"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002230e28808f79e43c28b3105184be87bc7\u0022\u003ETuesday, 4 May 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fad88ec7d2db482197e0e280640bf5aa\u0022\u003ETuesday, 4 May 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3cb825102424d95beb58f36760994d3\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f666677ce194901ac06c696a109620d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c444dd834b084547a15f117712f56553\u0022\u003EFinancial Crisis, Greece\u2014Lessons for New Zealand Economy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00228d22108b3a8449c0b32f709f095731d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d22108b3a8449c0b32f709f095731d0\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What lessons can the Government take for New Zealand\u2019s economy from the current Greek financial crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c90b3752251843769b9f239885f8fe88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c90b3752251843769b9f239885f8fe88\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The lesson we can take is that in a world where many Governments are borrowing large amounts of money, it is very important to focus on having sound finances. The adjustments in Greece are going to be harsh. It is looking at large tax increases, 14 percent cuts to State pay followed by a multi-year pay freeze, the closure of many agencies, and reductions in pensions. This is somewhere we do not want to go to, and we can keep away from it if we focus on having sound Government finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4258aaaf6247ecb5d6c2350c3da62e\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What implications does this episode have for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7369d5f535b4ac8b7bf4b9c526ab881\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Greek situation is a more extreme version of the position that New Zealand faced about a year ago, with a deep recession, rising debt, and a credit rating that was perhaps in jeopardy. In such a crisis, prevention is better than cure. Most observers agree that the two best preventive mechanisms are to have a flexible exchange rate and to keep debt at prudent levels. That is what we want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fab41b6002419092fae42e3f545488\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the fact that both Crown debt and unemployment have grown markedly under his administration, does the Minister not think that he is being just a little too hard on himself, comparing his management to that of Greece?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbeb6e8a1ff74ab6bbb0ef8f443646d9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think, unlike that member, that we have to be aware of where things could go wrong, and the fact is that the forecasts we inherited from that member\u2019s Government when we became the Government were sending us in the same direction as Greece.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc201c3fb26840b491566fb139bd3b5b\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What light does the Greek situation cast on alternative proposals for managing the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca4936a901a40e5b0c7e970d1b4d525\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government had continued to manage the economy in the manner that the previous Labour Government was managing it, we would have ended up with ever-increasing public debt and question marks over our credit rating, and we probably would have ended up with some kind of major adjustment programme. Unfortunately Labour has not learnt any lessons from that, and the policies it is advocating now would make things much worse\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221776a90b74b14c0582c8678becf9d35b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your considered ruling on this matter. Standing Order 377(2) requires answers to be \u201Cconcise and confined to the subject-matter of the question asked,\u201D and to avoid \u201Carguments, \u2026 imputations, \u2026 [and] discreditable references\u201D. It is established that Ministers can refer to the historical record, as the Minister of Finance has done, including the record of former Governments. However, you have previously ruled that hypothetical references to another party\u2019s policies are not within the Standing Orders. Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/4 defines tightly the area of a Minister\u2019s responsibility, Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/7 specifically excludes Opposition policy from that, Speaker\u2019s ruling 153/3 underlines the need for content to be factual, Speaker\u2019s /ruling 164/7 rules out hypothetical references to another party\u2019s policies, and so on. Taken together, the intention of the Standing Orders and the Speakers\u2019 rulings is clear on this matter. It is to facilitate the accountability of the Government to the Opposition\u2019s questions, rather than to allow the Government an opportunity to make up Opposition policy. The Opposition has no problem with having a debate about the previous Government\u2019s record, but we would ask you to consider the matter of whether the Minister has on this occasion stepped across the line into hypothetical Opposition policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a151a837bc834e80a47c54afed539502\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Hon Dr Nick Smith that a point of order is being considered, so he must not interject. Had the Hon Bill English gone on at some length about Labour Party policies, I would have agreed with the Hon David Cunliffe\u2019s point of order. But there was only the briefest possible reference at the end of his answer. In relation to this whole issue, I would say that if Opposition members do not want Ministers to comment on Opposition positions, they need to be a little more cautious about their interjections. I heard all sorts of interjections as the Minister started to answer his questions today about his having been lucky to inherit good things from the previous Government, and all that kind of thing. So if Opposition members do not want Ministers to comment on either past policy or current policy of the Opposition, they need to be more careful with regard to their interjections. I believe today that the Minister has not transgressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c64104968a54cfc9d1914e679e5c2a6\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. To clarify that point of order\u2014I am not trying to relitigate your ruling, but for future guidance\u2014can we be clear that historical references to a former Government\u2019s policy or performance are within bounds, but at least extended references to hypothetical positions that an Opposition might take are out of bounds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f6c2e25ac34bc19ffc30c4984a9bed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the general point that the member is making. But on this particular occasion, if I recollect what the Minister said, he said something along the lines of the policies that Labour is continuing to espouse would have a similar effect. I do not think there is enough detail in that to argue that the Minister is ascribing hypothetical policies to the Opposition. But I sympathise with the fundamental issue that the member is making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a2742c068d4e11908c6d10f66268bb\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why, when Greek public debt is around 115 percent of GDP and New Zealand\u2019s net debt is around one-tenth of that amount, he is running down his country and putting New Zealanders\u2019 exports and jobs at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceee1d6ae5e2493182ce9cf1c125807b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am simply drawing attention to the fact that when the Government came into office, it faced forecasts in the December 2008 Economic and Fiscal Update that showed net debt soaring to 50 percent of GDP and permanent deficits\u2014that is, never-ending deficits and ever-rising debt. That certainly would have been a path to the Greek kind of crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e8bc52d30324e788c50883d5c0f54d2\u0022\u003EMining in Conservation Areas\u2014Minister\u2019s Recommendation in Cabinet Paper\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00225d2882b5850a4f70a2a7e6a8053a8e27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d2882b5850a4f70a2a7e6a8053a8e27\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does he stand by his recommendation in his Cabinet paper of 10 February 2010 that 467,517 hectares of national park land and protected conservation land be considered for opening up to exploration and mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224c905ef1037d40479100d1a246ccba24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c905ef1037d40479100d1a246ccba24\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by the subsequent Cabinet decision of 22 March 2010, which proposed a net addition of 5,000 hectares to schedule 4 land. So, quite patently, my answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a56c99298964fdb9aa118a5a434117d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that in the paper he and the Minister of Conservation signed off he proposed removing protection from mining in nearly half of Kahurangi National Park, near Nelson, and that he proposed mining in most of Rakiura National Park, covering almost all of Stewart Island, and also a big part of Mount Aspiring National Park; and why was he advocating in that paper that those areas be opened up for mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3673fc27d14e65bd5ff2f85c9017b0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite sure that if the member read the paper he would see that we were proposing that those areas might be better prospected, which is prevented at the present time. We had previously made it very clear that we were conducting a stocktake of minerals in the conservation estate. Those areas are minerally prospective, and that is why the recommendation was there. But, of course, Cabinet rejected that. Cabinet has said no to mining in those areas, and that is the end of the story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea5579192c8b4a1890d60986c7c03d64\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Did Cabinet reject the recommendations that he and the Minister of Conservation made because they were ill-considered and totally unrealistic, or did Cabinet actually decide that it was better to take the first 7,000 hectares, leading up to the full implementation of what he recommended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ba26bd65f24a33afdf864a44ecada0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The discussion centred on the stocktake of minerals in the Crown conservation estate\u2014in particular, on minerals that were known to be deposited in schedule 4 land. Cabinet made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c985e835b1445b9ad098e2346930ee\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How does that add to an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214335e9f00cd446ebff98bd0dc1e229c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Through historic information that was available. There was not sufficient information to back that, quite frankly, so there was a decision, which stands, that we will not be mining in those national park areas or in the conservation areas. I cannot bind the Labour Party in terms of what it may do in the future. All I can do is look to the past and look at Labour\u2019s record\u2014and Labour was the only Government in history to allow mining on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85b7d08b0eb4c609015350ca3f836c4\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any statements of support for mining in areas of high conservation value by members of this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a5736b09f446f2938e2dded8db13cb\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen some very visual statements of support from members of this House. The picture I am holding shows a number of Labour Party members visiting the Pike River coalmine on the West Coast. I can only assume that they were there to tell the workers that if Labour ever becomes Government again, it will be shutting them down. This mine is underneath schedule 4 land; one accesses conservation land to get there. Does Phil Goff support this or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1b467d74054b0eae3b73d763dacee4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Contrary to what the Minister has just alleged, can he confirm that the Labour Government never mined in protected schedule 4 land, that there was a consensus between National and Labour for more than a decade that these areas were too important to be mined and desecrated in that way, and that it is this Minister and the so-called Minister of Conservation who recommended breaking that consensus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ec75e713704718be5c46fc38a603e1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm that. I refer the member to a parliamentary question I answered, from Mr David Garrett. The question listed two permits on schedule 4 land that were granted by the previous Labour Government in its term of office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c06c77f26442bbb1354a8fdb558b19\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When does the Government intend to bail out from its proposal to mine Great Barrier Island and the Coromandel, or does it intend to ignore public opinion, which is running at three to one against mining those very important areas for Aucklanders and people in the Waikato Bay of Plenty? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baef64cda67843a1998cd7acd4d917f1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I make the simple point that the Labour Party has been ignoring public opinion running three to one against it for a very long time. However, we are engaged in a process of consultation at the moment, and we will see that through to the end. I will not prejudice that result today, much as the Leader of the Opposition may want to. But I do ask this question: why is it that the Labour Party can go to Blackball one year to celebrate May Day with the miners, and can march against them down Queen Street the following year? That is a confused position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b98e79aedf14f62807801091d3577db\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does he intend to ignore the 40,000 people who marched down Queen Street, in the biggest protest in a generation, who tried to tell him that his proposal to mine the most precious areas of New Zealand is wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa94e111aa04b58973fb5dc58dce845\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I would argue that the biggest protest in a generation was the h\u012Bkoi out the front of Parliament over the foreshore and seabed. That did not stop Labour from doing exactly what it wanted and leaving this country with an absolute mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226599a2ae6374bdfafd6fd88bf5da123\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the mining industry was in discussion with the National Party long before National declared that it was intending to mine protected areas; if so, why was that kept a secret rather than trying to seek a mandate from the public before the election, and not imposing National\u2019s views on it after the election, against public opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0265a01a3ec44428a9bde7cfed1d41c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a completely untrue statement, but it is typical of the conspiratorial approach that Labour takes to most things when it does not have any decent facts to mount an argument on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d5144323135471588483bb94cfe4a8f\u0022\u003E\u201CThree Strikes\u201D Legislation\u2014Reasons for Government Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef23ffaab3f4b248f85836dfe444e34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef23ffaab3f4b248f85836dfe444e34\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Why has the Government agreed to support ACT\u2019s \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy passing into law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00221277fd01b3f84acf8003d5fec454b9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221277fd01b3f84acf8003d5fec454b9ce\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill delivers on National\u2019s pre-election promise to deny parole to the worst repeat violent offenders. Parole is not a right for prisoners; it is a privilege. This privilege is earned and it should not be granted to those who demonstrate total disregard for the law by continuing to commit serious violent offences despite warnings. The bill will put the interests of victims and the wider community ahead of the interests of our worst serious violent offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27af1222b1d4e28ab608896dec4d29c\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: What is the level of public support for the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d04ce4fbfb4e0a8651cf7a7d856616\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Of the submissions received, 94 percent supported the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill. They stated concerns about violent crime, public safety, and the need to hold offenders to account. Many supporters wanted to redress what they described as the disparity between the rights of the offenders and those of victims, and to spare victims the stress associated with repeat parole hearings. I am also aware that an independent poll commissioned by that member\u2019s party showed 75 percent public support for this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022514f41a30c774e778dc42014b9000fd8\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Has she read the official advice that National-ACT\u2019s \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy is unlikely to have a deterrent effect and will result in fewer guilty pleas, more appeals against convictions and sentences, and possibly an increased rate of homicide; if so, why is the Government proceeding with a policy that will not prevent crime, may lead to increased violent crime, and clearly will make things worse for victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291f55d4ea9c042b59a9ac409628a9f19\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We have received an awful lot of advice, and some of it the Labour Party would enjoy because of the soft approach it takes to criminals. However, I believe that it is very important to note that we received some very good advice on this issue, particularly from victims and their families. I remind that member that most offenders get a set period of sentence but, unfortunately, all victims get a life sentence every time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3af1f2a07a24b46935d90ab9908c944\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will this bill have on the victims and families of victims of repeat offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a2958ca2ce84a1fba750f6a1a238aed\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: This bill will ensure that the victims and families of repeat offenders will not have to undergo the additional stress of attending regular parole hearings. This regime will also help stop people becoming victims. It is a sad fact that some high-profile murders would not have been committed if the perpetrators had been serving full sentences for their crimes. This Government is serious about better meeting the needs of victims and putting victims at the heart of our justice system, something the previous Labour Government did not care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426ccb417212442b88ad5b3c759f3d69\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned about claims from Peter Williams QC that the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy is \u201Chysterical\u201D legalisation, that taking away parole means that there is no deterrent for crime and there is also no incentive for people to rehabilitate, and is this a direction she thinks the police should be promoting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dbaa69e10374d2a97836613b76a66e0\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. Mr Williams has spent a lifetime defending the worst repeat violent offenders in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f67a0488bda4c8a85e9e6ebfe20e820\u0022\u003EUnemployment\u2014Minister\u2019s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022462f1788e71f40a7b62fac1afd9ce985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462f1788e71f40a7b62fac1afd9ce985\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her statement \u201CWe absolutely believe that work is the best way out of poverty for people and we are going to back them and support them into those jobs every time\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00227aa28a5e37984a27bc9e3078e3eaf141\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aa28a5e37984a27bc9e3078e3eaf141\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and I also stand by the rest of the quote: \u201CIt\u2019s going to be done with fairness, it\u2019s going to be done with a level of support that I think beneficiaries haven\u2019t seen before. But there are going to be mutual obligations and expectations as well.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022243e4abcbb55473aae09695786341437\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What confidence can parents have in her, when she promised before the election that National in Government would retain all existing subsidies and fee controls and would deliver cheaper childcare to parents, but within months of becoming Minister she breaks that promise and is taking away childcare assistance aimed at helping families to get ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a016a603e08746a5bcc09d7ee137056a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite good that, months later, members of the Labour Party have read the papers that identify the changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b350bda62f4c25b844e441d78df5d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an appropriate way to start answering a question. The Minister was asked a question about the Government\u2019s position. She should not start her answer by talking about the Opposition, saying that it is quite good that the Labour Party might have done something. That is not the way to start answering a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d18b39c65e40fc8cfeb42359670074\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Currently, families on incomes of nearly $100,000 can get childcare assistance via Work and Income. We are raising the abatement thresholds, as the member might have known if she had read the papers. The papers say that beneficiaries can have their assistance increased from $80 to $100 a week. Approximately 28,000 parents will be better off. We are taking those abatement thresholds back to the 2008 levels. That is something I support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a50ebc4b4a384e93a531fed1b3c6cd1d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: When she said at the weekend that she makes \u201Cinformed decisions\u201D, who informed her that a family with three children, with both parents working and both parents earning around the average wage of $49,000, are high-income earners and therefore should have their childcare assistance cut? Is that the new definition of a high-income earner under a National Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44d852543e941e381cefd201400d78f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: To deal with actual numbers, I point out that those households were earning $99,320, and could get childcare assistance. We are taking that level down to $93,600. As I said previously, more than 28,000 people will gain from the abatement thresholds this Government is bringing in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd89bc7ada6f4ddfa10d3479c988891b\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister comment on policies that have tried to address long-term dependency? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a44ade059ec4ff5927db2d1ce6aca64\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The last 10 years have been marked by feeble, half-hearted attempts to tackle welfare dependency. In fact, the Auditor-General\u2019s report said that the changes the previous Labour Government made did not go far enough to have a real impact. We certainly saw that in the numbers of both sickness and invalids beneficiaries, which went up by 50 percent in that 9-year period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c387618eeff24b36afe84870ce24e332\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister receive official advice that her proposal to retarget childcare assistance income thresholds would reduce the income of childcare providers and reduce children\u2019s participation in early childhood education? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fd90fbd820e4a1e8f515fe4d0b90e89\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I received a high level of advice on this policy, because we looked at it really closely. To be clear, I point out that it has been grandparented for 3 years. Approximately 2,137 people will not be eligible for the assistance, but others will be, and we believe that that is fair and reasonable. More than 28,000 people will gain from the increased abatement thresholds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b41dacdd662244af9f44fbb5ae2e3ae2\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your assistance. I asked a very specific question of the Minister and she failed to address it at any level. The question was about whether she had received official advice on two issues. One issue was that the income of childcare providers would be reduced, and the second was that children\u2019s participation in early childhood education would be reduced. She failed to address either of those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec12a9024d3541168f438ac5ea9e133a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants me to assist with obtaining an answer, she has to choose which question she is going to ask. I listened to the member\u2019s question and I listened to the Minister\u2019s answer, and it seemed to me that the Minister did try to answer the question. The member has admitted that she asked two questions in a supplementary question. Members are not meant to do that. I can be of more assistance if only one clear question is asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd367c71303041b38a8eb435654467c5\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that her proposal reduces the funding for childcare by $57 million over 4 years and will affect more than 11,000 families, thereby increasing the childcare costs of those families by more than $5,000 on average? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec17edaf2fac4f24a420c39f53a38074\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I take into account that the initiative will save $57 million over 4 years. We have decided that we will put that money into abatement thresholds, so that it goes to those who need it most, those who can get out there and earn a bit of money for their own pockets, gain a work ethic, gain a job, and get further ahead. I will back them every time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce9ce3472d214df89cb70dab7448b69c\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a document. It is a Cabinet social policy committee document on the Future Focus programme, outlining the official advice the Minister received that children\u2019s participation in early childhood education would reduce, and so would the income of childcare providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378043a664574730bf35103fb968324b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205269cafd654403f8134e42b26faa644\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the document that states quite clearly at the top of it that there were changes to childcare assistance\u2014something the Labour Party said was hidden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aedaad0c5b054dc1b73425e2a3f5aa7a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef97277c76c4bbfb2a6be4a02cf64b0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is an official document on Future Focus and benefit changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022950a6fe7d03e46fbad14c787a26d4458\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e726b72e0cab4b10a6a73df92a67c88b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have called Rahui Katene for a supplementary question. I ask members to please show her some courtesy. [Interruption] I apologise to the member; the Hon Annette King and the Hon Paula Bennett will cease their exchange and show some courtesy to Rahui Katene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc588e502ff64fb8b5e2054e4f8d5791\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the recommendation from the Child Poverty Action Group that the Government could use the opportunity of the tax reforms to improve incomes for beneficiaries with children by immediately extending the in-work tax credit to all low-income children, and will she stand up for these children and support them to get out of poverty by advocating with the Minister of Finance for this to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b968a0b83ff43f0af7aa922b4d198a1\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Shivers! I am so sorry, Mr Speaker; I was a little distracted by the front-bench member on the other side. I do apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e591ba1e5b7543a88474a7b29c22fa08\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What has been demonstrated here is what I was concerned about. The exchange across the House between the Hon Annette King and the Hon Paula Bennett was distracting the House, it was unfair to Rahui Katene, who was not being shown courtesy, and the Minister did not listen to her question. I invite Rahui Katene to repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbbb7b1279840b2a0c9c0f6fc1394f4\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the recommendation from the Child Poverty Action Group that the Government could use the opportunity of the tax reforms to improve incomes for beneficiaries with children by immediately extending the in-work tax credit to all low-income children, and will she stand up for these children and support them to get out of poverty by advocating with the Minister of Finance for this to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2358d9a15dd4ba7925356fec65c54a7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies to the member for not listening to her previously. Yes, I have seen the report, and I suppose this is where we stand quite differently. I certainly stand by families that are getting into work and are earning more money, and having children live in those sorts of households. I do not want just to increase those benefits, making people become even more benefit-dependent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cad665db9b954172a6cf48e9bbd4b9b5\u0022\u003EMining in Conservation Areas\u2014March Protesting Mining Proposals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002296764b45a4f24a1b9b269fa995a09091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296764b45a4f24a1b9b269fa995a09091\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Does he agree with Minerals Industry Association chief executive Doug Gordon that the estimated 40,000 New Zealanders who marched against Government mining proposals last weekend were misled by the organisers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022684e551e0c32458b963c506e08a9e2da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022684e551e0c32458b963c506e08a9e2da\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I have no responsibility for statements by Mr Gordon, and I am very conscious of the fact that many of those people who marched last weekend were motivated by their very genuine concerns. However, I think it is worth noting that there were a number of signs present at that rally, ranging from \u201CGE free\u201D right through to \u201CETS\u201D, which makes me think that a number of people may have decided to use May Day just as a general day of protest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf2582ef1cf401ba2bccbf215c5f00e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it misleading to say no one is talking about mining in national parks, then release a proposal to mine in our national parks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220037d6a77ed54cc18c35dca19ee69909\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The proposal that has been released looks at the removal of 3,000 hectares that are discontiguous with Paparoa National Park, but which were made part of it in 2008 by the previous Government, against the advice of the local conservation board and against the advice of the Department of Conservation at the time. All that the removal of schedule 4 protection does is to enable exploration\u2014one step further than what is enabled now. It does not necessarily lead to mining, nor does it change the underlying status of the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0dcef290e6744b29db030b02deaee12\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Was it misleading to tell New Zealanders that schedule 4 \u201Csays to the mining industries of New Zealand: \u2018These are no-go areas\u2019 \u201D, as Nick Smith did when the schedule 4 land was set aside?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d180468b90c74e968c50bbe1b461e2ff\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, because that is exactly what schedule 4 provides at the present time. That is why we are having a discussion with New Zealanders about whether that protection should continue on some very discrete parts of the estate\u2014about 2 percent of all of the schedule 4 land, in fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e80c7ca74f484987c01c813d44d548\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222777125fd22147d2b80bc369c3ac63c3\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. It is possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy. I know that the member who asked the primary question agrees with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e06ba39444704e658ac32a8028c9abda\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it misleading to indicate in one Government document that a national park is a no-go area for mining, and in another Government document, issued on the same day, to state that the same national park is being considered for competitive tender for mineral exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63148f4ac7c4956bc536ccf5434cff2\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: On the face of that I would say no, but without giving the context of what is being proposed to New Zealanders I think it is misleading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cba4bd3cacb406281aef7db96777070\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it misleading to say, on television: \u201CI have a great love for the conservation estate in this country. I don\u2019t want to see it destroyed\u201D, while at the same time investigating the entirety of Rakiura\u2014Stewart Island\u2014all of Paparoa National Park, and all of Mount Aspiring National Park for mineral exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa3ef6b0ffc4cd7a7cfcf502274125d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is abundantly evident, and clearly stated, that the Government has no further interest in any mineral prospectivity in the Mount Aspiring National Park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022159cc1eb37fc43debd372d1ebcac1148\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What about Kahurangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225c1f0be3aff4cfb857a83c71d78eb94\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Nor Kahurangi National Park, nor any number of other national parks. The member is being simply mischievous in making that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a5459895bd4d09bb754808845b7b72\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is it misleading to suggest that coal is sexy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331c904d2d1d43f1aff087ea853bb162\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Not according to two of New Zealand\u2019s leading actresses, who have got themselves extremely lathered up over my simple statement\u2014\u201Csexy coal\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e5fe49c77649daa355fcc91f8c4b33\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Who understands the real story: the National-led Government, which says one thing to the public on one day and something completely different to the mining industry on the same day, or the 40,000 New Zealanders who took to the streets in the weekend to show, very clearly, where they stand on protecting our most treasured places?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a9ed3a06104a3cb278e32d92677f8a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There are three parts to that question, so I will answer them one after the other, in reverse sequence. First, I do not have anything other than respect for those people who marched on the weekend and who have genuine concerns. I make that very, very clear. Second, we have not given one message to one group and another message to another. Third, all of the information relating to these decisions has been released and is in the public arena. We are hiding nothing. We will go through this consultation process, because that is what would be expected of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f37c8ff527f445ab74318bbcf437503\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just to make it clear to the House, the Labour Opposition will have no objection to Nikki Kaye taking a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd4f96c581245ed886a5161fe93d604\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is outside the Standing Orders, but I trust it was done in good humour, so we will choose to ignore it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9a97a00d118412bae7d675323f0dc0e\u0022\u003EBudget 2010\u2014Job Creation and Reduction of Cost of Living\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f8759ced084afdac3f8f11fa90638e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f8759ced084afdac3f8f11fa90638e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How will Budget 2010 create jobs and reduce the cost of living for hard-working New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022769cf2d868dc4d199f191ee410f10ea2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022769cf2d868dc4d199f191ee410f10ea2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In many ways it will support growth by getting the economy back to saving, exporting, and investing rather than relying on borrowing and Government spending. It will provide better front-line public services, particularly in health and education. It will continue the Government\u2019s multibillion-dollar investment in infrastructure, supporting jobs and growth. It will control public debt, and it will deliver a fairer and more incentivised tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d44a251309499f8f2b1e1609f1bb98\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government gut KiwiSaver and defer New Zealand Superannuation Fund savings, when the Australian Government has further increased its rate of compulsory savings; and why does he not follow Australia\u2019s example and increase Government contributions to KiwiSaver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efa27833d8e44f4bb7e7f84e616703d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the Australian decision on its superannuation contributions, it is talking about a 3 percent increase over 10 years. We expect to do much better than that. We expect New Zealand wage earners to have a bigger increment in their hands much sooner than that, and they will have a choice as to whether they save it in KiwiSaver or in some other way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dfc5f84a96d4669936d36122ecb2429\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Budget 2010 outlook compare with that of 18 months earlier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e560e983115f49e78bbbe045845779d8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Fortunately, this Budget will be prepared against a background of 12 months of sound management by this Government, rather than 9 years of mismanagement by the previous Government. In October 2008 the pre-election forecast showed net debt climbing rapidly; by December 2008 the forecast showed net debt soaring past 50 percent of GDP, and permanent deficits. In this Budget we will not have to take action to improve that kind of mismanagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204477aaa35d1448f8a78834d9ce38e18\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when New Zealand\u2019s unemployment is rising and Australia\u2019s is falling, is he still doing the opposite of Australia: raising GST, cutting contributions to the Superannuation Fund, and removing incentives to save?