another $2 billion to the cost of National\u2019s emissions trading scheme amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e6dcc6fa254411a87193327d93ba83\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Officials advise a total value of $25 million, compared to the valuation of Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s loss and claim, undertaken by the previous Government, of between $70 million and $130 million. This $25 million value is sensitive to the price of carbon and is based on $25 per tonne until 2013, and $50 per tonne thereafter. The $2 billion claim by Mr Chauvel is almost 100 times the official advice, and for him to describe the claim as very conservative makes Labour look hysterical and financially illiterate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290bf98a6e05a48aebadc079197ba1461\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen Brian Fallow\u2019s conclusion that his changes to the emissions trading scheme tell polluters not to worry about the cost of emissions because someone else will pay for almost all of it; and how is it fair to make taxpayers carry 84 percent of the cost of his emissions trading scheme, as the Sustainability Council calculates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59930f32e714f2782f562a8a633a5a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do no agree with that analysis. I point out to the House that the scheme we are implementing in New Zealand is very close to that of Australia. I say to commentators like Mr Fallow and the members opposite that if they want to make those criticisms of this Government\u2019s scheme, they must make all the same criticisms of the scheme that is being put in place in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1fa29ac93c24632ac94f00d53ddf634\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Job Ops and Community Max Schemes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259a035cb70f749b8973fa2f6ab627c64\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her statements on youth unemployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00225d787e3c4d694f318c627f0b511f4901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d787e3c4d694f318c627f0b511f4901\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef20ccbe3734aa681d40a5ece6ff628\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Last week she claimed that more than 4,000 places had been created under Job Ops and Community Max; how many of the places created have actually been filled by young unemployed people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b7aa6e2d0c48e3a640dac358493540\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did talk about over 4,000 places having been created. It is quite simple to understand, really. I am talking about Jobs Ops; I am talking about real opportunities for young people from real employers and real jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe16cb1cecfe41ab853128770d0554d7\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e3188a40f645ad90997708e6142588\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We have created over 2,048 Job Ops places; of those, 1,847 have been filled. There are 1,743 places on Community Max, of which 981 have already been filled. In fact, it takes an average of 6 days to fill a Job Ops place, and I for one think that is pretty impressive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bae716a0f494b3a87ced838d1688a7f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she continue to say that since Job Ops and Community Max were launched in August, those programmes alone have created more than 4,000 employment opportunities, when barely half of that number of positions have been filled; and does not this sort of disingenuous representation of statistics belittle the real impact that unemployment is having on our young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d95df76ac44867b9219b44b4106813\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I would not agree with \u201Cbarely half\u201D. We are talking about 1,847 positions already filled under Job Ops, and 981 places already filled under the other scheme. As I said, it takes 6 days on average to fill a Jobs Op place, which I think is pretty impressive. The Opposition might not like to hear it, but for 8 weeks we have had the number of young people on the unemployment benefit going down; there are more coming off than going on, and that is a good-news story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd12380fecd4367a5b7138eed34a43f\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to help students find work over the summer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32196d52bcd4d158eea9053eeb2f6dd\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The other announcement I made today is that there will be up to $1 million worth of funding for Student Job Search. Over 160,000 students are already registered with Student Job Search. We believe that investing in this campaign will increase opportunities for those students. We want to get every single job we can for our students, who are competing for jobs in a very tight market at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da825d5eedb74abdaa73bb9854ebc9a6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she claiming that Job Ops has been successful in stabilising youth unemployment, when only around 1,600 young people have actually filled such positions, and the number of youth on the unemployment benefit has gone up by over 8,000 in 7 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b645806ee204065bb4416318e7b9097\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the Opposition obviously has pre-done its questions, but let me give the House that number again: 1,847 places have been filled, not 1,600 like the member mentioned. To be clear, for 8 weeks in a row we have seen the number of those aged under 24 on the unemployment benefit going down. That tells us that what we are doing is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd93a294a2b14a699f5ed0386330b1dd\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Did she advise the Prime Minister before he flew into Katikati on a New Zealand Air Force helicopter that the business he was using for a publicity shot had laid off five young people aged between 17 and 19 just weeks before, and had paid them each $500 in what has been described as hush money; and has she been assured by the Ministry of Social Development that it will ensure that no young person is re-employed by that company using Job Ops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca8c915717b44278560ae18f34151fb\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What I did hear about the Prime Minister\u2019s visit to Katikati is that it helped promote job opportunities in that area. Employers stepped up and were very pleased to hear him tell them how the economy is going, and to hear more about this Government\u2019s initiatives, which are incredibly positive and going down very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a9d2f336d3042b3994d3c3908a06d94\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Job Ops and Community Max Schemes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85d0439138d48cbbdfbc26d40c1d42a\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the Government doing to help young people into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00222e73713101c54c60a4e8b67e4108b66b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e73713101c54c60a4e8b67e4108b66b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Today we announced 2,000 new places on our highly successful Job Ops scheme. This is on top of the 4,000 places that we announced in August. With Community Max this Government has created 9,000 opportunities for our young people since August. We are proud that businesses all over the country are stepping up to take advantage of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947cd3245cd34ae3a7dfcdb349177f59\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister extending the Job Ops scheme for young unemployed people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb69f24c261c4be89b5dc33dc1e23325\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It has been so successful that we expect all the places will have been filled by early next year. Employers are stepping up and giving thousands of young people an opportunity to get work experience and skills that would not otherwise have been available in the recession. This Government is putting more money into a scheme to make an extra 2,000 places available for young New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226220fdd3c8bb4e109dfe775147bcd82e\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Does she acknowledge that it is misleading to measure unemployment rates by benefit numbers alone, as she continues to do, when tens of thousands of young people are not eligible but, according to letters and comments that we have received, they are struggling to find work to fund further training or education; or will she continue to write them off as just people \u201Cat school who would like to have a paper run\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98e8f20466240058193d0a06d312aa4\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think what the member does not understand is that this is a complex bunch of young people who are doing a lot of different things, so we do have some who are looking for only an hour\u2019s worth of work a week. They are counted in the household labour force survey. I am happy to send some information over to the member if it will help her to get a better picture of what those young people are like and what they are looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1bbfb67876b48ff8204fed27a4c4fb1\u0022\u003EFinance, Minister\u2014Treasury Advice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa122769c5a0433e9fa93d764c589f55\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement: \u201CAdvice we disagree with is bad advice; advice we agree with is good advice.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022706e404dc3e647ed86cf0b06c02d0c45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022706e404dc3e647ed86cf0b06c02d0c45\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Yes. By way of illustration, if I may, there is one organisation from which we have received consistently bad advice for the last 12 months, and that organisation, of course, is the Labour Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221903ccd0873745c8b769cb17c9b4068c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: How can he consider the Treasury\u2019s emissions trading scheme cost estimate of $110 billion to be bad advice, when the Prime Minister agrees with it enough to use the same advice to justify including farmers in the scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc2cb3c78e349ccb1e62c80be535422\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The extra debt by 2050 suggested by Treasury only applies when compared against Labour\u2019s heavy-handed scheme\u2014a scheme that would drive New Zealand businesses and jobs overseas. As the Prime Minister has said, the figure is essentially nonsense, as it is impossible to accurately measure the effects of the emissions trading scheme 40 years into the future when so many variables are involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ad066eae3c4088878ff8e508667c5a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain why he is willing to accept advice from Treasury on the costs of securing M\u0101ori Party support for the emissions trading scheme, but will not accept Treasury\u2019s advice on the cost of a scheme to the taxpayer, when both assessments are based on exactly the same assumption of a carbon price of $25 a tonne to 2013 and of $50 a tonne thereafter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8478210618c483a92602a83797b9530\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I point out that the longer-term things are harder to measure. For example, the previous Government spent most of its time congratulating itself on being an excellent economic manager, but when it left office it left us with a decade of deficits, which just goes to show that sometimes when we look into the future we see different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c7246c1d4c4648a5019b2917dfcce9\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Opposition argues that the Minister\u2019s answer was fairly gratuitous in its nature. The Opposition spokesman on finance put to him a very simple proposition using figures, using specific year periods, and asking how the Government could use one set of figures in one category and then ignore exactly the same set of figures in another. All we had was a very political response from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b18c0f37e6e94c7796799eccf53e35f2\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The member got a perfectly reasonable answer. It set out to illustrate that although people may want to ask a question based on assumptions, it is reasonable for an answer to say that assumptions do not always give one the answer one wants to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6646fa0d81f49b9b95d7908751625e0\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8220b879464cb89b38faf231ef2490\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need to hear further; I do not want to be litigating the question by way of point of order. I think that the point raised by the Hon Darren Hughes is a fair enough point: the answers to questions that did not contain political statements have been overly gratuitous. I invite the Hon David Cunliffe to repeat his last question, and I am sure that the House will be interested in hearing the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222afeb3d5fb8a4ab58f637060d060fc95\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will read it slowly and carefully. Can the Minister explain why he is willing to accept advice from Treasury on the costs of securing M\u0101ori Party support for the emissions trading scheme, but will not accept Treasury\u2019s advice on the cost of the scheme to taxpayers, when the carbon price in both assessments is identical, at $25 a tonne until 2013 and $50 a tonne thereafter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036825c792c34218b2c0a23e3e04f500\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Because other variables involved in both assessments are different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3b6a544c13413fa348fbce66dd8abe\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the previous supplementary question, what advice, if any, has he received that refutes the fundamental problem with the emissions trading scheme legislation that the deal with the M\u0101ori Party is just one concession in a bill that contains billions of dollars of concessions for polluters and passes the mounting cost on to our children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824824a6742948c181675d6ef508be56\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not seem to understand that any emissions trading scheme has to balance economic opportunities and environmental responsibilities. We have taken a deliberate decision to moderate the emissions trading scheme to keep jobs in New Zealand. When will the Labour Opposition work out that without businesses, we do not have jobs and we do not have taxpayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269a6611d8e5b4e24a919d2a7817150b4\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Effect on Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bfb878de04f41ed91c688f67b705f75\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Does he agree with the M\u0101ori Party that the revised ETS has a focus on whenua and increasing environmental sustainability; and how will the intention to provide better protection for the environment be realised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002258ba91074f4d4112b57197a39f528b89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258ba91074f4d4112b57197a39f528b89\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The revised scheme and changes negotiated by the M\u0101ori Party address both the issue of costs to low-income families and the importance of Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, or the natural environment. It also makes significant new commitments around the protection of the environment, on which I am looking forward to working with the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da5fc8b6da446a8bf24ca2d91172b62\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: How will Enviroschools, or Kura Taiao, contribute to the goal of enhancing environmental outcomes consistent with the kaitiakitanga our people are responsible for discharging over their whenua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354f294ca9b94f8b9b429267bcb5c6f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that the M\u0101ori Party has brought to the negotiations the issue of Enviroschools. The Government has had concerns about the effectiveness of that programme, so we have agreed to extend funding for 6 months, and then to work on refocusing Enviroschools to make sure it is practically effective. I am looking forward to working with the M\u0101ori Party on doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd95bc91b9194923ae08ad246c4ad0d7\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: What commitment is there to support further environmental restoration initiatives, in partnership with iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388a2e607474465e95db7f8c56255f37\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of measures across the 12 specific agreements with the M\u0101ori Party. They include a very important national policy statement on biodiversity. They also involve work on afforestation. I think the M\u0101ori Party made the very good point that the planting of indigenous trees in many areas of New Zealand is one of the lowest-cost ways that New Zealand can both improve the environment and reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226951065a3c564b21b2d79edd130c5f4c\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen Brian Fallow\u2019s conclusion that his Government\u2019s changes to the emissions trading scheme weaken the incentive to reduce emissions in those sectors responsible for the lion\u2019s share of them, and pretty much guarantee that the peak in emissions will be higher; if he has, how does enabling increased emissions provide for increased environmental sustainability or provide better environmental protection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6c514c050c4e9dad20d4550000204f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Brian Fallow on this point: the greater the cost of carbon and the more broadly that it is based over the economy, the more there will be a reduction in emissions. I note that over the first 10 years of the scheme, the costs are the same as under the Labour scheme\u2014actually slightly more under the National scheme. That is why I draw the conclusion that the emissions reductions that we can achieve under this scheme over the first 10 years are very similar to those under Labour\u2019s scheme. Beyond the 10 years, the key issue is the phase-out rate. That is regularly reviewed. We have chosen a 1.3 percent rate, which is the same as Australia\u2019s. Members opposite want to argue for 8 percent. That would be a very big cost for industry and would risk simply exporting our industries offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220693394297484b4e833a4f386abcc249\u0022\u003EClimate Change Issues, Minister\u2014Long-term Estimates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a021c74626dc48f481c38a883eb59d47\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CI have always said that figures out beyond a decade are very uncertain\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0412675a2334e2da9166c7ab5d9ab48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0412675a2334e2da9166c7ab5d9ab48\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. There is uncertainty about the international rules, about the price of carbon, and, in the long term, about what technologies and growth rates there will be. I recall a previous Government promising a $1 billion surplus from Kyoto, and only 2 years later having to accept that it was a $1 billion debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5192304b7b42e5831aa39ee223cdec\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: If figures beyond a decade are \u201Cvery uncertain\u201D, is he confident that the Government will be able to meet its \u201C50 percent by 2050\u201D emissions reduction target 40 years into the future; if so, how can he be confident in a target for emissions reductions in 2050 but dismiss Treasury predictions for the same year as \u201Cnonsense\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce6c7fa7ef3e40c7ae7d2672dc9f7b51\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am a lot more confident that this Government will meet its \u201C50 by 2050\u201D target than I am in believing the claims of carbon neutrality from the previous Government, when in every single year it was in Government, emissions went up, and went up faster than emissions in any other developed country. How the Opposition does not like the truth about its record!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223693db74963b4708aa64cb2ed3e26a5b\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government\u2019s long-term policy on the 1.3 percent per year phase-out rate, noting that the Act provides for it to be reviewed every 5 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213655879d75241f0a1fbc5fc2d659fc4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: These allocations are being provided because sectors are emissions intensive and they are trade exposed. The 1.3 percent phase-out rate is similar to schemes in both the European Union and Australia. We are not rigidly fixed to the 1.3 percent rate in the long term, but we want to keep it roughly in line with our trade competitors, so as not to disadvantage industries that may simply move offshore and cost Kiwis jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d858229c24eb47e091782b32f267350f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister tell the House, and the Prime Minister tell Federated Farmers, that Treasury estimates the cost of the emissions trading scheme by 2030 to each farmer at $3,000 per year, if they both believe Treasury to be so unreliable, and figures beyond a decade to be \u201Cso uncertain\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864ca6e5caa24a28a43f0f5f0ea711de\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is certainly true that for the farming sector the 8 percent phase-out rate in the current law would put very large costs on to the farming industry. If members opposite want to talk about large losses of revenue to the Crown from our changes, they should also be honest with farmers and say that they will impose very large costs on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227567bc72378d4de9b69a734e748ff750\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister read any commentary from Charles Chauvel that says it is foolish to align the New Zealand scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719362ccb0b346e2890d765d162afa7a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure how the Minister can possibly be responsible for any comment by Charles Chauvel. The member might like to reword his question, but I do not see how the Minister is responsible for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccbb52d35a848bdbe6439242a20b7d6\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understood that the member asked the Minister whether he had read the comments. That is a reasonable question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254203810a2f942b295fba8be771bd7f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What troubles me about the question is where it is clearly leading. I would find it totally unacceptable if the Minister were to launch into a criticism of an Opposition spokesperson, because that is not his responsibility, unless the Opposition spokesperson asked a question that provokes such an answer. I think it is stretching the Standing Orders a fair distance to ask the Minister about comments that another member of the House has made. I am sure the member can reword his question and make it more reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d352a3fa23c74f4bbc7527880db071e3\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think your ruling is not consistent, because we have had questions such as whether the Minister has seen the comments by well-noted, marvellous reporter Brian Fallow, or the glorious Rod Oram, etc., all afternoon. If we can ask questions about the comments of these highly intelligent and insightful commentators, surely we can ask whether they have seen the comments of Charles Chauvel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a9fa63ce2a41848f15a355126a48fc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the point the member is making. I will reverse my objection to the question. But I want to be clear that I do not want it to be used as an excuse to abuse another member of this House. I accept the point the Hon Rodney Hide has made, but if I allow this question I do not want to regret it in a few minutes\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5598ccd1b94f77895845ef5d4cdea2\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister read any commentary from Charles Chauvel that it is foolish to align the New Zealand scheme with Australia\u2019s, as it will never get through its Senate; if so, has he received any updated reports on progress across the Tasman?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204774e81d6934675b291ee0a9ad80de4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chauvel, again, is wrong. An announcement has been made today that an agreement has been reached to enable the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme legislation to be passed through the Senate this week. I note that the amendments have only just been tabled today by the Australian Labor Government. Its intention is to pass it through the Senate this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230fee9469a104582ba25c8e058b3e5a1\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister understand the difference between the shadow Cabinet of the Liberal Party of Australia agreeing in principle to some amendments proposed by the Australian Labor Party, and the difficulty that the Liberal Party will still face in getting those amendments through the party room and through the Senate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f61e2028bca45c8bca08f43d3c9276d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there are some differences of view within the Liberal Party of Australia, in the same way that I have noted here. I have heard one member from Labour saying that the agreement with the M\u0101ori Party is a sell-out by M\u0101ori, and another spokesperson from the Labour Party said exactly the opposite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2bca692180d45e7816a1e99ffd756af\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510ceaf0d39e40e587b9b3803d4b643f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member like me to table the statements from the various members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f388b668474539957b83bee3551043\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that the question was a relatively confined one relating to the Minister\u2019s understanding of the Australian political environment. The answer seems to have strayed very wide of the mark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcb4e5e77e342859ab6720ed888eae0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a point of order, and one would never know that from the noise in the House. But I think that is a reflection of the fact that the House is not too impressed by the member\u2019s point of order. The question was an awfully long way from the primary question, so I do not think that too precise an answer can be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a8dd1e1543a4e4eb3ddceb0de1c15c1\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: If Treasury\u2019s projections should be disregarded, in part because allocation decisions are to be reviewed every 5 years, why should New Zealanders have any confidence that any review of allocations done under this Minister will not simply do what his amendment does, which is to heavily favour polluters and circumvent public opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00035b8d72d49f68baa27b7f5133523\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think it does. If I look at my emails, there are some people who are emailing me very heavily saying that this scheme does not go far enough to protect the environment. I receive a large number of other emails and commentary saying that it is too hard on the economy. I think this Government has the balance right. [Interruption] I say to the members opposite that for 9 years they made no progress on climate change. This Government will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI seek leave of the House to table the papers released in Australia this afternoon outlining the agreement and the changes to the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme on that side of the Tasman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7e7b1c882e4c889187318e857add12\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05dcbed3a3940d2be99e78e52b784df\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that you may feel comes close to a ruling that you made earlier. But I think it is in the public interest to seek leave to table a report from the Sydney Morning Herald online from about an hour and a half ago indicating that the changes to the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme in Australia are by no means a done deal as far as the Liberal Party of Australia is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930d91d3fcc74ab5b4b2954b4c555c66\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226258e5cc1be24360bc81719a3e5c1eed\u0022\u003EPublic Transport, Auckland\u2014Progress on Projects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fcf515cad54dcebff3640cda81fdf5\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What progress has been made on improving public transport infrastructure in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002276aa16fb2edc4a279229028dabcc17c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276aa16fb2edc4a279229028dabcc17c8\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to report to the House that Cabinet has approved $500 million for the purchase of new electric trains for Auckland. This is a very significant milestone on the way to delivering Auckland a modern and more reliable rail network. The upgrade and electrification of the Auckland rail network will provide for more frequent, smart, and modern trains at peak times and will help to meet future passenger demands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d010240fc15741c2809b404d5c220971\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: What is the next step in securing this improvement in rail services for Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af2905bced014bf3a0468f559c7fac64\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The confirmation of this funding\u2014without a regional fuel tax for Auckland\u2014will see KiwiRail and its client the Auckland Regional Transport Authority re-engage with the market very early next year for the supply of new trains. I expect the first electric trains to be on the ground and operational from 2013. Work with the Auckland Regional Transport Authority and the New Zealand Transport Agency will continue to ensure that these new and increased levels of services can operate sustainably and with reasonable levels of passenger transport subsidy. I expect that work to be completed within the next 6 months, and I can report that the trains are currently running to time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7cb19c92e484bdf96498f4cfb092f2b\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How can 2009 be seen as anything other than a waste for Auckland rail when the Government is today re-announcing the same amounts of money that Labour had set aside for this project\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af253311eff64cdd8366094cd63ea9e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Where was the money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f3d99dd5f2049449046969c58eb57aa\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014from the regional fuel tax, and when the months and months of dithering by him as Minister has interfered with the tendering process, meaning that Auckland now stands to be able to buy fewer trains with exactly the same amount of money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59945fa31d54e559276f6f65fff1d6f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I point out to the member opposite that the Government is achieving, by good fiscal management, the full roll-out of the Auckland trains without the 9.5c extra regional fuel tax that the previous Government was going to place on Auckland motorists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022700ba97d953b425286b9be72b24906a2\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill\u2014Hearing Loss\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f2ef6c51a94c93b2a331d95b70f1bb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Do any of his Cabinet papers relating to the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill expressly advise Cabinet that the effect of the bill is to restore the right of employees to sue their employer for hearing loss of up to 6 percent; if so, what is the date and title of the Cabinet paper and the paragraph number where that warning is to be found?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002207b365b2180d49d8bbfd57cb6c7ef322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207b365b2180d49d8bbfd57cb6c7ef322\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bca387bc992b4daa9ff52756bf3200d3\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think public confidence and, indeed, Cabinet confidence in his competence will be undermined or enhanced by his failure to advise Cabinet that the bill reverses the compensation for injury principle of accident compensation, and, in doing so, restores the right to sue for some workplace hearing loss? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b28e5a68c747529e9d03ad610709e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thresholds exist in terms of hearing in the United States, the UK, and Australia. Also, there already are thresholds for entitlements in the existing accident compensation scheme. But let me make plain to the member that it is not the intention of this Government to restore the right to sue. It is our policy to have a 24/7, no-fault scheme. The advice that I have received to date\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a2d17f727f443dba006b19b6ee91733\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve broken the social contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65f0450db554957b464f491fafb57bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Maryan Street broke the bank. Maryan Street broke the bank!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edb27cc47f849f383babce0ba2cf7b3\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What about the advice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc7735b6324d435abe6dc7cf2adead66\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: If Maryan Street had not left $2.4 billion of losses in accident compensation, of course this Government would not require a bill to reform the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e3142e369a4365933a012af5dfb0ba\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Bring it on, Nick! Let\u2019s have a public debate about it, Nick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5eafe24981741c38dcaa35690bd01f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Explain your losses; you left it in a mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da7be821bf245f3900345a20c0df4ef\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that employer costs for Australian worker compensation are already higher than New Zealand accident compensation levies for employers; if so, how does he justify his major cuts to compensation for New Zealand workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279724e7f71d94d6c9cf5db6f5514352b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is easier to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bd205cad584ab897f5475e6494cd20\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No wonder he\u2019s going to get sacked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706c51d0e0304dccb5c031cd200690bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, every time I have got to my feet to answer a question, even before I have been able to answer it there has been a barrage of abuse from members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e5c959e9de4fbba938239ef304e729\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e03f2e4234448599f342224f5923a97\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be silence, because I am on my feet. I think the interjections have been a little unreasonable, but I have to say that the Minister would have noticed that I allowed him to respond fairly forcefully to an interjection. It is in the House\u2019s hands. If members interject, Ministers are perfectly free to launch back into them\u2014within reason. I do not think the Minister needs much protection. I think he is pretty capable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8043c2c3cab4dec8d494f578bbb4781\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There are two problems with the comparison with the Australian scheme. The first is that it is easier to have lower levies when a scheme is losing $2.4 billion last year and $4.8 billion this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299581dc7f6a34691a0df67523f9521b3\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213320fd69d2d47baa155d8b949eee46a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King says that is rubbish. If it is, why did Maryan Street sign the annual report for the 2007-08 year, which recorded a loss of $2.4 billion? The second point is that we need to be careful in the comparison of employer levies, because in Australia motor vehicle accidents are incorporated in the employer levy, whereas in New Zealand they are allocated separately to motor vehicle levies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227228bf27c7994b53b598cf26f4945262\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received about the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill and whether it would affect the accident compensation entitlement of a person like Jan Molenaar, who, after going on a shooting rampage, killed himself? Why was the law changed to allow such entitlements in the first place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9865ca092bd4d60b11afcc4255f89d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I noted in the New Zealand Herald that Jan Molenaar\u2019s partner got $10,000 for his\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53ab83ae7ac441eb43739e244c79c29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister. I say to the Labour front bench\u2014on this occasion it was the Labour front bench\u2014that I simply cannot hear the Minister\u2019s answer. Those members may have their views about the question, but we must be able to hear the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b2bc6111df4f25b92b3c35ebd0df36\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I noted in the New Zealand Herald that Jan Molenaar\u2019s partner got $10,000 in compensation from the Accident Compensation Corporation. Although I have sympathy for any person who loses a loved one, the injustice is that every day many law-abiding New Zealanders die of cancer, heart disease, and other illnesses, but their families get nothing. This entitlement extension arose from changes made by the Labour Government in 2008, but that Government made no provision to budget for it; it made no provision to increase the levies to fund those extensions of entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228adf92c276324a0ca7917803515e2e11\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not time for the Minister to admit major mistakes in how he has dealt with both his accident compensation and emissions trading scheme responsibilities, or will he try to brush off New Zealanders\u2019 being stopped from getting a hearing aid, and the money being given to lawyers instead, as inconsequential, as he has tried to do with his emissions trading scheme fiasco? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d7a723ade084d2883c43b67398f20c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I note that in states of Australia\u2014where I note there are Labor administrations\u2014there is a threshold for entitlements to hearing aids. I note that is also the case in the UK, where there is a Labour Government. It is for the select committee to carefully consider submissions. Talking about mistakes, I am yet to hear an apology from Maryan Street or Labour for its leaving huge losses, and for breaching the Public Finance Act in not disclosing the extent to which accident compensation was in financial difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfdd1a50bdc94a78b2c4adef7c29ce9a\u0022\u003EPig Farming\u2014Code of Welfare\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a912e85efe4423b862ef7d62d461af\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by his statement of 20 May 2009 \u201CI would like to be able to issue a new code of welfare for pigs by the end of this year\u201D; and is he confident this will be achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022460b9c063e284387909de0bbafca309b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460b9c063e284387909de0bbafca309b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am confident. The National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee is on course to release the code at some stage next month. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226645594bee8249a2b257133bedf0e571\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I very carefully worded my question to say \u201Cto issue a new code of welfare\u201D. All that the Minister talked about was issuing a code for consultation. It will take another 6 months to get the new code. That was the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24380de924f40dfa0dd9eea9091e5d2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is a limit to how much I can judge the quality of Ministers\u2019 answers. From my hearing of the Minister\u2019s answer he said, in response to the member\u2019s question, \u201Cyes\u201D. If she is not convinced that his \u201Cyes\u201D was exactly the \u201Cyes\u201D she was after, my advice to her would be to drill further down into that with her supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317c510e6f724b839e945e216bb04af9\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is a lot of interest in whether the Minister\u2019s promise to have the code completed this year will be met. This is a completely different issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022def9e3f8abcf4e4d829bfdd6093962ea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can easily think of a supplementary question, following the Minister\u2019s answer, that would assist the member to get exactly the information she wants. I cannot, for the life of me, work out why she does not ask that question. The member has a supplementary question available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255c45ca5fb7d4217b0ca859121e2673b\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders believe that this Government is serious about animal welfare, when the Minister cannot even keep his promise to have the pig code completely reviewed and a new one issued by the end of this year, with the result that 20,000 sows will spend their Christmas locked up in cages where they cannot turn round?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7952aa30f2a438baae472fc606eaffa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have, on many occasions, patiently tried to explain to the member that there is a process under the Act by which the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee develops the code and releases it for submission, and once the submissions have been heard the committee finalises the code and presents it to me. That is the law that must be adhered to. I am not about to ride roughshod over that law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196f48eada2b45cebe9652ff2f644f58\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to table a document, because I think it is in the public interest. It is a press release, and it is where\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9152cf5323404b80bc1d790dda6a99\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: From what publication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b34e3d3780414b739225e1bf354ee89c\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: It is from the New Zealand Herald of 10 November 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224973ece7e6b4c37b66d1d66c846f4f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume her seat. That is totally contrary to the ruling I made just a few days ago. The document is from a mainstream newspaper of recent days, and therefore I will not be seeking leave. The member will not use the point of order process to try to make her political point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7defb7360184f5da7f0c60066f22804\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, does your ruling apply even when one believes that the article contains very significant information that contradicts what the Minister has just said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f4a7fbaf604dfa857eac6e8b19a251\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The reason why the ruling was made is that articles from the New Zealand Herald are readily available to members. If members are interested in this matter, I am sure they will have followed it through the New Zealand Herald.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a623d6e67554ac49c95f0bb660d511e\u0022\u003EPassports\u2014Introduction of New E-passports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346ea96424af4895ab99b1ee1e1f2eb9\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Why is the Government introducing a new style of passport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00228cd9eaedd851420da203fdc8c5245374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cd9eaedd851420da203fdc8c5245374\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E We need to regularly update our passport, to keep up with new technology and keep ahead of fraudsters. This new passport has more than 50 new security features, which makes it harder to forge. It also has a new design and artwork that tells the story of New Zealand\u2019s history, through the themes of navigation and travel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231c1e8f587e4fa6a263e9c80d5b353f\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction has he had from the public to the new e-passport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229bb420bbceb49a0a9793967c413ae96\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I am very pleased with the feedback we have had on this new passport. People seem to like the new design, which now has a unique New Zealand flavour about it. Every page has different artwork on it, which makes it harder to forge. Indeed, I am very pleased that we have managed to keep the price of the new passport the same, at $150.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ed74a929b00495f83a12391a2c05e6c\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220685737b14cb451c87fe6260ecd56331\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022793e6d9026d646fb81b6f87982f36dc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022793e6d9026d646fb81b6f87982f36dc7\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the second reading and passing through its remaining stages of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill; the introduction and passing of a Government bill; the passing through their remaining stages of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill, and the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill, and any bills into which any of those bills may be divided; the introduction and passing of a Government bill; and the passing through of their remaining stages of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill, the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill, and the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, and any bills into which any of those bills may be divided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis is a time of year when the legislative programme starts to cramp up quite considerably. There are a number of crucial dates that the Government needs to have legislation aligned for; the first of these is 1 January next year. In fact, if the emissions trading scheme amendment is not passed in good time, then the current emissions trading scheme provisions will prevail. We believe they would be bad for the economy. Therefore, we are making the amendments today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other bills, in some cases, deal with the sorts of general arrangements that the prison service may have to make over the Christmas period, and also with the way it might progress in the long term. Getting clarity about that will be useful. The Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill deals with issues like pensions, superannuation rates, and various other things, and it is important that the House also deals with that bill well before the questioned time. No one, I am sure, will be surprised that the Government wishes to put in place legislation that makes it clear that the Remuneration Authority can take consideration of the general economic conditions when it is making its determinations. The Biosecurity Amendment Bill is a bill that should be passed in a timely fashion, in order that we can further protect New Zealand\u2019s borders. For those reasons, the Government has taken urgency today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b2a932c061f4b82bddd545e80261e9e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8375d3dbc904498b91480620e9053dc\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022935f7f43f5874d8a9975bb03aa074268\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9e8933a845447e1837d606b1b6c407b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9e8933a845447e1837d606b1b6c407b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be question time at 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 November and Thursday, 26 November, and for questions to be lodged in the normal manner, pursuant to Standing Order 372.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a61f2972644a03a7ac3f15a7983143\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbfc1c5948e946e0b526acf012233cc4\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002204e31972988e4f4091b7090bde6a6593\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d6605ca17a43a1b2895b71adce622a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d6605ca17a43a1b2895b71adce622a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that for the Committee stage of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill members have unlimited numbers of speeches of 5 minutes each but no more than two consecutive speeches on each part or provision in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa051688e7a64cd9aab37f4b372c2afe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f02cdd788c264ac5ba7be3ffe911c48a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f02cdd788c264ac5ba7be3ffe911c48a\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have deliberately waited until this point to raise this point of order with you. Ordinarily, I would have raised it at question time, but I did not want you to think we were trying to delay matters. My point goes to the interaction you have with other presiding officers when we are in urgency and considering a big bill, as we will be during the Committee of the whole House stage, where there are substantial Supplementary Order Papers that have not had the chance for select committee scrutiny, or for a decent amount of time for the Opposition to look at them, propose amendments, and line them up with the existing bill if there is no revised-tracked version of the bill. I inquire, Mr Speaker, as to your liaison with the three members who service the Committee of the whole House, to ensure that the Opposition gets a fair run to be able to speak in the Committee stage on those parts, given that they have been so heavily amended and there has been no chance for scrutiny before that. I am seeking your protection for the minority, in that respect, and signalling that to you at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022920a65f7cfd541249f1b624f5c3d856f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022920a65f7cfd541249f1b624f5c3d856f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E With all respect to the point of order that my colleague has just raised, I think we have just agreed that there not be a limit to the number of speeches that members can make in Committee. Therefore, of course, any concerns that he might have about closure disappear at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002249a451e1f264409a9efb398c065f587d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249a451e1f264409a9efb398c065f587d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the point the honourable members have made, and I think it is incumbent on the presiding officers to make sure that on important legislation such as this, the debate is thoroughly heard. The honourable member also makes a perfectly valid point that where there are significant changes to the bill, and where there are significant numbers of Supplementary Order Papers, then there is obviously a need to make sure that those are properly considered and debated by the Committee. I think that the leave that the House has just given should give some comfort to members that reasonable debate will be enabled on these important measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022028006f3e2a141298a1014ef34f24cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028006f3e2a141298a1014ef34f24cac\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is worthwhile for the House to note that this morning I provided copies of the Supplementary Order Papers\u2014both from me and from the M\u0101ori Party\u2014and a briefing with officials to all members of the House in order to ensure that they could be informed on those events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556cf1569bf04920bb439dfb3cbf5934\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That action is appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d2570870d0b43b795b041a8115a1f96\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebd6a59416d44d92ad120b1b6abef17e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebd6a59416d44d92ad120b1b6abef17e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill is about implementing for New Zealand a workable, affordable emissions trading scheme, which will enable New Zealand to make progress on the hugely complex and difficult issues that confront all nations over climate change. The revised emissions trading scheme is consistent with National\u2019s pre-election commitments. It will align our scheme more closely with Australia\u2019s. It will provide incentives for industry to reduce emissions without encouraging an exodus overseas of industry and its skilled staff. It will amend the scheme so that households, farms, and businesses will not be funding multibillion dollar windfall gains to the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn broad terms, this bill is about New Zealand doing its fair share rather than taking a position that had New Zealand way out ahead of any other country. I am very pleased to have been able to work with the M\u0101ori Party to secure an agreement that ensures it can join us in supporting this bill. The agreement reached with the M\u0101ori Party strikes the right balance between protecting the future of our economy and protecting our environment. The revised emissions trading scheme will be good both for iwi and for New Zealand as a whole. It will halve the initial cost increases of the scheme for households, and it is workable for business while ensuring that New Zealand does its fair share to combat climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESome people are questioning the merits of the Government\u2019s ambition to try to pass, with the support of the M\u0101ori and United Future parties, our amendments by Christmas. However, if the bill is not passed, the existing scheme comes into effect on 1 January. This would increase power prices from that date by 10 percent, and it would put $400 million a year on to the costs on industry, without allocation plans. There are also a number of serious errors in the existing legislation that would have cost New Zealanders jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill makes a number of important changes to the scheme. Firstly, it makes critical adjustments to entry dates. Under the bill the industrial, energy, and transport sectors will enter the emissions trading scheme on 1 July next year, and agriculture will enter the scheme in 2015. There will be a transition phase for the first 2\u00BD years, with a half obligation and a fixed-price option of $25 a tonne. These changes will halve the increase for electricity and fuel for both consumers and business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to support for trade-exposed emissions-intensive industry and the agriculture sector. It is broadly accepted that without these measures all we would do is export emissions-intensive industries offshore, which would cost New Zealanders jobs and result in the emissions occurring from some other country. The first change is that a high and medium-intensity threshold is specified. Secondly, the allocations will be based on an industry-average basis, not just on 2005 levels. This will ensure that we do not reward those with higher emissions and punish those who invested early in improving their efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThirdly, the allocations will be production-based. If companies and farmers cut their production, their allocations will drop; if their production grows, their allocations will increase. This is about the very important issue confronting all nations designing an emissions trading scheme, and that is the issue of leakage. This Government is not about exporting jobs offshore; we are about incentivising more efficient production here in New Zealand. Fourthly, the phase-out of support after 2013 is being changed. The existing scheme leaves it flat, out to 2018, and then reduces it at 8 percent per year. This bill provides for a reduction in that allocation support of 1.3 percent per annum, though I think it is very important to note that this will be reviewed each 5 years, and, as I said in the House earlier, the broad principle that it should apply to that phase-out rate is that it is similar to our trading partners. Finally, we have introduced flexibility to the point of obligation in the agricultural sector, commencing at processor level with the option to move it to the farm gate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes further technical changes to make the scheme more workable. A good example is removing the liability associated with nitrogen curing of cabling, which would have actually cost New Zealanders their jobs in places like New Plymouth if we had left the existing scheme in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill was referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It was my preference to refer it to the special climate change committee, but members opposite objected to that. We then agreed with them that we would send it to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and as a sign of just how much bad faith there is from members opposite they then voted against the motion for it to go to that committee. The committee received 379 written submissions on the bill, and heard a total of 125 oral submissions. It is disappointing that the committee was unable to reach agreement on amendments to the bill, because there was actually very broad agreement on many of the changes contained in the amendments to make this bill work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Government will be putting forward Supplementary Order Paper 98 to address a number of the issues that arose from the submissions and from the legal review by officials. As part of the agreement reached with the M\u0101ori Party, the M\u0101ori Party will be putting forward an amendment that recognises the Treaty of Waitangi. This provision will specifically set out the ongoing decisions on which the Government or Crown has an obligation to consult with M\u0101ori. Most of the changes contained in the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper are refinements of policies that are already in the bill, or simply technical amendments. In relation to pre-1990 forestry, amendments are made so that changes in the legal title after 2002 do not unfairly disadvantage landowners when beneficial ownership has not changed. Without these changes, some forest owners might unfairly receive a lower allocation. We have also clarified that, subject to clear criteria, forest owners managing wilding pines from planted source should be eligible to apply for a tree weed exemption. This will help to ensure that important efforts to control tree weeds in a number of areas like the Marlborough Sounds and in Southland are not disadvantaged by the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn addition, the Government has also made a decision to exclude the combustion of solid biofuels from the emissions trading scheme. Given that this is a very small source of emissions, and given the Government\u2019s commitment to encourage fuel switching in this area, we have made a pragmatic decision to exclude emissions from this local-cost clean energy source from the emissions trading scheme. The cost of that provision is very small and the emissions are approximately 25,000 tonnes per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 98 provides for the exclusion of solid biofuels from the emissions trading scheme. That Government Supplementary Order Paper also contains a number of technical changes in response to submissions. For example, in response to concerns regarding the earlier date of entry for liquid fuels, a shorter registration period has been provided for large users of such fuels. A number of further amendments are included in the Supplementary Order Paper to improve the effective operation of the bill, but they do not make any substantive policy changes to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI note that in the United States Congress there is a vigorous debate about putting in place an emissions trading scheme, and I note that the same thing is going on across the Tasman in Australia. In every one of those countries the issue has been fractious, it has been divisive, and it has been hotly debated. That is proper: this legislation is probably the most significant change and reform, of a financial nature, since the introduction of GST. But I note that there were public submissions in 2007, there was a select committee process in 2008, there was another inquiry in 2009, and there have been four rounds of submissions. On an issue like climate change there comes a point where it is important to make progress, and in my view this bill does a very good job of balancing New Zealand\u2019s environmental and economic interests while ensuring that we do our fair share as a responsible country around this huge challenge of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022704f76b4e93b4d0b8df53f8c0c9d1668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022704f76b4e93b4d0b8df53f8c0c9d1668\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has made a mockery of Parliament\u2019s processes by the way it is dealing with the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The amendment itself is flawed on multiple levels. It will make us poorer, our economy weaker, and our emissions increase. The tragedy is that none of that needed to happen. We could have instead achieved something enduring through good-faith discussions, but that is not something the Minister for Climate Change Issues is capable of. By the end of this week every part of Parliament\u2019s consideration of this bill will have been rushed and inadequate, particularly given the immense economic, social, and environmental outcomes at stake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAt the Finance and Expenditure Committee, submitters, experts, and officials were all given impossibly abbreviated time frames in which to contribute effectively. The committee was given less than 2 months to scrutinise extremely substantial amendments and to consider 379 written submissions. Oral submitters were given only 10 minutes to speak\u2014if they could do so, given the short notice they were provided with. Our independent expert, Dr Suzi Kerr, was not able to provide information until the final day of deliberation. As such, her advice was not able to be incorporated into departmental reports, which were likewise unable to be provided until the final couple of days of deliberation. The Parliamentary Counsel Office could provide only an untested draft of revision-tracked amendments on the day of deliberation itself. There was a fundamental lack of robust supporting information available to assist the committee and submitters in evaluating the rationale for, and costs associated with, the amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe bill was roundly and publicly condemned by Treasury. Treasury said that the level and quality of the analysis available were just not up to the significance of the proposals, and that the analysis did not provide an adequate basis for informed decision-making. Treasury is right: there is no analysis of what drives the key changes in this legislation, and, throughout, the Minister has obstructed attempts to obtain background information that might assist the committee or the public to assess the bill\u2014just like his selective quoting of documents in question time today. This includes key documents such as Treasury\u2019s long-term analysis of fiscal costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe committee and submitters were completely unable to scrutinise the forthcoming amendments foreshadowed prior to the first reading of the bill; they comprise 121 pages, and were tabled in the House at 2 o\u2019clock today. They include changes that were settled on only yesterday in exchange for the support of the M\u0101ori Party\u2014apparently, as the proxy for the Iwi Leadership Group. The impacts, fiscal and otherwise, of these backroom deals will never receive proper parliamentary scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EHow can the process I have described give anyone confidence in the end-policy outcome? Given the shambolic process that the bill has been subjected to, it is no surprise to find that it is fundamentally flawed, but the magnitude of the policy incoherence is breathtaking on many different levels. It will make New Zealanders poorer, our economy weaker, and our emissions higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe worst area of the bill concerns the level, duration, and model of the allocation of units\u2014in other words, the way that it gives emitters ongoing rights to pollute. The bill puts in place an uncapped, intensity-based allocation model. This allows the overall level of allocation, and therefore emissions themselves, to actually increase. In other words, there is no cap in this \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme. The lack of a cap obviates the whole point of an emissions trading scheme, which is to reduce emissions over time at least cost. It should do this by allowing the trading of permits under a cap, and then reducing the cap over time. If production of emissions-intensive trade-exposed activities increases by more than 1.3 percent a year, as it almost certainly will in many years, then absolute levels of allocation will actually increase. So, therefore, will emissions. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment rightly advised us that a cap is vital to create the right incentives to reduce fiscal risk, and to create policy certainty for business. The intensity-based nature of the allocation model does not support emissions reductions appropriately, and it does not provide the incentive of the full emissions price at the margin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe level and duration of allocation here is overly generous and too slow. Both the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and the independent expert, Dr Kerr, say this. The phase-out rate of 1.3 percent for at least 80 years defies any common-sense notion of transition, and, as with any protection or subsidy, future Governments will find it very difficult to reduce previously promised protection levels. The bill makes it very difficult to alter levels of allocation, with additional 5-yearly reviews following any change recommended. If levels of allocation are no longer appropriate, surely they should be altered promptly. It is unfair to the taxpayer to do otherwise. Indeed, the Institute of Policy Studies sums up this point up. It told the select committee: \u201Cthe bill [is] designed more to tie future Governments\u2019 hands with red tape rather than to enable flexible and effective policy \u2026\u201D. Also problematic is the proposed transitional period, which provides a half-obligation and a fixed $25 per tonne price to the energy, transport, and industrial processes sectors until the end of 2012. This shifts more than half the costs of emissions until 2012 from the polluter to the taxpayer, and reduces incentives for appropriate levels of emissions-reducing investment and behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EA further concern is the delay in the inclusion of agriculture from 2013 to 2015. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment notes \u201Cthere is insufficient evidence to justify delaying the entry of agriculture to the [ETS].\u201D It will keep the costs of emissions with the taxpayer until 2015, and will delay appropriate levels of emissions-reducing investment and behaviour in this sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESo why are these changes being made? In reading through the regulatory impact statement it appears that the primary official reason is to prevent \u201Ccarbon leakage\u201D, especially to Australia. And there is not much more analysis than that. Just how much economic activity will move in the absence of this bill? How many jobs would be lost? How does the value of these losses compare with the value of the subsidies provided? None of this most basic information has been made available. It may exist; it may have been withheld by the Minister, along with much other vital information. We, as a Parliament, will never know. Treasury itself concluded that there is no clear analytical basis to align with the currently proposed Australian Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, given New Zealand\u2019s and Australia\u2019s unique emissions profiles and industrial structures. The fact that the Australian scheme is still proposed only and could be subject to further revision\u2014assuming that it survives the Liberal Party caucus room in 3 or 4 minutes, when its meeting finishes\u2014only adds to the incoherence of the proposal to harmonise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EDr Suzi Kerr advises that free allocation should be phased out relatively quickly, irrespective of our competitors\u2019 behaviours. She says that this is for the same reasons that we do not subsidise agriculture, even though the US and the EU still do. In her words: \u201CThe benefits to the protected activities are vastly outweighed by the costs to the economy as a whole.\u201D She considers that the phase-out of free allocation in the current Act, at 8 percent ending at 2030, was probably already too slow on economic grounds. It is proposed to be replaced by a phase-out of allocation at 1.3 percent for the next 80 years. This bill would make highly undesirable changes in order to achieve objectives that Treasury, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, a leading independent expert, and others tell us are without any clear analytical basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe tragedy here is that Parliament could instead be assembled today to debate a politically sustainable scheme. It is a matter of public record that early this year Labour offered talks to National as to what amendments might be needed to reach enduring certainty over climate change policy. When National walked out on those negotiations in favour of advancing the amendments contained in the bill, there were only three issues outstanding. The first was the entry date of agriculture; the second was the transition period, half-obligation, and fixed price; and the third was the allocation model, level, and phase-out rate. We were prepared to compromise on these in order to achieve an enduring emissions trading scheme. We would likely have agreed to a compromise agriculture entry date of 2014. We would likely have accepted the transitional price cap and half-obligation. We would likely have accepted an intensity-based allocation within a cap, subject to reasonable phase-out rules. All were less than ideal compromises but we were prepared to make them in the interests of achieving an enduring emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe negotiated in good faith and we could see no reason for National not to do so, as it appeared that the only significant issue for it to compromise on was the issue of the cap on free allocation in agriculture. If National had done that, an enduring and effective emissions trading scheme could have been achieved. We forgot whom we were dealing with. Instead, we have a bill that will make New Zealanders poorer, our economy weaker, and our emissions higher. If Parliament passes the bill in anything like its current form, a priority for Labour will be its repeal and its replacement with legislation providing for a robust emissions trading scheme and fit-for-purpose complementary measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022837b107009834388846b8e46eeb430d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837b107009834388846b8e46eeb430d6\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I thank members for the applause! I am speaking on the second reading of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I am the chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which the bill was referred to. The Minister for Climate Change Issues noted that the original preference was to send it to a specialised committee or to renew the previous climate change committee. But having said that, I tell the Minister that the committee welcomed it with open arms when it arrived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIt would be courteous and correct of me to acknowledge the members of the committee. The process we went through was somewhat unusual\u2014but I have been here for only 4 years. On the whole, with some exceptions, the contribution of members was valued, of course. I particularly acknowledge the officials, advisers, and anyone and everyone who participated in getting the bill at least to its second reading. Politics aside, there were some tensions, stresses, and strains around the bill. Sometimes I think the officials, in some of the goings-on, very unfairly bore the brunt of some members\u2019 frustrations. I need to give my personal thanks to the officials for their work. Actually, some of them are almost old friends, because this was the third time that many of them had sat down at the end of a committee table to look at the emissions trading scheme. The Minister alluded to the 2007 committee and the review committee earlier this year. We must have had well over 1,500 submissions on the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee normally operates quite well. Members acknowledge their policy positions, there is good, robust debate, and we go on quite well. I reiterate my personal aim, and what I like to uphold, which is that all members at all times treat all people as they themselves would like to be treated: with respect. Acknowledging the various positions, I say that of course there is going to be disagreement. I acknowledge some members\u2019 frustration at the tight time frame for the bill, but the Minister in his first reading speech explained why that was. It was always a given that the bill would come back to the House on 16 November or earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of comment about the process of the bill as it went through the select committee. Some of the comment in the media has been criticism of me and of the committee. I have remained silent on that criticism, because some of the allegations were made in the committee, and I will not go outside of that. But, in terms of some of the points that were raised, I was on the other two committees, and a 5-minute submission time for many speakers was quite the norm. I recall that in 2007 four submitters had 15 minutes to share amongst themselves, that submitters were grouped, etc. I want to point that out, because some of the criticism of the process and of our committee is not quite fair. Sure, there is politics involved, but I do not think the criticism is quite fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI point out that many members were actually asked for lists of those whom they thought the committee should hear. Virtually without fail those names were asked to submit, without problem. At no time did this chair actually say that all submissions should be heard on one night in a period of 5 hours\u2014which has been alleged, I think. That was what was available to us in our first opportunity to hear submitters, to hear evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI also point out to some of those who have criticised the process\u2014knowing that the timetable for the bill was always tight, knowing that November 16 was always the report-back date\u2014that something that tightened the process was that some members wanted to spend some time away from these precincts. It is fair enough for members to want to spend time with their families, and I encourage that at all times. I do not disregard it, at all; I think it is quite fair. But we have to acknowledge that all the decisions are decisions of the committee. Perhaps some wanted to go on holiday. To criticise me for an allegedly fast process or an abuse of process, when members were choosing not to be in the precincts in order to go on holiday, is somewhat cute. I think it is very curious that some of those members have chosen to criticise me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ETo those who wanted to hear absolutely every submitter, I say that I find it somewhat curious that during the proceedings some members complained about the committee hearing so many submitters, when earlier they had asked to hear every single submitter. As was noted earlier, all submitters have a right to be heard, but many wrote submissions. Some submissions, in fact, had party crests on the bottom of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMembers will note from the commentary that the committee came out 6 all; it was not able to reach a majority. It is disappointing that the committee could not get to the stage where technical amendments to the existing scheme were able to be passed, or issues that I think the whole committee generally agreed on. I acknowledge that there is a Supplementary Order Paper covering tree weeds, such as wilding pines, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI have two points. I have a quick note for my friends in the ACT Party. They believe in the market, they believe in market instruments, they believe in supply meeting demand, and I know and acknowledge that some of them do not think that climate change is going on, do not believe in the science, etc. That is absolutely fine, but the point I raise is that if that is correct, if that turns out to be true, then the price of carbon units will actually be zip\u2014zero. If it turns out not to be correct that human-induced climate change is going on, the price of carbon\u2014which everyone talks about right now at being $25 or $50 a tonne\u2014would fall to zero, and the scheme would fall apart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will touch on the mythical figure of $110 billion, which I am sure members will speak to over the next wee while. It was an interesting time in the committee, to be fair, when that misunderstanding, shall we say, came about. The bottom line is that there is no such amount as $110 billion; the amount is actually $50 billion to $55 billion. But let us turn it on its head and take the number that members on the other side are talking about. What they are saying is that they are very disappointed that their original scheme would have taken $110 billion out of the economy; that is what they are saying. This scheme is not taking out $110 billion. It is simple compounding up. It is simple maths. I think those members actually acknowledge that, although I think they need to sit down with their leader and discuss it, because he raised the point again today. It is fair enough to have a discussion of the $50 billion to $55 billion amount, even though it is full of variables for Africa, but the figure of $110 billion is a mythical number. It is used just because it sounds big. For anyone in this debate to use that figure dilutes and undermines his or her integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill set outs and follows the principles that National laid out before the electorate before the election last year. The electorate endorsed those policies and principles. Most of this bill concerns technical amendments and small fix-ups, which I think the other side generally acknowledges, to the existing legislation. The substantive issues are emissions intensity without a cap, and an open or closed economy. I look forward to further debate on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f89cfcb5a2ef4a8f92ade416ec306ee5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f89cfcb5a2ef4a8f92ade416ec306ee5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CSometimes a picture paints a thousand words\u201D is the saying, and this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill is no exception to that. There have been some wonderful cartoons in the paper in the last few weeks on this issue. My particular favourite is one of Tom Scott\u2019s a few weeks ago. In it there is a great big, very overweight industrialist sitting in very plush surroundings in his gentlemen\u2019s club. He is saying to himself, in the little bubble of his speech: \u201COh, New Zealand is a great country\u2014all those punters paying for my greenhouse gas emissions.\u201D Then he looks around at the waiter, who is over in the corner and is drawn like Manuel out of Fawlty Towers, and he says \u201CWaiter, another gin and tonic please, and make sure it is an organic lemon. We all have to do our bit for the environment.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWell, that is it exactly, is it not? What has happened here is that the punters out there, the taxpayers, the mums and dads and their children, are to pay for the emissions of the big emitters. They are to pay $50 billion more for emissions under this new scheme than under the current one. The effect of that by 2050 is that Government debt will go up by $110 billion. That is what Treasury says, and it is correct: $50 billion excluding interest; $110 billion including interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThese numbers are so astronomically large that people find them hard to comprehend, but there is a very good comparison to be made between the long-term effects of this policy and those of some of the mistakes that have been made by earlier National Governments that have populated this place. One of those mistake was introducing supplementary minimum prices. There was a fiction in New Zealand that supplementary minimum prices were affordable, that the subsidy to the agriculture sector could be sustained, and that New Zealand would be wealthier as a consequence of that subsidy to agriculture. Of course, we all know how that ended. It ended in tears, because the country could not afford it. Government debt got too high, and, as a consequence, the subsidy was withdrawn. That is what will eventually happen under this new scheme in agriculture; it has to, because this is unsustainable, with $50 billion of emission allocation rights and $110 billion of debt. Farm prices will go down by a large amount, and a lot of people who have invested their money in the intervening period will lose money, because they have been given the wrong signal by the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClimate change is a very, very serious problem, but at its heart the way to cure it is obvious. There is only one solution: we have to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. We sometimes lose sight of that. We know that the pricing of emissions is absolutely fundamental to causing businesses to have a financial interest in reducing emissions. Otherwise, it is in their financial interest to make as much money as they can by increasing emissions. So the objective of an emissions trading scheme, or of a carbon tax if one goes down that route, is to reduce emissions by giving a financial incentive to do so to those that produce the emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have heard the Government try to justify its changes by saying it is aligning the scheme with Australia\u2019s. Well, the first reality is that it is not in our interest to do so. Australia\u2019s economy is fundamentally different from New Zealand\u2019s when it comes to emissions. More than half of Australia\u2019s emissions come from coal; half of our emissions come from agriculture. Would it make sense for the Australian emissions trading scheme, which is called the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, to exclude coal? Of course it would not. Has it excluded coal? No, it has not. Should New Zealand exclude agriculture because we would be aligning ourselves with Australia? That is a ridiculous suggestion. It is as stupid for New Zealand to exclude agriculture as it would be stupid for Australia to exclude coal. The suggestion that we should align our scheme with Australia\u2019s makes no sense. And anyway, we are not doing that, because eventually we are including agriculture. We are just not doing it properly, and we are doing it too late. So we are not having a real alignment with Australia, but the alignment that we are having is not in our interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI am not the only one who says that. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has said it. The specialist adviser to the Finance and Expenditure Committee said it. I want to mention her\u2014Dr Suzi Kerr. Where is Dr Suzi Kerr at the moment? She is a world expert. She is currently a visiting professor of economics at Stanford University in the United States, one of the United States\u2019 leading universities, and, indeed, one of the leading universities in the world. Dr Suzi Kerr from New Zealand is currently lecturing there in emissions pricing. We had the benefit of one of the world\u2019s leading experts on emissions pricing giving advice to the select committee. Could we take into account her advice properly? No, because the process was so fast that we got her advice only on the last day. Notwithstanding the fact that on the last day it turned out that the cost, in terms of Government debt, had gone up to $110 billion, the National Government would still not slow down the process to enable us to properly consider the implications of that. So we could not consider Dr Kerr\u2019s advice properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDr Kerr said the phase-out under the existing scheme, which phases out the free allocation to major industries at 8 percent per annum, was, if anything, too slow and would lead to economically inefficient outcomes for our economy. So what do members think she thought of a 1.3 percent abatement of free allocations, which is so slow as to virtually not happen? She thought that it was nonsense. She thought that it would make New Zealand poorer, not wealthier. She thought that we were setting up a system that will encourage an increase in emissions in New Zealand rather than a decrease\u2014a scheme that will do the opposite of what it is meant to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to mention also that the media are on to it. Editorials, from Auckland to the bottom of New Zealand, are now saying that the proposed changes to the scheme are wrong. So are the commentators. We have heard the borax being poked at some of New Zealand\u2019s leading commentators. We have had criticisms of Brian Fallow today; we have had people writing off Rod Oram as a sycophant or non-entity. In addition to those people, we have had Richard Long, former chief of staff for National, being highly critical of the changes. He has been written off. We have had Fran O\u2019Sullivan being very critical of what is being done, and no doubt National will write off her criticisms, as well. That is on top of Treasury criticising the changes, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment criticising them, and the Ministry of Economic Development, another arm of the Government, saying the phase-out of the free allocation is far too slow and not warranted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EStill the Government proceeds remorselessly on. As a consequence, our country will get poorer. Our economy will not adjust. We will not take advantage of the opportunities that will arise for those who move into this new world with appropriate speed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on the deal that has been done with the M\u0101ori Party. Only a matter of months ago the M\u0101ori Party said the existing emissions trading scheme was too weak, and, if anything, it should be strengthened, and it would prefer to go down a carbon tax route rather than an emissions trading route. The M\u0101ori Party is here today to vote for the opposite of that. It is voting for an emissions trading scheme that no longer works, that will increase emissions, and that does the opposite of what Rahui Katene, in her minority report, said at the Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee some months ago should not be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFurther than that, a fundamental principle is being breached by the deal that is being done. The M\u0101ori Party and the National Government might like to characterise some of the criticisms that are coming from lots of people as coming from a race agenda. It is not. Once people receive a Treaty settlement, so long as there has been no withholding of information and no misrepresentation by the Crown, then those assets are in the same position as any other assets owned by any other group in New Zealand. The owners must be bound by the same laws, whether it is the Resource Management Act, the Income Tax Act, or the emissions trading scheme legislation. There is no basis for having separate rules. The New Zealand Herald put it very well in its editorial, saying there are things that we do not know when we enter into a Treaty settlement; there is an upside and there is a downside. It pointed out that at the time of the Treaty settlement with Ng\u0101i Tahu, the boom in prices that would be occasioned by the free-trade agreement with China had not been thought of. Should the Crown go back and take value off Ng\u0101i Tahu as a consequence of not predicting that, or not disclosing that? Of course it should not. Conversely, Ng\u0101i Tahu should not expect to receive some additional compensation over and above what is being paid to other owners in society for emissions pricing. There is no justification for that. It actually undermines the principle of full and final settlement, and it creates different asset classes in New Zealand according to the ethnicity of their owners, which is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002202c9b2e6547f49f8959557734cd59b33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202c9b2e6547f49f8959557734cd59b33\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak on the second reading of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. This bill is fundamentally about climate change, and it seems that not a day goes past when the evidence around climate change does not get more alarming. In fact, we would think that if we read the evidence and followed the debate around the science of climate change, then, if that was what drove us, we would become increasingly concerned and would want to make our response to climate change stronger and stronger over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EJust today, for example, when I was scanning the papers, I saw that the Antarctic ice sheet is melting faster than previously thought\u2014for example, the West Antarctic ice sheet is currently dumping about 132 billion tonnes of ice per year. One hundred and thirty-two billion tonnes of ice per year is being dumped by the West Antarctic ice sheet into the sea, which is more than we had previously thought. The East Antarctic ice sheet, which we thought might be accumulating ice because of the increased precipitation of snow on the surface, actually appears to be dumping about 57 billion tonnes of ice per year. We are losing that ice from the East Antarctic ice sheet. The reason why this is so significant is that these ice sheets have a dramatic impact on global sea levels. The West Antarctic ice sheet by itself would result in a 5-metre sea-level rise if it were to disintegrate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is against this background that we are considering a bill that will weaken New Zealand\u2019s response to climate change. It is really quite hard to fathom that in a world where the evidence that we are changing the planet itself is increasing and strengthening, and in which the science is becoming more and more compelling, the New Zealand Parliament looks as if it is passing a bill today that weakens the New Zealand Government\u2019s response to climate change. It is hard to fathom. People in future years will look back on this debate, scratch their heads, and wonder that at the very time when the evidence around the acceleration of human-caused climate change is gathering, and when we are in the run-up to perhaps the most important conference in the history of humankind\u2014the UN Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen\u2014the New Zealand Parliament should choose to weaken the response of the New Zealand Government and the New Zealand people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis is a time when we should be more concerned, because, of course, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had a very modest prediction about sea-level rise\u201418 to 59 centimetres by 2100\u2014but that was premised on the basis that we could not predict what would happen with the big ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica. But we know now that those ice sheets appear to be losing a lot more ice than we thought previously, and they appear to be warming more quickly. We would think that in the face of science and evidence, the New Zealand Parliament would look at the science, strengthen its response, and aim to have a more considered and stronger response on climate change. Instead, the bill in front of us today is a bill to weaken our response to climate change. It is a shameful day to be a member of the New Zealand Parliament and to watch the New Zealand Parliament passing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is important to remember that during the last Eemian period\u2014128,000 years ago\u2014greenhouse gas concentrations were at about the same level as they are today but sea levels were from 5 to 7 metres higher, because there is a lag in our system. There is a lag between the time we increase levels of greenhouse gases and the time we see sea levels rise. What we are looking at right now is an increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, but we are yet to see the full impact of that increase in terms of melting in Antarctica, sea-level rise, and more extreme weather events\u2014although already we have seen very significant extreme weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn the face of the fact that we know we have yet to see the full impact of climate change, the New Zealand Parliament\u2019s response\u2014and it would appear to be the New Zealand Government\u2019s response\u2014is to weaken the ability of the New Zealand economy to reduce its greenhouse emissions. In fact, we are introducing a system today where we take the \u201Ccap\u201D out of \u201Ccap and trade\u201D. Someone one day came up with the idea of \u201Ccap and trade\u201D as a way to cap emissions and then allow for the most economically efficient way to reduce those emissions under that cap. But the Government has decided today to take away the cap so that we do not have a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system any more, and to take away the fundamental driver of the price. Of course, the result is that the New Zealand economy will respond by increasing greenhouse emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand we have already increased greenhouse emissions very, very significantly. Our increases are in the order of 22 percent, or more, since 1990, and over the course of the previous Government, greenhouse emissions increased by about 14 percent. In spite of the Green Party\u2019s efforts to constantly call on that Government to address climate change, only towards the end of its term was that Government willing to address climate change to some degree. The emissions trading scheme that was brought in by Labour and the Greens in the last Parliament, which was not a perfect scheme but which made some progress towards introducing a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system, is the very scheme that we are dismantling today by taking away the cap in the \u201Ccap and trade\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is hard to get our heads around the idea that this is what human beings, who have spent many millions of years developing a consciousness and an ability to understand the world, would do. It is hard to comprehend that the majority of members in this House today are going to vote for a system that will increase New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions at a time when the science and the evidence around the impact of climate change is building all the time. It is in fact a suicide note. What this Parliament, and Parliaments in a similar situation all around the world, are doing is writing a collective suicide note to future generations. We all talk about what might happen in 2100, but there are children born today who will be alive in 2100, and they will look back and curse us. They will curse the members of this Parliament, and they will curse this Government for weakening our ability to reduce our greenhouse emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that will walk into negotiations in Copenhagen with the objective of weakening the global agreement there. That is what this is all about. That is why the Government wants to get this bill in place\u2014so it can walk into Copenhagen and try to undermine the agreement to reduce global greenhouse emissions. It is hard to get our heads around the idea that at a time when the evidence that we need to reduce our greenhouse emissions is becoming more compelling, a Government would bring a bill into the House that will increase our greenhouse emissions. It is hard to understand that human beings who so value their intelligence, their consciousness, their science, and the evidence would bring a bill into the New Zealand House of Representatives that will increase our greenhouse emissions\u2014which is what this bill does. It is a very hard thing to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere are ethical issues associated with what we are doing today. It is the wrong thing to do to future generations. It is the wrong thing to do to children, and to the people who will come after us. It is also an incredibly stupid thing to do from an economic point of view. If New Zealand wishes to be prosperous, it must make the transition to a low-carbon economy. There is no other form of prosperity for New Zealand in the future. To anyone who sits here and thinks that this will all go away\u2014which is, of course, what this bill hopes\u2014and who thinks that New Zealand can somehow have a prosperous future with a high-carbon or carbon-intensive economy, I say that there is no such thing. Either we have a low-carbon economy, which gives us the opportunity to have a prosperous economy, or we have a high-carbon economy, which means we will not be prosperous. This bill will lock in investments that lock in a high-carbon economy; there is no way that we can have a prosperous economy if we lock New Zealand into a carbon-intensive economy. But this bill locks in that high-carbon economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe can only hope that it is not too long before we get rid of this stupid bill. We can only hope that it is not too long before we have a carbon trading system that plays a part in putting a price on greenhouse emissions so that we can reduce our greenhouse emissions. That is the only way we can send a price signal through our economy in order to move it toward a low-carbon economy. We also need the complementary measures of State regulation and State incentives to reduce emissions. We also need all the education and individual action. But if we undermine the price signal, which is what this bill does, we undermine our ability to reduce our greenhouse emissions, and we lumber future generations with a huge debt and a huge increase in greenhouse emissions. It is a shameful bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002212968d82125041fb97576be9ad3db6f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212968d82125041fb97576be9ad3db6f3\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Let me be clear about a number of things. First up, we have a very, very good Government. Certainly, we have an excellent Government compared with the Government we had for the previous 9 years. But even a very good Government can make bad policy. Even a good Government can make bad policy, and with this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill we have a very good Government making atrocious policy. Not only do we have a very good Government making atrocious policy, but we also have a good Government following an atrocious process. The Ministers of this Government who are voting for this bill and for this process have to accept that responsibility, and so does every member of Parliament who is voting for this legislation today and confirming the process that has been followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me also make it plain that the ACT Party totally opposes having an emissions trading scheme for New Zealand. An emissions trading scheme for New Zealand will hike the costs to business, to farmers, and to hard-working New Zealanders right at the time when we can least afford it. There is no doubt about it: an emissions trading scheme will put up the cost of basic goods and services for ordinary New Zealand families. That is what this bill will do to New Zealanders, that is what an emissions trading scheme will do, and that is why the ACT Party is the only party prepared to stand up in this House to oppose having an emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFollowing the election we had a difficult situation with regard to the emissions trading scheme, because we had National committed to the emissions trading scheme and the ACT Party implacably opposed to it. We agreed to have a comprehensive review through a select committee. What we wanted\u2014in fact, what the select committee was supposed to do\u2014was to do the rational thing for the country: to look at the options and to provide the costs and the benefits. It never happened. To this day this Parliament and the public of New Zealand still have no idea of the cost of this scheme. They have no idea of the cost of an alternative, such as a low-level carbon tax, or indeed of the cost of having a simple delay for a couple of years. They know nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThen we discovered that the Government had done a deal with the M\u0101ori Party, in order to put the changes through the select committee that National wanted to make to Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182d288f45ef4ee9acc96b354b6be505\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a9d840c4e74809b501e16ea0931cf8\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was not disgraceful; what was disgraceful was what happened next. That was the true disgrace. At that point, on behalf of the ACT Party I said to the Prime Minister and National that we understood they did not have the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s vote on taking the legislation all the way through, and that if there was any difficulty with the vote they should come and talk to the ACT Party. I said that, yes, we opposed the emissions trading scheme, but that we were prepared to help the National Government for the good of the country and, indeed, we were even prepared to swallow a dead rat. We were prepared to swallow a dead rat in order to get a better result for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut National never ever came to the ACT Party in order to discuss the options for the reform or the delay of the emissions trading scheme. National made a decision to commit to the M\u0101ori Party and so to lose any negotiating power that it might have had. I accept that it is the prerogative of Nick Smith and the Prime Minister to do that. They are the ones with the votes. They are the leaders of this Parliament and this Government, but I say that the result was bad policy. It was atrocious policy and an atrocious process, and New Zealanders were sold out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat have we discovered? We have discovered that all of this had to be done in a great rush, ahead of the rest of the world, in order to be done before the talks in Copenhagen. We had to be ahead of every other country. We discovered today at question time that this deal with the Treaty clause in it was concluded, according to the Minister, only after 1 o\u2019clock yesterday, which was a couple of hours before it was announced. We know from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs that the deal was concluded only at 12 minutes past 3\u2014presumably that was when he was told that it had been accepted at Cabinet\u2014which was 18 minutes ahead of the time the deal was made public. The deal with these five iwi and with the Treaty clause will now be passed under urgency, with no proper parliamentary scrutiny and no public input. The deal was agreed to only yesterday, and it will be passed into law today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f518d770b4dc4483874b60a4c533f6a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d359e462b7704087a0a4d2adf00b4298\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, it will be passed into law tomorrow, but I say to Dr Smith that we are in urgency, thanks to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI will read that Treaty clause to members: \u201CIn order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi,\u201D. I challenge the Minister for Climate Change Issues and the M\u0101ori Party to stand up in this House and put on record in Parliament what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi are. If we are to have Parliament giving effect to something, then I think it is quite reasonable to ask what we are giving effect to, in this Parliament. We are not giving effect to the Treaty\u2014actually, if we were giving effect to the Treaty, then we would not be having an emissions trading scheme\u2014but we are giving effect to the principles of the Treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI remind the great National Party, our support party, of National\u2019s position in 2005. It is our job to remind National of its principles, its position, its philosophy, and its policy. Its policy in 2005 was that the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi were to be expunged from all legislation. Why? According to Dr Don Brash, who was the National leader at the time, the principles of the Treaty were undefined and unnecessary. This is what Don Brash said in 2005, an election year: \u201CThis process\u201D\u2014that is, the process of inserting the principles of the Treaty every which way\u2014\u201Cis becoming deeply corrupt, with some requirements for consultation resulting in substantial payments in a system that looks like nothing other than stand-over tactics.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI am sorry to say this, but the National Government, the Prime Minister, and the Minister for Climate Change Issues have allowed themselves to sell out their voters and their supporters by inserting in legislation the principles of the Treaty that they were opposed to and by cobbling together this deal in the last few minutes before going public. They are ramming through under urgency, with no parliamentary scrutiny or public input, a deal for consultation in order that the principles be given effect to, and for regulations down the track to be passed. I say that Don Brash was right when he said that this process is becoming deeply corrupt, with some requirements for consultation resulting in substantial payments in a system that looks like nothing other than stand-over tactics. I say \u201CShame on National and shame on the M\u0101ori Party.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022ede36a12c74b4ff79f9594a39432c45c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ede36a12c74b4ff79f9594a39432c45c\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E May I say it is a joy to work with a party that is not tied down in \u201CHide-bound\u201D ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn speaking to the announcement made yesterday of the proposals to reduce emissions in order to meet the Kyoto Protocol, Ng\u0101i Tahu kaiwhakahaere, Mark Solomon, made a key statement. He said: \u201CIt is a day where the ledger is made even.\u201D Mr Solomon was referring to the fact that relevant information was withheld from Ng\u0101i Tahu when they bought forestry land for conversion to farming. Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s case was that the Crown did not meet its information disclosure requirements of their Treaty settlement in respect of the likely impact of an emissions trading scheme on pre-1990 forest land. Similar issues were raised by Waikato-Tainui, Te Uri o Hau, Ng\u0101ti Awa, and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. Yesterday\u2019s announcement made the ledger even, in that it covers the cost of the loss the iwi will experience under the scheme. It was an announcement that recognised the constructive engagement that has taken place between the iwi and the Crown to try to address a situation in which they had been unknowingly disadvantaged. It was an announcement that reflected the generosity of spirit entered into between the Crown and the Treaty partner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe question of balance is an appropriate one to be considering as we debate the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill today. The M\u0101ori Party has worked relentlessly to try to achieve outcomes that can work in the best interests of the nation. As a nation dependent on a favourable climate for our heavy involvement in primary production, climate change represents a significant risk to the quality of our everyday life. Climate change will have profound implications for Aotearoa over the long term, and potentially significant levels of costs. So there is no dispute: collective responsibility for environmental and social outcomes is the only way to respond to climate change. The way in which we have been able to mobilise this collective effort is through compliance with the targets of the Kyoto Protocol. We know that there is no single piece of legislation that can be the catch-all, comprehensive answer to climate change. The real answers can only come from people as wh\u0101nau, communities, and enterprises deciding to change how we live and interact with the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill is only a small part of the change that is needed. But what is so important about this bill is that it aims to reduce the total greenhouse gas emissions by encouraging all New Zealanders to take responsibility. We have all known that New Zealand\u2019s emissions are increasing, with greenhouse gas emissions in 2007 about 22 percent higher than they were in 1990. In fact, if we did nothing at all to reduce our emissions, our total emissions could total well over 30 percent higher by 2012. The M\u0101ori Party believes that it is high time that we as a nation stopped the years of lobbying Parliament on how the emissions trading scheme should be structured, and focused on the real challenge of addressing our collective responsibilities for carbon emissions. The M\u0101ori Party is standing up for four outcomes that we believe are in the best interests of our people and the nation: our wh\u0101nau, our whenua, the Treaty of Waitangi, and the M\u0101ori economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI want to raise a concern about the criticism suggested by the Leader of the Opposition that the so-called special treatment of some tribes will do little to help M\u0101ori households. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, hap\u016B and iwi are built upon the very foundations of wh\u0101nau; there can be no iwi without wh\u0101nau. The key stakeholders for Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Porou, for example, are the descendants of Porourangi. As a descendant of Kai Tahu, I remind the House that the broad mission of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu is to promote and enhance the social, cultural, and economic well-being of Ng\u0101i Tahu wh\u0101nui. So when Mr Goff talks about preferential treatment or special deals for iwi, he needs to be very careful that he knows what he is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt has been very clear to us that paramount in the concerns of the iwi leadership has been the need to support M\u0101ori households. I read this morning the views of R\u0101wiri Te Whare, the General Manager of Te P\u016Bmautanga o Te Arawa. In referring to the attempts of some politicians to polarise the issue as a race-based one, R\u0101wiri Te Whare said: \u201CThe criticism is unhelpful and simplifies what is actually a complex issue. Iwi leaders do not seek special treatment for M\u0101ori, we are seeking fairness on a proposal that will have a disproportionate impact on our businesses\u2014and therefore our ability to assist to lift the social, cultural and economic aspirations of our people.\u201D The question of fairness, of balance, has been uppermost on our minds as we tried to negotiate concessions that would support our more vulnerable families along with our fledgling iwi enterprises in fishing, farming, and forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EA key win for all of our wh\u0101nau and all lower-income households is that they will be better supported to insulate their homes to decrease the cost of electricity. We also know that warmer homes mean better health outcomes and a better quality of life. Insulation leads to lower power costs and better health. Our priority was to ensure that the funding available gets to those homes most in need. So we are really thrilled that the new money, the additional $24 million we were able to negotiate, will mean that an extra 2,000 houses of community services card holders will be insulated every year from now up to 2013. We pushed hard for this, as well as halving petrol and power prices, in order to cushion the blow on low-income families. A major emphasis for the M\u0101ori Party was on doing all that we could to ensure our whenua will be sustainable and healthy for our mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe package includes a range of environmental outcomes, from working with iwi to invest in indigenous forestry to recognising the importance of biodiversity to all people, so that future generations inherit a country that is a better version of the clean, green Aotearoa we inhabit today. Our negotiations have been critical in recognising that iwi are the key drivers behind the M\u0101ori economy, which contributes some $16 billion to the economy of this nation. It is our view that any legislation passed in this country must support the M\u0101ori economy to reach its full potential. Our people are heavily involved in fishing, farming, and forestry, all of which are affected by the scheme. We worked hard to make sure that our people\u2019s businesses are not the hardest hit by the scheme, so that the outcomes are fair and our economy can grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, I want to bring to the House the significance of the Treaty of Waitangi to this debate. We entered negotiations understanding that the Treaty must be provided for in the scheme so that it is fair for our people, no matter what future changes are made along the way, and so that Treaty settlements are respected. The Treaty is about joint responsibility and working together. This bill reflects our role in responding to the shared challenge of climate change. The agreement allows for more Crown-iwi partnerships in tree planting on conservation and M\u0101ori land. It makes a commitment to the Treaty relationship through the highest level of input on agricultural, forestry, and fishing issues. To this end, I will be tabling a very important amendment during the Committee stage to ensure that the emissions trading scheme gives effect to Treaty principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe scheme is not perfect by any means. But we believe that it balances the concerns of wh\u0101nau and businesses with the need to ensure we protect our environment for future generations. Ultimately, it is those mokopuna whom we must think of as we make our vote today. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022af6ddbef003c4465ab444bc85ef7a798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af6ddbef003c4465ab444bc85ef7a798\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in this debate. A little more than 10 years ago, New Zealand entered into the Kyoto Protocol. New Zealand committed itself to Kyoto, and this Government is committed to follow through on those obligations. Living in a carbon-constrained world is a legal, economic, and environmental reality. It is something that all New Zealanders have to grasp as part of this debate. As well as that, it is a trade imperative to now be seen to be doing our part around our carbon obligations as set out in Kyoto. New Zealanders need to understand that whatever they may think of the debate, from a matter of trade we need to do our bit under Kyoto. We need to be seen to be playing our part. Under the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThere is one other starting point that New Zealanders need to grasp if they are listening to this debate and when they think about this debate. They need to understand that on 1 January, without this bill masses of cost will come into play. The power bills of households will go up by 10 percent, and it is Kiwi mums and dads who will bear that cost. As well as that, if we do not change the legislation, the jobs of thousands of New Zealanders will be put at risk. The Labour Opposition talks about jobs, but if its scheme comes into force on 1 January of next year, which it will do if we do not pass this legislation, not only will the costs of households go up dramatically, but New Zealand jobs will be at risk. This bill is about getting that balance right between those two things. It is about getting the balance right between what we must do to play our part in terms of the environmental, economic, and legal realities as set out in the Kyoto Protocol, and ensuring that in doing so we do not sacrifice the New Zealand economy, the jobs of New Zealanders, and the wealth of every citizen in this country, as well as future generations, as Rahui Katene referred to in her speech. This bill does that well. Politics aside, we have a workable solution that balances our international obligations, our environmental obligations, and the fiscal realities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWhen this Government was elected, we talked, in regard to emissions trading, about a couple of things. We talked about the need to be aligned with Australia as much as we could. We talked about the fact that Australia is our major trading partner, so it would make sense to put our industry on a similar footing to that in Australia. We talked about the fact that to National, an emissions trading scheme should not be a tax-generating mechanism. That is what it was going to be under the Labour scheme. It was setting itself up to suck another $2 billion a year out of the economy to put into its war chest. We do not see the emissions trading scheme as revenue gathering for the Crown. We see the emissions trading scheme as about protecting the environment and protecting jobs. We set out to design a scheme that was fiscally neutral, and that is what we have done in this bill. We do it without risking our key industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELet us be really clear that under this bill the cost on New Zealand households will halve\u2014it will halve. That is what we are talking about. We are not talking about big business. We are talking about cutting in half the cost that the Labour Opposition wanted to put on Kiwi households. This bill will not impose that cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI shall spend a moment talking about agriculture, because that is an area of great importance to my Selwyn electorate. Agriculture is a crucial industry to this country. It always has been and it always will be. We are not prepared to see agriculture sacrificed but we must deal with it within the emissions trading scheme. The reason we must deal with it is that it is almost half of our emissions profile. I know that other countries have decided to exclude agriculture, and if it were possible, that would be great. But when, in New Zealand, half of our emissions profile is agriculture, we must include it in an emissions trading scheme, and it has stayed in our system. But\u2014and it is a big but\u2014we will ensure that we will do it in a way that does not see farmers go into bankruptcy in their thousands, as would previously have been the case. We have deferred the introduction of agriculture for a further 2 years to enable time to look into better ways for farmers to adapt and to reduce their emissions so they are not just fed to the wolves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe are not here to put people out of business. We are not here to kill off industry. We are not here to see New Zealand continue to sink further and further down the OECD rankings, and that is what would happen if we did not stand up for agriculture. So we must include it. But the Minister has worked very hard, as have officials, to ensure that it can be included in a way that enables our farmers and our agriculture industries to survive. That is through a deferral of 2 years. That is through the reduced phase-out rate. Instead of losing their allocations at 8 percent a year, our farmers will see a phase-out rate of 1.3 percent a year, starting in 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268535f0497134ad2a7cd0e745a2ec6ab\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve been saving 1.5 percent since 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c8e0003b1e45159c5e929adac37447\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As Mr Cunliffe said\u2014for once in his life managing to say something that is remotely accurate\u2014they are getting phased out a lesser rate now than they have already been working to reduce their emissions. So we are saying to them that that is great. It is fantastic. That is the point. The point is if they are already reducing their emissions, we support them. This is a carrot and a stick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268dc6e2af92a4be4ac00824a1954df04\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, with no stick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d2853d797f42d88641665ce21feff2\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: If they reduce their emissions, they will not have a bill. If they do not reduce their emissions, they will have a bill, I say to Mr Cunliffe. I do not know why he finds that so hard to grasp. But we cannot in this country simply ignore it. The way Kyoto works is that we have to account for our entire domestic emissions profile. In this country, if we were to leave agriculture out, all of that burden would fall on the rest of the economy. In Australia, the emissions profile of agriculture is 13 percent. They may find that workable, although I suspect we will find that there will be considerable cost there in agriculture, albeit that may be achieved through other mechanisms apart from those directly in the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe bill we have before us does, in my view, strike the right balance with our environmental obligations, with the trade realities of needing to show the rest of the world that New Zealand is doing its bit between meeting our Kyoto legal obligations and the need to ensure that we do not walk away from Kiwi jobs and do not put the income of more Kiwi households at risk. We do not want to see big cost increases on Kiwi households that do not need to be there. This bill will halve those increases. It will protect those jobs, and it will do our bit for the environment. I am very pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d21110491bce4f15b02d624815a1092a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d21110491bce4f15b02d624815a1092a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Amy Adams, the member who has just resumed her seat, for clarifying several things. The Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill is putting on New Zealand households\u2014on hard-working New Zealanders and their children\u2014a debit equivalent to $92,000 a household. By the Government\u2019s own numbers, even if we take the most favourable assumptions and leave out the compounding cost, it will be $50 billion a year by 2050. This is based on a carbon price of $25 a tonne in 2013, going up to $50 a tonne thereafter. The Government\u2019s own number is $50 billion by 2050. If we put in the cost of capital, we see that it will be $110 billion, yet those members have the gall to say that Labour wants to impose costs on New Zealand households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe member who just resumed her seat is from an agricultural constituency and she did agree with the point that agriculture has been reducing its emissions by 1.5 percent per year, on average, since 1990. But the obligation this Government is bringing on the sector is for 1.3 percent\u2014less than that\u2014going forward. Analysis presented to the Finance and Expenditure Committee said that the first 5 million tonnes of agricultural carbon emissions reduction will be at a profit, but the Government will write the sector a cheque as well, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut the saddest thing was not Miss Adams\u2019 speech; it was the previous one by Rahui Katene. She is a member I do respect, but I ask her whether, unlike Ng\u0101i Tahu, other iwi like Tainui got Department of Conservation lands in their settlement, or whether those other iwi who participated in the Crown Forestry Rental Trust will have access to the last-minute deal that the M\u0101ori Party has brokered for its benefactors. Members should make no mistake: this is not a deal for the average M\u0101ori up and down the motu. This is a deal for a very small number of people\u2014wealthy interests at the \u201CBrowntable\u201D\u2014and that is not kaitiakitanga and it is not whanaungatanga in any understanding that we possess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut let us put ourselves in the shoes of our children. No member of this House, whatever party they come from, can honestly look their children in the eye and say to them that they will be better off in the future as a result of this bill, and that their future will be brighter than ours. Let us cast our minds back a little and think about the place that this baby-boom generation has occupied in our history\u2014the children of the Second World War who vowed to build a better world. Here we stand today at the cusp between their era and the era that our children and our grandchildren will inherit, but what do the latter have to look forward to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe thing that worries young people today is not the global financial crisis\u2014that is just a blip\u2014it is not the end of the American empire or the rise of East Asia, but it is the threat of a changing climate. That is why we go to see movies like The Day After Tomorrow, 2012, and even Twilight. We go to them because this civilisation, our young people feel, is entering its twilight. Our young people are no longer optimistic that their future will be better than this generation\u2019s past, but what is the National Government doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis Government is imposing on the young people of New Zealand, and on our grandchildren, a bill that will put liabilities on the credit card for generations to come, in order to subsidise the big polluters of today: the powerful interests that support the National Party. It is as cheap and as dirty as that. If smirking members opposite doubt me, I say let us cast our minds back to when the man who is now Prime Minister said climate change was a hoax. Then, just before the election, when he worked out that young people vote, he said that, no, he had always believed in it. Now he has returned to type, because this bill is hype; it is a hoax and it is a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhy should we be surprised? The process that has been used by the \u201CMinister for Shambles\u201D was exactly that. It was a travesty. There is a telephone book of amendments laid on the Table that this Parliament has not seen before today. I appreciate the Minister inviting some of us in this morning, but those Supplementary Order Papers have not had the benefit of a select committee process. Even those parts of the bill that did go to a select committee had to be considered in the absence of material that that Minister withheld under the Official Information Act. Although 379 submitters said they wanted to be heard, the chairman of the committee felt there was time for only 30. We finally insisted on 127, but most of them got called the same day and were told \u201CPony up, or lose the chance. This is it.\u201D Yet that National Party had the gall to say of last year\u2019s bill that Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme was rushed. Labour spent a whole year on a select committee process; National has allowed 1 day for submissions and tabled those amendments in the House. There is a word for it\u2014I cannot use it\u2014it starts with \u201Ch\u201D. Members opposite know which word I mean. National has one set of standards in Opposition, but runs right over them when it gets into Government. I say to those guys opposite that the issue with that is that a party like that does not stay on the Treasury benches for long, because New Zealanders know the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI ask what our young people want. Our young people want responsible leadership. They want leadership that can see into the future and help to bring the present to that better place. Our young people know that they are being cheated today, and that they are being presented with a huge bill for a scheme that is badly designed and that has not been properly considered. It is a scheme, according to Treasury\u2019s regulatory impact assessment unit, that could not stand scrutiny because the analysis it was built on was flawed\u2014or words to that effect. It is a bill that did not have even a departmental clause-by-clause report. Officials could not produce one because there was not time. It is a bill for which the Parliamentary Counsel Office could not produce a revision-tracked set of amendments for the committee to consider in the normal way, because there was not time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat is the rush? Is it to allow a Minister and his leader to grandstand in Copenhagen? I pity them, because Charles Chauvel will be there telling people the truth about the sham that is being driven through this Parliament today, and the world will know that the Government is \u201C100% Pure\u201D\u2014\u201C100% Pure Nonsense\u201D. [Interruption] I have two minutes left before the next member\u2019s call, I say to Ms Wagner, and I hope she will enjoy my speech, because I am so far from finished with this bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe have a long few days ahead of us on this bill. I am looking forward to the Committee stage\u2014to counting every subsidy, to unmasking every dirty deal, and to showing out every craven emitter who has come to the door of the Minister, where God knows what has been exchanged for a $110 billion cheque. How ludicrous is this: a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system with no cap? It would be like a carbon tax with no tax\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3725ec14474b608a7380022440e165\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: And no carbon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540fce49d6004050842f54bf519ccc53\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and no carbon. The idea of emissions trading, for the general public, is that New Zealand gets to adapt to a low-carbon future at the lowest economic cost, but it only works if we actually have to trade, and that only happens if we actually have a cap. Treasury and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment agree that this bill will reduce emissions by up to less than 1 percent only. So what do we get\u2014and, hey, let us be generous\u2014for our $50 billion? What do we get for that? According to the independent authorities, we get less than 1 percent of emissions reduction for at least $50 billion on the Government\u2019s debt by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIs that anybody\u2019s idea of a good deal? Is it anybody\u2019s idea of a good design? Is it anybody\u2019s idea of a good process, or a good future for our children? If I feel upset about this bill, it is because I have kids, and I cannot look them in the eye and say that today we as a House are making their future brighter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4eb73d617134b99b4c3be75be73f49a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4eb73d617134b99b4c3be75be73f49a\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I support the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I support it because it is a moderate, common-sense response to an enormously difficult problem. It has been really interesting to listen to David Cunliffe today. He spent a heap of time in the Finance and Expenditure Committee bleating that he did not understand the bill, in order to make political points, but his speech today proves the point: he truly does not understand it at all. His speech was full of emotive rhetoric and there was no intelligent comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EEverywhere around the world, Governments and people are struggling with the concept of climate change. It is a fiendishly difficult problem. As the Australian professor Ross Garnaut said: \u201CIt is harder than any other issue of high importance that has come before our polity in living memory.\u201D But around the world there is general agreement that this is a truly global issue and it has to be tackled. Every country has to deal with the problem, every country needs to be involved, and Governments around the world have accepted that fact. Indeed, I cannot think of any country that has declared it will do nothing. It is a fiendishly difficult problem, and it comes at the worst possible time: a time when the world is also struggling with a hugely challenging financial situation, a time of great economic turmoil and international uncertainty. This bill is a first step, a sensible, pragmatic, responsible response to both environmental and economic conditions. It includes a series of reviews, starting in 2011, which will allow us to tweak the legislation as the global situation clarifies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe process of getting to this point has been agonising. There is general agreement that New Zealand needs to have an emissions trading scheme, but little agreement about how it should be formulated. The devil is always in the detail. Way back in the late 1990s, National began advocating for an emissions trading scheme, but between then and now\u2014and a Labour Government\u2014we have had a failed tax proposal, an unsuccessful industrial scheme, and an unrealistic Act. Now, finally, we have a reasonable and rational scheme that allows New Zealand to do its fair share for global climate change without destroying our economy or the quality of life that it delivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOver the last decade we have seen lots of energy, angst, and good intentions to tackle the issue of climate change, but it has all come to nothing. It is very, very unfortunate that politicians have not been able to work in concert to deal with an unprecedented, important, and difficult issue. National highlighted in its Bluegreens discussion document, coming up to the last election, that long-term environmental issues should be treated in a far more bipartisan way. We believe that the environment is too important to be squabbled over. Environmental decisions have long-term consequences, and therefore need more than a 3-year, a 6-year, or even a 9-year focus. We will still be dealing with the issue of climate change in 2020 and 2050. If ever there was an issue on which parliamentarians should have worked well together to get the best possible outcome for this country, this is it. I agree with Charles Chauvel, who said Parliament has a golden opportunity to reach a broad consensus and take New Zealand\u2019s emissions trading scheme design off the political battlefield once and for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAfter two previous select committee processes to consider the issue, including an in-depth and pretty intelligent review of the present emissions trading scheme and related matters, we should have been able to deal with this new legislation efficiently and effectively. An enormous amount of research and information has been available in the public domain, and the people of New Zealand want us to sort this issue out once and for all. It is therefore absolutely disappointing that although Opposition members continue to state how important this legislation is, they were not prepared to knuckle down and get the best possible result for the country. Their uncooperative squabbling and childish behaviour reflects badly on them, and it undermines any professed commitment to a better environmental future for New Zealand. Political grandstanding, stupid party politicking, and half-truths were the order of the day. The fact that we could get no agreement was an enormous waste of time and money, and a waste of the best intentions of submitters who will be affected by this bill. On principle, the Opposition would not even agree with uncontested technical amendments. So much for Labour\u2019s claim that we cannot afford to delay our emissions trading scheme! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAfter listening to Labour speakers, I remind everyone that despite Labour\u2019s rhetoric, until 2018 there is very little difference between the allocations under this bill and those under the existing legislation. I also reflect that this is high-profile legislation that affects all of us. But it is a hugely complex process, and most New Zealanders do not understand all the issues. Everyone is affected differently. Therefore, many people are partly informed, some are uninformed, and some are misinformed. Opinion is polarised. Labour can quote plenty of criticism that suits its purposes; ACT can do the same\u2014although I must say they make strange bedfellows. The Government\u2019s job is to walk the knife-edge between conflicting opinions and produce rational, sensible legislation. This bill is about implementing a workable and affordable emissions trading scheme. The legislation includes provision for regular reviews in order to give us enough flexibility to manage our responsibilities intelligently as the world grapples with the ongoing issue of climate change. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022a533b50182b54516a17003403a77c35f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a533b50182b54516a17003403a77c35f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to follow the \u201CLet them eat cake.\u201D speech made by Nicky Wagner, which bore absolutely no resemblance to the bill before us, the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, or the process it went through. The gall of that member to stand up and chastise other countries for not doing enough to deal with climate change, when we are sitting here, under urgency, considering legislation that had only 6 weeks at the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014only 6 weeks at the select committee. Submitters were rung and told that they had to come in and give their submissions 4 hours later that night, after we had heard that the National Government wanted to limit the number of people coming in to only 20 of the hundreds who had submitted. The officials made mistakes in the process because they did not have enough time to prepare the papers. Our deadline did not give us enough time to even do the departmental report properly. We could not get a clause by clause analysis. We could not get a revision-tracked version of the bill. And that member has the gall to stand up in this House and say that Labour was being difficult!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELabour members were being difficult because all we wanted\u2014and we put a motion before the select committee\u2014was an extension of time so that we could have time to consider the technical amendments that that member just accused us of not being prepared to consider. Well, how did that member vote on the motion that Labour put forward asking for another week to properly consider the bill? [Interruption] She voted against it. I tell Nicky Wagner not to stand in this House and chastise members of the Labour Party for being difficult. Why could we not have had another week in which to consider at least the technical amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221adcaff2316949609db7d4bdc69e1c3b\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: You could have done it if you\u2019d just got on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2209df7254e4fcf9cd60638888194e1\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know whether Nicky Wagner has discovered the power of time travel, but it was simply not possible to do it in the time that we had. This bill is an incredibly important bill, and it had 6 weeks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e07e74ec1a44b184538e4a40abf918\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: For God\u2019s sake, Moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217d77408de04c0198b553854d8e711d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my God! Seriously? It had 6 weeks at the select committee, I say to Nicky Wagner. It should have had 6 months at the least. When Labour\u2019s scheme took 8 months, National members said it was being forced through. When Labour heard 60 hours of submissions on our emissions trading scheme, they said it was not enough. But National allows only 20 submissions on this bill, and that member sits there and chastises us for complaining that the process is being rushed. Unbelievable! And that was from a member who claims to have blue-green credentials. She should be standing up in this House and saying stop the madness, slow this down, and let us have some proper discussion about legislation that will shift $110 billion worth of liabilities away from polluters and on to the taxpayers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI heard earlier that the Hon Dr Nick Smith said that my colleague Charles Chauvel was just being ridiculous when he said that the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme legislation was not going to pass in Australia, and that he was scaremongering. I am sure the Minister knows by now that Andrew Robb, who is the climate change spokesperson for the Liberals, spoke against the legislation in their caucus. They had 15 speakers for, and 13 against, and they have had to hold an emergency meeting. I think the Hon Dr Nick Smith ought to calm down his rhetoric a little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhile we are talking about the Hon Dr Nick Smith, I want to talk about the process that we went through. He has been chipping away at me across the House, and, to be fair, I have been chipping back at him. But the fact is that Labour did not disengage from this process. We absolutely believe that it is critical that we get bipartisan agreement on an emissions trading scheme; we absolutely believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227444be8155a47da96f823619f01526f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Where were you this morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3ce1b6d5dc431a8761c12eab825833\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I was at a tangi this morning, I say to Dr Smith, and I have only just got back, so I am sorry about that. I would like to pay my respects to the family of H\u0101wea Vercoe, who tragically died over the weekend. I was at a tangi, and that was why I could not come to Dr Smith\u2019s meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is we had a very, very good meeting. We had a great meeting with the Minister for Climate Change. We laid out what we thought the areas of agreement were, where we thought we could go from here, and the things we were not going to agree on that we thought could be put aside because they were not critical to getting agreement on an emissions trading scheme. Then we went away. Over the weekend Labour had its annual conference, so we were busy. My colleague Charles Chauvel emailed\u2014I was copied into the email\u2014a copy of Labour\u2019s response, with a \u201CWhere to from here?\u201D, a draft memorandum of understanding. I then got off a plane in Wellington to hear that National had done a deal with the M\u0101ori Party. So when the Hon Dr Nick Smith says that Labour walked away, that is absolutely not true. He then invented a conversation that he had had with my colleague David Parker, saying that he had said to David Parker: \u201COh, you need to get back to me by Friday.\u201D, and David Parker had said that he would. That conversation never happened. The only conversation David Parker had with the Hon Dr Nick Smith was about the Resource Management Act amendment bill that was going through that week. That is not true, and the Minister knows it. Does he have to start inventing conversations that never happened? There were three Labour members in the room, and none of us told the Minister that we would get back to him by Friday. None of us were under the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c6f46cc93046dd929efd20fc565606\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Ask George.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e300a64fe84d43a2b3390d0b830168c5\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member says to ask George, ask his adviser. I guess the public will have to go by that member\u2019s record. We did not give that undertaking; if we had, why would my colleague have spent all weekend drafting a very comprehensive response, which he emailed to the Minister before he went to Cabinet on that Monday, before the decision was announced? Then the Minister could not even pick up the phone to ring Charles Chauvel, our spokesperson, to say to him: \u201CLook, we\u2019ve done a deal with the M\u0101ori Party.\u201D We heard about it on the news, along with everyone else. So when the Minister accuses Labour members of disengaging from the process, I say that that is absolutely unbelievable. We did not walk away; there was nothing to walk away from. By the time we had heard on the news that a deal had been done and that we had been excluded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce102aa91c74ed4af82b66471206306\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why not more deals? Why can\u2019t we include the M\u0101ori Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515df7e937dc41c5a33071b5d9ede90f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because Labour will not support an intensity of emissions approach without a cap, I say to Dr Smith, and we will not support 200 years of subsidies, as we were told, to the biggest polluters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a28e5734f44a7295847fcb7610d77f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: 200 now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6becdf17cb74d44b9ee3fde83ce3cde\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what we were told by some of the submitters. To be fair, David Carter said only 90 years, so I will go with what the Minister of Agriculture said; he is promising subsidies for only 90 years. But the fact remains that Nicky Wagner, who got up to say how shameful it was that we were not able to get bipartisan agreement, needs to walk down to the front bench of her own party and tell her Minister, who walked away from Labour in negotiations, who then made up stories about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629035cb5b01471183c70dabcc11b453\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t. The door\u2019s still open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d28c12c15d6c4ac89e8092c80b24264f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: We are in urgency, this bill is being forced through the House, and the Minister says the door is still open. That is what negotiation means to National\u2014it is take it or leave it. I want to tell members what happened here. When we had meetings with the Hon Dr Nick Smith earlier in the process, he was very reasonable on a whole number of things. He said that agriculture was not a bottom line for him, and that if we thought it had to come into the scheme in 2013, then that was fine, and he would not have an issue with it. I remember thinking that that seemed very strange, because I had been meeting Federated Farmers groups who had told me that the Hon David Carter had promised them that agriculture would never come into the emissions trading scheme and have to face the full cost of its emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bff5d14e9944b07ace69b1caea1a69b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Not true! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac844f5ae28b4d5db4d999540b27e4d2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: You know, in this instance, I think I believe Federated Farmers, I say to Dr Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632ee9a2f0034180a1dffdd3313b8099\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Everybody\u2019s lying except Nick Smith!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa7b3ed8bae44a56b1b8ca15261296a5\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Here we are in a situation where everyone is lying except the Hon Dr Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721a5618d04b40be8f0fcaf9a69bc3b7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot use the word \u201Clie\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b998bf509e418ba162266cbeee1848\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I withdraw that comment. Everyone else is wrong and only the Hon Dr Nick Smith is right; that is the situation we are in at the moment. Well, Federated Farmers members said before the election that agriculture would not come under the emissions trading scheme, because David Carter had told them that it would never come under it and that farmers would never have to face the full cost of their emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2c7aca4b47423daef90f0c17760ca6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: He never said that. David Carter never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f11cb48b02324de3ab953bda8b4fd1fc\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Smith that all I am saying is what Federated Farmers told me, and if we look at this legislation we see that they are absolutely right: National has delayed agriculture coming in for another 2 years, farmers are not going to have to face the full cost of their emissions for God knows how long after that, and there will be review periods and review periods so that the time frame can be pushed out even further and even further\u2014and I firmly believe that it will be pushed out even further and even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ETo be fair to the Hon Dr Nick Smith, I actually think he does believe we need to do something about agriculture, but he was rolled by his caucus. I think he went back to his caucus and told it what the deal was, and his caucus said that, no, the bottom line for it was that agriculture should not have to face the full cost of its emissions. He had made promises\u2014well, they were not promises; they were indications\u2014to Labour members that he would be prepared to move on some things, and all of a sudden they were off the table. All of a sudden, we came back and found out that there would be an intensity of emissions approach without a cap, which basically means that we are going to pay polluters to pollute more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn fact, polluters would do better to lift their greenhouse gas emissions, because then they would get more free allocation. That is what this approach means. I do not know why the Minister thinks that is a good policy for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. One would think that the point of having an emissions trading scheme would be to reduce our emissions; otherwise, what is the point? This emissions trading scheme amendment bill does not do that. What it does is provide incentives for some of our biggest polluters to pollute more, because they get more free allocation for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat it does most, and the worst thing about is, is that it turns the existing emissions trading scheme, which is a polluter-pays model, into a pay-the-polluter model. Who is going to pay the polluter? The New Zealand taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08c8542d6954ac7837d2b84686087c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f920b84bea46c9ad12e7e01196627a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, where is the $110 billion going to come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bc9b11ca344c20aa97a85477e4e9cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t even believe what you are saying!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847a5d8266f940108c9df8b852febf5b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do believe it, because that $110 billion has to come from somewhere. It ain\u2019t going to come from private schools; we have already seen that National is happy to take money off adult and community education to give it to private schools. It will come from health, it will come from education, it will come from social services, and it will come from the public sector. It has to come from somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e089339f5d404212b8d574bd3473e874\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2f01c9586e48b9b03f13654254babf\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot use that phrase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227c498b999d646e58c9497012cb08f89\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Jonathan Coleman can scream out that I am not telling the truth, but I look forward to his telling me where the $110 billion will come from. Where will it come from, I ask Dr Coleman. It will come from the taxpayers of New Zealand. This is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u0022de035e0a7bce4daf9364a906d42e47fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de035e0a7bce4daf9364a906d42e47fb\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak last in the second reading of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The previous speaker, Moana Mackey, was talking\u2014apparently\u2014about this bill, but members would not know that from the rhetoric that came from her. They would know that nothing that came out of her mouth made any sense whatsoever\u2014either she cannot count or cannot read, or both. But we will find out about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThis bill provides a step along the path towards meeting our climate change needs, a future for my children and my future grandchildren, and the ability, whether members believe in climate change or not\u2014like some of our friends over there in the ACT Party\u2014for New Zealand producers to get their goods into overseas markets while we are doing our fair share. Some will say the bill does not do enough; some will say it does far too much. But this bill will provide some comfort to mums and dads out there who may be listening to this debate today, in that the cost of this scheme will be half what the Labour scheme would have cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ccbfafba05411c8fe6439316d3f6ca\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3b0edcb2764044884a0ea55faeefb6\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to read the bill. That member is proving that she has not even read the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThis bill went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and I must say that sitting through that committee while it considered this bill was an experience. We have heard about all the sorts of behaviour that occurred on that committee. I do not want to go into that, but I must say that I will recall that behaviour for years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little about the so-called cost to New Zealand of this emissions trading scheme\u2014Mr Cunliffe\u2019s $110 billion; the so-called huge cost for taxpayers. There is no $110 billion cost to New Zealand. We have heard that New Zealand will have to pay a large amount of money, and that there will be $110 billion of debt for this emissions trading scheme. Climate change is complex, but if those members who are making that claim about $110 billion had read the bill or knew how to count, or both, we would not have this misunderstanding. What is that mythical figure\u2014the supposed $110 billion debt that will occur? What it is is that instead of taxing the good people of New Zealand by $2 billion per annum, the Government is giving back $2 billion to people to allow them to have a transition to a sustainable climate change position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EWe campaigned on providing a fiscally neutral emissions trading scheme, and this bill helps to deliver that. We believe in jobs and in our communities. So we believe that the best thing to do is not to have the Government gain $2 billion from taxing people but to use that money to mitigate the transition path to a better position for our communities out there. This scheme has been designed so that over the next decade there is only a small net gain for the Government, rather than it raising billions of dollars from communities out there. Jobs that would have gone from thousands of factories and businesses up and down the country under the Labour scheme will be kept. We care about jobs, and we care about communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EFinally, contemporaneously with this bill we have announced a suite of measures, which other people have not spoken about, to add to the transitional part of the legislation. There is $323 million for home insulation and a further $24 million for low-income households. In my maiden speech I spoke about living in a State house that was uninsulated and that my family could not afford to heat. I am proud to be part of a Government that has introduced a housing scheme that gives people in State housing the ability to have their homes heated and insulated properly, so that other little kids out there listening to this debate today can grow up in a warm and healthy home. What else have we done? We have introduced $36 million for bio-diesel, we have introduced funding for a centre of research excellence for agriculture, we have introduced some changes to the Resource Management Act to streamline renewable energy projects, and there are many more measures. We have also resolved the legal dilemma that existed with regard to iwi, who had been so easily brushed aside by the previous Labour Government. That is something that we inherited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EWe will hear plenty more over the next day or two on this bill, and I look forward to contributing to the debate. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022448440ce0ae148f2a8c3d6a3c3c24c68\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a8ce2def3ec4e6d914f98bf86d5d46b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222652f2d1e4af4ad9b06f4ebac4b6474d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Climate Change Response Act 2002 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002241780b68bf3b4eb7bd5a41e1db88cdaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241780b68bf3b4eb7bd5a41e1db88cdaa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I am in no doubt that we are about to start a pretty important debate for New Zealand about how it responds to the challenge of climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe first point I make, having been a member of Parliament now for 19 years, is that the debate about a pricing instrument to constrain emissions has gone round and round in circles. I will just recite the history. Back in the time of the previous National Government we originally proposed a low-level carbon tax. A Cabinet decision was made in 1999 that we should get officials to work on an emissions trading scheme. The last Labour Government came to office in 1999 and said that it did not want to do an emissions trading scheme; it wanted to do a carbon tax. We had officials beavering away for 5 or 6 years on a carbon tax and then they came back to a conclusion of an emissions trading scheme. So my first point is that this debate has gone on for a very long time. There have been over eight different public consultation documents. There have been three rounds of select committee hearings. There have been over 2,000 submissions. I say to the Committee that there comes a point, on an issue as big as climate change, where we need to make progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAt the last general election National had a very comprehensive policy around emissions trading. I will go through what we said to the electorate. First we said to the electorate that we wanted to align New Zealand\u2019s emissions trading scheme more closely with Australia\u2019s scheme. Every member of this Committee would know that New Zealand and Australia have very closely integrated economies, and that it makes good sense, on a global issue like climate change, for us to work closely with Australia. I challenge those members who have been quite strong with their rhetoric around the weaknesses that they see in this modified emissions trading scheme. Every single criticism they make they can make also of their Australian Labor Party colleagues, who are putting a bill through their Parliament that is actually slightly softer than this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo if members want to make criticisms of this bill\u2014for instance, to argue that it does nothing for climate change\u2014they need to argue that the Australian scheme also does nothing for climate change. If they want to argue that it costs billions of dollars, they need equally to say that that cost would apply to Australia. I think that point just exposes the extreme rhetoric that we have heard from Labour members over this bill. We said to the electorate that we would align the scheme more closely with Australia\u2019s, and we are doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227895bc7e81be4da9b1ea04f14d534bf0\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Jesus!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd320f6fef5f4f9d9965cd2498bbdf9c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, excuse me! I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am more than happy to tolerate interjections but I think swear words of that sort are quite inappropriate, and I ask you to take some action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3486d22a83c40c49fee351d7de24495\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that I did not hear what the member said, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294adc23572ef4780a849d7365f697676\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203bfd2f8f2ad41c4bd7afc831e33e549\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: First we said we would align the scheme more closely with Australia\u2019s, and we are doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second thing we said, in respect of our changes to the scheme, is that we did not see an emissions trading scheme as some means for the Government to grab great wealth from the private sector, and from families and homes. We said we wanted a scheme that would provide a financial incentive for fewer emissions but would not simply export industry offshore. So in aligning this bill with Australia\u2019s scheme, we are saying we want to do our fair share on climate change. It is true that the changes we are making do not result in the Government\u2019s making billions of dollars. That is true. Does it involve a cost to the taxpayer? No, it does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281fe55bd22c640a8a02ac4feabf199c8\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c6d4e61bac4f9abbc02b213ca87a03\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hodgson claims that it does. Let us be clear about Treasury\u2019s projections. I know that members opposite have become very excited about the $110 billion figure. Let us be clear, though, and honest with the public about what Labour is saying. First up, Treasury is saying that $50 billion more revenue would come to the Government under the previous Labour Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme to 2050 than under National\u2019s scheme. Well, that is true, but it relies on a faster abatement rate than that of our proposal to align with Australia\u2019s scheme. So if members opposite want to get up and say that our scheme would take $50 billion more from New Zealanders than Labour\u2019s scheme would have done, they are right and they should be upfront about that. But that is quite different to describing a cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHow do they get to that $110 billion? They say that every year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264208bf0c6ee4b90b4b1b694e982efd0\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: We looked at Treasury\u2019s projections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dddceabb1eb4d15acfcbd68460a0b46\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Hodgson that it is about being honest about what Treasury is saying, not misinterpreting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second point members opposite make is that if we invest the money from the emissions trading scheme\u2014those super-profits\u2014and compound the interest, we can add that up to $110 billion. Well, hang on a moment! When the previous Labour Government announced its emissions trading scheme it said that the Government would not bank the super-profits of the scheme but would reinvest them in climate change policy. So my response to members opposite is that they cannot say, on the one hand, that Labour would spend that money on climate change and, on the other hand, that it would claim the interest at the same time. That is not consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe members opposite are misleading on a third point. With their rhetoric they say that this is a big subsidy for those big ugly international corporates. Do members opposite know that the advice is that 80 percent of the allocation that we are debating is those big ugly corporates\u2014those 32,000 New Zealand farmers? Why not call them what they are? Members opposite are really saying that they want to incur on New Zealand farmers $40 billion more in costs. That is what they are really saying, and they should be honest with the electorate and say that that was the advice. But this Government is saying that we do not want to make those super-profits from an emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe said a third thing to the electorate, and we were quite upfront about it in our policy. We said that we wanted to take an intensity-based approach. This is very interesting. The Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee sought advice from two of New Zealand\u2019s most important economic analysts\u2014that is, Infometrics and the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research. How many times have I heard those two firms, and their advice, quoted in this Parliament? In my career here I would say I have heard it hundreds if not thousands of times. I have heard the Opposition quote both those firms over and over again. What did the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics advise the special select committee? The first thing they said is that in the short term it was actually a pretty even argument between a carbon tax and an emissions trading scheme but, on balance, they thought we were best to progress with an emissions trading scheme. The second thing they said was that the best way to avoid the problems of carbon leakage\u2014that is, just exporting industries offshore\u2014was to take an intensity-based approach. The intensity-based approach is what is in the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme in Australia, and that is another strong reason for that approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThese amendments are a sensible way forward for New Zealand on one of the most complex areas of public policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b927679224974a8cb5f7093fc82fe047\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Then why is it so rushed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed47d342f87046889c1173bf3e8ccc5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member interjects about the process. First I point out that a year ago, when Labour had its climate change legislation before the House, it introduced not just one Supplementary Order Paper\u2014I have introduced one\u2014but four Supplementary Order Papers. No briefing was provided, as I provided to members on mine, and they were passed into law on the same day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816539517de7483fb4353c1430d54da7\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: So long as it\u2019s been at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d99f4529cc47b7977d7c7a80bbed90\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I put an issue to the member who is interjecting. I invite her to remember that when I was having discussions with the Labour Opposition about an agreement that we might be able to reach, I said to them that I was running into a real deadline. I needed to get an amendment bill through the House before 1 January because there were problems with the legislation that would come into effect. I said to them that we really needed to conclude those discussions quickly because I was running out of legislative time and the bill had to go to the select committee. Do members of the Committee know what Labour members said to me? They said that if I agreed with them, they would support the bill not needing to go to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246cd5e672c9c4b2ea88b50f1414fbebe\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228dba772b3cb4bcc99cca45d0c9c2a74\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let us be clear. If we get an agreement with the Labour Party, the bill does not have to go to the select committee, but if we get an agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, the Labour Party has a completely different standard! That is why I say to Labour members that I will test them on their rhetoric every way in this debate, because in this bill we have a sensible way forward on climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I make is that we accepted an agreement reached in good faith with the M\u0101ori Party, and the moment that agreement was announced I said that I remained as committed as I was the day before I reached agreement with the M\u0101ori Party to continuing discussions with Labour, because it is my view that for all the rhetoric that will occur in the Chamber over the next couple of days, there is actually a very high level of agreement about the sensible way forward. There is a very high level of agreement. We agree that an emissions trading scheme is the best way forward. We agree that we need to have allocations. We agree that we need to have transitional measures. We agree that the science is such that we need to take action. So it is my view that this bill is the responsible and right thing to do on this complex issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI am really looking forward to a detailed debate in this Chamber. We might get away with sound bites, rhetoric, and spinning outside, but in this Chamber we will scrutinise every single one of the false claims that are being made by Labour on this scheme. The scheme is the sensible way forward, and I am looking forward to that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3dea3f736ba42fd88abf53c4afe3e39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3dea3f736ba42fd88abf53c4afe3e39\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It falls to me to begin the debate on behalf of Labour in the Committee stage on this legislation. I want to speak to one of the Supplementary Order Papers that has been lodged in my name, Supplementary Order Paper 94. If the Minister for Climate Change Issues truly wants the debate that he has called for\u2014and I have to say that history belies that intention, but let us give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment\u2014then we will have a proper consideration of the Supplementary Order Papers that lie on the table. The Supplementary Order Papers that have been tabled by the Greens and Labour reflect, by and large, the recommendations from independent authorities such as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and other independent experts who appeared before the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and who gave us the benefit of their advice about how we could improve what is a bill that is lacking in general analytical integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 94 does two things: it deals with national targets and it deals with the advisory committee on climate change that we are keen to see. In relation to national targets, it is clear that we are obliged under our Kyoto obligations to make a nationally appropriate contribution to international efforts to reduce greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere. That is a treaty obligation to avoid the worst consequence of human-induced climate change. In the current round of negotiations, as members of the House will know, New Zealand under the National Government has made a conditional offer of what is called a responsibility target. The greenhouse gas emissions reductions that that target calls for are between 10 and 20 percent below 1990 levels by 2020, if there is a comprehensive global agreement at Copenhagen. New Zealand has also made a unilateral unconditional offer of a 50 percent reduction in emissions to below 1990 levels by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ELabour has reflected on those targets. It does not think that they are bold enough. They should be considerably stronger. But having said that, I say that Labour does not want the targets to simply be statements of good intention. So the first thing that this Supplementary Order Paper does is enshrine the targets in the law, and it requires the Minister to take steps to ensure that those targets are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe second key substantive thing this Supplementary Order Paper would do, if the Committee supported it, would be to try to avoid some of the controversy in the development of climate change policy that the Minister alluded to in his speech just now. It is true that there is not a cross-party consensus as there is in Europe on some of the key issues at stake. We have all experienced hearing from the many stakeholders in the debate about the insufficient level of independent analysis of the costs and benefits of climate change policy initiatives. I found myself in the rare position in the second reading debate of agreeing with everything that Rodney Hide said on that topic in his speech, which was a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b9b0afd9ab74cb485e8b01f9349c145\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: You want an emissions trading scheme, and he doesn\u2019t. How does that stack up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294335a4fda444aa8a08420156da2fe54\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: But the select committee process\u2014which Jo Goodhew did not appear in at all, I think, but other members opposite did\u2014that we have just been through shows how important it is that we should have this proper independent level of analysis. It shows that complaints about its absence are quite justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe other part of this Supplementary Order Paper would establish an advisory committee on climate change. It would be an independent Crown entity, it would provide advice to Ministers, and it would promote an informed public debate on the public policy response to climate change. The committee would be required to consult all affected parties before it tendered its advice to the Minister. If the Minister is serious about the pious words that he uttered while on his feet earlier, he will have his party consider this Supplementary Order Paper with great care, and determine the position that National ought to take on it. It is my submission that this is the sort of legislation that we ought to see in this area if we are serious about wanting a consensus in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI will now talk to the structure of the Supplementary Order Paper. It would make two changes to the existing administrative provisions of the principal Act, the Climate Change Response Act, to increase transparency in policy making. First of all, there would be a requirement on the chief executive of the Ministry for the Environment, which is the inventory agency under the legislation, to produce an annual long-term forecast of emissions and removals of greenhouse gases. The suggestion in the Supplementary Order Paper is for a 50-year range of projections. The Supplementary Order Paper would provide that in preparing that forecast, the chief executive would have to act independently from the Minister and apply his or her best professional judgment to the task. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust to make sure that the process was transparent, the chief executive would be required to consult with the advisory committee, which would be set up under the second part of the Supplementary Order Paper, on the methodology that he or she proposed to use, and then publish the committee\u2019s views as a result of that consultative process. Then, the Supplementary Order Paper would require the Minister and the chief executive to seek and consider the advice of the advisory committee before any regulations or Orders in Council were made under the legislation. Again, for the sake of transparency, all that advice would be laid on the table of the House of Representatives; all members would be able to see it. If regulations or orders were made that contained provisions different from the advice, the Minister would be required to present a statement to the House setting out the Minister\u2019s reasons for not agreeing with the advice. Those are the two things that I am hoping to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs far as targets are concerned, the Supplementary Order Paper would insert a new part 6 into the principal Act. It would set national greenhouse gas emissions reductions targets. The proposal is that we would aim in the legislation for a 50 percent reduction in net emissions from 1990 levels by 2050. I have deliberately put the National Government\u2019s target in there, because I want to test whether National is serious about this sort of legislation. If Labour were in office, it would be bolder. But in the hope that the Government might support the amendment if it actually puts in place its own target, I have left that one there. Let us see whether the Government is willing to stand by that target by agreeing to legislate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ETo provide greater certainty for the pathway toward the target, the Supplementary Order Paper would also require the Governor-General in Council to set a series of intermediate targets, which would apply for 5-yearly periods, commencing in 2013. Although the amendment would allow for some flexibility around the intermediate targets, the suggestion is that the intermediate target for one period must not be higher than the target in the immediately preceding period. Net emissions in 2020 must be at least 10 percent lower than the 1990 baseline. Net emissions in 2050 would have to be 50 percent lower than the 1990 baseline. To increase the possibility of political consensus, the Supplementary Order Paper would require any order setting a target to be confirmed by an Act of Parliament by 1 July in the year after it was made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe are trying to set in place a transparent process of consultation. Under the Supplementary Order Paper, the Minister would have to publish a draft target together with a statement explaining why that particular target had been chosen. Public submissions would be made to the expert advisory committee. It would have to consider the Minister\u2019s reasons in any submissions received, and report back to the Minister before the target was set. The committee\u2019s advice would then be presented to the House. If the target that was finally set contained provisions that were different from the advice in the committee, the Minister\u2014again in a mirror provision to the provision on expert advice\u2014would have to explain to the House in a statement why it was that that difference occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs well as setting national targets, the Supplementary Order Paper would require the Minister to develop proposals and policies that the Minister considered would enable the targets to be met. We would not just have those figures plucked out of the air; we would have genuine, open, transparent processes by which we would see what policies would achieve the emissions reduction targets that the Government adopted. Whenever a new target was set on an intermediate basis, the Minister for Climate Change would have to present a report to the House on the proposals about how to reach those intermediate targets and also how they would contribute to the ultimate reaching of the final 2050 target. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI mentioned earlier that the Supplementary Order Paper also aims to establish an advisory committee on climate change. It would be an independent Crown entity. Its principal objectives would be to provide independent advice to the Minister on matters relating to the public policy response to climate change and to increase the effectiveness of public participation in the making of policies and laws in this area. One of the problems we have in this whole policy area is that it is all too hard. People\u2019s eyes glaze over when we talk about emissions trading. We would try to have an open expert body proceeding in a way that contributed\u2014[Interruption] I will finish the call shortly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b939a6a3df00445ca11407dba35da40c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I know that I have given the member the call, but I think the House has taken an instruction that no member will take more than two consecutive calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de69b9b210a4a77a9ec0378d4fbf5c3\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that under the leave provided that requirement had been waived for this debate. Am I wrong in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275128a7cfbc245e287d69b882a1850c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: The Government would be happy for the member to seek leave just for this individual call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdbd6bd683ad4348ad7349ea23ea4313\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: My mistake. We had better do this properly. Will you seek leave? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98c43feadcc4eb8b33aa1dbb8f6b577\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290aeace9111841a0a28c115502cbd165\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is not. Leave has been granted just for this one call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8fb916a8d248368ff387248a8860cd\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the indulgence. I will try to conclude in relatively short order. I was just making the point that the committee would help to increase public involvement in the debate, which is something that I think we all agree is needed if we are going to have enduring climate change policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn relation to its advice, the committee would have to report to the Minister by 1 December 2011 on whether the national emissions reduction target of 50 percent in net emissions below 1990 baselines needed to be altered. This report would be timed to allow the committee to have regard to the outcome of the current round of international negotiations on climate change. The committee would be required to provide advice to the Minister on the intermediate target to apply in every 5-year period commencing in 2013. Before providing advice the committee would have to consult with affected parties in an open and transparent manner. There would be annual reporting by the committee on the progress being made in meeting New Zealand\u2019s emissions reduction targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, as it is currently worded, the principal Act requires the Minister to establish a panel anyway, to review the emissions trading scheme established by the Act. The Minister has to do that every 5 years. My Supplementary Order Paper would amend those provisions to require that review to be conducted by this expert standing committee. The committee would be given more independence than the panel in setting its terms of reference in respect of any review, although the Minister would be empowered to require that the committee would have to consider specified matters as they arose in the international negotiations or otherwise. The bill would require the committee to consult with the public during its review. Once the review was completed the Minister would be required to present the committee\u2019s report and the Minister\u2019s response to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper is an attempt to set up a transparent process for reaching targets, enshrine the Government\u2019s own 2050 target into law, and put in place structures designed to facilitate a national consensus around climate change policy that is badly needed. I hope it receives the support of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221a7e60d4d5024e85b4264cc68c76b080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a7e60d4d5024e85b4264cc68c76b080\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about the ridiculous rate and length of time that free allocation is given to major emitters under this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The legislation that we currently have in New Zealand is already generous in its allocation to major emitters. There is good reason for that. If major emitters are exposed to competition in countries that are not pricing emissions, and we were to force upon them the cost of all of their emissions, overnight, then that would break some of those businesses. They would move offshore in the short term and probably never come back, yet in the medium term, when other countries were properly pricing emissions, they would be able to compete. So that is why we have free allocation. That is why we say to a company like Rio Tinto, which produces aluminium in Bluff, that we will pay for a lot of its carbon emissions for a transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut that does not come cheaply. In the case of Rio Tinto, the calculation that was relied upon by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment showed that the cost per employee, per annum, of that free allocation is $100,000. The cost of its free allocation of carbon emission rights is $100,000 per worker, per year. Another submitter said that that amount is an under-estimate, and that it is closer to $200,000 per annum; in my speech I will accept for the purposes of this argument that $100,000 per annum is the right figure. It is notable that we had no advice to the select committee that disproved those figures. The only advice we had, in terms of cost in the case of Rio Tinto, was that of about $100,000 per annum, which came from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and which was relying on a study that had been done for the Climate Change Leadership Forum last year, in consultation with Government officials, including officials from Treasury. So $100,000 is a good estimate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut a $100,000 cost per annum, per worker, is something that we cannot continue forever, because it comes at enormous cost to other things that we could do with that money. We could pay for an Inland Revenue Department tax credit. We could retire debt. We could actually reduce New Zealand\u2019s Government debt very significantly\u2014by $100,000 per Rio Tinto worker per annum\u2014if we did not have that free allocation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Government has changed that free allocation, from being phased out completely by 2030 to phasing out at 1.3 percent per annum. Under the current legislation\u2014and we do have a good emissions trading scheme already in law in New Zealand\u2014[Interruption] We do, and indeed the free allocation under that existing legislation has already been criticised by Dr Suzi Kerr as being too generous. She says that it is already too generous at an 8 percent per annum phase-out after 2018. We gave people 10 years, from the start of the scheme, when they would have a free allocation of 90 percent of 2005 emissions, and that rate would not abate at all until after 2018\u201410 years later\u2014which is when we said it would abate at 8 percent per annum. An economist like Dr Suzi Kerr says that, if anything, that is too generous to emitters because it comes at too high a cost to the economy: other taxpayers, effectively, are paying that cost. If anything, the existing framework is too generous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the National Government\u2019s changes here, I say that the Government is phasing the free allocations out on the never-never. They will virtually never be phased out. In 2050 major emitters will still get more than one half of that figure\u2014that is, $50,000 per employee, per annum, subsidy. That rate of $50,000 per annum by 2050 is plainly unsustainable for our economy. That is why Treasury warned us that by 2050 Government debt will go up by $110 billion, compared with the status quo under the existing legislation. Government members might decry those figures now because they do not suit them, but that is the forecast from Treasury. The reality is that if those free emission charges were being auctioned to emitters, that money would come back to the Crown, and the Crown would have $50 billion extra, plus interest, which would make $110 billion by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe heard Dr Smith say that what the Labour Party had proposed was ridiculous. Well, I tell Dr Smith to look at the minority report, and look at the graph there, which is reproduced from the United States legislation, the Waxman-Markey Bill. I have a copy of it here, which I will seek leave to table at the end of this contribution. It shows a rate of phase-out of free allocation. It is very close to what is in the current Labour legislation, which is already good law in New Zealand. It is very, very similar. It has most free allocation being phased out by 2030. By then, free allocation will be down by about 66 percent, according to that graph, whereas in New Zealand we will get out to 2050 and major emitters will still get free allocation of more than half of their emission rights. It will be free to them, but it is not free to the country; it is paid by other taxpayers. Other businesses that are not getting free allocation will pick up the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDr Smith said in the House today that most of the free allocation will be going to agriculture, as if that is a sufficient answer. Why? The theory that underlies free allocation is that without it we would lose production, which would go overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782c16f21d894845861e65de2da2e032\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner adjournment I was describing how the level of free permit allocation is so excessive and lasts too long. I explained that under the existing Labour Party scheme, which is already in law, major emitters get a very generous rate of free allocation, which is capped at 90 percent of the rate of their 2005 emissions. They get that free for 10 years, then after that 10-year period their free allocation abates at the rate of 8 percent per annum, so that by 2030 they have to pay for their emission rights, just as all other members of the public have to pay for their emission rights, their electricity, and their petrol. At least by 2030, then, we would have equality across the economy, and by that time companies would have had 18 years to adjust to emission pricing, which seems a pretty fair transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn contrast, the National Party scheme has an uncapped allocation, so that emissions can grow. Indeed, I challenge the Minister to answer the questions that Brian Fallow posed in the New Zealand Herald, which the Minister refused to answer at question time. The questions are: because there is so much more generous free allocation, how much do emissions go up? How much later do they peak? How much extra is the bill as a consequence? Anyway, we came down from the general proposition to an example, in respect of Rio Tinto, of the annual cost of a subsidy estimated by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014in the only study that has had the involvement of Treasury; I think it was involved in a study for the Climate Change Leadership Forum\u2014to be $100,000 per employee, per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other example I will use is one that we referred to in our minority report; it is Methanex. Methanex uses gas to convert it into methanol. The company has come to New Zealand because New Zealand\u2019s gas price, even now, is lower than the average gas price around the world. Before Methanex came to reopen its factory in New Zealand, it came to the then Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues and Minister of Energy and asked what the effect would be on emissions pricing. I happen to know very well what happened at that meeting, because at the time I held those portfolios. I told Methanex that under our emissions trading scheme it would face the cost for its increasing emissions. Methanex understood that, and it invested on that basis. Its free allocation under the model we had, which is currently the law, gave it $9.5 million worth of free allocation under the existing scheme. As of tonight, that will increase to a minimum of $15.1 million per annum and possibly go as high as $80 million, which is an increase of over $70 million per annum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister is why New Zealand has not seen one bit of analysis as to why that increase is justified. We have not seen how much that will cost per employee. If it goes to $80.9 million per annum, the cost may well be close to $1 million per employee per annum, and it is just not wise. We have not seen one bit of analysis from the Government, on the part of Treasury or anyone else, that analyses why that is necessary. In reality, if that were not given to Methanex, it would do as it would otherwise have done: it would pay for gas, and it would probably share the cost of emissions with the gas producer. It would continue in business, but the taxpayer would not be poorer to the tune of up to $80 million per annum, which could well be a subsidy per job of close to $1 million per employee per annum. That is just absolute nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5e7c1b8dbfd419c814f122d0b892f8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5e7c1b8dbfd419c814f122d0b892f8d\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E For those who are listening from outside this Chamber, I say that tonight we are debating the Government\u2019s proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme. The Government\u2019s proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme are, fundamentally, about weakening the emissions trading scheme and reducing the price signal that the emissions trading scheme sends through to the economy. I think it is an extraordinary night to be discussing the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, given the news that has come through tonight that the Liberal Party in Australia is currently tucked away in a caucus meeting of all of its MPs, who are looking at some proposals from the Australian Labor Party to give $8 billion to greenhouse gas polluters in Australia. The Australian Labor Party Government\u2014the Federal Government\u2014has put a proposal to the Australian Liberal Party that would dramatically weaken its scheme. Tonight we are also looking at a proposal from the Government to weaken the price signal and emissions trading scheme dramatically in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is an amazing night for another reason. Only today we were looking at a study in Nature Geoscience that looked at what is happening in Antarctica at the moment. One of the issues around climate change is sea level rise. Sea level rise is driven in part by the melting of ice sheets, particularly in Greenland and Antarctica. For quite some time there has been concern about the West Antarctic ice sheet. At the moment it looks like the West Antarctic ice sheet is dumping about 132 billion tonnes of ice per year, on average, into the ocean as a result of human-induced climate change and global warming, which is warming the ocean around Antarctica and resulting in a warming in Antarctica. At the same time as we are looking at a significant shift in our knowledge about what is happening with the Antarctic ice sheet, in this bill tonight we are looking at a proposal to weaken the price signal around greenhouse gases so that greenhouse emissions coming out of New Zealand will increase. It is extraordinary that on the very night that we discover that the evidence around human-induced climate change is building, we have a Government proposal to weaken the emissions trading scheme even further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI will also talk about a few Supplementary Order Papers. The Green Party is putting up a number of different Supplementary Order Papers, or amendments, to this bill tonight. A series of those amendments are in relation to increased transparency. Those amendments are important because under the Government\u2019s proposed changes there will be a dramatic increase in the free allocations given away to big polluters. There will be a very significant increase in the allocations given to big polluters so that they can produce greenhouse gases for free and the taxpayer picks up the bill. Within the Kyoto framework New Zealand is responsible for the increase in emissions and will have to buy carbon credits internationally, so any increase in emissions coming out of New Zealand will result in the New Zealand taxpayer being liable to buy those carbon credits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt will be a very significant increase. Of the Treasury estimates that were given to the select committee\u2014there were various Treasury estimates; they changed rapidly because Treasury did not have enough time to prepare properly\u2014one estimate was that Government debt would increase by $110 billion by 2050 as a result of the changes in this emissions trading scheme. That is, the increase in emissions would be so significant, and hence also would be the increase in carbon credits allocated to big polluters, that the taxpayer would have to cover the difference, and the difference by 2050, including interest, would be around $110 billion. Obviously that would add a significant amount of money to Government debt. Of course, this was from a Government that tells us day and night that there is not enough money to spend on the different kinds of social and environmental programmes that are essential to our country, but at the same time was willing to take on a massive increase in debt, according to Treasury, in order to weaken the emissions trading scheme, increase our greenhouse emissions, and increase our total debt on the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe problem is that, as part of the allocation of these free emissions, nobody really knows exactly whom these credits are going to. One of the changes the Government is making is decreasing the transparency around the allocation of all these free carbon credits. So it is giving away our money\u2014around $110 billion of it by mid-century\u2014to its mates, who are the big polluters, in the form of free carbon allocations, but it wants to decrease the transparency around the allocation of this taxpayer money. That is what the bill does. It makes those changes, so the Green Party is putting forward a series of amendments in order to increase transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhen we think about it, we see that it is interesting that at the same time as we are proposing in this bill to decrease transparency around the allocation of taxpayers\u2019 money to big polluters, we have a system of donations to political parties that is fundamentally not transparent. Basically, it is very difficult to know who is funding political parties. On the one hand, big polluters will be making large donations to political parties that will, at some point or another, occupy Government benches. At the same time we are pulling the cloak over the allocation of free carbon credits from the Government to big polluters. There is clearly a transparency risk in these two things combined. It is unacceptable in our country that we do not know which big polluters will be making donations to governing parties at the same time as those governing parties have control over the allocation of free carbon credits to big polluters. We are setting up a strategic risk of corruption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Green Party thinks that there is no reason to set up this fundamental risk of corruption. Why should we? New Zealand currently rates as the No. 1 least corrupt country in the world, and that is a great thing and something that we should be proud of. Why would we put in legislation a set of rules that opens us up to the risk of corruption when there is no need to? In fact, why do we not have a set of rules so that there is transparency in donations to political parties and, in this bill, make sure that there is transparency of allocation to polluters? If one is receiving support from the Government in the form of free allocations\u2014and this legislation allows it, as did the previous legislation\u2014then one should be transparent about it. What is wrong with having transparency around allocations? For that reason, the Green Party is moving a series of amendments in order to increase transparency around the allocation to big polluters of what is effectively taxpayer money. We think that if we are to have this terrible scheme of subsidising pollution, which this bill exaggerates even more than the last one did, then the public has a right to know who is being subsidised. To us, that seems a fundamental principle, and for that reason we will be moving a series of amendments around transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EFinally, I touch on the process around all of this legislation coming together. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Nick Smith, has made the comment that that $110 billion should not be relied on, and there is some contest as to what the $110 billion really means. I point out that in the select committee Treasury officials were so confused about the real impacts of this bill that we had to take a 20-minute break in proceedings so that they could go away and try to figure out whether they were wrong by $50 billion. We had to face a $50 billion mistake in the select committee. The bill had been so rushed through and had had so little proper consideration that Treasury officials had to request a 20-minute break from the select committee so that they could go and figure out whether they were out by $50 billion. My question is whether this is an acceptable way to make Government policy. I ask whether this could possibly be an acceptable way to make Government policy, and the answer, of course, is no. That is why the Government should take this bill away and get the work done properly, rather than rely on 20-minute consultations between Treasury officials and others to figure out whether they have made a $50 billion mistake, increasing liability on the taxpayer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI ask the Government to support our amendments to increase transparency in order to protect the reputation of the New Zealand Government as a non-corrupt Government. I ask the Government to consider the true fiscal and environmental implications of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002285b385b0c76a42e3aeb74360a5fc8016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285b385b0c76a42e3aeb74360a5fc8016\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I am quite offended by the implication and insinuation from the previous speaker, Dr Russel Norman, who said that this House may be opening itself up for corruption if this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill is passed. I think that all members should take offence at that. I note that he was trying to word it carefully, but the implication was quite obvious. It might make good headlines, but I for one was quite offended by it. However, I let the member speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere is another point to note while we are talking about independent analysis, which a member opposite recently questioned in his speech. The Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and any member of this Parliament, actually\u2014has access to all the analysis, studies, submissions, and whatever one likes from the two select committees that looked at this issue previously. In 2007 the Finance and Expenditure Committee examined the emissions trading scheme bill, and a special committee reviewed the legislation earlier this year. In terms of the latter committee, the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics did some substantial, in-depth work on most of the issues that are before us right now. If members want to take a static snapshot of where we are now, then I guess they are technically correct\u2014at least, the previous speaker was\u2014but actually all the information is available. As we said constantly during the select committee process, this bill rests on the work of the members of those other committees and their advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI shall now touch base on the allocation. The words \u201Cfree allocation\u201D were used by Dr Norman, and he talked about people\u2019s money being given away as part of it. We have to remind ourselves that there is a whole lot of free allocation under the existing legislation. That message is getting a bit lost, with some members trying to put the word out there that some vast cheques are going to be written. It was interesting that during the select committee process some Labour members were getting up to speed on their own existing legislation, although they must have seen the Cabinet papers when they were in the previous administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe have to ask why the previous administration even considered and brought in free allocation, and why the current administration is continuing it. The arguments were about the execution of it, its timing, and some other points that other members have raised, to be fair. It is quite simply because, as an exporting nation, New Zealand is very exposed. We are trade-exposed, job-exposed, credit-exposed, or whatever one likes. Yes, the previous administration had ambitions to be carbon neutral and all sorts of things, and other members have canvassed those issues, but the point was to put in a framework to get New Zealand out of the starting blocks. We wanted to have in place a framework and a scheme, to have in place a price for carbon emissions\u2014be it the marginal price, the full price, or whatever it is. Yes, we will be arguing for a wee while about the speed of it, but that is actually it. But the risks were also acknowledged. The risks were, quite simply, that if New Zealand was to do it without having some kind of compensation, or if the Crown was to keep all the units allocated to New Zealand, then if our major industries, our major employers, our major processing industries did not pack up and leave by the dozen, they would at least drive down or kill off their production lines. That is simple economics. Quite simply\u2014and the previous administration also acknowledged this\u2014we compete with Australia, mostly, with regard to most of what we produce, and if our competitors are not facing the same cost inputs that we are, they will be able to penetrate and sell to our markets at a lower price, or to take larger profits than we can. At the end of the day, who would be the loser? It would be \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D What is \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D? It is the Crown and the private sector, and, therefore, jobs would be lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe whole argument that we have heard today, and I am sure we will hear it again tonight, we will be quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85c76a2c4cd47338e5139bb1077d8ca\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: This is too simplistic for words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad18c8b17184f67b831b75c9b55b5d0\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: Quite simplistic? It will not be as simplistic as that member\u2019s history as a Minister, but we will not go there at the moment. I cannot recall seeing that member at the select committee; maybe she was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWhy is the free allocation there? We have got the 1.3 percent per annum phase-out rate in this bill. We must remember that agriculture alone has had an efficiency gain of about 1.5 percent per annum for the last 10 to 15 years, or maybe for even longer. People in the sector are doing it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMy point is, quite simply, that we should acknowledge what is in place already. Yes, there are these crazy headlines that other members are talking about, but the free allocation is about saving New Zealand jobs, holding on to what we have, and growing our economy. It is as simple as that. I cannot quite see why other members get up to try to argue that point. I am yet to be convinced. Let us have a debate about what this particular bill is putting in place, without, as some members are doing, ignoring what is in place now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0b5ae14452d4b9586ea58b1fc850143\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0b5ae14452d4b9586ea58b1fc850143\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I want to use this call to look more closely at some of the fiscal assumptions in the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. They are both huge and very much open to debate. Already in this debate tonight we have touched on some numbers that would boggle the minds of most New Zealanders and cause a great deal of concern and anxiety, because for every New Zealand man, woman, and child we are looking at thousands and thousands of dollars of potential tax liability arising from the change between the scheme proposed by the previous Government and the current scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn respect of this part of the bill I will take a couple of minutes to examine some of the assumptions behind that argument. To some degree, I want to take the Government at its word and run some \u201Ceven if\u201D arguments\u2014even if one accepts some of its presumptions, where does one get to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Government contends that the value of the carbon subsidies in this bill is only $50 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231fd02f9807c4f6ea2bfa7f6514dbe53\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Only?