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ed01d4ed424f5a856c5b7344c0ff30\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wrong about some of those things. We are putting together a Budget and a tax package that will be suitable for the needs of the New Zealand economy. Unfortunately, the New Zealand economy was managed badly for 9 years. The previous Government squandered the best opportunity for economic growth in a generation, and we have to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e877c463c9094e079b006c6709759cc2\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb974c6fc98458e982e89c3986a5a10\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb069227401b40fb97adbb97ae244e7e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I am still on my feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f58911972af94444880500cc41c348bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But he has raised a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a4f74faf9d424ebd81ededa26defe5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: He has not, Mr Speaker; he simply stood up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee17d027dc64f83bad887cf09a8e857\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he has called a point of order and I must hear it. The Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217b526d407a484dbae3e8fd979e7205\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288f2cf4b38c748399efa86e647569afd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member had better have a good point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9cf95b0e5c4eac8f7a7617ae1f40b7\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I recall the preceding point of order, with the same Minister, in question No. 1. Mr Speaker, you have ruled that historical references to a former Government are in bounds where they are succinct and related to the question asked. You have further ruled that hypothetical references to another party\u2019s policies are out of bounds. This Minister has in his reply to this question tried to reinterpret the historical record, making up stories about the previous Government\u2019s performance, and that would be out of the bounds of the ruling you made earlier, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f52cc22b234af4b7822d5a6b88a40c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member thinks back to his question, he will see that he asked the Minister for his opinion about something, asking why the Government was doing this or that. The Minister has to have some licence in answering a question asking for his opinion. I cannot rule that the Minister give a particular opinion; he will give his opinion. Sometimes when Ministers are asked for their opinions, members may get answers that are not exactly what they want to hear. I believe the reference he has made so far was not ascribing any particular policies to Labour; he was giving his opinion about previous policies. I think the Minister is entitled to do that when he is asked for his opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b748366ef3fa4bb6bab616938255dc5f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why, unlike in Australia, will this Minister not roll out a real plan for jobs and growth, such as creating more than 1,200 jobs by building train carriages for Auckland\u2019s electrification project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd767fdde194daebdc8a5c95ab6e665\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As has been explained, the business of building those trains is reasonably sophisticated. One would not expect a taxi company to suddenly decide to manufacture its own cars in New Zealand. In the end, the KiwiRail board will make that decision. It is clear that KiwiRail will need to renew its rolling stock. It has the capacity to do that, and perhaps its workshop should focus on something that is within its capacity, where it can be competitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d78f7e2a65443548548ce8ed829ef1c\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: What economic recipe would see hard-working New Zealanders lose their jobs and increase their cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c16139e5ea41c4a6d4379ad56965bd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The kind of recipe that would have that effect for New Zealanders would be promulgated by a Government that set out to borrow a whole lot more money, spend it on low-effectiveness public services, raise taxes, and leave a lot of debt for future workers to pay back. That recipe is the one promulgated by Phil Goff and his finance spokesperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f3afc3debd42568b51dac9af79d995\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think that we could have had a clearer example of a breach of your ruling from earlier in the day than that. Not one part of that reply, as he finished it and made it clear, was within the areas of responsibility of the Minister of Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9fad76ae45c410bbd698358d82ec85e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The great bulk of the Minister\u2019s answer was absolutely within the Standing Orders. It was the last bit that he should not have ascribed. But this is a political Chamber. If he had gone on I would have absolutely cut him off, but, for goodness\u2019 sake, he added only about five words there that were what I would consider to be in breach. But most of his answer was describing policies that he believed would be the wrong recipe. OK; then he did transgress in suggesting that those policies are what Labour is promoting. But we cannot divorce this place from political exchange. I have heard several Ministers and members, particularly Labour\u2019s spokesperson on finance, asking questions where they have inserted their views about things into the question. That is the dilemma, but I do not think I should try to stop that. After all, this Chamber is a political debating chamber, and I try to make sure that transgressions do not go over the top. But if the Minister had continued to ascribe a whole lot of particular policies to Labour I would have stopped him, because the Minister has no right to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f59f04257884044b7a0768205cf6ce7\u0022\u003EWater Management\u2014Water Take Consents and Metering Regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00225b556478a3c24251bddabf7abdc707e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b556478a3c24251bddabf7abdc707e9\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: What proportion of New Zealand water take consents are currently measured and how will the Government\u2019s regulations to require metering improve this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00228b08543662b944c490af5e0ca337da04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b08543662b944c490af5e0ca337da04\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a4a294bf5c4a9299dc862c34d2a251\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Privatisation; privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd01cf8a018465f8d3931e1fd0c64a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! If we meter the water, they cry \u201Cprivatisation\u201D, eh? Only 31 percent of water by volume is currently measured. New regulations announced on Friday will progressively improve that to 92 percent by 2012, and to 98 percent by 2016. The regulations apply to larger takes of over 5 litres per second, which is the equivalent of the use of about 250 homes. Although 39 percent of consents are smaller than that, they take only 2 percent of the water by volume, so the metering costs for those cannot be justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223422d9c621a94de894a4349638f25800\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government proposing to use national regulations to require metering, rather than using the national environmental standard or leaving it to regional councils?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222776be34866247129a909efe4416c0a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: If we left it until water consents come up for renewal under a national environmental standard, it would take more than 20 years before we would get reliable information on water extractions. That is far too slow. The alternative is to leave it to regional councils to review all individual consents, which is estimated to cost many millions of dollars in paperwork. The national regulation approach is the most efficient, and the least costly, way in which we can get reliable information on water takes, and as a consequence deliver a step change in freshwater management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c346984a03e42dd84b7fec3ff91cd7f\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: If consent holders\u2019 water meters show unused allocation, does the Minister believe that they should be able to sell those surpluses at whatever price they can command; and is that not privatising the common right all of us have, as New Zealanders, to our water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256b7cefa5404e1897a3529adc10835d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. I do not agree with that. I say to the member that if we are to improve the management of water\u2014something I think every member of this House would agree we need to do\u2014surely we need to measure it, and that is exactly what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e6b559110c4c8e9312391339205d50\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: What number of water meters will need to be installed to meet the new requirements, and what is the likely cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9215b72d0b74a0399f39398de66a4cd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The regulations will affect 11,000 resource consents that take water. Large consents\u2014over 20 litres per second\u2014will be required to have meters by 2012. Consents for 10 litres per second will require meters by 2014, and the smaller 5-litre consents will require meters by 2016. The initiative is expected to come at an overall cost of about $40 million, but that needs to be considered in the context of water being worth over $5 billion a year to the New Zealand economy. The regulations contain pragmatic exemptions to ensure that metering is required only where it is necessary and where its cost will help us to improve water management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f03f642b3543476299fe054d8011c4fd\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002246495a1b08d74baba50b6a6e96f2e5fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246495a1b08d74baba50b6a6e96f2e5fd\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by all his recent statements on health services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002284c82afb0a72498491825e1c9c3cc7b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c82afb0a72498491825e1c9c3cc7b0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, including the statement that the issues the member raises are clearly not the result of this Government reducing funding in health, because it has provided the district health boards with $536 million extra funding this year. One of the major reasons for individual district health boards looking carefully at their service priorities is that the last Government set them on a track to delivering towards $200 million of unfunded services, and we are endeavouring to fill that gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220efbd61e75439fa8d4952bb59ddac4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should not go on too long in that vein. He was just asked whether he stood by his statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3958e496c5d4434a2bc7d1d973bec7e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Given the $536 million extra in the health budget, what does he say to Age Concern elder abuse coordinator\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3abcd27fcbe492f956b39adcfc1051e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have called the Hon Ruth Dyson, and her question should be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f8fdd8c8ad742f68b3fd6b35c5f85f8\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to Age Concern\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022960f24ce63aa4ff88de2ec35b94ac884\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Hon Ruth Dyson, but there is so much noise I cannot hear her question and that is unreasonable. [Interruption] I say to all members that while I am on my feet they must not interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee0a900388f4666bcaf7f914620fd31\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to Age Concern elder abuse coordinator Jenny Michelle, from Auckland\u2019s North Shore, who says that more elderly people who are trying to live safely in their own homes are now being denied Meals on Wheels help in an effort to save his health budget $5.13 per person, per day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8855c29a2f1439fa427024b6b1de334\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: If those facts are correct and the member wants to make that information available to me, I will look into the case. But I will tell members opposite that we are putting more money into health services, and more and more New Zealanders are receiving better front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e1155ee8f9440f892102b843ae8a8d\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: With 3,000 elderly and frail people in the Southland District Health Board area, 1,500 in Canterbury, and hundreds in Kapiti having their home support cut or reduced, Horowhenua proposing to close its rehabilitation beds for older people, and eye surgery at Nelson Hospital being reduced, how many more cuts in health services for the elderly can be expected over the coming few months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f30ad19b2c1c4986a45fe3b82c387cd0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, those numbers the member quotes are quite incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cf203004a844891b6fb7642539275d0\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is implying that I am misleading the House, and I take exception\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d98a4d70a814213866b298864849d3e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume her seat immediately. The member inserted a string of what she claims are facts into her question. The Minister has disputed those figures, and he is perfectly at liberty to do that. He is not saying that the member is misleading the House; he is just saying that his figures do not agree with the member\u2019s figures, and he is perfectly at liberty to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a49387e30e454e87ba2f29ac4d75efaf\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member made another unparliamentary comment\u2014the same as she made the last time the House sat\u2014and she should apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbac75e58fff488fa1441adc2c88abf1\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229759b0c3dc6e437f9e9737c7c50543d1\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I say to those members to remember the history. That member\u2019s Government stopped home support cleaning for 700 people in Otago-Southland. Ruth Dyson was the Minister for Disability Issues when that Government cut home cleaning for 300 people in Wanganui, and she never said a word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f10e2738dc4a0e8d70e82f61e5c9dc\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on improving front-line services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb491ad85234be592bd1c07f1698ae5\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have received reports indicating improved front-line services at the Counties Manukau District Health Board in South Auckland. Last year it delivered a record 15,200 elective surgeries, an increase of 14 percent. It made almost 30,000 surgical first specialist assessments, an increase of around 10 percent. The emergency department there is seeing more people faster. It is seeing around 90,000 patients a year, and it is meeting the new Government\u2019s 6-hour maximum waiting target. Around 7,000 patients attended a nurse-led clinic, which is a 16 percent increase on the previous year. If members want to know where the additional money in health is going, it is going into improved front-line services in priority areas that the party opposite neglected for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ff1f9201b74665afb13d159b458747\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he allow the 198 Youth Health Centre to close last Friday, after assuring the public of New Zealand that it would give continued services to young people in Canterbury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df9b3ac7ff4476a999f3bf4ed7b6e9a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the Waipuna Trust has been contracted to provide mental health services and alcohol and other drug services for young people for 6 months. It has employed the staff from the 198 Youth Health Centre, and clients have transferred across. An existing local practice has accepted 198 Youth Health Centre patients. Records are transferred, but youth can choose to go elsewhere. Youth sexual health services are available free at all practices across the city. The funding previously used for the 198 Youth Health Centre is supporting these new arrangements of front-line services in Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dcea5c9418f494c879612fc090e39b8\u0022\u003EPrisons\u2014Level of Drug Use\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u002200b2e69292d64e7eb99f084d5939d014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200b2e69292d64e7eb99f084d5939d014\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Has she received any reports that indicate the level of drug use in the country\u2019s prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002227e2008ba06d40af8747229a6038e6d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e2008ba06d40af8747229a6038e6d7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Random drug-testing over the last 9 months indicates that the level of drug use in our jails has dropped to its lowest level since 1998. The figures show that positive results have dropped to 10 percent across all prisoners tested throughout the country. Half of New Zealand\u2019s prisons have rates of 10 percent or less, with two prisons having no positive results so far this year. Those prisons are Auckland Region Women\u2019s Corrections Facility and Christchurch Women\u2019s Prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9b50ba85b0495190a702f272fc2c9e\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain the reason for these good results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a5f3fcc7d94a06aac31fe88d063eaa\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. One of the main reasons is that legislation passed by this Government has allowed for the monitoring of prisoners\u2019 phone calls and mail. This has enabled the Department of Corrections to more effectively target those responsible for smuggling drugs. Twelve drug-dog teams across New Zealand regularly search visitors and their vehicles, prisoners\u2019 cells, and incoming mail. I was very impressed by the skills they demonstrated this morning at the national police dog championships. The results also reflect the Government\u2019s commitment to doubling the number of places available for prisoners to undertake treatment for drug and alcohol addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfe268a637a645ae8259a8396955a8cf\u0022\u003ERail\u2014Business and Economic Research Ltd Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226c59dad3b2e5495581c2d84482a9996e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c59dad3b2e5495581c2d84482a9996e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What strengths does he see in the Berl Economics report Business Case for Building Rolling Stock in New Zealand, and what response, if any, does the Government intend to make to the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00225e33f84663f548fa86e878c6e6d509c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e33f84663f548fa86e878c6e6d509c2\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E It is difficult to see strengths when the report is based on highly debatable assumptions. For example, the cost per electric unit has been compared as if the examples in the report are all the same, when quite obviously they are not. The report suggests that the newer Asian manufacturers are having trouble selling trains overseas, and then suggests that New Zealand, though, could somehow be a successful exporter. The economic benefits are calculated by suggesting that the trains will be built mostly by skilled train manufacturers who are currently unemployed, which is doubtful. It has also made no allowance for any commercial risk for the trains to be built in this country despite the fact that it has never been done before, which, frankly, is inexplicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfc877513f1e408595e8684e38f714ba\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he suggest yesterday that the new electric multiple units are high-tech and much more challenging to manufacture than conventional carriages when the Business and Economic Research Ltd model already has the engines, bogies, and electronics being sourced from overseas, which would leave 70 percent of the work to be done by our skilled Kiwi work force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226807da0e80274bee9614fbca39a8eecb\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Because these are highly specialised pieces of equipment. They are very high-end units, which have never been built in this country before. I note that a previous Government, which the member represented, also took that view, because it bought the trains for Wellington from Korea, rather than having them built\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168e70d935394ff0b2e20001aea75307\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc297abe31da45d9a6c5a86be9a7c7d4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I say specifically to the Government front-benchers that a point of order was clearly called. Members should cease interjecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12770af0cc14c51837811bf5257a367\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: My question was free of any political comment or commentary. I asked the Minister specifically about the difficult or high-tech parts that he referred to. Those parts are being sourced from overseas, leaving the more elementary aspects of the manufacturing to be done here in New Zealand. I am not sure whether he heard the question or did not respond to that part of it. I particularly separated that part of the manufacturing so that I could get an answer on the point of the more basic aspect of the proposal that has been put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64c1623da3c41008d72d15fd48ba693\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: In response I was noting that together these are very high-spec pieces of equipment, and I was noting, by comparison, that it has not been done in this country before. That was the reason for noting another example, which, I think, is an entirely fair answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206092b5dbced4d0f802f7352f02a66e3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion I cannot expect the Minister to give a particular answer. The Minister has basically disputed the member\u2019s assertion when he asked the question\u2014that some of the manufacture is fairly simple. The Minister argued that the manufacture is complex, and in disagreeing with the fundamental aspect of the member\u2019s question, I believe he has answered it. He has not dodged it altogether at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c6e3b640c440d3ad859f822181a5be\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister told Close Up last night that building the new electric trains in New Zealand would be a step too far in terms of capability, was he aware that Hillside railway workshops in Dunedin are already building 17 AK class carriages for the Tranz Scenic service, and that the quality of those carriages is equal to anything from overseas; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277021b20fa904430b1071027a9db5e26\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely am aware of what is being built in the workshops in Dunedin. They are doing a fantastic job of building carriages and refurbishing and rebuilding rolling stock. I point out to the member that it is quite a different exercise to build electric multiple units, which are engines and carriages in the same train, the last time I looked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec8aa26e82c54785afa31e7d55e90018\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has he ever visited either Woburn or Hillside workshops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee1e4f8ca1c49cf86e835f27f7cd85e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560f547565004809a7be00aac433bb74\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the comments of the Prime Minister to the working party on this project that \u201CWe are spending all this money. It would be good if as much of it as possible could come back to New Zealand.\u201D; and if he does agree with the Prime Minister, can he not see that this plan increases the country\u2019s GDP, increases revenue to the Crown through taxation, creates hundreds and hundreds of manufacturing jobs, all within the allocated budget for rail, and is exactly the kind of step change in economic activity that the Government should be supporting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e13667c4f2465dbf2a5e5b6e40978a\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I indicated in my answer to the primary question that I do not agree with the assumptions and, therefore, the result of the report, but I do agree with the Prime Minister that we absolutely should do as much as we possibly can in this country. It is very important to note that the decision is to be made by KiwiRail, which says that it is unlikely to do the work because it does not want to take the commercial risk. I do not think politicians should be placing themselves over the top of KiwiRail. Let us face it: the last time politicians in this country decided that they could make a decision on rail, they spent $1 billion for a $388-million asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5e937fb8a2945f0b92c13d101569520\u0022\u003ECriminal Offending\u2014Cooperation in International Criminal Law Proceedings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e8f7ae6e414b199507ab5360f44bb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e8f7ae6e414b199507ab5360f44bb0\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Attorney-General: What international efforts has the Attorney-General recently participated in to foster increased cooperation in combating transnational criminal offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002286e7ab40c1cc40e3b0adea3514ccb4bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286e7ab40c1cc40e3b0adea3514ccb4bf\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E Last week I attended a meeting in Washington with the Attorneys-General of the United States, England and Wales, Canada, and Australia. This grouping of common law countries seeks to share ideas and deal with issues of mutual concern, including countering violent extremism and organised crime, and encouraging closer legal cooperation. As part of the meeting, I led a discussion on cooperation in international criminal law proceedings. The discussion explored the possibility of improving cooperation in the investigation and prosecution of cases involving genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e02cb4017c46e48d6af1cc2909a38a\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What progress was made during the recent quintet meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228634221422774943b6d34ce6e71e6514\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In November 2009 the Attorneys-General agreed to work together this year on a framework for cooperating in combating organised crime. At last week\u2019s meeting, the Attorneys-General discussed a multilateral declaration of understanding to give effect to this objective. The declaration is intended to facilitate better coordination in shaping organised crime policy at both the domestic and international levels, the sharing of criminal intelligence, and assistance in organising criminal investigations and prosecutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a36dd2e21964427b80f39a2666aa218\u0022\u003EMining in Conservation Areas\u2014Minister\u2019s Recommendation in Cabinet Paper\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002276eb9b0980684336a113da12cce47387\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276eb9b0980684336a113da12cce47387\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does she stand by her recommendation in her Cabinet paper of 10 February 2010 that 467,517 hectares of national park land and protected conservation land be considered for opening up to exploration and mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022652e757f696b4ecc95cbcb456925e4db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022652e757f696b4ecc95cbcb456925e4db\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E No. I stand by the subsequent Cabinet decision of 22 March 2010 that proposes to add 5,000 net hectares of land to schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978b98052f7e4733b1b8e9bf78a5e085\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Conservation accept that it is her role in Cabinet to advocate for the conservation of public conservation lands? Is it not that her failure to properly do her job is the reason why the Government\u2019s handling of this issue has been panned by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d870badef814e0b9571fc2e2b1c4d8d\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely my job to advocate for conservation of behalf of all New Zealanders. I am quite prepared to allow the public to have their say on what activities can take place on that land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223faf088441934f04abe43ac7aa13bf2a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister understand that of the 2 million hectares of land in national parks in the North and South Islands, zero hectares are in Northland, zero hectares are in the Auckland region, and zero hectares are in the Waikato, and that is why it is all the more important to protect the schedule 4 areas in the Coromandel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2aec908bc74ee9a5f6b8651d184145\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the Broken Hills mine, which actually was approved under a Labour Government, is on schedule 4 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f74e8bc92a4bfa886b46b83e617c1c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225757e26552604bef8cec69011d523f48\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is. The Pike River coalfield, which was approved by Labour, is on schedule 4 land\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d847f48170fe44ae950f6f3efb53042e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I listened to the Hon David Parker\u2019s question, and he asked whether the Minister understood that there were zero\u2014I recollect\u2014hectares of conservation land in Northland, zero hectares in the Auckland region, and zero hectares in the Waikato region, from memory. In answer to that, the Minister is going on to talk about decisions of the previous Government to approve mining on schedule 4 land, which is not what the member asked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e24d3d21f648528189d6a0531dfc66\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbffcb6d1d6a416db13207964b0d9463\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I see some members are disputing what I heard. To clarify the matter, I invite the Hon David Parker to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d429bf5dffe049e3a73d95ed5baca6c9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise, but the point I would like to make to you\u2014and I think you acknowledged it in your ruling; your ruling might have even changed part-way through, as a result\u2014is about an interjection from the Leader of the House while you were making your ruling. I reflect on what happened to one or two members on this side of the House when they did a similar thing; you treated them a bit more roughly than you treated Mr Brownlee then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf5b949a08f40f58cd0c3f68c8ce5ae\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I note the member\u2019s point. I certainly have not ruled in any way against the Opposition. I have invited the Hon David Parker to repeat his question, without penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a29feb11be43cc8efc7ba9a68c8f04\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The other point to be made is, of course, it would have been illegal for any Government to authorise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d81c29d53eb41f18b55035c1f0f9e4b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the member is litigating issues by way of point of order. That is not acceptable. I have allowed him to repeat his question; he should not abuse that privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f043214e8a404a29b8a06bbd11ef1ea7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister understand that of the 2 million hectares of land in national parks in the North and South Islands, there are zero hectares in the Northland region, zero hectares in the Auckland region, and zero hectares in the Waikato region, making the protection of the Coromandel schedule 4 lands all the more important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126659ec78634aebb25760c3948bd0e2\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am very aware of the importance of protecting our conservation land, whether it is in the North Island, in the South Island, or on Stewart Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b54752ab4a1b42eabcf08e47b4ca6937\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister accept the advice of the 40,000 protesters in Auckland, the thousands of submitters, and the tourism industry and head off her Government\u2019s ridiculous plans to mine in national parks and other schedule 4 areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea62be85e1e4e0e8d897d6cb487af58\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I say to that member, and I thought he was an intelligent member, that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9cfce03bbd4e0486a61cb9d95aa02c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819f0ee1e97b4085bfbaaaaf99b853ed\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014this is a discussion document, not a decision document. The land is public land, and the public have a right to say what activities can take place on it, which is the whole point of having a discussion document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f3392583b0d450487f3af914f702231\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002253334889062845f084b16cf60039dae1\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs (Classification of Ketamine) Order 2009 and the Misuse of Drugs (Presumption of Supply\u2014Ketamine) Order 2009\u2014Approval\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022196248c72b324e0cae716e27363b1b3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196248c72b324e0cae716e27363b1b3f\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That, pursuant to section 4A of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, this House approve the Misuse of Drugs (Classification of Ketamine) Order 2009, and the Misuse of Drugs (Presumption of Supply\u2014Ketamine) Order 2009, made under section 4 of that Act. These orders demonstrate the Government\u2019s commitment to prevent and reduce the harm associated with drug use in New Zealand. I am pleased that after considering these orders, the Health Committee has recommended that they should be approved. The Health Committee has worked hard in its consideration of these orders, in a short time frame. I thank all members of the committee for their valuable work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EKetamine is a short-acting, dissociative anaesthetic, currently listed as a prescription medicine in schedule 1 of the Medicines Regulations 1984. It is commonly and legitimately used by veterinarians, primarily as an anaesthetic agent, and is becoming increasingly used in human surgery and palliative care. However, ketamine is also gaining popularity as a drug used illegally, for non-legitimate purposes. When used in this manner, ketamine can induce potent hallucinogenic effects, including out-of-body - type experiences, whereby the user feels numbness and detachment from themselves and others around them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs has assessed this substance and noted that its recreational use can induce schizophrenia-like symptoms in healthy adults, and that there is growing anecdotal evidence of physical and psychological symptoms of ketamine dependence amongst recreational users. Taking this into account, the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs provided advice that ketamine poses a moderate risk of harm and should be appropriately classified as a class C4 drug in schedule 3, Part 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. The Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs further recommended that the presumption for the supply of ketamine be set at 10 grams whether or not it was contained in a substance, preparation, or mixture. This means that anyone found in possession of 10 grams or more of ketamine will be presumed to be in possession of the substance for the purposes of supply, unless it is proven otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs the Minister in charge of the National Drug Policy, I believe that the classification of drugs should be based on expert medical and scientific advice. To this end, I accept completely and commend to the House the recommendations of the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs that ketamine be scheduled as a class C4 controlled drug and that the presumption of supply for this substance be set at 10 grams whether or not it is contained in a substance, a preparation, or a mixture. The classification of ketamine as a class C4 controlled drug will not remove the availability of ketamine for legitimate use by health professionals, by veterinarians, and by researchers who hold a controlled drug licence. But the classification will increase regulatory controls, and increase police and customs enforcement powers to control the importation and diversion of ketamine for illegal purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs the synthesis of ketamine is complex, this is not a drug that criminals can manufacture in New Zealand. Rather, those who use ketamine for non-legitimate purposes are generally able to obtain the substance only from the theft of legitimate medical and veterinary stocks. Therefore, real gains to control the harmful, non-legitimate use of ketamine can be made by mandating for the safer storage of the substance, in the same manner as other controlled drugs that are also medicines are stored, such as morphine. That is what this classification will achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn regard to the proposed presumption of supply of ketamine, I acknowledge that concerns have been raised in the past that presuming any quantity of a substance to be available for supply may be in breach of one\u2019s right to the presumption of innocence. For this reason, I support the Law Commission\u2019s review of this matter within the wider review that is under way into the Misuse of Drugs Act, and I will take very seriously the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations in regard to the presumption of supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EHowever, we also have responsibilities under the current legislation, and that legislation mandates that should a specific presumption of supply, such as 10 grams in the case of ketamine, not be set, then a default quantity of 56 grams will take effect. Members will surely agree that for a substance deemed by the experts to pose a moderate risk of harm, possession of that particular quantity of ketamine would be excessive. Should the House agree to this motion, I will direct the Ministry of Health to consult further with affected parties before setting an enactment date for the classification, which will be brought into force with separate commencement orders. This consultation is necessary to ensure that hospitals, veterinarians, and other legitimate users of ketamine, such as researchers, are given enough time to prepare for the changing requirements in relation to the storage of the substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese orders are necessary to limit the dangerous non-medical use of ketamine without compromising legitimate access to the substance by medical and veterinary professionals. They will send a message throughout the country that the harmful use of drugs is not acceptable and will not be condoned by this Government. I therefore commend these orders to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00229da3c5f4807f42a7b7dae7401088f127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229da3c5f4807f42a7b7dae7401088f127\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I start by acknowledging the Associate Minister of Health Peter Dunne and thanking him for his comments in praise of the Health Committee and its consideration of this issue. The only puzzle I have is what triggered the referral of such items to a select committee, rather than the Associate Minister being able to sign them off directly. That is an issue that the select committee is yet to receive advice on. It is not a criticism; it is just an interesting difference in process. I also acknowledge the Associate Minister and congratulate him, because I understand that earlier this week he was a recipient of a very distinguished award, which acknowledged his support of philanthropy in New Zealand. I think that that is a matter of pride. We will all share in his glow from that award. I think it was well deserved. The other recipients are very highly regarded people. Peter Dunne now joins that list, and I congratulate him on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EAs the Associate Minister said in his introductory comments, the reclassification of ketamine is not directly comparable to the way that other drugs have been considered by this House. Ketamine is a drug that is legally used, but not for recreational purposes. It is a drug that is used by vets, but over recent times it has become more prevalent as a recreational drug in New Zealand. The habit has been imported, in particular from Asia. It is very commonly used as a recreational drug in Asia, particularly in Hong Kong. This drug has some serious consequences. Its use does not cause serious health effects, but it can do enough to have a person admitted to hospital and treated. Although those health impacts are not permanent, long-lasting, or significant, the Health Committee nevertheless looked at these orders, the Misuse of Drugs (Classification of Ketamine) Order 2009 and the Misuse of Drugs (Presumption of Supply\u2014Ketamine) Order 2009, and decided that approving them was an appropriate step to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOne of the more concerning aspects that we were made aware of was that people who use this drug recreationally have a feeling of disassociation with the objects, people, and activities around them, which can be quite dangerous. They literally are not aware of their connection to activities that are going on around them. Obviously, that can put them in very vulnerable or dangerous situations, rather than it being a case of the drug itself causing some physical effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EAnother consideration that the Health Committee examined in its process of looking at these recommendations was on the advice it received from the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs, particularly in terms of understanding how the process the advisory committee had followed led it to the conclusion that ketamine needed to be reclassified. The proposed classification of ketamine as a class C4 controlled drug would allow the police and other enforcement agencies greater powers and it would increase deterrent penalties. Obviously, one would be able to be convicted for importing ketamine, unless it was for the purpose for which it is originally intended\u2014that is, as I mentioned earlier, for use by a vet. The classification also considers manufacturing ketamine, supplying it to a person up to the age of 18, and selling or offering to supply it to a person 18 years or over, which would incur a maximum penalty of up to 8 years\u2019 imprisonment. So this is not being considered as a light measure. Further penalties would include up to 7 years\u2019 imprisonment for conspiracy to commit such an offence, and up to 3 months\u2019 imprisonment or a fine of $500, or both, for possession in breach of section 7 of the Misuse of Drugs Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think it is a rare moment in this Parliament\u2014which perhaps has not been seen before in the life of this term\u2014when the Associate Minister, who is from United Future, moves a resolution that Labour supports, and I am sure that will be followed by National supporting it. I think that both the Green Party and the ACT Party will support it. If the member representing the M\u0101ori Party takes a call in this debate and supports it, there would be a break-out of agreement, and perhaps we might consider having the House rise early at that point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e145ce845f60446181325556b86229f9\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear! I\u2019ll second that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b5c1312f9f4e8688285e790eb04ede\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because it happens so rarely. That has been moved by Peter Dunne and seconded by Hone Harawira!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ETo go back to the more serious issue, we know that a lot of people put pressure on members of Parliament to have drugs classified in different ways. Certainly, it was the view of the select committee that this should not be a response that happened as just a knee-jerk reaction after a single event. This matter has been well considered by people who have expertise in this area, and the Health Committee took very serious note of the considerations that those people had taken into account when proposing this recommendation. On that basis, Labour is pleased to support this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00225a8a88d134a94887a1964bcaaad9b207\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a8a88d134a94887a1964bcaaad9b207\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this motion on the Misuse of Drugs (Classification of Ketamine) Order 2009 and the Misuse of Drugs (Presumption of Supply\u2014Ketamine) Order 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Health Committee considered this matter and, as other members of this House do, its members feel strongly that it is appropriate to classify the drug accordingly. I note that there are currently no requirements for ketamine to be held securely, and that quantities of the drug have recently been stolen from hospital trolleys. Ketamine has potentially harmful effects. It can induce symptoms similar to schizophrenia in healthy adults. There is growing anecdotal evidence of physical and psychological symptoms of ketamine dependence amongst recreational users. Therefore it is highly appropriate that ketamine is scheduled accordingly as a class C4 controlled drug. I, too, commend this motion to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00220b66367ab61848f8adc934bd13f94237\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b66367ab61848f8adc934bd13f94237\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. When this notice motion came up for classification of ketamine under the Misuse of Drugs Act, I was hoping that maybe ketamine was a chemical agent used in cigarettes, effectively making tobacco an illegal drug. That would have been a great idea, supported by the M\u0101ori Party and all other parties in the House, as well as overseas, where, a couple of years ago, the Commons Science and Technology Committee of the UK Parliament called for a major rethink on the classification of alcohol and tobacco, based on the fact that together they account for 90 percent of all drug-related deaths in the UK, and are among the top ten most dangerous substances in society. Its report was backed up by research in The Lancet and the British Medical Journal in 2007 that said that, based on physical harm, dependence, and social harm, alcohol and tobacco were ranked among the top 10 most dangerous substances\u2014higher, indeed, than both cannabis and Ecstasy. But when I read the motion, I see that ketamine is something different from tobacco\u2014something altogether milder and way less dangerous\u2014but reclassification of ketamine as a controlled drug will now mean that general practitioners, district health boards, and vets, etc., will have to put it under lock and key, and track and record its use, which is what the sector has been after for some time, so we will support the motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EApparently this ketamine\u2014also known as \u201Cspecial K\u201D and \u201Cvitamin K\u201D\u2014is not widely used, but the experts tell us that there may be a rise in recreational use, with some speculation that its use is growing amongst young people. But in truth, the evidence is fairly limited, and it makes us wonder what all the fuss is about\u2014only two customs seizures at the border, two or three cases of low-level harm each year, and no deaths at all. It reminds me of the debate about party pills a couple of years ago. That was the same thing\u2014a big hullabaloo about nothing. There were no deaths, no crime, no nothing, yet we banned that, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKetamine is hardly worth a mention in comparison to tobacco, which kills more than 5,000 New Zealanders every year\u2014more, in fact, than any other single product or disease in Aotearoa. Those deaths are preventable. Tobacco is a known cause of lung, bladder, mouth, pancreatic, kidney, and stomach cancer, and is linked to significant causes of heart disease, emphysema, and other respiratory diseases known to society. We will support this motion, but we urge Associate Minister of Health the Hon Peter Dunne to seriously consider alcohol and tobacco use as also worthy of review. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2c5e257f84a41a485204f1e02484538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2c5e257f84a41a485204f1e02484538\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am led to believe that the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Peter Dunne, who moved this motion in the House, should be congratulated on an award that was made last night. I am not quite sure what it was, but I am sure that he received something. I have been informed of that by my colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour will, of course, support this motion to approve the Misuse of Drugs (Classification of Ketamine) Order 2009 and the Misuse of Drugs (Presumption of Supply\u2014Ketamine) Order 2009. How could any party object to the wiser use of a drug that potentially could be misused by young people in this country? It is important to specify, as previous speakers have done, the harm that is currently caused in this country by ketamine. That harm is at a very low level at this point. So I applaud the Associate Minister for moving this motion, which is clearly making the case that prevention is better than cure. If we had done this with other drugs, this country would be a whole lot better off. The previous speaker made reference to both nicotine and alcohol. If we were starting from a different place, I am sure we would have a similar amendment to regulations and legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen I read through the effects on recreational users of this drug, ketamine, I see that it delivers a short duration of hallucinogenic effects\u2014as, I guess, a very good cup of coffee might do. I am not trying to make light of it, but I think we do have to keep certain things in mind. It is usually snorted as a powder, so I guess some people might pretend they are having cocaine. Well, if they stick to this drug, it might be a good alternative way to get their hits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is a sad reality that young people and older people resort to drug use, and that no matter what we block, or make illegal, smart people around the world will come up with a new kind of drug. This drug, to be fair, is used at higher levels in Asian countries. That is why I think it is very fair for the Associate Minister and the whole House to assume that its prevalence could increase in this country. I think it is logical that we put in place some provisions that secure its storage. Vets and pharmacists will have to protect their supplies so it cannot be lifted easily, and there will be some penalties for illegal supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELet us look at those changes and at what will happen when we have reclassified the drug. There are some fairly severe penalties here, and that leads to a question that, I am sure, will be asked by many intelligent young people. As was said earlier, the effects of the use of this drug are not that severe. They are short term. In emergency departments across this country there have been, in the last year, two or three cases of hospitalisation through ketamine misuse, but there have been hundreds of cases of alcohol misuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn supporting this motion, I challenge to the Government to take up the package of recommendations from the Law Commission on alcohol use. When doctors, specialists, and nurses tell us every week that hundreds of people are in emergency departments because of alcohol misuse, the careful considerations of the Law Commission must be taken up by the Associate Minister and his colleagues in Cabinet. The Government should bring to this House comprehensive proposals and legislation that address alcohol-related harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe will look like a bunch of idiots and, I have to say, like a bunch hypocrites if we do not move on alcohol, which affects thousands of people every weekend, when we bring to this House a perfectly sound, reasonable proposition to reclassify ketamine, which puts two to three people each year into emergency departments. So let us be consistent. We have moved on tobacco, and I applaud the Government for that. I think it was a good move, but we have yet to see just how committed this Government really is to reducing the harm caused by alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe penalties in the case of ketamine are very severe. Supplying this drug to anyone under the age of 18 years carries a maximum penalty of up to 8 years\u2019 imprisonment. That is a severe penalty for a drug that puts two to three people into the emergency department each year, and I again compare that with alcohol. Let us get real here. Let us take the bull by the horns and take the opportunity to address drug harm in this country. It is upon this Minister and all Ministers to bring comprehensive recommendations back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour supports this reclassification on the basis that we want to reduce harm from the misuse of any drug in New Zealand. We think that this is a good move at this time, and we will be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc49c44620c945dfb69f859fd75e855d\u0022\u003ESentencing and Parole Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1f8953c7c70449facc5401ebfd0ce2b\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00223c57549cb06941daae1a6917a418cddf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c57549cb06941daae1a6917a418cddf\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill be now read a second time. This bill has two main purposes: to deny parole to repeat serious violent offenders and to offenders who are guilty of committing the worst murders, and to impose maximum terms of imprisonment on persistent repeat offenders who continue to commit serious and violent offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill is specifically focused on offenders who show no regard for victims, their families, or the community, and who are repeatedly convicted of serious violent and sexual offending. Parole is not a right for prisoners; it is a privilege. This privilege is earned, and it should not be granted to those who demonstrate total disregard for the law by continuing to commit serious violent offences, despite being warned of the consequences. This bill ensures that the victims of repeat offenders and their families do not have to experience the additional stress of attending regular parole hearings or worry that an offender may be released on parole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI thank the members of the Law and Order Committee and in particular the chair of the committee, Sandra Goudie, for returning this bill to the House in good time. The committee has recommended by majority that the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill, as amended, be passed. I also thank the ACT Party for its continued commitment to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn February 2010 the New Zealand Police became the lead advisers on the bill, with the Department of Corrections assisting. It was particularly important for New Zealand Police officials to advise the select committee. That was because the threshold for the regime was to be changed from a qualifying sentence to a conviction for a relevant offence. That meant that police discretion as to what charges were laid, and the charging process itself, would be critical to the operational elements of the new legislation. Under the new regime, all prosecutions involving charges that qualify for stage three of the regime will be referred to the Crown solicitor for peer review, either pre-charge where circumstances allow, or by the second appearance. This provides an assurance that the appropriate charges will be laid in those cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank all those members of the public who took the time to make submissions on the bill. Ninety-four percent of submitters supported the bill. They stated their concerns about violent crime, public safety, and the need to hold offenders to account. Many supporters wanted to address what they described as the disparity between the rights of offenders and those of victims, and to spare victims the stress associated with repeated parole hearings. In addition to that, concerns were expressed about how violent crime impacts negatively on the reputation of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOnly 3 percent of submitters opposed the bill. Many of those submitters considered that the Government should be focusing on addressing the causes of offending and/or reoffending. Let me assure those people that this Government has a strong focus on addressing the causes of offending, and it views that as a vital component of our efforts to create a safer community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party did not support this bill. Labour members say that it could result in disproportionate sentences for offenders at stage three. I make no apology for that. By stage three, an offender has been convicted of two previous serious violent offences and has been warned on two occasions, both orally and in writing, of the consequences of further convictions for serious violent offences. This legislation recognises the repeat nature of offending by those few who fail to heed the warnings and continue to offend regardless of the consequences. The community can rightly expect to be protected from these serious recidivist offenders for a lengthy period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn January this year the Government proposed a number of changes to the bill as introduced in February 2009 to better reflect the purpose of the bill. The Law and Order Committee agreed by majority that the bill be passed with those changes. The first change is that the threshold for each of the three stages of the regime has been changed to a conviction for a qualifying serious violent offence rather than a determinant prison sentence of 5 years or more or an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment. Secondly, the sentence for a conviction for a qualifying offence at stage three has been changed to the maximum sentence for that offence, and, unless it would be manifestly unjust, the court must order that the offender serve the sentence without parole. That replaces the sentence of life imprisonment with a minimum non-parole period of 25 years at stage three, as in the bill as introduced. Section 86 of the Parole Act 2002 is to be amended so that an offender serving a short-term sentence of imprisonment at stage two serves the sentence in full, rather than being released after serving half the sentence, as is currently the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOther changes have been made to ensure consistency in the definition of what constitutes a qualifying serious violent offence. This includes five further offences being added to the list of qualifying serious violent offences. All of these offences carry maximum penalties of more than 7 years\u2019 imprisonment, which is a defining characteristic of the offences in the bill as introduced. The offences are all closely related to the existing offences contained in the definition of \u201Cserious violent offence\u201D. In addition, all cases involving offenders on a final warning who are subsequently charged with committing a serious violent offence will have their cases heard in the High Court. Only the High Court, Court of Appeal, or Supreme Court will be able to sentence an offender for a stage three offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill creates a three-stage regime that will improve public safety by imprisoning the worst repeat violent and sexual offenders for longer periods and under stricter regimes if they continue to offend. At stage one, offenders who are convicted of a serious violent offence will be sentenced as normal, but will be warned, both verbally and in writing, that they are on the first rung of the regime and what will happen if they are convicted of another serious violent offence in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAt stage two, an offender who is convicted for a second time of a serious violent offence and has previously received a warning will be sentenced as normal but will be required to serve any sentence of imprisonment imposed by the court, without parole. Such offenders will also be warned, both verbally and in writing, of the consequences of a further conviction for a serious violent offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAt stage three, an offender who is convicted for a third time of a serious violent offence and has previously received a final warning at stage two must receive the maximum prison sentence for that offence and serve that sentence in full without parole. The exception to this is a conviction for manslaughter, for which an offender will be required to serve a life sentence with a minimum non-parole period of at least 20 years. The minimum non-parole period recognises the difference in seriousness between manslaughter and murder. The court also has the option at stage three of imposing a sentence of preventive detention, in which case the minimum non-parole period must not be less than the maximum finite term of imprisonment for the offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill makes specific provision for those convicted of murder at either stage two or three of the regime. At either stage, an offender convicted of murder will be required to serve a life sentence without parole. However, this bill also recognises that in some very rare cases the circumstances of the offender and the offence will be such that a sentence served without parole would be manifestly unjust. The bill takes that into account and makes provision for the court, where it is satisfied that a non-parole order would be manifestly unjust, to not make such an order at stage three when imposing the maximum term for a serious violent offence, or when imposing a sentence of life imprisonment for murder at stage two or three. In the case of murder, the court can instead direct that a substantial minimum term of imprisonment be served before parole eligibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition to the three-stage regime, the bill makes special provision for offenders who are convicted of the worst murders. In these cases, offenders can be sentenced to imprisonment for life without parole, even if they do not have a record of previous violent offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill is tangible evidence that the Government is delivering on its election promise to toughen up on criminals. I am proud that this bill puts the victim\u2019s and the wider community\u2019s interests ahead of the interests of our worst serious violent offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill may appear harsh to some, but I make no apologies for it. The bill is aimed at the minority of offenders who even after receiving two previous warnings continue to offend in a serious, violent way. These people have demonstrated that they will not change, and for those few people there is no alternative but to prevent them from offending in such a way that they no longer present a danger to law-abiding New Zealanders and visitors to this country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00229d788cc0027043c58955051ff2278e78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d788cc0027043c58955051ff2278e78\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E In the 16 December 2009 Cabinet paper from the Minister of Police, who is also the Minister of Corrections, which is entitled Changes to the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill, the Ministry of Justice noted: \u201C\u2026 the deterrence effect of the three stage regime is uncertain. The proposals will add substantial direct costs to the justice system without creating any significantly improved outcomes in terms of reducing the drivers of crimes, improving social outcomes or reducing reoffending and victimisation.\u201D The Department of Corrections also said in its report to the Law and Order Committee: \u201CFurther information requested by the Law and Order Committee regarding prison bed forecasts\u201D\u2014which was received on 5 March 2010\u2014indicates \u201C\u2026 there is an implicit assumption that the Bill will have no deterrent impact.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that those reports from the two departments that are now advising on this matter are of significance for the quality of the debate that we now have to have. Obviously, the Government challenges the Opposition on the basis of saying that this measure proves that the Government is tougher on crime than Labour is. I say to this House that it is not a competition. I am deeply concerned about a Government that proceeds with a measure such as this when the Minister of Justice and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs are attempting to engage with the broader community, which has an interest in these matters. Those Ministers are trying to find some way of addressing the underlying drivers of crime in an environment where we actually can have a debate about the things that will make a difference in the long term, without having to be challenged on something that we know is not an effective deterrent and that the Government knows is not an effective deterrent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe other problem I have with debating this measure before we have had a response from the Government on the ministerial meeting on the Drivers of Crime, which the Government held just over a year ago last month, is that we still have not seen the fruit of the work that people put into that meeting, nor the subsequent work that has been done ever since. I know that one of the areas of work is on reoffending, because our reoffending rates are pretty, pretty appalling. I think one of the reasons our reoffending rates are so appalling is that there is a lack of work being done on rehabilitating and directing people away from the prison system at a very early stage. There are people ending up in our prison system too early and without the level of intervention that one would expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo let us go through the circumstances of one gentleman who ended up in the category that was defined by Minister Collins. He was brought up here in New Zealand, and although I am not sure of his age now, we are going back into the 1950s. His stepfather saw fit to tie him to the dog kennel in the backyard as a punishment for his constant bad behaviour inside the house. He thought that tying him to the dog kennel would be a good way to get him to behave well when he was inside the house. This young boy, this child, ended up with an entirely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdcd91fb12624c00b774d67de17443eb\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3eb93303b28476bad241a1108e949e6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the fact that that member is the driver behind this bill but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ed5f299b0f043208e3ec0ecc710a067\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s hear the name of this person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206cc234d36ef4734858617a6221191ea\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going to name an individual in this House. I will just have to ignore the barrage of interjections from somebody who does not want to hear the example that I want to use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI wanted to say that when people have been brought up in an environment where they do not learn empathy or any of the behaviours that we would take to be normal, and where they do not have the capacity to form close relationships because they have not bonded with a significant adult at any stage since they were born, then we as a society are responsible for growing monsters, not for growing healthy young men with healthy attitudes and the capacity to form loving relationships. When a male child has only ever seen his father beat his mother to a pulp, it is really hard to think about how he is going to have a good relationship with a woman in the future. We have an intergenerational problem in this country. We do not fix that just by saying: \u201CHere is the mess, the disaster, that has been created in the lives of some people. Let\u2019s just lock them up for what they\u2019ve done. Let\u2019s not try to see whether there is some degree of humanity left within these individuals, or some potential for redemption and rehabilitation.\u201D I think what is missing from this debate completely is that there are people who have the capacity to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAll I am saying is that removing the discretion that sits with the judiciary, and allowing the judicial system simply to impose a sentence because certain previous offences have occurred, will not do anything to reduce the drivers of crime. It will not improve social outcomes, it will not reduce reoffending, and it will not reduce re-victimisation. That was identified in the departmental report to the Minister of Police, the Minister of Corrections, and the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs we know, this bill was subject to a report from the Attorney-General because it is questionable in terms of our obligations under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. The reason that was the case was that it was found to provide for disproportionately severe punishment. Of course, there are different messages that can be taken from the legislation. It really will depend on the order in which certain offences are committed, in order to get a disproportionate impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement that accompanied the original bill stated that the bill would be disproportionate, expensive, and impact most severely on M\u0101ori. I know that the M\u0101ori Party has a very strong view on this matter. It is very well accepted that a M\u0101ori is much more likely to be stopped by police. A M\u0101ori is much more likely to be arrested, if stopped. A M\u0101ori is much more likely to be charged, if arrested. He or she is much more likely to be charged with a more significant offence, if he or she is charged. He or she is much more likely to be convicted if he or she is charged, and he or she is much more likely to get a longer sentence than an equivalent individual who is not M\u0101ori, if he or she is found guilty of that offence. The evidence is out there for everyone to see. This bill will make that situation worse. This bill is about putting more M\u0101ori in prisons, when we really ought to be addressing why we have so many of them there now. M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented in our statistics, as we all know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe trouble is that this is one of those bills that is designed to send a message about what the Government is doing. Unfortunately, the message it sends is not backed up by any evidence anywhere in the world. It is not an effective way of addressing the issues the Government says it is trying to address. I think that is unfair not only on this House and the people of New Zealand but also on those who have been working very hard to try to address those underlying drivers of crime. That is where we know we can make the most substantial difference over the long term. Short-term quick fixes never work. This approach has never worked in any jurisdiction internationally. All of the evidence that has been put up in relation to the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policies in the American jurisdictions does not stack up when it is actually investigated. Unfortunately, this bill is predicated on a flawed foundation, and I do not believe that it should proceed any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc3d442055de4df7bc96b0899f112e7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc3d442055de4df7bc96b0899f112e7e\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to talk to the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill in the debate on its second reading. I acknowledge my Law and Order Committee colleagues for the excellent work that they did on this bill. I also acknowledge the Minister, advisers, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and the committee staff, who also did an excellent job of assisting in the process on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI point out to the previous speaker, Lianne Dalziel, that in January 2010 the Minister of Police, who is also the Minister of Corrections, took over responsibility for the bill for its remaining parliamentary stages, due to the significant roles that the New Zealand Police and the Department of Corrections will have in implementing the changes that are made in this legislation. So I correct the previous speaker: the Police were the advisers on the bill, not Ministry of Justice staff, and the comments about the Department of Corrections were also incorrect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt was particularly important for New Zealand Police officials to advise the select committee on whether we should change the threshold at which the new regime applies from a qualifying sentence to a conviction for a relevant offence. This change meant that police discretion as to which charges were laid, and the charging process itself, would be critical to the operational elements of the new legislation. Under the new regime all prosecutions involving charges that qualify for stage three of the regime will be referred to the Crown solicitor for peer review, either prior to any charge being laid where circumstances allow, or by the time of the person\u2019s second court appearance. This provides an assurance that the appropriate charges will be laid in that case. I thought it was pertinent to actually point out those things to the previous speaker, because she seems to have been somewhat incorrect in some of the things she was saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel also spoke about the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I recall that when she spoke to another bill, she mentioned the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and suggested that we have a moral obligation to allow prisoners, in that case, to vote. I suggest that in the first instance the moral obligation is on the individual not to commit a crime. Yes, this Government is taking action to find the drivers of crime and address them, but also it is taking action to deal to the perpetrators of crime, who fail to take responsibility for not committing crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI will also talk about how many offenders are likely to be affected, which was an issue raised by the previous speaker. The impact on the New Zealand prison population is estimated at 56 beds after 5 years, 142 beds after 10 years, and 288 beds after 20 years, at the most. These figures are based on 1980-2008 figures, and do not factor in the deterrent effect of the new policy. One must remember that there is a deterrent effect in a policy such as this, and as such the estimate is conservative, so the actual figure may indeed be much lower than that. One must also remember the victims in all of these crimes; this policy goes some way towards meeting the needs of victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EHow much will this policy cost? Again, this issue was mentioned by the previous speaker. After 5 years the operating cost is estimated to be $5.1 million per year, with a total capital cost of $22.4 million. The previous speaker may like to be cognisant of that. We are certainly not soft on crime, unlike the previous speaker from the Opposition. We believe that people have a moral obligation not to commit crime in the first place, because once they commit a crime they give up their rights. That is a consequence of committing a crime: they give up those rights, and they are subject to the full effect of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EHow will the bill work? This bill creates a three-stage regime that will improve public safety. That is the primary objective. Sentencing, parole, and bail should be driven by the need to put public safety first\u2014that is the primary driver\u2014and by giving some consideration to victims. I love to hear the comments from the Opposition members, who did nothing in 9 long years and now start to get all soft and \u201Ctouchy-feely\u201D. We are committed to taking the tough steps needed in order to tackle violent crime and make people feel safer in their homes and on the streets. I think that is incredibly important. Do members know that the public are feeling that already? It is exactly what they asked for, and that is what we are giving them. We are serious about better meeting the needs of victims and putting victims at the heart of our justice system, rather than putting criminals at the heart of the justice system, as the previous speaker seemed to do when she was in Government. We believe that there is a moral obligation on people not to commit crime, and that once they relinquish that moral obligation, they relinquish their rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAt stage one, offenders who are convicted of a serious violent offence will be sentenced as normal, but will be warned\u2014as has been previously said\u2014both verbally and in writing that they are on the first rung of the regime. They will also be warned about what will happen if they are convicted of another serious violent offence in the future. At offence one\u2014at the first strike\u2014they are told about the likely consequences if they do not take control of themselves and take some responsibility for their behaviours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAt stage two, an offender who is convicted for a second time of a serious violent offence\u2014this is all about serious violent offences\u2014and who has previously received a warning will be sentenced as normal, but will be required to serve any sentence of imprisonment imposed by the court without parole. The sentence for that second offence will be served without parole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1b9bc9ef47434bb427e0425f851eca\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f030add7c7a14b98b73449f9a79ec95e\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Good job\u2014absolutely. My colleague says: \u201CGood job.\u201D, and I am sure most people out there will also be saying: \u201CGood job.\u201D Why should those offenders get parole? They have already been warned at the first offence, and they have been told what the consequences of further offending will be. Why should they suddenly get parole on the second offence? They did not take responsibility for their actions, so they must wear the consequences of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAt stage three, an offender who is convicted for a third time of a serious violent offence, and who has previously received a final warning at stage two, must receive the maximum prison sentence for that offence and serve that sentence in full without parole. That is as it should be. If offenders are going to do the crime, they need to do the time. They need to think more about their behaviours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022d123d86ab7884cb6a5ee3f3a007d8c11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d123d86ab7884cb6a5ee3f3a007d8c11\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party is very clear in its support of victims\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af0338ec34d416390d7d8421deedff0\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caba5dac56ca4207b110e8b9cee7175b\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Our period of time in Government proved that, as our learned friend down here would understand if he had followed us over that period of time. But the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is an outrageous bill. Enough international research says that lengthy prison sentences do not correct behaviour or get people on a better plane. I hope the M\u0101ori Party is voting against this bill, because there is no evidence to suggest that this will reduce crime. Regarding recidivism in M\u0101oridom, it is common knowledge that young M\u0101ori who commit a crime under the age of 22 or 23 will appear in court six times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI remind the Government about that great public servant Margaret Bazley, who recently let a report come out that suggested that the process of legal aid had a lot to answer for. I am appalled about that, and I relish the speech that my fine wh\u0101naunga Hekia gave, apparently out at the marae, about people\u2019s attitudes to how we should manage crime. She said that when the subject is M\u0101ori, the articles are splashed all over the front pages of the Dominion Post, or something like that, anyway. And that is a fact\u2014for example, if it is about a k\u014Dhanga reo misusing $20,000. But I remind members that a lot of those quick deliverers of profit, and finance companies, have gone down the gurgler\u2014it is outrageous\u2014yet we hear hardly anything about that. We hear hardly anything about that at the time; that is terrible. Small businesses are struggling at the moment; that will not help it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe can already hear the Government complaining about the lack of bed space in prisons. It is amazing. So the Government has a policy of \u201Cthree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D. If we listen to previous speakers we can get that hint of \u201CBash \u2019em over, lock \u2019em up, and everybody will know that we\u2019re tough! This is about tough love.\u201D But that is a whole lot of rubbish. If we go back to the time of the previous National Government, we heard them say, time and time again, that in correcting the insidiousness of crime, longer sentences were not the way to go. We recognise that, and that Government did say that, and meant it. But all of a sudden now, we have this huge flip-flop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Justice, Simon Power, has slowly and carefully distanced himself from this legislation. Everybody knows that. The commentaries from some of the senior judges of this country are saying the same thing. I could stand and hypothesise about history, and cite the facts about being colonised, but I will not. But if people were working-class people, I tell Mr Garrett, like those in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, and all those people were used as factory fodder, and the landed gentry and the upper class managed all the wealth, what would that member say about that? Of course there would be trouble. And the working-class P\u0101keh\u0101 were no different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ENow we get to this supposedly great time, and we ask how this will attract the vote. How will this attract the vote? We will sting them with it. It is unreal. It is said that this bill is good for victims. Well, if we read the writings about victims, we find that one of the real fears is how they broach it\u2014how they manage it. Of course, our families, having been victims, know that it is a horrendous experience. But there is all the essence for prolonging that hurt, that agony, in this long period of sentencing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Sandra Goudie, was really trying to play stand-over tactics. Yet the Attorney-General, Chris Finlayson, has found that the bill as introduced has an apparent inconsistency. So we can see that the gap in the Government is widening, is splitting, over the section of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act protecting New Zealanders against \u201Ccruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe \u2026 punishment\u201D. We had Hone Harawira and his colleagues huffing and puffing, and celebrating, about signing up to a United Nations declaration. That process will evolve, and history will tell us how it can help us. But that was about rights, so how can people in the Government support this bill? How can they do that? Where I come from, people still line up in the courts in Hastings, and so on. There are huge queues of them. Can we blame them if they are trying to feed their kids? Can we blame them if they are getting nicked for everything they are getting into? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIt is all very well to be clean and clear, and to pontificate about how well the world should work, but we were sent to Parliament\u2014some of us, anyway\u2014to protect and support those people. In my case, they are a whole lot of M\u0101ori, but they have not been recharged and counted up again, through no fault of their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis party believes in being tough on crime, but it is quite clear that some people have taken just a single line in legislation, and are making tougher sentences and bringing down crimes to benchmark something that is really academic. Experts say that. Mr Bolger was great in the sense of trying to push for, and have people understand that there were, different ways of correcting and penalising people for crime. We are supportive of the rights of victims, and we are supportive of those who are victims of people who are consistently committing horrendous crimes, but this is spreading the blanket so far that it is catching the people who are being penalised through no fault of their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWhen young M\u0101ori of 16 or 17 years of age go to court, the legal aid lawyers\u2014who have guaranteed payment\u2014say to them that they had better plead guilty till the lawyers work it out. They go to court again in 3 months\u2019 time, and the lawyers tell them again they had better plead guilty, but the lawyers get paid. Those young men go back the next time, and the lawyers tell them that they might get a deal for them. The young people say they will consider it, and then the lawyers try to bargain. So those lawyers are getting paid four times, but at the end of the day the M\u0101ori get locked up. Why should they be punished for minor issues and other such crimes? \u201CThree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D\u2014the only place that that is fit for is the softball paddock. We have the Minister here pitching the ball down to a whole lot of other fancy-footed academics, but the Minister is being unkind and trying to make out that this legislation is about getting tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThen Government members are squealing, because it is about beds. What about the 15 staff who are being put off in Gisborne at the moment? What about the 47 percent unemployed in Wairoa? That is how crime busts out, but it has to be managed. I heard the Minister one day, or someone over there today, saying it was about being intelligent. If this is how the Government wants to be perceived as being intelligent, then God forbid what will happen in our prison system as we go forward. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022335cf0dda84b446eaa0899d87e0e524a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335cf0dda84b446eaa0899d87e0e524a\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora koutou. The Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill purports to improve public safety and increase confidence in the justice system by imposing longer sentences and making certain offenders ineligible for parole. Those are admirable intentions. We would all like to practically increase both public safety and people\u2019s perception of safety, which is equally important. Unfortunately, nothing in this bill will contribute to either of those things\u2014confidence or safety. In fact, all the evidence points to exactly the opposite conclusion\u2014that these sorts of regimes do nothing for public safety and will probably make our societies more dangerous, more unequal, and more divided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very punitive and reactive approach, a very reactive proposal, and, for a host of reasons that have been alluded to, it is unlikely to have any real effect. It cannot have any effect for at least another 10 years, even if it were imposed in legislation, and that is something that has not been made clear to people. The Ministry of Justice has said that the deterrent effect of the regime is uncertain, which I think is very polite language. The Department of Corrections has also demonstrated real scepticism that there will be any deterrent impact from this bill. Again, in relation to their language one does not have to read very carefully between the lines to see that the expertise in those two key departments is telling us that this legislation simply will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe provisions in the bill will not reduce offending, and after having heard so many promises and so many assurances, the public expectation will be disappointed. The bill will serve to diminish people\u2019s confidence in our justice system. They again will ask: \u201CWhy has it failed? Why do we not feel safe? Why are the crime numbers not telling us we are in a better situation?