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a792bba8e0814837b51f81ea1df858f7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague remarks: \u201COnly\u201D, because that is a 50 with a lot of zeroes after it\u2014$50 thousand million by 2050. The Government has, as recently as this morning, reconfirmed one of the two great assumptions upon which that mid-range Treasury estimate stands, and there is now consensus in this House on the price path for carbon that the Government is using as the basis for its estimates. There is now a shared understanding that that price is $25 a tonne until 2013, and $50 a tonne thereafter, which is fairly parallel to the estimates made by the Australian Government. Of course, this Government is giving, in addition to the $25 short-term price, a two-for-one, 50 percent, \u201Cbuy now, get one free\u201D discount, which is kind of like Noel Leeming on steroids, but I leave that aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe key difference between the $50 billion, or 6 to 8 percent of GDP debt that was in the Cabinet paper of 21 September\u2014which was the basis for the Government\u2019s decision to proceed with this bill\u2014and the $110 billion, or 14 to 17 percent of GDP that Treasury and the climate change working group officials briefed the Finance and Expenditure Committee on, is not in respect of the price path but in respect of whether it is fair to include the compounding effects of the charge. That is something akin to the time value of money, allowing a cost of capital, and, of course, there is a broad precedent for doing so in the Government accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EEvery Government entity that has a capital asset pays a capital charge on that asset. It varies by premium on the Government\u2019s cost of capital. It is in the range of 8 to 11 percent, depending on the entity. It is charged every year. It is an expense on that entity\u2019s income statement, and it can be capitalised as a debt on the entity\u2019s capital account. So that is part of Government accounting. I see no reason why we should depart from the process of including in the forward cost estimates some reasonable assumption around the cost of capital. Treasury\u2019s version of that, as disclosed to the select committee, was that it gets the figure to around $110 billion cumulatively, including those capital charges or interest charges by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe are happy to have a reasonable debate about whether the result is $120 billion, $80 billion, or $90 billion, depending on what interest rate is used. Of course there will be variability, and that is why we asked the officials, when they were before the select committee, to show us the bell curve\u2014the distribution of those costs depending on the various modelling assumptions that they had put into their analytics\u2014but they could not. Both Treasury and the climate change working group could not explain what sensitivity testing, if any, they had done around those humungous estimates. That was of great concern around the committee table, although some were too polite to say. There is to this day, as far as we can tell, no bell curve of simulated probability distribution for those costs. We know that there are different variables that can be assumed. As Treasury\u2019s regulatory impact assessment unit said, the bottom line is that the quality of the analysis here is just not appropriate for a bill of this magnitude. I mean no offence to officials, who have had an extremely difficult job and have been working under extreme time pressure to get this bill through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo we are left with taking a most generous position. Let us assume away any need for sensitivity testing. Let us take the Government at its word that it will be only $50 thousand million by 2050 to ordinary Kiwis on their net tax position, not $110 thousand million by 2050. Let us give that one, for now, for the sake of argument, to the Government. What next? It is now common ground that the Cabinet paper of 21 September, the crucial Cabinet paper, was wrong. There was a typographical error in the text. It was not 6 to 8 percent of GDP but 14 to 17 percent of GDP equivalent. I hear people in TV-land or radioland asking themselves: \u201CDoes this matter?\u201D. Let me put it in context. When the Government changed at the last election, the total amount of net Crown debt was a couple of percent. The total amount of gross Crown debt\u2014that is, all the debt the Government owed around the world\u2014was equal to about 18 percent of GDP. It had been down to 17 percent but it came up to around 18 percent before the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo what the Government is essentially buying into here is a doubling of the current level of gross Crown debt in terms of relative impact on the Government balance sheet. That is a big number. It gives the lie to the Government\u2019s protestations that it cannot afford adult and community education, because that cost $13 million, not $50 thousand million. It puts the lie to the supposed blow-out on accident compensation, a supposed deficit of around $2 billion that is actually running at a cash surplus of around $1 billion positive. But, either way, that cannot matter so much, because the Government has just spent $50 thousand million of taxpayer money subsidising big polluters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut even then, for the sake of argument, let us give the Government the benefit of the doubt. The next stage of the Government\u2019s argument is this: it is not really real money. It is just play money\u2014think Monopoly. There is a problem with that argument, because New Zealand, the Crown, has ratified an internationally binding treaty obligation under the Kyoto Protocol. We all, collectively, owe it to the United Nations if we run short of net carbon credits\u2014period. Therefore, we will have a liability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4d1fb28b70460fb5cafbb714421b44\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697e225bb4534c628ee8d802a8972160\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I said \u201Cnet\u201D, I say to the Minister in the chair. The Minister is welcome to explain that; I hope he will take two or three calls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut even if it were Monopoly money, then the final stage of the Government\u2019s argument is this: because this will not necessarily be negative from a zero-tax position, we do not necessarily \u201Cowe\u201D it, but it might instead mean we are not spending it on something else, and there are two problems with that. Firstly, one cannot say in public accounting that this tax dollar goes to that expenditure. It all goes into one central pot, and it is incontrovertible, whether the number is $50 billion or $110 billion, that it goes out of that pot, and our net position will be that much worse off relative to where we would have been under the existing scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is then a second order discussion in terms of where we start from with our other fiscal assumptions. Any Government by 2050 will face hard choices. It will have a lot of retired people to support. It will have a huge need to invest in environmental technology and climate remediation and adaptation. All of that will have to be paid for, and that is part of the reason that we need fiscal flexibility at that point. That is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo this is real money. It is a real trade-off. It is at least $50 thousand million by 2050, which is tens of thousands of dollars, at least, per man, woman, and child. It really matters, and it buys us\u2014what? It buys us less than a 1 percent reduction in net emissions from agriculture and heavy industry\u2014less than 1 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment said that based on the analysis and the numbers, there is no way these provisions will achieve even the Government\u2019s own paltry target. Even on the Government\u2019s own analysis, even on the Government\u2019s own design, even on the Government\u2019s own target, by several independent authorities, it cannot and does not work. So why are we here on the eve of Copenhagen with great uncertainty still about Australia? Why are we passing this bill in urgency when it is a complete fiscal shambles? I will talk again later. The process has been a shambles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002229850b9d58e2469787c0b8cc4e4fed8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229850b9d58e2469787c0b8cc4e4fed8b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I want to expose for the Committee some of the double standards in the contributions that have been made by members. I start with Mr Cunliffe, who said that the allocations to industry are a subsidy. Did I hear him correctly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228913eef18bb24fd384888faaf8136158\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, indeed, they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225773e54cd8534db0aeae3f2e021b3161\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is very interesting. Let us go back a year. Just 12 months ago the Green Party was criticising the previous Labour Government for the amount of allocation it was making to industry. Do members know what the then Minister, Mr Parker, said? He said that these allocations are not a subsidy. Well, that is interesting. I have the numbers here of just how many units are allocated under the existing law, so when Labour allocates 654 million units of carbon\u2014that is what its law does\u2014that is not a subsidy. But when a change of Government occurs and we do an allocation then it is a subsidy. I want a member to explain why it was that when Labour\u2019s legislation provided for an allocation, Mr Parker very specifically said to the Greens that it was not a subsidy, but now it is. I think Labour members have to explain that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second point is that members have said there has been no analysis. Those were the specific words that Mr Cunliffe used. Well, I have a report from 20 May 2009 by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics. This joint report very specifically recommends that the most economically efficient way to deal with the issue of leakage is a production or intensity basis. In all the debates around the economy that I have heard in my 20 years, I have heard those two firms quoted more often than any. In fact, we said that there was some contrary advice. Last year we had one report from the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research saying one thing and we had Infometrics saying another. We said that this was an important call and a really big decision. We wanted to get the best advice possible so we sought a joint report. So when members say that there has been no analysis, I say that they have to look at the detail of that report, which recommends exactly the approach that is being taken in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe third point is around the issue of allocation. The first point to understand is this: the costs, no matter what way we cut them, for the first 10 years of the emissions trading scheme under the existing scheme and the new scheme are no different. Let me go through this very specifically. We have a softer transition regime. The Government said that there is a recession and the last thing we want to do is for an emissions trading scheme to snuff out the fragile recovery. We said that in those first few years we do want to take a softer approach. That means that New Zealander\u2019s petrol bills will go up by half the amount, rather than a bit over 7c a litre. It will be a bit over 3c or 3.5c a litre. In respect of power prices, rather than the price going up by 10 percent it goes up by 5 percent. There is a cost involved; that is quite true. The analysis shows that the cost of the change is $400 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EFor the next period from 2013 to 2018 this revised scheme costs less. Let me explain why. The members were very keen to quote Comalco earlier. When they talk about the phase-out rate, we should remember that in the current scheme there is zero percent phase-out of industry support from 2013 to 2018. So why is zero percent OK but suddenly then it is 8 percent? This scheme starts the phase-out at 1.3 percent per year and that does result in some savings. So over the first 10 years of the scheme there is absolutely no difference in terms of the balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe thing I find most interesting is this: I am pretty confident that this John Key - led Government will be in office for 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bcc4383a044e058a49fe5c56fc97e8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228649540d13f040eeb75204525f27c1fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite confident of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271fd3fe5bcb40aea228e9b41bf65168\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It will be more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91f4ea2bd604865bd0ea5459e24f209\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Mr Carter says it will be more than that. But it is interesting that the most controversial point in this bill is not about what the rules are for the next 10 years but what they are after that period. There is not much controversy about the next 10 years. Where are all the members\u2019 debates about what we are doing incorrect in that first 10 years? [Interruption] Mr Chairman?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8275bca59044194b6ec86778782cf9a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister has had two consecutive calls. You get only one opportunity for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00220e42649ea55e434ea360639a278b320b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e42649ea55e434ea360639a278b320b\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Speaking to your decision, my understanding about the ruling on consecutive calls was that it was about consecutive calls in a row. So any member in the House may take two calls in a row, and may have a number of two consecutive calls following that, down the track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97c9d5bc87d477f95a906daf3895020\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No. Let me read to you the leave that was sought. Well, the salient point is that members have an unlimited number of speeches of 5 minutes each, but not more than two consecutive speeches on each part or provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f1f328d9d243bfbf119d8179afe8ee\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Consecutive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076227e893fe405bbdcf6c463f0949bb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, on each part. So on the next part the slate is clean for members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022102d20f7d23b4094b31002a847509086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102d20f7d23b4094b31002a847509086\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek your clarification. It is the understanding of the Labour Opposition that members may take more than two calls per part, but may not take more than two consecutive calls per part. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212de9537b9eb49e5b4c657d35c8143f8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is what the leave that was granted states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eac70c87dad4db792e263383e5ecb60\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: So, for example, you correctly ignored my plea for a third consecutive call during my last intervention, but that does not preclude me from taking a subsequent call during this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d616cdee3254259831e36fa05078394\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. I just make another point here. The Minister in the chair, Dr Nick Smith, has raised the point that normally these rules do not apply to Ministers in the chair, because they are able to take an unlimited number of calls to provide explanations. But I am bound by the leave granted, which is in front of me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5030b10cde4a30b5d4decd9d8f5d64\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: But that was never intended to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f44689e3ade4236a92aeff05229d149\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: What I need, then, to clarify this issue, is for some member to seek leave that the Minister have more calls\u2014if that is the understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00226193f7f08284491ca3b8e828f8686e68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226193f7f08284491ca3b8e828f8686e68\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. There is a clear ruling, which we need to abide by because the Leader of the House put it in place. I want to be clear about the Minister in the chair: by your ruling, has he had two lots of two consecutive calls?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263cb672bbb954982b89c23f4a7f4b15e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, he has had one. I am abiding my interpretation of the leave, which is in front me. I had no part in passing it or even in its construction, so I am trying to interpret it. He had two calls initially, and because I do not have any other instruction I have applied a blanket interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2fbd76e75649fc9aa87814c8063786\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2fbd76e75649fc9aa87814c8063786\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Taking up what the Hon David Cunliffe said, I think it is the understanding of both sides of the House\u2014[Interruption] Well, Mr Cunliffe just said that speakers are allowed two consecutive calls, and, after that, additional calls, but only one call at a time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223511453fe9084356a514ff58061687d0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. Members can take unlimited calls but they can have two consecutive calls only once per part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e9f3c5703344688f1ed541c6140ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e9f3c5703344688f1ed541c6140ab1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am one who likes to engage in the debate in order to answer members\u2019 questions. It has always been the convention that the Minister in the chair can take more than one call. When leave was sought by the Leader of the House, it was to allow other members to be able to have more calls in the debate. We want to have a really good, open debate about the bill. I find it a quite extraordinary ruling that when the House has granted leave to broaden the scope of members\u2019 participation in the debate, you interpret it as overruling and constraining the convention about Ministers taking more than one call. When leave is sought, it is to extend the general rules that are there. I think it is a quite unusual ruling for you to imply that the attempt by the Government to extend the debating opportunities for members of the House also meant that the Minister\u2019s speaking time was going to be constrained. If that was going to be the unusual interpretation, quite clearly, the Government would have not have agreed to leave on such a measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae1f8d09d724ee791e20b6785ee7727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae1f8d09d724ee791e20b6785ee7727\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make it clear that, following a discussion internally amongst Labour members, we, with respect, think you have got the ruling right. I am not saying that because I am trying to make any sort of petty point against the Minister; I am saying it because I think the Minister, in his explanation of why you ought to take a different course, has misunderstood the reason for which leave was sought and granted. Leave was sought and granted for a relaxation of the rules in this case because there was recognition that there had not been proper scrutiny at the select committee of a big bill, that a big Supplementary Order Paper had been tabled on the day that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff8861557234b9c97b14d46d4f89650\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need to go into that stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270adebda0f940b78e6bdb0760b9570f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I am just saying we support your ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cc169653744a0dbb47de6a03eb484c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that, but I do not actually need it. I have in front of me some words, and I am making my best possible attempt to interpret them. Can I just say to the Committee that leave was sought to depart from the convention. All I can operate from is what is in front of me. I am simply interpreting verbatim what is in front of me. Members may need to consider that on future occasions, but I have an instruction from the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022f81cae08a9624e3699e8cb2eac17e64a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f81cae08a9624e3699e8cb2eac17e64a\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00224d3049d6ced943aaa6c4c62a0bd41729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d3049d6ced943aaa6c4c62a0bd41729\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know that I need any further assistance. I have made a ruling based on my interpretation of the leave. Does the member have new material? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e2d04359e84b55a38eb173cce91c03\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do have new material. I was interested in that leave, as well, so I took the trouble of visiting the Clerk, Mary Harris, in her office late this afternoon. She advised me that the leave meant that members had unlimited calls, but, subject to the ruling of the Chair, the Chair would allow no more than two calls taken together. In essence, she was saying that we could give as many 10-minute speeches as we wanted and as the Chair would allow. We were not restricted to one double call or two double calls. As long as we had new material, and it was a useful debate, and the Chair allowed the debate to continue, we could take as many double calls as we wanted, and the Minister could take as many double calls as he chose. That was from Mary Harris, the Clerk of the House, this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec38257636a4d79bc40fab136547fdd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, that is not what the leave says, and I have interpreted it as clearly as I can. I am doing my best. I will take a further call from some other member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab5d06fb7cb430d9f31081b2166dda3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab5d06fb7cb430d9f31081b2166dda3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I understand that you want to advance the debate, and I wonder whether you might, to clarify what is clearly a range of understandings of your ruling, be kind enough to read out the words again and repeat your interpretation so that we can all be of common mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84ded3e2b0f4ceaa993139c7ed1ca61\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is fine. I am happy to do that. The Leader of the House sought leave: \u201CI seek leave that for the Committee stage of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill members have unlimited number of speeches of 5 minutes each but not more than two consecutive speeches on each part or provision in the provision.\u201D Members may be aware that I have a little system here in which I record down the side of this paper when members have taken two calls, because I am trying to obey the leave that was granted. I am doing my best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b8037e002849d0b263a4f5e4adc0a7\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e3981e72b64077a042ad096b320448\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled on this. I will take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00228c1671b97cba4674a8c365e074891940\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c1671b97cba4674a8c365e074891940\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take my first of what I hope will be many calls in this very important Committee stage. I endorse the question that was put to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nick Smith, by my colleague, and I also look forward to the Minister engaging in this debate. We appreciate the engagement that the Minister shows the Committee in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will raise one issue first, because it is an issue about which we had a number of questions at the select committee. It might be seen to concern one of the less high-profile matters within this emissions trading scheme amendment bill, but it is about the changes for allocations to the fisheries sector. Members who were involved during the last Parliament in the emissions trading scheme that the previous Labour Government put through, will remember\u2014[Interruption] That is right; for some of us this is the third iteration of this debate. At the select committee we were swayed by arguments from the fisheries sector that despite the fact that no other sector would be compensated for liquid fossil fuel use, and because of the trade-exposed nature of the industry and the situation it was in, the industry was looking for the kind of assistance that other industries were receiving. The select committee listened to that argument; when the bill was eventually passed, there was provision for the fisheries sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EUnder the existing emissions trading scheme legislation, which the Labour Government passed, that allocation was given to vessel operators. That is to say, the allocation was given to the people who ran the fishing vessels, the fishermen and fisherwomen who were facing up front the costs of liquid fossil fuels and any increases that an emissions trading scheme might be imposing upon them. That seemed to be sensible. Indeed, from my recollection\u2014and I could stand to be corrected\u2014that is what most of the sector were arguing for. It seemed to be the easiest and most sensible way to arrange it. No one came to us or lobbied us after the fact to say that they believed that to be a bad way or the wrong way to do things. So we went ahead and did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EUnder the deal with the M\u0101ori Party, we note that the allocation to the fisheries sector has increased. But the big change\u2014and this is the matter on which I would really appreciate some response from the Minister\u2014is that the allocation now no longer goes to the vessel operators; it goes to the quota holders. That is a significant change for a number of reasons. I know there are pros and cons on both sides, but I am concerned about this change for a number of reasons. Firstly, not every person who fishes in New Zealand waters is under the quota management system. That means that if someone is fishing a stock that exists outside the quota management system, that fisher now gets nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec870e1df3e4a62bd30dd2d90023942\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the emissions trading scheme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220483312859f0411ba4055fd38990537c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: David Carter has just asked what this has to do with the emissions trading scheme. That is unbelievable. The Minister of Agriculture does not know that we are changing, under this legislation, the way we provide free allocation to the fishing sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658354c0ee57498d95276e831ff3155d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what you\u2019re talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283613ebb111e419097b5b4f9a8d044f3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I am talking about. I ask Mr Carter, please, to listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba92a5557994caa8a25fed01efc1c73\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Well, make it plain and clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229715035ffc6d40eb81072864fe6cf73c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, dear Lord! Someone who did not even realise that this provision is part of the emissions trading scheme might do well to listen, rather than yell at me across the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is that under the legislation there is a change by which the free allocation goes from the vessel operator to the quota holder. If fishers fish a stock that is not in the quota management system, they now get nothing. Under the previous legislation they did get compensation. I ask Mr Carter whether that is fair. That is fair? So if someone fishes a stock\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022026c6be23e78430b82f7996b4f310007\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fairer for the big end of town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221923ca0b68784c9e9e806804dd4c9de3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. For the big end of town it is fair, I say to Mr Carter. Fishers who are fishing something that is not in the quota management system face the same emissions trading scheme cost on their liquid fossil fuels as someone who fishes inside the quota management system, but they get nothing. Yet the person working inside the quota management system gets free allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is not only that, but aquaculture gets nothing. I ask Mr Carter whether that is fair. There we go\u2014Mr Carter thinks that is fair. Not only that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ddc03ed9864a8c8428d0565c0617ea\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Aquaculture got nothing out of that Government. You did nothing about it. Nine years of nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2b4b5864914f37b7a53c58742a3c8d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Carter to listen, because this is an important fact. Quota holders do not have even to fish their quotas to get the free allocation. So here is a free allocation that has been given to compensate those operators for an upfront cost of liquid fossil fuels, but if that quota is not fished and that cost is not even incurred, they still get the money. Oh, members opposite have gone very quiet now\u2014Mr Carter is now reading a very important document that he has in front of him\u2014because that is indefensible. If we believe that the fisheries sector needs free allocation, is trade-exposed, and deserves that free allocation, why would we not give it to the vessel operator, the person who is facing the upfront costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe argument we heard was that it damages the quota value. That was the reason to give it to the quota holder. But we can also address that by giving that subsidy for the liquid fossil fuel up front and thereby protecting the quota value. We can do that either way, and the officials told us that\u2014that it was one way or the other. But the way the Government has chosen excludes people who fish outside the quota management system, including those in aquaculture. I do not understand why the Government is giving it to people regardless of whether they fish their quota. They are not facing a cost, yet they get the money. I really want an explanation from the Minister on this matter. I believe it is much fairer to give that money to the person who is facing that cost, because that it is what it is for. It is there to compensate for any increase in liquid fossil fuels that the vessel operator may face, so why is it not given to them? It can be said that it will be passed on, but there is no guarantee that it will be passed on. I know a whole lot of people in the fishing industry who would say: \u201CYou\u2019re dreaming if you think this is going to be passed on to us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn some cases the quota holder and the fishing vessel operator are the same person, so that will not be such a big issue. But if this is a deal that the Minister had to do just to get support, then he should just tell us that, and I will sit down and never mention it again, because I know that this is not about defending one argument or another. I do give that promise; I say to Mr Carter that I will not mention it again. But if that is what it was, he should just tell me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222831148795194cc1a33e7bcf254526b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e2c30dc0f941a48221c4ddf120467e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right\u2014that is probably true. I cannot understand why the free allocation would not be given to the people facing the upfront costs, which also protects that quota value. We do everything that the officials told us they were trying to achieve in giving it to the quota holder, but it seems to me that this protects the big end of town; this does not protect the little single-operator fisherman who is trying to keep afloat, and who was facing a cost with the emissions trading scheme under the previous bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238fc7c1475144c4c9585c71e5ced60bb\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Leasing of quota. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4f04c27d2742d691d3b049ea59288d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right\u2014leasing of quota. He thought he was going to get some help under the previous bill. To be fair, that was put in late in the piece, and we acknowledge that. We were very much swayed by the very good submissions we heard at the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and the Minister responded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d06a54abe6a449f9e3b24cc32509522\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225defdb6404714a7f8d66deb635b76e2f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, we were. Why would it not be given to them? We heard some very impassioned submissions at the select committee from people who could just not understand. Everything the Minister wants to achieve could be achieved by giving the free allocation to vessel operators, and then everyone would be included. Then we would not shut out aquaculture, and we would not shut out people fishing non - quota management system stocks. More than that, it would be given to people who are facing the upfront costs. We are actually paying for a cost, as opposed to just handing over a cheque for millions of dollars with absolutely no requirement for quota holders even to fish those quotas. This is a genuine question, and I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb60341331024bbd901478cbb8c04624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb60341331024bbd901478cbb8c04624\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E In the spirit of the debate I want to respond to the points raised by Moana Mackey. The first thing that is amusing is the sudden love Labour has for the fishing industry. Let us just remember, when Labour introduced its emissions trading scheme bill, how much support it provided for the fishing industry. It was absolutely zip; absolutely zero\u2014not for the quota holders, not for the vessel operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620669f9243a4035a46c9dd7e2603bfb\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Where did the 50 percent come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225379fcbd6e714010bfcc987ba6679d96\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. The news release from New Zealand First said that in its negotiations with Labour it secured 50 percent allocation for the fishing industry. Is not that interesting? When Labour does agreements with other parties, as it did with New Zealand First to provide the 50 percent for the fishing industry, that is just what one does in Government! But now Labour is in Opposition, there have been all sorts of quite appalling accusations, and that illustrates the double standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe now come to the second question. My colleagues and I campaigned on a policy of increasing the allocation to 90 percent. The debate is whether it should go to quota holders or to vessel operators. The advice we had is that it is a relatively balanced call. Let me tell members the strong view of the M\u0101ori Party. The M\u0101ori Party did contribute to the debate. They said that in New Zealand about 50 percent of the fish are caught by foreign fishing vessels. The M\u0101ori Party had a strong nationalistic view\u2014I think that would be a fair way to express it, I say to Mr Te Ururoa Flavell\u2014that to give half of this allocation to fishers who come and catch that fish, mainly annual catch entitlement coming in, was not the support that the M\u0101ori Party wanted to provide, and it did make that strong submission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is also quite a strong and more principled argument beyond just that issue. The compensation for fishers is around a loss of asset value. I will tell members why. There is no choice about whether the fish is caught in New Zealand\u2019s exclusive economic zone. It is not like an issue like aluminium, which might be manufactured offshore. It is not like the issue of New Zealand Steel, where it might be offshore and there are competitive, at-risk issues. What we have here is an issue where the fish can be caught only in New Zealand areas. It is a loss of that property right, so in my view that is quite a sensible provision in this bill. But I just say again that it is a bit rich of Labour to be arguing about the level of support to the fishing industry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d17802b5ef44b62ad0b40c07edecd17\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t argue it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225213a191859242388a47550e7e9714a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when the record, I say to Mr Cunliffe, is that Labour was proposing in its bill to provide absolutely zip, zero, for the fishing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002277f8f3479b144f828be9b0da8aa5ff5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277f8f3479b144f828be9b0da8aa5ff5e\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take ACT\u2019s first call in the Committee stage debate. I suspect that this debate will continue for many, many hours. This is a very sad day for New Zealand. The Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill has implications for all New Zealanders, and it imposes a tax on all New Zealanders. The previous Labour Government passed its own emissions trading scheme last year, just before the general election, and that imposed massive new taxes on everyone in New Zealand. The National Government has an opportunity to amend that, to reverse the damage that it did. Although it has moved partially in that direction, it has lost a huge opportunity. The ACT Party strongly opposes this bill and will be voting against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI said that I expect this to be a long debate, and I hope to take many calls, subject to the Chair\u2019s indulgence. I hope to talk about the fishing industry and the impact on that industry. I wish to talk about agriculture and farmers, and the impact on that industry. I want to talk about the impact on small and medium sized enterprises, which are the backbone of employers in this country. They get absolutely zilch, zero, nothing. There is no free allocation whatsoever for them. I wish to talk about the impact on heavy industry. I want to talk about the impact on families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party spoke widely earlier this year on New Zealand being a place of no second-class citizens\u2014the haves and the have-nots. This bill will impose a cost of 10 percent extra on the electricity bill of every New Zealander. [Interruption] That is right. We are hearing 5 percent, absolutely. Labour was 10 percent. On 1 January 2013 the price of electricity will rise by 10 percent. Under this bill, National is putting up electricity by 10 percent. People have the audacity to come into this Chamber and talk about subsidies. Who are we subsidising? We are subsidising the owner of Genesis, we are subsidising the owner of Meridian Energy, we are subsidising the shareholders in TrustPower, and we are subsidising the shareholders in Contact Energy. From 1 January 2013 every single New Zealander will be paying 10 percent more for his or her electricity. If we want to talk about subsidies, we should talk about the cost to ordinary New Zealanders. We should talk about the people who are underprivileged; we should talk about the have-nots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that there has been discussion about Hone Harawira and whether he will rejoin the M\u0101ori Party. If Hone Harawira did not have an excuse to part company from the M\u0101ori Party previously, he has it with this bill. What do the people of Tai Tokerau get out of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support? They get absolutely nothing. Ng\u0101i Tahu walk away with 30,000 hectares of conservation land to plant trees on, and good on them. They are obviously very smart negotiators. But the people of Tai Tokerau, with the deepest respect, get absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIn subsequent speeches I want to talk about industry-based allocation. I want to talk about New Zealand\u2019s potential emissions reduction target of 50 percent by 2050, and how flawed that is with our unique emissions profile. We have heard a lot from Mr Cunliffe this evening about the submission of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and I want to talk about her submission. I want to talk about the science on which this bill is supposedly based. I want to talk about the level of inept regulatory investigation\u2014the fact that there was no proper study. There are many issues that the ACT Party wishes to talk about, and I hope we are still talking about those issues this time tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EBut before I proceed further I feel I need to remark on two comments made by the Minister. Mr Smith asked a rhetorical question of the Greens 15 minutes ago. He asked when was a subsidy not a subsidy\u2014when Mr Parker can stand up and say what the Labour Government was doing was not a subsidy, but the Labour Party has the audacity to say it is a subsidy now. I say to Mr Smith that there is actually a difference. There is a difference between the Labour scheme and the National scheme, and he knows it well. Under the Labour scheme the free allocation reduced to 2030, and from 2030 the emissions trading scheme became a massive tax grab. There was no free allocation beyond 2030. National talks about its scheme being fiscally neutral and it talks about the value given to big emitters. We will talk about emitting, pollution, and carbon dioxide\u2014and how I am polluting right now, it would seem, with carbon dioxide. Under the National scheme the big emitters essentially, we have been told, are fiscally neutral. So it is good enough for the fishers to go out with allocations from 2030, it is good enough for every single New Zealander to pay more for electricity, and the scheme is fiscally neutral. If we are taking from ordinary working families and we are fiscally neutral, I ask Mr Smith who we are we giving it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ccf13df9d64b12b1d3b2b4e942bf4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe9389dd23147228ebabb51f1c37d98\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Smith says that we are giving it to forestry. Is that not interesting, because the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities came to the select committee and said that the emissions trading scheme represents the biggest confiscation of M\u0101ori wealth since the 1800s. [Interruption] Shame\u2014exactly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet us talk about the fishing industry; Mr Smith took a query on the fishing industry. He talked about the fact that Labour members were johnny-come-latelys to the fishing industry and that the industry was not going to have any subsidy whatsoever, and that is absolutely true. I understand that at the select committee for the last bill the decision to put in a 50 percent allocation was a last-minute decision, and the fishing industry was to get a 50 percent allocation for the 3 years up to 1 January 2013. National has trumped that with a 90 percent allocation. What happens on 1 January 2013? It goes to zero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at what the National minority report said on Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme last year\u2014and I am told it was written by the current Minister. If that is so, the Minister wrote, on page 6: \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s fishing industry exports 92 percent of its output, earning $1.3 billion per annum.\u201D It is an energy-intensive sector, I say to Mr Smith, with fuel making around 40 percent of the operating costs of vehicles. The bill provides an allocation of units to sectors such as meat, dairy, cement, steel, forest, and aluminium but excludes the fishing industry. This arbitrary exclusion does not seem well justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI wonder what Mr Smith says to his constituents in Nelson. I was in Nelson last Friday, as he very well knows, and I saw the Sealord factory. I saw that it employs 400 people. I was told that the processing that the factory does could just as easily be shipped off to China, as has happened at so many other processing factories that have been closed down, and he has the audacity to stand up here and say that this is an issue of property values. It is actually an issue of keeping the people employed at that Sealord factory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EBut I move on, because I have allowed myself to be distracted in responding to Mr Smith\u2019s comments. I would like to pay a special tribute to two people on the select committee, and I hope they hear my comments. The first person is the committee chair, Mr Craig Foss, because Mr Foss was given a hospital pass. He was given the job of doing the Minister\u2019s bidding and I feel very sorry for Mr Foss because I suspect I caused him a few problems. But Mr Foss was given his riding instructions and he was told to have this bill back in the House on 16 November, come what may, and that it did not matter if the committee report was not ready, or if the revision-tracked bill had turned up. I know that Mr Foss will hear my comments, so I pay tribute to him because he was given a hospital pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe other person I pay tribute to is Rahui Katene, because I would suggest that, probably, the overwhelming amount of what I know about this emissions trading scheme I have learnt in the last 6 weeks. It was interesting that the Hon David Cunliffe and Amy Adams both acknowledged that they had not previously sat on select committees. The reason I acknowledge Rahui Katene is that she had the courage and the wisdom to vote with the Labour Party, the Green Party, and me to allow submissions to be heard. Jeanette Fitzsimons is nodding her head. Jeanette Fitzsimons stood in on that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4836e956c5b4880bdf9ad97c3f26b3c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker I say that although I did not break up the member\u2019s speech while he was speaking, we pay attention to try to get titles as correct as we can. It is Dr Smith, not Mr Smith. I did not break up the member\u2019s speech. The next speaker will be Dr Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022398f06b4345e425d80907028f4a222fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022398f06b4345e425d80907028f4a222fe\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E That is a great choice, Mr Chairperson. I too, like Mr John Boscawen, take great pleasure in speaking on this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d63717fdf445bd8a54f579fe945523\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c08e15446a4f2aa4c6ebf9b2587d8e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and he asks why. It is because, indeed, it is exactly that. It is a very, very practical response to the previous Labour Government\u2019s legislation, which was totally impractical and out of this world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt was a little rich to hear the Hon David Cunliffe going on about Treasury\u2019s prediction of $100 billion. He was trying to verify that figure in as many ways as he could, twisting and turning and thinking that people would believe him. That is a bit rich, because it was the previous Labour Government that, back in 2005 and 2006, campaigned and said a billion dollars would come New Zealand\u2019s way if we took on its emissions trading system. What happened? We were a billion dollars in deficit. Labour\u2019s track record is one of that sort of predictability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229982aaedcfce47a6b3f0c1728b5c4627\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Weren\u2019t you out by just 60 times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a14ab5161d54e87a3e6d793737ab103\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cunliffe knows very, very well that this scheme will be reviewed at 5-yearly intervals and will be constantly monitored. He knows very well that there will be changes internationally that we cannot predict right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn this excellent Part 1, which we are debating today, we are introducing the absolutely practical and appropriate amendments that have come on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith, and the amendments introduced by Rahui Katene of the M\u0101ori Party. I say to Mr John Boscawen that he was right; Craig Foss made an excellent job of chairing the Finance and Expenditure Committee, under very, very difficult conditions. Indeed, he was right to say Rahui Katene and the M\u0101ori Party have been quite appropriate in their response to ensure that New Zealand ends up with a practical and realistic emissions trading system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EEarlier on this afternoon I recall that the Hon David Cunliffe made a comment that was a bit appalling. He said something about this generation of New Zealand\u2019s children entering its twilight phase. That epitomises the pessimism of the Labour Party under this scenario; it absolutely epitomises the conspiracy theories that Labour members are manufacturing and say might occur. Those theories are similar to the $110 billion figure, which is just absolutely unrealistic. The other thing that he said, which worried me greatly, when he was talking about Copenhagen is that Mr Charles Chauvel will be there as well, undermining the extraordinary leadership we have from the Hon Tim Groser in putting New Zealand\u2019s position. He will be there undermining and sabotaging it, and that is totally, totally unpatriotic to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that Part 1 implements exactly what the Hon Nick Smith mentioned earlier this afternoon: a workable, affordable emissions trading system. It will align New Zealand\u2019s scheme with the Australian scheme. I challenge Charles Chauvel, the Hon David Cunliffe, and the Hon Pete Hodgson to come into my electorate of Hunua, which I very proudly represent, to speak to my farmers, my growers, the people who work in glasshouses, the people in New Zealand Steel who employ a thousand workers, and to tell them how the previous Labour Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme would affect them. Those people are the backbone of the New Zealand economy. I challenge those members to come into the electorate that I very proudly represent and find out for themselves how unrealistic the Labour emissions trading scheme is. Those members would be thrown out on their ears. Those people in my electorate work for New Zealand and are the backbone of our economy, yet the Labour scheme would cut them off at the knees. Those Labour members do not go out of their urban safety and security to find out what it is really like for those people, and to find out how small, medium, and large businesses would be affected by Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that we can be very, very proud of National\u2019s emissions trading scheme, which we will progress in the next few hours, because it does indeed balance New Zealand\u2019s environmental responsibilities with the economic realities of the day. I see a snide smile on the face of David Cunliffe, and again I say to him that he should come into my electorate and tell my constituents that Labour would double the expenses for their businesses. That is totally unacceptable. A little while ago I was over in Canada, and we see the situation there where that country is just not prepared to introduce an emissions trading system, yet here in New Zealand, under a National Government and its coalition partner, the M\u0101ori Party, we are bringing in a highly realistic scheme. It is excellent that Part 1 balances things that will be acceptable to the majority of New Zealanders, and will keep viable the majority of New Zealanders\u2019 businesses. Indeed our scheme will be a leader over in Copenhagen, as New Zealand becomes only the second country that has actually implemented an emissions trading system\u2014second to Europe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccba5aed7de1437b8e036f7de45489ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccba5aed7de1437b8e036f7de45489ba\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am quite happy and pleased to follow on from the previous Government speaker, Paul Hutchison, and point out that he used two quite contradictory statements in his message to the Committee. On the one hand he had the audacity to refer to the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill and the idea of environmental responsibility in the same breath. On the other hand, he said that the presence of Charles Chauvel at the talks in Copenhagen would undermine the Government\u2019s position on its emissions trading scheme. That suggestion is ludicrous. If anything would undermine the Government\u2019s position, it is the bill itself and the attempt it makes to address our environmental responsibilities as set out under the Kyoto Protocol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn the same way, Craig Foss tried to say that we would potentially expose New Zealand industry if we did not get this scheme right. To a certain extent I accept that that is true, but I do not think that the Government, in pulling together this legislation, has taken seriously enough the other requirements that were put upon the Government to address our environmental obligations. In fact, this shambles has left New Zealand exposed as a whole\u2014in particular, our reputation is exposed. That has been a cumulative process. I do not lay responsibility for our reputation solely at the feet of the Government or of the Minister for Climate Change Issues, and I do not say that our reputation has been undermined solely by this legislation. In fact, it began as soon as the Government was elected. In its first 100 days we saw not only its about-face on Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme but also the lifting of the moratorium on the production of any new coal-fired power stations and the removal of renewable preferences that the previous Labour Government had put in place. We saw the scrapping of Labour\u2019s Biofuel Bill. That caused a loss of jobs that would have been generated in Waharoa, yet this Government claims to be all about generating jobs. Finally, we saw the removal of Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. I hear Government members claiming their emissions trading scheme was the mandate that National was elected on. I would like to hear how many young people the National Party told that this bill was the one National would be presenting, and that it would be the landmark legislation on New Zealand\u2019s response to climate change. I suggest that the Government has no mandate for this legislation from the next generation of voters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut it does not stop there; it is not just about legislation. The next battle to come is the Government\u2019s review of the Crown Minerals Act, and its complete opening up of schedule 4. But that is a debate for another day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220412081948af4ea78b2d672e089f5d83\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: And the petroleum strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8535b4efa9c4988b8e9d0f4fbf5ea3f\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And there is the petroleum strategy, as my colleague rightly points out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAll of that would be fine and good if the impact was isolated to the Government alone, and if this shambles reflected just on Cabinet, but it is not. The impact of this bill, which is primarily set out in Part 1, will affect two key areas. The first is New Zealand households and Kiwi families, whom this Government claims to protect via this legislation. The second is, ultimately, the environment. In every point that I have looked at, the legislation comes out on the negative on those two key areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELet me break it down for members. We have heard a lot of debate about whether we trust the figure of $110 billion that we estimate this bill will cost. If we translate that into a percentage of GDP we are looking at 15 to 17 percent of GDP by 2050. This is a crucial point of differentiation between Labour\u2019s scheme and National\u2019s scheme. Ultimately, Kiwis will pay. Kiwi households will pay and Kiwi families will pay, and they will be subsidising heavy polluters because of a lack of a cap and because of the ongoing subsidisation of those heavy polluters. Those are key points of differentiation between the two schemes. Does any of that matter? If we are ticking the boxes that were apparently set out for us as part of our obligations, does any of that matter? I think it is a very cynical view that says that the idea of our overall emissions and our overall contribution to climate change does not matter. Well, it does. This is not just about ticking boxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe have had clear indications not only from the New Zealand Labour Party but also from the Greens that this scheme creates no incentive for polluters to reduce their emissions. In fact, the New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development stated: \u201COverall, this proposed policy appears to greatly reduce incentives to heavy emitters to reduce emissions, increase costs of subsidies to them, slows down the timetable for reducing emissions and allows them to be increased in the meantime, by allowing production to rise (at a set carbon content per unit) without any clear cap on this.\u201D Again, that is a key point of difference. \u201CThe more production rises, the more the taxpayer must step in to pay for the additional emissions.\u201D Where is the incentive? Not only that, but where is the signal that New Zealand is taking its obligations seriously and not merely ticking the boxes? Those boxes are expensive and ultimately they will come back to haunt us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWho exactly will they come back to haunt? This point has been mentioned briefly. Who exactly will the 15 to 17 percent of GDP that we are talking about by 2050 fall on? In 2050 who exactly will pay the 55 percent of emissions from high-emissions-intensive industries that the Government will be subsiding, and the 37 percent from medium-emissions-intensive industries that the Government will be subsiding? Ultimately, it will not be Mr Foss and it will not be Dr Nick Smith. In fact, it will not be any of us in this House. I am the youngest member of this Parliament, and in 2050 I will be 70 years of age. I most certainly will not be here. I will not be here, but our country will still be paying the bill. The tab will be picked up not by us but by our children and our grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221205dc7c4664451a8b4b2d1116ff8692\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got children, have you? How old are your children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a855521df74460d878f4f5ca6044310\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite willing to make a hypothetical point because to me, the fact that I am not a parent does not mean that I will neglect the responsibility that this House has to the generations who are not here yet. Members on the other side of the Chamber may trivialise that point, but I challenge them to go out and talk to the younger people who will come through, and who will one day be their constituents. They will surpass them one day, but they will ultimately pick up the tab that those members are leaving. This system is not a user-pays system; it is a vote now, pay later system. It is cynical. The fact that I am willing to take into account those who are not voting yet does not mean that the argument is any less valid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e82fb0723c9f4547be3017ebd538d02c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e82fb0723c9f4547be3017ebd538d02c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just spoken, Jacinda Ardern, ended her speech by saying the word \u201Ccynical\u201D. Let me tell her what cynical is, and talk about the sorts of double standards that she exhibited in her speech. The first thing she said was that this scheme is awful because it has no cap. Well, that is very interesting. I have searched all the way through Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme, and did it have a cap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d823187d54e9473989bba13713925e13\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543dc86cf8f14de880e0a25eea483d33\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it did not. It did not. I can quote Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 repeated criticisms of the previous Government\u2019s scheme for not having a cap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second double standard is really interesting. It again illustrates the double standards and cynicism of Labour. Labour members say that this scheme provides big subsidies for industry, right? In this bill they are termed allocations, and all the way through the debate Labour has been calling them a subsidy. I am pleased that Mr Parker is to contribute to the debate, because when Jeanette Fitzsimons challenged him on the amount of allocations in his bill, she referred to them as a subsidy. She said that Mr Parker\u2019s bill\u2014the previous Government\u2019s bill\u2014which provided 654 million tonnes of allocations, had a subsidy. The Minister Responsible for Climate Change Issues at the time, Mr David Parker, said that it was not a subsidy; it was an allocation. My question for Mr Parker is why, when he is in Government and he makes an allocation, it is not a subsidy, but when National makes an allocation, it is a subsidy? That sounds a tad cynical to me, to quote Jacinda Ardern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen Jacinda Ardern said that this Government had done nothing practical about climate change. Let me give her a couple of examples. Over the course of the previous Labour Government, which was 9 long years, let us look at how many homes it managed to insulate during that period. Do members know that in one brief year we have insulated more homes\u201410 times as many homes in 1 year\u2014as did Labour in 9 years? Is that not an extraordinary, positive, practical achievement by this Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI can give another example of a practical area, in respect of solar water heating. I think that it is a good thing; I have a solar water heater in my home. Do members know how many solar water heaters have been installed during the first 12 months of this Government compared with the number installed during the 9 years of the previous Government? It is eight times the number. Hang on, eight times the number of solar water heaters have been installed in 12 months under National compared with what Labour achieved in 9 years, yet Labour members come down to the Chamber and say that the Government is not making any practical effort on climate change. I challenge Jacinda Ardern to a debate anywhere in New Zealand to talk about the positive things that this Government has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet me take another area of cynicism. She said that the National Government, as per its commitments, removed the thermal ban, and that that would put up emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e651c2e0ea44568bc56afa5e6b1a768\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022837d2826e14f4d0ca06041f0bc65f930\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. So I went to the officials and asked them for an estimate of the consequences of removing the thermal ban, and I asked how much that would change New Zealand\u2019s emissions profile. Do members know what the officials said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876ede708e8440d08fb977f5c0c401e3\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: What did they say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4e9cd47752479ea3c24120c27b3644\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They said that it would not make any difference at all, because it was so ineffective, so conditionalised. Again, we see that sort of cynicism from members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I will make is about biofuels. Again, it shows the cynicism of Jacinda Ardern, because on most things Labour members tell only half the truth. They tell only half the truth. The bit she got right is that this Government removed the compulsion for fuel companies to provide biofuels. However, we replaced it with an excise advantage so that we could encourage biofuels. But Jacinda Ardern refused to pick that up, and right at this very moment, a new biofuel plant is being built in Auckland because of that scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224647149500514085809a05acf2bd1d56\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How much is being paid out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279f8aac32c15436390e8468de7aadc45\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked how much. Well, let us ask this question: how many litres of biofuel were provided for in Labour\u2019s 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002205f50894c0f64c28add229a8e5d7c06f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205f50894c0f64c28add229a8e5d7c06f\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In my first contribution on this bill, the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, which will weaken\u2014in fact, largely destroy\u2014New Zealand\u2019s existing emissions trading scheme, I begin by running through a little bit of the fundamental logic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe science tells us that climate change is accelerating at a rate so frightening that we need to take urgent action. The only thing that will prevent accelerated climate change is a reduction in emissions. The whole purpose of a price on carbon is to provide an economic incentive to reduce emissions; otherwise we would not do it. Therefore, it follows, surely without contest, that if we reduce that price we will produce more emissions, and that if we increase that price, we will produce fewer emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis bill significantly reduces the price, initially for 2\u00BD years, with the two-for-one and the price cap. For agriculture it removes it completely for a further 2 years, and, in the long term, it abates free allocation so slowly that no one will face the full marginal cost of emissions within the lifetime of anybody who lives today. I am therefore very puzzled and deeply disappointed that the M\u0101ori Party, which would not support last year\u2019s emissions trading scheme because it was too weak\u2014and that was a defensible position; we just about went there ourselves, but in the end we did not\u2014is now prepared to support a scheme that will raise New Zealand\u2019s emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI am struggling to understand how that could come about. I will quote from some of the reports to this House, and some of the statements made in this House by my colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party. First of all, I will quote from their minority report on the review of the emissions trading scheme and related matters, which was reported a short time ago: \u201CAt a fundamental level, there was opposition to an ETS which allows sectors to pollute and trade up to the Kyoto target, but which does not include incremental emissions reduction targets in its design.\u201D. Well, that is a description of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party\u2019s minority view mentions \u201Cthe subsidisation of the nation\u2019s largest polluters at the cost of households and small-medium businesses.\u201D But that describes this bill. The view goes on to state: \u201CThe M\u0101ori Party continues to oppose the introduction of an ETS on these grounds, and would do so more strongly if a replacement scheme were to be less effective\u201D. Well, that describes this bill. It goes on: \u201CWe remain deeply concerned about protections in the form of intensity-based allocations and subsidies, which again distort the market model by allowing protected businesses to increase their emissions without penalty, and to be rewarded for it.\u201D Well, that is the distinguishing feature of this bill. It continues: \u201Cthe nation urgently needs to grapple with the notion of sustainability and the increasing challenge posed by a changing climate system and pending peak oil to think and live differently; to live sustainably.\u201D Kia ora. It states: \u201CThe resources of Papatuanuku are finite.\u201D Kia ora. It also states: \u201Cwe need to be focused on decreasing domestic emissions.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI now move on a few weeks to the first reading of this bill, and to a speech made by a member of the M\u0101ori Party. It states: \u201CThe M\u0101ori Party has consistently raised our call for an emissions trading scheme to be effective, fair, and transparent.\u201D, and \u201Cno sectors will receive more free units than necessary\u201D. It goes on: \u201CWe do not support subsidisation of the nation\u2019s largest polluters at the cost of householders and small to medium businesses.\u201D, and \u201Cits purpose must be to transform the economy\u201D. It also states: \u201CThe nation urgently needs to grapple with the notion of sustainability and the increasing challenge made by a changing climate system and pending peak oil to think and live differently.\u201D The Green Party strongly endorses all those statements by the M\u0101ori Party, and that is why we are puzzled and deeply saddened\u2014we cannot figure out what changed their minds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere is not a single measure in this bill that improves environmental outcomes, compared with the existing law, or that leads to lower emissions. There are a number of ways\u2014three principal ways\u2014in which this bill will lead to higher emissions. The first and most serious way is the intensity-based allocations, which means that no industry with any amount of free allocation will ever face the full marginal cost of carbon as it grows its business. The second reason is that the price cap for 2\u00BD years and the two-for-one deal significantly reduces the cost and, therefore, will lead to higher emissions. The third reason is the much slower phase-out. We accept that it starts earlier, which is a good thing, but over the long term it is a very slow phase-out. We could argue a fourth reason\u2014that agriculture is protected 100 percent for a further 2 years before it faces anything at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in the bill that compensates for this environmental harm. So I looked at the agreement between the parties to see whether there was anything there to compensate for this environmental harm. There are four matters, but they are trivial compared with the harm that this bill does. There is another $24 million for the insulation of low-income houses, and that is great, but the existing insulation scheme has seen 75 percent of the money, so far, go into low-income, community service - card houses, and there is plenty more in the ring-fenced fund. So that $24 million will not make any difference to the number of the low-income houses insulated until year 4. In year 4 it will add to the total of $323 million, but in year 4 there will be another Budget appropriation anyway. So I think the M\u0101ori Party got a bit duped over that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe second thing is the partnership to plant forests. That is a great idea. The Green Party is working on a slightly expanded version of that idea, which will be announced shortly. It is an excellent idea to plant more native forests on conservation land, but we do not have to destroy the emissions trading scheme to do it, surely\u2014it is a good idea anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThirdly, there is a national policy statement on biodiversity. What was it that the Green Party negotiated\u2014and it was gazetted\u2014last year with Labour as part of the emissions trading scheme agreement? It was a finite date for a national policy statement on biodiversity to be in place by\u2014I ask Mr Parker whether it was February 2010 or February 2011. Anyway, I say to National that it is already gazetted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe current Minister has said that he does not intend to do that. Now he does; now he has a new agreement that he will do it. That is good, but it is not progress. That is going back to the status quo\u2014it is anti. Finally, there is a 6-month delay in the abolition of the funding for environmental education. Well, I do not think that will employ many teachers or train very many kids for very long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFor some years Green Party members have believed that we have common ground with the M\u0101ori Party in our commitment to Papat\u016Banuku. So I am deeply sad that all these goals, all these fine words in the House, and all these fine words in the reports of select committees have been traded away for 30 pieces of silver and many promises of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022147f309d93304dcf9bdf3d2e6259acb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022147f309d93304dcf9bdf3d2e6259acb2\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou huri noa i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare e hui komiti nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Good evening. I am delighted to take a call to speak on Part 1 of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, and, in particular, in contrast to the previous speaker, Jeannette Fitzsimons, I would like to commend the M\u0101ori Party. I would like to congratulate and thank the M\u0101ori Party for being prepared to see that it needed to negotiate an outcome that was in the best long-term interests of Aotearoa New Zealand; that it was able to see that a balance needed to be struck between the environment and the economy, and that it understands that being in Government is a hard and difficult task and that we do have to negotiate the best possible outcomes out of a range of many difficult and complicated choices. So I congratulate the M\u0101ori Party, because it has been prepared to engage with the hard issues. It has been prepared to be open to a wider constituency, to listen to those people who voted it into Parliament, to hear what they have to say, and to represent those issues in its negotiations with the Government, which is what its responsibility as a coalition partner is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has been far from race based. It has been concerned with the implications for all New Zealanders while taking particular account of concerns raised with them by iwi and M\u0101ori organisations. It is committed to the growth of the independent wealth of iwi and hap\u016B, and, far from being interested in seeing the tax burden grow, the M\u0101ori Party wants to see iwi grow their own wealth so that they can contribute to the well-being of their own wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B. It is not prepared, as perhaps those on the other side of this Chamber are, to condemn M\u0101ori to perpetual dependency on the State. So, yes, the M\u0101ori Party has been prepared to step up. It has been prepared to see the long-term possibilities for iwi and M\u0101ori organisations to be engaged with the Government in making\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de94d653286f41c4bd9fe11a9890f97d\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a sell-out, and you know it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4f4e4f7ac64443d87160e1ab7b56293\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: No, actually. I do not know it, I say to Mr Lees-Galloway. I do not stand up here and talk nonsense. I talk from having a thorough and deep background with the very people who have been in negotiation with this Government, and I am proud of this Government\u2019s willingness to do more than talk and patronise, as the previous Labour Government did for 9 long years, condemning M\u0101ori people to be dependent on the State for ever and a day. This Government is not prepared to do it, and its coalition partner is not prepared to do it, so you can sit there and make snide and smug remarks about a people in a community\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a36ee343808463c91986ef4cf3fed03\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the member in full flight, because she was quite passionate in her speech, but she brought you into the debate, and as you well know that is not acceptable in the Chamber. She needs to refer to members on the other side by their full name or their title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225646203a28684b9798f5b01f1696ef4d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for those comments and he is correct. It was a free-flowing debate and I did not take exception, but I ask the member to refrain from bringing the Chair into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46ffaf0a4114b95b606012be3eddf05\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies to the Committee and to yourself for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EI move on from congratulating the general courage of the M\u0101ori Party to the particular and specific contribution that the honourable member Rahui Katene has made in tabling an amendment that would add new clause 5B to Part 1. I congratulate her because the amendment reflects a very detailed and considered approach. It advances the development of Treaty clauses that we have hitherto seen, in its specificity and in its application to particular parts of this legislation. It reflects the commitment moreover of iwi to work with the Government to ensure that the law can be fairly applied. So rather than talk about iwi involvement, this Government, together with its coalition partner, has been prepared to legislate for iwi involvement, to see the value that they have to contribute, and to understand that they want to be included partners in the designing and negotiating of what is best for our country, and not to be left, as the previous Government often left them, in litigious situations, arguing to the Government that their case be heard. So I congratulate Rahui Katene on that amendment and on the other amendments she has tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s amendments also provide for the involvement of iwi and M\u0101ori organisations where they are likely to have an interest. Those interests range from the developing of Orders in Council to consulting on the pre-1990 forest land allocation plan to the fishing allocation plan. The amendments describe how a review panel is constituted and provide for membership by someone who is knowledgable about, and experienced in, the application of tikanga and the Treaty of Waitangi. They talk about the need for the terms of reference for those reviews also to pay heed to the Treaty of Waitangi. They talk about regulation-making powers in relation to eligible agricultural activities. Iwi and M\u0101ori organisations have an interest in all of those issues. They are committed to developing their own wealth, as I was saying previously, before I was stopped in the full flow of my passion for this endeavour on behalf of iwi and M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThe legislation generally, and these amendments in particular, pave the way for something new in New Zealand. They pave the way for the possibility of having an authentic Aotearoa New Zealand, in that these provisions allow for iwi and M\u0101ori to be involved in the application of regulations and legislation to the particular activities that give iwi and M\u0101ori the potential of having a base that will, in turn, allow them to look after their own people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EFinally, I reiterate that this legislation, and these amendments in particular, reflect this Government\u2019s willingness to work with its coalition partner. Ng\u0101 mihi ki te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, ki a koutou katoa, e t\u016B tautoko ana, e whai kaha ana ng\u0101 tikanga e p\u0101 ana ki a t\u0101tou te iwi M\u0101ori, ar\u0101, ng\u0101 iwi M\u0101ori. I thank the M\u0101ori Party for being prepared to support iwi and M\u0101ori in having their voice heard, in being participants in the making of laws that seek to put the best process and advice in place, that in turn, we believe, will lead to the best outcomes, and that recognise that iwi and M\u0101ori have a part to play in the navigation of this country and are not simply passengers and victims. We are interested in navigation, and we will continue to oppose the Opposition, which does not see that as being a valuable and viable part for iwi and M\u0101ori to play. Hoi an\u014D r\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225c74dd4f2a484f2e89e1b940f809e9bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c74dd4f2a484f2e89e1b940f809e9bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I commend my colleague Hekia Parata as a new member of Parliament who has made a great contribution not just in this debate but in terms of getting her head around one of the most complex issues within Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI have long had a deep respect for Jeanette Fitzsimons. She is a person who is well informed around this issue, and I owe it to her to respond to some of the points that she raised in the debate. I say to Jeanette Fitzsimons that I have for many years enjoyed her input and debate around these issues. However, I will challenge the member, who prides herself on accuracy and understanding such issues, on a number of claims that she made. The first thing to address is the comment that there is not a single measure in this bill that will improve environmental outcomes. Let me just quickly, in the short 5 minutes I have, take her through a number. First, transport will be entering the sector 6 months earlier than the existing scheme\u2014that is, on 1 July next year. But I take the view that the benefits of the reduction in emissions are directly proportional to the price. So that is the first example of where there is a benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second one, and this is important, is that under the modified emissions trading scheme a significant number of industries get fewer allocations or no allocations under the more principled, in my view, approach to the allocation. Let me explain why. Under the existing scheme it just says \u201C90 percent of 2005\u201D, and then there is a threshold that was proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4cbca66be9846fea5135a5645ad145f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: The cap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5256b1fbc5d4083bb11fe84833d7b93\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, let us be clear. To get an allocation one had to meet the competitiveness test that one is industry-exposed, and one had an absolute to meet. A number of companies that were expecting to receive an allocation under the existing scheme whose intensity\u2014that figure of 800 tonnes per $1 million and 1,600 tonnes\u2014meets neither of those, and that under the existing scheme would get an allocation, would not get one under this scheme. It is also true that a number of companies\u2014a substantial number\u2014that would have got a 90 percent allocation under the existing scheme will get 60 percent under this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348e20249fd7487a9820873a183759da\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve been lobbying you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250d232c908d5430d9a232fa8c46c44e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They have been lobbying me very, very heavily to try to get in. In fact, the actual number of allocations, according to the estimates determined by our officials, is actually the total allocations to industry and are less under this scheme than what they are in the existing scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe fourth point I would make is with regard to the issue of tree weeds. I think we have made in this bill an improvement for the environment by not discouraging the removal of tree weeds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206adb7634e6043df9008369a90662de8\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: We agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73ae183414c4c42ac211c1e0ad7ebb5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member said there is not a single provision in this bill that is good for the environment. That provision is good for the environment, and that absolute statement is not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also make a point to the member on the issue of the national policy statement on biodiversity. It is an interesting history. Labour promised it in 1999, but did not deliver. It promised it in 2002, but did not deliver. It promised it again in 2005, but did not deliver. So for Ms Fitzsimons to be saying that Labour agreed, in the dying days of its Government, to a national policy statement on biodiversity is, I am sorry to say, a bit weak. We have been in Government for over 12 months. The very specific agreement we have with the M\u0101ori Party is that we will have a Cabinet paper to set up a formal process for establishing that national policy statement in March of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to respond to Jeanette Fitzsimons on is the statement that Cabinet voting an additional $24 million for home insulation makes no difference. Well, I really think that is unfair and untrue. Let me explain exactly what the Government has done in its agreement with the M\u0101ori Party. The problem that the Minister in charge of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, Gerry Brownlee, has at the moment is that the uptake of the scheme is far faster than anybody projected. That is a good thing. We are getting more homes insulated earlier. But the difficulty is that at the moment we have fixed-year appropriations\u2014the $323 million is a fixed amount per year. So the decision we made in Cabinet was to change that, so to have a fixed amount over 4 years\u2014and with the agreement with the M\u0101ori Party\u2014a further $24 million will be put into that fund over those 4 years. That is a commitment to an extra 8,000 homes, and I say that every member of this House should thank the M\u0101ori Party for that initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00229f6e0048f74d4f4d9ae7c953ac679c7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f6e0048f74d4f4d9ae7c953ac679c7a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Let me take the Minister for Climate Change Issues back to his remarks before the dinner break as we began the Committee stage of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The Minister took us through the brief history of climate policy in New Zealand. I will not do that because it is a long history and it has already been done, but he did say that we have had a very long debate and there comes a point in a country\u2019s history where we need to make progress. I agree with him on that. We have had a long debate and there comes a point where we need to make progress; it is just that that point is not now. This is not progress, as I will spell out in a few more minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe one thing that needs to come out of the very long debate is the fact that this Parliament has not yet reached anything resembling consensus on climate change. It took us 20 years to reach consensus on superannuation and it took us quite a long time on other issues that are difficult matters to resolve. We have not done it on climate change. So I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Nick Smith, that it would be good style if he were to get up and give his response to the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of my colleague the honourable Charles Chauvel. It sets forward a process by which we might alter legislation and alter targets through an independent body as the years go by. That might be a way that we can move towards something resembling a collective agreement. While we are at it, the Minister for Climate Change Issues ought to also respond to the Green Party Supplementary Order Paper that specifically asks for transparency around allocation. If there is not transparency around allocation and we do not end up with transparency around electoral donations, then it is too easy to draw the conclusion that an allocation has been made as a consideration for a donation. That would be a really sad time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI thank the Minister for his introductory remarks. I suggest that if we are ever in the future to move towards a more bipartisan approach\u2014and we certainly have not got there yet\u2014to climate change than we have been able to achieve, for whatever reason, between 1997 and today, then a response to the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of Charles Chauvel, which he mentioned in his first speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa9774a5d6f4e8dad6de712e98d48ef\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: He said you\u2019d repeal this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d47b3d6f854574a35f14aae277b125\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, indeed\u2014that is our position. The point I am trying to make is that we do not have agreement across the House. I will spend the rest of the debate explaining why that is, but I am saying now that my colleague the honourable Charles Chauvel has put forward an idea that I think the Committee should look at. It is an idea that I think the Minister may want to respond to tonight, tomorrow, or whenever it might be, and while he is at it he might also want to respond to the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Greens regarding transparency of allocations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe other comment that the Minister made in his introductory remarks, and he has made a lot of play about this, is that New Zealand is now a little closer to Australia on climate change issues than we used to be, and that as we speak Australia is contemplating putting legislation through the Senate, etc., that, the Minister said, is a little weaker than the New Zealand legislation that he has put in front of the House. The Minister challenged Labour members to say what they thought about that, given that that legislation is in the name of the Australian Labor Party. He asked whether we would dare criticise it. Well, we most certainly do, and here is the history behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIn the last decade Australia has been governed by a centre-right Government and New Zealand has been governed by a centre-left Government, which has had the Greens at its flank right through that time. As a result of that, after many, many attempts to get the numbers in the House, we finally got legislation through in the name of the Hon David Parker. It was an emissions trading scheme that was much stronger than the one we have now. I used to be involved in climate change negotiations internationally through the 1990s, and, without telling too many secrets or stories, I can tell members that what happened in the 1990s was that New Zealand was way ahead of Australia\u2014way ahead. Australia is catching up from a low position. The Rudd Government is progressive, whereas this Government is moving back from a more advanced position and is, therefore, regressive. We are still ahead of Australia, but only just. That is a shame. What is more, because Australia negotiated a better deal at Kyoto in 1997, it is, in fact, not behind in its emissions record; we are. We have some things to do, and the reason why the Parker emissions trading scheme should remain on the books is that it comes into play earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that the Minister has a problem, and I will read it out. The problem is a quote in Hansard from Rodney Hide about a year ago, and it goes like this: \u201Cthat is, that the entire climate change and global warming hypothesis is a hoax, that the data and the hypothesis do not hold together, that Al Gore is a phoney and a fraud on this issue, and that the emissions trading scheme is a worldwide scam and a swindle.\u201D That is from National\u2019s coalition partner, that is why the Minister has been delayed by months because of the select committee process, and that is what drove the Minister into the arms of the M\u0101ori Party. I am sorry that there was not room between National and Labour to get a deal. We assert afresh that we negotiated in good faith. We were certainly prepared to move, but we were certainly not prepared to move as far as the legislation we have in front of us now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EHowever, I think there is agreement that the emissions trading scheme as a tool is the best way forward, and that is a point of agreement. That comes from someone who introduced a carbon tax into the policy mix en route to an emissions trading scheme, I would assert. That did not get the numbers finally in 2005, and I think that much of it might be something that is pretty much set in stone. From here on, however, things get bad. I will not have time to lay them out in the remainder of my 10-minute introductory remarks, but I will say that the one thing that disappoints me perhaps more than anything else about this legislation is that this Government has no confidence in our economy. It has no confidence in New Zealand business, it has no confidence in our renewable energy industries, it has no confidence in the innovation of our agritech sector, and it has no confidence in the high-tech end of the New Zealand economy. It is as if we must freeze our economy here and now in 2009, and tourism and dairying will do it for us. Well, they will not be sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe Kyoto Protocol is a significant driver for economic advantage. It is a significant driver for a phrase that the Government does not like, but here it is: economic transformation. We have taken the driver off. Michael Porter would say: \u201CDon\u2019t do that.\u201D and many other growth economists would ask whether we were nuts, but we have done that. We have taken the driver off some of the smartest people in our country, and they are aghast because they were ready to take advantage of a tougher, bigger, better emissions trading scheme. It is not a point of view that is shared by the ACT Party. I acknowledge that, and I acknowledge those members\u2019 consistency. I say, and it is not a one-liner that I trot out too often, that I think that ACT is consistently wrong. But I say to National, which does understand economic development, that it is making a very serious mistake because it is freeze-framing us. In my view, it is freeze-framing us in a way that I just do not think is tolerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIn the case of agriculture, if we are improving our intensity by 1.5 percent without any drivers, why are we saying that just 1.3 percent from now on will do? I ask whether it is lost on National members that we have the finest agritech sector in the world. We know more about plant and animal breeding than any other country I know, with the possible exception of Australia, and we already had an ability to make those changes without any drivers. Yet, somehow or another, we are saying to people in the agriculture sector that they can forget about it. We are saying that it is fine and dandy and they can put the money in their pocket if they want to do it for productivity or food conversion efficiency reasons, but they should not worry about the environmental stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThat is not a tolerable position\u20141.3 percent is derisory. Making it 1.3 percent is saying to agriculture that it should just go backwards a little bit and that will be OK, but it is not. It is not OK for productivity reasons, it is not OK for environmental reasons, and it is not OK for reputational reasons. The food miles debate is not going away. Other countries will catch up with us sooner or later, and we will say that the emissions trading scheme that was passed in 2009 was part of the problem because it allowed us to take the pedal off the metal. That should never be allowed to happen. This country depends on primary production, good downstream processing, and selling into international markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002251c33fa51a8e4979ab97b35bce3e4248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251c33fa51a8e4979ab97b35bce3e4248\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00223d945277057446049bf2596dc233f28c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d945277057446049bf2596dc233f28c\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. I rise to take a call on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party basically to address our Supplementary Order Paper to amend Supplementary Order Paper 98. I do so on behalf of my colleague Rahui Katene, who did much of the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the passing of H\u0101wea Vercoe in my electorate over the weekend. I am sure that in the spirit of this particular amendment he was a very strong advocate for the Treaty. As we hold this particular discussion today, I think about his family and his people, and I think about him lying at his marae at T\u016Bteao i t\u0113nei p\u014D. N\u014D reira, kai taku rangatira moe mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[So rest there, my chiefly one.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is with a huge amount of pride that I stand before the Committee, knowing that through the efforts of the M\u0101ori Party we will recognise Te Tiriti o Waitangi and specifically set out the ongoing decisions on the Crown, which has an obligation to consult as we move forward in this particular debate. In recognising Te Tiriti o Waitangi I do so in the knowledge that the Treaty was effectively absent from \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENew Zealand legislation for over 135 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78ca6c556a5417db1bc089663def5a9\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did he write his own speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc58fb047824646a339db90b3d7bd3f\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: You will find out shortly, as long as you listen. Koin\u0101 te mate o te kore whakarongo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[That is the problem with not listening.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn 1975, the Treaty of Waitangi Act effectively incorporated Te Tiriti\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221145a9dc80574696855ef2422bd57fcc\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would like an interpretation of that comment please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744e7fd446e14687a7dc179f85348bd4\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: In 1975 the Treaty of Waitangi Act effectively incorporated the Treaty\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3afca32dce4477f9906aa3efb34d077\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is absolutely inappropriate for that member to say to you, Mr Chairman: \u201CThat is the point. You do not listen.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65636c1ace24ffea9df09fe4c2253aa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member asked for an interpretation. We have received the interpretation. I was comfortable with that, and I have asked the member to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e53456c0d2a49adb9db0ae68ce35323\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Is the Chairman saying that it is appropriate to include the Chairman in the debate if it is done in M\u0101ori, but not in English? That is the effect of your ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022905b1ad45a2c4d6a96e3174c7dcea6f3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have made a ruling. I want this debate to continue and to flow. I am allowing Te Ururoa Flavell to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a5dd7a60124898a70b515ac633424a\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: In 1975 the Treaty of Waitangi Act effectively incorporated the Treaty into legislation and delegated a role to the tribunal to determine the meaning of the Treaty and Treaty principles. Since that time, Parliament has included legislative references to the Treaty and provided some legislative guidance on the Treaty\u2019s meaning. Our Supplementary Order Paper provides a key statement, and this is important, which states: \u201CIn order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D I say again that our Supplementary Order Paper states: \u201CIn order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D In doing so, it falls into the category classified by Matthew Palmer as the \u201Crecognise and respect category\u201D, reflecting provisions that are often used in statute to ensure the Treaty is treated with the highest level of attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is another element to our Supplementary Order Paper that leads us on to further discussion, and that is to do with the wording \u201Cto give effect\u201D. Those in the House with a good knowledge of statute would be aware that this is found in section 4 of the Conservation Act, which states: \u201Cthis Act shall be interpreted and administered as to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D If members were to wander through legislation, they would see a huge colourful menu of clauses that effectively incorporate the Treaty. One objective of the Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind Act is the need \u201Cto give particular recognition to the Treaty principles\u201D. The Resource Management Act asks that we take account of the Treaty principles. The Environment Act requires us to ensure full and balanced account of the Treaty principles, and the Crown Minerals Act recommends that we have regard for Treaty principles. Basically, there is a huge archive of legislative activity in relation to the Treaty that has helped to guide the appropriate interpretation of Treaty clauses in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWithin this context it is somewhat bizarre to think that some parties still question the need for a Treaty clause, or that they are overly concerned about the fact that we were working on the Treaty provisions right up until the hours leading up to the announcement yesterday. We understand there is a wide spectrum of knowledge around this Chamber about what the Treaty means in practice. That is clear from the many debates in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFor the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party, the requirement to provide due cognisance of the Treaty analysis and interpretation is something that we both value to the extent that it is one of the first statements in our relationship agreement. Our agreement stipulates that \u201Cboth the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party will act in accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D It has to be said that it has been a little bit disappointing that the National Party had some difficulty prior to this bill to living up to the clear aspiration to act in accordance with the Treaty. If there is ever an issue to which the Treaty principles should have been applied it would be the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Act. The reorganisation of Auckland governance would have been an entirely appropriate mechanism to enhance Treaty responsiveness. The Government did not use the opportunity, and that certainly brassed us off. But that is another story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Training) Amendment Bill is a chance to set the record straight, to pursue an honourable course of Treaty jurisprudence. I want to make it clear that our intention in drafting the Treaty clause is to provide for the ongoing engagement of tangata whenua in the scheme, and to ensure that the distinct situation of iwi M\u0101ori, including rights and interest under the Treaty, is fairly accommodated in the implementation of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to return to the notion of the Treaty principles and provide a lesson to all members across the Chamber, including some who might want to listen to this. In case there is any doubt, the Court of Appeal defines these principles as a relationship of fiduciary nature that reflects a partnership imposing a duty to act responsibly, reasonably, honourably, and in good faith. Secondly, the Government should make informed decisions. The Crown should remedy past grievances. There should be active protection of M\u0101ori interest by the Crown. The Crown has the right to govern. M\u0101ori retain rangatiratanga over their resources and taonga, and all of the rights and privileges of citizenship. If members are still unsure, they should consult the Waitangi Tribunal, which gives further clarity to the principles as partnership, fiduciary duties, reciprocity, the cession of M\u0101ori sovereignty in exchange for the protection of rangatiratanga, and mutual benefit leading to the duty to act reasonably, honourably, and in good faith. There should be redress for past grievances, and equal status for the Treaty parties. The Crown cannot evade its obligations by conferring authority to another body. There should be active protection of M\u0101ori interests by the Crown. There should be options, and there is the principle of choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI have gone on about some of these particular things, but if they are still not enough, there are always the principles proposed by the executive. They are the Government\u2019s right to govern, the right of iwi to the self-management of their resources, redress for past grievances, equality\u2014all New Zealanders are equal before the law\u2014and reasonable cooperation by both parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI have gone to a bit of trouble to spell out these legislative references and descriptions of the Treaty principles, because it appears that some members in this House are still not aware of the meaning. The truth is that we have come a long way from 1878 and the case of Wi Parata v The Bishop of Wellington, which suggested that the Treaty was a simple nullity because M\u0101ori tribes were incapable of performing the basic rights of citizenship. We are in a new enlightened time\u2014times that reflect the strength and survival of iwi who have advanced so significantly the debate on Treaty rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is extremely proud to have brought to this debate the crucial significance of the Treaty for emissions trading, and in particular the Treaty clauses about recognising our founding document and recognising that the Treaty is about joint responsibility and working together. The scheme also relies on regulations for much of its implementation. The Treaty clause will ensure that iwi and M\u0101ori are able to participate in the development of those rules. The amendments we have put forward clarify how the rights and interests of iwi under Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi, are to be incorporated in this legislation. They provide for consultation with iwi on matters under the Act. In closing, I point out that they breathe life into this legislation in terms of enacting the responsibilities of the Crown to incorporate the Treaty into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI thank my colleague Hekia Parata for her comments earlier with regard to the part played by the M\u0101ori Party. I thank the Minister for working with the M\u0101ori Party, and, indeed, my colleague Rahui Katene as we have attempted to forward our proposals specifically around the Treaty clause in the best interests of the nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8d006f9e0b54e27a67d7e11a7a9fbc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8d006f9e0b54e27a67d7e11a7a9fbc7\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak on three more amendments that stand in my name. They are Supplementary Order Papers 95 and 96 and a typescript amendment that does not have a number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 95 would remove from the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill the 50 percent discount during the 2010 to 2012 transitional period and raise the price gap from $25 to $100 a tonne, turning it into a true safety valve rather than a day-to-day subsidy, which is, frankly, what it is at the moment. On this side of the Chamber, we think that price caps are undesirable because they distort the response to the emissions trading scheme. The Kyoto-compliant market is already large. Participants in the emissions trading scheme, mainly companies worth billions of dollars, can already hedge their risk against substantial rises in the cost of carbon until at least 2012 by buying units on that market. So the transitional measure proposed in the amendments from the Minister for Climate Change Issues requiring only one emissions unit to be remitted for every 2 tonnes of emissions in the electricity sector would not necessarily reduce the impact on electricity prices, as the Minister says time and time again that it will. In fact, the European experience demonstrates that the long-term marginal cost of new generation does not change. So electricity generators will charge consumers the same amount, and effectively pocket the value of the emissions units they do not have to remit, at cost to the taxpayer. In principle, if the market is not trusted, then the Government should have pursued a carbon tax rather than an emissions trading scheme. But a cap at less than the market price results in a further subsidy from taxpayers to emitters and reduces the incentives the emissions trading scheme is meant to create to reduce emissions. Supplementary Order Paper 95 would remedy that position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 96 would cap free allocation. As we said in our minority report, we uphold the strong criticism that we heard of the approach in the bill of combining an intensity-based allocation that has no effective cap on either total or sectoral emissions with a very, very slow phase-out of free allocations. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment told us that this will lead to a significant increase in emissions, thus increasing the number of carbon credits the Government and, therefore, taxpayers will have to purchase. An alternative favoured by many of the submitters we heard is an overall cap on emissions. The lack of that cap will be a problem. We want to do away with the problem, which is what this Supplementary Order Paper will do. The absence of the cap weakens the incentive for emitters to move to being less carbon intensive. As my colleague Pete Hodgson said earlier, it is a sign of a lack of ambition on the part of the Government. We do not want to see this highly distorted mechanism retained in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am keen to hear the Minister speak on the Government\u2019s attitude to the Supplementary Order Paper to put the cap in place on free allocation, the Supplementary Order Paper to end the discount, and, finally, the amendment to prohibit the banking of non-forest New Zealand units during the transitional period. Dr Suzi Kerr suggested this amendment would be a good idea. It would prevent any New Zealand units issued during the transition period from being surrendered, converted, or transferred after 31 December when the price cap comes off. This will prevent people from collecting credits while the price of carbon is low and then selling them at a higher price once the cap is removed. As I said, Dr Kerr advised of the possibility that banking and trading free allocated credits taken with price caps could result in a positive incentive to increase emissions, or else could increase windfall gains to polluters. Surely, neither of those are goals that the Minister wants to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThese amendments taken as a package\u2014removing the 50 percent discount, putting a cap on free allocation, and prohibiting the banking of the non-forest New Zealand units during the transitional period\u2014are a neat solution to the problems that have been identified. I really hope that the amendments will be given due consideration, because they will undoubtedly, according to the expert independent advice that we received, result in a much better scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022327d1a7c752e4cde89a5fab266816913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022327d1a7c752e4cde89a5fab266816913\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I am starting to enjoy this debate on the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill because we are starting to get to the crux of the issue. We have just heard in Charles Chauvel\u2019s contribution that Labour has moved a Supplementary Order Paper to basically increase the price of petrol and power for consumers. Let us be very clear: if we remove the two-for-one-option and the price cap, the result is a higher power price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e27ea4d299649829f206893193c4051\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: As opposed to tax; he would rather tax them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839ddcc066e04e7ebea2d344701ed047\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have just heard an interjection from Mr Chris Hipkins. Members will be interested in this. On Sunday Mr Chris Hipkins put out a press release saying that New Zealanders were paying too much for their power, and that we needed to do things to reduce the power price. That is what he said on Sunday. Then Labour members come to the Chamber to debate this emissions trading legislation and move a Supplementary Order Paper that will put the price of power up even more. That is the problem with the Labour Party: it is all over the place. It is a shambles. We do not know what Labour members stand for. They cannot have Chris Hipkins say on Sunday that power prices are too high and must go down, and on Tuesday introduce a Supplementary Order Paper that will actually put the power price up. At least Mr Chauvel is honest about that fact. That shows the sort of nonsense that we have heard in the Chamber. Mr Chauvel is more thoughtful than Mr Hipkins. I suggest that he is a bit cross about the press release that Mr Hipkins put out on Sunday, which is an embarrassment for the Labour Party in the very week we are debating emissions trading legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhy has the Government said we need to soften the impact of the emissions trading scheme? It is very simple. In case members have not noticed, we are part of the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression. This Government has gone to a huge amount of work to try to get us back on to a growth path. The last thing we want to do is to snuff out that recovery with an overly ambitious emissions trading scheme, so we have made quite a pragmatic decision not to introduce it in one hit, and instead to stage it to soften the impact on households. I say to Mr Hipkins that the advice from officials is very clear. The advice is that to vote for Mr Chauvel\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is to vote for a higher petrol price and a higher power price. Every member on the Government side of the Chamber will be watching the way Mr Chris Hipkins votes, because if he believes in his press statement of Sunday, he will vote against his own colleague\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e43d026157e34f6a8311b8e26482b556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e43d026157e34f6a8311b8e26482b556\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take my first call on Part 1 of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I begin by noting that the Leader of the House, when he sought leave relating to the rules of this debate earlier today, sought leave for members to be able to make an unlimited number of contributions. I give notice of my intention to take advantage of that, and certainly to take a subsequent call to discuss specifically the Supplementary Order Papers that are before the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI begin this first contribution, however, by quoting from this issue I am holding of the New Scientist of 28 February, which talks about the fact that the world is clearly failing to reduce emissions. It says in its editorial: \u201CDespite the numerous warnings about extreme weather, rising sea levels and mass extinctions, one message seems to have got lost in the debate about the impact of climate change. A warmer world won\u2019t just be inconvenient. Huge swathes of it, including most of Europe, the US and Australia as well as all of Africa and China will actually be uninhabitable\u2014too hot, dry or stormy to sustain a human population. This is no mirage. It could materialise if the world warms by an average of just 4\u00B0C, which some scientists fear could happen as soon as 2050. This is the world our children and grandchildren are going to have to live in. So what are we going to do about it?\u201D. This issue of New Scientist goes on to describe a world in which glaciers have dried up, a world that is desertified, and a world with its human population of just 1 billion\u2014because that is all that that kind of world would be able to support\u2014concentrated in high-rise cities close to the North and South Poles and in countries like New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003ESince February there have been two main shifts in the evidence before us. One is that it is extremely apparent that change is happening faster than had been predicted. It is now very clear that the world is tracking close to the worst scenario contemplated by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Antarctic ice shelves are melting at faster rates, the world\u2019s glaciers are in rapid retreat, we have the hottest November on record in Australia, and the list goes on. It is also clearer and clearer that the Copenhagen conference, which has been described by one of my colleagues as possibly the most important gathering in human history, seems less and less likely to achieve the necessary step change in carbon emissions that we need, given the timidity of countries like New Zealand. In other words, the 4 degrees Celsius of warming that the New Scientist warns of is progressively becoming more and more likely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EOn Friday night of last week I attended the annual Cawthron Institute address by Dr David Wratt, who is the principal climate scientist of the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, along with the Minister for Climate Change Issues, Dr Smith. It was a masterful contribution from Dr Wratt. It was a great summary of science, possibly the best I have ever heard, and it was delivered in terms that any normal person would be able to understand. He stressed the importance of keeping warming below 2 degrees Celsius if it was at all possible. It is not a precise science to know exactly what concentration of carbon the atmosphere can tolerate in order to achieve that goal, but he presented evidence to suggest that we are already at the lower end of the band of concentrations that are required to keep warming to 2 degrees Celsius. In other words, 2 degrees Celsius of warming may already be locked in. It is clear that we cannot just turn off the tap. The advice is to stop emissions as quickly as possible, and certainly no later than 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThroughout all the cautious, scientific language of Dr Wratt, there rang a clarion call. This is a massive and unprecedented challenge in human history, but we can prevent or limit the worst effects if we act strongly and urgently enough, and we need to do this. As all of the world\u2019s developed economies involve high carbon use and emissions, and are dependent on continued growth, reducing emissions at all requires a fundamental change to the way that we do business. Sadly, the years since 1990 have been characterised by dithering and wasted opportunities. While northern European countries, for example, simply got on with the job after 1990 and transformed their economies, our Governments played pass the parcel. Our Governments have been desperate to find a formula to give the appearance of doing something about the problem, without actually requiring businesses to change anything that they do. Ironic congratulations are due to this Government on finding its Holy Grail. This scandalous bill before us represents the zenith of this ambition. This bill not only will fail to reduce emissions but will actually increase them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s failings are many and manifest. The point of an emissions trading scheme is to have a cap, and preferably one that sinks over time. There is none here. It is inevitable that the carbon price signal made by this bill will be incredibly weak, and when that is coupled with the intensity-based targets in the bill, the most likely result will be increased emissions. The time that this bill takes to phase out subsidies to the big polluters will take most of this century. We will still be subsidising the big polluters when the Ganges has run dry, when our Pacific neighbours are inundated with sea-level rise, and when the world\u2019s population has collapsed. When Greenland and Antarctica are performing the role of the world\u2019s breadbasket, New Zealand will still be subsidising big polluters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThere is also the sleight of hand, which has been referred to by a number of others in this debate, that sees the Government cynically pretending it has saved consumers money on their petrol and power bills. New Zealanders will pay for emissions one way or another: either through taxes and reduced Government services, or through prices. One of these methods creates a disincentive for emissions and will force emitters to reduce them. Unfortunately, the Government has chosen the other path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI refer to the fact that a number of Government speakers in this debate, including the Minister, have once again raised the false dichotomy of the economy and the environment. They say we cannot have both, and must have one or the other. The Green Party has, on numerous occasions in this House, pointed to the fact that it is possible to achieve both. It is possible to achieve positive outcomes for our economy, while also protecting the environment and reducing emissions. It is sad that this Government has chosen not to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThere are some good parts in the bill. It is a good thing to be planting more indigenous forestry on conservation land. It is just a shame that it is so limited. The Green Party will be announcing our next package of Green New Deal measures next week, including an extensive proposed forestry programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the fact that both of the parties that will be voting for this bill\u2014the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b40945f29144718cbd51761a5449fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: United Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c846af12e042c9925075db9b14a94c\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I forgot United Future. Those parties have effectively become hostage to the interests of big business, hostage to the interests of those whose planning horizon is no further than the immediate future. It is a planning horizon that sells our children and our grandchildren down the river. I will refer to the speech of Tariana Turia from 28 August 2008 on the emissions trading scheme bill of that year. She said: \u201Chow this nation curbs greenhouse gas emissions will define this moment in our history. Meeting our obligations under the Kyoto Protocol to reduce greenhouse gases is vitally important, but this issue is much more than one of compliance with the United Nations goals to cut emissions and to stabilise the climate system. It is far more simple than that. Reducing our emissions is about honouring our commitment to those who have passed on that we will leave this planet in a better state \u2026 for those who come after us.\u201D In addition she said: \u201CWe are of the view that what is needed is a radical rethink of the whole approach. We are opposed to the concept of paying the polluters, of rewarding the corporate lobbyists with huge exemptions, and of the very nature of trading, rather than reducing, emissions.\u201D She also said: \u201CThe last thing we want to suggest is that we are the authority on the emissions trading scheme\u201D\u2014I guess we would agree with that\u2014\u201Cbecause clearly we are not. But we do care passionately about leaving this world in a better state\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00229cb0b20117594e958ff03f60f4df09b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cb0b20117594e958ff03f60f4df09b1\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill leads the world in covering all sectors and all gases, and New Zealand will be the first country internationally to include agriculture in its emissions trading scheme. This bill will ensure that New Zealand will do its fair share in the global fight against climate change. The Government has amended Labour\u2019s climate change legislation to make it a more workable, a more affordable, and a more practical emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ERight now, the Government does not want to add a bill for an extra $400 million on to the people of New Zealand. Our fragile economy cannot afford these extra costs; we are only just beginning to turn round our economy and only just beginning to see a drop in the rate of unemployment. We want to continue this trend. We want to make sure that we do not destroy our businesses and that we do not decimate jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0483e60225849b89fa5a64355115d9a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: This is just embarrassing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6445c11e1cb4287b14bee4a3ac72474\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that Mr Hipkins over there scoffs about jobs, but the key issue for New Zealanders right now is to make sure that they keep working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealanders are very aware of, and love, their natural environment, many of them have little capacity to financially contribute to managing climate change. Also, unlike Labour, we do not believe that the Government should profit at the expense of the people of New Zealand trying to do the right thing by the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe new legislation will be fiscally neutral and absolutely focused on dealing with climate change. We will not be screwing windfall profits out of the ordinary New Zealander. For the first 3 years, the bill will halve the costs for businesses and households. Labour\u2019s scheme put a price on households at approximately $6 per week; National\u2019s scheme will cost householders about $3 per week. But, of course, the long-term motivation is to encourage all New Zealanders to embrace a low-carbon lifestyle and to modify their behaviour accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911241ec92c1b33984dcbb2dd0a4624b70b01000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b372d792a344370be0dd3366fd5473f\u0022\u003ETuesday, 24 November 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205fdaaa36e1247ae8c96f5db99efafde\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 25 November 2009)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b3183dbd8524661bc8318755e46f556\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f504a867abd4b01832ffe447e606ae1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226844d42495cb467d81d979aeed4aa90d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Climate Change Response Act 2002 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022d620ea03d9034bd9b0f6ee63f74ab28b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d620ea03d9034bd9b0f6ee63f74ab28b\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Today I will talk about Supplementary Order Paper 98, in the name of the Minister for Climate Change Issues, but before I do so I need to clarify some important issues. Yesterday I spoke about the complexity of the emissions trading scheme legislation and about the problems that people have in interpreting the issue. I spoke about the lack of information, partial information, and misinformation. This morning, after watching Phil Goff on the Breakfast television programme, I want to bust a few myths that have been swirling around this legislation, and I will expose some of the misinformation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EMyth No. 1 is that this measure is a limp-wristed, pathetic response to climate change. It is a bill,. like Labour\u2019s, that covers \u201Call gases, all sectors\u201D, and we are the first country in the world to include agriculture. The Rio Tinto smelter in Bluff will be the first aluminium smelter in the world to be under an emissions trading scheme. It is a reasonable, rational response to a difficult issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EMyth No. 2 is that the public will be subsidising big business. In fact, with the exception of the first 2\u00BD years and the half-priced transition to the system under National to protect our fragile economy post-recession, until 2018 the Labour and the National schemes are very similar. Until 2018 the costs are about the same. After 2018 the schemes diverge. National\u2019s scheme has a much more gentle phase-out than Labour\u2019s scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBut the difference between Labour\u2019s and National\u2019s schemes is how they deal with the free international carbon credits allocated to New Zealand. They are allocated to New Zealand because we have committed to a carbon price and we have committed to making changes to our economy. Under National, they will continue to be passed on to our trade-exposed and emissions-intensive companies, to ensure that they and their jobs survive. That is the reason those credits are allocated to us, and that is what this Government will do. In contrast, under Labour\u2019s scheme they would be seized, and the money would be put into the Government\u2019s coffers. So there is no subsidisation; there is only a passing on of allocated carbon credits, and Labour knows that. David Parker himself, when talking about the allocation of international carbon credits in relation to Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme, refuted the concept, but all the Labour members are talking subsidisation now. The Minister has also made it very clear that the National Government will not be purchasing credits to allocate. Our scheme will be fiscally neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EMyth No. 3 is that there is a $110 billion debt for the people of New Zealand. I repeat: there is no $110 billion debt for the people of New Zealand. I thought we had sorted this out. I thought even the most illiterate financial manager could understand this issue, but I saw Phil Goff on Breakfast this morning trotting out the same old misinformation. It is scaremongering at its very worst. Let me explain. The $110 billion figure was obtained by crystal-gazing to 2050. It would apply only if, firstly, Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme went ahead, and, secondly, if Labour seized the free carbon credits and did not pass them on. That would have produced, maybe, a $23 billion profit at the expense of the people of New Zealand. Thirdly, it would apply only if Labour did not spend the seized credits. We must remember that once the public realised that Labour was making a profit at their expense, it promised to spend them; it said it would spend them on low-carbon initiatives. So they would have been gone. It would apply only if, fourthly, Labour invested the money it had already spent, and had compounded the interest. That is a whole lot of ifs and a whole lot of impossible buts, and this, members should remember, is in the year 2050. People can be assured that there never was and there never will be a $110 billion debt. It was a computer-generated what-if scenario that cannot happen. Besides, there will be regular reviews, starting in 2011, to monitor the process and to make sure that any decisions are for the good of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ENow that I have explained that misinformation I want to talk about the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 98 and the two policy changes within it. The changes have come out of the submissions process of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which dispels the myth that the process was so rushed that we did not learn anything from it. The first change concerns tree weeds. Tree weeds and the managing of tree weeds\u2014for example, wilding pines\u2014were of significant concern to submitters. We heard from a large number of organisations, including local government, that wanted to see changes in this area. The amended emissions trading scheme had fixed the problems that had arisen under Labour\u2019s emissions trading legislation, which had meant that organisations and councils that were removing wilding pines were liable for deforestation payments. However, there was a further problem, and, after hearing the latest submissions, National has introduced a Supplementary Order Paper to deal with one further aspect of the situation. The problem occurs when trees have been deliberately planted, often by the Government, as in some parts of Southland and the Marlborough Sounds, and it is from these plantations that wilding pines are being seeded. The changes in the Supplementary Order Paper will deal with this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe second issue I want to talk about is the burning of waste wood. Over the last few years some industries have moved away from fossil fuels to renewable biofuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002265e8139492a54bf9823d839891d1df76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e8139492a54bf9823d839891d1df76\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting to follow on from the member who has just resumed her seat, Nicky Wagner, in the Committee stage of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, and to have clarification that Treasury appears to have a crystal ball that is also a computer. We just heard from Ms Wagner that the computers are to blame. The machines have taken over at Treasury. Nobody is putting any data in; there are no actual people. I do not know what Aaron Gilmore thinks of this. He is a former Treasury person and he must have been part of the crystal-gazing over the road there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f295b3ae599f4b93a82e2d447e2f6525\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: He was the crystal ball!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220411a89d0eab4e3bb363251511e5f006\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, he was the crystal ball at Treasury. That is what we heard. The problem for Ms Wagner is that Treasury did make this estimate. Treasury made this estimate for 2050, and National has been very, very happy to talk about the emission reduction targets that it has for 2050. It has been very happy to stake its credibility on reducing emissions out to 2050, but suddenly, when Treasury\u2014the brains that drive the financial management of New Zealand\u2014comes up with a projection and National does not like it, it is crystal-gazing. It does not matter any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders will have to pay for this emissions trading scheme. Ms Wagner shakes her head, but someone has to pay. I quote somebody she knows very well: \u201CAre there fairies at the bottom of the garden with money?\u201D. Somebody has to pay for this, and Part 1 shifts the burden for that payment from heavy emitters to taxpayers. It shifts the burden from heavy emitters to ordinary taxpayers. It shifts the burden from this generation to the next generation. Last night we heard a disgraceful interjection from the National side of the Chamber on one of my colleagues. Jacinda Ardern was speaking about the impact of this bill on future generations and we heard an interjection that said she had no right to talk about that because she did not have children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e97ade15bb4461a400ea9c8643b193\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It was Amy Adams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccca64f8453047748469a9dfea7c7ff0\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That was who the interjector was, I say to Mr Parker. I was appalled by that interjection as I myself am somebody who does not have children. I will tell members of some other people in our history who have not had children and who have made a big influence on this Parliament: Michael Joseph Savage and Peter Fraser. They did not have children, but they cared about future generations. On this side of the Chamber we also care about future generations, whether or not we have children. Part 1 of this bill is pushing the burden for paying for this, for paying for our future, on to future generations without taking responsibility for it now. I believe that that is a great shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe need to recap a little on where we have got to. I am a relatively new member in this House so I take the advice of experienced members, who have been here for some time. I want to quote from one of those members: \u201CThe importance of getting this legislation right cannot be overstated. [The development of an ETS] represents the most significant economic reform since the deregulation of the economy in the late 1980s. Getting this bill right is also important for the environment. Poor policy can also have unintended adverse environmental consequences.\u201D\u2014I think we can agree with that. The quote continues: \u201Cthe legislative process has been rushed and inadequate given this bill\u2019s complexity and significance. The public has not had adequate time to examine and submit on the bill, and it is inevitable that serious mistakes will be made that will adversely affect New Zealanders \u2026 this process has not been conducive to getting such an important bill right nor in getting the cross-party support needed to ensure the stability and longevity of New Zealand\u2019s ETS.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997ff940682c4d2ea028935bf1cd9b26\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed83030bcb5640f786cba44efd96c868\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell members that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nick Smith, said that, and he was talking about Labour\u2019s climate change legislation last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat legislation had had over a year\u2019s worth of work on it, extensive consultation prior to it being introduced, with working groups working alongside the Government throughout the process, and a proper select committee process with a wonderful chair in Mr Chauvel, and Mr Smith told us last year that it was inadequate. I ask members what we are seeing now. We are seeing a process rushed through select committee, legislation rammed through in urgency, and we heard yesterday that the deal with the M\u0101ori Party was agreed to 18 minutes before it was announced to the public. Is that the proper scrutiny this bill deserves? Is that the proper scrutiny that Dr Smith was talking about last year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d405f8d24511460f89cdcd5e490e02f0\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c1f2c332c54246b13e78820cefa1e8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. This bill has been rushed through and this process is a shambles. Over there is Mr Quinn, the politiciser of the Public Service. I wonder whether he will be organising something in association with the Ministry for the Environment in his electorate over this. I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis process has been deeply, deeply flawed. This is what the Treasury, which the Government side of the Chamber does not want to listen to, said about this bill: \u201CThe level and quality of analysis presented is not commensurate with the significance of the proposals, which represent major design changes to the Emissions Trading Scheme and the Regulatory Impact Statement does not provide an adequate basis for informed decision-making.\u201D Treasury made that comment in all seriousness; the people at Treasury are not frivolous people. The National Party campaigned on respecting the professionalism of public servants, but it has completely failed to do that in this case. Treasury made a serious statement, and it further stated that the changes to the emissions trading scheme \u201Ccome at a cost to the economy as a whole, by delaying the transition of the New Zealand economy to a carbon constrained world.\u201D [Interruption] I repeat for Mr Quinn\u2019s benefit that the changes to the emissions trading scheme \u201Ccome at a cost to the economy as a whole, by delaying the transition of the New Zealand economy to a carbon constrained world.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is the problem with Part 1. National seems to believe that we can somehow reduce our emissions and meet our international targets without having to really change. Nicky Wagner described Part 1 as a \u201Cgentle phase-out\u201D. What that really means is that the people who need to be fronting up\u2014the large, heavy emitters\u2014are being given a gentle phase-out and the taxpayers of New Zealand, out to 2050 and beyond, will shoulder the burden of this legislation. Future generations will shoulder the burden because this Government has not been prepared to front up, take some responsibility, and take some time to develop a scheme that is sustainable and has cross-party support. That is shameful. Part 1 is deeply flawed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00228779a5e7b2034c4eab3fd13ce8de020f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228779a5e7b2034c4eab3fd13ce8de020f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I did not raise the point at the time because I did not want to interrupt the flow of the debate, but a member in the Chamber, Mr Paul Quinn, has maintained a running commentary of interjection, which is, I think, disruptive. It is also contrary to the Standing Orders for a person to shift his seat in order to interject. I suggest that if Mr Quinn wishes to continue to scream his lungs out, he is returned to a seat over there, from now on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022defe12c7f27648a8b5ee58981d689345\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022893e53d5944849faad0c4f88c3484dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022893e53d5944849faad0c4f88c3484dfb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any comment. This is a well-worn path; we have been here on many occasions. I say to members that I am very tolerant of these things. If people want to shift around the Chamber and sit closer, down this end of the Chamber, because it intensifies the debate, I think that is a good thing. Interjections are part and parcel of a robust debate in the Committee stage, and both sides have interjected quite robustly. I think it adds to the flow of the debate to have interjections backwards and forwards. I could certainly hear all of the comments being made by the speaker when Mr Quinn was interjecting. The member speaking had the advantage of the microphone. I did not find the interjecting particularly disruptive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI also say to the member who raised the point of order that a point of order needs to be raised at the time. It cannot be retrospective. If at the time the member feels that interjecting is disruptive, the member must raise the point of order then and there. Once time has flowed, the point of order has gone; it cannot be retrospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut I took the member\u2019s point that we should be careful about interjections, and make sure the debate can be heard. I am sure Mr Quinn will take cognisance of that, as will those who have made the loud, robust comments that I have heard from my left-hand side, as well\u2014the many and several, and I will not name them all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022791df22f6a2b4098befc0292d76e6c70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022791df22f6a2b4098befc0292d76e6c70\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E When I was in the Chamber last night I heard an interjection from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nick Smith, and I thought it important to clarify that comment this morning, before I get into other points in my speech. He accused my colleague Chris Hipkins of double standards, I guess, for raising the point of the outrageous rise in power prices, because, he said, Labour was campaigning for changes to the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill that might increase power prices. Well, there is some truth in both of those statements. What Mr Hipkins has been raising is the outrageous rorting of the system by State-owned enterprises, by dominant players. That point has been clearly identified in reports in this country, and Mr Hipkins has every right to point out the reality that the Minister is part of a Government that is demanding more return from power companies. Unless we raise that concern, no doubt the Minister, Nick Smith, and his mates will extract more money from the State-owned enterprises through excessive electricity prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, we know that the impact of this bill will mean increasing costs for any area of energy utilisation. That is the reality of the emissions trading scheme legislation. We cannot shy away from that. But we have to ask the question why we are doing it. Members on the other side of the Chamber say they are great champions of the market. They believe that market signals will determine behaviour. Well, that is fairly true, I have to acknowledge, so where we have increasing costs we will have decreasing demand, or so the saying goes. The emissions trading scheme is designed to apportion climatic costs, environmental costs, on to the whole economy so that we will change our behaviour, reduce our emissions, and become more efficient in the utilisation of hydrocarbons or any form of energy. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Nick Smith, nods his head. I think that is what we are trying to achieve here. But the issue Labour members are raising is whether this amended legislation will give effect to what we want, which is to reduce international emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI will concentrate on New Zealand, because I speak on behalf of the agricultural sector, a sector that will have the lion\u2019s share of concessions, along with the fishing industry and along with some sectors in our society that are into forestry. There is an inherent unfairness here, because what we are seeing is a shift in wealth; low-income New Zealanders\u2014people who do an ordinary job, work hard, and try to look after their families\u2014will be paying more. Treasury gives us forecasts for many areas\u2014accident compensation, for example. The Minister has been happy to use forecasts from Treasury on accident compensation, moving out to 2030, to say that the scheme is broke. Well, I challenge his assumption, but he is happy to use forecasts there. Contrary to Nikki Kaye\u2019s assumptions, we have to rely on forecasts from Treasury in other areas. When we come back to the emissions trading scheme, the Treasury forecasts say that we may be shifting wealth from ordinary New Zealanders to some polluters\u2014to some major emitters\u2014to the tune of $100 billion. That is a huge transfer of wealth. The question is whether it will assist our achievement of the goals of meeting our international obligations and ultimately reducing our emissions into the atmosphere. It is about having some positive effect on global warming, on climate change\u2014call it what you like. That is what we are trying to do here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat Labour members say is that the compromises and the sweet deals between the M\u0101ori Party and the Government, including shifting out the inclusion of agriculture from 2013 to 2015, are the kinds of deals that will reduce the effectiveness of the legislation we put in place last year. We say that this bill is a sham. In fact, it is not just a sham from the point of view of ordinary New Zealanders, who will pay another $100 billion; the major beneficiaries of the Government\u2019s wheeling and dealing\u2014arguably, the forestry sector and the farmers\u2014also think it is a sham, a shambles, and a mess. So if the major beneficiaries of the Government\u2019s wheeling and dealing think this whole legislation is a shambles, then perhaps it begs the question of whether we should be passing it, at all. Sensible New Zealanders\u2014the few who are listening to this debate, and a few more who might have been listening last night\u2014who are starting to understand what the emissions trading scheme is for know that we have to be part of an international movement to try to reduce the human contribution to climate change, and that if we are not part of it, we will not be able to sell anything to the members of that movement, and we certainly will not be able to sell anything to the high-value markets. The farmers will not be able to get rid of their goods. Those countries that currently buy our goods will say that we are not part of the international effort to reduce climate change, so they will not want our goods, which may have been produced in an unsustainable way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour brought into this House legislation that moved us in that direction. It was a compromise all round. It did not go so far as to put at risk our world trade obligations by providing a huge subsidy to farmers that might have undermined our efforts and our moral high ground in asking for freer trade around the world. We had reached that compromise. The question I have for the Minister is whether his shifting out of the date of the inclusion of agriculture puts at risk our position in world trade negotiations in that we are seen to be giving a huge subsidy to agriculture, and thereby undermines our ability to get free-trade agreements with Europe and other high-value markets. This scheme might put that at risk, which may be one of the reasons that Don Nicolson, the president of Federated Farmers, says this bill is a sham and a shambles, we should step right away from it, and maybe, he says, we should go back to a carbon charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220def7b1544ce4d46b7ff4d79759609f4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That would be silly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89131e2eca948e4ba6487ace96ca2cb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That would be silly. I have to say that I thought the carbon charge idea was a good step in the right direction when we discussed it and introduced it. However, who campaigned against it? Federated Farmers. They called it a \u201Cfart tax\u201D. Well, with the wisdom of hindsight, or call it what one likes\u2014a road to Damascus moment, or whatever; I do not care\u2014Federated Farmers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2eb82d8a4247808d30a0882bc4fe0f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: You know why they liked it? Because they didn\u2019t have to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6dcc9db34d412abca3159d193e4ebb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Of course they do not want to pay any more than they have to, but they are now coming to the realisation that to trade long term into high-value markets, they must be part of an international effort to reduce climate change. The question is why they would think this legislation that Nick Smith, with his Ministers and Cabinet, has negotiated with the M\u0101ori Party, will work. Sweet deals have been offered to some iwi groups. Sweet deals have been offered to quota owners\u2014but not for catch, not for fishermen. The quota owners will get all the benefit of the transfer. The Minister in the chair shakes his head. In fact, 50 percent of the fish caught in this country is caught by foreign vessels, and they will not have any impost from our emissions trading scheme; the fishing industry and the quota owners will have further incentive to use foreign boats to catch fish in New Zealand waters. That is an outrage, along with most of the things that this Government has negotiated behind closed doors, in dark rooms, to try to get this flawed legislation through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf farmers, who are the greatest beneficiaries of this change, think it is a sham, then maybe the rest of the country is justified\u2014and the Opposition certainly is\u2014in saying that this change to the legislation that Labour introduced to the House is a waste of time. It will not give effect to what we really want from the scheme, which is to incentivise people to change their long-term behaviour in order to reduce their emissions. Yes, there will be an additional cost on electricity and on all other hydrocarbons. That is the reality. The Minister knows that. Whether it is his legislation or sensible amendments from the Opposition, yes, there will be additional costs. They must be affordable and they must ultimately give the right signals to people who emit. The problem is that National has done enough sweet deals to not leave in place incentives for the major emitters to use technology and use science to try to reduce emissions over time. In fact, the Government halved the amount of money that the previous Government had put in place for agricultural research. It is an outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00228a9304c4b7b7428282cbfa1b787f1f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a9304c4b7b7428282cbfa1b787f1f5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I am really enjoying the Committee stage of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. Out there, members opposite can get their sound bytes and their cheap shots away, but under the blowtorch treatment of the scrutiny of this Parliament we are finding that Labour\u2019s views do not stand up to scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet me go through three areas where I think Labour is making a big strategic mistake. The first is that we have repeatedly heard Labour members use the figure of $110 billion as the cost of the bill. The truth is that it depends on the way the question is asked about those costings. I will tell the Committee where Labour members are tying a noose for their own necks. If they want to apply that sort of approach to the pricing of policies, it will work as follows: for instance, Labour has said that part of its policy is to restore a research and development tax credit worth $400 million per year. But if we apply the $110 billion rule\u2014that is, if we compound the figure over 42 years, the cost of the policy would be $20 billion. I say to Labour members that if that is the approach they want to use for costing, then for every single promise they make up to election day in 2011, I want them to price it on the same rules\u2014that is, the figure should be added up for every single year all the way up to 2050, and compounded at 6 percent each year. That is how the figure of $110 billion is arrived at. I say to members opposite that if those are the terms of their approach, they will blow any credibility they have. There is not a day in this House when they are not making commitments to spend money on this or that cause, so we will now apply that funding approach to their promises, and that will come to bite them very hard in the behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second thing that is really interesting is the way the language changes. You see, when Labour does a deal with the Green Party and New Zealand First to get its emissions trading legislation through, that is MMP politics working well. But when we do an agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, then that is a dirty, secret deal. Let me give members another example. When the previous Labour Government made an allocation to industry, the Green Party challenged them; the Green Party said that it was a subsidy for big industry. Mr Parker said that it was not a subsidy. So I say to hang on; I want members of the Labour benches to answer this question: why is it that when Labour makes an allocation to industry, it is not a subsidy, but when National makes an allocation in this bill, it is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we come to some of the other areas around the bill. Let us remember and recite the history. There were 800 amendments tabled a year ago in this House, and what was the reason that Labour wanted to pass that legislation? It was purely political. Labour wanted the legislation through before the election to try to save its skin. Why do we want this legislation through? I will tell members why. We want it through for very practical reasons. What is the biggest issue for New Zealand right now? I tell members that it is the recession and it is jobs. If we do not get this bill through, on 1 January there will be a 10 percent increase in the price of electricity, and there will be a $400 million cost on industry next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDo we want to snuff out the recovery in the economy? This is not an ideal process, but members on this side of the House will put the national interest of this country first. The national interest of this country is overwhelmingly in favour of fixing the mistakes in that legislation and getting a sensible and balanced emissions trading scheme in place for 1 July next year. That, in my view, is the absolutely responsible thing for the House to do. I am yet to hear any member set out a realistic and balanced view of an alternative approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI will say one other thing. Members ask us just to leave this scheme where it is on 1 January. Well, every member of this House knows that that would be a real shambles for industry. I was advised by officials that even if we rushed to implement the current scheme, the allocation plan could not be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca769b4875384331833b05deccfc99dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca769b4875384331833b05deccfc99dd\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am speaking against the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill this morning, and I will follow on from comments made earlier by my colleague Grant Robertson. He referred to the interjection made by a National member last night, a member who told Jacinda Ardern that she had no right to talk about or reference the rights of future generations, given that she had no children. Well, I have a son, and my son will be 60 years old at a time when he will be paying half the costs of the subsidies for high-intensity industry emitters. When my son is 60, he will be paying half the costs of the subsidies for high-intensity industry emitters. Something is seriously wrong with that; there is a very disturbing pattern with this Government to push off the costs of today\u2019s decisions on to future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will make some comments about process, because there is a direct relationship between the quality of process and the sausage that comes out the other end. The process of this bill has been shambolic, shoddy, and shonky. The result is a piece of legislation that I think quite frankly should not be before this House. If this Government had a shred of self-respect, it would take this bill back to the drawing board. I have been in this House only a year, but I have learned one or two things about parliamentary process. I have watched the progress of two of the Auckland super-city bills as they went through the House, and I thought that they were bad!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is a strange Alice-in-Wonderland principle at work with this Government. The more important an issue is to the country\u2019s future, the less scrutiny and the less attention is paid to it, and the more rushed its process is. I do not know why that is. Could it be the perpetually relaxed Prime Minister, grinning aimlessly while his coalition partners in major legislation spin off into the ether? Could it be the genial incompetence of Gerry Brownlee and his House management, or has Nick Smith finally blown a gasket and what we are seeing with this emissions trading scheme process is a result of that? At least Rodney Hide has an excuse for his shambolic handling of the Auckland super-city reforms. He was off around the world, going to Universal Studios and attending weddings in London. What is this Minister\u2019s excuse for this shambolic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELet us talk about some of the similarities between the Auckland governance process and this emissions trading scheme process. Some things that I think have a very strong parallel between the two processes include the misuse of urgency, which has been another hallmark of this Government\u2019s record over the last 12 months; a rushed and inadequate process; inadequate select committee scrutiny; important decisions made behind the scenes while the committee was actually receiving submissions from the public\u2014and we have seen the sweetheart deal that the Government made with certain iwi in order to get M\u0101ori Party support\u2014and shambolic last-minute changes. In the case of the Auckland super-city, it was the panicked last-minute decision to bring the Rodney district into the super-city; in the case of the emissions trading scheme, we have seen very similar things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELet us continue with this issue of process. We have seen the chair of the select committee try to limit oral submissions to 30 and the hearings to a single day. I ask members how bizarre that is. In the end, submitters were given only a few hours\u2019 notice to appear before the committee\u2014far too short a time to actually speak, prepare, and communicate on issues of this complexity. The Government withheld key documents, including the Treasury analysis of long-term fiscal costs and the details of an agreement with the M\u0101ori Party. Treasury officials looked at each other in confusion and had to ask for a break so they could go out and discuss what the real estimates of the long-term fiscal consequences were. It was utterly bizarre, and both Treasury and the Parliamentary Counsel Office said to the committee that they simply did not have the time to do their work properly in order to provide advice to the committee. The process was a shambles, and Government members should be ashamed. To rescue this bill at the last minute, we have seen a cobbled-together deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u00220ff10e273c9b4d6b890eb2b0545b777f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ff10e273c9b4d6b890eb2b0545b777f\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill presents perhaps the greatest challenge ever to come before this House in its 150 years, I believe. We are of minor significance in the greater human drama that is unfolding around us, but what we do has an importance proportionate to size. We can never shirk our responsibility to contribute to the common good, which in the 21st century means the good of humanity. This bill holds the mirror up to that responsibility. If our climate change legislation is inadequate, we not only shall condemn our children to a miserable and precarious life but also shall have committed a new crime: the crime of global negligence. As Russel Norman said yesterday, future generations will curse our memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EAlong with the Minister, Dr Nick Smith, I attended the Rio Earth Summit back in 1992. The Minister has recently been wont to recall that attendees at Rio thought climate change could be solved within 5 years, and he cheerfully admitted to having underestimated the challenge. I can attest before members today that Dr Smith was alone in that belief at Rio. No other delegate, not one, thought for a second that climate change would be solved within that impudently short time frame. That is why the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change was concluded that year. That is why its Kyoto Protocol was negotiated 5 years later, with its binding obligation to keep our national emissions to 1990 levels, an obligation we are cravenly violating today by 22 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI have scrutinised the framework convention and the Kyoto Protocol, I have read the 2008 Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading) Amendment Act, and I have read the 2009 Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I have sat through some of the committee hearings, I have read the committee\u2019s report and the Supplementary Order Papers from the Government, Labour, and the M\u0101ori Party, and I have sat through the whole of this debate. What have I learnt? I have learnt that National has scored eight times more solar panels in 1 year than Labour did in 9 years. I have learnt that an allocation is not a subsidy, and that it is. I have learnt, or at least I have been told, that Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme would cost households $6 per week and National\u2019s only $3 per week. I have learnt that it is unpatriotic for an Opposition member to attend the UN conference on climate change in Copenhagen. Amidst the verbiage I can discern one thing, and that is that any emissions trading scheme, whether the balance of responsibility is by design or accident, weighs most heavily on the New Zealand taxpayer or consumer, the businessman or farmer, the forester or fisherman, whether P\u0101keh\u0101 or M\u0101ori; it will all ultimately fall on each of us as humans, all breathing the same air, all worrying about our children and theirs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EBut at a more fundamental level I have also learnt that humanity is in deep trouble, for as a species we seem to have become afflicted with a cognitive dissonance and have lost our ability to perceive reality with any clarity. We have lost\u2014perhaps never possessed\u2014a true depth of field of historic proportionality. We stare unblinkingly into the void that is the 21st century, mindless of magnitude, oblivious to its portent. In this country, and in this House, we have become so preoccupied with inter-sectoral interests and inter-party point-scoring that we fail to comprehend the truth of what is happening around us. As the beautiful southern icebergs begin their slow and menacing northward drift into our waters, we pretend that it carries no meaning. The searing plight of the polar bear, so far away and yet so near to our fate, we prefer not to acknowledge; we are too busy worrying about our national export earnings. This bill, with its uncapped, trade-intensive, indulgent wink at \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D, constitutes a threat to the global climate and thus to the future of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELet us seek to restore the broader picture that frames the debate we are having in the New Zealand House of Representatives. The global objective of the 1992 climate convention was to protect the climate system for the benefit of present and future generations of humankind. The aim was to stabilise greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate quickly enough to allow ecosystems to adapt naturally. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change judges that the critical threshold to avoid catastrophic climate change is 2 degrees above the present, which means a threshold of 450 parts per million volume carbon concentration. The emissions cuts prescribed for that by the rich North are 25 to 40 percent by 2020, and 80 to 90 percent by 2050. The UN Secretary-General urges countries to accept these targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EDown here on Earth\u2019s last islands, the Government\u2014befuddled with its mantra of balancing economic opportunity with environmental responsibility, as if they were competing weights on the blind scales of justice\u2014talks of doing its fair share in its national contribution to the global interest. So what are its national targets for the global good? They are less than half the prescribed target for 2020, and just over half that for 2050. That is an abject failure to do our fair share, a failure that borders on criminal negligence. It is one to be ashamed of, as, indeed, we shall all be before much time has elapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELast night Kevin Hague described the degraded planet that our descendants may inhabit at the end of the century. To most of us the year 2100 sounds far enough away for political, if not intellectual, absolution. Yet my four granddaughters aged from 3 months to 5 years will, God and Gaia willing, be alive at that stage. I truly fear for their future. Can an agreement be achieved at Copenhagen to avert catastrophic climate change? There is something existentially dysfunctional about 192 nation States, each claiming untrammelled sovereignty, purporting to negotiate a global solution to a global problem through competitive pursuit of the national interest as traditionally perceived. If there is a single global interest, there needs to be a single global institution empowered to identify and enforce the solution. The only legitimate national interest lies in meeting that responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe underlying issue of sovereignty surfaced recently when Anzac Ministers forewarned that a binding global agreement may not be achieved at Copenhagen, and we should turn to plan B\u2014a schedule of voluntary commitments for cuts. That, of course, would be the ultimate regression to the 19th century. We must never be persuaded to drop global aspirations simply by the siren call of the complexity of the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Government has provided no causal linkage between its 10 percent cut by 2020 and the impact that it would have on our contribution to the critical global threshold. It follows that the Government is engaging in the obsolete method of policy making of determining a priori its national interest and disavowing the global consequences, rather than accepting the global objective, determining the national obligation from that, then determining how intersectorally we reach it. In New Zealand we have no choice but to meet our national responsibility targets of 40 percent by 2020 and 90 percent by 2050. The 2020 target means a cut of about 48 million tonnes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s report, released in August, showed that a 36 million tonne cut in domestic emissions is feasible, requiring only 12 million tonnes in international credits to be purchased. The sectoral share of domestic cuts was calculated not on the basis of interminable mutual recrimination and sweetheart deals, but on what is scientifically and economically optimal. That is the rational basis for national salvation. We have studied the environmental ministry\u2019s critique of our report. We adhere, for the moment, to our own calculations, and we are ready to debate the matter constructively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EEach economic sector in New Zealand\u2014business, farming, forestry, fishing, and energy\u2014has a vested sectoral interest that is sub-national. Claims advanced by each of Business New Zealand, Federated Farmers, and the Coalition for Climate Change Policy should, with due respect to each institution, be viewed in that light. It is only the Government that forms policy for the national interest in the context of the global interest. How the Government does that is what this debate is all about. It is about a question of method, and that depends on one\u2019s world view. Jeanette Fitzsimons and I will be at Copenhagen, conducting ourselves in the most patriotic manner of all: seeking to ensure that our Government does this country and its children proud, in this moment of global need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002283066f39c3bb4d92a015fdf74e870572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283066f39c3bb4d92a015fdf74e870572\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have been very disappointed in the performance in this House from the Minister for Climate Change Issues, Dr Nick Smith, on the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. Last night, in answer to allegations by Jeanette Fitzsimons that this bill generated no net savings in emissions, Dr Smith quite correctly stood up and raised four or five examples of how this bill will reduce emissions. In my view, everything Dr Smith said was absolutely correct. However, this morning we heard from Dr Smith a statement that we should be concerned about the recession. He said that we have a recession and unless we pass this bill, electricity will be going up by 10 percent on 1 January. Dr Smith and the National Government know that that is absolutely incorrect. The ACT Party opposes this bill, and we do so because it is being rushed through before the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen. There is no need to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill because it is based in part on following Australia. Australia is not finalised. We oppose this bill because our key trading partner, the United States, has not made any formal, binding commitment, and this bill will put our trade-exposed industry at risk. The ACT Party offered the National Government support in legislation to defer the introduction of the effective date of Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. For Dr Smith and the National Government to hide behind this bill as the reason for having to postpone the electricity price increase is nothing more than dishonest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELast night Dr Smith said that he was enjoying this debate. He commented in particular on the comments of Chris Hipkins on electricity. Dr Smith said that if we remove the two-for-one discount, New Zealanders will pay more for their electricity. Dr Smith is absolutely correct. If we remove the two for one discount, New Zealanders will pay more for their electricity. Under this bill, that discount is removed on 1 January 2013. The Labour emissions trading scheme that was passed last year would have a 10 percent increase in electricity from 1 January. The National Party proposed that we reduce that increase in electricity from 10 percent to 5 percent, and then institute that full increase of 10 percent before 1 January 2013. I stand in this House this morning as one of five ACT MPs, the only MPs in this Parliament who are prepared to stand up and ask why we are increasing the price of electricity by 10 percent from 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELast night the House heard from Hekia Parata, who is a distinguished former public servant in New Zealand. She said that the M\u0101ori Party and National should be proud of supporting this bill. I ask Hekia Parata how the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party can be proud of supporting a bill that will increase the price of electricity by 10 percent from 2013. How can they be proud? We have heard debate as to whether we allocate fishing quota to the fishermen or to the quota holders. We could argue that is irrelevant; it does not matter. We are talking about only 2\u00BD years of allocations. Dr Smith wrote the National Party minority report on Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme legislation last year. He said the fishing industry was trade-exposed and energy-intensive, and he questioned why we would not extend support to the fishing industry beyond 2013. He has the chance to do that now, and he is choosing not to do it. I again ask Hekia Parata how she, National, and the M\u0101ori Party can be proud to tax the fishing industry $15 million from 1 January 2013. How can they be proud? The ACT Party stands up and represents all New Zealanders who are facing a 10 percent electricity price increase from 1 January 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00229b4fdb574ae5406a821f0a2a2cde1c15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b4fdb574ae5406a821f0a2a2cde1c15\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Having heard the contribution from both the Green Party and the ACT Party, there are a couple of points to which I would like to respond. Firstly, I respond to the claim by ACT MP John Boscawen that somehow the Government is being dishonest, because I do take offence at that. Let me tell him why. The truth is that the ACT Party does not believe in climate change and does not want to take action. When we had a debate about a carbon tax the ACT Party said no, we should have an emissions trading scheme. Then, when we said we would have an emissions trading scheme, it said we should have a carbon tax. Now, I think the ACT Party needs to be honest with this Parliament and say what it really believes: that we should do nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo right at the very last moment, when it was well speculated in the media that we had reached an honourable agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, ACT suddenly fronted up and said we should delay things for 12 months. Let us think that through. Can I be any more confident than I am today that in 12 months\u2019 time National\u2014which believes we should take action on climate change, and which has long said we need to have an emissions trading scheme\u2014and ACT could reach agreement? The honest truth is that I cannot. The truth is that we had a special select committee inquiry. The truth is that the ACT Party\u2019s position at the end of that inquiry was exactly the same as at the beginning, albeit it was a single view. So do I think the right step forward for New Zealand today is to defer things for another 12 months? No, I do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen says that we are doing this ahead of other countries. Let us think that through. I think Kennedy Graham\u2019s point on this is quite true: that if New Zealand takes the approach of saying we will move only when another country has moved, and if every one of the 196 countries takes that approach, nobody will do anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo we have said we want to realign this emissions trading scheme with Australia\u2019s scheme. I have been to Australia three times. Most recently I had a long discussion with Malcolm Turnbull on Monday, so that I could ensure that this legislation took into account the most recent accounts of what is occurring in Australia. The reports continue to be that its scheme is likely to be passed into law this week. Given all the arguments about process, I remind the New Zealand Parliament that the Australian Government has not yet tabled its amendments, and is intending to both introduce them and pass them all in the same week. This issue\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do want to respond to a point that has been made by Grant Robertson and the likes of him. Those members have said the process is a shambles, but they take no responsibility for their role in that. I will say why they should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631e7a70430a45409e93a5f840e836d5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375d15209b1542aebcb27a7d0f533d8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me tell those members this. During the first reading of this bill, Labour members argued strongly that it should be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I have long held a view that it would be better if National and Labour could reach an accord on this issue. So, in discussion with Gerry Brownlee, we said it was not a big deal and we would allow the bill to go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I sought leave to do that. Can members believe that the Labour members voted against it when I sought leave for the bill to be referred to that committee? A large number of technical amendments were agreed to at the select committee. Members of the Labour Opposition agreed with the changes around tree weeds. If they agreed with those changes, why were those amendments not made at the select committee? It is because Labour wanted to make the process as bad as possible, and because it is simply being destructive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI challenge the Labour members. I say this issue is too important to play those sorts of political games with. This is the sort of issue on which this Parliament should rise to the occasion, rise to the huge challenge, and not be involved in that sort of silly exercise. I say if the Labour members want to make claims about the process, they need to answer to New Zealand on the role they took in the process to make it as destructive as they possibly could. They must bear responsibility for that, and they must eyeball their children and grandchildren about that, as we confront the issue of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b988e1249245eca51c0c39568df26d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we have had so much urgency that we have almost worn the bell out. If members hear this sound in the future, it is the normal bell. We are trying to get it fixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5b9294e75347999173695b62c02df5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5b9294e75347999173695b62c02df5\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that technical briefing, Mr Chairperson. Some of us were wondering whether baked beans had perhaps been on the menu this morning! I make one observation about the Minister for Climate Change Issues, the Hon Dr Nick Smith. We have now reached the point in this debate where that Minister will say absolutely anything. I was astounded by his last contribution. He effectively tried to make a case that New Zealand should show international leadership, should be out there and be one of the first to have an implemented emissions trading scheme, should lead the world, and should do the right thing. I think he asked how we can expect others to do the right thing\u2014and I paraphrase\u2014if we are not prepared to step up to the plate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI am not allowed to use the \u201Ch\u201D word, but I say to that Minister that he is full of it. When it comes to the \u201Ch\u201D word, I say that he is the archetypal definer of that word. In Opposition that member stood up and lambasted the then Labour Government for showing international leadership, and for saying we should be out there leading. As we said, we cannot expect others to follow us if we are not prepared to step up to the plate and to put this scheme in place. It was that member, who is now the Minister, who led the charge every day, saying exactly the opposite. He nods his head, because he knows he is the parliamentary definition of the \u201Ch\u201D word. He will say anything now, absolutely anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1a2a75f7de49d4894cc6fb8b371fbf\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: Keep calling him a hero!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998e1ed3288b47f382098757a94bab63\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: No, the word is not \u201Chero\u201D; I am not allowed to use the unparliamentary word. What it is about for Hekia Parata is having a different position in Opposition when it lambasted the then Government. The Minister, when in Opposition, asked why New Zealand should be first, why New Zealand should show leadership, why we should be ahead of our trading partners, why we should not wait for the United States and others and the big polluters, and why we should not wait until the large contributors in terms of pollution have got their acts together before we do anything. Yet today, I say to Hekia Parata, the Minister stands up and says exactly the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Minister has no credibility, at all. Nick Smith, as Minister for ACC, cannot find any money for accident compensation. His Government cannot find any money for superannuation or for real training for the unemployed. It cannot find any more money for health. It tells teachers that there will be no money next year. But when it comes to a little deal in the back of a darkened room with the M\u0101ori Party\u2014a very slippery deal that has never been put under scrutiny and that opens a can of worms around the whole Treaty debate\u2014then, oh, it is all OK! A Treaty clause that was done in 18 minutes, or with 18 minutes to go, is OK! I say to that member that he is a disgrace as a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thought that even Nick Smith would not have the gall to get up and say exactly the opposite of what he said not a year ago when Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme was going through. He lambasted us for it. He said we should not show leadership. He said we should stay behind and do nothing until the great polluters\u2014the United States and the European countries\u2014had got their act together, and today he stands up and says the opposite. He makes the case that his Government is showing leadership. It is appropriate, he says, that his Government is out there as the No. 1 or No. 2 country to put together an emissions trading scheme. I ask the Minister, Nick Smith, how on earth he can exhibit such gall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Minister grins away in his boyish way. Does he not realise that these things are recorded in Hansard and that editorial writers and journalists actually listen and report what he says? Does he not realise that embassies around the world and ambassadors, in preparation for Copenhagen, take note of what happens in this place and what Ministers say in this place? There will be Governments, ambassadors, and international officials around the world who are laughing at that Minister. No, they will probably not be laughing; they will be shaking their heads in dismay as we proceed to an international conference that will deal with possibly one of the most important issues of our time and of our generation. That Minister will get up and try to be credible at an international conference. Does he not know that ambassadors and his ministerial equivalents around the world will have read what he said a year ago and will have made file notes to their capitals? As he said, we are the first or second country, possibly, that will do this and some of the eyes of the world look at what happens in this place around this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002299057e1c066a42bfbd019375b9563d98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299057e1c066a42bfbd019375b9563d98\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Personal denigration has always been Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s approach to such issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225071637a3a7b4a2fa00c013223650788\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Deal with the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9908c7c73d4c28b533d94e9fa1e659\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to deal with the facts. Let us go through the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b106ee4e5d4c928d1828d211787ed9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What did you say before, when you were in Opposition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6253836885405eab2f9db741f853f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me quote directly from what National did say in its minority report, and let us compare it with the bill. The first thing I said was that New Zealand should not be leading the world and that New Zealand should be doing its fair share. That is exactly what this bill does. We said in that minority report and in our policy that we should take an intensity approach to allocation. What do we do in this bill? We do exactly that, I say to Mr Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254bd6b404abd4c278c3126dcd5b882eb\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t say that in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b167f1bd925445ec853a88a405e3dd83\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We did indeed say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c448204df61f47ea92a45f53822e8631\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t say that in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47f2c41027b4a469388b85692a1f0a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I challenge Mr Cosgrove to read the record. He is a johnny-come-lately to this issue. He was not on the select committee. I challenge him to read our policy, because that is exactly what we said we would do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212254cf4a6154dd18eb107755f761963\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Read your Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558aaeb67e614a29833f6b019c8c02e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that is what is in my Hansard. I also said we should provide a greater level of support for the fishing industry, and we have done that. I said we would provide 90 percent support for the fishing industry\u2014and we have done that. I expressed the view\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364bb62a205d42fe87ecf4c8ff940956\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Not the whole fishing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff91eb8841e476bb8f115157f00e5b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to a point made by Moana Mackey. She will be interested because she has misunderstood a provision, but first I want to finish my comments to Mr Cosgrove. We also said that the 8 percent phase-out rate was too great, and we said we would take a different rate. We said we would align with Australia\u2014Australia is 1.3 percent and we are 1.3 percent\u2014in every key respect, and I challenge members opposite to find a single area in our emissions trading policy that we took to the last election that is not consistent with this bill. We are doing exactly what we said we would. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI now want to deal with a specific point, because I think that Moana Mackey actually does not understand the bill. Moana Mackey made a mistake, and I do want Parliament to know exactly what we are addressing. The question with this bill is whether we are providing the support for the quota holders or the fishing operators. The argument from officials has been relatively balanced, and Moana Mackey said that all the support in the amendments is going to the quota holders, but that is not actually correct. Let me explain why. As a consequence of these amendments the fuel price increase will be halved in that period. Because of the two for one, rather than the price of diesel going up by 7c per litre it will go up by 3.5c per litre. Who benefits from that? The fishing vessel operator. In effect, and if we look at the fiscals that have been provided in the advice, we have the choice of providing the support for the quota holder or providing the support for the fishing vessel operator. The reduction in the increase in the price of diesel is a benefit for the fishing vessel operator. The other provision, which provides the allocation to the quota holder, provides the other benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo the member\u2019s claim is simply incorrect. She does not understand the bill. The reality is that there is a benefit from these amendments to the fishing vessel operators, and that is part of the package of reforms that we have provided for in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbdaa42f1f92463c9f5357739cb9f92c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbdaa42f1f92463c9f5357739cb9f92c\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E George Orwell coined the terms \u201Cnewspeak\u201D or \u201Cdoublespeak\u201D to describe language that makes the bad seem to be good, the unacceptable and the truly terrible seem to be acceptable, and the inappropriate seem to be appropriate. They are the terms for a whole new language, and they seem to me to encapsulate the whole approach of this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill and what it is about. It is Orwellian. The whole thing tries to make it look as though we are reducing our emissions, when in fact we have a bill that will increase our emissions. This bill tries to make us look good, so that the Minister can to go to Copenhagen and stand up and say: \u201CLook! We have an emissions trading scheme in place. Isn\u2019t it fantastic!\u201D. He will be able to go out to New Zealanders and say the Government cares about climate change and really worries about it. He will also be able to say he has a bill in place, but, when we look at the fine print, we see that it will increase our carbon emissions for at least the next 10, or possibly 20, years. The Minister in the chair, Dr Nick Smith, is shaking his head. The Minister will not tell us for how long emissions will increase but it seems that it will be for the next 10, and possibly more, years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHere we have a bill that we are pretending will reduce our emissions, when it will increase our emissions. Here we have a bill that basically tells the major industries of New Zealand: \u201CLook guys, it\u2019s business as usual. Just carry on using your coal. Let\u2019s carry on building our motorways. Let\u2019s just carry on as we are. We have this fig leaf, this emissions trading system in place, so we can say to the world and to New Zealanders that we really care about climate change. Let\u2019s just pay for the polluters and just carry on as usual.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThen we had the extraordinary spectacle of a member of this Committee standing up to say that we should be doing nothing about climate change, and that climate change is all nonsense. It is interesting that my colleagues Moana Mackey and Shane Ardern are here in this Chamber. All three of us went recently to Tanzania for a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference. The major issue there was climate change. Were the delegates there sitting around and debating whether climate change was real and whether we should do nothing? No, they were not. There was an intense discussion. Delegate after delegate said they were not discussing in the abstract whether climate change existed; delegates said they were confronting the reality of it every single day. They were horrified by the slow progress of nations like New Zealand, in the face of what they saw as overwhelming evidence of climate change\u2014for example, floods and droughts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhen the President of Tanzania opened the conference, he said that everywhere in Tanzania people were confronted with the effects of climate change. The snow on Mount Kilimanjaro is melting, there is salination of coastal islands, there is coastal erosion in the whole coastal area, and there is desertification. We went on a trip, and everywhere we saw animals\u2014cows\u2014that were starving and so thin that the SPCA would consider them to be cases of animal cruelty. Everywhere there was evidence of desertification. Animals are stressed. Tourists go to Tanzania to see the migration of the magnificent animals, but the animals are very stressed. Because their breeding grounds are affected, people worry that there will be no migration of animals, so the tourists will have nothing to go to see. Those are just some of the examples from Tanzania. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELast year I went with my colleague Steve Chadwick to a Viet Namese seminar on climate change, and I found the Viet Namese were passionate about it. They said that 20 million people who are living in their low-lying coastal areas will be affected, and this could happen in the next few years. The Bangladesh delegates said a 1 metre rise in sea level would inundate 17 percent of their country, displace 15 million people, and so on and so forth. The fact is that everywhere I have been, every developing nation delegate whom I have talked to says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218cd0ebba8fa46329a2b13fe211413d3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Before the member proceeds, can I just have a wee go at this bell. I want to see whether I can give it a decent work over. No, so we will be working to a manual system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1cf2c05a1f14cf186a6ea92a93138ef\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We can all pretend to ignore the bell and say we cannot hear it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the idea from the ACT member. It is embarrassing that we have someone sitting here like King Canute, with his head in the sand and pretending that all of this is nonsense. All of us will not just be called to account by future generations but will be called on to assist the millions, probably billions, of people who will suffer if we do not respond to climate change quickly enough. But also, more particularly, there will be the millions\u2014billions\u2014of environmental refugees. They will be heading for New Zealand, and here we are with our heads in the sand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d722bd3501d841349e3d9003e9d540fc\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking up for the poor. Speaking up for second-class citizens. Speaking up for the underprivileged. Speaking up for the have-nots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022785fc69856344115bfc6f47e453ae07b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Here we have the member saying he is speaking up for petrol users, and about the price of petrol or electricity next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225834a71b38fd4365895f87120345ca29\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022942810910432479cae067e9d3a39149e\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute. I presume the member has children. We all say in this Chamber that we are worried about children. We are always wringing our hands about children. But the single most important thing for our children is that they will have a world that is habitable. The idea that we can just sit here and worry about the price of electricity next year, while allowing our children to inherit a world that will be uninhabitable, is, quite frankly, unthinkable. But the trouble with many members of this House is that we think in terms of 1 or 2 years; we do not think about the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAt the conference on climate change in Viet Nam there was a debate about the idea that countries with the highest per capita emissions\u2014and, of course, we do not need to be reminded that New Zealand has the sixth-worst carbon footprint in the world, per capita\u2014should have added global responsibilities for combating climate change and assisting low carbon - emitting countries. In particular, delegates said that countries with the worst carbon footprint, like New Zealand, should have a special obligation to take in the millions of climate change refugees who will need to find somewhere to live. That is already being debated, so we need to be aware of that. That debate may well develop momentum. We can sit here like the ACT member, saying we contribute only point something or other of one percent of global emissions, but the truth is that we are, on a per capita basis, the sixth-worst country in the world. We may well find ourselves being confronted with an obligation, because we are a high-emitting country on a per capita basis, to take in all of those climate change refugees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ETo get back to this bill, I say that most of us in this House accept that there is an issue that needs to be dealt with. That is progress, considering that only a few years ago many members of this House, perhaps most, were denying that there was even an issue. However, what we have now is a bill that makes it look as though we are doing something, when we are not. That is really what it is; it is a public relations bill. It is like a fig leaf that we put in front of ourselves in order to pretend that we are taking action and doing something. But this bill will actually increase our emissions, not decrease them. So it is an Orwellian bill: it makes the bad look good; it makes the unacceptable look acceptable; and it gives the Government and the Minister, Nick Smith, something to talk about. But how can the Minister, in all conscience, come up with a bill that he knows will increase our emissions and will enable the major polluters to carry on polluting? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis bill sends the signal that it is business as usual. In the rest of the world, particularly in Europe, everyone is switching to a low-carbon economy, yet we have no incentive to switch to a low-carbon economy. Because there are no incentives to do so, we will be left behind. If we think of this issue simply from a business perspective, why would we allow New Zealand to be left behind and not give anyone incentives to move to a low-carbon economy? This bill does not make sense. It is Orwellian and is designed simply for public relations purposes. As Russel Norman said, our children and our children\u2019s children will curse us for doing this. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f127c9ca80174753b316c64ea1bea487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f127c9ca80174753b316c64ea1bea487\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call will go to the Hon David Parker, but let me make some observations at this point in an attempt to assist the Committee. Firstly, in respect of where the call goes, by convention if a member has had a call or two calls, and someone else has not had a call, the call normally goes to the person who has not spoken. I see affirming glances and assurances from members in the Chamber. That is the process. If a party wants a member to have a second call, when someone else is seeking the call for the first time, that becomes a matter for the party\u2019s whip. It is not for me to rule on that convention, because I would give the call to someone who has not taken a call. That is the first thing. Secondly, Part 1 is very big and contains the substance of the bill, but the debate seems to have developed into a general debate on climate change. It would be very helpful to the Chair, and to everybody else, if members could reference their speeches to the clauses of this large bill, so that we might make some progress. The member indicating to me should not do that; I am just saying where we are going. No one particularly is being accused; I am making a general statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f974dc4e34904d549728871a69039708\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f974dc4e34904d549728871a69039708\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would note for listeners that I have been seeking a call for 4 hours. The Minister in the chair, the Minister for Climate Change Issues, has been making accusations that I will not explain the difference between subsidy and transitional assistance. I am grateful for the call in order to be able to respond to some of the issues that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFor a start, I shall respond to something that Dr Paul Hutchison said last night. He used the example of Hunua and said there are two major sources of employment up there that are affected by emissions pricing: greenhouses that use fossil fuels for heating, and the steelworks. There are two points to be made there. Firstly, in respect of greenhouses, the conversion of their fuel source for heat from coal to renewables is happening. I have had reports recently that woodchip boilers are now close to economic, and they are made economic, in comparison with coal, by this legislation as it stands. Secondly, in respect of the steelworks, it is interesting that, in terms of the ridiculous rate of free allocation, the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, which represents most of those steelworkers, told the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it was not impressed by the huge subsidy, extending out for many years, in respect of free allocation for industry, because the union knew that it would be to the cost of other members it represents in other parts of the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhile Dr Nick Smith is temporarily engaged elsewhere, I will flick quickly to the Treaty of Waitangi issues. Firstly, the process around the Treaty of Waitangi clause was terrible. It did not go before the select committee. We have not had enough time to consider it properly. So far as I have been able to gauge from reading it now, it looks quite a well-drafted clause. It is likely that Labour will support that amendment. I feel a little bit at risk in doing that, because I have not had the benefit of the normal checks and balances of the select committee process in order to ensure that my understanding of it is correct and that I am not making a mistake. None the less we will probably take that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat we do not approve of is the special deal for some landowners of pre-1990 forests. That is an unprincipled decision. There was no withholding of information by the Crown, and there is no justification for the special deal that has been done in respect of those assets. It breaches the full and final settlement Treaty principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ec8bcec2f648f3914325b9111090b1\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: You did the same deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef4bbcad07147c491c1cbee46bd58eb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We did not, I say to Mr Quinn. That is just nonsense. That is not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI refer members to an amendment that I have prepared on the Treaty issue. It inserts a new section 226, which states: \u201CNo additional compensation will be accorded to any pre-1990 forest landowner on the basis that the land was transferred to the owner under a Treaty settlement unless it is proven that the Crown made misrepresentations or withheld material information about emissions pricing at the time of settlement.\u201D So if there was misrepresentation or withholding of material information, then, yes, there should be recompense, but if there was not, there should not be. I encourage all members of the Committee to vote for that amendment, because if, as Dr Smith says, there was misrepresentation or withholding of information, then those landowners can get additional compensation; if they cannot get it, then they are in the same position as any other landowner, in just the same way as everyone is subject to the Income Tax Act, the Resource Management Act, and, now, the emissions trading legislation. That is as it should be. We have not, for example, taken back the windfall gains that come from advantages that were not thought of at the time when the settlement was agreed, such as the advantages that accrue from the New Zealand - China free-trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will just respond briefly on the issue of electricity emissions. We heard Dr Smith saying that giving a discount to major emitters in the electricity field saves consumers money. Well, that is a moot point. That is not clear. The reality is that electricity is heavily influenced by the cost of new generation, and the cost of new generation does not change with that sweetheart deal for the electricity emitters. So I have an amendment to deal with that. It inserts a new section 222C(4), which states: \u201CThat before the 2 for 1 emissions discount for electricity emissions is allowed, the emitter must prove\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e6150399fb4742947367c142e791ab\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the next speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3d9b63694849c0a5a3b343815ef427\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807ad3c489b340acb2314878bbd4a55a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member has had two consecutive calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dee52a3afdc4099946398d52f6a2c96\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022717ac65c898544e48a8a354f2c2cfdb8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have very exact records.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002258ffeca10d0d4ca496f01fa5b40549f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258ffeca10d0d4ca496f01fa5b40549f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My understanding of the agreement is that members were entitled to consecutive calls, and that there is no restriction on the number of occasions that could occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10a4fd497244cf09d6de40837b6795f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Your understanding is incorrect. We had a clear ruling on this yesterday. Members get consecutive calls on one occasion per part. The member had his yesterday. We are still on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221d6562578e32465c912967e2f397c333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d6562578e32465c912967e2f397c333\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The underlying Standing Order says that members are entitled to up to four calls per part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a06bd9b72a4ea68cc0bce2626d8502\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not really need any assistance. What happened yesterday was that leave was taken. Any member could have objected to that leave. It was quite specific. I read it out twice yesterday, and members, I thought, had some understanding of it. I will read the portion to the member again so that we understand it: \u201CThe direction of the House allows members to have unlimited calls of 5 minutes each but not more than two consecutive speeches on each part of any provision.