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis bill is a classic example of an end-of-pipe solution. The Government is attempting to tidy up the mess. It is dealing with the symptoms at the end of a process, rather than going to the root cause, to the beginning of whatever process is causing the mess in the first place. Putting the focus on locking offenders away for longer and giving them a tougher time while they are in prison is simply an exercise in storing up trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EEventually those offenders will be released into society, be it after 5, 10, or 20 years\u2014however long. With very few exceptions, offenders will come back into society so alienated and so brutalised that they will be almost impossible to reintegrate. We are literally storing up trouble for ourselves by putting serious offenders in prison for longer and treating them in the way that is proposed in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe time and effort that has been frittered away on this non-solution, this attempt to put a band-aid on a gaping wound, would have been much better spent on some real solutions. There are some truly sensible people in this country who despair of us breaking the cycle of offending and reoffending, of people entering jail for the first time as offenders and coming out as very skilled criminals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Greens agree with the many in the community who do not share the obsession with retribution and punishment for its own sake. We look for evidence-based solutions, and we look for solutions that will work for the community. The legislation being debated today simply fails to meet those simple tests of value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe know there are numerous changes that could be made to lower the incidence of violent offending and to reduce offending. A study done by the Department of Corrections 10 years ago into the prevalence of mental illness revealed that of the total prison population some 90 percent had a current substance abuse or dependence diagnosis, and that only 35 of those were receiving adequate treatment at that time. The report also noted that substance abuse disorders are known to contribute to reoffending among offender populations. It is almost taken as a given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ETen years on, the recent Law Commission paper on liquor includes a summary of the relationship between crime, alcohol, and other drug abuse and dependence. It estimates that something like 76,000 people are currently in need of intervention. These are people who come into the justice system either as accused or as offenders, and they are in need of some sort of drug or alcohol treatment. Of those 76,000 in need of help, in the last 12 months or so, judges were able to order scarcely more than 6,000, only about 7 percent of that number, to attend a substance abuse programme, simply because those programmes are not there. They are not funded; they do not exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere is a massive need for more drug and alcohol abuse prevention programmes. Without more such programmes people will stay on the treadmill of repeated and increasingly serious offending. The National Committee for Addiction Treatment suggests that at least a doubling of funding would increase the number of people able to be treated to, perhaps, 50,000, which still leaves a significant gap between those needing help and those in front of the justice system. Until we begin to adequately address some of the primary causes, like drug and alcohol abuse and dependence, these longer sentences and other make-believe solutions are just window dressing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe second area where the investment of relatively small sums of money could have a real and positive effect on reducing the number of offenders is the provision of better support and assistance to the families of offenders. This can improve prisoners\u2019 behaviour while they are serving their sentences, and it will certainly increase the likelihood of their keeping out of trouble when they come out of jail. On occasion, family backgrounds are part of the root cause of offending, but in many more cases positive family relationships, and maintaining those relationships, will go a long way towards breaking the reoffending cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EComparative studies in Europe demonstrate that a combination of shorter sentences\u2014not longer sentences; shorter sentences\u2014and family-oriented prison policies and practice is a major factor in protecting children from the harmful effects of parental imprisonment and in breaking the intergenerational cycle. If families are adequately supported, then the children are much less likely to become offenders during an offender\u2019s term in jail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe relevant research in New Zealand around the relationship between imprisonment and the effect on families is some 10 or 20 years old. No decent work has been done for nearly two decades. All the work that has been done points to the fact that some really simple strategies could help us to reduce offending, such as small amounts of financial assistance for travel, improving prison visiting conditions and facilities, and information on prison protocols being made available to families. There is no current research, but there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence from the base organisations, the voluntary and community organisations that work in this area, that very little has changed in the last two decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI have spoken personally to families of inmates, as I am sure other members have, and we hear the same stories again and again. It is incredibly difficult for people, even for educated people, to get basic information about where a family member is, what ways they can assist their family member, and how they can maintain a relationship with him or her. It is difficult even for people who are confident in dealing with bureaucracies and Government departments, who are resourced, and who have jobs and incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is exponentially more difficult for someone from a disadvantaged background, somebody without an education and without an income, or someone on a benefit with dependent children. It is almost impossible for those people to break through those barriers. I have heard that from the families of inmates, and I have heard acceptance of that point from officers in the Department of Corrections, the people who work in the prisons. It is time we put some real resource into those areas, because those are the real solutions. Locking offenders up and throwing away the key is a 19th century approach. It is not even worthy of our attention, and it should not come before this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EMy final comments are, I am sure, ones that have been made elsewhere. The process of getting this bill to this stage has been suboptimal, to say the least. Despite very significant and substantive changes to the original bill, there was completely inadequate opportunity for a second round of submissions, and a highly prescriptive approach to engaging with the communities of interest, and that begs the question: what were the proponents of the bill afraid of? Why would they not allow a decent and comprehensive second round of submissions to a significantly changed bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs members may have gathered from my comments, the Greens will continue to oppose this legislation, and we hope that significantly better and more intelligent proposals will come to this House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf13cd5207b145cfb0f1ee4d3ddd75d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf13cd5207b145cfb0f1ee4d3ddd75d2\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very proud day for the ACT Party and for our members and supporters, who have campaigned for many, many years for the better protection of law-abiding citizens. It shows that those people who have supported the ACT Party and voted for it have made a difference to our country and will make our country a safer place in which to live. The ACT Party, as part of its constitution, has the view that the primary role of any Government is to keep citizens safe in their communities, in their places of work, and at home. We are also aware, as a party, that keeping our communities safe is part of the wider set of policies that are needed in order to deal with disadvantage in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI take on board the comments made by the Labour Party and the Green Party. The way that the ACT Party looks at the wider issues is that in order to address poverty and economic and social disadvantage, we must reform welfare, keep our communities safe from crime, improve education through providing a choice of schools, and stop taxing low-income people as punitively as we do. Instead, our taxation system punishes enterprise and hard work, our welfare system encourages attitudes that destroy personal responsibility, self-reliance, and self-confidence, and our schooling system fails up to a third of our children. Out of all these failures has come a crime rate, particularly a rate of violent crime, that should shame us all. Our poorest communities suffer the most from criminal offending\u2014from petty offences through to the most violent offences. Murder, rape, and aggravated robbery have become all too common. I say to Mr Horomia that it is from amongst M\u0101ori that the ACT Party, in comments, has received the most support, because M\u0101ori suffer so badly from violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOur sentencing system is weak, and the parole system has clearly failed us. Offenders who are released on parole all too often commit further violent crime. These criminals have torn apart the lives of their victims. Their victims must live with the effects of the crime\u2014the pain, the fear, the anguish\u2014for the rest of their lives. For victims, the crime is just the beginning. ACT campaigned hard for tougher sentencing, with the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy at the 2008 election. After the election we negotiated an agreement with National to give ACT\u2019s \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy a fair hearing at the Law and Order Committee, and throughout the past year ACT and National have worked constructively together to agree on a \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy designed to keep Kiwis safe. I particularly single out the Minister of Justice, Simon Power; the Minister of Police, Judith Collins; the Prime Minister; and the entire National caucus as those with whom we have had many discussions over the past year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is a huge step towards getting the most violent repeat offenders off our streets and keeping law-abiding citizens safe. The \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy that it implements is focused on a small subset of criminal activity. It is not by any means a policy that addresses the wider set of issues surrounding effective policing or that gets younger people off a pathway towards committing crime. Those issues are, of course, of the utmost importance, but the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy is an essential part of the full mix of policies that are needed. It is focused solely on the worst violent crimes; it is focused on the few offenders who repeatedly commit violent crime. Unlike the Californian law, people will not receive severe sentences under this law from conviction for relatively trivial offences. The offences on the qualifying list all represent serious crimes. This policy is about protecting our citizens from violent repeat offenders. It will keep our communities safe by deterring those criminals who are rational enough to see that their repeat violent offending will be met with an escalating level of punishment. Those who are not rational will be locked away, which is as it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOn strike one the offender will receive a sentence with parole as determined by a judge, as at present. Nothing will change, except this: the judge will tell the offender that that is strike one. At strike two, the offender will receive a sentence as determined by a judge, but now with no parole. Again, the judge will tell the offender that that is strike two. At strike three, the offender will receive the maximum sentence for that crime, with no parole. That is strike three: the maximum sentence with no parole. An essential element of the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy is that it deliberately escalates the punishment for repeat violent offenders. Most offenders will not want to risk a second strike, so when they are told about their first strike, they will have to think very, very hard about whether to amend their ways or carry on with a life of violent crime. Is it not a good thing to send a signal to young, male, violent offenders that it is a good idea to stop their violent offending? Is that not the sort of signal that we would want to send to M\u0101ori, Pacific Islanders, Europeans, or whoever else commits that crime in our community? That is what this bill will do. Most offenders will not want to risk a second strike, and they certainly will not want to risk a third strike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe evidence demonstrates that these policies work. Some offenders modify their behaviour, and I ask again whether that is not a good thing. No longer will they hurt people, but, more particularly, they will improve the way that they live their lives. Those who do not modify their behaviour will be locked away for longer than is the case currently\u2014and so they should be, because, as I said, the ACT Party has the view that our first priority is to protect people from violent crime. If people cannot modify their behaviour, and if they are going to come out and kill, rape, and maim people, then we say our first priority is to keep our citizens safe. That is what the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThis policy is about making New Zealand a safer place in which to live, work, and raise our children. It is about sending the very powerful signal to repeat violent offenders that their repeat violent offending will no longer be tolerated. I say it is about time that we all stood up as New Zealanders and said no to violent crime. It is time that all of us in this House stood up and said we will not tolerate repeat violent crime and we will not make excuses for it. I am astonished to be sitting here and listening to members of the Labour Party and the Green Party excuse it. I think that that might be OK for those people who are protected and safe from violent crime and who do not live amongst it on a day-by-day basis. But I say that, for the first time ever, we have a Government that hears the message of New Zealanders. It is responding to the concern of New Zealanders and is saying \u201CHalt, enough!\u201D to violent crime. We will not tolerate repeat violent crime. I say to New Zealanders that everyone can see, on this day in this Parliament, that the ACT Party has made a difference, that people\u2019s support for the ACT Party has made a difference, and that their vote for the ACT Party has made a difference. I think it is a shame that more MPs have not heard the concerns of their communities that it is now well past the time when we should have said no to repeat violent offending. This is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfe07cec1a064f30a276a6965ae76704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfe07cec1a064f30a276a6965ae76704\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to stand and speak\u2014somewhat huskily\u2014on the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u2019s National-led Government, as we know, is principled and pragmatic, and it is seeking solutions to the many challenges facing our country. We in National are keeping our promises. We promised action, and we are taking action on combating violent crime. We are making families safer in their homes and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a raft of legislation that we have brought to the House: legislation to toughen sentences and parole and bail conditions for violent offenders, to crack down on gangs and on P, and to support the victims of crime. We have also initiated Fresh Start programmes. Almost 3,000 young offenders benefited last year from interventions to turn them away from a life of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWe in National recognise that drug and alcohol addiction is the root cause of much crime, and we have increased the access to drug and alcohol rehabilitation programmes. We have recognised the woeful undermanning of the police under the previous lacklustre, lackadaisical, unlamented Labour administration. We have already deployed over 200 more police in the Manukau-Manurewa area, where I have the privilege of being based. A hundred more police will be deployed by the end of 2010, and 300 more police will be deployed nationwide by the end of next year. Along with initiatives in health, social policy, and education and initiatives addressing the drivers of crime, those are some of the areas of the previous Government\u2019s mesh that we will be reshaping in our effort to make our communities more secure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWe have heard some criticism from Opposition members. But I ask how useful its policies were in reducing crime when it was last in Government. In fact, some might ask whether it had any policy in this area. We may well ask. I believe that it did, but how useful was that in reducing crime and making New Zealanders feel safer in their homes and on their streets? Judging by what I saw when walking the streets of Manurewa in 2008, I would say that it was not very useful. People had three locks on their doors, and they had two more locks on the screen outside. Labour\u2019s policy was not very useful. People might ask how useful it was. It was perhaps as useful as a cricketer\u2019s box to a ballerina. It was as useful as a drink of water to a drowning man. It was as useful as a sunhat at midnight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is part of the National-led Government\u2019s raft of measures to make our communities safer. Let us not ignore the fact that it puts the interests of victims and the wider community ahead of the interests of our worst and most serious violent offenders. This bill is aimed at the minority of offenders, who, even after receiving two previous warnings, continue to offend in a serious and violent way. Those people have demonstrated that they will not change, and for those few people there is no alternative but to prevent them from reoffending, in such a way that they no longer present a danger to law-abiding men and women living in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003ENot one of the 41 qualifying offences for the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D is a relatively minor offence. All offences involve serious violence or sexual offending, and all have a maximum penalty of at least 7 years in prison. In defending the rights of offenders, critics of \u201Cthree strikes\u201D downplay the goal of the legislation, which is to protect the public from criminals who have a track record of serious offending. This bill does not focus on the poor or innocent, who are, unfortunately, dealt with by the State; it focuses on the repeat nature of offending rather than just the offence itself. Critics of \u201Cthree strikes\u201D may also argue that offenders do not consider the consequences of their actions when they commit crime. Critics say that the offenders did not know what they were doing when they committed their crimes, and that longer sentences are not an effective deterrent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe road to a third strike is a long one, involving clear warnings delivered by a judge about the consequences of further serious offending and considerable time in prison, where it is hoped that they will reflect on their actions. When making a choice of whether to commit a third serious crime, offenders will have a very good idea of what is in store for them. I comment this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e932514a19384a5e9a0689f794041b27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e932514a19384a5e9a0689f794041b27\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau): \u003C/span\u003E\u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Huri rauna, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. When we want to look at prison statistics and prison programmes, at programmes that work and programmes that do not, we do not have to look any further than the good old USA, where dingbat sheriffs think they are clever to march prisoners around in pink uniforms, and idiots sign laws allowing police to arrest and jail anyone who looks like they might be an illegal immigrant\u2014people like Parekura Horomia and Mita Ririnui sitting over there! The USA is also where Governor Arnold \u201CThe Terminator\u201D Schwarzenegger oversees California\u2019s penal system, which is facing a crisis of overcrowding, with more than 167,000 inmates, often triple-bunked, angry, fearful, and exploding into violence across our screens every week on America\u2019s Hardest Prisons. California\u2019s penal system costs $8 billion, which is 11 percent of the state budget\u2014and blowing out of control as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EArnie might be a muscle freak, but he did not get to be the governor of one of the world\u2019s top ten economies without having some smarts. It occurred to him that there had to be a better way to deal with prisoners than the philosophy of locking them up and throwing away the key, which the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D morons of the overseas and domestic variety would use to deal with crime. So he proposed a simple solution. He divided criminals into two categories: those who pose little or no risk, and those who need regular supervision. The idea was to take all the less threatening prisoners out of jail and put them into other programmes. It was a simple solution, but it was a seismic shift in reform, and it has been long sought by independent analysts and commissions into penal reform. That brings us back to Aotearoa, where, instead of trying to learn from the mistakes of the Californian penal system, we seem hell-bent on following it down the deep dark hole that Arnie is struggling to get out of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is scary. It ignores even the advice of the Government\u2019s own Attorney-General that the \u201Cthree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D law could be in breach of our fundamental human rights, and, in particular, in breach of the section of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act that protects New Zealanders against cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe punishment, such as having to face a sentence of life imprisonment for, perhaps, a third charge involving the unlawful discharging of a firearm, which is a common occurrence at T\u016Bhoe and Ng\u0101puhi tangihanga, and T\u016Bhoe Treaty settlements, for that matter. Unlawfully discharging a firearm could mean using granddad\u2019s rifle when one is out hunting, having never even thought to get it registered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EExperts like Dr John Pratt, Professor of Criminology at Victoria University, will tell us what I told the House last week about a similar \u201Ckick them while they\u2019re down\u201D bill, which is that without a sound philosophical base, penal measures are nothing more than the nasty, vicious form of vengeance that we thought had died out in Europe before P\u0101keh\u0101 even came here. Just 5 years ago, a Cabinet paper entitled Effective Interventions concluded that there are smarter ways than prison to prevent crime and make criminals accountable to their victims and to society, and that prison is not the most effective or efficient approach to reducing crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThat same paper noted than even the practice of remanding people in custody was being influenced by growing public, political, and media pressure for change. In fact, in the 10 years from 1997 to 2007, prison sentences went up by 37 percent but cases of remand in custody went up by 214 percent. All of that, of course, saw the Department of Corrections\u2019 budget blow out to $900 million for 2007-08, and if we carry on the way we are going, the budget blowout will be $2 billion by 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe silly thing is that this mania about building more and more prisons and filling them even before they are built, and at a cost that this country cannot sustain, is not only illogical but also unnecessary. International research out of Washington confirms that there are excellent alternatives to prison, which reduce not only the demand for prison beds but also crime. The problem, though, is that although all our resources are being siphoned off into building prisons, doubling up the bunks in cells, putting prisoners in containers, and locking inmates down for 16 hours to cope with overcrowding, the positive programmes for prisoner rehabilitation, like work, training, and education, are being closed off. We cannot even provide for 500 drug rehab places a year in a system with 6,500 prisoners who are currently drug or alcohol dependent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EInternational evidence tells us that \u201Cthree strikes\u201D has led to a massive increase in prison populations and jailhouse homicides. It has had a major negative impact on non-violent offenders, their families, and their poor communities. It has resulted in a blowout in cost for society, and the problem is getting worse. The evidence also shows that imprisonment does not deter crime, and that harsher prison conditions and longer sentences do not reduce reoffending. The evidence shows that reductions in crime usually come about through better drug and alcohol programmes, greater employment and education opportunities, stronger families, and stronger communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor the last few years, we have seen a \u201Cbuild \u2019em and we will fill \u2019em\u201D philosophy in terms of our prisons, to the point where prisons targeted to be completed in 2011 are already filled in 2010, before building has been finished. That philosophy will be exacerbated by the \u201Cthree strikes and you\u2019re out\u201D rule, because it means we will be locking them up in rugby clubs and moving them around the country in buses at night time because there are no other beds for them to sleep in. We will be filling up the day rooms at police stations. We will run out of places to put people in jail. We will simply not be able to sustain that, because, at the end of the day, we either lock them up for life\u2014and we pay for it for life; we pay for it through the nose for life\u2014or they will get out. And when they get out, they will be seriously upset people, and they will take that out on a whole lot of other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThere is no rehabilitation in this proposal. There is no intent to use the opportunity to change the nature of some of these people. I hear people asking how many chances they need. They do not even need one chance\u2014it is about giving them the right chance the first time. The threat of heavier and heavier punishment does not change people. All it does is piss them off. It makes them angrier, so when they come out they will be worse than when they went in. We have to try to turn this round, and the \u201Cbash \u2019em and bash \u2019em again\u201D philosophy has been proven not to work overseas. We would be foolish to go down that track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIf the evidence was different, I would say to give it a try. But the evidence is not different. It suggests that the best opportunity to turn people\u2019s lives round is to try to get to them before they get to prison, to improve their lot, to address the causes of crime, rather than the effects of crime, and to attack poverty in the home. Wh\u0101nau Ora provides the opportunity for M\u0101ori on this side of the House, and on the other side of the House, to put our hands up and say we think we can do better, and then to challenge ourselves to do better, so that we do not need Draconian legislation like this. This bill will simply take our country backwards into a time of vengeance and nasty, mean-spirited viciousness; the kind of punishment meted out to people in 16th century England. Koin\u0101 n\u014D m\u014D t\u0113nei w\u0101. Thank you very much. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00223ebd7428a12743feae39027c3d8ad108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ebd7428a12743feae39027c3d8ad108\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I start my speech on the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill by congratulating the member from the M\u0101ori Party, Hone Harawira, on a fantastic speech. On this side of the House we agree with the member, and that is not always the case. For its key platform this Government said\u2014if I can remind members in the House\u2014that there would be 100 days of action. Enough was enough, there was blood on the streets, and this Government was going to get tough on crime and fix things! Eighteen months later, we see that that is simply not the case. The National Government has brought in that legislation, which is very similar to the legislation we see before the House today, and what have we seen? What are the results of that legislation? Violent crime has escalated dramatically under the National Government. Now we are seeing the highest homicide rates in New Zealand in decades, under a Government that said it would fix it. It said it had the remedies, and its 100 days of action would get tough on crime and fix it. Well, it simply has not. This Government should hold its head in shame for the record that it has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI would be very interested to hear the Minister of Justice, Simon Power, to take a call on this. I would be very interested for Chris Finlayson, the Attorney-General to take a call. They know that this legislation will not fix things. If anything, this legislation will make things worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI pause for a moment, because this week is Rape Awareness Week, and it is important in this House that we acknowledge the victims of sexual assault, and their courage, in terms of what they have been through and what they go through with re-victimisation during the court process. It is also important to acknowledge the agencies that advocate for victims of serious crime, and to acknowledge the support they give. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhen Rodney Hide gave his speech, he spoke about keeping New Zealand safe\u2014that was the key focus of this legislation; it was about keeping New Zealand safe. I say to this Government and to the ACT Party that one of the key principles should be about supporting victims and ensuring that they are treated fairly through the system. It is about crime prevention. It is about ensuring that agencies have the funding they need to work with people to cut the cycle of crime. It is about ensuring that police have the funding and support they need. All we are seeing is the funding for those very services that would actually have an impact on violent crime in this country being cut. The results speak for themselves. The escalating violent crime rates are an absolutely clear picture of what this Government, through its policies, has brought about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EOne of the consequences in terms of the victims of crime, and I will talk about it in terms of the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D policy, is that this will result in fewer guilty pleas. If an offender is on stage three, or even on stage two, that offender will not think \u201COh goodness, I must not be naughty any more.\u201D At this point these people will think they cannot possibly admit it, they cannot plead guilty, because all that will happen is that they will get the worst-case scenario, so they have no choice. Whereas an offender could possibly be in a position where he or she thinks \u201CRight, I will be accountable for what I have done.\u201D, and will plead guilty. But where is the incentive when they know that if they do that, they will get the toughest sentence possible? There is no logic to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhat does that mean for victims? It means they are re-victimised. So many victims say that that is exactly what the court process does when they have to go through the lengthy trial because there is no incentive at all for offenders to plead guilty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI also remind this House that Labour tried to bring in sentencing guidelines. The recommendation from the Law Commission was to introduce sentencing guidelines, so there would be consistency in sentencing, and a steer in terms of serious crime. That would have been a really good initiative, and it was strongly supported, but not by National and not by ACT. If we did have that consistency, then that would go a long way to addressing many of the concerns that have been raised by victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI also will talk about the research that\u2014as the previous speaker said\u2014found that imprisonment has little, if any, deterrent effect. There is a great deal of evidence saying that it does exactly the opposite. This \u201Cthree strikes\u201D legislation, due to its cost\u2014and I will talk about the cost in a moment\u2014will not achieve anything, except a sweetheart deal with the ACT Party to keep it sweet in order to keep National in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e82ca4831ec4f2a8ca8c589f06accc1\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Cynical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb157dcc16b404e8f1f72047824b66b\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: It is very cynical. We on this side of the House are very cynical about the motivation behind that. If this were good legislation, then we would see the Minister of Justice standing up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef3cf42fb374cb3805e3b1badc8da73\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: And the Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4ee8c17ead4a419b06b10ff19dbd5d\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the Attorney-General standing up in support of it. Do we see that? No, we do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI will talk about the financial cost. We all know the financial cost, and that every cost\u2014every cent, let alone dollar\u2014that is put into prisons is money that is not spent in preventing crime, or in supporting victims. I will explain for the other side of the House\u2014I do not know that National members know the figures\u2014that this policy requires an extra 50 prison beds after 5 years, 142 prison beds after 10 years, and that increases to 725 prison beds after 50 years. After 5 years the operating cost is estimated to be $5.1 million a year, with a total capital cost of $22.4 million. After 20 years, the operating cost will be $26.2 million, with a total capital cost over $115 million; and after 50 years, the operating cost will be $66 million per year, and the capital cost will be a total of $290 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWe are not saying that there are no offenders who would get the maximum penalties; indeed, they do. We on this side of the House are not saying that. We are saying that to have that as the cost for everybody found guilty on his or her third offence, irrespective of what has happened, or irrespective of the case, is absolutely ludicrous. There is no evidence at all, in summary, that longer sentences reduce crime\u2014none whatsoever. If we look at the US, we see that the evidence is exactly the opposite. Therefore, the policy is absolutely ineffective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThere is no parole for good behaviour, so what is the incentive for prisoners to go into rehabilitation schemes and address what they have done? What is the incentive when they know that no matter how impeccably behaved they are\u2014and we know that that is not the case in prison\u2014there is no parole, even if they face up to their crimes and try to fix their problems so that when they are back in the community they will not reoffend again? There is absolutely no incentive, whatsoever. This legislation is absolutely flawed. It does nothing. It does nothing for victims and it does nothing to halt crime. The previous Labour Government was not soft on crime; as people know, we brought in tougher sentences when we were in Government. There is no incentive whatsoever for criminals to plead guilty or to improve themselves when in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00226e052cc8f2f64c9882d29c540e22ac8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e052cc8f2f64c9882d29c540e22ac8e\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Let us get it right: there is a punitive element to prison. It is punishment, as well as a covering of many other bases. Let us get it right that the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is talking about the protection of citizens in our society. It is addressing not only the issue of wanting to reduce crime but also the issue of wanting to make our society safer on the outside for our citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EIt is easy to rail against the Government because of recent increases in crime statistics, but we know, and members opposite understand, that this issue is endemic, that the problem is often generational, and that turning the tide takes more than 18 months. But we are putting in policies and processes that will do exactly that. Labour says that the Sentencing and Parole Acts of 2002 achieved the same purpose as the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D legislation, but we say that those Acts did not go nearly far enough in protecting the community from the worst repeat violent offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EAs a background, I tell members that under the Parole Act 2002 offenders sentenced to prison for 2 years or less are automatically released after serving half their sentences, and those with sentences longer than 2 years are eligible for parole after serving only one-third of their sentences. The public has been concerned about the number of serious offences committed by people who have been released on parole, and concerned that sentences of home detention have been given to violent criminals. Home detention was designed as an option for non-violent offenders. Under the previous Government it was given to too many violent sex and drug offenders who posed a serious threat to the community. The figures are these: in 2006 and 2007 more that 50 percent of offenders on home detention had convictions for violent sexual and drug offences, compared with 39 percent in 2001 and 2002. That is an unacceptable relaxation of attitude, but it also speaks of the increase in crime through that decade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EOur Minister of Corrections, the Hon Judith Collins, recently said: \u201CIn the 18 months that I have been police minister I have been shocked at the level of violent and anti-social behaviour in our society. There is a section of our community that has no respect for other people and no respect for the law. We are seeing it in the frequent attacks on police and innocent members of the public.\u201D I take that on board, and I have listened to the comments regarding the wider issues. As a Government, we are committed to long-term, comprehensive measures by dealing with the drivers of crime. They are just as important as responding to the aftermath of crime. The Hon Simon Power has said: \u201CAs you will be aware, most of the government\u2019s agenda for law and order since the last election has been dominated by measures to improve the immediate safety of the public.\u201D, and so it should be, but we also need to get serious about how we stop crime from happening in the first place. So we are approaching this issue from both directions\u2014that of the drivers of crime, and that of the protection of society today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThese are some of the questions that our political leaders are confronted with and that we are confronted with as a Parliament. We want lasting solutions, but today we are forced to draw a firmer line. It is a line meaning that should people continually choose not to be law-abiding members of our society, but to be persistent repeat offenders of violent crime, then the constraint of the law, which seeks to bring freedom and protection for its citizens, will deny freedom to those who abscond from that responsibility. The law causes constraints to curtail their behaviour, in order to ensure that the rights of others are protected so that they can live in freedom. When people refuse to live under such reasonable constraints of law, the law constrains them until those persistent repeat offenders come to the ultimate constraint, where, for the sake of the freedom of others, their freedom must be denied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThis bill is about freedom. It is about who deserves freedom most. The Prime Minister has said: \u201CWhere there is a balancing of rights to be done between criminals and victims, \u2026 I will take a side. And that side will be the side of the victim.\u201D However, there is a discretionary measure in this bill. It recognises that in some very rare cases, the circumstances of the offender and the offence will be such that a sentence served without parole would be manifestly unjust. The bill takes this into account, and it makes provisions for the court where the court is satisfied that a no-parole order would be manifestly unjust at stage three when imposing the maximum term for a serious violent offence. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227406e1991a7240ce8bceffb3da89f4fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227406e1991a7240ce8bceffb3da89f4fb\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E As with all debates on law and order, the rhetoric is the easy part. It is easy to stand up and say that we will be tough on crime by locking up more criminals for longer and that we will make communities safer by locking up more people for longer. The reality is somewhat different. I find it totally offensive that any member of the House would label another member or group of members, based on their support or opposition to this particular measure, as being soft on crime or tough on crime. It is a lot more complicated than that, and the public of New Zealand deserve better than the type of hollow rhetoric that so often characterises the debates we have on law and order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EPeople are not stupid. People are smart enough to know that we have one of the highest incarceration rates in the developed world and that doing more of the same simply leads to more of the same. For the last couple of decades we have been on a trajectory that has seen us exponentially increase the number of people we have put into prison, but has that made our community safer? No, it has not. It has not made our community safer and it will not make our community safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI absolutely abhor violent crime, and I think, yes, those who commit violent crime should be held to account for their actions\u2014absolutely. But I think that we, as an entire community, should also be held to account for the moves that we take to prevent crime from happening in the first place, and should get serious about addressing the drivers of crime. I congratulate Simon Power on having the gumption to hold a ministerial meeting on the drivers of crime and on getting serious about some discussion around those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe, as a society, cannot keep turning our backs on the people who commit crimes, suggesting that only they are responsible. There is the old saying that it takes a village to raise a child, and it is absolutely true. We cannot simply turn our backs on the ones who get into trouble. We all have to accept responsibility for them. We have to accept the fact that, in many cases, offenders have themselves been victims before they were offenders. Often they have lived in households where little love was shown towards them, where they were abused, and where the love they knew was actually violence. We cannot turn our backs on them and simply say we will lock them up and throw away the key. We must look seriously at the causes of criminal offending, including the causes of violent crime. The rhetoric is the easy part; the solutions are a lot harder. I, for one, will not label members on any side of the House as soft or tough on crime based on whether they support or oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will talk about a number of serious concerns I have about this bill as it stands, and suggest that there are other, better ways that we can deal with the issues. I believe that this bill removes some of the motivations for offenders to reform and better themselves, and increases, in some cases, the likelihood of reoffending and the seriousness of the reoffending, should it occur. We can keep people in prison for longer, but there is no evidence, from anywhere, that suggests it makes them less likely to reoffend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis bill is bad for victims, and the Ministry of Justice has advised that it will lead to fewer guilty pleas and more appeals, which means the victims of crime will be dragged through lengthy and painful trials and appeals processes. That is one of the key questions that we should always ask in a law and order debate on any issue: what will this measure do for victims? Will it make them better off, will it help them, or will it simply provide them with an outlet for their anger?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI can understand why victims of crime often have so much anger towards those who commit criminal offences. That is one of the reasons that victims of crime are not on juries and are not the judges\u2014they cannot make objective judgments. It is why we have an independent judiciary. That practice goes back hundreds of years, and it is absolutely right for us to have an independent judiciary, and independent juries, so that proper decisions can be made, free from the emotion of being directly involved in something. I understand the anger that so many victims have. That does not mean we should necessarily be locking people up for longer and resorting to a much more primal instinct of retribution. It is not the right way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are many problems with this bill as it is drafted. It removes judicial discretion. As I said, we have to trust judges. Only on the first qualifying offence will the court solely determine the sentence. For the second offence, the offender will serve any prison sentence that is imposed, in full, without parole. For the third offence, the judge will have no discretion whatsoever. The judge will be required to impose the maximum sentence, with no parole, regardless of any extenuating circumstances. What, I ask then, is the point of having an independent judiciary if judges do not get to make independent judgments? We have to trust judges. We have to give them discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe also have to ask what the bill will do in terms of the discretion that it provides to the police, and the pressures that it may place on the police. For example, the bill removes all judicial discretion at the third strike and severely limits it at strike two, but the police, on the other hand, will have much greater discretion. Under this legislation, the police could, for example, lay a charge of aggravated injury against an offender, which is a \u201Cthree strikes\u201D offence, but then plea-bargain with the offender and reduce the charge to aggravated assault, which is not a \u201Cthree strikes\u201D offence. They could do that on the condition that the offender pleaded guilty to the lesser charge. So the police discretion to prevent something getting into a court of law is greater than the discretion that judges have once the matter reaches the courts. How can that be fair? How can that be consistent with an open, transparent, and fair judicial system? It simply cannot be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill potentially leads to punishments not fitting the crime. Under this bill it is no longer just about the most serious offenders, as the Government claims, because some of the qualifying offences can cover conduct ranging from serious to relatively minor. This bill could lead to situations where the punishment does not fit the crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt potentially reduces the incentives or ability to gain guilty pleas from those who have committed an offence. Studies in the United States have found that the rate of guilty pleas decreased after the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D law came into force, because there was no incentive to plead guilty, and defendants hoped that juries would find them not guilty when they discovered what the penalty would be. That is the other challenge to the judicial system and to those who serve on a jury. Will a jury find somebody guilty if its members know that the consequence of doing so is that the person may well never, ever be released from jail? So we put more pressure on the judiciary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt places more pressure on victims of domestic violence, because they may be less likely to report abuse if it is more likely to result in a lengthy term for the abuser. That is something we should think very long and hard about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, tremendous pressure is placed on those who work in the prisons. If prisoners are never to be released, where is the incentive for them to behave appropriately in prison and make any effort whatsoever to reform their ways? If they know that they will go to prison if they get caught for a crime, it will create more of an incentive for them to go further with that crime. Someone on a third strike who does something wrong may think that he or she could commit another crime\u2014maybe kill the person who saw the crime being committed\u2014knowing that he or she will go to prison anyway. What is the incentive for that offender not to do that? There is no incentive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe rhetoric on this issue is easy. The complexities are so much more difficult. We need to step back from the raw emotion of the law and order debate and consider what will work. We need to step back and consider the drivers of crime. We need to look at drug-dependency, victimisation within the home, family violence, and so on. Those are the things we should be looking at. This is a punitive bill, and it will not make our communities safer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002213613d5269d74c059adec6ee90330336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213613d5269d74c059adec6ee90330336\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to speak in this debate on the second reading of the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill. Normally I like to listen to the speeches of the member who has just resumed his seat, Chris Hipkins, but I am rather disappointed with his speech today. He started off by talking with hollow rhetoric. Let me tell members what has been hollow. The speeches from the Labour Opposition have been rather hollow, because none of the speakers were part of the select committee process in the Law and Order Committee. Where were the members who sat through the select committee process on this bill? If members had been at the select committee, they would know that 94 percent of the submitters supported this bill. So the hollow rhetoric has come from the Labour Party\u2014let me start by saying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ELabour members are very loud in opposing this bill now that they are in Opposition, but I wonder what Labour\u2019s stance on violent crime really is. I wonder about its voters, and whether they know about its stance on violent crime. It seems that in the 9 long years that Labour was in Government, it did absolutely nothing about violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220843dde0e37c4398a84968d5261f732d\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa30c773a3234b54a296959ecc259e4d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if Labour had done something about it, the statistics would show that. It did nothing, and we are now trying to fix that problem. I think this bill is wonderful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ELots of people have spoken on this bill, and as I am the last speaker it does not give me a lot of things to talk about. But let me put a couple of points to the House. This New Zealand legislation is a vast improvement on the USA model, which people keep on saying they do not like. This bill confines itself to crimes against the person. In the USA, the legislation applies to all crimes, including shoplifting, but in New Zealand it is about crimes against the person. This bill will not capture low-level offending. It is about serious crimes and serious criminals. The Commissioner of Police, or the commissioner\u2019s delegate, will make the decision to implement or trigger the \u201Cthree strikes\u201D. So the commissioner will act as a gatekeeper. This is high-level gatekeeping, unlike that in the USA version, where the gatekeeping was done at street level. In New Zealand, the judicial warning is fair and reasonable. This is not the case in the USA legislation. This legislation will have the effect of taking criminals off the streets without creating a huge increase in the prison population, as it did in the USA. We are talking about 50 or so extra beds in 5 years\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EEveryone in the sector, including the most liberal person, accepts that there are some criminals who should never get out of prison, and this legislation will ensure that. To those people who speak in support of preventive detention, I can say this legislation complements, and does not replace, the sentence of preventive detention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, 94 percent of the submitters supported this bill. Many of them wanted to redress the disparity between the rights of offenders and those of victims. Keeping the public safe is one of the most fundamental obligations of any Government. This Government is focused on, and committed to, taking the tough steps needed in order to tackle violent crime and make families safer in their homes and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI also remind members that earlier an Opposition member, I think it was Lianne Dalziel, began her speech by calling a criminal a \u201Cgentleman\u201D. A criminal, regardless of his horrid background, does not deserve the honour of being called a gentleman, as criminals are far from gentle. To me, a gentleman is someone like you, Mr Deputy Speaker, not a criminal. Criminals do not deserve to be called gentlemen, but doing that shows how delusional Labour is about violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EPersonally I support any legislation that effects a change that means we are tougher on crime and tougher on criminals. Although we will probably never have a crime-free society, this bill reassures me that violent offenders will think twice before deciding to become recidivist offenders, and that when they do become recidivist offenders, they will be dealt with by a law that will not tolerate belligerent thugs who commit violent crimes over and over again. \u201CThree strikes\u201D and they are out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022644a999fd4f940beaedf039d05ffdcee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Law and Order Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a81d5de0e93e4eb48db430b118e963e7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f771a492d6b242b5b959fd7e1334932a\u0022\u003ELocal Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002209d368c965784683a6ad0640fdae0b27\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab21082ddf4849078b315f555d737dfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab21082ddf4849078b315f555d737dfd\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I intend to move at the appropriate time that this bill be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee. Local government delivers services vital to the lives of all New Zealanders. For many years, ratepayers have expressed concern about rate increases that have well outstripped inflation. The previous Government responded to those concerns by setting up a ministerial inquiry, the Local Government Rates Inquiry, and then ignoring its recommendations. This Government will not be following up its recommendations, either. That is because the objective of the inquiry was to \u201Cprovide recommendations to the Government for enhancing rating and other funding mechanisms for local authorities\u201D. The inquiry was not permitted to address the real problem, which is a failure by councils to control their spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EUnlike in many countries, New Zealand local government enjoys a high degree of autonomy, and locally sourced funding from rates. The main restraint on local government activity in New Zealand is the exercise of local democracy: the control of council activity by ratepayers and electors. That control needs to be strengthened. When I was appointed the Minister of Local Government, I said that I considered myself the \u201CMinister for Ratepayers\u201D. This bill is a major step forward in fulfilling the commitment I made to make councils more accountable to their ratepayers. It requires that each council, first, have particular regard to the contribution that the core services specified in the bill make to their communities; second, develop a financial strategy containing quantified limits on council rates and debt, and quantified targets for returns on council investments; and, third, produce a pre-election report to encourage and inform debate at the time of local elections. The bill also removes unnecessary procedural requirements that delay local authority decisions and add to local government bureaucracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMany of those changes have been made specifically at the request of the local government sector. The question of what the core services are that councils should deliver has generated a lot of debate. The bill lists a number of local government core services. They are services that are widely acknowledged to be at the heart of local government\u2019s role in New Zealand. Services such as water supply, sewage disposal, and roading are essential to the quality of life in our communities, as are services like libraries, parks, and community halls. There is also a core local government responsibility to protect the community from natural hazards and disasters, such as flooding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Local Government Act 2002 already states that local government has a role to exercise the regulatory duties required by other statutes. That is why regulatory functions such as those contained in the Resource Management Act and the Building Act have not been listed as core services. It remains equally important that councils carry out those functions with proper consideration for the effect they have on their communities. The bill does not prevent councils from engaging in services outside those listed. However, it gives councils a clear indication, first, that they need to do core services well before they engage in other services, and, second, that they need to get a proper mandate from their community for these services, rather than giving away to the demands of small, but often vocal, pressure groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt may surprise members that we need to legislate to require councils to produce a financial strategy. Some councils have set themselves clear, long-term limits on rate increases and debt levels, but many\u2014indeed, most\u2014have not. The fact that councils set rates each year provides a looser budget constraint on councils than applies to central government, where increases in tax rates are rare and subject to intense public scrutiny. Requiring councils to consult on a financial strategy with quantified targets for rates and debt levels will encourage councils to debate with their ratepayers more carefully the trade-offs between additional expenditure and the effect on rates and debt. It is important that ratepayers can understand the financial information that is presented to them by councils and can easily compare the financial statements of their council with those of other councils. The bill, therefore, provides for greater standardisation in financial reporting by councils. For example, officials have identified three substantially different ways in which councils report their rates income in annual plans and reports. That means that ratepayers cannot even compare something as basic as rates income amongst councils. The bill provides for regulations to be made to ensure consistency in financial reporting amongst councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe bill also requires councils to report separately on the major infrastructure services they provide. They are the most expensive of the core services that councils provide, and concern the major part of councils\u2019 capital expenditure budgets. To allow ratepayers to compare fully councils\u2019 performance on these essential services, the bill also provides for a standard non-financial performance reporting system to be developed for those services. The bill provides for an additional funding statement to be included in council reports. That statement will be more meaningful to ratepayers than present financial reports. This package of measures, plus additional other minor enhancements to financial reporting, fulfil the commitment to implement plain-English financial reporting for ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI will expand a little on the issue of council investment in companies. Many councils own companies of one sort or another. For example, much of New Zealand\u2019s port sector is council-owned. I am concerned that in some cases councils are not managing those investments well, and they are not being transparent to their ratepayers about the returns they are getting from those investments. The House has recently had to deal with the governance of Environment Canterbury. Members may not be aware that that council owned a company called Target Pest Enterprises, which is reported to have made a profit only once in its 8 years of existence. The company went into receivership in May 2007, owing creditors\u2014many of them just ordinary small businesses\u2014millions of dollars. That is one example of a council making an unwise business investment, and there are many more. This bill requires councils to set clear targets for returns on investments. Councils will be required periodically to review the expected returns from those investments against the inherent risks of being involved in business ventures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe third major initiative of this bill is the introduction of the pre-election report. There has been concern about the declining voter turn-out in local elections for some time. Simply exhorting people to vote seems unlikely to change that trend. The pre-election report is intended to draw together some key information about the past performance of the incumbent council and the future plans it has for its community. That will enable voters to scrutinise the performance of existing councillors more closely. It will also provide a factual basis against which candidates can state their position on future council plans, allowing electors to then vote for candidates whose preferences reflect their own. The pre-election report will be prepared by council officials; it will not be a ratepayer-funded platform for promoting incumbent councillors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere is one area that has been of concern to some local authorities, and that is the cost of auditing long-term plans. I gave careful consideration to that, and the advice I received was that there was limited scope to address it, other than to remove the requirement altogether\u2014and I was not prepared to do that. Ratepayers are entitled to the assurance that the plan put before them is soundly based. The bill does remove a significant amount of descriptive and operational material from long-term plans. That will greatly reduce the number of occasions on which local authorities have to pay audit fees for minor amendments to their previous plans. That will reduce audit costs. The bill also merges the present community outcomes planning process with the long-term planning process. I cannot see the sense of having councils run two planning processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill removes a number of impediments to the local government sector using the private sector to deliver local government services. As I said at the beginning of my speech, local government in New Zealand enjoys a high degree of autonomy from central government. That is a quality that I want to see maintained. To maintain that autonomy requires a high degree of transparency and accountability. That is achieved in this bill. I thank members for their time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f61718c1f47a4e56b01e9ac570a8b752\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f61718c1f47a4e56b01e9ac570a8b752\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I must say from the outset that I was a little disappointed that the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill did not deal with some things. The Hon Rodney Hide promised people that they would have lower rates, but he has been a member of the House for quite a while and he has not delivered. I think that really disturbs people, because they were looking forward to change. Of course we have people like Owen Pringle and Peter Goldsmith from the Papakura District Council who are putting rates up by 11 percent or more this year, whereas someone in a nearby council, Daniel Newman of Manukau City Council, tells me that that council\u2019s rates are going up by around 3.8 percent. So people were looking for some consistency, but did not get it in this bill. I think that is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is very easy for members of an Opposition to go around the countryside and say their party would make rates cheaper, but perhaps this bill deals with one thing that worries very many people. They are worried that the bill provides that water-owned facilities could be leased out for up to 35 years. When I was a mayor I contracted out a lot of things, and we kept the rates down, but I say that 35 years is too far into the future. All those people in Grey Power will be 100 before they get a vote again on water services, if a council adopts that provision in this bill. I say that 35 years is a long time, and young people who are now 30 will be pensioners before they get another say. So 11 or 12 elections could go by before people get another say on this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThat is what is wrong with this bill, and it builds on what has been happening around the country. Environment Canterbury has been skittled. Perhaps it may have deserved to be skittled\u2014but for 3\u00BD years? It should be for the period up to the next election, if it is a problem that is so easy to sort out. Then we had the royal commission come up with its master plan for Auckland. Did that go to the public of Auckland for a referendum, like everyone thought it would? No, it did not. We see that happen again with this bill. People will find out that their water facilities could be set aside from public scrutiny for 35 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ESome people say that that is privatisation; I say it is the closest thing one gets to privatisation without selling things. I thought Rodney Hide may have been better spending his time working out who owns water, rather than trying to flog off something. They have to make sure that in Auckland, as in the rest of New Zealand, they take the people with them; they do not get in the ACT-National bulldozer and trample over the rights of ordinary New Zealanders\u2014and that is what has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI am a reasonably fair person, and I can go on to say that some things in the bill are reasonably good. When we have a clause that calls for a pre-election report, prepared by the chief executive of a council, to say how the finances are, without lobbying for certain councillors, that is fair. It is well overdue, and it is good, but although we may find something good in a bill we must have a look at the overall picture. This bill cannot be seen in isolation. The House has dealt with three bills concerning Auckland governance\u2014two of them have been passed. One of them was passed entirely under urgency. It did not have a select committee process, and of course lots and lots of amendments were put forward by the Opposition to highlight how democracy was being ridden roughshod over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis bill has elements of that in it. It also builds on what is happening in Auckland, where 75 to 80 percent of the council business will be put in council-controlled organisations. The Minister, in his speech, talked about a company owned by Environment Canterbury that went bust. When we have council-controlled organisations that are not open to public scrutiny, as a council is, we have a very dangerous position. That is what worries many people in the Opposition. It worries many people in Grey Power. It worries people who are sole income earners on a fixed allowance. These people would like to know where their money goes. I agree that it is great to have this report done before an election. I imagine the report will be only as good as the chief executive. In most cases chief executives are extremely competent people who will do the job well, but one or two probably will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI have to say that when we look at the bill, we see that we will have all sorts of core business\u2014that is what it will all be about. Last year Rodney Hide went around talking about core business. He talked about it so much that his mother had to remind him that libraries are a core business. He had not thought of that. This is one of the problems. I think there needs to be a balance between where Labour went, where councils were able to move into areas where they saw need, and what is happening here: core business. People see things such as having water supplied to their house, having their rubbish picked up at the gate, and having roads repaired, as core business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think this bill is a wee bit too narrow in that respect. I also think that it is very difficult to write these things into law. When things are written into law we have to take the public with us. I do not think that is happening here. You see, when we have councils that are so different, from the top of the North Island down to Stewart Island and out in the Chathams, there are things that are very, very different. New section 11A states: \u201Ca local authority must have particular regard to \u2026 (a) network infrastructure: (b) public transport services: (c) solid waste collection and disposal: (d) avoidance or mitigation of natural hazards:\u201D\u2014we would not argue about any of these things\u2014and \u201C(e) libraries, museums, reserves, recreation facilities, and other community infrastructure.\u201D But is that the whole total? I suggest that it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI imagine that many people will make submissions, because there is no real talk in here about the social needs of communities. There has to be far more awareness of the social needs of ordinary families living in ordinary communities. Although those communities may be vastly different in different parts of the country, they need the ability to move into those areas themselves, rather than being dictated to by the National-ACT coalition. I have to say that its record in local government is abysmal. I thought we were going to go somewhere, but we have not been taken to the promised land; we have been taken to the execution chamber. That is what has happened. This Government has forgotten that ordinary New Zealanders value their democracy, and democracy is slowly but surely being snuffed out by John Key and Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022763c5c9d3a46403e997fb687aac69274\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022763c5c9d3a46403e997fb687aac69274\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I quite like George Hawkins, the member who has just resumed his seat\u2014I think he is not a bad guy\u2014but I say to him that that was a very sad, disappointing speech. I expected at least something positive out of it, but, unfortunately, it was not a great contribution. But, of course, we have come to expect that from this Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI start by saying that I am delighted to stand here to support the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. When I was appointed as the Associate Minister of Local Government, which I am very proud to be, I thought it would be an interesting experience to work with Rodney Hide as the Minister of Local Government, and I have to say that it has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265c1b7545773445fba7f960ad7147227\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what you said to me last night, John.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f6de2f29b94627971c97cc9f61cf1b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member that I am going to say exactly the same words that I said last night, but, fortunately, I was not talking to him last night. It has been fantastic working with Rodney Hide as the Minister of Local Government. He is a guy who will listen, he is a guy who makes decisions, and he is a guy who is prepared to take things on board. I congratulate the Minister on bringing this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231627553b28f468fbf77d20de68b8f42\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough, John.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6698cdea794eee974e28ecc33b421a\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it needs to be said. It needs to be said, and I want to say it because I am the guy who worked with Rodney Hide. I want to say that I really respect Rodney, and I thank him for the work he has done on this bill. I thank him very much for making this contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI turn to the bill. George Hawkins said that there was anticipation that Rodney Hide and the Government would actually reduce rates. Well, this bill is a start, and it is where we can expect to take cost out of local government. In that regard, it is exactly what local government and the ratepayers in this country have been asking about. I give members an example of one of the things the bill will do\u2014the member who just resumed his seat actually spoke about this and was complimentary about it\u2014and that is the pre-election report that is to be done by the chief executive for the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe local body elections are coming up in Northland, of course. A statement was made by one of the mayors that his rate increase would be less than the rate of inflation\u2014about 3 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77e020e46f14d7ea0731f2e96b66313\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Which mayor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1138aefcc0f47eeb70029001fe6e494\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That was the Mayor of the Far North District Council. It turned out that his statement was not the best of them. The Mayor of Whangarei District Council announced that he would be able to do better, and that his ratepayers could expect an increase of about 2 percent. Not to be outdone, the Mayor of the Kaipara District Council said that he would have a 0 percent increase. This is all well and good, but the problem is, of course, that none of them have told their ratepayers about their infrastructure deficit. None of them have actually disclosed to their ratepayers what challenges are ahead. The likes of Whangarei, particularly, has some serious infrastructure issues to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt is not about just the economics of the council; it is about the infrastructure and about what people can expect ahead of them. The pre-election report will contain a declaration about, or an exposure of, the infrastructure, and will actually lay it on the table as to the status and the present position of the council, and then ask candidates, whether they be for mayors or councillors, what they will do to address these issues. I have to say that that will be an amazing step forward for local government and ratepayers in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208500b032ee34ebfb7dce17d65c8c4c2\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: And Labour opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238fb6fd4a3f846ee949e932f70226f47\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Labour actually complimented us on putting that in. It is the one thing that it actually got right. It is the only thing, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe bill takes away a whole lot of the issues around consultation, and the Minister has already spoken about some of the areas where we are making some improvements. But I say to the Minister and to the Local Government and Environment Committee that, personally, I do not think the bill goes far enough in that regard. I think we can improve on other areas in regard to the demands that we make of local government, and what we ask them to go and consult their people on. I ask the select committee members that as they go through the submissions they pay particular attention to the issue of the cost of consultation, and whether we can improve the bill further. It already makes some improvements and reduces cost in that regard. I think there is a great opportunity for us to make even more savings, and to put fewer costs and difficulties on to ratepayers, as we move forward through the select committee process. There are some great opportunities in this bill for the select committee to report back to Parliament on ways in which we can make the bill even stronger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI will finish by saying that the issue of core services was raised in regard to allowing private enterprise to be involved in supplying services to councils for a period of up to 35 years. I think that it was a bit rich of the previous speaker, George Hawkins, to criticise that, because he did that in the local authority in which he was involved. He made huge improvements, to his credit and to the credit of his council, in that regard by introducing the private sector into the delivery of local government. I think, nevertheless, that it is a bit rich for him now to stand up and criticise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second thing he complained about, or criticised, was the issue of core services. It seemed to me from the speech the member made that he had not actually read the bill. The bill states that local authorities and their residents are expected to decide what the core services are in their local authority. Those services may be different in the Far North from those in Invercargill, but the local authority has to deliver those services first on behalf of the people. The services may be libraries, they may be a whole host of things down in Invercargill, or they could be something quite different in some other area. But the point that is made\u2014and this is what the bill says\u2014is we expect the leaders of the local authorities to focus first on the core services within their districts, before they do things that may be demanded but that are not considered to be core. Again, that allows democracy to prevail. It allows the local flavour of the ratepayers to be reflected. It also allows people to understand what costs will be imposed on them when those decisions are made. They will have an understanding of what those costs will be. All that will improve local government in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI support this bill entirely. As I say, I think there is still room for us to make further improvements. I hope that, as we go through the process, the select committee will come back and report to the Minister and me, and to Parliament, that there are further opportunities we can take to make local government better in this country. Let it be said that it is a great step forward for local government and for the ratepayers of this country today to have this bill before this House. It means that at last we have a Government that is serious about local government. We have a Minister who is prepared to listen and to represent the views of local government, which is to his credit and to the credit of this Government. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022355260da9052441c91c3f0baa5dd9724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022355260da9052441c91c3f0baa5dd9724\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak on the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill, and to follow on from the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, who, effectively, is the Minister of Local Government. He is the man who was brought in to rescue the Government from the mess that was created by the Minister in charge of this bill, in terms of the Auckland super-city amendments. I will comment in particular on the parts of this bill that relate to what, effectively, is the privatisation of water services. The provision in this bill is that schemes can be operated for 35 years under the Build, Own, Operate, and Transfer (BOOT) process. It is a Clayton\u2019s privatisation because if we calculate what 35 years is, we know that it is 11\u00BD terms of Parliament. It means that people aged 30 now will be in retirement age before they once again get a say on who should be running their water schemes, or on who should be looking after their interests. What MP in this House has served 11\u00BD terms? The amount of time is 35 years. It is an increase from 15 years, which is the current provision for those who wish to operate BOOT schemes. It is privatisation in drag. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI can recall in a past life in this House that Sir Roger Douglas, in his role in a Labour Government\u2014and I acknowledge that it was a Labour Government\u2014argued the case for State-owned enterprises. I for one supported the argument that we needed to see the efficiencies that State-owned enterprises would bring. But I did not appreciate\u2014and I was not a member of this Parliament at that time\u2014and I suspect that most of the Labour caucus did not appreciate, that there was an agenda behind the agenda, which was to take State-owned enterprises into privatisation. I believe that we are seeing exactly the same with this process. I think that some members of the National caucus will be supporting this bill on the basis that it will deliver some efficiencies in water delivery, but I tell them to look very closely at it. Behind it we are seeing a move towards the privatisation of water services. Three and a half decades is, in many people\u2019s terms, a lifetime. It is certainly a generation, and it is too long a period to entrust water services to private enterprise. I will come to some points about why we cannot trust it for that length of time shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that there are good people in the water industry who are in support of the idea that 35 years under BOOT schemes is a good time frame to allow schemes to be built and operated, and to have returns made. The reason I am mostly suspicious about this provision is that a month ago in this House we saw the disembowelling of Environment Canterbury over issues of water. That was at the core of what happened in this Parliament, when, in 30 hours flat, we saw an elected body, a democratic body, put out of office. There was an agenda behind that in relation to water, because the Prime Minister\u2019s statement to Parliament in February this year said that he wanted to see new water schemes and new irrigation schemes in place in Canterbury next year. There is no way on God\u2019s earth that that can be accompanied by new and much-required environmental tools that will allow water to be delivered in a way that does not add further to the detriment of water quality in Canterbury. It is already in such a state that it is not safe to swim in our lowland streams, let alone to drink the water. That is why I have this suspicion about this bill and the time frames of 35 years for BOOT schemes. Just a month ago in this House we saw what happened to Environment Canterbury and the very clear agenda behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI was very pleased on Friday night to see and speak at a rally in Canterbury about those issues, when 400 people gathered to make their voices heard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cad60c141e4b76a97159e47da1fa11\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: What was your rally\u2019s name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dc2bb656784fde8aab173bc499c3f7\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: Four hundred people gathered at very short notice to make their concerns known, but it was galling to see just around the corner the gloating going on at a National Party fundraiser as people celebrated the demolition of democracy in Canterbury. Since the \u201CEnvironment Canterbury Disembowelling Act\u201D, we have heard the Minister of Agriculture issue a very clear warning to other regional councils to look after farmers with water or else. There was a very explicit warning to other regional councils that they are to deliver what this Government wants in respect of water to farmers. I want to make it very clear that I support irrigation in my province of Canterbury, and I want to see the greening of the plains, but it must be done in a way that does not add further to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342dac0281294d029cf87916a6957d6a\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the evidence of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd74b86a4b024872834d636bd4d886c0\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite is from an electorate that has no safe lowland streams to swim in. If she wants to take her kids down to a river, she will see the diseases that they are likely to risk getting. She cannot take her dog and let it drink from the rivers of Canterbury, because of the water quality. The member for Rangitata is doing nothing to improve river water quality\u2014nothing. There is no way the Government can put this in place in the time frame it has allocated for new projects in Canterbury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIn the House today we heard the Minister for the Environment\u2019s announcements about water metering. I put this question to him: will it mean that those who have surplus water, once their water meter is calculating their flows, will be able to trade that for windfall profits? He would not answer that question because that is the trade-off for irrigators. They will have to pay $400 a year for the monitoring of the water metering, but the pay-off will be that they can trade the water. They will be able to sell it for an uncapped price, and that, I say, is reprehensible. Water is a common good; it belongs to all New Zealanders. It falls from the skies. It does not belong to any person simply because he or she has a deep pipe down into the earth or can suck it out of a river. Water is a common good that belongs to every New Zealander, and it is at the heart of this legislation that we are debating today. I acknowledge that there is a case for water metering for farmers who are using millions, sometimes billions, of litres of water, but there is no case, whatsoever, for farmers to gain windfall profits. I think that that was the softener for the water meter announcements of last weekend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI will comment further on the 35-year term. There is no Government responsibility attached to the quality of water delivered, and some members last night might have heard comments on Television One from the Minister of Health and me about the issue of drinking water safety. Currently, one in six New Zealanders drink water that cannot be deemed safe according to World Health Organization minimum standards. Sometimes the water is measured but does not meet the standard. The Minister cannot give any assurance on that. In fact, he is sitting on $80 million of funding that was put aside by the Labour Government to help small communities to improve their water quality. In terms of those issues, the responsibilities still rest with the councils. They are not being transferred to those who operate the BOOT schemes; they are still being held by the councils. They will be responsible, not the operators of the BOOT system and not the Government, as I read the scheme, and that is a failure in terms of water quality. I say that there must be some change, in terms of regulatory regime and of getting water quality right, if we are to have any improvement in water quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI note the article in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald from Margaret Devlin, a very distinguished woman. She is the former chair of Water UK and the managing director of South East Water in Britain. She comments that New Zealand lacks overall national water regulation rules. Regulation, as she acknowledges, can play an important and very positive role; it is not simply a negative. When we are dealing with something as important as water, this bill should be accompanied by some sense that water will be regulated, in terms of quality, and there is nothing in this bill that mentions what will happen in respect of pricing. In Britain there is Ofwat, the Office of Water Services, which sets clear performance parameters, there is an environment agency that works on environmental protection, and there are drinking-water inspectors who ensure that drinking water is up to standard. The Ministry of Health has virtually no staff in charge of drinking-water standards. A tender had to be advertised recently for contractors to come in and provide the services that the Ministry of Health once had so that we could see the drinking-water standards of the World Health Organization monitored and put into effect in this country. We had to go out for tender for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes that there should be a move from 15 to 35 years\u201435 years\u2014in which a BOOT scheme can be operated, without any reference to the quality of the water, without any requirement that they meet regulations, and without any responsibility, yet the councils and the ratepayers will have no say for 11\u00BD terms of this Parliament, which is 35 years. This represents a generation of passing it across to somebody else who bears no responsibility for the quality of the water being delivered. There is no regulation to accompany this. It is simply a process of effective privatisation. New Zealanders will rue the day that this bill was introduced. It will do nothing to improve water quality, and there are huge question marks about what it will deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002274accc1de420400ebff8b78461d018db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274accc1de420400ebff8b78461d018db\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is a terrible bill, a dreadful bill, that the Green Party will not be supporting. I sincerely hope that people in New Zealand will not be fooled by the soothing words of Mr John Carter and Mr Hide that the bill is all about reducing rates, taking the cost out of local government, and focusing on core services. Actually, this bill is all about further implementation of ACT\u2019s agenda to reduce spending in local government by as much as possible, to corporatise and privatise as much of local government as possible, and to shrink democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs Roger Kerr and others have revealed, and I think Mr Hide has also referred to it, the underlying premise of the bill is based on what happened in a grand experiment in Colorado. A tax and expenditure limit was set in Colorado, the aim of which was to reduce spending and of course make us all resent paying rates or taxes. It also has the effect of driving down the resources of local government, to the point where it becomes effectively bankrupt. What happened? This year, as a result of this grand experiment in Colorado, which this bill is trying to implement, the Colorado budget will have a shortfall of US$28 million, or 10 percent of its whole budget, brought about by the strangulating effects of these tax and expenditure limits. One-third of Colorado Springs\u2019 24,000 street lights were turned off earlier this year, to save around US$1 million of expenditure. Residents can adopt a street light if they pay US$100 a year. The taxi drivers are trying to do the work of the police force, because it is so overstretched by cuts. Park budgets have been slashed by 25 percent. Grass is mown monthly, not weekly. Buses were sold, and services no longer operate on evenings and in the weekends, and the fire and police budgets lost US$5.