\u201D That is quite clear. We have ruled on that, and there is acceptance of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002271f7f433ff6e425bb6f686388fed54a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271f7f433ff6e425bb6f686388fed54a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek leave, because I do have great respect for Mr Parker and he has a number of amendments and considerable knowledge in this area, for him just on this occasion to have the second continuous call so he can speak to his amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5619bb83c044a28c21c7db94be787f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. This is a one-off. Is anyone opposed to that course of action? No one is opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222522b08eeab34be4a81c20f6910eea26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222522b08eeab34be4a81c20f6910eea26\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate it, I say to Dr Smith. While the Minister is in the chair I also acknowledge that in respect of tree weeds, I agree that the amendment that is proposed is appropriate. I thank the Minister for addressing that issue. It is an issue that I came to him about privately, outside the House, as well as raising it through the select committee process, and I accept that the solution is appropriate. But that is about the only good thing in this bill, in my opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will deal with another of our amendments. We have an amendment in my name saying that if we will not bring in methane, at least we should bring in nitrous oxide at a decent date. My nitrous oxide amendment says that notwithstanding any provision under this legislation, nitrous oxide comes in from 1 January 2013, with free allocation based on 90 percent of 2005 emissions, and any revenue collected between 1 January 2013 and December 2014 shall be used to subsidise the use of nitrification inhibitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to return to the issue that Dr Smith talked about\u2014the difference between free allocation being transitional assistance and a subsidy. There is a point of principle here, I say to Dr Smith. He has acknowledged that 80 percent of the extra free allocation goes to the agricultural sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022400eabee4a7a4cf4aa46a8893e2ed4e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: 80 percent of the total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6e822d299744029cc47c73b9a25845\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201480 percent of the total\u2014and we know that by 2050, relative to the current scheme, that is approximately 80 percent of $50 billion, which is $40 billion. Including interest\u2014and I know that the Minister disagrees with that\u2014that is responsible for $80 billion of the $110 billion of extra debt. The question is whether that is a subsidy, or whether it is something other than a subsidy. How does one define what a subsidy is? It is not a subsidy if it is a short-term transition assistance for what is already happening. It is a subsidy if it goes on for ever. That is one way in which it becomes a subsidy. It is no longer transitional assistance. It is only abating at 1.3 percent per annum. It is a subsidy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnother way it is a subsidy is the way Jeanette Fitzsimons articulated it to me last night, and I think she is right. She said that if it is covering existing base emissions, one can actually argue that it is transitional assistance as we move into a new paradigm; but if it is covering new emissions, because there is increased production or a new factory, then that is not transitional assistance; that is a straight subsidy. That answers that point quite clearly, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe reality is that we have now have a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme without a cap. There is no cap. That is another point. Dr Smith tried to say that Labour\u2019s scheme had no cap. Of course it did. Free emissions allocation rights were capped. Now they are not. Free emissions allocated rights were capped at 90 percent of 2005 levels. Now they are absolutely uncapped. In the case of agriculture, which does not come in until 2015, emissions growth between now and then is largely not covered by the scheme. So between 1997, when the Kyoto Protocol was signed, and 2015, all the emissions growth in the agricultural sector will be free for that sector. That is just wrong, and it is economically inefficient. As a consequence our country gets poorer rather than wealthier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other example the Minister used was the fishing sector. He said that the fishing sector was like the agricultural sector, and that the compensation there was for loss of value rather than loss of production out of the country, because the fishing would, of course, still happen in New Zealand. I absolutely agree. The same would happen in agriculture. The land cannot move, the cows cannot move, the factories cannot move. Production is not at risk of moving. Therefore, the basis of free allocation is not to stop leakage to another country. It is to fairly compensate for lost value as a consequence of the change in value brought about by emissions pricing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat will not be done until 2050, and even in 2050 more than 50 percent of the agricultural emissions will still be subsidised. It is economic nonsense. It is like supplementary minimum prices. It is like going back to the 1980s and phasing out tariff production but, during the transitional period, instead of having tariffs going down, increasing the protection during the phase-out period. That is what we would be doing if this system were applied to the tariff example. A better example is supplementary minimum prices, where land prices were artificially held up by highly subsidised agricultural prices. That is what is happening here. We have the additional disbenefit here of curbing afforestation, which, of course, soaks up carbon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002269347e7a7c694b34a227bcaadca83b6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269347e7a7c694b34a227bcaadca83b6c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I always enjoy dialogue and debate with Mr Parker, because he is thoughtful and well informed, and I think he has genuinely made a significant contribution to New Zealand in climate change policy by advancing an emissions trading scheme as the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues under the previous Government. But I also want to debate, in a proper way, a number of the points he raises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHe says that there is no economic analysis on which to base the approach with which we are doing the allocation. I accept that it is a debatable point; there is a range of views. But let me read very clearly the in-depth analysis that was done by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics in the conclusion of their inquiry. They said: \u201COur recommendation in the short run is to introduce an ETS with free allocation to competitiveness-at-risk sectors, with agriculture excluded if measurement of its emissions is prohibitively expensive. Free allocation should be output-linked and phased out as competitors adopt carbon pricing. If agriculture is initially excluded it should be transitioned into the ETS as measures become economic.\u201D That is the key conclusion of the major analysis that was done this year in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to cover a couple of other points. I want to deal with the question of economic analysis and how costings are done. I want to make this analogy for Mr Parker and Labour members, so they understand. If they want to argue that the $110 billion figure is the way in which we need to cost policies, that is, we need to add up the cost every year, and if it is a loss of income\u2014because it is a loss in terms of these changes\u2014then we need to add interest at the standard rate, which is what those figures involve. Let me tell members what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653c38a1f5cd4788a1ae67dc10383915\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Or borrowing costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bafccb31252c4a539d1a8daf17427840\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Labour has said that it will proceed with its tax policy in respect of research and development tax credits. That policy is described as costing $260 million. Labour members mean that there will be foregone revenue of $260 million per year. If we apply the same costing approach that Labour members are adopting, and we run it through to 2050, the cost of that policy is $43 billion. Is it fair, when Labour announces such a policy as we go before the next election, for us to use the same pricing method on a research and development tax credit that results in a loss of revenue in exactly the same way as they would want to use the $110 billion figure? The third point I will make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977d7903324b4c67beb1816b1583f942\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Then explain away the $50 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a50ba06882446e906d01499000c1c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member challenges the figure of $50 billion. The real crux\u2014and I have an interesting analysis here that the member may be interested in\u2014and the key sensitivity of that number is the phase-out rate. We are starting the phase-out rate a little earlier. We are doing it in 2013 at 1.3 percent. Agriculture tax starts in 2015 at 1.3 percent. If we change the rate to 2 percent, the number would reduce to $40 billion. It we reduced it to 4 percent, it would be $20 billion. If we phased out at 6 percent per year, it would come out at about zero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2e32d8c5e4807894ea2fc2ca3a3e1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: We could have compromised with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e25b17ec764b58b0c3f5620772bde3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Members on this side of the Chamber are saying this, and this is an invitation to the Opposition. I am not sure where international negotiations will go. I am not sure where the carbon price will go. I am not sure where the technologies that we are spending significant money on will go. I am not married absolutely to that 1.3 percent rate. That is why it is one of the key features that will be reviewed in 2011. Our policy position is that that phase-out rate should be in line with our major trading competitors, as per the comprehensive analysis from the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics. When the Government says that the 1.3 percent rate is only in the short term, for Labour members to put great weight on what the implications of that will be in respect of 10, 20, 30, or 40 years\u2019 time is, in my view, quite misleading. When we do the review in 2011, I invite Labour to engage with the Government, because the analysis is very sensitive to that rate. The last point I will make is this: if we scratch the surface of what Mr Parker just advised us, if the allocation is just to 2030\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0055d5d1d1d44ba9025a7aad5239deb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0055d5d1d1d44ba9025a7aad5239deb\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the issue of phase-out for industry and agriculture, because I have tabled Supplementary Order Papers that would deal with this issue. They set out a position that I really wish the Minister in the chair, Dr Nick Smith, would consider in light of the comments he has just made about the unlikelihood of the 1.3 percent rate surviving. One of those Supplementary Order Papers changes the phase-out of free allocation to industrial emitters to a defined 18-year phase-out, with all assistance ending in 2030. It does that by amending clause 22. It inserts new sections 82 and 85A into the Act. The phase-out rate is too slow. One of the problems is that there is no specified date at which allocation will end. Under the existing legislation in force now, there would be a phase-out of all free credits by 2030, but under the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, there will be an indefinite continuation of free credits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227699e0dcd3b3456c9f8ac7fc0b796a73\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Same as Aussie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e67483010b42659063cce4467f235f\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: We have a completely different emissions trading profile from Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd85aa33f204166822e4bed5b17453f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Because they\u2019re wrong doesn\u2019t mean we should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56d1b98fc8644519d27df12da85cabf\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good point. Just because another jurisdiction is doing something that is flawed does not mean that we ought to copy them. That is one of the problems with harmonisation. I said to the Minister earlier, half-jokingly, that it might be the end of the career of the Liberal Party today or the next day, thanks to the stance he has taken\u2014which I happen to agree with\u2014on its Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. It just shows the folly of harmonisation, which is another argument that we will have to have. David Carter was reported as saying the other day that the Government plans to provide free credits for agriculture for 90 years. That seems to be pretty close to the truth, given what others have said. The 1.3 percent per annum phase-out rate for free carbon credits means that taxpayers will still be funding over half of the emissions for high-intensity industry in 2050. According to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, the phase-out rates will stop the Government from achieving its 50 percent reduction target by 2050. The effect of this absurdly slow phase-out rate on free emission rights, compared with the status quo, is shown in a couple of graphs in the Labour Party minority report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe comparison between the phase-out of the existing scheme and the scheme that the Minister proposes is quite instructive. Members will see on this graph the point where all assistance would phase out under the current scheme, and under the amendments that the Minister proposes. Basically, for high-intensity industries it continues indefinitely. For medium-intensity industries it continues for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ECompare that with another graph I have here, which shows the situation under the Waxman-Markey Bill, which is the leading proposal in the United States. One can see that at 2030 there is a very steep phase-out for all assistance. For all the Minister likes to say that he proposes the same sort of thing that is being done by our trading partners and our competitors, it is actually not so, because of the design of these amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is not just industry where we need to be concerned about the phase-out. There is another Supplementary Order Paper dealing with agriculture. Again, the Supplementary Order Paper phases out all assistance for agriculture by 2030, consistent with the industrial allocation amendment that I have just spoken about. It would also return the entry date for agriculture into the scheme to 1 January 2013, rather than 1 January 2015. This is an essential amendment for fiscal responsibility, because it is the ridiculously generous allocation to agriculture in the amendment that causes the blow-out in the accounts that we have had so much debate about in the House and which is so unjustified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis assistance, as David Carter told us, will go on for another 90 years. The country cannot afford it. The Minister has admitted that it is unlikely to survive reviews. Why on earth we are enacting it and sending the signal to the market that cannot simply be maintained beyond the next review period, is beyond members on this side of the Chamber. It is useful to recall what was said by the select committee on this topic. We said in our minority report that there should not be a change to the current entry date into the emissions trading scheme for agriculture of 1 January 2012. We all know the argument: agriculture contributes nearly 50 percent of all New Zealand emissions. However, under this bill the agriculture sector is required to be responsible for only 4 percent of the total costs of meeting our international obligations. There cannot be any policy justification for delaying the date of entry for agriculture or not dealing to the phase-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002278ffdbb7fc11443d964132088d59c0f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278ffdbb7fc11443d964132088d59c0f6\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I owe you an apology from last night, Mr Chairperson, because I misunderstood the advice I had received from Mary Harris about the consecutive speech motion. When I checked that this morning your ruling was absolutely right on point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI want to respond to the comments of Dr Smith, who said the ACT Party is opposed to an emissions trading scheme. Yes, it is. But the ACT Party has also made it very clear that if we are to have any sort of tax on carbon, it should be a carbon tax. So there is the option of negotiating a carbon tax with the ACT Party. But Dr Nick Smith also said if he did not do this deal with the M\u0101ori Party, there was no guarantee that he could have done a deal with ACT next year. I ask Dr Smith why he could not have done a deal with the M\u0101ori Party then. If the M\u0101ori Party had more time to consider the implications of this bill, it might well have done a much better deal for itself and for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little about the electricity industry. I do this for the benefit of Sue Kedgley. Let me see whether I can explain how the electricity industry works, in the simplest possible terms. Electricity is generated either from renewable sources, like geothermal or water, or from thermal sources, like gas and coal. Essentially, the emissions trading scheme puts a price on the carbon discharges from thermal power stations. So, for example, if Contact Energy was to generate electricity from gas, it would have to pay a tax on its emissions from its thermal power plants. That has the effect of costing Contact Energy\u2014and another example is Genesis Energy, in respect of the Huntly power station\u2014more to generate that electricity. It has been estimated that at $25 a tonne for carbon, it will add about 10 percent to the cost of electricity. But it goes further than that, because that 10 percent increase in the price of electricity is charged across the whole market. Everyone pays more for electricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIn respect of the power stations that operate from renewable sources, from hydro and from geothermal generation, they do not pay that carbon tax, and that increase in the price of electricity is a windfall gain. In other words, Contact Energy, TrustPower, Mighty River Power, and Meridian Energy, which all own hydro stations, will be able to charge more for their electricity and it will not cost them any more to produce it. That will result in windfall profits. If Sue Kedgley takes objection to the ACT Party being the only party that is prepared to stand up and speak out about a 10 percent increase in the price of electricity from 2013, I wonder whether she actually understands what she is talking about. Essentially, she is condoning a massive increase in profits and a massive windfall gain, not just to State generators but to privately owned power operators. I ask Hekia Parata, again, how she can support a bill that will increase the price of electricity and have massive windfall gains going to those companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet us come back to fishing. Officials have calculated that the diesel that the fishing industry uses to drive its trawlers and its operations will generate some 600,000 tonnes of carbon. It has to pay for those emissions. It will get a 90 percent allowance for those emissions. But from 2013 it will need to pay for the full cost of those 600,000 tonnes of carbon. At $25 a tonne, that is $15 million a year. That is despite the fact that New Zealand gets an allocation of free units under the Kyoto Protocol because our fishing industry was generating carbon emissions in 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d361952da242af98d080e887842b01\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his acknowledgment. It was not necessary, but I thank him for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00226de75e01c0854fbdb2ccf96d01c6bd1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226de75e01c0854fbdb2ccf96d01c6bd1a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E At its heart the Kyoto Protocol is designed to take a problem that is environmental in its essence and turn it into a challenge that is economic. That is what a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system does. The Kyoto Protocol has also managed the awkwardness of only a few of the Western nations in the world signing up, by inventing the so-called flexibility mechanisms, the joint initiatives, and the cleaner development mechanisms. It does not work in practice, I freely can see that, but at least in theory we have a chance of the world moving along the cost curve at the same time. That is the idea of the Kyoto Protocol. For it to work, the full marginal price of pollution needs to be faced by the polluter. That is the essence of it. The full price at the margin has to be faced by the polluter in question. That is the case in theory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIn the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill we do not see anything of the sort. We see the right price not being put in place in a timely manner. There are no right signals to the right players at the right time. That is as a result of an admixture of phase-outs and of arrangements that have come into play and distorted the original theory of the Kyoto Protocol and the original idea of \u201Ccap and trade\u201D to the point where it is now well short of what it could be. That is a shame. The essence of our opposition to this legislation is around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ELet me put it to the Minister in words of one syllable. If we as a nation have the goal of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent by 2050\u2014if we will halve them in the next 41 years\u2014how come we are about to adopt legislation that does not have a complete phase-in of the economic signals until 2090? If we are supposed to be getting ourselves to halfway by 2050, why are the signals not fully coming in until 2090? Under the Parker legislation, which will now be repealed, that 2090 date would have been 2030. There is much more that I could say about that in the detail, but instead of going on about the environmental shortcomings of it, I want to speak of the social shortcomings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThis Kyoto Protocol and emissions trading legislation seeks to transfer wealth. That is the guts of it. If there is no change in signals from a non-polluter to a polluter, then there will be no reaction by the polluter, which of course includes all of us. In this legislation, in short, the big end of town is winning. It does not matter whether it is the big end of \u201Cwhite town\u201D or the big end of \u201Cbrown town\u201D, the big end of town is winning. The corollary to that is that the small end of town, both white and brown, is losing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ELast night we heard Jeanette Fitzsimons giving a careful anatomy of the sell-out of the M\u0101ori Party. She did it more in sadness than in anger. But she looked at the criteria that the M\u0101ori Party used to vote against the Parker legislation and put the same criteria against the current legislation. She said that she was bewildered, she was sad, and she was confused. She was really saying that the M\u0101ori Party has lost its principle. Let us leave aside the fact that Ng\u0101i Tahu has a deal for its trees, or that there are another few thousand houses in the mix. That is the essence of it for the M\u0101ori Party, and for M\u0101oridom that will not work. M\u0101oridom will be subsidising Comalco and other big polluters\u2014foreseeably. That is not OK. M\u0101ori are disproportionately at the small end of town; relatively few M\u0101ori are at the big end of town. Therefore, nearly all M\u0101ori will be worse off under this legislation than under the Parker legislation. The M\u0101ori Party said that the Parker legislation did not go far enough for them. It is now supporting legislation that goes nowhere near as far as the Parker legislation did, and that has caused the Green Party to express its bewilderment. I say, in a much more direct way, that it is a sell-out and that the small end of \u201Cbrown town\u201D loses. They are taxpayers. They are trying to make their way as families year by year, and they will not see a reduction in their taxes\u2014they will see an increase in their taxes\u2014as a result of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002248451a83dfbf4ed4a7f6233b2788b286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248451a83dfbf4ed4a7f6233b2788b286\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take my first call on the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The people in my electorate whom I have spoken to about it over the last few days have had one question for me: why should we pay through our taxes or through a lower level of public services in order to subsidise the big polluters? Their question is very simple. We can get engaged in all of the detail of the debate here, but the people in my electorate want to know why they should pay higher taxes or have a lower level of public services, so that the big emitters, such as Rio Tinto and its Canadian and Chinese owners, can make a larger profit and be subsidised by the Government for their emissions. Fundamentally, that is what this is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to respond to some of the comments made last night by Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party. He accused me of not listening to him, but I assure him that I listened very carefully to everything he said. I found his speech about the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and the need for a Treaty clause in legislation quite interesting. I do not think members on this side of the House have ever had the level of difficulty with those ideas that the party he now sits beside on the governing side of the House has had with them. It was the party he now sits with that talked about the drift towards racial separatism and that ran the \u201CIwi/Kiwi\u201D campaign. It is no wonder that the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s core supporters, on seeing the M\u0101ori Party voting for a bill like this, which was introduced by the National Government and which the M\u0101ori Party is now supporting, have gone into an absolute revolt, as we have discovered from the news stories that have been coming out in the last half-hour or so. They say that the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s national council is having a special meeting this afternoon to discuss whether it supports the position taken by the M\u0101ori Party leadership to support this bill introduced by the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis bill will increase the costs on some of the lowest-income New Zealanders. Of course, we know that National would rather tax people at the lower end of the income spectrum, because the very first thing that it did when it came into Government\u2014and the M\u0101ori Party voted for it\u2014was to increase taxes on the lowest-income New Zealanders so that it could give bigger tax cuts to those on the highest incomes. That has direct relevance to this debate. If National\u2019s proposed amendments to the emissions trading scheme go through, the taxpayer\u2014and, because of the way that National has structured the tax system, the lowest-income taxpayers now pay a higher rate of tax than they otherwise would have\u2014will end up footing the bill for emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI say to the M\u0101ori Party that it is not too late. I know that National\u2019s junior whip sitting over there with them there is trying to make sure that National still has the votes to get this legislation through the House, but I tell the M\u0101ori Party members to listen to their members, who are having meetings as we speak. They have called meetings to tell the M\u0101ori Party leadership not to do this to M\u0101ori voters. I tell the M\u0101ori Party members to listen to what their members and supporters are saying. They are saying it is not too late to vote against this bill. I encourage the M\u0101ori Party members to listen to what they are saying. As one of the M\u0101ori Party members said: \u201CEven though there is a signed deal on the table between the Maori Party and National, the third and final vote is yet to be taken,\u201D. It is not too late for the M\u0101ori Party members to say that, no, they made a mistake; that they stand by the minority report that they wrote in the first place that said that Labour\u2019s scheme did not go far enough and they wanted something tougher; and that they will not vote for something that waters down the scheme and gives M\u0101ori an even worse deal than what they would have got previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party members could stand up; it is not too late for them to change their minds, vote against this bill, and stand up for the people who voted for them. As is now being reported in the media, \u201CThe M\u0101ori Party membership are becoming increasingly aware of the huge debt that our people are going to have to pay, despite all the window dressing going on by the leadership about deals struck with Iwi and the $4 per week being saved with cheaper petrol and electricity prices \u2026 That figure fails in comparison with a 40 year debt of anything between $110 and $220 billion.\u201D That is what the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s membership is saying to the leadership. It is not the Labour Party\u2019s position; it is the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s grassroots membership saying that. I tell Te Ururoa Flavell to listen to what those people are saying. It is not too late. The final votes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c9d79a47a545f98c2f7d709fa68492\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: The foreshore!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa0cc025948472bbb2207311cc86307\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He can talk about the foreshore and seabed, but this issue is the biggest sell-out by the M\u0101ori Party since it has been in Parliament. His membership will desert his party over it, if the reports coming through now are anything to go by. The M\u0101ori Party will be abandoned by its membership if it goes ahead and votes for this bill. M\u0101ori Party sources calculate that M\u0101ori will pay $500 million to $1 billion a year through the cutting of services, increases in taxes, or the sale of assets. How on earth can the M\u0101ori Party justify that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00229a9fc5a5e5f9487fb9101b730b4882de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a9fc5a5e5f9487fb9101b730b4882de\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I really enjoyed that contribution from Chris Hipkins. It was a truly remarkable contribution given the news release that he put out on Sunday, where he said that he had had a rush of constituents to his office concerned about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df9557f3b6f4438a51f56546786dfae\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is certainly a convention in this House, if not binding under the Standing Orders, that the Minister in the chair in the Committee stage of a debate is there to serve the Committee by responding to the questions that it poses on the policy in the bill. It seems to me to be at odds with that convention that the Minister has launched into an attack on a member of this House about a press release from the previous week on an arguably unrelated aspect of business. I ask you to restrain the Minister and bring him back within the normal conventions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c75fe3d5fc74088bec14a831b080ac9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister in the chair was responding to an issue raised by the member, and I am prepared to hear the argument at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e157119c4492446b94087815fca9c7bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A key part of the amendments we are making to the emissions trading scheme is to prevent a 10 percent increase in the price of power on 1 January, and to put in place on 1 July next year a lesser increase, while having a responsible climate change policy. I challenge Mr Hipkins to say how he can challenge the M\u0101ori Party about integrity, when on Sunday he said: \u201CI\u2019m going to Parliament this week to do all I can to fight power-price hikes.\u201D, and then his own colleague tabled a Supplementary Order Paper to reverse changes in those amendments, which would put power prices up. I say to Mr Hipkins that he is an embarrassment to his electorate, and to himself, if he is going to run those sorts of lines and then challenge the M\u0101ori Party about impacts on low-income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe advice is absolutely consistent. The changes the M\u0101ori Party is supporting will result in the lesser cost of $165 per year on every single New Zealand household. That is absolutely consistent in the advice. The real question for Mr Hipkins is whether he will support the M\u0101ori Party and the National Party in reducing that price impact. The very first issue that the M\u0101ori Party put on the table in its negotiations was the same issue that Chris Hipkins raised: lower impact costs on households. So I simply say to Mr Hipkins that he should be supporting the M\u0101ori Party, and he should be thanking it for helping not only M\u0101ori but all families in reducing the impact of the emissions trading scheme on those households by $165 per year. If he is true to his word, he will be voting with the M\u0101ori Party and National for these very sensible amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00228e0c3c4fce4c4939be81103b1a855b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e0c3c4fce4c4939be81103b1a855b1f\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to some of the entry points for the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I did not come into this House to make life worse for my daughter, her peers, and any children whom she might have in the future. I did not come here for that purpose, and one of the reasons why we as the Labour Party are voting against this legislation is that it does nothing to advance the future for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ENational has always been the party of the status quo. What we have here is spin upon spin upon spin, layered on what is, essentially, a status quo document. The National Party has always been the party of big business. It is only recently that its members have discovered M\u0101ori big business, but it is still the party of big business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe are concerned\u2014deeply concerned\u2014about this legislation, because of not only its content but also its process, which I will come back to in a moment. The content of this legislation does nothing to incentivise our producers\u2014it does not matter whether they are agricultural producers or industrial producers\u2014to do things differently: to build a new economy, and to build a new productive base in this country on the basis of new methods. It does not help to build productivity and economic output for this country, based on new methods that are sensitive to not only the environment that we are blessed to live in, in this country, but also the needs of the planet\u2019s environment. That is the fundamental concern for us in Labour. This legislation provides no incentive to reduce emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf there is nothing else that National understands about climate change, can it please understand this? This watered-down scheme\u2014it is, in effect, a return to supplementary minimum prices\u2014panders to the corporates by giving them vast handouts, and it does nothing to incentivise them to change their behaviour in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. At least that is what we all understand; surely, we all understand that. The public knows that greenhouse gases need to be reduced if this planet is to survive in any kind of reasonable condition for our children and their children. So it is absolutely essential that some of the amendments that have been put up get proper consideration and support. If I am allowed to take a second call in a moment, I will go over some of those Supplementary Order Papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut I also want to talk about the process around this bill. The Government would not be in such distress now about the numbers, or be in such a shambles about the passage of this legislation, had it simply taken a breath and done it in a more consultative way. To give legislation of such importance as this only 6 weeks in front of a select committee is a travesty of the process. This Government has prostituted the processes of Parliament in order for the Minister for Climate Change Issues to say there is legislation with his name on it when he goes to Copenhagen. That is not a good enough reason for doing that. I say to Dr Smith that this legislation is not about him; it is about the future of New Zealand. It is about our contribution to the reduction of global warming, which is a man-made phenomenon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf this bill had gone through a proper process and had taken some time, we might have arrived at legislation that was durable\u2014at an emissions trading scheme that was durable. Instead of ramming through these completely inadequate\u2014worse than that; destructive\u2014clauses in this legislation, all that the Minister needed to do was, in fact, to extend the implementation date for the previous Labour Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme. All that he had to do was to delay the implementation of our scheme, give it a greater hearing, and let the M\u0101ori Party work out whether it was going to be advantageous to its people\u2014that is, not simply advantageous to five iwi corporates, but advantageous to M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 families in the lower socio-economic brackets in our country. This legislation will not do what the Government is trying to spin that it will do. It will not reduce power prices as it stands. It will require taxpayers to foot the bill for subsidies to large emitters to carry on with their emissions. Those large emitters will not only carry on but also increase their emissions. They will be allowed to increase their emissions; there will be no progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis issue is not meant to be about the Minister\u2019s ego in Copenhagen. He could easily have said New Zealand has an emissions trading scheme in place\u2014he could have said that in Copenhagen. He could even have said we were still in discussions about amending it. This is not about going to Copenhagen with nothing; we have something in place, so we could have held our heads up. When the first soundings of this legislation were broadcast through the diplomatic channels in the pre-Copenhagen conference, people laughed\u2014people laughed. The Minister thinks he is going to achieve something by way of reputation by having this bill\u2014this legislation with his name on it\u2014held up in Copenhagen. But when people look at it closely, they will continue to laugh. This legislation will do nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and, worse than that, it will require the low-paid, the low-income households, to pay for this scheme through a reduction in services\u2014whether they be reductions to education, to health, to other infrastructure, or to public services that they draw on and require in order to live with dignity in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI ask the M\u0101ori Party members not to be influenced by National sending its M\u0101ori members to cuddle up with them on their benches right now. They just need to be aware of what the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s membership is saying. They should be aware that the party\u2019s membership has dropped to the fact that this spin is completely transparent, and that this bill will not deliver the kinds of relief wanted by low-income M\u0101ori households\u2014relief that they would wish that their party would represent for them in this Parliament. It is time for the M\u0101ori Party to withdraw its votes and to listen. It is not too late. It is time now for the M\u0101ori Party to withdraw its votes on this bill and to vote it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe have an emissions trading scheme in place. Let us spend more time on achieving a durable consensus around that. It was the Minister who walked away from the bipartisan talks\u2014from the multiparty talks. It was the Minister who walked away, thinking he could sew up the M\u0101ori Party votes on this bill and get it passed. That is not good enough. It is a travesty, it is an abuse of parliamentary process, and it is not what, I would suggest, many National members came into this House to do. Regardless of the issue, surely they would not subscribe to that kind of abuse of process. This is the moment for the M\u0101ori Party to withdraw its votes on this bill, to listen to its membership, and to understand that what has been said by the Government, in terms of relief for low-income households, has been just spin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ELet us take time. Let us build, I say to the Minister, a durable consensus around the emissions trading scheme. This bill is a shambles. This process is a shambles. It is now getting to the point where the votes in support of the bill are at risk. The best thing that the Minister could do is to withdraw this bill, rather than suffer the ignominy of a defeat. He could withdraw it and say \u201CAll right, let us go back. Let us see if we can gain some multiparty consensus.\u201D The last thing that our farmers need is instability around the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fce15ded68744d4391942f7bf0167141\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fce15ded68744d4391942f7bf0167141\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin by just briefly awhi-ing the M\u0101ori Party, which is a membership-based, grassroots party like the Greens. We know what that means. We know that it leads to some difficult internal decisions. We know what it is going through at the moment. The M\u0101ori Party members should not withdraw their votes because Labour has asked them to, and they should not withdraw their votes because the Green Party has asked them to; they should listen to their members and do what their members are asking them to do, because that is who they are accountable to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI want mainly to talk now about what I think is the primary reason for the unease that is being caused to members of the M\u0101ori Party, to the Greens, and to most other people who oppose this legislation. It all comes down to the intensity basis for the allocation. That is what creates the huge inequities and the huge debts going forward into the future that this legislation creates. There has been a lot of talk about the phase-out rate of free allocation. Nobody seems to have twigged that under this legislation there is no phase-out. The 1.3 percent is a complete mirage. Any industry getting an allocation that grows by more than 1.3 percent a year gets no phase-out at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ELet us look at the dairying industry for a moment. Dairying output has been growing by 4.4 percent a year recently. That is a huge rate of growth, and the National Government and Fonterra want it to go on for ever. I do not know where they will put the cows, I do not know what they will do about the rivers, etc., but the fact is that is its output growth, and the free allocation depends on output. So we will get a 4.4 percent increase each year in the basis for the allocation, then a 1.3 percent decrease, leaving\u2014if my school maths serves me well\u2014a 3.1 percent increase in free allocation to the dairy industry every year. There is no phase-out. If Comalco manages to increase its production by more than 1.3 percent a year, it gets no phase-out, either. If Methanex manages to ramp right up to full production in two plants, it gets a massive increase, as well. The free allocation goes on, then, for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe key difficulty with it is not what happens in the next few years. It is not about how much we might help people with sunk investment in existing plant transition to a new world. What it means, though, is that new investment decisions\u2014people building new plants that will be trade-exposed, or existing plants significantly expanding in the trade-exposed area\u2014will not take the price of carbon into account in making those investment decisions. Investors who are looking at a choice between a low carbon investment and a high carbon emissions investment will have no encouragement at all to take the low carbon investment, because the intensity-based allocation says \u201CYou go for it, and the taxpayer will cover 90 percent of your increase in emissions, virtually for ever.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe other thing the intensity allocation does is it takes away what limited cap there was in the existing legislation. We had some argument previously between the Minister for Climate Change Issues and David Parker about whether there was a cap in the existing Parker legislation. In a sense there was, and in a sense there was not. The Act that is law now has no cap on emissions. Emissions can continue to grow, but at the full cost of carbon. What it does cap is free allocations, and that is what creates the full cost of carbon for growth in emissions. But that cap on allocation is taken away in this legislation, so in this bill neither emissions nor free allocations are capped. There is no sense at all in which it could be called a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ELet us go back to the fisheries management system of individual transferable quotas, which is often held up as the ideal \u201Ccap and trade\u2019\u201D system. Imagine a fisheries system with no total allowable catch: fishers had quotas and could trade them, but there was no total allowable catch. That is how stupid this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07825706fc64b36b66909d609e257e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07825706fc64b36b66909d609e257e2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou e te whanau. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana. There is a famous story in Te Ao M\u0101ori. It is about a kahawai\u2014not unlike the M\u0101ori Party\u2014and a great white shark. The great white shark said to the kahawai: \u201CLet\u2019s learn to live together. Let\u2019s swim in a common current, and get the feel of the environment.\u201D So the kahawai joined the shark, and they were swimming, cavorting, etc. But the shark got tired of that and said \u201CLet\u2019s get even closer.\u201D The kahawai came closer, and said \u201CHow close?\u201D. The shark went \u201CGulp!\u201D and said \u201CThat close!\u201D. This is the day the great white shark consumed the M\u0101ori minnow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs the M\u0101ori Party minnow disappears down the long throat of the great white shark, we can hear the shrieks of anguish from its membership. Some of those shrieks have been brought to our attention. Supporters are leaving the party as the real issues behind this legislation are becoming known by the wider public. This legislation could spell the end of the M\u0101ori Party. Actually, that happened when the M\u0101ori Party entered into a tawdry deal to reward the gentrified 1 percent of M\u0101ori with a foul settlement with a narrow group in the South Island, leaving the vast majority of M\u0101ori taxpayers to bear that burden for 40, 50, or 60 years. Does the member for Te Tai Tonga think she will not go the way of T\u016Btekawa Wyllie, who pulled a similar stunt, believing that he would save the interests of South Island M\u0101ori by going against the interests of wider M\u0101ori? He disappeared in 1999, never to be heard of again. That road lies before that member, because of this dreadful sell-out in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFortunately, the amplification of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s perfidy has captured the attention of the media. The supporters of Hone Harawira have now got hold of the guillotine he brought back from France, and they are applying it to the real culprits in this wretched affair\u2014the leadership of the party, who have taken the proud name of M\u0101oridom into this House and debased it. They have debased it through supporting this dangerous, anti-M\u0101ori, anti-public emissions trading legislation. That point needs to be made, because the burden for bearing the costs of this wretched scheme does not fall on the gentrified elite. It falls on the hard-working, garden-variety, living in \u201CStruggler Gully\u201D, M\u0101ori families who can ill afford to bear the burden of those expenses whilst at the same time finding dough for wh\u0101nau ora, finding the money for hospitals, and finding the money for education, which has been slashed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is bizarre. The M\u0101ori Party is willing to acquiesce and bring this legislation into the House that is an embarrassment for our entire country internationally. It defeats and negates every single ethic of kaitiakitanga. How dare those members stand and use those proud M\u0101ori terms in this House, whilst their actions indicate that although the mouth might say something\u2014kei ng\u0101 ngutu he k\u014Drero engari, kei raro te rahurahu\u2014every other element of their anatomy is doing the opposite. That is what we have seen today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis is a very sad day not only for the country, and not only for taxpayers, because it is a reversion to the terrible days when taxpayers subsidised negative producers in the economy; this is the day when M\u0101ori voters realise they made an egregious error when they placed their trust in that party, which for a trivial amount of money, something like $25 million, has turned round and imposed $110 billion worth of bills on future generations. Why did those members think the proud legacy of M\u0101ori environmentalism, stewardship, and belief in future generations should be passed off for such a trivial, miniscule amount of money? Up and down the country people have viewed the emissions trading scheme as something that is largely international and hard to understand, but, boy, they smell betrayal and they recognise treachery when they see it. This bill, as a consequence of this new development, shows that that party has decided to be treacherous to the interests of their own people, to not stand for the legacy of M\u0101ori environmentalism, and to sell out their own people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHistory must record that even if this bill does pass, it passes because of an act of deceit, an act that abrogates the very reason that M\u0101ori were sent to this House. They were not sent to this House so that the people who are ruining the environment can be paid to do so. They were not sent to this House to turn their backs on struggling families, struggling youth, and communities looking for a remedy to climate change. No, they were not sent here to do that, but that is what we see today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is a sad development that the Treaty of Waitangi settlement process has been held to ransom and actually lacerated as a consequence of this legislation. When society invests goodwill and trust into the process of settling historical grievances, it wants the nation to move on from that epoch and for all of us to be able to absorb and stand in the face of our international competitors as equally patriotic. Why should the M\u0101ori Party go around listening to the mischief-making lawyers and their deluded, gentrified M\u0101ori clients\u2014a very narrow band, who have no concern whatever for the majority of M\u0101oridom, and are concerned only for their own specific agenda? They have ruined M\u0101ori credentials of a patriotic nature. When we stand as M\u0101ori with our fellows, whether they are P\u0101keh\u0101, Asian, or whatever their ethnicity, we should all face equally the obligations of meeting our international duties, and we should not use the Treaty of Waitangi to deepen and feed the mentality of victimhood and grievance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe whole theory and the spirit underlying the Treaty settlement process is for Aotearoa to move on, but National was keen to open that wound again. It was keen to use simple trinkets, hiriwa, pieces of gold and silver miniscule in form, to open up the prospect that there can never ever be full and final settlements. Whenever a Government feels that it is expedient to go back and open up those historical wounds, it will do it. National does this to the shame of Doug Graham and to the shame of Jim Bolger, who took heroic steps. They never lied to Ng\u0101i Tahu; this nonsense that there was a great conspiracy to devalue their settlement, to defraud them of their assets, etc., is absolute rubbish. Dr Cullen himself hired an eminent Queen\u2019s Counsel, and not a skerrick of evidence was found that that level of larceny or villainy might have taken place. Doug Graham was a proud and honourable man, unlike members on that side of the House who on this particular issue use grievances as a crutch, deepening the grievance mentality that keeps the M\u0101ori Party alive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e41c98da52274806bb0ea04e38bb8383\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member is in full flight, but he did question whether members across the House were honourable, and I take offence at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228860b88eb9174abd874f518e4b42b4da\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I used the context of this issue. However, I am pleased\u2014no drama\u2014to withdraw and apologise. The point is taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENot only is the M\u0101ori Party membership abandoning the M\u0101ori Party because it does not listen to its members; unfortunately for its leadership, its only member of Parliament who at this stage is listening to the membership is the person it is trying to sack. But no doubt he will be back. I predict that if that party survives, that man will take it over. Then we will see. [Interruption] We are hearing profane emissions from the descendant of Ng\u0101i Tahu over there, but that is another matter. I will leave Mr Harawira and the M\u0101ori Party to the side, and I will come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe emissions trading legislation, in the unlikely event that it does pass, will not stand the test of time. It will be taken internationally as a watered-down, hackneyed version of something that could have been created had there been a grand coalition. Our colleagues made multiple entreaties. They were rejected at every particular point in the process. That is why this legislation not only is bad for the Treaty of Waitangi, not only is bad for M\u0101ori, but, in particular, is fatal for the M\u0101ori Party and the sell-outs from National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03c8e2ebbc64d86b190bba1a319a058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03c8e2ebbc64d86b190bba1a319a058\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table this document, which states: \u201Cto avoid taking decisions and approaches that lead to division and disharmony within the organisation;\u201D The document is the M\u0101ori Party constitution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b9c0433dee41c893a91421cbf214bf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4a98e3dd9a74b7fb8d5e572ccc8eb9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4a98e3dd9a74b7fb8d5e572ccc8eb9d\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Once again I find myself in complete agreement with the Hon Shane Jones. Maybe I will not use his great oratory to reinforce the point, but I say that what we have here is good Government making atrocious policy and also following an atrocious process. I just want to pick up the point that the Hon Shane Jones made, which I think is a very serious one for this Parliament to consider\u2014that is, the Government, by this decision in this Parliament, is saying that there is now no such thing as a full and final settlement. This bill is saying that any settlement can be reopened and relitigated, if the Government ever makes a decision that might somehow have a cost on an iwi that has had a settlement. Everyone knows that there was no underhand business in the settlement of the Ng\u0101i Tahu deal, but back then we never knew we would have an emissions trading scheme. God knows we never thought the country would be so stupid! But there we go. This means that if any Parliament makes a decision about the Resource Management Act, or anything like that with an impact on an iwi that has had a settlement, then suddenly the iwi will come back to Parliament, there will have to be some cash go across to it, and there will have to be some resources go across to it, because presumably the Government says there is no such thing as a full and final settlement. That is one of the real tragedies of what we have seen here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI think we all know in this Committee that that is not true. We know that the Government is not doing this because of the principles of the Treaty; it is doing it because it needs five votes. The Government has gone across to the M\u0101ori Party and asked what is necessary to get its support through all stages of this bill. That has meant that they have had to construct the idea that somehow a Treaty settlement has been breached, when in fact it has in no way been breached. That is not me saying that; that is Crown law saying that. So this is simple pork-barrel politics, which means that we have bad policy and bad process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere has also been a transfer of wealth to a particular iwi. Pre-1990 forest owners have not been treated in the same way, so the settlement is actually for just five iwi. M\u0101ori owned a lot of forests pre-1990, but unless those M\u0101ori are part of the five iwi they will completely miss out, like everyone else. So it is not particularly a race issue. It is not about M\u0101ori benefiting to the exclusion of P\u0101keh\u0101; it is actually about five iwi benefiting to the exclusion of all other M\u0101ori, and of all other New Zealanders. We have a policy there that is not about affirmative action for M\u0101ori or anything, or a special case for M\u0101ori; it is a special case for just five iwi, and it is saying that all the other iwi can go to hell. It is saying that all the other forest owners can go to hell\u2014they will not get a deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe also have National agreeing to take its emissions trading scheme and insert into it the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. I ask members to ask themselves what on earth the principles of the Treaty can inform us about climate change. Nothing, actually\u2014nothing! And National knows it. Why does National know it? Because in 2005 National pointed out that we could not have the principles of the Treaty in education legislation, or in resource management legislation, because what on earth was it informing decision makers about? It was nothing, because the principles had not been defined. We do not know what that means; its vague and woolly thinking is setting us up for endless litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo we now have a poorly constructed emissions trading scheme that has been hacked around in the select committee, with businesses trying to make it somehow palatable by having a pound of flesh taken off everyone equally. Then the scheme has been hacked around to get the support of five iwi, so that they benefit but no other iwi in the country does. On top of that, we have inserted the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ENo one in the National Government is prepared to stand up and say what those principles are, and to put them on the record so we know what this amendment is all about. I would quite like a member from the M\u0101ori Party to take a call to say what the principles are. I am looking at my friend the Hon Parekura Horomia, and I am asking him how many principles there are. Are there three, are there five, or are there 10? Let us say there are 10. We need to stand up and say: \u201CHere are the 10 principles of the Treaty, and here is what that means for climate change policy.\u201D That is what I would like to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhy could we not just have a clause that states: \u201Cto give effect to the Treaty\u201D? That was what was signed. Actually, I would vote for that, because the Treaty is about citizens being equal in New Zealand, it is about respecting every New Zealander\u2019s property rights, M\u0101ori included, and it is about having one Sovereign\u2014not a bunch of five iwi who can run the Government ragged because they can somehow determine five votes in this Parliament. That is what the Treaty is about. Why do we not put in \u201CLet us have regard to the Treaty\u201D, not some airy-fairy principles that can never be defined? The National Party knows that. Why? In 2005 it was National\u2019s campaign promise. But if we jump ahead 4 years, we see that not only is National not ridding us of the principles of the Treaty in all the legislation on the statute book but it is reinserting it into legislation on the emissions trading scheme. So I say that we have atrocious policy, we have an atrocious process, and we have a process that is empowering and enriching five iwi to the exclusion of other M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat else do we find? Not surprisingly, when we go to the Stuff web page we find that the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s ruling council is in revolt. We do not know even now whether the M\u0101ori Party will finally vote for this legislation, because members of its council are saying publicly that the M\u0101ori Party should not do so. I ask the Government why it does not take this legislation, with its amendments, and send it to a select committee for public scrutiny, and for parliamentary scrutiny, so that all M\u0101ori can see what it says\u2014not just the five iwi but all M\u0101ori\u2014and, more particularly, so that every New Zealander can look at it, and every member of Parliament can have the debate, so that we do not have a decision that was hatched between the M\u0101ori Party, the five iwi, and this Government 18 minutes before it was made public and the day before it was being passed into law. In God\u2019s name, how can that be good lawmaking process? It cannot be. It is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6887edb4b7b42d2b3144f8080579366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6887edb4b7b42d2b3144f8080579366\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00225b689566373d4ace8ce5700a2d5ad2a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b689566373d4ace8ce5700a2d5ad2a8\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I will respond to some of the issues that have been put before the Committee this afternoon. I happily sat and listened to some of the comments. The first thing I would like to do is thank Shane Jones for issuing a press release on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party this afternoon. Unfortunately, he got his facts wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add010bd2c3445c4941e94ee9757ff79\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want this Committee to know that I have not been releasing press releases. Hone Harawira has been doing that himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35ff14b446247babb63a69430f298dd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; that is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a90cd5804b4c28895361228c80d663\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think it is important not to show that there is any confusion about this process. It is morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3319ab1b2514e0dae98ba49184aa9dd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the comments at this hour of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602117ef4d8b43219097fbe0215d9e8d\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I confirm that the M\u0101ori Party will stay with its stand, and that there is no discussion on the part of the national council in respect of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill today. The second thing I will say is that I have found some of the comments made today a little bit sad, in the sense that Mr Hide all of a sudden has a view about the Treaty that has been raised by the M\u0101ori Party for the last 4 to 5 years on the issue of its principles. In fact, I spoke about them last night, so I will not go back and reiterate those comments. They concerned cases from the Court of Appeal and the Waitangi Tribunal, which are there for anyone to read. They are a good starting point in respect of how to move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe third thing I want to say is that the M\u0101ori leadership group has been hung out in the public forum as being a select few. I am not going to debate that; suffice it to say I was at Hopuhopu when a large number of the tribes came together to provide a working party to give a view in respect of the emissions trading scheme. I cannot remember whether Mr Jones was present, but they put forward a view, and they represent, for better or for worse, a large number of people. The fourth point I want to make is that getting lessons from the Labour Party about M\u0101ori Party members going back to speak to their leadership is, I think, a little bit rich. Members should bear in mind that, about 3 or 4 years ago, there was a particular bill before the House, and a large number of people made their views clear in terms of what they thought of it at that time. Did some people listen to that? No, they did not\u2014they did not, actually. So we have that to think about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a796cd2cb10746f683510f3a40958a80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a796cd2cb10746f683510f3a40958a80\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d9486b924fc2486a9514d90441ea84d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000232\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Rahui Katene to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000233\u0022\u003Eto add to new section 2B in new clause 5 the following subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000234\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tBefore recommending the making of an Order in Council under section 2A(8) or (9), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, persons (or their representatives) that appear to the Minister or the chief executive likely to have an interest in the order.\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000235\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000236\u0022\u003E5B\tNew section 3A inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000237\u0022\u003EThe following section is inserted after section 3:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000238\u0022\u003E\u201C3A\tTreaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi)\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000239\u0022\u003EIn order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000240\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\twith respect to section 2B (which relates to Orders in Council in relation to Part 5 of Schedule 3), before recommending the making of an Order in Council under section 2A(8) or (9), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the order:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000241\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\twith respect to section 76 (which relates to consultation on a pre-1990 forest land allocation plan), before making a recommendation under section 73, the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the pre-1990 forest land allocation plan:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000242\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\twith respect to section 77 (which relates to consultation on a fishing allocation plan), before making a recommendation under section 75, the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the fishing allocation plan:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000243\u0022\u003E\u201C(d)\twith respect to section 161 (which relates to the appointment and conduct of a review panel),\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000244\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tthe Minister must, when appointing members to a review panel under section 160(6), ensure that the review panel has at least 1 member who, in the Minister\u2019s opinion, has the appropriate knowledge, skill, and experience relating to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and tikanga M\u0101ori to conduct the review; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000245\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tthe review panel must consult with the representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the panel likely to have an interest in the review; and \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000246\u0022\u003E\u201C(iii)\tthe terms of reference for the review panel must incorporate reference to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000247\u0022\u003E\u201C(e)\twith respect to section 161G (which relates to regulation-making powers in relation to eligible agricultural activities), before recommending the making of a regulation under section 161G(1), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the regulation:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000248\u0022\u003E\u201C(f)\twith respect to section 162 (which relates to regulations adding further activity to Part 2 of Schedule 4), before recommending the making of a regulation under section 162(1), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the regulation:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000249\u0022\u003E\u201C(g)\twith respect to section 163 (which relates to regulations relating to methodologies and verifiers), before recommending the making of a regulation under section 163(1), the Minster must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the regulation:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000250\u0022\u003E\u201C(h)\twith respect to section 164 (which relates to regulations relating to unique emissions factors), before recommending the making of a regulation under section 164, the Minster must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the regulation:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000251\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\twith respect to section 224 (which relates to the gazetting of targets), before the Minister responsible for the administration of this Act may set, amend, or revoke a target, the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the target:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000252\u0022\u003E\u201C(j)\twith respect to section 225 (which relates to regulations relating to targets), before recommending the making of a regulation under section 225(1), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, representatives of iwi and M\u0101ori that appear to the Minister or chief executive likely to have an interest in the regulation.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000253\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000254\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000255\u0022\u003Eto insert before the definition of animal welfare export certificate the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000256\u0022\u003E\u201C1990 baseline means the level of New Zealand emissions in 1990\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000257\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of animal welfare export certificate the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000258\u0022\u003E\u201CCommittee means the Climate Change Advisory Committee established by section 245\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000259\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of Crown holding account the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000260\u0022\u003E\u201Cemissions for which New Zealand is responsible, in relation to a period, means net New Zealand emissions reduced by the quantity of Kyoto Units retired during that period\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000261\u0022\u003E\u201Cintermediate target means a target set for the level emissions for which New Zealand is responsible for a target period under section 225\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000262\u0022\u003E\u201CNew Zealand emissions means emissions of greenhouse gases from sources in New Zealand\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000263\u0022\u003E\u201CNew Zealand removals means removals of greenhouse gases from the atmosphere due to land use, land-use change or forestry activities in New Zealand\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000264\u0022\u003E\u201Cnet New Zealand emissions in respect of a period means the amount of New Zealand emissions in the period reduced by the amount of New Zealand removals in the period\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000265\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of solid biofuel the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000266\u0022\u003E\u201Ctarget for 2050 means the target set for the level emissions for which New Zealand is responsible in 2050 in section 224\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000267\u0022\u003E\u201Ctarget period means each succeeding period of five years beginning with the period 2013-2017\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bc0df7930f04a288ecae8c58ba2c6c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000268\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000269\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 82(1) the formula \u201C\u201D and substitute the following formula:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000270\u0022\u003E; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000271\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of \u201COSY\u201D in new section 82(1) the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000272\u0022\u003EEB\tis the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the baseline year of 2005\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000273\u0022\u003EESY is the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the year immediately proceeding the specified year, as determined in accordance with regulations made under this Act.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e32ee9736f464024b0fea301b4bf9730\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000274\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000275\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 82(1) the definition of \u201CLA\u201D and substitute the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000276\u0022\u003ELA\tis the level of assistance for the activity for the specified year, being,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000277\u0022\u003E(a)\tfor a moderately emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000278\u0022\u003E(i)\t0.6 in 2010, 2011, and 2012; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000279\u0022\u003E(ii)\tin each year after 2012 and before 2030, the level of assistance from the previous year less 0.033 (the phase-out rate for a moderately emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity) (expressed to 2 decimal places):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000280\u0022\u003E(b)\tfor a highly emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000281\u0022\u003E(i)\t0.9 in 2010, 2011, and 2012; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000282\u0022\u003E(ii)\tin each year after 2012 and before 2030, the level of assistance from the previous year less 0.05 (the phase-out rate for a highly emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity) (expressed to 2 decimal places).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221ce09b8c1ba04769acb0f882be8f6234\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000283\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000284\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 84(1) the formula \u201C\u201D and substitute the following formula:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000285\u0022\u003E; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000286\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of \u201COSY\u201D in new section 84(1) the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000287\u0022\u003EEB\tis the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the baseline year of 2005\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000288\u0022\u003EESY is the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the year immediately proceeding the following year, as determined in accordance with regulations made under this Act.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022becea7081d8b4b36a5848130aa5b50e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000289\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000290\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 85A(2) the definition of \u201CLA\u201D and substitute the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000291\u0022\u003ELA\tis the level of assistance for the activity for the specified year, being,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000292\u0022\u003E(a)\tfor a moderately emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000293\u0022\u003E(i)\t0.6 in 2010, 2011, and 2012; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000294\u0022\u003E(ii)\tin each year after 2012 and before 2030, the level of assistance from the previous year less 0.033 (the phase-out rate for a moderately emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity) (expressed to 2 decimal places):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000295\u0022\u003E(b)\tfor a highly emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000296\u0022\u003E(i)\t0.9 in 2010, 2011, and 2012; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000297\u0022\u003E(ii)\tin each year after 2012 and before 2030, the level of assistance from the previous year less 0.05 (the phase-out rate for a highly emissions-intensive eligible industrial activity) (expressed to 2 decimal places).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bca962caa984dbe9741172474e82fb7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000298\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000299\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 85A(2) the formula \u201C\u201D and substitute the following formula:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000300\u0022\u003E; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000301\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of \u201COSY\u201D in new section 85A(2) the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000302\u0022\u003EEB\tis the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the baseline year of 2005\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000303\u0022\u003EESY is the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the year immediately proceeding the following year, as determined in accordance with regulations made under this Act.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b4683689f294a0585d7b9b1c0725928\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000304\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000305\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 86(2) the formula \u201C\u201D and substitute the following formula:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000306\u0022\u003E; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000307\u0022\u003Eto insert after the definition of \u201COSY\u201D in new section 86(2) the following definitions:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000308\u0022\u003EEB\tis the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the baseline year of 2005\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000309\u0022\u003EESY is the total emissions produced by eligible industrial activities in the year immediately proceeding the following year, as determined in accordance with regulations made under this Act.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245543a04cf3d482689f63c3148013728\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000310\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000311\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 86(2) the definition of \u201CLA\u201D and substitute the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000312\u0022\u003ELA\tis the level of assistance for the activity for the specified year, being,\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000313\u0022\u003E(a)\t0.9 in 2013; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000314\u0022\u003E(b)\tin each year after 2013 and before 2030, the level of assistance from the previous year less 0.053 (the phase-out rate for an eligible agricultural activity) (expressed to 2 decimal places).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225af74cab5ac345ecba1cc9bd6223d76a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000315\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000316\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 160(3)(a)(ii) \u201C5\u201D and substitute \u201C3\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000317\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 160(4).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222305252cf55f4451a8d059881bf497a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000318\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Kennedy Graham to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to clauses 43 to 49 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000319\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 188(1)(c)(i) in new clause 46 and substitute the following subparagraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000320\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tthe post-1989 forest land in respect of which the application is submitted contains no areas with significant numbers of tree species that are identified as a pest or unwanted organism under the Biosecurity Act 1993.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002223429babd4fd44eb979cacbc9caafc9f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000321\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000322\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 222A.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5de4789dfe44fcb856d904ef8e2fb92\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000323\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000324\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 222B.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c57a4c87db674f2aa5ac975c693be9f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000325\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000326\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222C(2)(a)(ii) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D; \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000327\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222C(2)(a)(iii)(B) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000328\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222C(2)(b)(ii) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022063f8f3efe704a88b690b316f35b6633\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000329\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000330\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222D(1) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000331\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222D(1)(a) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000332\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222D(2) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000333\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222D(3) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000334\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222D(3)(a) \u201C$25\u201D and substitute \u201C$100\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab87226ab6f347408c3245a3dbc92d61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000335\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000336\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 222F(b) \u201C4\u201D and substitute \u201C2\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000337\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 222F(d).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223b8724057df24e0ba5943937b78917b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000338\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000339\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000340\u0022\u003E\u201C222GA Transitional provisions regarding prohibition on banking of New Zealand Units\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000341\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tDespite anything in this Act, no New Zealand Unit issued in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012 may be surrendered after 31 December 2012.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000342\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tDespite anything in this Act, the Registrar must not convert any new Zealand unit issued in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012 into a designated assigned amount unit for the purposes of transferring that assigned amount unit to an account in an overseas registry.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000343\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tThe Registrar must not transfer to an account in an overseas registry under section 18C any New Zealand unit issued in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000344\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tThis section does not apply to New Zealand units\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000345\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\treceived in respect of removals for an activity in Part 1 of Schedule 4; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000346\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\ttransferred following a determination of the Minister under sections 78 or 79 in accordance with an allocation plan providing for the matters in section 73.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285613d90f128404bbbb4d736676c7d83\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000347\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon David Parker to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000348\u0022\u003Eto omit new sections 222C and 222D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223dd90e7544cf40fea05f1bebe9af9748\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000349\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon David Parker to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000350\u0022\u003Eto add to new section 222C the following subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000351\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tThat before the 2 for 1 emissions discount for electricity emissions is allowed, the emitter must prove to the satisfaction of the Commerce Commission that but for the 2 for 1 discount, electricity prices would have been higher.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f16661c4ddcf43dda2de1d4175452146\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000352\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229cb5b3b9a4d347428742b3d887cf72c2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000353\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 90 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to insert new clause 10A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6ccf1a84e004d3e8940a50e2fdcc37d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000354\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert new clauses 11A to 11D be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282c69b414ba8423185ea268b007bf403\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf2aa1d9af74392bad993c11e45c044\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We have an amendment to new section 70 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 91. This is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe now move to Charles Chauvel\u2019s amendment to new section 70 as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94. This is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe move to Rahui Katene\u2019s typescript amendment to new section 77(1). The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243312496d67a427bb62b7508a91110b9\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could we have clarification? Is that the Treaty of Waitangi clause? There is one of these provisions that we wish to vote in favour of but others that we oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2567047973431ba014034dd7beb0b6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I think you need to talk to your whips about which ones they are. The whips have them. We are now voting on Rahui Katene\u2019s typescript amendment to section 77(1). I will hold the vote so that the member can look specifically at what the issue is. This is section 77(1). We are dealing with clause 22, new section 77(1), and the amendment is on page 3. Are we all happy with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rahui Katene to clause 22 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Eto omit new section 77(1) and substitute the following subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tBefore making a recommendation under section 75(1), the Minister must\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tprepare a draft fishing allocation plan; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tconsult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, persons (or their representatives) that appear to the Minister or the chief executive likely to have an interest in the fishing allocation plan.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221fe0cf3a4547478e9d47f4ec8ec91908\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022119fa083590e4ce3a4de13f1714f6d04\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 97 in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert a new section 86A in clause 22 is out of order as the Clerk has ruled it is outside the scope of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 89 in the name of Russel Norman to clause 23 is ruled out of order as it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 97 in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert new clause 23A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260e7513808e74cc1a68e018b1d730208\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000368\u0022\u003EResult corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 53, Noes 69.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000369\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to clause 38 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000370\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 160(5)(g) \u201Cincluding (but not limited to) Australia\u2019s carbon pollution reduction scheme\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002286a6c7223e87467e9e6fc6c9941617fa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226e573ef078174067acca7b4a12ebb48c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e573ef078174067acca7b4a12ebb48c\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could I just check with you, for the vote cast before the vote we have just dealt with, what the voting tally of the M\u0101ori Party was, as there is some understanding that five votes were cast but I understood that they were casting only four votes today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9d66f2a6e744d5bb4a4b2a2e6a1378\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: It is recorded that the M\u0101ori Party cast five votes on Mr Chauvel\u2019s amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 97. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab049535b17b4ceb96a78f01105b089a\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The whip for the M\u0101ori Party might want to correct that figure, because the trouble is it might not be correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022199c0240c7464544a148a9da03059168\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199c0240c7464544a148a9da03059168\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Whip\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Darren Hughes. The M\u0101ori Party vote should have been recorded as four against. That number has been consistent throughout the morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbb94a3ed5f4486a2017839604045e9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member seeking leave to change the vote from five to four?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ccdc8c64e64835b03c511b0b88da4e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to have our vote changed accordingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7e1747f08541c6ab17ead7306fd00b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none. The vote is now amended and the Ayes recorded as 53 and the Noes as 68. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rahui Katene to clause 38 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto insert in new section 161(5) the following paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(ab)\tmust consult persons (or their representatives) that appear to the panel likely to have an interest in the review; and\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7bbf96c5d214453b49b13c95e8c5f84\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 92 in the name of Dr Kennedy Graham to new section 160 in clause 38 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to new sections 160 and 161 in clause 38 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe amendments in the name of Charles Chauvel to amend subsection (2), omit subsections (6) to (8), amend subsection (9), and add new subsection (10) in new section 161A in clause 38 are ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert new clause 41A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cef6a30e69f44a5ead765379b0a0a9bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000386\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert new clause 41B be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d2acfdfcbf74748a57c279c20f34ba8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588f25112b7d4d57bd14af8a190ffd99\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: On clause 44, Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 102 are out of order as they are inconsistent with a previous decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to clause 57 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto omit from new section 217(1)(d) \u201C1 January 2015 to 31 December 2015\u201D and substitute \u201C1 January 2013 to 31 December 2013\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002288969c7a58a74c50a896e034500fb396\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241731a06c6324c1bb356c5c3865fff32\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Charles Chauvel has amendments to clause 61 set out Supplementary Order Paper 95. These are out of order as they are inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Charles Chauvel to insert new clause 61A be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E61A\tComplementary Measures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe following new section is inserted after section 223:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C223C\tComplementary Measures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tThis section establishes a fund for the purpose of reducing greenhouse gas emissions through the promotion of complementary measures additional to the Emissions Trading Scheme (the Complementary Measures Fund).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tThe annual appropriation for the Fund shall be at least:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\t20,000,000 New Zealand Dollars per year; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\t10 percent of all revenues accruing from the Emissions Trading Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Ewhichever is the greater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tThe Complementary Measures Fund may be used for purposes that included (but are not limited to) the delivery, marketing and promotion of, and provision of grants or loans relating to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tincentives for households to improve energy efficiency; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tincentives for businesses developing renewable energy projects; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\tincentives to replace energy inefficient home appliances with energy efficient ones; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(d)\tincentives to purchase fuel efficient, low emission vehicles; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(e)\tinvestment funding to help quickly commercialise new lower-emission technology invented in New Zealand; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(f)\tassistance to sell New Zealand emissions reduction technology to other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tThe Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tmust, as soon as practicable after this section comes into force, determine the criteria for the use of the Complementary Measures Fund; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tmay re-determine the criteria at any time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tBefore determining or re-determining the criteria for the use of the Complementary Measures Fund, the Minister must seek and consider the advice of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(6)\tWhen advising the Minister on the criteria for the use of the Complementary Measures Fund, the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority must have regard to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tthe degree to which any measure will reduce New Zealand\u2019s long-term emissions pathway, including by encouraging broad technological change; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tthe cost-effectiveness of expenditure from the Complementary Measures Fund in relation to the purpose of the Complementary Measures Fund; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\tany other matters that the Authority considers relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(7)\tThe Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority must manage and administer the Complementary Measures Fund in accordance with the criteria determined by the Minister.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f48bdc978a848ca85ca06b6ef6fb21f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000417\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to omit clauses 62 and 63 and substitute new clause 62 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221cae932d324740a9ae1b1dc3dfed75ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000418\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rahui Katene to insert new clause 62A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000419\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000420\u0022\u003E62A\tGazetting of targets\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000421\u0022\u003ESection 224 is amended by inserting the following subsection after subsection (2):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000422\u0022\u003E\u201C(2A)\tBefore the Minister sets, amends, or revokes a target, the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, persons (or their representatives) that appear to the Minister or the chief executive likely to have an interest in the target.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c07ce8e41d74beab043ad395da8512b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000423\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Rahui Katene to clause 63 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000424\u0022\u003Eto insert in new section 225 the following subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000425\u0022\u003E\u201C(1A)\tBefore recommending the making of an Order in Council under subsection (1), the Minister must consult, or be satisfied that the chief executive has consulted, persons (or their representatives) that appear to the Minister or the chief executive likely to have an interest in the order.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000426\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000427\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon David Parker to clause 63 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000428\u0022\u003Eto add the following section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000429\u0022\u003E\u201C226\tCompensation to pre-1990 Forest Owners\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000430\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tNo additional compensation will be accorded to any pre-1990 forest landowner on the basis that the land was transferred to the owner under a Treaty settlement unless it is proven that the Crown made misrepresentations or withheld material information about emissions pricing at the time of settlement.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022427b8e0411764648b3c296969f1f7c27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000431\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon David Parker to clause 63 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000432\u0022\u003Eto add the following section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000433\u0022\u003E\u201C226\tNitrous Oxide\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000434\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tNotwithstanding any other provision in this legislation, nitrous oxide emissions from agriculture will be included in the scheme from 1 January 2013 with free allocation based on 90% of 2005 emissions.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000435\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tAll revenue collected under subsection (1) between 1 January 2013 and December 2014 shall be used to subsidise the use of nitrification inhibitors.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2af0da8e0e24a79872d1c7e3effd1be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022564bf24bdd5f42539ad63066f96998cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b740ba5e56d04ed8a2508a62984eeb3b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89c0175d8bf4c63a8f4987f552bef6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89c0175d8bf4c63a8f4987f552bef6e\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that there is going to be a wide-ranging debate on the title and commencement of the legislation, and that it is unlikely that calls will be taken on this part. I just wanted to advise the Committee of that understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00ea00957b443f8a483e58af80723ab\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: If there is no further debate on Part 2 we will move to the amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229539b20b3f3e43a8886542f94c81cca2\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Do we vote on Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227302865d2589416485836827e1e9ce91\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I am moving to the amendments. That is why I said to the Committee that we are now moving to the amendments, which means we will have a vote. Unusual for the House, I know, but brace yourselves, members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of Hon Dr Nick Smith to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b532aead941844e6a6e2fffefc455fe7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000442\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 94 in the name of Charles Chauvel to add new clause 67 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b0cb0c4973c4e40bcce65c22ca8dbee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa52039a457349fbab1187f1fff71353\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e19adc6e2026432dbcf9a7d1ee76465f\u0022\u003ENew schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000444\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 98 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to add a new schedule be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d699ce3e7354023b50c51ae3b7c7ff5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew schedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244ce0048300a41e2985f47be631798db\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa7c37272ef645bf8e279c89d5c057d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa7c37272ef645bf8e279c89d5c057d4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me no pleasure to rise after we have just voted through those terrible amendments to the emissions trading scheme. Effectively, they have rendered largely ineffective New Zealand\u2019s main response to our growing emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b0be6146ee4d3d8721c483ee64bc75\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: A sad day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5544b2cc534591b1e8d76fa0ab4f6b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a terribly sad day. The effect of that decision on future generations is that our children and their children will have visited upon them many billions of dollars, and emissions will grow more than they would otherwise have done. I think it is timely to record the fact that if a country like New Zealand, with our comparative wealth\u2014we are one of the richest countries in the world on a world scale; we are not as rich as Australia, but we are still very wealthy\u2014with our good environmental ethic, which is not held by the National Party or the M\u0101ori Party but generally held by most New Zealanders, who think we should do our bit for the environment; with the benefit of the rule of law; and with our wonderful scientists and our understanding of these things, cannot do this right, what hope is there that the world will do it right in time? What hope is there that the world will get on top of these problems in time for them not to be catastrophic? I am not a man of hyperbole\u2014I do not use the word \u201Ccatastrophic\u201D often in this Chamber\u2014but scientists warn us that if the world does not reduce its emissions very soon, then the climate change effects will see millions of people displaced by rising sea levels, changing patterns of food production caused by drought, and, conversely, terrible storm events, meaning that millions of people will not have enough food to eat, and that thousands of species that currently exist on our planet will be lost. I think that is very sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will move on to why I disagree with something that the ACT Party contributed at the end of the last part of the debate on the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. An ACT member said that we had to protect property rights. That member was saying what Business New Zealand said in its submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which was that there is a property right to pollute. I might not agree with much that the Minister in the chair, Dr Nick Smith, has done on this amendment bill, but I hope that he agrees that there is no property right to pollute. We have to stand down that notion in this country. There is no property right to pollute\u2014whether it be the right to pollute a river; whether it be the right to pollute with ozone gases, destroying the ozone layer; or whether it be the right to put lead in petrol because it was cheaper for oil companies. There was no property right to do that. There is no property right to pollute in any area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt is not a private property right to pollute. That is where the business lobby has made a fundamental error in its logic. I correct myself: not all of the business lobby is wrong, but the Business New Zealand business lobby is fundamentally wrong. I think it is such a lazy error; it is so patently wrong. There is no property right to pollute. We did not have to compensate oil companies when we took lead out of petrol. We did not have to compensate refrigeration companies when we took out ozone-damaging substances from their refrigerants. We do not have to compensate farmers when they are told not to pollute rivers. We did not have to compensate councils when we stopped them pouring raw sewage into harbours. We did not have to compensate factories when they stopped polluting rivers with the freezing works blood and guts that they used to just dump in them. We do not have to compensate businesses to do what this country and the world needs to be done when it comes to reducing carbon emissions into the atmosphere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis principle needs to be reiterated. I ask the Minister in the chair to state clearly that he disagrees with Business New Zealand, and that he disagrees with the ACT Party\u2019s notion that there is a property right to pollute. That is what lies behind the right-wing agenda of those who say that we should protect property rights in this bill. That is what they mean. They say it should protect their property right to pollute. I disagree with that in principle, but even if Dr Smith disagrees with it in principle, he is doing it in practice with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESome of the amendments that I have put up change the name of this bill to more properly reflect what it is. It could be the \u201CGreenhouse Gas Emissions (Property Rights Creation) Bill\u201D. It creates that property right. It entrenches those rights to create, and persist in creating, carbon pollution well past 2050. In fact, the emission abatement curve is so slow that it does not abate fully for 80 years. We will all be dead and gone. Actually, most of our children will be dead and gone by the time the free emissions rights completely abate under this bill. It effectively creates such a long period of tradability of that pollution right that one could not but say that in practice it creates a property right to pollute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn doing so, we know that it increases Government debt. It increases Government debt because the free emissions rights that are given to major emitters long after they had a fair adjustment period are so enormous that Government gives away an extra $50 billion worth of emissions right. We can argue with the Minister as to whether it is proper to include the interest on that increased Government debt, as Treasury did, to get the figure of a $110 billion increase in Government debt, but there is no doubt that it substantially increases Government debt. So an alternative name is the \u201CClimate Change Response (Increased Government Debt) Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAt question time yesterday the Minister wriggled and wriggled and tried not to answer the question about Brian Fallow\u2019s statement in the New Zealand Herald that the effect of this bill is to delay the date when New Zealand\u2019s emissions peak, and to have a higher peak before they go down. We now know, on the record, that even the Minister agrees that the effect of this bill is to increase New Zealand\u2019s emissions. So the \u201CClimate Change Response (Increased Emissions) Amendment Bill\u201D might be a more proper name for it. We could give various other names to the bill. The \u201CPermanent Pollution Payments Entrenchment Bill\u201D would be a fair name for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMembers can choose between those names, but the sad effect of this bill is to severely undermine the environmental effectiveness of the scheme. It causes irresponsible fiscal cost to be put on the taxpayer and on future generations, who will have to repay that cost. It does nothing to improve New Zealand\u2019s contribution to fixing this problem. Editorials up and down the country, commentators, Treasury, the Ministry of Economic Development, and the specialist adviser to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Dr Suzi Kerr, all say the same thing. But according to the Government they are all wrong. Dr Smith is wrong. This bill is fatally flawed and it should not have the name that it masquerades under currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00221170ca58cb37435fa115bf8576b33103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221170ca58cb37435fa115bf8576b33103\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The first thing I point out to Labour and Green members is that Labour was entrusted with this issue for 9 years, and in every one of those years emissions went up. They did not just go up; they went up by ever-increasing amounts. I will give members some of those areas. The first is with regard to the electricity sector. During the term of the previous Labour Government, emissions from the electricity sector increased threefold. We all accept that forests are an important part of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, but the last 9 years were the worst since World War II in terms of deforestation. That is the first point I wish to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second point I make is on whether I accept that business has a right to pollute. No, I do not. What is behind the changes to make the emissions trading scheme affordable and workable is a really difficult problem. We want to make progress on climate change in New Zealand\u2014we do\u2014but, equally, we do not want to implement policy in New Zealand that exports industries, jobs, and emissions offshore. All the analysis says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a12fd619ab374ee2a65bf75118bb8da1\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Show us the evidence!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c766c65ecc3048a49d19d7fdf2b6047f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I will show members the evidence. The report that was commissioned by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research made plain that the approach of a production-based method was the best way in which to respond to climate change without simply increasing emissions offshore. I tell members opposite that they might feel good if the cement, steel, and aluminium industries in New Zealand closed down and those goods were manufactured in China or some other part of Asia, but it makes no practical difference to the environment, and it costs an awful lot of New Zealanders jobs. That is the dichotomy that we have been working through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMr Parker again used the figure of $110 billion. It is nonsense. I challenge David Cunliffe, Labour\u2019s spokesperson on finance, on this basis. I tell members what sort of outcome there would be if we took the approach of adding every single year\u2019s cost\u2014and remember it is a loss of revenue, not a cost\u2014and then adding the compound interest on the basis that we would have invested that lost revenue. Labour\u2019s policy is to reinstate a research and development tax credit. That would result in a loss of income of $260 million per year. Most of us in the Chamber would say that that policy costs $260 million. But if the members applied the approach that they are taking to their criticisms of this bill, it would be correct to say that that research and development policy costs $43 billion\u2014if we add it up each year and apply exactly the same approach. I challenge Phil Goff and David Cunliffe. If they are not going to be in the business of misleading New Zealanders on an issue as important as climate change, and they want to adopt that approach to the assessment of numbers, then they should be consistent. They should talk about their research and development policy costing $43 billion, installing a huge debt of $43 billion on our children, and increasing Government debt into the future by $43 billion. That is for a policy that in any one year would cost $260 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe further point I make is on the controversy over the phase-out rate. We campaigned on a policy and we said that we would phase out industry support in line with our major trading partners. Australia has chosen a rate of 1.3 percent; we have set that rate for a period of 5 years through till 2018. A large amount of the argument is about what occurs beyond 2018. This bill will reduce emissions over its first 10 years, according to the advice I have received, very little\u2014about 10 million tonnes is the reduction in emissions that it will cause over that first 10 years of the scheme. I say to the members opposite that making a big deal about what that phase-out rate will be into the future is pretty slippery ground to stand on. Every member of this House knows that there will be negotiations in Copenhagen, that legislation is going through the United States Senate, that legislation is going through Australia, and, most important, that this bill will have a review in 2011, which is only 2 years away, and another review in 2016. Even if we take the shorter phase-in and start the phase-out period a little earlier, it is not until 2021 that there is any key difference in the approach. We all know that things will be reviewed and debated further down the track, so for this Committee to be ripping its guts out and for us to have all of these quite personal and derogatory statements around a debate that is as far out as that undermines a pretty broad consensus about the way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc8eed0e2c7448aa0b4f296620dd361\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why did you put it in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25081b33bf944afb2ffcfbba84df8f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chauvel asks why we would put the 1.3 percent rate in. We have said we will put 1.3 percent into the law. We will review it in 2011; we will review it again in 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224939597e8e50433eaa9c327ef4ac0570\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: How are businesses supposed to plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91148cbc97243849334d59b9113c8bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member Charles Chauvel that this is a key difference. Let us say where it is at. We are saying to business that the phase-out rate will be in line with our major trading partners. I have to say that I have given notice in many business speeches that if our major trading partners give a stronger phase-out than other countries, it is our intention to increase the phase-out rate. Equally, I have to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c7433363944f939baa920fb4c79eaf\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3332e9509c4ea986b3cc18e25ab021\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Charles says this policy is nonsense. I ask him to ring Senator Penny Wong, the Australian Minister in charge of their climate change legislation. Australia has exactly the same provision in its law\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7fb05569b24a0694db8535bd340c28\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t have a law!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f345c73b8d4046d7a8382e2051c504b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, neither do we have a law yet. We will be a few days ahead of them. In my view, Mr Chauvel needs to get on the phone and make all the derogatory comments he has made of me to her. He will not, and that shows the duplicity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6534c9bd4bf4a8d85da487b77db7293\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Why? You\u2019re the Minister in our country!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022431c3bbe7d30476188456d5ff040e3d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Moana Mackey and Charles Chauvel that they may not have noticed, but climate change is a global issue, so what other countries are doing is relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI have really enjoyed the Committee stage of this bill because we have been able to pop, one after another, the fragile balloons that Labour has put up as excuses for opposing this bill. I think those Labour members know in their heart of hearts that we are doing the right thing. I think they secretly admire the M\u0101ori Party because it was able to achieve what Labour could not\u2014that is, a sensible agreement on the way forward on climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I make is that all the behaviour I see from Labour members is like that of a spurned bride. They get awfully bitter and twisted, and that is because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ec2cf9463a4ca4845dbbf7fe72623d\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Have you looked in a mirror lately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229751e7dcb7d44968926d9d8436eef08\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that we wanted to get an agreement with Labour. That was my first preference. Time got tight and\u2014unlike my discussions with the Labour Party, which leaked all over the place\u2014our discussions with the M\u0101ori Party were totally confidential. The key difference was that Labour assumed there was only one deal, and that it was with Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67f1d53aa124653a2bf5804a640a83f\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: No, we didn\u2019t!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e64866d18ea45548633a6ebece7d6ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Labour did. After we did the deal with the M\u0101ori Party, we said that we had introduced the bill only to the select committee. We wanted to build as broad a consensus as possible for this legislation, and Labour walked out. This issue deserves better than that, and I again say to Mr Cunliffe and Labour members that my door is open any day, any week, and any month to do what we should always have done\u2014that is, build a broader consensus of policy around this important issue for New Zealand and for the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226adff61e2f5b4b448d961ebc74bd3744\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226adff61e2f5b4b448d961ebc74bd3744\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to correct for the record some of the gross\u2014I am trying to find a parliamentary word\u2014untruths that have been contained in the comments of the Minister for Climate Change Issues, the Hon Dr Nick Smith, from the floor. I begin with the last one he made: that Labour somehow walked out of good-faith negotiations with the Government. Let me remind the public of what actually happened. The negotiations were proceeding well. We were down to three sticking points, and the major one was around the use or not of a global emissions cap. We had indicated that we would accept a variant of intensity-based emission charges, and that was a major concession for the Labour Opposition. The nature of our offer is set out on the public record in the Finance and Expenditure Committee report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut something happened, and it was not the deal with the M\u0101ori Party; it was the Labour Party conference in Rotorua. That is relevant because a source close to the National Party has told us that the polling indicated that Labour support grew by 5 percent and our leader\u2019s popularity grew by the same amount in that week. The pollsters said to John Key: \u201CThou shalt not allow a deal with the Labour Party on climate, lest they be seen as statesmen.\u201D So the word went out to the Climate Change Iwi Leadership Group and the financial backers, few in number though they be, of the M\u0101ori Party. And Hone Harawira, who had opposed the previous bill because it did not go far enough, was reined in. It is ironic\u2014it is silly\u2014for the Minister to raise that in the Chamber because today that has come full circle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis morning we heard from the media that the M\u0101ori Party council would be called together later today in an emergency meeting to discuss the issues and to raise their concerns about the costs on ordinary M\u0101ori. M\u0101ori Party sources calculate that M\u0101ori would have to pay $500 million to $1 billion a year through cutting services, increased taxes, or the sale of assets. On the other hand, under the deal with the Government five iwi would get $2 billion, but some in the M\u0101ori Party insist it does not offset the money all M\u0101ori will have to repay over 40 years, which they calculate at between $21 billion and $42 billion. We see full circle today the M\u0101ori Party being sacrificed on the altar of Business New Zealand and Fonterra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat brings me to Fonterra, because word has reached me that Fonterra is none too happy because its deal implied an allocation being made in Australia for agriculture. Although the scheme in Australia is uncertain, I understand that agriculture is being left out, and there is no free allocation to the competitors of Fonterra across the Tasman. So there has been some late-night work in the Beehive to determine whether late amendments could be submitted or whether the Minister will use his discretionary powers under this bill to cut a subsequent deal for some of our largest industries over and above the shabby, tawdry deal that has been brought to this House already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat brings me back to process. I do not need to be lectured by Nick Smith on financial rectitude, thank you very much, when that Minister has refused the public a right by withholding under the Official Information Act critical pieces of the analysis that go to the financial estimates around this bill, and when the Minister has officials who have, through no fault of their own, had to admit to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that they had not done sensitivity testing around the financial costs of this bill. They could not produce for the committee a range of scenarios and tell the committee the assumptions on which they were based. Treasury\u2019s own regulatory impact assessment unit therefore had to conclude that the analytic base of this bill was insufficient for a matter of this importance. So we do not need to be lectured by National members on fiscal prudence. From now until the next election National members will never be able to look New Zealanders in the eye and say that they are the custodians of fiscal responsibility, because today they have sold our children, and their children, down the creek. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI do not need National members trotting out the old refrain of \u201CYou had 9 years; what did you do about it?\u201D. They were 9 years of the longest post-war economic expansion in New Zealand\u2019s history, years when we saw an enormous boom in the dairy sector, and forestry conversions came into that. But, of course, we recognised that the matter of putting an overall global cap on emissions was essential. It was because of the difficulty we experienced\u2014and I give due credit to the former Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues, David Parker, who spoke so eloquently just a few moments ago\u2014that we understand the difficulties of this problem. We have been there before. That is precisely why we know that a global cap is essential. It is precisely why we are very hesitant to embrace any form of intensity-based \u201Ccontrol\u201D. It is precisely why we know that industry will take everything that the Minister for Climate Change Issues has so generously given it in this deal, and then tomorrow he will wake up and it will want more\u2014it will want more and more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat is also why I want to acknowledge a PhD thesis by Dr Rick Boven, who is now the director of the New Zealand Institute. He is a very eminent economist. He modelled the political economy of climate change against the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change\u2019s projections of global warming. He looked at the political economy of when democracies are likely to adjust. The problem is that 50 years after we limit emissions, the planet stops warming as a result of the emissions we let go a generation before. There is a real risk that if the planet warms by more than 2 or 3 degrees Celsius, we could set up self-reinforcing processes that mean that it is virtually impossible to stop global warming. The outcome of the econometric modelling by Dr Boven showed, essentially, that the planet is going to fry, and that fundamental disruption to human civilisation is likely, because of the 50-year lag time, combined with the reluctance of democratic governments to take the steps required to rein in industry. That means that our children face horrific consequences. They will look back on us, as David Parker so eloquently said, and they will ask us why we looked over the brink. Did we not know? Were we not informed? Did we not understand the problem of the lags? Were we not prepared to have the courage to look at the future and say \u201CNow we must start to turn it round.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI am sad today for our children, because I know that they will face tougher decisions than those we have not faced up to in this Chamber today. It will not be just about climate, because the Government is making a habit of passing our hard problems on to our children. They will have the burden of superannuation to catch up on, because the Government has cancelled pre-funding so there will be fewer than half the taxpayers per retiree paying to catch up. [Interruption] I hear a member opposite ask why that is relevant to the bill. I will tell the member why. The Minister for Climate Change Issues has had the gall to say that the fiscal liabilities, the $50 billion to $110 billion in this bill, are not real money. Well, of course they are real money. They are an offset that could have been used in part to cover the costs of superannuation, or the costs of adaptation to catastrophic climate change, or the costs of educating our children how to live in a future that we would not dare live in, or the costs of sending them to some other planet because this one is ruined. So please do not tell us that somehow the $100 billion does not matter because we are not sending all of it to the United Nations. Of course we are not sending all of it to the United Nations. But it is a real liability, and it is a real offset that must be met against expenditure, or increases in taxes, or debt. It is not appropriate to ascribe to one piece of expenditure one item of revenue and square it off. It all goes in the same pot, and the write-offs go to the country\u2019s largest polluters, the multinationals that own part of our energy sector, as well as the Crown\u2014and the Crown ought to be ashamed. Those debits will come back to haunt our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI do not want to export jobs, but the Minister for Climate Change Issues has made no evidence available to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that that prospect is substantial; nor has any logic been demonstrated as to why, if it was a real issue, the bill has been designed as it is. Let me give several examples. If we wanted to stop exporting jobs, why would we not impose the carbon liabilities on the actual fishermen burning the fuel, or the actual farmers who could change their crops or their herds to a lower-emitting standard? Why would we not have a demonstrable logic related to carbon intensity between sectors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00223eedffdd858c414a957ac6ce07fc549f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eedffdd858c414a957ac6ce07fc549f\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E In this debate today\u2014and I know it is the title debate\u2014I am wondering whether we should call this bill the \u201CBrown Wash Bill\u201D. Although I think the M\u0101ori Party has been engaging in \u201Cgreenwash\u201D, I suspect and will accuse the National Government of engaging in a \u201Cbrown wash\u201D over the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. Like my colleagues, I have been very disappointed in the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support for this legislation, especially given that it is so contrary to the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s original view in the Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee. How it could shift its view so radically from one side to the other is very difficult to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI am also disappointed in the M\u0101ori Party, at the way it has allowed the National Government to skew the public debate against M\u0101ori, against wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B, by its use of this legislation and the deal it has done with National. The justification for supporting this bill is supposedly that M\u0101ori have obtained some benefit as a result of the negotiations. Let us have a look at the bundle of supposed gains that M\u0101ori have made through the deal done by the M\u0101ori Party. None of them are new, and none of them are innovative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe forestry deal, which has been such a major distraction, should have happened anyway. In fact, the Green Party was working with Ng\u0101i Tahu last year on the same issue, to try to get some support from the previous Labour Government about dealing with this Treaty settlement question. It is a Treaty settlement issue around forestry; it is not an emissions trading scheme issue. It should have been resolved in any event. At some point this Government, like any Government, would have been required to deal with the issue, whether it was because of the threat of legal action or for whatever reason, but it has nothing to do with this business. It is neither new nor innovative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe 6 months\u2019 reprieve that Enviroschools have for their funding cut is meaningless. It gives the 210,000 schoolchildren who are involved in the Enviroschools programme no security at all. The Minister of Education has confessed that the programme will be reviewed in 6 months\u2019 time, anyway. What is the point? Where is the gain for those 210,000 children if the programme gets 6 months\u2019 reprieve? How could the M\u0101ori Party give over those children\u2019s future and lumber them with a $24,000 debt for the rest of their lives, in exchange for 6 months of a school programme that should have continued, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EEnviroschools is the one programme in this country that has had major success in teaching children not only numeracy and literacy, but also environmental sustainability, and the economics of that environmental sustainability. That programme deserves support, anyway. The M\u0101ori Party should have been supporting Enviroschools and the continued funding for it, not giving it a 6 months\u2019 reprieve from the axe. Those children do not want to be lumbered with a $24,000 debt, in exchange for 6 months of the programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI turn to the little extra that has been provided for home insulation. We know that two-thirds of the people who are already accessing the home insulation fund\u2014the Green Party home insulation fund, I must say\u2014are community services card holders. We know that those low-income families are already getting access to the scheme. That $24 million is a good amount of money but in 4 years\u2019 time who knows what will happen. There is no guarantee, at the end of the day, because 4 years is a very long time in politics. The M\u0101ori Party has nothing extra for the people today who need access to the home insulation fund, because they are already accessing it. There is no added benefit to the M\u0101ori community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has promoted a Treaty clause in the legislation. The Greens will support a Treaty clause because we think it is good to have recognition of the Treaty in legislation. But let us be real about what this Treaty clause actually does. It is simply an arrangement between the Government and M\u0101ori business. If we look at it in detail it is a very complicated clause. It is very narrow in its approach, and essentially provides a means by which\u2014it should happen, anyway\u2014M\u0101ori leaders of iwi and M\u0101ori organisations, which are large business organisations, can talk to the Government about the things that they are doing. It is a consultation agreement, but that is all it is. It does nothing for hap\u016B. The Treaty is about respecting wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B, and the Treaty clause does nothing to do that. I have an objection to even calling it a Treaty clause, quite frankly. It is a business agreement between the National Government and some M\u0101ori businesses. And as for sending negotiators to the Copenhagen Climate Change Conference, I mean please! We knew months ago that National was taking them. Everybody knew that National was taking them. There is nothing new. They have been given nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230ea974bf4e54b5a93c1fa0076176663\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They are constantly being tricked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db1b3d5d8b5488baef78635f5222ee9\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether it is a trick or whether there is some other need for maybe the M\u0101ori Party to feel that it needs to make some gains. It has been shafted continually by this National Government over the M\u0101ori seats. I understand there was something of a gentleman\u2019s agreement by John Key that M\u0101ori seats would occur, but that was shafted pretty quickly. Nowhere has the M\u0101ori Party made any substantive gains into serious political issues that it has been trying to pursue. So maybe that is what is behind it. But none of the gains that it has supposedly made here can justify the wealth transfer from the poorest families, many of whom are our own wh\u0101nau, to the richest international corporates from around the globe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ENational has managed to cobble together a whole series of little bits and pieces\u2014nothing new, nothing innovative, nothing that we did not already know about\u2014to get the M\u0101ori Party on board for this legislation. I want to know what M\u0101ori get out of it. What do M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau get out of it? They get nothing but the blame, supported by the M\u0101ori Party. The forestry deal has been a distraction. National has played up the forestry deal in order to distract attention from the wealth transfer from the poorest to the richest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIn effect, National can say that it has given M\u0101ori lots, and that is what it is saying in the public realm; that it is able to deliver all of this benefit to the M\u0101ori community through the M\u0101ori Party, and that thereby justifies the environmental degradation and wealth transfer under this legislation. The public rightly understand and object to that massive public subsidy to corporates, and rightly object to the environmental degradation that this legislation will incentivise, and they need somebody to be angry at. National has delivered them the M\u0101ori Party, and the M\u0101ori Party has delivered M\u0101ori communities to the public, who are angry at the bill and the M\u0101ori community. That is what we are seeing outside this Chamber. The public are angry at this legislation. Who are they blaming? They are not blaming National\u2014National has managed to divert it\u2014but they are blaming the M\u0101ori Party and M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EMaori will bear the burden of the stink of the wealth transfer of public funds to these international corporations. M\u0101ori communities will bear the stink of the environmental degradation inherent in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a37d187c0424582a7bd3b97588e368b\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They were tricked again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb7923272384faeb07e8c9149dda780\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I ask whether it is a trick or is it just the M\u0101ori Party being prepared to put the interests of the few ahead of the interests of the many, even its own communities. I suspect that is more likely what the decision is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe legislation is a tragedy for M\u0101ori communities. It is a tragedy for M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau. Perhaps, if it was just about the business, if it was just about the wealth transfer, if it was just about supporting M\u0101ori business, it would not have such an impact. In fact, it has turned into a public debate about why M\u0101ori are getting heaps of stuff and why everybody else has to pay. That is creating in the minds of the community an anti-M\u0101ori sentiment that is promoted by the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support for this bill. That is what is happening outside this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThat is the risk the M\u0101ori Party has been prepared to take with its own communities and with its own people, backed by National, because National can avoid all of the distraction and all of the blame. National can just get on with its interest groups that have always been about business, and we all know that. National can justify what it is doing because it is supporting the M\u0101ori Party and it needs those votes. The M\u0101ori Party has allowed itself to be used in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db793600e9124dcc9c2996a5627840b3\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022308a754e21324aeb9807c1a72746c62a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a91a7276e3c4481b3bc962b7f6d67a8\u0022\u003EHealth Care\u2014Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb1e76b748346e1aa03108f3cd9c530\u0022\u003E1. Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he still stand by his policy to deliver better, sooner, and more convenient health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022005e9d17cb3648b3ae954dfd905f3a14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022005e9d17cb3648b3ae954dfd905f3a14\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Despite the fact that the Labour Government left the new Government with around $160 million of unfunded services to fill and quietly stripped $150 million out of Vote Health before the general election, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ce441cdcac4eb39572afecbb21d038\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt, but I am just across from the Minister of Health and I could not hear a word of that answer, because of the barracking. It is the very first question of the day. I think it is a courtesy to members that they should be able to hear the question and the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257bf599ab74445e583795478045c6faf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I concur with the honourable member. He makes a perfectly fair point of order. With the House being in urgency, of course, we go straight into question time, as was agreed by the Business Committee. The House would do well to settle down. In fairness, the Minister actually said yes, in answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dcb0685a2164657aed639efb6b3a49b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received in relation to more New Zealanders getting much-needed elective surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228afc61be0d7744eeb65f6c99f4c2ff9f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have received reports that from the year 2000 to 2007-08 the average increase in elective surgery discharges was 1,432, which did not even keep up with population growth. The new Government set the goal of nearly trebling this average increase to 4,000 a year\u2014a goal that was well and truly exceeded, with record discharges in the past year. Meeting the continuing growth of elective surgery is a real challenge. However, even with the effects of the swine flu, I can advise the member today that the number of patients getting much-needed elective surgery in New Zealand has reached yet another all-time high: our public health service has delivered elective surgery to an unprecedented 34,000 patients in the past quarter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa7e8e424d1a44d3b05e82d3e0072abf\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the people who will not figure in the district health boards\u2019 league tables, such as the 5,000 people in Timaru who have had their access to the emergency department cut, so they will not be on the league tables because they will not even get through the door of the hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a6562920954cf18d03e7dd4e77fb9a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: There has been no cutting of access to the emergency department at Timaru. I visited there recently, and the doors were still wide open. What I can tell the member is that emergency departments throughout New Zealand are working with their comrades and colleagues in the wards to improve service for New Zealanders, and really good progress is being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc11fecfd5c4f109c38af17fc696076\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister not include a list of front-line health services and front-line staff in his league tables; was it because we have already seen cuts in both front-line health services and front-line health workers, or is it because it shows that the tens of thousands of dollars he has spent on publicity is just wasted health money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a7ba5ea1104657b9119e93306a993b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot comment on any specific case that the member might have raised in that question, because she did not do so. But I can tell the House that the latest information from the Ministry of Health is that there are actually more front-line doctors and front-line nurses working in our public hospitals than at any other time under a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245350e3ed7a0401ab673cd6a1c64a595\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Would an extra $110 billion in health funding over the next 40 years help the Minister to deliver better, sooner, and more convenient health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b2f64efb0e4207a3456b06a5f5d059\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I can advise the member that I am currently in discussions with the Minister of Finance about the budget we need for the health sector next year, and that is not a figure I have yet promoted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9befe6ed8054acdb2eb805b313a5f32\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Which particular specialties have contributed to the record number of patients benefiting from elective surgery in this period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226499869008fa4aa4bc9be1d794c60f9d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Basically everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39b2b2e2d144f0693f638322ef21938\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Dodgy-ing the figures!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279fb842796bd4c64b4c4d23a11cb2ef1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is from the crowd that cut 30,000 patients off waiting lists, then stood up and said they had them under control. In the 3 months to the end of September, a record number of patients have received ear, nose, and throat surgery, general surgery, neurosurgery, ophthalmology, plastics and burns surgery, and vascular surgery. These results really are a tribute to the work of our doctors and nurses in district health boards in responding to the Government\u2019s very clear expectations of better services for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172e1566ea5e47ff8a0d2f43329f2190\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to his discussions with the Minister of Finance about funding for health in future years, has the Minister of Finance raised any concerns about the level of debt the Government is building up, and may build up over the next 40 years, and will that have a negative impact on the level of funding for health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022753b40e5036e4aceb6786b367092caa8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: In those discussions with the Minister of Finance, our concern really has been very much focused on the inheritance that we received from the previous Government, and on the fact that we inherited a health service on a track to financial crisis, with significant deficits. We are working very closely to try to fill those unfunded services that we inherited from the previous Government, and the $150 million that Labour quietly cut from the health budget only days before the general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270309c9411954a038116946201131a29\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d32829e19864e389f84206bd535fe96\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does she have confidence in the Department of Corrections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228f8c346b7c634b7192d48284657ca33c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f8c346b7c634b7192d48284657ca33c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E In spite of the years of neglect inflicted on the department by the previous administration, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625063481a454ac085415a070d8f1d91\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in all the advice provided by the Department of Corrections about the cost of privately run prisons in comparison with public prisons, even though it has been giving her advice since last December that shows that the cost of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison\u2014the only example New Zealand has to draw on\u2014is more expensive than the public equivalents, which is advice that is completely contradictory to her claim that private prisons are cheaper to run?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f3921c7863b41d69a9917355719fa9c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The department also provided advice that included the 70,000 hours of rehabilitative treatment that the Auckland Central Remand Prison had to give when it was privately run. The figures that the member is talking about were not actually included. The real figures\u2014the \u201Capples with apples\u201D comparison rather than the \u201Capples with oranges\u201D one\u2014show that private prisons are better value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022399206e0df91451fa42901860ac3e1b6\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the Department of Corrections advice of 18 December 2008, which states: \u201CThe costs of the ACRP were higher than those of publicly run prisons.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243dc159a12b14a63854924e10f4744e3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022febc4642ef3e427abee1678ba985c318\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is departmental advice to the Minister on 10 March 2009 that \u201Cthe closest scenarios\u201D the department is able to provide show the privately run Auckland Central Remand Prison to be more expensive than the public prison service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecdf32ca89d4362a92d3d3ab6a8674e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f83de9c6e254de480ab27d1ff18020f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The next document is departmental advice to the Law and Order Committee on 20 July 2009 and 25 August 2009 that the per prisoner costs of the Auckland Central Remand Prison were more expensive when privately managed than when the Department of Corrections was in management the following year, and more expensive than the per prisoner cost of remand prisoners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb3a2e1183244e1c84cc2a86102426ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just clarify whether this is advice to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291407b9fc3184ffb8eac4f5ed1b420f3\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it is now public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c50537f180a4c7c972c14df25b538f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament already has that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb8e541b98a446588c60bfc97b3ab2e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is germane to the question, Mr Speaker. It is your call, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d880fe30a54b4fbd466e9ce00d24f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table a document presented to the Law and Order Committee. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf7d24c9cc94b22b3e681ace4e3c13f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in the advice given to the Law and Order Committee this afternoon by the chief executive of the Department of Corrections that it would not be equitable to compare the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison with the entire public prison system at the same time, because the Auckland Central Remand Prison dealt only with remand prisoners? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee4149b631c43c6be60222fff3e6c6b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Unless I actually saw the direct quote myself, I could not take for granted that rendition of it from the member, because, of course, he has paraphrased it. I can, however, have confidence in the quote from the department\u2019s chief, who told me that in New South Wales private prisons cost 32 percent less per prisoner than public prisons, and in Victoria they cost 11 percent less. That is the comparable figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078fd0d381b04fda9aee98192e221aa1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Given that we are talking about New Zealand and not Australia, why did the Minister tell the House on 18 August 2009 that Auckland Central Remand Prison\u2019s \u201Cequivalent in the public sector cost $61,796 per prisoner.\u201D, when that is the cost comparison across the entire public prison system, which her chief executive has said is not an equivalent or fair comparison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38bf05e32bd4916ad284ec61922e704\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because those are the figures given to me by the department. I have said time and time again that it is very difficult to actually compare the remand prison when it was run privately\u2014when there was health treatment and there was all sorts of rehabilitation for 70,000 hours a year\u2014with the publicly run prison, where there was not. Unfortunately, that member does not want to hear the truth, but that is what it is. It was a better service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236e4fc2ba1f749ac9f279474125f4e3a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Given that we now have four documents from the Minister\u2019s department that contradict her, is she aware that one of the reasons\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222158b84357c044589e2c99c207d4ddb0\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That cannot be allowed. The member started off without a question and made a highly charged political statement, rather than simply standing up and asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88fd5fbb05749a3957149292ea9caa3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the point the honourable member makes that although I have not insisted on questions starting with a question word, I think it is very unhelpful when members make a provocative statement at the start of a question. I ask the member to not do that, and to ask his question without that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e35ec26d0a045e2ab58d7ac5e23ff37\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could I then get some advice, because it is now a fact on the record of the House that there are at least two, and I think there was an objection to two other documents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a97f504bd9461eb50c7fa88d094de6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a matter that can be litigated by way of point of order. If the member wants, I can go back to insisting questions simply be started with question words. I do not want to do that; I like the House to have more freedom. But the member would be wise not to make a provocative statement at the start of his question. I invite him to ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da46ec927dfb4bf5bf40c23764607bcb\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that one of the reasons it is so difficult to asses the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison is, to quote her departmental advice of 10 March 2009, \u201Cthe lack of visibility on some of the private operators\u2019 information\u201D, and will she therefore support the Supplementary Order Papers introduced by Labour that seek to increase the transparency of private prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aba12c2c3dfd4672a0fa135315a54237\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important to remember that it was some years ago that the Auckland Central Remand Prison was privately managed. I stick to the advice that we are after a quality service in our prisons, not a cheap service. If we were just after cheap, nasty services, we would put everyone in tents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022583dee73a03f4e75905fcbb054216ec4\u0022\u003EWarm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart\u2014Number of Houses Insulated\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278fb948f700c41bcb8dcfb62986144cf\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: How many houses were insulated in October through the Government\u2019s Warm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart home insulation scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa64a0f9a2354f90917a487b7b311139\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa64a0f9a2354f90917a487b7b311139\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Across the country a total of 5,720 houses were insulated in October. In only 4 months nearly 20,000 homes have been made warmer, drier, and healthier, thanks to the financial assistance provided by the Government. I am also pleased to report that 70 percent of the houses insulated in October were occupied by people on low incomes with community services cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf62c7f0f904dc7a98147a729d72779\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to cope with a huge demand for the scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9fdcb2cfb74c708ec78f2083328510\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is responsive to the extraordinary way in which New Zealanders have decided to embrace the scheme. Accordingly, after discussions with the Green Party, we have made arrangements for the original appropriation of $323 million over the 4-year period to become a multi-year appropriation. This will allow a better spread of the funding, so that people will not miss out and have to wait until the start of the next financial year to get assistance. It also means that we will easily be able to surpass the target for the first year of 27,500 homes\u2014something we have almost achieved in 4 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d659115f5334442c9657c19feaa5e44a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he admit that a lower standard of underfloor insulation has been specified by this Government so that it can poorly insulate more homes for the same amount of money that it would have cost to do fewer homes properly; if not, how does he justify lowering the insulation standards that approved providers are expected to meet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ac132a746a4ea88d7cf1ac81e5ee9a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c9520b3bc246ae8b5faf1fbdc86760\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that new money has been allocated to allow low-income households to benefit from the home insulation scheme, as a result of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s relationship with National, and what impact will that new money have, over and above current allocations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223932306bd76f4206b51ef178beff55f8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that. It has previously been announced that discussions between the M\u0101ori Party and the National Government meant that a further $28 million was added to the fund, bringing it up to almost $350 million that will be spent over the period of time. An extra 8,000 low-income households will be warmer and drier as a result of that arrangement. The M\u0101ori Party has expressed its concern about that group of New Zealanders, and the Government has recognised that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961570916ee8400faaf783c66c51a68e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How can he continue to claim that standards have not been lowered, when the latest Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority guidelines suggest that homes previously fitted with foil underfloor insulation should have the foil repaired rather than replaced, and when previously the authority had recommended against foil underfloor insulation, because of \u201Csafety risks, challenging installation, dubious performance, and possible lack of durability\u201D; why is he cutting the corners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222609ebc9e4b14d7fac2ab7fc35e1cb09\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Simply because it is not new installation; it is repair of what is already there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1980fe2fe904693a5baa4983c2832a9\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: By how much is the Heat Smart home insulation scheme forecast to reduce the profits of New Zealand power companies, and how does it compare with the billions of dollars of windfall profits that these same companies will receive under the emissions trading scheme, from, particularly, low-income New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori\u2014or does he not know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a087947b57084d3695eea97213088380\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things that has become abundantly evident in the last few days is that all sorts of figures can be thrown into the mix when we come to discussing the emissions trading scheme, and any figure that does get put into the mix will be widely disputed. The purpose of the home insulation scheme was to improve the health outcomes of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ecbb6b3d8c49dd805c11f816f84f8f\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s answer, but I think he was asked what the reduction was, and whether he did know what it was. What we got from the Minister was his saying that lots of numbers were being bandied around, then restating the goals of the programme. I think the House can take that as his saying that he does not know, but it was hardly answering the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232edaf399cf84e0dacdb8a5f31ae9752\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the point the member has raised, but I think that when one considers the specificity of the question asked and the primary question that was laid down, the chances of the Minister having that particular information would not be high. I think the Minister was indicating that he did not have that particular information. I cannot expect him to give more precise information on such a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022230e00a9ae2d462db644e7340a5a402c\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: By how much is the Heat Smart home insulation scheme set to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and how does it compare with the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme; if he does not know, why have we been sitting under urgency to pass the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c6618d88e54b2eba1e67c9d01eb7a0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, there were a number of aspects to that question, and I think a complication of two very simple issues. I will answer the first one, which was by how much the scheme will reduce the cost of home heating, effectively. Was that the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c4bd33831ff4bbfa92ff943a5f55d77\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd3694e13804aa0a5833ebf23809ead\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, by how much will it reduce greenhouse gases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b76ddd1d604156acde9a957df5ba87\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister does not seem to have understood my question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225496dd89777d451aaba7d13dc25f1296\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The easiest way to resolve the issue would be for the member to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a3512613da48969de14dd87df3c9ff\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: By how much is the Heat Smart home insulation scheme set to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and how does it compare with the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme; if he does not know, then why have we been sitting under urgency to pass the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6f2d4c35f647a89560b47f3d44a21d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The first point is that it would depend entirely on what sort of home heating appliance was being replaced under the scheme. When we have collected all the information on that, we will be able to provide the member with a best estimate. On the matter of why we have been sitting under urgency to pass the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, I take it that the ACT Party now wants to be party to our passing the bill, and I look forward to it casting its vote accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf89dceffa744336b3edfccfae0ddfa4\u0022\u003ETertiary Education, Minister\u2014Decisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce39dab11335439ba9538d2bdf1428e1\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: Does she stand by all the decisions she has made as the Minister for Tertiary Education; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb41b28cfad04105a89dbb369f14b072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb41b28cfad04105a89dbb369f14b072\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e93e46aae14f98817b52825a8581ef\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that the Prime Minister indicated to the Manukau Family Literacy Programme that he may be able to find some money for it after all, despite her original funding cut decision, but that it has now lost the opportunity to continue its programme for at least term 1 of 2010, while officials negotiate around her misguided criteria in order to meet John Key\u2019s wishes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0414c10f0c9443ca6bdcb250a08fbc5\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I totally reject the member\u2019s assertion that the criteria are misguided. What happened was that the request for funding did not fit the criteria, so I have instructed the Ministry of Education to work with the City of Manukau Education Trust to find a way to support the continuation of the programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaefbbd1644f43b3909a10797f8e7920\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What announcements has the Government made recently to provide more opportunities for younger people in polytechnics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e5ff160a2fe41c7b04d44ecaafd9ea5\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has already announced that 2,000 Youth Guarantee places are to be added to the tertiary system next year. That is 2,000 young New Zealanders who will have fees-free learning in tertiary institutions next year. Yesterday I announced that an additional $8 million of funding will be allocated across a number of polytechnics next year. It is being made available to polytechs in areas of high unemployment that have demonstrated an ability to provide for younger students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed264c159ac54834b617457c0b6ee899\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Does she consider the removal under her amended legislation of guaranteed representation of students on polytechnic councils to be consistent with previous assurances she has given to students\u2019 associations about the importance of their presence at the top decision-making table in polytechs, or is this another fix-it job for the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256a855aa0b24f48b4b46692c2f5e6af\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The bill that went to the select committee provided for eight-person councils. With regard to the councils\u2019 composition, a great many submissions expressed a desire for more community representation. The solution that the select committee has proposed is, I think, quite an elegant one; it retains an efficient governance size, and it allows the councils the flexibility to determine whom they have in those four ministerial positions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61bf30383cd48b1a88c7bf5d184d8fe\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Does she continue to stand by her decision to cut adult and community education funding to high schools, now that it is clear that no high school - based adult and community education will be available throughout the whole of Gisborne, Hawke\u2019s Bay, the Hutt Valley, most of the West Coast, and large parts of north, central, east, and south Otago, or will a visit by the Prime Minister to those areas see her decision overturned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab807b653ff241679b03f5e228c4550e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I remind that member that she was part of a Government\u2014in fact, she was the Associate Minister for Tertiary Education\u2014that left a funding hole of $520 million; $520 million that had not been funded that we had to start to find and make changes around. That is the first thing. Secondly, that member continues to misrepresent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb734decf0247e098f3105dea960b29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very interesting speech that the Minister is making, but I heard a question that asked whether the Minister stood by a certain policy. Therefore, I think the Minister in answering is expected to talk about her policy, not the Opposition\u2019s policy. I was trying to hear some response to the question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c34d1431e3497dac82d0a851b62dd2\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the member\u2019s continual misrepresentation of adult and community education as being provided only by schools, I say that, in fact, the instructions to the Tertiary Education Commission were to ensure that there was coverage of adult and community education across New Zealand, with it being provided by schools in some cases, polytechs, and private providers right across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222dffb087ea2d42b3af23ff1abe6f6c25\u0022\u003ESummer Research Scholarships\u2014Progress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e4ed0464d1f485c9deb6908838370c5\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: What progress has been made on the Government\u2019s summer research scholarships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002279933ac7403f4524804871896060e92b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279933ac7403f4524804871896060e92b\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to tell the House that 1,600 places for the summer research scholarships that the Government promised and jointly funded with the New Zealand universities have been filled. Many of these students started their scholarships last week and will be beginning their placements in universities, so that they can further their studies and gain some income over the summer months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022407e627394bc4974a3fa74697eee6402\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government decide to fund the summer research scholarships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccce06858a54dd3b7162e48a2c7f0fc\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The scholarships were first mooted at the Prime Minister\u2019s Job Summit at the beginning of the year, and the Government agreed to meet the universities dollar for dollar up to $4 million in Budget 2009. These opportunities are important for the young people who have obtained them, and these extra places also help to free up other job opportunities for students over the summer period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe4459136744cf99b93199cb7e031e2\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: How do the short-term summer scholarships help the 2,000 - plus mainly low-decile students who had their Step Up and bonded merit scholarships scrapped by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c25261b82d46549fa92345d3ddcdae\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I say to that member that $521 million was promised by the previous Government in tertiary education and not funded. There were some changes to some of those smaller programmes, but they have been well taken care of. I remind the member of the 2,000 Youth Guarantee places that will be funded next year and will take many of those students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276046ec605c344e6975a34f2717ca8aa\u0022\u003ERoading, Kapiti\u2014Community Consultation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54d9dcba7414e0b86971bf8462d1f1c\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What weight is being given to the views of the communities affected by the transport proposals through Kapiti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea5e34f7da3146f7b4d9b63dedb47f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea5e34f7da3146f7b4d9b63dedb47f51\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Associate Minister of Transport) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Transport: The New Zealand Transport Agency is responsible for making the final decision on the State Highway 1 upgrade through the Kapiti region. I am confident that the views of local people and communities are being listened to closely and that each submission is taken on its merit. The New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s job is to balance the wider views of the community, which are extremely important, with the other relevant factors such as the cost, the benefits to the economy, and the impact on the wider region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606a016b3e3447d29f7a4a4b80a8b558\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How will it be possible to read, analyse, consider, and reflect on the 4,100 submissions and then make a decision all in the next 4 weeks, and why were submitters not asked whether they wanted to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296201de7100944f694931501b80290ed\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the New Zealand Transport Agency is working around the clock to process and analyse the submissions. Some people chose on the feedback form to mention that they wanted to present in person to the New Zealand Transport Agency board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317a05b84b4f4ae6b523e903bf91869f\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How will people in residential areas who are affected if a four-lane expressway is built right next to their properties be compensated if none of their land is required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a131d94f0840059e71c4894fda44ec\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That detail probably should be directed to the New Zealand Transport Agency board. My understanding is that there are two pieces of relevant legislation: the Public Works Act and the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265ae51e81fa44c46814a19c3065d1420\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government not offer as an option the platform it joined Labour on during the election campaign\u2014that is, Transmission Gully, rail electrification to Palmerston North, the Western Link Road as a local road, and improvements to State Highway 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb68143871f4bd9a52fdfac40ac0189\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: This area is one of the fastest growing in New Zealand. It connects through to our capital city. We are well aware of the fact that over the last 5 years there have been 59 serious or fatal accidents on that stretch of road between Paraparaumu and Levin. Most of the feedback from the submissions that, I am told, the local MP for \u014Ctaki has received shows that people want action and progress on the issue\u2014after 10 years of inaction by the previous Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a59f1d3cd44341852c0e756dccca38\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is not about the veracity of the last comment but about my question, which asked why a certain option had not been offered to the community. The Minister, in reply, told us about feedback that had been received, but I asked him why the Government did not put to the community, as part of the consultation programme, an option that mirrored the stance that National took at the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad683b553e4404893fa0b14fdd7b0a2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the member\u2019s point. When a member asks why the Government did not do something, the member is not asking the most precise question. The Minister\u2019s answer talked about the increase in population in the area, and although that answer may not be what the member wanted, I believe it was an answer to the question. I cannot start assessing the quality of answers; I can only assess whether the Minister has answered the question in some way. I believe that he did answer the question in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb921a1ba184c7cb02426df6285c421\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek clarification. When the Minister said that he had received submissions from the MP for \u014Ctaki, was that Darren Hughes? Because I thought he lost that seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254fdfc9c82924374982e7da9e18849b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat right away. Nice try but that is not allowed as a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337af9c3ce414732878a7e0b54453f84\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. While we have the leader of the ACT Party with us in the country, I wonder whether he should lose a supplementary question for that very unfair reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9595c317864589896b43272eff4256\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We will not take this any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271047377625a49058c67b2981b5107f5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022a56cdcf33e8d40db91d374ab6e897027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a56cdcf33e8d40db91d374ab6e897027\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Metiria Turei. [Interruption] I apologise to the member but I am on my feet; I ask her to resume her seat. I have called a member, and I have dealt with the points of order that were raised earlier, and I do not think it is very helpful for members to be continuing to interject across the House. I call Metiria Turei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00222061fa7e50014349af74cb1bcbdc864e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222061fa7e50014349af74cb1bcbdc864e\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Although not wishing to challenge your ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6abd2ee8fab43d891400f4bfbf64f8e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddd2ce1620c450489841bbbb50c7075\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014could I just seek your advice, or ask for your reflection. Yesterday you observed what you termed an abuse of the point of order process by a colleague of mine, and I think that last week you docked a supplementary question off my colleague Mr Hodgson. A similar abuse of the point of order process has happened today and the member simply got a slap on the wrist. I invite you to reflect on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5831d78b354d0cad7aeb1b3bfb9809\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I point out to the member that I am the sole judge in these matters, and when I got to my feet the member responded by sitting down. If the member abuses the point of order system again, I will treat it very severely. When I do treat it more severely is when a member does not respond to my getting to my feet and asking the member to resume his or her seat. That is when I take a very dim view of the matter. I have called Metiria Turei and I would appreciate the House allowing her to ask her question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f93bdd9d3dd40508cc213462c8a18f1\u0022\u003EBenefits\u2014Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor Baseline Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231ee7d0e0db4fd18e7c7df78640f66b\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she agree with the authors of the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor baseline report, launched today, that New Zealand\u2019s current benefit provisions are unlikely \u201Cto protect a large proportion of our children from severe or significant hardship\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa68882bff9046b7a8fa7184f86417c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa68882bff9046b7a8fa7184f86417c8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I agree with a lot of what the report says. What I do not agree with is where it states that the number of children in families on benefits is likely to rise. Work and Income is working very hard to help people into jobs so that they can build better futures for themselves and their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4ee348dda44b60b1e23942fee16d0f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that $110 billion over the next 40 years will be enough for her department to make sure that no New Zealand child goes without fruit, veges, raincoats, shoes, or visits to the doctor, which this report shows many are doing today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfe5cf3166d403da2e45c6dd2be869b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What I will say is that it is not just about the money. Research by the Ministry of Social Development in 2002 showed that for two families on the same low income, one on a benefit and one in work, the one in work had better outcomes every time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6311efebfa6446785121de587a40f5d\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Is she aware that many vulnerable families are not accessing the basic support that Work and Income should be providing now, such as the hundreds of people in Rotorua who are asking national beneficiary advocates for help this week because they have not been able to access basic support such as food grants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223889a6956a79403b9757aeecdc8b2e15\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member that the number of special-needs grants has gone up considerably this year, so more people are accessing them via the department. We certainly encourage anyone who is having problems to go to Work and Income. Emergency payments and supplementary money can be made available to them; it is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56eb4d273854498a6ed04d0bea1cb7a\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable that a solo parent raising five children in Rotorua is able to access only $70 from Work and Income to feed them for a week; and does that not show that the benefit system is failing to meet the needs of vulnerable children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed7b92d238594a90adf8144c42d3a777\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It would be too hard to make an assumption based on what the member is saying is the level of support available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904be5596385446792f0702f2452aeed\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How will her plans to force single parents out to work when their youngest child turns 6 relieve severe and significant hardship for those children, when the number of full-time jobs for women is declining; the market for part-time work is highly competitive; hours of existing jobs are being cut back, threatening in-work payments; and rental housing prices for our most vulnerable families continue to rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd752b1733e0492695e1110cad13052c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It would be fair to say that we start from different assumptions. The Green Party assumes that people do not want to work, that those on the domestic purposes benefit are happy to stay on it, and that is how they want to survive. National believes that a lot of them want to work. If the incentives are right and the jobs are right, they will go out and take jobs, and that is what we are focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77eb41d5e1a4ec8b335c2097045983a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If she is serious about helping children in New Zealand, why did the National Government recently turn its back on a suggestion by the Every Child Counts organisation to establish a multiparty working group on children\u2019s issues in Parliament? Instead of agreeing to work with other political parties, the Government refused, stating that Parliament already had enough processes in place to consider issues relating to children. And can she tell the House of the success of one of the processes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248dbcdcac9684349beefdd08b133f809\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Because for 9 long years we had a lot of talk, and now this Government has decided that it is about action. We have seen already this year a number of initiatives that target the most abused and neglected children. The Never Ever Shake a Baby campaign starts on 6 December, and the First Response non-governmental organisation trial will be going out to those businesses, with an independent experts forum delivering actual responses on what we can do. This Government is focused on action, not on a whole bunch of chit-chat that gets nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2c0970450448df8477ff7c71f0b62e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that her naming and shaming of two solo mothers earlier this year who had the audacity to speak out on the impacts of the cuts she had made to the training incentive allowance, which was helping them to get off the benefit, has made it harder to assist beneficiaries and their children, because of the venom and vitriol her comments generated out there in the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da5c21d23504eb79a02ac63c92c5605\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is another example of recycling old arguments. One of those women did not feel it was naming and shaming; she was quite happy with having the information, which was correct, put out there. I make no apologies for telling a true story of where our welfare state is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a85bb6385a254660a14b19f2d59a3ad6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter to me from the Prime Minister, dated 3 November, in which he turns down the suggestion, not from me but from an organisation that does not just do chit-chat, asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb05dcba54e14699955cba9e399de946\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not make that kind of comment when seeking leave to table a document. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c324f7f7218a45fdab2ad8f7452a2d64\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the New Zealand Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor released today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e135ddd9d5f4af4a3fd9f249cc74833\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eeb5c8d5d6974609abec45ee791eeaf7\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill\u2014Hearing Aids\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8002680207437ebd3edf1634afc1c4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Does he think it is fair that his Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Bill will determine the threshold for entitlements to hearing aids rather than clinical need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad5d15cff66340899e56a9e44db827c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad5d15cff66340899e56a9e44db827c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because the law in respect of accident compensation is about defining the extent of the scheme. A scheme with no limits is unaffordable. Other schemes, like WorkCover in Australia, also have a 6 percent threshold for hearing aid entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af6868da45e4c328cb7175f3b228d88\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that a man in his 50s with up to 6 percent noise-related hearing loss cannot hear birds sing, misses most of what his grandchildren say to him, and needs a hearing aid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270aba8025fb04ab5b4516011de5160e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that. The advice that I have received is that the 6 percent limit is a reasonable limit to the point where a hearing aid actually becomes useful. It is a standard that is used in a number of parts of the world. However, the bill is before a select committee, and I will wait for the select committee to report back to the House before making final decisions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3ee5fb00fc4186a3c0e54473266a75\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can he deny criticisms that it is cynical to take away people\u2019s right to sue for work-related hearing loss of up to 6 percent, but then say they will be included in accident compensation cover, so they have no right to sue, when they cannot get a hearing aid or any other treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289095ebe5da14a61a17cdf8bf12f73b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that it is highly unlikely that for industrial hearing loss any case could be pursued in the courts under normal tort. The reasons are, firstly, that it is normally after a very long period, and, secondly, in terms of the proof of fault, that is very unlikely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225324c7d666324d918817f2ffaf24adb4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he continue to say workers in Australia with up to 6 percent work-related hearing loss cannot get a hearing aid, when they can, because the decision is a clinical one in the likes of Victoria and South Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6b4fed4fa64906bb7c9f575ae55333\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There is some variation from state to state in Australia. In New South Wales it is a 6 percent rate. But the decision will still be left to clinicians, in the same way as many other parts of the accident compensation law set out the threshold at which a person gains an entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228830a4626f8143e5905030a6cbd99042\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document showing that in Victoria there is no threshold and one can get a hearing aid for work-related hearing loss at 6 percent, and similarly for South Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48302a74431458791b80306acce0b03\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the source of the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff999fed56154de4b10cb4ea4b17aa48\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It is information that has been provided to me by audiologists in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6152e8366ef49eaaacc8c8dcf8d2aca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table a document provided by audiologists in New Zealand on the thresholds for hearing aid entitlement in Australia. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022405a2371efe24400ba51f2917d1be2d2\u0022\u003EFamily / Wh\u0101nau Violence\u2014Preventive Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb6af699f5fe48658d8dbe96caad622c\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the Government doing to prevent violence within families and wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002265c1628844554cb39137ad3b0fb258e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265c1628844554cb39137ad3b0fb258e2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Today is White Ribbon Day. I am sure that I join with the rest of the House in our stand against family violence, particularly against women. This is an opportunity for all New Zealanders to stand up and show that they will not be standing for that sort of family violence. This morning, the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs and members of the Families Commission joined with the police at the Wellington Railway Station to hand out white ribbons. I can say that it was a fantastic response from the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c822ccb39cc45cf8f8c60b2eb532825\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Government taking to reduce family violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ea70461a1b4a6081d8dc2fa3fa5964\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Much work has been done to raise awareness of family violence over many years. We have to look only at the increased reporting to see that New Zealanders know that it is not OK. But we are past talking about it; now we need to be doing what we can do, what the Government can do, what the community needs to do, and what families can do to stop violence. Minister Turia is focusing her efforts on the doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247210ce6dd454f8cb6c45436224245d3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, has the Minister allowed her Government to increase the trauma of sexual violence by making it harder for victims of sexual abuse to get help through accident compensation, with 111 people having dropped out of the system already across New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225334c6b52f7440e991c2552d3c48a4c0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As the House well knows, those matters are complex. Those decisions are made by clinicians, not by politicians, and that is exactly how it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a425ec346f4c268913624c8f4d89bf\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a document. It is the answer to written question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b571be632a945e0b2d54b9f78d05bc1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the answer to a recent written question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223beacd50cc8f4683bfd6700d35cb2dd5\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it demonstrates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cdee5d519f40b3b64c8f3ba2e243f0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House already has that information. The member will resume her seat immediately. Why did the member continue to make that statement to the House when I was on my feet? In what way was that assisting the order of the House? The member was seeking to abuse the position. I will not tolerate that in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679f8e9878464c7aace1f75a0c41b807\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the statement by the Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners welcoming the changes that the Accident Compensation Corporation has made in respect of sensitive claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7713c9475b147158887e347f15137dd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a press release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0b63c257f64abfb384071cc993c231\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It is a statement by the Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners. It is not a document that would otherwise be generally available to members, and given the debate there has been on this issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab8d2d43f95c4081b3ce0d44eb0cc78d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will take the member\u2019s word for that. Leave is sought to table this document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223133c10a610b41e88207a31ddc7aa4f3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am unclear whether leave was sought for my document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed9e866ab5824283a5c1eb236f226fd0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not seeking leave for that, because that information is readily available to the House. The House has answers to written questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0d167e821364be091e482178a1ecd9f\u0022\u003EEducation, National Standards\u2014Revision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225007dbafcb604eb58b2c5f725af617e9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Was she correctly reported this morning as indicating flaws in her proposed national standards are being addressed; if so, what is the process she is using to address those flaws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00222aac979bf2a946be99aa5e38d3f41964\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aac979bf2a946be99aa5e38d3f41964\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member must be suffering from a bit of jet lag. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab10a35211e54121a0b9ab5695c165f7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, are you going to deal with that, or not? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af590f4401c4dda9d3082d536d3441b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. We can see what happens when members are disorderly. I say to the Minister that that response was totally out of order, and it led to disorder. That will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5df3a92b31c405fb51eb440b3b4d7b5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is there one published expert or academic who agrees with her view on national standards, rather than with the views of Thrupp, Crooks, Flockton, and Hattie, who have today written an open letter to her; if so, who is that academic or expert?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989dd6626c264e26ac7f73628ca1ebec\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Several academics have expressed support at various stages in the process. Several have been involved in their development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a432d8a3f446b5b1e1ffd9767134da\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: What sector involvement was there in the development of the national standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee1222f3ba7438a870a68d2cdfef198\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Over 4,000 principals, teachers, literacy and numeracy advisers, and other professionals attended meetings. There were 1,176 written responses from the sector, of which 490 came from groups representing, in total, 4,557 people. The education sector was also involved in an independent expert panel, which helped to develop the standards, and in the national standards reference group, which provided feedback on the draft standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba36d732a124f8b9a2329c6340b8456\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: If she disagrees with Thrupp, Crooks, Flockton, and Hattie, New Zealand\u2019s four leading assessment academics, who have written to her stating inter alia that full implementation of the intended national standards system over the next 3 years is unlikely to be successful, will not achieve intended goals, and is likely to lead to dangerous side effects, why are they wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f27b9662a049debc63eaf03b822804\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I said this morning that the academics\u2019 concerns are being addressed. For instance, the Ministry of Education is working on how schools can report on children\u2019s progress and achievement in relation to the New Zealand curriculum. Professor John Hattie himself is participating in this work. I say to that member that parents want this proposal, and they want national standards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb782f7fcf14fa4aba19d2562a54fc5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I always get concerned when Ministers start with \u201CI say to that member\u201D, because it invariably means they are no longer answering the question. The Minister answered the question, and that is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668a041b23c444c9b455aecdcbd82336\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hate to disagree with the ruling you have just made as to whether the Minister has sufficiently answered the question, but I do not think she actually got to the question about the specifics of why she disagrees with those four experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bfb1beff9844fff96b7f1f54cd6e2cb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did point out that she did not disagree totally with the experts, and that in fact one of the experts was involved in working on the scheme to address issues that were of concern. I believe that that was a perfectly fair answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbfe8c4307b45af9d84d280f7a4df85\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Was her reading of this picture book to a group of secondary school teachers designed to be evidence of her ability to meet literacy standards, and was she describing her position with the line about rats having a better life, or was she telling teachers that the final line, \u201CYou have to be happy with a lot less.\u201D, applies to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225522ec7735e54fcab3e35d047eb9a6c8\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest that that member reads the book. It is a great read. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298332bc3e4424667bdd5d851fcf423cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Interjections that are nasty are not helpful, at all. I ask the House to just take a deep breath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6546d6f7f294dbfa098673e960454a3\u0022\u003EImmigration\u2014Silver Fern Visa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83273d9893043638c546e99a0e3a107\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What announcements has the Government made on the introduction of the Silver Fern Visa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u002271c98d9abf9a4b34a08ff5be4d148f07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271c98d9abf9a4b34a08ff5be4d148f07\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Today the Government announced the launch of the Silver Fern Visa. It is designed to attract highly skilled young people to New Zealand. The Silver Fern Visa creates a pathway to residency for young people educated overseas and fulfils the National Party\u2019s manifesto commitment to access higher-level skills for the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c03188e330b4f6eae64f1cea0f1b6e8\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new Silver Fern Visa policy work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022099c76cd7aa8477aa6ef7288eea7918c\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Applicants with high educational qualifications aged between 20 and 35 will be eligible to apply for one of 300 Silver Fern Jobseeker Visas, issued annually. This gives them 9 months to search for a skilled job. Once they have skilled employment, they get a further 2-year permit that will allow them to gain points under the skilled migrant category and apply for residence. The Silver Fern Visa is about attracting the right skills and matching them to the employment needs of the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237e35e339ea44e759a6ba83e54998631\u0022\u003EAorangi School\u2014Closure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765657c0627943ef9cdfdc459cd15fc5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Why did she not ensure that the Aorangi School board was given time to inform teachers and parents of the confirmation of her decision to close the school before the announcement was made public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c67c76aa72fc414380a8fcf528dc7afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c67c76aa72fc414380a8fcf528dc7afd\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Under the Education Act the decision to close a school is made by the Minister of Education. The Ministry of Education communicated my decision to the chairman of Aorangi School yesterday afternoon. I thought it necessary to notify and explain my decision to the community directly and immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c78beb7cd32475b8587fb8a44cb81ee\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that two of the four schools in the 1.5 kilometre radius of Aorangi School have enrolment schemes that exclude almost all Aorangi School students; if so, why did she allow a misleading impression to be created that there are more options for these children than there are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca476f93a6943f5ae2c96e74a286abc\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because there will be one fewer school in the area and the enrolment schemes will have to be redone. I informed the board of that quite some time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77be5c62eb542eda7017ee88e28ebf6\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Did she follow the ministry\u2019s advice to discuss her final decision with the Hon Dr Pita Sharples, an Associate Minister of Education; if so, when did she do that and what was his response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa02ee4ade541f29115502477d8ca99\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I informed Dr Pita Sharples of my decision yesterday afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f968bc4a4734279a37897333496b734\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: How does she respond to the statement from Aorangi School principal, Stephanie Thompson, that closing the school sent a clear message that the National-led Government did not believe that a low socio-economic, multicultural part of Christchurch was as important as other groups; and what specific provision will be made for the wh\u0101nau affected by the closure of the only bilingual unit in the north-east of Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a83655c794247e1b194976c83911456\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There are two parts to that question. With regard to the first part, I absolutely reject the offensive suggestion that the decision to close Aorangi School was based in any way on the economic and cultural elements of the area. The reasons have always been the cost of the rebuild, the roll\u2019s size, and the number of schools in close proximity. With regard to the second part of the question, I have stated a number of times that I am committed to ensuring that there is an ongoing provision for bilingual education in the area. I have directed the Ministry of Education to work with Ng\u0101i Tahu and local boards of trustees on this very important decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31fcbc4284949a0b04b7faaf9ec3d3a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister appeared to be reading the answer to that question. I wonder whether she was reading from the official document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228866619bdc8849ae9c1b45daed04d1f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister whether she is reading from official documents. The Minister indicates that it is not an official document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d7465b0ad142898e9c45bdd359936e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Has she or her ministry advised the principal and board of trustees of Waimairi School and Fendalton Open Air School that their zones will be altered as a result of this decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c4b712d92b4c89a259be6308ab63f0\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The decision to close Aorangi School was made and announced yesterday. A change-manager is being appointed as soon as possible by the Ministry of Education, and he or she will be in contact with all the surrounding schools. I say to the member that the children who attend Aorangi School come from quite a wide section of Christchurch, so it is impossible to tell at this stage how many children will be going to the surrounding schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209798d4c8b7642ccb8a576ec3c18d110\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question to her asked whether the two schools that are covered by enrolment zones had been informed that there would be a change to their enrolment zones. That was a very specific question, and she has not addressed it, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c250fd3ef404ec59c75d25e73b36a44\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that that was the absolute thrust of the question. If the Minister has that information, I would appreciate it if the House could have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269216be9519a4263ad54e359cfbd7911\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The first point is that the Minister did say that the change-manager would take care of this matter. That has to be an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226688eaa88764499fb354f41bd56fd408\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Count the votes, Gerry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65ae3c0a385402ea0bce53151fec873\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I am, don\u2019t you worry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2f6cea81b24dc58b8375cdcd62b369\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. I say to the Hon David Cunliffe and the Hon Gerry Brownlee that when I am on my feet they will de-decease from interjecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d808d1d3a2cb4ec6b2e92480b6bb4fa5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Decease!