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIs this what we want in New Zealand? Do we want millions of street lights around New Zealand turned off? Do we want there to be no buses at the weekends or in the evenings? Do we want our taxi drivers acting as our police force? This, I tell members, is what will happen if we continue to be fooled by Rodney Hide and the ACT agenda. There is no question that local government is the new battleground for the agenda of the Government and Rodney Hide to corporatise and privatise as many assets as possible. There are many other concerns about this bill, such as its definition of core services. I notice that the environment is not considered a core service. So what about issues like using toxic substances, such as methyl bromide? I notice recreational facilities are a core service, but what about parks and reserves? What about the Waitakere Ranges, etc? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to focus on, and there are many in this bill that I could focus on, is water privatisation. This bill transfers management and decision-making control over water to private corporations, and in so doing it transforms the provision of water services from a public good to a source of private profit. It promotes water as a commodity to be traded, rather than as something that is essential to human life, to health and well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOnce a council has entered into one of these public-private partnerships for 35 years, the bottom line, the driving influence, on all decisions will be the return to the shareholder, not the public\u2019s best interests. The water privatisation industry is a trillion-dollar industry, aided and abetted by the World Bank and the IMF. Basically, they are going around the world, seeking new markets for their water privatisation agenda, and of course they are turning their eyes to New Zealand and the Minister of Local Government, and to the National Government, which of course will come to the party. Water privatisation gives multinational corporations control over the necessities of life, and of course they are focused on returning money to their shareholders and running the assets into the ground. Why would they not? They are focused on profits. Many of them, of course, are run by private equity companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI will give an example from the United Kingdom, where Margaret Thatcher was one of the first to introduce widespread water privatisation and these kinds of long-term arrangements. The result was excessive pricing. There was a sharp increase in the cost of water, over 50 percent in the first 4 years; soaring profits for the shareholders, the water companies\u2014142 percent in the first 8 years\u2014while the customers were having continual price rises; and huge underinvestment. The companies cut their investment programmes, and used the savings to maintain and increase their dividends, just like what happened to our railways under Michael Fay and Mr Richwhite. Huge salaries, bonuses, and fees were paid to the directors of the water companies. People felt so resentful of the companies, which were perceived as greedy, and they were not prepared to make the sacrifices to conserve water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFollowing privatisation, there was a sharp rise in the number of households having their water supply disconnected or cut off, which of course endangered their health. Continuous access to water is an absolute basis of health and well-being. In fact, one of the criticisms was that water companies were failing to notify all these cut-offs to local authorities. There were no incentives under the privatisation to improve efficiency or to reduce leakages. Far from conserving water, the people in England were so resentful of the companies they did not bother to conserve water, nor did the companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a8df4a1fde497da14039cf5757b2fd\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I was explaining what an unmitigated disaster water privatisation had been in England, and I was describing the 35-year privatisation contracts, such as the one we will have here in New Zealand. The Daily Mail, a staunch supporter of the Conservative Party, had a commentary with the headline \u201CThe Great Water Robbery\u201D. It stated: \u201CIn recent weeks the penny has been dropping that something has gone horrendously wrong with the privatisation of Britain\u2019s water industry \u2026 the water industry has become the biggest rip-off in Britain. Water bills, both to households and industry, have soared. And the directors and shareholders of Britain\u2019s top ten water companies have been able to use their position as monopoly suppliers to pull off the greatest act of licensed robbery in our history.\u201D That was from the Daily Mail, and that is what we are opening ourselves up to in New Zealand with this Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAnother point I make is that the 35-year contracts entered into are completely secret. The contracts are commercially sensitive and are in confidence, so people do not know what is in them. Some of the contracts have a guaranteed rate of return. In Latin America, one of the big companies said that it would withdraw from its investments unless the return on capital was 13 percent. It withdrew from most of Latin America because it could not get its guaranteed return. There have been huge revolts against the high prices charged by private operators right throughout Latin America. Domestic water prices went up by 150 percent in Bolivia following privatisation. That led to huge demonstrations, and so on and so forth. What happens when these companies go bankrupt in the course of their 35-year contract? Something that we should all be thinking about is the number of bankruptcies. Who takes over then? Is it the bank? I ask what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIn Wellington there is, I think, a 25-year contract with regard to the wastewater sewage. This contract has changed three times in the past decade. It has gone from one company, it has passed to another subsidiary, and then it has passed to another. What are the implications for all this? Over 35 years circumstances can change, but we are locked into these contracts. Everyone knows that water will be the oil of the 21st century. We will have water wars. That is why all these corporate water companies are scouring the world trying to get hold of publicly owned water companies such as those that we have built up over generations in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00224e4bd5d1b4bf4933be0f47fb398c66ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e4bd5d1b4bf4933be0f47fb398c66ce\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E The Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill has only just been introduced, but we got a heads-up on it from Mr Hide. In his intemperate opposition to the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Bill last month, he condemned the notion that the Waikato River could be considered a tupuna with the mana, the spiritual authority and power, and the mauri, the life force, of the Waikato-Tainui. He stated: \u201CI do not happen to believe it. I think it is hocus-pocus. But what we are doing is legislating this hocus-pocus,\u201D. Then he said: \u201CI oppose it as the Minister of Local Government, I oppose it as the leader of the ACT Party, and I oppose it as a New Zealander.\u201D Well, I have to say to Mr Hide that as a member of Parliament for a M\u0101ori electorate, as a member of the M\u0101ori Party, and as a M\u0101ori New Zealander, I say that the statements that he is making have to jeopardise the credibility of a Government that is working with Waikato-Tainui to settle this matter. They suggest that either Mr Hide is skating on thin ice or the Government is being dragged around by the nose by a party that is struggling to achieve more than the margin of error in the polls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the relationship between iwi and the Crown requires decision makers to think about M\u0101ori values, practices, and interests in both the Local Government Act 2002 and the Resource Management Act, including the need to recognise and provide for the relationship of M\u0101ori and their culture and traditions with their ancestral lands, water, sites, w\u0101hi tapu, and other taonga, having particular regard to kaitiakitanga and taking into account the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI want to establish the status of the Treaty relationship right up front, because the bill we are debating today will be of huge importance to M\u0101ori. Although the bill aims to amend the Local Government Act 2002 to improve transparency, accountability, and financial management, in reality it is about the control and provision of water services and water infrastructure. That brings me back to the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Bill. In that bill, we are told: \u201CThe Waikato River is a single indivisible living thing that flows from Te Taheke Hukahuka o Te Puuaha o Waikato \u2026 and includes its waters, banks and beds (and all minerals under them) and its streams, waterways, tributaries, lakes, aquatic fisheries, vegetation, flood plains, wetlands, islands, springs, water column, airspace, and substratum as well as its metaphysical being.\u201D That is specific, concrete terminology, spelling out in black and white the relationship that Waikato-Tainui have with their river; it is hardly hocus-pocus. So when the Minister of Local Government comes to the question of water services and water infrastructure in the Waikato rohe, he will find himself already offside with at least half of the authority charged with caring for the river, and for the water that flows its length and breadth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis amendment bill aims to remove unnecessary barriers to water infrastructure development by reducing restrictions on private sector involvement in the delivery of water services. It is the first step towards privatising water in Aotearoa. This bill also aims to remove unnecessary consultation on matters of interest. The effect of this provision is that local bodies will no longer have to consider the views of affected people, M\u0101ori or otherwise. Consultation will go out of the window, even though the Local Government Act 2002 requires councils to ensure that M\u0101ori are involved in local body decision-making processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe know that there are some good councils out there that engage with M\u0101ori in positive ways, but we also know of councils that are deliberately lagging behind. Although the Act emphasises the participation and involvement of M\u0101ori, it does not direct councils to any particular groups representing M\u0101ori interests. We sometimes find that councils deal with their obligations to consult by talking to a M\u0101ori staff member rather than to tangata whenua, effectively sidestepping their commitment to mana whenua. This is in direct opposition to M\u0101ori Party policy, which states: \u201CIssues around water must include mana whenua, including water rights and privatisation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill also takes away the process of consultation between local bodies and the community on water issues, reducing those who pay for and use the water to having no say whatsoever over the way in which their most precious resource will be managed. In fact, this bill will put private contractors in charge of water services without any accountability for the supply of those services. It reminds me of a comment I saw in a recent article called \u201CWaiting in the wings: Privatisation of your water\u201D, by Warwick Taylor of the Wellington Residents\u2019 Coalition. He stated: \u201CWater is protected under law, but they are seeking to change that. Why not just do away with democracy altogether if it\u2019s cheaper.\u201D Given the thrust of this bill, I shudder to think what this Government\u2019s answer might be to that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill is another step down a slippery slope. The memory of democracy is being used as a waterslide to ease the way for the privatisation of critical resources. We oppose the loss of democracy by the M\u0101ori community and by the wider community that we saw in the Environment Canterbury legislation last month. We oppose the unaccountability of private contractors. We challenge the right of this Government or any Government to deny M\u0101ori their Treaty rights to water, and we will do whatever is necessary to establish a process that is truly Treaty-based, that recognises the value of local government input, and that restores the mana of water all around the country to the status expressed in the Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Bill. This bill threatens at a very fundamental level many of the principles that the M\u0101ori Party believes in, and we oppose it on those grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022384a25beade24a5d9fbc210f5475d9bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022384a25beade24a5d9fbc210f5475d9bd\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. The Local Government Act 2002 is the cornerstone of local government and is fundamental to all decisions made by local authorities. As chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee I have regularly paid significant attention to this Act. [Interruption] Members opposite should listen. As such, it became clear to me that although the Local Government Act 2002, which is the previous Government\u2019s legislation, is good legislation, albeit a little bit untidy in areas, there are aspects that need improving and modernising. This bill does both of those things very well. It will meet the needs and requirements of not only the ratepayers but the general public and all those who interface with councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe significant purpose of this bill is to improve transparency, accountability, and financial management in local government. The explanatory note of the bill states: \u201CThe underlying policy for the Bill is informed by the following principles: that local authorities should operate within a defined fiscal envelope:\u201D. I am sure that all of us who represent our electorates are very aware of the concern amongst constituents that local authorities should operate within a defined fiscal envelope. The last thing constituents want is profligate local authorities. The public expectation is that local authorities must be rigorous with their finances. This is one of the reasons why we are introducing a financial strategy to the long-term plan, to help local authorities and their communities debate and resolve the key financial and service delivery trade-offs that local authorities are obliged to make in the transaction of their programmes. The second principle is \u201Cthat local authorities should focus on core activities:\u201D, and the third principle is \u201Cthat local authority decision-making should be clear, transparent, and accountable.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide ratepayers and residents with better information about council costs, rates, and activities, and enable them to understand and influence planning and decision-making processes. The electorate of West Coast - Tasman has four councils, with relatively small ratepayer bases. This legislation will be particularly significant to those areas and those councils, to enable ratepayers and residents to understand and influence planning and decision-making processes. This will be achieved through introducing pre-election reports to stimulate debate during council elections, and through achieving plain English financial reporting, so that ratepayers can understand what they are paying for and how. I spoke this afternoon to the Buller District Council, one of the councils in the West Coast - Tasman electorate, and the councillors say that they are very conscious of the need for a plain English financial statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EAt an operational level, this bill will simplify decision-making processes. This will be achieved by removing unnecessary auditing, and that will go down very well. This legislation will remove unnecessary consultation. We have heard previous speakers talk about the complex situation that has resulted from the incredibly tough demands on consultation. Levelling the playing field will enable the private sector to better deliver local authority services. This will improve councils\u2019 flexibility to choose effective and efficient delivery methods for water and other services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI have already heard the concerns about water expressed by a number of speakers in this first reading debate, but I am sure they will be reassured once they give the legislation full consideration. The horror stories that are already emerging will not be sustained. This bill will remove unnecessary barriers to water infrastructure development. I say to those who are not familiar with the area that water is something we are blessed with on the West Coast. The rainfall in the area where I live is 3 metres a year, and further down the valley it is 6 metres a year, but we still need potable water and a reticulated water supply. This bill will enable local authorities to enter into contracts for the supply of services for a period of up to 35 years, and to delegate aspects of water services management to contractors and lease water assets from the private sector. But it will not allow local authorities to walk away from the responsibility associated with all those things. I have heard criticism already\u2014I have taken note of it and I look forward to it being discussed further at the select committee\u2014concerning the length of time for those contracts, but when we consider the amount of capital involved in providing water services, we need a fair amount of time to recoup the expenses of putting it all together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EGood local government is essential for our communities, our economy, and our environment. The National Government values having an honest and open working relationship with the local government sector, and recognises that there cannot be a one-size-fits-all approach to local government. This amendment bill represents significant progress towards better local government, and towards easier and more effective participation by ratepayers and residents in the activities and decisions of local councils. The bill strengthens ratepayers\u2019 control of council activity, making councils more accountable to their constituents, and gives ratepayers clearer and better quality information on the work of local councils. It provides them with the tools required to influence local government decisions. Ratepayers will be pleased that the bill contains measures such as a financial strategy, with limits on rates and debt, to ensure council costs, rates, and activities are better controlled. The changes are coherent and necessary, and are a great improvement to the Local Government Act 2002. They are welcome changes. I am very happy to speak in support of them. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226da20f158d844d2e857b61c87342b55b\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203c5c073d8f14f2c8e31c86970fab4f2\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002237c0ef16d273456aa7ddf16f8bd24254\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237c0ef16d273456aa7ddf16f8bd24254\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Following discussions with the Business Committee, I seek leave for members\u2019 notice of motion No. 7, in the name of Phil Twyford, concerning nuclear disarmament to be set down as members\u2019 order of the day No. 4 on Wednesday, 5 May 2010, despite Standing Order 96, and for there to be a debate of seven speeches of up to 5 minutes each on the question that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272070b771deb41319573b96905c9889e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? It appears not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227bf1314ba17846a98ce9575cdb6fc531\u0022\u003ELocal Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269497b67fde9481b8751ee9c6c8b65aa\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000464\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00228e7756a7ccfe4f599bd997e0c615c819\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e7756a7ccfe4f599bd997e0c615c819\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In the lead-up to the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill coming to the House tonight, New Zealand was treated to the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, parading up and down the country all last year with his transparency, accountability, and financial management agenda. It was a cut-and-paste job from the Business Roundtable\u2019s policy on local government. We saw a number of proposals for the rates-capping of local government, for mandatory referenda\u2014Sue Kedgley very well set out that mandatory referenda have brought Colorado\u2019s state Government to its knees\u2014and for Rodney Hide\u2019s agenda for core services. I do not know whether this agenda provoked more horror or more mirth in local government. I am glad to say that not much of Rodney Hide\u2019s nutty agenda from last year has made it through into this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut this bill does contain some substance: the provisions around encouraging and promoting public-private partnerships and Build, Own, Operate, and Transfer (BOOT) schemes in the municipal water sector. It is significant that Rodney Hide devoted only half a sentence in the final paragraph of his speech to the issue of water privatisation. If he thinks that New Zealanders are so thick that they will not even notice what the real agenda is here, he has another think coming. The Government is playing silly semantic games. The explanatory note of the bill says this measure is not about privatisation. The Prime Minister got up in the House last week and said it was not privatisation. Well, this bill allows the private ownership of New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure for periods of up to 35 years. That is privatisation. If it is not privatisation, I want to know how long these contracts would have to be before this Government considered them to be privatisation. Would 50 years be long enough? Would 100 years be long enough? It is privatisation, whichever way one slices it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe argument seems to be that it is not privatisation because it is not the sale of a pre-existing public asset. Well, times have changed since Margaret Thatcher and Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble sold off all the assets in the UK and in New Zealand in the 1980s. The public-private partnership is now the dominant mode of privatisation all over the world. Throughout the world, public-private partnerships are the dominant mode. That is how it is done. It is widely referred to in all the international literature as privatisation; the World Bank refers to it as privatisation. Why do members on that side of the House not front up, have the courage of their convictions, and admit to the New Zealand public that this bill allows the privatisation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d5c6a027f34f9b995b164777991565\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you would agree that the member made a very unparliamentary statement in the midst of his speech. It is a serious point, and I think he should withdraw it. There is no need to apologise, but he should withdraw the statement. It is not appropriate to accuse others of not having the courage of their convictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59be76d98ef470184650b637cd9c5bc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a fair point; I was just trying to identify the part that the member was referring to. All members are honourable members, and the member will withdraw that statement and desist from making further inferences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228816728733504e7cbf18343daad22d9d\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. The point I was trying to make was that the members on that side of the House lack intestinal fortitude when it comes to being up front with the New Zealand public about their policies. They decided that the issue of privatisation was off limits for this term of Government, but they are not willing to be up front with New Zealanders and acknowledge that this bill kicks away the democratic safeguards against the privatisation of our water system. They are playing silly games. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will talk about public-private partnerships specifically. Labour is not against the concept of public-private partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d319e3a0b97f42f59ea236fd199f1f04\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh really!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e6baa3d8b9f47d9a0b91ba6adfb4864\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are not. We not against public-private partnerships per se. However, we believe that public-private partnerships should be carefully considered and subject to the most careful scrutiny in order to determine where the costs, benefits, and risks are distributed. There is a view on the Government side of the House that public-private partnerships are some kind of panacea, and that they deliver free money for public infrastructure. Nothing could be further from the truth. One way or another, either the State or user charges pay for the cost of public infrastructure. Public-private partnerships do not deliver free money; they are not a panacea. They can, however, distribute the cost of infrastructure to particular users, and they can postpone that capital expenditure and put the burden on future generations. So let us be honest and let us be clear about that with regard to public-private partnerships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour is against public-private partnerships in relation to some particular sectors: prisons, schools, and water. Along with 80 percent of the New Zealand public, we believe that having free access to water is a human right. It is a public good, and it is the job of the State to hold that public good in trust, to ensure that all New Zealanders get equal access to it and it is managed in the public interest. Does the Minister of Local Government think New Zealanders are so thick that they will not realise that this bill is designed to encourage and promote the privatisation of our water system? Thirty-five years of private ownership is privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is a kind of mythology that public-private partnerships are some sort of golden egg that will deliver cheaper and better infrastructure. I look forward to this matter coming before the Local Government and Environment Committee, because there is a very high pile of case studies of failed public-private partnerships in the water sector from all over the world. One example is Paris, which is the home of water privatisation\u2014public-private partnerships. Paris is the home of Veolia Water, which is the parent company of United Water, and last year Paris brought its entire municipal water system back into public ownership because of decades of failure and cost overruns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will read for the record a cautionary tale from the Tampa Bay area in Florida, which has a population of 2.4 million people. It is a similar size to Auckland, for example. In 1999 a 30-year contract for $129 million was let to a company to build, operate, and manage a water treatment plant. At the end of 2007 the project was 4 years behind schedule and nearly $80 million over the original budget. The local authority then sued the original engineering companies for faulty design. In 2004 it awarded a $29 million contract to another company to try to fix all the problems. The project was 5 years late, 16 percent under capacity, and 44 percent over budget when it was finally up and running. That is a cautionary tale, and there are plenty more where that came from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhen this sordid bill comes to the select committee, I hope that New Zealanders will have the chance to scrutinise it properly and make submissions. People will be very interested to measure up the provisions in this bill against the international experience of water privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe bill is obviously not all about water privatisation, and I make it very clear to this House that Labour is not against streamlining the Local Government Act. We are not against the transparency provisions, and we are not against achieving efficiencies. The provisions in this bill around core services, community consultation being cut back, integrating the community outcomes planning process, inserting financial strategies, and imposing a requirement on councils to issue a pre-election financial report are all worth considering, on the face of it. I am sure they will be subject to adequate scrutiny at the select committee. But all of those points will raise questions in the minds of people who are concerned about the state of our democracy. On the question of core services, for example, there is a blatant omission of social development or community well-being, and there is nothing about economic development. Rodney Hide was told time and time again last year that those matters are important to New Zealanders and important to our local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe question that I have, when looking at this bill, is whether the bill would pass the test of the cost-benefit analysis provided for in the Minister\u2019s own Regulatory Improvement Bill. We have had advice only in the last couple of days that this bill will result in a net increase in compliance costs for councils. I think it will be very interesting to see that issue teased out in the select committee. New Zealanders will be concerned about the proposals to cut back the requirement for community consultation. Perhaps there are too many requirements of that sort in the principal Act. But given the track record of this Government and this Minister in cutting back the democratic process and showing a disregard for people\u2019s democratic rights in local government, these proposals will ring alarm bells. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour will vote against this bill. It is repugnant; the water privatisation provisions are repugnant. They are unwelcome, and they are the latest piece in the jigsaw of this Government\u2019s gutting of the public domain in relation to local government. This is the latest instalment. We have seen the corporatisation of Auckland local government, the shutting down of Environment Canterbury, and the scaling back of our democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4dc09f03d5a4758b821c855a4c09f04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4dc09f03d5a4758b821c855a4c09f04\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to rise to speak in support of the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. As my very able chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee, Mr Auchinvole, said: \u201CGood local government is essential for our communities, our economy, and our environment.\u201D As Mr Auchinvole very ably led the Local Government and Environment Committee, I am very proud to follow him in supporting this local government amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe bill, of course, amends the 2002 principal Act, and the three principles that members will hear again in this speech will be \u201Cimproving transparency\u201D, \u201Caccountability\u201D, and \u201Cfinancial management\u201D. The previous Labour speaker, Phil Twyford, did say that Labour was supportive of those three principles, so I am very pleased about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe National Government values an honest and open working relationship with the local government sector. We recognise that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to local government. We understand that communities up and down New Zealand are different; even within an electorate they are different. I will demonstrate this for a moment by talking about the Taup\u014D electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the case of the Waipa District Council, we see that this year it is hosting the World Rowing Championships at Lake Karapiro in November. This event will be the biggest sporting event in New Zealand since the 1990 Commonwealth Games. The council will be significantly involved. Last week the South Waikato District Council signed a $3.4 million contract for the New Zealand Cycle Trail project in respect of the Waikato River Trail. It will ensure that the last 41 kilometres of the cycleway is completed in time for the World Rowing Championships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe Taup\u014D District Council\u2014a very different council again\u2014has recently been awarded accreditation as an International Safe Community. The World Health Organisation has examined Taup\u014D and its commitment to safer communities. Taup\u014D is known as a wonderful tourist destination and the accreditation will boost our image. The Government, the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, understand that there cannot be a one-size-fits-all approach to local government. We keep the \u201Clocal\u201D in local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI remind members that this bill is about transparency, accountability, and financial management. The Local Government and Environment Committee worked incredibly well together last year on simplifying and streamlining legislation in the reform of the Resource Management Act. It is fair to say that we work well together at simplifying and streamlining things, and this bill is another example of that. I know that we will be working together to reduce costs and waste in local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill works on two different levels. First, on a strategic level, the bill aims to change the way that local authorities set their direction and the way this can be influenced and assessed by their communities. There are several provisions in the bill. I will not cover all of them, and I defiantly will not dedicate 90 percent of this speech to issues to do with water. Some members of the Opposition seem to have forgotten the main issue of strategic changes, which this bill will reform. One change that I think is really important is the introduction of a pre-election report, which will encourage and inform the debate during the elections. It means that voters will have better information on which they can base their decisions. It will introduce a financial strategy to the long-term council community plan, and it will help local communities and authorities debate and resolve the key financial and service delivery trade-offs that they have to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAt the second level are the operational reforms. The bill aims to simplify decision-making processes. A couple of these changes include the removal of unnecessary auditing. If members talk to local councillors up and down the country, they will find that that is an area of financial waste that they would rather do without. The bill will remove unnecessary auditing by taking a number of operational policies out of the long-term council community plan. It will also level the playing field to better enable the private sector to deliver local authority services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ELocal government is essential for our communities, our economy, and our environment. We on this side of the House recognise that there is not one size that will fit all. We recognise the differences in our councils up and down the country. I have given examples of three different councils in the Taup\u014D electorate and things that are important to them. This bill is about improving transparency, accountability, and financial management. Ultimately, it will make councils nationwide far more accountable for their actions. That is what ratepayers want, what local politicians want, and what the National Government wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4d1fbfd885a4098b084e048802962b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4d1fbfd885a4098b084e048802962b7\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill in its first reading. I want to reflect a little bit on where we have come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMembers will recall that on 17 November 2008 Martin Johnston of the New Zealand Herald wrote an article\u2014members may have read it, I do not know\u2014that said: \u201CACT has a radical agenda for local government, but party leader Rodney Hide is keeping his lips sealed.\u201D The article went on to say: \u201CACT wants councils to privatise their commercial activities and to supply water on a \u2018fully commercial basis\u2019, but Mr Hide would not identify yesterday which activities should be prioritised or discuss these policies at all.\u201D Later in that same month Brian Rudman of the New Zealand Herald wrote another article, entitled: \u201CHide and local government a scary mix\u201D. I quote: \u201CThere are many in local government scratching their heads after the appointment of Act leader Rodney Hide as Minister of Local Government and wondering what on earth they did to upset Prime Minister John Key so much.\u201D The article continued: \u201CTop of the scorched earth local government policy list Mr Hide was elected on was that \u2018local government will be required to shed its commercial activity, thereby eliminating the need to separate regulatory and commercial functions between local and regional councils\u2019.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMembers will also be aware that Mr Hide, as the Minister of Local Government, rammed through the implementation of the Auckland super-city. They will recall that the Government said that it would consult widely with the people of Auckland once the Royal Commission On Auckland Governance had released its report. That was never done. Members will also recall that earlier this year Mr Hide, with the support of this Government, removed the 14 elected councillors of Environment Canterbury. That regional council will not have the ability to replace those elected officials with new elected officials in this year\u2019s local body elections. They are being replaced by commissioners who have been politically appointed by the Minister of Local Government and the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI thought it would be useful to give some background as to what is happening with regard to local government and what is yet to occur, with the final Auckland super-city bill going through the House, and, now, with this Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. I support what my colleagues have said: we in Labour are opposing this bill. There are a variety of reasons why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELet me begin by saying that in quickly going through the bill I saw a range of areas of concern that I wanted to bring to the attention of the House. I am hopeful that the people of Auckland, the people of the Canterbury area, and everyone who is passionate about local government, will take the time to make submissions on this bill. New section 11A in clause 5 makes reference to \u201Ccore services\u201D. The bill states: \u201Ca local authority must have particular regard to the contribution that the following core services make to its communities:\u201D, then lists \u201Cnetwork infrastructure:\u201D, \u201Cpublic transport services:\u201D, \u201Csolid waste collection and disposal:\u201D, \u201Cthe avoidance or mitigation of natural hazards:\u201D, and other community infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EPeople who are working in business improvement districts will be asking\u2014I know that those in Manukau will be asking\u2014whether economic development is a core service of councils. Is the business of business improvement associations a core service? Will this bill specifically put a circle round, or define the limitations of, what is regarded as a core service? I am saying this because, currently, all local government bodies and communities are able to participate in identifying what local core services are through the annual plan process; that is when communities come forward to their councils and identify what their needs are and what is important to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EFor example, only last month many people throughout New Zealand\u2014all of us, I suspect\u2014celebrated Anzac Day. The events on that day are generally organised by community boards, and are funded by councils. Our local event in Mangere Bridge is organised by the good Rev. Les Dixon of the Anglican Church there. He estimates that the council puts in about $10,000 to pay for that local event. People are now asking whether Anzac Day celebrations and other events that local government bodies currently support are core services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EFrom talking with members of the local government fraternity, I have a suspicion that we could see a situation where local government bodies use lawyers to try to define what a core service is. I do not believe that this bill will achieve what it is designed to do, which is to reduce compliance costs and to reduce the rates burden on ratepayers, if councillors need to consult and to seek the advice of legal advisers to identify what is a core service and what is not a core service, and to determine which current community activities will be part of local government services in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI come to community consultation, and to clause 8. Several amendments in this Government bill seem to me to take away the opportunity currently available to members of the public to provide input into the long-term council community plan. If on the one hand the Government is saying that it wants transparency and wants accountability, why on earth is it removing the particular part providing for wider community participation and for communities to hold local government bodies to account? The removal of participation by communities is explicit in that particular part of the bill. I do not know why the Government is doing that. I hope people will be consulted and will be able to raise their concerns. The risk is that, under clause 8, community considerations will not be given a full and fair hearing at key stages of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI come to the area that the Minister of Local Government did not spend a lot of time on. It must be considered the most significant part of the bill. It is about partnerships, the private sector, and making it easier for the private sector to take control of an asset and to take control of an income stream that comes from the water industry. The Minister spent little time on it, yet it is probably the most significant part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMy colleague George Hawkins said that if these contracts will last for 35 years, ratepayers who are now aged 65 will not get a say in what happens to those contracts until they are 100. Ratepayers now aged 35 or 40 will not have a say for the next 35 years. They could be dead at 70, if they are Pacific or M\u0101ori. They will not have a say in how the private sector will run the water industry, under that particular clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt is a weird situation to have a bill that aims to reduce compliance costs, but on the other hand adds other compliance costs. On the one hand the Government says it wants more transparency, but on the other hand it tries to keep a lot of the decision making that will be made by the private sector away from the community, so that the community is not participating and the community is not involved. There are major concerns about this bill, and I hope the public of New Zealand listening to this debate will take the opportunity to make submissions on this bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad984a727d041f99697dc562315825a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad984a727d041f99697dc562315825a\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill. This bill is about delivering to New Zealanders greater transparency and accountability in local government. As MPs we often have constituents coming to us when they have issues in getting basic information from councils and when they think issues are very complex, so I am very pleased to be able to speak on this bill, because I think we will be able to do something in this Parliament to help those constituents get greater access to information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIf I could sum up this bill, I would say that this is about greater freedom of information for residents and ratepayers. Recent analysis by the Department of Internal Affairs shows that the cumulative increase in rates per head in the next 10 years will be 49 percent. We know that many ratepayers are concerned about increasing rates, so more and more New Zealanders want to know how their hard-earned money is being spent. We on this side of the House stand up for the right of those New Zealanders to have access to that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThat is why I find it so difficult to understand members opposite and their position on this bill. They are opposed not only to New Zealanders having greater access to information and accountability on how their rates are being spent, but also to giving communities more power over that information, which could see better use of that money. So when members come to this House and talk about helping disadvantaged people, and greater transparency, it is really hard to believe them. When it comes to the crunch with a bill about transparency and delivering greater use of people\u2019s rates, what do they do? They vote against it. It is really difficult to believe those members of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EAs we sat through the select committee process on the legislation that changed Auckland governance, so many people came and said they could not get even basic access to information about how their rates were being spent. It is really difficult to understand the position of members opposite on this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other point I will talk about is public debt. It is forecast to increase by 97 percent, and expenses are forecast to rise by 91 percent. We on this side of the House think it is unacceptable to have a situation where local government cannot produce transparent information about how people\u2019s rates are being spent. Let us talk about some of the mechanisms that are within this legislation to try to achieve this greater transparency and accountability for the New Zealand taxpayer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe first step in this bill is about a principle that says local government should operate within a fiscal envelope. As I have said before, we all know of examples of local authorities that have racked up accumulated debt in a way that has not been transparent to the New Zealand taxpayer. The other key thing, which came out during the select committee hearing of submissions on the Auckland governance legislation, is that within long-term council community plans some of these documents are hundreds of pages long. Do we on this side of the House really expect people to wade through those documents to understand how their little local project is being dealt with? Actually, that is not possible for a lot of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House support the fact that the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Rodney Hide, and this Government are interested in making these plans simpler and clearer for people to understand. What we are trying to do is give more individual power to New Zealanders through clear and simple information about how their money is being spent. The bill also includes provisions on financial disclosures, which have to be in plain English. This ensures that simple information is available to members of our community, be they local board members within Auckland, or constituents who are able to decipher the gibberish that is being thrown up by some of these councils. I think it is important to acknowledge that this information could also be more available to some community newspapers. I have had some of them come to me and say they cannot get basic information about projects within their areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other key aspect of the bill, which is very important, and I find it very interesting that members opposite do not support it, is the concept of pre-election reports. That is about saying to local body politicians that they must go into an election with greater transparent information about what the council\u2019s financial position and commitments are. How can members opposite not support that basic level of transparency? No longer will I accept those members going around public meetings in Auckland talking about transparency and accountability, when they are voting against this bill. Under this legislation the chief executive of a local authority will have to prepare a report before each triennial election, providing information to promote public discussion on the issues facing that local authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe next aspect of the bill that is very important is the concept of a financial strategy. The purpose of this document is to help facilitate local authorities\u2019 proposals for funding and expenditure by making transparent the overall effects of funding and expenditure proposals on local authority services, rates, debts, and investments. Again, this was a core principle that came through a number of submissions from people within the community who said \u201CLook, we just want to know what our council is doing, what the debt is, and what the basic financial position is.\u201D I find it very difficult to understand how members opposite cannot support those provisions. I also believe that the council consultation processes are unnecessarily onerous and complex, so I am really pleased that the bill will help achieve less complex consultation processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say that this National Government is delivering legislation that is about greater transparency and accountability for the New Zealand taxpayer. I am proud to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d204346e1ccd41dab94b27379f7d6926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d204346e1ccd41dab94b27379f7d6926\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E The speech made by Nikki Kaye, the member who has just resumed her seat, was a fascinating insight into the way she approaches issues. There are 53 clauses in this bill, and Nikki Kaye chose to focus her speech on the elements that everybody agrees on\u2014but in a strident tone of anger at members on the other side of the House; how dare we agree with the Government about those clauses\u2014whilst proceeding to completely ignore the clauses that have the greatest degree of controversy, which, obviously, are the clauses that deal with water privatisation. Nikki Kaye\u2019s approach was quite extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to talk mainly about the water privatisation issue and to make absolutely clear that on this side of the House we, of course, support improved transparency and putting out good financial statements, but we cannot support a further erosion of democratic rights in the local government sector. Time and time again in the 18 months I have been in this House we have seen National bring forward measures that diminish our democracy at a local level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESome of the first speeches I made in this House were about the early Auckland governance reforms, which took away some fundamental elements of democracy from the royal commission\u2019s recommendations. We have seen ongoing programmes in Auckland in relation to the council-controlled organisations where people\u2019s ability to have a say has been removed. The ability of people to have a say at the most basic level of democracy has been removed, and I think that is an appalling thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen there was the situation with Environment Canterbury. That was a remarkable move. Not only did the process get rid of an elected council but also it cancelled an election that would have enabled over 350,000 Cantabrians to elect their regional council. Around the world there are names for countries that cancel elections. \u201CBanana republic\u201D is one of those names. Yet in this House the National Government blithely cancelled an election. It cancelled part of the democratic process in this country. Nick Smith actually told the Timaru Herald that one of the reasons the National Government did that was that he was worried about the outcome of the election. He was worried about the outcome of the election so he cancelled it! He got rid of it. That is the kind of approach to local democracy that we have seen consistently from this National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, today, we have the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill, which, despite Nikki Kaye\u2019s protestations, is not really about transparency. It is about freeing up the privatisation of water\u2014the ability to let a 35-year contract for private water services. In 35 years Mr Hide will be 89. My good friend Phil Twyford, whose birthday is today, will be 82 in 35 years. It will be that long before they will be able to have a say, and we know that Mr Twyford will be a very grumpy 82-year-old if he has not been able to have a say in respect of the way water services are changed in Auckland. But that is what this bill will do. It will push out the ability of people to have a say about the way in which a core part of our infrastructure is delivered for 35 years, and that is privatisation no matter what language is put around it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe know what the ACT Party\u2019s agenda is here. We know that Mr Hide would get rid of anything that would prevent the privatisation of water, and National is now complicit in the de facto privatisation of water services for 35 years. I want to refer to a particular part of this bill that I think shows how this anti-democratic agenda is taking place at a local level. This bill repeals section 88 of the Local Government Act 2002. Currently, when a local authority wants to change the delivery of a service it is required to use the special consultative provisions of the Act. That means that when a major change is in place the council is obliged to go out and talk to people, but that provision is now gone. The 2002 Act recognised that the way a core service like water is delivered is pretty important and needed a special consultative process. That is gone with this bill. That important check and balance in the democratic process is gone with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHow much clearer can it be that the agenda of this bill is to reduce participation, reduce democratic rights, and put in place a process whereby privatisation can be bulldozed through for 35 years at a time? That is anti-democratic. It is against the core principles that New Zealanders hold dear. New Zealanders want to have a say in the way services are run, and they want to know that if they want to stand up for publicly run services, they can. That will go under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs Mr Twyford said earlier, Labour is not opposed to public-private partnerships in principle, but we need to take a careful approach. Public-private partnerships lock Governments into all kinds of things. They are the \u201CHotel California\u201D of Government arrangements\u2014\u201CYou can check out any time you like but you can never leave.\u201D If there is a debt, it will be with ratepayers forever. Ratepayers will not be able to get away from that debt; it will be with them forever. The experience internationally is that when things go wrong, ratepayers and taxpayers will have to pick up the debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPublic-private partnerships should be approached with caution, but this bill goes in exactly the opposite direction. It opens the floodgates. It puts at risk assets that have been built up by ratepayers for years and years, and it puts them in a basket so that they are up for grabs by the private sector and taken away from the democratic process. I think that is completely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESome other aspects of this bill need to be analysed closely by the select committee. What are services, and why are economic and social development not mentioned within core services? Those are important questions that the select committee needs to give its attention to. The bill also reduces community consultation processes. There is a useful debate to be had about where and when consultation best takes place, but it should not be an exercise in simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying that community consultation is not important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOf course members on this side of the House support the things that will make processes more streamlined and give more transparency in financial statements, but we will not support the taking away of democratic rights and the further erosion of local government and keeping decisions close to local people. We oppose the privatisation of water, and that is what this bill is designed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b4799a487fd4b12b0ecf46a60d578b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000523\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e369edf22a3d4bb18bcd34c343b634a7\u0022\u003EElectoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f64e57ce1c547bfa710777c1de78120\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022c90aad591b684d9eaa9eaf2881325529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c90aad591b684d9eaa9eaf2881325529\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Acting Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Electoral Legislation Committee, which has been established to consider this bill and the Electoral Referendum Bill. Electoral finance law is fundamental to New Zealand\u2019s democratic system. The regime must be impartial, fair, and transparent so that the people of New Zealand have confidence in our elections. I also add that as far as possible, electoral law should also be the product of cross-party consensus as this is the path most likely to lead to enduring solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAs part of this Government\u2019s pre-election platform, the Electoral Finance Act 2007 was repealed within our first 100 days in office. An interim regime was put in place and we began a consultative process. It started with a scope paper published in April, and this was followed by an issues paper released in May and a proposal document released in September. We also held public forums in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch. This bill is a result of that consultative process and it is the fourth bill in the Government\u2019s electoral reform programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAs the title suggests, the bill is divided into two primary areas: finance reform and advance voting. The primary purpose of this bill is to amend electoral finance law in areas where there is broad-based consensus for reform. This bill will provide certainty to electoral agencies, political parties, candidates, and the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt aims to improve the understanding and application of electoral law. To recognise the impact of new technology and media, the bill updates the definition of \u201Celection advertisement\u201D to cover advertising by all forms of media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe bill also sets up a regulatory regime for third-party promoters that emphasises transparency, rather than restrictions on the freedom of expression. It requires third-party promoters to register with the Electoral Commission if they spend, or intend to spend, over $12,000 on election advertising in the regulated campaign period. The bill does not include an expenditure limit for third-party promoters. The register of information on third-party promoters will ensure that the public know who is funding political campaigns. In addition to getting authorisation from candidates or political parties for positive advertising, all promoters will have to disclose their name and their residential or physical address on all types of election advertisements. Campaign spending limits for candidates and parties were last changed in 1995. Under this bill, they will be allowed to increase at the rate of inflation to ensure that they are not set at levels that have become unrealistic over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis bill clarifies how expenses can be apportioned where advertisements serve a dual purpose, such as advertisements for both a candidate and a political party. Although these expenses have historically been apportioned between the party and the candidate, the decision in the Peters v Clarkson case suggests that those expenses should count in whole against both the party and the candidate. This bill reinstates the historical position that advertising expenses are to be apportioned between candidates and parties based on each one\u2019s coverage in the particular ad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EMany aspects of the donations regime in the Electoral Finance Act have been retained. However, this bill improves the transparency of donations to political parties by adding two features. It introduces a new requirement for political parties and candidates to disclose in bands their total income from donations. It also includes an associated entity test to stop companies closely associated with each other from making separate donations to get around the disclosure requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to the regulated campaign period. We propose that the regulated campaign period be no longer than 3 months, rather than up to 11 months as under the Electoral Finance Act. The Minister of Justice signalled this change to the Speaker to ensure that amendments to the Parliamentary Service Act with regard to election advertising would be consistent with the Electoral Act. Following the Speaker\u2019s consultation with parliamentary parties, it was agreed that the regulated period should no longer apply retrospectively and is possible under the current law. This means that there needs to be a trigger for the regulated period where an election is called less than 3 months from polling date. Therefore, this bill provides that the regulated campaign period will now start 3 months before the last possible date of an election where an election has not been announced before that date, or 3 months prior to polling day where an election is announced more than 3 months prior to polling day, or from the date that the election is announced where it is announced less than 3 months from polling date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe Government is also using this bill as an opportunity to implement one of the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s recommendations from its inquiry into the 2008 general election with regard to advance voting. The committee asked the Government to consider removing the existing restrictions on advance voting and the requirement to complete a written declaration in advance. This bill amends the Electoral Act accordingly. I hope that this will remove a potential impediment to those who may consider casting their vote in advance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI thank the electoral agencies for their valuable advice, parliamentary parties and the public for their input, and submissions that were made during the development of this bill. Given the importance the Government has placed on consultation and consensus in the development of this bill, it has proceeded with only those reforms that have broad-based support. However, the select committee process is an opportunity for the public to persuade parties from across the House that there may be other areas where reform to our electoral finance laws is desirable, and I think we should approach those submissions with a very open mind. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac64f22c966945c9b6f3ee7769fee95f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac64f22c966945c9b6f3ee7769fee95f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will support the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill going to the Electoral Legislation Committee. I begin by acknowledging the Government for following a comparatively good consultation process. First of all, we had an issues paper, which was open to public submissions. Then we had a proposal document, which was open to public submissions. Throughout the process, there was consultation with parliamentary parties. I have a slight problem with what happened after that, although I think it was not as deliberate as perhaps the Acting Minister of Justice, Nathan Guy, may have suggested in his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI might as well deal with this now, because I think it is an issue that we will have to address at the select committee. I refer to the definition of \u201Cregulated period\u201D, because certainly no agreement was reached on the nature of how that would best be provided for in our law. We accept on our side of the House that National, when it was in Opposition, never agreed with taking the regulated period back to the beginning of the year. We accept that there was going to be change in that regard. We have stuck to a single-minded position on this, in that we are willing to make changes in that regard. The alternative that we put to all the consultative processes that we were engaged in was 1 May. The usefulness of 1 May was that it was sufficiently far through the year to enable people to be undertaking activities as they would do in the normal course of events, not knowing exactly the date of the election, but it was a date that would by all means assure that any spending after that date would be caught within a regulated period, regardless of when the election was called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that when we do not have a fixed date for a general election, it is better to have a set date at which the regulated period will begin if there has been no earlier calling of an election. That has been the position the Labour Opposition has taken all the way through. We have pulled back from our original position that it had to be for the entire year, and we put up 1 May as an alternative. That date sits very well with almost all of the elections that we have had, certainly in the time that I have been in Parliament. Almost all would have been picked up, apart from the one, I think, that was called in July 2002, which was called on a date that did not give a 3-month period of regulated activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI find regulatory impact statements very useful and interesting documents. I will read from the regulatory impact statement of the bill: \u201CThe regulated campaign period, during which political parties and constituency candidates are subject to campaign expenditure limits, currently runs from the date three months before the election date, until election day. The purpose of this period is to define the official campaign period, during which the expenditure controls imposed under the Electoral Act 1993 are imposed. Because New Zealand does not have a fixed election date,\u201D\u2014and I agree with this point\u2014\u201Cthe three month regulated campaign period can operate \u2018retrospectively\u2019. That is, where the Prime Minister announces that an election will take place in less than three months time, the regulated period effectively starts before the announcement took place. This creates compliance problems for constituency candidates, political parties, and the general public\u2014who effectively can be required to comply with rules that were not in force at the time their actions took place.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe problem with this definition of the problem is that it sets up a solution that was not resolved for consideration in this bill by the process that I described before. That is the single issue I have with how this has been handled. It was referred to the Parliamentary Service Commission as part of resolving the issues about the conflict that can arise between an electoral expense and a legitimate parliamentary expense, as applied by a member of Parliament. It was right and proper that that issue was referred to the Parliamentary Service Commission, where the parties are fully engaged in the process; it really was a very good process. The trouble was that this issue got tied up with the broader issue, and I think the Parliamentary Service Commission ended up unwittingly being part of the contribution to this bill when it thought it was no longer part of it. This bill leads the commission to the position where it has unwittingly ignored the consultative process that was going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI thought it might be a good idea to explain exactly what has happened. I am being very sincere in the concern that I am raising here, because I think the select committee can address this problem and resolve it. The statement that the Minister put out last week describing the bill that we are addressing tonight talked about several developments having occurred since the February announcement. The first statement that he made in that regard said: \u201CThe proposal to clarify the relationship between the Electoral Act 1993 and Parliamentary Service legislation will now be addressed in a stand-alone bill to amend the Parliamentary Service Act 2000.\u201D I think everyone who was engaged in that process within the Parliamentary Service Commission thought that that is where things now lay. Little did they know that, in fact, their engagement in this process went on from there: \u201CThe proposal for a three-month regulated period for election advertising has also been amended. Following consultation by the Speaker with all parliamentary parties,\u201D\u2014and that is a reference to the Parliamentary Service Commission; I checked with the Minister\u2019s office today because I was not quite sure what it meant\u2014\u201Cit was agreed that the regulated period could also be triggered where an election is called less than three months from polling day, to avoid retrospective application to prior spending.\u201D That may well be what people have taken from the discussion, but I can assure the House that that is not how people who participated in that decision understood it would be translated into the bill before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not think there is any subterfuge or any attempt to pull the wool over anyone\u2019s eyes. I honestly think that it is a genuine misunderstanding, and certainly a misunderstanding of the policy position that our party has had throughout this process. I believe that during the select committee process we can resolve the problem. I want to work through the nature of the problem so that everyone fully understands it; I have no time to talk about parallel campaigners, but I am sure my colleagues will pick up that serious matter. It is worth having this on record, because it is something we will have to address. The bill talks about a default day, meaning \u201Cthe day that is 3 months before the last possible polling day for the general election\u201D, and therefore we read those words for the words \u201Cdefault day\u201D. The bill states: \u201CIf before the close of the default day the Prime Minister gives public notice of the day that is to be polling day for the election, the regulated period\u2014(a) commences on the later of the following days: (i) the day after the date on which the Prime Minister gives that public notice: (ii) the day that is 3 months before polling day; and (b) ends with the close of the day before polling day.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe later date will always be 3 months before polling day, unless 3 months\u2019 notice of the general election is not given. Given that the Government decides the date of the general election, it gives the Government an unfair advantage. It can spend for an entire month, if not longer\u2014perhaps if it gave only 6 weeks\u2019 notice of the general election\u2014in the knowledge that none of that spending will be counted as part of the regulated period. That is the Opposition\u2019s issue with that provision. I know that this issue will be drawn on in our party submissions to the select committee. We have made it absolutely clear that we should avoid retrospectivity, but we should also minimise the risk of unregulated election spending occurring less than 3 months before an election. That is the position we have always had, and that is the position we wish to retain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c52217b8e28f40d58cb117681e67a242\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c52217b8e28f40d58cb117681e67a242\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to have a chance to take a call in the first reading of this very important legislation, the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill. I pick up on some of what the Acting Minister of Justice, Nathan Guy, discussed in his first reading speech, specifically around the fact that this, as electoral legislation, is the sort of legislation that needs, in my view and in the Minister\u2019s view, to proceed on the basis of a broad consensus. I talked a little bit about this in the debate around the MMP referendum. When we as a Parliament look at matters to do with the way we elect this very House, we are dealing with matters that are of the most serious constitutional significance. Although these bills can be passed on the strength of numbers, I think it is incumbent on us to make sure we tread carefully down this road and try to build cross-party consensus, which is likely to make the laws we pass not only respected but also enduring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIf there is any lesson that we can all learn from the Electoral Finance Act that was passed before the previous election, it is that\u2014that these are serious issues; they are not the sorts of issues on which we want to exploit a position of power, and we need to go back to some sort of broad consensus as far as we possibly can. Certainly, that has been the Government\u2019s approach to introducing this bill today. The point to remember here is that very soon after coming into Government following the 2008 election, National repealed the Electoral Finance Act. From memory, I think that that repeal was broadly supported in this House. I remember the Labour Opposition agreeing that we needed to re-look at that Act, and I think that it was wise of those members to concede their mistake on that point. Since that time, we have reverted to electoral law as this country had known it for the many, many years in building up to the passing of that Act. The discussion document and the issues paper that went out for public consultation, which this bill is the result of, started from electoral law before the Electoral Finance Act, and we said: \u201CLet us look to make changes to that only where there is a broad consensus of support for it.\u201D When we are looking through the provisions of the bill in front of the House tonight, it is important to look at it in that context\u2014that of starting from a stable position of electoral law that has served this country very well for a long period of time, and of saying that there are issues we need to look at but let us make changes only when we feel there is a broad consensus of support for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI will start off on the smallest of the issues dealt with by the bill, which is the one the Acting Minister finished on; that is, the advance voting provision. I was lucky enough to be involved in the Justice and Electoral Committee when it had its inquiry into the previous election and considered this issue. It is an interesting one, and perhaps one that the wider public has not taken on board as yet. The changes in this bill will enable a greater level of participation in our general elections, and I think that is something we all strive for. Our elections work best when there is a high level of engagement. If the matter is as simple as allowing voters to vote on a different day to election day, without having to go through a complex process of proving their entitlement and filling out declarations, then that is a simple enough thing that we in this House can and should do to encourage participation. That is a simple enough change to make and it is an important one to do, and I am certainly very pleased to support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe biggest part of the bill relates to the running of campaigns, campaign financing, the question of who can advertise, the matter of how much can be spent, the time we measure from, and those sorts of issues. Again, when we start the debate on these things, from my perspective the issues we have to look at are the sorts of issues that were brought sharply into focus during the 2008 election campaign. I think the biggest difficulty we all struggled with through that campaign was the lack of certainty and the lack of credibility of the very rules. There was a constant process of going to the Electoral Commission and to lawyers to try to find out what could be done, who could do what, what counted, and what did not. It got to the point when even if the Electoral Commission would tell us: \u201CLook, candidate X has breached the rules.\u201D, it would also say \u201CWe can\u2019t really do anything about it, because the rules are so unclear that no one really knows what\u2019s happening.