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c045587e89b432bb1528d4bb7961419\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker can get tongue-tied too. I say to the member who has raised the point of order that the question asked whether the schools have been advised that the enrolment schemes would be changed. Whether someone is being appointed to change-manage the process is another matter. Whether the schools have advised is a fairly simple matter. The Minister may not have that information, and it is perfectly acceptable if she does not. If she does have the information, I think it is reasonable that it be provided to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4ef5434947142a697766345f3801ac6\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The decision was made yesterday afternoon. A change-manager is being appointed. I have no knowledge as to whether that change-manager has informed those schools. But they know that there will be one less school in the area, so it is normal that the enrolment schemes would be re-done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9803c6412d74eef9d3518cf8f555734\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe3cb34ec502496eb279c3fb8c526264\u0022\u003EReserves and Other Lands Disposal Bill\u2014Letter to the Speaker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022be1b7ab697f24653a12c1a7af7a40efa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be1b7ab697f24653a12c1a7af7a40efa\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I waited until the end of question time before raising this matter. As you may know, I have written to you regarding the Reserves and Other Lands Disposal Bill. I wonder whether you could give an indication as to when you may be able to respond regarding the order of including the private matter within that bill. I wonder whether you have had a chance to look at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022df742614126c46bc8449235522e15f50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df742614126c46bc8449235522e15f50\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has written to me about this matter. The member is perfectly at liberty to come and see me about it, but it is not a matter for the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229522bbaa88424168bf7cde02247d4080\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1e74da103b849debc13a865d297495f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000721\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef89eaf9ed2a4d4e9dcf8e22af5beed1\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022845ef5bbd16a484c8bf4538688183175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022845ef5bbd16a484c8bf4538688183175\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation is about detail, and today is a very, very sad day for this nation, in the sense of the surety that we tend to espouse. The legislation has simply been about going to Copenhagen; this whole bill is scribed in double Dutch. At the end of the day I plead with the M\u0101ori Party leaders not to vote with this Government at the end of this debate, because there are some simple fundamentals about this whole issue. The major polluters are being let off free, they are running wild, and that person from Napier who just passed a comment should have a look at Whirinaki, have a look at the creeks in Whakat\u0101ne, and more than certainly have a look at the rivers and the pollution that goes into Poverty Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWhy would this legislation be a negative for M\u0101ori? Quite clearly there is a Treaty settlement process, but one wonders why this bill was taken outside the process, and why iwi were settled with. I can say, being half Ng\u0101i Tahu, that well be it in relation to the settlement. But in relation to the emissions trading scheme proper, the Minister for Climate Change Issues has been inventing the figures. He knows full well that he has to find money; we know full well where it has to come from. It has to come from health, from education, and from all of those areas that are very, very relevant to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286abd5d2a81b429c8b5952fbff0b744f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224198783301744f87952de8788f70dff9\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can shake his head, but some of us have been around as long as he has, and we know that that is what will happen to M\u0101ori. But he has plumped it up with a little addition on the side\u2014the insulation of about 10,000 houses. That is one-fourth or one-fifth of all M\u0101ori households. I understand there will be the insulation of State homes, which the Government would have done anyway. The omission or the contradiction is quite simply that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EDairy farmers this year received an extra $100,000 payout. But are they pulled up? Is there any prescription, in the sense of making sure that they do not continue to pollute? No\u2014no way! There is a river in Whakat\u0101ne, in the electorate of my colleague Ururoa Flavell, that is so black and dark that all the life in it is stagnant or has been removed. There is a great overseas indigenous saying: \u201CWhen the rivers have darkened and the fish are lost, and the mountain tops lose the snow, and the trees crumble to dust, then the world will understand that it is not just about money.\u201D That is what Paul Quinn understands\u2014moni, which translates to money. This is about moni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party came in here in relation to its mana, and Labour members were chastised about the foreshore and seabed. This is the foreshore and seabed situation again, but three or four times worse. With the accumulation of accident compensation charges and the 90-day employment legislation, Paul Quinn is punishing his people, and he knows it. His Government has accumulated negative issues like that 90-day bill and the new accident compensation charges, and this legislation on top of that is a shocker. Paul Quinn can sit there and try to abdicate responsibility for what he has done for the M\u0101ori people. He knows this bill is a shocker. He is supposed to be one of the bright macro minds in M\u0101oridom; he knows about the corporate front, he knows about the top end, and he knows about making sure that they are looked after. But this legislation is about our people, and it is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI am saddened, because I know that the M\u0101ori Party leader, Minister Sharples, is well revered. He is a sensible person, but this process is shambolic. I am stunned that the M\u0101ori Party even cares to go with it. This is one of the biggest \u201Cbrown\u201D pay-offs\u2014buy-offs\u2014that has ever been made in this House. People have said that the foreshore and seabed issue brought in the M\u0101ori Party. No, the M\u0101ori Party brought in the foreshore and seabed issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ELet me tell Mr Tremain that up there in Hawke\u2019s Bay the unemployment rate is running at about 12 percent. What did the Prime Minister say? He said that the rate was great because it was 8 percent. That is relevant to this legislation, because it will be common language in the years to come, when our people, 60 percent of whom are under the age of 15, will suffer through it. They will pay for the legislation as taxpayers. People in M\u0101oridom generally always have been taxpayers, but do members know that most freezing workers in this country have barely had 3 to 4 weeks\u2019 work over the last 2 months? Do members understand that? [Interruption] I say that the deals with the five iwi that that member is talking about are done, and that is between that Government and them. But that is not the issue. I tell Paul Quinn that the issue is about what the legislation will do to our people. He knows that. He knows, as well, that the M\u0101ori unemployment rate is all over the place\u2014and he can add to that. You can cry like one of us, but you do not know about M\u0101ori people. That is why they have stuck you back there, and not on the front bench. Do you care? This is the same thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226616c4e273934116aa1b130e28c9b577\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is including the Chair in the debate, and I could take offence at that, especially at the vigour with which he is doing it. The member should be a little more careful about how he chooses his words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5528350cbfe4d8aa44bc64efe157ca6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have been listening very carefully to the use of \u201Cyou\u201D, and to including you in the debate. To your right there has been a constant barrage from Mr Quinn that included you in the debate. I wonder whether you could perhaps hear that breach of the Standing Orders, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224275f9f7393346fe80569d30c1f11c4d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I had actually missed that. I apologise to the Committee, because I was making a general comment. When members use a great deal of vigour, which they are entitled to do, it can be quite offensive if the Chair is included. All members should note that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f61d0703d94a588712701b2874c7ac\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Further to the point of order by my learned colleague, I just point out that Mr Quinn is not sitting in his usual seat, and there is a Standing Order that prevents members from moving seats for the purposes of interjection. As my colleague has said, he is one of the brightest minds of M\u0101oridom in the National Party, and I am sure that he has something valuable to say, but it would be better if he chipped in from his own seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce5610b3aa04104b1136eedb59929a2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the point of order, I tell members that Speakers\u2019 rulings are quite clear that members should not move to have an advantage. I do not believe that the member did that, but I would caution him that he has a loud voice, and he ought to show some decorum around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764efcc437cc4fa28110c8aeec02bc72\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: He has a loud voice because he has a hearing impairment, and I excuse him for that. The brightest M\u0101ori member there is my cousin Hekia Parata, not him. But I apologise for that, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI tell the Committee that there is no incentive under National\u2019s plan for big polluters to reduce emissions, and National knows that that is going on all over the place. This legislation is about kissing or kicking off\u2014as in Big Brother\u2014in relation to Rio Tinto and all those overseas companies, and leaving ourselves alone. That is the reality. As the floods bash homes in England\u2014the land where the colonisers came from\u2014and set to on all those families, and as the fires burn in Australia, we do not have to be rocket scientists to understand what is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThat big buffoon over there who is bellowing does not care. He talks about energy and the costs that are going up. He is lacking energy at the end of the day, and at the end of the day we are running up costs of $110 billion that have to be taken from somewhere. Those people scorn that figure, but they talked about the closing of the gaps, they got into the \u201Ciwi Kiwi\u201D debate, they flip-flopped, and they said there would never be any single targeting of M\u0101ori development\u2014never! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EBut what is this about? It is a buy-off; it is a trade-off. Where is the guarantee? Minister Turia has been talking about Wh\u0101nau Ora. What does that mean? It means \u201Cwhan\u0101u family betterment\u201D. This legislation does not add to family betterment, yet the M\u0101ori Party came in here with basic fundamentals about kaitiakitanga, and all those things like awhitanga. They are all relevant to a good country, clean and dear to our soul. But what has that Government done? At the end of the day Mr Brownlee and company have really run off with this bill and rushed it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EAs a party, even though we did not see the detail, we have voted for the Treaty amendment; we have supported that. The amendment did not go even to the select committee, so a fair bit of this legislation has been run through, not by parties who care about it but by people who do not care. But I can stand here and listen to this waffle over the years about how we must not spend money on specific M\u0101ori issues. That member from Hastings knows about that, because the takutai moana is still there in his area but the T\u016Btaekur\u012B River is just that. It runs out to sea with all the blinking damage of pollution, and over at Whirinaki the mill is polluting the air like hang. What is the member doing about it? He goes around kissing the M\u0101oris on the marae to get a few votes, because he knows it is all about that, but at the end of the day he does not know, because people with plenty of money have chastised M\u0101oridom into a lower and deeper phenomenon. I want to let members know about that, because that member has done a hue and cry about it but he knows that it is wrong. He knows that overall it is wrong. That member knows that M\u0101oridom is not where it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has simply traded away critical spending, in areas, as I have said before, such as health and education. We do care about that, especially when we listen to a Minister over on the other side of the Chamber who is hell-bent on just closing anything down and not wanting to ensure that M\u0101ori education is important. Members can mark my words as the years go along, and as our very, very young population\u2014one of the youngest in this country\u2014grows up and has to pay tax. Most M\u0101ori people from the age of 40 to 65 are from the labouring ilk\u2014excuse the pun. They are people who have worked and paid taxes right from the age of 16. So it is rubbish about M\u0101ori not earning and paying taxes. They have paid them, and so have some of the working class P\u0101keh\u0101, but taxes will be put back on them again. The Government is looking after the top end and saying \u201CNever mind the bottom end.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI say shame on the M\u0101ori Party; it is adding to the injury of all this. Today is a sad day for M\u0101oridom. There is nothing to crow about, and the fact that the M\u0101ori Party has held hands with National to do this is amazing. It is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002271aa5278246b49aab04240852959ed2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271aa5278246b49aab04240852959ed2a\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that the Chair will be happy to take a double-call, a 10-minute call. We are debating the name of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. Rather than calling it that name, why not call it the \u201CLost Opportunities Bill? Why not the \u201CWhen is a Subsidy Not a Subsidy, and When is a Subsidy a Subsidy Bill\u201D? Why not the \u201CTax the Poor Bill\u201D? Why not the \u201CLet Us Devalue M\u0101ori Fisheries Bill\u201D? There are many names we could give the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI am deadly serious when I suggest naming it the \u201CLet Us Devalue M\u0101ori Fisheries Bill\u201D. The reason I say that\u2014and let me be very clear to National\u2014is that, under this emissions trading scheme, beyond 2013 there will be no relief available to M\u0101ori fisheries whatever. Currently they generate some 600,000 emissions units, or carbon units, and the taxpayer is being given an allowance from the United Nations for those 600,000 units. We will continue to get that allowance; as a country, we will continue to get that allowance in 2013, in 2014, and for many years after. But will we pass the benefit of that allowance on to M\u0101ori fisheries\u2014in fact, to all fisheries? No, we will not. We will stop it dead on 31 December 2012. And at what cost? Well, at $25 a tonne, those 600,000 units of emissions will cost the fisheries industry in New Zealand $15 million. That industry currently makes $60 million in gross margins. So a tax of this nature represents 25 percent of its profit. It is a trade-exposed sector. It is an emissions-intensive sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Climate Change Issues knows it, because he said exactly that in his minority report on Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme just on 12 months ago. And did he take the opportunity to fix it? Did the M\u0101ori Party insist upon it being fixed? No, they did not. They left the trade-exposed, emissions-intensive fishing industry to be hung out to dry in 2013. All I can say to the Minister is that if the Sanford fish processing plant in Nelson should close at some stage in the future, it will be on his head, and I hope his constituents are aware of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620ae7fa61f647fbb5bd129eb6cac9ef\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Sealord, not Sanford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346e4e0cf42743a192ca01cea6b01f45\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, it is Sealord. I apologise, and thank Maryan Street. It is the Sealord plant in Nelson, not the Sanford plant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThis has been a reckless process. We heard that this bill was pushed through the Finance and Expenditure Committee in 6 weeks. I gave credit to Mr Foss, the chairman, and he deserves credit, because he was given a hospital pass. Mr Foss was given instructions to give submitters less than 24 hours\u2019 notice. We had 380 submissions, of which 170 said they wanted to be heard orally, but Mr Foss\u2019 riding instructions were to hear only 30 submissions and to hear them in 2 days. The Labour Party said the committee was given 1 day; my recollection is that it was given 2, and that is what my minority report says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EBut I also give credit to Rahui Katene, who sits alongside me, because she had the courage and the wisdom to vote with the Opposition and the ACT Party to allow the people who wanted to submit on this bill to submit. [Interruption] Yes, she did. And I say to Mr Cunliffe that although the M\u0101ori Party may be coming in for some criticism right now, I think we need to acknowledge that had it not been for Rahui Katene voting with the Labour Party and the ACT Party, we would not have heard 90 of the 125 people who came to the select committee. So I give Rahui Katene full credit for that. And I give Rahui Katene credit for the M\u0101ori Party press release that she passed to me as she was walking back from the Prime Minister\u2019s press conference on Monday afternoon. What does it say? It says: \u201CIt is estimated that as a result of the Maori Party concessions on petrol, power and insulation, households will save at least $4 a week.\u201D That is it\u2014$4 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party genuinely believed that the M\u0101ori Party had secured some concessions over and above what was in National\u2019s original bill; it had secured some additional concessions. When I questioned the Minister in his office on Tuesday morning, he confirmed to me that there were, indeed, no additional concessions. Electricity will go up by 10 percent on 1 January 2013, and there will be massive windfall profits for electricity companies that generate from water\u2014hydro power\u2014and from geothermal energy. It is estimated that those profits run at about $300 million a year, so we are talking about projections to 2050 that some billions of dollars will be paid by ordinary New Zealanders. To whom? To the shareholders of Genesis and Meridian Energy, which is us, and to the shareholders of Contact Energy and TrustPower. So it is little wonder that there has been speculation today that the ruling council of the M\u0101ori Party is meeting because it is very, very concerned about the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support for this bill, because the poorest New Zealanders will pay the biggest proportion of their incomes for basic staples like electricity. They can go without petrol\u2014they can ride buses\u2014but everyone needs electricity. People need electricity to cook and to light up their homes. Electricity is a major component of living cost, certainly for low-income New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EPete Hodgson said earlier that the ACT Party is not interested in climate change, and that it calls it a hoax and a scam. He was extremely critical of Rodney Hide. Well, the science is unproven. In the last few days the data processing system\u2014the computers\u2014of the climate science unit at East Anglia University were opened up to hackers, and the scientists at that unit have had to acknowledge that some of the leaked emails are indeed true. At the very least, that indicates dishonesty on the part of those scientists; at the worst, it indicates massive fraud. The ACT Party has said, and said consistently, that we should not be pushing headlong into doing this. The Minister well knows, although he may wish to deny it, and the National backbenchers know\u2014the National backbenchers are not dumb\u2014that they will have to go to their constituencies and defend this bill. They will have to defend it next week, and they have to defend it at the 2011 general election. We could have postponed the effective introduction date of Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. We could have sought a much better compromise. We could have looked to protect the fishing industry in exactly the same way as we are protecting the farming industry beyond 2013. There is so much more that we could have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EEarlier this afternoon Rodney Hide took possession of a petition from Neil and Esther Henderson. They were in the gallery earlier this afternoon; they may not be there now. They are farmers from Gisborne. Over the last 6 weeks they have collected over 10,000 signatures opposing this emissions trading scheme. Why have they done that? Well, it is a well-known fact that some 50 percent of our emissions come from agriculture, but at the present time the maximum use of technology will reduce those emissions by only 13 percent\u2014only 13 percent. So if we are to have any realistic chance of a 50 percent reduction in emissions by 2050, essentially we are saying that the other half of our economy has to reduce its emissions by 87 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d648887c273a40b297b47e1fa31c359c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: 50 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275cfa890045a43c79c006c4673717173\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Smith that technology may well develop over the next 40-odd years to allow agriculture to reduce its emissions beyond 13 percent, but we do not know that it will. We cannot be certain of it. For this Government to enter into any binding commitment to that sort of reduction by 2050 without knowing how it will be achieved is no more than reckless. If this Government is to make any commitment at all, it should be making commitments based on known technology. The select committee heard that we can make improvements. The output of the Kinleith mill has increased by some 50 percent while the absolute level of emissions has reduced. But in terms of agriculture we are talking about changing the digestive system of a cow or a sheep. We are talking about developing grass. We hear the Green Party express concern about genetic modification, but those members seem to be very\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00222d308cac1a29492e89d987faa7b1f20d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d308cac1a29492e89d987faa7b1f20d\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairperson\u2014[Interruption] I am sad to hear such disappointment that I have been called to speak. I have been sitting here thinking that for about 4 hours a week for at least 20 weeks of this year I have sat on two select committees hearing about the emissions trading scheme, and it has been a very interesting time. During those hearings we have heard from environmentalists who say that the emissions trading scheme does not go far enough, from business interests who say that the emissions trading scheme goes too far, from farmers who argue that they should not be part of an emissions trading scheme, and from M\u0101ori interests who argue that they need to look after the interests of M\u0101ori households, the environment, and the M\u0101ori economy. It is very clear that whichever way the M\u0101ori Party votes, somebody will be unhappy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe had to look very carefully at what we were going to do about the emissions trading scheme. We did not enter into our decision at all lightly. I was a little bit concerned about the things that have been said in the Chamber today. Some of the things that have been said today have been very ironic. For example, the Greens are very concerned that the M\u0101ori Party is about to be shafted. The Greens should know all about being shafted. They were shafted when they got cosy with Labour. Indeed, when Labour was passing its emissions trading legislation and conning the Greens, Labour came to the M\u0101ori Party and implored us to support its scheme. Labour members preferred to work with the M\u0101ori Party because they did not want to be working with\u2014and this is a direct quote\u2014\u201Cthe crazy Greens, who are off their tree\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8db9ef144647bbb40f98d246cddff3\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Is that what they said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdffb273c8074a3b8dd0ef21f11abfe2\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is what they said. The Greens know about being shafted because their legislation to remove age discrimination from the workplace was renamed as the Minimum Wage (New Entrants) Amendment Bill, which was a mini version of the 90-day Mapp bill both Labour and the Greens vigorously opposed. But with the change in the name of their bill they, along with Labour, ensured that young people would continue to be discriminated against. Sue Bradford, the sponsor of the bill, recognised the principled stand of the M\u0101ori Party, which voted against that bill, when she said: \u201CI would also particularly acknowledge the M\u0101ori Party members, who are opposing the Bill in its amended form, but who are in fact its fiercest supporters. I am grateful for the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s unflinching and uncompromising support for the bill as originally conceived rather than in its watered-down version, and I hope that one day their party and ours, and others, will join in going the whole way in abolishing youth rates altogether. This bill, even as it was originally drafted, was a compromise all along. Right from the start I was criticised in some quarters\u2014and rightfully so\u2014for putting up a bill that did not do away with age discrimination altogether but maintained it for workers under 16.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b24fa2b1a14b199bbfcc15c5fc15d6\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As endearing as it may be for the member to read through the list of other bills that the M\u0101ori Party has welshed on, I point out that it is not relevant to the bill at hand. I ask that you bring the member back to the bill in the remaining 5 seconds she has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3323a23d9d49c3864d3fa545358c33\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: By tradition, the speeches on the preliminary clauses have come to cover a wider issue, and I think the member is only following a pattern that we have had throughout this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b42876984540069af4922cc73c58f4\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Just to point out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022438beebab7f744cc8362cef0fd1f0ec8\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. If you are happy for the member to refer to completely different legislation from the bill that is supposedly the topic of this important debate in the Chamber, I ask that the member at least clarify for the Committee which bill she refers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d502a413b0747788ccc38b0414e2685\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Members do refer to other things in order to support the arguments they are making. I am prepared to hear members and see them draw a conclusion from what they are saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228341261ff1a840f9a7cad6a8f9b6e4b6\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point that the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill and will continue to support it until it is enacted, I say that we are very interested to hear the points that other parties have to make, but we are not persuaded by them. Those arguments are made out of pure self-interest. We will continue to make that point because the existing scheme has nothing at all to do with M\u0101ori. There is nothing M\u0101ori in the existing scheme. We are very pleased to be working with a party that is able to see beyond its self-interest; to see how M\u0101ori contribute to the economy, to the environment, and to households; and to see that this bill will help them to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to know that others outside of this Chamber support this bill. We are pleased about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf9806b08c94d369cbad789dad7668d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf9806b08c94d369cbad789dad7668d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the title and commencement clauses of this terrible Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat was an extraordinary contribution from Rahui Katene. I thought that the contribution from John Boscawen was very fair; indeed, she did vote with Labour at the Finance and Expenditure Committee to ensure that all submitters could be heard. I really appreciated that support, and I know that the submitters did, and I think that comment was only fair. John Boscawen left out the Greens, of course, who also supported that motion. But, suddenly, Rahui Katene was pulled into line by the Government, which realised that she might also allow us an extension of time so that we could consider the bill properly. She was told that she could not vote with the Labour Party any more. She even said to us that the M\u0101ori Party would be voting with National all the way through to the end, before the committee had considered the rest of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI have been thinking about what other names we could have for this legislation. I think we could call it the \u201CClimate Change Response (Money-Go-Round Rob Peter to Pay Paul) Amendment Bill\u201D, because the Minister in the chair\u2014the Minister for Climate Change Issues\u2014and other National members are very fond of going on and on about how they will halve the cost to households of this legislation. What Dr Nick Smith does not say is that the reason they are doing that is to allow companies dealing with liquid fossil fuels\u2014the petrol companies and the power companies\u2014to retire only half the emissions units that they would otherwise have to retire in terms of the emissions that they put out. That means that the taxpayer picks up the rest. On the one hand, the Minister is telling us that taxpayers should be grateful for the fact that they may not have to pay, I think, $165 a year, but, on the other hand, who will have to pay for the difference? It is the taxpayer. Well, I think that is what we would call Tory charity\u2014take with one hand and give with the other. That is exactly what is happening. It is a money-go-round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWithin that, there is absolutely no mention of the $110 billion liability that is being put on future taxpayers. National members conveniently leave that bit out. When they talk about the cost to consumers, they conveniently leave out the fact that New Zealand taxpayers under this amendment bill\u2014which is supported by the M\u0101ori Party\u2014will now have to come up with $110 billion so that our big polluters can keep on polluting. Grassroots M\u0101ori, who have absolutely no influence on the way that Rio Tinto controls and handles its emissions, will have to pay for those emissions, and Rahui Katene says that is OK. Grassroots M\u0101ori families have absolutely no control over the way that all the big emitters in this country control their emissions\u2014because they cannot make big companies like Rio Tinto reduce their emissions\u2014but they will have to pay for it. The Minister thinks that is fair and Rahui Katene thinks that is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELabour has always accepted that there would be a transition period and has always accepted that there would be free allocation, for many of the same reasons that the Minister has given. But for the Minister to try to claim that what Labour wanted to do and what National wants to do are the same is incredibly misleading. Labour wanted to transition New Zealand to a low-carbon economy, and we were looking at complementary measures that would assist that. We wanted to have an emissions trading scheme that would reduce New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions, as opposed to one that would give incentives to increase greenhouse gas emissions as long as the emission of greenhouse gases per unit of production remains the same. And the M\u0101ori Party says that is OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Minister also likes to go on about alignment with Australia. He gets really angry with my colleague Charles Chauvel whenever he tries to claim that there is no Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme law in Australia, which there is not. There is no Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme law in Australia. Maybe we could call this legislation the \u201CClimate Change Response (Alignment with Unicorns, Leprechauns, and Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme Law) Amendment Bill\u201D, given that those three things do not exist. The Minister has been getting very tetchy whenever my colleague raises the possibility that we may be aligning our scheme with a scheme that may never happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI thought this bill was a terrible bill, but I did not think that it was so bad that the Hon Nick Smith could almost bring down the leader of the Liberal Party in Australia; it appears that this bill is as bad as that. It appears that Malcolm Turnbull, the Liberal Party leader and Leader of the Opposition in Australia, may be rolled at some point this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMinister Nick Smith has been getting very upset with my colleague when he has said that there is no Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme law in Australia, but the Minister has not explained why we are aligning our scheme with Australia\u2019s. For example, why are we insisting that agriculture face the same kind of regime as industrial processes in Australia? Why are we aligning with a scheme that does not include agriculture, when our scheme does? Agriculture contributes 50 percent of our emissions and only 15 percent of Australia\u2019s, and agriculture will not be included in the Australian scheme. Why are we aligning our scheme with that scheme, when we do not know when it will come in\u2014if, indeed, it ever does come in? It is changing by the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97dff84f76745f8824103c2f77e4f75\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because we promised we would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226170c5b210334dd38331763f456a0012\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: A lot has changed since the election, I say to the Minister. The Minister has done many things, and his Government has done many things, since the election, and they have claimed that is because things have changed. This week we have already seen the Labor Government in Australia making a lot of concessions and a lot of compromises, trying to get cross-party support from the Liberal Party. It has been a changeable feast. Our Government will blindly align our scheme with that scheme, when we do not even know what will be in it, if it exists at all. I think the Minister would have done very well in the Committee stage of this debate to accept the amendment from my colleague Charles Chauvel that removed that requirement. The Minister still could have been working towards alignment, and still could have been doing all the work that I know he is currently doing with the Australian Government over alignment. I ask why we are setting ourselves up like that, or is the Government opposing the amendment just because the Labour Party put it forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will also respond to something else that the Minister said earlier, when he spoke before the lunch break and question time. I think we could also call this bill the \u201CClimate Change Response (Hon Dr Nick Smith Walked Away from Negotiating with Labour Because He Did Not Want Phil Goff to Get Any Credit) Amendment Bill\u201D. Let us be quite clear: when we were in negotiations with the Minister, he told the Labour members who were in that room that some people on the ninth floor of the Beehive thought that the negotiations with Labour were a mistake, because they might give Phil Goff the boost that the section 59 negotiations had given John Key. He told us that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c61e64ce1584ceb8037c54cdbdb8410\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a94024d0fa4c0ca02f59ccf7353074\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister told us that. That was exactly what he told us. The fact is we knew that that was a reality for the National Government, and we accepted that, but we thought that cross-party agreement was very important in this area. Remember that just about every submitter from the business sector who came to the select committee said that what they wanted was certainty. What they did not want was a scheme that would go backwards and forwards between National and Labour, with both parties putting forward their versions while in Government, and creating enormous uncertainty. We agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbc4518882f41ce8f98a1bfb1353d03\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Well, stop playing politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71a49e5d24140989026b1cc1e6517e7\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, please! The Minister stood up in this House and misrepresented what Labour members said in those negotiations. He asked why we had agreed to things in our negotiations when we do not agree with them now. He does not understand that we were there to reach a compromise with the Government. We were there. We appreciated that we had not won the election, that the Government has a mandate to make changes, and that we would not be able to get our way on everything. That was why we were prepared to compromise, even if it was on things that we would not do if we were in Government. We thought those negotiations were going very well, we thought we had a real chance of getting a durable emissions trading scheme, and the Hon Dr Nick Smith walked away from it. He walked away from it. He said that we should have just known that he was dealing with the M\u0101ori Party. Well, that is fine. I ask the Minister to answer me this question: why did he not pick up the phone and tell Charles Chauvel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6ed4639b204ebcafecb9c3e14e16ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because he would\u2019ve leaked it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7eb895835dd4a6082b9ffe4a9b7f3f6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no, the Minister should listen\u2014that he was walking into a room now to announce that National had done a deal with the M\u0101ori Party? He could have talked on the phone, then walked straight into the room and made the announcement. Why did he not do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8e5bb485ea4ccfb3b600dde84f8568\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Because he would\u2019ve leaked it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f3c49b615b4a419cd74fb49a3d4cf6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says that Charles Chauvel would have leaked it in the 5 seconds between the Minister telling the Labour Party and the Minister making the announcement. Labour members believed that they were in a good position with the National Government and that they were making progress. We had had a great meeting the week before. We had sent through a document for the Minister to respond to, with a proposed summary of the issues\u2014where we should go from here, what information we wanted from officials, and what we wanted to see from officials before we were able to commit\u2014and then we found out through the media that the Minister had done a deal with another party. And he says that we acted in bad faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281a45cead0c24e6a842da4cc8dc9dc3f\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s what happens when you have a Dutch auction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221880afb4990748d8b249cd8ee98f2207\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Paul Quinn is the master of absolutely everything, but he was not in that room. Mr Quinn was not in that negotiations room. [Interruption] No, he was not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14cd0fccb094fe6838a3cb0e8cc5190\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t need to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e99d17aa5e445c9d742ae910109f51\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: He did not need to be, because the facts do not matter to Paul Quinn. But the fact is that we were very, very close to getting a durable agreement, and the Minister walked away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f133d6b2da5646509b2c551b07e29b3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f133d6b2da5646509b2c551b07e29b3a\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002252986029357e4a93b93e07c5a62567da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252986029357e4a93b93e07c5a62567da\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Members of this House come to this Chamber today with both a privilege and an awesome responsibility. We do so because the issue of climate change, which is before us today, is the most important issue that will be dealt with by this Parliament, or, indeed, by any New Zealand Parliament. That imposes a particular standard on us, a standard of responsibility that requires us to examine our consciences and to do the right thing. I fear that the reality is that we are about to do absolutely the wrong thing. I ask the members of the Government parties\u2014National, United Future, and the M\u0101ori Party\u2014to examine their consciences and, regardless of the instructions that they come to this Chamber with, to consider again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb663d7008fe47b080c31146a5a8b1d5\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I apologise to the member for interrupting an important contribution. I have twice before raised the issue of Mr Quinn rudely chipping across the Chamber from a seat that is not his own. You have chosen to infer that he did not move for the purposes of chipping, and you have asked him to restrain himself. There is nothing particularly substantive in his interjecting\u2014it is just noise\u2014but it is very discourteous to the member speaking, who is trying to give a considered contribution to this House, and it is inciting disorder amongst my colleagues, and that is not helping the public of New Zealand to understand the arguments. I ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b97f79934c94f478203851cd061875e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I would note that Rahui Katene gave a speech only 15 minutes ago, and all the way through that speech there were rude and aggressive comments from members like Mr Cunliffe. Although I am very keen to hear what Mr Kevin Hague from the Green Party wants to say, I think there has to be some consistency. If members ask for courtesy, it should be applied to members on both sides of the debate, and not just to his side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c1674148064aadb0acb82fa3d0fb35\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the Minister\u2019s point that there has been vigorous debate in the Chamber, and that is to be expected on a bill of this nature. But there is a specific case here of a member who is not in his own seat, and the Chair has previously warned him and it has had no impact on his behaviour, which is now disorderly to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db691caa1a94f43a0a7c48d056d327d\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07538617e0841bf9d1ecbde03408fd7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need the member\u2019s assistance. I think we have at times throughout this process had quite vigorous interjections from members who have not been in their seats. The Speakers\u2019 ruling is quite specific about moving to gain an advantage. When the Chamber has fewer people in it, people tend to congregate down the front, and there is a degree of tolerance of that, but I think, generally speaking, all members of the House should be advised that it is expected that interjections be rare, reasonable, and, if possible, humorous. I ask members to have some consideration for other participants in the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226109ef56084241789eb2b92ada997b71\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member for raising that point. I was commenting on the gravity of the issue before us. I have spoken previously in the debates on other parts of the Climate Change Response (Moderating Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill about the inadequacies of this bill. The gravity of the climate change situation facing the Earth requires all Governments, all Parliaments, and all countries to do everything that is in their power to mitigate the disaster that looms. This is a bill that does not contribute to that purpose, but, rather, weakens the law that already exists. Compared with the law that already exists, this bill will result in increased emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe are debating the title of the bill, and the words \u201CModerating Emissions\u201D seem to me to be completely inappropriate for a bill of this sort. The Green Party will be introducing an amendment in the name of Dr Russel Norman to change the title of the bill to the \u201CClimate Change Response (Polluters Get Paid) Amendment Bill\u201D. He has another amendment to change it to \u201CClimate Change Response (Payday for Polluters) Amendment Bill\u201D. Both of those names would be more suitable names for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EEarlier today, a brief flame of hope flared when the news hit this House that the national council of the M\u0101ori Party was intending to meet today to reconsider its position. It seemed that, for that brief window, the M\u0101ori Party was prepared to listen to the evidence and the arguments, and to reconsider. I have to say that it was with great regret that I read the comments of Te \u014Crohi Paul dismissing that rumour as nothing more than rumour, and saying that the M\u0101ori Party was a party of integrity and a party that considered that its word was its bond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIn my intervention last evening about Part 1, I referred to a number of comments that the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party, Tariana Turia, had made in her speech in March last year in relation to emissions trading. All of those comments are totally at odds with the position that the M\u0101ori Party is now taking on this bill. I ran out of time before I was able to come to the last comment that I wished to use. It was a comment from Tariana Turia in relation to the Greens\u2019 position on that bill. What she had to say was this: \u201CA billion dollars was the price of the Green Party support for a scheme that achieves almost nothing. We predict that that $1 billion will seem like 30 pieces of silver once the full impacts of climate change start to be felt.\u201D If Te \u014Crohi Paul is correct and the M\u0101ori Party is a party of integrity, then I call on the M\u0101ori Party members to reconsider, examine their consciences, and actually consider what it is that their party stands for, because what they stand for in this debate is at odds with everything they have stood for on the issue of climate change until this debate, and it is at odds with everything they have come to this House with, and represented their members and their voters on, prior to this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI will quote from OraTaiao, one of the submitters on this bill. It is an organisation of senior health figures\u2014doctors, nurses, and other health professionals\u2014and mirrors, in fact, the global interest and urgency that the health professions are bringing to the issue of climate change. One of the things that it had to say to the select committee was this: \u201CWe submit that if passed, the bill would render the current emissions trading scheme completely ineffective, resigning it to irrelevancy. An ineffective ETS means falling between two stools for health, failing to mitigate the threats to health from climate change while introducing a regressive policy with a high economic burden on those who can least afford it. Such a policy also passes on significant costs to future generations.\u201D What OraTaiao was saying is what health professionals around the world have been saying: that the health consequences of not dealing with climate change effectively are extreme\u2014and this is a bill that proposes to increase emissions. OraTaiao enumerated many of those consequences in its submission. In particular, I want to point out that those consequences are most severe for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot in the debate from the Government about the need to balance the economy and the environment. It is very clear that it is possible to do both\u2014and the Green Party has given many examples of how\u2014and to actually have a meaningful emissions trading scheme and also a productive economy. It is with great regret that I have to say that National and the M\u0101ori Party have chosen instead to favour an economy that is based on the short-term thinking of current business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI will conclude by quoting from an editorial by Professor Hugh Montgomery in the New Zealand Medical Journal from 9 October. He says this: \u201CThere is a real danger that politicians [at Copenhagen] will be indecisive, especially in such turbulent economic times at these. Should their response be weak, the results for international health could be catastrophic. We must all act now to ensure that there is a deal, and that it is meaningful rather than fanciful. At present, voiced aspirations for large targets for 2050, or small ones for 2020, are nothing more than dangerous hot air. A weak deal will represent not an historic international agreement, but a suicide pact. Now is the time for us all to act. If not us, who? If not now, when?\u201D. That applies equally in this House today as it does in Copenhagen next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00225f0965db82194abca631fcf9c23eb80f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f0965db82194abca631fcf9c23eb80f\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise with great sadness, given the response of National and the M\u0101ori Party to what has to be the most fundamentally important issue facing the world today. We are seeing this afternoon in this Chamber a bill being passed that weakens the provisions that this country had already put in place to play our part in dealing with the issue of climate change. There is increasing evidence that the changes taking place will change the world as we know it. Many examples have been given of the consequences for human life, for human habitat, for our animals, and for the future of this planet. This is a serious issue, yet we are addressing a bill that weakens those provisions. It is environmentally irresponsible, economically inefficient, and socially inequitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI think, as have others, that this bill needs to be renamed. I have a couple of suggestions. I thought perhaps the \u201CClimate Change (Responsibility Transfer Costs from Polluters to Taxpayers) Bill\u201D might be a possibility, or the \u201CClimate Change Response (Missed Opportunity for Cross-Party Consensus) Amendment Bill\u201D, because those titles are more accurate reflections of what we are facing here today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOur response as a country should be to put in place a strong scheme to deal with emissions. Instead, we are weakening the response of the previous Government. This legislation, which modifies Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme and is being passed under urgency, is fundamentally flawed. In fact, as others have argued so cogently, it may have the perverse effect of increasing emissions, and it will undoubtedly load costs on to ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe criticisms of this bill come from all quarters. I think it is worth reflecting on some of these criticisms, although I know for certain that the Government will arrogantly dismiss them because, of course, they are right. Brian Fallow stated: \u201CThe changes agreed are all about transferring cost from the emitter to the taxpayer, and to that extent it defeats the purpose of the exercise.\u201D Greenpeace stated: \u201CWe now have on the table a pathetic ETS which won\u2019t actually do anything to reduce emissions \u2026 our emissions will just keep climbing and taxpayers, rather than polluters, will have to pay for them.\u201D Rod Oram stated: \u201CNational\u2019s changes would drive up emissions, perpetuate old technology, necessitate ever-greater subsidies and reduce New Zealand\u2019s international competitiveness and reputation.\u201D The New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development stated: \u201COverall, this proposed policy appears to greatly reduce incentives to heavy emitters to reduce emissions, increase costs of subsidies to them, slows down the timetable for reducing emissions \u2026\u201D. The Institute for Policy Studies stated: \u201CIt does not provide a path forward to decarbonise the New Zealand economy in an efficient, effective or equitable manner. It will barely reduce emissions. It imposes high costs on the economy for the benefit of a favoured few.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI repeat the phrase \u201Cfor the benefit of a favoured few\u201D, because that is what the essence of these changes is all about. It is about transferring the cost from polluters; whether they be M\u0101ori or P\u0101keh\u0101 polluters, they are having their costs transferred on to ordinary taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWhat about the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, the independent Officer of this Parliament with the role of reviewing environmental policies and actions? The commissioner commented: \u201CNew Zealand should not align itself with Australia\u2019s proposed scheme. A cap on the number of carbon credits freely allocated is vital to create the right incentives, and to reduce fiscal risk to the Government and policy uncertainty for business. The phase-out of free carbon credits is far too slow.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ECriticisms have come from every quarter, yet the Government intends to push this legislation through. National, with the support of the M\u0101ori Party, will today push this legislation through the House. The process has also been flawed. I will not go into detail, but I know that my colleagues have raised the fact that this is probably the worst process they have been engaged in in their parliamentary careers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00227dba57e1e4ef4c898d692c6607df9948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dba57e1e4ef4c898d692c6607df9948\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228da0e827e7874b5ea540f8899e6892fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000811\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Parker to clause 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000812\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause, and substitute the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000813\u0022\u003E1  Title\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000814\u0022\u003EThis Act is the Climate Change Response (Increased Emissions) Amendment Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ccdc6f4847924524912c22451a7622c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002206f1188ef9c349849aa978a7128a9f0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206f1188ef9c349849aa978a7128a9f0a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will quote Speakers\u2019 ruling 112/4 because I am going to rule out some of the amendments to clause 1. Speakers\u2019 ruling 112/4 states: \u201CAn amendment to the title of a bill must be a serious or objective description of the bill rather than an attempt to criticise its contents.\u201D In that respect I am ruling out the following amendments in the name of the Hon David Parker: to omit clause 1 and substitute \u201CThis Act is the Permanent Pollution Payments Entrenchment Bill.\u201D, to omit clause 1 and substitute \u201CThis Act is the Climate Change Response (Increased Government Debt) Amendment Bill.\u201D, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887c63471d1a44088c31142920ce814b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I appreciate that you are in the process of ruling, and it is with some hesitation that I raise this point. You have referred to a Speakers\u2019 ruling that requires your ruling to be based upon an assessment that the nature of the amendments is, first, an attempt to be pejorative, and, second, not based in fact. Now, taking as an example the one by my colleague the Hon David Parker around permanent pollution payments, the Government\u2019s own analysis indicates that there is an infinite stream of subsidies, and that the phase-out rate does not reach zero. I would submit to you that, in fact, the amendment is a perfectly accurate description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae18717dfb544b949bb3084d53c48fab\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have had plenty of time to give this matter serious consideration, and I have looked at other precedents. I am ruling out these amendments specifically because of the ruling\u2019s words \u201Ca serious or objective description\u201D. They are ruled out for that reason. Furthermore, the amendment in the name of the Hon David Parker to omit clause 1 and substitute \u201CThis Act is the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Property Rights Creation Bill.\u201D, the amendment in the name of Russel Norman to omit clause 1 and substitute \u201CThis Act is the Climate Change Response (Polluters Get Paid) Amendment Bill\u201D, and the amendment in the name of Russel Norman to omit clause 1 and substitute \u201CThis Act is the Climate Change Response (Payday for Polluters) Amendment Bill.\u201D are also ruled out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f894946c32a94afda5ff25a2f8434805\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0579b839fec4a0b974aaa773ef26e94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022877d3bf1a36d4be9b5057356b87d4948\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000818\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000819\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f95eac46bcaf4a7cb2441382344363d2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf51c792b0564eb6bc7661a4cbb47ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf51c792b0564eb6bc7661a4cbb47ebb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill is about implementing for New Zealand a workable and affordable scheme that will provide an incentive to reduce emissions and to encourage afforestation. It strikes that right balance that we need to find between protecting our environment and ensuring New Zealanders have jobs. It ensures that we do our fair share on climate change without the pretence the previous Government ran of New Zealand being carbon neutral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has actually been going round and round in circles for over a decade on trying to get a price on carbon pollution. This bill means that on 1 July next year there will be that important price on carbon as part of our package to respond to the challenge of climate change. This revised emissions trading scheme is consistent with National\u2019s commitments to the electorate. We said we would align our scheme more closely with Australia; the bill does that. We said we would provide incentives for industry to reduce emissions without encouraging an exodus of jobs and investment overseas; the bill does that. We said we would rejig the scheme to be fiscally neutral, so households, farms, and businesses would not be funding multibillion-dollar windfall gains to the Government; the bill does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIf this bill was not passed, the existing scheme would come into effect on 1 January, and it would increase power prices by 10 percent and put $400 million a year in costs on to industry. There are also no allocation plans, and there are a number of serious areas in the existing legislation that would cost jobs and do damage to the environment. This Government is not prepared to burden households and businesses with that scale of costs at this time, when we are just seeing the fragile signs of an economic recovery after the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. The scheme would have to had to be delayed until 2011 if it were not for an agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, for which I must thank them. Frankly, mokopuna in the future will thank them also. They have been constructive players and want to move New Zealand forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party brings a very balanced perspective to this debate, with both a strong commitment to Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, the environment, but also a real concern about jobs and about the impacts on low-income households and an understanding of the importance of primary industry to New Zealand. In the Opposition\u2019s criticism of the M\u0101ori Party, it has been said in one breath that this does too much for M\u0101ori, and in the next breath that it does too little. Well, both cannot be right, and I think that reflects the fact that we have come to a very fair agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the role of United Future, who have consistently\u2014not just now, but also over the last decade\u2014played a very constructive role. I particularly acknowledge the work of Peter Dunne in chairing the Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee. I also thank the very capable Craig Foss for the work he did in chairing the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I acknowledge the hard work of officials, particularly those in the climate change and risk directorate of the Ministry for the Environment, led by Stuart Calman; the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry team, led by Julie Collins; and select committee staff. I particularly acknowledge the Parliamentary Counsel Office officials, who have worked extraordinarily hard. It is interesting to me that for all the debate on the bill over the last 2 days, scrutiny of Supplementary Order Paper 98, which we have moved through the House has found not a single error. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a number of important changes to make our emissions trading scheme workable and affordable. The industrial, energy, and transport sectors will be entering the scheme on 1 July, and agriculture in 2015. There will be a transition phase for the next 3 years with a half obligation and a fixed-price option of $25 a tonne. Those changes will halve the cost increase for electricity and fuel for consumers and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to support for trade-exposed emissions-intensive industry, which I think is the most challenging dimension of climate change and emissions trading scheme policy. First, a high-intensity and medium-intensity threshold is specified. Secondly, the allocations will be based on an industry average and not on 2005 levels. That will ensure that we do not reward those that have been laggards and have had higher emissions, and punish those that have invested early in efficiency. Thirdly, the allocations will be production-based. That is as per the economic analysis that was done by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics showing that that was the most effective way to address the problem of leakage. This Government is not about exporting jobs offshore; it is about incentivising more efficient production here in New Zealand. The fourth change is about slowing the phase-out of support to industry so that it is in line with our major trading competitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere has been a nonsense claim of $110 billion worth of cost to families. Let me go through and challenge that. First, it is not a cost; it is a lower level of revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff856b17d3bd43e4a5b5cbb36f3f4ce8\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Treasury is not a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a65442454048beb84912119c9051d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The analogy I make for Mr Cunliffe, who interjected, is that if his research and development tax policy, which cost $260 million a year, was costed in the same way that he wants to cost this emissions trading scheme bill, it would cost $43 billion. That is, if we add all the years up and add all the interest, we get that sort of ridiculous figure. All the rhetoric about debt, etc. is simply a smokescreen for Labour, who fundamentally have not been able to find fault with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere has been criticism that this bill is too generous. This emissions trading scheme will be the first in place of any country outside of Europe, and it will be the most comprehensive, by including transport, industrial, and energy emissions. New Zealand is also the first country in the world to include forestry, and under these amendments, because of our unique emissions profile, it will also include agriculture. There has also been criticism of our production-based approach, which was recommended in the analysis in the Finance and Expenditure Committee review. I note that Australia is taking that intensity approach in its Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, which is expected to be passed in its Senate this week. It is also the approach that has been taken by Europe in the third phase of its emissions trading scheme. This is about incentivising efficiency, rather than just exporting emissions-intensive industries to other countries. It is true that we are making a provision in this bill to ensure that it does not snuff out the early recovery of the economy. The passing of this bill means we have an emissions trading scheme that balances environmental and economic outcomes while showing the international community that we are serious about tackling climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAfter having achieved the milestone of passing this bill, attention will have to turn to the complex intellectual job of implementing the scheme. The Government looks forward to working with industry to ensure a smooth implementation. The passing of this bill will be an important first step for New Zealand towards addressing climate change. It allows us to get on and implement an affordable and pragmatic scheme, and to play our part in addressing this global problem. I emphasis that it is a first step, and that New Zealand must remain nimble-footed with regard to agreements that may be reached internationally, to decisions that our trading partners make, and to advancements and updates in the science. Getting the emissions trading scheme up and running will be a major programme for the Government over the next year. Challenges include providing the allocations of emission units to those intensive trade-exposed companies, and that will include consultation with industry and other New Zealanders about how we calculate and implement those entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill will deliver for New Zealand a workable and affordable emissions trading scheme. I am pleased to commend this bill to the House. It is a critical and important first step in our nation\u2019s effort to do our fair share in combating climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022944dfba38d9744589e0063a5320d6abc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944dfba38d9744589e0063a5320d6abc\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We are about to pass a bill into law, the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, that is fundamentally flawed on multiple levels. It is economically irrational, socially inequitable, environmentally counter-productive, and fiscally unsustainable. Its hallmark has been one of poor procedure and hasty consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Committee stage of the bill was taken in about 8 hours under urgency. That allowed for no proper chance to remedy the defects associated with the select committee process, including the withholding by the Minister for Climate Change Issues of key aspects of the official analysis of the legislation. What is worse is that the 8 hours were completely insufficient to allow Parliament to come to terms with the two sets of amendments tabled only yesterday. One, from the Minister, was a Supplementary Order Paper of 121 pages, with at least five mistakes that I have found already in the explanatory note, which we opposed. The other one was from the M\u0101ori Party enacting a Treaty clause. We ultimately decided to support that, notwithstanding that there was no proper scrutiny allowed for those particular amendments. What is worse, National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne voted down every amendment put up by the Opposition designed to improve this bill. Having deprived the people of an adequate select committee process, those parties then prevented any real improvement being made in the later stages of the legislative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe proposed an amendment to cap overall levels of free allocation, given that the bill as it stands puts in place an uncapped intensity-based allocation model. An uncapped method allows the overall level of allocation and, therefore, emissions themselves to increase because there is no cap in the \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme. So it carries with it an extensive fiscal risk if recipients of free allocation choose to increase production. That is why the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment told Parliament that it is vital to create the right incentives to reduce fiscal risks and to create policy certainty for business. But National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne did not support this amendment, which sought to advance fiscal responsibility and environmental effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ELabour also tabled amendments to phase out free allocation to industrial and agricultural activities completely by 2030. We did this because, as the bill stands, the level and duration of allocation is excessive. Providing free allocation for more than 80 years with a phase-out rate of only 1.3 percent a year defies any common-sense idea of a transition. Even the Minister says that 1.3 percent will not survive future reviews, which begs the question of why he wishes to enact it in the first place. At this level of generosity, as with any protection or subsidy\u2014as we saw with supplementary minimum prices in the 1980s\u2014future Governments will find it very hard to roll back this level of assistance. Allocation recipients will have a very powerful incentive to maintain the status quo. National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne voted to keep these permanent pollution payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EGiven the immense costs of the levels of allocation, not just fiscally but also economically and environmentally, it is crucial that there should be transparency over how allocation takes place. But this bill reduces that transparency, so Labour sought to enhance it and put in place safeguards against corruption by requiring the details of all allocation to be published. Allocation involves the transfer of enormous amounts of wealth in the form of carbon credits from the taxpayer to individuals and firms. The taxpayer deserves to know the level of these subsidies and have a clear, analytical rationale as to why they are provided. If we do not have that transparency there will be no public trust in this scheme and there will continue to be rightly held suspicions that allocation levels are based more on politics rather than economics. Labour tried also to require any donation to a political party by a recipient of allocation to be disclosed. But National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne do not support the right of the public to know these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also tabled amendments to remove the half obligation and raise the price cap from $25 to $100 during the 2010-12 period. The half obligation is unnecessary. It shifts costs by more than half from the polluter to the taxpayer, and, despite the Minister\u2019s claims, in the electricity sector it will not reduce the impact on electricity prices. The European experience shows that it will not. What is worse is that the fixed price is set at such a low rate that it does not fulfil the purpose of any transitional price cap to provide certainty against price spikes. Any price cap should be set high enough to act as a safety valve, not just another subsidy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also sought to prohibit the banking of non-forest New Zealand units during the transition period. This would have prevented the collection of credits while the price of carbon is low and then the selling of them at a higher price once the cap is removed. Banking and trading free allocated credits, taken with price caps, will result in increased emissions and windfall gains to polluters. But National, the M\u0101ori Party and Peter Dunne did not support fixing the bill in these ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also tried to put back the entry date for agriculture from 2015 to 2013. As the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment told Parliament, there is no evidence to justify delaying the date of entry of agriculture to 2015. We can measure emissions at processor level from 2013, and emissions-reducing technologies are available, particularly in the form of nitrogen inhibitors. Delay merely keeps the full cost of emissions with the taxpayer until 2015 and postpones appropriate levels of emissions-reducing investment and proper behaviour in this sector. National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne did not support these changes, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also sought to establish a fund to reduce greenhouse gas emissions through the promotion of complementary measures. All the evidence internationally is that an emissions trading scheme can do only part of the job. There need to be robust complementary measures in place, as well. The amendment that we proposed would have provided for an annual appropriation for revenue accrued from the emissions trading scheme to promote energy efficiency, renewable energy, and research and development. We put this amendment forward because assistance provided to households beyond 2012 has been axed. This bill gets rid of the household fund in the original legislation. That fund would have provided a billion dollars of energy-efficiency assistance to low-income households over 14 years. The M\u0101ori Party traded off its abolition for a one-off $24 million scheme targeted at low-income households. Let us do the maths on that. Low-income households, many of which are M\u0101ori, will receive $976 million less in energy-efficiency assistance than they would if this amendment was not passed. National and Peter Dunne were part of that deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe bill as it stands makes highly undesirable changes to the Act in order to achieve alignment with the Australian Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, an objective that Treasury, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, a leading independent expert, and others all tell us is without any clear analytical basis, given the unique emissions profiles and industrial profiles of the two countries. The fact that the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme is still proposed only, but went through a $7 billion revision only this week in order to try to get Liberal Party support, only adds to demonstrating the incoherence of the harmonisation proposal. We proposed amendments to remove the harmonisation objective and to take out the criterion as a relevant one that the Minister should take into account when determining allocation plans. Despite this clearly being in the national interest, National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also tried to enshrine national emissions targets in law and to require the Minister to ensure that they are actually met. Targets should not simply be a matter of pious intention. The current levels, duration, and model of allocation are completely incompatible with the Government\u2019s target to reduce 1990 emissions by 50 percent by 2050. If the Government\u2019s \u201C50 by 50\u201D reduction target is anything more than a catchy slogan, the Minister should have been prepared to agree to enshrine the target into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, we proposed amendments to establish an independent advisory committee on climate change to provide advice to Ministers and promote informed public debate on the public policy response to climate change. The development of climate change policy in New Zealand has been controversial; we all know that. There is no consensus on key issues as there is, for example, in Europe. There has been insufficient independent analysis of the costs and the benefit of climate change policy initiatives. The select committee process that we have just witnessed aptly demonstrates why such an independent body is so sorely needed in this country. National, the M\u0101ori Party, and Peter Dunne opposed even these measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis bill is fundamentally flawed. As I have said previously, it will make New Zealanders poorer, our economy weaker, and our emissions increase. The amendments Labour tabled over the past day would have addressed some, but not all, of these significant deficiencies, but, like our attempts to reach a consensus with National earlier in the year, they were spurned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u002287a816ec7ee945eea43e7a2113417dce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a816ec7ee945eea43e7a2113417dce\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Barker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. The Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill was always about fulfilling New Zealand\u2019s international, environmental, and domestic obligations in a fair and balanced manner, and I am glad to speak in the third reading of this bill because that is what it will achieve. From an international perspective, this legislation will enable the Government to head to Copenhagen in a few weeks\u2019 time with a substantive framework to curb emissions and to show that New Zealand is prepared and committed to do our fair share in the fight against climate change. Indeed, this National-led Government will ensure that New Zealand stands with our international friends and neighbours as progress is made on this most significant of issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EI agree that we should be standing with our neighbours, but we need not march out ahead on our own. To do so would not make any practical improvements towards the goal of combating climate change. It may allow our Government representatives to attend future conferences with a slight feeling of moral superiority, which is a landscape the Opposition was most addicted to when in Government, but that feeling would have been built on the back of failing businesses, a struggling economy, and job losses. That is why we stand side by side with our partners and why we are aligning ourselves more closely with Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EAs I have said, this bill ensures that we do our fair share for climate change while balancing our international and environmental obligations with our domestic responsibilities. This is what New Zealanders said on 8 November last year that they wanted and this is what the National-led Government will deliver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThis is very important legislation, and the changes that National supports are designed to assist the transition into the scheme for those most affected by the changes. By extending entry dates and increasing allocations, this bill is helping to cushion the transition for existing industries and their related consumers so that they can continue to hire workers and contribute to our recovering and strengthening economy. Again, from an environmental perspective these industry and worker-friendly amendments will not negatively impact the global issue of climate change, at all, in practical terms, but they will make a big difference to thousands of New Zealanders who represent the backbone of this country\u2019s economy, the agriculture, fisheries, and energy sectors among them. Those in the agriculture sector at least will sleep a little better knowing that when this bill passes its third reading, they will now have until 2015 to prepare for their involvement in the scheme. The agricultural sector is to New Zealand what the mining industry is to Australia, and we need to ensure, more than ever in the current economic conditions, that we allow this sector to continue to thrive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThere has been a tight timetable for the progress of this bill, but, as the Hon Nick Smith pointed out, it was not only the upcoming Copenhagen talks that called for timeliness but also the fact that under the previous administration\u2019s scheme, which currently stands, consumers and businesses were about to unwrap a $400 million bill for Christmas, including a 10 percent rise in power prices, due to changes that come into effect on 1 January. That is not what New Zealand\u2019s businesses and families need; in fact, it is not what many families can handle right now. There are signs that the worst of the economic crisis is over, but the effects are still being felt and will continue to be felt for a long time. The existing legislation is not what New Zealanders want, and they said so at our general election after John Key openly proposed a moderated emissions trading scheme that acknowledged the hardships that Kiwi workers, families, and businesses are facing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThis issue is all about sustainability. It is a buzzword that has been bandied about liberally, and with good reason, but it has been overlooked in its wider application to climate change response. Policies need to achieve the goal of creating a sustainable world to live in now and for future generations, but these policies themselves need to be implemented in a way that is also politically and economically sustainable. Although the previous Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme put many measures in place towards this goal, it was a fundamentally unsustainable response because the balance was wrong. The legislation was out of touch with the people in my communities of Ruat\u014Dria and Porirua, who are already struggling to pay their escalating power bills. It also placed too many impositions on sectors of the economy that felt they were not being given enough time to come to terms with the new environment and the costs that were being demanded. To make sure that the scheme is achieving its goals in the future, there will be 5-yearly reviews to ensure that we really are dealing with a sustainable climate change response. Although we will never please everybody, I am confident that this bill will remedy and address many of the inadequacies of the current scheme and take us forward in a sustainable manner to a sustainable future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThe Treaty was signed by hap\u016B and iwi and it protected their right to manage their lands, forests, fisheries, and other taonga. This bill provides that opportunity. The Treaty created this population of people called M\u0101ori and said that they should have the gift of citizenship. The quality of that citizenship has not been all that it should have or could have been, but the opportunity to get and keep jobs because we have a strong and growing economy and to have access to warmer, drier homes are all elements that contribute to a better-quality citizenship. This bill provides for that. The Treaty provided that there would be a Government that would govern for all and balance interests for the benefit of all. This bill reflects that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EIn the end, this comes down to whether one philosophically believes in perpetual dependence on the State or the creation of wealth so that all are better off through the development of their own resources. I choose the latter. I commend the M\u0101ori Party for making the same choice, for believing in iwi and their rights and aspirations to grow their own resources, for understanding and supporting the downstream opportunities for wh\u0101nau, and for seeing the balance that has to be struck between the environmental and economic interests of our country\u2014our nation of Aotearoa New Zealand. I acknowledge and thank the Minister for Climate Change Issues, the Hon Nick Smith, and our colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228d90304a88e44784b8674333794acb0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d90304a88e44784b8674333794acb0f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I can but disagree with the last speaker, Hekia Parata. How can extending subsidies for carbon pollution until 2080, if not longer, be the road to independence and self-reliance? It is exactly the opposite. The ambition of the emissions trading scheme is to reduce New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions. That is stated in the existing legislation. It is meant to do that at the lowest possible cost to the economy by reflecting into the economy the cost that arises from the Kyoto Protocol to the New Zealand economy of increases in emissions. So, if one produces emissions, one is meant to pay for them; if one reduces emissions, one gets rewarded. That is what happens to New Zealand already under the Kyoto Protocol. The Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill undermines the effectiveness of the emissions trading scheme to do that. For those who are major emitters, the amendment pays for virtually the whole of the costs of their emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe existing scheme was already generous in the free allocation to trade-exposed industries, and that was for good reason. I think on all sides of the House we are agreed that during a transitional period when some other countries are not properly pricing emissions, it would be wrong to force major emitting industries to pay for all of the cost of their emissions, because that could make them broke. In the case of industries that could move, like the steel, aluminium, or cement industries, they could relocate to a country like China, with no environmental benefit but with an economic loss to the country. For that reason, the existing Act is already very generous in its allocation. It gives free allocation to those industries of 90 percent of their 2005 emissions\u201490 percent, not 10 percent, not 20 percent, not 50 percent, but 90 percent of their 2005 emissions. So the idea that that was not generous was always nonsense. The free allocation of that 90 percent rate was to go unabated until 2018\u2014a decade from last year, when the legislation was passed. Industries had a decade of that 90 percent allocation of 2005 emissions provided to them free\u2014a decade to adjust before it started to abate. Then it would abate at 8 percent per annum, but it would all be over by 2030. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe independent expert advising the select committee, Dr Suzi Kerr, is a pre-eminent world expert. We are very lucky to have her in New Zealand. She is not just an expert in a New Zealand context; she is so expert that she is currently a visiting professor lecturing in emissions pricing at none other than Stanford University in the United States of America. She told the select committee that the existing scheme, which had free emission rights phased out by 2030, was already, if anything, too generous to major emitters, that it was economically wrong for New Zealand to be so generous, and that we should be less generous. But this bill does the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will turn to a couple of other things. We heard Hekia Parata say that this bill saves people money on their power bills. Well, that is not necessarily true. New Zealand\u2019s power price is heavily influenced by the cost of new generation capacity. That new generation capacity cost is not changed by this short-term gift of free extra emission rights to the heavy emitters in power generation. So I proposed an amendment. I said \u201CLet\u2019s guard against double-dipping here.\u201D All that amendment said was that before major emitters in the power industry got free emissions they had to show to the Commerce Commission that the prices would have gone up but for that extra free allocation. The reason I put that amendment forward was that the experience in Europe, which we ought to have learnt from, shows that if we do not do it, power generators put up their power prices anyway and pocket the extra free allocation that they get at the cost of taxpayers. That is not fair. National and the M\u0101ori Party voted against that amendment, and it did not proceed. People now face the risk that they will get an increase in the power price when the Government is giving even more free allocation to the electricity sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will talk a little about Treaty issues. We have agreed to the Treaty clause in this legislation, which says that the Treaty principles ought to be honoured in terms of consultation around forms of regulation. I felt somewhat uncomfortable doing that, because it did not go through the normal select committee process and it was just dumped in the bill yesterday. We did not have the time to properly examine it, but we read it as thoroughly as we could within that time frame, and we thought it was fair enough so we voted for it. But we do not support this unprincipled additional free allocation to only some owners of pre-1990 forests or the land on which those forests lie. The principle that National has breached is the principle of full and final settlement in Treaty settlements. Once there is a Treaty settlement and the assets pass from the Crown to iwi, those assets\u2014and they are mainly land assets\u2014should be subject to the laws of the land. I am bound by the Income Tax Act; so are M\u0101ori iwi. I am bound by the Resource Management Act; so are M\u0101ori iwi. I am bound by the emissions trading scheme, and so should M\u0101ori iwi be. There is one exception to that: if the Government, through some duplicitous wrongdoing, hides from M\u0101oridom at the time of the settlement some undisclosed liability for future cost that undermines value, that is wrong. That would either amount to a misrepresentation by the Crown or the withholding of important information that ought to be transparently made available to the iwi in the settlement. So, again, I put up an amendment. I said, well, if there is that, yes, there should be additional compensation payable. But if they cannot show that there was withholding of information or misrepresentation then the same laws of the land should apply to all. I think it does not bode well for National nor the M\u0101ori Party that they have breached that principle. They breached it for the benefit of, let us be honest, the corporate end of town. Just as they gave money to the corporate end of town for the major emitters, they have done the same to M\u0101oridom. They have ensured a profit for a few M\u0101ori at the cost of the rest of the community, including most M\u0101ori. It is wrong, and it undermines the effectiveness of the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe cost of free allocation in the agricultural sector is plainly unsustainable. We have a scheme that purports to transition to emission pricing, but allows emissions to increase in the interim. That would be like going back 20 years in New Zealand\u2019s history; phasing out tariffs but actually increasing tariff protection while we phase them out is as stupid as that. It is as stupid as that. The best comparison I can think of is one I have already made with supplementary minimum prices. Again, it was a National Party folly\u2014that time under Mr Muldoon. The rate at which this Government is falling into debt is bad, with Government debt already spiralling out of control in New Zealand. This will add to it. Supplementary minimum prices held up land prices by artificially subsidising farm output and profitability of farms. That is what this bill does to farmers. They get more than 80 percent of the additional free allocation. In fact, I think they get more of the total free allocation; 90-something percent of the overall free allocation goes to farmers. Eventually, that will have to be withdrawn, because it is unaffordable for the country. Otherwise, Government debt will go up by $110 billion by 2050. Even if we exclude interest, the additional cost of free allocation in all sectors\u2014the vast majority of which goes to agriculture\u2014is $50 billion dollars. These are astronomical numbers\u2014$50 billion. It cannot be sustained. When that free allocation is withdrawn, farm prices will crash. People who have been farmers throughout will not be any worse off, because they have been farmers throughout. The people who buy farms in the next 20 years will do their dough. They will do their dough, and they will be poorer. They will suffer as people suffered in the 1980s following the removal of supplementary minimum prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis bill is fundamentally flawed legislation. It undermines the environmental outcome. Our emissions will go up relative to where they would have been under the existing scheme. As Brian Fallow said, the point at which New Zealand\u2019s emissions peak will be later, and the amount that they peak at will be higher before they decline. That will be at an environmental cost to the planet and at an economic cost to the country. It is not just me saying that: it is Treasury, it is the Ministry of Economic Development, it is the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and it is the expert advisor to the committee, Dr Suzi Kerr\u2014it is virtually everyone. And still the Government proceeds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022589206509ca94a11b2d9b7f5d16e7c04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022589206509ca94a11b2d9b7f5d16e7c04\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak on behalf of the Green Party on the third reading of the Government\u2019s amendments to the existing emissions trading scheme in the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. One of the interesting points that I think is often forgotten in this debate is that people think if we muck it up now, we can somehow fix things up later. The problem with greenhouse gas emissions and particularly carbon dioxide is that they pretty much last forever. A great proportion of the carbon dioxide that is emitted today will be around in several thousand years\u2019 time. Carbon dioxide does not break down quickly but builds up in the atmosphere. It means that every year we increase our emissions we increase the stock of greenhouse emissions in the atmosphere. It is not that simple to get it out of the atmosphere again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIf we want to reduce the level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere below a level that we think is safe, say 350 parts per million carbon dioxide equivalent, it means the curve to reduce the level in the atmosphere\u2014the emissions curve that we have to go down\u2014gets steeper and steeper every year we increase our emissions into the atmosphere. There is no free lunch here. We cannot say that today we are not going to address our greenhouse emissions because we can deal with them later. Actually, we cannot. The emissions that go out today will add to the stock in the atmosphere and increase the problem for everybody on planet Earth for the next couple of thousand years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we remember what this is all about. This is supposed to be a bill to reduce greenhouse emissions in order to reduce the risk of out-of-control climate change. That is what the purpose of this bill was supposed to be. My colleague Sue Kedgley described it as Orwellian, and in a way she is absolutely right. It is Orwellian in the sense that this is a bill that says it is about reducing emissions, but it does not. The result of passing the bill through this Parliament this afternoon will mean that there are more greenhouse emissions coming out of New Zealand than there would have been otherwise. That is just a fundamental truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is also important to talk about the current emissions trading scheme. The emissions trading scheme that exists now is not a great scheme. The Green Party supported it reluctantly because, as David Parker said earlier, the scheme already had very, very high levels of allocations and subsidies to emitters. It was not what the Green Party wanted. It was not our ideal emissions trading scheme, because the level of subsidies was far too high. However, we supported it in order to get the beginnings of a price on carbon and because of the complementary measures that came with it, in particular the billion-dollar home insulation fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is also true that the previous Government\u2019s record in reducing greenhouse emissions was terrible. Emissions increased very significantly from 1999 to 2008, so we were pleased that there was some progress towards the end of that Government, in terms of addressing greenhouse emissions and climate change, but there was still a long way to go. Let us remember that the scheme did not cap emissions. It capped free allocations, which was good, but it did not cap emissions. It meant that people on the margin were paying the real price, but emissions within New Zealand were not capped. It worked within the global Kyoto system. The amended emissions trading scheme, by comparison, not only does not cap emissions in New Zealand but also does not cap free allocations, which is quite extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI was just reading an article by Geoff Keey, who works for Greenpeace and has been at a lot of the international negotiations. When he described the new emissions trading scheme to some of the people he has been meeting at international negotiations, they said: \u201CBut that just means New Zealand\u2019s emissions can keep increasing and increasing.\u201D, which of course is exactly what it means. If we reduce the price signal, we get more emissions. The fundamental idea of an emissions trading scheme, the idea that the whole thing is based on, is that price influences behaviour. When this emissions trading scheme reduces the price, it will influence behaviour. The result will be more emissions. That is a simple fact about all emissions trading schemes and it is a fact that the Minister for Climate Change Issues tries to deny over and over, but in the House the other day we pinned him on it. He does not like to admit the simple fact that emissions trading schemes work on the idea that carbon pricing over time reduces emissions, so if we have a lower price we will have higher emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is incredible to think that because the rate of abatement of the free allocations is only 1.3 percent per year, it means that if an industry increases its output, and it is output linked to emissions, at more than 1.3 percent per year, it will get more free allocations every year. That is an extraordinary thing. The taxpayer will be handing over more free allocations every year if an industry increases its output by more than 1.3 percent. For example, DairyNZ tells us that over the previous 10 years the dairy industry increased its output by, on average, 4.4 percent per year. This means that the taxpayer will be increasing the allocation of free carbon credits, which costs money because ultimately the taxpayer has to pay for them, to the dairy sector every year. The subsidy from the taxpayers to the dairy sector will increase year on year. It is uncapped. It is most extraordinary that here we are today, in a world where we are trying to reduce our greenhouse emissions, and this Parliament is about to vote for a bill that will increase the free allocation to the dairy sector and others as they increase their emissions and their output. It is an extraordinarily stupid thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe other part of it that I think is a real worry, aside from the difficulty of getting carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere once we put it up there and the steepness of the abatement curve we will have to go down in order to get anywhere near reducing our emissions by the amount we need to, is the political problem that has been alluded to in this debate. Because this bill sets in place a whole bunch of give-aways to friends of the Government and others in the form of free allocations, it will be very hard to roll it back politically. There is a particular problem in Australia. The Australian Greens produced a legal opinion that shows that because these rights to pollute are considered property rights under the Australian Federal constitution, it will be even more difficult in Australia. We have the same problem here in terms of trying to roll back these rights to pollute, as they will be seen by the recipients, once this Government hands them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe have a further complicating problem about the binding nature of this scheme, which is the bilateral investment treaties that we are signing left, right, and centre at the moment. These are otherwise known as free-trade treaties, but a big component of them is investment treaties. The bilateral investment treaties mean that foreign companies operating in New Zealand will be able to sue the New Zealand Government for indirect expropriation if we change the rules around emissions trading schemes. In fact, if we look at the Cabinet paper that went with this bill, we see that when they talk about why it is that forestry credits have to be tradable internationally, part of the reason they give is the bilateral investment treaties that bind us currently and the fact that if we were to place restrictions on the international trade of those credits, we could be sued under those bilateral investment treaties by overseas-owned forestry companies. We have this problem around the binding nature of what we are about to do and how we are committing future generations to a very expensive process of trying to unravel the bill we are about to pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EPart of the idea of an emissions trading scheme is to facilitate the transition to a low-carbon economy. One of the things that has been most extraordinary about the process is that we have not had any time to read all the advice we have been getting. For example, Suzi Kerr, senior fellow at the Motu Economic and Public Policy Research Trust and visiting professor at Stanford University Economics Department, gave us her advice right on the very last day at the select committee and of course absolutely canned the bill, as anyone who knows anything about emissions trading has. To quote from her report: \u201CFree allocation redistributes the cost of climate policy away from the owners of protected firms, who tend to have higher than average incomes, towards all taxpayers.\u201D\u2014M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, I would add. \u201CIt also significantly raises the overall cost of the climate policy to the economy. A policy that is fiscally neutral can still have large damaging effects on the parts of the economy and society that do not receive free allocation.\u201D We are passing legislation that is damaging to the New Zealand economy in the long run. Treasury estimates that the cost of putting out all these free allocations, including interest and looking at a price of $50 a tonne, will cost the New Zealand Government around $110 billion by mid-century, and that cost has to be borne. It also results in a misallocation of resources within the New Zealand economy because we are not as efficient as we should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhat is missing with all of this is all the complementary measures that should have gone alongside an emissions trading scheme, whether it be fuel-efficiency standards; pest control on Department of Conservation land; measures to promote public transport, walking, and cycling; or a reduction in the spending on motorways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa846645348549ada2d9b383862681c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa846645348549ada2d9b383862681c2\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E When I was speaking in the second reading of this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, I remarked that it was a joy to work with a party like the National Party. I want to expand on those remarks now. The M\u0101ori Party has been very impressed throughout the negotiations over this bill by the clear vision of the Minister for Climate Change Issues, and by the good faith shown by both him and the Government in general. It has been a blueprint for a mana-enhancing relationship, and I thank the Minister and the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party came to this bill with a clear and comprehensive focus on outcomes for our wh\u0101nau, our whenua, the Treaty, and the M\u0101ori economy. It has been a focus that has sustained our strength, despite the bitter opposition of others in this House who prefer to rely on the worn-out rhetoric of tired campaigners. The nation has observed a vitriolic attack against tangata whenua from the surprise new bedfellows, the Labour Party and the ACT Party. We have heard Labour leader, Phil Goff, describe the scheme as benefiting only a handful of iwi. David Cunliffe added insult to injury by describing the arrangements as being about beads and blankets. We have heard Shane Jones talking of deceit and treachery, and describing the emissions trading scheme as having sold out low-income M\u0101ori families \u201Cto protect a narrow privileged southern elite\u201D. As member for Te Tai Tonga I have to tell the House that the latter comment has been interpreted by our iwi throughout Te Wai Pounamu as being particularly offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI refer any members who have the view that iwi are somehow removed from their people to the vision of Ng\u0101i Tahu, which is, most simply: m\u014D t\u0101tou, \u0101, m\u014D k\u0101 uri \u0101 muri ake nei, for us and our children after us. Ng\u0101i Tahu has a proud history of creative endeavour to ensure that our wh\u0101nui are culturally enriched, live long, and live well, and that Ng\u0101i Tahu Wh\u0101nui lead the future. To suggest that our iwi are a privileged elite, when the very definition of iwi is a collective of wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B, is both ridiculous and insulting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EACT leader Rodney Hide referred to the emissions trading scheme negotiations as a backroom deal. He said that full and final settlement should not be relitigated, and made a huge issue about the final wording of the Treaty clause being, in his assessment, concluded only 18 minutes before its announcement. M\u0101ori have had enough of being told that their capacity to negotiate arrangements is about special privileges or race-based politics, that their numbers are too small or too narrow, or that they did not follow the time frame that others had set for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn case this House has forgotten, the M\u0101ori asset base contributes $16.5 billion to our economy. This money stays in New Zealand, and will continue to grow over generations to come. M\u0101ori are stakeholders. They are taxpayers. They are business people. They are entrepreneurs. The M\u0101ori Party has been proud to support their initiative. The M\u0101ori economy has unique characteristics. It is rapidly growing in response to being locked into underdevelopment, over history. We want to support the growing billions of dollars of contributions per annum to the New Zealand economy, and that was one part of the package we successfully negotiated in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EUnder the previous scheme, the M\u0101ori economy took a hammering from being concentrated in all the areas most affected by the scheme\u2014forestry, fishing, and farming. What we have achieved in this emissions trading scheme is the commitment that the Government will work with all iwi on indigenous tree planting, in addition to the specific agreement with Waikato Tainui, Ng\u0101i Tahu, Te Uri o Hau, Ng\u0101ti Awa, and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa ki Kawerau that has resulted from the Crown\u2019s breach of contract with those iwi. I remind those who have overlooked the record that this is a breach dating back to 1998, when a Government failed to disclose in its negotiations with iwi the fact that a domestic emissions trading scheme was inevitable, and the effects it would have on forested land. The ability of iwi to make an informed choice about its purchase of Crown forest lands with settlement monies was therefore impaired. The bill today finally rectifies that wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt is important that we have indigenous forests grown by New Zealanders, and that iwi are part of the carbon market. The M\u0101ori Party will never stand in the way of iwi initiative. I note, too, that the intention of the climate change Iwi Leadership Group was always to lock down a solution for the iwi interests that are represented in this bill, and then to work for and advocate a solution for all pre-1990 exotic forests. Those negotiations have already begun with other pre-1990 exotic forest landowners and the New Zealand Forest Owners Association. The fisheries sector does better under this scheme, by its ensuring that New Zealand owners of quota, instead of vessel owners, receive allocation. The agricultural sector will also be supported by a number of research and uptake-work programmes, to support the sector to transition into more environmentally sustainable practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EBut this emissions trading scheme was never about economic drivers on their own. M\u0101ori Party policy has always made it clear that our whenua is the most important inheritance that we will leave to our mokopuna. Our commitment to kaitiakitanga is all-enduring, and reflects the importance that our people place on the whenua. This emissions trading scheme is only a small part of the environmental efforts we need, and we should never expect that any one bill will address the major mind shift we need. We have always said that climate change is our collective responsibility. A trading scheme will never be a complete answer to climate change, but we have done what we could to make the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EOur environment has needs, and New Zealanders expect our environment to be protected, because it is part of our national identity. We have advocated on behalf of the environment for trees to be planted and for biodiversity to be valued. The truth is that as a country we pride ourselves on the pristine state of our whenua but in reality our practices do not meet our reputation. The M\u0101ori Party negotiated to get indigenous trees planted, and our environment valued, as part of our common inheritance as New Zealanders. Native trees will mean more native species in New Zealand, owned by Kiwis, as well as a reduction in our Kyoto bill. Five iwi will now have the right to plant indigenous trees. The benefit and the ownership will stay in New Zealand, and all our mokopuna will be able to enjoy more native forest. It has been disappointing that so little attention has been allocated to the national policy statement on biodiversity, which we have known is long overdue. The national policy statement is one way of recognising nationally important ecology, and helping district councils to protect it more efficiently and effectively. We are also pleased that the review of the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative will increase the incentives for all landowners to plant trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EOne of the overarching priorities for us, however, has always been he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. We brought to the table the fact that lower-income households would be exposed by the emissions trading scheme, and we negotiated a package to protect their interests. We want to see that all wh\u0101nau in need get home insulation, and so we are delighted that there will be $24 million in new money to insulate homes. Home insulation is important, because it brings power prices down and improves health outcomes. This fund, and the significant reductions in power and petrol prices, will achieve immediate and long-term contributions to the health and well-being of vulnerable households, and we are proud of that. We have also managed to reinstate the Enviroschools programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EFinally, we recognise that the Treaty of Waitangi is about doing what is right. It will also deliver greater certainty and stability to the emissions trading scheme. We have negotiated a Treaty clause to give effect to the Treaty, so that iwi will continue to be involved in this scheme. Many of the details of the scheme will come through regulations, and it is important that our people are part of working through those details. There are many challenges ahead of us all. All of us, as members of the public, can encourage emitters to decrease emissions. Public pressure can be a formidable force. All of us can commit to collective action against climate change, and all of us can make the commitment for an open, constructive, and respectful relationship with tangata whenua. We are proud to vote in support of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002223a7be0b6f8348b0865ed422a6b1ced7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223a7be0b6f8348b0865ed422a6b1ced7\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party opposes the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill, and will be voting with the Green Party and the Labour Party against it. One of the privileges of coming to Parliament is that one works with many different people from both sides of the House. Our position is different from that of the M\u0101ori Party, but I regard it as a privilege to have worked with Rahui Katene over the last 12 months on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, both on its deliberations on the emissions trading scheme and on that select committee generally. I am sorry if she takes exception to the comments made by Rodney Hide earlier today, but he was simply reiterating what the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, Pita Sharples, had told the Wellington Regional Chamber of Commerce at a breakfast just yesterday. It was, indeed, Pita Sharples who said that the M\u0101ori Party was advised that agreement had been reached just 18 minutes before this deal was announced. That was at 12 minutes past 3 on Monday. Those were the words that Pita Sharples said to the people at the Wellington Regional Chamber of Commerce breakfast yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThis has been a reckless process. We have discussed that at length. It gave me no pleasure whatsoever to vote against the National members on this bill. At the select committee Rahui Katene, the Green Party, Labour, and I voted to allow those submitters who had something substantial to say to have the right to say it. We voted for their right to say it, and that vote was won by 7 votes to 5. Five National members were defeated in that vote, and I give some advice to those members and to the new backbenchers, in particular: losing a vote is an unpleasant experience, and they run the real risk, following the 2011 election, that it will happen a lot more frequently if they are in Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI now turn to the issue of the $110 billion. This issue was seized upon by the Labour Opposition to discredit this bill. The bill had to be discredited, but to quote the $110 billion was the wrong way to do it, because there are many other ways that one can discredit this bill without misrepresenting the facts. The Minister for Climate Change Issues, the Hon Dr Smith, is quite right. Essentially, the way the emissions trading scheme operates is that New Zealand receives an allocation of emissions units based on our historical emissions. We do not know what that allocation will be post-2012, but given that an agreement comes out of Copenhagen or subsequent negotiations, we will be given a target to reduce our emissions, and we will be given an allocation of units. That allocation of units will be based on what our historical experience has been; it will be some percentage of our historical experience. That allocation will continue for a number of years\u2014well beyond 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EUnder the Labour scheme, the allocation of those units was to be reduced to zero in respect of all sectors by 2030. So at that stage New Zealand would have had surplus units and would have been able to sell those units to emitters. Essentially, it amounted to a huge tax scam, and I think Dr Smith talked about the Government receiving a lesser amount of revenue\u2014those were the words that Dr Smith referred to\u2014under the National scheme. Under the Labour scheme, it is a fact that the Government was going to earn windfall gains of $2 billion a year from 2030. Accumulating those gains through to 2050 would have resulted in a massive tax windfall of something like $50 billion. The Labour Opposition, trying to seize upon that to discredit the scheme, used compound interest to take the figure to $110 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the Labour members focused on the fact that that took the projected deficit from 8 percent of GDP to 15 percent of GDP. They may well have ignored the fact that just 3 or 4 weeks ago Treasury made projections that took New Zealand\u2019s debt out not to 15 percent of GDP but to 220 percent of GDP\u201410 times the figure that the Labour Opposition has waxed lyrical about over the last 3 or 4 days. The reason that New Zealand\u2019s debt is projected out to 220 percent of GDP is the result of the massive failed policies of 9 years of Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI could not believe it when Hekia Parata talked about her constituents in Gisborne and Porirua. She said they were already struggling to pay their power bills. Well, I ask Hekia Parata and all the members of this House what we will achieve by artificially increasing the price of electricity for every New Zealander by 10 percent from 1 January 2013, when it does not cost the companies that sell that electricity, in respect of hydroelectricity, anything more to produce. We are giving them a windfall gain of some $200 million or $300 million. I have made that claim 3 or 4 times today, and it has not been refuted by anyone. Why is that? It is because it is true. It applied under Labour\u2019s scheme; it continues to apply under National\u2019s scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ERahui Katene talked earlier about the savings in electricity and petrol. She talked about the longer-term contributions they would make. Those contributions expire on 31 December 2012, so if Rahui Katene was talking about the savings in electricity for a period of 3 years, I wish her luck, but I got the impression that she was talking about the situation longer term, and there are no savings there. All of the members in this House have condoned a tax on every New Zealander in respect of one of the most basic commodities: electricity. It is little wonder that the M\u0101ori Council is railing against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, which said this bill represented the greatest confiscation of M\u0101ori wealth since the 1800s. I will explain why that is so. It is because M\u0101ori have many thousands of hectares of forest land that could be converted into pasture. Trees could be felled and we could convert that land into pasture and dairy farms, and we could create some wealth for New Zealand. And if we created some wealth for New Zealand, we would actually set about reducing that projected deficit that Treasury makes of 220 percent of GDP down to something much more manageable. But the M\u0101ori foresters who have that land are denied that opportunity under the emissions trading scheme, because if they fell the trees and convert that land into pastoral land to create greater wealth for New Zealanders, they are faced with a penalty of some $20,000 a hectare, which makes it inefficient to do so. So in the absence of a change of approach in Copenhagen or subsequent agreements, doing that will be inefficient because those foresters will be taxed, and there will be a massive devaluation of M\u0101ori forest land. It would have happened under the Labour scheme, and that has not been fixed under National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ERahui Katene talked about how M\u0101ori will do by having the free emissions units allocated to quota holders as opposed to fishers. I accept that, but I explain to this House, to all M\u0101ori, and to all New Zealanders that that will apply only up until 31 December 2012. Why is that? Because there is no free allocation from 2013 onwards. The farmers get it, and we can be thankful that both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori farmers will continue to get an allocation of free units well into this century. But fishers will not. The fishing industry is trade-exposed, and it is energy-intensive. The Minister for Climate Change Issues knows that, because when he was in Opposition he wrote about that in his own National Party minority report just on 1 year ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI sat up in the gallery 2 years ago and listened to the debate on the Electoral Finance Bill, knowing that the Labour Government was going to vote into law a totally undemocratic change. Nothing can be more frustrating than speaking against this bill, highlighting its deficiencies, and knowing that in a very short time exactly the same thing will happen, but it will be done by the National Government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5a77f1d30b84f9aa2729cc9bbfed7c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5a77f1d30b84f9aa2729cc9bbfed7c8\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I congratulate Minister Smith on getting the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill to its third reading, and on all the work that has been done, both in the previous review committee and in the Finance and Expenditure Committee when the previous work came through from, I think, 2007. We all learnt a lot, and there has been a lot of good information for members to rest on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI need to pick up a couple of points that the previous speaker, John Boscawen, made. He missed a key point when he talked about submissions. I tell that member that the only instruction I took about the number of submissions to be heard was an instruction from the committee. Actually, the member is right: there was a vote. The member said \u201Csubstantive submissions\u201D, but he is wrong. I tried to get the word \u201Csubstantive\u201D and the word \u201Cmaterial\u201D in there; that was missed by certain members. Thus, all those submitters who wanted to be heard were heard. That is absolutely fine, but speakers should not try to put heat on me, because I could produce lists of submissions that various members wanted to hear, and some of the stuff that is coming back is very cute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAnyway, let us put that aside. The Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill is a very, very good response. It is a response to the will of the electorate, because the National Party put this issue before the electorate before the 2008 election. We laid out our principles: having intensity without a cap, aligning with our partners, keeping an eye on our competition, balancing a scheme with our economy\u2014you name it. I think most members acknowledge that we cannot look after our environment if we are not looking after our economy. Some parties, I think, would like to address only one side of that equation, but their members get on jet aircraft, use the Internet, and globalise all sorts of things, which seems to be contrary to every other speech they make. But I digress a bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill is a response to climate change. It is a balanced response and it is a good legislative response. What seems to be missed is that on probably 80 to 85 percent of the points we and the other major party in this House are in general agreement. Some details about 5 or 7 years out are actually the key points. Some members are making more politics of this than others; I do not know what they will talk about once this bill is passed. This bill is also a good response to the recession that New Zealand finds itself in\u2014not only the economic conditions this new Government inherited but also the recession that the whole globe is in at the moment. It looks as if we are possibly coming out of it, so what Government would do anything to put New Zealand back into recession? What Government would do anything to impose higher input costs and a burden on households in a recession, when it looks as if we just might be coming out of that recession? But with the fiscal record of the previous administration, I am not surprised that they seem to be taking off down that track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very good response to the New Zealand economy\u2014to our profile and to our trade-exposed economy. We are an exporting economy, so we want to be exporting goods and services, and getting funds back into the country. We do not want to be exporting jobs, factories, and our kids\u2019 futures to the rest of the world, to pollute somewhere else in the world, to the detriment of the future of this country. It is interesting that not one member on the other side, when they got up and talked about children, etc., raised that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of things I cannot let go. I fiscally embarrassed the members on the other side. I ask them just to be consistent. The $110 billion figure keeps coming up. As Minister Smith said earlier, we will now apply the logic that seems to have been adopted by members on the other side, including their leader. If he wants to earn his stripes, he should not go down this path, because on every single spending announcement made by Opposition speakers from now until the next election we will price the figure up and compound it at whatever the cost of capital is at the time. Members should just watch the figures blow out\u2014the decade of deficits we inherited is about to blow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will wrap up with one particular point that I found very offensive today. I am so surprised about what some members have said. I am really offended; they could have said much of what they were trying to say in different language. Quite frankly, I am disgusted by the term \u201Cbrownwash\u201D, which the Green Party has been using. I am disgusted by the term, and by its implications and insinuations of trinkets, beads, and blankets in exchange for an arrangement National has with one of its coalition partners. Sure, members can make their political points, but they should not go down that line. If anyone ever said that of them, they would be the first to go off to the Race Relations Commissioner, so members should not go down that line. That phrase says so much more about their true selves and where they really stand. Now members seem to be backing away from the term, but it is on the record. Its use was absolutely disgraceful\u2014absolutely disgraceful. [Interruption] This member did not use the terms that those members used during the debate, or the term that that member over there used during question time. I think members should just taihoa, look in the mirror, and look at the rest of their caucus, and they may see that many of them are very, very offended by some of that language. I respect members\u2019 points of view; I do not respect\u2014and I am totally offended by\u2014some of the language that was used by some members in this House today in and around this bill. I think I have made my point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI thank the Minister for Climate Change Issues, I thank the officials, and I thank the other members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d413e45cc27a4463a4b444da26b6816c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d413e45cc27a4463a4b444da26b6816c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge Craig Foss, the member who has just resumed his seat, who is the chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which considered this bill. I acknowledge all members who have contributed to this debate, on all sides of the House. More than many debates, this debate has been a multi-sided debate. I particularly acknowledge Charles Chauvel, Labour\u2019s spokesperson on climate change, who, I think, has done a sterling job in bringing forward a range of facts for the public\u2019s consideration, and David Parker, the previous climate change Minister, and the current Minister, Nick Smith, who has been prepared to debate with other colleagues the pros and cons of this bill, and who has made a contribution in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHaving said that, it is with both great sadness and, I guess, a slow-burning kind of anger that I rise to speak in the third reading debate. This debate is the bottom of the third innings\u2014the time to sum up the various arguments, if you like\u2014and this is where we try to draw together the threads so that the public can make sense of the debate when they look back, in the future. My sadness comes, as I have repeated several times, because this bill bequeaths to our children a harder problem than we inherited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill is fundamentally flawed. It will make New Zealanders poorer, it will make our economy weaker, and it will increase greenhouse gas emissions relative to the law that was on our books before we started the debate. Of course, the bill locks in subsidies and condones the proposition that we have created property rights to pollute, which is a precedent that this House will come to regret. My anger, I think, comes because National\u2019s conduct over climate change policy has been, I am afraid to say, both sneaky and shambolic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee process has been the worst I have ever seen. It was nothing short of a travesty, which is all the more ironic because the substance of this bill is crucial to the future of our country and our planet. Official information was withheld from the committee process. Only a minority of public submissions were heard, and then only after much debate. There was no clause-by-clause departmental analysis. There was a regulatory impact analysis that Treasury described as inadequate. There was no revision-tracked bill, because there was not time. There was no supplementary economic analysis, no sensitivity testing, and no justification of the numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe result is, I am afraid to say, a \u201CNick Smith shambles\u201D of the very worst kind. We are left with a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system with no cap, and intensity-based emissions subsidies that are, effectively, infinite and will cost $110 billion, including compounding interest, by 2050\u2014in other words, an extra 17 percent of Crown debt, which effectively doubles the total amount of debt that this Government inherited at the time it took office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat is wrong with the bill that has led us to this conclusion? There is almost too much to cover, but let me offer a few potted highlights. The essential and obvious flaw is that the bill is so generous to large emitters in industry and agriculture that it shields them from the very incentives they need in order to be able to plan with certainty an adjustment path that would lead New Zealand into a low-carbon future at the least cost. By succumbing to lobbying pressure, the Government has neutralised the very point of the exercise from its inception. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBig industrial emitters already received a generous 90 percent free allocation and a 10-year window before abatement commenced at 8 percent per annum under Labour\u2019s legislation, and this Government has made that even more generous. Now big emitters will have a two-for-one lead-in deal for the first 2 years, and an artificially low carbon price of $25 a tonne. Carbon is trading at about $40 a tonne at the moment, I am told, so the taxpayer will wear the risk and cost of the difference. There is no cap in the \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system globally; there is, instead, an open-ended, intensity-based system that subsidises the worst polluters the most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are inappropriately placed, arbitrary deals that provide windfall gains to people who cannot control the emissions. In fisheries the allocation is to the quota holder, not to the fisher, who is in the position to make the decision at the margin about how much fuel to use. It does not go to the farmer, who is able to decide what feed to use or what strain of animal to run, but to the processor, who is removed from the decision point. Of course, at the end of the day there has been a refusal from the Government to negotiate in good faith, either prior to when the bill was introduced in the House or when it was going through the House, and not one single constructive amendment from the Opposition has been accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat is the effect of this sorry tale? Well, these are the facts: the Sustainability Council says that actual emission reductions will be only half what they would have been under the existing Labour scheme. Large industry makes up 13 percent of the emissions and now faces only 1 percent of the cost. By contrast, the activities of people in small businesses, many of whom voted for National at the last election, make up 11 percent of the emissions, and those people will face 38 percent of the cost because they cannot lobby as much or as well. Agriculture makes up 49 percent of the emissions, but it now faces only 3 percent of the cost. Total fiscal cost on agreed carbon price paths, which is now bipartisan, is between $50 billion and $110 billion by 2050.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246a5f02982e945549d608a159db4bb43\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234871e8f7e1248b0931cb4e0372486b0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, those are Treasury numbers, I tell the Minister. I do believe it, and so does he. The only argument that remains is whether to include the compounding effect. That may be arguable, but at the end of the day, even $50 billion is a big, big number, and it will affect our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bottom line is that polluters gain and New Zealanders pay. They pay through their taxes, through forgone debt reduction, tax relief, or alternative expenditure as well as, at worst, through paying charges through an international carbon system. This is not balanced nor affordable, and it is neither environmentally nor fiscally sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Government has put forward some fiscal counterarguments. The first is that it is not really debt. Well, yes, it is. Provided that one is carrying any debt at all, then one faces an opportunity cost of reducing that debt, purchasing other essential services, or adapting to climate change. In plain English, it is like when we have a mortgage and a credit card bill, and we have income that we could use either to pay down our credit card or, if we are not using our credit card, pay our mortgage. This is a carbon credit card that prevents us from reducing our national mortgage by 17 percent of GDP by 2050, and that is huge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Government is prepared to accept Treasury\u2019s advice at face value on the long-term fiscal outlook, but it is not prepared to accept the Treasury\u2019s equivalent criticism of this bill, because, as the Minister of Finance has said: \u201CGood advice is that which we agree with. Bad advice is that which we do not agree with.\u201D That is devoid of integrity, and it is no way in which to make good decisions. The second argument is that it does not matter anyway\u2014that is Nick Smith\u2019s favourite. He says that it does not matter whether it is a 1.5 percent abatement or an 8 percent abatement, because it will be reviewed every 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBusiness is crying out for certainty. Business people want a bipartisan agreement. They need to plan their affairs. That is why it does not help them for the Minister to artificially have a 1.3 percent abatement now but frighten them by saying that he will change his mind in 5 years\u2019 time. That is a worst-case outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe final argument is that New Zealand is already out in front. Fifty percent by 2050 will not be out in front at Copenhagen. In any case, independent authorities\u2014including the statutory authority on that matter, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014have stated on the record that even if one accepted the target, there is no conceivable way that this bill can achieve it. Even if one accepts every other argument that the Government has made, the mechanics of this bill fail to deliver even the Government\u2019s own outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe lessons of this process are that no Treaty settlement is now final. In Rajen Prasad\u2019s day as Race Relations Commissioner, he and his team worked hard to get the citizens of New Zealand to accept the Treaty process as final. It is no longer final, because Pandora\u2019s box has been opened, for $24 million - odd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5438b64ebc14db8818a1dbe650749c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5438b64ebc14db8818a1dbe650749c2\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I support the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill because it is a common-sense response to an enormously difficult problem. After a couple of decades of debate, discussion, and policy making, and after three select committee processes, we finally have a practical and workable way to deal with New Zealand\u2019s emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI thank Rahui Katene for her comments this afternoon. The M\u0101ori Party is a valuable and respected part of our Government, and we enjoy working with it. I am also pleased that our Government has been able to sort out Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s Treaty issues. We have come up with an intelligent solution\u2014an intelligent solution culturally, an intelligent solution environmentally, and an intelligent solution economically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealanders are very aware of and love our natural environment, many of them have little capacity to financially contribute towards managing climate change, particularly right now, at a time of financial turmoil and recession. So for the first 3 years of this scheme, as Kiwis learn better ways in which to deal with carbon emissions, the bill will halve the costs for businesses and households. Labour\u2019s scheme put a price on households of approximately $6 per week; National\u2019s scheme will cost households about $3 per week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBut the long-term motivation is to encourage all New Zealanders to embrace a low-carbon lifestyle and to modify their behaviour accordingly. The carbon charges will be a reminder and a stimulant for lower carbon use. Just as we saw a slow-down in the use of cars when petrol prices went up, we expect the carbon charge to help people make better transport choices. To mitigate the increased costs of energy, we have introduced the $323 million Warm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart home insulation scheme, which has already, within its first 6 months, insulated over 20,000 homes. Adding to that funding the provision for another 8,000 low-income homes will mean that nearly 200,000 homes will be insulated within the next 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWe are also making significant changes around industry allocation, so that industry allocations are production-based and more closely aligned with the approaches of other countries, particularly Australia. We do not want to cripple industries by making them uncompetitive with our trading partners. We need to challenge our businesses and organisations to embrace change and embrace new, cleaner technologies, but the key to this legislation is to support vulnerable, trade-exposed businesses and to ensure that they, and the jobs that they provide, survive as the world transitions towards a lower-carbon economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI have already discussed in earlier debates the lack of accurate information, the partial information, and the misinformation around this bill. Sadly, we are still hearing it from the Opposition. I am prepared to accept faulty arguments when they are based on ignorance, but there is no excuse for deliberately misleading the public. That is not right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I reiterate five points about this bill. First, the bill will ensure that New Zealand does its fair share in tackling the problem of global climate change. Second, there is no taxpayer subsidy. Free international carbon credits that are allocated to New Zealand will be passed on to trade-exposed and emission-intensive industries. They will be used as they were designed to be: to support businesses to remain competitive internationally and to continue to provide jobs. The Minister for Climate Change Issues has already assured New Zealanders that the National Government will not be purchasing carbon credits to allocate to industry. Third, the scheme will be fiscally neutral. There will be no windfall profits for the Government, but also no long-term debt for the New Zealand public. Fourth, the legislation is flexible. The first review is scheduled for 2011, and then every 5 years thereafter. In the face of international uncertainty and ongoing change, flexible legislation is the key to a good outcome for New Zealand. Fifth, this bill is the culmination of decades of discussion, debate, research, and policy making. With the exception of ACT, everyone in this House agrees that we need to take action to deal with climate change, and that an emissions trading scheme is a reasonable way to go. The debate is only around the details. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It is workable, and it is an affordable piece of legislation. It is high time that it was passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00228bce0558c19b4e34aa37e1649f9d32a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bce0558c19b4e34aa37e1649f9d32a2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very, very sad day for this House, and this is a very sad day for a Minister who once used to tout his blue-green credentials, but Dr Nick Smith will for ever go down in history as the man who put in place climate change legislation that damaged New Zealand\u2019s economy, weakened our position with our trading partners overseas, and had no environmental credibility whatsoever. He will go down in history as the man who came into this House as a proud blue-green National Party member, and will exit his role as Minister for Climate Change Issues by being known for putting together and passing legislation that makes New Zealand and New Zealanders poorer, and I think that is sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe one thing that I will be happy about when we finally pass this Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill is not having to be lectured any more by Nicky Wagner from a high moral ground that she has absolutely no right to inhabit. I noticed that there was an article in the Christchurch Press today in which Nicky Wagner explained how the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme will work\u2014but, actually, she did not. In that article, Nicky Wagner explained how the previous Labour Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme works, in terms of putting a price on carbon and influencing behaviour in that way. I say to Mrs Wagner that the legislation we are about to pass now does absolutely nothing like what she stated in that article. It will not reduce greenhouse gas emissions, it will not put the full price of carbon on the emitters by 2030 rather than on the taxpayer, and it will not change behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe need to remember why we are here doing this, because when we get rants from the National Party that we will be shutting down New Zealand if we try to do anything about climate change, I think we forget why we are here. We are here because all the parties in this House, with the exception of ACT, and I acknowledge that, believe that we need to do something about climate change and believe that this issue is so important that New Zealand needs to be seen to be playing its part. We also need to do this because we are an export-driven economy. We are incredibly susceptible to mood changes overseas and smear campaigns against our products, so it is even more important that we are seen to be doing our bit, even if that bit in percentage terms is not great when we look at the entire world picture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI was at a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference in Tanzania, and the President of Tanzania gave a very powerful speech in which he talked about climate change. He said that the snowcaps of Kilimanjaro are disappearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf776b48fb24fbcae6c045ac0c1490a\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What is their emissions trading scheme like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3dd7d084294e68abef4058374fba3b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: If Nicky Wagner listens to me, I will tell her that he said that this is not a problem that Tanzania created. This is not a problem that Africa created, but it is living with this problem every single day. The snowcaps of Kilimanjaro are disappearing. That is a water source for millions of people; it is a water source for their irrigation. The safari animals are starving, the cattle are starving, and the people are starving. The President said that his people do not have the luxury of sitting in a First World country, arguing about the science and about which economic model to put in place that will cost their country the least, because his people are suffering right now. He also said that we should not try to tell him that our farmers feed his people, because they do not, and they never will. He said: \u201CYou know what? Our farmers want to be able to feed themselves. That is what they want.\u201D He begged the Western countries there to take action on climate change and to show some leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe also sit in the Pacific region. We need to be able to go to our Pacific neighbours, whose islands are disappearing under water as we speak and who are facing salination issues because of the repeated floods and severe weather events in their region, and show that New Zealand, which has always been a strong advocate for our Pacific neighbours, is doing its part. We can no longer do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI think that if the National Government is not worried about what this might do in terms of our trading partners, it only needs to look at the Guardian article that appeared in the UK. This is another in a long line of campaigns against New Zealand products in Europe and in the UK. The Guardian slammed New Zealand\u2019s \u201Cclean, green\u201D and \u201C100% Pure\u201D branding as a cynical ruse and a shameless two fingers to the global economy. The article went on to state that, per capita, New Zealand is one of the world\u2019s worst polluters, with carbon emissions that are 60 percent higher than those of Britain. It decried our weak revised emissions trading scheme and mocked our reputation as a global leader in tackling climate change. If the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a9fbfded16043a08c634168130b16dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s been in Government for the last 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b7103c4e2d452f872eaa5c618d666e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should let me read that bit. The article decried our weak revised emissions trading scheme. The emissions trading scheme we have in place already is not that scheme, I say to Dr Nick Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is not an easy issue for Governments, because everyone says that something needs to be done about climate change but no one wants to pay for it, and that is what we found out at the select committee. Everyone has a reason why their sector is special or should be excluded. We acknowledge that it is difficult, but that is why a Government has to show leadership and not just buckle to the strong lobbying of big corporate business interests, as this Government has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat we have learnt in this process is that everyone in the world is wrong about climate change, except Dr Nick Smith. We only need to look at the editorials. The Christchurch Press headline was \u201CAuthority lacking\u201D and the New Zealand Herald had \u201CAnother sorry chapter in emissions farce\u201D. We also had \u201CKey should pull the plug on this dog of a bill\u201D, \u201CCompensation deal discredits all involved\u201D, \u201CClimate bill $92,000 per person\u201D, \u201C$50 billion rise in carbon scheme costs \u2018shows process too rushed\u2019\u00A0\u201D, and \u201CCarbon bill time bomb for taxpayers\u201D. I ask why everyone in the country is wrong, except for the Hon Dr Nick Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI thought it was interesting that when we were talking about Suzi Kerr, who is a visiting professor at Stanford University and a well-known expert on emissions pricing, Chris Tremain asked how good she could be if she had not managed to get the United States to put agriculture in its scheme. Suzi Kerr is not actually an elected representative of the US House of Representatives, I say to Mr Tremain, but that raises an interesting point about the United States. Dr Nick Smith is very, very keen on aligning New Zealand with Australia and on going with an intensity-based approach, because that is what Australia has done\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297cb2796b8f44658b9517bf07a9c2c27\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: As is Europe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0b132bcf46499ebd71cf71dabc5cfd\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and Europe. But what he did not tell people is that this would exclude us from working with the United States, which will be one of the biggest markets for purchasing carbon credits. It will be one of the biggest sources of investment for clean technology. Section 728 of the Waxman-Markey Bill on climate change, which was passed by the US House of Representatives, explicitly bans the United States from linking its emissions trading scheme with any country that moves away from volume caps and goes to intensity-based allocation. That is precisely what we have done in this legislation, and it did not have to be that way. It did not have to be that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will now come to the M\u0101ori Party comments. I appreciated the contribution of Rahui Katene at the Finance and Expenditure Committee and I very much appreciated her support for Labour, the Greens, and the ACT Party in ensuring that all the submitters who wanted to be heard were heard. I genuinely mean that. I also think that she was in a very difficult position at that select committee, and I would not have wanted to have had to sit through all those submissions. It was difficult for her and she handled it with grace, and I congratulate her on doing that. I am pleased that Rahui Katene has enjoyed working with the National Government so much, and I am pleased it has been such a positive and self-affirming experience for her. It kind of misses the point on what I am complaining about in this legislation, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will point out one of the things that I find really offensive. I have sat in this House, both up in the public gallery and as a member of Parliament, and I have listened to things that the Hon Dr Nick Smith has said. He stood up and peppered his speech today with words like mokopuna, and Papat\u016B\u0101nuku. I remember sitting in the House and listening to the debate on the local government bill that the previous Labour Government passed, and hearing the Hon Dr Nick Smith say that Labour\u2019s provision to allow councils to have M\u0101ori seats, as we have in the Bay of Plenty, was apartheid. He called that apartheid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227378afa2b6c24c1a9cca72934e8604dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f9c59d0610419fbd172d5642e32f4f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did. He is smiling now, because he knows that he did. I find it incredible that a member whose party had \u201CIwi/Kiwi\u201D billboards up not that long ago, and who had a big \u201C\u201COne law for all, the beaches belong to everyone\u201D billboard paid for by the taxpayer, called having M\u0101ori seats apartheid, and is now standing up, peppering his words with M\u0101ori, and acting as though those things did not happen. That is not sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI say to Rahui Katene that the fact that ACT and Labour have been such strange bedfellows on this legislation and have both voted against it shows just how bad the bill is and how bad the process has been. We oppose the bill for very, very different reasons, but we both agree on the process. The process has been one of the worst I have ever seen in my time in Parliament. The bill went through the select committee process in 6 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d16812c092f49f9bb4694732370adfc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish! What about the 800 amendments on Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d2afbced1d4fc4b8e9746b965df66a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Dr Smith how other many bills he has seen that have not had a revision-tracked version and have not had a clause by clause analysis. The answer is none; that is exactly how many. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ERahui Katene commented on fisheries. She praised the move from vessel operators to quota holders, and I think that really sums it up. That means that the M\u0101ori Party is favouring big corporate interests over the small-business people who run those fishing boats. I think that is\u2014let us be honest\u2014where we got on this, because the average cost to M\u0101ori households will increase dramatically. Power prices will not go down. The Government cannot force companies to drop power prices. It will not do that. It did not happen in Europe; it will not happen here. It is simply another handout that will not result in any lowering of costs for the New Zealand taxpayer. Power prices will not go down or be halved as a result of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022020b6614c88249b896033b38686e9945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022020b6614c88249b896033b38686e9945\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E It falls to me to take the last call on this third reading debate on the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. I am very pleased to say that this bill gives us a good balance between environmental objectives and economic realities. That is what it does; it takes the two most important issues facing the world and facing New Zealand\u2014the environment and the economy\u2014and says that we need to come up with a solution that is responsible, that does our part environmentally, but that also protects our economy and our jobs. It is a balancing game; there is no question about that. We have deeply ingrained zealots on both sides of the debate who will not see any other position but their own. But the answer has to lie in the middle between balancing those two positions. I think the Minister and the officials, as I said in my earlier contributions, have done an excellent job of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe are doing our part as a country, in this debate. We should remember that New Zealand produces 0.2 percent of the world\u2019s emissions; that is what we are talking about here. When we talk about the seas rising over Pacific Island countries, 99.8 percent of that we cannot influence, so let us get real about it. Do we really want to throw our businesses under the train so that they can beat the drums about what they are doing? The reality is that New Zealand can only play its part\u2014and this bill does play its part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI find it really interesting that, when we look at this bill, in actual fact members across the House agree on more about the structure of this system than we disagree about. Labour wanted an emissions trading scheme; we are proposing an emissions trading scheme. Labour was going to give free allocation to business; we are giving free allocation to business. Labour was going to give 90 percent of its top level of free allocation; so are we. So when Labour members talk about subsiding business, let us remember that Labour was going to give 90 percent allocation to industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EInterestingly enough, it has come out in subsequent discussions that even Labour members conceded that there were problems with their bill and the 8 percent phase-out was not going to work\u2014it was going to be too tough. They knew that. They were prepared to compromise on it. I tell members that they were even prepared to agree that industry should get an increased allocation. We were getting very close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EDo members know why we do not have broad bipartisan support on this? Do members know why? I will tell members exactly why. It is because Labour hates farmers. It has a visceral, deep, abiding, hatred for farmers. I cannot wait for 2011. I cannot wait to get up on the hustings versus a Labour candidate who will tell rural New Zealand that Labour will unwind the National bill and increase their costs from $3,000 a year to $30,000 a year. That is what the bill for the average farmer would be if Labour had its way. It would not be the $3,000 a year that we are talking about\u2014it would be $30,000. And to any Labour candidate who wants to campaign in rural New Zealand on a platform of Labour putting farmers out of business because that is ideologically right, I say good luck. If Labour candidates think they will go to rural New Zealand and tell people there that they will put up their costs tenfold, and give them a $30,000 bill, and that Labour is prepared to give intensity allocations to industrial sectors but not to farmers, I say good luck with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis Government realises that farmers are the backbone of this economy. They are getting 80 percent of the $50 billion allocation that members talk about. When Labour talks about that money going to big industry, I point out that it is not going to big industry; 80 percent is ensuring our farming sector can continue to survive and can continue to put food on the shelves to feed the world. I say \u201CCome on, 2011.\u201D If Labour is going to honestly campaign on a platform of putting up the costs to farmers to $30,000\u2014a tenfold increase\u2014good luck! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill. It is a very good balance between economic and environmental responsibilities. I am pleased to see that this Government is taking steps to halve the cost for Kiwi households. It is a good bill and I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8d1067e370f475c95518141f0af1c88\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c707001e071f44b2a7ae1f67432ec666\u0022\u003EPolicing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227dd4d64caf294e04a0443344c6efd28b\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228fcbf878e17e47e3a27d6fb11c95d94f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fcbf878e17e47e3a27d6fb11c95d94f\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be one debate of 12 10-minute speeches on the motion that the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d95a4b886474312b1123ce3fcdf6331\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228ac8f86bade48a7a6cc5a57ef478b04\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002253a3cce3a8f94f83b5279dba25234406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a3cce3a8f94f83b5279dba25234406\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200d875c6ba0c4deea5023ce5ada5625a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002271b235f214bc45149c5b88e0ca9f88c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b235f214bc45149c5b88e0ca9f88c9\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I take the opportunity to thank the parties represented in Parliament for their support of this legislation. The Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill is validating legislation. It will deem oaths of office taken by police employees between 1 October 2008 and 12 October 2009 to have been administered as though the persons administering those oaths had been authorised by the Commissioner of Police. It is a straightforward amendment involving the insertion of one new section into the Policing Act 2008. It is to come into force the day after it receives the Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe background to the bill is as follows. On 1 October 2008 the Policing Act came into force. Prior to this, the constable\u2019s oath was taken before a justice or commissioned officer; in other words, an inspector or above. A justice or commissioned officer was not required to be specifically authorised to administer the constable\u2019s oath. Section 22 of the Policing Act instituted a new procedure for administering that oath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUnder the new Act, the oath can be administered only by the commissioner or a person authorised by the commissioner. As well, the new Policing Act requires a person administering the constable\u2019s oath to be satisfied that each police employee taking the oath has been adequately trained to exercise the powers of a constable and is capable of exercising the powers of a constable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBetween 1 October 2008 and 12 October 2009 the constable\u2019s oath was administered to police employees graduating from the Royal New Zealand Police College by senior police employees based at the college. Persons who were able to administer the oath under the Policing Act 1958 assumed that that ability continued under section 22. Since 12 October 2009 one recruit wing has graduated from the Police College. The constables\u2019 oaths were administered to that wing by persons authorised under section 22 of the Act\u2014that is, the commissioner or a person authorised by the commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo police employees graduating from the college on and from 13 October 2009 have unquestionably had constabulary powers conferred upon them. However, uncertainty about conferral of those constabulary powers continues for those police employees who purportedly took the constable\u2019s oath between 1 October 2008 and 13 October 2009. It is important that people have confidence that officials are properly invested with statutory powers, and taxpayers should not be obliged to meet the significant expenses that would be incurred if all exercise of statutory powers taken by the affected employees were subject to challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill will deem the oaths taken by affected constables to have been administered as if the persons administering the oaths had been approved by the commissioner. It will remove any doubt about the validity of the actions of the affected police employees and thereby promote certainty and confidence in the acts carried out by them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill is consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. The bill does not retrospectively validate any actions that could be seen as inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. The bill does not legitimise unlawful actions by the police in the event that a person\u2019s rights have been infringed by any of the affected police employees. A claim under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act would still lie. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00222d6c33ecc7f1414e96574b1c48de1951\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d6c33ecc7f1414e96574b1c48de1951\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Minister of Police in passing through all stages the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill 2009 today. The Minister has clearly set out the reasons for this bill, and I am pleased that members are supporting the Minister in ensuring that it passes smoothly through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Policing Act 2008 replaced 50-year-old legislation. It was legislation that went through a very long process. There was a 2-year process of consultation, consensus, agreement, and, finally, the passage of the bill. A positioning paper put out for consultation was followed up with something like eight scoping papers that addressed many parts of the old Police Act, then a consultation document, and, finally, a draft bill. Throughout that process there was close collaboration and work between all parties in the House, and I think it was one of those bills where there was buy-in by all parties to ensure that we got legislation for the police of New Zealand that had the broad support of this Parliament. As the former Minister of Police, that was really important to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAt the time of the passage of the bill, I thanked the parties that had been involved and worked so constructively to ensure we had good legislation. We thought everything was right in the bill, but we now find that there could be a technical error in it. Therefore, we ought to correct it as quickly as possible. As the Minister pointed out, in the past at the swearing in of a new police officer the oath was taken before a justice or commissioned officer of police. The new Act changed that process. A new process was put in place, one that I think was definitely an oversight, so the police carried on with the old requirements under the old Act. This legislation will ensure that it will validate any of those oaths that were taken in the period that the Minister has already set out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that we support her in this measure. We do not wish to delay it longer than is necessary, and I hope that the House can see the bill passed speedily. It was suggested to me that there could be some people out there who would be cheering if they thought their arrest for a particular issue during the stated period now no longer stands. We can assure them that that is not the case. The officers who were sworn in under the amended regime will be just as well sworn in after the passage of this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b9701a1ae9d4669ae6154f274659027\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7000e75a39142de99e4e36accee1217\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7000e75a39142de99e4e36accee1217\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee stage on this bill, the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill, to be taken as one debate, with six questions at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc6864f4f48246158d617f99f25b5ea4\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b474a427efe4ad283b63d0ab491f67e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022919edd85f0a6488b9fc0582794bf5ffc\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002265be02fa597c472ca4e1cd4d28e18c7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265be02fa597c472ca4e1cd4d28e18c7d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There are four clauses in this bill: clause 1 specifies the title, clause 2 specifies the commencement date, clause 3 specifies the principal Act the bill is amending, and clause 4 validates the constables\u2019 oaths taken by police employees from and including 1 October 2008 through to the close of 12 October 2009, which had not been administered in accordance with section 22 of the principal Act. There are no issues to raise other than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022574f9247fa2c4e1187d2135afa8502c0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb46e407ba44022acca1ed0eef4efc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb46e407ba44022acca1ed0eef4efc8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I take another opportunity to thank all members of the House for the extremely constructive way in which they have dealt with this amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is validating legislation. It will deem oaths of office taken by Police employees between 1 October 2008 and 12 October 2009 to have been administered as though the persons administering those oaths had been authorised by the Commissioner of Police. It removes any uncertainty about conferral of constabulary powers for those Police employees. It is a very simple administrative provision. It fixes the matter. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8328a1764a4ddeaa6296e3da16331d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8328a1764a4ddeaa6296e3da16331d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Opposition supports the Government in the passage of the Policing (Constable\u2019s Oaths Validation) Amendment Bill .\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f947bf0c6c04e1a94e3e8c5c0d9b4e3\u0022\u003ECorrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288035c8a49404f0e8f3977d4f5fe737e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022453a32826a91478abfcc645b511d6f37\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to allow contract management of prisons\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc257db3b10c4b028ddc0f609b9e8eca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc257db3b10c4b028ddc0f609b9e8eca\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Seldom does this House get bills before it that are completely ideologically driven. The Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill is one of those rare bills. It is completely ideologically driven. There are no good reasons for supporting this bill; in fact, all of the evidence is to the contrary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe right wing has as its philosophy cutting taxes, privatising, contracting out, and deregulation. This Government is displaying all of the characteristics of an extreme right-wing view. This bill is one of those displays, as it is about contracting out. The Law and Order Committee heard, in submissions on the bill, that the annual cost per prisoner to the public of operating the Auckland Central Remand Prison as a private prison was $33,900, but the cost when the State ran it was $32,000. As privately running it meant an increase in cost, the committee was left wondering over and over again why we would do so. We heard no good reason other than, simply, ideology. When we look around the world at experiences in the United States, Canada, and Britain, we see that all of the evidence shows that private prisons do not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second very important point is that we are considering contracting out one of the most powerful and fundamental rights that this Parliament takes upon itself, which is to incarcerate its citizens. The executive arm of Government does not do that. The judiciary does not do it as of right. This Parliament sets the laws, this Parliament gives the judiciary the power to put people in prison and deprive them of their liberty, and this Parliament elects an executive to administer the prisons that undertake that work. It is not the executive that delegates power from the Minister of Corrections to the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections; it is this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis matter brings us to several of the amendments that the Labour Opposition is moving. We have put forward three Supplementary Order Papers that would ensure that Parliament has direct scrutiny of the operation of prisons. The Government has put forward this bill on a \u201Ctrust us, we know what we\u2019re doing\u201D basis. It is saying that the chief executive of the Department of Corrections, under the observation of the department\u2019s own auditors, will supply us with sufficient, good information. Well, I do not accept that, at all. This Parliament has an Officer of Parliament, in the form of the Controller and Auditor-General, because it does not have complete faith in the audits that executives may choose to take. Some people think that once there has been an audit, that is it, all is done. But several names show the failures of auditors: Enron, WorldCom, and Arthur Andersen LLP. All of those firms were thoroughly audited, yet collapsed and crashed spectacularly. The paperwork was perfect. That shows that independent scrutiny is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOne of the amendments we are moving, Supplementary Order Paper 88, will give the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General the authority to go into prisons and ask directly for information. The select committee considered this matter and received advice that the existing powers are sufficient for the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General, but Labour\u2019s view is that the powers still leave the office at arms length, with no direct ability to investigate for itself. One has to ask why this is. The answer is simple: the Department of Corrections, driven by the ideology of the current Government, wants to contract out prisons. If it does so, it will, inevitably, contract them out to foreign companies from Australia, the United States, Britain\u2014you name it. How this export of New Zealand dollars will be good for New Zealand, I do not know. The Government has not explained this yet, but no doubt the Minister of Corrections, Judith Collins, will tell us how the export of profits from our prisons is good for New Zealand. I can see no logical argument that would demonstrate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that these will be privately run institutions. Companies that run them under contract will not be subject to the scrutiny of the select committee and will not be subject to the direct scrutiny of this Parliament. We will give them the power to hold people in prison and deprive them of their liberty, and we are expected to believe that we can trust them to do everything well. Well, I do not believe that, because the committee heard from submitters that figures had been massaged. Staff who were on the job in private prisons testified to the committee that they massaged figures to suit their employers\u2014that is what they wanted\u2014and to suit the administration of the day. I simply do not trust this Government with these matters. I believe very strongly that the Opposition and Parliament should have the ability to scrutinise these activities. That is why Labour is moving an amendment to ensure that the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General can on its own initiative, if it so chooses, go into private prisons, interview staff, and go through all the details itself, rather than relying on the advice of the Department of Corrections or its auditors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe also believe, as shown by our Supplementary Order Paper 87, that this amendment should apply to the Ombudsman, as well. The argument has been put that the Ombudsman can get access to this information, but, again, it can do so only indirectly; it cannot get it directly, on its own motion. We believe that that is a weakness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe third amendment put forward by the Labour Opposition, Supplementary Order Paper 86, will restrict the length of contracts. We are very mindful that we are dealing with public money. This is not the money of the Department of Corrections and it is not the money of the Minister; it is taxpayers\u2019 money. The Opposition is very concerned to ensure that the money put into these contracts is well spent. We do not want to bind future Parliaments by having prison contracts that run for 12, 20, or 25 years. We believe that the next Government that comes in, in 3 years\u2019 time, must be able to examine such contracts to see whether they suit that particular Government. The contracts are hardly likely to suit it, because the department\u2019s own figures show that, on every measure, contracted prisons are more expensive to run than publicly run prisons. The American experience shows that they are more expensive and run worse than those run directly by the State. The Canadians experienced this and got rid of private prisons because they were poor performers. The British got rid of them also because they were poor performers. They do not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIf this Parliament gives power to the judiciary to deprive people of their liberty, and gives power to the executive to hold people in our prisons, then, as a fundamental principle, it should have the right to inspect and scrutinise that work directly. If a prison is run by a private company, we will not have that power. The power will be held by the private company and we will not have the ability to haul the company before the select committee to interrogate it. We can talk to the Department of Corrections, but, of course, the department and the Minister will have a vested interest in ensuring that the figures look good. They will work with staff to massage the figures, as we have already been told by people who have worked in privately run prisons. They made sure that those prisons looked good\u2014that is exactly what they did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENothing we have heard so far justifies this legislation, other than ideology. It is ideologically driven because all of the facts stand in opposition to it. It is ideologically driven because National believes in contracting out. There is no justification for it, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIf members look at the legislation that has been put forward, they will see that it states in new section 199, to be inserted by clause 5, that in the contracted prison standards are to be \u201Cno lower\u201D than in public prisons. The Minister in the chair says that the privately run prisons will all be better than public prisons. Well, why would one not state in the legislation that contracted prisons must always perform better than publicly run prisons? Of course, National will not write legislation to that effect, because it cannot deliver on it. The only restriction on our prisons from doing better is a lack of resources. The people who run our prisons are very able, very capable, and very innovative, and they will do better if we give them resources in every particular regard in terms of holding people in prison. The restriction on them has always been by way of resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis legislation not only is ideologically driven but also lacks ambition. It lacks ambition because National wants to see privately run prisons do only no worse than those in the public sector. This lack of ambition will be at a cost to the taxpayer. Every figure that the Law and Order Committee received shows that privately run prisons were more expensive than State prisons. There is no question about that. National members of the committee tried to get figures to show that privately run prisons were better, but they could get none\u2014not one example of how they were better. The world experience shows that contract prisons are worse and inferior to those run by the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225a18120defaf42a9ba1250a13c1c6d91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a18120defaf42a9ba1250a13c1c6d91\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow that member, Rick Barker. It was particularly good to hear him talk about the wonderful work of the Department of Corrections. I am sorry to say that in the Law and Order Committee today, during the review of the Department of Corrections, Rick Barker did not show any confidence in the department, at all. In fact, he quoted extensively some terrible recidivism rates, and he talked about how the department should be ashamed of itself. Then the member realised, as one of our members pointed out, that he had in fact been referring to the 2007-08 annual report, all of which was under the previous Labour Government. So when that member now wants to praise the Department of Corrections, I say good on him for doing so, because there has been a massive turn-round this year under this Government, and it is good to hear that we finally have a good Government helping and working with the department, and great performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat member also raised issues about cost. I did not realise that the Labour Party was such a low-cost option, but obviously that is what it wants. Prisons are not just about incarcerating prisoners; they are actually about keeping the public and our staff safe, and they are also about rehabilitation, and that is why this Government is committed to the rehabilitation of prisoners. We know that when we have a prison being run efficiently, along the lines so that we get the best value for money, we have more money to spend on rehabilitation. We know from the Auckland Central Remand Prison experience that the member talked about that the prison was the only remand-only prison in New Zealand at the time it was running. Therefore, comparisons with others are somewhat wonky. Frankly, the Auckland Central Remand Prison contracted for 70,000 hours of rehabilitation a year for prisoners, and the last year the prison was in operation it actually produced about 120,000 hours of rehabilitation\u2014well above its contracted level. Yet at the same time, remand wings in our prisons were not doing that. When we are looking at numbers it is important to be realistic about what we are talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe people who privately ran the Auckland Central Remand Prison brought iwi into prison management. They did a fantastic job. I went to see that prison when it was running\u2014and, as a lawyer, I had been into other prisons before\u2014and I knew that that prison was the best prison I had ever visited. The reason is that the whole attitude was about respect. When I went to the prison the staff said that they ran a culture of respect. Earlier this year I went to see four prisons in Australia. The member who has just resumed his seat, Rick Barker, says that this is all ideologically driven. Well, the prisons I went to see in Australia were all in Labour-run states in Australia, so I am not sure about the ideology there. In fact, they have been Labour-run states pretty much since Adam was a cowboy. We went to see two in Victoria and two in Queensland. What I saw there were maximum security prisons where I could walk around with other visitors in amongst the prisoners, in a situation where I actually felt safe. That is not something we could say about all of our maximum security prisons in New Zealand. I also saw rehabilitation, and I saw rehabilitation working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ed85fa219e49f1a6208d6d49eb5a13\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re talking about a remand prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7282687794b40a3894e2347f153746b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: They were not remand prisons. These were actually maximum security prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a37730a2418f45ba915de30b67fc56ff\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: A remand prison is slightly different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c400a4ea03d498197ee3e02cb28b07d\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, they were not, actually. There was one that was; all the others were maximum security prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee3fdf23a1b47e49d62f972d41137e6\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, one was\u2014so all the others weren\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c70b002e7544537b3269b872aa417f7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Three were not, of the ones I went to. I saw some rehabilitation, and I saw some efforts being made towards securing the best outcomes for prisoners. We already do what we can in the corrections area. The Department of Corrections has really improved in its performance this year, and it is great to be able to say that. But we can do better. One of the ways of doing better is to be able to benchmark ourselves against international standards and look at what we can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe member who has just resumed his seat talked about cost, cost, and cost again. But private prisons in New South Wales cost 32 percent less per prisoner than public prisons. The member did not want to talk about that. In Victoria they cost 11 percent less than public prisons. So when we are talking about cost we should look across the ditch and see what has been happening in states where there have been privately run prisons for years. The member also talked about the State needing to take over this role because of a constitutional issue. Well, actually, we also have privately run and contracted transporting of prisoners. In fact, that happened under the previous Labour Government. I did not hear Labour members talking then about it being ideologically impure, and I did not hear them talking then about the need to have the State doing every single thing because otherwise it would not be right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the great things about having privately run prisons, apart from benchmarking, is the fact that we can actually have fines and incentives for programmes and for performance. That is not something we can really have in the State-run system. What we would like to be able to do is look at how we can make rehabilitation and a lessening in the rate of recidivism part of our contract management. Members also talked about the need to have the Auditor-General roaming through our prisons. I do not think that is necessary, when we have it quite clearly stated in the legislation that there will be prison monitors appointed by the Department of Corrections who will be responsible to the chief executive. One of the other good things about that clause, if the member wants to look at it, is that it means those monitors have to be changed on a routine basis so that we do not get people who get captured by the environment in which they are working. I think that is incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOver the past few months people have said that we have been talking to people who have been running privately run prisons. Yes, we have. A lot of people who have come to see us have talked about privately run prisons, and we have been to look at them in Australia. I can say that every single one of the people who have talked to me has made it very clear that we want strong iwi involvement in prisons in this country. Fifty-one percent of our prison population is M\u0101ori. That is a shocking statistic, and it is certainly not getting any better. I expect that we will have a great input of iwi, in particular, into rehabilitation. We think that is absolutely crucially important, and that is why I would love to be able to see the Labour Opposition come out and support the work of my Associate Minister of Corrections, Dr Pita Sharples\u2014in particular, in relation to the rehabilitation unit that he is putting together. Yet all we heard from the Labour Opposition\u2014actually, from Mr Cosgrove, to be fair to the rest of its members\u2014was about a race-based justice system. Actually, that is the sort of nonsense we have heard from that party in Opposition over prisons. What we should be doing is looking at what works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ae05413c504a4a8145b1d77d7d1d39\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to go and get the Hansard of every time you said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ed2c3c7a24410d95a5901d3d0d9202\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014well, I tell the member to find one. In fact, I think it is extremely important that people look at what works. That is why we are putting through this bill, with the support of the ACT Party, United Future, and the M\u0101ori Party, and I would like to thank those parties for their support. That is what we are doing. It is about good outcomes for people and good outcomes for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209eb177ce47c4d5f880e58b3eda3c6e2\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us the evidence; there is no evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904d63cb0a254aba811bf259f1926ddd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Mr Hipkins does not think there is any evidence at all in relation to the M\u0101ori units that Dr Sharples is looking at, but I say to Mr Hipkins that I think it is really important to give things a go and go for the best outcomes. We have 20-odd prisons in this country. We will have at least two that will be privately run. That is what we are looking at\u2014not wholesale privatisation but a reasonable benchmarking against which we can benchmark ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00222fdf06b1d69e47adbe1d72c6763a9699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fdf06b1d69e47adbe1d72c6763a9699\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: \u201CEveryone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.\u201D, and that is what this debate is about. The reason we are debating this matter from a human rights perspective is that the implementation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is something we have responsibility for. That responsibility for the deprivation of liberty lies with the Crown, and it simply cannot be contracted out to just anyone the Government of the day considers might be appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Collins, needs to think seriously about the consequences of a Supreme Court of Israel decision that came out late last week on Thursday, 19 November. It is a very interesting case, and I believe that it has relevance to this particular debate because, essentially, the Supreme Court of Israel has overturned the privatisation of prisons in Israel. It has done so on constitutional grounds, because of the fundamental breach of human rights that the process recommends. I do not have the actual decision in front of me, but I do have a report of the decision. It reports the President of the Supreme Court of Israel as saying: \u201CIsrael\u2019s basic legal principles hold that the right to use force in general, and the right to enforce criminal law by putting people behind bars in particular, is one of the most fundamental and one of the most invasive powers in the state\u2019s jurisdiction. Thus when the power to incarcerate is transferred to a private corporation whose purpose is making money, the act of depriving a person of his liberty loses much of its legitimacy. Because of this loss of legitimacy, the violation of the prisoner\u2019s right to liberty goes beyond the violation entailed in the incarceration itself.\u201D The president also argued that \u201Cin a prison run by a private company, prisoners\u2019 rights are undermined by the fact that the inmates are transformed into a means of extracting profit.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6f4b61d1bf47bbb3f3ae160050291b\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342039dfbfc24741803a0ec69dccdece\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEfficiency\u201D, the president wrote, \u201Cis not a supreme value when the most basic and important human rights for which the state is responsible, are at stake.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45b277c9e2845d8be17aa494b27b186\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a0c6dc69ff4fc8b306c78eb687f4f1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I know that members opposite do not care about human rights. I understand that, and the interjections coming from the chair of the Law and Order Committee I expect from her, because she does not have the same background as her colleague next door to her, who, at least, has picked up a law book and read it, which could be surprising. But maybe the Minister of Education could read a book to her\u2014maybe that would be a good idea; if it had enough pictures we would probably be away laughing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut the point that I want to make is serious, and the serious point I want to make is that this decision is the beginning of the end of the international privatisation of prisons. It is the beginning of the end, because I believe that this case will become the foundation stone for cases that will be taken to the International Court of Justice, which will overturn what has been a fundamental breach of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by the privatisation\u2014for profit\u2014of the deprivation of liberty. I am not arguing that any of the individuals concerned are not entitled to have their liberty deprived; they have committed crimes for which they will be held accountable. But this case says, and puts it very well, that the loss of legitimacy when profit is being made out of their incarceration is beyond that for what would otherwise be a violation of a basic human right. So I believe that the Minister does need to respond to this very recent decision. It is the beginning, I believe, of a series of cases around the world where the fundamental tenets that support our justice system in this country will be challenged in international jurisdictions, and where those of us who have gone down this track will be held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I will say is not so much in relation to that decision but to what happens when there is a change of Government, because we have made it absolutely clear that this will end in the same way that it ended after Labour became the Government in 1999 and inherited the Auckland Central Remand Prison under private management. I would like the Minister to respond to the content of the report. I know that she has probably not read this part of the report back from the Law and Order Committee, because it comes under the heading \u201CNew Zealand Labour Party minority view\u201D. But I am assured, and the footnote states, that the source of the information\u2014and it is reprinted exactly\u2014is from the \u201CDepartment of Corrections \u2026 request for further information from the Law and Order Committee,\u201D. So this information comes from the Minister\u2019s department, and I just want her to respond to these per prisoner costs, as tabled in the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen the Auckland Central Remand Prison was under private management from 1 July 2004 to 30 June 2005, the cost per prisoner was $35,700 for operating costs only, and $57,280, inclusive of property-related overheads, to look after a single prisoner. Remand prisoners held in other public prisons in that same period were only $32,000 and $50,208, by way of comparison. There are those who would say that the Auckland Central Remand Prison had particular additional costs, so that in the year after it went back into public management it would of course have cost more because costs would have risen. But in fact, no, the costs went down. The comparable figures per prisoner were $33,900 and $55,853.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am really confused about the Minister\u2019s comments that the private system is more cost-effective. Why, then, did it cost more when the Auckland Central Remand Prison was under private management, from 2004 to 2005, than it cost from 2005 to 2006 under public management? Obviously, at that time when other costs had gone up, the system, under public management, still cost less than it had cost the year before under private management. That to me is the second element of the argument against the privatisation of the prison function. Although there are statements as to privatisation being more cost-effective, in fact I cannot find examples anywhere of where it is. And the figures that the Minister has used to compare public with private of course do not mention that prison officers get paid less in a private prison, and that the ratio of officers to prisoners is substantially lower as well. I do not think that it is reasonable to say that we are comparing apples with apples. I think we heard the comparisons from someone today about \u201Capples and apples\u201D, \u201Coranges and oranges\u201D, and \u201Capples and oranges\u201D. But the point is that no comparison can be made unless we actually have a clear statement as to the nature of the terms of engagement for officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOfficers do this important work on our behalf. This is not work that anyone would choose particularly to do, and the fact that we have loyal prison officers within our corrections system willing to undertake that role, on our behalf, and on behalf of the State, is something that we should value and not contract out to the lowest bidder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat brings me to my third point, which is the ability to have genuine supervision over what occurs in our prisons. I totally support the Supplementary Order Papers that have been tabled by my colleague the Hon Rick Barker. The first is in relation to the Ombudsman; the second is in relation to the Auditor-General. I do not think it is good enough to have a prison reporting through a department. There is nothing better than to have the direct oversight of those who have the standing and the independence of both our Ombudsman and our Auditor-General, in respect of ensuring both that the processes being conducted within the corrections system are being conducted in a proper manner, and that there is accountability and transparency back to this House. That is where the accountability and transparency must lie. If it does not lie here, then I really do think that the Government has lost the plot as far as our obligations go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe third Supplementary Order Paper that my colleague has tabled is to ensure that no contract is let for more than 3 years. That is a very good Supplementary Order Paper, because it makes it very clear to anyone who is possibly even thinking about taking advantage of contracting for one of our prison managements that they will have that contract overturned after a change of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9f6474fa2fd40148ec259f0ffce18dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9f6474fa2fd40148ec259f0ffce18dd\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E After listening to the Opposition, one would think that the end was nigh. I just cannot believe how overblown it is making this whole issue. I want to make a few comments, and I will quote from a report around contestability. There are three things I want to talk about. One is the Australian study comparing two new-generation public sector prisons, where the operating arrangements in the industrial award have been negotiated by the state Government under an explicit threat of market testing with two old-style prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf38ecdbde9c49e4b768abb9fc216a10\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Take it slowly, Sandra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b407ba2d9ea43808214d03fe3f3f213\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are three quotes here, so it could take a while. I would be surprised if the Opposition members are listening, actually, even though they need to learn a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a248b57ef9c4d93910ec89a62bf0f95\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t understand, Sandra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f038d768868c46dbbb35699c4bddffa6\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the problem, and I guess this issue is mostly around union protectionism, really. The bottom line is that competition actually does work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Australian report states: \u201CThe authors of the study compared overtime and sick leave, which were regarded as major sources of inefficiency in the traditional prison estate, and found significant improvements. To our knowledge, this is the only study that has explicitly explored the efficiency gains from threatened competition.\u201D Well, that is what Labour members do not like. They cannot stand competition\u2014the idea that somebody might make one dollar more than somebody else. They cannot stand that. They would rather have inefficiency, because they cannot stand competition. They cannot stand the fact that competition generates innovation and new ideas, and a new way of exploring how to do things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe report goes on to state: \u201COne of the most significant impacts of introducing competition into custodial services has been to force prison managers to explore new service designs and management regimes. \u2026 A national survey of 65 private correctional institutions across the United States \u2026 found that, on average, staffing levels were \u2026 lower \u2026 Moreover, where public prison operators were exposed to competition, this was one of the most common ways in which they strove to reduce their costs.\u201D Then it goes on to say\u2014and this is the final quote I will use\u2014\u201CCompetition has played an important role in the adoption of innovative new approaches to prison management\u201D. Is the Opposition listening to this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfe8f88511f4265b0feed287a7750d5\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276192301db13495f857f259688ed4a13\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Opposition members should listen, because time and time again they miss the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba738e5271764a2e88bac8dce3b1e1c8\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all about ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43ba522b8374145933cdaa4a29693ac\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014it is all about ideology. It is not about the reality of the situation. The Opposition is driven solely by its ideology and its love of unions. The Opposition wants to protect union members\u2019 jobs and make sure they are secure. Competition does bring in new ideas and new approaches to prison management, and brings the dissemination of best practice across both the public and private sectors. The two sectors actually benefit each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe last argument put forward by Ms Dalziel was about the lack of monitoring and accountability. Well, the fact is that there is a tonne of it in the bill, as the Opposition members will see if they look at it. Some of that monitoring and accountability was generated through good discussion from the members of the Law and Order Committee. There were times when we had reached consensus on some of the ways forward, but there were other times, of course, when we could not possibly do so, because the ideology was a bit of a roadblock. There is plenty of monitoring and accountability. A monitor is to be appointed for each contract prison, and the chief executive can appoint further monitors for different and particular purposes. There are also assistant monitors. So there are primary monitors, monitors for particular purposes, and we also have assistant monitors. We actually have three levels of monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edecdcce51aa4a79a9adc5ad6a18c8ab\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a land of opportunity, this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b136155610402786f1248b241a08e2\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Just how much oversight does this Opposition\u2014this Labour Opposition; the nanny State party\u2014need? The Labour members just cannot get away from the fact that they are not happy unless they have a whole heap of monitors. [Interruption] That is absolutely right; they do not trust anyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhat is the next Opposition argument? The next argument is that it is wrong that the running of prisons should offer the potential to make a profit. Well, for goodness\u2019 sake! If it were not for a bit of profit, we would not survive in the economic world today. The Opposition members just do not understand business. They do not understand how to make a buck, and we can understand why that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9486e846dd045ff9635c180fdfb3d54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9486e846dd045ff9635c180fdfb3d54\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is rather surreal sitting here and listening to this debate about ideology from the other side of House. Let me get this right. I will go slowly. Your ideology is like this: State control good\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a749d8d21a4af59c7988286e9cf067\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229374380a76b640faa3d31e404e0b2b44\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Chairperson. I meant Labour\u2014and the Greens even more so, but I will come to them in a moment. Labour\u2019s ideology is: State control good, private enterprise bad. So to say that this measure is driven by some sort of mad, right-wing, privatising market ideology is really quite amusing. I expected far better from the Hon Rick Barker, whom I happen to respect considerably as a man of integrity and experience. But my incredulity was increased even more when the Hon Lianne Dalziel got to her feet. She is a graduate of the same law school I went to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266222b56eb1841a7b19c89fc4da8c7fc\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: She got better marks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3abea7d82a4a238006af31517329e1\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I doubt that, actually, I say to Mr Hughes. We can compare academic records any time the member likes. When I was at law school our court hierarchy went like this: the District Court, the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Privy Council. Now, thanks to a\u2014thankfully departed\u2014politician, who is now on the far side of the world, our hierarchy of courts is like this: the District Court, the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court\u2014that monstrosity over the road. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EMs Dalziel was at law school before me, and at no time, to my knowledge\u2014and I have done a wee bit of legal history\u2014has the Supreme Court of Israel been part of our court hierarchy. I find it very amusing that Ms Dalziel stands there brandishing a judgment from the Supreme Court of Israel and cites it with approval. If I am not much mistaken, I have heard that party over there, Labour, and certainly that one down there, the Greens, bagging the country of Israel at great length and on many occasions. Those parties say they are Zionists and have oppressed the Palestinians. Well, I happen to agree with them. Israel did not come into an uninhabited desert, as they would have us believe, and make orange groves out of nothing. They came in and drove the Palestinians out. So for Ms Dalziel to be quoting the Supreme Court of Israel is, as her colleague Mr Cosgrove says frequently, a bit rich. So that is point No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003ENow, talking of ideology, the more ideological party here is the Greens. Former Green member Mr Tanczos has admitted in this House that although the Auckland Central Remand Prison had better indicators on suicide, suicide attempts, violence to guards, and violence by prisoners against each other\u2014he admitted that all that was true\u2014the Greens were against it. He admitted that even if that result were repeated in spades, the Greens would be against it. That is ideology, is it not? Let me ask the Green Party a question. Let us say, for example, that a private prison, run in conjunction with an iwi, reduces M\u0101ori recidivism from 70 or 80 percent, as it is now, to 25 percent in 5 years. I ask Mr Clendon whether the Green Party would still be opposed to private prisons. The answer is yes, because of ideology. It does not matter what works. It does not matter what the indicators are. The Greens would be opposed to it. What about Mr Hipkins? If we establish a private prison\u2014and it will happen, as the member knows\u2014and if in 5 years the recidivism rate is 25 percent less than it is now, will you still be opposed to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7e266316ec4111bfb5bbbedf6fc77b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: There is no evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022012e4ecc49404b34b8d3e7f110e34b50\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, just answer the question\u2014it is quite simple. Would you still be opposed to it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e016a8bed30f4cb2afaf0299cda5b7c1\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s completely hypothetical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227edb141f85e3415a9035240cc9b24ef5\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: You obviously have not read the Standing Orders. You are allowed to ask hypothetical questions in here, even in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c49f191b69c4de88fc381aeac605576\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. When the member starts lecturing other members about reading the Standing Orders, and his entire speech consists of references to \u201Cyou, you, you\u201D\u2014\u201Cyou\u201D being the Chair\u2014I think that is sailing pretty close to the wind. He should come back to Part 1 of the bill. These references to \u201Cyou\u201D are just unbecoming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225823090249c140bd8b55d47811faae33\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I did actually call order there before, but I had in my excitement muted myself. So I take responsibility for not being able to impart that. But the member must mind his pronouns. Any member gets a 5-minute call. If members seek another call and I think they have not made best use of their time, it is my judgment as to whether they will get an additional call. That is my methodology\u2014I probably should not be giving away secret information, but members, in the best interests of the Parliament, ought to be making the best use of their time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c93e862a290416c8e98c686a520bbf4\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I stand corrected, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much. I simply make the point that on the limited experience we have, private prison operation works. We will give it a go. We will see. ACT is supposed to be the ideological party, but on this occasion we in ACT say \u201CLet us see what works.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebf2dad2932b4d9d8b267faba68a1767\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebf2dad2932b4d9d8b267faba68a1767\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill is fundamentally wrong in principle and fundamentally wrong in practice. Mr Garrett wants evidence, and I will come back to that shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe need to be absolutely clear that what takes place in our correctional system and the taking away of liberties are fundamental responsibilities of Government. If we want to go down the path of privatising the taking away of individuals\u2019 liberty, we are on a very slippery slope in terms of the kind of society we will live in. It is a core function of Government to take that liberty away\u2014a core function.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248933c50a92d4b728f628163a5e2761f\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: The courts do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c89a5c0b13a4d62b37ab6ab04d170a0\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I say to Mr Young that it is a core function of this Parliament to make laws. When we make a law like this, we go down a very dangerous path. We have to accept that when we pass laws in this Parliament there is accountability and responsibility. I want to return in this call, or perhaps in another one, to the Supplementary Order Papers that Mr Barker has put forward on the matter of accountability. If the driver of our prison system is profit, the safety of our communities and the safety of the people who work in our correctional system will be compromised. If the driver is profit, the driver is not the safety of our communities. That is the evidence from around the world. It is fundamentally wrong in principle to go down this path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do not think members opposite should dismiss the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court quite so quickly, because it is quite clear that those people who have driven the opposition to private prisons in Israel know that this is an issue that will be taken up globally. This is a major legal challenge to the rights of private prisons to actually exist, and it will be picked up. Whether or not members opposite agree with that legal challenge or think that Israel should not be considered in this debate, the challenge will be picked up by the opponents of private prisons. The opponents of private prisons in New Zealand do not come just from the Labour Party and they do not come just from the Green Party; they come from right across the sectors of society. The Catholic Church in New Zealand opposed it. The Howard League for Penal Reform\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7d577701534cb48ccfb9dc462c0c61\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: There must be another lawyer over there somewhere who knows something about the law, surely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249943865928d48a08ec3fe647382360b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Garrett that this bill is actually about a fundamental responsibility of this Parliament. Lawyers are not the only people who have an opinion about this. It is a vitally important law and it will be taken seriously on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Israeli Supreme Court said quite clearly that the right to enforce\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85fb7623afb4272a276b615af070c9b\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Who cares?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f407fa8474824c1781aac06baba8a297\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Garrett that people will take this case up, and the Government needs to have a response. I want to know whether the Minister of Corrections knows about this decision. Has she been briefed about it? Can she take a call and let us know whether this Government is ready for the legal challenge that will come in relation to the right to have private prisons? That legal challenge will be coming in New Zealand and around the rest of the world, and the Government needs to know how it will respond to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill is also fundamentally wrong in practice. Sweeping statements have been made throughout this debate about how private prisons will be more efficient and more effective, yet the evidence right around the world is that that is not true. In the United States we know that from a report in 2001 describing what happened when prisons were privatised. It makes absolutely clear that the quality of services and safety was compromised. Abuses found in privately run prisons included low wages for staff, poorly trained staff, bad food, and overcrowding. That is from Project Censored of the Sonoma State University in California. It describes a destructive pattern of extensive inmate idleness, a lack of correctional experience on the behalf of almost all staff, and a search procedure that could fairly be described as a reign of humiliation directed indiscriminately at the entire prison population. That is the evidence from the United States of America. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe could go to the United Kingdom, where in 2008, 10 of the 11 private prisons in the United Kingdom were in the bottom quarter of prisons. The United States National Council on Crime and Delinquency said\u2014and here is the evidence; this is its quote\u2014there was \u201Cno data to support the contention that privately operated facilities offer cost savings over publicly managed facilities.\u201D The privatisation of prisons is wrong in principle, it is wrong in practice, and it does not save any money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe can go to Australia. In fact, the Minister has told us already that she went to Australia to look into this. Firstly, the briefing the Minister herself got for her trip to Australia from the Department of Corrections advised that there was no compelling evidence to demonstrate privately managed prisons provide higher-quality services, better outcomes, or significant cost savings in the correctional system. That is what the Minister was told by her own department. But when she went to Australia, she could have perhaps looked into the Metropolitan Women\u2019s Correctional Centre in Victoria. It was privatised. After an inquiry in 2000 found widespread drug use, deaths in custody, poor training, and cover-ups, the Victorian Government was forced to take that facility back into public control. In Canada in 2006 the Government returned the country\u2019s one private prison to the public sector because there had been no appreciable benefit to the country and to the correctional system. That is the problem with this bill: it is wrong in principle, but it is also wrong in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we come back to the situation in New Zealand, we know what we have experienced. We had that time with the Auckland Central Remand Prison. My colleagues have already spoken about the fact that from a financial point of view, it provided no benefit whatsoever. It also did nothing in terms of the wages or safety of staff. None of that was improved by going down this path. In fact, as Mr Barker has said already, the bar is set so low in Part 1 of this bill that the prison does not even have to be better or provide a better service in terms of New Zealanders\u2019 safety. This is a mistaken piece of legislation. It is driven by ideology; it is certainly not driven by evidence. It is certainly not driven by evidence globally or evidence within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will refer to the Supplementary Order Papers, because I think one of the critical elements about why incarceration is a State responsibility comes down to transparency and accountability. In the bill we can see that the Law and Order Committee realised this, because it did include a provision for the Public Records Act to apply to the contracts that are entered into under the bill. That material about prisoners will now be treated as if it were produced by the Department of Corrections. The natural corollary to that is to allow Parliament to have some scrutiny via the Ombudsman and the Auditor-General so that we can see what is going on and look at how resources are being used. I simply cannot see why, if the Government is prepared to accept that the Public Records Act should apply, the Ombudsman and Auditor-General should not be given the same ability to come forward and look into and analyse those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Papers from the Hon Rick Barker will do just that. They will allow the Office of the Auditor-General to have complete and unrestricted access to all aspects of any contractor prison, as if it were a prison run by the Department of Corrections. The Minister needs to tell us what is wrong with that. What is wrong with Parliament having the ability to have some scrutiny over these things? The same applies with the Ombudsman. Although the Ombudsman may have some indirect ability, Parliament needs some reassurance, if we are going to go down this mad path of privatisation in prisons, that we can look into what is happening in those prisons. Supplementary Order Paper 87 \u201Cauthorises the Ombudsman to have complete and unrestricted access to any contracted prison, prisoner, prison records, and prison staff to carry out the duties and responsibilities of the Ombudsman\u2019s Office \u2026\u201D. They are two very sensible Supplementary Order Papers that attempt to make some kind of transparency and accountability available to the people of New Zealand. The Minister must tell us why she is not\u2014I presume she is not\u2014supporting those Supplementary Order Papers. Could we get some indication from the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e353e9e6cca45d8b1a74347651d2baf\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: She obviously thinks they are quite funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5929a368f946e194d37075cb337c5c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: She does seem to find it quite funny. In fact, National members seem to find the whole debate quite funny. I would like to hear her take a call on those Supplementary Order Papers and let us know what she wants to do with them. The third Supplementary Order Paper that Mr Barker has put forward amends section 198 to make sure that no contract for running a prison under this Act will be more than 3 years. This is a very sensible amendment because it will not bind a future Government; this bill will be repealed under a future Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill and this Part 1 are fundamentally flawed in principle and in practice, and they simply do not stand up to the scrutiny of international evidence. If we really want to enter into this brave new world, as Sandra Goudie said, to give it a go and give it a whirl, I say that it is too important for that. The safety and security of New Zealanders will be compromised. The safety and security of staff will be compromised. It simply is not good enough to say that we are just going to give it a go. It has not worked elsewhere; it will not work here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef8e0ec87b7d425caf43f84986c1a8f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef8e0ec87b7d425caf43f84986c1a8f2\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am on the Law and Order Committee with a few other members who are in the House tonight. For the whole time, the Government has pushed the idea that private prisons are safer, better, and cheaper. But I know, like every other member on that select committee knows, that the vast majority of the submissions that came through on the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill were opposed to private prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne submission that was not opposed\u2014that was in support of private prisons\u2014was from the GEO Group. We all know that that group has a vested interest in making sure that we privatise prisons, because it wants to make profits out of our prisoners. John Key is reported as saying that private prisons produce very good results, and he was talking with regard to the GEO Group and the private prisons that exist in Australia. The GEO Group is part of the Wackenhut Corporation\u2014the owner of 13 correctional facilities, 11 of which are operated by GEO Group. The group has immigration detention centres, youth facilities, and adult prisons. GEO Group\u2019s value now apparently exceeds $1 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIf it is really as good as that, why did it recently settle a case where staff had placed a woman in a cell block with male inmates, by whom she was raped and beaten, and she later took her own life? If it is really as good as that, why were 125 inmates removed from a prison by state authorities because of inadequate staff training and inadequate health care? GEO Group\u2019s facilities have been reported as serving rotten food. They have knowingly made false and misleading statements to state officials, they have failed to complete criminal record checks on at least 100 guards, and they have violated domestic and international laws on due process and humane treatment. Mr Key says that private prisons have shown good results, but I ask members whether they think those are good results. We do not think so on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EPrison officers who worked for the Auckland Central Remand Prison when it was under private management made a submission to our select committee. They said that serious, dubious things had gone on with regard to cover-ups, the way in which they were paid, and working conditions. They pointed out that in order to get bonuses, it was important that they made sure that they reported in a way that did not show up anything untoward; otherwise, they would not collect the money. Those concerns were raised with the select committee, yet the Government is still pushing for us to privatise our prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Minister of Corrections, was earlier talking about the fact that privatisation is not all about cost, but, unfortunately, not long ago the Minister was the one saying that private prisons would be cheaper, and it was all about the fact that they would be safer, better, and cheaper. We already know, when we look at the evidence that I just discussed, that private prisons are not safer. Cost has been discussed by some of the members on this side of the House, and when we compare it with the cost of State prisons, we see that private prisons are not cheaper. We know that they are not safer, not cheaper, and not better. So there is absolutely no reason for this Government to go ahead and privatise our prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAmong the Supplementary Order Papers that have been discussed is Supplementary Order Paper 86, which was put forward by the Hon Rick Barker. It states that the contract for the running of a prison shall last for no more than 3 years. The problem at the moment with this bill is that the length of the contract is unlimited. The Minister will decide the length of the contract. Our concern on this side of the House is that if the management of the prison goes wrong, New Zealanders will have to fork out money to pay to get out of that contract. We cannot determine for how long the Minister will decide that the contracts run. For Mr Rick Barker to put forward an amendment that would limit the contracts to 3 years is completely reasonable. At the end of the day, whoever is in Government can decide whether private prisons are working and decide whether those contracts are to be extended. There is absolutely no reason why the term of the contract should be at the discretion of the Minister, and there is no reason why we cannot legislate for a certain term, so that on behalf of New Zealanders we can check on how privatisation is going, and can make sure that they do not have to pay out when things go wrong and we desperately need to get out of a contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWith regard to the evidence that I discussed earlier, it is obvious that things go wrong with private prisons. They have done in other countries; they have done in New Zealand in the past. It is a real issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00221dffc6b4b894432da550eef5399856dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dffc6b4b894432da550eef5399856dd\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I want to do several things in the next few minutes. First, I would like to agree with some of the comments my colleagues have made in respect of their disagreement in principle with the idea of the privatisation of prisons. Then I would like to talk a little about what it might mean in practice, and about the evidential base that we might draw upon when making that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn principle I absolutely disagree with the idea that any private firm should make a profit out of the incarceration of people. I think it is a morally repugnant that somebody should make a profit out of incarcerating a prisoner. It is simply, in my view\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c654905771f4e41ae07687378a631a0\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d5cd788c344a468ab563392b67fe9b\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is ideology; it is ideological. I find the idea that someone would make a profit out of somebody else\u2019s suffering\u2014whatever the cause of that suffering\u2014simply wrong. I do not agree with it. But let us look at the evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have been sitting and listening to this debate. I am opposed to this bill\u2014and that is my ideological view, but I am willing to listen to a good argument based on evidence. I have not seen any evidence from the Government, from the ACT Party, or from anybody else who is in favour of the private operation of prisons that actually suggests it will be better and that it will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, used two main justifications for it: that it would be cheaper, and that it would have an impact on prisoner rehabilitation. If we measure the effect on prisoner rehabilitation by the rate of recidivism, it is worthwhile looking at the very limited amount of peer-reviewed academic research that has been done overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMy colleague David Parker, during the first reading of this bill, referred to two peer-reviewed studies that were done in the United States. Very few peer-reviewed studies have been done on the private operation of prisons. I will quote from the first one, which is called The Effectiveness of Juvenile Correctional Facilities: Public versus Private Management. The authors are Patrick Bayer from Yale University and David Pozen from Oxford University. Their study concluded: \u201Cfor-profit management has a statistically significant impact on recidivism \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe unfortunate fact for the Government is that the statistics go the wrong way. The 1-year recidivism rates are 5 to 8 percent higher for those juveniles who were in a privately run prison facility. That is some of the limited international evidence about the effectiveness of private prisons. It suggests that recidivism rates are higher in for-profit private prison facilities. So we can discount what the Minister has said about that on that ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other study is called the Bales report. Again, it was a peer-reviewed study, and it was about the experimentation of private prisons in Florida. That study found no empirical justification for the policy argument that private prisons reduce recidivism any more than public prisons do. So we can discount the idea that a private prison will be any better for prisoner rehabilitation. In fact, when we look at the motivations behind how a private prison will operate, and the motivations for why someone would go into running a private prison, we see that there will not be the right incentives for effective prisoner rehabilitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe second argument the Minister, Judith Collins, put forward was one on cost, and it was simply wrong. The limited experience we have in New Zealand shows that, in fact, private prisons are not cheaper. We can compare public and private management figures in relation to the Auckland Central Remand Prison. The rate for a public prison is $50,208, which is $7,000 less than the New Zealand experience in the private prison sector, when we had a private prison. So we can discount that, as well. The New Zealand experience shows that cost simply is not a factor. So the two justifications that the Minister put forward for wanting to push this bill through Parliament have already been discounted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have a couple of technical questions that I hope the Minister will address. I refer her to new section 198 in clause 5, \u201CManagement of prisons under contract\u201D. Rick Barker has put forward an amendment limiting any contracts to 3 years, and I support that, but what this bill does not do is establish any criteria under which a decision may be made as to why a prison may be contracted out to private management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002232df83de30e74b99a8ca38ee18e788a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232df83de30e74b99a8ca38ee18e788a8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is only fair that I answer some of the questions raised by the Opposition members. I am happy to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn relation to Mr Barker\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers, I say that Mr Barker has never once referred those matters to me or to our caucus, and I am afraid we will not be supporting them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMr Hipkins has been talking tonight about several issues. I hope I have this right. I think one of the things he has raised is that, effectively, no one should make a profit out of someone else\u2019s unfortunate circumstances. Is that a reasonable rendition of what the member said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e9bf53ca5c44db90fff457face128e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: In the case of prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022596e55ef42534f50a54bf2090fd8c7fc\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: On that basis we would not have private hospitals. We would not have dentists outside of the hospitals. We certainly would not have grocery shops, because, basically, food is all privatised in this country. We certainly would not have insurance, and we definitely would not have schools that were private or privately owned. The fact is that the State provides the funding, and as long as it is monitored and the chief executives are in charge, it is another matter who runs it. I have not yet heard Labour members refer to the fact that under their watch it was quite all right for prisoners who were sent from the court to prison to be transported in privately run prison vans. How does that work with the Opposition\u2019s theory that only the State should be in charge of that area? Why should that be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe fact is that Opposition members are ideologically driven, as long as it works for them. But unfortunately we have found that sometimes the State is not always the best performer on every single measure. I heard a lot from Miss Sepuloni tonight about the terrible things that have happened in private prisons. I have news for that member: really terrible things have happened in State-run prisons too\u2014quite a few of them when Labour was in Government. In fact, some of the things we have had to fix happened when it was in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the good things with a privately run prison, from our point of view, is that we can put performance measures on it. We can have accountability that means something. When Auckland Central Remand Prison was privately run, a clause in its contract said that if there was an escape it would pay a fine of $50,000. This was at a time when there was a very high escape rate in New Zealand prisons. There was one escape from Auckland Central Remand Prison and it was fined $50,000. One of the great things was that it never happened again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226befe98ff0464c1db41b8104dea97605\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Simple but effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022232562c57bc64c31855232b9d1c9f3c3\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is very effective. Miss Sepuloni has also said that there have been cover-ups. Well, let us see the evidence of that. She has talked about wholesale privatisation. Well, we indicated that we are looking at one-tenth of our prisons being privately run, which is hardly wholesale privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI heard tonight from the Hon Lianne Dalziel about the Supreme Court of Israel. The member quite truthfully said she had not read the case, but someone had told her about it. I am sorry, but I will need a bit more evidence than that. I have never been to the State of Israel, but I am confident that our record on human rights would stack up pretty favourably against that of the State of Israel\u2014or against most other States, frankly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the cost\u2014the Labour Party goes on and on about cost\u2014we see that it is a fact that rehabilitation costs money. Auckland Central Remand Prison was contracted to perform 70,000 hours of rehabilitation when no other remand wing in this country at that stage was doing it, and, yes, it did cost. In fact, it did not just produce 70,000 hours; it produced 120,000-odd hours. It over performed and did not get paid extra for that, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EShe talked also about the loyal prison officers. It is nice to hear a member of the Opposition saying something nice about prison officers. When I became the Minister of Corrections, I was the first Minister of Corrections to ever turn up to a graduation ceremony for our loyal prison officers. Corrections Ministers under Labour, which was in Government for 9 long years, never once did so\u2014not once. So it is nice to hear that now Labour likes the prison officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson MP spoke about liberties being taken away by private prisons. Well, I have news for him; I know he is not a lawyer. It is actually the courts that remove people\u2019s liberty; the Department of Corrections does not. We just receive them. I think most of the issues have been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022d27f39e0de404902bd4e2c849a5f48b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d27f39e0de404902bd4e2c849a5f48b9\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E How funny it is to listen to this Minister, Judith Collins, talk about iwi involvement in prisons. How terrible it is to listen to her talk about how great that would be. Do we remember that when this Minister was a new MP, she went to a p\u014Dwhiri\u2014a Department of Corrections p\u014Dwhiri, if I remember correctly\u2014and she had a big \u201Cwaa\u201D because she had to sit in the second row of the p\u014Dwhiri instead of in the front row. She stormed out of the p\u014Dwhiri and made a huge big row about it all through the country. She walked out in a huff, possibly with tears streaming down her face, because she had to sit in the second row and not in the front. And here she is now, supposedly crowing about how private prisons\u2014international corporations\u2014will be able to make a wonderful profit from the imprisonment of those M\u0101ori whose p\u014Dwhiri she might have been part of. She is really pleased that international corporations will make money out of the imprisonment of M\u0101ori. Her own behaviour has clearly demonstrated her absolute failure to respect M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori process, yet she stands here and tries to say contract management is a good thing for M\u0101ori people. It is a terrible day to hear the Minister talk about that in this context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EMy colleague Nandor Tanczos and I went to visit a number of prisons, including the Auckland Central Remand Prison when it was being run by GEO Group\u2014by Wackenhut\u2014and he and I talked with Dom Karauria, who was there at the time, and with the iwi involved with the management and running of that prison. It was very innovative. The prison was a wonderful building, built with public money and designed for that purpose, and the management was very engaged with trying to find ways to involve M\u0101ori. But that came down to the fact that Dom Karauria was in charge. It had nothing to do with the ownership of the prison. It was about this one guy who had had experience in Australia of working for other prison organisations that did not have respect for indigenous people, and he himself had made a commitment to do so. Nandor and I were both very pleased to have worked with him and to have talked with him about his commitment, and we celebrated that. But that was the commitment of just one person. It had nothing to do with whether the prison was privately run or publicly run. It was because of the commitment of individuals: the people that Dom Karauria built around him to support M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt surprises me a great deal that the M\u0101ori Party, in particular, supports the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, and does not recognise that that was the case\u2014that it does not recognise the special skills of Dom Karauria, and instead buys into the misleading information and misleading rhetoric about private prisons being essentially good for indigenous people. We know that is not the case. We can look at the experience of the private prisons in Australia, and at the significant abuse and damage that is done to indigenous Australians, to Aboriginal people, in those prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228305feaf8c9848a5b5e3833ce3934938\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49ca7e27b1f453e806fa50ed55231b5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We can look at the example of the prisons that GEO/Wackenhut has operated in America, and my colleague Carmel Sepuloni has described some of those things. Again, a huge proportion of the prison population are black people, Mexicans, Hispanics, and the indigenous people of that country, as well. In those countries we can see that there has been an ongoing exploitation of indigenous communities by these companies, which make a profit from the systemic racism inherent in their legal systems. That systemic bias, that systemic racism, exists in this country as well, and the M\u0101ori Party knows that. The M\u0101ori Party knows that that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI hope that Tariana Turia is doing all right. She was reported a few months ago in the Wanganui Chronicle\u2014it should be Whanganui with an \u201Ch\u201D, I have to say\u2014talking about this issue. She stated: \u201COur people continue to go to prison, and many of them have spent a long time not functioning well in society. They need the opportunity to have their mauri ora and mana restored. No one is going to do that in a public prison.\u201D She stated: \u201CAbsolutely, we are not in this to make money. I am a firm believer in redemption.\u201D She went on to state: \u201COur people have been deeply affected by the inequalities of the system, and the current system does not address the reasons that people go to prison.\u201D She said the M\u0101ori Party support was about not just rehabilitation but also habilitation, and M\u0101ori could be part of their own solutions to these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI agree with Tariana Turia about that; M\u0101ori can be part of the solutions to imprisonment issues. The fact that more than 50 percent of the prison population is M\u0101ori is a disgrace, and more needs to be done about that. But there is nothing to prove that privately owned prisons will make any difference to that situation. In fact, if we look at the overseas evidence, we see there is ample evidence to prove that privately owned prisons will do more damage to indigenous communities. They will do significantly more damage than public prisons do to the M\u0101ori population, because of the use of that population as a cash cow with which to make money. That is the basis behind the thinking around privately owned prisons. There is money in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe prison staff who came to talk to the Law and Order Committee talked about that. They showed us that in great detail, putting themselves at risk by doing so, because one or two of these guys had worked in the private prison and they will not get a job there now, even though they knew this legislation would be passed. They came and talked to us about the financial incentives for the managers, the owners of the private prison, to avoid their obligations in order to protect their financial bottom line. They talked about incentives not to find drugs, about staff being not disciplined but encouraged to resign in order to avoid the reporting of those problems, and about inadequate drug-testing. The only way to describe it is, I guess, as the company actively hiding information in order to appear to be complying with its contract, so it will retain the performance bonus. Those are the kinds of things that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Collins, was talking about when she said privately run prisons were a good thing. The Minister said those things were good about private prisons, because they would have financial incentives to behave better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EPrivately run prisons have financial incentives to hide information. That is one reason why the Green Party will be supporting the amendment to provide for the Auditor-General to have a great deal more oversight over private prisons. There needs to be a means by which the public can investigate the financial incentives, the financial issues, behind these companies and their operations. If we do not do that, there is no means by which that can happen through the contact. The owners and managers of the private prison can hide their financial information by using commercial sensitivity as a barrier. The only way to find out whether they are incentivised to hide information, and whether they are actively preventing their staff from doing drug testing, from finding drugs, and from being involved in all of the issues that those staff brought to us will be by making the Auditor-General able to investigate those matters. That will provide the best possible level of scrutiny over those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt still remains a mystery to me as to why the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill, and why the Associate Minister of Corrections, Dr Pita Sharples, instead of supporting private prisons, was not able to negotiate with the National Government for M\u0101ori to be able to be involved in the running of public prisons. That could be done just as easily. In fact, if private prisons will comprise only 10 percent of the prison management in this country, then 90 percent of the M\u0101ori prison population will still be in the public sector. If there is no reform of the public sector, then how can we possibly expect that anything will be made better, or that anything will be done to resolve the issues around the M\u0101ori prison population? There has been no effort to deal with the public sector. What the M\u0101ori Party has done, and what the Minister has allowed to be done, is the diversion of attention, again, from the issues around the M\u0101ori prison population. The real need that should be met in the public sector is to be diverted to the private sector as some kind of panacea, or some kind of magic bullet solution, because that is what it is meant to be in the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EContract management is meant to be a magic bullet solution to the issues around dealing with the M\u0101ori prison population. It will not work for the vast majority of those M\u0101ori who are in jails. We know that jails increase recidivism and that jails cause enormous costs to wh\u0101nau, to family, and to children. None of that will be resolved through the private prisons. None of that will be resolved by the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support for this legislation. Private prisons cost more than those in the public sector. That argument is based on evidence, not on the fallacies put out by the National Government. The private sector will profit from the systemic racism in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002210d99101a2be4679b73c7ea2b8d12c7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210d99101a2be4679b73c7ea2b8d12c7d\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Anyone watching this debate from afar might be somewhat baffled, I think, by some of the arguments that have been put forward\u2014in particular, by the Government members. People would certainly be baffled by the fact that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Collins, somehow thinks that dentistry and grocery stores have some relevance and are a point of comparison for some of the arguments that we have been putting forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EGovernment members have continued to claim that the fact that some part of Labour\u2019s arguments are based on a principle, and on a principle that we hold very strongly, is somehow repugnant. I find that quite bizarre. I make no apology for the fact that we are applying a principle in this case. I make no apology for it, whatsoever. The difference between the way that we have presented our argument and the way that Government members have presented theirs is that we are willing to explore our view. We are willing to talk about where our principle comes from. We have quite clearly stated that we do not believe that the removal of someone\u2019s liberty\u2014a fundamental part of our justice system\u2014should be carried out by a private citizen. We do not believe that the removal of someone\u2019s liberty\u2014an action that is either enacted by a court or carried out on a day-to-day basis by a prison service\u2014should be put into the hands of a private citizen who enacts that action on behalf of shareholders. We do not believe that. We are fundamentally opposed to the State being directly removed from that responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI have not yet heard from the Government members a willingness to stand up and directly articulate their ideology on this bill. I have not heard from any Government member who has been willing to stand up and plainly state that he or she believes that private citizens should be able to make profit from our prison service and from this fundamental role of the State. I would be very interested as to whether any of those Government members have the same courage of conviction to stand up and directly state that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt is not just principle that we have been talking about. In this case, we are backing up our principled argument with evidence. Over and above the question of whether private companies should be operating in this role, the evidence demonstrates that in the past when we have allowed that to happen, it has not led to an improved service. In fact, it was far from it. We need only go back to a very, very basic question. It is the same kind of question that we could apply to accident compensation, for instance. Why would a private company seek a contract from the State to administer a prison unless profit was involved? We do not hold objection to the notion of profit, but we do hold objection when it comes at the cost of a fundamental service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELet me break it down. Where will the profit come from? Where is the incentive for private companies to enter into this? We have seen it before. One way to make a profit is to lower staff-to-inmate ratios. That has a natural implication: often prisons end up making lockdowns longer. There is less time out of the cells participating in things, like education, that will reintegrate a prisoner into society. Auckland Central Remand Prison was one of those that lowered its staff-to-inmate ratio, so we have the evidence already. Having fewer rehabilitative services is another way that prisons could enact a few cut-backs; a reduced range of services is another. Again, we saw the Auckland Central Remand Prison take part in that. In fact, there are reports that the Auckland Central Remand Prison refused to take prisoners after 6.30 p.m. because the majority of its staff were off shift at that point. Cuts in staff pay and conditions are also a possibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn a nutshell, profits in this case have often compromised service delivery, and this is an area where we cannot afford cut-backs in service delivery. Some of those reports came directly from prison officers who had worked at the Auckland Central Remand Prison, both when privately and when publicly managed, and they submitted that when it was privately run decisions were made on a day-to-day basis that were intended to protect the reputation of GEO Group, and to ensure that performance bonuses provided under the contract were obtained by GEO Group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00223f83e066ba6c429988ce08f043021d92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f83e066ba6c429988ce08f043021d92\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00222b24a270d13b4f2680c64e669afdcb6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b24a270d13b4f2680c64e669afdcb6b\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up on a number of points. Firstly, I will come back to the point made by David Garrett as to why private profit is not always the best thing to have in situations like this. I will do that by picking up on the points made by Sandra Goudie and the Minister, the Hon Judith Collins, which basically seem to say we should do this just to have a try at it\u2014we should give it a go and see what happens. It seems to me to be a cavalier approach to making public policy. Give it a go! This a laudable Kiwi attitude. It has done us well in the bush, on the sports field, and in those sorts of things, but I would suggest that it is not a good principle for developing public policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EPublic policy has for a long time understood the importance of separating the powers. This Parliament does not make decisions about individual court cases, for very good reason. There are a whole range of things where we separate the powers. Parliament has separated its power from the executive for very good reasons. Parliament should not try to run things. We separate the powers of the Minister and the chief executive for very good reasons. There are accountability reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOne of the important points about this is that in having the State itself run the prisons, there is no opportunity whatsoever for private interests to get into play with the operations of a prison. I will give a very good example, and that was in the United States, where recently a judge had thousands of decisions overturned because the judge was making decisions about where prisoners were being sent and for how long, and they were going to a prison in which he had private interests. His private interests overlapped with his public policy duty. If we have private prisons we put that principle at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3f61169a5d4e22a6f821891dbfef00\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: How many corrupt judges are there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225c0a53afca74e20a6e64ad9165aa048\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can interject as much as he likes, but by ensuring\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228240eb110cae42d9b81ec7136f7cc490\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: And he will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71eb9553dab43e1bb6788a31c807363\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which my good colleague here, Chris Hipkins, has said\u2014that the incarceration of prisoners is done by the State, there can be no private interests, and there can be no profit motive in it. When we have contracted out we have allowed people who have private interests whilst carrying out public duties to have an overlap of interests, and these are not always good things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESecondly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd67ace02d646a69323cdc436ca6c7b\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Chubb does that, doesn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022771b330a7e7a4ef8ba14de6dcdc90ba7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me just deal with Chubb. Chubb runs a few buses and trucks around the place. It does not carry all the prisoners. It was there long before the Labour Government was in place, and it is not responsible for the prisoners. Chubb is effectively a specialist taxi service. A prison has control of the prisoners 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. It has absolute control of them. It picks a person up and takes him or her to another place where he or she is then placed in the control of the police, who have absolute control of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe point I will come back to is about the role of Parliament and the Auditor-General in ensuring that these things are done properly. This is a fundamental weakness. What the Minister is saying to us is that the chief executive and the monitors and auditors whom the chief executive appoints should offer this Parliament sufficient assurance. I say to the Minister that the interests of the chief executive can overlap with the interests of the particular prison. No chief executive will allow a contract to be arranged where one will say after a short period of time that this is a failure, this is wrong, and it has gone terribly bad, because it reflects badly on him or her. The chief executive will be very tolerant of any private contractors, because their success will reflect on him or her personally\u2014a contractor\u2019s failure will reflect on the chief executive badly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAs we heard in evidence before the select committee, the private prison that we have tried in New Zealand was massaging its figures. There is no doubt that it was massaging its figures with the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022910ffb011201470cb8a80ad40cacb8ae\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: There were allegations. We did not hear evidence. Get one of the lawyers to explain the difference between allegations and evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e611ded3b345a59a8ecc4bfb0ae442\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We heard directly from the people who turned up, at a risk to themselves, and they told the select committee. I have no reason to disbelieve them. There were a number of them, and they said that they were massaging the figures. They massaged the figures because that was in the interests of their profit-driven employer. The interests of the chief executive and the contractor do overlap. The interests overlap in that they do both have a commitment to ensuring that they can show a success on paper. That is why this Parliament should have an independent oversight of that through its auditor, our Parliament\u2019s auditor, the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00226e563145f7bd4fc6a4243e3d239f343e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e563145f7bd4fc6a4243e3d239f343e\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002240c6f67c494046909e6599474c9565aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c6f67c494046909e6599474c9565aa\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It has come up over and over again, but we cannot say it enough: one of the main reasons that Labour members oppose the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill is that we believe that prisons are a core function of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8f38320cea438fb575ac579041e635\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh God.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff27a5ed058d4f9d8a1f222d53b42d6c\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: They groan whenever we say that. Do members know why the Government members groan? They groan because they do not understand what we mean when we say that prisons are a core responsibility or core function of the State. The reason they do not understand what we mean is they would quite happily privatise anything. They would quite happily privatise all the functions of the State\u2014education, prisons, health, accident compensation, and perhaps even our welfare system. Who knows? They are quite happy to privatise. They do not understand what a function of the State is. That is one of the reasons why Labour members oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe understand, given some of the things that have happened in the last year since this Government came in, why the Minister of Corrections and the National Government would want to shift the responsibility for this function. We understand, given what has gone on under their watch. Let us look at what happened over the last year that might explain why the Minister and the Government want to shift responsibility for our prisons, to hand over the accountability to private managers. Let us look at what happened. Under the Minister of Corrections\u2019 watch over the last year, two prisoners broke out of a police van at Palmerston North District Court on 15 January. Three remand prisoners broke out of a prison van in Hamilton on 19 January. \u0102rai Hema fled from an outside work party at Auckland\u2019s P\u0101remoremo prison on 21 January. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cdd5eed414c4720b91f408ff54f630f\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Hello? We\u2019re doing Corrections, not the Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6daa6f455445109e6641f19721ef3b\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member that she should hang on\u2014there is a lot more to go. I might have to take two calls on this one. Storm Hughes fled from a work party outside the Spring Hill Corrections Facility in North Waikato on 11 February. Robert John Wikaere escaped from Te Awamutu\u2019s Waikeria Prison on 17 March. Ollies Siaea walked out of the Manukau District Court after he claimed to be another prisoner on bail, on 20 March. Three prisoners were caught on a roof at Mount Crawford prison on 13 September, trying to jump over a prison wall. A fourth who had already managed to successfully escape that way was caught by police less than an hour later. William Katip\u0101, aged 43, escaped from a medium-security unit at Waikeria Prison after scaling a security fence on 29 September 2009. On 23 October, police were seeking help in locating Ernie O\u2019Neal Paul, a high-risk offender, who was wanted for breach of bail. Christopher Watkins, 46, escaped from Tongariro/Rangip\u014D Prison on 22 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThese things happen, and they are happening more so\u2014the research shows this. All of the submissions that came through the selection process, except for the one made by GEO Group, supported what Labour members are saying. These things happen more in private prisons, but the point of difference is that when prisons are privatised the Government no longer has to be accountable for them. The Government can put the blame entirely on the private company that is managing the prison. We can see why the Minister would like to shift the responsibility. The Government does not want to take responsibility for this. It would rather see the private companies cop the flak, so that it is not the Government that is held to account by New Zealanders. That is the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will go back to the proposition that private prisons are safer, better, and cheaper. Everything that has come up tonight from this side of the Chamber, and from my Green colleagues, demonstrates that they are not safer, better, and cheaper. As my Green colleague Metiria Turei said earlier, in respect of prisons, all of a sudden the Minister of Corrections is concerned about iwi. This issue was discussed in the submissions, as well. We saw a submission from prison officers who had worked in both State-run prisons and the Auckland Central Remand Prison when it was under private management. They said that cultural factors were not taken into account when that prison was privately run. They brought up the fact that at one point Australian prison officers were brought over to New Zealand to work in the prison. There were issues with regard to how much they were being paid compared with our local prison officers. There were issues with regard to the ability of the Australian prison officers to understand the cultural background of some prisoners. They gave examples in respect of Pacific Island prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc5a31822bdf436f87e2504da3aedd57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc5a31822bdf436f87e2504da3aedd57\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75b7175dfc942f894fdd99d2f1ab57a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75b7175dfc942f894fdd99d2f1ab57a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I will come back to some of the technical provisions of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. I have a number of points that I am hoping the Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, will address. I turn to new section 198, \u201CManagement of prisons under contract\u201D, set out in clause 5. The point I was beginning to raise, when I so unfortunately ran out of time, concerned the criteria the Minister will use when determining whether a prison should be put out to private contract, and what process there would be around public consultation in doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned in her speech that she envisaged that 10 percent of current prisons, if I understood her correctly, would be put out to contract management. I think that a number of New Zealanders who live in areas where there are existing prisons will be interested to know how the Minister will determine which prisons will be put out to contract and which ones will not be. The bill is completely silent on that point. The only thing that new section 198 does is allow the chief executive of the Department of Corrections to put any prison out to contract management with the Minister\u2019s prior written consent. It does not give any criteria or establish any grounds upon which the Minister will give that consent. I think probably the Minister in the chair will be the Minister who would make those determinations, so I will be very interested to hear exactly how she will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI represent the Rimutaka electorate, which shares its name with the country\u2019s largest prison, Rimutaka Prison. The vast majority of constituents\u201478 percent, I think\u2014who completed the constituency survey that I put out were opposed to having a contract manager for Rimutaka Prison. Interestingly enough, though, there was some support amongst the local population for expanding Rimutaka Prison, which surprised me. It is not that Rimutaka constituents are anti-prison\u2014we appreciate that we need a prison\u2014it is that the vast majority of residents are opposed to the idea that it should be run by a contractor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d675a65eff4b7f9e68530a72dfb7a5\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Not going to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de2d2147cefc44ecb899d5c6d9dd8aaf\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is not going to do that. I wonder whether, for the sake of the residents of my electorate, the Minister may stand up to take a brief call and put that on the record of the House. The Minister has at least indicated to me, before all these witnesses, that she is not going to put out Rimutaka Prison to private contract. I am very heartened by that, and I thank her. But I imagine that every other area in the country that has a prison will want to know whether their prison could be put out to private contract. New section 198 is very silent on that point. I am pleased that the Minister has obviously thought about whether Rimutaka Prison would be put out to private contract, but I would quite like to hear about the other prisons in the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI turn to new section 199(1)(c)(ii), set out in clause 5. It talks about \u201Csufficient suitable staff members to enable the contractor to carry out the contractor\u2019s statutory and contractual obligations in relation to the prison;\u201D. Obviously, the Minister will be involved in determining what goes into these contracts when she is dealing with the chief executive, who will have the primary responsibility. One of the questions that I have is whether she would envisage, for example, minimum staffing levels being in a contract. If, hypothetically, Rimutaka Prison were to be contracted out\u2014and I accept the Minister\u2019s word that she will not do that\u2014the people in my electorate would want to know that any private contractor of Rimutaka Prison had some specified minimum staffing levels that it had to meet. Obviously the safety of the people who work in the prison and the safety of the people in the community around the prison is very much dependent on the number of staff who work in the prison. I would like to know a little more from the Minister as to how she envisages the requirement under the provisions of that new section being put into practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI turn to new section 199(3), set out in clause 5, which is basically a catch-all provision for any other provisions that the chief executive and the contractor see fit. The bill provides a fairly comprehensive range of criteria that any contractor will have to cover. I wonder whether this section is necessary, and, if necessary, what types of clauses and provisions the Minister envisages being captured by it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe final point I raise concerns new section 199B, set out in clause 5, which limits the liability of the Crown in relation to the contractor. In particular, this section provides that the Crown is entitled to be indemnified by the contractor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec22e14ccef14ccbb5bb244c54f81395\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec22e14ccef14ccbb5bb244c54f81395\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I know that I have Labour Party colleagues who have not yet had the opportunity to make a contribution to the debate on the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, so I appreciate the opportunity to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI refer to a comment that the Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, made. She compared a prison to a grocery store or the local dairy down the road. I do not know what a Minister of Corrections\u2014a Minister who is responsible for one of the most serious parts of the Public Service, and responsible for the policy that deals with some of the most serious issues of safety and the rehabilitation of those who are involved in criminal offending\u2014could possibly have in her mind such that she could compare a prison to a grocery store. I guess that is just what we have to live with, with a National Government that puts a person who would think like that in a position of such responsibility. There has been some discussion\u2014[Interruption] The Minister herself said it. If the public are to have any sense of security about who is running the policy behind one of the most important parts of the Public Service and the machinery of Government, it is important that they know. If the Minister is prepared to stand up in this Chamber and compare prisons to grocery stores, be it on her own head if other members in this Chamber then make it obvious\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e787865ea9b74ccd86607de58ff3bb2b\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about apples and apples, and apples and oranges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebba46b31827437bae361a0d2abfa9ae\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, she was talking about apples and apples, and apples and oranges. It is her own fault if other MPs make sure that that is highlighted for the information of the public. It is, after all, their community. It is, after all, their machinery of the State that is being messed around with by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of discussion about the economics of private prisons. We know for a fact that private prisons are more expensive in this country. We know from research overseas that there has been a failure of private prisons either to be cheaper or to both return quality services and be cheaper. The United States Department of Justice report that I have referred to in other contexts, Emerging Issues on Privatized Prisons, clearly showed that the privatisation models simply mimicked the public sector in practically every way, essentially saying that there was no innovation at all in the private sector. All of the new innovation and all of the new ideas were coming out of the public sector, and they were simply mimicked by the private provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe report also said that promises that were made by private companies in the US of 20 percent savings did not happen. Those savings were not provided, despite all of the promises. Although there were some modest savings of less than 20 percent, they were made by reducing staff conditions and other labour-related costs. The Minister said earlier that one of her priorities was keeping staff safe, but we know that the policy of the Minister and the Government includes double-bunking, for example. She is now engaging with private prisons, where staff will find it more difficult to work in an environment where their conditions and their pay are the priority. They will not be the priority for the private company; the bottom line will be the priority for the private company. The way the company gets access to a bigger bottom line, to more profit, will be hidden from the public. One of the things that will be hidden from the public is the staffing conditions and wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe can see that that is the case not only in the evidence from the United States Department of Justice but also in reports from Australia. The \u201CPrivatisation and New South Wales Prisons: Value for Money and Neo-liberal Regulation\u201D report showed that privatisation in New South Wales did not result in value for money or a significant reduction in cost. So even closer to home, just in Australia, we know that the economic arguments do not pan out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett was yelling out earlier about how staff of the GEO Group - run Auckland Central Remand Prison brought to the select committee views and information that there was hiding of their contractual requirements in order to avoid getting fines and penalties for failing to meet those requirements. He said there was no evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00226608a6ae42ab4d049bd98798b31832ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226608a6ae42ab4d049bd98798b31832ba\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229269530589d849fdbf6991713f372b41\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022798ff39c7c024e6abec89051ecdac776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022798ff39c7c024e6abec89051ecdac776\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I was out in the lobby when I heard the closure motion being moved by the Government. It is standard practice for the Government to begin to move closure motions, but the House is in urgency on this matter. We have completed Part 1 in Committee faster than we would have done under ordinary time for a bill where the main policy decisions are in Part 1. Under urgency normally there is a longer period for the Committee to consider that part of a bill. This is faster than normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00229baee558517349f2801bc9d2d2c910dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229baee558517349f2801bc9d2d2c910dc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly thank the member for his comments, and I have taken them into account. We have gone for an hour and 43 minutes on this. I have a list of who has spoken. There has been a lot of repetition; there has not been any new material that has come out in the last 40 minutes. I decided to accept the closure, and I have put the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227d62874d5c9942d388af84d1b3ea87e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d62874d5c9942d388af84d1b3ea87e9\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I realise that you have to take into account a number of factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075da64b9fb0458fb39efe8395eb0182\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d87746726a4e788ea82a5ac39ad127\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: There are members who have been calling who have not had the chance to contribute to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df066eec256c410893abbd531a727cdb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand, but I have ruled. We have Part 2 coming up, and then we have the other\u2014[Interruption] I have ruled! We have Part 2, we have the commencement, and the other debates are still to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002209b77f8b9ce24d8dba186c64c7ac03f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209b77f8b9ce24d8dba186c64c7ac03f6\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0bf8902ebf4bae933d841067f3e5a4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I hope you are not going to litigate the decision I have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bf9ae77c9d4138be4f71677fa94d4a\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I am reluctant to do it, but we are in urgency. I think you have truncated this bill; all of the policy decisions are in Part 1. I move, That the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5e272ef2a544126a1fc956a38df2806\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002245c9703129c5487089c739da94c165d9\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00224a0b093baff54294a4e9e5a7732fdd38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a0b093baff54294a4e9e5a7732fdd38\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker has been recalled because Opposition members and the senior Labour Whip, the Hon Darren Hughes, believe they had other members who wished to speak, and that I did not give adequate time for Opposition members to be part of the debate. My reasoning for accepting the closure motion was that this debate had been going for an hour and 43 minutes. Twelve Labour members, three Green members, and two Government members had spoken, and the Minister had spoken three times. There was a lot of repetition; no new material was being debated. It was my view that the debate had run its course. I accepted the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226eaac678eeec4defbe3c389713f1ad66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eaac678eeec4defbe3c389713f1ad66\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, you have been recalled on the motion of the Opposition, which is not something that we have at all made a practice of. The reason is that in the normal course of parliamentary business there is an unspoken tariff for how long a Committee stage should take and how long the debate on parts should take. The formula is set down in both Speakers\u2019 Rulings and the Standing Orders. There is also an understanding between the Government and the Opposition about how long the debate on different parts should take. In urgency it has always been accepted that a longer period will be given, for the fact that normally Parliament would be moving through on a much slower process. Urgency brings that into a much tighter focus. A longer period of time is normally allowed for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhat makes it so critical on this particular bill is that the bulk of the bill sits in Part 1. The bill makes enormous changes to an important part of the State\u2019s responsibility, putting aside the different political differences. Everyone agrees that this is important legislation. We believed that there were members on this side who had not been given a chance to make a contribution. The presiding officer is under no obligation to call every single member, but there were members who had been called ahead of those who had not yet made a contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Opposition has put up amendments to this part\u2014not a ridiculous number in order to slow things but a serious number for a bill on which there are sharp differences across the House. Government members began taking the closure motion quite early, and it is well within their rights to use their call in that respect. But we would assert that the Chairman accepted the closure motion far too early, given the importance of the bill, the fact that the House is in urgency, the fact that members of the Opposition had not spoken, and the fact that we have put up amendments that we wish to speak to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225bf7bc9671524ab188782f7a4384f142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bf7bc9671524ab188782f7a4384f142\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I have been watching proceedings this evening from my office in the Beehive. I think the difficulty we have here is that the presiding officer has made a determination about the value of the debate continuing. I think it would be very unfortunate if that were to be in any way discussed or, should I say, overturned as a decision. There may be a way through this matter, though, because I do appreciate that members have pretty strong views on this issue. It is probably one of the strongest ideological divides that we have had in the House almost all year. I think it is important that all views are canvassed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI suggest, Mr Speaker, that you make your decision based on the pleadings that are in front of you. I suggest that if the whips were to confer, we may well be able to make the debate on the next two parts quite wide ranging, with the questions taken at the end of that. That would facilitate people being able to express their views, without impugning the integrity of the officer in the Chair who has made, in his opinion, a proper decision that the Committee should accept with regard to the debate so far. If the Committee grants leave for the debate to be wide ranging, then that is another matter. I do not know what the shadow Leader of the House thinks, but we may confer and be able to come to some arrangement around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002289204ebba7774aab94f9db3b66f5a491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289204ebba7774aab94f9db3b66f5a491\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for their contribution. Let me address these matters in no particular order of importance, starting with the last point. Of course, the Speaker cannot make an assumption based on an interaction between whips, or anything else, but I think the House is appreciative of the comments made by the Leader of the House, the Hon Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWith regard to the expectation about how much of an urgency motion will be devoted to a debate, that is the sole prerogative of the presiding officer. Irrespective of the stage a bill is at, it has always been tradition that members who would like to continue to debate have to, by their actions, persuade the presiding officer that the debate will be relevant, not repetitious, and a whole range of other things. It is solely the presiding officer who determines whether to accept a closure motion at a particular time. Ultimately, the test is when the House has to vote on that motion. There have been times when closure motions have been defeated. When the House has seven parties, as it does now, that is more likely to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI will acquaint the House with a couple of Speakers\u2019 rulings that I think are quite pertinent on this occasion. Speakers\u2019 ruling 77/1 states: \u201CThe chairperson is judge of all matters arising in committee, and the Speaker will not interfere \u2026\u201D. The ruling goes on with some points about that. There is particular reference to closure in Speakers\u2019 rulings 65/3 and 65/4. Speakers\u2019 ruling 65/3 states: \u201CThe [chairperson] is the sole judge as to whether or not he ought to sanction the putting of the closure motion, and it must be left entirely in his hands. The [chairperson], who has been presiding and has listened to the debate in committee, must be the best judge whether the closure ought to be put.\u201D There is a bit of a rider: \u201CI can only express the hope that it will not be applied too harshly.\u201D The Leader of the House has given some indication that there is some flexibility to address the desire of the House, going forward. In that case, I report to the House that I will not interfere with any decision made by the Chairperson in determining whether the closure motion should be put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f472e4c5f504ff28e4e1434fa40bdb2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001197\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297c0f50f5b484ac7822f05dd00e96eb4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to allow contract management of prisons (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220da16aef19cf4dfab84fb438615d434c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001199\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 86 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204cb7e4c4b5d43e3aedb1c36dcfb1a23\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001200\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 87 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271985fa9fdad430f8d2a2fe05f81d73d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001201\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 88 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fcf5a28649054c7eae5c2ad7c5073656\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226bef1ef0356b4b7d9be097fb814ed473\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ab12e1dbef4a28ac970962c50326af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ab12e1dbef4a28ac970962c50326af\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for Part 2 and clauses 1, 2, and 3 to be taken as one debate, with all the arrangements that previously existed for speaking times; for the debate from this point to be a wide-ranging debate across the full scope of the bill; and for two questions to be posed upon closure of the debate so that we vote on the provisions consecutively. In the meantime, let us debate freely the matters covered in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ce23846d51449594799aec47ac6824\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. I remind members what this means. We will debate Part 2, which comprises clauses 7 and 8 and the schedule, and clauses 1, 2, and 3. This will be a wide-ranging debate. As agreed earlier today, members may take two consecutive calls of 5 minutes each in order to make a 10-minute call\u2014that is what we have agreed to. Are we all comfortable with that? Very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022284a5a8b0ce54a2cad71ce3b89dc4d2c\u0022\u003EPart 2, schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5384254df14b6a9f2f1c5827f9462f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5384254df14b6a9f2f1c5827f9462f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Chair and the Leader of the House for allowing us to continue this very important debate. I am very pleased to take a call. I was not able to take a call in the debate on Part 1, but I am very happy to be able to do so now because I have a number of concerns and questions for the Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, that I hope she will take the time to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI endorse the comments made by my colleagues thus far\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8c995dc4644e90b053ea98367c7f02\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: She knows about everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d4b3602f8b49aab82e07870d81c327\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Bridges that I just care about everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbcd63443cfb4dbd9fc3d1eb7e3d93e8\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a beautiful thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb96f8ec2984d929e2894ab50882c94\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what the Labour Party is about; we think about people other than ourselves. That is where I am going with this. I want to comment on one of the things Sandra Goudie said when she got up. She went on about how important competition is in innovation in the prison sector, and how important innovation is within our prison system for getting great new ideas. Evidence from around the world has shown that although private companies are very, very keen on showing how great they are when they are trying to get a contract, there is no competition when it comes to follow-on contracts. In fact, the bill, as far as I am aware, does not even stipulate a length of contract time. So on the one hand we have a situation that my colleagues have outlined where a private prison management company could get a contract for 50 years, then it all goes pear-shaped, the Government needs to get out of the contract, and it will have to pay out for a very, very long contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228967f90d05764ede9012054f5fdc57d1\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88f4ee6a8f344cab9940cba587a88ec\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; it is taxpayers who will pay for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe flip side of that argument is that when there are short-term contracts, the contracts are not given to other companies. There is no competition overseas when it comes to follow-on contracts. There are arguments about how great it is that sustained competition throughout the sector will create these wondrous results, but that does not actually happen. It only occurs at the point when companies are trying to grab contracts, and then it all falls by the wayside and follow-on contracts often do not follow. That is what evidence from overseas has shown, and I would like to know what protections have been put in this legislation to make sure that the claimed benefits of this law will eventuate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThere are also concerns that the quality of these services may be reduced in an effort to maximise profits. I know that National members have rubbished this argument, but it is an incredibly important point. I point out that private companies are fundamentally responsible to their shareholders. More than that, they would be acting against their fiduciary duties if they engaged in projects that they knew would disadvantage their shareholders. To me, that seems very much to run against the public interest in prisons being run properly. I would like the Minister\u2019s comments on that as well. If these private companies are required to maximise profits for their shareholders, how does that sit well with the public need for safety and the levels that the public may be expecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI also know that the ACT member David Garret rubbished Labour members for saying that private prisons are bad by saying we are just ideologically opposed. I am, and I am quite open about that. I think that it should be the State that incarcerates people, not private companies. I think it is particularly repugnant to be making money off imprisoning people, and the evidence backs that up as well. I am one of those people who think we should have an evidence-based approach to these things and in the area of law and order under this Government we absolutely have the opposite. I believe the evidence does not back that up. I want to say to the ACT member in particular that even if he does not believe in that moral argument\u2014and of course ACT does not\u2014how does he feel about a situation where the privatising of a prison may jeopardise public safety if there is a major emergency, a riot, a breakout, or a strike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ca86e9431e4c8b9fd09d3da4027fb8\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, put the notes down. Say something you think yourself!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba735d5db9114f8ea305fa3d7bcaf5db\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Brownlee that I want to get it right because he is here, and I really respect him and want to impress him. Government-run institutions are able to more effectively coordinate safety measures and emergency procedures than private companies. This is an important point and I would like the Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, to explain what she is doing to ensure that the private companies will have the same contact and the same ability to respond to an emergency as the State system, because that has been a concern overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI notice that clause 199H of the bill, \u201CControl of contract prison in emergency\u201D, raises another issue: where there are concerns about public safety or other matters, or emergencies, the chief executive of the Department of Corrections can step in and take over. That raises the question that when things are going great, the private prison gets to keep the profit, but when things go pear-shaped the State has to step in, pay the money, and clean up the mess. How is that a good deal for the taxpayers of New Zealand? We saw this in the United Kingdom, where a private prison company got into significant trouble within months of opening. It made all these claims about all the wonderful things it could do and all the targets it could meet. Within months the company had practically fallen over and it was the UK taxpayer and the UK prison system that had to step in to clean up the mess and pay for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have another case here of privatising the profits and socialising the losses. I would really appreciate the Minister\u2019s comments on that as well, because it is an important point. There is also the issue, which members have rubbished but it has happened in the United States, that it creates opportunities for corruption such as bribes, kickbacks, and political promises. We have seen political parties get a lot of money from these private prison organisations. They come up with \u201Ctough on law and order\u201D policies, because the more people there are in prison the more money those organisations get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIf we look at Pennsylvania in the United States, we see an absolutely terrible case that happened in 2007. Judges were being paid to put children into correctional facilities because the correctional facilities were privately run and the more children they had, the more money they got. One kid threw a sandal at her mother, I think, and ended up being put into a correctional facility because the judge was getting a kickback. I ask the Minister what there is in this legislation to make sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220712e482912a44219c93ea8b5db2179c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Where was this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce510163c2e447597cbcdd59f67d65a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it was in the United States, in Pennsylvania, in 2007\u2014it does not happen here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBefore I finish, I want to read a submission. We have heard a lot about New South Wales and a lot about Australia, and I thought this submission was particularly good. Do members know who the submission is from? It is from the Police Association of New South Wales and this is what it had to say this year in its submission on the privatisation of prisons: \u201CPrivate companies fundamentally are responsible to their shareholders to generate a profit on funds invested. Indeed, company directors would be acting contrary to their fiduciary duties if they were engaged in projects they knew would be likely to not be profitable. It cannot be said that the interests of the shareholders and the public interest may always coincide\u2014indeed all too often we know that this is not the case. The current world economic crisis is as a direct result of the clash of interests of private organizations and the general public.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat raises a number of questions that I would also like to ask the Minister. What will suffer as a result of the need to make a profit? How can there be a guarantee that corners will not be cut to meet the economic demands of making a profit for shareholders? If contracted services are remunerated on the basis of the size of the prison population, what incentives would there be for the provider to rehabilitate offenders? Will the financial imperatives of filling prisons lead to overcrowding? How does the provider become accountable beyond the terms of the contracts and contract law? Private contractors are insulated from public scrutiny; they are not subject to the same controls and oversights that apply to the Government and public sector employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIs there a real possibility that the safety of both inmates and the public will be jeopardised through inadequate staffing, training, and resources in order to increase profit margins? Will there be a higher staff turnover with private contractors meaning less experienced staff with less preparedness to respond to riots, fires, and escapes, and what is the increased risk of opportunities for corruption within private companies that are not subjected to the very rigorous oversight and training of government prison officials? And what is the risk and potential impact if the private company goes bankrupt? Those were the questions put by the Police Association of New South Wales and I think they are questions that deserve to be answered before any member of this Chamber supports this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett and the Minister in the chair said we should just give it a go and see how it goes. We are not talking about changing one\u2019s hair colour or about getting a new haircut. We are talking about a significant shift in the way we run corrections facilities in this country. We are talking about a system that overseas has seen increased violence and prison deaths, and lower reporting. If something is not reported, the private company does not get pinged with the penalties and we have seen lower reporting in the private sector. Ten out of the 11 worst prisons in the UK were private prisons. I visited Her Majesty\u2019s Inspectorate of Prisons for England and Wales when I was over there and I was told that the private prisons were diabolically bad and they cut corners at any cost. When MPs go through them the red carpet is rolled out and they are shown everything they want to see. It is like when we get that Microsoft Windows demonstration software that is nothing like the real thing. When we finally purchase the real thing it is very, very different. We were told \u201CDon\u2019t go there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00227f9c7d03e76a4f1689320b4a1c904aa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f9c7d03e76a4f1689320b4a1c904aa9\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E The private management of prisons is a forward step to improve our prisons, to encourage innovation in ways in which we can ensure a better result for all New Zealanders, which is why we are in Government and others are not. Private prison management provides an opportunity for innovation and service delivery, which will support better outcomes for M\u0101ori and Pasifika, and the public. Provisions will also be included in contracts for each prison to respond to the unique needs of people. Other significant nations have taken this step some time ago, and I mention a comment made by Mr Mel Smith, a former Ombudsman: \u201CI can say categorically that the ACRP was very well managed, and certainly lost nothing in comparison with overseas examples in Australia, the USA and Great Britain.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI want to speak about what has been presented to us by members of the Opposition regarding the core function of State. They have said it is their philosophy that the incarceration of prisoners is a core responsibility of the State and should not be contracted out. That view is obviously not supported in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, the United Kingdom, and the USA. Those states and nations are very similar to us here in New Zealand. One could equally say that health and education services should be the core function of State, because these are human rights, yet we see and accept private providers. What about one of the most important of all needs: feeding the population. Should that not be a core function of State? Well, Labour Governments have told us what we can eat and what we cannot eat; that is about as close as we allowed them to get. What about housing New Zealanders? Should that not be a core function of State? Where does it stop? That is the question. The truth of the matter is that in the modern world all these essential provisions come as a mix of private and public provisions. What makes a prisoner any more important than a law-abiding citizen, to attract such support from the Labour Party? Is it the fact that prisoners have lost their freedom? What about the loss of freedom felt by the victims of their crime? We need to understand that a private manager has only delegated authority to act on behalf of the State. To say that a private manager is incarcerating a prisoner is a mistruth. The fact is that Parliament in its laws and the courts in the enactment of those laws incarcerate a crime-breaker. What the Minister of Corrections has said in presenting this legislation is that in order to deliver the best corrections system for New Zealand, this Government believes that we should not limit our choices. By changing the legislation to allow private management of prisons we are giving ourselves a choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThis legislation is not about the Government offering profits to private enterprise. This legislation is about seeking best outcomes for the New Zealand taxpayer, which may or may not be about costs. Let us talk about quality. A reported comment from Te W\u0101rena Taua, who chaired a group that represented six iwi in a formal relationship discussion with Australasian Correctional Management, said that under a contract with a private provider \u201Cwe have seen more progress and innovation in a prison than we have seen in decades from the public prison service. The private management of prisons does lead to innovation in management. This is a good example of that particular case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ELet me just read out a quote from a Labour MP from Great Britain Gerry Sutcliffe. He said: \u201CThe first private prison opened in 1992, and there are now 11 such prisons operating in England and Wales holding about 10 per cent of the prison population.\u201D Listen to what he says: \u201CThe companies that provide those services have developed a strong track record of delivery and are driving forward the decency agenda, as well as introducing innovation and increasing value for money in public sector prisons.\u201D Members opposite do not want to hear that. \u201CMartin Narey, the former director general of the Prison Service, has said that if it had not been for the private sector, the decency agenda would not have moved at the pace that it has.\u201D To say that private management of prison is all about profits is obviously and totally incorrect. Labour says that profit motives will compromise service quality. The evidence is to the contrary. In fact, Gerry Sutcliffe from the UK went on to say that there were \u201Cbarriers to the best provider being selected.\u201D This legislation will remove the barriers so that merit can be the determining factor instead of monopoly. Prison staff also have the comfort that this bill ensures that their superannuation entitlements will be protected, if they move to work for a private manager of a prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI think that Labour members have somehow become lost in the fog of their ideology. I respect that they have that view but I just disagree with it. They have lost perspective on what really counts. It is not about who provides; it is about what is provided and also for what cost. It is not about the cheapest; it is about the best outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fccecbdbac6494592e7577691a547ab\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about transparency and being accountable. That should be the test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf24f03c605243c6b1f10e2da39f965a\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Let me tell members opposite what their leader, Phil Goff, said. He agrees with us. He said: \u201CThe point I am making is that it does not matter a damn whether one has private or public prisons in that sense. What really matters is the way in which those prisons are operated.\u201D That sounds sensible. I do not think that members opposite have an open mind to consider the opportunities that this bill will present. The concerns that they have are answered in the proposed legislation. The requirements of prison management contracts are covered in new section 199 in clause 5. Subclause (1) states: \u201CEvery prison management contract must provide for\u2014(a) objectives and performance standards for the contractor in relation to the management of the prison that are no lower than the standards applicable to prisons managed by the department; and (b) objectives and performance standards for the contractor in relation to the management and care of prisoners in the prison that are no lower than the standards applicable to prisoners in prisons managed by the department;\u201D. I believe that this is solid legislation. I believe that this legislation opens up opportunities for innovation to come through. We know that improvement always comes when contestability is able to be entered into, and we also understand that a monopoly closes that down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThere is accountability in this legislation. The commentary notes the amendment to clause 5 where it replaces section 199E(1): \u201CThis amendment would require the chief executive to appoint at least one monitor to each privately-managed prison, and allow the appointment of one or more additional monitors to assist that monitor.\u201D As the Minister has said, those monitors are moved around from prison to prison so they do not become captured. I remember that when I was a teacher, many, many years ago, these monitors, whom we would call \u201Cinspectors\u201D would come to look at what we were doing, and there certainly was a very strong degree of independence in their work. Labour members are concerned about what they state is a lack of accountability and transparency. They state that the Auditor-General\u2019s office and the Office of the Ombudsmen will not be able to hold a private manager to account. Let me just explain, once again, that these people are \u201Cacting\u201D as delegated authority under the chief executive, that they have contracts with provisions, that there are very strict criteria, and that there are ample opportunities for wide scope for accountability in this bill. The Auditor-General\u2019s office stated to the Law and Order Committee that additional power to access information was not necessary for the office to obtain information from a privately managed prison, as it already had the power to do so. We do not hear that point from the Opposition\u2014that the Auditor-General\u2019s office is already satisfied that it has ample provision to be able to get the information that it requires to hold privately managed prisons to account. Other significant nations have taken this step some time ago. It is time for us, as well. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00223730975458aa4ba5a0826c3a12524654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223730975458aa4ba5a0826c3a12524654\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I am very grateful to the Leader of the House and our chief whip for negotiating the opportunity to have a debate such as this. Everyone has said it, and it is true: there is a huge philosophical divide between the two sides of the House on this matter. The National Government seems to have it fixed in its mind that if it is public, it is bad; if it is private, it is good. The Labour Party, on the other hand, takes a different view. We say that if it is public, it is good; and if it is private, it is good in its place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba4aae99a024d978a0b3018d9f272d9\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t like privatisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229814fe5310f64205822a4e5d10749d72\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I actually do not think that anyone on the other side heard what I said. I said that on this side of the House we tend to believe that when it is public, it is good; when it is private, it is good in its place. We are not debating the efficiency of business generally. That is not what this debate is about, from the philosophical point of view. Those who claim that members on this side of the House do not understand business are not picking up on the essential point that we are making. We are challenging the very use of private business to undertake the nature of this work. That is what we are challenging, and that is a fundamental difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut I will get on to the efficiency of this business anyway, because it does not stack up even on that ground. In terms of dealing with the philosophical divide we have here, we have heard members opposite absolutely mock the concept of the State. We have heard the ACT Party come to the fore, as usual, and say that the State really has no core function, at all, and that anything the State does can be contracted out. Government members simply do not accept that there are certain core functions that should never be contracted out from the State. They are absolutely clear-cut about their view. We had a lecture from David Garrett. It was interesting to be lectured by someone who touted the fact that he completed his law degree some time after I did at Canterbury University. He mocked the landmark ruling of the Supreme Court of Israel by pointing out that it does not appear in our hierarchy of courts. Well, hello! He obviously was at law school, because to know that takes exceptional intellect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe point I was trying to make\u2014and I think the one he deliberately ignored\u2014was the potential impact of that decision across jurisprudence internationally. I think that it has an incredible capacity for making a significant change. In fact, the article I was quoting from said that the ruling would be studied not only in Israel but that it will also doubtless generate a conceptual revolution worldwide. I think that is absolutely true. I think it is unfortunate that we have not had any debate about this in the House, in the context of what we are talking about here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe petition that started this particular case argued two things. It argued that transferring prison powers to private hands would violate the prisoners\u2019 fundamental human rights to liberty and dignity and, second, that a private organisation would always aim to maximise profit\u2014and, yes, that is what private organisations are designed to do\u2014and would therefore seek to cut costs by, for instance, skimping on prison facilities and paying its guards poorly, thus further undermining the prisoners\u2019 rights. I think these are serious issues that the court was required to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen considering this particular matter, the president of the court stated that normally the court would not intervene in economic policies decided upon by Cabinet, and the Parliament in Israel in that particular case, and that is certainly the case here. But in this case the president wrote that the legislation harms basic constitutional rights, thus the amendment\u2019s economic aspect was not a decisive factor that the court must weigh in exercising its power of judicial review. I think that the fundamental issue that the court has raised in this particular case is that by transferring the power to incarcerate to a private corporation whose purpose is making money, the act of depriving a person of his or her liberty loses much of its legitimacy. I think that will be the basis of the many cases that I believe will be taken around the world. It is not just in New Zealand that this is an ongoing debate. This is being challenged all around the world, and, indeed, at the heart of prison privatisation, the United States of America, we are seeing these things being challenged all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe have listened to National Party MPs talking about feeding people and housing people. We have heard all sorts of different things as being fundamental, so, therefore, why does the State not do all of those? Again, the Government completely misses the point, which is that some things are the core functions of the State and they cannot be contracted out. Maybe National members think a private police force would be a good idea, Actually, the Minister in the chair, Judith Collins, is also the Minister of Police. I ask the Minister whether that is a line across which we would go. Is that thin blue line going to get a little thinner, as the price of those who provide protection for our communities is dropped by the private sector? This is never mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe courts could be privatised completely. The military\u2014the defence forces\u2014could all be completely privatised, and, of course, we could get that for much better value. A few mercenaries could take up that role in defence of the realm. That, I think, is what we are not having a debate about. We are ignoring the fact that there are some fundamental issues in respect of human rights where we cannot ignore the obligation of the State and the fact that these things should not be contracted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EJonathan Young brought to the House the example of the United Kingdom. He quoted the number of private prisons that had been developed in the UK. I do not think he mentioned the fact that 10 of the 11 private prisons in the UK rank in the bottom quarter of all the prisons in the UK. So the UK example is not a very smart argument to be raising, because in fact private prisons do exponentially worse than most others. In fact, 75 percent of the prisons do better. The members opposite love league tables. I tell members that that is a league table that the private sector does not look very good on, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Minister also failed to respond to the point that I have raised in this House more than once now, and that is the cost differential in the provision of per prisoner management of the Auckland Central Remand Prison, which was under private management from 1 July 2004 to 30 June 2005. We had the comparative cost, which was $35,700 per prisoner when it was under private management. The comparable figure for remand prisoners in public prisons at that time was $32,000 per prison. The comparable price with the remand prison, when it came back under public management\u2014a year later, so the price should have gone up\u2014was lower than the private management cost of $33,900 per prisoner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhy is nobody stating the obvious? Is the emperor genuinely wearing some clothes here? It seems to me that what has been overlooked is that the one actual example that we have of private sector prison management in New Zealand shows that it is more costly to run prisons within the private sector than it is within the public sector. All the international evidence points to detriment to those who are being imprisoned and detriment for the prison officers, who are usually paid less and are at greater risk of attacks and other things happening to them. Of course, there is the whole question of the cost to the taxpayer. In actual fact, a lot of that is hidden additional costs. It blatantly cost more for the private sector to run the Auckland Central Remand Prison in the one instance of private management that we had. That is why as a Government coming in we had no problems overturning that contract and saying that we were not going back there. It simply was not even cost-effective. On every level, this fails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d390564a044f80acf3dea6740d7943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d390564a044f80acf3dea6740d7943\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise in this debate to take a short call to talk about some of these things. It is interesting that we actually agree on both sides of the Chamber that there is a huge divide in our ideological differences\u2014the things we believe in. That is a given, and we agree, and that is fantastic. But I would like to talk about perspective. The members opposite lack perspective. It was very, very interesting to listen to some of the members opposite talk about numbers. Do they not even understand the numbers when they quote numbers from the history of the Auckland Central Remand Prison? It was in fact the former Labour Government that came into power and decided to get rid of it because it did not agree with it. There was an ideological difference. But the prison worked better. It had better outcomes. The prisoners had better outcomes. They were getting a better rehabilitation process, yet the previous Labour Government got rid of it because it simply did not agree with the idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ELet me just answer the Hon Lianne Dalziel, who has just resumed her seat. What she said about privatising different things\u2014the police, the military\u2014was very interesting. I think the only person in this House who has ever agreed or talked about privatising the military sits on the other side of the Chamber and belongs to the Labour Party. His name is David Shearer. Goodness me! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI will bring up some of the things that some members have talked about. Talk about propaganda! Apples versus apples, apples versus oranges! There have been no other remand centres that they could compare the Auckland Central Remand Prison with, but they keep continuing to bring up the costs. They keep continuing to compare the numbers. Do they not understand even basic numbers\u2014maths? I am so glad the Hon Anne Tolley is introducing maths and numeracy properly in our schools. Perhaps Labour members should all go back to school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI will talk about what Mr Barker said earlier during the debate. Mr Barker said that the Minister of Corrections and the Department of Corrections have vested interests and, hence, could massage the figures. But I say that perhaps that is what happened when Labour was in Government. Perhaps that is the reason he is suggesting it. Massaging the numbers\u2014my goodness! There are no numbers with which to compare Auckland Remand\u2014I cannot even speak now; I am so excited\u2014Auckland Central Remand Prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni came up with all those numbers of people who are escaping from prison\u2014so many of them\u2014yet she opposes this bill. That is unbelievable. She cannot come to grips with the fact that perhaps we have a really, really\u2014as Mr Barker would say\u2014woeful performance by the Department of Corrections under the previous Labour Government. Let me say that escape numbers have halved since this Government, the National Government, has taken over. Yet Labour members are opposed to the idea that perhaps there would be a better choice and a better option for the public and for safety, and better outcomes for prisoners\u2019 rehabilitation. I cannot understand why Labour members would oppose that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESomebody else over on the other side talked about transparency. When they try to say that the Auditor-General and the chief executive cannot control a privately managed prison, do they actually know what they are saying? That is just utterly ridiculous. The chief executive of the Department of Corrections this morning in the Law and Order Committee said that he is the boss of the Department of Corrections, and that, yes, he will be able to monitor the private management of a prison\u2014as I said, private management. We are not lumping up all the prisons and selling them. It is not the privatisation of all prisons. We are actually saying that best international practice could be adopted to improve the situation in this country where the Department of Corrections has failed in its duties\u2014which is woeful, as Mr Barker has said. You know, perhaps we might have a better benchmark against what has happened in the last 9 years of the previous Labour Government. It is improving since the current Minister of Corrections took over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere is also something else that somebody on the other side of the Chamber said. Lianne Dalziel also said that business in the private sector could be bad, but in the public sector it is good. We all work in the public sector. We are all members of Parliament. We are here to do good for the public. We have never actually said that public is bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfb0fbec613544f99d371d8eabe59c12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfb0fbec613544f99d371d8eabe59c12\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I come back to the contribution made by Melissa Lee, and I will talk about numbers. Let us come back to the numbers that the Hon Lianne Dalziel put forward. I just repeat them for Ms Lee, because she heard them when they were given to the Law and Order Committee by the Department of Corrections, which is responsible to the Minister of Corrections. These are the numbers that are given by the department. The department says that the Auckland Central Remand Prison, under private management, had operating costs of $35,700, which inclusive of other costs were $57,280, which was higher than for remand prisoners held in public prisons. The cost was $35,700, compared with $32,000 in public prisons, and $57,000 was the cost, inclusive of related property costs, in the private sector, whereas it was $50,000 for the public sector. So the public sector was cheaper. These are figures from advisers to the Government; those people can count. These are audited figures. This is solid evidence. This is not rhetoric. The member says she can count and she supports numbers, but they are the same sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis is the same attitude from National that it had when Treasury said that the emissions trading scheme was going to cost New Zealand $110 billion. Nick Smith said, no, it will not. Well, who are we to believe: Nick Smith, who counts on his fingers and his toes, or Treasury, filled with highly skilled, highly trained people who can count and can do numbers. The Department of Corrections\u2019 own numbers show that the Auckland Central Remand Prison run under the private sector was dearer than it was under the public sector. Every piece of evidence, whether we look at it from Australia, from Canada, or from Britain, shows that privately run prisons are poorer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere is another part\u2014members should trust me, and I will come to Part 2 here, which will surprise the Minister\u2014that shows some concerns. If members have a look at clause 7(2), they will read: \u201Cthe contractor and the chief executive, in the name and on behalf of the Crown, may make any arrangements that they consider necessary or desirable to determine the respective liabilities of the Crown and the contractor in relation to any matter \u2026\u201D. A private cosy deal will be done between the chief executive and the contractor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThen we can go to section 199B of the Corrections Act, substituted by clause 5 of the bill: \u201C(1) The Crown is entitled to be indemnified by a contractor\u2014\u201D. It does not say \u201Cshall\u201D, or \u201Cmust be\u201D; it says \u201Centitled to be\u201D. That is permissive. So we can have a cosy deal by the chief executive and the contractor. Who will carry the cost of that? It will be the taxpayer. The point about that is that we have to rely\u2014according to the Minister and the Government\u2019s legislation\u2014on the chief executive\u2019s responsibility and integrity about that. I have no doubt about the responsibility and integrity of the chief executive. But I want to have oversight by an external audit carried out by an external agency, and that is why I want the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General to be in the legislation. I want it to be compulsory that those things are done. This is by trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhen the member Melissa Lee says that Labour members are talking about ideology, I say to her that we are not talking about ideology from our perspective; we are talking about ideology from the National Party\u2019s perspective. This provision is simply an article of faith: National members believe that private contractors will do better when all of the evidence points in the opposite direction. Even when the Minister\u2019s own department says that it is more expensive for a prison to be run by private enterprise than it is to be run by the department, she is still going to go ahead and proceed with this legislation. When Treasury says it is going to cost $110 billion for the emissions trading scheme, and Nick Smith says \u201CThat is not correct. We have got other figures.\u201D, whom do we believe, Treasury or Nick Smith? In this particular case, whom do we believe, the Department of Corrections or the Minister of Corrections? I say that the department is correct. A private contract was more expensive before, so there is no justification for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe next point I come back to in this debate is that the Minister got up earlier and said how wonderful the Auckland Central Remand Prison was before, because it introduced programmes for M\u0101ori. It was innovative\u2014the first prison in the country to do that. Well, I tell the Minister that that is not correct. That is simply not correct. The programme was started in Hawke\u2019s Bay, in Mangaroa Prison, and all of the other prisons followed that. So we have now a fallacious argument being put forward to justify an innovation of a private sector prison. It was not a private sector prison that introduced that innovation; the facts show that to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00227444d20b54654af586f57ed94b30f0b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227444d20b54654af586f57ed94b30f0b4\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I need to answer a few of the questions that have been raised. The member the Hon Rick Barker has just resumed his seat. He said I had said the programmes for M\u0101ori were first introduced in the Auckland Central Remand Prison. But I said that was the first programme for remand prisoners. He should listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe member also made some points there about costs. All through the debate tonight we have heard from Labour members, but not one of them has talked about the need for rehabilitation or the fact that rehabilitation costs money. Unfortunately, they continue to ignore the fact that the Auckland Central Remand Prison, as a remand centre\u2014the only one that was fully a remand centre at that stage\u2014actually provided rehabilitation. It was contracted for 70,000 hours. That was not something that was prevalent in the remand wings of our public prisons at that stage; that prison was, in fact, a leader on that. Those members ignore the fact that that contract cost money. Well, this party is not going to ignore rehabilitation, which is why we have doubled the number of rehabilitation places for our prisoners in our first term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESome questions have been asked about ideology. What is our ideology? It is pretty simple, really; it is whatever works. Whatever works in corrections is what we are going to do. We will not do what the Labour Party does, which is to say it has an ideology of being against the private sector. But here is a little question for the Labour members to answer; Mr Barker may like to answer it. If Labour members are so against the private management of prisons, why was Chubb, which Mr Barker called a glorified taxi service, the company that under Labour responded to all the home detention call-outs? I ask Mr Barker why that was the case. It was because, of course, it is OK for Labour to call on the private sector when it feels like it, but Labour will not have the private sector anywhere where Labour can make a point out of it. It was quite safe to do that when National was Opposition, because the Labour members knew that National actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a8b82733504849a5309b1a8c403d28\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That is because it was home detention, not incarceration in a prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fccc8ffff62420bae28d9bc528f8892\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Lianne Dalziel says it is not incarceration. Well, she should tell that to the courts. I think it is extremely important to ask those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere have been some questions from Moana Mackey. She asked why the terms of the contracts are not in the bill. It is a good point, except that the terms of contracts are in those contracts. That is a sort of basic fact. If she had looked at that, she would understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey also said there would be corruption. She talked about judges being corrupt and sending prisoners off to jails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3280a844f546c0bb60b1521b3436e0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: In America.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba6f3972714647acbc88a68803384f7e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: That was in America. Let us just look at this. Moana Mackey is saying judges in New Zealand could be corrupt. Well, I actually do not have one instance of knowing of a judge in New Zealand who could be corrupt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0740572c6b94bdca7ce0e7873b30829\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: She never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956d72f160974460842f308ce981d9da\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: If she did not want to raise it, why did she bring it into this debate? The other thing she said was that judges could collude with private prison managers. She said that happened in America, so it is obviously applicable here! Well, in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236bff4f38ed04c4da98f029748ff2dac\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: So the Minister admits it happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223655df78ea7e46d5a9cc69d78414f517\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. If the member wants to know about it, she should answer this question: who decides to which prison a prisoner goes? It is actually the Department of Corrections. Is she now going to say the Department of Corrections is corrupt, as well? Is that what she is going to say? When it comes to incarceration, this is a completely different system than that which operates in any of the states of America. We do not have politically elected judges; we have appointed judges, who are appointed until their retirement age. The vast majority of our prison population will be in the State-managed prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins has asked about Rimutaka Prison and about how many prisons would be under private management. I wish he had listened, because I have said time and time again all year\u2014and I have put out a number of press releases on this\u2014that we are looking at two: the new prison being built at Mount Eden, and a new prison possibly being built at Wiri, which is in Auckland. So we are not talking about wholesale privatisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263dba131907e4ee5b85cb96d2ceb901f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Who pays for the buildings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4846e4a989b479fa5c022015824f3d3\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member from the Greens likes to pipe up and make her voice heard now. She said she went to the Auckland Central Remand Prison. What did she say? She loved the innovation. She said it was all because of Dom Karauria, who was the manager. She then went on to allege corruption in that prison. She said the people were fudging the statistics. That is what she said about the manager of that prison, and she should be ashamed of herself for making that allegation. That man is a very impressive manager of prisons, and she would be very lucky if he came back here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat are some of the other things? Oh, yes\u2014Lianne Dalziel. She talked about the core functions of the State. I am actually with Phil Goff on this one: when it comes to prisons, it does not matter who owns them and it does not matter who manages them; what matters are the outcomes. The outcomes from privately managed prisons and our State-run prisons should be all about rehabilitation: preventing people from being re-victimised out in society, and making sure that we do not simply lock people up and leave them there. When Labour came into Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cb20e42ba184861b97ccf94184524fe\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re wasting time and money on private prisons, when you should be dealing with the public sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65be03cba0940659420a29c4025a909\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: If Miss Turei would listen, she would learn something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226da200232934bba9cc6a8536994fb9d\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: She doesn\u2019t listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241f865ce247e49e49727ca53a731f639\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know she does not listen. She could listen to this: when Labour came into Government, there were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293cc46d3530a44afa1966a9ce5ae0509\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Is it not the usual format for the Minister in the chair to actually answer questions raised by previous speakers, rather than give a political diatribe from the chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266774cc53c5d448da99a80afba6320dc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave was sought for a wide-ranging debate on the remaining parts, and I think the Minister is having a wide-ranging debate on the remaining parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8dc9b623f334a038e21467574860cf7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It shows that those members do not like the answers, do they? They really do not. Miss Turei has made all sorts of comments about the integrity of the people who worked at Auckland Central Remand Prison. She has said, from hearsay evidence given to her in a select committee, that the place was corrupt, yet she has at the same time said the manager there was one of the most impressive people whom she had met. She also said that prison was innovative. That is what she said. So that member is extraordinarily confused. However, in amongst her ideology against privately run prisons, she has now said we should have a partnership with iwi in the public sector. I am glad to hear that the Greens have come round to public-private partnerships. I look forward to their support when we build the new prison at Wiri, because I think that will be very, very interesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EGenerally, I ask the Opposition members to please stop ignoring the 70,000 hours of rehabilitation that Auckland Central Remand Prison put in, and to please stop denigrating the people who did good work at that prison. They were good people, they did good work, and they should not be denigrated just because the Opposition has an ideological problem. The only ideology that we are bringing to this issue is whatever works, and I am very proud to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002249f357d8f90f452cb87e14feca5fa05e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f357d8f90f452cb87e14feca5fa05e\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call. I have to say, though, that I am somewhat disappointed to follow what can only be described as an absolute trivialisation of some really significant points that had been made not only by the Labour Opposition but also by my colleague Metiria Turei. I will touch on a couple of points that the Minister in the chair raised. In particular, she tried to defend private prisons by stating that rehabilitation programmes had taken place under private contractors in remand prison. Remand prisons are for prisoners on remand! Fifty percent of those on remand are subsequently found not guilty; they are under the presumption of innocence. And we are operating rehabilitation programmes on some of these prisoners? No wonder we have inefficiency problems with the private sector! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would also like some clarification, perhaps if Jonathan Young would like to take another call, on what exactly is meant by the decency agenda that private prisons are operating. I was confused by this term, and perhaps he could shed some light on the decency agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe UK is an interesting example to bring up\u2014the UK and its large number of private prisons. I am not sure whether Mr Young heard the Labour Opposition point out that 10 of the 11 worst-performing prisons in the UK are private prisons. In fact, that might be the very reason why in the UK they established something called independent prison monitoring boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would like to spend a little bit of time talking about the independent prison monitoring boards, because it is a point raised by my colleague Moana Mackey. I guess parallels could be drawn between what was established in the UK, and the monitors that the Minister has raised in Part 1. But I will go through some of the technical differences because I think the monitors that are set out in this bill are actually inadequate in comparison with what the UK has set up; I want us to keep in mind that the UK set them up because of the dire circumstances under which some of these private prisons were operating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to go back to new section 199E and the monitors. New subsection (1) of that section sets out the number of monitors that could be appointed at any one time, and I ask the Minister whether she has any expectations over what is an adequate number of monitors for any given prison. The responsibilities for these monitors, as set out in this bill, are significant. In fact, in the UK the independent prison monitoring boards have multiple members on them, in light of the fact that they deal with such weighty issues, and they are frequently called to report to the Home Office on the operations of the prisons, so I would like to hear whether the Minister has any expectations in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would also like to refer to section 199E(1A) in clause 5, which sets out that the chief executive may appoint one or more monitors under the State Sector Act. New section 199D(2) in clause 5 then states that the monitor is responsible to the chief executive for the assessment and review of the management of that prison, and must report to the chief executive \u201Cat any intervals\u201D. I want to draw out the question of independence at this point, and it is something that has been raised by my colleagues. Again, there is a significant difference between the independent boards that we see operating in the UK and those we see here. The chief executive appoints the board, and it reports to the chief executive. New section 199E(4) states that \u201CThe office of the monitor may be combined with any other office, appointment, or position if the chief executive is satisfied that the duties of that other office, appointment, or position are not incompatible with the duties of a monitor.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThat is a huge amount of discretion placed upon the shoulders of one individual person. The fact that the chief executive can appoint however many monitors he or she chooses, and makes a decision over whether there is any conflict of interest with that individual, and can call the monitor to make reports at any time, is a high concentration of power in one individual, and, potentially, for the one or two individuals whom he or she may appoint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons I have such an interest in independent prison monitoring boards is that when I was resident in the UK I made an application to become a member of one. I had an interest in the way those boards operated and the fact that they drew on lay people\u2014members of the community\u2014who had no conflict of interest in the way, for instance, Brixton prison was managed. I was one of those individuals. I had no vested interest in any regard. The chief executive would not have been the one making my appointment to that board. I would have been entirely separate to the process. My only interest, therefore, would have been the transparent and correct operation of that prison as set out in legislation. I think that is in stark contrast to the way these monitors are set out in this legislation. I would be interested to know whether the Minister took into account any comparisons, such as the way the UK, for instance, operated, which is an area I have some interest in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would like to go on to a couple more provisions as they relate specifically to the monitors. New section 199F(2) states \u201CEvery contractor must ensure that any monitor has free and unfettered access at all times\u201D. That actually confers on the monitors greater powers than the Auditor-General has. The Auditor-General has an independent responsibility\u2014a responsibility not invested in the Auditor-General by the chief executive\u2014yet the monitors have greater powers than the Auditor-General. I think that is an oversight, and therefore I am disappointed that we have not adopted today what I think are very reasonable Supplementary Order Papers put forward by my colleague Rick Barker. Those Supplementary Order Papers would have rectified and clarified that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI come to new section 199G(2A), which, within that context, states that a monitor is also able to \u201Cinvestigate any matter relating to that prison, or any prisoner in that prison,\u201D. I think that raises an interesting point over the subject matter of the reports that will come from the monitor. For instance, the independent prison monitoring board actually spends a lot of time taking complaints from prisoners about the abuse of very, very basic rights. I do not want to get into a debate over whether we are granting too many rights to prisoners, but the independent prison monitoring board did have a role in ensuring that there were basic standards in those prisons. Often those were kept in check only by complaints made by prisoners themselves. Will a monitor be able to accept complaints and investigate matters raised by prisoners directly? I accept that I may have missed that detail in the bill, but I would be happy for the Minister of Corrections to clarify that for me. I do note that the Minister is quite busy, but I suspect that the Hon Nathan Guy is not raising with her matters related to the bill; perhaps he is discussing designs for the next passport, because that is obviously a weighty issue that the House has spent significant time on today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI would like to get to another important issue and that is what happens to the reports\u2014the very important reports\u2014being produced by the only one with access, and apparent transparent access, to the private prisons. What happens to the reports generated by the monitors? There are lots of provisions relating to what they can do, how they can get the information, and how they can be tasked by the chief executive, but I did not feel that there was enough consideration of what then happens to those reports. The Opposition has already requested that access is granted under the Official Information Act. I do not feel there is quite enough clarity at this point that they will be covered by the Official Information Act, and that we will be able to gain access to the reports produced by monitors. Again, that is perhaps something the Minister could clarify for us. I think that would be a great service to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere is a provision under section 199I that says that prison management contracts are to be presented to the House of Representatives. We will then, in comparison, have greater transparency around the content of contracts than we will around whether the contracts have been abided by and fulfilled, and I think that is an inconsistency. It is one thing to know what is included in a contract, but it is another thing to know whether we have the powers and tools to ensure that those contracts are being abided by. It would be only right to have consistency between those two provisions. I request that the Minister draw out her reasons why she believes that the reports produced by monitors should not be subject to section 199.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00223d7927d99e4946d99a3354ca4d7da150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d7927d99e4946d99a3354ca4d7da150\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Associate Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairperson. I will take a call on the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. To make it very clear, I say that I am the Associate Minister of Corrections. I asked for the portfolio because I have spent a lot of my time since the 1970s working in prisons in New Zealand and Australia, and I thought that maybe I could offer something to the prison service by being involved in that capacity as a Minister. There are good prisons and bad prisons in terms of their administration and treatment, and of the duties they perform. I have found good prisons in a private capacity and also in a public capacity, and poor prisons in both, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI favour the introduction of private prisons in the sense that it can give M\u0101ori an opportunity to be more involved in looking after their own and perhaps rehabilitating them. The role of a prison in the first place is really to incarcerate people and to make the public safe. I believe that the role can be extended to rehabilitation, but it needs a particular programme and culture within it in order to perform those tasks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EA variety of M\u0101ori programmes have been introduced in prisons for ages. Mention has been made of the M\u0101ori focus units. The first one was in Hastings; I was one of the three people who designed that prison. It did not perform how we wanted it to, and that is what I want to talk about. In New Zealand we have more prisons and more people in prison than we should have for our population. As a result, the prisons are finding it difficult to cope, so they are putting conditions on each other. There is a lot of interaction between prisons, which stops the units from running in their own rights as single prisons. In the M\u0101ori focus units, for example, suddenly there may be no more beds left in the matua prison\u2014the senior prison\u2014so they put people into the M\u0101ori focus unit who do not want to be there, sometimes who are not M\u0101ori, and who do not fit into that programme. It erodes the value of the programme that is operating. There are other factors, too, but unless a programme is set up and is protected so that it can run in accord with why it has been set up, then it is very difficult to carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EMy own preference is that we build more rehabilitation centres. We have designed some that we are hoping to launch next year. The value of the rehabilitation centres is that they will bring the recidivism rate down, which doubles the amount of beds available. If there is a rehabilitation centre with 60 beds and we manage to keep most of those people out of prison, that means that 60 beds are available in the main prison as well as in the rehabilitation centre because those people are not coming back. It is good to try. We have tried quite a few things in prison, but it has been very difficult to maintain them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dfa4f988be64979abf10711d1dcd7a9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: But they\u2019re not-for-profit, aren\u2019t they? The ones that work are not-for-profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ed261f827646fd9286f9beee267849\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot answer that, because I have seen rehabilitation centres run both in private prisons and in public prisons, and I do not think that the profit thing needs to come into the equation, myself. I think it is up to the manager. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe member is right about Dom Karauria and the good job that he did at the Auckland Central Remand Prison, but that came down to the manager and the freedom that he had to operate. He saw our P programme and he saw that P was a problem in his prison. He gave $13,000 towards our P programme and he asked us to come into his prison and present to all of his staff. He made his entire staff, except those few who were holding the keys at that moment, observe the programme. At the end of it, he stood up in front of them and said that he did not want to see any of them involved in P trafficking or helping to get P. He mentioned a guy who had left the week before, who was sacked because he was involved in P, and he said that he did not want to see it happening there. So I was pretty impressed with the prison that he ran. He also had a cultural arm at the prison, which Peter White ran. He had elders in there by the dozen, and those elders were able to interact. I am not saying that this cannot happen in a general prison, but it is harder in New Zealand, because of all the layers of culture that have happened in our prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EDuring my first 3 years in Parliament, sitting on that bench over there, I noticed that quite a few Ministers of Corrections passed through. Corrections was regarded as the portfolio from hell. That was the k\u014Drero. But, you see, it need not be like that if we are able to effect some change and some difference. Most of the people working in prisons are well motivated, and I mean that, having worked in that area since 1972. Also, most of the inmates start on little offences, like sleeping in a truck bay in town, smashing a bus seat, or something like that. It builds up to a welfare home, then a low-security prison, then a medium-security prison, and then a maximum-security prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI visited some private prisons in Australia. I thought they were pretty good, because they had a case management system where every inmate had a personal case manager and every staff member had a number of inmates for whom he or she was responsible. That case management gave people an opportunity to aspire to privileges. They had a privilege system. The inmates would get more visits, more leave, and stuff like that, depending on their behaviour and how they operated in the prison. I think that those sorts of things can come in more easily in a private prison than they can in the mainstream prison, because our mainstream prisons are connected to each other. We might have to move people. We have a programme of trying to relocate inmates near to the town where they come from, and that causes all sorts of complications as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere is a case for private prisons. I think, though, that if we do that, then we have to have a public debate. I think we have to look at things like security, escape, and so on, and we have to make sure that people have had the chance to have that debate. We have to look at the human rights\u2014the rights of inmates to appeal and to have their appeal heard properly. All of these things have to happen if we are to extend into the private capacity. At the end of the day I think we should try it, because the way we are doing it now is not working, despite really good attempts being made in the Department of Corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d79893a2edda48128598c20f2492b6af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d79893a2edda48128598c20f2492b6af\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I came down to the Chamber and I was not inclined to say anything on this Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, but in a way I could not help myself when I listened to the Labour members. When we listen to Labour members these days, whether the issue is prisons, education, health, or accident compensation, it does not really matter, because what they are about is means. They are about public delivery, irrespective of whether the outcome is any good. Those members do not start with objectives and goals, and then ask what the best way to deliver them is. Where they start is with the means, and it has to be the public delivery. It would not matter whether private prisons rehabilitated 50 percent of prisoners and public prisons rehabilitated only 10 percent, because the members opposite would still favour public prisons. That is a tragedy; that is a real tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EI suggest to Labour members that they are going nowhere until they focus on objectives and goals, and not on means. They are in favour of a public system in accident compensation that will lose $4 billion this year. They are not actually interested in delivery. They are interested in a public education system where 30 percent of our young kids come out unable to read or write properly. They are not interested in the kids, but they are interested in public delivery. At the end of the day, that is what this is all about. It is a question of whether we can introduce a measure of competition. Without doubt, competition is vital. It is just as vital within the public sector as it is within the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EIt would be fair to say that competition amongst Government enterprises and between Government enterprises and private organisations helps to ensure that the Government is the servant of the people and not the other way round. Whether or not the Labour Opposition likes it, the fact is that competition is a disciplinary force. It provides consumers with a protection against poor quality services. I suggest that some private sector competition in the field that we are talking about\u2014prisons\u2014would do exactly that. The difficulty for the Labour Party, I think, is that those members have locked themselves so much into the means that they have lost sight of the people whom they are trying to help. Until they get back to focusing on people rather than on means, they are going nowhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EA recent publication on education by their former Prime Minister, which she sent to a lot of parents, mentioned public education in that letter 12 times and never mentioned a child once. That is where Labour has got to, which is a great tragedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220f3e34dfdf7b457197713fe8b659d5f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f3e34dfdf7b457197713fe8b659d5f8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about some aspects of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill where I think the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Corrections, would agree that we are basically on the same page. What she has been trying to achieve, particularly in the new section 199, which is in clause 5, is about safety and accountability. I ask the Minister whether it would be fair to say that what we are talking about within this bill is an attempt to establish some parameters for safety and accountability in this process. Yes, I think we have some nodding from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe question I then have is to do with, for instance, new section 199(1)(c)(ii), which states that one of the requirements of the contract is that there be \u201Csufficient suitable staff members to enable the contractor to carry out the contractor\u2019s statutory and contractual obligations in relation to the prison;\u201D. What we know from private prisons internationally is that they drive down the ratio of staff to prisoners. We know that. The statistics from America tell us that. A report from the US National Council on Crime and Delinquency said that privatisation led to a 15 percent lower ratio of staff to inmates. That is supposed to make us safer. That is supposed to make communities safer. That is supposed to make our prisons safer. That clause is in this bill. I am sure that the intent of it from the Minister of Corrections\u2019 point of view was to support some kind notion of safety within our prisons and safety for our community, but we know from overseas evidence that it goes the other way, and that we will end up with fewer staff, and more problems within our prisons as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Minister stood up earlier and said that the problem with Labour was that we did not understand and we were interested only in ideology, but that National was after what works. The problem is that privatisation has not worked in the United States of America. It has not worked in Australia. It has not worked in Canada. It has not worked in the United Kingdom. I have great respect for Dr Sharples, and I think, given his experience, that he should be the Minister in the chair right now. I think we would be a lot further advanced if he was. But we know that, empirically, privatisation does not work. The Minister simply stands up and says that the Labour Party does not understand what works. We have not heard from the Minister what measures that have actually worked have driven her to do this. We have not heard that. The only evidence presented about the performance of private prisons has come from this side of the House. I think that these particular parts of this bill try to establish a framework that will be safe, but we know that that framework has not worked internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I think the Minister is trying to establish is some sort of accountability of private prisons. The problem we have is that this bill decreases the transparency and accountability of the prison system. Earlier on tonight we discussed the fact that the Law and Order Committee obviously had some inclination towards the importance of accountability and transparency, because it had included within the bill that the requirements of the Public Records Act be met in terms of the prisons and the prisoners. That means that the Chief Archivist can get in there and find out what is going on in the prisons. Why, then, would we not let private prisons be exposed to the Ombudsman or to the Auditor-General? Why would we not want those agencies, which are closely related to Parliament and to ensuring transparency and accountability, to be involved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the end, what we are reduced to here, in terms of accountability, is monitors appointed by the chief executive. We are, in fact, reducing the ability to hold private prisons to account. We know that we can question the Minister and the Department of Corrections through the select committee process, through oral and written questions, and through inquiries. We cannot do that with a private company. So the clauses within this bill that are trying to create some kind of regime of accountability are simply lacking. We heard earlier tonight from the Minister that the reason she was not supporting the Supplementary Order Papers that would have done that, that would have brought this legislation into line, was because they had not been considered by her caucus. That is simply not on. Ms Goudie will tell us that these matters were raised\u2014and I have checked with Labour members\u2014at the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714f970058c6466eb856f58e9dc0f78e\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e575b64e9545d5b67b052fa44e875c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Having better accountability arrangements and better transparency, and involving the Ombudsman and the Auditor-General. These things could have been dealt with, but the Minister airily dismissed them, saying that they were not discussed at her caucus, so she was not prepared to consider them. That is unacceptable. What we have here are accountability and transparency arrangements that will make it less possible for New Zealanders to know what is happening in their prison system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Ombudsman\u2019s role is critical within the prison system. Anyone who has dealt with complaints at all, at any time in his or her role as an MP or outside this House, will know the important role that the Ombudsman can play in the prison system. To not have that fully available as we go down this unknown path of private prisons is very, very dangerous. Then we come to the Auditor-General. The Law and Order Committee was told that the Office of the Auditor-General would not have the ability to scrutinise this new arrangement in the way that it normally would. The Office of the Auditor-General reported to the committee that, under this bill, it would not have the power to audit a private company and provide an opinion on the performance of that company. Once again we see this bill reducing accountability and reducing transparency. What I am trying to say here is that Part 1 is the accountability section. Section 199 is the new accountability section. We have the Chief Archivist involved. That is fantastic! The Chief Archivist can be there. But what we do not have is the ability for the Ombudsman, the Auditor-General, and, ultimately, Parliament to have the kind of oversight that is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill is flawed in principle and it is flawed in practice. But from the Government members tonight we have simply not heard any justification or evidence. We have seen that there will be reductions in accountability and reductions in safety. This bill has gone through tonight without National members standing up and doing anything more than indulging in broad ideological statements. Members on this side of the Chamber have made sure that we have defended our principled position, our ideological position, and we have gone on to debate the practical implications of this bill. We have not heard that from the other side of the Chamber. That means we are passing a law under urgency that will decrease safety, that will decrease accountability, and that will decrease transparency, and the National members cannot even get up to justify it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f53c20f0239e4d45b6cfe5936311d662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f53c20f0239e4d45b6cfe5936311d662\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I have been frustrated while I have been sitting here throughout this debate by the misinformation that I have heard from the Labour members. I do not think it is wilful misinformation. Members opposite are not setting out to be duplicitous and to say things that are dishonest; I do not think that at all. A fog or a mist has come over those members\u2019 eyes, though, through their ideology and dogma. When I think of their ideology, I think of old men who died probably about 150 years ago, and who were caught up in arguments about profit, the proletariat, and so on. When all that debate is boiled down, that is what it comes to from those members\u2019 perspective. It comes down to ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe have heard from Grant Robertson. I am simplifying it, but I think he said that profit equals bad. Profit equals bad. That is what I heard. I admit that he fancied it up and he titified it, but he made the argument that profit is bad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d02a44344674e96a26ad50dc40e9915\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTit-ify\u201D Harawira?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe227c9e10504e69885b13fc38e2ac4d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party would know all about that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a9a68d56434776b9ace3b5c059aeb5\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Chris Hipkins to look that one up. There are more meanings than he thinks, and he should get his mind out of the gutter. Grant Robertson said that profit is bad. He said that if an organisation has a business imperative in the prisons and is making a profit, then, through those members\u2019 leap of logic, that compromises what those who are running the prison are doing. How ridiculous, I say to Grant Robertson. That argument goes something like this if we apply it in other sectors. Toyota makes a profit from manufacturing motor vehicles, and because it makes a profit, that somehow compromises their safety record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39ce5d78b5d4879a41635a1f0ea12f6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807397fc4124482da6c22320d139241a\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what the member said. He was making the argument that profit is bad. The members opposite do not like it. They say that when businesses make a profit, that somehow compromises them. How ridiculous! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe heard the same sort of ideological bunk from Lianne Dalziel, who I admit dressed it up in a kind of human rights language of liberty, and talked about the Israeli Supreme Court and so on. But again, if we boil it all down, it is ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe heard the same from Jacinda Ardern. She said that making a profit was somehow bad, and that the reason it was bad was that prisons are a core Government function and service. Again, I say that is absolutely ridiculous. How absolutely ridiculous! Firstly, the Department of Corrections will be overseeing all these prisons. Secondly, I do not think anyone in this House would argue that health and education are not core Government functions. Those members argue that having private schools and private hospitals corrupts the whole system, when what they actually do is to add to the system. They free up public resources and enhance the system. That shows the ideology of members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Corrections, Judith Collins, is exactly right. What we have from this Government and from the M\u0101ori Party is a philosophy that says to do what works. Let us be pragmatic about it, let us look at the evidence, and we will do what works. We are beginning to see that under National, and I think that is a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAnother point that has come out in the debate concerns price. Those members argue that the evidence that the price is more expensive stacks up, and that we would be paying more under a private prison contract. How ridiculous, again! We are not comparing apples with apples, for starters. We could get into the figures. I do not want to have a sterile debate on the figures, but the reality is that when the Auckland Central Remand Prison was privatised, it cost, I think, $57,000 per prisoner as opposed to $61,000 in the wider system. We have seen cost advantages in Australia and England. If we are talking price, then the arguments go both ways. We could argue about the numbers, but what is more important than that? This measure is not about the numbers; it is about having effective and safe prisons, rather than having cheap ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00222942dc56f0884fdca7703c3cae7e0e8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222942dc56f0884fdca7703c3cae7e0e8f\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The first thing I say, given the contribution we have just heard, is that I make no apology for believing that profiteering from systemic racism is a bad thing. Making a profit is not necessarily a bad thing, but making a profit from systemic racism is bad, and this Committee should not be supporting any kind of legislation that does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI will address some of the issues raised by the Associate Minister of Corrections because I thought he made a really important contribution, given the argument that this legislation is supposed to be good for M\u0101ori, and given the fact that the M\u0101ori Party is supporting it. The process of colonisation that has impacted on the M\u0101ori communities in this country is felt nowhere more obviously than in the oldest construction of the colonial Government, which is the criminal legal system and penal policy. They are the oldest constructions of the colonial State. The results of the colonisation process and the systemic racism that has arisen out of that process are clear. More than 50 percent of the prison population is M\u0101ori, and more than 50 percent of the female prison population is M\u0101ori. W\u0101hine M\u0101ori are in jail in appalling numbers. The systemic bias in the system leads to M\u0101ori being more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, convicted, and jailed than their P\u0101keh\u0101 counterparts. Even those involved with the Youth Court have said that rangatahi M\u0101ori\u2014young M\u0101ori\u2014are more likely to face the Youth Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515382cc36ad4e0c83fb868a970abae4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The chair of the Law and Order Committee is shaking her head at what you\u2019re saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f029865b2f9e4f3eb75e511043f97a86\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It is unbelievable that National cannot face the facts of the matter. Rangatahi M\u0101ori are more likely to face the Youth Court, even though their offences are generally of less seriousness than the offences committed by their P\u0101keh\u0101 counterparts. We see the evidence in the legal system everywhere, and this is the system in which our wh\u0101nau exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI agreed with the Associate Minister of Corrections when he talked about the different kinds of options for dealing with M\u0101ori imprisonment and M\u0101ori rehabilitation. Habilitation centres are absolutely the way to go; not the continual building of prisons\u2014habilitation centres that are wh\u0101nau focused and deal with systemic issues as well as taking a whole wh\u0101nau approach. The M\u0101ori focus units, where they have been successful, have done really well. The systemic problems within the Department of Corrections have made that more difficult, but the example that the M\u0101ori units provide is fantastic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe absolutely agree with M\u0101ori involvement in the management of prisons. The only way to deal with the M\u0101ori prison population and to ensure that there is real rehabilitation from a tikanga point of view is by having M\u0101ori involved in the management of prisons and having kaum\u0101tua in the prisons. We agree with that completely. I do not agree with how we then get to the totally relaxed view that somehow the market will be able to provide those things where the Public Service has failed. On what basis can we say that the evidence is there that the market will provide that, when the public system has failed? Jane Kelsey has a really good quote in her submission. She said that in the assumption that both market forces and our system of justice are colour-blind, M\u0101ori are invisible. That is the implication of assuming with no evidence\u2014not a skerrick of evidence\u2014that the private sector and market forces will be able to provide these kinds of services for M\u0101ori and for the M\u0101ori management of prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ECertainly nothing\u2014not a thing\u2014in the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill will enable what the Associate Minister of Corrections was talking about to happen. There is no requirement for any kind of joint venture with any kind of iwi organisation. There is no Treaty clause in the legislation. There is no requirement for M\u0101ori to be part of the staffing of those prisons, even though we know that more than 50 percent of the inmates will be M\u0101ori. There is no requirement for cultural training of the staff who will be in that prison. We heard evidence from the staff of the Auckland Central Remand Prison that they bring over from Australia staff who have no concept of how to deal with M\u0101ori prisoners or of the tikanga issues involved. But the bill does not say anything about requiring cultural training. There is no requirement in the legislation for tikanga M\u0101ori programmes to be managed within the prison. The Minister has talked in the past about that being part of the contract, but where is the guarantee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e93feaa9164c97a0ff25a54b770154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e93feaa9164c97a0ff25a54b770154\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I agree with many of the comments that Metiria Turei has just raised. I totally agree with her that it is really important that M\u0101ori are involved in the management of prisons, and have a meaningful say in that. I totally disagree with the position put forward by the Associate Minister of Corrections, Dr Pita Sharples, that the best way to do that is to privatise prisons and put them over to the private sector. I think the public sector is perfectly capable of managing prisons. If we extended the Minister\u2019s argument to its logical conclusion, we would then start to ask why the public sector would, for example, have any role in schools, in hospitals, or in the provision of any other services. If we take that to its logical conclusion, it simply does not make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will respond to some of the comments that Simon Bridges made. He said that the notion that the incarceration of prisoners\u2014the deprivation of people\u2019s liberty\u2014is a core role for Government, was ridiculous. If it is not a core role for Government, for whom is it a core role? It certainly should not be a core role of the private sector to deprive somebody of his or her liberty. Where do we stop if we start handing over the power to do that to the private sector? Do we stop at the police? Do we stop at the army? Where do we stop, when we are dealing with issues around fundamental human rights? There are very few human rights that are more fundamental than the right to freedom and the right to liberty. So I think that Simon Bridges has completely missed the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe member talked about the fact that he did not want to make this a sterile debate by quoting figures; that is because there are no figures to support the position that he put forward. The figures show that it is not cheaper for the private sector to run prisons. In fact, in the case of the Auckland Central Remand Prison it was more expensive for the private sector to operate it, which shows that private prisons are not more effective in reducing recidivism. From the few studies that are available from overseas\u2014and we do not have any from New Zealand because of the very short period of time that we had a privately run prison\u2014it becomes very apparent that the privatisation of prisons, and the handing of their management over to private prison managers, does not reduce recidivism, at all. This is absolutely a very clear example of the stark differences between the Labour Opposition and the new National Government. As my colleagues have pointed out, the National Government is fundamentally committed to a model that privatises profits and socialises losses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFinally, I will talk about one technical point; I wanted to raise it earlier but this is the first opportunity I have had to do so. It is covered in Part 1 and concerns the liability of the contractor, but it extends to the wider issues that we have been debating. Under the contract provisions in the bill, the contract must ensure that \u201CEvery prison management contract must impose on the contractor, in relation to the management of the prison, a duty to comply with\u2014\u201D, among other things, \u201Cthe New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u201D. Members will find that provision in new section 199(2)(b), in clause 5. Hopefully the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Collins, will talk about this matter in her final reading speech. But I ask, in respect of new section 199B, which is about the liability of the contractor, what would happen if a private prison operator were to breach the human rights of a prisoner, for example, or were to cease to exist, for whatever reason. Where would the liability fall for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have seen some examples in recent years of significant sums of money going from the Crown to prisoners, when it has been determined that their human rights have been breached. So I am keen to know from the Minister where the liability for any breaches of that would fall, particularly in light of section 199B in the bill\u2014and I did not get a chance to raise that earlier in the debate. I will keep my comments very short because I am aware that the time for this debate has nearly expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is clearly a decision by the National Government that is driven solely by ideology. It cannot be driven by evidence, because there is no evidence. I have sat through the entire debate this evening waiting for any member from National, the ACT Party, or the M\u0101ori Party to actually produce a single shred of evidence that a private prison will be more effective than a public prison in any way, but all members opposite have been able to do is talk in very general terms. There is no proof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc9cebdf28624b7da812ac99589bee12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc9cebdf28624b7da812ac99589bee12\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f20d38e22bd3424187494cb2870d31e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e9eb7a841494851b9967ef71bb11e38\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223837861c8a694643879280fa4c931fb1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243649589a735481f8c7d3b680469b2bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226840f60b3c814632b0ec22199de6298d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221034ccd155354bf08c8ac6d029d72bac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001345\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001346\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002263757a6023744979a92f4bcd8357f0b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263757a6023744979a92f4bcd8357f0b1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d12b920c2d054f0fb3d46887f2a46ea1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7e6184132424155b8aad76971539a00\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221412fc9ff60b405b9516e72f2759fd22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221412fc9ff60b405b9516e72f2759fd22\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill puts in place the Government\u2019s policy to allow competitive tendering for contract management of prisons on a case by case basis. The Government wants New Zealand to have a world-class corrections system. We believe that allowing for contract management of prisons will create much-needed opportunities for the entire system to benefit from outside-sector initiative and expertise. We want a contract manager to support and enhance the Department of Corrections\u2019 overall performance in providing for safer communities and reducing reoffending. Contract management will allow learning to be gained and shared throughout the prison system, so that all prisons become more effective and efficient as a result. We will ensure that real gains are made in providing opportunities to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori who encounter the prison system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe previous experience that New Zealand had with contracting out prison management at the Auckland Central Remand Prison earlier this decade was generally positive. In particular, the Department of Corrections was able to retain many of the innovations introduced by the contract manager. This bill strikes a good balance between a flexible contracting framework that will encourage innovation and the protections needed to ensure public accountability. While providing for a number of different safeguards, the bill also gives scope to contracting parties to negotiate the specific terms and conditions of their contracts with relative flexibility. This is important because the management of each of New Zealand\u2019s prisons will differ depending on the unique characteristics of the prisoners at that prison, its geographical locality, and the interventions to reduce reoffending operating within that prison. Very few of our prisons are exactly the same, and the bill provides room for contractors and the chief executive of the department to agree on how the needs of any one or more of our prisons can best be met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMuch of the debate on this bill has focused on the safeguards needed to ensure that the contract manager is held accountable. It is worth canvassing the most significant of those again. Because the changes reflected in the bill will sit under the umbrella of the Corrections Act 2004, they must be carried out in a way that is consistent with the principles of that Act. Those principles guide the operation of all of the corrections system, including contract-managed prisons. The principles include the maintenance of public safety as the paramount consideration and also involve the fair treatment of prisoners, their rehabilitation, and their reintegration. As with public prisons, contract prisons will have to comply with all relevant New Zealand legislation. This includes contractual obligations to comply with the Corrections Act and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, as well as all relevant international obligations and standards. Another key feature of the Corrections Act is the accountability that it sheets home to the chief executive of the Department of Corrections. Prisoners remain in the legal custody of the chief executive at all times. That will not change when a prisoner is held in a prison managed under contract. The performance management regime is set out in the bill. The contract must specify objectives and performance standards for the management of the prison and for the care of the prisoners in that prison. The bill states explicitly that they may not be any lower than the objectives or standards already required of prisons managed by the department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the primary features of the bill is the way in which it supports the chief executive\u2019s accountability by establishing the role of prison monitors. That is one of the areas that received the most scrutiny when the bill was at the Law and Order Committee, and the monitors regime now in the bill is comprehensive. The bill establishes three different types of prison monitor: primary monitors, who are located at the prison and monitor its compliance with the terms of its management contract and with the law on a day-to-day basis; those who assist the primary monitors to undertake their role as and when required, which means that there will always be sufficient staff resource available to properly oversee the activities of contractors; and specialist monitors with particular expertise in different areas, who are appointed from time to time to investigate certain matters if and when they come to light. Examples of the sorts of monitors who might be appointed in this context include the department\u2019s anti-corruption team; its national intelligence unit; specialist health care staff, who could be appointed to review health services that might be run by the contract prison; or experts in the provision of services for M\u0101ori, who could review the suitability of the contractor\u2019s M\u0101ori-focused initiatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAll of these different types of monitors have significant powers of access to staff, prisoners, prison records, and all parts of the prison itself at any time of the day or night. They are all appointed by, and report directly to, the chief executive, effectively acting as his or her eyes and ears in the prison at all times. In addition, contractors will be required to provide reports on all serious incidents within the prison involving escapes, escape attempts, or prisoner deaths, to provide regular reports on the use of disciplinary powers within the prison and the outcome of all disciplinary proceedings taken against prisoners and/or staff, and to provide reports providing the details and results of all random drug testing that has been carried out within the prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee deliberations on the bill, and subsequently during the bill\u2019s second reading debate, a number of concerns were raised about the issues of public accountability and parliamentary scrutiny. I would like to point out that prisons managed under contract will be subject to the terms of the Official Information Act 1982 in exactly the same way as the department currently is. Contract prisons will also be subject to the Ombudsmen Act in exactly the same way as prisons managed by the department. That means that prisoners will continue to have the right to complain to the Ombudsman about any aspect of their management or treatment, and the Ombudsman will continue to have the power to conduct independent investigations into the management and treatment of prisoners where it is appropriate to do so. Furthermore, the Auditor-General is able, at any time, to investigate the way in which the department is managing any and all of its prison management contracts, and, for that purpose, has access to all relevant documentation held by the contracted prison managers. The bill also requires every prison management contract or variation to it to be tabled in Parliament within 12 sitting days, which will ensure that all the detail of that contract, or any variation of that contract, is publicly available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill protects the interests of staff working for a contract manager. The bill requires contract prison managers to comply with the requirements of those parts of the State Sector Act that invoke the requirement to be a good employer. Under the provisions of the bill, it will be a contractual requirement for each contract prison manager to appoint and train sufficient suitable staff to enable the contractor to carry out its statutory and contractual obligations. This is a very important qualifier. Not only must sufficient staff be appointed to enable the contractor to carry out its various obligations properly, but also they must also be suitable staff. They must also be appropriately trained on an ongoing basis. The contractor must regularly report on appointments and training so that the prison monitor and chief executive can monitor their performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes a specific point of protecting the interests of staff who are members of the Government Superannuation Fund. It ensures that existing staff who transfer their employment to contract prison managers are still deemed to be in Government employment for the purposes of their Government superannuation fund entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe treatment of prisoners is also well covered. The chief executive of the department will remain responsible for all prisoners in New Zealand and accountable for what happens to them. That includes prisoners held in prisons managed under contract. Contract prison managers must comply with the same obligations and standards as public prison managers. If they do not, they will be in breach of their contract. Prisoners will also have the right of redress directly against the chief executive, who remains answerable for what happens to them while they are in the custody of the private provider. The continuing role of the Office of the Ombudsmen also provides further protection for prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill has been further enhanced during the select committee\u2019s consideration by the committee\u2019s recognition of the importance of providing prisoners with employment and skills development. Employment and skills development are essential activities that help prisoners with their eventual reintegration back into the community, and the committee agreed that those things should be recognised in their own right. The bill now requires contractors to provide specific reports on the provision of employment and skills development to prisoners, alongside the pre-existing requirement to report on rehabilitative and reintegration programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill makes an important provision for the department\u2019s ongoing relationships with other State agencies to continue, unaffected by the fact that some of its prisons will be managed by private sector providers in the future. A number of other Government agencies, such as the New Zealand Police, the Ministry of Social Development, and the Department of Labour, rely on information about offenders provided by the Department of Corrections in order to perform their own statutory functions and duties. The bill ensures that that information will continue to flow as it needs to between staff at prisons managed under contract to the Department of Corrections and relevant Government agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOpening up prison management to tender will enable the Government to reap the benefits of innovation in the prison system as a whole. In keeping with the principles of the Corrections Act, this bill will improve public safety and contribute to the maintenance of a just society by contributing to the safe, secure, humane, and effective containment of prisoners. This bill will provide an effective statutory framework for the regulation and control of prisons managed under contract in New Zealand. I am committed to its successful implementation. I now commend this bill to the House for its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4808bdb4c264b68a76fc57306c224fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4808bdb4c264b68a76fc57306c224fd\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E The quality of the debate justifying the passage of this Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill has been very poor. Essentially, Government members have taken every mention of the failure of the private sector internationally as a reflection being cast on the quality of our own judiciary and our own Public Prisons Service, when in fact the opposite is true. Our position on this side of the House supports the integrity of our prison service and the independence and integrity of our judiciary. We have argued a philosophical view, and it is quite clear that there is an ideological divide across the House. Our view is that the deprivation of liberty is one of those core State functions that should not be contracted out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI believe that international jurisprudence is coming in behind to support the view that we would present. I know that it is not popular with members of the Government, because, essentially, they do not believe that any human rights arguments are available to be debated on this subject, but that is not the case internationally. I have warned the Government of the implications of the Supreme Court of Israel\u2019s decision to overturn the privatisation measures that had been undertaken there. But these warnings have been ignored by the Government. I want to remind members of what they say, because I think it is worth writing it into the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EEssentially, the argument was that the Supreme Court of Israel would not normally intervene in economic policies, but in this case the President of the Supreme Court held that the legislation harmed basic constitutional rights. Israel\u2019s basic legal principles hold that the right to use force in general, and the right to enforce criminal law by putting people behind bars in particular, is one of the most fundamental and most invasive powers in the State\u2019s jurisdiction. Thus when the power to incarcerate is transferred to a private corporation whose purpose is making money, the act of depriving a person of his liberty loses much of its legitimacy. Because of this loss of legitimacy, the violation of the prisoner\u2019s right to liberty goes beyond the violation entailed in the incarceration itself. Efficiency, she wrote, is not a supreme value when the most basic and important human rights for which the State is responsible are at stake. I know that members opposite do not like listening to the learned words of a Supreme Court judge, but the point I was making was simply to warn the Government that this is a movement that is happening internationally, and we cannot be impervious to those views that are being expressed, because they will matter to New Zealand as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Government has said there is no core function of the State; it has said there is no such thing. There is nowhere that it would draw the line; anything is up for privatisation or competitive management. We were told by the Minister of Corrections that the only question we need to ask is \u201CWhat works?\u201D. That is the only question. Anything goes, but it has to work. I make no apology for holding the views that I do, but it would be a mistake for anyone in this House to argue that they conflict with the mantra \u201CWhat works?\u201D. I am actually a great believer in what works. It has been the driver behind the Opposition\u2019s offer to the Government to work collaboratively on early intervention so that we can reduce our prison population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI was invited to a meeting with the Minister of Justice and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs on early intervention, and I was really impressed with the quality of that meeting. I went back to the Labour caucus and told it that we had to offer up something, that we had to work with the Government on that issue. Early intervention is where, we all agree, the most good can be done, if we are genuinely to do something about our prison population. What has the Government\u2019s response been to that general offer? Nothing. We are still waiting. I have had a letter asking that we work together on Sale of Liquor Act issues, knowing full well that it is a conscience issue, but there we go. A genuine offer was put on the table to work with the Government collaboratively on something that really would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister of New Zealand has hired a scientist to sit at his right hand to guide the Government on an evidence-based pathway. Yet the approach that the Government is adopting here is not evidence-based at all. I really support the hiring of a scientist to sit at the right-hand side of the Government\u2019s highest decision-maker; I just think it is really important that he is listened to. He is saying that an evidence-based pathway is the way forward. We have heard the Government tout the UK system, when the league table shows that 10 of the 11 private prisons in the UK fit within the bottom 25 percent of all the prisons in the UK. The facts speak for themselves. This is not a seriously good argument that National members are proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party blew the cobwebs off arguments that I thought had been buried in the crypt alongside its founding member, but even he could not help himself. He had to get to his feet to argue that competition and profit were the only way that we could get value for money, the only way we could get results. Competition is great for consumers. It is fantastic for consumers. As a former Minister of Commerce I am well aware of the anti-competitive measures that many in the private sector take, particularly in order to take public sector contracts and milk them for all they are worth, as we have seen in the newspapers in the last few days. They want the benefits to accrue to themselves, because they are profit-making businesses and they would rather not see the benefit go to the consumers. That is what competition was designed to preserve\u2014benefit for the consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt is a question of whether the profit motive is the driver we want in a service that benefits from keeping its business full of people. It is absolutely counter-intuitive that we would want the profit motive driving our prison service, of all things. That has been the problem overseas. The incentives have been utterly and completely perverse: keeping people in for longer, punishing them for minor infractions while they are in jail, keeping them there for longer and longer, ensuring that the prisons have their fodder, that the prisoners keep coming back because of the revolving-door syndrome. Private prisons need to keep seeing them return, because that is where the profit lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not feel that way about the not-for-profit sector. There is an enormous difference, and I disagree entirely with the Minister of Maori Affairs on this issue. I see the real role for the so-called non-public in the not-for-profit sector, where a lot of M\u0101ori organisations work, where a lot of Pasifika agencies work, and where agencies like the Salisbury Street Foundation have made a huge difference in terms of really turning round the lives of people and ensuring that habilitation and rehabilitation take place. I think this is where the M\u0101ori Party tragically was sold a pup by National. It offered it a slice of the action, when, in fact, M\u0101ori could have a much more important role in reducing the prison population and reducing reoffending rates. The Salisbury Street Foundation, as I have mentioned, stands testament to the value that the not-for-profit sector adds to the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about that. It is actually about carving off a profit centre in the shape of people who have offended against the laws of the State, and allowing not only the cost of their incarceration to be passed on to the taxpayer but the provision of profit to the private sector to be passed on to the taxpayer, as well. That is what I object to. The Minister did not once answer the question on cost. We know that the private prison experiment that we had in this country once before was more costly than the public sector alternative. It was more costly, and there is no question about that. Overseas, the costs have been higher, the rates of suicide have been higher, the rates of escape have been higher, and the damage done to prison guards has been higher. The price we pay those prison guards has been lower, and the price the taxpayer pays has been higher. This bill is on a hiding to nothing. It is not something that we stand for, and the Labour Party will be opposing it vigorously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfe901ffb56f485cbdcc7c179826b2a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfe901ffb56f485cbdcc7c179826b2a3\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to be speaking on the third reading of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. That is exactly what the bill is about: contracting out just the management of prisons. It is about innovation, new ideas, and great leadership that provides great outcomes. That is the sort of leadership that National is providing and that is the sort of leadership that we are getting under a new Minister of Corrections, who is actually making a difference in corrections, which is long overdue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI commend my Law and Order Committee colleagues, the select committee staff, and also the officials, who did an outstanding job in meeting the many demands placed upon them during the progress of the bill. I am delighted that we are supporting this bill, that it is coming to the end of its duration in Parliament, and that it will very soon be an Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022feda16e535e949a696233f0dac4f7907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feda16e535e949a696233f0dac4f7907\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We have listened now to two National Party speakers, and we are still waiting to hear cogent reasons for the contracting out of prison management, and for the purpose of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. We heard the previous speaker, Sandra Goudie, say this bill is about innovation. Well, where is the innovation? One of the items that was raised by the Minister of Corrections, in the Committee stage, concerned an initiative to bring M\u0101ori issues within the prison. But that was not brought in by private prisons; that was brought in by a public sector prison in Hawke\u2019s Bay. That was where the initiative started. It was not a private sector initiative, at all. The Minister learnt a second thing when she got advice from her own Department of Corrections about going to Australia to look at private prisons. The department said there was nothing good, nothing new, or nothing worthwhile there when looking at this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker also said we had seen innovations by this National Government, and I say that is probably closer to the truth than anything else. The National Government came to power with a sort of pragmatic view, and said to New Zealanders that everything they had been given under the previous administration they would get from National, plus more. People were told they would also get tax cuts and all sorts of other wonderful things. In fact, piece by piece, we are seeing the true face of National. It is a classic right-wing agenda. The right believes in minimum Government. It believes in tax cuts. We have seen tax cuts under the National Government, but people who do not earn over $40,000 a year did not receive anything. The tax cuts that the Government brought in saw over a third of them go to the top 3 percent of income earners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca39ea5927d24f6e915599f2dc56fbe8\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s worn-out scaremongering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647dbee9031f4b1999d3f2a55295c7b7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It might be worn out, but the Hon Tau Henare knows that it is absolutely true. The other aspect of the right-wing agenda is deregulation, and we have seen that happen in amendments to the Resource Management Act. Another aspect of that agenda is contracting out. These are ideological positions, whether or not they make good sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe point about this decision is that if it is not ideological and there is evidence for it, then let us examine the evidence. I say to the House and to the National Government that there is no evidence to suggest that privately managed prisons are better, safer, cheaper, or more innovative than State-run prisons. There is no evidence of that, whatsoever. In fact, the evidence is entirely in the other direction. In the absence of any concrete evidence we are able to conclude, without doubt, that this decision is driven purely by ideology. It is part of National\u2019s programme of privatisation over time. National has said it is not going to privatise some things in this term of Parliament, but it has not said to the public that it is not going to privatise, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIn fact, when we look around the world, and we look at the advice from the United States, we find there is a terrible legacy from privately run prisons. The list goes on and on. A country that is much closer than the United States to New Zealand in its structure, its history, and its background is Canada. Just 3 years ago Canada ended the privatisation experiment and returned all of its prisons to the public sector, saying after 5 years the Government could find no appreciable benefit from privatisation. Canada is very similar to New Zealand, and after 5 years it could find no appreciable benefit of privatisation. That is the Canadian experience. The United Kingdom, another country with which we share a lot of similarities, had a similar experience. The report of the National Audit Office of 2003, some 6 years ago, stated that the performance of the prisons was mixed, but it said almost all of the bottom-ranked prisons were privately managed. It stated that the worst-performing prisons in the United Kingdom were in the private sector. That is the evidence. Canada and Britain have shown that the privately run prisons were amongst the worst-performing prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand we have our own experience of privately run prisons. What did we have with the Auckland Central Remand Prison? Well, the first thing we have been told by the Government is that private prisons are more efficient. But being \u201Cmore efficient\u201D would mean that they are more cost-effective. Well, the facts from the Minister\u2019s own department show that the Auckland Central Remand Prison was more expensive than the public prisons. On every measure it was more expensive. So we will have higher costs to the taxpayer. The Minister said privately run prisons would do better with rehabilitation. Well, if the basic costs are higher, then obviously rehabilitation costs will be on top of that. And we all know there will have to be a profit on top of that, again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut there is worse to come. The Law and Order Committee heard directly from people who were employed in the Auckland Central Remand Prison\u2014they were staff who turned up to the hearings\u2014who said that by talking to the select committee they had put their future employment at risk. This was evidence that they knew could put their future employment at risk. They were people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317ccf13cf6b4d88a1bdf1fcd56f3627\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819d905a8cf742cdaf0234ae2d9c2c5c\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CRubbish!\u201D, but that is what they said. Everybody agreed that this was the case, and that going on record was putting their future employment at risk. There was no doubt about that. Despite the fact that they were putting their future employment at risk, they made it very clear to the committee that statistics within the privately run prison were massaged. They did not want to get bad statistics, and they were encouraged by their management not to have them because that would put the contract at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAnd here comes the rub: if we have a privately managed prison and the determination that it will be privately managed is by the say-so of the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections, then the chief executive has a vested interest in ensuring that the statistics for the prison are good. The management of that prison has a vested interest in ensuring the statistics for that prison are good. What the Government is happy for us to rely on is the belief that the accounting systems run by the privately run prison and the accounting systems run by the chief executive are correct and will tell us with absolutely deathly accurately what went on in that prison. Well, I say that is not good enough. I say that is not good enough, because they both have a vested interest in ensuring that the outcomes look good on paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EA lot of people put a great worth and store on auditors. I happen to be someone who thinks that audits have a limited use. People want to think audits are great should look at two fabulous world companies: WorldCom and Enron, both of which had fantastic audit reports. Those companies sucked in billions of dollars into them, only to crash overnight and disappear, with not a scrap left. They both had fantastic audits. One of their auditors was Arthur Andersen, a company that did extensive business here in New Zealand, but which disappeared completely. Let us be clear that audits are no guarantee whatsoever that things are right, particularly when the auditors are chosen by the organisations themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENow Parliament has its own auditor, the Auditor-General, because over time Parliament understood that departments that chose their own auditors gave Parliament figures that it could not entirely rely upon. So Parliament made the decision to get its own auditor: the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General. This House has asked for, and been denied by the National Government, the right of the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General to have complete and unfettered access to all of the information on this issue. Well, we have been turned down by the Government. I ask the Government members what they have to hide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Corrections says the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General will have full access to all the information. Well, yes, it will have; it will have sheets of paper, and information supplied by the contractor and by the department. She says the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General will have access to the department\u2019s staff. Yes, it will have, but that does not mean that the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General will have access to the staff of the privately run prison. It will not necessarily have that, because those staff will be employees of a private company. The Office of the Controller and Auditor-General does not have automatic right of access to the employees of a private company. Labour wanted to change the law so that the Office of the Auditor-General would have direct access to those employees, just as it has access to the staff of every Government department in New Zealand. If it wants to go through and audit, for example, Work and Income, the Ministry of Social Development, or Treasury, not only can it look at the figures and interrogate the books but it can talk to the staff and get a feel for what is happening on the ground. The Government\u2019s decision not to give the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General direct contact with the staff, I think, puts a veil between that office\u2014Parliament\u2019s auditor\u2014and the contract prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis brings me back to the point made by the Hon Lianne Dalziel. Parliament passes laws to give judges the power to incarcerate people and to deprive them of their liberty. The incarceration of those people is handled by the executive arm of Government via the department. If we as parliamentarians want to ensure that the powers that we have delegated to judges and to the Department of Corrections are handled correctly, then the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General must have unfettered right of access to these institutions, but the Government has denied Parliament that right. I think the Government is wrong. The Government has decided to push this legislation through for ideological reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00227f36ce9fc5064f8390b4cd3e980902be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f36ce9fc5064f8390b4cd3e980902be\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens spoke very strongly in opposition to the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill when it was first introduced. Our opposition to it has become, if anything, more adamant as we have observed and analysed the information the debate has revealed to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe have heard much about innovation; the word has popped up regularly in a number of speeches. Indeed, the commentary on the bill includes the statement: \u201COpening up prison management to contractors provides an opportunity for innovation and change in the way in which prisons in New Zealand are operated.\u201D The word \u201Cinnovation\u201D caught my eye. We most often associate that word with ideas that are new and, generally, positive. It is often associated with some idea or proposal that is forward-thinking or even visionary. Sadly, this bill reflects a mind-set that is as far from being truly innovative or visionary as one could reasonably imagine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere is most certainly an urgent need for change in our whole approach to prisons and imprisonment. Successive Governments have tried and, it must be said, failed to find solutions. The failure of those efforts is indicated by the reality that, as a country, we continue to have one of the highest rates of imprisonment per capita in the world, and that rate continues to grow. The very dated mind-set behind this bill reflects the assumption that did so much harm in the 1980s and the 1990s, which is that public sector delivery of services is wasteful and ineffective and that private provision is more effective, more efficient, and generally cheaper. The privatisation of the Public Service during that time left a very costly legacy that has still not been repaired, and hard evidence for this case is simply not there, as we have heard a lot tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EComments made earlier today to the Law and Order Committee painted a very graphic picture of a Department of Corrections that is under enormous stress, and, indeed, stretched almost to breaking point. Despite spending millions of dollars each year locking up offenders, our rate of recidivism remains untenably high, with a strong correlation between rates of imprisonment and reoffending. The annual report of the Department of Corrections informed us that the number of serious assaults on one prisoner by another has risen by some 45 percent in the year 2008-09, compared with the previous year, and that serious assaults on staff have risen by something close to 80 percent in the same time period. The introduction of this bill adds to the enormous stress that already exists within corrections, and, not least, to the stress felt by prison officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne thing on which I think we can all agree is that our prison system is broken. But passing the responsibility for the management of prisons to private contractors is not the mechanism that can or will fix it. A number of speakers have reflected on the fact that one of the most potent powers that may be exercised by the State in a liberal democracy is the power to deprive an individual of his or her liberty, and freedom of movement and association. This power should be exercised exclusively by the State, with a direct line of accountability to the public. Introducing private enterprise management for profit of people incarcerated makes no more sense than would the private provision of other elements of the justice system\u2014the courts or the police\u2014or, indeed, of the defence forces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe idea of private prisons might be marginally more palatable if there could be some reasonable expectation of economic or social benefit arising from such a radical departure from historical and, indeed, contemporary norms. Again, the evidence is simply not there. The Corrections Association of New Zealand, which represents something like 3,000 prison guards, made the following comment in its submission to the bill: \u201CContracting prison operation will only be cheaper if the terms and conditions of employment for employees are reduced. This will lead to considerable difficulties with recruitment and retention of staff. This will expose the Corrections Officers and the prisoners to considerable risk. Potentially these risks will fall back on the Department.\u201D The association made the point that \u201Csmall rural communities will be disadvantaged by less attractive terms and conditions and the provision of profits to what are likely to be overseas based contractors.\u201D The association went on and expressed the very well-informed view that the bill, if passed, would inevitably lead to more dangerous prisons for staff and inmates alike. It voiced the very real concern that it is very inappropriate for anyone but an officer of the State to exercise extensive powers over prisoners, including the use of force in certain situations and the right of search and seizure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere is a very legitimate role for the private sector generally to open up new markets, expand business, and generate profit, and having recently come from the business sector, I am very supportive of those activities. In this instance, however, the success of the business model of a private prison would be assured if more people were locked up for longer. So where is the incentive for a private operator to reduce inmate numbers, to reduce recidivism, and to pursue rehabilitation and the much more complex goals of a functioning corrections service? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is all too well known that M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented in prison musters. My colleague Metiria Turei, in her first reading speech on this bill, pointed to the 2007 report entitled Over-representation of M\u0101ori in the criminal justice system, in which analysing the data from apprehension through to prosecution, conviction, and, finally, sentencing confirmed that M\u0101ori are much more likely to be apprehended and more severely punished than non-M\u0101ori. The M\u0101ori focus units in prisons have begun to gain some traction. There have been some positive outcomes from that initiative. This bill, however, offers no mechanisms to improve the sorry state of the statistics for M\u0101ori. Grossly disproportionate numbers of young M\u0101ori are in jail, but the bill does nothing to address this. There is no provision for access to kaum\u0101tua and no requirement to liaise with tangata whenua, nor is there any obligation for the monitor to report on such matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe prisons would operate through corporate structures that limit the liability, and that distance the parent company from that liability. This would leave joint venture partners such as iwi carrying liability. A very useful and important submission was made by Professor Jane Kelsey from the school of law at Auckland University. She made the point, already made tonight, that the Auckland Central Remand Prison experience of privatisation delivered distorted figures and outcomes, to the extent that it was a loss-leader for the Corrections Corporation of Australia to gain a foothold in the New Zealand prison service. It is clear that private contracts will focus on new prisons being built. They will have no interest in taking on a Victorian pile like Mount Eden Prison. They will leave the public sector to manage the older, run-down prisons, which will make comparisons between the two sectors wholly invalid. There is a distinct disconnect where contractors have access to official information, but reports on performance indicators and monitors\u2019 reports do not have to be released under the Official Information Act, because of commercial confidentiality. Too much of what could occur in a private prison could be concealed under that guise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe know that the global recession means that it is harder for private prison companies, like others, to get finance, and there are intense pressures to maximise short-term profit. If profits fail to meet expectations, then there is pressure to renegotiate with the State, which may have to carry the risk of private failure. What would be the Government\u2019s position if a privately operated prison appeared to be getting into serious financial trouble? Could the State step aside and allow it to go broke? It is much more likely\u2014in fact, inevitable\u2014that the public purse would once again be called upon to bail out private enterprise that has failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe know that private prisons cut costs by reducing labour costs\u2014as labour costs typically represent about 80 percent of overall running costs\u2014through lower staffing levels and more electronic surveillance. Effectively our prisons would become electronic zoos, with brutalising, dehumanising effects on the inmates. The likelihood of their returning to those unfortunate places would be much increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think one thing we can all share is a common aspiration to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022341c00e86e9b4ee19e94a1717e2e9904\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member but his time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u002295bd4960f5794b32ae56b8f7fc4a4e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295bd4960f5794b32ae56b8f7fc4a4e7f\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to rise in support of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. The main reason I am so pleased is that we support anything that will benefit the justice system. I have listened very carefully to the debate, both here in the House and on television, and I have to say that I have heard nothing credible from members on the other side of the House or to my immediate right that would suggest that private prisons will not be an improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EData from the UK shows that privately run prisons are cheaper and, more important, that they deliver better outcomes. Closer to home there is plenty of evidence\u2014it has almost become boring repeating it\u2014from the time when Auckland Central Remand Prison was under private management to suggest that there are plenty of positives in such a system. Labour, in its 9 years in power, showed a great aversion to the private sector, bordering on the paranoid. Its decision to re-annex Auckland Central Remand Prison was based not on results, which were very encouraging, but rather on its own ideology. I applaud Mr Hipkins for finally admitting that his stance at least was based on ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThe decision to re-annex the Auckland Central Remand Prison cost $3 million in transition costs, but the social cost was even bigger. The Auckland Central Remand Prison was run in a formal partnership with Iwi Wh\u0101nui o T\u0101maki-makau-rau, an advisory board representing six northern iwi. For the first time, M\u0101ori were directly involved with the operation and management of the prison system, or at least a part of it. We have heard ad infinitum today and tonight that over half of New Zealand\u2019s prisoners are M\u0101ori. That is from a population of about 16 percent of New Zealanders. Many in M\u0101oridom wanted, and still want, to take ownership of that problem and resolve it. Old, intractable problems require new solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI applaud the M\u0101ori Party for having the courage to put up with the insults from members opposite for its decision to support a new direction. As I said during the second reading debate\u2014and it has almost become a clich\u00E9\u2014on all measures, including suicides, assaults on guards and prisoners, and escapes, Auckland Central Remand Prison fared much better when it was privately run. Those are not my words; they are those of the former Green MP Mr Nandor Tanczos. Yet he, along with the Greens and Labour, opposed it anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003ELet me be clear on this: Labour and the Greens opposed fewer suicides. They opposed fewer assaults, they opposed fewer prison escapes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220af0f94723254f68a1a3f04ad869537b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I find the words that the member used about me just then offensive. I have never, nor has any member here, opposed fewer suicides, which is what he just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be49b369fe034eb9b5b7f1f0e91be94d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I accept that point of order. Making comments like that can bring the House into disorder. I ask the member to withdraw that comment and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb86c21827d43d18cf7aa7f507c8936\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Since the last election and since this Parliament began, the Greens have opposed every single initiative by this Government to get tough on crime and the causes of crime. Private prisons will be a reality by the end of this evening. For the record, I ask the Greens again whether, in 2 years\u2019 time, if the results in terms of recidivism or any other measure are 25 percent better than they are today, they will still oppose private prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313aa825bdcb4ce292ea1d0c79d096a2\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking leave for another call for us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ef3712d8f8479a9041d2a3428d271d\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, no. There was no answer; just a bit of smartness. That is to be expected. If one is a member of the Labour Party or the Greens, blind ideology, and looking after one\u2019s union backers in Labour\u2019s case, is more important than results. It is more important even than people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EPrivatisation is not a right-wing conspiracy. Around the world it has become the norm. The World Bank noted recently: \u201CPrivatization is now so widespread that it is hard to find countries not using the approach. North Korea, Cuba and, perhaps, Myanmar make up the shrunken universe of the resistant.\u201D We can add the members opposite and the Corrections Association of New Zealand to that list. They think that the sky will fall in if the Government delegates to those who can do a better job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EIt has been very interesting to hear in numerous speeches from members tonight\u2014dozens, I think it would be fair to say\u2014that they see it as an article of faith that the operation of prisons is and must be a function of the State. But no one has actually said where that comes from. I ask which volume of Marx that comes from. Where does it come from? No one has explained to me or to this House why that is an axiom. The simple answer is that it is not. There is no tablet in stone, and there is nothing written by, and handed down from, the gods that says that the incarceration of prisoners convicted by the courts must be a function of the State. We heard Mr Barker, I think, talk about the army as another example of something that must be administered by the State. But the new member Mr Shearer is on record as saying that mercenary armies are in fact a good idea. So I wonder just where those members get that axiom from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI suppose that in 6 or 9 years\u2019 time, if Labour manages to get into power, we will not have Kiwibank and KiwiRail in the election of 2021; we will have \u201CKiwiJail\u201D as a campaign by members opposite. They are suffering from a phobia, and they need help. I have heard no good reasons from members on the other side to change my mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003ESince being here I have visited Rimutaka Prison, and P\u0101remoremo prison, which is now known as Auckland Prison. The staff there, in my observation, are doing their best. They are professionals; most of them would have nothing to fear if prisons were privately run. If people like Mr Hanlon and his union mates continue spouting the kind of allegations they made in the Law and Order Committee, they would indeed have plenty to worry about. I will give members on the other side another lesson in law. Unsubstantiated allegations made with the protection of Parliament are not, in fact, evidence. I do not think that any lawyers are left over on that side of the Chamber; they have all gone home. But that is the case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261282eee7b44424d8100545d143c53d7\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As you will be aware, the member cannot make reference to the absence of other members from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868af1301a2b44c1a821f871742abaf0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It was a generic point, and this is just an interruption to the debate. The point the member makes is well made, but the member speaking was not referring to individual members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4c42331c5e4334b6228e8621138cb1\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: This bill will shake things up, and that is not before time. I think that probably the one thing that everyone across the Chamber can agree on is that the present system is not working. It is not working for white people, and it certainly is not working for M\u0101ori. The M\u0101ori Party has expressed a strong interest in helping to revive the iwi - private sector partnership once again, and again I applaud its courage for doing that. I hope it works; I really do. This Government, unlike the previous one, will focus on what works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThe amusing irony for me is that our party, according to members on the other side, is supposed to be all about ideology. But in this case, we are at one with National and the M\u0101ori Party in pursuing what works. I say again, in conclusion, that no one would try to argue that what we have now\u201475 or 80 percent recidivism after 5 years\u2014is working, so this measure has to be an improvement. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9d63e15bd34447855a2f2b0c2c2105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9d63e15bd34447855a2f2b0c2c2105\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Associate Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a short call in the third reading of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill; I want to clear up a couple of issues from my earlier speech. Many of us have spoken about innovation, and the possibility of privatisation allowing for innovation. I made this point before. Mr Barker has spoken about the M\u0101ori focus units starting in Mangaroa Prison in Hastings. As I said earlier, I had a role in that. In fact, Peter Grant and I ended up in there, making the final decisions about the form of that prison. It actually turned out to be not how we wanted it, because the restrictions in being tied to the mainstream prison did not allow it to be free, or to operate freely with its own rules, custom, and culture inside it. For example, inmates were placed in the unit without even wanting to be there, but just to fill it up because the main part of the prison was short of beds. Others were taken out of that focus unit after they had reformed and were put back into mainstream, which was devastating for them in terms of what they had learnt and where they were travelling. The other one was case management. The whole idea of the focus unit was to put each inmate on a case management programme so that he could have an end goal, leave with wh\u0101nau out there to look after him, and not return. Also, the transfers that happened between prisons affected the unit. At the end of the day the recidivism rate was down only 7 percent; that drop should have been much more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThat is why we are building this new Whare Oranga Ake. This is a State arm of the system, but could quite clearly be a private prison, as well. M\u0101ori who are talking about possibly taking over the contract of a full prison cannot do so at the moment under the State, but they might be able to do it if privatisation was allowed. I have no problem with M\u0101ori doing that, because at the moment things are getting worse. Over 50 percent of our prison population are M\u0101ori, so why not give M\u0101ori a chance to see whether they can actually do a better job of reforming those in prison, just as we are looking for them to do so in education and other areas? In health Wh\u0101nau Ora is now coming up, with M\u0101ori working amongst our own people. I think it is really good because nothing will change unless the M\u0101ori people themselves feel like someone is leading them and there is an opportunity for them to actually get out of the situation that they are in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt is all about positiveness, and that is why I believe privatisation will bring innovation. One example arose when I went to Fulham Correctional Centre in Australia. I did not know that it had an Aboriginal group and a M\u0101ori group who did a welcome for us\u2014a kind of p\u014Dwhiri. We learnt afterwards that those two groups were at war with each other in that prison. There was conflict between the Aboriginal group and the M\u0101ori group, and the prison tried that welcome to bring them together. At the end of the p\u014Dwhiri, they were shaking hands and giving hugs. I checked up and they have quite a bond going now. They were able to do that; the private situation that I am talking about allows innovation. I have noticed flexibility with M\u0101ori in Dom Karauria\u2019s prison here in Auckland City. He allowed different elders to come in and do things, whereas in some prisons we have taken elders in they have had to go through the machine, which is quite humiliating because they are the cr\u00E8me de la cr\u00E8me of M\u0101ori society. They have been stopped in the middle of a speech, not allowed to have the food that consummates the occasion, and things like that, whereas in Dom\u2019s prison he was able to say to the whole prison that tea would be late that day because of such and such. So they have that kind of flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ENew Zealand prisons are so interrelated that what happens in one carries over into another, and so on. In prisons any little change of practice can cause a riot. For example, one day prisoners may be able to have beards and then the next day they are not allowed beards, and there is trouble; it is really important that the prisoners know where they are at. I believe that the flexibility allowed in private prisons is worth a go, and also that the opportunity for M\u0101ori to get in there and have a go at running them themselves is also worth trying. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u002229b3282c048b4287b07b29e93c4507b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229b3282c048b4287b07b29e93c4507b8\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I very much appreciated the sentiments of the Hon Dr Pita Sharples in his speech. I believe his speech highlighted one of the great advantages that the private management of prisons enables, in terms of development and true, great results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the decency agenda that one of the previous speakers from Labour asked me to speak more on. I read a quote from a Labour MP who spoke during the parliamentary debate on offender management in the UK. I will quote the UK director of prisons from Her Majesty\u2019s Prison Service, Phil Wheatley. He was asked: \u201CWhat does decency in prisons mean to you?\u201D. Phil Wheatley replied: \u201CFair and consistent treatment of prisoners\u2014doing time is hard and it is not our job to make it any harder. Prisoners have to rely on staff intervention and cooperation so it is vital they are never unfairly treated or refused what they are entitled. Telling a prisoner you can\u2019t help because you\u2019re busy, when actually you\u2019re talking to your colleague about your holiday plans, is not decent behaviour. Human treatment and delivering promised standards for providing prisoners with a reasonable quality of life are also part of the decency agenda, as is treating prisoners within the law\u2014no one should be punished outside the rules. Finally it means getting the basics right\u2014providing clean, properly equipped and maintained facilities and protecting prisoners from others and themselves.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EHe was asked further: \u201CHow has the decency agenda helped with suicide prevention, which still remains high on the agenda?\u201D. He said: \u201CThe Service has been doing a lot of work with Cambridge University and research has shown that if prisoners\u2014many with mental health problems, serious drug problems and many facing the possibility of long sentences\u2014arrive at a good, safe, orderly prison with good regimes and good staff prisoner relationships, it can reduce the distress experienced by prisoners, which can lead to suicide or self-harm.\u201D Finally he said: \u201CThere is a lot of work to be done but we are well placed to implement improvements.\u201D He is acknowledging that there is room for improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI come back to the quote from Gerry Sutcliffe. He said that the first private prison opened in 1992, and there are now 11 such prisons operating in England and Wales, holding about 10 percent of the prison population. The companies that provide those services have developed a strong track record of delivery and are driving forward the decency agenda, as well as introducing innovation and increasing value for money in public sector prisons. So we see a combination of private and public working together to improve conditions for prisoners, as well as introducing innovation, which increases value for money in the public sector prisons\u2014exactly what the Hon Pita Sharples was talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI have visited a number of prisons, and every week a number of years ago I visited inmates in Block B of P\u0101remoremo prison, which is now Auckland prison. I have seen the quality of care that New Zealand prison staff offer. I was privileged last Friday to give awards to our prison staff in New Plymouth. They are doing a good job. This bill is about creating opportunity for private management to work together with the public to bring innovation and improvement in our prison service. I believe that this bill has great quality in it, and has enabled us to move forward. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00229445f12e58904c7fb40d0c1310d2e683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229445f12e58904c7fb40d0c1310d2e683\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I need to point out a few ironies before I get started on the main part of my speech. The first irony that I really have to point out goes back to what the Associate Minister of Corrections, Dr Pita Sharples, was saying earlier, with regard to some of his aspirations for M\u0101ori. I have to ask Dr Pita Sharples how those aspirations can possibly occur under the watch of the Minister of Corrections, Judith Collins, who in the past could not respect even the simple protocols that went with a simple p\u014Dwhiri. How, therefore, can she share in the aspirations that he has for M\u0101ori with regard to rehabilitation? She could not sit in a p\u014Dwhiri because she was told she needed to sit in the second row, yet she has now had some sort of renaissance in her thinking and she can now share the aspirations that Dr Pita Sharples has for M\u0101oridom? I find that very, very difficult to believe. At some stage, the fact that she truly does not share those aspirations will become uncovered, and at that point in time it will be an ugly, ugly sight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe second irony I have to mention is in regard to something that was raised in the debate on this bill. The irony is that at an earlier time Mr Young, a member opposite, discussed the fact that when Labour was in Government it had incarcerated such a high number of people. The argument prior to that was that Labour was not tough enough, and it had not incarcerated enough people, yet that member said in this Chamber that we incarcerated too many. We have heard on numerous occasions across this debate that the levels of incarceration have increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c76b4e537a4c42aba116288fc9dcae\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: I never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfff008a51c14805a7676a4933b61151\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I ask that Mr Young checks the Hansard for this debate; he will find that he did say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe third irony\u2014for there are so many\u2014is in relation to the next bill we will be discussing, which is the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. The Government is saying that private prisons will solve all problems, have better rehabilitation, make safer prisons, and be less costly for New Zealand taxpayers, yet the next bill we will be dealing with, the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, is basically legislating in anticipation of overcrowding in prisons. The Government is anticipating that prisons will not be able to cope with the sheer numbers who will be incarcerated, therefore it needs to legislate with regard to the use of court cells for the overflow in numbers. I have to point out that there is an irony in that, and it is something we cannot help but look at and think \u201CWell, what are they going on about?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe fourth irony I wish to discuss before I get on to my main points is the irony that comes with some of the things the chief executive has said. How can we think that this legislation is a good idea when the chief executive of the Department of Corrections wrote to his workers, in an email dated 8 June 2009, and said that at a time when the Government was struggling to cope with a global economic crisis and finances were tight, his budget therefore did not allow extra money for wage increases. He then stressed the importance of an agreement on reasonable terms: \u201CFailing this, I will have no alternative but to recommend to the Government other approaches which will include the option of private management of some established prisons.\u201D That sounds like a man who fundamentally does not support private prisons because they are better or safer; in fact, by his making a threat like that in relation to private prisons, he is reinforcing the fact that it is widely felt amongst corrections staff, including himself, that they are an undesirable option. Those are the things I wanted to point out before I got on to the main part of my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELabour members do not support the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. Labour members are of the view that the incarceration of citizens is a core Crown responsibility and, as such, should be under the direct control of the Crown through the Department of Corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e4091a07984cd1b6751d19e6f3b536\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Where does that come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219ef4e4ad9c64879b8bdb8b9f8380f9c\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Garrett would listen, I will tell him. Public prisons are morally and fiscally accountable to taxpayers, whereas private prisons are accountable to their shareholders, with a binding obligation to maximise profit. There is a risk that the pressure for a private company to show profit may lead to compromised service quality such as lower staff to inmate ratios, fewer rehabilitative services, a reduced range of services, cuts in staff pay and conditions, cuts in staff quality, or all of the above. Those were things that were discussed by the corrections union, and also by the prison officers who had worked in both the State-run prison and the privately run prison when Auckland Central Remand Prison was under private management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere is also the potential for abuse. When a profit-making company has the authority to restrict basic civil liberties, profit motives may supersede the safety of the public, staff, and inmates. We have heard of a number of examples of that happening in private prisons in Australia, America, and the UK, and we have also heard about some of the things that went on when the Auckland Central Remand Prison was under private management, with regard to reporting and the fact that things were hidden to ensure that the management could still make the profit it was trying to get out of our Government at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned that the passage of this bill will weaken the ability of members of Parliament, the media, and the general public to hold the private contractor to account in respect of corrections outcomes. At the present time members of Parliament can directly question the department, and hold it accountable through the use of select committee inquiries, the Official Information Act, and the use of parliamentary written and oral questions. These avenues are not available in respect of a private company. The Auditor-General at present has unfettered access to Government departments and agencies, and can inquire into any matter he or she feels is appropriate. It is our belief that under this legislation the Auditor-General\u2019s power and ability to inquire directly into matters pertaining to the private sector contractor will be limited. The Office of the Controller and Auditor-General reported to the Law and Order Committee that under this bill it would not have the power to audit a private company and provide an opinion on the performance of that company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe lack of independence of the people employed to monitor privately managed prisons is also a concern. Those prison monitors will be employees of the Department of Corrections rather than have an independent status. We also note with concern that there is no compulsory provision to require 24 hour, 7-day-a-week monitoring, and the Labour members on the select committee expressed the concern that while there would be someone there from 9 to 5, who would be there to monitor what went on for the remainder of the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe do not believe that a good explanation has been given for why there is a need for private management of prisons. In relation to costs and efficiency, there is no evidence to suggest that the privatisation of prisons would be more cost-effective and efficient than the current Department of Corrections model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFinally, we Labour members had serious concerns about the Government members using their majority on the select committee during the select committee process to block our access to Ministry of Justice officials. The ministry had input into the departmental report, and we believed that the committee would have benefited from hearing the views and the insights of the ministry. We questioned the motive for not allowing the committee access to those officials, and we were disappointed that this opportunity was denied when we were considering such a significant shift in our justice system. And, more important, constitutional issues are involved. The Government members used their majority vote to block Opposition members from making legitimate inquiries of a Government ministry that had specialist knowledge of the matters being considered. Just as members have a right to free speech, we believe that members, as select committee members, must have the right of access to officials and information. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00220cf8799ff03b44caa40d89afbee9ed23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cf8799ff03b44caa40d89afbee9ed23\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to speak to the third reading of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. Before I get going on that, I point out that it is ironic that the speaker who has just resumed her seat, Carmel Sepuloni, complained about constitutional rights; she was outnumbered on the select committee, so she was voted down. I take this opportunity to apologise to the officials. The member who just spoke, basically, insulted the officials, who actually helped us tremendously. I would like to thank them for their time and their tremendous help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI take a little moment to quote my taxi driver who dropped me off at the airport very early on Tuesday morning. When I told her that we would be debating this bill she said \u201CIt\u2019s about\u201D\u2014I do not think I am allowed to say the next word\u2014\u201C[bleep] time.\u201D I have to agree with her sentiments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EApart from the obvious ideologically driven objections from members opposite, one of the main concerns raised during the deliberations of the Law and Order Committee was the issue of whether the privately managed prisons will be as accountable as the publicly managed prisons. Well, the answer that we had, the advice that we had, and the discussions we had said yes. It was just that members opposite refused to listen to that. The Office of the Auditor-General can still audit the Department of Corrections. The cost and performance of the privately run prisons will still come under the jurisdiction of the department. Members of the Law and Order Committee were told that this morning by the chief executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI have mentioned in debate on earlier stages of this bill that we are not selling the corrections system; we want only to look at options for the private management of our prisons. If I can quote my wise taxi driver again, we cannot do any worse than we have done before. The Department of Corrections has had a terrible report card from the Audit Office. Mr Barker has referred in debate on previous stages of the bill to the woeful performance of the department. This bill provides an alternative, a choice in how we manage our prison population. Members opposite may not like choice, but to members on this side of the House choice is essential. It is wonderful. New ideas are being injected into a public entity that lacks innovation not only in management but also in inmate rehabilitation. It can only be a good thing to provide better options for all concerned. Prisoners will, hopefully, have a better rehabilitation rate, prison management will have better outcomes, and the public will feel safer for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons why I feel quite strongly that that will happen with this bill is that it sets standards in all aspects, including care of prisoners, performance standards, training for staff, etc. These standards are to be no lower than those of the publicly run, publicly managed prisons. That means that they will definitely be better than what we already have. Standards across the board will have to be better in privately managed prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn my humble opinion, we should all aspire to achieve better outcomes for all New Zealanders. I have heard many members opposite speaking passionately about wanting better outcomes for prisoners, but if we simply continue on the same path in the area of corrections, we will not improve. The Department of Corrections has struggled to produce better outcomes for our prisoners, and the repeat offending rate is bloated. That the Opposition keeps opposing this bill is simply hypocritical, as the previous Government did not improve the lot of inmates, and the public did not feel safer for the 9 years that Labour was in Government. We need to improve, we need to innovate, and we need to change for the better. This bill will provide that opportunity for the Department of Corrections. Hence, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9894a546a7c487c84caa09f3f3d4595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9894a546a7c487c84caa09f3f3d4595\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E That was another speech from a National member attacking the Opposition. Those members attack the people rather than the arguments, because the arguments on our side of the House are quite defensible. But Government members can produce no evidence and no facts or figures. All they can do is to attack the people on this side of the House who are raising arguments that those members do not agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee said that privatisation is a new idea. It is a new idea to Melissa Lee. Well, it dates back many centuries, in fact. Let us go back to the 19th century practice of prison labour leasing. I am referring to a document put forward by the Howard League for Penal Reform. It is very useful. Basically, it talks about the prison labour leasing that began in America in the 19th century. For a state fee, prisoners were housed, clothed, and fed by private contractors in return for their labour. A history of injustice, neglect, brutality, and high morbidity rates for the mainly black prison population was recorded, and by the early 20th century those leases were gradually phased out as the privately contracted work was returned to the control of the state. The idea is hardly new. It is not new. This debate goes back centuries, yet National members are saying that somehow they have had a grand new idea. Well, if winding back the clock a couple of hundred years is a grand new idea for National, I would hate to think what is coming next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will talk about who may end up running these private prisons, and what some of the risks involved in privatisation are, because significant risks are involved. Private prison operators are encouraged to cut costs, endanger the safety of their staff, and endanger the safety of the public. There is no incentive for them to reduce recidivism. I will talk particularly about the GEO Group. For example, my colleague Carmel Sepuloni raised earlier in the debate a case where the GEO Group placed a woman in a cell block with male inmates, who raped her and beat her, and she later took her own life. State authorities removed 125 inmates from a prison run by GEO Group\u2014the people whom National wants to run New Zealand\u2019s prisons\u2014because of inadequate staff training and inadequate health care. Those running the prison were found to have served rotten food. They knowingly made false and misleading statements to state officials. They failed to complete criminal record checks on at least 100 prison guards. I repeat: they failed to do criminal record checks for 100 prison guards. They violated domestic and international laws on due process and humane treatment. These are the people whom the National Government holds up as the bright hope for improving our prison service. Well, with a track record like that, members on this side of the House do not want a bar of it. If that is what the Government thinks the future of our prison service in New Zealand is, I think that is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is the wrong debate for us to be having in this House. I have sat here all night since we began this debate, and not once have I heard anybody from any party on the other side of the House talk about anything that would reduce the number of people who end up in prison in the first place. Surely, with New Zealand having the second-highest incarceration rate in the developed world, that is something that the Government would want to talk about. Rather than talking about how it can make a profit from locking up more and more people, perhaps it should talk about how to reduce the number of people who end up in prison in the first place. We have had nothing, not a jot, from the ACT Party or National on any of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFundamentally, this matter is an ideological debate for those members. It is all about how they can make a profit out of the activities of the State. National is absolutely ideologically wedded to the idea of privatisation. The ACT Party, the \u201CSelf-help Help Yourself Party\u201D, is completely and utterly off the planet when it comes to this type of thing. If those members can make a dollar out of it, they are into it. If they can make a buck out of it, then they are absolutely into it. But there is no evidence to suggest that privatisation will work. All the evidence goes the other way. All the academic research goes the other way. That is why we have heard none of it from Government members tonight. They simply cannot find any evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am sure that one of the reasons they blocked the Law and Order Committee from having access to the Ministry of Justice officials is that those officials probably would have told the committee that there is no evidence to support what the Government wants to do. We know that the officials told the Minister of Corrections that there is no evidence to support what she was trying to do, and that the evidence suggested, in fact, that it would probably have the opposite impact to what she was hoping. The select committee was not given the opportunity to hear that evidence. Melissa Lee boldly told us that that is called having a majority. She said that having a majority means that one blocks free speech and blocks the ability to look at the evidence to consider what may or may not work. That is what is being in Government is all about for National. It is all about ignoring the evidence. It is all about doing whatever the bumper sticker slogan says and doing whatever National\u2019s private corporate mates want it to do, without fronting up and producing a single shred of evidence that it will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party\u2019s opposition to this bill is based primarily on two grounds. The first is philosophical: we do not believe that it is the role of the private sector to incarcerate people and to take away their liberty. We believe that if that is to happen, then it is the role of the State. The second objection is simply based on the operation of this measure\u2014how it will work. It will not work. It will not reduce recidivism. It will not save any money, because we know that private prisons are more expensive than public prisons. The one example that we have had in New Zealand of a private prison was more expensive to run than a public prison. The National Government has produced no evidence to suggest that privatisation will work. Our objection to this bill is not based simply on principle; it is based on principle, but that is not the only objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200911249e884004b8a94fe39069d5f206966d9d001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287dd41422df94a4bb45fafad5a7a40d6\u0022\u003ETuesday, 24 November 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e80af5d50c9a44509f5f14480753671d\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 26 November 2009)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdbb60339b444a449866312b8f7b1135\u0022\u003ECorrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eaf3bc9c49f9455888cff6fff965be07\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00226a92a4d6872c40eea8c53e3d47dbb445\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a92a4d6872c40eea8c53e3d47dbb445\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E To recap what I was saying last night, the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill represents a purely ideological decision by the National Government to start to privatise the prisons. There is no evidence whatsoever to support what the Government is trying to do. There is no evidence that privatising the prisons will be cheaper. In fact, the only example in the New Zealand context proved to be more expensive for remand prisoners than the public prisons. There is no evidence that it will lead to less recidivism, and the international evidence suggests the opposite of that: recidivism rates from private prisons are higher than from public prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe best that the National-ACT Government could do was to put up Roger Douglas, \u201CMr Self-help, Help Yourself\u201D, to simply give us the same speech that he gives over and over again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4593d5058e7488c94c26e4beb484ed4\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: 25 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9d2ff2a2aad4ca2bbf250a61c620d48\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014he has given it for 25 years\u2014about the fact that the State is bad, everything the Government does is bad, and everything should be left to the private sector. This is the same party, of course, that put up Mr Garrett, whose best argument, I think, was articulated in his first reading speech. He said he thought private prisons would be cheaper than public prisons, because they would go round all the dairies in South Auckland and buy all of the stale food that was past its use-by date and feed that to the prisoners. That was the best argument that the ACT Party could come up with to suggest that private prisons would be more efficient and cheaper for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn the last minute or so, I say to the M\u0101ori Party that I agreed with a lot of the aims and objectives that Pita Sharples set out in what I thought was a quite thoughtful speech, in terms of what the prison service should aim to do and aim to deliver for prisoners. I absolutely agreed with a lot of what he said, but I do not see the connection between privatising the prisons and delivering on the aspirations that Dr Sharples set out. They are very worthy, but we do not need to privatise the prisons in order to do that. The Public Service, and all of our prisons, should be delivering on the types of aspirations that Dr Sharples laid out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo that is the wrong debate for the House to have. The debate should really be about why we have such a high incarceration rate in New Zealand. It is one of the highest rates in the developed world. This debate should be about how we reduce the number of people who end up going back to prison after they have been released\u2014how we can reduce the recidivism rate. It should not be about how we can cut corners and transfer money from hard-working taxpayers to overseas corporate owners of private prisons, which is what this legislation will enable. This legislation will enable the transfer of money to the American owners of the prison contract, if the National Government gets its way. There is no evidence to suggest that we will end up with a better-quality prison service as a result of that. The privatising of prisons is an ideological decision, it does not make sense, and the Labour Party will be opposing it at every step of the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b74604a1d4004bd199310c948d74fcab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b74604a1d4004bd199310c948d74fcab\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand has far too many people in prison. Our incarceration rates are among the worst, and are nearly the highest, in the Western World. Simply building more prisons and locking up more people will not give us the secure and inclusive society that we all desire. It might make some people feel better, it might make the Sensible Sentencing Trust feel better, but in the long run it is not where our attention should be. We must be more involved in addressing the causes of crime, such as poor housing, unemployment, alienation from family, and poor education and health outcomes. We must do this creatively and we must do this innovatively. But we have prisons, and the reality is that we have to deal with prisons as they are today. It is a fundamental principle of the Labour Party and of mine that the incarceration of citizens is a core Crown responsibility and it should be under the direct control of the Crown, through the Department of Corrections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIncarceration, and therefore the denial of liberty and freedom, is one of the most invasive powers of State jurisdiction. If we are to privatise it, we lose the moral authority that goes with incarceration. Public prisons are morally and fiscally accountable to taxpayers. Private prisons are accountable to their shareholders, and they have a binding obligation to their shareholders to maximise profit. Under the system that is being introduced today what we are saying is that profiting out of incarceration is OK; I say that that is wrong. Profit is what the private sector does best, and we on this side of the House are not opposed to profit. What we are saying is that the incarceration of people, the taking away of their liberties and freedoms, should not be the subject of profit. If fundamental roles, such as incarceration, can be privatised, why not privatise the police? If we do not believe that a fundamental role, like incarceration, is a State responsibility, why not privatise the police? Mr Garrett probably believes that we should do that. Why not privatise the defence force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e968203371374e3aa9fe3bee507fb410\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Shearer thinks we should have private armies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954cb50c186841e988669a8e7c0ee516\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Garrett interjects, as he did last night, about David Shearer. The member should read what David Shearer said, and he will realise that it has nothing to do with the privatisation of the defence force. But that probably is what Mr Garrett wants. Is it what the National Government wants? Is privatising those core functions of the State what the National Government wants? That is where we are going with this bill. That is the direction this bill goes in. It says that a core function, the taking away of freedom and liberty, can be handed over to the private sector. I say that that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill is wrong in principle, because it opens up New Zealand to legal challenge as to whether private prisons are constitutional. Last night we heard a number of descriptions of the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court, but this was dismissed by members on the other side of the House as not being relevant. But I caution those members that the people who brought forward this case in the Israeli Supreme Court said specifically that a worldwide precedent had been set. I am sure that organisations like the Howard League for Penal Reform will be looking very closely at the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and looking to see whether this can be put in place in New Zealand. Can a challenge be taken to the constitutionality of private prisons? We have seen this decision today, and last night we asked the Minister of Corrections, Judith Collins, to take a call to tell us whether she had had any advice about the Israeli decision. She refused to answer that question. I think it sets a very interesting precedent. I think that cases on the constitutionality of private prisons are likely to be taken around the world, and I strongly believe that the Minister needs to take this issue far more seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is no evidence to support New Zealand moving to private prison management because there is no evidence that it will deliver a safe, secure, transparent, and accountable system. We know that when New Zealand last went down this path, with the Auckland Central Remand Prison under private management, the costs were higher. The argument that it is somehow a more efficient and cheaper scheme simply does not stack up. The Auckland Central Remand Prison operating costs under private provision were $35,700 per prisoner, $57,280 when we include overheads, and $50,208 in public provision. The evidence from last time was that private management was not cheaper and it was not more efficient. The Law and Order Committee also heard from prison officers, who said that the standard of service, the standards that were put up when the Auckland Central Remand Prison was in private management, simply did not stack up. Corners are cut in the system, because in the end it is about maximising profit for shareholders. It is not about ensuring the safety and security of New Zealanders, or the safety and security of the staff who are involved in those prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAn important point to make is that members on this side of the House have argued this debate on principle. We accept the fact that there is an ideological divide on this issue, and we have argued it on those grounds. But we have also argued it on the grounds of evidence\u2014and evidence, in particular, from jurisdictions overseas that have gone down this path. In particular, we talked about the United States of America where over the years a number of reports have come through that have shown that private prisons have simply not delivered the outcomes that people around the world hoped they would. In particular, the role of the GEO Group has been raised a number of times. These are the people whom the National Government would have come into New Zealand and run our prisons. The GEO Group, formerly known as Wackenhut Corporation, has been involved throughout the world in the reduction of conditions in prisons, the reduction of safety in them, and in particular I want to focus on the reduction in terms of staffing. In 2001 the United States National Council on Crime and Delinquency produced a report on private prisons. It said that there was \u201Cno data to support the contention that privately operated facilities offer cost savings over publicly managed facilities\u201D. It went on to say that privatisation had led to a 15 percent lower ratio of staffing to inmates. Is reducing the ratio of staffing to inmates supposed to make our society safer? In the end that is what private operators will do. They will attempt to cut the corners and ensure that they maximise their profit. That is fair enough; that is what corporations do. But should we be involving those corporations in such a critical State responsibility in an area where safety is absolutely crucial when that is what we are opening ourselves up for and when that is what the evidence tells us from the United States? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIf we come a little closer to home we see that Australia has had, time and again, to relook at its privatisation. I mentioned during the Committee stage of this debate the situation involving the Metropolitan Women\u2019s Correctional Centre in Victoria. Following an inquiry in 2000 that found widespread drug use, deaths in custody, poor training, and cover-ups, the Victorian Government had to take that centre back into public control. I ask whether we really want to continue to repeat the failures of these prisons overseas. In the United Kingdom, a prison service report in 2008 stated that when they did a league table\u2014and we know how much National likes league tables\u2014of prisons in the UK by the prison service, 10 of the 11 private prisons were in the bottom quarter of prisons in that league table. So in respect of private prisons in the UK, we have evidence\u2014Mr Garrett wanted evidence last night\u2014that they are not working. Privatisation is not working in the United States, it is not working in the United Kingdom, and it is not working in Australia. In Canada, a private prison was brought back into public ownership because it was not working. So the evidence simply does not stack up. Internationally, the evidence does not stack up; inside New Zealand it does not stack up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the brief time remaining I want to say that it was a bit rich to be told last night by National that we were all about ideology on this side of the House on this issue. We are proud to stand up for our principles on this issue, but we did not see a scrap of evidence from National last night to actually back up why it is doing this. The chair of the Law and Order Committee, Sandra Goudie, who heard us speaking about this, said that the reason why National was doing this was to \u201Cgive it a go, give it a whirl, and see how it works\u201D. I am sorry, but the safety and security of New Zealanders is far more important than just \u201Cgiving it a go, and giving it a whirl\u201D. New Zealanders will regret the decision that National is forcing through under urgency. The incarceration of New Zealanders, the taking away of liberties and freedoms, is a core State role. New Zealanders deserve a quality public prison service rather than having it sacrificed for profit margins in the private sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c47856d1d654f9f8a4d0df25640b261\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc59a7c9aef048dab1c30030697a91cb\u0022\u003ECorrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221544c3fc71f6491bb332e4181af29d3d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9460eb92f374816900d660264e3b1c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9460eb92f374816900d660264e3b1c8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I intend that this bill pass through all stages before the House rises for the year, to ensure that the use of court cells is one of the measures available to us as we deal with the growth in the prison population in the new year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Corrections Act 2004 to enable the temporary accommodation of Department of Corrections prisoners in court cells as a last resort where there is insufficient capacity in the prison system. The use of these cells for Department of Corrections prisoners will not be allowed to interfere with the operation of the courts, including the normal function of these cells for detaining people who are appearing before the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAs the House is aware, the prison population is currently at around the highest level it has ever been, and it is forecast to continue to grow. The Government is taking a variety of steps to ensure that there is sufficient capacity to accommodate forecast prisoner numbers. These statistics include extended double-bunking, the use of modular or container cells, and now, through this bill, the use of court cells as a last resort. In addition to these measures to address capacity issues, the Government is implementing its manifesto pledges aimed to reduce the rate of reoffending. These include boosting the number of prisoners learning industry-based skills through corrections inmate employment by 1,000 prisoners by 2011, introducing three additional drug treatment units by 2011, doubling to 1,000 the number of prisoners able to undertake rehabilitation, and expanding literacy programmes so more prisoners leave prison better able to read, write, and do maths than when they entered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOf course, there are other measures that have been introduced or are being developed. This Government recognises the need to address the growth in the prison population both by increasing the capacity of the prison system and by ensuring that we reduce the rate of offending. This bill contributes to other measures to address the growing prison population by addressing a problem identified by the previous Government, specifically that despite having been declared to be part of Department of Corrections prisons by notice in the Gazette, most court cells cannot be used to temporarily house the department\u2019s prisoners as this use does not comply with the provisions of the applicable district plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis situation is not acceptable, as was recognised by the previous administration. However, the approach being taken by this Government differs from the one previously taken in that it avoids undue delay and cost by making changes to the Corrections Act as proposed in this bill. This problem will be addressed with the addition of a new subsection (2A) in section 32 of the Corrections Act and a consequential amendment to section 4 of the Resource Management Act. New subsection (2A) will provide an exemption from section 9 of the Resource Management Act, which deals with environmental requirements including district plans. If used, these cells will operate in accordance with an agreement between the Secretary for Justice and the chief executive of the Department of Corrections. This agreement would specify the cells to be used, the circumstances in which the cells will be made available, and would ensure that the use of these cells does not interfere with the normal operation of court business. Prisoners housed in these cells would continue to be treated in accordance with the provisions of the Corrections Act and subsidiary regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition, the proposed changes are consistent with national and international human rights law relating to the treatment of prisoners. In order to ensure that all prisoners receive their statutory minimum entitlements, Cabinet has agreed that the maximum period of detention in court cells will be 96 hours. Consistent with this Government\u2019s focus on value for money, the approach in this bill will save at least $200,000, compared with the approach previously being taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill corrects an anomaly in that the ability to temporarily house Department of Corrections prisoners in court cells that have been declared to be part of the department\u2019s prisons by notice in the Gazette depends on the particulars of the local district plan. The bill addresses this, while reducing the cost to the taxpayer by at least $200,000. The bill supports the Government\u2019s objectives of ensuring public safety and providing value for money for the public\u2019s tax dollars. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022867a9ff8640c4070881327c29c1b2ec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022867a9ff8640c4070881327c29c1b2ec6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party will be supporting the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, but will take advantage, with a bit of time, to point out to National that over the years it has been very, very critical of this practice. In fact the member who normally sits on the bench next to the Minister of Corrections who introduced the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249b956d8e10f4e4a85cf5361e8b4a08e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You should be congratulated for finally agreeing with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46a16a18bc74051bd849535e1b873f0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is a minor miracle, and if the Leader of the House wants to keep that up we can stretch the debate. I can congratulate him until the closure, if that is what he would like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe have a whole pile of cells around the place. They are not used anywhere near the way they need to be. They are not ideal accommodation for prisoners. They are certainly not good for keeping prisoners on a longer-term basis. But in my opinion, compared with some of the cells in some of the older prisons around the country, they are not the worst cells in the country. My view is that using them where necessary, in emergency situations, is logical and a hell of a lot better an idea than setting up a tent somewhere, especially to hold remand prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut I want to play back to National the comments of Tony Ryall. He said the use of court cells was a warning of a jail crisis. In 2005, when this measure was being introduced by Labour, he said it was a system in crisis. \u201CPolice continually warn about the dangers caused by holding prisoners in court cells \u2026 Mainstream New Zealand should be worried by this escalating crisis because it means there will be more prisoner compensation claims,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThat is what Tony Ryall said in 2005. [Interruption] I am very reluctant to adopt his words and to agree with him, so I will not. In respect of compensation, it was nonsense when he said it then and it is nonsense now. But it is a sign, I think it is fair to say, of a very, very lazy Minister of Corrections, who promised a lot more than she has delivered. She promised, for example, that she would have crates and containers all over the place to keep prisoners in. I expected she would have a line up of those down in Wellington. I expected that she would use Wellington Prison to a much greater extent than she is. But what is she doing? She is bringing in legislation here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI also think it is interesting that someone on the National front bench who is much more rational and much more reasonable than Tony Ryall was also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da56171a773647d2a0379dfbf02d2179\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c3849f3c554bba92313d40f6e8d705\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is not hard to name people who are more rational than Tony Ryall. The particular member I was thinking of is Simon Power. On 22 November 2005 he said: \u201CWith prisoners being housed in vans,\u201D\u2014and I gather that is the next National policy\u2014\u201Cshowered at rugby clubs, and kept in police and court cells, how can the Minister convince the members of the New Zealand public that they are safer since he became Minister of Corrections?\u201D. And that is the issue here. How can Judith Collins convince people that we are safer since she became Minister of Corrections? I want to know why this legislation has taken a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cfd7e47930417398140ef0a4507b80\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Tent city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221afdf370ddfa452ea39bc20fa9a43e36\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly the tent city has not worked. I would have thought that in any decent emergency situation getting hold of a few tents, going to Stewart Island, Matiu Island, or somewhere like that, putting up the tents, and sticking the prisoners there would not be too much of a problem. That is what Judith Collins promised she would do, but she is such a lazy member, that she cannot even wander down to the Warehouse or Kathmandu and get a few tents to put prisoners in, in the way she promised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAll we have here is evidence of a lot of hot air from Judith Collins. You know, she likes to act tough. How many cars have been crushed? Not one. How many prisoners are being held in containers? Not one. She is beginning to be known as the Minister of the eight-letter word that we are not allowed to use in this House, and it has to do with bovine animals. She is the \u201CMinister for What Comes Out of Bovine Animals\u201D. That Minister is not delivering. She fronts up tough, she puts her chin out, and she lifts her chest. But does she deliver in the portfolio? No, she does not, at all. She is all puffery, and she shows no action whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to know why, if the Minister was confident about this bill, she did not send it to the select committee. Why did she not have the confidence of her own intelligence to send the bill to a select committee and have it tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c0062c7618a4e6cb05713035de13337\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61847cde671466a98503bb7869e91cd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: She is laughing because she does not have the confidence of her own intelligence to defend the bill at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is happy to get the Government out of the hole. We do not want prisoners running round because that Government has not acted properly. We do not want prisoners up and down the streets, the way they would be if they were being held in tents, as she was promising. We will support her. But if we were allowed to use the word \u201Chypocrisy\u201D in this House, I would have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ca3ef1c8e74fbb91c3adde2c70ca47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ca3ef1c8e74fbb91c3adde2c70ca47\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to be able to speak in support of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, and I commend the Minister of Corrections, the Hon Judith Collins, for bringing it to the House to correct the anomaly that she referred to in her address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe prison system is under pressure, and although we work very, very hard and with a great deal of success under the Minister\u2019s leadership and with the Minister of Justice, the Hon Simon Power, to keep our community safe and deal with the drivers of crime to keep our people out of prisons, we need to make sure that in the interim we have some fall-back positions, and that is exactly what this bill provides. I am delighted to be able to speak in support of it and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4afa5af31b743fc943ae658f8028f10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4afa5af31b743fc943ae658f8028f10\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Labour supports the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, but, following on from my colleague Trevor Mallard, I will outline a number of ironies that we need to point out with regard to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFirst I will go over the purpose of the bill. The bill amends the Corrections Act 2004 to enable the temporary accommodation of corrections prisoners in court cells as a last resort when there is insufficient accommodation in the prison system. The bill provides that the requirements of section 9 of the Resource Management Act do not apply to the detention of prisoners in court cell blocks that are declared by notice in the Gazette to be parts of a corrections prison. The bill does not contain restrictions on the accommodation of overflow prisoners in court cells. However, administrative safeguards will be put in place to ensure that this will occur only if it is strictly necessary, that the normal functioning of the courts will not be compromised, and that prisoners will continue to receive their statutory entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELabour supports the bill, but finds it somewhat ironic that National is pushing through a bill to allow prisoners to be housed in court cells even though it criticised us for doing the same thing. I want to point out some of that criticism. On 14 June 2005 Tony Ryall said that the growing use of police and court cells was a warning of a jail in crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44b7d9b6db74c9d9cdbefae26494d39\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00ed4eeac274837b1b648f029d9360f\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Tony Ryall\u2014the current Minister of Health\u2014when in Opposition, in 2005 said that the growing use of police and court cells was a warning of a jail in crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe are aware of the fact that there is a crisis going on with regard to crime in New Zealand, and that it has been going on since National took office in 2008. When we refer back to what Tony Ryall said, it just confirms what we already know. It is a message that we need to get out to the public with regard to what this Government is not doing to resolve the problems that we have with crime. Another person from the National Government, Mr Simon Power, said on 22 November 2005: \u201CWith prisoners being housed in vans, showered at rugby clubs, and kept in police and court cells, how can the Minister convince the members of the New Zealand public that they are safer since he became the Minister of Corrections?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELast night we debated the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill. It was pushed through because the National Government believed that private prisons will be safer, better, and cheaper for New Zealand. Yet here we are now with the Government pushing through a bill that is basically opening up the prison system so that more prisoners can be held in court cells because the Government knows it will not be able to contain them in the prisons we have. There is a certain irony there that I really feel I need to put out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne thing I really want to highlight is that we are here discussing the need to find accommodation for an excess of prisoners who will not be able to be held in our prisons due to the fact that there will not be enough accommodation for them. Yet one thing the National Government is not discussing in detail is the fact that crime is on the rise. It has been on the rise since National took over in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe National Government continues to ignore the fact that there is a strong correlation between crime, unemployment, and poverty. Unemployment and poverty are the two things that this Government is not addressing. It will continue to put through legislation that acts as an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but it will do nothing to ensure that we reduce the numbers of people committing crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI found an article on The Standard that discusses the leap in crime. Recorded crimes per person leapt 2.8 percent in the June year as unemployment climbed from 4 percent to 6 percent. Obviously, it is not a coincidence. As Mr Ryall pointed out before, crime is a symptom of a society in distress. It shows that there is a crisis, and that is something the National Government has to take full responsibility for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOn a number of occasions Government members have said that the previous Labour Government did nothing with regard to crime, and they have created the perception with the public that crime increased under Labour. I refer to a press release from the University of Auckland\u2014not from the Labour caucus, but from the University of Auckland. It is dated 26 February 2008, and it states: \u201CContrary to popular perception, according to a recent study, the incidence of crime in New Zealand has steadily decreased over the last decade, says Julia Tolmie, co-editor of \u2026 Criminal Justice in New Zealand and associate professor of law at the University of Auckland. What has changed is that the amount of people who are being prosecuted and the sentences that they are getting have both increased.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENow, that happened under a Labour Government. The prosecutions and sentences increased but the crime decreased. In other words, the numbers we are locking up for committing crimes have rapidly increased in recent years, even though crime is not growing. The perception that crime climbed under a Labour Government was put out by National members, and it was incredibly irresponsible. Now they are in a situation where they are in charge, they are experiencing a crisis, they know they cannot house the number of prisoners who will be coming through the prisons, and they are looking to privatise. But even with the benefits they perceive from that around rehabilitation and reintegration, they know they will have an overcrowding problem in our prisons. Therefore, they have to push through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the main provisions of this bill. Clause 4 inserts a new subsection that ensures that if a court cell block has been declared by notice in the Gazette to be a part of a corrections prison, then section 9 of the Resource Management Act 1991 does not prevent that cell block being used to detain prisoners. Clause 5 makes a consequential amendment to the Resource Management Act to signal that section 9 of that Act does not apply to the detention of prisoners in a court cell block that is declared by notice in the Gazette to be part of a corrections prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs I said, Labour members support this bill, but the issue we are discussing is the irony of this measure\u2014and I am not allowed to use the word, which Mr Mallard pointed out, that starts with \u201Ch\u201D. But that is the word we are discussing here, and that is the issue we are discussing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to go back to the bill that was discussed previously tonight, and I discuss it in correlation with this one. That bill was the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, which is known to most people as the \u201CPrivatisation of Prisons Bill\u201D. I go back to what we discussed about the Government\u2019s argument that, for some reason or another, private prisons would be better, safer, and cheaper despite the fact that the vast majority of the submissions showed us that that would not be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn recent months we have experienced a major issue with regard to a shortage of court security officers, and we have also experienced some major upheaval with our justice employees with regard to the working conditions they are being forced to work under, under this National Government. Here we are, putting through this legislation, and knowing that a higher number than usual of prisoners will be kept in our court cells. But do we really have the capacity in terms of staff to ensure that the staff remain safe? Are security measures in place to ensure that the public is also safe? Do the working conditions for the security staff ensure that they will not be on strike every 5 minutes because they are fighting with the Government over what they should be entitled to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI refer to a Manukau Courier article that was put out on 16 April this year\u2014that is, under this Government. It states: \u201CJudges are publicly backing a third budget bid by the Justice Ministry to increase the number of court security officers nationwide. Security staff at the court wear stab-proof vests because of the number of knives they seize from people entering court, says the Public Service Association, the union for state sector workers \u2026 PSA national secretary Richard Wagstaff says there aren\u2019t enough officers to cover the three courts at all times \u2026 That shortage is \u2018mirrored at courts across the country and threatens the safety of the public\u2019, Mr Wagstaff says.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis is an issue that the National Government will have to deal with as it brings this legislation through. It is no good saying that prisoners who cannot be accommodated in our prisons can be housed in court cells if it does not have in place the security measures to ensure that not only the staff who are working there but also the public are safe. It is a very real issue that I really thought I needed to bring to the attention of this Government. The other issue I touched on before was with regard to the pay disputes that have been happening across the justice sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002296c4042a11504dbfa81436fc05776c67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c4042a11504dbfa81436fc05776c67\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will be opposing the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292dfac64b5da45819be0f91ae9e0b341\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a surprise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a049b3014ba4e05a3cbe578b2f16b62\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Garrett that I like to be predictable. This bill allows the Department of Corrections to jail prisoners in court cells. Currently, this can be done by providing notices in the Gazette, but this would usually require approval under the Resource Management Act. This bill establishes an exception, so the Resource Management Act does not cover the housing of prisoners in court cells. We know that court cells are not designed or suitable for the long-term housing of prisoners. It is flagged in the regulatory impact statement to this bill that the completely inadequate nature of these facilities means that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act is potentially contravened, as indeed could some relevant international conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ELast night there was mention of innovation and vision in changes to corrections more generally, and specifically in the terms of the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill that was discussed last night. The vision that underpins this current bill seems to be that we will continue to imprison people in large numbers, we will not make any attempt to reduce the number of prisoners, and we will simply use whatever expedient measure we can to put people away, to keep them out of the public view, and to make no effort to rehabilitate them or to reduce or deal with the underlying causes of crime. We have heard of shipping containers being used as cells, and now we have court cells. I can only surmise as to the opinion of the police force when discovering that their holding cells, which are there for a very real and proper purpose, are now to be used to manage the lack of other adequate facilities for maintaining prisoner security and, indeed, public safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe know that the prison system is under extraordinary pressure and again I refer to the presentation yesterday to the Law and Order Committee from the head of the Department of Corrections, who indicated quite clearly and frankly that the department is under extraordinary stress and is very close to breaking point. Double-bunking is seen as one mechanism for reducing or managing the pressure on prisons, but we know from prison officers that it puts them in an extremely vulnerable, very dangerous, and potentially very violent situation, which will be dangerous both for them and for inmates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe option of last resort is this one that seems to have been chosen\u2014the idea of using court cells to accommodate the overflow. It has been used in the past, as I said, for acute accommodation shortages in the very short term. But this bill would embed and normalise the practice of putting prisoners into court cells, which is completely inadequate and is not acceptable in a modern, allegedly developed society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe objective of the policy, as stated in the regulatory impact statement, is to enable the Department of Corrections to continue to manage the prison population within the available resource and in a manner that is safe, secure, humane, and effective. We argue that this bill fails those tests. It will not enhance safety. Court cells are not secure, in the sense that they are not designed for the long-term custody of prisoners. It certainly is not humane to put people in a situation where there are no facilities for adequate exercise or for access from visitors or, indeed, for proper legal representation, and we do not believe it would be effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill, in part, is intended to circumvent the requirements of section 9 of the Resource Management Act. The disadvantage of the proposal is that it prevents, or would prevent, neighbouring residents and other affected parties from challenging the overnight accommodation of prisoners in court cells. An understatement in the regulatory impact statement suggests that the legislation could be controversial. To say the least, it will most certainly be controversial; the Resource Management Act is a document that has already been under attack this year and we expect there will be further attacks next year. Specifically, the Greens defend the Resource Management Act on the grounds that it is our primary source of environmental protection and we absolutely will continue to defend the principle of public participation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill endeavours to circumvent the opportunity for members of the public to participate effectively through the sections and provisions of the bill. Granting an exemption from the Resource Management Act requirements also sets a very unhealthy precedent that could be taken up by others who see that there may be advantage in a Government agency seeking to carry out urgent building work, for example, or other activities with an environmental or social impact. The bill could be seen as a precedent to pursue similar exemptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe comment has been made that using court cells for overflow might carry a risk of litigation. The prisoners housed in these cells could claim that their treatment does not comply with the provisions of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Indeed, one can readily imagine situations where prisoners would be quite right in that assertion, in that their rights would, in fact, be contravened. It is acknowledged that the use of court cells for overflow prisoners is not a new policy. Court cells have been used in the past, and the department was able to meet its obligations under domestic and international law. However that was always in the sense of exceptional circumstance\u2014a temporary, one-off, seldom repeated situation. As I said, this bill would seek to normalise the use of court cells as overflow with all of the accompanying indications that people will continue to offend, we will continue to provide inadequate treatment, rehabilitation services, or even proper and decent accommodation, and therefore we will use this stopgap measure. Except rather than have it as a stopgap measure, it will become a core part of our corrections system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe need to put our efforts\u2014significant efforts and, indeed, significant resources\u2014into reducing our prison population. We need non-custodial intervention for minor non-violent offending, instead of the default position of throwing young people into the schools of crime that our prisons are. We need a much greater focus on early intervention, rehabilitation, and adult and community education. Such a large number of our prison population have literacy and numeracy problems, and community-based education is a very powerful mechanism for remedying that very real problem. It is very unfortunate that this Government has chosen to reduce adult and community education funding at a time when it is of critical importance and could make a major, albeit indirect, contribution to reducing our prison population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere is a need to address the causes of crime such as entrenched poverty, which is becoming endemic in this country despite it being a wealthy\u2014or at least potentially a wealthy\u2014country. The evidence this week that something like one in five children in our country is effectively living in poverty is simply intolerable. The children of those homes, the children of those families, will almost inevitably become a high risk in their time, and that is virtually guaranteeing another generation of offending. I have mentioned in previous speeches the ever-widening income gap in New Zealand. We will have more and more people with very little to lose, and a few with far too much to lose. Again this is not a mechanism for social harmony or well-being. It will increase the risk of offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EGiven that this bill was not available to us until quite recently, these are only very preliminary comments, but I can assure the House that we will continue to oppose this bill throughout its passage. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u00227d9b01ecac4d41479432801b039cac4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d9b01ecac4d41479432801b039cac4b\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is no surprise that the Greens are opposing the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill just as they have opposed every single law and order bill that has been brought before the House. Comrade David Clendon has learnt very fast to toe the party line along with the rest. I say to Mr Clendon that I do not know what the reality is on Planet Gaia, but people do not actually go to jail in this country for minor offending. He should go and look. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EOne of the most interesting parts of the debate was what Mr Mallard said. I have heard the suggestion of putting prisoners on an island many times, but I have never ever heard it from the Labour Opposition. So I was very intrigued to hear that Mr Mallard thought that one solution would be tents on Stewart Island as a temporary measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad994b46a71d49778c172970ce0101cd\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What about Hawaii? What about Honolulu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32bee267a8a4f52bb2f3cad7b0b9bff\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: As Mr Cosgrove is aware, I have actually seen tent jails over in Arizona, and they seem to work fairly well. I welcome Mr Mallard\u2019s openness of thinking and his willingness to consider what has, in the past, been dismissed as total red-neckery. I congratulate Mr Mallard for that breadth, that openness, and that willingness to consider innovative solutions to problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003ENo one will argue, and I certainly will not, that long-term or even regular incarceration in court cells is a good idea. Of course it is not. But everyone over on the other side of the House has seemingly forgotten that\u2014if I recall correctly, not so long ago\u2014prisoners were held in prison vans outside police stations and courts because there was nowhere else to hold them. I would be very surprised to hear anyone argue, even on Planet Gaia, that incarceration in prison vans is a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThis is a sensible measure. It will not normalise the use of court cells. I say to Mr Clendon that the sky will not fall. We will not have every court cell in the country full of prisoners. But in emergency situations it is sensible and, indeed, humane that prisoners be held in court cells with running water rather than in a van outside. We will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00225d626cb19418416f8062ac6623b128a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d626cb19418416f8062ac6623b128a8\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Assistant Speaker because my electorate, Taranaki - King Country, has a very long title. I am proud of the fact that the Assistant Speaker has been able to pronounce it correctly and say it from beginning to end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI rise in support of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill and there is a very good reason for that. I was reminded of it by the Hon Trevor Mallard, who, like my colleague David Garrett who has just resumed his seat, asked why we are doing this. The Hon Tony Ryall, as the Hon Trevor Mallard pointed out to us, highlighted this concern in 2005. We had a further 3\u00BD years of Labour from the time that that point was made, and nothing was done. The prison population continued to grow and no new prisons were built. I do not think anybody in the House will argue that it is an ideal situation to use police cells, court cells, or any other cells as prison accommodation on a long-term basis, but this is an emergency situation, there are more prisoners than there are cells, and there are empty cells in these facilities. That is the reason behind the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EMany have spoken about what the bill does. It amends a number of Acts, including the Resource Management Act. It allows for this to take place, without having to go through the normal process, once the legislation has been gazetted. As far as National is concerned, this is a short-term fix and help is on its way. Members can be assured of that. It is a very good move in the short-term and that is why we are supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022db36d85ce4ba46a087e4b4c639970fae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db36d85ce4ba46a087e4b4c639970fae\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E That was an astounding speech from Shane Ardern. I generally have a bit of praise for Shane because he is quite a respected member of Parliament around here, but I put that speech down to a sort of temporary amnesia. That member knows that in the life of the previous Labour Government we built four new prisons, despite the current Minister of Police\u2014and now Mr Ardern has caught the same bug\u2014going around telling everybody that nothing was done in terms of correctional facilities. Mr Ardern needs to recast history and know that we built four new prisons. He nods, and he knows that is true and he is probably going to take a point of order and correct his own Hansard because he knows it is a load of hooey. Milton prison was one; Spring Hill Corrections Facility was another. I must say that the interesting thing about this debate is those members on the opposite side of the Chamber getting up and saying that nothing was done under Labour, and forgetting there were four brand-new prisons built under that Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThey also have a bout of amnesia in terms of what they said before the election. Their own National Party policy stated that if National were to implement all their election promises on corrections, then the prison population would double. We have the document here, as does every other New Zealander who received it in the letterbox. Firstly, it says that the Labour Government was not locking enough people up\u2014and National members said it repeatedly, we have the quotes here and I am sure Mr Ardern would agree because there was one from him\u2014that Labour was soft on crime and the prisons were bursting. Now that those members are in Government, they say: \u201COh, shock, horror!\u201D. The Minister of Corrections lowers the tone of her voice when speaking on the radio and becomes very soft and very benign, almost wanting to be beatified, and says: \u201CIsn\u2019t it terrible\u201D, as she wrings her hands, \u201Cthat we have so many people in prison.\u201D But not a year ago, almost to the day, it was Judith Collins and her ilk who stood on the other side of the Chamber and said that Labour was not locking up enough criminals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe second point I make as I return to the policy of the National Party before the election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261887623ab6642e690a77e5697889c06\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: What about the birthday cake in the caucus room? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225567bf175b984cd59149a41cf381c9a3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I think that member might be about to blow\u2014is that National put out a pamphlet that said if all its policies were implemented, the prison population would double. That is what it said, but now it recasts history and the Minister of Corrections says that she did not know this was going to happen. Yet her own party\u2019s policy before the election said that if all the National Party\u2019s law and order commitments were fulfilled, it would double the prison population. So that is the \u201Cl\u201D word; it is porky No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe third point I make is that the Minister forgets she had a briefing as the incoming new Minister that gave her, a 1 year ago almost to the day, the prison forecast. I recall when I was in Cabinet\u2014and I am sure that Mr Assistant Speaker Barker will recall it as he was there as well\u2014every Monday morning we had a document that showed the prison forecast and the actual numbers. Every time something happened in the community that was outrageous, the National Opposition members stood up and said Labour was not locking up enough criminals. It is a bit like Nick Smith saying that New Zealand must show leadership over the emissions trading system when a year ago he said we should not show leadership at all, because he was in Opposition. I say to those members: \u201CYou can\u2019t fudge history.\u201D That is the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe will support the bill because there is a requirement for flexibility. Court cells were used from time to time under the last Government, and we have to put those people somewhere. I accept that, but members of the National Government get up and say \u201CShock, horror! The prison figures are outrageous and it is an outrage that New Zealand has the second-largest incarceration rate, per head of population, in the world.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228791c79ed86145d9833370cc712e56ae\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: No, we don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022514d6a04b0234d63a25be87c8966baee\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what they said, except the problem with that view is that not 12 months ago, during a general election, and years before that, those members accused the last Government of not locking up enough people. I say to members opposite that they cannot have it both ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other observation I would make is that I believe we are now perhaps 7 or 8\u2014depending on whether the Leader of the House stuffs it up again\u2014parliamentary days away from the end of the sitting year. The Minister of Corrections has had her forecast for a year, and there has been no plan to address this issue. Here we stand in urgency, ramming another bill through. Most members never saw it until it was tabled because of the Minister\u2019s own disorganisation. She has bleated about this issue for nigh on 12 months, but she has presented no formal strategy or plan. She has a commitment in her election policy to build a new prison, yet no money was allocated in the Budget, no spade went into the ground, and no foundation was laid\u2014nothing. We have no plan from the Government on how to address the prison muster in a formal, logical, and logistical sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EYet we have heard: \u201CLet\u2019s fire some bunks in; to hell with the security arrangements for prison officers; and to hell with the potential for prison officers getting done over, because of the stress rising in the prisons.\u201D I am concerned about those prison officers. We have had the great container campaign: bang a few containers\u2014made in China or wherever\u2014in the odd prison and bodgie a strategy together. Now we have court cells being used. As I say, we do not oppose that, but we do feel a duty to point out the obvious to members opposite because when they were in Opposition they railed against the use of police cells and court cells. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe have already heard from Trevor Mallard quoting Simon Power who, in Opposition, said that it was outrageous that we were doing that and that all hell was breaking loose in the prisons because court cells were being used. Tony Ryall, as Opposition spokesperson on corrections, also railed against that practice, yet 12 months into the ether we see members opposite standing up, one after another, led by the nose, reading out National research unit notes and proclaiming that this is a great strategy. Well, as we move through this debate, I would like to know about the logistical arrangements and what provision has been made\u2014for I talked to a senior prison staffer yesterday\u2014for prison officers within our court buildings. Court buildings are used at particular times, as we know, and court cells are required to be used by the judiciary for the administration of alleged criminals from time to time each day. I ask where the security arrangements are, where the extra staff are, and where the basic logistical requirements for the prison officers who have to guard these prisons are\u2014that is, offices if they need them and beds if they need them, or do they share a cell in the court with the prisoner? None of those issues have been addressed, and I would like to know where the budget and where the resources are coming from in respect of that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI point out to members opposite their scattergun approach to muster management, after 12 months in Government. We hear the groans, on cue\u2014if Mr Quinn is awake\u2014that the Labour Government had 9 years to do it. That is dead right, and we built four prisons. But we were criticised by the then National Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86c857464fe4679bf24d4f2a8d49478\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: And crime dropped under us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a2af335c6045c28765df8c72bcd132\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Crime did drop under us, but we still put in place formal prison systems. We built four prisons. Those folk in their manifesto said they were going to build a prison or a number of them. We have heard nothing, seen nothing, and nothing has been done in that respect. They have been in office for 12 months. I would have thought that at least the concrete would go down, or that the odd bit of iron or steel would go in as the foundations were raised and the construction begun 12 months ago. But there was nothing in the Budget and no mention of it from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EYet we have a bit of double-bunking, which I fear. My fear is not for the prisoners in this respect but what will occur to the prison officers if the stress level is ratcheted up in those prisons. OK, prisoners are locked up in the cells, but at some point they have to be unlocked. It will not be members opposite who turn the key and open the door and get punched in the face by the prisoner. It will not be those members, as they are closeted behind the glass upstairs; it will be our prison service folk. It will be no one in this Chamber who gets done over. Then we have the scattergun approach in the use of containers\u2014drop a few out of the sky here, a few there. But we cannot get the cost for those. There are three or four costs for those but no one can tell us what it will cost or how long they will last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI predict that after the Government has done the containerisation of prisoners and has built\u2014if it does\u2014a new prison, the taxpayer will be up for far more than had the Government done the job properly and fulfilled National\u2019s election promise. Then, at the eleventh hour, we have this logical move, I accept, to utilise court cells, and no one opposes that on our side. But with 8 days to go in the parliamentary year, that is the sort of forethought and foresight exhibited. That is the planning and logistical strategising exhibited by this Minister of Corrections. \u201CLast-minute Louis\u201D, with 8 days to go, says: \u201CLet\u2019s do this\u201D, when I presume that Cabinet, or at least her office, gets the prison forecast every week, if not every couple of days, as we did when we were Ministers. This is forecast to go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would also like to know whether the claims made by the Department of Corrections are true that there are, indeed, around 100 to 150 beds available in our prisons. We support this bill, but we believe that those members should be held to account for their comments last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022947137ba5a964606b535278779e87b27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022947137ba5a964606b535278779e87b27\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to take a call and speak on this bill, the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. National campaigned on improving safety in our communities, and we are addressing this issue with a raft of measures. This bill is part of keeping that pledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand prison population has steadily increased over the last 10 years. Why is this? One of the drivers was an increase of over 40 percent in the number of violent offenders. I will say that again. There was an increase of over 40 percent in the number of violent offenders over the last 10 years, and, of course, a concomitant higher proportion of convicted offenders sentenced to imprisonment. Equally, there has been a disproportionately large growth in the remand prison population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis Government is trying to lift New Zealand\u2019s performance across all sectors. To do this, we are open-minded and we welcome innovation and fresh thinking. We have said sayonara to the dogma-driven policies of the late, unlamented Labour administration. Those policies led to a 40 percent increase in violent crime and to inadequate accommodation to house the convicted offenders. We have heard from the Hon Clayton Cosgrove about the fact that Labour attempted to address the problem. We accept that, but Labour failed. It became a terminally tired administration that deteriorated to become little more than a loquacious lobby for lassitude, languor, and inaction. This bill is necessary as a result of that legacy of supervised neglect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe National-led Government has inherited a rising prison muster and a concomitant imminent shortfall in accommodation, owing to inadequate funding by the Labour Government. This bill is necessary to ensure we can provide safe, temporary accommodation for offenders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022732192611bee44f282218de68ae461da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022732192611bee44f282218de68ae461da\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That last contribution to this debate on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill added absolutely nothing. The member Dr Cam Calder displayed his ignorance about the causes of crime. The member displayed his ignorance about how little his own Government is achieving in this important area. The member simply believes in some Crosby/Textor - type information. The member knows nothing. He could not give us one example of policies of the last 9 years that had actually caused crime to rise\u2014not one. There was a lot of rhetoric but no substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ELabour will support this bill, because it provides a response at this particular time to a difficulty. When no options are available, then cell facilities at courts ought to be used, and this is what this bill allows. That is a reasonable thing to do. At the present time court cells can be used only during the day, but they ought to be utilised when there is urgency in terms of demand. This bill amends the Corrections Act 2004 to allow for prisoners to be accommodated in court cells for up to 4 days. That is a reasonable thing to do. Because court cells cannot be used in this way under the Resource Management Act, an amendment also has to be made in the bill to exempt the use of court cells in this way from section 9 of that Act. The Labour Opposition will support that, because overcrowding is a potential problem in the next period. This bill is a way to resolve it, and it is the responsible thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EBut the bill does point to some real difficulties that the Government has with regard to provisioning its law and order policies, which, presumably, are policies that National designed several years before the last election campaign. National members had all the figures available to them, and now that they have been in Government for a year, all they have managed to call on is the punitive approach that sections of our community demand and that they have tried to make political capital from. They promised to be tough on crime by locking up more people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is important to go back to the website of the Department of Corrections to really see the things that the department is telling us it has known about for some time. Clearly, the prison system is under pressure, and clearly the department would have been telling the Government that for some time. The Government also knows that the future of the policy of double-bunking is uncertain. There are difficulties with the processes, as we have seen in the Employment Court. So the Government does know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220365279f9729471aadfe5171561130ef\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976c1be3bac544bfb6afa3d5bcce6d9c\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: It is a nonsense, I agree. So the Government does know\u2014[Interruption] it is a nonsense, I agree\u2014there will be insufficient accommodation from 2010 onwards. The Department of Corrections is telling us about its problems via its website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAlthough the Government talks about this measure being a temporary provision, the member from the Greens raised an important point. The Government\u2019s own website says it is thinking about this facility being made available on an ongoing basis. It is not as though the issue of prison numbers will just go away; it will be there for some time. This measure will be used for some time, and I would like to hear from the Minister as to how she intends to resolve that. For how long does the Minster intend to use this provision? What are the plans for ensuring that it will not be necessary in the future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThere is some good news, and I commend the Department of Corrections for this. It has actually thought matters through, and it does say\u2014both in notes that we have and on its website\u2014that it will do some more work to make sure there is a good understanding of how the use of court cells overnight will work, and to make sure that provisions are made so that prisoners are treated in a humane and effective manner and their rights are protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Department of Corrections\u2019 website also raises\u2014and we have not talked about this a great deal\u2014the fact that there will be difficulties with regard to getting this type of exemption from the Resource Management Act. We should think about that for a moment. If the cells are in neighbourhoods, the people who live in the area will now have no opportunity at all to object to this measure. I am not saying everybody should object, but the facility to object has been taken away. The department\u2019s website also says there are some risks of litigation from the people who are being held in this type of facility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Government has promised to look at a whole range of other facilities for prisoners. It does know that we cannot keep on putting more people in prisons. We have an awful performance rate in this area; it is one of the worst rates in the world, after the US.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c974825137045c88b7361a98f94f1c5\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been pretty appalling over 9 years\u2014you\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222faa6302c53a4136a7342e14e7d02ac6\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to that. The member talks about the last 9 years. Members sit there talking about the last 9 years, but that is intellectual dishonesty. When will the Government really address the drivers of crime? Government members have had the meetings and have had the information put before them, but we have seen nothing. We would like Government members to get up and tell us what their crime prevention strategies are. When should we expect to see them, or is it that Government members have found a sore in our society\u2014the view of those who want to be punitive? Is it the case that the Government has utilised that and that it intends to utilise this issue in that particular way? If the Government was really sincere about addressing the drivers of crime and about getting into early intervention, we would have seen that by now. The Government is a third of the way through its term, and we have not seen any really significant proposals. There is the opportunity to change the performance of this country in this particular area, but we have not seen anything. We would like to hear from members opposite about when we can expect to see their proposals. They have had meetings and there has been plenty of input. Or is the issue becoming too hard? Does the Government intend to keep the proposals for the last 6 months of its term and to take them up from there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EPerhaps the biggest irony\u2014and I liken this to a form of intellectual dishonesty\u2014is the fact that we are here, pushing this bill through under urgency and agreeing to these provisions, when National members, day after day, pilloried this very provision when they were in Opposition. Previous speakers have already referred to that. Where is the intellectual honesty of the members opposite, who ought to say, yes, they were wrong to raise this issue in the kind of way that they did. They ought to say they now realise the difficulties and that this provision is needed to overcome them. Some acknowledgment of what Ministers from the previous Labour Government were trying to do in order to use the cell facilities at courts during times of crisis would not be unreasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt would be useful to gain that kind of acknowledgment from members on the Government side of the House, because there is a pattern here: they stand up, use their Crosby/Textor lines\u2014the same thing, time and time again\u2014and simply say nothing has been done in the last 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b42028c78934b59843b77037f8aad33\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of damage has been done in the last 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6398bc2f9749a9a4bfe24a5a624710\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Rotorua repeated that earlier. Mr Calder is also making some noises over there. Mr Calder has shown his ignorance of this field already by not even knowing what the research says, and by not being able to give us any example of what he was talking about. The Minister for Social Development and Employment goes on day after day, in an intellectually dishonest manner, saying Labour did nothing for 9 years, but we should look at what the National Government is doing. I advise that Minister to go and talk to her own advisers in the Ministry of Social Development. They will tell her chapter and verse about the actions that were taken to address our society\u2019s social issues, in a manner that she would be impressed by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EPerhaps one day the National members will come to the House and acknowledge what they are having, by default, to acknowledge. They criticised this very provision, yet they are slipping it in before the Christmas break, under urgency, to enable court cells to be used. We are ready to support that, but I look forward to seeing intellectual honesty on the part of members on the other side of the House, so that we can actually work on that basis in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c88a23051b744481840ea5d602b85013\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c88a23051b744481840ea5d602b85013\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to reflect just momentarily on a comment made in an earlier speech by the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. In his speech, and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity, for we all know him to be an honourable man, he spoke in tender terms\u2014one could only say in tender terms and in fond terms\u2014of the Hon Judith Collins. He spoke of her soft dulcet tones on the radio, her femininity, and her compassionate qualities. I agree with all the things he said except\u2014[Interruption]\u2014I am sorry? No, he spoke eloquently. He always speaks eloquently, but it was nice to hear him speak in such a favourable manner of the Minister. Everybody recognises those qualities in her, but he gave them voice this morning. He also said that he thought she should experience beatification. I have just a small point of correction: I think he meant to say canonisation, that is, to the level of sainthood. I would have thought that he would understand these things, not that he is striving for the same achievement himself. I thank him on behalf of the Minister for the kind compliments that he made. Indeed, I think he has a sneaking respect for the Minister; it was reflected, I thought, on Morning Report this morning when I heard them speaking together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is gratifying to know that Labour is in fact supporting the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022870e5965b1144bb7945f59fc887ea9f9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: This is a speech of substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53febab87cd4849aee84fd5e6b50b8a\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is, yes; we can put a little bit of substance into it. Here is a lovely quote from Oscar Wilde:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI never saw a man\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWho looked with such a wistful eye \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EUpon that little tent of blue \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWhich prisoners call the sky,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot this morning about the mechanics, the economies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d959d5b8ad4018b0fc3282a702e5f5\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: That was moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bd29bc28c5468c98f57240d88a0a39\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: It was. Well, it is! I used to visit a young Kiwi prisoner in New Caledonia. He was there for some years. I visited him regularly. I have talked to chaplains. I have talked to people who have spent a long time in prison. It ain\u2019t a nice place. Defence lawyers tell me to never let anyone get away with the idea that people like going to prison. They said people never, ever want to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d64c63c1f154a32b8ee0d35e0ac2764\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: For the last 9 years you\u2019ve been saying what luxury palaces they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221660f3e6540c49c8af70e09f94759aab\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, they can be, and that can happen. That does not mean to say people like being there. The worst aspect of facing prison, as those who have had that experience tell me, is the uncertainty. Over the 9 awful years of the last Labour Government, all of those vulnerable people in the corrections system have had a rotten time. It has been a dreadful period, and the Opposition knows it. I will not start to list the dreadful series of events that occurred in corrections during the period of governance of the previous Labour Government. Thank goodness for National, thank goodness for Minister Collins, and thank goodness for the common sense that is now being applied to the use of court cells. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6d47be0fb374d2b8eca27a622de6349\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df1f250c10434a738c937e060e13f049\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6845f5057a9452da397d4f12b93020c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6845f5057a9452da397d4f12b93020c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Corrections: I move, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I begin by thanking the various officials who have worked on this issue and on the bill that is now before the House. They have provided valuable support in ensuring that the Government\u2019s priorities of ensuring public safety and providing value for money are reflected in the approach that is being taken. Those priorities are reflected also in the commitment the Government has shown to improving the provision of drug and alcohol treatment in prisons, and to improving the provision of education in prisons, particularly in literacy and numeracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn the long term, those measures\u2014coupled with the various other initiatives in the justice sector being promoted, particularly, by the Minister of Justice\u2014will reduce the growth of the prison population. Reducing the rate of growth of the prison population is the Government\u2019s preferred long-term approach to the corrections portfolio. However, in the short term, measures to increase capacity in the prison system and the flexibility of the prison system, such as those in the bill currently before the House, are necessary to ensure that public safety is preserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis bill allows the use of court cells that have been gazetted as parts of corrections prisons, notwithstanding the provisions of local district plans. It addresses an anomaly that was identified by the previous Government, and provides increased flexibility in managing the increasing prison population. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9adeb6ccb3b41d99ae3cd58b651afe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9adeb6ccb3b41d99ae3cd58b651afe3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a couple of observations about the nature of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. As I have said, Labour will support it. I thank the acting Minister for what has been the only semblance of a speech of substance and logic to come out of the Government thus far in the process. We had a rendition from somebody akin to a cross between Uncle Fester and Captain Mainwaring in the form of Mr Auchinvole talking about all manner of things, but he did not provide any justification, substance, or even any logic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb89ac75c5c4145a6cb8ce63a89a6e2\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Or any meaning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c64c37fd7a48e9b589fda35c240df6\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or any meaning to support his own case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will turn to the regulatory impact statement. I have taken some advice, having read the very brief six or seven lines that it appears to be. In that regulatory impact statement, there is no regulatory impact statement. There is a reference to a website, which is a very long-winded website; in fact it takes up 3\u00BD, nearly 4, lines. I am advised that that is quite unusual. Normally in a piece of legislation, even a short piece of legislation, one would expect a summary of the regulatory impact statement. One would expect some sort of summary of the facts around the regulatory impact statement. This bill is printed on one A3 piece of paper. I know we are trying to conserve trees in this environment, but there is a little bit of space at the bottom, actually, where I would have thought the Government could have put some words in. When one goes to the website, one sees an exhaustive three or four pages of regulatory impact statement hidden away. One has to ask why that is the case. I am advised that not 24 hours ago the URL link had not been inserted into the bill. That is how rushed this process has been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI raise that issue because it is more evidence that this Minister does not have a plan or a logical strategy to deal with the prison muster numbers. As I said in the first reading, she has had the reports for 12 months. Prior to the election her party said that if it implemented all its law and order policies it would double the then prison muster\u2014double it. So even before the election\u2014over 12 months ago\u2014this Minister and her party were planning for a doubling of the prison population, yet there was no plan as to where to house them. There was\u2014and still is, I believe\u2014a commitment to build at least one new prison, though we have heard and seen nothing about it. This just provides further evidence, with 7 or 8 parliamentary days to go, of how rushed and unplanned, with a lack of management, a lack of foresight and thinking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e72540b684a4c318971aae62c159e1a\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: A shambles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9b261cdc2a44e5b1437756abd2e4ee\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a shambles, my colleague says, a bit like the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4c58253fe7420cb711e0ad94cbf292\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re voting for it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac5769f6223b471780b9ac5502acce6b\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are voting for it to get the Government out of a hole. It could have put up these proposals 12 months ago, put in place a prison muster plan and a prison build plan\u2014a proper prison\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221957793859d940f49c682827242dabb6\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Integrated strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273f6314986d4aa59ac4b2d8670177e5\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, you could have done that yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265020feb74f848eca26229ebe106c3c0\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague is right. That is a big word for Mr Calder. He says we could have done that ourselves. Well, I tell Mr Calder that the problem is that we did. We built four prisons. We were criticised by Mr Calder, who I think was doorknocking for Judith Collins or something way back then. We were criticised by Judith Collins because Mr Calder\u2019s party said we were not locking enough people up. Does he care to rebut that? No, he will not rebut it, because it is a fact. That is what he said as he doorknocked for Judith Collins: we were not locking enough people up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b7e49bfc1448c6bb5e7a2b4d26a84e\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I submit that the honourable member has no knowledge of what I said when I was doorknocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1670a1e01a04b87854e0c843975231a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; that is interrupting a debate. It is unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f637f15b38db4622bc46a44bd3b31787\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: That is OK, Mr Deputy Speaker. It proves what a plonker he is, so it is OK. What his party said before the election and what it says today are two different things. I love the Toastmasters. I have helped Toastmasters a number of times to set up little branches around my electorate. It is a fantastic organisation. I mean no denigration by what I am about to say, but I have to say to Mr Calder that this ain\u2019t stage 101; this is a debate of substance about a critical issue. Going through the dictionary late at night, as Mr Calder did, looking for words that start with the same letter and stringing them together does not actually add to the substance of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will raise a couple of questions about the shambles that we have and the lack of planning we have around this. I suspect that the member does not know where the regulatory impact statement is; he might be running away to ask his staff to get on the web and look it up. I am happy to give him a copy of the regulatory impact statement, because he probably does not know what it means and he probably does not know where to find it, but it is on the web. In that statement it says: \u201CCabinet has agreed that the maximum period of detention in court cells would be four days (96 hours).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs I said, I was talking with a senior person in corrections. I will not name the person, because Judith Collins will bring a machete down on that person if I do. The issues raised are ones of logistics for prison staff, with regard to 4 evenings, 4 days, and 96 hours. I would like to know from the Government\u2014and hopefully we will get to it in the Committee stage\u2014what budget has been put aside for logistics of prison officers. How will they be fed through the court system, for instance? How will prisoners themselves be administered to? What will the accommodations be like for prison officers if they require administrative support while they are there for their shift? What will happen in terms of the day to day interaction between court processes, court staff, and prisoners who are housed for 96 hours? I think those are quite important and germane issues to this debate because, of course, these provisions will effectively take away the right of people who may be living in that area to object. I am sure that they would like some assurance from the Minister as to just how those day-to-day logistical matters will be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is not a political point; it is a fair point that communities will want to know. I think it is also a fair point in relation to the security staff\u2014that is, the prison officers who will be charged with dealing with these prisoners and managing them day to day, often in what can be described as very confined circumstances where they do not have the logistical support they would have had if this Government decided to start building a new prison as it promised to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo there are some issues in here. As I say, I find it very strange\u2014in fact, I am told it is unheard of\u2014that the regulatory impact statement is not contained within the bill, but is ferreted away and buried on a website. The URL was not even inserted in the draft that I have of the bill, which I received, somewhat prematurely, before it came before the House. I just wonder why. Is there any devil in the detail? Of course, when one finds the paper, one sees that it notes and acknowledges that there are a number of risks in respect of use of prison cells. So I just raise those issues as a matter of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f424682a6bf6452ebf57234357a47d51\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364f3cb671354747a172aa8568515613\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Talking of premature! I just raise those issues as a matter of course, and I seek some assurance from the Minister. She or Mr Finlayson may be able to get some advice from the staff and explain to us without breaching security how in metropolitan areas, without the logistical support of a prison itself, these individuals will be managed day to day, and what protections are in place for the staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI hope as we progress through the second reading that we might actually get a speech or two of substance from the opposite side of the House. I would be very interested in some of them; I think Mrs Goudie is in the starting blocks ready to go. I wonder whether Mrs Goudie will address some of the points I have made, like what she said before the election, instead of getting up and saying that the Government of the day did nothing. No, we built four prisons. Those members say that the Government of the day did not lock enough people up\u2014well, we did, and now they say there are too many in there. I wonder whether they will address what the plan is going forward, and why this bill, which is pretty simple and has the support of most of the House, is brought to us 7 or 8 parliamentary sitting days before the election, incomplete though it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d66e840f634bbaaf67998e4913cff0\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Before what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cfce2abe2124eb6b9f7cd3040726198\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, before Christmas, I should say. God willing, there would be an election! After we have had the emissions trading scheme and the shonky deal with the M\u0101ori Party and others, I think it would be a cracker to get on the stump and debate some of these issues. I can only live in hope. I hope we actually get some of those answers from the members, especially the member who purports to be the chair of the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022cee02d4c5d0a4565a87e91632d8683ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cee02d4c5d0a4565a87e91632d8683ea\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Is it any wonder that I tried to take a premature call after Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s address? The previous Government never did do anything about the drivers of crime. This legislation is a new initiative from this new National Government, which will make\u2014and is currently making\u2014a difference, just by the fact that we have started that whole process of addressing the drivers of crime. While we are looking at the drivers of crime, we are also making sure that New Zealanders feel safe in their beds and in their homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill is a sensible solution. You know, Opposition members think it is a sensible solution, because they are supporting it, so we have to wonder what on earth they are rabbiting on about in the House. They are raving on in the House when it is quite a simple, straightforward bill, and when they are supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI will cover a couple of matters in regard to the bill. Clause 3 states: \u201CThis Act amends the Corrections Act 2004.\u201D Clause 4 amends section 32 by inserting new subsection (2A), which ensures that if a cell block is declared by notice in the Gazette to be part of a corrections prison, then section 9 of the Resource Management Act will not prevent that cell block being used to detain prisoners. That provision is pretty sensible, and the Opposition must think it is pretty sensible, otherwise it would not be supporting it. So that is great; everybody is in accord.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EClause 5(2) makes a consequential amendment to section 4 of the Resource Management Act, to signal that \u201CSection 9 does not apply to the detention of prisoners in a court cell block that is declared by notice in the Gazette to be part of a corrections prison.\u2019 \u201D. So I can see no reason why there is so much kerfuffle by the Opposition when it is supporting this bill. That kerfuffle is just bombast on its part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00222eb3586d1c4f4358b83bcdbc85c15e37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222eb3586d1c4f4358b83bcdbc85c15e37\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to a few of the claims that have been made by Mr Calder and Sandra Goudie with regards to increases in crime. The perception has been put out there by this National Government that under the Labour Government crime increased. Let us look at the facts. A report from the University of Auckland states that crime decreased under the Labour Government. A New Zealand Herald article in April 2008 stated: \u201CThe New Zealand crime rate remained flat in 2007, while police resolved almost 10,000 more offences than the previous year.\u201D That article stated: \u201CNew Zealand recorded its lowest murder rate for a decade at 45, with 41 resolved before the end of the year.\u201D It also stated\u2014I touch on this because Mr Calder brought it up\u2014that \u201COverall the picture was less rosy\u201D with regards to violent crimes, but \u201CThis is not surprising when we take into account that there has been a huge focus on family violence with publicity and media campaigns designed to reduce tolerance for such offending,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt cannot be held against the Labour Government that we did something with regards to family violence and domestic violence. It cannot be held against the Labour Government that women all of a sudden decided that it was OK to come out and report to the police that they were getting beaten by their husbands. We cannot be accused of doing anything wrong when we did that over the last 9 years. Perhaps violent offences increased in terms of reporting, but it is not due to anything done wrong by the Labour Government; it is because of the work that we put into ensuring that women felt safe coming out and reporting against family violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will touch on just how safe this bill is with regards to our courts. \u201CJust how safe is it in court?\u201D is an article that came out in the Manukau Courier in April 2009. It discussed the fact that \u201CPSA national secretary Richard Wagstaff says there aren\u2019t enough officers to cover the three courts at all times.\u201D He discussed the fact that the shortage is \u201Cmirrored at courts across the country and threatens the safety of the public\u201D. He said: \u201CThey need an extra three security staff to enable them to cover the three courts at all times.\u201D The article goes on: \u201CMr Wagstaff says public demand is increasing yet the government has put a cap on staff, which is \u2018a recipe for disaster, and in the case of our courts and our probation service, threatens the safety of the public\u2019.\u201D This is an issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe support the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill because the Government is in crisis and crime is on the increase. We know that a big part of that increase is due to poverty. Due to the high unemployment rates under this Government, we are seeing an increase in the number of people committing crimes. Prisons do not have the capacity to deal with them. We support this bill, but only because this Government is in crisis. Therefore, there is no other option with regards to the safety of the public. However, that does not mean that this will be smooth sailing for the Government. There are huge issues here with regards to the numbers of security officers in our courts, and also with regards to the unrest that has arisen in recent months amongst the justice staff members about their working conditions. If the Government does not address those things then we will be in serious trouble when this legislation goes through. We will see an increased number of prisoners pushed to the cells in the courts because they cannot be held in our actual prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI pointed out earlier, and I point out again, that last night what we may just as well call the \u201CPrivatisation of Prisons Bill\u201D went through. The National Government was saying that the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill would result in safer, better, and cheaper prisons. How can they be safer and better when anticipation of a huge overflow results in the need for this Government to push this legislation through quickly so that it has cells to house the prisoners because the prisons will not be able to hold them? I cannot see how the private prisons that it says will be the remedy to what it perceives as all its problems will be any sort of remedy when we are seeing more legislation to deal with the overflow. The prisons that the Government is talking about improving will not be able to cope with the sheer numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will go back to the issue of our court staff and our justice staff. There was a New Zealand Herald article. Again, it was not long ago, at all\u2014it was only Tuesday, 17 November 2009. Our court staff were out on strike arguing for better pay. They were pointing out the fact that they would no longer \u201Ccontinue to accept the ministry\u2019s unjust pay system that\u2019s responsible for their underpayment.\u201D, and the fact that they are working in very poor working conditions. It is this Government\u2019s responsibility to ensure that our public servants are taken care of so that chaos does not erupt in places like our courts. It will be our public whose safety is put at risk, and also that of the security officers who are working these courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMy colleague Mr Cosgrove brought up the fact that there was an absence of a regulatory impact statement in the bill that we were handed. He also pointed out that this is highly unusual, given the fact that usually it is in the bill. He was advised that it was unusual for a bill not to have it. We looked it up on the website and got a copy. We thought that perhaps there was something there that the Government was a little bit worried about. When we went through what is reported in the regulatory impact statement we found that a couple of things should be brought to the attention of the public. No one would deny that holding prisoners in court cells is not a new thing; there was a way in which that could be done in the past. Now the Government is going to extreme measures to introduce this legislation because it is in crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the things pointed out in the regulatory impact statement is that \u201CThe preferred option\u201D\u2014this option\u2014\u201Ccarries litigation risks, in that prisoners housed in court cells may claim that their treatment does not comply with provisions of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act or other legislative requirements. It is also possible that New Zealand\u2019s compliance with international conventions could be challenged. In this regard, the Chief Ombudsman has indicated that the Ombudsmen may issue adverse reports under Part 2 of the Crimes of Torture Act 1989 if their concerns are not addressed.\u201D Putting prisoners in court cells was done sparingly under the previous Labour Government; it was not done on a regular basis. We did not feel we needed to legislate for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhen we were in Government\u2014for the past 9 years\u2014we were not in crisis. This Government is in crisis, so it is forced to legislate for it, and we have to support it in that, but this Government will have to face that issue. With the increasing number of prisoners whom they are planning to push into courts cells, there will be a much higher risk that their rights as prisoners and their treatment do not comply with the provisions of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. This is especially so given the fact, as I pointed out before, that there is a shortage of security staff at the moment. There is unrest amongst the justice staff because of poor working conditions imposed by this Government. It needs to be highlighted that there are concerns about this that have been pointed out in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ETo end, I want to say that last night we saw a bill pushed through stating that private prisons will apparently be better, safer, and cheaper, yet here we are today\u2014and this is ironic\u2014pushing through a bill that will legislate to allow for prisoners to be held in court cells because the Government is anticipating an overflow. It is anticipating that its prisons will not be able to hold the sheer numbers. This is an issue. It is ironic. It contradicts what the National Government discussed last night. Mr Mallard discussed the \u201Ch\u201D word before; I will not bring it up. We support this bill because the Government is in crisis, but we have a few concerns that the Government will have to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002254da6c2dade44541b265c8b7c677e08a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254da6c2dade44541b265c8b7c677e08a\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I had not been intending to take a call in this debate. I will be very brief. I will make three points. First, I have never heard such a load of rubbish in my life. Carmel Sepuloni has just said that the Labour Party is voting for the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill because the Government is in crisis. Well, I invite Labour members to vote against the bill. Because the ACT Party supports the bill, it will be passed into law whether or not the Labour Party supports it. The Government does not need Labour\u2019s support. It is welcome to give it. It is a good bill. But I have never heard such a load of rubbish in my life. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4b143e83d294dac976df84e2143d7d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4b143e83d294dac976df84e2143d7d6\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from the comments made by my ACT colleague John Boscawen, I am reminded very much of how awful it is in Opposition when one is voting for something but one is required to give a 10-minute speech putting forward the reasons why it is not a good idea. That is the reason we fight so hard to get into Government; it is so much better to be on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to my colleagues on the other side of the House who have debated the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill so far\u2014the Hon Trevor Mallard and the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, who have come up with all the reasons why this bill is not a good idea, but who are supporting it\u2014that they have missed one point. This Government has now been in power for 1 year. They were in power for 9 years. They talked of the prisons that they opened during the 9 years they were in power, but they forgot to mention that they also closed some prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe question that has not been raised so far, given the importance of this bill because of the overflow from our prisons and the crisis that has been created as a result, is why they closed \u014Chura Prison in the King Country during their time in Government. When we drill into the reasons they gave for doing that, we find that they argued that they could not get prison officers to live out there. Well, in the end, that was true, but why was that? It was because a decision was made 12 to 18 months prior to the closure of that prison to sell off the prison houses. Of course, when prison officers apply for a job they look at the whole package. They have to consider where they would live, how they would get there, and what the salary was. They found they would have to go out to \u014Chura and try to find suitable accommodation for their wives and families, and, of course, it was not available. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy! The selling of prison houses, making them unavailable, was a nationwide decision, and in \u014Chura the one-size-fits-all approach did not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAnd it was a tragedy. When I look back at it, I realise that the kind of people who generally make themselves available as medium-security or low-security prison officers are the kind of people who like a recreational sort of life. They might be hunters, fishers, foresters, or have other, similar hobbies that they do outside of their hours of work, and \u014Chura was perfectly located for that type of person and that type of lifestyle. However, the decision was made, the prison was closed, and now we are here debating a bill under urgency to allow court cells and other temporary facilities to be used to accommodate the overflow of prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would be interested in comments from the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, or from anybody else who wishes to take a call, to explain the merits of that decision. When Tony Ryall was the Opposition police spokesperson he identified a looming problem in terms of the growing prison numbers and a lack of construction of new prison facilities. So after 9 years of Labour we are now debating under urgency the need to allow the temporary accommodation of prisoners in facilities that could arguably be described as unsuitable for long-term corrections activity. The Government is aware of that, and it is moving to look at all options as quickly as possible. I am sure that the National Government will find a solution to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022f89cd06aae244d12bae4ce258daf3950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f89cd06aae244d12bae4ce258daf3950\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Boscawen might not have read the regulatory impact statement, but Carmel Sepuloni was referring to the fact that managing the prison muster is in crisis, hence the necessity to pass legislation to enable this to happen. Therefore, there is nothing disingenuous about that; it is a fact. Why would we not support something when it is a reasonable thing to do and when it is something that we also find necessary to do? What is disingenuous is what members opposite used to do when this matter came up under the Labour Government. They would pillory this very kind of provision. What we do not see is a little bit of humility from them. Maybe they could apologise and say they can see why it was necessary. I know that Mr Ardern has had more experience of being in Opposition than we have. It is something he ought to think about. We do not intend to become as experienced at that as members opposite are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMembers opposite have taken this opportunity to legislate a simple provision under urgency. It would have been easy to get through this without too much complication. Members opposite have taken this as an opportunity to say, time and time again, that in the 9 years of the previous Government it did nothing about violence and crime. I do not know where those members were when day after day, year after year, and term after term, the Labour Government did bring forward many pieces of legislation and significantly resourced the addressing of crime. Mr Calder talked a lot about the increase in violent crime. As I said in my first reading speech, he displays his own ignorance about the figures for violent crime. I want to spend a few minutes educating members opposite about the figures for violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe indeed know that the majority of violent crime shown in those statistics emerged out of domestic violence; we know that to be the case. How did that happen? Did it happen because of 9 years of inactivity by the last Government, or did it happen because year in and year out Ministers and their ministries were working very, very hard to try to understand what some of the drivers were, what needed to be done, and how to bring everybody together and start a programme that in perhaps the next 10 years\u2014because that is how long it would take\u2014would achieve the necessary changes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMr Ardern and Mr Calder might not know about the family violence task force and the work that it did to try to find out what New Zealand society should do about violence. It brought all of the information together. It joined up all the agencies possible. I know, because I led the Families Commission at that time. We were key players, and the member\u2019s party exempted itself from the multiparty group. So I say to members opposite that they did nothing to assist in solving the problem when they were in Opposition. In fact, they obfuscated it. They stood on the sidelines and criticised very, very reasonable efforts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe task force started in December 2004 and it went through for a period after that. That task force, comprising all of the Government\u2019s social agencies, plus the non-governmental organisation sector, has spent a lot of energy, effort, intellectual ability, and resources to begin to address those issues. I say to Mr Ardern that one of the major messages was that one must not live with violence in one\u2019s domestic situation, that one must report it and find assistance. That has caused the major rise in the reporting of domestic violence. The member might want to talk to Mr Calder and explain it to him, so that members opposite can understand and stop this nonsense. It is intellectually dishonest. Ministers and members opposite ought not to do that, because it does them no justice and it does this Parliament no justice. It is a form of dishonesty that is just incredible to behold in this age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EI will go further and say that this Government has changed not one aspect of that programme. In fact, the Government\u2019s programme to address domestic violence is exactly the same programme that the Hon Ruth Dyson led as a Minister, and other Ministers supported it at the time. At one point half the Cabinet Ministers were members of the ministerial group to which the task force was responsible. Maybe the next Government speaker can clarify for us whether that is still the case and whether the member\u2019s Cabinet puts that much emphasis on it, because nothing has changed. The task force works on the same programme. The It\u2019s Not OK campaign works in exactly the same way. The community-led initiatives work in exactly the same way. The member\u2019s Government has added nothing to it, except for on-the-spot protection orders, I think. Labour members supported that measure as well. It was a slight tweaking of something that was already there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ETime and time again ethnic members in National\u2014Mr Bakshi, Melissa Lee, and the Hon Pansy Wong are in the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b82330986b54636850aa49ff5fbce07\u0022\u003EHon Pansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efbc800091784cdca4b8ef8d4f2a91eb\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Greetings, ni hao. Those members speak to ethnic audiences, and what do they do? They tout their achievements in reducing violence in our society, even though it is inappropriate to do so in many, many situations, where members of the audiences do not want to hear about the Government\u2019s work on violence. They want to hear Government members celebrating those cultures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262985fa1a26e42e68eb74f07997d1e8d\u0022\u003EHon Pansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: They love the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce6c0865c9a64cf0977c12a4c9611819\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: But time and time again, I say to the Hon Pansy Wong and her colleague, that is what those members do, and their audiences are just bored with it. It is time to stop doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMembers opposite have also been criticising this provision, which we used and which they now want to use. Of course, members opposite want it for a purpose. We would like to hear for how long the Government intends to use this provision. Is it for the summer, because by that time the Government will have solved the problem? Is it for another 6 months, because by then it will have found the answers? Is it for only 1 year, because by then all of the Government\u2019s new systems will be in place and it will have resolved the violence issues in our society? Or will it be for all of the Government\u2019s term? I ask whether members opposite intend that this will be their policy for the rest of their Government\u2019s term\u2014because it will be their last one\u2014and if it is not, then I ask what else they are putting in place. Members opposite have made this a violence issue. Members opposite have turned this into something that the Government is now guaranteeing. Members opposite are guaranteeing to New Zealand society that in your term you will have resolved this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224364e1f6716b455889dc513a57c54ba5\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f428934cb9430db292503dd0b94b35\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will the Government members opposite have resolved this issue in this period of time? I would put money on there being no guarantee that they can give that this provision will still be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228acb2f4585c24c0084e2a790475d529b\u0022\u003ETodd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ec414916c248428bb4925cc6c47f91\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr McClay can take me on; I will see him in the lobby afterwards. I would put money on it that this measure will not improve the situation. This is a generational shift we are talking about. Our society is violent, and there is much that we need to do about that. It is inappropriate for members opposite to promise that they can do much better. This will come to haunt their policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdcc485f4b84b0f8e295e9605725d3b\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e975939efbf4ea6bd6006f20ce49a24\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Sandra Goudie may smile, but what the Government is doing is explosive. It is appealing to the negative side of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002269b38cf486394f1982b51f32ef209766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b38cf486394f1982b51f32ef209766\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak briefly on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. The Green Party will be opposing it. It is an extraordinary bill. We have court cells to house the people who are being taken to court, and suddenly these cells are to be used to house prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022304b1f7ed0304df8b95761c12897d41a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Shock, horror!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3752a67d01a4ae69ec5c9b0551b9c07\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is an indictment on the prison situation in New Zealand. I believe we have the second-highest number proportionally of prisoners locked up in jail of any nation in the world. We are second only to America. My understanding is that for every prisoner locked up for a year, it costs $70,000. We are all fretting about budgets, but no one is worrying about that cost. We just keep pouring people into jails and it costs $70,000 a year per prisoner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut the problem, or the crisis, facing the Government is where to put the endless number of prisoners who are going into our jails. Now we will take court cells, which are normally used for people who are being taken to court, for this purpose. The first question I have to ask is what will happen once they are all filled with our prisoners\u2014and, mark my words, they will be. The bill talks about occasional use, but this bill being rammed through under urgency will allow court cells to become de facto prisons. When our court cells are filled with prisoners, where will the people who would be in those cells because they are being taken to court go? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93cceabb9614764a298f9531102c80c\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Caravans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228192faa3ffd3412fa18db86ca28badd7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Will we now have caravans outside our courts in an attempt to house those people because all the court cells will be overflowing with prisoners? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis bill is an absolute indictment on where we are in New Zealand with regard to this issue. Our prisons are overflowing but all we are doing is treating the symptoms and pouring more and more prisoners into jail, when we should be looking at early intervention, rehabilitation, finding non-custodial interventions for minor non-violent offending, and so on. We should be looking at rehabilitation and at the roots of crime. We know very well that the more unequal a society is, the wider the gap between the rich and the poor. The more that we have entrenched poverty, as we do in New Zealand, the more violence will occur and the more we will have prisoners. So why do we not deal with the root causes of why we have the second-highest number of prisoners in jail in the world, instead of resorting to these ludicrous situations such as turning our court cells into new jails? We will now have courts that are effectively jails. This is completely absurd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe bill also breaches the Resource Management Act. Normally we cannot just turn a court building into a prison because that would breach that Act. There would have to be a specific amendment or an allocation of land for the purpose of a prison. This bill will grant a Resource Management Act exemption so that nobody can challenge or even be consulted when a court building is to be effectively converted into a prison in his or her neighbourhood. People will wake up and find that the courthouse they have been living near will now effectively become a dual-purpose building\u2014a prison and a court\u2014and they will not be able to offer any objection because of the exemption in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis is an indictment and the Green Party is horrified. I am certain that this bill will breach not just our human rights legislation but also international legislation. I would be grateful if the Minister of Corrections could confirm what human rights legislation the bill breaches and could tell members how the Government is planning to circumvent breaching that legislation. I ask where the Government will find room to accommodate the people who should be in the court cells, and I ask what impact turning our courts into jails will have. What will we do when the court cells are all filled up? This is completely ludicrous. We have double-bunking and we have containers to house prisoners being erected around New Zealand. As some of the earlier speakers have said, we have an absolute crisis that shows the absolute failure of our approach to reducing prison numbers. The number of prisoners is escalating. It shows the failure to deal with the root causes of the issue. It shows that this is the inevitable consequence of the ever-widening gap between the rich and the poor in New Zealand, and the entrenched poverty we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThere is one other point that I keep mentioning, and it is completely ignored. It is well established that if violence is screened continually on television, as it is here, it legitimises violence and encourages young boys in particular to think that the way to solve problems is through violence. The Green Party secured funding to do some research on this issue. Thousands of studies have confirmed the findings that prolonged exposure to incidents of violence on television normalises violence. Violence is shown in cartoons. There are up to 16 episodes of violence in an hour of cartoons. Violence is saturating our television and it is encouraging the normalisation of violence in our society. We are bringing up young men to think that violence is a legitimate way to solve conflict. Is this Parliament trying to do anything about that? Is it doing anything to reduce the amount of violence that pervades our television sets? It is one of the root causes of violence. Are we trying to do anything about that? No, no; the two main political parties thump the anti-crime drum. Their members rush up and down the country. National and ACT in particular join with the Sensible Sentencing Trust in beating the anti-crime drum, but they do absolutely nothing to reduce the causes of violence. A very simple cause of violence is the amount of violence shown on television. There are many ways we could be reducing the amount of violence shown on television. We could require that programmes that are filled with violence are screened only after 10 o\u2019clock at night. We could be doing many things like that. But no, we are not doing anything to address the root causes of violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe are creating a society that is ever more unequal. We are entrenching poverty, as the report yesterday pointed out. Then we worry, and wonder why our prison population is out of control. It is one of the fastest-growing in the world\u2014the second highest. What will we do next? We have turned the courts into prisons, we have double-bunking in prisons, and we have containers around the nation for prisoners. When will this Government and this Parliament address the root causes and look at the whole issue of rehabilitation, early intervention, and finding other ways to reduce the number of prisoners and the amount of crime in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00225fbb6f79c5324ca7ae9ca1c5bdbb166e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fbb6f79c5324ca7ae9ca1c5bdbb166e\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in support of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. First of all, I would like to tell Dr Rajen Prasad that Indians do love this Government and really welcomed us. They were really disappointed that the last Government did not do anything about violence or anything about crime. This bill provides for the Department of Corrections to imprison prisoners temporarily in court cells. Court cell blocks have basic facilities, and an extended period of detention in such conditions would compromise prisoners\u2019 rights to humane treatment. In order to ensure that all prisoners are treated humanely and receive the statutory minimum entitlement, it is proposed that an amendment to the Corrections Act limit to 4 days the length of detention in a court cell. Prisoners under the age of 18 years and disabled prisoners will not be accommodated in court cells. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa8524874d914ddeaeed34bd197b5cef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022396afcf7e842486c9948ae5dfa330a39\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022410d6489929c47efb667ee27ae2fb704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022410d6489929c47efb667ee27ae2fb704\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill to take the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67944bfe2c74ca5821204291e3942db\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to take the bill as a single question. Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is no objection. We will take the bill as a single question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022473008a0ab894fe6a14f7b2447967c84\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a3ac6af2fa444ab6b6415c6cc7b022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a3ac6af2fa444ab6b6415c6cc7b022\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Corrections, Judith Collins. I think that the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Justice, Nathan Guy, will be able to answer them. The first question is with regard to the points that I made in respect of the regulatory impact statement. The Minister will know, presumably, even though he is a new Minister, that it is normal in a Government bill to have a reasonably robust regulatory impact statement. In fact, his colleague Rodney Hide, who holds the portfolio as regulatory tsar, pledged to the nation that he would cut through all the red tape and ensure that the bills that came into this House had been tested for their efficiency, that they were needed, and that the regulatory impact statements stacked up. The purpose of a regulatory impact statement is to test the strictures around bills like this. I would be grateful to know whether this bill got through Rodney Hide\u2019s detailed gaze\u2014whether he actually did his job and looked at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe problem we have with this bill is that it may well have made history in that there is no regulatory impact statement in it. There are a couple of lines that point to a regulatory impact statement, and there is the heading \u201CRegulatory impact statement\u201D. But until less than 24 hours ago\u2014I know this, because a copy of the bill was given to me earlier\u2014there was not even a URL included in the bill to link it to the actual regulatory impact statement that I have in my hand and that appears on a website. I would like to know why. I am sure the Minister will give us a long dissertation in this respect, because it seems to me that this proves the bill was rushed through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other issues I will raise with regard to the regulatory impact statement relate to some of the points I made earlier. Cabinet has agreed, on page 3 of the regulatory impact statement, that the period of detention in court cells would be for 4 days, or 96 hours. This legislation takes away the right of people to object to the use of court cells for the 96-hour period. It streamlines the process, and we will support that, for obvious reasons. But I think it is incumbent upon the Government to explain to this House and, through it, to the people in those communities that have courthouses that will be used\u2014I think there are some 100-plus cells, if I am correct\u2014how the logistical arrangements will be put together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EHow will these folk be fed? Will prisoners be shipped out during the day when the court sits? How will prison officers\u2019 logistical and security needs be dealt with? Where will the extra staff come from and who will pay for them? Where will the money come from? Who will administer to these prisoners whilst they are on additional sites in our courts? Will they be shipped out and back to prison during the day, and then shipped back to the court cells in the evening? How will they be fed, watered, and showered? Those are basic issues. I do not think that any of our courts have those logistical provisions. Court cells have very basic sanitation, but they are holding cells for people appearing before court, not accommodation for an overnight stay, let alone for 4 days. I would be interested to know how that will occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI ask whether there will be extra security, given the classification. Presumably these are low-classification inmates, but I ask whether there will be extra security for the 4 days that they are housed in court cells. I think that the Minister of Corrections does not know, even though this bill has been rushed through in urgency, because the Minister had no foresight to forecast and to look at the forecast that she is handed every day, if not every week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe are in the last 8 sitting days of Parliament, dealing with what is a pretty simple issue but one that has risks, as noted in the regulatory impact statement. Those risks are acknowledged by the Department of Corrections, so I would be grateful if we could know where the extra budget allocation is coming from for staff, because there will have to be one. Presumably, it comes out of baseline funding, so I ask what else will slip. I ask what other sorts of costs there are, because there is no reference at all to costs in the regulatory impact statement. What sorts of costs will be put upon the taxpayer for the transfer of prisoners and for the other logistical arrangements that are required? The Minister should answer these fundamental questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EClauses 4 and 5 are pretty self-explanatory\u2014we know what they are about\u2014as are clauses 1, 2, and 3. But we need to know about the detail and the processes contained around this bill and the day-to-day logistics and requirements of security arrangements if this legislation is to be implemented. I am particularly concerned about the safety of prison officers. I ask how those issues will be dealt with where prison officers do not have the logistical or security support that they would have in a prison. These are not prisons, these are court cells. I ask how that matter will be dealt with, and what the added security for prison officers is. What arrangements will be put in place to assist the people who are at the front line? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf the Minister of Corrections does not respond to those questions, then we have to assume that the questions are unanswered, that there is no planning in place, that this is just part of the rushed process of this bill, and that those planning arrangements will be cobbled together in the same sort of shambolic way that this legislation has been as we move through to Christmas. We know generally that the prison release policy takes place pre-Christmas, and normally a little bit of space is created. The regulatory impact statement also points to this legislation being used in the early part of next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would be grateful if the Minister could give members and the communities those assurances, because we know that these court cells are just basic holding cells. There are security issues for staff and basic transport and security issues for prisoners, and the welfare of staff and prisoners has not been addressed. Will we ship prisoners off to the local football club to be showered? Will they be transferred back to a prison nearby during daytime hours so that the court can function, and then shipped back in the evening? I ask what the cost of that will be. Where are the extra personnel who will have to do that task, and where are the extra vehicles and all the other ancillary services that we will need? I would be grateful if the Minister would answer those basic questions. I am sure she has a huge knowledge of this bill, and I am sure it will not be taxing, given that it is only five clauses long and fits on one A3 page. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00227b9a78dea4bb44439d84a8b10ccebf19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b9a78dea4bb44439d84a8b10ccebf19\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E There are quite a number of questions that the Committee deserves an answer to in addressing the clauses of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. I would really appreciate if we could have some answers from the Government to the following questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFirst of all, does the bill breach the Human Rights Act in New Zealand? I suspect it does. If it does, the Government should explain that. Secondly, does the bill breach any international human rights legislation? Thirdly, now that we are converting our courts into jails, some very practical issues arise. I presume that prisoners in jails have to be fed. I presume that they have to have showers and so forth. Will we have cooking facilities in our courts now? Will we have showers in the courts, so that prisoners can be showered? Where will they have their exercise? Where will the prison guards, who monitor them in these cells, be located? In my second reading speech I asked where the people who normally would be in the court cells\u2014people who have been taken to court\u2014would go. Will they sit on the steps outside, or will there be caravans outside New Zealand courts? We should be given answers to all those questions. This bill is being raced through this House with extreme urgency. Ordinary New Zealanders have no idea that this is about to happen. The debate has been shallow, to say the least, and why would it not be, because we know hardly anything about the issue. The bill is 2 pages in length but, nevertheless, far-reaching in its consequences. So I believe we are owed an explanation of these issues before the bill goes through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHow many courts in New Zealand are in residential areas? In many small towns the court is right next to residences, homes, and so forth. How many people will suddenly find that there is a jail next to their homes, in their suburbs, without their consent or without their even being informed? The extraordinary thing is that this bill acknowledges that in most cases it will breach the Resource Management Act, because we cannot turn a court into a jail without breaching most district plans. There are rules about the location of jails. Suddenly, we will breach all of the rules in district plans about setting aside specific areas for jails. Suddenly, we will allow our courts to be turned into jails, and we will grant an exemption so that nobody has a right to be consulted when a court in his or her neighbourhood is to be turned into a prison, and so that nobody can challenge it. Does that sound reasonable? We have a whole resource management process, we have district plans, and we have a very clear process to go through for the establishment of a new prison. We have to go through lengthy consultation, we have to abide by the Resource Management Act, and we have to abide by the local district plan. But, suddenly, we can sweep all that aside with one little 2-page bill and allow courts all over New Zealand to be turned into jails that house prisoners, and we will not inform New Zealanders in advance of that and we will not consult them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHas a select committee looked at this bill? Have we called for submissions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613a9c35133749538caa7b9e56a40e38\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No, they messed up the plan. It is rushed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa153df8c4443dbb5989dd7b06e50f5\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Will there be submissions on this? [Interruption] There are not going to be any submissions. This is extraordinary. This bill will significantly affect hundreds, possibly thousands, of New Zealanders. They will wake up and discover that their local court down the road is now a jail, and they will not be consulted or informed about that. This reminds me of the national environment standard on telecommunications that was rammed through Parliament last year. It allows cell antennae, masts, and so on to be erected on any telephone pole anywhere in New Zealand. Mr Mallard rammed that one through. The Greens predicted in this House that it would cause outrage round New Zealand when it went through, when people discovered that cell antennae and masts could be erected anywhere in New Zealand without their knowledge or consent, even though they could affect their health and well-being and their property prices\u2014their property prices could plunge by up to 20 percent. Have we been proven to be correct? Yes. All around New Zealand, groups are outraged. Every week someone else contacts me. Last week a guy in Invercargill discovered that a 15-metre high cell tower was about to be erected across the road. It is a 6-storey tower and no one had bothered to inform or consult him. I was speaking to a woman from Christchurch yesterday. When she took her daughter to school there was no cell tower; when she came home at 3 o\u2019clock to pick her daughter up, there was a cell tower across the road from the school. Is this the sort of New Zealand that we think is acceptable? There is growing literature about the health effects of cell towers. In fact, places like France are taking down cell towers near schools, and here we are putting them up without anyone\u2019s knowledge or consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis bill does exactly the same thing. New Zealanders will be gazumped by this measure. They will ask: \u201CHow did this happen? How come we have prisoners in our courthouse? Nobody told us about it?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86893e9af7f4f05b97187c178f020e7\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Bad planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9090acdcef7423495baecae3d819aa0\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not bad planning. The Government has rammed it through deliberately. Do not put it down to bad planning! How can such a bill not have gone to a select committee? It is about an issue of vital importance to New Zealand. We are converting our court cells into jails, and nobody is allowed to make a submission. Nobody will be consulted on it. Nobody will even be told of this measure. Someone will wake up, go to a courthouse somewhere in a suburb, and suddenly discover that it is a jail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWould someone please explain how this measure will work? I see that we now have a Minister in the chair, the Acting Minister of Corrections. I ask the Minister to please explain to the Committee where the prison guards who guard these court cells will be. Where will food be prepared for the prisoners? Where will they take their showers? Where will they have their exercise? What about the people who should be in the court cells; where will they be held? Will there be caravans outside our courthouses around New Zealand to serve as court cells? And why will the Government not deal with the root causes of crime, instead of allowing more and more prisoners, overflowing jails, and the second-highest prisoner population in the world? How much is this measure going to cost us? It costs $70,000 every year for every single prisoner that we lock up in jails or, now, court cells.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis bill is an absolute travesty. The Green Party will be opposing it. We expect answers to every single question that I asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcba18cbde6940e5940b6e4eb235921f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcba18cbde6940e5940b6e4eb235921f\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to take a call because I think the timing is probably convenient, if not perfect. As Labour speakers have made it clear, we will be supporting the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. However, some issues need to be addressed. I want to acknowledge the issues raised by the Hon Clayton Cosgrove and Sue Kedgley in relation to the impact that safety issues will have on court staff, on the police, and on the general public. As you know, Mr Chair, having been a former Minister for Courts, and having visited courts, court cells are not the most secure places in our communities. They are not intended to hold prisoners for long periods. I know that this bill will require those prisoners awaiting sentence to be held for 4 days only. But there are still issues surrounding holding an inmate awaiting sentence for that period of time. I will not call them prisoners, because they are basically on remand. However, issues need to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ECertainly the House is aware of the reasons for which the Labour Opposition supports this bill. There were issues that we had to deal with in our time in Government, and they meant that some inmates awaiting sentence had to be held in court cells for a limited period of time. But I wonder why the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill, because there has been no clear explanation from them. I take this opportunity, while the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, the Hon Dr Pita Sharples, is in the Chamber; I know that he is a strong advocate for community justice. I take this call because the Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, the Hon Georgina Te Heuheu, is in the chair, and I do not really know what her views are in terms of retention of inmates in court cells. I hope that both Ministers will take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI know that the M\u0101ori Party supported the bill that was debated previously in the House, the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill, and I wonder why that is the case, as well, given that the member for Waiariki totally opposes the establishment of the youth justice facility in the electorate of Waiariki, for ideological reasons. He claims that M\u0101ori do not support the prison system and therefore should not support the building of those facilities in communities, yet when it came to voting on the previous bill, there was overwhelming support from the M\u0101ori Party. It is the same old story. It is the same story with National, which says one thing when it is in Opposition and does another thing in Government. The M\u0101ori Party members say one thing in the community, but in the House they say and do things that are completely the opposite of what they claim they believe in. I hope that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs will take a call and explain the reasons why he thinks that M\u0101ori should be owners of the prison system. That ideology clashes with the traditional M\u0101ori cultural view. He is aware of that, as is the Minister in the chair. I wonder why they would not take the opportunity now to take a call and explain why they supported the previous bill that was in the House, and why they support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ELabour members are very straight, up front, and honest about our views about why the Labour Opposition supports the bill that was debated previously in the House, and why we support this bill. We are straight, up front, and honest about why we support that position. We are here to help the Government, because it does not have a clue about what it is doing. It needs help. One year in Government and what has happened? It is scavenging for ideas. This legislation is the best it could come up with. National opposed this type of legislation when it was in Opposition; now it does not have to oppose the legislation, because it is making it law. Well, how about that! What does the member for Rotorua think? Will he walk down the streets of Rotorua and say to the community: \u201CDon\u2019t worry, bros. We will hold you in holding cells for 4 days, but the law says we can do it now.\u201D How will he explain that to the M\u0101ori rangatira who supported him in some of the work he has done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a30a4e7a63d48d3b9501dbcd6cb3d47\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think they supported him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eefc5e3b52a485a96ae139701f59dbe\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: They were at his meetings. They ate his food. They drank his coffee. I think we can accept the usual flip-flop behaviour by the National-led Government, but, once again, I really, really wonder why the M\u0101ori Party has come here today to be present in the Chamber. I am sure that its constituents are waiting with bated breath to hear why the M\u0101ori Party supported not only the previous bill but also this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022693aff5753c341ddb316a09c27a0d890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022693aff5753c341ddb316a09c27a0d890\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have a few issues with the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill that are highlighted more effectively in the regulatory impact statement. I have one issue with regard to this point in the regulatory impact statement: \u201CTo ensure that all prisoners would receive their statutory minimum entitlements, Cabinet has agreed that the maximum period of detention in court cells would be four days \u2026\u201D. My question to the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, is what happens if there is still not a bed in a prison for them. What happens to them then? Is the period extended in which they are allowed to be housed in the court cells? Where do they go? Will they just be released? Will they be told: \u201CGo home, and we will come and get you when we have a bed.\u201D? What will the Minister for Courts do? That is one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMy other question is with regards to resourcing and the ability to cater to the needs of these prisoners in the court cells. Four days is quite a long time. In my head I have this visual picture of about 20 prisoners crammed into one cell, holding on to the bars, like we see in American movies. I am just wondering whether that will be the case. Will all these prisoners have their own cells in the courts? Will it be one per cell, or will there be double-bunking or triple-bunking in the court cells? I ask the Minister whether there will be one big cell where we put the prisoners all together for 4 days and just leave them to it. I wonder what will happen there. My colleague brought up the question of shower facilities, washing facilities, and food. How will we feed these prisoners? Will the courts be given a budget in order to feed these 30 prisoners that will be kept in a court cell for 4 days? What will happen, and how do we go about that? Will the security guards leave their post and go out to Pak \u2019N Save to buy some food to feed the prisoners? I ask the Minister how this will all work. That is what I would like to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the issues raised was that people who live in neighbouring areas will not be able to make a complaint about this legislation. They will not be able to ring up and say: \u201CActually, I do not agree with the fact that there are prisoners held in the court cells next door to where I live.\u201D What will happen if\u2014or when\u2014something goes wrong that affects the neighbouring community, and the public\u2019s safety is put at risk because of court cells being in an area where there people around. What will happen then? Will the Government respond to public safety concerns about any incidents that happen? Will it respond to those, how will it react, and what action will it take? I am not sure whether any of these things have been thought through, given that we were presented with this bill only last night and it has not had time to go up for any public scrutiny whatsoever. I think the people who really would have liked to have made a submission on this bill are those who are situated close to a court cell. Those who are living in such an area would probably have some concerns and would have liked to express those concerns in the form of a submission to the select committee. But, unfortunately, the Minister and this Government has taken away the right of the public to have a say on this bill. It is not the first time this has happened; it is something we have experienced on an ongoing basis since this Government got in a year ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702f0072893d4f6a927a0e877a5c475a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Standard practice!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46ff60be839462db960d418da753e2c\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: It is standard practice. The Government refers to the country when it was under Labour as the nanny State, yet it has pushed through a number of bills that have had no public scrutiny whatsoever because it thinks it knows what is right for all New Zealanders. It thinks New Zealanders do not need to have a say on anything. That is what we call a real nanny State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESome of the issues that have arisen across the course of the debate have been with regards to security officer numbers and their shortage in our prisons. That has been pointed out in a number of different articles in the New Zealand Herald and in various other sources. I ask what the Minister will do with regard to recruiting a higher level of security officers. Has she increased the budget for security officers in courts so they can cater to the needs of these prisoners; if so, how much did she increase the budget to? We would like to know how much the Government is anticipating it will need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022c13f53d67c6f4ef9a1fa8d800f546b54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c13f53d67c6f4ef9a1fa8d800f546b54\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (Acting Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I rise, not necessarily to answer all the myriad issues that have been raised, some of which I missed the argument on anyway, but to comment on one or two things. As the members on the Opposition side know, this proposal is about enabling temporary accommodation of corrections prisoners in court cells as a last resort where there is insufficient capacity in the prison system. Part of the reason I took this call was to acknowledge the Chairperson, the Hon Rick Barker, who, of course, did quite a lot of work previously in his role as the Minister for Courts to address this very issue of rising prisoner numbers and where and how to accommodate them. That is my first point, and it is an important one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c41a5f6377a48768be43b9b286120a0\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Where are they going to be fed and showered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ded3d3b47434164bae524128bfd4262\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member I am coming to that. It is not new that we have people in these cells. It is not something new or different that we have never before catered for. As is done anyway with prisoners on remand, accommodation is made to have them showered. They are taken to nearby prisons. Part of the implementation of this is that they do need to be showered and fed, but those things are done anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce6a68454c294a50af7cdb19efb6e987\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Soft on crims!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8fa3ef3a08949bca24c11e1fe479676\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are not soft on crims\u2014not at all. But we do want to make sure that we can house the prison population properly. Issues such as how they will be housed and how they will be fed are interesting to raise but if that member thinks about it, we have to do that anyway. People already use those cells, just not in relation to using them as prisons. The issue about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cc8c4f76d443ed85a08c699889b973\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef1f1a54d1347b6a7019cd55a518e4a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no, no\u2014double-bunking and triple-bunking is, I think, a red herring. There is no intention for that to occur in the cells. For a minute one could let the imagination run wild with this; I do not know where triple-bunking came from and I do not know how it would arise, anyway. I do not think it is worth spending much more time on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I said, corrections brings food into cells because the people who are locked in those cells have to be fed. Exercise will be on site if possible, but more likely they will be returned to the prison for that and for showering. During the day, court proceedings will take precedence, and prisoners will be returned, depending on whether there is enough room in the cells, either to the cells or to the prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe real reason I wanted to stand up was to address the issue that I believe was raised by the member Sue Kedgley regarding human rights implications. It is proper that that is raised. The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights affirm the right of every person deprived of liberty to be treated with humanity and respect. The Act and the Corrections Regulations 2005 provide for prisoners held in New Zealand prisons to be treated in a manner that complies with these international instruments, and it is consistent with the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAmong other things, this legislation sets out prisoners\u2019 minimum entitlements, requires certain categories of prisoners to be separated\u2014for example youth or unconvicted remand prisoners\u2014and provides access to inspectors of corrections and other complaint mechanisms. All requirements of the Act and regulations will apply to prisoners who are detained in court cells, and these requirements will be met. The proposal to limit the period of detention in court cells to a maximum of 4 days will assist in that regard. Depending on their implementation, because everything is in the implementation, the proposals in this bill appear to be consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. We have not ignored it, and I believe that goes some way to addressing the concerns raised in particular by the honourable member Sue Kedgley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022517671010d664ffcadff511ff642066b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022517671010d664ffcadff511ff642066b\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister in the chair for addressing some of the questions, as Minister for Courts. I was interested in a couple of the comments she made. She said triple-bunking does not exist. Firstly, if she goes up the road to a place called Mount Crawford prison she will see that it does exist in some of the cells there. Secondly, the Minister might want to get advice in respect of the Employment Court case\u2014and I will not go into it, because it is a current live court case\u2014that is occurring with the prison service, where I am advised that there are arguments for triple-bunking now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022089cf8f4441e46d9891bc14acfc823be\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: In the cells?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263f3234d1c614c5f9b6ca419a3607ac9\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we do not have triple-bunking outside the cells; we have triple-bunking inside the cells in our prisons. Also, if we can make that leap of faith and if there is an overflow, because there is no reference to it in here, there is no guarantee in the legislation to say there will be one prisoner per cell or two prisoners per cell in a court holding cell. If the Minister is giving us that commitment, I would be grateful if she could reiterate that it is one prisoner per cell. The reason I raise this is that it raises security issues for prison officers. There are a whole series of issues\u2014food, transportation, staff security, and sanitation\u2014that the Minister did not address. The questions we raised were where, how much, where the money was coming from, how many staff would be needed, would it be the case that in order to access sanitation facilities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba6e86c0e4c14af5bfb823e7f0e03a78\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: This is repetitive!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd06f37b345e439fb92639d15ce110fa\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e6122423bd4585979f338468519084\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I said this is repetitive, incredibly repetitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a81d2875fb74c678140c5e4a2925a58\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is repetitive for those who are sharing the family brain cell. They are legitimate questions that we should ask. I know that that member, who is the chair of the Law and Order Committee, has not taken a call and did not advocate to have this legislation before a select committee, and now she does not want any questions raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe reason why it is repetitive, I say to Ms Goudie, is that we have not had the answers. The Minister has been generous enough, I admit, to address a number of points but the reason we are raising questions is that we cannot do it in a select committee. We can do it only in this forum. If we want to earn our pay, our job here is to ask the questions and to test the validity of the legislation. That might be a bit beyond that genius over there, as she squawks away and has a go at us for doing our job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae4399baa024682b59fae5a2d8476ad\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s one of their brighter members!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478c01f1b9574845b81e4492c158c586\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I make no comment on that. I ask the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7a06c3a1bc47f2a9b88131e9746458\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s one of their more intelligent members!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cb93bdd74654c7188fe81e0cea917e7\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague says that she is one of National\u2019s brighter members\u2014well, God help us! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister a serious question: if there has to be food, water\u2014and obviously there does\u2014and sanitation, and prisoners will be shipped out, how far will it be? Will it be 50 kilometres, or 100 kilometres to the nearest prison? I suspect it could be. The Minister\u2019s department will require extra salaried staff, extra transportation, and there will be a cost in the downtime of moving people in and out of the courts, day and night. They will have to do that; the courts operate during the day, so prisoners will have to be shipped out during the day, as the Minister said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis is my question. Nowhere in the Minister\u2019s statement did she address the issue of cost. I assume that the extra costs for staff, security, sanitation, and transportation will be addressed out of the baseline, because there is no new Budget allocation. Of course, the Department of Corrections is before the court at the moment over the whole double-bunking issue. We know from the chief executive, Barry Matthews, that there are military, logistical plans in place if there is a strike and a lockout\u2014he has told us that. These costs are up in the air. I would like the Minister to tell us whether she will give us a guarantee about \u201Cone person, one cell\u201D as the issue of the safety of the prison officers then arises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWill the Minister also address another issue that I think one of my colleagues raised? If something goes wrong, who will be accountable? We know that the Minister of Corrections is very fond of taking credit for anything that is good news, but when something goes wrong it is an operational matter\u2014\u201Cgo and see those people in the department.\u201D This bill has not had any consultation; Ms Goudie does not like consultation. There has not been any time to look through it and pick apart the logistics. The bill has just five clauses, but it is the implementation that is more important. What will occur in the circumstances I have mentioned? Will this Minister guarantee that her colleague Judith Collins will stand up and be accountable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022f068416215684cc1b1a1acbf7b49b6c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f068416215684cc1b1a1acbf7b49b6c0\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take a short call to raise three matters. Before I do so I refer to something my colleague Sue Kedgley said. She is absolutely right that there are many drivers of crime. Government members have made the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill a crime issue as well, so it would be useful if Government members could address this when they are looking at the drivers of crime. Ms Kedgley is right that the notion of television violence ought to be looked at again, because a precautionary risk management approach was recommended some time ago. It ought to be put alongside a host of other factors that result in the rise in crime and criminality. I hope Government members will do that, but I rather suspect they will not, because it is far sexier to take one driver as if it will answer everything. It will not, but that might be what members of the public want to hear in the \u201Cget tough on crime\u201D rhetoric that we often hear from Government members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EClause 4 of the bill seeks an exemption from the Resource Management Act; the regulatory impact statement says that this prevents residents and others affected from challenging overnight accommodation of prisoners in court cells. That is pretty clear. I am not familiar with all of the cells that are associated with our courts around the country, but perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Hon Georgina Te Heuheu, could clarify for us whether this provision applies to all of them or whether some are in such a position that they would be precluded from being accessed through this particular provision. If so, how does the Minister intend to go about regulating for that or making it clear? That might assist those who are losing their rights to take the matter further through the Resource Management Act, and it might satisfy them that their concerns will be addressed if there are good reasons why particular courts with cells in them should not be used for this purpose. I would like to hear the Minister talk a little about that so that those listening can be satisfied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThere is also a reference in the regulatory impact statement to an agreement between the Ministry of Justice and the Department of Corrections. I would like to hear a little more about what is to be in that agreement. It simply says that there will be an agreement, but what kinds of things will be in that agreement? Other members of the Opposition have identified some elements, but there are others as well. What has been the experience of using this facility in the last few years and how will that impact on this particular agreement? What risks are there, and how will those risks be managed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EPeople have also raised the question of guards and how their needs are to be met. We would like to hear a little more about that agreement between the ministry and the department\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89777455835497a8e4baec5a7f0fcb3\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019ve heard enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecd482e25104f128669f683a330f025\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Goudie that we have heard nothing about those agreements. Perhaps Ms Goudie has been sleeping. I know she is bored by this discussion, but if she had been following the discussion she also would have raised this question. Perhaps she will raise it in her caucus; perhaps she ought to. Certainly we are not bored by this; it affects people and it affects many in the communities in which we live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe third point I raise is reasonably serious. The regulatory impact statement states: \u201Cit is considered that the option of using court cells for over-flow prisoners needs to be available on an ongoing basis,\u201D. In much of what members opposite have talked about they said that this provision was a temporary thing. But the regulatory impact statement states that it is an ongoing provision; there is nothing short-term about it. We would like it to be clarified whether it will be used for ever or whether it will be used for the short term. We would like the Minister in the chair to address that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022c789a86d21db4f0aa7e29c1c90b1c22d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c789a86d21db4f0aa7e29c1c90b1c22d\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Associate Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a short call on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. We agree with most of the speakers\u2014there are a lot of dangers in this legislation. Although we will support it, we think there are a lot of things that have to be taken care of before it proceeds. I am not worried about the food, I am not worried about the latrines, and I am not worried about the showers. I think those issues can be dealt with. But I am worried about safety. Safety is a major issue. There have been several break-outs from court cells\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc613804cb1f4281a0c3a07d2f68af68\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I think we had better check. I think Sir Roger is asleep, but I just want to make sure it is not something more serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d1dfcdb3ce4e94a979c7333d0624df\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that that is not a point of order, and the member should reflect upon that and what it does for the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221447c86e85e482a886565705bdcf9d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to carry on after being interrupted by the observant member Trevor Mallard. As I said, those safety issues need to be taken care of. There have been several break-outs from court cells. One was through a window and another was through the ceiling. In fact, I think one of my nephews got away from the Waipukurau prison in that way. I think it is important that 18-year-olds continue to be kept separate from older prisoners, even when in a holding period and not in a semi-permanent period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis measure has to be temporary; it cannot be any longer than that. Given that those things are taken care of, the M\u0101ori Party will support this bill but only as a temporary measure. The reality is that by June next year more cells will be needed to incarcerate the many people who are in there now. We are in this situation because prison numbers swelled under the previous Labour Government. Numbers went from about 5,000 in 1996 to 8,400 now. So I am not saying that Labour is at fault for all of that increase, but, quite clearly, that is what happened over that period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe need to do something about it, and to me the solution is the work that we do in our society. We have to create stable families. We have to put our effort into the community. It is through education and well families that people will turn away from a life of crime. I think we all have to work on that across parties, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI will humour the member Mita Ririnui as to why I supported the Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill last night. I gave two speeches\u2014[Interruption] I guess he must have been asleep at that time, but never mind. I supported the bill for a number of reasons. One of them is that a lot of groups want to go into partnership with iwi and have a joint venture, if you like. Now, the number of M\u0101ori in the population has not dropped as a percentage, but M\u0101ori make up more than 50 percent of the people in jail. What is there now has not worked, so we should try something different, and that measure is an option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn terms of recidivism, we have some buildings in the pipeline called Whare Oranga Ake, which is basically a rehabilitation institution. It is still a prison; it caters for the last part of an inmate\u2019s lag. Prisoners will put into a programme of therapeutic analysis so they can analyse their own situation. They will be reconnected with the community and with family. They will be trained in an occupation, and so on. They will live in self-care units for four persons. But they will have to earn their way to get into these units. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe good thing about this whare is that if we have a whare for 32 or 36 people, then the majority of the people will not reoffend. So we are actually creating 32 more beds each time there is a roll-over, whereas right now in prisons we are just refilling the beds, sending the inmates out, and then getting them back in again. To me the first emphasis has to be on the rehabilitation of those inmates in jail now and on attacking the recidivism rate. The second emphasis is to look at alternatives to deal with the prisoners in jail now. Over the years the job of prisons has been to just incarcerate, not to rehabilitate at all. Despite brilliant attempts by a lot of people to do a lot of things, the reality is that the prison system as it is now is a \u201Cgood guy, bad guy\u201D place where they learn a lot of stuff that is not helpful when they get out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt is very important to me that we break the cycle of recidivism, but it is also important that we do more than just incarcerate people and then send them out. If prisoners cannot make it when they get out and if the support is not there, they re-associate with the former inmates they have known, and sooner or later it is easier for them to go back to jail. A lot of recidivism is deliberate. They find it difficult to make it out there so they commit a crime, knowing that they will ultimately be caught, and they go back into prison. I have been there when prisoners have been readmitted. I have seen them walking down the corridor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI remember going to the annex, which is where inmates go for the last part of their sentence before they leave P\u0101remoremo prison. I remember some guys who were going to go flatting. They were going to do this and that\u2014they were full of ideas and hope. I visited them a month later and there were no light bulbs in the flat, there was no money, and there was no food. They were down in their boots, and they had no jobs. Two months later they were back inside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI have seen people go back inside, walk down the corridor and say: \u201CHi, Jim, hi Joe. Still got my guitar? Put me on the list for Christmas.\u201D, and this and that. They are back home again. That is what we are dealing with and that is what we have to break. That is the reason that I supported the legislation last night. Let us try something different, something innovative. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u002231408cf1110848c58678e8fb2e0153e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231408cf1110848c58678e8fb2e0153e5\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who is also the Associate Minister of Corrections, for his contribution to the Committee stage of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, although I am flabbergasted at some of his comments. He stands up in the Chamber and says that questions about this bill need to be asked and answered. But he is the Associate Minister of Corrections, so he should have all the answers. He should come here and provide the answers. There should be no issues with this bill. The problem is that, as usual, the Minister is not in the loop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256651cd46a1f46f690a2073e98bd8f98\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Opposition is thwarting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a49916bec664518bdc709912d81bd93\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: I am not surprised that the chair of the Law and Order Committee does not want this bill to go to the select committee. She does not want to hear about the problems that it will create. She wants it to pass through the House uninhibited, without any problem whatsoever. Well, life should not be like that. Any bill that passes through this Parliament without proper and full scrutiny will be flawed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI take it from the contribution of the Associate Minister of Corrections that the major flaw in this bill is that he did not know anything about it. He may have stood up in the Chamber last night and made some grand statements about M\u0101ori owning the corrections facilities, but he has made that statement on a purely commercial platform. He also has this ideology that if we change the nature and the way that prisons are managed, then M\u0101ori will not reoffend. Well, life is not like that. We have to deal with the social circumstances that affect these people if we are to reduce recidivism. The Associate Minister of Corrections may have made two speeches in the Chamber last night, but I did not hear them. He thought I was asleep in the Chamber, but actually I was in his electorate listening to the concerns about his performance in the Chamber on the emissions trading legislation, on the two corrections bills, and on a whole lot of other issues that he has failed to deal with. However, he is learning the realities of politics on the front line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI turn now to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Georgina Te Heuheu. Some very practical issues are involved with this proposal. The Minister raised the first one, and I thank her for responding to the queries raised by the Green member and by my colleague Carmel Sepuloni about the safety issues and logistic issues with the bill. I take it that the Minister probably has not been into a courtroom holding cell, because if she had she would have a better understanding of the way they are constructed. They are far different from prison cells. They are far different from police cells. They are not staffed by trained security people or police officers; they are staffed by court staff. They are staffed by people who are administrators of court procedures and the like. These people are not trained to deal with inmates who are held on remand, awaiting sentence by the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe problem is that the Minister and the Government have not given this proposal a lot of thought. One thing the Minister is very good at is exalting your good work, Mr Chairperson, as the previous Minister for Courts. The Minister certainly seems to know everything about that. I endorse everything she said, and I say well done for that period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister, apart from answering the questions raised by my colleague Rajen Prasad\u2014and there were only three so she should not have any trouble doing that\u2014can take a call on this scenario. She said that inmates will be taken to the nearest prison for showers and other facilities. I suppose she would dial a pizza, and the inmates would be fed. Take, for example, the district courts at Whakat\u0101ne and Tauranga, which have holding cells. The nearest prison is something like 3\u00BD hours\u2019 drive away, right next to her electorate office in Taup\u014D and further south in T\u016Brangi. It seems to be a huge drain on resources to get a security vehicle, staffed by two members, to take prisoners 3\u00BD hours down the road for a shower and then bring them back\u2014and I suppose they will want to go to the toilet while they are there. They might even want to be fed on the way there and on the way back. I know that the Minister\u2019s portfolio is not resourced to handle those sorts of contingencies, because the Minister of Finance is cutting back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00227e32564c90584b739de1d36c0dac7b29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e32564c90584b739de1d36c0dac7b29\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make a number of points about the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. The first is that we have been told by the Associate Minister of Corrections\u2014and I thank him for responding to some of those questions\u2014that we should not worry, because prisoners will be held in court cells for only 4 days at a time. I thought that that was interesting, so I looked through the bill, and I found nothing in it that says they are to be used for only 4 days at a time. There is nothing about that in this bill. There is no regulation and no legislation to require that prisoners will be held for 4 days only in court cells. Let us be absolutely clear about that. The regulatory impact statement says that Cabinet has agreed that prisoners will be there for 4 days only. But what will happen if it has another meeting and agrees to extend that time? Cabinet can extend it without regulation, without legislation, without even having to go through the charade of ramming another bill through Parliament under urgency, and without allowing any submissions to be made. It can just quietly agree to extend the time period way beyond 4 days. Let people be absolutely clear that nothing in this bill states that this measure is for 4 days only. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe second point, which my colleague pointed out very well, is that the Government has said that this measure is just temporary. We are told we should not worry, because it is just temporary. But the regulatory impact statement says this option needs to be available on an ongoing basis, so let us at least have a little honesty in this debate. This measure is a permanent one that will be used to convert courts into prisons. It is permanent\u2014it will be used on an ongoing basis. The spin says it is temporary; the spin is that the time period will be 4 days only. But nothing in the bill limits the practice to 4 days, and the issue of prison overcrowding will be ongoing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne cannot help but wonder what the Government will do next. Once it has converted court cells into prisons, where will it go next? Will prisoners come to Parliament? There are some spare select committee rooms here. Perhaps we could convert those into cells. At least we have some facilities here; at least prisoners could have showers here. At least they would not have to travel for 3 hours to have a shower, as we have been told would be the case with many of the court cells, and at least they could get their food from Bellamy\u2019s. I think that would be a much more cost-effective option than the use of court cells. Furthermore, we have security here, so we could even double up on security. So my suggestion is that we start by looking at using Parliament before we look at using court cells. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne of the things that astonished me is that the Associate Minister himself\u2014in fact, both the Ministers who have spoken\u2014acknowledged that there are huge issues here. There are huge unanswered questions. Nobody knows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5fa61d770645f5a06d55b9c30fd7be\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Someone talked to the Associate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228183112f16154d19a9033283bda8bbcf\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Associate Minister says he does not know the answers to these questions. We have been told that prisoners will travel to the nearest prison to have their shower, but, as some of my colleagues said, that could mean travelling for 3 hours. There is a world of difference between a prisoner going to a court cell for a few hours and a prisoner being kept in a court cell for 4 days and 4 nights. My prediction is that it will be for 4 months\u2014it will be ongoing. Nothing in the bill restricts the length of stay to 4 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe have all those unanswered questions. The Associate Minister himself says there are serious security issues here. The court cells are not built as prison cells, so there are huge security issues. The court cells are staffed by court staff. Will we suddenly have prison guards coming in from Rimutaka Prison and so on to patrol and to look after prisoners who are holed up in the court cells? We do not have answers to any of these questions. This is astonishing. A bill is being rammed through Parliament in the dead of night\u2014actually, during the day, I must admit\u2014and the Government has allowed not one New Zealander to be consulted on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002242737f19ba4443778f48833500e5a8b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242737f19ba4443778f48833500e5a8b4\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1be5c5a35d64e92a7d06cf630b29f33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1be5c5a35d64e92a7d06cf630b29f33\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up on something that Mita Ririnui said. It is a serious issue and it raises questions about management inside the Government and inside Cabinet. Dr Sharples got to his feet, said that he was supporting the bill, and that the M\u0101ori Party was supporting it\u2014we are not quite sure whether that includes Hone, but I put that aside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22f8af58d3c4297876af04d6d6a6580\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s in limbo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220678cb5586f74b47bdd04cf7eb48e7ef\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Here is the serious issue: Dr Sharples is the Associate Minister of Corrections. He got to his feet, and I concede that he raised some very legitimate questions. He asked for answers. I have a question, through the Chair, to that Minister. He shares an office somewhere down the corridor from the Minister of Corrections. He shares a portfolio called \u201Ccorrections\u201D with the Minister of Corrections, and, as Sue Kedgley and others pointed out, that Minister, who is a member of the executive, has raised serious questions about a bill that comes under his portfolio. He does not know the answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThat raises a serious issue. It could mean a number of things. It could mean that he has not read his briefing papers\u2014and we know, from the financial review, that the Minister of Corrections received in the order of, I think, a couple of hundred briefing papers. The Associate Minister of Corrections received 17 in a year. So either he does not read his briefing papers, or\u2014and I suspect that this is closer to the truth\u2014the Minister of Corrections does not communicate with her associate. I would have thought that the Associate Minister would, when he was in the Chamber, be the Minister in the chair, not Georgina te Heuheu, the Minister for Courts. This issue is not within her portfolio brief. I would have thought that the Minister of Corrections would be in the chair, because she knows this bill\u2014all five clauses, one A3 piece of paper, and 3\u00BD pages of the regulatory impact statement on a website\u2014backwards, and she would have been able to rattle off in a microsecond the answers to the legitimate questions around security, transportation, sanitation, and budgetary costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EHere is the point: the Associate Minister gets up and makes history by questioning his own bill. He worries about the consequences of the actions in terms of implementation in a bill that is under his partial control as the Associate Minister of Corrections. I ask to members opposite what show they are running in a Government, an executive. What is the management around this issue? The bill has been brought in with 8 parliamentary days to go, and the Associate Minister of Corrections has questions. I used to be the Associate Minister of Justice. When the Minister of Justice was not here I often took the chair in the Committee stage of bills. I was expected to be able to answer questions about justice bills. Why? Because the Minister of Justice and I talked to each other, we read our briefing papers, and we took an interest in bills as we had shared responsibility for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut today we have made history. The Associate Minister of Corrections gets up, laments, worries, and raises legitimate questions about a bill that he is partially responsible for as the Associate Minister, and he cannot or will not answer those questions himself, because either he was not briefed or he was not treated in a mana-enhancing way. I mean that in all seriousness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo there is a management issue within this Government. Surely Dr Sharples could take a call and answer his own questions. And I do mean it; I say that to \u201CThe Maestro\u201D, Dr Coleman, over there. He has an Associate Minister of Immigration. I wonder whether they talk to each other. I wonder, if there were an immigration bill, whether Kate Wilkinson could take the chair, or whether she would have another folic-acid moment. There is a serious management issue within the executive of this Government. I am astounded that an Associate Minister could not get to his feet and say that he would put up his hand and answer those questions, rather than raising questions himself and saying that those issues have to be satisfied and dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI ask him where he was when the bill went through Cabinet. Where was he when the bill was drafted? Why did he not raise those issues with his own Minister? Or, if he did, why did she not listen to him? She cannot have listened to him, because he has raised those same issues on the floor of Parliament. He is looking quite legitimately for some parliamentary support, which he has not received from his own Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00225d58c9c371354eaf8c25931c2d75ee70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d58c9c371354eaf8c25931c2d75ee70\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c729e260374349c0b3d05a5255ded891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c729e260374349c0b3d05a5255ded891\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have to take a call, because my colleague Mita Ririnui did not get to finish the scenario he was putting to the Minister of Corrections. I really need to finish explaining that scenario, because it is a scenario that could happen, and the Minister needs to take it seriously. The Government has not had enough time to consider these types of scenarios, because it has not put the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill through the appropriate select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI shall carry on from where my colleague Mita Ririnui was when he finished. The issue relates to courts and their distance from prisons. He talked about courts like those of Whak\u0101tane, Tauranga, and \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, which do not have a prison in the near vicinity, and which are quite a distance away from the nearest prison. In fact, to get from the Whakat\u0101ne court to the T\u016Brangi prison, which is the closest prison, takes about 3 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383ee31aa0df45a78c15c6aedbc323c6\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Plus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220486787328494766b47abe53b7a9b765\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: It takes 3\u00BD hours. I have an issue in regard to what the Minister said earlier in terms of sanitation and the health of the prisoners. She said that the prisoners will be driven to the nearest prison so that they can shower. We thought about that, and we thought that it would be difficult for the security officers driving the vans to provide the prisoners with food and everything else. Perhaps along the way, on their 3\u00BD hours\u2019 drive in the security van, during which they are listening to Bob Marley and singing, they will drive through Kentucky Fried Chicken and get a feed, and on the way back they will drive through it again so that they can pick up a party pack for the prisoners\u2019 mates back in the court cells in Whakat\u0101ne. So on their way there they will get a feed, and then they will get to the prison, where they will have a shower. The security officers will then turn round and drive for another 3\u00BD hours to get those prisoners back to the court cells where they are being held. What if one of the prisoners all of a sudden thinks it would be really funny to soil himself, so that he would have to be driven for another 3\u00BD hours all the way back to T\u016Brangi to be cleaned up? The security officers would not want to leave him like that; they would not want the other prisoners to feel any discomfort because one of their mates has just soiled himself. I do not know whether the Minister has actually thought that one through, and thought about that sort of scenario. It is the kind of very real scenario that she might be faced with after the Government has brought this legislation through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier\u2014and as all the Labour members have said\u2014Labour will support this bill. We are supporting this bill because the National Government is in crisis over this situation. It is in crisis over it. It knows that its prisons will not have the capability to deal with the numbers of prisoners it is expecting due to the rise in crime that is already happening, and the expected further rise in crime. So Labour has to support this bill. We in Labour know that the Government needs somewhere to put those prisoners, and the only option for it is the court cells. This issue has come up before. It is not a new thing; it is something that has happened before. But the National Government is taking it to the extreme in legislating for it, and it is doing that because it is in crisis. Its prisons will not be able to deal with the sheer number of prisoners coming through because of the amount of crime being committed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMy colleague from the Green Party Sue Kedgley brought up a very, very good point earlier on in relation to the regulatory impact statement, which points out that prisoners can be held in court cells for no longer than 4 days\u2014I think it is 96 hours. That is the longest time they can be held there. She pointed out that although that provision is mentioned in the regulatory impact statement, it is not in the bill itself. Therefore, if that aspect of this bill is not fixed up, the Government will be able to house prisoners in court cells for as long as it wishes\u2014for as long as the need is there, for as long as the prisons are in crisis, and for as long as crime is on the rise. More crimes are being committed, and the Government cannot cope with the numbers of prisoners. The Government now can keep prisoners in court cells. That is a real issue, especially given the fact that the public have not had a chance to make submissions on this bill. The public are at risk\u2014that was pointed out in the regulatory impact statement\u2014in regard to court cells holding prisoners, given the proximity of court cells and courts to people living nearby. That has not been addressed, and we need to address it. The public would have a concern about it. So I thank the Green member for pointing out that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EShe also pointed out that there is perhaps a secret agenda of the National Government to convert the courts into prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002213ddd0ba64764da0a6fa2ca0882b91cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ddd0ba64764da0a6fa2ca0882b91cd\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022da4afeedeeb74ea498e8671e76d3d1c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000331\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000332\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e17f12d5f8b9400db08a879b17c298aa\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00224ec71024e8e94f5190b0d57ee9be4ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ec71024e8e94f5190b0d57ee9be4ab2\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (Acting Minister of Corrections)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill makes one amendment to the Corrections Act and a consequential amendment to the Resource Management Act. This bill will provide the Government with increased flexibility in its response to the growing prison population. This bill is part of a range of measures, both short term and long term, that the Government is introducing to help manage the growth of the prison population. Passing the bill before the House rises on 22 December will mean that the changes in this bill can be put in place in time to be used in the new year if necessary. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9db3288496c46438427bb21eec55ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9db3288496c46438427bb21eec55ab2\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E This started off as a pretty mundane sort of debate, with Labour supporting the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill because there needs to be some flexibility in the use of court cells. But as the debate moved forward, a number of legitimate questions were raised about how this five-clause bill would be implemented. The Green members raised questions, my colleagues in Labour raised questions, and the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s Associate Minister of Corrections himself, the Hon Dr Pita Sharples, raised questions on his own bill. We will get to that in a minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Corrections did not take a call in the Committee stage, never sat in the chair, never answered any questions, and now has not taken a call in the third reading. The Associate Minister of Corrections was, presumably, not allowed to sit in the chair to have questions put to him. Rather, he bizarrely raised questions on his own bill. Nor was he, presumably, allowed to read at least his third reading speech as Associate Minister of Corrections. One has to ask why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs I said in the Committee stage, a number of possibilities present themselves. Dr Sharples says that he and the M\u0101ori Party support the bill\u2014presumably Mr Harawira does, wherever he is. We think so, but we do not know. But the most bizarre thing to come out of this debate is something I have not seen in my 10 years in this place, and that was an Associate Minister raising questions on, and expressing dissatisfaction or concerns about, a bill before the House. The question is: why? Either he did not raise those concerns with his Minister or his Cabinet colleagues, or he did raise them and they were completely dismissed, or he did not have his eye on the ball, or he was not shown the respect that an Associate Minister should be shown by his Cabinet colleagues and by the Minister herself. One or a multitude of those possibilities have to be true, because otherwise why would an Associate Minister of Corrections come down to the Chamber and lament, and raise concerns and risks about the implementation of a bill that he is partly responsible for? What is the answer to that? I hope we might have a call from him. Sandra Goudie is over there giving him the benefit of her vast experience and knowledge on those matters, feeding him lines. I think Dr Sharples is not a bad bloke, so I advise him not to take any advice from Sandra Goudie, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELegitimate questions have been raised about this bill. There will be extraordinarily large costs dealing with the logistics of transportation, food, security for staff, and security for the community, especially in relation to transportation. As Mita Ririnui, a former Associate Minister of Corrections, pointed out, it is a 3-hour drive from Whakat\u0101ne to the nearest prison. None of those issues have been addressed, and I thought they would be addressed. This bill, in its essence, takes away the right of a community to object. We support that because we have to house these prisoners somewhere, but I would have thought that the Government, or the Associate Minister especially, would use its time in the House to at least address the basic logistical issues of implementation that we and others have raised, to give those communities a level of comfort, especially around the issue of security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo I just express quite a bit of amazement that the Associate Minister of Corrections has presumably been treated so shabbily by his Minister and his Cabinet colleagues. I cannot see how that sort of treatment being meted out could be considered mana-enhancing according to National and the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s coalition relationship. Maybe things are starting to fall apart on the back of the emissions trading scheme, Hone\u2019s comments, and other things. I would have thought that the Associate Minister would at least phone Judith Collins\u2014maybe he has. Maybe between the Committee stage and the third reading he has phoned Judith Collins and said that he has some concerns about this; maybe he asked her to at least listen to those concerns before they tick off the bill. Obviously that has not happened. That says a large amount, and it tells us and the community a lot about the management style and culture inside this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis is a five-clause bill on a piece of A3 paper, bolstered hugely on a website by a regulatory impact statement that was not even included with the bill, because the bill was so rushed. As the Green member and others have pointed out\u2014and I am sure communities will be interested in this\u2014the so-called maximum period of time that we can house a prisoner in a court cell, according to a regulatory impact statement that is on a website but not printed with the legislation, is 96 hours. So the question then is: is it by regulation or Government fiat that those hours and those days can be increased? Maybe the Associate Minister of Corrections might be involved in these future discussions, but I would not bank on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI am told by reliable sources whom I trust and who work in the Department of Corrections that, as we speak, some 800 beds are available and free to house prisoners in. I believe those sources because they are in the front line. I will not name them, for obvious reasons: Judith Collins may administer the political version of the crusher. But if that is the case, the question is: why is this bill being rushed through? Why has it taken until there are 8 parliamentary days to go in the year for the Minister to ante up, throw a bill on the Table, and say that we need to do this? It could have had correct parliamentary scrutiny through a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f896003e7fd4ec1a91504c32fa8f151\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: They must need it before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2ce76880c7469db40371e6a273754b\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is interesting. That is the contradiction. Is it required before Christmas? We do not have the prison forecast on this side of the House. If 800 prison beds are indeed\u2014and I believe my sources\u2014available today, then why is the bill being rushed through? Why could it not have been given the parliamentary scrutiny of a select committee? It is a five-clause bill. Ms Goudie reared up and said we were being repetitive. Well, we are. We are raising legitimate concerns that are not rocket science. How will we feed people? How will we make sure prison officers are secure? How will we make sure the community is secure? How long will these folk be incarcerated in a court cell? Where will the money come from to transport them the 3 hours my colleague Mita Ririnui talked about between the Whakatane District Court and the closest prison? Where will the staff come from to do this? What will be cut out of the baseline? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI must give Georgina te Heuheu credit. Even though corrections is not her portfolio\u2014it is Pita Sharples\u2019 portfolio\u2014she attempted to actually answer some of those questions. Given that it is not her portfolio, I extend some goodwill because she made as decent a fist of it as she could. She was not aided or abetted by the Minister of Corrections, and she was not aided or abetted by the Associate Minister, who sat through the whole debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill is flying through the House, and it will go through with our support, for practical reasons of security, but none of the issues raised by members across this House have been addressed. They are not political issues; they ask how we will transport people, how they will be secured, how prison officers will be looked after, and what logistical arrangements will be put in place for prison officers. They are not political issues; they are practical issues of implementation. None of those issues has really been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will talk for a moment, in conclusion, about the nature of this debate. In the earlier speeches in the first reading debate, members got up and said a couple of things. They said it was a disgrace that we have so many people in prison. They were the same members, from the same political party\u2014the National Party\u2014who trumpeted the fact before the election that the then Labour Government was not locking enough people up, and that the Government had done nothing, when it had built four prisons. They were the same people who went to the country at the last election with a party manifesto that said that if they implemented every law and order policy they had, they anticipated a doubling of the prison population. Then they say that they did not know about this problem. Judith Collins says she did not know about this, even though she was planning, pre-election, for a doubling of the prison population, and even though the day she took up the warrant, the limousine, the salary, and the flat, she got a briefing to incoming Minister giving her the prison forecast, which everybody knew anyway. Most journalists knew\u2014for the last few years, anyway\u2014because the forecasts were made public. But she says she did not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThose members try to say, of course, that the Labour Government did nothing to incarcerate prisoners. Well, I invite them to go into the four prisons we built. We did not drop containers from the sky or off the boat; we built four prisons. We selectively double-bunked where we needed to, with the agreement of staff and with resources provided; we did not just cobble together a deal and bully some staff, then end up with staff taking us to court and the department being at war with itself. We did not then rush down to the House with 8 parliamentary days left this year because we did not have a plan, and then try to rush through a five-clause bill. We did have a plan. So I say to the Minister and to the National Party that it would be helpful if they answered some questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a0b90284834bce9db368f6feb7bddc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a0b90284834bce9db368f6feb7bddc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill and I state that upfront because it would have been fairly difficult for people listening to this debate to know which bill the Opposition is debating. I will run through the list of questions that the Opposition has asked repeatedly over the last few hours: why are we doing it now, where are those prisoners going to be fed, how will they be showered, will they be safe, and is this the most suitable use of legislation to cover that issue? All of those questions have been canvassed in the last few hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to members on the other side of the House that I have a few questions of my own. Why is this necessary now? After 9 years of the previous Labour Government and all of the forecasts it was presented with, and all the warnings the Opposition gave it as early as 2005, it did not build sufficient accommodation. Those Labour members talk about how they built four prisons. We know about the cost of overruns of those four prisons. We know what a shambles that was. We have not heard why it closed prisons like \u014Chura Prison. The Opposition corrections spokesperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf25596a1c5411c8fef4ab227d6f5b6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: We closed it down because there was sewerage going right through the town and it was going to cost $12 million to fix it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220279542930454bdfaaf6b2f4ddc16572\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we go. Finally someone from the Opposition knows why it closed it down. It was going to cost $12 million to fix it. How much did it cost to build the new prisons, which did not meet the standards? That member should take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIn his excitement to speak in Opposition for something Labour is voting for\u2014and another question is why it is voting for the bill\u2014Clayton Cosgrove said that he wished there was another election coming. Well, so do we, but I cannot understand it. There is something wrong with the psyche of someone who loves to be thrashed by the amount he would be if there was another election tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to members over there that there are a few questions they need to answer. Another question\u2014and the Hon Trevor Mallard will no doubt have a crack at answering this\u2014is why are we in this situation where there is a crisis in the accommodation for prisoners after 9 years of the previous Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb92117cd3734510bd952f36dca1055f\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re in Government now. What\u2019s your plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876ad2010c52485e92946608e2c97d36\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell that member to go and look at what the plans are going forward. Dr Prasad made a very interesting point when he talked about the good work that he has done in terms of trying to put the ambulance at the top of the cliff, of identifying problems with families and looking at doing something about that. I acknowledge him for the work he did. But Dr Prasad did not say how this Government has picked up on that work and is putting more resources into it than the party he now represents did for 9 long years. His party picked up work, looked at it, and said: \u201CIt is not broken. We\u2019re not going to fix it\u2014we\u2019ll support it.\u201D I say to Dr Prasad that when he stands in the House and starts accusing us of inaction, he should know that when we were in Opposition and we did not support something, we voted against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EFor this whole debate we have heard that Labour is supporting the bill, but its members speak against it. If that is not speaking with a split tongue, then I do not know what is. I think that is probably enough from me. The points have been made. Our whip is giving me the nod, so it is presumably time for me to sit down. Thank you. We support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00225a3435b57af047ebb1129c52628b533b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a3435b57af047ebb1129c52628b533b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I have been stimulated by the member opposite, Shane Ardern, to make a speech, which I was not going to do. The Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill is about the use of court cells. The vast majority of that speech was about prisons, why they are open and why they are not open. I have never heard of a local member so ignorant about the reason for a prison closure in his own electorate. There were complaints from his electorate. There was complaint after complaint about the \u014Chura Prison and the effect it was having on the local sewerage system, which was not working. Stuff flowed down the streets whenever the water levels of the \u014Chura River came up. Complaints were made to the local member. The previous Labour Government had the choice of putting in a $12 million sewerage scheme, an extra scheme that was unnecessary, or picking up the prison and taking it to Rangip\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think I know why that member is complaining. We know that \u014Chura Prison was known as the gentlemen\u2019s prison. It was the prison that was out in the country. There was no perimeter fence. It was a holiday camp. It was not locked at night. I think the reason the member did not want it to shift to Rangip\u014D was that it was just too far for him to visit his mates. It was too far for him to go and visit his gentleman mates who had been held in the gentlemen\u2019s prison at \u014Chura. It was a very low security prison. What has happened? The logical thing has happened. The buildings have been picked up and shifted across to Rangip\u014D. That means that fewer court cells have to be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022954ce06ce9384c569623caddd460e849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022954ce06ce9384c569623caddd460e849\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to speak in the third reading debate on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. It is a very sensible bill, and, of course, one that is supported by Opposition members. One would not think so, though, from all their rhetoric. To give members a little bit of background, 10 blocks of court cells\u2014that is 111 cells\u2014are currently gazetted as being part of Department of Corrections prisons. However, using the cells to house overflow prisoners is subject to section 9 of the Resource Management Act, which includes a requirement to comply with the rules of district plans. How many people would have any idea that the rules of district plans had some jurisdiction in regard to cells? I think this bill is a very sensible move to remedy that anomaly in the legislation. I commend the Minister of Corrections for bringing it before the House. I am delighted that it is done and dusted and will be enacted in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002228a96426123a4857afa316aae1aabcf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228a96426123a4857afa316aae1aabcf5\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will continue to oppose the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill. The principle that underpins it seems to be one of passively accepting that the number of people in our prisons will continue to increase. This is deemed to be inevitable, apparently. The prison forecasts suggest that current capacity will be exhausted from June 2010, presumably even with the imposition of the very dangerous and undesirable practice of double-bunking, which has been flagged for some of our prisons. The corrections officers at the sharp end of this debate are resisting this option, as well they might, given that they will suffer the inevitable negative consequences in terms of the safety and security of both staff and inmates. Given the date of June 2010 as the crisis point, it is surprising and, I have to say, disappointing that our Labour colleagues\u2014who have made some very strong, well-informed, and powerful statements opposing this bill\u2014nevertheless choose to support it. There is still time for a proper process to engage decently and properly with this issue. We have, according to these documents, until June of next year to have a proper process around this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement accompanying the bill notes that the option of using court cells to accommodate overflow prisoners has been used during periods of acute accommodation shortage. The word \u201Cacute\u201D suggests something unexpected and short term. Here we have, in fact, a long-term and chronic problem that demands a long-term vision, a long-term strategy, and some decent investment in real solutions. The bill is a classic band-aid solution\u2014or an attempt at a solution\u2014and it does not even pretend to address the long-term chronic issues and problems that demand urgent attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ECourt cells are designed to properly house people in custody while they are appearing in court. They are designed for short stays, and as such they have never been designed or constructed to provide the level of basic facility, or to meet the minimum requirements of longer stay prisoners. My colleague Sue Kedgley, who has been supported in a number of the Labour speeches, has identified the very basic issues. How will prisoners\u2019 meals be delivered and prepared? What toilet and bathroom facilities will be available to them? What facilities will there be to provide for family visits or other support? Where will prisoners exercise their right to physical exercise? How will prison staff be provided with adequate facilities as prescribed by their employment conditions? How will rehabilitation programmes\u2014which are invariably highly sensitive to interruption and depend on a carefully staged, managed, and sustained engagement\u2014be sustained or maintained? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are asked to simply accept that administrative safeguards will be put in place to ensure that this wholly inappropriate treatment of prisoners will occur only if it is strictly necessary, and that prisoners will continue to receive their statutory entitlements. This test of strict necessity is an interesting one, and I wonder what criteria, what indicators, and what standards will be established against which this very vague and amorphous notion of strict necessity will be measured. The statutory entitlements of prisoners that are referred to in section 69 of the Corrections Act include entitlement to physical exercise, to a bed and bedding, to food and drink, to access to private visitors, to access to statutory visitors, to access to legal advisers, to receive medical treatment, to send and receive mail, and to be able to make outgoing phone calls. How will any of these statutory minimums be met in the context of a court cell? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are assured, but by no means reassured, that the normal functioning of the courts will not be compromised. An interesting experiment could demonstrate the veracity of that assumption. Perhaps we could require the courts and the police at one or two of our larger courts to function for a few days at a time without access to the court cells\u2014let us just assume for the moment that those cells are full of long-term prisoners\u2014and see what effect this has on the proper functioning of the court system, which already works under considerable pressure. That fairly simple experiment would quite readily, at no cost, reveal the shortcomings of the propositions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESome reference has been made to the likelihood of transgressing the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. We already have case law. Taunoa v Attorney-General relates to a situation where it was deemed that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act had been contravened when a person who had been held in custody did not have a cell with sufficient standards of hygiene, where bedding and clothing fell below standards established by prison regulations, where there was inadequate monitoring of inmate mental health, and where exercise conditions were inadequate. All of these conditions are likely to apply in court cells. Clearly we now have legal precedent that there will be responses and implications from those conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EA rather sneaky mechanism in this bill that is being used to achieve its outcomes is an amendment to the Resource Management Act that overrides the authority of district plans. The Resource Management Act speaks of enabling people and communities to provide for their social, economic, and cultural well-being, and for their health and safety. The processes of preparing and enacting district plans demand a very high level of public engagement. An absolute requirement is placed on territorial local authorities to hear and respond to the public\u2019s views, and incorporate their preferences into the plans. The plans themselves are very powerful and influential documents. They enable and constrain members of our communities in the use and development of natural and physical resource. It is critical to the ongoing success of the Resource Management Act regime that there is a high level of public confidence in the process of plan preparation and enactment. This very brief but pointed bill, being pushed through under considerable urgency, is a very shabby mechanism indeed that will almost certainly undermine people\u2019s confidence in the integrity of the plan preparation and Resource Management Act processes more generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOver many years I have been involved in a number of issues and disputes around provisions and processes related to the Resource Management Act, and I know very well that in recognising its central and even unique ability to influence so much of our daily lives, members of the public become highly engaged\u2014and, indeed, passionate\u2014about the content and the application of the legislation. The initial surprise of any community that has worked long and hard to get provisions that meet their needs and ambitions in the plan will very quickly turn to cynicism with the whole process to the extent that Parliament passes a bill such as this that very neatly circumvents the work done to make district plans operational. The complete absence of any consultation on this bill, the lack of a select committee process\u2014all of this signals to the public that this Government is willing and able to jam through legislation that will have negative social and, indeed, economic impacts, and that the Government will provide absolutely no avenue for members of the public who will be affected to participate in the decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe do not actually need to surmise what the practice of putting prisoners into court cells will lead to. We have the benefit of overseas experience. There is a very interesting report from Her Majesty\u2019s Inspectorate of Court Administration in the UK, dated 20 August 2007, where inspectors from the inspectorate visited court cells that were being used in the context of significant prison overcrowding. The report \u201Craises serious concerns about the use of such cells.\u201D, which is exactly the practice that this bill is intended to facilitate. It highlights that \u201Cit is in the early days of custody that prisoners are most vulnerable:\u201D, and that most self-inflicted deaths occur within the first days, yet none of the support systems to prevent these tragedies existed in court cells. There was a lack of any \u201Cproactive reception or healthcare screening\u201D, \u201CPrisoners were being held in bare cells over a weekend, with no activity, no natural light \u2026 and with no exercise facilities\u201D, \u201CPrisoners spent long periods travelling in cramped vans \u2026 often arriving late and having to leave early the next morning\u201D, \u201CPrisoners could not contact their families\u201D\u2014indeed, families of prisoners did not even know where their family member was\u2014and \u201CShower facilities were inadequate and there was no opportunity for prisoners to change clothes, so they slept in what they were wearing.\u201D The inspectorate highlights that this was no shortcoming of the prisons or the court staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis is an abysmal bill. It is a disgrace, and the Green Party opposes it in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022072c355cdf0e4fd78ad9642875b916b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022072c355cdf0e4fd78ad9642875b916b9\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E The basic proposal in the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill is that the Department of Corrections will have access to court cells in order to house overflow prisoners from the first half of 2010, when the court cells may be needed. Once the bill has passed today, the Ministry of Justice and the Department of Corrections will fast track work specifying the cells that may be used for overflow prisoners, the circumstances in which the cells will be made available for this purpose, and how the cells will be operated. So, in many respects, we are already well down the road towards implementation while this debate proceeds. This is not unusual, of course. The Department of Corrections has been forecast to run out of baseline beds early next year, so there is an immediate issue around prisoner accommodation and public safety. We are in this situation because prisoner numbers swelled under the previous Labour Government, from about 5,000 in 1996 to 8,400 now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EChanges in New Zealand\u2019s criminal justice policy in the past decade have been extraordinarily rapid and this rapid change is set to continue. But another facet of this increase in the prison muster is of note. From 1997 to 2007, although the number of those sentenced to prison increased by 37 percent, those remanded into custody increased by a staggering 214 percent. This bill is an attempt to do something about housing those prisoners and to do it quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe know that this bill fits into the context of a range of other measures that are being taken to address prison population pressures, including approval for extended double-bunking at five prisons. However, there is some uncertainty about the ability to access the additional double-bunked capacity, which may mean there may be insufficient accommodation for prisoners from June 2010. It is estimated that a further 5,000 beds will be needed by 2018. One of the more controversial operations has been the proposal to establish a 60-bed container unit at Rimutaka Prison. This is the first such project of its kind in New Zealand, and the emphasis has been on the fact that it is cheaper and faster to construct than facilities for a new prison. We in the M\u0101ori Party are not convinced as to whether the recycled container solution is an effective solution to the overarching issue of prison numbers, but we will leave that and the double-bunking issue for another time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s debate is basically the option of last resort. The proposal is that once the regional capacity at police jails is exhausted, court cells will be used to accommodate overflow prisoners. Although there are currently 10 blocks of court cells, some 101 cells that have been gazetted as parts of prisons, the Resource Management Act prevents them from being used for the overnight accommodation of prisoners. The approval sought in this bill is to amend the Corrections Act so that the requirements of section 9 of the Resource Management Act do not apply to the detention of prisoners in court cellblocks. In effect, this means that where there is an acute shortage of prison accommodation, court cells can be used to accommodate overflow prisoners without undue delay or cost. The M\u0101ori Party is willing to give begrudging support to this bill, to basically ensure that there is short-gap inmate accommodation in place for prisons to access if there is no other facility available. The last thing we want in prisons is overcrowding, triple-bunking, or for our prisons to be under any more stress than is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EBut there is an important rider that we place on our support. The Associate Minister of Corrections, Dr Sharples, raised during the Committee stage the issue of safety and spoke of some break-outs from court cells in the past. He spoke from his wide experience of some 35 years of working in the prisons and courts, but he made it clear that the M\u0101ori Party is supporting this bill as a response to the crisis over prison cell shortages. We recall that more than half of the most serious prison escapes in the 2006 financial year were made from court cells. In that year, six of the 11 break-outs took place from courts throughout the country. In one of the more embarrassing cases, two remand prisoners escaped by breaking through the ceiling of their cell. In another case, an inmate was just 20 minutes into a 9-month prison sentence for burglary, when he escaped from a holding cell at Waipukurau District Court. Concern has been raised about prisoner deaths while in custody in court cells, given they are multiple occupancy. There are some real issues around public safety that may fall out of this new proposal, which I trust the Minister will give attention to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAnother key issue is the one around the emotional and physical safety of prisoners located in cells. The investigation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Liam John Ashley reported that Liam, a 17-year-old teenager, had been held in a court cell with adult prisoners for the whole of the day on which he received his fatal injuries. Action for Children and Youth Aotearoa, a coalition of non-governmental organisations and individuals interested in children\u2019s rights, drew on this situation to petition the Law and Order Committee about the Department of Corrections. I draw the attention of the House to that recommendation, namely that the department should ensure that when prisoners under 18 years of age are moved to court cells, either the department or the police ensure that they are kept separate from adult prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere is, however, a much bigger debate that needs to be held in this House, which forms the broader context for this bill on the use of court cells for prisoner accommodation. It is the urgent need to comprehensively review the criminal justice system, and particularly the high levels of incarceration\u2014specifically of M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EMany of the speakers before me have referred to the fact that the Vote Corrections budget continues to escalate as a result of prison being the priority response to offending by both the previous and current Governments. The total appropriations for the Department of Corrections have increased by $368.731 million, or 33.54 percent, since last year. The total vote is now over $1.5 billion per year. This is a substantial increase, given the context of the world\u2019s deepest recession in at least 60 years. We are aware that Treasury projections for Vote Corrections 2020 are a massive $2 billion per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere are fiscal reasons why we need to review the overpopulation of our prisons. But there is a far greater moral and ethical issue about the rising trends in prison populations. In 2007 the Ombudsman, Mel Smith, carried out an investigation into issues involving the criminal justice sector. His report suggested a royal commission of inquiry should be called to undertake a comprehensive review of the criminal justice system. The overrepresentation of M\u0101ori should be an area of significant focus of any commission of inquiry. One of the reasons why the Ombudsman made the suggestion for a commission of inquiry is that it will allow an opportunity to stop and reflect on why the punitive treadmill seems to grow and pick up speed. It is hoped to find constructive ways to slow it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party believes that crime prevention needs to be looked at in a different way\u2014holistically\u2014to try to change contextual factors as well as the outcomes. A kaupapa M\u0101ori justice strategy will be a starting point for doing things differently\u2014doing things from a M\u0101ori values base of restoring and transforming. The idea is to have a strategy that will address practical things that wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, marae, communities, organisations, and institutions can do to get going with the doing of creating alternatives to police, courts, and the prison system. The M\u0101ori Party supports the good work that the Associate Minister of Corrections has been doing to this end. We will, as we said earlier, give begrudging support to this legislation to use court cells as an emergency stopgap measure until the more enduring solution is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd6130098bd545fc900c1374fb3f03e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd6130098bd545fc900c1374fb3f03e6\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I begin by pointing out some of the comments that Mr Ardern made earlier. I think that the noise from his tractor has impaired his hearing in some way, because he has not really been listening during the course of the debate. One thing he continues to say, and a number of National members continue to say, along with a few other members in the House, is with regard to Labour\u2019s track record for law and order over the last 9 years. It is one of their catchcries. They like to say what Labour did in 9 long years. Well, what we did was reduce crime. They point out, however, that there was an increase in violent crime, mostly family crime\u2014domestic violence. I point out that Labour members on this side of the House will not apologise for an increase in reporting family violence during the 9 years that Labour was in Government; we will not apologise for that. The fact that there was an increase in reporting family violence is due, as far as we are concerned, to the fact that we did as much as we could to help women in violent situations. The fact that there was a high level of reporting says a lot about what the previous Labour Government did, and we will not apologise for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI point out to Mr Ardern and his colleagues that since the National Government has been in office we have seen a real increase in crime. It has been a real increase, not just a perception that a few members of the House have decided to put out there. This increase has been recorded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Garrett, who never yells in the House, that for his sake I will look at the New Zealand Herald and also at a press release put out by the university that gives information on the fact there has been an increase in crime since the National Government came into power. We all know there is a correlation between poverty, unemployment, and crime. This Government has done nothing to solve the problems around unemployment and poverty. In fact, all it has done is to implement policies that do nothing to help those who are the most vulnerable, and, therefore, we are seeing an increase in crime. The reason this Government is putting this bill through, as we have pointed out on a number of occasions throughout this debate, is that it is in crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMr Cosgrove pointed out something earlier that is a little bit concerning and would be concerning to the public. Why does National need to push this bill through before Christmas? We know there is something like 800 beds available in prisons at the moment. So why is there such a push to get this bill through\u2014all of a sudden\u2014before we hit Christmas? What is concerning to us is that the Government has access to forecasted numbers; we do not. So is it anticipating an even steeper increase in crime over the Christmas period? Is that the reason for getting this bill through, to cope with the sheer numbers of prisoners whom it will not have the capacity to hold in the actual prisons, and who will need to be held in court cells? If so, the Government needs to take responsibility for that. Crime rises in line with poverty and unemployment, and unfortunately it looks like we will possibly see an increase in crime during what should be our festive season. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAn issue that has come up over and over again in this debate concerns the security guards who are in the court cells. It has been pointed out that they are not trained prison officers; they are security guards in the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8107d8ff18845ada907e4c9e058dace\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224faa95c4b3014ceb9fa925b104961e5e\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022443288bd4fd5448f90877e968f758d67\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Emissions Compared with 2008 Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227107b51c2fa94ad584b5c1b770d77c89\u0022\u003E1. Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Will the passing yesterday of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill result in New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions going up or down between now and 2050 compared to the original emissions trading scheme passed in 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e35de6d2b64cc483e0fb0e8535871a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e35de6d2b64cc483e0fb0e8535871a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The longer we go out, the less certainty there is with the figures. However, I want to go quite specifically through the advice. In the period from 2008 to 2012 the recessionary measures taken to halve the price effect of the scheme on power and petrol increases will reduce the incentive to reduce emissions, so that results in slightly higher projected emissions for New Zealand in 2012. In the period 2012 to 2018 the changes will do more to reduce emissions. This is because there is a significantly lesser allocation to industry and a stronger price signal to reduce emissions. So for the first decade the overall changes in our moderated emissions trading scheme will actually result in lower New Zealand emissions than the existing scheme. Beyond 2018 the key difference between the schemes is in the phase-out rate and the production-based allocations. There is no doubt that beyond that period the amended scheme would result in higher emissions for New Zealand, because it would export emissions from those intensive industries offshore. So, although emissions in New Zealand might be less, all we would simply do is to produce those products elsewhere on the globe, and actually make the global problem worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d80a40732fb41c094784c97fe325b5a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will he advise the Prime Minister to go to Copenhagen and explain to Barack Obama and all the other world leaders why New Zealand has just passed a law that, as the Minister has just told the House, will result in New Zealand increasing its emissions, or will he be too ashamed to front up to that meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217873d0f714e4ba2ad1bb76de1f03b22\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This scheme will, in the first 10 years, reduce emissions more than the existing scheme. But I would make three further points, in light of the comparison with the United States. Firstly, the target that we are taking to the Copenhagen negotiations is significantly stronger than that offered by the United States. [Interruption] It is a matter of fact. Secondly, I would also note that we now have a settled emissions trading scheme, which will be the first outside of Europe, to be put in place on 1 July next year. Thirdly, the one area of concern in going to Copenhagen is explaining why our emissions have gone up by 24 percent since 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab0d442cf654b8fa7f70befdc7e4f5b\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What official advice has the Minister received on the comparison between the free allocations to industry in the first decade of the scheme supported by the Greens, and in the amended scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f98ac944194892b44b86995a42a56f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that under the scheme supported by the Green Party, the free allocation to industry in the first decade was 135 million units. Under the new scheme industry will receive just 69 million units for the same period. This is because there is a lesser allocation to industry, with some companies getting only 60 percent or none, and because of the phase-out beginning in 2013, 5 years earlier. The Greens should be honest and openly acknowledge that in the first decade of the scheme it is actually more efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c50c4da3f047ca95f046684abe791e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Clearly, in stating that the Greens should be honest, the Minister was assuming that we were being dishonest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228479b6e8cf5c4f319389e7321b6d78d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e0bc354b027426ba1d70bc95bf1d42c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: That is unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c516b17f484d4c3ea654708d611df007\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. I do not think the Minister needs to go down that track, and I do not believe he was in any way impugning the honesty of the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4733fd5ba534ee09d5b2ca408da51ab\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment had it wrong when she said that Parliament should vote against his emissions trading scheme because \u201CIn its current form, the bill virtually guarantees that the ETS will not achieve its stated goal of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3fe3cbbed2241eab72f9799bf04adf4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I also note that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment advised Parliament not to vote for the previous emissions trading scheme, and I note that the Green Party ignored that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7152ef95524414807c17abfce96c07\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that his own ministry could not tell a select committee today when it expects New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions to decrease; and is it not the reality that following the passage of his moderated emissions trading scheme, the only way that New Zealand will be able to meet its 2020 pollution reduction targets is through what we might call a modified Jacqui Dean solution: to buy them from offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b2af1b635f413f988f6cca05d823af\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to project all of the moving parts that affect New Zealand\u2019s future emissions profile. We do not know for sure the price of carbon into the future. We do not know for sure what the international rules are going to be beyond 2013, and I note that despite repeated questioning when Mr David Parker was the Minister, he could not give exact numbers on when New Zealand\u2019s emissions would decline. What I will say is that the advice is that with the emissions trading scheme that the Government has passed, in 2020 New Zealand can expect its emissions to be 10 million tonnes fewer as a consequence of that scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2594e8e1ba45d29f519d0013bc1e6b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that even with the advice he has provided today, after 2018, because the phase-out rate is lower, we will see a significant increase in New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions over the emissions we would have seen under the old emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdddc6b5d6a043a2b6c82eaa8b5150d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I make two points in response. The first is that it is this Government\u2019s policy that we do not simply want to reduce emissions by closing down New Zealand Steel or our smelter, sending that industry offshore, and clapping our hands with joy that our emissions have gone down, only for them to occur somewhere else on the globe. That makes no sense. The second point is in respect of the 1.3 percent phase-out rate. This Government has been quite open that that will be regularly reviewed, so that it is in line with the rate of our major trading partners. We would like to phase out more quickly; that will depend on ensuring that other countries also do so, consistent with this Government\u2019s policy of New Zealand doing its fair share.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab050fc8cc0846c8bbbe5a61d5bf454c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question specifically addressed the 2018 to 2050 period. It specifically asked whether New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions would increase during that period, as a result of this change in the legislation. The Minister did not answer, or attempt to answer, that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d8422969d542c48df6820c6ccc5c6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In fairness to the honourable member Nick Smith, as I listened to the Minister\u2019s answer it was perfectly clear to me what he was saying. It is possible that that might be the case, but he was arguing that there was not much sense in saying that is bad if doing the opposite caused more emissions elsewhere. He just gave a different kind of answer from the one the member may have wanted, but it was perfectly clear to me what the Minister\u2019s answer was to the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05ad530febe44ae8e8d6aa3b637f460\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that after 2018 we will have a much higher level of free allocation given to industry and agriculture in all sectors, and, as a result of that higher level of free allocation, we will have higher debt on the Government books and increased greenhouse emissions in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bedff91ffb3848558fe740ec6ca58728\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not correct and I will explain why. Under the existing Labour scheme, in 2018 a business like the Bluff smelter would receive a 90 percent allocation and would have to pay for 10 percent. Under the changed scheme, in that year the smelter will be required to pay 18 percent; that is, it will get an allocation of 82 percent. Then, in each year after that, there was the notion of that reducing out at a rate of 8 percent per year. None of the commentators believe that is realistic, and even in the discussions I had with Labour during our talks to try to get a consensus, nobody assumed that that 8 percent phase-out rate in the existing scheme would be able to be sustained 10 years hence. I remind the member that it is hard enough to work out the rules in climate change policy for the next 10 years, let alone to make predictions beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022884f4168678d42e4b0462099a7d35f72\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that by taking the three different periods the Minister identified in his very long answer\u2014that is, 2008 to 2012, 2012 to 2018, and 2018 to 2050\u2014and putting them all together, rather than splitting them up, overall New Zealand will have higher greenhouse emissions under his emissions trading scheme than under the old emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228557756fa6bc4836b6d8151a5a6d3fa6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to ignore the fact that this is a global problem. The atmosphere does not know whether the emissions come from New Zealand or some other country. The Government side of the House makes no apologies for not wanting a policy that would simply export industry offshore, do nothing for the environment, and cost hard-working New Zealanders their jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225258c4d704834287b440d5200a3854bf\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Again, the question was quite specific about New Zealand\u2019s emissions. The Minister may have a point about global emissions. That is fine, but I asked specifically about New Zealand\u2019s emissions. The Minister did not answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286df65ee64564c95a9d13ba06016cd7e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The questioner started his question by saying \u201CIs it not \u2026\u201D, and then he put a proposition. What he got from the Minister was a response to the proposition, and that is perfectly reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e863835bf13468996bb49ef5ef14d32\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246dac18dba33475e87fdbc049adfe9b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think I need to hear further on this. I hear the point the member is making. It is fair enough; the Minister did not specifically answer that question. Yet in his answer was an implication that yes, that is possible, and I would imagine that any intelligent person who was listening to the answer would have picked that up from the answer. The Minister went on to explain why he and his Government see that as not being the crucial issue. I do not think there is much point in my trying to force him to give a more precise answer along the lines the member wants to hear. The member certainly got an acknowledgment of the point he was making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eac494d583c45a8a50fea2b2b8f1084\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister know that the independent expert advice received by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, when it considered his moderated emissions trading scheme, was that there is simply no evidence or analysis available to support his contention that the massive subsidies now available to industry under that scheme are actually targeted at industry likely to move offshore; if so, when will he stop repeating the falsehood that his moderated emissions trading scheme will save any Kiwi jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b425f5248b99499d9242ecf0b67a8e97\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member should read the very comprehensive economic analysis by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research and Infometrics. That report said that New Zealand suffers very great competitive risk around emissions-intensive industry. The second point I make to the member is that if he wants to call allocations subsidies, it is interesting to note that when Mr Parker was asked a question by Jeanette Fitzsimons about whether allocations were subsidies, he said that they were not subsidies. It seems an odd contradiction that when Labour makes allocations they are not subsidies, but when National makes allocations they are. I would love Labour to explain that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e18b63e1f354269abada7c839348bc7\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: To the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce6678cb87b427b9f64c2b56f9f2105\u0022\u003EHon George Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: Hawaii Five-O.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5c7770f2554622a92d7cda5f0c9231\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228675784767e94f48872ad6965d87d5b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask the member to please ask his question. [Interruption] That is not acceptable. The member should not worry about those kinds of interjections. I ask him to just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f29dbddfb1041b8987034a072e33fc3\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is he willing to assist New Zealanders\u2019 understanding of this Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme by asking the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research to explain the adjustments that it has made to the raw data to produce a warming trend for New Zealand for 156 years of our history, when its own raw data in order show New Zealand\u2019s temperature to be stable; if he is not prepared to ask for that explanation, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7cb00e708f461c8282d505a33a42fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Only as recently as last Friday, I think, Kevin Hague and I attended a Cawthron Institute lecture by David Wratt about climate change science. What Dr Wratt has consistently said is that because New Zealand is surrounded by oceans, all the modelling indicates that the temperature impacts of climate change are most likely to be less for New Zealand than for other parts of the globe. I would welcome the opportunity, not just for the sake of Mr Hide but for that of all members of the House, to invite the chief climate change scientist from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research to address members, so that we can all be better informed on climate change science. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268078cad5ebe4a13ae924ead053b1bd4\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is very kind, and I will take the member up on that offer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a9299a36ea4695942558b8f6dda9e8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order should be terse and to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f0688ff8be549638c2215a2cf334690\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: My question asked whether the Minister for Climate Change Issues will assist our understanding by asking the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research to explain why its data have been adjusted to show a different result from what the raw data show\u2014yes or no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fab428db50a3493b84ed4b7b2252eed9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may not have specific responsibility for a scientific organisation in New Zealand. It may be the responsibility of the Minister, and it is up to the Minister to tell us that if it is the case. I ask him, if it is within his responsibility, to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea9c82676ec43e3b9a38f34042a0f50\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I would be happy to have the chief scientist from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research come to the House and answer that technical question directly as a consequence of having a forum with members, and I think the member will find that to be very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022749f7dcf7306467ca7d79766e75a0a7a\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document by the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition about the adjustments that the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research has made to the raw data to show a warming trend, when, in fact, none is shown. It is dated 25 November 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fdb043a29c542aabda4709383118658\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ece23d3c9a554946961b69e9a041e099\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, Minister\u2014Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc04dfce22a41828204bb8105e67bff\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022077471fb08de44718befb147d6466ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022077471fb08de44718befb147d6466ffb\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, although when you love your job as much as I do, you can occasionally get a little overexcited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e756594c8144bd8b4873a951c79b902\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she consider the efforts of the Every Child Counts organisation to establish an all-party parliamentary group for children to build awareness of and a commitment to policies for children as \u201Ca whole bunch of chit-chat that gets nowhere\u201D, as she claimed in Parliament yesterday, and has she told that organisation it is wasting its time even trying to get National to work with other political parties here in Parliament on policies that tackle issues like child poverty in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b596dd3958f414ba00d6519e5926306\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I actually admire the organisation and think that it does a good job in what it is doing. There have been many discussions around this place for quite some time about a cross-party discussion on child abuse and neglect. I notice that the previous Government did not actually get one up and running. As I stated yesterday, and I will state it again, I think it is about the results and the things that are put in place. That is what will make a true difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df144396bdd04d21ac88a383f9005e51\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Will she dismiss the plan of action developed by the Every Child Counts summit on children held in September, which brought together community leaders, Barnados, Plunket, Save the Children, Unicef, etc., representing about 6,500 supporters and organisations as \u201Cchit-chat\u201D\u2014a lot of talk and no action\u2014or will she do what they have requested and work with all parties in this Parliament, who do care about kids, on something that Labour, when in Government, did not walk away from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1417e3dd80440aaac7949ccb98de6c7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think it would be helpful to clarify that the words \u201Cchit-chat\u201D\u2014all talk and no action\u2014were actually directed at the Opposition, and not at Every Child Counts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9fbbef3dcd04c8fbafde25f0563bc5d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Hansard of the Minister\u2019s answer to my question yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46f9ea3fc7a405db90b2ccd4947c6f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is outside the ruling I have made. That is readily available to the House anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ae77f1b41f443087b2b8e4657036b4\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has she had any chit-chat with the Prime Minister about his claim that the number of New Zealanders now on the sickness benefit is only slightly higher than it was a year ago; did she point out to him that the number went up by almost 10,000 since he became the Prime Minister, and that the Government\u2019s policies are only shifting people from one benefit to another?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edf8a0fbaaf4ec2864f57cd3aa1320d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We have had many discussions with the Prime Minister on welfare reform, where we are going with it, and how we close some of those tunnels between benefits. We are not hiding the numbers like the previous Government, under which it really was a succession from the unemployment benefit, to the sickness benefit, to the invalids benefit, which we will simply not put up with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced63d43f3534281858d10cd80af0433\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Has she had any conversation with the Prime Minister about the failure of her Restart package, given that it is now helping fewer than 1,000 New Zealanders, even though unemployment numbers are still increasing; if so, is the reason she has failed to make effective changes to the scheme a result of those conversations just being chit-chat that have clearly got her nowhere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225381d2c0246641f489fd0a3afdf19741\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yet again, I want to clarify that it is the Opposition that is prone to chit-chat and no real action. The member does not understand that the number of people receiving the unemployment benefit has gone down for 7 weeks in a row; it has gone down. Those who were eligible for Restart needed to be eligible through the welfare system. That is how it was set up. It was successful. I am certainly not undermining the more than 5,500 people who received access to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7fb21aa98c43b2a75cc106b49850c6\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: What justification can she give for her decision to make cuts to the training incentive allowance, barring domestic purposes beneficiaries from receiving the allowance to help with tertiary study, and her decision to prevent domestic purposes beneficiaries from being eligible for Community Max; and how can these decisions be reconciled with her statement regarding solo mothers that she \u201Cwill back those women into work and meaningful employment every time.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d55a80a74e4cf5a74b6403042ab03a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Just to clarify, there are women who are on the domestic purposes benefit who are on the Community Max programme. Any women on the domestic purposes benefit can move on to the unemployment benefit and be eligible to go on the Community Max project. It is as simple as that. They would get the same amount of money, and they can make that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022860cee76c2414400bcb383d1d3e91d14\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Professional Development in Information and Communication Technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83340f897064ebe993bbc88697d093c\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made about information and communication technologies professional development in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3dcc9e7f9a4cb2b3facc8929e2496d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3dcc9e7f9a4cb2b3facc8929e2496d\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E More good news. Today the Government announced that we are investing $10.8 million in a 3-year programme to support teachers to use digital technology. From next year 257 schools\u2014members opposite do not like this\u2014will join this major information and communication technology initiative. It will support teachers with the skills, the knowledge, and the confidence they need to get the benefits from information and communication technology and support student learning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7092e049fba4b43a963de88e0aa8228\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: How does the announcement complement other work being done by the Government in the education sector to help schools with digital technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632cec364775436796a56630509537b1\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This investment supports the Government\u2019s $150 million commitment to make our schools broadband-ready, to ensure that our children are at the centre of the digital world. Earlier in the year, I announced a round of school network upgrades, and I will very shortly announce a further larger round to ensure that our schools\u2019 infrastructure is ready for ultra-fast broadband. The announcement today will ensure that more teachers are ready and able to take advantage of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8a25fe437d499589e178a95ad95173\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Does her announcement today indicate that she is now ranking information and communication technology skills as being more important than science, social studies, music, and art in primary schools, because she has totally cut the funding for professional development next year in primary schools for all of those subjects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e20bd58da604c71b5d1d58ee0f7dc69\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not cut any funding for professional development in primary schools. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e69783804b4c71a7ed962a011705b8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member who asked the question has indicated that he could not hear the end of the answer. I invite the Minister to repeat the answer, and I ask members to be a little more reasonable in their interjection; it has been fairly noisy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480eafc623624d8f8b0e6b83228a9910\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not cut professional development in primary schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225917b815f65d405c8b83f39e9cdd5bb1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Does cutting the money that goes to universities that pay the advisers who go to primary schools not count as a cut to primary schools, in that Minister\u2019s opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227540b191d7814ac0a61e091ad3592e42\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Let me explain in words of one syllable so that the member can understand. We have taken the same amount of money that the Ministry of Education contracts for professional advice and we have refocused it on literary and numeracy in order to support the national standards. The sector asked for support for the introduction of the national standards, and that is what this Government has provided. There are no cuts to what is provided; it is the same amount of money but refocused on literacy and numeracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1910c61e39445395ee7f382ec84020\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I now have a real problem. I know that you do not like people using a point of order to debate, but this Minister has tabled in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1e6fdb83be4c92b2b99e3b77290045\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227875fa1f05a041d09775b2e6c53462cd\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 25 percent cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f066f520e214b29b7da86d1c98a12b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet! I am not sure what is wrong with that member\u2019s eyes. The member may not have liked the answer but he cannot litigate it by way of a point of order. He can ask further questions. I heard the question he asked and the answer the Minister gave. It was very obvious to me where the difference was arising between the question and the answer. It should not take him much thought to work out which supplementary questions to ask, if he wants to uncover more about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf5eee3456d4ca98297097600369f48\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister announce or include in her Budget documentation a 25 percent cut in professional development going into contracts for professional development, which go to primary schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aebbf21ccbdb4349aa670455c32a8f35\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Some changes were made to professional development around early childhood education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c8d7bcaf0f541018e7ae6f967a0458a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member\u2019s answer was to do with early childhood education. It was a very specific question about primary education and the 25 percent cut she announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c07542142a84d85833c671ae1a8928f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the point the member makes and I ask the Minister to answer in respect of primary schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d5778ff2234e889d2d39f2d3493b25\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, it\u2019s in two Budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653135a2b7d0441d8f53e3baa57e992d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point raised by the Hon Trevor Mallard is a reasonable one. He asked a question about professional development in primary schools, which is what the primary question was about. The Minister answered in respect of early childhood education, which is not what the primary question was about. I therefore think it is reasonable\u2014and I warn the Leader of the House that I am ruling on this matter\u2014for the Minister to answer that. If she does not have that specific information, that is fair enough, but she avoided the question by commenting in respect of early childhood education. I think the member has a legitimate grievance and I ask the Minister to reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf1cb84408e463a92dcfe246f5d0aab\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It may have been that you did not pick up that the member asked the Minister whether there had been cuts to the tertiary education budget, and then he specified what it was and asserted that it had some relationship with the primary education sector. The Minister gave an answer about what was changed in that Budget, and I think it should stand as perfectly reasonable. The member cannot confuse a whole lot of things together, then somehow expect a Minister to unpick them in a very short answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220116fa59010f49319ccaee81d703ab64\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf453050e079413c8dbc8eb0ac3f5c16\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any assistance. I have indulged the Leader of the House. The Minister is perfectly capable of answering the question asked. It is directly related to the primary question. From what the Leader of the House has just implied by way of his point of order, he has assumed an answer from what the Minister said. There is no problem, therefore, in the Minister giving the House the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022105d2dce3723418d8b43681823073154\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the figures in front of me but I am happy to provide them to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c724790903449db66b4f0be91bcef9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: How can she rely on the advice she has received on professional development in schools, in light of her statement yesterday that enrolment schemes in schools neighbouring Aorangi School would have to be redone, something that cannot occur before term 1 next year\u2014or did she just make that up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267be65cf3b91490b90f611b98454fb1e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The primary question actually related to information and communication technologies professional development in schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c46a9154024e7f8c854bedd640eb01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister is making a fair point. I ask the member to bring her question within the scope of the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250614035175455e864c870dd3dbb3e0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: How can she rely on advice that she has received on professional development in schools, in light of statements she made yesterday that have proven to be incorrect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bf8e8c855c45cba427b27b1e4f8224\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I did not make incorrect statements yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732069c0983243b1bb7ab057e4ca0c8b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bdfd7721b5544e7869e3aaed6bddc4a\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d3dc3b69074d00afa31d61e9ad8b39\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon. If members were a little more reasonable with interjections I would hear when members call. I do apologise to Rahui Katene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229159eb2eb58b4a3cadc9cb3876a05b19\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What initiatives are being advanced to develop digital literacy for M\u0101ori, to ensure that the flow-on benefits of adopting new technologies are also extended to M\u0101ori and wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a1a958489e4a699f71a4b970823c7c\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: If the member looks through the list of schools involved, she will see that a number of schools with M\u0101ori pupils are involved in this initiative. But we are very conscious of the importance of broadband to, particularly, small, rural M\u0101ori immersion schools, and we are working with the M\u0101ori Party to ensure that they are included in the rural broadband roll-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e515d5a6f23848c49f31a9295f329a60\u0022\u003EClimate Change, Copenhagen Conference\u2014Prime Minister\u2019s Attendance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1eb67d7c7a458ea73cd6f1ef90b91a\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why is he not going to the Copenhagen conference like most other world leaders are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224dab55a1617642ddbb8d70733645720b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dab55a1617642ddbb8d70733645720b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: The member\u2019s assertion is incorrect. It is not true that most of the world\u2019s leaders are going to the Copenhagen conference. The Prime Minister has previously stated that there is a 95 percent chance that he will not go to Copenhagen for that conference. That is because he is satisfied that the Minister for Climate Change Issues, the Hon Nick Smith, and the Associate Minister for Climate Change Issues (International Negotiations), the Hon Tim Groser, are more than capable of representing New Zealand\u2019s position at the conference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eedbde6b81a943ee90aa78466bdd7e83\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the Secretary-General of the United Nations that President Obama\u2019s attendance at Copenhagen, announced today, will help ensure an agreement; if so, is he not attending because, as he has recently said, he is \u201Cquite relaxed\u201D about the threat of climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f9fcb5a0be4b9499e891ee8b333383\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The United States\u2019 position on climate change and whatever commitments it may be prepared to offer at Copenhagen are, of course, very, very important. I point out to the member, though, that President Obama will be in Copenhagen about 1 week before the conference starts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0064a2c0ef45c9989a130f60b5e36d\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: This is the diary secretary for Mr Obama about to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a361dc98d1468d9ecf6e0cf9c52805\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Tremain for that useful contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2a29632e194a3bb0a521f8289b7d13\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will sit down. I will not tolerate interjections with microphones open like that; it is simply not acceptable. I ask the member not to do that and I invite him to ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022860576621e934d048b6e77e0f78a2d01\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I accept your ruling immediately\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784744452e9c4636b8a8ac8c3cddcffa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b205202aa0a24da18a6d1024964256d3\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac62b32a2d241d4bda75b50f5b79a7e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what issue of order the member is raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153c7dc61c1d464fba35ee3ab9f76053\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I wanted to record that I was responding to an interjection myself when I was referred to as the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46c3f2a7547497a8ac54262315aa1e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now resume his seat. The member will not argue with the Speaker if he wishes to remain in the Chamber for this sitting day, which may go on for a while. I recommend to the member that if someone interjects while his microphone is open and he is asking a question, he should just ignore it because no one else can hear it. It is an unfair advantage to the member to use an open microphone in that way. I invite him to ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b11ab77c014fa78f5befd850d0cdae\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I presume the same rule will apply to members of the Government when they are answering a question and responding to an interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234aebc1ebe2d4a9485fd3cacd014bd83\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members will notice that when Ministers are not provoked by the question being asked, I am pretty tough when they start to climb into the Opposition. Anyone who thinks that I, as Speaker, am favouring the Government is not, I believe, seeing the situation properly, at all. I am sure that plenty of members in the Government are not terribly happy with the way the Speaker insists on some of them answering questions and stops them in mid-flight. So I suggest to the Hon David Parker that a little more discretion and courtesy would be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282fecaf159154c30824ffe77b31a7a13\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228100c3f212894a0e97f1c4583d82c666\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am still on my feet, and it had better be a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d57ca688041401c987324b8d0222516\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is, and it is an important one. I would like you to reflect on what you have just told the House. What you have said is that my colleague cannot respond to an interjection through his open microphone but Ministers can if they are provoked. I think that that is unfair and unbalanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7cab2ddf5d844d7a3e9e4b231b43fa3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What I was actually referring to was when Ministers are provoked in a question. If the member refers back to a supplementary question asked by his own colleague, just a short while ago in this sitting, he will recall that his colleague Charles Chauvel implied that the Minister had not been telling the truth. I let it go\u2014I did not interrupt. But it was a very provocative question. Ministers receiving a provocative question like that are perfectly at liberty to give as good as they get. That has always been the ebb and flow of this House. We will not waste further time on this. I invite Charles Chauvel to ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac0cf5c567f4848bc5287f2db77bc4f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Minister of Foreign Affairs planning to use the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting merely as an opportunity to \u201Ccompare notes\u201D on climate change negotiations when the Secretary-General of the United Nations, the Danish Prime Minister, and the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth are attending the meeting to seek a \u201Cstrong political statement\u201D on climate change ahead of the Copenhagen summit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204df49ea2fdb4d1b9c7e4fa769a8212c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, everything that might be concluded by way of agreement starts with a comparison of one country\u2019s position with another\u2019s. That is an appropriate role for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9d5d5d8c7d4d5da577b0ae8de4d59a\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister for Climate Change Issues and the Associate Minister for Climate Change Issues (International Negotiations) go to Copenhagen with their heads held high, when his Government voted yesterday against legislating for binding emissions targets and is teaming up, in international climate change negotiations, with major polluters against the small Island States, to whom we generally pretend friendship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de62a428a6a2456bad17a0fb1883eae8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister would not accept the assertion that the member implies in his question. He asks how the trade Minister and the climate change negotiations Minister, who is one and the same person, can hold his head up at the conference. What the Minister can say is that New Zealand has set targets. We do have an \u201Call gases, all sectors\u201D emissions trading scheme, and we are doing our bit to solve a worldwide problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022188d53e1c34b45659a5840311a57937f\u0022\u003ELegal Aid\u2014Graeme Burton\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1e0d15e92b42a09c17aff72a31919d\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: How much, if anything, did the taxpayer pay in legal aid for Graeme Burton to defend the recent charge of attempted murder, for which he was found guilty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022666e280afb074ffeac9afe0b1e7fde9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022666e280afb074ffeac9afe0b1e7fde9e\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Acting Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised by the Legal Services Agency that the amount paid to date in relation to Mr Burton\u2019s legal aid file is $12,342.50. That amount includes lawyers\u2019 fees and other relevant disbursements that have been approved to date. Although the trial has concluded, Mr Burton has yet to be sentenced. The final cost of services is not yet known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2d71636f74400a86a0a48ab0640704\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that regardless of the outcome of the trial and, indeed, the sentencing, Mr Burton will be in prison for at least the next 25 years in any case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205e64c5e3834d549951703c95cc19ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I urge caution in this area, because, as I understand the situation, Graeme Burton has not yet been sentenced, and I do not think it is appropriate for this House to be raising issues in respect of that matter. I do not want to take a supplementary question off the member; if he likes he can ask a different supplementary question. I ask him to be very careful about the fact that this particular convicted person has not yet been sentenced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d9e3feefa64f34a9c41e6e80069031\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is true, and that was why the question was so carefully framed. It was making a point about the sentence that Mr Burton is already serving. He is already in prison for 25 years. That was the point that my colleague Mr David Garrett was making. Mr Burton is serving 25 years in prison regardless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb0518d69c34a57ac29b1d98dcbe71e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is quite important. I will hear the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a26a5710a4449ca5dff93a810925fc\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I, unusually, have to agree with Rodney Hide. It was a carefully worded question, which did have \u201Cregardless of\u201D the sentence that is about to be imposed as part of it. I think the question was actually about the old sentence and the likelihood of parole. The Minister of Justice could probably say that he has no responsibility and does not want to comment, but I think the question should not be ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d1c192cdc04dea8036cc537b56140f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge the advice offered by colleagues, but what troubles me is that we normally have to be very careful in referring to the past records of people who are before the courts. This case, at least, is beyond the basic conviction. We are at the point of sentencing, though. The dilemma I have is that, obviously, details of the convicted person\u2019s past are relevant to sentencing in respect of the conviction currently before the court. That is the dilemma I face on the matter. I ask the member to ask a supplementary question, being very careful of the fact that if there is undue reference to the past record, convictions, and sentencing of a person currently before the court, there is risk of argument that it may influence the court. I ask him to be very conscious of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b46cf44c5794caeb66fba0d4b896e33\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: I will simply ask a different question, to save any potential conflict. Does the Minister agree that every single dollar paid out in criminal legal aid is $1 less available for civil legal aid for such persons as those who are suffering from a leaky home that they cannot afford to fix?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaaad5102fd44163bbcd2cbd14301973\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I can understand that member\u2019s point of view. But I would say two things in response to it. First, it is the hallmark of a just society that everyone is entitled to a fair trial, regardless of conduct. The legal aid system provides for a fair trial regardless of what sort of person the court is dealing with. The second point is that\u2014and I am sure that the member, as an experienced barrister, would understand this\u2014legal aid quite often prevents defendants from acting for themselves. I am sure the member is aware of appalling cases where defendants have sought to cross-examine their victims, notwithstanding the restrictions contained in section 95 of the Evidence Act. So there is a very good reason why we have a legal aid system for criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1ab091f566d4cec9f33c120baf0df4d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002287c8603379f24a45801d193ab867e380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287c8603379f24a45801d193ab867e380\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that the Minister of Finance and the Associate Minister of Finance are away, I seek leave to hold over my question until the next day the Minister of Finance is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d014fdabff147139cd66903fdf06d7e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209fc1ff7595d494095d1ed42d5aa63e1\u0022\u003ERecession\u2014Rebuilding Economy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25b608e1f884712b38844ea34aa43da\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CIn order for that recovery to be sustainable we need improved competitiveness among our exporters and continued recovery in household savings\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad019c41255c4a66bfef49dd45abae6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad019c41255c4a66bfef49dd45abae6b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c500f2b0883f4a209aaffe25832ba0f7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister of Finance insist that New Zealand has the best monetary policy in the world when currency volatility makes exporting tougher for businesses than it should be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7205ad6311d4c52be73771d70c4160b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: There is no doubt that currency volatility is a challenge for many exporters. Export volumes have been stagnating for some time, but the real issue in respect of monetary policy and the effect on the currency is very much a reflection of the legacy that this Government inherited from a Government that made such waste of taxpayers\u2019 money during its years on the Treasury benches. Its spending in a 5-year period increased by over 45 percent, and New Zealanders wondered what they got for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b545f244e524d77bdb168e13462ddf4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister of Finance pretend that he is leading an export-led recovery when he is happy to sit on his hands as our exporters struggle against a volatile dollar, and interest rates driven by debt-fuelled consumption in the non-tradable sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a708d0c3e0496a8025b50c670220e6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is not sitting on its hands; this Government is dealing with the issues that really matter to the New Zealand economy. Primary amongst those issues is dealing with the 10 years of economic mismanagement by the previous Government, when it wasted some of the best years of New Zealand\u2019s economic performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e625e43992413892d428d35653242f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister of Finance maintain that New Zealand has the best monetary policy in the world when, despite our economy being small, we are one of the top 10 or 11 most traded currencies in the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa529d3274b43bba445f50fe329a9c9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister of Finance would be quite clear that many challenges face the New Zealand economy, but those challenges are made more difficult by the fact that during the 10 years of good economic times\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f7f8d432214ed9b22e759886d12c9e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has been devoting a fair part of his answers to attacking the previous Government, when the member\u2019s questions have not been particularly provocative. He has been asking about the issue of a volatile currency, which is not attacking the Government; it is raising an issue of relevance. My concern about that last answer was that it did not really answer the member\u2019s question, at all. I invite the Hon David Parker to ask his question again, just in case there was confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227adf57b27e934792be89bf61b891abdb\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister of Finance maintain that New Zealand has the best monetary policy in the world when, despite our being a small economy, we are one of the top 10 or 11 most traded currencies in the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee5455aa4aa4cd2b3b89fd9692c956f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister can maintain that position extremely well. He can maintain that position because this Government recognises that it has an important role to play in providing balanced economic policy, and ensuring that the Government\u2019s contribution to maintaining stability is a priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4f788b1d6d84f56b0730b8ddfea1ff2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00229798f70b7a8847a8af59b72167330ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229798f70b7a8847a8af59b72167330ab4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a formal statement from the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research and its scientist Dr David Wratt in response to the question from Mr Rodney Hide earlier that I did not have the answer to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a620f1e35424a60af5660c61aa97590\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e8238c0dbb04fdb9790fad913f26075\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cedad24cab401fbec568bc7fff4647\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What action is the Government taking to increase oil and gas exploration in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2a01010729345b5ba0679affdb05f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2a01010729345b5ba0679affdb05f64\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E In Budget 2009, $20 million was appropriated for seismic data acquisition over the next 3 years. This summer, the motor vessel Bergen Resolution will acquire seismic data in the Pegasus Basin, the Great South Basin, and either the Challenger Plateau and Bellona Trough area, or the outer Taranaki Basin and Northland East Slope Basin area. Petroleum exploration and investment companies will then have free access to the data to assess the considerable oil and gas potential of our frontier basins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220418aa8cf0ca4a309ca86018a1d33b0b\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What is the level of exploration in New Zealand waters this summer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a23e1c6cfd64f25af6de3b2c72d0bf5\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: This summer will be the largest exploration activity ever seen in New Zealand waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224123cfcf8de9454e95d4e6de0fc542d2\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s just the Minister on the beach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9469887cfe0472a98570a99cd27b972\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Seven offshore wells are being drilled, and thousands of kilometres of seismic data are being shot. In fact, New Zealand is ranked in the top 10 countries for offshore exploration wells. This year we have put in place a seismic data acquisition programme to continue the success. It is a good programme. I know that you do not like us responding to interjections, Mr Speaker, but I just want to say that in order that no one rushes to the beach to save the whales, I will be publishing the dates that I am on holiday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2a28245b7e415686f21abacbfb2aa7\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: What steps, if any, is the Minister taking to ensure that oil extracted in New Zealand territorial waters can be refined in New Zealand, as opposed to the current situation when it has to be sent to Australia for refining, doing nothing to support New Zealand\u2019s energy independence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc838e4875504b6687412e5a88fb3973\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Far from not supporting New Zealand\u2019s energy independence, I tell the member that as part of the International Energy Agency we have obligations to maintain a certain amount of oil stock. In the previous period of Government when that member\u2019s party was in office, many millions of dollars would have been spent on oil tickets to ensure that we were in a good position. That was a proper spend; it needed to be done. But as New Zealand recovers more oil and as we export more oil, the need for those tickets to be in place is a great deal less. The New Zealand Government does not have an interest in the refinery. It would be up to the private sector to look at the resource and decide whether this was the appropriate place to make investments for further oil refining in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f594459e25ec4ea9926e8b895a3407e2\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister familiar with the observations today of Andrew Falloon, the director of his coalition partner ACT\u2019s research unit, that he is \u201Cbooked for 8 nights in the Abel Tasman National Park before Minister Brownlee rips it up\u201D; and does this accurately reflect his Government\u2019s policy on mineral exploration in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc0427a9dd9418094612ad49bf7718e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No and no. What is more, I do not even know the guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e8fd0c796904121a1f51a34e6d328d4\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2da66a936140d69cb6ed2c9cbee89f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order has been called. I ask the Government backbenchers please to respect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b0816310c1f47e095d528bfad201dcf\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the comments by Andrew Falloon, director of the ACT Party research unit, saying that he is booked for 8 nights in the Abel Tasman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0b68a90bb84d25a9672799a74986fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the member carries on, where are these comments from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ade03fd234439e9f296225f849ed90\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It is from Mr Falloon\u2019s Facebook page. [Interruption] I do seek leave; it is a serious matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab7bcfe47d834c1f9b8a216bc7eed927\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think I have ruled out these blog sites, and what have you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f5747885054ecca844992c83463927\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Seeing that Mr Charles Chauvel is Mr Falloon\u2019s Facebook friend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d718b2c2094df2935e44482ee6c77e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not see how that is a point of order. The member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a503c71332354ed4a23ba8b4ab55f825\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Financial Benefits for M\u0101ori Families After 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa0ae119f2714b5aa4abdc548622090a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: What are the financial benefits from the changes to the emissions trading scheme for M\u0101ori families after 2013?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225f46d5c00e3340369faf808ce0d9690c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f46d5c00e3340369faf808ce0d9690c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E There are many benefits to M\u0101ori families. Post-2012 there will be thousands of M\u0101ori families in well-insulated and heated homes. This will have huge health benefits and will reduce their power bills, as well as reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Secondly, a large number of M\u0101ori families are beneficial owners of fishing quota, forestry, and agricultural assets, all of which will benefit financially from changes to the emissions trading scheme. Thirdly, M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented in the workforce of companies such as New Zealand Steel that are in the energy-intensive area, and without these changes those jobs would be at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43131e5bc1444928898c3de6b2501ab\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why, given that the Minister has singled out forestry, has he confined the concession to an elite number of tribes, and denied the rest of M\u0101oridom\u2014in fact, the entirety of the pre-1990 forestry sector? Why is he driving a wedge between people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b0a1b212ae64401831e07f3e8375f72\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The legislation that was passed by the previous Labour Government, including that member, put liabilities on all pre-1990 forest owners. Iwi came to me and strongly asked that those deforestation liabilities be removed for all of those forests. Our Government maintained the position that we would not do that. However, separate to that, there was the issue of quite specific Treaty settlements and information disclosure requirements. To avoid court proceedings, we came to a pragmatic and common-sense arrangement to allow those five iwi\u2014just the ones that were affected by that issue\u2014to plant trees on conservation land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43c9600f86f46499b2f2c104969be60\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister refer to potential liability, when his own letter to Mark Solomon said that the Crown does not recognise or accept that there is a liability of any nature?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c977958420c44014ac4f64e64dbba774\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Anybody who has been involved in legal settlements would know that one says in the base of them that settling the issue is not an acceptance of fault by the Crown. That is well-practised, and any member in this House with legal experience would know that it is a standard provision that is put in such settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf1cab278d24391b9d5055d04c118c7\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Did he advise the M\u0101ori Party before it agreed to support his emissions trading scheme that the Government would face higher fiscal costs as a result of having to cover increased emissions; what social services did he tell the M\u0101ori Party would be cut by the Government in order to meet those increased costs, and is that the reason why Hone Harawira sent a letter saying that he could not possibly vote for this measure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222af3e206dc5a42bf8e6472aed5ba802b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The premise that the member has based his question on is quite false. There is no extra cost; there is lesser income. There is lesser income from the emissions trading scheme, and the key element is that of the $50 billion that his colleague talks of, $40 billion is increased emissions trading scheme charges on farmers, and I am not sure how that helps M\u0101ori farming interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022892da7d320504cd18f7a83738c60e537\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. What reports has the Minister received criticising the agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, and are they consistent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f54a184212f4ee4badc796ea1cc0f02\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In the mainstream media the Opposition are saying: \u201CTaxpayers are being diddled for billions in a racially\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a98a3995e184fe3868095cd205a3377\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question very specifically asked what reports the Minister had received. You have ruled previously that the reports have to be actual reports, not newspaper clippings, which is what the Minister went straight to in his response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f77c3068245847b6a78bb4579ed79600\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Forgive me, but I am not sure of the basis of the member\u2019s point of order, at all. As I understand it, this is not about the tabling of a document. The Minister was responding to a question asked. The question asked what reports the Minister had received, and, as I understand it, that has been in order for a lengthy period of time. I do not understand the problem there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f83514a8b948b19e126dff5056e814\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In reports I have received the Opposition has said that \u201CTaxpayers are being diddled for billions in a racially preferenced deal in which the Government gave away everything and anything.\u201D That was in the mainstream media. But in the M\u0101ori media I have heard reports that the M\u0101ori Party got diddled for a few blankets and beads. These contradictory statements from Labour will cause racial disharmony. This Government is focused on bringing New Zealand together and addressing the issues. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205797d2c6de74aebbaf6b9d580b21cad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Hon Dr Nick Smith and the Hon Parekura Horomia to please show some respect for the fact that the Speaker has been on his feet for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061de155514245be843a142b1167187c\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Hon Shane Jones that the initiatives for M\u0101ori announced in the new emissions trading scheme will \u201Cprotect a narrow, privileged southern elite\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d6f7809a974106812ac31d1b54e694\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that in respect of the agreement we reached on forestry, there are a total of 178,398 beneficial owners, of which less than one-third are in the South Island. That statement is about as accurate as the claim by Labour that the agreement on forestry was worth $2 billion, when the officials\u2019 advice is that it is worth one-hundredth of that amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331bc3575e9c4f48b5f7bf4c8cbd4377\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a statement from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, dated yesterday, in which she states the amendments will pass much of the costs from polluters to taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed9038ef2eff4f3fbc91b1fb5cede69b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b53ac8a2f52d49eea346700917e0e77f\u0022\u003EKauri Forests\u2014Protection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E9. SHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227284748ca1cc4f18a32e56840c0334c4\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: What steps has the Government recently taken to protect New Zealand\u2019s kauri forests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00227736fd4a74b04594b39ac218b24cf040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227736fd4a74b04594b39ac218b24cf040\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E There is more good news. The Government is delighted to announce that it is injecting an additional $4.7 million of funding into a programme to save kauri trees threatened by kauri dieback disease. This will bring total Government funding for a 5-year programme aimed at containing this soil-borne disease to almost $10 million. It is a true demonstration of this Government\u2019s commitment to protect this treasured species from what is a very serious biosecurity threat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adfc5687d4764fd59f371d04d1d12ce5\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government committed funding to fighting the kauri dieback disease?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d74004e51c431c8796e1a1a5dc1cd6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand\u2019s ancient kauri forests are an important part of our heritage, they are of huge significance to M\u0101ori, and they are vital to our native ecosystem. The kauri dieback disease is relatively unknown, but it poses a major threat to kauri species, especially those in the upper North Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187f691ced7b4b65993ded9c5de54f0c\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is so committed to protecting Northland forests, then why does he support the closure of the \u014Cpua biosecurity office, an action that leaves Northland vulnerable to pests and diseases from the hundreds of foreign yachts and vessels that visit Northland every year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227b757a4b0ac41248393c9b566503250\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The \u014Cpua office will be manned from Whangarei. It will be manned throughout the season. It will not be manned throughout the winter, when not a lot of these vessels come into \u014Cpua port.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae9080c43a14ec8b91fb85120046c8b\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister guarantee that his cut-backs to Biosecurity New Zealand will not expose New Zealand to greater risk and an invasion of Australian fruit flies, which would destroy our horticultural industry, given that a live Australian cane toad has just hopped through his current system; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dccdfea03cd4cd2a57baf236477ed7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There have been no cuts to Biosecurity New Zealand under this Government, unlike those under the previous Labour Government, and\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be437561a474c7b95471fda4e26ca2c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister. The House is so noisy that I cannot hear when members call. I take it that it is a point of order that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor is calling for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e8f473be78c4c3aba6cd475a11495a7\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is misleading the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc8455556b84653b96be147944534ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat immediately. He cannot use a point of order to contest an answer that is being provided by the Minister, especially not by arguing that the Minister is misleading the House. If he wants to ask further supplementary questions that may highlight what he considers to be inaccuracies in the answer, then that is fine, but he cannot do it by way of a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228344bc6fc4da421aa1a9af9b9d0495b4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Continuing with my answer, the member might like to acknowledge to the House that when his Government was in charge, eight cane toads came into New Zealand in 2003, and four came in in 2004. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a9e83631904af193b496e262c88e5f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Some members will get a yellow card if they are not careful. I am on my feet. [Interruption] I am getting serious. The House has let off a little steam; let us put that behind us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6d15ef3eb8d4015be8505e94e6382af\u0022\u003EACC, Minister\u2014Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265c4a79c0e4d472682e6a1497e3f0d2f\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Does he stand by all his statements in the House on ACC?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002231cf13eaefa84c44876408bba4cebd4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231cf13eaefa84c44876408bba4cebd4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ba680840264309b6c9dd2a8c2c71af\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he claim on 5 March in this House that Treasury had not been involved in the review of the accident compensation scheme, when, in fact, he had received a stream of advice that highlighted Treasury\u2019s involvement in the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a9585ff9dd42c79740a621fabff7f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury had provided advice to me about the accident compensation scheme. I have to say that the advice has been very concerning. It is that the scheme\u2019s financial position is unsustainable and that significant change is required, through having either large levy increases or a pull-back on entitlements. The Government has been working through those difficult issues very responsibly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e723ac4e3c4a429111f579e1944241\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question related to the fact that the Minister claimed to stand by all of his statements. One of his statements was that Treasury had not been involved, and clearly it had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d347e5545c61405eb3ac32dd2cca1592\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not clear on what that point of order was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9e1bf6737e4a2cbd09c9c587d8e3db\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker. What I am saying is that the Minister\u2019s answer to my supplementary question is entirely unresponsive to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225621d453ef841ddbb933a62a1227980\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What I will do\u2014[Interruption] I will ask the House to please be a little more respectful of question time. Because it has been a very noisy day, it has been very difficult for me to hear. I invite the member to repeat his question, and I would like the House to please be reasonably quiet so that I can hear the question and the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe155b067b44a9185e59ad90c50a39e\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Perhaps I should stress the critical words. Why, then, did he claim on 5 March in this House that Treasury had not been involved in the review of the accident compensation scheme, when, in fact, he had received a stream of advice that highlighted Treasury\u2019s involvement in the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224476c86a1bd143689367ee9050d66144\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member set down a written question that is very, very general. There are a number of reviews of ACC. If the member had specific information about a particular review or the like, in order for me to be able to specifically reply on which review and on which statements, the member should have set that information down in his primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e206b493dc874daaab2f8e8b60e54496\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739d6cf593b147ccb7c198eebd45b7e8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need further assistance on this matter. If the Minister answered along those lines, then it would be a perfectly fair answer, because the point he makes is absolutely correct. Where a very general primary question is laid down, members cannot necessarily expect a Minister to have the information required to answer a specific supplementary question. I invite the Hon Dr Nick Smith to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227da46bae491847c79c999601b81f0e8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The situation with the accident compensation scheme has been quite serious, such that there have been a number of reviews. Some of those have involved Treasury; some have not. The member will need to be more specific in order for me to be able to provide an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d653b26128674ff9ab953191ef44d972\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My supplementary question highlights the Minister\u2019s answer to my primary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e03c16469774260883543cdda9d076f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot litigate an answer in that way, by using a point of order. The member asked a question. I gave him the chance to repeat it. I listened very carefully, and the Minister gave a perfectly reasonable answer, given that very, very imprecise and bland primary question. I think that the member has had a perfectly good answer from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b84e31e355d41898bcb71a97f5662b4\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table some documents. The first of these is a Department of Labour accident compensation briefing to the Minister of 23 December, which states: \u201CTreasury are still considering the scope of the review.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601832046bb54638be16caceeb0bdbde\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789b5f74bb1145a1acbb323fd07668ba\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is a briefing on accident compensation of 20 February from the Department of Labour, developed in consultation with Treasury, in which the Minister has noted the involvement of Treasury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558768f789544c0e89a78ca56e6344b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b4fdbc20d7641a79725663f717f8f97\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps I should seek your advice on the third document to be tabled. It is the Hansard of Dr Smith\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236bc36f12bc64324b1a6ecae9ee6f0eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not be seeking leave for the tabling of a recent Hansard. I take it it is a reasonably recent Hansard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0de01f661984be5b8e888059041fc85\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: It is his answer from 5 March, so it is not very recent. It is the answer in which he states that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8826cd49914cbead5cd65a90629cb9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I take it that it is from Hansard this year, and the House already has that readily available to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1de16827af44b34ab75aebda0cda03d\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his promise of 24/7 cover for all New Zealanders, or will his new legislation leave out some New Zealanders who do not meet a 6 percent hearing loss threshold, which, according to hearing experts, was plucked from thin air?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f086a24841fd418ab55c949d85c6e46a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, the assertion from the member is incorrect. The 6 percent hearing loss threshold is standard in Australia and in other parts of the world. There are a number of thresholds in other parts of the accident compensation Act, some of which were put in place by the previous Government. This Government does stand by having a 24/7 no-fault accident insurance scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260c3dc5f2e0485d9914f0f394884713\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that \u201Coperational improvements\u201D to the accident compensation scheme, like the voluntary accord with the hearing industry that has saved $10 million in the last 18 months, are threatened by the complete lack of consultation on proposed changes to the work-related hearing loss provisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226334439185ff4f70ae67163d49251516\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Minister to answer the question, did that supplementary question relate to a statement the Minister had made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c932e94c15e4648bbd802b6ed9371ac\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11d9084e8b247e0b9635cb7498b348d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the member to repeat her question, so that she makes the statement very clear to me. The primary question is about statements the Minister has made in this House. It asks: \u201CDoes he stand by all his statements in the House on ACC?\u201D, so the supplementary question must relate to any statements he has made in this House. I invite the member to repeat her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fba118f5b32140e0a9a05f871e867f05\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that \u201Coperational improvements\u201D to the accident compensation scheme, like the voluntary accord with the hearing industry that has saved $10 million in the last 18 months, are threatened by the complete lack of consultation on proposed changes to the work-related hearing loss provisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d4cb27a2b54e21afd6f95ec1706aac\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm to the member that the cost of the hearing loss compensation part of the scheme\u2019s cover has grown very substantially each and every single year, such that it is one of the areas where, if we are to ensure accident compensation is sustainable into the long term, we cannot sustain the level of increase in expenses, which has been way over the rate of inflation. The corporation ran a deficit of $4.8 billion this year, and that means we need to make changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255135dfb1288441f8020e0dba5029fa3\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Will he listen to the select committee, as he promised in the House yesterday, and will he listen to the Rail and Maritime Transport Union, which appeared before the select committee today, and which says its injured workers, who may be forced to work in non-related jobs for 40 hours a week without adequate rehabilitation, will call for the right to sue employers who have caused their injuries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245de7faca6094e779b91df60a12cc94c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Government, and particularly Government members, who are very capable, are listening carefully to the submissions. But I do say that the status quo for accident compensation is not sustainable. Most of the changes are reversals of unfunded changes made by the previous Government. If that Government had actually budgeted for some of the extra entitlements that it offered and promised, we would not be in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022017b93b23c024d9d961244e28a177689\u0022\u003EIndustrial Action\u2014Advice to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3b2d644653470ab84d9ffa4dc0b516\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What advice, if any, has she received on the reason that thousands of workers all around New Zealand will be taking industrial action and attending rallies tomorrow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022a08a5193a9594f95aa170d9bf1c87a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a08a5193a9594f95aa170d9bf1c87a6a\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have been advised of the rally and understand that the workers involved are seeking better pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9abd276ef6649c38397934a9d16f500\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Will she or any other member of the National Government be fronting up tomorrow to the 2,700 hospital and service workers, the many thousands of publicly funded disability support carers, school support staff, hospital administrative staff, and public service workers who will be attending rallies up and down the country to protest about this Government\u2019s wage freeze, which is hurting low-paid workers like them; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229237ac15c2e744c6b04ccd48bb3684ad\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member that tomorrow I intend spending the day in Taranaki, with a day full of appointments. I could possibly catch a glimpse of the rally up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224700390ec5204bff85dd5396e0b60db3\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is fair that low-paid workers, like the thousands who will protest tomorrow, have to accept a zero wage increase, at the same time that the cost of living is going up, the richest chief executive officers in the country are getting massive pay increases, and the Government is planning to make workers pay more for accident compensation and receive less; and is this what the Government calls \u201Ctaking the sharpest edges off the recession.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222270edb16fd34d7c82ac37b795d9e062\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member that if the previous Labour Government had not wasted 9 years of golden economic weather, we would not even be having this conversation. But the harsh reality is that we are in difficult economic times, in which many people have lost their jobs. This Government is borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars a week to maintain service levels, and we want to invest in a smarter, more productive Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220305f58f41664e94be139324ff75f006\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How will a wage freeze for low-paid workers in the State sector, such as the ones who protest tomorrow, help to close the wage gap with Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d0361e135042f7bf6e906d280c635f\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: As that member well knows, this Government is intent on balancing the economy, on taking the sharp edges off the economy. We have opted, as we have said, for a balanced policy that does protect people in the short term from the sharp edges of the recession. The policy lays the foundation for increased economic growth and more jobs, on the road to recovery for our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222571a658b77b48aabc912ac775605cff\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have encouraged us to ask very specific questions, and I asked a very specific question about how a wage freeze such as the Minister is proposing will narrow the wage gap with Australia; she did not address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14302c16e144861b8c2ed6ee62a9aac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely accept the point the member makes that he asked a very commendably to-the-point question\u2014very commendable. The only dilemma I have is the Minister\u2019s actual responsibility for the wage round in the public sector. That is my dilemma in asking for a more specific answer, because the Minister of State Services is actually responsible for the wage round in the State sector. That is my difficulty in asking the Minister to be more precise in her answer. So I apologise to the member, because I do commend him for an absolutely succinct question, but, sadly, it is really outside the Minister\u2019s responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea9a7b0d53454f5f97bf4ab57ff03c7c\u0022\u003EGovernment Data Accessibility\u2014Launch of Website\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fdf14cf2fa9413398ec7b0709ac836a\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What is the Government doing to make government data more easily accessible to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00229b99128c753a49feaecce4445582725c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b99128c753a49feaecce4445582725c\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this month the Government launched a new website administered by the Department of Internal Affairs called data.govt.nz. The website is a catalogue of publicly available Government data and is a great resource for the public. This is part of a drive to make non-personal Government data more discoverable, usable, and relevant to all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214dcad75ae974c808a1499217b5fb7c4\u0022\u003EKanwaljit Singh Bakshi\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister had on this new initiative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcc7932f1fe4eacbeb3361b329410dd\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a great deal of positive feedback about this new website, in particular from the National Business Review and from people in the UK, USA, and Australia. I understand that Opposition MP Chris Hipkins is also a big fan. He has publicly commented: \u201CI think it would be hugely useful for researchers, journalists, analysts, businesses, in fact just about anyone! Keep up the good work DIA \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538a7f5ab97947f28baea3c561cf0bed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is coming close to the end of a sitting period, so I guess a bit more noise is to be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cada981afaa40e49053fd7cf9fa6dfd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221be92a02517d4130b872fe7ab66cbddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221be92a02517d4130b872fe7ab66cbddd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E During question No. 3 Ms Tolley indicated that she would provide information to me. I ask whether the rule that applies to the tabling of information, which is that it is to be done by the end of the sitting day, applies here, or is that not the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8717143dab4dc08444c22e1e20a19e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not\u2014nice try. I am sure the member knows that it is not. It is up to the Minister to follow up on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd86210ff5f24e879c1673bca9574488\u0022\u003ECorrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260a5a0d123ff459b85241fc4e6fcdb4d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000646\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022283f03d27e7e494bbf4473aa9ac83343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022283f03d27e7e494bbf4473aa9ac83343\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill started out as a seemingly simple measure\u2014[Interruption] That is all right; the members will hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225269d27cb1d34e7aa7ba3d39db1b1b6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. Could I ask members to be a little reasonable. A member has been given the call; I ask for a little more reasonableness. The members had a fair bit of fun in question time, and I ask that they show some courtesy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022827c950a5f894e429e4a8891bd91b019\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: This bill started off as a seemingly simple measure to continue a current practice, one that members opposite opposed bitterly when they were in Opposition. They opposed it many times. It is quite ironical that they bring the same measure back at this time. They have received support from this side of the House, but what has surprised me is the lack of generosity, the lack of acknowledging that what they are now regulating for is precisely what they criticised not many months ago, when they were in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe find that a number of elements in this bill still need ironing out and need to be worked out. I hope the Minister of Corrections will get those matters sorted out in a reasonably quick time. In particular, we need to know quite clearly whether this measure is a temporary provision or a permanent provision. Certainly, from the way the debate proceeded this morning we got the sense that this measure is a temporary measure. But when we look at the regulatory impact statement, we see that it says the opposite\u2014that this bill is a long-term measure, and it is expected that it will apply on an ongoing basis. So which one is it? It needs to be clarified: is it a short-term measure just for now, while the Government does whatever it needs to do to address its policy goals, or is it a long-term measure? We have sought an answer to this question, but the Ministers in the chair have not provided us with that answer. How long it will last is something that ought to be clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThere is a provision that there is to be an agreement between the Ministry of Justice and the Department of Corrections. A number of the questions that have been raised by our colleagues could well be answered by that agreement. Indeed, all of the matters could be brought forward and included in it, and I would certainly advise the Minister of Corrections to proceed in that way. What about the costs? How are the costs to be met? What about the processes? Many of the speakers from the Opposition side asked about the processes for managing prisoners held in cells that are in court buildings. How are those processes to be managed? The answer given by the Minister in the chair defies credibility, when we take some of the examples that my colleagues\u2014members from this side of the House\u2014have posed. The way that the Minister was saying it might proceed just would not work. Opposition members have also raised safety questions\u2014that is, the safety of those who look after the prisoners. What are the rules? If this agreement is to have standing and to be useful, then all of those things need to be brought together. For the sake of clarity, then, these matters must be addressed in that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt became clearer as the debate on this\u2014as I said earlier\u2014seemingly simple bill proceeded this morning that the Government is underperforming in terms of its focus on violence and offending. That certainly became clearer as the discussions went on. Throughout the morning it turned the provisions in the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill into a violence and law and order issue. Members contributing from the Government\u2019s side of the House have displayed their own ignorance, in many\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bda4b9a6794aa08363299d1c0585a3\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221446cd4e3a52488e853da5c10b9a2fab\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: If the member was here, he would have heard examples of ignorance. If the member was here, he would have heard. I do not think it would have been possible for him to do that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279067643856b4355a0a903c2874387f7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why? Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbbac27417e415985d80b189947da8a\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member would not have followed it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249830e1c3507419b9585ddf28ca318e3\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd50d060845941a8bb84d6f639865267\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: If the member was listening, he would have heard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225970e8f200794a16b65e7413b023e187\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Rajen!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226647633727ce46a3af88c99cf381e6e6\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Mr Bridges would have heard as well\u2014that much of what the Government is doing today was started by the last Government, and the current Government has added very little to that. Those measures are directly related to the very area of violence that has given rise to the recent increase in the number of violent incident reports. Most of it is to do with domestic violence and family violence. If the member was listening this morning and was following the debate, he would have heard Shane Ardern, for example, use information very selectively. He remembered only a small piece of what I told him and forgot the additional information that I had given in the debate this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is clear that this Government has milked the community\u2019s concern about violent crime and about violence generally. It has milked it for its own reasons. It has passed some new provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d2d1e89fc34f64b511d3117965e67f\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. We\u2019ve done something about it. That\u2019s the difference. We\u2019ve done something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c59e9ec2fc444768f8d8fc1085e4de8\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: The member should consider that her Government has indeed milked that concern. Very few real provisions have come through. Most of the provisions\u2014but not all of them\u2014that are currently doing the work are provisions that the previous Government put in place. There are very few new provisions. There is some tidying-up, but nothing of a major nature that is going to turn round the performance of this country in the area of violence. Mark my words, time will show that to be the case, unless something more dramatic is done. Members will see the work started by the previous Government gaining traction and, indeed, providing results. I am sure the Government will take credit for that, but that work was started by the last Government, and that is what members who were not listening this morning missed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe mistake the Government made was turning this very simple provision into a law and order issue. That shows me that the other side of the House has run out of steam in addressing what was its flagship policy in the area of crime and violence. Yet we know that the bulk of the violence that is happening is happening is our homes. The figures are now showing that. Programmes started by the last Government are being supported by the present Minister for Social Development and Employment, as her officials reported in the Social Services Committee earlier this week. That is to her credit and I acknowledge that; I commend it. She is funding those programmes and supporting them, and that is well done. But there is nothing new. Much of that work was started by the Taskforce for Action on Violence within Families and by the Families Commission. I say to the members opposite that it is a mistake to always turn anything to do with tidying up a simple provision into a law and order issue. Members do that at their own peril. It does not do credit to those members. It simply demonstrates to us that they have lost their way in this particular debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMany matters to do with this provision need to be resolved, and I hope the Minister will take the opportunity to do that. In the end, what has replaced good evidence of the Government\u2019s thinking about where it will take the issues of crime and law and order is a chant that Labour did nothing for 9 years. I challenge every member of the Government, particularly the Ministers, who repeats that chant to demonstrate that he or she is not intellectually dishonest. If those members were intellectually honest, they would go to their Ministers and ask them what the last Government did, and those members would be told that many, many of the previous Government\u2019s provisions are indeed the provisions that this Government is utilising today. When we see that happen, we will move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EFinally, there is one provision that needs to be tidied up. The bill does not define the limit of 4 days, or 96 hours, and that needs tidying up. At the moment, it appears only in the regulatory impact statement. That ought to be clarified far more directly and made well known. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00228428e104fe4e412092c26e7215426f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228428e104fe4e412092c26e7215426f12\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Members of the public who were listening to that contribution from Dr Prasad on the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill, or who perhaps were following this debate before the lunch adjournment, must be bewildered and confused by the inconsistent and dogma-ridden contributions of the Opposition members. Yet again, we have heard Labour members conveying one view with their tone, their body language, and most of their comments, but another view altogether when they actually stated their voting intentions in respect of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ec9e64258f48329cb66ab072b8d92d\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Van Dyck!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229525d6bc91848d1801f614aef78a5ae\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: It is not too late for Mr Hughes to go online and donate generously to my Movember effort, and I welcome and look forward to his contribution. Please do that, Darren; I need all the friends I can get! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAlong with my colleagues on the Government side of the House, I welcome this measure, which will certainly be of benefit in the Waikato region, where the problems that this bill is designed to overcome are of increasing concern. [Interruption] It is a very good moustache, Ms Dalziel; thank you for your admiration of it. The issues and purposes of this bill have been well explored and articulated by my Government colleagues during this debate. I join them in commending this measure to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa68dec1312749df8feb9f15d1c2d045\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections (Use of Court Cells) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213e523c28367455e92c38ae33c8e2010\u0022\u003EBorder (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4435822791e418c999b30849b5321bf\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00229146c048cc4246e6a909c65e4ee17222\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229146c048cc4246e6a909c65e4ee17222\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill be now read a second time. The bill was introduced into Parliament in October this year and had its first reading on 15 October, so I think that gives members an idea of how quickly the Government Administration Committee worked to process it, to get it through and get it back. I pay tribute to the members of the committee, which was ably chaired by Mr David Parker, and deputy chaired by my colleague Jacqui Dean. The committee members did a superb job. I pay tribute to them all and thank them for the attention that they gave to the bill, including some of the minor tweaking and tidying up that select committees often do so well to make a bill just a little bit better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill is an omnibus bill that amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 and the Tariff Act 1988 and makes consequential amendments to the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985, the Finance Act (No 2) 1993, and the Finance Act (No 2) 1995. The amendments contained in the bill make improvements in the processing and administration of goods and people required under these interrelated Acts. The majority of amendments relate to border processing and administration by facilitating New Zealand\u2019s international commitments, or the use of new technology, while other amendments improve border processing and administration generally. This bill contains three sets of amendments to improve the effectiveness of the Customs and Excise Act\u2014which I will refer to as the Act from here on\u2014and to meet the Government\u2019s policy goals: amendments relating to the automated passenger processing system SmartGate, six amendments to clarify and enhance the Act, and eight amendments to address legislative gaps and/or uncertainties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn today\u2019s international travelling environment, we are faced with threats to our personal security. Those of us who have travelled internationally are well aware of the various security measures with which we must comply, whether it be to protect New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity, New Zealand\u2019s community\u2014from, for example, illegal firearms, offensive weapons, and controlled drugs\u2014New Zealand\u2019s aviation security, or, indeed, New Zealand\u2019s immigration laws. These obligations on the travelling public have resulted in longer waiting and processing times at airports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ETo counter this, the Government has announced that low-risk Australian and New Zealand passport holders will enjoy a faster, more streamlined exit through border processes at the international airports at Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch. As part of that, automated processing through the SmartGate system will become an option for travellers holding an Australian or a New Zealand e-passport. In reviewing the Act to take account of SmartGate, Customs Service officials have identified potential amendments relating to passenger interaction with the clearance process. These amendments are relatively minor. The focus of the amendments is to ensure that automated systems can be used in place of customs officers. The effect of the amendments is to allow the use of the automated processing systems at the border, which will benefit the travelling public and will contribute to the Government\u2019s objectives of improving the border-crossing experience for trans-Tasman travellers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe Government Administration Committee has proposed an amendment to ensure that the Customs Service provides for an alternative means of border processing that involves having a person in any new or amended automated electronic system. Having a manual processing option is already part of the SmartGate arrangements, so I was happy to agree and accept this amendment in order to provide an assurance to the public that anybody who does not like machines or who does not want to use them can always use the manual alternative. I intend to propose a very minor technical amendment by way of Supplementary Order Paper 100, however, to ensure that this new provision does not inadvertently impact on some existing arrangements. For example, if we specified that there has to be a manual alternative to every automated process, it may mean that the Customs Service would need to have a manual paper base for all its automatic database tracking of incoming passengers. This amendment will make sure that only the processing of passengers through the gate has the alternative for a human to process passengers, not all the back-office computer systems, which, if the provision had stayed, would have caused at least some doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e3d709c88b43359033bfed9b8b2b96\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds a bit tricky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd321a0dac7f44088737bd74720831a4\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is very straight up and down. It is not a coastal shipping type of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESmartGate will enhance the role of customs officers at the border, as front-line customs officers can be redeployed to the secondary line, where the intervention with high-risk passengers occurs. I reiterate that SmartGate cannot and will not be a substitute for the observation skills and vigilance employed by trained customs officers at the border, but I want those customs officers putting their effort into the really high-risk, big targets and not into all of the ordinary Kiwis and Australians travelling across the Tasman as part of their everyday operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESix amendments are included in the bill to clarify and enhance the Act, especially in relation to strengthening the Customs Service\u2019s law enforcement capability. The amendments enable customs officers to search a vehicle, regardless of whether it is being operated or is unattended, and they give them the ability to use reasonable force to gain entry to effect the search of such a vehicle. The bill will create a power to arrest any person committing an offence punishable by imprisonment under the Act, whether or not the person is on a craft. One of the quirks of history is that a person had to be on the craft to be arrested, but once the person was off the craft, customs officers could not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that duty on goods manufactured other than in a manufacturing area become due immediately upon the manufacture of the goods. It creates a new offence of making a false allegation or report to the Customs Service that an offence has been committed while knowing that the statement is not true, or of making statements with the intention of wasting or diverting personnel or resources. The bill will enable the Customs Service to use future technology in those provisions that relate to the detection of tampering or interference with goods, containers, or packages. It will also provide the Customs Service with the ability to require payment of debts within the 20-day time limit period where the Customs Service receives advance warning that a company has a dubious financial situation and payments by the due date are unlikely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI note that committee members have paid close attention to the arrest provisions, which is entirely appropriate, given the serious nature of this power. This particular amendment extends the circumstances where customs officers may arrest without warrant, but it is consistent with the focus of customs officers\u2019 work. I am pleased to see that the amendment has been supported by the whole committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes eight minor amendments to the Act aimed at addressing legislative gaps and uncertainties. These include amendments to clarify the provisions in the Act relating to authorised persons, to allow for the revocation of a customs export delivery order in certain circumstances, to allow material usually set out in the schedules to the Customs and Excise Regulations to be incorporated by reference, to relocate the alcohol personal use exemption from the Customs and Excise Regulations to the Act, to allow the chief executive to nominate non - customs officer employees to lay an information, to allow for the suspension of a registered user\u2019s registration, to clarify that the chief executive can grant further time for the lodgement of an entry of goods for exporting in appropriate cases, and to allow for the imposition of administrative penalties for entries containing an error or omission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill contains amendments to the Tariff Act 1988 primarily to allow for the faster and more efficient implementation of tariff reductions arising from free-trade agreements. It will allow material usually set out in tariff amendment orders to be incorporated by reference, and will make The Working Tariff Document of New Zealand, which is maintained by the New Zealand Customs Service, the legal Tariff. Following the amendments to the Tariff Act, schedule 3 of the Customs and Excise Act is replaced with an excise and excise-equivalent duties table available on the Internet and in hard copy. The bill also enacts a previous decision of Cabinet to raise fuel excise duty by 3c per litre, effective from 1 October 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EAgain I thank the Government Administration Committee very much for completing its work on this bill in such a very compressed time frame. We will be launching the SmartGate terminals at Auckland Airport on 3 December, which is only a few days away, and this legislation is required to allow those terminals, which operate without any manual intervention, to be implemented. I commend the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002260f3d899c78640139204e37b7f62e021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260f3d899c78640139204e37b7f62e021\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to rise to declare that Labour supports the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill, as outlined by the Minister of Customs, the Hon Maurice Williamson. I take this opportunity to reflect back to the Government some areas that need to be illuminated. I also signal that we have a couple of questions we would like to ask the Government during the Committee stage for clarity. I also take this opportunity to recognise my colleagues the Hon Rick Barker and the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who, as former customs Ministers when Labour was in Government, had a hand in the genesis of the development of the SmartGate system with our neighbours across the ditch, the Australian Government. I acknowledge them because through their initial efforts we are able to join today with the Government in introducing SmartGate. Labour supports SmartGate as an automated passenger processing system that can be used for faster and easier passenger processing, and that will facilitate trans-Tasman travel for people deemed to be low-risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAlthough I was not a member of the Government Administration Committee, it was a concern to me that there were only two submitters. Because the airport is in M\u0101ngere, I had the opportunity to ask the people there whether they had any concerns about SmartGate. Although the people of M\u0101ngere\u2014which is the gateway to the nation\u2014support SmartGate, they did express some concerns. One concern was this: because we now have a National Government, SmartGate may be used only for the elite of society, big business, or those who travel in first or business class. There was a concern that SmartGate may not include ordinary citizens and ordinary Kiwis. What the Government does is what the Government will do. But in so far as Labour is concerned, SmartGate is an option for low-risk passengers. It should not be solely for business passengers, and it should include tourists and the ordinary Kiwi traveller. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EA further concern raised was that SmartGate is only a machine and it may make a mistake. If we can imagine a machine using SmartGate, a confrontation could occur where the machine is capable only of making a yes or no decision, and a person arriving has a valid explanation that could work in his or her favour but is unable to provide that to a real person. This concern was reinforced by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, which, in its submission to the select committee, gave evidence that there should be a requirement that manual alternatives would always be available or that the chief executive will consult the Privacy Commissioner on any privacy implications before eliminating or reducing manual alternatives. Labour supports the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s recommendation that manual alternatives, or real people, always be available. I am pleased that the committee recommends an amendment to clause 22 of the bill that proposes at least one alternative method of processing involving a person being available alongside automated border processing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour agrees with the need to stay up to date with the latest technology to keep our borders safe. We need to protect our borders against the growing P menace, and I will have a little bit more to say about that later. Labour believes that the New Zealand Customs Service must have the tools to stay on top of this threat, and the Government must give its full support to our border control agencies. We will also be looking to support the Government\u2019s amendments that will be introduced later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002283b5eefc88be45dab2ce030325550cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b5eefc88be45dab2ce030325550cf8\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill. Managing New Zealand\u2019s border provides a number of challenges for New Zealand and for the New Zealand Customs Service. The current customs priorities reflect the New Zealand and Australian Governments\u2019 desire to make crossing the Tasman simpler and more efficient for travellers, with the introduction of new technology and streamlined processes. Another priority is the introduction of a new express lane for travellers in airports identified as being a low biosecurity risk. There will be a pilot of assessing bags during flight time in order to allow quicker processing on arrival, and an increase in the instant biosecurity infringement fine from $200 to $400. These measures demonstrate the Government\u2019s commitment to streamlining trans-Tasman travel, while enhancing our world-class biosecurity system. The Customs Service also has a strong priority of increasing the interceptions of illicit drugs and precursor materials that are entering New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EOur border is extremely busy. In a year, the Customs Service processes 9.62 million air passenger movements inwards and outwards. Every year 4,611 marine vessels are cleared by the Customs Service. The Customs Service also coordinates the surveillance of some 15,000 kilometres of coastline, and clears just over 1,000 small aircraft each year. It deals with nearly 42 million import transactions, including those by mail, and with 27.5 million export transactions during a year. The amendments in the bill will also meet the Customs Service\u2019s objective of meeting our international obligations relating to cross-border crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe bill makes amendments to the Customs and Excise Act and also to the Tariff Act. The bill contains three sets of amendments: firstly, there are amendments relating to the automated passenger processing system known as SmartGate, and I will make a few comments about those; secondly, there are amendments to clarify and enhance the current legislation, and our good Minister of Customs, the Hon Maurice Williamson, has gone over those amendments, so I will not repeat that; and, thirdly, there are amendments to address legislative gaps and uncertainties. The majority of the amendments relate to border processing and administration, by facilitating New Zealand\u2019s international commitments, or to the use of new technology, although other amendments contained in the bill improve border processing or improve administration in a general sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI will make a few comments about the SmartGate amendments. One of the positive aspects of the bill is that it sets out amendments to the current legislation so that it can take into account SmartGate technologies. Although these amendments are relatively minor, they will ensure that automated systems can be used in place of customs officers. The effect of these amendments is to allow the use of automated processing systems at the border, which is something that will benefit the travelling public and contribute to the Government\u2019s objective of improving the border-crossing experience for trans-Tasman travellers. As the Minister mentioned in his very good speech, there is a provision in the bill for passengers to have the alternative choice of clearing customs face to face with customs officers, far from the contention of the members on the opposite side of the House that the SmartGate technology will work to the benefit of more affluent travellers and leave less affluent travellers to meet with a customs officer in person. To the contrary, that alternative is provided for people for whom it is not suitable get their face scanned\u2014for example, people who are blind or who are in wheelchairs. Alternatives to the SmartGate technology are there to cater for people who do not want to be scanned, or are not able to be scanned, through the SmartGate technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill amends interrelated Acts to improve the processing and administration of goods and people across New Zealand\u2019s borders. The majority of the amendments relate to border processing and administration by facilitating New Zealand\u2019s international commitments for the use of the new SmartGate technology. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00221a1df0ef584242ea90053cabb20a9c44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a1df0ef584242ea90053cabb20a9c44\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand in support of the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill. I guess it is unusual to have legislation in this House that is supported by both sides of the political divide. As my colleague the Labour Party member for Mangere, Su\u2019a William Sio, said, the genesis of this bill lay in the previous Labour-led Government. I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, in your role as a former Minister of Customs in our Labour-led Government. You were the first person to bring to the customs area a focus on practicality and a common-sense approach to things. I think few New Zealanders realise when they line up at the airport and see a sign saying: \u201CAustralian and New Zealand Citizens\u201D that Rick Barker was the person responsible for that. You took Chris Ellison, the Australian customs Minister, to our airport and you said to him: \u201CLook! We allow Australian citizens to line up with New Zealand citizens to be processed.\u201D, and he did the same for Australian airports. That has made travel for New Zealanders to Australia quicker, more efficient, more effective, and a lot easier. I think few New Zealanders know they can thank you for that very practical approach, and that was just one example of the approach you took to the customs portfolio. Your successor in the Labour-led Government, Nanaia Mahuta, and now Maurice Williamson have attempted to bring to customs an efficient, practical, hands-on approach so that the critical task of border security services\u2014customs, immigration, and so on\u2014is about finding effective ways to keep our borders safe, but at the same time facilitates the movement of people and goods through the border in a way that is practical and helps to create economic efficiencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ELabour is supporting this bill. We think SmartGate is a sensible use of technology to improve effective passenger flows. Labour also supports the enhanced ability of customs officers to intercept and to search, and to use new technologies to see whether containers have been interfered with. Certainly in policing and, indeed, in immigration as well, containers can provide a vehicle, a vector, for the importation of drugs. Even on short haul journeys there is the ability for people-smuggling in containers. Having an effective system and an effective use of technologies to be able to check whether containers have been interfered with is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAnother area I would like to focus on is biosecurity. In his first reading speech Maurice Williamson said he was trying to shift resources from the management of passenger flows, where people do not pose a risk either to our security or to our immigration services, to using resources to intercept in those very critical issues of keeping New Zealand safe, particularly from biosecurity and health threats. I think that is very commendable, but I ask Maurice Williamson\u2014as I undoubtedly will in the Committee stage\u2014how this seems to be in contradiction to the last Budget that was presented to the House by the new National-led Government, where $3.75 million appeared to be cut from border security funding. This is at a time when new technology and the associated expenses are being used for things like SmartGate. My understanding is that about 50 border security staff have lost their jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThis area that Mr Williamson touched on in his speech is so critical to the health and well-being of our country. We are a major food producer in the world. Primary production is critical to the economic well-being of all New Zealanders. Not just rural dwellers, but all Kiwis, depend on the prosperity and wealth of our country and on the effectiveness, viability, and safety of our agricultural industries. For 5 years I was privileged to be New Zealand\u2019s Minister of Conservation. A lot of the work on leading the Department of Conservation to protect our natural environment was about the biosecurity of New Zealand. I think only one other country in the world, Madagascar, has suffered as much impact on its natural environment from introduced pests\u2014animal, insect, plant, bacteria, and fungi\u2014as New Zealand has. Only New Zealand and Madagascar have been most impacted on by alien species. There are 90 million possums chewing their way through our forests and millions of stoats devouring our native bird species. Plant species like gorse and broom have colonised our agricultural land and have cost millions for industries to combat. We even have an introduced species of seaweed, Undaria, infesting many of our southern harbours, creating costs and threats not only to our unique biodiversity but also for the practical use of those ports. It colonises boats, moorings, jetties, and wharves. These are all costs for the country, and they are all about having slack and ineffective security. I remember when I was first elected as an MP we had the painted apple moth incursion in west Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225616ca82b847440c8b8f8d760aff6af8\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Last century!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a5b977fc4a44fda76f8e39e14f2f05\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It was last century, Mr Hughes; that is true. My colleagues from west Auckland like David Cunliffe and Lynne Pillay remember well the concern of our local residents and the millions that our Labour-led Government had to spend in dealing with that incursion. Luckily we were successful, because the painted apple moth posed an enormous threat not only to our timber industry but also to our native forests. In more recent times we have had the problem of the varroa bee mite, which has devastated the honey bee industry in New Zealand. Earlier than that we had the introduction of about five exotic wasp species, which has had a big impact on biodiversity. Those are the things that have happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EToday in question time we heard about a cane toad that was found in Queenstown. I think I heard the Minister of Agriculture rebutting the Labour Party spokesperson when he raised concerns about cuts to biosecurity services, saying that there had been eight in the time that the Labour Government was in power. I do remember well, as Minister of Conservation, that a cane toad jumped out of someone\u2019s suitcase in Levin, of all places. It again shows that a suitcase had come through our border and inside it\u2014inadvertently, I am sure\u2014was a cane toad. It is a rather large species but it still managed to get through a port or, more likely, an airport. Those are all species that could impact on New Zealand. Of course, we also have threats not only to our native environment and our agricultural industries, but also to our human health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a67a7b03dd4373a44de6eb6342bbeb\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: If it doesn\u2019t have a swipe card, it\u2019s not getting through the SmartGate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228274510af5cf4c85bbc84bebd65bbd47\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the member for Waitakere, Paula Bennett, ridiculing this speech. Of course, she has lived in west Auckland for only a short time so she will not remember the painted apple moth drama, but I assure her that people in west Auckland felt very concerned about it. If she actually went to a few more things in the west, she might know about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAs I said, we face threats to human health, as well. Rabies, a disease that has been eliminated from New Zealand\u2014its vector, a canine species\u2014could well be introduced into New Zealand as a result of inappropriate border control. The Asian tiger mosquito has larvae that have already been found in tyres imported from Japan. It is a vector for malaria and other very dangerous pathogens that could infect the human population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe saltmarsh mosquito has already been found in the area around Nelson and briefly in the Kaipara area, although, fortunately, not recently. Again, that is a vector for dengue fever. These are all threats to human health. Red fire ants have been found in New Zealand. I remember that when I was the Minister of Conservation we discovered at Auckland Airport and in Napier two colonies of red fire ants. They were eliminated, but within secure borders that very nasty ant species, which is now very widespread around Brisbane, could well be introduced into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI say to the new Minister of Customs in the National-led Government that, yes, this bill is a good bill. It seeks to do good things. But if the Government cuts back on border security\u2014and we have seen that already in the latest Budget, where 50 staff have lost their jobs\u2014then these diseases, these pests, these risks to human health, these risks to our agricultural industry, and these risks to our natural environment do pose a real danger. That is what we need to focus on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022459b2300a7ad4a19af9a2b957ad0eaf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022459b2300a7ad4a19af9a2b957ad0eaf8\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E During the first reading debate on the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill, our speaker Kevin Hague was in somewhat of a quandary. The bill had been made public\u2014and, therefore, able to be read\u2014only a few minutes before the debate started. The Green Party, in protest against not having notice, voted against the bill at the first reading. It is often difficult with omnibus bills to work out whether to vote in favour or against, because there are often a number of things we agree with, as is the case with this bill\u2014such as the improvements to the workings of the Customs Service\u2014and some things we are much more questioning of. On balance, we are voting against this bill, but we recognise that there are a lot of good measures in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI will go through, firstly, the SmartGate measures that will be brought in, I understand, on 3 December. The Green Party is supportive of more efficient processing of people crossing the Tasman between Australia and New Zealand. I understand that the purpose is to allow people on both sides to go through proper processing\u2014immigration checks, etc.\u2014only once, rather than twice, which is certainly an advantage. Also, there are security issues with SmartGate. Making sure that one has the right person going through is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have some questions as to where biometric identification might go. At present, the system envisaged, and implemented in some respects, in New Zealand is the facial recognition system, where certain points of a person\u2019s facial features are, by a photograph, compared with what is on the chip in the passport. But the Green Party is concerned that that might be extended to other forms of biometric identification. During the debate on the Immigration Bill, which has now passed through the House, we put forward an amendment to the effect that iris scans should not be used at airports. An iris scan is a much more intrusive form of biometric identification that is coming in around the world, including, I think, in Australia. We are wary that the SmartGate system might use the iris scan system or, even worse, another system that is being brought in. It is not necessarily used just for identifying people, but it could be part of the SmartGate system. It is often called the naked scanning system. A person going through the sorts of things we go through at airports now is scanned and a naked image of the person taken. I have seen articles around the world in various papers complaining about this system as a grave intrusion on the privacy of people. One writer complaining about it said: \u201CIt is often said that if you\u2019ve got nothing to hide, you\u2019ve got no need to worry.\u201D, but in the case of naked scanning we do have something to hide. So the Greens are hoping biometric identification does not go too far down that track. And it is good that a manual alternative for people has been put in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is also the problem of electronic proof, and we have seen this just last week with the debate over council car-parks in Auckland and the gaining of people\u2019s credit card numbers. Upon first analysis, that does not seem to have been done by people skimming the machines that the credit cards are put in; somebody has got in behind the system. That can be a problem with relying too much on electronic identification. Someone could get in behind the electronic system, and change round the electronic part of the identification\u2014for example, mucking up the chip in a passport so that the SmartGate system thinks it is John Smith when it is really John Jones. Someone could even get into the computer database. That is always possible. One of the problems with electronic systems is that people completely rely on them; they think that if people have gone through the electronic system, they must be OK. There is not the same vigilance, the same looking for human characteristics, for the suspicious indications that people might give out, that our customs officers and immigration officers are trained to recognise at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other question that has come up and has been spoken about by other speakers is biosecurity. There is a bit of tension between a SmartGate system, where the whole point is to rush people through, and proper biosecurity checks. The person doing the biosecurity check has to do the same biosecurity check on all the people coming through, but there might be some nervousness about holding up people coming through the SmartGate system, because that might be seen to be undermining that system. That nervousness can be complicated by what Chris Carter has just talked about. There seems to be a loss of staff at the frontline. He mentioned the figure of 50 staff lost from our airports. I think it is important to keep up the biosecurity checks at our airports. It will be very bad if we let that down, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, there is reference in the bill to improvements in the X-raying of containers. The problem at the moment is that the overwhelming majority of containers are not given any serious biosecurity inspection, and that has resulted, I think, in a number of the nasties that Chris Carter talked about coming into New Zealand. Even X-ray systems have a limited use in relation to true biosecurity with smaller items. The X-ray systems are very good. I have seen them in operation. They are time-consuming but they tend to pick up people-smuggling. They pick up the bigger items such as people, or other big objects that are not supposed to be in a container. The X-ray system picks them up. But little nasties and things like that require closer inspection, and I do not think we are doing quite enough about that at the present time. That is one of the reasons why the Greens would like this bill to go much further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is the question of powers of arrest. It is a tricky question, because, clearly, at the airports themselves often we have to detain people pretty quickly. A police officer might not be around, so the officials having that power has validity. There is a certain caution among the Greens about extending that power to 7 days beyond the suspicion that a person may be about to commit some sort of crime. It is understandable in certain situations where, like on sea craft, the customs officer cannot get to the people immediately, and that is one of the reasons, I think, why that 7-day provision was put in. But if one has advance suspicion, then I think that, in general, a police officer should be obtained to go with the customs officer, so that the customs officer does not develop a consciousness that over those 7 days he or she can do the arresting. Wherever possible, we do not want to turn customs officers into police officers and to give them all the hassles of doing the arrest process themselves. I do not think it is what the customs officers would want. The commentary on the bill as reported back from the Government Administration Committee states: \u201CUnder section 174(3) a Customs officer who arrests a person under section 174 must, unless the person is released sooner, as soon as practicable call a constable to his or her aid and deliver the arrested person into that constable\u2019s custody.\u201D That is, clearly, trying to get away from customs officers doing much more than very immediate arrests then quickly passing the person over to the police to be taken into custody and charged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the Greens are worried about with this bill is that it tends to streamline the regulations around the free-trade agreements in operation. The Green Party has been a bit concerned about those free-trade agreements lowering tariffs to zero and undermining New Zealand manufacturing. We do not want a streamlined process of regulation that is out of the purview of Parliament and that detrimentally affects New Zealand industry. We have seen that over just the last week with Griffin\u2019s and some of its iconic biscuits; some of its operations are now going offshore. Also the production of various Cadbury\u2019s bars, like Moro, or whatever they are, is going offshore. I think the Government\u2019s approach of total deregulation\u2014sometimes through free-trade agreements\u2014the high dollar, and everything else that goes with the completely open-market, free-trade approach of the present Government, is being helped by the implementation of this legislation. That is why we are voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022baab04d6f070434e9e040981125d518a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00222135f23654a14ccab467289464948038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222135f23654a14ccab467289464948038\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee on the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill to take the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d66ffa0e73284df1a98fd18c9902db3d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022100317e04c1d43438737c3455814c816\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00220616497254834721bf6348d508931180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220616497254834721bf6348d508931180\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Labour supports the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill for many reasons. One of the key reasons, of course, is that our people Rick Barker and the Hon Nanaia Mahuta have worked on this issue for some years. This bill clarifies and enhances the Customs and Excise Act in terms of law enforcement capability. Its provisions include enabling customs officers to stop and search a vehicle, to use reasonable force to gain entry, and to search a vehicle that is unattended or abandoned. The use of reasonable force is needed in order to open a vehicle if it is locked or unattended. Otherwise, customs officers cannot search the vehicle without a court order, and in the time it takes to obtain a court order the prohibited goods could have been disposed of and the people responsible for the vehicle could be gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThis bill is important particularly for communities that have a serious concern about illegal drugs and P coming through our borders. The bill also allows customs officers to arrest any person committing an offence under the Customs and Excise Act, whether or not that person is on a craft. These provisions simply streamline enforcement processes by the Customs Service and aid efficient law-enforcement procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe bill also creates a new offence of making a false allegation or a false report to the Customs Service. If anyone does so, he or she commits an offence and can be prosecuted. The bill allows customs officers to use future technologies to detect tampering with containers or interference with goods and packages. Using future technologies is seen as being more effective than the currently utilised customs seal. That is especially pertinent now, as I have been made aware that the United States is making rapid advances in the use of technology for its trade security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere are, however, a couple of things that I seek clarity on from the Minister of Customs. The first is that the bill gives customs officers the power to arrest not only when reasonable cause to suspect has arisen but for a period of 7 days after the offence. That raises the question of why the period is limited to 7 days. What happens if the offender immediately goes to ground and is not located for another 3 months? Do police and customs officers stop searching for the offender after the 1-week period has expired? We want some clarity on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make concerns new section 274A, inserted by clause 22. It allows the chief executive to arrange for the use of automated electronic systems for any purposes that he or she sees fit in exercising a power. Labour asks where the checks and balances in this process are. Although Labour members have the deepest respect for our customs and border control officials, we do not believe that it is a good thing to have a chief executive with unfettered power. We would expect checks and balances in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAs I said before, Labour members support the bill. We will be supporting the amendments. In the third reading debate we will emphasise our concerns about the issues around P and other drugs. My colleague the Hon Chris Carter has also highlighted our concerns about ensuring that our borders are well-resourced. Despite having SmartGate\u2014a tool that customs officials need\u2014the job of the Customs Service is still labour-intensive. That is what I understand from what I have learnt about the service at the border. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ECutting the budget of the Customs Service may send to criminals some signals that we do not want to be sending. The signals could say to them that we are putting our customs officials and border agencies under strain. It could mean that we are sending them the signal that they can compromise our borders. That is not what we want. I will leave it at that, and give my colleagues the opportunity to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00226bebe9eeebc24af5a522bdbe3a304af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bebe9eeebc24af5a522bdbe3a304af5\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to answer a couple of things that Su\u2019a William Sio raised, and also to try to head off a little of what Chris Carter may raise, because he raised it in his second reading speech. First of all, with regard to the 7-day arrest period, the reason that customs officers have the 7-day period of arrest from an offence having been committed is that, simply, in a number of cases now, we actually track offenders into the networks rather than arresting them at the border. We may catch a very low-level functionary\u2014for example, somebody who is a mule\u2014who has been paid $1,000, but who does not even know he or she is doing anything wrong. We really want to try to work back through the networks to catch the Mr Bigs at the top. We want customs officers to have the ability to put a track and trace procedure in place, in order to follow the person. It may be that after the fourth or fifth day of watching motels and hotels, we want to make an arrest. The 7-day limit is just for practical purposes. If we want to go beyond that, customs officers can get a warrant if they wish, or by that stage we could have the police actively involved and it may be that the police would make the arrest. I think the 7-day limit is set at a practical level. It gives customs officers the chance to track and trace people into hotels and motels, and then to make a decision about whether to arrest them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWith regard to the other one, I do not think there is anything sinister about empowering the chief executive to use some electronic systems. I tell members that one of the biggest problems we have in this portfolio is that crooks can nearly always get better equipment than we can. For example, a number of people who have been arrested recently for the customs offences of bringing in P and precursor substances to pseudoephedrine have been found to have a funny little scanner sitting on the seat, which they had bought at Dick Smith Electronics for $200, and with which they could scan the entire analogue bands of all of the customs officers, hear them talking, and know what they were doing. So we need to be able to move to some new digital equipment\u2014some stuff that cannot be interfered with; all of those things\u2014along with new computer systems and GPS tracking devices in packages, as well. Technology will become our biggest friend in the fight to try to deal with some of the real nasties. I think that answers the two questions raised by the member for M\u0101ngere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn the case of Chris Carter, I want to make matters really clear, so he gets them sorted out. He was quite firm in his second reading speech about some of the biosecurity issues. He talked about the painted apple moth and the varroa bee mite, and about his concern about the impact of biosecurity breaches on the conservation estate. But I tell the member that the Customs Service does not do that work. The service did not have a budget cut in Vote Customs. The cut was done to Vote Biosecurity. It was done in Mr Carter\u2019s portfolios as Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Forestry, and the biosecurity people, the ones in green whom we see when we come through the airport. I know everyone will know\u2014those who travel a lot, like Mr Carter\u2014that the customs guys are in dark navy blue, and the Biosecurity New Zealand guys are in the green shorts and socks. We do both the customs and the immigration roles at the border. We check people to make sure that they are the right people, and so on, but once they have come through, picked up their baggage, and headed on down, the Biosecurity New Zealand people do the checking of them as they go through the border, to make sure that their bags do not contain fruit or any of the other pests and bugs. That is not a Customs Service role, so this bill has no impact on that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI want to confirm\u2014well, not confirm; members know this, as was announced in the Budget, and they saw the figures from a press release. I tell members\u2014and I really want to get this very clear, as well\u2014that the error rate with SmartGate is actually lower than the rate of human error. If someone dresses up with a bit of hair colouring and different glasses and puts a beard on, a human being who is working busy shifts and processing a lot of people could look at that person, think he looks all right\u2014that his photo is from 5 years ago or so\u2014and through he goes. But with SmartGate the machines measure the distance between the eyeballs, from the tip of the nose to the eyeballs, from the tip of the nose to the chin, between the ears, from the top of the forehead down to the chin, and so on, and one cannot actually forge that. One cannot change that, no matter what one does. That is why SmartGate does not work for people under the age of 18: their faces are changing in shape and size as they grow, but from 18 years on they do not change. These machines will fast process the very low-risk, mainly good-quality New Zealand and Australian citizens and get them out of the place. That will free up the front-line customs officers to do the role that they are best trained for, which is to identify the bad people, to deal to them, to move them off into secondary-line processing, and to make sure that we keep our nation safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9523cdfeec4ba79e7bd502f2b4e030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9523cdfeec4ba79e7bd502f2b4e030\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the Minister in the chair, the Hon Maurice Williamson, making some points on the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill and reminding us again that biosecurity staff have been cut. I hope that he, as a person who is partly responsible for the security of our borders with immigration and customs, was a strong lobbyist to see that biosecurity did not lose 50 workers and over $4 million, because I am sure Mr Williamson, like all New Zealanders, wants to see our borders safe and secure, especially as he has partial responsibility for them. He made some good points about SmartGate, and about the work that customs and immigration are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI seek an assurance from the Minister that some of the practices that have not been very fair\u2014in fact, that have been quite discriminatory by, particularly, immigration\u2014will be dealt with. For 6 years I was the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, and on a number of occasions during that time I and my colleague Nanaia Mahuta\u2014and, prior to that, Rick Barker\u2014met with different migrant communities to reassure them that racial profiling was not taking place via customs and immigration officers, because a large number of cases were brought to us. To be absolutely fair to the chief executives of the Immigration Service and the Customs Service, I tell members that they engaged with these communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EHowever, only a month or so ago I received a delegation of Pakistani New Zealanders, who raised the case of a young Pakistani man in Auckland who had been through New Zealand immigration several times in the last year. He has just graduated as a nurse and got permanent residency as a result, making a contribution to our country as a firm and committed New Zealander\u2014or a person seeking to become a New Zealander. He was plucked out of a queue just a month ago, taken in for 3\u00BD hours, and subjected to a lot of questioning and a lot of rude and abusive behaviour while his partner was waiting for him on the other side, unable to access any information about this young man. Sadly, I have to say to the Minister that in the 6 years I served as ethnic affairs Minister, this was not a unique case. I thought we had dealt with these cases, but this case was just a month ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EHopefully this technology will make sure that there is no more of that racial profiling. Sure, we have to keep our borders safe, but at the same time people who are New Zealand residents should not be subject to 3\u00BD hours of intensive, rude, and aggressive questioning while their families are waiting to see them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002202e7d88d7a6f4fb4bbd0b490043b16c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202e7d88d7a6f4fb4bbd0b490043b16c1\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take only a very brief call on this bill, which is relatively non-controversial, and is supported on all sides of the House. I had the opportunity to sit on the Government Administration Committee that considered this bill and made a few amendments. I had some concerns as we began the select committee hearings on this bill, and I will talk about a couple of those briefly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party agrees, obviously, with the need to stay up to date with the latest technology to keep our borders safe. We need to protect against things such as the menace of P. Often smuggling is undertaken by organised gangs with very sophisticated techniques, and the Customs Service needs to have the tools to keep on top of that threat. One of the things that we talked about for a reasonable amount of time at the select committee was the powers of arrest that this bill deals with. I guess I just wanted to receive a reassurance in the committee that we were not, in fact, extending the powers of arrest or giving new powers of arrest. Having looked at all of the evidence on that, the committee was satisfied that the bill does not extend those powers, and it clarifies what can be done under the existing legislation. We spent quite a lot of time probing that in the committee, to make sure that that was, indeed, the case. We were relatively comfortable that it was perfectly all right, although other members have raised issues around the 7 days, which I think the Minister in the chair, the Hon Maurice Williamson, has subsequently addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe also questioned some of the technology\u2014I can see Jacqui Dean over there; she was also interested in this particular area\u2014just to make sure that the technology was at least as effective and at least as reliable as human checking. I think we found, as the Minister has just pointed out, that in some cases the technology is actually more reliable than human judgment as to whether the person who is presenting himself or herself is actually the person on the passport. We spent a considerable amount of time considering the issue and we are relatively comfortable about that, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe final things that we spent a reasonable amount of time talking about, that I can recall, were issues around search and surveillance, and making sure that this bill did not give a whole range of new search and surveillance powers that were not there previously, particularly with regard to containers and the fitting of electronic devices on containers. Having gone into that issue in some detail, although we had some questions around it still, I think we were comfortable enough that this bill did not confer huge additional search and surveillance powers, which, of course, is a debate that is being held in another part of the parliamentary process at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo overall I think the committee was pretty comfortable with this bill. We had some questions and issues along the way, but I think the Committee can be reassured that the select committee interrogated the officials on this bill quite thoroughly. I think as a result this is a good bill, and I commend it to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 100 and 104 in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill and the Tariff Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002227aa6938dc164a2fbbc882ab48828cdd\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002227aa6938dc164a2fbbc882ab48828cdd\u0022\u003ETariff Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad1f52e8103149058b4c67a2cf7e5585\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8ff8c67b574aed9cee00b725afce74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8ff8c67b574aed9cee00b725afce74\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill and the Tariff Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Given that it is only a few minutes since I gave my second reading speech on this legislation, I have decided to bail out of my prepared third reading speech, save the House a lot of pain and misery, and just cover again what I think are two or three key points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe biggest part of this legislation is the implementation of the SmartGate technology, which I am proud to announce. I have seen the kiosks at Auckland Airport. They are in, we have been testing them, and they are done in lovely black and grey with the silver fern on them. New Zealand and Australian e-passport holders will be able to come through the gates from 3 December when we launch this stuff at Auckland Airport, and early in the new year we will be implementing them at the airports in Christchurch and Wellington. It means that ordinary citizens\u2014good-quality people; New Zealanders and Australians with nothing to worry about\u2014who are travelling across the Tasman Sea with their families and so on will be able to walk up to these machines, bang their passport on, and get their facial recognitions confirmed. The gates will open, through they will go, and they are down straight to the customs hall that much quicker. The reason for that is these machines can work quicker than humans. As I said in the Committee of the whole House, they have a lesser error rate. But, more important, we want to free up the very, very good customs officers, who I am terribly proud to be the Minister of, to go about and do their job that they do so well; that is, to find where the really serious offenders are, where stuff is being hidden, and go after it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI never cease to be amazed at just how under attack we are at our border. I was at the mail centre the other day with customs and I saw something that literally took my breath away. It was a beautiful little pack for a baby. It had beautiful baby toys, some baby oil, some baby powder bottles, and it was all decked out beautifully. It was sealed and had a lovely card from a grandmother to her loving granddaughter, wishing her well. I looked at it and said: \u201CSo what?\u201D. The customs officer said that one bottle was talcum powder and the one beside it, which was absolutely exactly the same, was pseudoephedrine. Somebody had completely replaced the entire contents and resealed it. If one looked at it, one just could not tell. But we had a particularly vigilant customs officer who, after having looked at scans and X-rays and so on, thought the powder densities were slightly different. After some checking was done, he or she got it. That war goes on every day. We just finished a big operation that they were dealing with. That is what I want customs officers to be freed up to do, and that is what this legislation will do by allowing electronic machinery to process people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThere are quite a lot of minor amendments to provisions that were really quite silly. One example is that a person could not be arrested if he or she were not still on the aircraft or the ship. It is quite silly; if a person makes a jump, customs officers have to get the police to do the arresting. The amendments tidy up some quite silly stuff, such as giving customs a 7-day period to track and trace somebody. It is a good bill. I again thank all members of the Government Administration Committee for being as cooperative as they were and for doing a very good job of tidying it up. I think we clarified earlier on the reason for one of my Supplementary Order Papers. It was to make sure that some technology did not have to have a human equivalent, for example, back-office processing, but a passenger coming through will always have that alternative if he or she chooses. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022befdc430bade43fcbee26ab184f2e444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022befdc430bade43fcbee26ab184f2e444\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E As I did not spend very much time in my second reading speech on the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill, I will spend a bit of time highlighting the importance of our border. I will illuminate the community concerns around drugs that have gone through our borders, share some concerns with the Minister of Customs, and issue some challenges to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt is no secret that over the past several decades our borders have changed significantly, with increasing demands on border control agencies due to a number of factors. Travel passenger numbers have increased significantly. In 1993-94 there were, I think, 2 million passengers, and now we are looking at 9 million people coming in and out during the past year. Our trade volumes all continue to rise as, with each free-trade agreement New Zealand signs up to, there are increases in the volume of imports and exports and increases in the number of transactions required to meet our international obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAnother factor that threatens our borders arose from the disaster of 9/11 in New York. This and the subsequent Bush war on the Arabian region has meant that every country has been forced to stand in a heightened sense of alertness as the world comes to grips with the recognition that our borders are vulnerable to the rising tide of international terrorism, which has become both frequent and more intense. Then in May of this year every New Zealander was shocked to hear that one of our own senior police constables had been shot dead in Napier, and several other police officers and members of the public had been fired upon. I think that tragedy highlighted that illegal firearms are crossing our borders and are sold and exchanged here in Aotearoa. Most of us thought that that kind of stuff belongs in the movies, out there in the USA or in Africa. Sadly, that experience and other similar tragedies involving firearms show that our borders are not immune to illegal weapons passing through undetected. Our borders are also not immune to the ongoing criminal activities of counterfeit goods and products being smuggled through. We are also vulnerable to breaches in our biosecurity and to human trafficking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most significant factor for me is the very real threat that organised crime groups pose to our families and our communities from the illegal drug trade involving P or its precursor. These crime syndicates are becoming increasingly diverse and sophisticated in their methods of smuggling. In recent months the Customs Service, working with the other border agency, succeeded at intercepting significant drug hauls at our border. Earlier this month the Customs Service intercepted a drug haul with an estimated street value of up to $6 million, and six people were arrested. In September the Customs Service seized 80 kilos of a precursor that would produce 24 kilos of P with a street value of around $20 million. I understand that this was the third-largest haul of its kind seen in New Zealand. An Auckland man was charged with this offence. In March a drug haul of about $4.8 million was intercepted and three people were arrested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI use these examples to illuminate the reality of the drug problem that is moving through our borders. It involves millions of dollars, and people will kill to protect their money. For whatever reasons, people in our community buy the drug. It is being sold all over New Zealand. It is a huge challenge to our law enforcement agencies and they face real dangers when dealing with this illegal trade. However, it may be more alarming to many New Zealanders that, despite the best efforts of the Customs Service and our border control agencies, we are able to intercept only some illegal drugs crossing our borders. There is a strong indication that a significant volume passes through our borders undetected. The MP for Hunua raised the point in the post-Budget select committee meeting that he had a seen report that stated that only 20 percent of illegal drugs coming over our borders are intercepted. At that same meeting the Minister of Customs himself said he did not know how many drugs go through our borders unnoticed. He said further that he was resigned to the Customs Service not being able to inspect every package, container, boat, or person that enters New Zealand\u2019s borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ECommunities throughout New Zealand that are aware of the misery that P and other related drugs cause on our streets and in our homes want to know that this Government will do all it can to make sure our borders are safe and secure from illegal drug-trafficking. We want to know that organised crime syndicates will be caught, and that those responsible for this scourge on our society will be prosecuted. The public wants to know that the Minister of Customs is on the job doing something about protecting our borders. We want to know that the Minister is supporting our border control officials and that he himself has committed to stopping drug trafficking across our borders, because when the drugs cross our borders, they reach our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour is concerned that $2 million was cut from the Customs Service in a line-by-line review. We were concerned also when it was highlighted by Paul Holmes in his Q\u002BA interview of the Prime Minister on 11 October that the Government cut some $3.57 million from the border control budget. The New Zealand public wants to be assured that our borders are not under strain from lack of resourcing from this Government. That is the challenge that we are issuing to the Minister of Customs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225da5135885794a13aa5bbdb58123abfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225da5135885794a13aa5bbdb58123abfc\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the third reading debate on the Border (Customs, Excise and Tariff) Processing Bill, which has been divided. In his speech in the second reading, Green member Keith Locke raised his concern with regard to free-trade agreements and the amendments contained in this bill. The Government Administration Committee looked very carefully at those issues, and clause 23 of the original bill inserts a couple of new sections into the Customs and Excise Act to allow provisions contained in, or prepared under, international trade agreements to be incorporated by reference into regulations under the Act. This means that instead of repeating the provisions in the Act the regulations can simply refer to them. The provisions would be given legal force by the regulation but would not be set out in the regulations themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe objectives of the legislation are: to ensure the orderly administration of the law, to modernise legislation, to meet new technologies such as SmartGate, to rectify legislative gaps and inconsistencies identified within border legislation, and to fully meet our international obligations including, very importantly, those relating to cross-border crime. This legislation achieves those objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI thank the members who sat on the select committee for their good work. I also thank the officials who assisted the committee. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00227c48c165250846c5a7dc9db252af8b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c48c165250846c5a7dc9db252af8b63\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise on the third reading of this legislation to assure the Minister that the Labour Opposition will support it, for many of the reasons outlined by my esteemed and honourable colleague Su\u2019a William Sio, who is the Labour member for the seat of M\u0101ngere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EWe have touched on the importance of keeping our borders secure. The Minister who is responsible for the Customs Service works in close dialogue, we hope, with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, which is responsible for biosecurity issues, and the Immigration Service, which, of course, is responsible for the flow and regulation of visitors as well as returning New Zealand citizens and residents. Working together in that partnership is critical, not just for the security of our border but also for the economic growth of our country and the sense that everybody passing through the airport is a respected and valued member of our community. During the second reading I spoke about my experiences as Minister of Conservation and the importance of keeping our unique and natural environment, as well as our agricultural industry, safe from pests, which is the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI wanted to talk to the Minister a little bit today and to say that customs officials have a great responsibility put on them. They have to deal with a huge range of issues, from drugs and other illegally imported substances, to check that illegal goods are not being brought into the country, to ensure that New Zealanders are obeying the law around those issues, to keep our border safe, and to make sure that commerce flows freely, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI mentioned briefly in the Committee stage that I was privileged to be the Minister for Ethnic Affairs for 6 years, and during that time concerns were raised with us not just about immigration but also about customs and the profiling of different groups of New Zealanders who were deemed to be more of a security risk, whether that be through terrorism, which is the issue that Mr Su\u2019a William Sio touched upon, or whether they were more likely to be at risk of being importers of drugs, illegal firearms, or other illegal substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EFor an efficient use of any service there has to be profiling: who would be most at risk. In respect of drugs, for example, it may be young people who may have a very limited income and who may be coming from at-risk places\u2014places where illegal substances are produced\u2014and we would expect there to be greater scrutiny. Who could challenge that? But the issue I had to deal with as Minister for Ethnic Affairs was members of the Muslim community\u2014some 50,000 New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc1c0aa8c8b4f46b9995317e780a31e\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: 56,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fdd93fee19b4e26800289c54889520e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Our Muslim MP, and my good friend and colleague, Dr Ashraf Choudhary, has just reminded me that 56,000 Muslims live in New Zealand. They are New Zealanders who are respected members of our community. They are law-abiding, honest Kiwis who, like all the rest of us, are just trying to get ahead in life. They actually come from over 80 different nationalities\u2014from Bosnians to Somalis, from Indonesians to Fijian Indians. Some of these people have felt, as they have moved through customs and immigration, that they have been profiled. I am sure that my good friend Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi, who is an MP from the Punjabi community here, would be able to attest to that in relation to Sikhs, who of course are not Muslims. In fact, the history of Sikhism has been to struggle against the Mogul Muslim rulers of India. It has been a long tradition, and I guess that in the past Dr Choudhary\u2019s ancestors fought against Mr Singh\u2019s, but they are good friends now, as we would expect Kiwis to be. But, because the Sikh community wears turbans, they felt they had been profiled following the September 11 attacks on the Twin Towers, the London bombings, and the so-called shoe bomber who attempted to blow up a trans-Atlantic plane. The Sikh community felt doubly outraged about this because it felt it had been labelled into a particular set of terrorists, and that because they wore turbans there was a simplistic view that they somehow might be terrorists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI met with the Sikh community several times in South Auckland, along with the Minister of Customs and the Minister of Immigration, to see how we could address this issue. We heard many anecdotal stories of people who felt they had been profiled. We thought we had put the whole issue to bed, then at Queenstown Airport a cabin crew member refused to admit a Sikh man wearing a turban on to the plane. That was some 2\u00BD years ago. We hope that the Customs Service has now learnt from that experience, and that all New Zealanders, whatever their religion or ethnic origin, are deserving of respect and that people should be challenged only where they pose a genuine and real risk to the security of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI want to use this opportunity to say to the Minister and to the House, and to anybody who is listening or watching Parliament today, that we in the Labour Party are totally committed to respecting all New Zealanders, regardless of their ethnic or religious background. We urge the Minister of Customs, as well as the Minister of Immigration and the Minister responsible for biosecurity and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, not to racially or religiously profile any New Zealander coming through our airports, or any New Zealand resident, because only people who pose a genuine risk to New Zealand should be intercepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI also heard my colleague Su\u2019a William Sio talk about the danger of drugs. I was in Tonga 2 weeks ago with Phil Goff, the leader of the Labour Party. We went to see how Tonga and Samoa were dealing with the after-effects of the tsunami. At the meeting Chris Kelley, the New Zealand police officer who is now in charge of the Tongan police force, talked about the real issue of the network in the Pacific where illegal drug substances are being funnelled around the Pacific and into New Zealand and Australia. The challenge for our customs, immigration, and agriculture people grows ever greater. I am pleased to see that new technology is being introduced here. There will be an enhanced ability to search, intercept, and prosecute. These are all good measures. I am pleased to see the technology to facilitate more effective and efficient passenger flows, because, as well as these safety measures, it is good for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI say to the National-led Government that these are good ideas. They have their genesis in much of the work we were doing when Labour was in power. We should not short-change these services by cutting their budgets. The Customs Service, the Immigration Service, and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry must not have their budgets cut. These new technologies\u2014these good measures\u2014will not work if the people are not there. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d23eaaa54984481babe5f4c4c0d60153\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill and the Tariff Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222eabff99b121467493b7e9394467bc36\u0022\u003ETaxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a7eaff056324ccea09a44bbac0ed38a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022c25db583c5f64806b511a871fb0ca475\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c25db583c5f64806b511a871fb0ca475\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee on the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill to take the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237980892f1414bf3bdb7e9be4cdafa1f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e291174158d9485c8d18a13454984d6f\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 5, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002223942706874641c7b06f321663536546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223942706874641c7b06f321663536546\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a brief call on this combined Committee stage of the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill. I reiterate the comment that we made in earlier readings that Labour will be supporting this bill. It is a bipartisan bill that carries on the good work of the Inland Revenue Department in tidying up the tax laws and adjusting the resident withholding tax rates, in particular, to the new tax rate regime. It is all good and worthy stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut, as we said in earlier contributions to this debate, it raises an important issue of principle, and it is upon that issue of principle that I wish to briefly concentrate this call. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, through his officials, brought to the Finance and Expenditure Committee the proposal that the default rate on resident withholding tax be changed to mirror the top tax rate. The rationale for that was clear: it would most strongly incentivise taxpayers to advise their bank if they did not belong to the top rate, because otherwise they would be paying way too much tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut as a matter of principle\u2014and going back to those very ancient principles that there be no taxation without representation and that the people\u2019s House be the sovereign body that gives the authority for taxation\u2014members of the select committee asked how many New Zealanders would be required by this bill to pay tax that they were not actually liable to pay. It asked how many would be caught, as it were, with the collateral damage of taxation by being inadvertently put on an inappropriately high resident withholding tax rate. The answer was, in the first draft, hundreds of thousands. I cannot recall the exact number; members will forgive me. But hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders would have found themselves overnight put on a tax rate to which they did not belong and, therefore, they would have lost income at a time when many New Zealanders, many hard-working families, are feeling the pinch, and every dollar counts. The committee was willing to work cooperatively to make sure that that unintended consequence did not happen, and credit goes to the chair, Craig Foss, and to the members all around the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe officials were happy to work with the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association\u2014it is not often that we see the Bankers\u2019 Association in the position of being good Samaritans to taxpayers, one might say, but we are very grateful for its input\u2014and they and the officials worked out an alternative plan, which was to have the default rate set at the modal rate. That is the rate most people pay, the middle of the bell curve, which is the 21c rate. That is more fair and balanced. That means that a much, much smaller number of New Zealanders would be paying either too much or too little. The unders would balance out the overs, and the incentives would still remain for new accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EApproval was given by the committee for the bill to come back to the House with that amendment, on two clear provisos. The first was that the committee was very clear about the principle that New Zealanders should not be taxed inadvertently at rates higher than they were liable to pay, and that no Government of any stripe should put taxpayers in that position. Secondly, we would expect the officials to work closely with banks and other financial institutions going forward to ensure that taxpayers are fully informed and are given every opportunity, and that the way is smooth for them to adjust the rates. It will require some compliance costs for members of the public, and there was some merit in the argument that for that reason they could go down to the lowest default rate, but in the end we settled on the modal rate. It was a good process of compromise, and a much better design. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI am left, I have to say, with one slightly troubling question, and the Minister might like to take a call on this. How did it get as far as that? How did it get to the point where a select committee had to sort out the fact that hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders would be paying too much tax, tax that Parliament had not assented for them to pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223446581d97264eafb2fbee97670798a6\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: It was a test. We passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcfbdb99c7ab48af80d9ef00c65dfba5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It was a test to see whether we were noticing, chairman Foss says. It was a test to see whether we were awake. Well, this is a test to see whether the Government is awake. That is not a good thing to do. The Opposition passed that test. If it happens again, it will look like the Government is playing fast and loose with the Magna Carta and playing fast and loose with ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI think that is probably enough said, but I would be interested to see whether the Minister will take a call and explain to the Committee what advice he received on that matter and whether it was knowing forethought or unknowing accident that meant that that egg was caught just before it hit the floor, as it were, of the legislative process. But it did not break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally\u2014and I know that my colleague Stuart Nash is very, very keen to make a contribution on this bill; he has been prepping for it for quite a while\u2014with regard to the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative, I think New Zealand feels like it has a collective hangover today, because it is the day after that dreadful emissions trading scheme bill went through the House by the skin of Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s nose. It just got through, and it is a very sad day for New Zealand. I cannot let the opportunity pass to say that we remain absolutely convinced and convicted that generations of New Zealanders will look back on us this week and ask how and why we did that. The provisions of this bill around the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative make it very clear that the Income Tax Act will end up bearing part of the weight of that future obligation. It is real money, it is real debt liability, and it is real bad news for our children. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16c0595cc8146c4a091b84a579f0fe5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16c0595cc8146c4a091b84a579f0fe5\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to reiterate all of what my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe said and just elaborate on it a little bit more. He was dead right. But I suppose that one of the things that is slightly concerning, which Mr Cunliffe alluded to, was the fact that it did get as far as the select committee. Mr Foss said that it was a test. He said that in jest. It was a joke, but I suppose it outlines the problem when we have all this legislation being rushed through under urgency. This Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which was great, so we were able to pick up the problem. But a lot of legislation is being rushed through the House under urgency that has not had the scrutiny of a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299671e8f54a446a7907a6c36492de972\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Half the ETS bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0c56d02bcb416eabd9df64c917b34a\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Half the emissions trading scheme bill\u2014exactly. That is of huge concern. If we had not picked that up, well over 3 million New Zealanders would have been overtaxed. That sounds like a lot, because people will say that there are only 4 million New Zealanders in this country, but we have to remember that we are talking about resident withholding tax here. That means tax paid on the money in bank accounts that have been set up for children who are 1, 2, 3, or 5 years old by their parents, because if we have bank accounts, it does not matter how old we are, we are liable to pay resident withholding tax on the money. That means that everyone with a bank account\u2014not just people earning salaries and wages, but everyone with a bank account\u2014would have had to pay that tax. The vast majority of those people are actually on the 12.5 percent rate, not on the top 38 percent rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThat is why the Labour Party completely agrees with the due process that every bill is supposed to go through in this House\u2014that is, first reading, second reading, Committee stage, and third reading. We end up with robust debate and we allow New Zealanders to come in, stand in front of a select committee, prepare their submissions, and voice their concerns about, or often their support for, various legislation. That is robust democracy in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EOn that note, I will speak briefly about Supplementary Order Paper 93, which the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, has put forward to amend the bill. I will speak about new clause 70B, which the Supplementary Order Paper proposes to insert, the one about GST on inbound tour package services. This amendment is quite unusual, because it clarifies that GST applies to inbound tour operators. This was a fuzzy bit of the law. Some people paid GST and some did not pay GST, but there was real concern over the intent of the law. Obviously, if we have a law that is as unclear as this, then we need to do something about it. What this law does is to say that from the period from 1 July 2007 to 30 June 2008, a zero rate will be applied. So in essence it is saying that if an inbound tour operator has a concern with this and approaches the Minister of Tourism\u2014who is the Minister of Tourism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221278c631f26349e9a435936053e81a21\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0359feda2194ffa9a3b81b4ce7778de\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is John Key; that is right. How this happened is that John Key, as Prime Minister, I understand, attended a conference of tour operators, and he was asked about this. He said he would sort it out for them. That was seen by many as the Prime Minister saying: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it. I\u2019ll sort it out.\u201D He has finally learnt that, in fact, what he has to do\u2014like every other politician from Prime Minister down\u2014if he wants to make a law change is go through due procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe legislation is actually saying that in that period a zero rate will apply. That sets a slightly dangerous precedent, because if people have already paid GST, like a lot of people did, they will get a refund. If they did not pay it, then that is fine: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it, guys. You\u2019ll be right.\u201D The precedent that may set is that other people who have concerns about the law or who might see a little bit of fuzziness will say that, goodness, if those people can have a retrospective holiday from their tax, or get their tax wiped retrospectively, then so can they. Labour obviously supports this bill. We will support this Supplementary Order Paper because it is probably the right thing to do, as the law was so unclear. But I would just highlight the fact that it sets a little bit of a dangerous precedent, and certainly Labour would not like this to be done too often. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELet me talk about some other things in the bill. As Mr Cunliffe mentioned, resident withholding tax was the main gist of this bill. It was the area where the vast majority of the debate was centred. But there are other things. The portfolio investment entity rate was changed to line up with the company tax rate. Those rates were put in place with KiwiSaver, and the jury is still out on whether the portfolio investment entity is the right structure to have. There were submissions on that at the select committee, but we decided that anything to do with portfolio investment entities, apart from rate alignment, was not part of the committee\u2019s ambit, so we did not discuss it. The tax rates on secondary employment and extra pays are being aligned with the new primary tax rates. That is what a lot of the bill is about. Further, there is a new 12.5 percent tax rate for secondary employment income, and extra pays are being introduced. Again, that just aligns it with the bottom marginal rate, which is important for people who have two or three jobs. They are paying the secondary rate of tax, and they then have to go through the process of claiming refunds. That change is important. We talked about the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative, and Mr Cunliffe also talked about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIf I could digress ever so slightly, I would say that Mr Foss stood up yesterday and said that he was disgusted at some of the language that was being used. I sat there, thinking \u201CGoodness me!\u201D. I will say what disgusts me. It is the fact that we are putting on a $100 billion liability. What can we say to our children, when they say: \u201CDad, what went on in Parliament back then?\u201D. We will say: \u201CWell, son, we spoke against it. We fought against that, but that was a National bill.\u201D But that will be changed anyway, because Labour will be back in Government in 2 years\u2019 time. Members should not worry about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Income Tax Act 2004 and the Income Tax Act 2007 to include a forester who receives emission units under the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative, with its special income tax rules to apply to a forestry business\u2014it is quite technical. There are changes to the beneficiary income rules. There is electronic communications. Electronic communications allow the Inland Revenue Department to send out electronic notices if there are no reasonable grounds for the department to believe that the communication would not be received by the person concerned. We debated this quite a bit. The issue was what is the definition of \u201Creasonable grounds\u201D. We understood the logic behind this. The Inland Revenue Department sends out, I believe, something like a million pieces of mail a day. Is it a million a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c49b8f76f54f5b9b961b4be4ad4a65\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: 100,000 a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222776587285914dedbd8cfbeeb95f6be1\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, whatever it is, it is a huge amount of mail. What this will hopefully do is streamline the process. It is an efficiency measure. But we just need to be clear on the definition of \u201Creasonable grounds\u201D, and, therefore, in what circumstances a person could reasonably be expected to have received an email. Someone suggested that with the modern email systems these days, if someone opens an email it automatically sends something back, saying that it has been received. Unfortunately, the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s email system does not allow for that. Hopefully there will be money to change that, so people can confirm the receipt of messages, which would make things a lot easier. The tax recovery obligations were good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn relation to personal tax summaries, the Tax Administration Act is being amended to provide the Inland Revenue Department with more flexibility. Again, that is to allow a reduction in compliance costs and provide efficiency for the taxpayer and for the department\u2019s administration. Again, that goes to the heart of the problem of 100,000 pieces of mail a day being sent out, and reduces that. There was slight concern expressed, however, by submitters like KPMG that it would disengage people from the tax system, or they would not automatically get a tax summary, and therefore they may not be aware that they are owed a refund. We hope that the Inland Revenue Department will manage that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere was the correction of minor errors. That was a proposal that allows the Inland Revenue Department the discretion to allow taxpayers to correct minor errors in tax returns. It is about $500 at the moment. Some submitters suggested it should go as high as $10,000, but the committee heard the department\u2019s submissions on that and took its advice. The committee believes it should stay at around $500. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EOne issue that we debated for a little while was the requirement to pay disputable tax, which will itself be non-disputable. The Inland Revenue Department currently has the power to require, in exceptional circumstances, certain taxpayers to pay tax in dispute before the dispute is decided. That is to address risks such as flight risk. We understand this has been put into force only twice in the last 10 years, so it is quite rare. But KPMG in its submission said: \u201CWe believe that this change is more than just a remedial amendment, as it removes the right of appeal available to taxpayers. We struggle to see how any amendment which removes the ability of taxpayers to dispute the commissioner\u2019s position can be properly described as remedial.\u201D We talked to the Inland Revenue Department about that, and the department assured us that it is used only in absolutely exceptional circumstances. We said, OK, we would agree on it, but, again, it is something that we would like to monitor. In effect, it takes away the right of every taxpayer to challenge in a court of law the commissioner\u2019s decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225847b6eed3fe48cdae84db117e5126ee\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: No, it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c894cd236874d2e8d49c59efc037f18\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it does. In the end we decided that the risk was worth this legislation going ahead. We heard KPMG say that it is sort of OK, so we stuck with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec122265fca54afda4c0ade0dd36ff7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec122265fca54afda4c0ade0dd36ff7e\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to respond to three points that were raised in the preceding contributions. Firstly, with regard to the resident withholding tax issue, let me say, with due respect to Mr Cunliffe, that this is a slightly more complicated issue than he portrayed it to be. I think the solution the select committee has come forward with is a very elegant one. It was not quite as straightforward in the original drafting as he made it appear, but I am very comfortable with the committee\u2019s recommendations and I think it has done the bill credit in that respect; I acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe GST issue that Mr Nash raised has quite an interesting history. It goes back to about the year 2000, when the law was first changed to clarify a number of issues regarding the treatment of various aspects of tourism for GST purposes. One of the consequences of that was this ongoing debate about facilitation fees. Effectively over that period, between 2000 and the present, roughly half of the tourism sector thought it was subject to GST and roughly half thought it was not. There had been an ongoing dispute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI forget precisely which year it was, but 2 or 3 years ago the Inland Revenue Department issued a ruling that appeared to give comfort to one side of the argument and not the other. That led to some controversy and confusion. I can recall, as a member of the previous Government, having discussions with the then Minister of Tourism, Damien O\u2019Connor, about how this issue might be resolved. We were not able to make progress on it before the election. It simply ended up as unfinished business at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe matter then came back on to the table this year, and the Prime Minister, as Minister of Tourism, became involved. Effectively, we have said: \u201CLook, we will give you that one year. From 1 July 2008 everyone will pay the GST. We will not have the debate about whether the fees are subject to GST. From that point forward, everyone will be in, but there will be a 1-year holiday to give people breathing space.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere are winners and losers in this. Those people who have dutifully paid since 2000 might well feel a little aggrieved. On the other hand, the dispute is a finely balanced one, and I think that the solution that has been worked out is reasonably elegant. I take the member\u2019s point about setting a precedent. I think this is one of those rare things that does not come into that category, but we do need to be mindful that we do not open up that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issue of electronic communication and the ability of people with regard to email is an important one. It is much bigger than just the particular issue that is set out here. Mr Nash got close to it when he started talking about the paper war; the 25 million pieces of correspondence that the Inland Revenue Department sends out a year, or 100,000 pieces a day. I have been saying in recent speeches that we will have to move away from a paper-based system. It is inefficient, it is hopeless, and it is years out of date. We need to bring our tax administration into line with the requirements and the abilities of the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen we put future inland revenue systems and technology in place in the late 1980s and early 1990s, emails and websites were all things for the future. What we are trying to do now, pending the much bigger change, is make it more possible for people to communicate in the way in which they would do their own banking and every other form of activity. I know it is not in this bill\u2014it will be in the next one\u2014but if the member wants to have a look at what we are doing with the student loan administration he will get a sense of what lies ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI conclude on this point. I am grateful to the Committee for its consideration. I did promise the House when the last tax bill was considered that this one would be different; so it has proven to be. I am mortified that the Supplementary Order Paper is so short after my last effort in that regard, and that the bill itself is so brief, but I am grateful for the consideration that the Committee has given it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 93 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 15F subclause (5);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 15H(11) \u201CSubsections (1) to (10)\u201D and substitute \u201CSubsections (1A) to (10)\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 69 \u201CSections 70 and 71\u201D and substitute \u201CSections 70 to 71\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022174261e293134fb28107759669540082\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 5, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 5, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf603661f3204ea59935fe813eb352e3\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000824\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000825\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a1b3d51d6164239bf2799dc84f7ad9e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022163d2d63373145dd928ec57cf0e16c5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022163d2d63373145dd928ec57cf0e16c5c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. This bill\u2019s content is technical in nature. It introduces a number of measures to fine tune earlier changes to the tax rules. I will speak very briefly about these. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe principal feature of the bill is the alignment of the resident withholding tax rates on interest with recent changes to personal tax rates and the 30 percent company tax rate introduced last year. As a complementary measure the bill also aligns the portfolio investment entity tax rates with the new personal tax rates so that portfolio investment entity rates will be 12.5 percent, 21 percent, and 30 percent. It also adjusts the income thresholds at which the portfolio investment entity rates apply so as to ensure that people who invest in portfolio investment entities are not disadvantaged relative to direct investors. Other minor changes have been made to help reduce compliance costs for taxpayers and to smooth the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s administrative functions, including allowing the Inland Revenue Department to accept corrections of minor errors in subsequent returns, and allowing tax agents more time, if needed, to allocate beneficiary income. In addition to these changes the important Supplementary Order Paper 93, in which several urgent tax measures are proposed, has been added to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe first of these measures proposed under the Supplementary Order Paper deals with the longstanding debate that has surrounded the GST treatment of facilitation services for tour packages for overseas visitors to New Zealand. Under the changes proposed, these services will be subject to GST at the standard rate of 12.5 percent, but the legislation also includes a transitional provision allowing inbound tour operators to zero-rate these services for the year ended 1 July 2008, which will help minimise any adverse affects on any inbound tour operators, including those operators who did not zero-rate services for that year. The second item proposed under the Supplementary Order Paper makes changes to the supplementary dividend rules in the Income Tax Act to allow newly signed tax treaties with Australia, Singapore, and the United States to come into force. The third set of changes introduced by the Supplementary Order Paper, and which I should make reference to, will ensure that the recipients of New Zealand\u2019s superannuation and the veterans pension will remain subject to New Zealand tax while they are travelling overseas, but if they decide to live overseas the pensions will not be subject to New Zealand tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to record my thanks to all of those who have worked on the passage of this bill so far. My particular thanks are due to the Finance and Expenditure Committee members for their consideration of the bill, for passing the test, and for the recommendations that they put forward to improve the outcomes for taxpayers. I also thank the drafters and the policy officials who worked on the detail of the bill, those who made submissions on the changes it proposes, and to everyone who took an interest in it. Finally, I thank those members of the select committee and those members of the House who have contributed to the debates on the bill for their input and for their contribution to its progress. I am more than happy to commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229cfae4367e8f4dae862629411142f4a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cfae4367e8f4dae862629411142f4a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Labour supports the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill. Labour believes this bill is a technical bill that continues one of Labour\u2019s work streams and makes some necessary changes to the underlying tax law. In the Committee stage debate the Committee has considered the role the Finance and Expenditure Committee played in ensuring the House was not presented with a bill that would have unfortunately ended up with some 3 million New Zealanders paying more tax than they legally owed. The Committee reflected on the fact that that would have been an unwise and improper precedent for this House to set and it further reflected that it shows the importance of a proper select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Revenue in his closing remarks in the Committee stage quite rightly said that this was a tax bill unlike the previous one, and we thank him for that because the process in the previous tax bill, the international tax bill, was a bit of a shocker, I think is the technical term, and we faced inordinate pressures. But at least the material for that tax bill was presented to the select committee, albeit with a very tight turn-round, and that does stand in contradistinction to the process followed by the emissions trading scheme bill that was considered yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is on the record of this House, in the annals of this House, that the emissions trading bill was deadlocked in its select committee and discharged back to the House without amendments, and, indeed, without even seeing a departmental clause by clause report or a redline. That was added to by the fact that very substantial Supplementary Order Papers, including a late amendment around a very important Treaty clause, were presented to this House for consideration on the day on which the final bill was passed. We are happy that this was not a bill like that bill, and happy that the select committee could play its role, which was with the help of officials and a very useful submission from the New Zealand Bankers\u2019 Association to make a significant change around resident withholding tax default setters. So we have ended up going for the default rate at the modal income tax rate of 21c in the dollar, not the 38c in the dollar that was originally proposed by the Minister. He has been appropriate in accepting the recommendation of the committee. It should not, in the best of all worlds, require a committee\u2019s intervention on a matter such as that, but we are very pleased that the committee was able to work together to achieve the change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are a range of other matters in the bill. I do not think the House needs us to go through all of them. There has been comment before about the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative, the tax treatment of that, and what defines a forestry business. It has been a matter of consideration at the Committee stage and in the second reading debate that has thrown into relief the provisions of companion legislation around climate change. My colleague Mr Nash has taken us through a summary of other important changes around beneficiary income rules, electronic communications, tax recovery obligations, personal tax summaries, GST and waste disposal levies, and various other remedial matters. It remains at this third reading to commend the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn closing, I guess it is not a bill that is likely to see itself on the front page of a major daily newspaper, but New Zealanders may reflect upon the fact that in giving this bill good consideration, this is Parliament doing its job cooperatively, and, indeed, consensually, in the interests of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022999ffb5c7df74a24b2d32204fc68c86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022999ffb5c7df74a24b2d32204fc68c86f\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It is tempting, but I will not take the previous speaker\u2019s bait. I will speak briefly and pick up on the acknowledgment and thanks of the Minister of Revenue and the previous speaker to all those who got the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill to its third reading. I also acknowledge the cooperation of members and parties in facilitating the bill\u2019s progress through the House tonight to the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMost of the issues were discussed during the second reading, and, as the previous speaker also noted, there was consensus all round on this particular bill. I thank the Minister for his continuing with the general tidying-up, cleaning up, modernisation, and synchronisation of our various tax laws and regulations within New Zealand. He is keeping a constant eye on the big picture and, of course, a constant eye on what is going on in Australia when carrying out the reviews that our various pieces of legislation must undergo. There is also a reflection on modern technology, by hopefully saving the taxpayer a few stamps with the 100,000 mail-outs per day from the Inland Revenue Department. I say that is absolutely unbelievable. I think the person who will not like that is, interestingly, the new appointee to New Zealand Post, who might have somewhat of an interest in the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ENational commends the bill to the House. Again, as Finance and Expenditure Committee chair I acknowledge the officials and advisers who got us to this point. I will pick up on the point that other members have made, that the committee worked very well together to come up with solutions or amendments to the bill that were accepted by officials, and by the Minister and his colleagues. It is a great example of good process, and long may it continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00229357e5fff34c4e65b591baec6e0ea40d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229357e5fff34c4e65b591baec6e0ea40d\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker, Craig Foss, said that there was consensus all round on the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill. I will clarify by saying that actually there is not complete consensus in this House because the Green Party will be opposing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EPeople have suggested that it is simply a technical bill, and it is true that there are some technical issues in here that the Greens support. The bill clarifies issues around, for example, the waste disposal levy, which the Green Party supports, but overall the consequential changes in this bill are changes to the original bill. It was introduced in mid-December 2008, just after the election, and it was a bill that we strenuously opposed. These changes flow out of that original bill, and for that reason the Green Party opposes them. We oppose them because we oppose the giving of very large, very substantial tax cuts to the well-off, while giving absolutely zero\u2014zilch\u2014to those who earn under $40,000 a year. We believe it is immoral and unethical, because by doing that we are further increasing the already huge gap between rich and poor in New Zealand and the incredible inequality we have in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe extraordinary thing is that thanks to the policies of the 1980s and 1990s, New Zealand has become a world leader in inequality. New Zealand may not be a world leader in many things any more, but it has become a world leader in inequality because our society is becoming more and more unequal. In fact, it has become more unequal at a faster rate than any other country on the planet. That is extraordinary. It is something we should be deeply ashamed of, and this bill, which amends the original bill, will continue to make our society more unequal at a faster rate than that of any other country on the planet. This bill is making amendments to a bill that gave very substantial tax cuts to the well-off and nothing to those who earn under $40,000 a year. Through that original bill, we effectively will force New Zealanders to borrow around $10 billion over the next 10 years because of those tax cuts to the wealthy. This means that we will have to borrow more from future generations to fund those tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI also point out that not only is it unethical to have this sort of tax policy, but also it is bad policy. When tax cuts are given to those who are paid under $40,000 a year they tend to spend that money, so it is stimulatory, whereas when tax cuts are given to the very rich, as the original bill did, in general they tend to save that money. The Green members think that although this bill contains a number of consequential and technical amendments that we do not oppose, we opposed the original bill and, therefore, we oppose these amendments to that original bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f8c3a0387446e190209b2b65f70034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f8c3a0387446e190209b2b65f70034\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very brief call to raise three points of particular interest to the M\u0101ori Party in the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill. The first point is that the bill\u2019s definition of \u201Cforestry business\u201D includes Permanent Forest Sink Initiative activities so that all foresters receive the same tax treatment. It is highly appropriate to be considering this legislation in the light of the new emissions trading scheme that was passed into law last evening with the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill. The M\u0101ori Party was proud to advocate for the creation of large scale permanent forests to breathe new life into an environment that has often been taken for granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EPlanting permanent forests is an intrinsic good in its own right, and it will also reduce the amount of money that taxpayers will be liable to pay to meet this country\u2019s financial obligations under the Kyoto Protocol. The afforestation provisions that the M\u0101ori Party negotiated as part of the amended emissions trading scheme legislation will enable iwi to plant permanent forests on Crown land and to accrue carbon credits in return. The Permanent Forest Sink Initiative encourages indigenous tree planting by issuing assigned amount units for carbon uptake. We have also asked for a review of the initiative with particular emphasis on the impacts on landowners. A review of the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative would increase the incentives for all landowners to plant trees. We are pleased, in the interests of equity and fairness, that the inclusion of the Permanent Forest Sink Initiative in this bill means that all foresters receive the same tax treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe second point I raise is the amendment to ensure that GST is payable on the waste levy imposed by the Waste Minimisation Act. The M\u0101ori Party supported every stage of the Waste Minimisation Act as it was taken through this House by former members the late Rod Donald and Nandor Tanczos. Our policy position acknowledged that waste disposal can damage and destroy the mauri, the life essence, of our land by reducing or destroying the life-supporting capacity of soils. The establishment of a waste levy incentivises us all to try to think carefully about the amount of waste we take to the landfill. It encourages us to recycle, reuse, repair, respect, and replace. We in the M\u0101ori Party believe that peoples have a fundamental right to clear air, land, water, and food. This right means being protected from the production, release, and disposal of toxic and hazardous waste. It also brings with it a collective responsibility to ensure that we use the resources of the Earth in ways that preserve the planet for current and future generations. We are pleased to support the amendment to provide for GST being payable on the waste levy imposed by the Waste Minimisation Act 2008, as part of the long-term plan to protect our environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EFinally, we note the importance of the amendment to the definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D in the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985. The definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D will be amended to ensure that the activities of charitable and not-for-profit bodies that do not involve the supply of goods and services in exchange for payment, such as collecting or making donations, are not subject to GST rules as they are not performed for profit. The M\u0101ori Party really supports this move, which is another significant step in reducing the barriers that can get in the way of enabling the not-for-profit sector to continue to contribute so significantly to the well-being of our communities. We therefore are pleased to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1eee765f68848949f964e443d827a0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1eee765f68848949f964e443d827a0d\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill for the last time, in this debate on the third reading. It is basically a technical bill, but it is a very necessary one. I was a little surprised and disappointed to hear the Green speaker Sue Kedgley say that they are voting against the bill. The Green member on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Dr Russel Norman, never once voiced any concern or any prejudice against this bill. Perhaps if he had at any stage, we could have addressed some of his concerns. But not once did he articulate any concerns, so it is a bit of a shame to hear that the Greens are voting against it. I thought we had full consensus on the committee. The bill is not about cutting tax, at all; it is just about aligning tax rates. In fact, this bill will probably make it a lot easier for taxpayers. But that is democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs articulated by the chair of the committee and my colleague David Cunliffe, I would like to thank the Inland Revenue Department officials and the independent advisers for the work they have done on the bill. It is greatly appreciated, and I think we have good legislation here. People talk about technical and non-technical bills. However, in my very brief experience, every tax bill is technical in nature, because tax, by its very nature, is complex. Even though the mandate of the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Inland Revenue Department is to make tax legislation as simple as possible, tax is not simple. Simple is an education Minister standing in front of a secondary school teachers union conference and reading them a children\u2019s story, and telling Parliament it was a very good read. It might be at the same intellectual level as those on the Government side of the House, but I tell members that it is not for those on this side. Simple was also putting forward a bill that will cost every New Zealander around $45 a week up to 2050\u2014such a liability of a legacy for future generations. That is simple, but this tax bill is not simple. That is why we are very reliant on the advice and the excellent work done by officials and advisers, and I thank them very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis bill has \u201Cremedial matters\u201D in its title, because it contains remedial amendments to the Income Tax Act 2007, the Income Tax Act 2004, the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985, the Tax Administration Act 1994, the Income Tax Act 1994, and the M\u0101ori Trustee Amendment Act 2009. That is why I am a little disappointed in the Green member, because this bill makes tax just that much easier for taxpayers. It meets the six tests that any tax legislation should meet: economic efficiency, revenue adequacy, revenue integrity, simplicity of administration and compliance, coherence, and equity and fairness. As I mentioned, and as all my colleagues alluded to, there were concerns over the equity and fairness of the bill, and the Labour members of the committee have a slight level of disquiet over the fact that so many people\u2014I think it is around 1.4 million New Zealanders\u2014will still be overtaxed on their interest as a consequence of this bill. People asked where the 1.4 million figure comes from. Children from 0 years of age and all the way up, whose parents have set up their bank account, pay resident withholding tax as well, so there are a lot of taxpayers who are affected by this. However, I think we have come to a good compromise. There are a lot of people who will be overtaxed, but the Inland Revenue Department has assured us that it will put education strategies in place that will mitigate the risk of overpayment. We have accepted that, and we will follow progress with interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe main issue that the bill addresses is to align resident withholding tax on interest paid to individual taxpayers with the new marginal tax rates. I spoke at length about it in the second reading debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6dd21220f8344d2b7aac81a48ecdb55\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Very well, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b75873507a147ebbf4b6dc9b6df2ec9\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, I say to the senior whip. I urge the 1.4 million New Zealanders who will be taxed at the incorrect rate to contact your bank and get your resident withholding tax rate changed. That includes you, Mr Speaker; I said \u201Cyou\u201D on purpose there, because it also includes every MP. So make sure you contact your bank and sort that out. There are other provisions of this bill that did not receive nearly the time and effort put into the resident withholding tax issue. They were debated, though, when debate was necessary. They have been spoken about in this House today and in the first and second reading debates. I probably do not need to allude to them again. As I mentioned, I think this is good legislation, and I commend it to the House. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219027730c287471abc020ff0130ec539\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Consequential Rate Alignment and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228540087a119e4b7ba1cfa754801fa9a7\u0022\u003ECrimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022416b3b2d47a944b389e844dd09d81615\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000855\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 17 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00222fcf8d933e3948fb94f450822c8ce092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fcf8d933e3948fb94f450822c8ce092\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to continue speaking in the second reading of this important bill, the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. It is important that we consign the provocation defence to history. It is anachronistic, and, as I was saying as the House concluded its business the other night when we were dealing with this matter, this particular defence allows the charge of murder to be reduced to a finding of manslaughter. The word \u201Cmanslaughter\u201D was reported in some of the feminist literature of the time as being made up of two words: \u201Cman\u2019s laughter\u201D. That is because, in the days when I knew about this defence when I was a law student, there had been a very high-profile case where a husband, Dr Minnett, had killed his wife, Leigh Minnett, not actually very far from Parliament. The claim that he had made was that he had been so outraged and incensed, a rational response to an attack on his masculinity that his wife\u2019s affair had brought about within him, that he was compelled to go and get his gun out of the wardrobe to shoot and kill her. As a young law student I, of course, found it utterly reprehensible that he was essentially able to get away with murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that I found one of the old Broadsheet articles on the killing of Leigh Minnett, and I thought I would just read into the record the last little bit of that particular article, because I though that it really did sum up what was so wrong with the defence of provocation. It states: \u201CThe worst that can be said of a woman is that she sleeps around. Leigh was publicly tarred with this brush. The worst insult to a man is just the opposite: that he can\u2019t get it up and it\u2019s not worth getting up anyway. This is such a dreadful thing to say that it excuses even killing the speaker. The double standard has never been more clearly demonstrated than it was in the shooting of Leigh Minnett.\u201D That is a really compelling statement, and it is why the defence must go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESince that time, though, we have found the defence used in other circumstances. At this point I want to refer to the killing of Ronald Brown. I referred to him in the first reading debate on this bill, but want to mention him again, because his case will be\u2014now we know this\u2014the last case where the defence of provocation was successfully pleaded. His case sums up everything that is wrong with the defence, but from a different perspective from that applying to Leigh Minnett, where her husband was given a lawful excuse, as it were, to take her life and evade a conviction for murder, which really should have been applied in that case. In this case the defence was that an individual\u2019s sexuality was threatened. The person who took Ronald Brown\u2019s life was fearful that he was going to be the subject of a homosexual advance. Again, I say there is nothing that justifies the taking of another life, and, certainly, to plead that in these circumstances is reprehensible in the extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI would have liked to say that the reason that the Ronald Brown case did not attract the media attention that Sophie Elliott\u2019s murderer attracted was that the accused person in the Ronald Brown case did not give evidence at the trial. But deep down, I do not believe that was the reason. I believe that the media should reflect on what they have done in terms of the coverage they gave to Sophie Elliott\u2019s murderer. These two cases stand in stark contrast to each other. I think that people need to look into themselves, and to ask themselves the question of whether the public interest was served by dishing up the narcissistic, personality-disordered individual whom we had presented to us night after night on our television screens, and by almost no mention being made of the individual who took Ronald Brown\u2019s life. I think that that did not serve the public interest. I believe that what occurred was disrespectful to the family of Sophie Elliott and to her memory. I also think it was disrespectful to the family of Ronald Brown and to his memory, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ENothing will reverse what happened in any of the cases where this defence has been pleaded. But I do think it is important for people to say there may be something that this Parliament can offer up to the victims\u2019 families, and that is the knowledge that their experience in the courts will now galvanise the response of this Parliament into what, I hope, will be a unanimous vote of support for repeal. The facts that we are now up to the second reading, and that we will shortly move on to the Committee stage and the third reading tonight, means that this day, 24 November, will go down\u2014it is technically 24 November; though we know that it is really 26 November, the date will be shown on our record, because we are in urgency, as being 24 November\u2014as the day before the day that we acknowledge internationally violence against women. I think that tying this fact to the campaign that we have all been involved in, on both sides of the House, in the It\u2019s Not OK campaign means it is really special that we are able to take this defence off our law books at such a time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI believe that we will have plenty more opportunity to debate this bill as we go through the Committee stage, and then on to the third reading. I think the Law Commission\u2019s report on this matter contained a very powerful statement when it referred to whether we should have a generic partial defence to murder. My very strong view is that we should not. The report said this: \u201CThis has the potential to reduce homicide to a lottery: it is an invitation to jurors to dress up their prejudices as law\u201D. We must remove the reality that our jurors had been given an invitation to dress up their prejudices as law with this defence, and I welcome its removal from our law books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u002207eec390d2b245e8907b927e606609ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207eec390d2b245e8907b927e606609ae\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to take a call in respect of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill, because it is the timely removal of a partial defence of provocation, which no longer really has any applicability in our law. The reason it was initially installed within the law was that there was a death penalty, so it was a way that somebody who might have brought about what some would say was a justifiable or excusable homicide, to some degree, was able to be accommodated within the sentence, i.e. manslaughter, for killing another human being. Some years ago the Crown moved to take away, firstly, the death penalty, later on, mandatory life imprisonment for someone convicted of murder, and then the presumption of a 10-year sentence. This is the time for the defence of provocation to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWe can imagine a scenario where a person we can all relate to\u2014for instance, a parent coming on to a scene where his or her child has been assaulted or abused in some way\u2014loses his or her rag, as some would say colloquially, and kills the offender. Some would argue that that should be excused in some way. I think that in this country we need to acknowledge homicide for what it is, the killing of one person by another, and murder as the intentional killing of one person by another. If someone kills somebody and intended to kill somebody, regardless of the circumstances there is a name for that offence, and it is called murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAllowing the sentencing judge to take account of provocation at the time of sentencing is the most appropriate course for the courts to be able to take in respect of that. We have seen, for instance, in the last couple of years a failed suicide pact. An elderly gentleman who had brought about the death of his wife, and had then failed in his attempt to kill himself, survived, was charged with murder, pleaded guilty because he quite rightly said to the court that he did intend to bring about the death of his wife, and was sentenced to a community-based sentence of home detention, because he was not seen as a threat to anybody else in the community, and nobody could argue that that was not the correct penalty and did not correctly fit the crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is a shame that the legislation has taken so long to get here. The barriers to provocation, having been removed as a partial defence to murder, have been lifted for about 4 years now. It is unfortunate that the previous Government was distracted with a different agenda, but I am pleased to see that we have wide support from across the House for this legislation. I commend it to the House. It is timely that this now passes into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002278c90fbadad74f8bb55f71b505abbf2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c90fbadad74f8bb55f71b505abbf2b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E On the evening of 20 July 2003, 24-year-old Phillip Edwards was walking down K Road in central Auckland. A convertible driven by David McNee, aged 55, approached Edwards. After a discussion, Edwards agreed to perform a sexual act in front of Mr McNee for a fee. Edwards had just been released from prison and was in need of cash. Edwards then agreed to return with McNee to McNee\u2019s home for a shower. While he was there, there was further low-level sexual activity. At some point during that activity, Edwards reacted violently towards Mr McNee and began beating him around the head and the face. He stated at the trial that he had become very angry, and that after the initial assault, everything became a blur. Edwards then covered McNee\u2019s body with a blanket, robbed his home, and took his money, his alcohol, and his convertible. Pathologists reported to the court that McNee was struck between 30 and 40 times. The assault was so severe that McNee could have survived for only 15 minutes after Edwards had stopped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI raised that story at the beginning of my speech to indicate that that is the kind of crime committed by somebody who is able to successfully invoke the partial defence of provocation. I raised the case in that detail to indicate the strength of feeling that reverberated around the gay community immediately after that case and immediately after other cases that have been discussed in earlier readings of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. I raise that case today to give a real-life example as to why what Parliament will do today is a very important step and a very, very necessary step. People like David McNee, Ronald Brown, and Jim Curtis, who have been subject to successful defences by those who have committed assault or murder against them, need our respect and our thoughts today, as do their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI also pay some respect to everybody who has supported this bill\u2019s passage through the House, particularly my colleague Lianne Dalziel, who spoke shortly before me. Lianne Dalziel and Charles Chauvel brought forward a private member\u2019s bill to remove the partial defence of provocation. The Government has stepped up as well, and I congratulate Simon Power on having led that move. I also congratulate the select committee on bringing the bill back to the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will make one thing very clear. I have had a lot of contact with members of the public about this bill, and for the most part there has been widespread support for what Parliament is doing today. However, there are some people who feel that passing this bill is in some way a knee-jerk reaction to two very recent cases, those involving Sophie Elliott and Ronald Brown. I think it is very important to put on the record the fact that this issue has been discussed for some time. I do not want to put it on the record in a political way, as perhaps the previous speaker, Chester Borrows, did. The partial defence of provocation was considered by the Law Commission in 2001 and again in 2007. The move to implement the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations is timely, but it is not a knee-jerk reaction. In my view, this defence is something that has been a stain on our law books for some time, and I think that reacting as a Parliament, as we are now, is quite considered in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI also make it absolutely clear that we need to consider the notion of a gay panic defence, and the fact that it somehow or other has been able to last on our statute book for some time, in the wider context in terms of society\u2019s view about sexuality. I do not want to spend too much time on this topic, except to say that, particularly in the recent case of Ronald Brown, it is important that we think about the kind of defence that was mounted by the defence counsel. The defence counsel sought to portray Mr Brown\u2019s lifestyle as a gay man as being somehow or other a \u201Cdark thing\u201D. That was the phrase used\u2014that it was a dark part of his life. I think that kind of rhetoric and language does not speak well for the views of some people in our community, and I hope that our being able to take the defence of provocation off the statute book and away from even being able to be considered in terms of a defence will start to address those sorts of views and issues. I think this is a very timely thing for us to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will make reference to a couple of things that the Justice and Electoral Committee discussed when it was dealing with this bill. The first is the question around whether there should be any amendment to the Sentencing Act to explicitly allow for the consideration of the defence of provocation. The committee decided that that was not necessary at this stage, because these issues can be considered by judges under their existing statutory discretion. I certainly accept that people far more learned in the law than I am are able to bring forward that idea and that we should accept it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think we also should remember that the Law Commission had a second recommendation when it came to issues around this defence, within the concept of establishing the Sentencing Council to draft sentencing guidelines. Labour was looking into implementing the Sentencing Council towards the end of its term in Government, and I urge the National Government to consider it again. I think it would help to ensure consistency in sentencing whilst leaving flexibility for judges to depart from the guidelines where they believe that should be the case. I think that the National Government should look at having another investigation into that option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we look at community attitudes towards this matter, we see it is quite clear that the community supports this bill. We have seen a number of commentators come forward and make sure that we are all aware that essentially, as my colleague Charles Chauvel put it, we have to let people know that they simply cannot get away with murder. I think that is vitally important. As earlier speakers have already said, this is murder. As my colleague Lianne Dalziel said, we can look at situations in recent times, such as the trial for the murder of Sophie Elliot. The accused took the stand, and the abhorrence of the community grew as the victim was simply not able to defend herself. To see night after night on the news the pictures of somebody sitting in the dock and conveying that kind of attitude was something that the public of New Zealand found repugnant. I think it is important that the public was able to come to that decision by seeing that happen. But, equally, if we take ourselves back to the case of Ronald Brown, as Lianne Dalziel mentioned, we did not see the same reaction. Perhaps that was because Mr Ambach did not take the stand, but I also believe it speaks of some attitudes in our society that perhaps we, as a society, need to further address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to stand in the second reading debate and support this bill. I believe that it marks a real advance for us in terms of attitudes towards victims and towards the families of victims, in making sure that we lift, in a sense, the debate we have in our community around how we treat people who are murdered and how we treat their families. As I come towards the end of my speech, it is probably timely to note the names of the people I mentioned before, and I will add a couple of other to them: Roy Jackson, Charles Aberhart, Ronald Anderson, Jim Curtis, Barry Hart, David McNee, and Ronald Brown. These people did not have the dignity of the law that should have surrounded them. They did not have the support of the law that should have surrounded them, and today this Parliament goes some way towards addressing the hurt and concern that they and their families felt. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6d7309b14524424a810d5dec9f9c276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6d7309b14524424a810d5dec9f9c276\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. The purpose of the bill is to repeal the partial defence of provocation. At a time when the Government is sending a strong message that people must find a way other than violence to manage their anger, it is inappropriate that anger be singled out as an overriding factor justifying conviction for manslaughter rather than murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EHistorically, the sole reason for the provocation defence was to avoid the mandatory murder penalty, effectively rewarding the person for his or her lack of self-control. Section 102 of the Sentencing Act 2002 now allows the presumption of life imprisonment to not be adopted on the grounds of manifest injustice. The historical rationale of section 169 of the Crimes Act 1961 has, therefore, been abolished. Juries have encountered difficulties in determining how an ordinary person would have acted when confronted with provocation at that level of gravity. The defence assumes that ordinary, reasonable people who are confronted with severe provocation will react with a homicidal loss of self-control, when, in fact, ordinary people do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe Government considers that the partial defence of provocation is fundamentally flawed. It effectively provides a defence for lashing out in anger\u2014not just any anger but violent, homicidal rage. It rewards a lack of self-control by enabling an intentional killing to be categorised as something other than murder. The trial process, including the sentence, is often deeply traumatic for the families and friends of the victim. The distress caused to those close to the victim will generally reduce any defence argument, as the provocation issue is confined to sentencing. We believe that the risk that a jury will acquit altogether when confronted with an intentional but provoked killing is very low. Juries will still sometimes convict for manslaughter if an alternative defence such as lack of intent has been run, but they are not likely to let an offender walk free on the ground of sympathy alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe repeal of the partial defence of provocation for murder from the statute book is the preferred option. It is not proposed that provocation be considered as an express mitigating factor at sentencing. Rather, the sentencing judge will be able to use his or her discretion under the Sentencing Act 2002 to consider whether life imprisonment would be manifestly unjust, given the particular circumstances of the case. If the sentencing judge determines that the life sentence is justified, he or she can take into account the existence and degree of provocation, together with all other relevant aggravating and mitigating factors, in fixing the length of the minimum non-parole period. The repeal of partial defence would make factors such as the alleged sexual behaviour of the victim and the nature of the relationship with the defendant less relevant in the crime. The emphasis upon such factors in evidence results in significant amounts of distress for the families and friends of the victim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I make the point that this is not a knee-jerk reaction to the recent Weatherston case. The matter has been on the Minster of Justice\u2019s work programme for some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d583851a8546e49f8494c8c9a4b59b\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI\u003C/span\u003E: Although recent cases have certainly drawn the partial defence of provocation into the public eye, the Law Commission first recommended its repeal in 2001, and the defence was the subject of a stand-alone report in 2007. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a968cddecb134de6969442441208cc04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a968cddecb134de6969442441208cc04\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Justice and Electoral Committee has recommended that the partial defence of provocation should be repealed, and that is a sentiment that has been echoed by the vast majority of the submitters on the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. It is also a position I have campaigned for since before my entry into this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThere was a handful of submitters who raised some concerns about repeal and supported the retention of the defence. I would just like to use some time in this call on the second reading debate as an opportunity to respond to those concerns, particularly as I understand that one party in this Parliament, the ACT Party, has decided to adopt the position of opposing repeal. No doubt, judging by Mr Hide\u2019s presence in the House tonight, we will hear from him as to why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2259f4078864f76887127df14cf62d8\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe or maybe not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1d3120da0540249f6ced340d303f05\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: As he says, maybe not. Maybe the issue is just not important enough for him to speak on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESome submitters were concerned that certain marginalised groups of people would be unfairly disadvantaged by the removal of the defence, and those concerns were echoed back in 2000 when the Law Commission first began work on the reform of criminal defences. Attention was specifically drawn to battered defendants\u2014victims of family violence who kill their partners because they perceive that if they do not, they or their children will be seriously harmed\u2014and also mentally ill or impaired defendants. In the case of battered defendants, it was said by some submitters that there needed to be some acknowledgment of lesser culpability for what would otherwise be labelled as \u201Cmurder\u201D. Some submitters at the select committee felt that the defence of provocation was, if not the best way to do this, at least one way through which the law currently recognises that there are different degrees of blameworthiness that can be attached to a killing. I agree that it is inappropriate to label the victims of family violence, who truly are left with no alternative but killing, as \u201Cmurderers\u201D and that some law reform is needed in this area. But retaining provocation is not the appropriate way to deal with this issue, because the evidence, in fact, is that in many cases it works against, rather than for, actual or potential battered victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESimilarly, concerns were raised that defendants who are mentally ill or impaired could be unfairly disadvantaged by the repeal of the partial defence. But, as the Law Commission\u2019s excellent report on this matter, dating from late 2007, demonstrates, the use of the defence relies on the defendant\u2019s ability to display the self-control of an ordinary person before the defendant is able to show that he or she lost that control. That, at least, is the legal or jurisprudential theory behind the defence. This means that defendants of reduced capacity simply do not fall within the criteria of those who are able to make use of the defence. So if a group of people simply cannot use a defence, it is obvious that its repeal will not cause them undue harm or disadvantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAnother submitter, the New Zealand Law Society\u2014ordinarily a body entitled to great respect in law reform matters, but, sadly, I think on this occasion acting as a trade union\u2014opposed the repeal until such time as it is accompanied by the introduction of a \u201Cdegrees of murder for diminished responsibility\u201D measure. As I indicated, I understand that that is now the position of one party in this Parliament. Before I briefly address the argument that was put forward by the society, I would like to record my thanks to Simon Power and the Government for sticking with the form of the bill that Labour\u2019s spokesperson on justice, Lianne Dalziel, originally introduced. It repeals the partial defence of provocation without such a modification. In a decent society, \u201Cdiminished responsibility\u201D is not justifiable. Murder by lashing out is just as abhorrent as murder in cold blood. Murder conducted in self-defence or excused due to mental incapacity, automatism, or insanity is already covered by legitimate defences that recognise the differing levels of culpability that are manifestly evident in those particular situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFurthermore, even if we were to replace provocation with some sort of \u201Cdiminished responsibility\u201D defence, we would still face the problems that we face now: confusing jury direction, confusing legal tests that plague the defence, and complications that inevitably lead to appeal. So to argue for the replacement of one confusing area of the law with an even more confusing one is an omission on behalf of the New Zealand Law Society. As I said earlier, I think it is a manifestation more of that organisation acting as the union for the criminal defence Bar than proposing sensible legal reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI hope that, for all the reasons outlined by all those who will speak in support of this bill tonight, it will continue on its speedy passage through the House. I believe that it is an important step towards a society where violence is condemned. Circumstances where unremorseful killers are given the opportunity to publicly impugn their victims and where the victims of crime are made to feel unsafe are hallmarks of a society that we need to move away from. I want to thank those who have worked to make this bill a reality. The members of the select committee deserve thanks, as does the chair, Chester Borrows, for his work. I also acknowledge Margaret Wilson, who I understand was the Minister of Justice who sent the reference to the Law Commission that led to its report on which this reform is based. In thanking the Law Commission, I acknowledge law commissioner Dr Warren Young and the researchers at the Law Commission who were either employed or contracted to contribute to the report: Elizabeth McDonald, Claire Browning, Peter Williams, and David Walsh. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ELastly, I remember those for whom this repeal comes too late. May they be the last to have their ordeals impugned in a court of law. Not one of their deaths has been tolerable, and each of the victims whose killer has used the partial defence of provocation, successfully or not, stands as a silent witness to the reform that we are enacting tonight. In closing, I pay tribute to their families and loved ones, who will know that those lives were not lost in vain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u002246218ebd67c54fb18951aa3fc5c75c32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246218ebd67c54fb18951aa3fc5c75c32\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill, but in doing so I register a note of caution in terms of comments that the previous speaker, Charles Chauvel, made about submissions from the Law Society and other law-associated organisations. He cast them off as mere contributions from a trade union, which, in itself, I find ironic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EI note that my two esteemed lawyer colleagues Simon Bridges and Chester Borrows sympathise with those comments, but I, as an ordinary, simple man, think that some caution has to be registered. In my view we cannot lightly dismiss the cautions and expressions of concern that the Law Society and various law-associated groups have expressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EThe commentary on the bill shows that the select committee members agreed that sufficient flexibility is provided by section 9 of the Sentencing Act. In reality that places a very heavy burden on a judge, and our system of justice is actually based on 12 ordinary people. I want those comments to be registered, and on that basis I am very happy, as part of this Government, to support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00224dc21269e8da4b339fe1e81572a390c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dc21269e8da4b339fe1e81572a390c0\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call and follow on from the very useful contributions of my colleagues. I will be taking only a reasonably short call at this stage, and perhaps during the Committee stage I will make more detailed comments on some of the discussions that took place at the Justice and Electoral Committee. As has already been pointed out, Labour is obviously supporting this bill, particularly given that it mirrors the bill that was put forward in the ballot by the Hon Lianne Dalziel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI reiterate and concur with the comments made earlier by the chair of the select committee, Chester Borrows, about the historical justification for the defence of provocation and about that justification being one of the reasons why repeal can, in fact, be justified. But there are a couple of additional reasons, which I want to add into the debate. An additional reason for the removal of the provocation defence, which was discussed at the select committee, is that the evidence as to what allegedly incited a homicidal loss of control, which in effect is what the defence of provocation must demonstrate, is entirely in the hands of the victim, and in almost all the examples in which provocation has been used as a partial defence in past years, that witness\u2014the victim\u2014has, of course, been silenced for ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe second point, which I think is another very valid reason for the removal of the defence of provocation, is that there is already a place for provocation to be taken into consideration in the weighing of aggravating and mitigating factors as part of the sentencing exercise. Having said that, I note that there were suggestions during the select committee process as to whether there needed to be more explicit reference to that in the Sentencing Act 2002. The decision was made by the committee that that was not necessary, and that that discretion already existed in the Sentencing Act, although it was perhaps not set out quite as explicitly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn fact, it was noted by the select committee that that discretion exists under section 102 of the Sentencing Act. It allows a judge to take into account the existence and degree of provocation-related considerations, together with any other relevant aggravating or mitigating factors, to determine whether a sentence of life imprisonment would be manifestly unjust. So we can see that discretion already exists at the point of sentencing, which is the appropriate point for it to be taken into consideration\u2014at the point when it is considered by the judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere is, though, another issue that the committee spent a bit of time on, and that is the term \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D in relation to a term of life imprisonment. The term \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D is a high threshold, and I think in this case it is warranted, particularly given the message that we are sending today in this House about the kinds of defences that can be used when a murder charge is being heard. But \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D is a high threshold, and the select committee considered the way that cases and guidelines would develop around this threshold following the repeal of the defence of provocation. The select committee also reported back that \u201CFollowing the abolition of the partial defence, we would expect the courts, over time, to develop judicial guidance as to how such factors should be taken into account when determining whether a sentence of life imprisonment would be manifestly unjust for an offender convicted of murder.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThat leads me on to the two final points I want to make. The idea of a Sentencing Council was raised many time by Labour members. It was established, and provision was made for it, by the previous Labour Government, but it has since been abolished by the National Government. I think that is a shame, because this debate has again demonstrated the very valid role that a sentencing guidelines council could play in the future. That is something I want to come back to later on in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne final view that I wish to share is a sentiment I share with my colleague Grant Robertson. We are very pleased that we are here today to remove this partial defence, and we all acknowledge that it is not a knee-jerk reaction to the Clayton Weatherston case. I believe that today we have been given plenty of examples with plentiful justifications as to why the House should have reacted in past years to some manifestly unjust cases that have involved members of the gay community. Two cases that have been raised are those of Ronald Brown and David McNee. I am glad that we as a House are making this decision to repeal this defence today. I am disappointed that it has taken us as long as this to get to this point, and I look forward to debating this further throughout the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022924b5f10fffe4d50b4f182674c70f1dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022924b5f10fffe4d50b4f182674c70f1dc\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party opposes this Parliament\u2019s removing the defence of provocation with the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. When Parliament moves after a particular case to remove elements of our jurisprudence in our criminal code that have been there for many, many years and have stood the test of time, we should give it careful thought. Looking at just one or two cases where the provocation defence was attempted, and then from that drawing the general principle, seems to us in the ACT Party to be an unhelpful way of thinking about this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe question Parliament is considering is whether a reasonable person could be provoked sufficiently to commit a murder or to kill someone in a way that we would not normally regard as a murder. I am a simple person, and that seems to me to be entirely reasonable. I can imagine\u2014and I do not think Labour members can appreciate this\u2014being provoked to do some truly terrible things. The case of poor Sophie Elliott has been spoken of. She was killed by Clayton Weatherston in a premeditated way with a knife. She was stabbed 216 times, cut with scissors, and disfigured. It was premeditated and she was brutally murdered. The country was rightfully horrified by this vicious and brutal attack on a young woman. We were mortified that Clayton Weatherston would attempt the defence of provocation. But does it follow that we should get rid of the defence, particularly when that defence was not successful? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI ask members to turn the situation on its head and to think of themselves as, maybe, a brother of Sophie. I ask members to think of themselves going into that room; hearing the murder of their loved sister, her screams, and her cries; getting into the room; and seeing her cut to bits on the floor and Clayton Weatherston standing there with a dripping knife. What would members of this Parliament do? We do not know, actually, what we would do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb809143b638497bbf95a0046b29237f\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Kill the bastard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e030820593da4071b75c884d07e0f571\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Chester Borrows calls out that he would kill the bastard, and I think that I might too. I see Michael Woodhouse nodding his head. We do not know what we would do. I cannot imagine what it would do to someone\u2019s mind to see his or her sister, daughter, or loved one at that moment so brutally and terribly butchered on the floor. It seems to me that a reasonable man might, in a fit of rage, as Chester Borrows of National quite rightly says, \u201Ckill the bastard\u201D. And then that man is on a murder charge. But does he not have the defence that he was provoked to commit the murder by the actions of that terrible man, and that he did as a reasonable man would do? He responded, not necessarily in a wise way, and not necessarily in a sensible way, but in a truly understandable and, perhaps, human way. It seems to us in the ACT Party that in such a circumstance that man can surely say that he was provoked. But this Parliament is saying no. Parliament is saying that if I was in that situation, I murdered the man, I must be charged with murder, and then I must defend the murder charge without the obvious and long-held defence of provocation. That seems to the ACT Party to be wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBy my taking that extreme example, I think we can understand that a reasonable person can be provoked to do some very unreasonable things, and that there may be some wisdom in the law as it stands in the defence of provocation and in a jury considering that defence\u2014and it is only a partial defence. I ask members speaking here tonight to stand up and say what their reaction would be as a mother, a father, a brother, a sister, a friend, or a loved one as they walked in on that room. If they committed the heinous act of killing that butcher, what would they say to the court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e00892d9c9e74d6cbb0ff0cba4b8af34\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019d probably get off completely with self-defence, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b36a16e24a54a6a90127f6e76e0cd6b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Lianne Dalziel says they would get off with self-defence. Actually, they would not. They would get off with self-defence only if that man attacked them. If he is standing there, having butchered the sister, there is no self-defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e1c98b355f49268a86da1adc7500ad\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Protecting the sister is self-defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4fe2a88f7c4d079035c73caf0b5043\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Lianne Dalziel that she is dead already\u2014that is the point. The person does not have the defence of self-defence, because the horrible deed has been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00d5ff92d6e4da4b03de11f2999f8e5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s going to prove that? Good grief, man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289131aaf90004bde871035cf4a451966\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Lianne Dalziel adopts the Labour Party position, which is to ask who will prove it. Because Lianne Dalziel does not like the defence of provocation, the person has to go to the court and lie. He or she has to say: \u201CI thought he was going to attack me.\u201D, rather than say what truly was the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe actual defence that that person needs is simple to the ACT Party\u2014it is a defence of provocation. That is what it is. I say that National, Labour, the Green Party, and the M\u0101ori Party are making a mistake in removing that defence. I think we can quite easily understand, as human beings\u2014maybe Lianne Dalziel has trouble with it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd426566578d406d9f88153693cb74de\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: He would get a light sentence, as well you know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b511650d07e74f86bd8748c27673905b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He would get a light sentence, but he would not have the defence of what genuinely and truly happened\u2014that man was provoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022edd418b48c9c491c9329b13e1acc0457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edd418b48c9c491c9329b13e1acc0457\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address the concerns of the Hon Rodney Hide. Before I do that, I want to talk about the practice of this. I want to make some practical points. I will not take my full time, but I want to make a practical point and then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223323d4ac19cf498da3223df72fcbc8d2\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: We can all say that, Simon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4ad0ca721247feb14023049ab36eef\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will not take a long time until I really get into it. I want to take a practical standpoint and then get on to the principle that Rodney Hide has talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI have prosecuted murder cases, and in 2007, with another prosecutor in the Bay of Plenty, I prosecuted in a murder trial involving a man who, over a period of a week\u2014the Crown case stated\u2014resolved to kill his ex-partner. He was really a man with intense jealousy. She had a new partner. The accused man and his ex-partner had two children. They had moved, and they had separated. He texted her telling her, I think from memory, that he was going to kill her. Indeed, on a Sunday night, I think it was, he came over to her place, a couple of hours away from where he lived. He broke down the door. He knifed her and her partner in bed. They tried to escape out of the window. Their flesh, I remember graphically, was still all over the window, and their blood ran down from the window to the ground, which was two storeys. They crawled away. He followed them and he kept stabbing them, and both bled to death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI can tell members that that was not provocation. It was never going to be provocation. Nevertheless, that was indeed what he pleaded. That is what he argued in court, and we went through the charade of a trial\u2014because there was no other defence for that man. We went through the charade of a trial, and he was found guilty after an hour or two, and he received one of the longest sentences in New Zealand history. The reality is that nearly always\u2014I do not have the figures before me\u2014a defence of provocation fails. We go through the charade sometimes because there really is no other defence. I resolved in my own mind, at that trial, that practically it was a very, very flawed partial defence and it should go. But I did so also for the principled reason that a murderous intent that results in a death is murder. It is nothing else. In our country and in all countries around the world, labelling actually does matter. If, with murderous intent, a person kills someone, then that person is a murderer\u2014not a \u201Cmanslaughterer\u201D. That person is, as I say, a murderer. Labelling does matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe defence of provocation, it seems to me, is entirely unprincipled. It says, effectively, that an accused person has been so offended that it was in some sense OK to do what he or she did. Well, it was not, and it was murder. I can tell members that for no other crime in this country does one today have the defence of provocation\u2014in nothing else. It is very, very common in courts in this county to have the situation where\u2014I can think of two cases like this I have been involved with\u2014a person has stabbed someone or beaten someone up badly, and the reason for doing it was effectively that the person who was beaten up was a paedophile. Maybe he had done something to a cousin or a child. I can tell members something about the practicalities: the accused person nearly always gets off\u2014that is the reality of it. But that person is not, in principle, entitled to the defence of provocation. Nor should someone be who murders someone with murderous intent. That person is a murderer. I think we are doing exactly the right thing today, for practical as well as principled reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275a56cf8e58342b7b4748c9f67fddb49\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002251bead8845ec47fd9f99968e4ef16b9c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002223678c59924943d58bb02114ed429887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223678c59924943d58bb02114ed429887\u0022\u003EHon TIM GROSER (Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee on the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill to take the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224cb3794995e4441bb3b0fb3d5e06900\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022305f45dd240e4288b3914bfb64592f52\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00224b47d132d352485ab1085094347b60f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b47d132d352485ab1085094347b60f9\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E The Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill is a very important measure that the Committee is debating tonight, and I think it is a shame that members do not have a unanimous position on it. I think that that would be respectful to those who suffered throughout the trial of the Sophie Elliott case. I find it incredible that the one example that has been brought to the House as a reason for voting against the passage of this bill is a case that did not occur. It is the \u201Ccase\u201D of a close relative of Sophie Elliott coming into the room as she was being killed and expecting that a particular response\u2014seeking to defend the life of a sister, in that particular case\u2014would not fall within the definition of self-defence. In that entire contribution no mention was made of Ronald Brown. Ronald Brown died at the hands of somebody who said that Ronald Brown had approached him in a manner that was a homosexual advance, and that he was so affected by this approach he felt that it was within his right to claim the defence of provocation against a charge of murder, and he claimed that defence for himself. Mr Ambach was found guilty of manslaughter, not murder. I find it incredible that anyone can stand in this Chamber and put a hypothetical story ahead of the real case we have had played out in our courts. It was not on our television screens in the way that the Clayton Weatherston case was played out, but it was a case that happened pretty much at the same time. We saw the provocation defence being used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think what members\u2014perhaps only a few\u2014have overlooked is that provocation is only a partial defence. The partial defence existed when murder attracted either the death penalty or, subsequently, a life sentence, as the only mechanism for showing society\u2019s abhorrence for the action that had been undertaken. For a person\u2019s intentional taking of someone else\u2019s life, society said that that person\u2019s life would be taken\u2014an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or whatever the expression might be. The death sentence was the original sentence for murder. That was replaced in this country\u2014and I cannot recall the exact date off the top of my head\u2014with a life sentence for murder. [Interruption] I cannot remember when the death penalty was replaced with a life sentence, but I believe it was in the 1960s. In 2002 a further step was taken, and that was to remove the obligation on the court to impose a life sentence if a murder conviction was entered. That was to recognise that there would be circumstances where the intentional taking of life would be proved, but the imposition of a life sentence would not produce a just result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI heard the chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee, Chester Borrows, use the example of the individual who entered into a suicide pact with his wife. That was a tragic, tragic case. The suicide pact was a two-way thing. It was effective for the taking of his wife\u2019s life but was not effective in his own case. He survived his suicide attempt even though he had assisted his wife\u2019s suicide. In that case he pleaded guilty to the charge of murder. He had intentionally taken the life of his wife. There is not a Court in this land that would have felt comfortable with imposing a life sentence on somebody in the tragic circumstances that played out in that particular case. So the court exercised the discretion that it now has under the Sentencing Act and imposed a sentence of 18 months, with leave to apply for home detention. That was an acceptable way of saying that there was a difference in such cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMy deep and abiding concern about leaving this issue to a jury is that we invite jury members to put themselves in the place of the person who has been accused. We invite them to apply every prejudice that they might hold against the person who has provoked the individual. Nothing justifies the acceptance of provocation. I have felt very angry with people on occasions, but not so angry that I would want to take their lives. I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would be so angry. I have noted before that, when a lot of the feminist literature about the subject of the provocation defence was written back in the 1980s as a response to Dr Minnett killing his wife Leigh Minnett, many headlines changed the word manslaughter to \u201Cmans laughter\u201D. The two words of course join to form the word manslaughter. The point was that it seemed that the characteristics of the reasonable expectation around self-control, and what would breach that self-control, applied only to men in those circumstances; they certainly did not apply to women. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn fact, women were far more likely than men to end up in front of the courts accused of the murder of their spouse or partner than men were. They would be far more likely to do so in what the court might consider to be a far more considered and cold, calculating fashion, because obviously the respective strengths of a man and a woman are different. Often, the woman\u2019s response took the circumstances a little more into account. For example, in the case of the woman who took her husband\u2019s life while he lay sleeping, the court accepted fully in that case that she was the victim of domestic violence, that she had been subject to severe threats, and that those threats had been made not only to her but also to her wider family. There are other instances where women have not been able to rely on the defence, because of the method of responding to the fear that they have felt. Nothing excuses the level of provocation that has been claimed in the cases that have been played out in the media over recent times, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHistorically, this defence has had its time. Those who say that we are debating this legislation in Parliament now because of the two cases that we had in front of the courts over recent times actually have not bothered with the history of this defence. The Law Commission came down very, very clearly on two occasions for the repeal of the defence. The issue went back to the Law Commission for the second report because there was a concern about battered women\u2019s syndrome and about people with mental impairment. There was a concern that, in actual fact, in the kind of defence where we would expect provocation to play a role, the defence had not been able to be used by the very people whom the Law Commission was concerned about. The Law Commission took a lot of time to do the research. I know that we have the figures in front of us somewhere that detail the number of successful uses of the provocation defence over the 5-year period that the Law Commission looked at. In 2007 it found that provocation was successfully relied upon by very few defendants. Crown prosecution files showed that during the 5-year period provocation was successfully relied upon in only four out of 81 murder cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo the defence really is an anachronism now, and it is time for it to go. I think it is unfair to use a hypothetical example arising out of a tragedy, when we know that the effect of having that defence there led to that particular family having to listen to things about their daughter that, in fact, nobody could get up and refute, because the only person telling the story was the one who had silenced for ever the other witness to the events in that room that tragic day. So I believe that we owe it to the families\u2014not just of the recent cases, but also of the ones that have gone before\u2014to them to act in unison in this Parliament and remove the defence. The reason for the defence has gone\u2014it went with the death penalty and it went with the automatic life sentence\u2014and it is time that we leave this matter to the judges. We are inviting juries to substitute their prejudices for law. That is what the Law Commission said, and I believe that it is absolutely vital that we take this opportunity to act as one and remove the defence that should no longer be on our law books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002249d1a249d91d46789c21498885d0f37e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249d1a249d91d46789c21498885d0f37e\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to the hypothetical situation that was set out by the Hon Rodney Hide, then followed up by my colleague Lianne Dalziel. I feel that Rodney Hide gave a disingenuous presentation of the way that a situation like that would currently be dealt with in our criminal justice system. I would be loath to leave the public or anyone else believing that when the Justice and Electoral Committee reviewed this repeal we felt that it would in any circumstances give rise to situations such as the scenario painted by Rodney Hide, where a family member who retaliated on seeing a family member murdered would be landed with a 17-year prison sentence. That is not the kind of scenario we would see, given the way that the Sentencing Act 2002 is currently drafted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe reason I find his presentation disingenuous is that l would be very surprised\u2014I do not know for sure; I would like some clarity from Rodney Hide as to the way ACT voted on the Sentencing Act 2002\u2014if, in fact, ACT supported the level of flexibility that was purposely drafted into the law to allow for the very scenarios that he is painting. I would be very pleased to hear Rodney Hide speak again during the Committee stage to clarify his party\u2019s position on the Sentencing Act 2002, which I think deals with the very issue and the very concerns that he has raised as a consequence of the repeal of the partial defence of provocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI will go over the parts of the Sentencing Act that would deal with this situation. Section 102 sits under Subpart 4 of Part 2. I referred to it in my previous speech. It sets out that although there is a presumption in favour of life imprisonment for murder, \u201CAn offender who is convicted of murder must be sentenced to imprisonment for life unless, given the circumstances of the offence and the offender, a sentence of imprisonment for life would be manifestly unjust.\u201D I think the situation and the circumstance that Rodney Hide set out would, by any layperson\u2019s reading, fit the criterion of being \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D. Indeed, further on in the Sentencing Act a number of explicit criteria are set out; when the imposition of a minimum period of imprisonment of 17 years or more would be required, there are a series of mitigating factors that, again, explicitly exclude the kind of scenario that Rodney Hide has set out for the Committee. So I think it is misleading to claim that this repeal could give rise to that kind of scenario. Chester Borrows, the chair of the committee, set out the case of someone involved in a suicide pact. At the time of the Sentencing Act discussion and debate, examples were frequently used of elderly couples and euthanasia. Again, those are situations where that threshold of \u201Cmanifestly unjust\u201D is very likely to be reached. I invite Mr Hide to explain to the Committee whether ACT supported the Sentencing Act 2002, and, if it did not, to explain how he reconciles his two differing positions on those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI will also dwell briefly on another point, which also was touched on by my colleague, and it is around the idea of battered defendants who are mentally ill or impaired. Some submitters presented to the committee in defence of use of the partial defence of provocation by defendants who are considered to be battered. The phrase \u201Cbattered wife syndrome\u201D was raised a lot in the select committee. My colleague has already pointed out that in cases where this partial defence has been used, it has been highly unsuccessful. So the argument could be raised that even if a defence is necessary for those particular circumstances, this defence is not it, because it has not worked for those groups of defendants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe majority of the select committee concluded that it would be more appropriate for most of those defendants to rely on the defence of self-defence. I would add one qualification to that. There was quite considerable discussion in the select committee as to whether self-defence was a useful or successful defence for those particular defendants. A lot of people working in that particular sector\u2014domestic violence, in particular\u2014pointed to a number of scenarios and examples of battered women for whom we might consider it would be appropriate to argue self-defence, but the minds of a jury may perceive self-defence as the kind of defence that would be used if a woman retaliated after an immediate act of violence or felt herself under an immediate threat. They made the point to the committee that that does not fit with the psychology of battered women, and that there perhaps is a disconnect between what we see as the characteristics and behaviour of battered women and a jury\u2019s perception of what constitutes self-defence. We did not reach a conclusion as a committee as to how we would appropriately deal with that particular problem and that disconnect. The only conclusion that we came to\u2014on Labour\u2019s side of the table, in particular\u2014was that it was the exact kind of situation where we would be inclined to ask a Sentencing Council to consider where it would be most appropriate for these kinds of women to look in terms of their defence, given their situation. That is another reason why it is disappointing that the Government has removed the idea of a Sentencing Council, and has used all of the funding for it for the administration of a costly and potentially unsatisfactory offender levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI am pleased, though, that we are finally repealing the defence of provocation. The scenarios that have been painted by other members of the Committee are adequately covered, I think, by existing law. Again I invite Mr Hide to explain to the Committee his position on the Sentencing Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00221aa821eea2d34185945e0d3b52e8e864\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221aa821eea2d34185945e0d3b52e8e864\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very brief call in support of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill because Kevin Hague is not here to do so and I know that he was very, very passionate in support of this bill. Without being a lawyer, I appreciate the comments of the lawyers in the Chamber who have spoken about this bill from the point of view of evolving law. I highly support the comments of Lianne Dalziel about the use of discretion being maybe a heavy burden on judges, but it is preferable to an outdated mechanism such as the provocation defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWhen talking about the evolution of law I am thinking back to my earliest memory of kneeling in front of the radio the night that Parliament voted out capital punishment. My father was standing there virtually crying with joy because he campaigned against hanging in this country. One of my earliest memories of political participation was seeing what he went through and how happy he was that the law had evolved. I am thinking also about when I was travelling through Ireland and it was described to me that a gypsy was found stealing something from a farm in Ireland and was killed by the farmer with a fork. The defence was provocation, not because the gypsy had attacked the farmer but because the Roma\u2014the travellers\u2014are regarded as less than human. Therefore, the Irish judicial system had accepted that provocation was acceptable. The farmer was able to get away with killing somebody, simply because of who that person was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI think about homophobia in this country and how it is still alive and well. I still hear young people, particularly young males, speaking in a homophobic way constantly about the idea that if anyone should approach them, that would easily provoke violence in them. I think we have a long way to go when it comes to addressing these things, which is why this bill is really important. We are removing a risk that that can be used against a person such as the victim of a homophobic murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe have come a long way. We have only to think about the Ku Klux Klan and how they have justified ethnic cleansing, and all the other stereotyping and violence that has been used to justify the murder of innocent people right across the planet. Battered woman\u2019s syndrome is another example of how the law has evolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThat is what we are here to do\u2014to help the law evolve in a way that will be fair and just, and allow the courts to exercise due discretion and wisdom. I am sorry that Kevin Hague is not here to speak more eloquently. I know he did at the first reading. But the Green Party is pleased to support this bill and pleased to see so much unanimity around the House about it. We will be delighted to see this bill progress into law, for the sake of all the people who have been unjustly killed simply because they were different from the violent offenders who took their lives. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u00224188d59dc50844b1b72a0a1a910b979a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224188d59dc50844b1b72a0a1a910b979a\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I start by acknowledging my colleague Catherine Delahunty, and more particularly my colleague Kevin Hague, who spoke to me about the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill some weeks ago. I have thought about it, and our caucus has thought about it. I have just walked into the Chamber, as you know, so I am not entirely aware of what has gone before me; members will forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003ENobody could be comfortable with the success of provocation defences in the case of Mr Ambach and in the case of\u2014to cite the victim\u2019s name\u2014David McNee. I will start with him. That case was an example of a rent boy who was hired by Mr McNee to perform a service. His defence was that the terms of the contract, if you like, went way outside the boundaries, so he panicked and killed Mr McNee. I cannot remember the name of the offender; somebody will remind me, no doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251fe50a14c3a4236bff77b80609e4305\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Edwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7ce0bc29c24f078ea8c78020f98de4\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: Edwards, yes. If I had been on the jury\u2014and I never have been and never will be, because I am a lawyer\u2014I would have found a great deal of difficulty accepting that an experienced rent boy who had agreed to do x could suddenly become beset by panic when he was asked to do y back at the contractee\u2019s flat. However, 12 ordinary people selected at random from the community accepted that defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EBefore I came down to the Chamber, I heard the Hon Lianne Dalziel speaking. She said, and I have the same information, that of 81 murder cases over the last 5-year period, the defence was offered in 15 and was successful only four times. Lianne Dalziel said that that was evidence that the defence had done its dash. I am sorry, but by my logic it is evidence of exactly the opposite. It is evidence of the fact that the defence will be rarely argued and even more rarely successful. I am sure that other speakers\u2014including, probably, my leader\u2014have noted the Weatherston case that everyone is talking about. I am afraid I do not accept that it is merely coincidence that we are debating this bill 6 months after the Weatherston case. Everyone seems to have forgotten that in the Weatherston case the defence was offered and it was unsuccessful. Twelve ordinary people listened to that swine of a man offer as a defence for mutilating and killing that young woman that he had been tormented beyond belief, beyond endurance, and had killed her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa1f984893fb4a2daaba41d459fdd010\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They didn\u2019t believe it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268120b45a32c44bea2c83abfd18ecc64\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. They rejected it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aef8029b60f4cebbfc4cd48fdf2777d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: So what about Ronald Brown? Mention him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e67f055fd8f4871aa709a3913832a31\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: Ronald Brown was the victim of Mr Ambach. Is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049b4e2244ba4c2abcf6d8356c05bcd2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5a819236b54723a0762fa6d17d6098\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Dalziel that if I was on that jury, I would have had a great deal of trouble with that verdict. From what I know, and you were not there either, as you very well know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee38278e51c4b51b56288418d5997be\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edf94437cfd6411886470aa823553f02\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1dd512d20a640b59f4a5f9109d611b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I know what the member is going to say. I ask the member to sit. The Chair cannot be brought into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543ec239ee5d439f91978a13e725791a\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am well aware of what Ms Dalziel is going to say. The only people who heard all the evidence of that case were the 12 people of the jury who sat through the entire trial. We stand to one side, read the newspaper, and listen to the television, and I have the same reaction as Ms Dalziel. I wonder how this could be. This does not read well. This was a younger man with a much older man\u2014stronger, one would think\u2014but those 12 ordinary people sat there and they accepted that defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI understand that my leader has already offered one hypothetical example based on the Weatherston case, so I will offer another one. Late in life, I have become a father. It has been the most wondrous experience of my life. Looking around the Chamber, I do not know on that side or this side who are parents and who are not. But certainly speaking for myself, it has been an incredible change in attitude. It might sound a bit soft, and I do not really care if it does, but I would die for my children. I hesitated whether to even raise this in the Chamber, but every father has the fear of coming upon their child either in the process of being molested or having been killed. Let us hope and pray to God that that never happens to any of us here. I would like every member in the Chamber tonight to think about how they would feel and react if they came upon such a scene. If I came across my little Charlie, aged 4, being interfered with or worse, I do not know how I would react. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI suspect that I share the feeling of most, if not all, parents in this Chamber that we do not know how we would react. We may literally go off our nuts, to use the vernacular. Should it not be the case that the defence of provocation is decided\u2014is adjudicated upon\u2014by 12 ordinary people taken from, let us say, this Committee? We range in age, in sex, in profession, and in education. This Committee is as good as any as a sample. I would rather my fate be decided that way\u2014in fact, at the risk of sounding melodramatic, I probably would not offer the defence. So let us talk about a hypothetical father.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225090bae8efff487ea899bfb9b19241cf\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d happily do the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45cdd5ca23f4ec5abe60a2a6bd0c952\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I would probably happily do the time. But some parents would not. I say to this Committee that I would rather have 12 ordinary people with the attributes of ordinary people judging me, and that is what the defence is about. Would an ordinary person with the normal powers of self-control react in this way? That is the decision in nutshell. I would like to think that that decision is made by 12 jurors and not by a judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c8333a206a414a9d7700492607f019\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Not by Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46feadbe8e445548fcc4c6721ba49d3\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: And not by Parliament. We could talk about the Weatherston case. I will be careful because I have got in trouble before. Weatherston is appealing his verdict so I will need to be very careful. Suffice it to say that senior prosecutors of my acquaintance were astounded that Weatherston received an 18-year non-parole period. If I had been a betting man I would have won because they all said it would be 25 years at least. That decision was made by a judge; we are talking now about verdicts, because that is the province of a jury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI suspect that before I came down to the Chamber there was great quotation about the Law Commission and supposedly learned persons who are in favour of this move. Well, the Law Society, of which I am no champion, is not in favour of the removal of this defence. I took the trouble of ringing two senior prosecutors who made submissions to the Law Commission 2 years ago and asked them what they thought now. Both of them were of the view\u2014I have to be fair and say that one was more strongly of the view than the other\u2014that the defence should remain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EProfessor Bill Hodge, a constitutional law expert at the University of Auckland and not a noted right-wing maniac, has noted that the sentences for manslaughter range from nothing through to life imprisonment. He said that the defence should not be repealed in the absence of alternative defences such as diminished responsibility\u2014what the Americans call temporary insanity, and the French used to call crime passionnel. We do not have any of those alternatives. We are being asked to rely on the wisdom of judges to use section 102 of the Sentencing Act to depart from the presumption of a mandatory life sentence. It is true that that section of the Sentencing Act allows for a less than life sentence to be handed down, but I believe this decision should remain with a jury of the person\u2019s peers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b4bce913fbe4a66be415a67705aafc8\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601620ead6ca4d7b9826dfbf03d6d800\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: For the very reasons I have outlined, I say to Ms Dalziel. I do not know whether she is a parent, but it has certainly changed my attitude to life in many, many ways, and it changes my attitude to this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022829151ab5bf44692b09916ad77f12856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829151ab5bf44692b09916ad77f12856\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. After listening to the previous speaker, David Garrett, I say that I am a parent and I am a gay man, and I could hear the dog whistle in that speech. It was all about molestation; all that emotive stuff that has been used all too often as an excuse for bigotry and prejudice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMr Garrett did not say it, although I did sense that it was there in the background, but all too often people have stood up in the New Zealand courts and said: \u201CI killed that guy because he hit on me.\u201D I would like to ask the women in this Chamber how many times they have been hit on in their lives when they did not want it. It is probably lots of times. It was offensive, degrading, and it made them angry, but it did not give them the excuse to kill someone. They did not have that excuse, but that excuse has been used so often in the defence of people who killed gay men. They said they were so offended that a guy hit on them. I say again that the women in this Chamber know what that means. They know how offensive it is, but it does not give someone an excuse or a reason to kill another person. Saying no is enough, and if that does not work, there are other strategies and mechanisms that can be used, but we do not kill someone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI do not think there is any excuse to give someone a licence to exhibit their prejudice. After all, where would end? It still sits there with gay men. It used to sit there with race. I suspect in some cases it probably still does, and that is totally unacceptable. Once it sat there with religion. My ancestors came from Ireland, which is a nation that was divided on religion. Religion was used as an excuse to kill people. No one would accept that today, and no one should accept sexual orientation as a basis to kill someone or to excuse their actions in murder or violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Garrett and to those who are opposed to this legislation that our law is robust. It is designed to keep people safe, and it has processes that are tried and true. There should be no loophole for a person to use prejudice to excuse actions that are illegal. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022624540af871e42e7a081d362fd2a4948\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5; \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000974\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 117, Noes 5.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00221bf11526fea24c0cb205175140b5572b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bf11526fea24c0cb205175140b5572b\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Did the M\u0101ori Party just cast 5 votes in favour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222655364770284d63acdce62dc943131d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the M\u0101ori Party cast 5 votes in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd3b9658782a4422b7ece2987bf631ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd3b9658782a4422b7ece2987bf631ac\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the Committee to change the vote. I have just checked with our people. I would like to change the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c28d25aefb49f68aff0fa678c27f27\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to change the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s vote to 4 votes in favour. Is there any objection? There is no objection. I will declare the result again. The result now is that the Ayes are 116 and the Noes 5, and the motion is agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c29804ff1740cb99de706da111fdd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c29804ff1740cb99de706da111fdd0\u0022\u003EThe TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1cd0d54bc9f4884bad0081caeee2c1c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbd8f415db094a08b108194f3eaa5590\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16e8dcf12464b6a93d4e79e41aa6c03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16e8dcf12464b6a93d4e79e41aa6c03\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The purpose of this bill is to repeal the partial defence of provocation. Provocation is included in section 169 of the Crimes Act and states that a verdict of murder can be reduced to manslaughter if the offender can show that the crime was committed under provocation. Recent examples have illustrated the significant issues posed by this defence. Extensive consideration by the Law Commission and other bodies has emphasised the need for the defence to be abolished. It is with pride that I stand in support of the bill, on behalf of my party. I will defer to the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, Chester Borrows, who will contribute more fully to this debate on our behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4d49f56d23476885218e670c09123e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4d49f56d23476885218e670c09123e\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is said that hard cases make bad law. Tonight we had a new maxim from the ACT Party\u2014hypothetical stories spun for electoral rhetoric make for rotten politics. Let me recall three of the hard cases that illustrate the bad law that we have now. And unlike what we heard in the second reading from Mr Hide, and in the Committee stage from Mr Garrett, these are facts\u2014not hypotheticals. These are the most recent cases in which the defence of provocation has succeeded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn the case of the Crown and Ambach earlier this year, Ambach beat Mr Brown to death with a banjo and then with the weight from a dumbbell. Ambach ransacked the downstairs of Mr Brown\u2019s home, whether before or after the beating is not clear. The police arrived and found Mr Brown unconscious on the stairs with very serious head injuries, including the bridge of the banjo rammed down his throat. While detained in a police cell, Ambach manipulated a cut to his finger and heavily smeared the walls of the cell and his face with the blood. Police officers in attendance thought his injuries to be serious, owing to the amount of blood, and took him to hospital. There, no injuries other than a cut to his finger were found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn an interview the next day Ambach was calm and through an interpreter gave an account of the previous evening. Ambach said Mr Brown touched him on the thigh after he had been drinking with Mr Brown for a time. Ambach said that he indicated he was not interested in Mr Brown in that way and said he pushed Mr Brown\u2019s hand away. Ambach said he then had another drink and that at some point Mr Brown went upstairs, turning the downstairs lights off. Ambach says that Mr Brown called him to come upstairs. He claimed that he wanted to leave but said he could not find the way out. Ambach claimed not to be able to remember anything after that. But later in his police interview he said he thought he went upstairs. In no clear sequence he remembered flashes, including Mr Brown chasing him round a table and Mr Brown throwing things at him. Ambach claims to have barricaded himself in and claimed to have no memory of how he hurt Mr Brown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAt trial Justice Winkelmann allowed the partial defence of provocation to be put to the jury. The partial defence succeeded. Ambach was convicted not of murder, but of manslaughter, and sentenced to 8 years in prison. The sentence but not the verdict is under appeal, but as with the comments made by Lianne Dalziel and I throughout this debate, nothing I have said bears on the sentencing appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe case of the Crown and Ali was one I mentioned in my first reading speech on this issue, so I will not repeat its revolting facts here. I will record, though, that on the facts that were similar to those I have just recited in respect of Ambach, at that trial Justice Williams allowed the partial defence of provocation to be put to the jury. The partial defence succeeded. Ali was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 3 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn the case of the Crown and Edwards, on the evening of 20 July 2003 Mr McNee was driving his car along Karangahape Road in Auckland. Edwards, in the company of two friends, noticed Mr McNee\u2019s car. Edwards concluded that Mr McNee was looking for somebody to pick up. Having been released from prison 10 days earlier\u2014he had some 50 previous convictions\u2014he had no money so he jumped into the car when it stopped at the nearest traffic lights. Edwards said he concluded a bargain with Mr McNee to perform sexually in his presence for $120. Mr McNee said that his home was nearby and as Edwards needed a shower they went there. Following the shower, Edwards went into the main bedroom. According to him, after some sexual contact he got to his feet and started hitting Mr McNee with his fists. In court he admitted to striking Mr McNee between 30 and 40 times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EEdwards said he felt very angry and that everything afterwards became a blur, after the first few blows. When Edwards stopped beating Mr McNee, Mr McNee was on the floor and there was blood everywhere. Edwards then made off with items of Mr McNee\u2019s property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAt trial Justice Frater allowed the partial defence of provocation to be put to the jury. The partial defence succeeded. Edwards was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 9 years\u2019 imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EEach of the three cases over the past 6 years that I have outlined shares four very disturbing features. First, the account we are left with of the events in question is inevitably that of the killer. The killer goes out of his way to besmirch the character of the victim, portraying him as sexually predatory and therefore somehow deserving of the agonising death meted out to him. Grotesquely, the voice of the victim is silenced, and substituted for by the only surviving witness, the person who stabbed, beat, or otherwise brutalised him to death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESecondly, aspects of the evidence indicate dishonesty on the part of the killer. Ambach\u2019s and Edwards\u2019 alleged blackouts, Ambach\u2019s smearing of blood from a flesh wound to make it look as if he were wounded more severely, Ali and Edwards\u2019 theft of their victims\u2019 property after killing them, and Ali\u2019s wiping of fingerprints from the crime scene and the selling of his victim\u2019s property, are not the actions of people with a propensity to tell the truth. Their claims of blackouts during which they experienced uncontrolled rage, the essence of the provocation defence, just do not ring true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThirdly, horrific violence was inflicted in the killing. In Ambach\u2019s case a banjo bridge was found rammed down the neck of his victim; in Ali\u2019s case there was a stabbing five times; and in Edwards\u2019 case there were 30 or 40 blows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFourthly, a High Court judge in each instance instructed a jury, letting each killer get away with murder by allowing a manslaughter verdict, in each case to a man who claimed to be the unwitting victim of sexual advance from another. Uncontrolled rage led to a reward: a lesser verdict, in circumstances where more controlled anger or violence would have seen the killer penalised with a more severe verdict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe overwhelming majority of submitters to the Justice and Electoral Committee supported the abolition of this outdated and discredited defence. The Law Commission rightfully recommended its repeal. My colleague Lianne Dalziel rightly introduced a member\u2019s bill to effect that repeal. I was glad to draft it for her. She rightly and graciously withdrew that appeal so that Simon Power could advance the Government\u2019s decision to progress repeal, and I commend that decision in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is wrong for the ACT Party, which masquerades as the liberal party and as a champion of victims\u2019 rights, to be the only group in this House to oppose repeal. That is an insult to the victims of violent crime, but it shows that party\u2019s true colours. It votes today to continue to sanction a defence that legitimises violence against gay men and against women. I say shame on it. Having heard David Garrett\u2019s contribution during the Committee stage, I think Chris Carter is right. We understand the coded message being sent about which New Zealanders\u2019 lives and votes are worth more than others in the ACT Party\u2019s estimation. I congratulate the rest of the House on moving to take this Dickensian defence off the statute book by the end of this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022f579c87e7d1047db905e2f64499d4f97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f579c87e7d1047db905e2f64499d4f97\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E The Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill amends the Crimes Act 1961 to abolish the partial defence of provocation. Section 169 of the Crimes Act provides that \u201CCulpable homicide that would otherwise be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who caused the death did so under provocation.\u201D Section 170, an adjunct to section 169, would also be repealed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that society has high expectations of the criminal law. We expect it to be efficient and effective, and, most important, to be fair: not just fair for defendants but fair for all participants, including the victims of crime and their families. There are times when we must look at the system with fresh eyes and ask whether the law is still serving the interests of those it was designed to protect. In this case, I think we all agree that the answer is no. The partial defence is notorious for allowing the defendant to tarnish the character of the victim at trial. In particular, it allows irrelevant factors such as the sexuality of the victim to be raised by defence counsel. This causes unnecessary distress to victims\u2019 families and friends. Limiting any defence argument about provocation to the sentencing stage will greatly reduce the media scrutiny of a victim\u2019s conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ERecently, the Government announced eight new initiatives to support the victims of serious crime. Four of those initiatives will provide further assistance to the families of homicide victims. I am pleased to add the repeal of the partial defence of provocation to the list of steps taken by this Government to improve the responsiveness of the criminal justice system to the needs of victims of crime and their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI am also confident that the repeal of provocation will strengthen, rather than dilute, the protection offered by the law to the victims of domestic violence. The defence is rarely relied upon by battered defendants and is more often used by the perpetrators of domestic violence to excuse their homicidal violence against a partner. In one example that I have been told of, provocation was successfully relied upon by a man who killed his partner after she broke a promise to him to not report a beating he had given her on the previous day. I can think of no clearer evidence that the partial defence of provocation allows the law to be used against those most in need of its protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe labelling of an intentional killing as something other than murder is inconsistent with the State\u2019s obligation to protect the value of all human life. This is where I have a significant problem with the position of the ACT Party, because essentially it wants to have a different class of offender and a different class of victim. This comes from the party that protests that it is the party that argues for victims\u2019 rights most of all. It says in one situation there is an excusable murder, and in another situation there is a murder that is not excusable, depending on the role or the circumstances of the victim. I find that to be completely abhorrent. I also find it to be inconsistent that the earlier speaker on this bill from the ACT Party, David Garrett, said that if provoked, for example, by a situation where he came across someone offending against his own child and he went on to take that person\u2019s life, the member would be prepared to do the time for that. In fact, he said in his opening remarks that he would be prepared to kill for the sake of his child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI say murder is murder. The intentional killing of one human being by another is murder. It is not manslaughter; it is nothing less than murder. We should be honest enough, in this fair and democratic society, to understand that and to expect to stand up and pay an account for doing exactly that. At a time when the Government is working to send the message that people must find ways to manage their anger other than through the use of violence, it is inappropriate that a defence that effectively rewards a homicidal loss of self-control should remain on our statute book. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002241c1ee87b36f461795c76f3afdd4a668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241c1ee87b36f461795c76f3afdd4a668\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin my contribution to this debate by congratulating my colleague Charles Chauvel. He came to this Parliament already an advocate for repeal of the partial defence of provocation, and I know that he has worked tirelessly to see that law removed from our statute book. I pay tribute to him. He drafted the member\u2019s bill that I had the privilege to have in my name for a short period of time, and I thank him and congratulate him on all that he has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the Minister of Justice, the Hon Simon Power. He introduced the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill at the point where we were able to have such a bill introduced. I think it is important to say that, because various members of this House have made the point that we are having this debate now because of the Sophie Elliot case and the Ronald Brown case. That is not the case. In fact, the member\u2019s bill that Charles Chauvel drafted for me was ready for the ballot some weeks before those cases hit the headlines. The reason that we deferred putting it in the ballot was to ensure that our participating in a public debate on the defence of provocation could not potentially give a lawyer grounds for appeal. As soon as we knew that those two cases would be dealt with, we felt that it was important that the bill not be submitted to the ballot until an appropriate time. I felt that the Minister introduced this bill in a very timely fashion as soon as he was in a position to do so. I pay tribute to him as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI also pay tribute to the chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee, Chester Borrows. I think he has presented an extremely compelling argument to this House throughout the whole of the debate on this bill. With his experience in the police force and in the legal profession, I think he has brought a very useful contribution to the debate, but I also think he should be congratulated on his personal knowledge and his understanding of the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not normally do this\u2014this sounds terrible\u2014but I want to thank Simon Bridges as well. I thought he gave an incredibly sensitive and thoughtful speech, and Jacinda Ardern and I gave him big ups before. I want him to know that it was very moving. I thank him on behalf of all of those whose memories of their loved ones have been ruined, in may respects, by the people who murdered them claiming this defence. I thought he added a very, very powerful message tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will follow on from some of my colleagues and say that I regret that we could not speak with one voice in Parliament tonight. I think that would have been the best way that we could have offered something to the families of Sophie Elliot and Ronald Brown. I was asked during the Committee stage of this bill whether I had children. No, I do not have children. The reason I was asked whether I had children was not to question whether I would be prepared to die for my child; it was to question whether I would be prepared to kill for my child. Even though I do not have children, there are people whom I would die for, but, no, there is no one whom I would kill for, because I do not believe that it is my right to kill another, to intentionally take a person\u2019s life from him or her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Chris Carter pointed out, the ACT Party has disgracefully employed a dog whistle technique in this House tonight. Those members use the hypothetical example of a father responding to a direct threat to a child\u2014to a child being abused or attacked. That was the example we had given to us\u2014a hypothetical case. Not one case in the litany of cases presented by two Law Commission reports\u2014not one case\u2014mirrors the hypothetical example. Why? Because not one such case would see a lawyer recommending pleading provocation; he or she would go for complete acquittal. That is the point I am making. The lawyer would argue that the father was incapable of forming intent. I ask members to tell me if they could find a jury that would convict a father in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis defence is not about those cases. This defence is about men who determine that the anger they feel about being approached by somebody of a different sexual orientation is grounds for them to take that person\u2019s life, or that the subsequent behaviour of a former partner, former wife, or former girlfriend, even\u2014their former partners\u2019 choosing to be with somebody else, or not considering that their sexual prowess is up to it, as it were\u2014somehow justifies their taking their former partners\u2019 lives, and, often, the lives of the new men in their lives, as well. That was the example we had from Simon Bridges. That is what this defence has been used for, and no amount of sophistry from the ACT Party will change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe law change is not happening because of the Sophie Elliot case or the Ronald Brown case, but we would pay tribute to their memories by passing it unanimously. I believe that in this House we have a responsibility to keep our statute book up to date. This defence is past its use-by date. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u002206b32fdccdfc4b15b0278fa18388afcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b32fdccdfc4b15b0278fa18388afcb\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I thank all of those who have contributed their k\u014Drero tonight. I find it a bit strange to come back to the House today. I have been away all day at a tangi for a young man, H\u0101wea Vercoe, who was taken just a couple of days ago in Whakat\u0101ne. We are talking about provocation, and I do not know what provocation caused that young man\u2019s death, but he lost his life at a very young age and leaves behind a young family. A couple of hundred people were at his marae today. It is a bit difficult to come back to the House and to think of him, and to also think of the stories that other members have provided as background information this afternoon and this evening. N\u014D reira, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs others have said tonight, the aim of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill is to amend the Crimes Act in order to abolish the partial defence of provocation. I was thinking of how we would describe this concept in te reo rangatira, in te reo M\u0101ori. \u201CWhakak\u0101rangirangi\u201D is to provoke. Or we might refer to \u201Cte mura o te ahi\u201D, the heat of passion. There are concepts that refer to an out-of-control state of being, like wairangi, which is the losing of all self-discipline\u2014a state of mental disorder and chaos that leads to an offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the language of the street, though, provocation is a term that is associated with the myth most commonly associated with the attitude that he or she asked for it. In other words, possibly the way that a woman looks, the clothes that she is wearing, the location that she is visiting, the activity that she is involved with, the time of the day when she is out, and the look in her eye are all, apparently, sometimes valid reasons for taking advantage of her. The M\u0101ori Party states categorically that no one asks to be raped, no one asks to be abused, and no one asks to be killed. Nothing\u2014I repeat, nothing\u2014that a victim does, says, or wears is any justification at all for an offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely appropriate to be debating this bill on the day after White Ribbon Day, an international day of action on which we wear white ribbons to show that we do not condone violence towards women. In celebration of our families and our universal hope for their peace and safekeeping, we will today take out the partial defence that has been used for the ultimate violence, the violence of murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs other speakers have noted, provocation is a partial defence that, when successful, can reduce a charge of murder to manslaughter. In effect, that means in practice that the charge laid against an offender can be reduced from murder to manslaughter if the offender can prove that the circumstances were enough to deprive him or her of self-control, and that this induced the offender to commit murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe were particularly persuaded by the logic of the Human Rights Commission, which acknowledged that at the heart of the defence of provocation is the need to balance conflicting sets of human rights: the rights to life, to justice, and to a fair trial. The Human Rights Commission considers that the interests of victims\u2019 families are of particular relevance, and that this bill protects and respects their dignity. We were also interested in the views of the National Collective of Independent Women\u2019s Refuges. The collective stated unequivocally that it is unacceptable for this defence to be used by people who have struck out in anger. All that it does is to reward a lack of self-control by enabling an intentional killing to be characterised as something other than murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the experience of the victims of family violence, they have not benefited from this defence, at all. Indeed, perversely, the defence has been used more often and more successfully by the perpetrators of family violence against their victims. We all know that reality, having observed the highly televised ordeal of the family, the wh\u0101nau, who had to suffer the indignity of witnessing their loved one being subjected to a horrific trial in which the one who had incurred the greatest injustice was unable to take the stand in defence. Her voice had been silenced and her truth was unheard, while the offender had the luxury of the court of public opinion in which to put forward his version of events. I agree with Lianne Dalziel, who said that the media fascination cum obsession with recent trials was certainly bordering on disrespectfulness towards the families who have suffered the humiliation of hearing their loved ones being insulted and degraded by an offender\u2019s defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn our consultation with M\u0101ori working in the law profession, we found that there was support for repealing the defence of provocation, provided that something is written into the Sentencing Act for judges to take account of provocation in sentencing and, in doing so, to have regard to an offender\u2019s special characteristics when assessing whether that person was likely to have been provoked. We sought advice about the process by which we might make an amendment to the Sentencing Act 2002 to add the statement \u201Cand any special characteristics\u201D when judges are considering circumstances such as provocation for sentencing after a conviction for murder has been given. It appears, however, that such an amendment is outside of the scope of this bill, and is, therefore, out of order and unable to be tabled. In effect, the bill is very narrowly focused; it simply repeals the provocation defence. To amend the Sentencing Act is to extend the scope of the bill, which is not possible under the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding that advice, we suggest that the cultural characteristics of a person should be brought into account when making the assessment for a sentence. We are aware that some things that are not hugely offensive for the average person might be highly offensive for a particular offender because of their particular M\u0101ori, Islamic, or other cultural background. We recall that section 16 of the Criminal Justice Act 1985 allowed an offender\u2019s supporter to present information at sentencing about an offender\u2019s ethnic or cultural background, and about the way that it may have related to the offending and the way that it may help to avoid future offending, as well. It may well be useful to look again at the application of that provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the initiative taken by Lianne Dalziel\u2014t\u0113n\u0101 koe\u2014Charles Chauvel, and Simon Power working together across the House on such an important change to the legislation. We in the M\u0101ori Party are proud to stand with the other parties and say that there is no excuse for violence. Whether it be the questioning of sexual performance, homosexual advances, the lifestyle, the clothes, or the way of being, there is no excuse for violence, and provocation most certainly is no excuse, not even as a partial defence for murder. The M\u0101ori Party is pleased to support this bill. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u00222d131bf0444043bfbe7040ce186e1498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d131bf0444043bfbe7040ce186e1498\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I stand as the representative of the only party opposing this bill, and I am happy to so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aad430ea0ce4e0fa90a8894f20a5966\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4aff2131ad463b939aec40ad126d25\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that party is shameful for attacking me personally and questioning my motives and my commitment to victims. I will leave others to judge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThe irony of today is that I was a great believer in majoritarian democracy, which basically means that the majority, and certainly the vast majority, knows best. In deciding what ACT members were going to do with regard to this bill, I read widely. I looked at a quote from Benjamin Franklin. He said this about democracy: \u201CDemocracy is a vote between a two wolves and a lamb about what to have for dinner.\u201D I am quite happy to be the contrarian here and say that what the majority might think on this occasion, or any other, might not necessarily be correct. We have seen in recent days, amusingly for ACT members, that the contrarian mentality\u2014some would say the denier mentality\u2014about global warming might just be right. So we will see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EAs I said in my first reading speech and in my speech during the Committee stage, it is easy to hold up Clayton Weatherston\u2019s case as an example of all that is bad in the justice system. As I said a few minutes ago, the central point is that the defence failed. The jury saw him for the scumbag that he is. This bill does not entirely remove the power to determine provocation. There have been some disingenuous statements about that. What the bill does is shift the consideration of the argument for provocation from juries, as arbiters of fact, to judges. It makes provocation a potential factor to be considered by a judge under section 102 of the Sentencing Act in deciding whether to depart from the presumption and impose a term less than life imprisonment because to do otherwise would be manifestly unjust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThat Sentencing Act is the same Act that that automatically, in a Kafkaesque or Orwellian way, reduces sentences to just one-third of what is handed down by the judge. The Sentencing Act itself is manifestly unjust. It lets persons who are given 10 years in jail serve 3\u00BD. The bill before us suggests that we do not trust the community to judge its peers, when, on the evidence quoted by Ms Dalziel and confirmed by me, juries have shown themselves on the whole to be more than capable of fulfilling that role and deciding whether the partial defence is justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EMembers on the other side of the House have tried to portray this defence\u2014and I am sad to say that Chester Borrows, whom I respect greatly, has done this also\u2014as synonymous with a gay panic defence. Well, that is simply not true. One successful case involved a female victim of long-term domestic violence. Another involved the son of a terminally ill woman. No one has mentioned tonight\u2014and I am not surprised, sadly\u2014the case of Epifania Suluape, a Samoan woman who killed her husband after years of physical and emotional abuse. She had been cheated on countless times, mocked, and taunted by her former partner, who was a noted artist, while she stayed at home in M\u0101ngere and looked after the kids. She had been cut with a machete, and even infected with a venereal disease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EFinally, the partner said he was going off with his latest floozie, and she asked him whether that was the case. He laughed at her, and she hit him with a hammer and killed him. The jury decided that she was provoked. The judge disagreed and said there were no significant mitigating factors and that the offence bordered on murder. [Interruption] No\u2014no Labour members mentioned Epifania Suluape. Her sentence of 7\u00BD years for manslaughter was reduced to 5 years on appeal. But had the trial judge listened to the jury in the first place, there would have been no need for an appeal. To me and the ACT party, it makes sense to trust a jury of one\u2019s peers rather than a judge in terms of a decision about whether provocation is an acceptable factor or defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EAll of us in the House want to avoid a repeat of the Clayton Weatherston trial. What a terrible spectacle it was! But a law change would not and will not avoid that. All it will do is move provocation from a defence to be put to the jury to a factor to be put before the judge at sentencing. Why would any offender now, even if it is fancifully imaginable, not put the factor of provocation? We will not be sparing the families of this country. We will still be subjecting them to the kind of thing that the Elliott family had to put up with\u2014it will just be in front of a judge rather than a jury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThe Law Society and I\u2014we are somewhat unusual bedfellows\u2014would be more inclined to support a law change if we replaced it something else, such as a diminished responsibility defence. Other common law countries that have abolished this defence have done so only when it has been replaced by an alternate defence like that of diminished responsibility, battered woman\u2019s syndrome, or temporary insanity. The Law Society says\u2014and, as I have said, I have checked with the submitters\u2014that its position remains the same\u2014before we tamper and remove a defence that has been a part of our law for centuries, we must replace it with something else, such as diminished responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e90365635642f083fb3dcccc09b566\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Oh God!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225face55991c5411992a1b6386f17e48e\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am quoting the Law Society, I say to Ms Dalziel, so she should not groan. That member is normally a big fan of the Law Society. Well, I am agreeing with it on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EOne of those submitters said that if the provocation defence was to be abolished \u201Cjuries might convict on the alternative charge of manslaughter based on their sympathy for the defendant rather than on rational grounds.\u201D Another learned prosecutor said that there is a real possibility of the number of hung juries increasing as they become split over whether those who would argue provocation should be found guilty of the offence of murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EFinally, I noted in my first reading speech that this bill needed to be considered by a select committee. That is why ACT members voted for it at first reading. I said in my first reading speech that I hoped it would receive at least as many submissions as the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill, which had more than 1,000. I ask members to guess how many submissions were received on this bill. Mr Chauvel loosely talked about a majority of submissions. Well, there were 14 submissions\u201414 submissions on a defence that has been part of the common law for centuries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI urged the House to calm down, take a breath, and think things through. Well, that will clearly not happen. I believe that if we abolish the defence of provocation as we are about to, we will create a whole host of other problems instead. I am happy to be the representative of the contrarian party in the House and vote against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc71bbdbf084db4989cd9e47fd00a4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc71bbdbf084db4989cd9e47fd00a4f\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the National whip for allowing me to take a short call on the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill, because I want to say a few words. I want to record that at the start of the process, notwithstanding that I was always going to support this bill simply on the basis that it is a Government bill, I had some personal reservations about it. Those reservations were particularly captured in the contribution of the leader of the ACT Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EWhen I entered into the select committee process, I did so with some trepidation about my personal views and the fact that this was a Government bill. I am pleased to be able to stand here tonight and say that through the Justice and Electoral Committee and particularly because of the contribution and guidance of the chairman of that committee, Chester Borrows, and also David Parker, I was able to be persuaded, in a personal sense, to support this bill in its totality. A lot of my change of mind has been captured in this debate, but particularly in the poignant contribution of Chris Carter and also Lianne Dalziel\u2019s final contribution. On that basis, I just wanted to say those few words. It gives me great personal pleasure to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f18a3314f3d947fb80f57df2a9b517b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f18a3314f3d947fb80f57df2a9b517b8\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E One of the vagaries of urgency is that sometimes one is not in precisely the place one would like to be. It is with regret that I missed the second reading and Committee stage of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill. It was a huge privilege and pleasure for me to be able to stand in the first reading debate to make a contribution. I want to thank my colleague Paul Quinn for giving me the opportunity to collect my thoughts before standing here tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell spoke in the third reading debate of the fact that this third reading comes just one day after White Ribbon Day. One of the things we do on White Ribbon Day is comment on, and take a stand against, a culture of violence in our society. Today we have an opportunity to do just that again. A culture of violence is one that we should oppose and we must do just that in this House today. I know also that my colleague Catherine Delahunty has spoken about a culture of homophobia. Members may recall that my first reading speech referred in the strongest possible terms to that culture and the requirement and duty upon all of us to take a stand against homophobia also. It is a great pleasure for me to note that this House chooses to do so on this day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt sounds as if I have missed some great speeches, and to my colleagues who have made those I am sorry about that; I will read the Hansard and watch the tape with the greatest of interest. One of the interesting things for me about this issue is the culture change that has occurred. I spoke about that culture of violence and culture of homophobia, but I well recall that it was not so long ago that raising this issue would have met with the fiercest resistance. In listening to what I have heard of the debate tonight and the discussion around this law change in our wider community over the past few months, I draw a clear conclusion that there has been a sea change in culture on this issue. That is not only a sign of hope on this issue and in our capacity to challenge homophobia and violence, but it is also a wider sign of hope for other changes and for the possibility of holding out for important change even when it appears hopeless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI started my first reading speech with a toll of those gay men who have lost their lives and whose assailants have been found not guilty of murder because of the reprehensible defence of provocation. Tonight I again pay tribute to the memory of those men. I also want to thank some members of the select committee and some other members of this House who have campaigned on this issue. In particular, I think of my colleagues and friends Lianne Dalziel and Charles Chauvel, who have led the way on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI also pay tribute and give thanks to other members of the select committee, in particular Chester Borrows. It was kind of him to allow me to participate in the select committee proceedings, and I found him to be an excellent and fair-minded chair, one who has justice in his heart. I also want to say thanks to the other members of the select committee, from all parties. I note in particular Simon Bridges\u2019 contribution on the select committee, which I found to be really helpful, and I acknowledge Paul Quinn\u2019s comments just now. I think the stories of those of us who have listened to arguments and changed our minds are great stories, and they are stories that should give hope to this House and to our nation. I also make what may seem a surprising acknowledgment of David Garrett. In the first reading debate I particularly appreciated the comments and the spirit that David showed in supporting the move to allow this to go to the select committee. I know that, even though he has spoke passionately in this debate about his opposition to the passage of this bill, he holds that view sincerely. I respect him for that, albeit I profoundly disagree with that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThis bill removes one of the most loathsome provisions that stand in all of New Zealand law. It is a provision that provides for a charade in which the lives of gay men\u2014and I unashamedly speak again about this one particular aspect of the law\u2014are considered second-class and not worthy of the full protection of the law. It is a shameful law, and it is a credit to this House that we stand tonight in its repeal. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f36eb073115b4f42a3b2d0d6460b05d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001045\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 116, Noes 4.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252627a2feb2547648d9c776cbd1ef946\u0022\u003ERemuneration Authority Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022210f8774169e41f1a795ba5fdf1b7cc7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002241b7e9732c2641d2b2af7d391e6e45e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241b7e9732c2641d2b2af7d391e6e45e2\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill will allow the Remuneration Authority to explicitly take account of economic conditions when making determinations. Earlier this month the authority sensibly ruled to hold salaries to current levels for those under its jurisdiction, including members of Parliament. This decision was widely welcomed and came after members of this House and others requested that they not receive any pay increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Remuneration Authority is established under section 4 of the Remuneration Authority Act 1977. It is responsible for considering and determining the salaries and allowances of members of this House and the judiciary, the remuneration of principal allowances for specified statutory officers, and the remuneration allowances and expenses for chairpersons and members of local authorities and community boards. It also determines the annuities for other positions specified in the Civil List Act\u2014for example, the Governor-General, former Governors-General, and former Prime Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is important that the Remuneration Authority is able to maintain its independence when determining salary levels. By enabling the authority to explicitly take account of adverse economic conditions, this bill is intended to ensure that the authority can make appropriate decisions using its own discretion. This ensures the authority can prevent or reduce a salary or remuneration increase that otherwise might have occurred. The authority will be required to refer to evidence from a reliable, authoritative source containing standard economic indicators when taking account of adverse economic conditions. One such document that has been identified is the regular Economic and Fiscal Update provided by Treasury. It is preferred that the authority must take adverse conditions into account rather than that it may take them into account, as this will remove any doubt about whether economic factors were included in the decision-making process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill will also make a number of timely minor and technical amendments. These amendments have been requested by the Remuneration Authority in discussion with my officials as part of the consultation for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Remuneration Authority has asked that the Act be updated to ensure entities and position titles are accurate and up to date. Currently the Act contains a number of references to position titles and entities that no longer exist, including the chairs of the Broadcasting Corporation of New Zealand, the education board of the district of Auckland, the Tourist Hotel Corporation of New Zealand, and Waikato Carbonisation Ltd. Consequently, the bill removes these positions from the Act. Additionally, the bill updates the position of the Chief of Defence Staff to its correct title of Chief of Defence Force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Act currently requires the Remuneration Authority to provide the Minister of Labour with an annual report of its operations as soon as practicable after 31 March each year. The authority requested that the Act be amended to align the timing of its annual reporting requirements with that of the rest of the public and State sectors. Accordingly, the bill amends the Act to allow the authority to provide its annual report in the year ending 30 June. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, this bill not only will allow the Remuneration Authority to explicitly take into account adverse economic conditions but also will make a number of very timely minor and technical amendments to the Remuneration Authority Act itself. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022df0833b285ed46dabec561a302c00cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df0833b285ed46dabec561a302c00cb4\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to follow the Minister of Labour in supporting the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill at its second reading. In a sense, events have overtaken this bill since the time that it was thought of by\u2014[Interruption] If any member deserves no pay rise, I am hearing from one right now: Tau Henare. He does not work hard enough even for the pay we currently get, let alone for any future increase in that particular respect. So, hopefully, we will hear no more from him during the rest of the non-partisan debate we are currently partaking in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703dd753a28c49b09c9a95fe3bdb4544\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s non-partisan, just go for it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2816a5b686498c81a9f45c86a4eb20\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if it was non-partisan, the member should not have interjected, but it takes him a wee while to connect the logic of all his particular arguments in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ESince the time that the need for this bill became clear, the Remuneration Authority has already recommended a zero pay increase for members of Parliament. That discussion began at the start of the year when the leaders of both major parties suggested that restraint be shown during the time of the economic recession, and during a period in which many New Zealanders have been losing their jobs. The suggestion was beefed up when the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Goff, suggested that an amendment to the Remuneration Authority Act might be required to ensure that the authority could recommend a determination that would give effect to what Parliament wanted. The current legislation that the authority has to rule under does not give it that tool to do so. This House passed a motion, but it was more of a signal rather than any decent legislative effect in terms of the authority\u2019s work. However, the nature of this bill is a very simple amendment to encourage the authority to take adverse economic conditions into account. It does not bind the authority in any way at all, but it asks the authority to consider the state of the wider economy. We think that is a very important thing for it to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMembers of Parliament receive salaries, as do the other positions that the Minister of Labour referred to that are under the purview of the authority, are much, much higher than those of many other ordinary New Zealanders. In fact, the average wage in our country is a little over a third of what members of Parliament receive, and it is important for us, during periods such as we are in at the present time, to be able to show some leadership. However, we would hate for it to be taken that absolutely everybody who works for the State sector should have to take that approach, because many people who are employed by the State receive very, very low wages. This bill affects people who are paid much higher than other members of the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThis is a second reading debate; therefore, it is appropriate to reflect on the work of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. That will not take too long because it was a very brief select committee report, in part because of the few number of submissions that were received by the committee. In fact, I believe that it heard from only two submitters who spoke orally to their submissions, both of whom were in favour of the bill. Labour members will have one or two comments to make during the Committee stage, but the bill will proceed through because it enjoys wide support across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022323f25cbbfc64eb28634352e3bc02f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022323f25cbbfc64eb28634352e3bc02f87\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak to the second reading of the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill. This bill has the support of all parties in the House, and that is because it is the right thing to do in the current economic climate. The bill was considered by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and no changes were made. We invited submissions from all those individuals who would be affected; all supported the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to ensure that public salaries reflect the current economic situation. In January, when the depth of the recession was becoming evident, the Prime Minister urged the independent Remuneration Authority not to increase MPs\u2019 salaries in the coming year. The Prime Minister wrote to the authority to express the Government\u2019s view that the authority should exercise restraint when next considering salaries within its jurisdiction. This bill is responding to public concern that salaries have continued to rise, despite the difficult economic circumstances. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4b8440ae0b3425f97a80a1a7f4217d0\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290360677c90548d8b7255a72052f2c4e\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff5a35984b884ae88f0a6a765f510b54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff5a35984b884ae88f0a6a765f510b54\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I regret having to rise to do this, but I seek leave to alter our vote on the third reading of the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296097d5f409e4cf1afbf0b516e6c42db\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will accept the member\u2019s point of order. Can the member tell us what he wants to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343a23ee1e4d49fbaa89ea24b41aae1b\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT\u003C/span\u003E: I was under the impression that we were permitted to cast only four votes, but I have now learnt that we have sufficient number of members within the precincts to cast five votes against the third reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e296edfe01475c9fcffbd284ac2738\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to alter the ACT Party vote against the Crimes (Provocation Repeal) Amendment Bill from four votes to five votes. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is no objection. We will alter the record. The Ayes are 116, the Noes are 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a78e876354eb49b2b67f0f959610d6cf\u0022\u003ERemuneration Authority Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e35c53f074b74f159dbfa2f3d5bcc679\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002243f8828415f84acea65e3cc546045d34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243f8828415f84acea65e3cc546045d34\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee on the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill to take the bill as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a6c796b23814014be0566f92ec2ef74\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be59b746f011428bb0fa2d9a0de42915\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022694c9e333bf0415083e157de6a93c204\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022694c9e333bf0415083e157de6a93c204\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 sets out the countervailing economic conditions that the Remuneration Authority will be asked to take into account while making its determination, as it is required to do on an annual basis. I think it is important for the record of the House to point out that although, in the current economic conditions, this year members of Parliament recommended that there be no salary increase, this bill is written in a way so as to not ensure that that is an annually recurring thing\u2014that the wages of members of Parliament would be frozen. To give that effect would have had unintended consequences right across the public sector and, indeed, into the private sector. Rather, by structuring the bill in this way, the Government has ensured, with the support of the Opposition parties, that the economic conditions of the day are one of the many factors that the authority has to consider. So Part 1 is certainly supported by us, and that provision is the bulk of that part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EPart 2 sets out a number of other amendments to the principal Act, including a change in the date of the annual report of the authority. I am not clear from the bill or the select committee report whether that alters the date that the determination is required to be made, or whether the authority will continue to be required to make a 1 July determination. Often the authority misses the date for its determination, and it reports maybe in October or November but for the period that we are already in. The Minister of Labour is indicating to me that that does not alter the requirement for the determination\u2014simply the annual report. The Minister, of course, in her second reading speech, outlined some of the other positions that are required to be adjudicated on by the authority that it is important are brought up to speed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EIt is a very small bill; there are only three debatable questions here at the Committee stage, with two parts to the bill. I have referred to Part 1, the bulk of the bill, and Part 2 has consequential amendments. So that is the only contribution that the Labour Opposition on behalf of all Opposition parties wishes to make at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2 and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208a99a00b14f480ea634614b7975b7d1\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022721b3fb48c1b4b74a7135d73e2462a2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022721b3fb48c1b4b74a7135d73e2462a2b\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Remuneration Authority Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I conclude very, very quickly by thanking the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014its chair, David Bennett, and its members\u2014for the prompt and efficient passage of this bill through the committee. I also thank the House for unanimously endorsing it, at least to this level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAs we have explained, this bill will enable the Remuneration Authority to take into account adverse economic conditions and will allow it, as a result, to set remuneration at a rate lower than it would have otherwise determined. The bill aligns the Remuneration Authority\u2019s reporting requirements and makes some minor and technical amendments. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00222f61526d534848d7864613e74cf2b474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f61526d534848d7864613e74cf2b474\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I see that the only omission members made tonight in the Committee stage was not inserting a Supplementary Order Paper to ensure that temporary Speakers and temporary Chairs of Committee could be recompensed for the very hard work they have been required to do this evening. I think that is an oversight on behalf of the Government and the Opposition in that particular respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI join with the Minister of Labour, the Hon Kate Wilkinson, in thanking the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for its work. The truth is that these are never easy issues to deal with. Parliament is required to make a decision on these things, and the truth is we are on a hiding to nothing whenever we try to move in this area. But the intention of members in this particular case has been to do the right thing. The motion that the House moved earlier this year was taken up by the Remuneration Authority, and we are now passing a law to ensure that the conditions of the country in terms of the economy will be one of the factors considered by the authority in determining the remuneration of a small group of New Zealanders who are paid a lot more than the ordinary person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI think that the privilege we have in serving in this House and being servants of the public means that we have to be mindful that many of the people who send us here to advance their views and values, regardless of how they may vote, are paid a lot less than we are and work equally as hard. Those values will now be reflected in the Remuneration Authority Act, and that can only be a good thing. The non-partisan nature of the passage of this bill shows how serious parliamentarians are about serving all of the communities that we represent. The Opposition commends the bill for its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fccf1558be14ebfa680aea7ef079d0b\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9b54b04534e4ce995631e36d3ab0416\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001090\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 19 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022b74a06209a4a45569ddd4a23d42efd31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b74a06209a4a45569ddd4a23d42efd31\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. This bill has been discussed in Parliament at length and a number of good points have been raised. My colleague Su\u2019a William Sio, for example, mentioned in his address some weeks ago the importance of making sure that the various ethnic groups coming into our airports are aware of not only the risks and the regime that New Zealand has for biosecurity but also the penalties that will result from bringing in anything illegal. I think that is one area we could further strengthen. Although it is not strictly part of this bill, I believe that it is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe bill itself raises the fine for convictions from $400 to $800. The fine is supposed to be a deterrent. As we have said before, we have to balance the deterrent nature of the fine with the transaction costs when people do not pay the fine and we therefore have to chase them to bring them to court. It would cost the Crown money to do that. I think that the balance that has been struck is a good one. As I say, $800 is an increase on what we have had up until now, but it is not a massive increase, and it is unlikely to create major problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAs we have said before, biosecurity is essential to New Zealand\u2019s economic future. We mentioned, for example, that the cost of a foot-and-mouth disease outbreak is estimated by Treasury as being something in the order of $10 billion. For that reason we have to be extremely cognisant of our borders and of what laxness at our borders might entail in terms of cost to New Zealand. We can be reminded, as well, of those times when we have had invasions of various mites and animals. I mentioned the damage and the cost of trying to bring the painted apple moth in west Auckland into line. We are reminded also of the large number of containers that are brought into our country and are actually not checked. It has been said that about 93 percent of our sea containers are never inspected. That explains in part why we have the number of invasions we do, and it perhaps explains why we ended up with a cane toad coming into New Zealand in the last few days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIt is for that reason that I touch on the fact that, unfortunately, despite all the best efforts and the understanding that we have of the problems, the effects, and the risks in terms of biosecurity breaches, the Government is knocking back and cutting the number of staff at the ports, particularly the ports of Nelson and Timaru. It means that these particular ports will be less protected than they were before, and I believe that is a step backwards rather than a step forward. As the president of Federated Farmers said just the other day, biosecurity is something we should be increasing expenditure on, not trying to cut back on. We do not want to run that risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI touch on the professionalism of our biosecurity staff and also the vigilance of New Zealand as a whole in understanding the risks of allowing pests and diseases into New Zealand. I am humbled, in a way, by the statistics that have been quoted in the latest MAF Biosecurity New Zealand document that documents the number of times that people call to the attention of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry possible risks coming into the country. In the year ended 30 June this year, 13,840 notifications were received via its hotline. That is an extraordinary number of people calling in to report pests. Following some screening of those calls, about 4,000 of these incidents were assessed to determine whether the reported pests posed a threat. So New Zealanders are very aware of, and understand the implications and the risks that may come with, biosecurity breaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI therefore come back to the point that it is a disappointment\u2014and it must be a disappointment for New Zealand as a whole, particularly for those people who have contributed by contacting the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2014that this Government is not, in fact, backing up that awareness with the actions that New Zealanders would expect from the Government. It was helpful that Maurice Williamson, the Minister of Customs, confirmed tonight during the debate on the Border (Customs, Excise, and Tariff) Processing Bill that the Government had cut the biosecurity budget and left New Zealand more open to those sorts of incursions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288246ea3146e4e8b830ff81d0ba2ad7f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That was Maurice being bored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274bd641f061640a49a7d23caee045373\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: That was Maurice Williamson today. It is an extraordinary coincidence that on the same day that we are standing in the House to reclaim the importance of biosecurity to our economic future, a Government Minister is pushing through legislation that will cut the biosecurity budget. It is a testament to what this Government believes in terms of biosecurity. This Government is supposed to be a friend of the farmers, and the Federated Farmers president has come out and said that biosecurity is in fact something we should be increasing expenditure on, not decreasing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis Biosecurity Amendment Bill, as I mentioned before, has wide support from the various parties in the House. It is a reasonably narrow bill that focuses on lifting the fines for people coming into the country, and for that reason Labour supports it. We believe in that particular area of biosecurity; we do not believe, for example, in Timaru and Nelson being left wide open. We do not believe in cutting staff from biosecurity, and we do not believe in cutting the budget of biosecurity. But we support this bill because it improves the biosecurity of New Zealand\u2019s borders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022812810a53ddd48d990123f101f6cd26d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022812810a53ddd48d990123f101f6cd26d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak during the third reading of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. In doing so, it would be appropriate to bring to the House\u2019s attention that the bill was sent to the Primary Production Committee on 8 September, and here we are, it is only 26 November, and the bill is being read a third time. That illustrates the urgency with which the Government is implementing appropriate biosecurity deterrents for people who arrive here by ship or by plane. Essentially, that is what the bill is dealing with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the present Biosecurity Act, and it does so because, as was mentioned in the first reading debate, a tension now exists between the importance of agriculture and the importance of tourism. We have some 3 million - odd visitors a year coming to New Zealand, and we have to have appropriate border controls so that we also protect our agricultural sector. In the first instance, we have raised the instant fine to $400, and, in a case where court action is necessary, we have raised the fine to $1,000. The bill also implements a single infringement regime, and the Act itself then empowers the fines and appropriate infringement regime into regulation. It is also important to realise that MAF Biosecurity is doing a lot to improve the declaration that people will be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is important for New Zealand to maintain its \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D image and its clean, green perception throughout the world, because we have a platinum level of food safety. When we look back over the last 9 years of the previous Labour Government, we see 340 biosecurity incursions. It is very, very important that we do better than that. This Government is determined that its performance around that will be measured in a far brighter light, because we realise that the economy of New Zealand today has two very strong twins. One is tourism and one is agriculture. As long as we have people coming through our ports, we will find that we need to be very vigilant. This is the first time in 10 years that those fines have been raised. Where the level of the fines sits at the moment has got to the stage where people are tempted to not declare or dispose of things that they should not have in their possession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI speak in support of this bill, and it is a pleasure to do so during its third reading. The amendments this bill brings to the Biosecurity Act are very, very appropriate. On that basis, I support this bill and recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9c27311e694028947524298c0b6bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9c27311e694028947524298c0b6bd1\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call on the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. I think we have heard from all members of the House throughout every stage of the bill about our collective commitment to the importance of biosecurity and our collective support for the provisions of the bill, which increases the fines available at the border and also in the courts. These are all sensible measures, and it is a no-brainer that we would support them. But I have been repeatedly raising a number of issues around biosecurity, and although I do not want to go into detail on those issues again tonight, I will flag them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe first of those issues is part of the quid pro quo that the Government was proposing for those measures. The Government said that it would increase the fines, which would provide a greater disincentive for people to bring biosecurity risks into New Zealand, and that it would therefore allow a risk profiling approach to be adopted in respect of people whom we do screen for biosecurity risks at the border. I have spoken on several occasions about the inherent and unavoidable risks that that approach would create. I am heartened by the fact that the Primary Production Committee indicated that it was not convinced by that approach, and I give my commitment to the House that the Green Party will fight that approach at every stage, if it raises its head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe second point I will raise is in relation to what we might call the thin green line, which is the force of dedicated professionals in MAF Biosecurity New Zealand on whom we depend for precisely that reputation and those industries that Colin King just spoke about. A couple of points concern me in relation to that. The first point is the matter that we have heard about tonight\u2014initially from the Hon Maurice Williamson, and David Shearer has just reminded us about it\u2014and that is that the budget for biosecurity has, in fact, been decreased. The second point that I want to make in relation to that thin green line is the response of the Government, in terms of biosecurity, to the recession. The Government said that fewer goods are coming into the country in fewer containers, and therefore it will cut biosecurity staff. The Greens are profoundly disturbed by that approach, because it fails to apprehend that the thin green line is pretty thin and pretty threadbare as it is, and the risks from which it protects us are massive. So if one had the opportunity to extend the work that that workforce carried out, then one would surely take it, because the more protection that New Zealand has, and that our vital industries have, surely the better it would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe third point I will raise is the Government\u2019s further agenda in relation to biosecurity. I note the comments of the Minister for Biosecurity in the House today in question time, and I applaud the Government\u2019s allocating a further $4.7 million to research into, and further control of, kauri dieback disease. It took a while, but I am pleased that it got there, because that is another biosecurity threat we face. It is a threat not only to our industries but also to our natural heritage, a heritage that, if we do not protect it, will not exist anywhere in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EAt several points in the debates on the bill the Government has said that this bill is just the first of its biosecurity measures, that it is starting off with increased fines, and that there will be plenty more where those come from. I indicate to the House that the Greens are waiting and waiting, and we are looking forward to seeing what those additional biosecurity measures are. Every party in the House, as I have said, has expressed support for strengthening our biosecurity response. I guess the Government\u2019s actions to date cause us to question its commitment to that standard, but we offer our support for the stiffening of fines and for some urgency in improving our collective response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022c805638923764064b84c282e570ddaeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c805638923764064b84c282e570ddaeb\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I will add to some of the debate this evening and to some of the comments made already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Biosecurity Amendment Bill makes a number of amendments to the Biosecurity Act 1993, to increase penalties for passengers who fail to comply with biosecurity measures. As we know, biosecurity is an important issue in Aotearoa. The M\u0101ori Party is keen to bring to this debate the recognition that M\u0101ori have a unique and diverse interest in biodiversity in terms of the management of taonga, as both kaitiaki and developer. Taonga such as indigenous flora, fauna, and resources are greatly valued by M\u0101ori. As a Treaty partner, tangata whenua seek to be involved in any decisions that may impact on those taonga. The M\u0101ori Party is committed to keeping our natural resources and environment healthy, safe, and intact for everyone and for future generations. We seek to promote freedom from ecological destruction, and we consider it important to ensure that appropriate investment is made in engaging with M\u0101ori in modern biosecurity management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe bill also enables infringement offences, infringement fees, and infringement notices to be prescribed by regulations rather than by the Act. At a very basic level, the bill increases the fine for passengers arriving in New Zealand who fail to declare that they are in possession of risk goods\u2014goods such as fruit and meat products. The fine increases 100 percent, from $400 to $800. The regulatory impact statement in the explanatory note of the bill as introduced suggests that increasing the fine will further improve compliance. In 2008, 17,000 seizures were made, so we are talking about a considerable level of offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI am really interested that such a big group of offenders is implicated in the bill. I would be fascinated to know, for example, whether it is all about the smuggling of, maybe, mango, frangipani flowers, or some exotic spices or nuts. Or is it failure to declare goods that fall into the category of dangerous or risk goods? Are these people New Zealand citizens? As far as we are aware, there is no register of ethnicity information compiled, so we are at somewhat of a loss to understand particular strategies that might be helpful in addressing the problem. What we know, though, from an analysis of New Zealand biosecurity convictions that occurred in the decade between 1999 and 2009, is that 200 convictions were of New Zealanders, 73 were of Chinese citizens, and the remaining 138 convictions were spread across citizens of 29 countries. So we were wondering, for instance, whether passengers are properly informed and advised of their legal obligations, and sufficiently assisted. It would be useful to know exactly what role language and literacy issues play in the offending, particularly for people who are from non - English-speaking countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to talk further about this aspect of understanding the rights and responsibilities emerging from the Biosecurity Act. This is one of those bills on which the Primary Production Committee, I am told, received no public submissions at all. I have to wonder whether that is because there is absolutely no interest in the passage of risk goods across the border, or is it because there is insufficient attention paid to communications? That aside, I was really pleased that the Biosecurity Science Strategy for New Zealand, which was launched in late 2007, made an explicit commitment to engaging more positively with M\u0101ori on biosecurity issues. The strategy recognises the important of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and its relevance in modern biosecurity management. In keeping with this strategy, MAF Biosecurity New Zealand has given a public acknowledgment to develop strong working relationships and networks with key M\u0101ori groups, and in the planning, the prioritisation, and the delivery of biosecurity science. This, we say, is a very positive initiative, and one that we hope will be able to assist with the delivery and integration of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga into biosecurity science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAn important aspect of this will be the impact of the Wai 262 claim, namely Matauranga Maori and Taonga: The Nature and Extent of Treaty Rights Held by Iwi and Hapu in Indigenous Flora and Fauna, Cultural Heritage Objects, and Valued Traditional Knowledge. This claim was lodged by six iwi in 1991, by the kuia and kaum\u0101tua of Te Rarawa, Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Ng\u0101ti Porou, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, Ng\u0101ti Wai, and by the father of my colleague Rahui Katene, John Hippolite of Ng\u0101ti K\u014Data. The fundamental core of the claim is the view that M\u0101ori knowledge of taonga includes intimate understanding of, and respect for, ng\u0101 mokopuna a Ranginui r\u0101ua ko Papat\u016B\u0101nuku\u2014flora and fauna. It specifies a key principle of the protection of knowledge, and investment in the preservation of these taonga. As of this time, we have no indication as to when the report from the Waitangi Tribunal will be released. Closing submissions were heard from third parties, researchers, Crown research units, bioprospectors, and the Crown in June 2007, so there is an expectation that the claim will be soon reported back\u2014we hope. The significant of this is that the cultural integrity of these knowledge systems and cultural practices as articulated in Wai 262 will be useful in further expansion of biosecurity policies and plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to really place on the record the recognition that M\u0101ori are very well positioned to identify biosecurity issues and research needs. This is an area where tangata whenua have developed key expertise, capacity, and capability in the field. As such, in the implementation of biosecurity procedures and protocols we would expect full engagement from M\u0101ori, who will be aware of the potential impacts from incursions of pests and diseases associated with taonga and resources in their particular rohe. Constant communication with MAF Biosecurity New Zealand will allow M\u0101ori to build confidence that they will be involved in the decisions that may impact on their taonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, I am aware that Landcare Research has reported this year that New Zealand has been described as one of the weediest countries in the world, with all of these plants introduced either deliberately or accidentally over many years. Apparently, there are over 2,000 non-native plants growing in the wild, many of them considered invasive. We need to take every step that we can to value and protect biodiversity in order to uphold our responsibility for kaitiakitanga, or guardianship, of the environment, and to invest in a future when our unique flora and fauna are no longer at threat of extinction. To that extent, we will support this bill in its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009112468636a450ac84ba9a998d8ecf3b5d361001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.41 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"