\u201D We have to take from that the importance of being very, very clear, of having very certain rules, and of having a good workability between the rules we operate under as MPs\u2014when we spend money in our capacity as members of Parliament\u2014and the money we spend and the regulations we are under when we are campaigning. The waste of resources during that 2008 election campaign was a source of ongoing frustration to me, because the time and effort that should have been spent being out talking to the public was spent in trying to get our heads around exactly what those rules all meant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Lianne Dalziel, spoke at some length about the regulated period, and I agree with her that that is an important issue. I go back to the opening comment I made, which was that the 3-month regulated period is the period we had in this country for a long time leading up to the Electoral Finance Act. That is what we have gone back to as a starting point for these changes. On the issue of retrospectivity, which Ms Dalziel spoke about, I agree that that is a serious concern. By way of personal example, I mention to this House that I was selected as a candidate in May of 2008, yet all my expenditure from 1 January 2008\u2014a full 5 months before I was even chosen to be a candidate\u2014was regulated. That is a nonsense. How on earth can candidates be responsible for expenditure that they might have spent in that period that may have served to encourage the public to vote for them? That was the sort of crazy system we had. We have reverted back to a 3-month period, or to a period that is defined by the calling of the election, to ensure that everybody knows once we are into the regulated period. I think that that is really key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ETied in with that\u2014and it is important to tie it in\u2014is looking at the campaign expenditure limits for candidates. Under new section 205B, substituted in clause 8, we see that those expenditure limits, which have been set at $20,000 inclusive of GST since God played fullback for the Apostles, as they say, have now been changed to reflect a CPI adjustment. It goes back only as far as 2008, and the adjustment in the legislation, as printed, is not a big one. The important aspect of that is in new section 266A, inserted by clause 26, which this bill seeks to impose. It is the provision for annual Orders in Council to update those CPI linkages. So that is a beginning. It does not mean a big step forward in the campaign expenditure limits initially, but it finally puts in place some sort of mechanism to make sure that those limits keep pace with inflation over time. I think that that is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIn this bill we see addressed some important apportionment issues, as the Minister discussed, to make sure that there is clarity about how and where campaign expenditure is apportioned. We have kept from the current electoral finance regime the disclosure of donations and the regime around that. Added to it is the new requirement for political parties to disclose not only donations over a certain limit but also income they have received in bands below that limit. There will be a more complete picture of the funding of our political parties, and I think that that increase in transparency and the clearing up of that can be only a good thing. I am sure that as this bill goes through the select committee, we will see some interesting discussion on some of the issues within it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI will end where I began, which is simply to say that I think it is dangerous to charge ahead unless we can find a broad consensus for some of these issues. That is why reverting back to the stable electoral law that we have worked under for so long is a good starting point. I look forward to a good, enlightened, and educated debate on these matters in the select committee, because they are important. I am looking forward to the process and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002265009785b2574afa97d2292a7139bcf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265009785b2574afa97d2292a7139bcf9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I endorse Amy Adams\u2019 comments about the desirability of forging a consensus on these issues in relation to the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill, but I add this note of caution: in order to reach a consensus, we have to have compromise on all sides. It is all very well for the Government to say that it wants to reach a consensus, but if it withholds its approval of reasonable suggestions on the part of other parties, including the Labour Party, then it will not reach a consensus. Consensus can only be reached if there is give and take by all parties in relation to these issues; otherwise, one party can withhold consensus. We all know that realistically the prior status quo under electoral law had some failings, but in some instances those failings could have been to the advantage of the National Party. If that party defines consensus as a requirement for its agreement on everything, then it can prefer the status quo, effectively, even if the status quo is inadequate. I just caution a little against the pretence that that sort of consensus is the ultimate answer. Actually, reasonable compromise leading to consensus is what this Parliament should be aiming for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI mention what I think are the three most important principles in electoral law. They are the principle of equity, the principle of freedom of expression, and the principle of transparency. They are the three most important principles. There are other principles, like accountability, legitimacy, integrity, viability, clarity, and cost-effectiveness, which were referred to by the Royal Commission on the Electoral System in earlier years, but the three most crucial principles are equity, freedom of expression, and transparency. Equity, of course, is crucial, as the report of the royal commission said back then. It said that there was a particular importance in achieving fairness between political parties, because at elections voters were primarily choosing between alternative party Governments. There had to be fairness between parties, but that is not just fairness between sitting parties as represented in this Parliament. Election rules should not advantage one party over another; nor should they place inequitable barriers on the formation and entry of new parties into Parliament. That is one of the important principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe next principle is freedom of expression, and that principle requires that there should not be undue restrictions on the ability of citizens to freely express their views. Freedom of expression is very, very important. We made proposals around freedom of expression that left the media completely unconstrained\u2014and the media should be completely unconstrained\u2014but there have always been some constraints on political parties, and there should be. If we are to maintain a low-cost electoral system, such as we have in New Zealand, that implies there have to be some constraints on spending. Those constraints are a necessary restraint on freedom of expression. If we did not do that, we would have an electoral system like those in the United States, where people can essentially buy elections by outspending the other. We would get into a ratcheting-up of expenditure on both sides of the political debate. Increasingly, the only people who can meaningfully participate in election processes in countries with unconstrained expenditure are those with very deep pockets, and that is not democracy. A low-cost election system is appropriate and freedom of expression does not mean an unlimited right to spend in order to buy an election. That is why there are spending constraints on political parties. We have long had them in New Zealand and we should long continue to have them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third principle is that of transparency. Transparency only works if there is transparency around donations, and that is one of the areas where the Labour Party thought that we should go further than this bill does. We thought there should be even more transparency than is proposed in the bill. This is an area where we may be forced to compromise, but we think this bill should have gone further. We accept that we may have to compromise on that, but we cannot see why there should not be further transparency in respect of donations. At the last election, from memory, the Labour Party disclosed the source of about 15 percent of our donations and the National Party disclosed the source of less than 10 percent of its donations. Both parties spent over $2 million, yet we disclosed only 10 percent of our donations. That is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227845243e5e024204b48fb0739a1cfb7a\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: You wrote the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e71c14f00f4b1b8885287056d9891f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: This law does not improve it. The member says that Labour wrote the law. Well, that law did not go far enough in respect of transparency. There is nothing wrong with donating to political parties. It is a good thing to do. But public confidence in the democratic process requires that there be transparency as to donations, otherwise we can never escape the imputation that it is substantial donations that have caused the policy position, and that undermines public confidence in democracy. What we are trying to do here is to protect public confidence in democracy, because democracy is so important. The countries of the world that have the biggest problems do not have democracy, or they do not have transparent-enough democracy. Transparency is a really important principle. There ought to be more transparency in respect of donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis leads me to the issue of parallel campaigns. They are difficult. If we do not, in some way, have some regulation of parallel campaigns, we might as well have no regulation of political parties. We have theoretical limits of spending and some transparency of donations for political parties. If we did not have similar rules for people who are advocating for political causes outside of political parties, we might as well not have any rules for political parties, because it makes a nonsense of them. Through the process the Government ran, we proposed in our submission some transparency around third parties. We made it clear that the media should be absolutely unconstrained. Nothing in our submission affected the media. In respect of third parties, we said that they should not just have to register as being a third party, which is what this bill proposes, but also have transparency around their donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf people are out advocating for the Labour Party, the National Party, the Greens, or ACT\u2014whoever they are advocating for\u2014in effect, through their third-party campaign, it should be clear as to who their funders are so that we have transparency as to our election process. We did not have any limit on what third parties could spend. Again, that was a considerable compromise on the part of the Labour Party compared with our preferred position that there should be at least some limit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022756077bcaf6b429183d956e9a6d95386\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t a tiny limit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022babd3b5a2d244ffbbd1d3584e4e06cbb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was not a tiny limit, but maybe it was too low. We moved away from any threshold, but there should be disclosure. There should be transparency as to the source of the funding of campaigns if more than $100,000 is spent. That is what we said. That is a perfectly reasonable proposition on the part of the Labour Party, and for the National Government to say that it is doing this by consensus illustrates the fact that it can withhold a consensus and stick with the status quo where it thinks that is in its best interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI hope that the National Government is willing to look at this issue at the select committee\u2014I really hope so. I do not think we are doing a favour to New Zealand or a favour to democracy\u2014[Interruption] no, they have not. We are not maintaining public confidence in our election process if we do not deal with this important issue, which is the transparency of the campaigns run by third parties. The Royal Commission on the Electoral System concluded that limited spending by political parties, but not by parallel campaigns, was illogical. The royal commission found that; it is not the Labour Party being selfish in saying that. Labour is taking a principled approach, which was found by the royal commission. We hope that this is properly addressed through the select committee and that the Government is willing to compromise on it, as we have compromised and as we are compromising in so many other areas. If it does not, then the talk about consensual electoral law will be shown to be hollow words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf282c7490fa4a99830265b73c2978d3\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing consensual at all about the way you did it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d67d978d44044a69efcbca15148fc20\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is some fairness in that criticism. Labour has accepted that, but the same accusation will be made against the National Government if it does not follow a consensual route in respect of some of the issues that we are fairly raising and that were raised by the royal commission. National cannot have it both ways. It cannot say, on the one hand, that we did not follow a consensual process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00225292e546a19b4e34afd0f7461508f53e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225292e546a19b4e34afd0f7461508f53e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Aotearoa New Zealand prides itself on being a fair and equitable country. It is a country that we love and work very hard to protect. Our community often fails to engage with that protection, for a myriad of reasons. None the less, we continue, as a country, to strive for a better, fairer, and more prosperous nation, where everybody gets a fair go. We continue to strive for honest and open politics, and for good government that respects all people. The year 2007 saw a highly contentious, and quite radical in some respects, reform of New Zealand\u2019s electoral finance laws, the Electoral Finance Act. It was not\u2014and I have heard this being talked about tonight\u2014a process that was particularly well handled politically or in the debate that surrounded the reform. The Green Party supported the legislation then because it made a significant step towards fixing some of the glaring holes that the 2005 election campaign showed up. Those glaring holes were extremely serious. In my view, they showed how easily the democratic process in Aotearoa could be manipulated and distorted. Those holes showed very clearly that politics in Aotearoa was, and to some extent still is, very vulnerable to the excessive influence of wealthy players in the political realm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI do not need to tell the story. We have books, films, and a wide variety of writing that sets out that story. But I need to restate the problems, because the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill is designed to fix them, yet it fails. Amongst the problems was an initially secret $1 million intervention in the campaign by the Exclusive Brethren church. It campaigned for the National Party and against the Greens and Labour, without the spending falling within the National Party\u2019s election cap. Some argue that the electoral process worked fine then because the scam was eventually exposed, but it was not the electoral process that exposed the scam; it was the very hard work of Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons. It was only because of their skills and determination to get to the truth of the matter that the Exclusive Brethren\u2019s secret was exposed. Only Rod Donald\u2019s determination exposed the link between the Exclusive Brethren campaign and the National Party. The public have good cause to thank Jeanette Fitzsimons and Rod Donald for their efforts in shedding light on the ease with which our elections can be bought and sold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOther issues arose that showed glaring holes in our electoral law. In 2005 alone, the National Party received over $1.7 million in unidentified donations from secret trusts and Labour received over $300,000 in anonymous donations. National\u2019s board was aware of the identities of the donors, even though their identities were hidden from the public by the use of secretive trusts. And, of course, we had the $120,000 illegal broadcasting overspend by the National Party. No prosecutions arose from any of those matters. Aotearoa does not have a sufficiently robust regime to protect the democratic process from the threat posed by secretive wealthy political players. The 1986 Royal Commission on the Electoral System stated that it is not fair if some in the community can use their relative wealth to exercise disproportionate influence in determining who is to govern and what policies are to be pursued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will be opposing this legislation for this very important reason: there is no cap on the election spending by third parties in this bill. Under National\u2019s legislation, the Exclusive Brethren, or anyone else for that matter, can run an election campaign opposing a political party and can use an unlimited amount of money. Let us look at the political environment here in election campaigns to understand why this is so important. Political parties have a spending cap of around $2 million in an election campaign. Political parties have a broadcasting allocation for use on TV and radio, and they cannot use any other money but that allocation for TV and radio advertising. These caps are designed to provide a kind of level playing field, so that wealthy political parties cannot completely swamp smaller or less wealthy political parties. To an extent, these rules even out access to airtime so that the public has more even access to the policies and programmes of the political parties campaigning in the election. That is a sound principle. Our elections should be a contest of ideas, not of wallets. The Green Party supports having a level playing field for political parties in an election campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhat happens if other non-political parties\u2014third parties or parallel campaigners\u2014can campaign without having an upper spending limit? First, it opens the door very widely to corruption in New Zealand politics. Political parties that have access to wealthy donors\u2014corporate or individual\u2014can funnel those donations to a third party, which can then spend as much money as it likes in negative campaigning. Thousands of dollars can be spent on pamphlets and letters delivered to every household in the country. Enormous commercial billboards can bought up in bulk to display adverts attacking a political party for months at a time. Whole armies of people can be employed to get out on to the street and campaign against a political party that happens to be out of favour with that wealthy group. Hundreds of thousands of dollars can be spent on a campaign to attack a party. That means that a political party can funnel its funds to a third party so that that political party can avoid its spending cap. If one has money, then one can corrupt the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhat is the response of the political parties that are constrained? Well, it depends. If it is the case that the wealthy interests are campaigning against one\u2019s political opponents, then one might think that that is fine. If not, political parties, especially the smaller ones, struggle to contest misleading or false information and struggle to get their message out to the public. Whatever side one is on\u2014whether one benefits from that corruption\u2014one simply cannot argue that that is fair. Some would argue that people do not pay any attention to advertising. I have heard this argument before and it is clearly untrue. Otherwise, we would not have an advertising industry in Aotearoa with an annual turnover of $2 billion. Advertising works; that is why it is done. In this bill there are no limits on how much advertising a third party can buy in order to influence the outcome of an election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThere are some good things in this bill; it is not all bad. We are pleased that the parallel campaigners will have to register with the Electoral Commission if they expect to spend more than $12,000. No New Zealander should ever be in the position of having to hunt down a third party identity because it, like the Exclusive Brethren, has actively hidden its identity from the public. As I explained, transparency is necessary but is not sufficient to combat the opportunity for corruption that an unlimited spending cap provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are pleased about the retention of the donations regime that we argued for in 2007. It does not go as far as we would like it to, but it is a step in the right direction. Political parties should be transparent about their donations. It is worth noting that in a donations disclosure to the Electoral Commission this week of donations over $10,000, we saw that ACT got one, the Progressive party got one, the M\u0101ori Party got one, Labour got one, the Greens got nine, and National got none. Is that not interesting? I am not convinced about that somehow. We would like to see the threshold of donations lowered so that there is considerably more transparency about who has donated to a political party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are very pleased to see that the offence and penalty regime has not changed. It is critical that we have a strong offence and penalty regime in our electoral law, because if the fines are too low, that simply rewards the wealthy players who would rather pay the fine because a breach of the rules enables them to achieve their preferred electoral outcome, which, no doubt, would be of considerable value to them. I will say this again because I believe it: Aotearoa prides itself on being a fair and equitable country. It is a country that we love and work hard to protect. Despite the occasional tripping up, we continue to strive for a better, fairer, and more prosperous nation, where everyone gets a fair go. We continue to strive for honest and open politics, and for good government that hears all people and protects our environment. For decisions as critical as whom we elect as our most senior public decision makers, the utmost fairness, the most stringent rules, and the clearest, most transparent processes are necessary. I look forward to working for that in the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7b82438ae24d5c8e177a8ed7a86d18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7b82438ae24d5c8e177a8ed7a86d18\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E In May 2009 the Institute of Policy Studies in Wellington held a half-day workshop on electoral finance reform. One of the participants at that forum put forward the interesting challenge that there was very little evidence to demonstrate that big money had any impact on the overall outcome of an election. That participant suggested that it might be more appropriate for the emphasis to shift to politicians, who should be bound by a code of conduct. However, other participants were equally adamant that although there may be a lack of evidence to prove that money wins elections, certainly a lack of money loses them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has never entered the competition over whether the most expensive campaign is likely to be the most successful. Our wealth has always been in the power of the people. Nevertheless, we have been well aware of the strong views held about the impact of finances on an election campaign. A fundamental premise of our approach to electoral finance reform has been our commitment to transparency and accountability. We have supported the call of the public for greater transparency. We hope this will encourage political parties to desist from the practice of using trusts or lawyers\u2019 accounts to obscure the identity of donors. In a post-recession conversation, we believe that transparency is just as relevant to electoral finance as it is to any other aspect of our economy. At a time when banks have been able to accrue outrageous profits, when shady loan sharks and the debt police are holding families to ransom, and when the potential of far too many families is trapped in the stranglehold of poverty, it is only right that we have clear rules in place to determine whose interests are served by covering up the use of wealth in a political party context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn this context, then, I have to say that the M\u0101ori Party has been impressed by the commitment of the Minister of Justice to encouraging wholesale support for the reforms to ensure greater certainty and transparency in the conduct of the electoral process. Anyone browsing the Ministry of Justice website can now come across all of the work that has occurred in developing options around electoral finance. They can come to the independent conclusion that a broad consensus has been achieved. The Minister has set a new benchmark in establishing transparency and accountability as hallmarks of the new electoral system\u2014and it is a benchmark that we are pleased to support. We can now download within seconds the issues papers and proposals on electoral finance reform. We can browse the submissions. We can fast track to the slides of a presentation that Professor Andrew Geddis has delivered on the regulation of electoral finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EImportantly, the reforms appear to be oriented in such a way as to actually encourage people to vote. One of the key turn-rounds in the policy has been with regard to advance voting. We think advance voting should be supported as a means of supporting greater uptake of the democratic right of all New Zealanders to vote. In the past, anyone who elected to vote in advance was asked to make a written declaration explaining why such a step was necessary. Following the unanimous decision of the Justice and Electoral Committee in its inquiry into the 2008 general election, the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill removes the requirement for advance voters to make a written declaration before election day. From an administrative point of view, this is helpful in removing another layer of costs from the schedule. More important, it removes a barrier to participation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe saw the appeal of advance voting really take hold of the American voting public during the 2008 campaign. Some experts predicted that one-third of the voting public had banked their vote early, up from 20 percent in 2004. Advance voting was, in fact, a popular strategy employed by Barack Obama, who held enormous \u201CEarly Vote for Change\u201D rallies, flooded the networks with \u201CVote Early\u201D email messages, and placed advance voting ads in more than a dozen popular video games. Whether the same phenomenon would occur here, of course, is anyone\u2019s guess. But we certainly support the right for a person who is qualified to vote in a particular electorate to be a special voter if he or she applies in person to vote within that electorate before polling day. Importantly, we endorse the right of such persons to not complete a written declaration establishing eligibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe other big wave of reforms introduced in this bill is around electoral finance. We are delighted that a party donation made by a body corporate must now be accompanied by a written statement that is signed and dated by an officer of the body corporate, setting out the names of all of the associated entities of the body corporate as at the date of the statement. If there is a failure to comply with this provision, the secretary of the political party must within 20 working days give back to the donor the entire amount of the donation or its entire value. In another new development, third-party promoters who spend or intend to spend more than $12,000 on election advertising during the regulated campaign period must register with the Electoral Commission. The register will be publicly available to ensure openness and transparency concerning the identities of third-party promoters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe believe that both of those aspects\u2014the signed statement of the body corporate and the public register of third-party promoters\u2014are very useful means of ensuring everything spent on behalf of, or towards, political parties is above board and open. It is common knowledge that corporate donors expect a political return on their political investment, so we are pleased that any political negotiations that may result from corporate donations will be well and truly evident through the donations regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe support the proposed increase in the amount of money that parties and candidates can spend on election campaigning. We agree that it should be adjusted at the rate of inflation for each general election. However, in the interests of greater transparency for the general public, it would be useful to know why twice as much funding needs to be available for a by-election campaign as for a general election campaign. We also support the moves to introduce more certainty to what counts as electoral advertising by modernising the definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe would like to see the issue of unethical advertising addressed in further development of the bill. I do not need to remind everyone in this House of the appalling way in which some parties and advertisers have used M\u0101ori as negative fodder during election campaigning. We must never again return to the era where politicians gamble on national identity and threaten the unity that has been so desperately sought by pitching campaigns to create unnatural divisions between iwi and Kiwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe are disappointed that the bill does not provide for reform of the broadcasting regime that has existed since 1990. Although we can understand that there were widely held views on this issue, we cannot forget the issues that have arisen in the past over varying interpretation of rules over the broadcasting spend. We throw into that same thought the general concerns about illegal use of parliamentary funding. We understand that the relationship between the Electoral Act 1993 and Parliamentary Service legislation will now be addressed in separate legislation, and we support that. However, we hope to see some time frames around this issue, as we would not want to see this vital area of reform slip away under the radar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAll things considered, we support this bill at its first reading, and certainly look forward to the ongoing debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00229067ae7009a946bc84fa72e338ae6a9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229067ae7009a946bc84fa72e338ae6a9b\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Elections are one of the most important\u2014if not the most important\u2014part of any democracy. They are supposed to be a testing of ideas and personalities, a debate about the future, and a testing of the mettle of our potential leaders, both locally and nationally. I hark back to my first election in 2005 for the seat of Napier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222336a41e76774efca075d79e24ac8869\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Hark back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fb96fbf495f4a8a8ea406c612c18a6a\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly going back a few years. It was a testing of personalities, if I recall the candidates I was up against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae57c70e4a0a4a8890272b17b0ddc5c1\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Well, your opposition had no personality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317ef843ca6d48c8a5988cda6c8cf2a9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I was up against Russell Fairbrother, a debater of some merit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f34c2571d4748e494017e8ab9e3757a\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Much like the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223594340fa1b9414cbf5667bd8983c8b3\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I could not put myself there. There were certainly different personalities in that test. Anyway, it was a testing of personalities; that is the point I want to make. It was a testing of ideals and, fortunately at that particular time, I was lucky enough to win the seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn any democracy an election needs to be a fair fight. The reality is somewhat different, as many new candidates entering a political race quickly find out. There is no doubt that sitting MPs have the competitive advantage: 3 years of incumbency, 3 years of school visits, 3 years of constituency clinics, 3 years of galas, school prize-givings, and assemblies, 3 years of being in the newspaper, and 3 years to build an awareness and a positive brand with their constituency. There is no doubt that the political tide comes and goes. However, good constituency MPs have the advantage of incumbency, which opposing candidates must battle against from day one. It is tough, but that is the reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ENo law will change that, and this particular bill will not change it, either. But the competitive advantage of incumbency has been somewhat reduced with MMP. In many instances, list MPs are able to establish a pseudo-constituency office, and make out that they are the local MP. That effectively means that the taxpayer is funding a 3-year campaign against the incumbent MP. I am not sure that the wider electorate is particularly happy about that, but, hey, that is the way it is. Once again, it will not change under this legislation. Those anomalies aside, elections need to be regulated to be as fair as possible. It will be the job of the Electoral Legislation Committee, of which I am a member, to ensure that the final legislation is an equitable playing field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThroughout time immemorial human beings have sought ways to obtain competitive advantage within the rules that are in place. It is just part of the human spirit to try to push the boundaries\u2014that Kiwi spirit. If we think about the America\u2019s Cup campaign and the rules that were in place there, we see that the amount of money that was spent\u2014and the number of lawyers who were employed to bend the rules\u2014was incredible. Many lawyers and accountants spend their entire professional lives trying to find ways around existing laws in order to gain advantage for their clients. And election law, dare I say it, is no different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI am sure that immediately this law is passed, political boffins will be looking for ways to improve their lot, to improve their competitive advantage, and to get around the rules. It is therefore very important that the members of the committee obligate themselves to challenge this legislation to ensure that it is as robust as possible. Most of us on the committee have served a couple of elections\u2014and Mr Hughes is one of those people. I think that that experience will be important as we steer the bill through the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELet me give members an example of a situation that currently pushes the boundaries. I will be asking the committee to have a close look at the current position of MPs who own their own office through a trust. They are obliged to provide a market valuation for the rent\u2014no problems there. All do that, and most pay the amount of that valuation. However, some do not charge the full cost of the rent to the Parliamentary Service. The MPs will say that they are saving the taxpayer money, but will then go on to spend their entire taxpayer budget; the taxpayer saves not one cent. Effectively, the MPs have gifted themselves a pecuniary interest from their trusts or companies, which allows them a much better office location, while they are still able to spend their full out-of-office budgets on advertising and other things to help lift their profiles. There is not much problem with this outside the election period, although I still believe that this gift should be declared in an MP\u2019s document of pecuniary interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe real issue that we need to turn our thoughts to, comes during the election period. Here is the question: if an MP has a high-profile corner office\u2014effectively a billboard\u2014for which the Parliamentary Service is not paying the full cost, should the benefit of that additional spend be included as part of an MP\u2019s electioneering cost for the regulated period? My argument would be that not to include that cost would create an unfair advantage. I refer members to the definition of \u201Cadvertising expenses\u201D, which is amended in Part 1 of the bill, when section 3(1)(a)(ii) is substituted in clause 4: \u201Cthe reasonable market value of any material used or applied towards the advertisement that is provided free of charge or below reasonable market value;\u201D. This definition brings the issue into question. It is something we will have to consider, and we will have to make sure that the cost is being declared either within the election expenditure or within the document of pecuniary interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn the extreme situation, MPs could provide their high-profile offices at no cost to the Parliamentary Service, then spend their entire parliamentary budget on self-promotion in the lead-up to the regulated period. If the office is not paid for by the Parliamentary Service, then what is that office? I suggest that it is a campaign office. I am sure that there are other examples of situations like this, and I am sure that committee members will be able to turn their minds to these examples and to provide what I believe should be a fair, transparent, and equitable playing field, going into the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI look forward to sitting on the select committee and dealing with the issues that arise throughout the period of submissions. I encourage New Zealanders to submit to that committee to make their opinions heard, so that we can listen to them and make sure that we deliver the very best legislation possible. It must be legislation that is agreed to as much as possible across the House, so that we have a robust piece of legislation going forward. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022565464d854504e47911793122d8f958e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022565464d854504e47911793122d8f958e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill. It is not often that a senior whip goes slightly off message, but I have to take up the opportunity of joining my opposite number, Chris Tremain, who may well have done the same thing. All I could think of, as he complained about a high-profile street-corner office, was that Stuart Nash must really be getting under his skin in Napier if he wants to change the entire system of the way electoral offices are run from Parliament on the basis that his own individual candidate opponent has a high-profile office. We could almost hear Government members who have such high-profile corner offices\u2014and who were listening to this debate from their offices\u2014lunging at their radios and saying that someone should shut Mr Tremain up before he rewrites all the rules based on a constituency race in Napier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292c3f75051484d309ac8958d4d29a8d6\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Are you reading minds now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4105295d2be4de397e6cc727e11dc9d\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no; that was the last legislation we debated, the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill, I say to Mr Borrows. This particular bill does not. As that previous speaker freely admitted, this legislation does not affect any of those issues whatsoever, and the question of ownership of out-of-Parliament offices is best dealt with through other vehicles, and not through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ELabour is supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the Electoral Legislation Committee, as the Hon Lianne Dalziel, our spokesperson for electoral law, made very clear when she spoke. The bill has a number of elements that we support, but there are certainly some aspects that we want to continue working with the Government on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI pick up David Parker\u2019s point\u2014I strongly agreed with him\u2014that, where parties can come to a compromise position on these sorts of rules, we are better off for it. Labour has tried to signal, throughout this debate, areas where we have moved away from our prior position in terms of the legislation that came immediately before this bill\u2014the Electoral Finance Act. We have moved from that position. We have even moved from some of the positions we held in our submissions in order to meet some of the proposals from the Government. But we really looked, throughout the whole process, for the Government to move from some of its positions as well. The pixie dust of MMP, where we all get up during debates on these kinds of legislation, and give compulsory praise to Simon Power\u2014which I will do shortly because it is in my notes; I want to be back on message, as I mentioned before\u2014cannot simply be because we all agree with National\u2019s position. That is not compromise. The look of shock and horror on National members\u2019 faces makes me realise that that is what they think it is. So I may have struck on a little point there. But I think the main point, of course, is that we want there to be a consensus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMr Tremain made a very good point. He talked about the winds of political fortune changing. Indeed, they have. In the period that we have had MMP, Labour has polled as high as 41 percent and been the major party in this Parliament, and we are now down at 34 percent and in the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6cbc64b33c4c44ae62394c02943559\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: And still dropping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d534b559cf84ffea8900b7acff06961\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Hayes thinks that, with his prescient political predictions. I welcome them, because I know the predictions he made about himself, and what has happened, so I hope he keeps on making predictions about the Opposition. He and I have a little bet on some of those matters, and I look forward to collecting one Sunday in November 2011\u2014or even August, as some people say. National, on the flip side of that, has been at a high of 45 percent at the last poll. It leads the Government now, but of course in 2002 it only got 20 percent of the vote. I know that was long before Mr Quinn was involved with the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022917a609dc68b412ab81cdb11d0d212c3\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t born!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d4d8ee0a7b462e8d6437fe695d26fe\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: In 2002? The member most certainly looks as though he was born by 2002. He looks as though he had enjoyed a very good 50th birthday celebration by the time 2002 rolled around. Political parties on both sides have been up and down. They have enjoyed electoral success and electoral defeat over that period. In 2002, when Mr English was its leader, National relied very heavily on its Parliamentary Service funding for its campaign. That is a matter of public record. I am sure that National now enjoys much greater financial donations as its political fortunes have improved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcc37dccdb248f59351c8581487163e\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: We couldn\u2019t say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a228a861944af487fe98ad6f6a8dcf\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Borrows that it could not have got any worse. I think the National Party\u2019s largest corporate donation in 2002 came from the Clutha RSA. I am sure that things have improved slightly since then, and perhaps some of the city branches are now involved. The main point of this observation is simply that the laws have to work for parties, whatever political situation they find themselves in. I believe that that is where the compromise must be reached. One of the reasons the Electoral Finance Act was not successful is that it had strong, strong opposition from National. I think that National made a deliberate political decision to make that law unworkable by not cooperating with it, and through ensuring\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc4de051be6e41c186cbe26f153e7bca\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s our fault?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bee334856641ae8b75696b459bc6f0\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, I am not ascribing blame; I am simply saying that any law can be picked apart. I am sure the Attorney-General would agree with that. Any law can be made as difficult as possible to implement. For a law to work effectively, we need to have people accepting it. That is the point I am making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI recognise that National did not accept the previous legislation. Of course, that was because some events had happened before that legislation was passed that, I think, a lot of National members would privately say they were not comfortable with. In the House, they cannot say that. There were things that took place involving a third party. The activities of the Exclusive Brethren church have been mentioned before. They probably went beyond the pale of what most people who participate in politics would like to see. I think the fact that we do not know, and that we saw them\u2014[Interruption] Mr Borrows interjects. Given how active the church was in the Whanganui electorate, I would not be interjecting on that particular point, if I was him. There are a lot of provincial and rural members who were great friends of that particular organisation, and who have been much quieter since it came into play. Certainly, we would not want to see a repeat of the 2005 events. The 2008 events, with the major Opposition party not wanting to go along with the law because they disagreed with it so vehemently\u2014and that is no attack; I just refer to the way National felt about it\u2014means that for 2011 we have to have a law that Labour, National, and all the parties feel is fair for them. I think we are getting there, but I want to emphasise Mr Parker\u2019s point that there must be some agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI will touch on three other issues. I will finish talking about the third-party issue by saying that we agree with registration, because we think that it is logical. There is transparency in people having to put their hands up and say that they are not a political party, but they want to influence people and how they cast their party vote puts some sunlight on them. People will be mindful of the activities they are undertaking. That makes a lot of sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe do not have agreement on the fact that the amount they can spend is uncapped. I think that that creates a bit of an illogical difference, where, in a campaign, political parties\u2019 behaviour that clearly seeks party votes in a certain direction is regulated and capped, but behaviour by organisations that set themselves up to overtly influence people\u2019s party votes is uncapped. The Royal Commission on the Electoral System said in 1986 that there would be problems with a two-pronged system like that. I think there are, and I think that the committee should look at that. It should not be too hard to reach a compromise on, because under the old Electoral Finance Act the cap was $120,000, which is quite a lot of money. We have said that, as part of a compromise, we will look for a higher figure, if that is what will get consensus. When we think about it, that is a lot of money for an organisation that is not part of a political party to spend, in order to get involved in an election campaign to support a particular party. When we think through the logistics of it, we will be able to come to some level of agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb61f229c8f408e91fb57aedd3280bf\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s less than your salary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f9ae63141942e09d0da8ad16881205\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sure that Mr Quinn has not put his entire salary into his election campaign. That would be a particularly bad investment in his case. It is almost like the finance companies writ large. Even funding his own deposit seems to be a bit of a waste of time for Mr Quinn. However, this country is a democracy, and people are free to do what they want with their money. I am sure that Mr Quinn will once again subject himself to democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe regulated period, which Lianne Dalziel spent a lot of time discussing, is something we have to get right. What we asked to discuss at the Parliamentary Service Commission was that, if an election was called within 3 months, members who had legitimately spent money from Vote Parliamentary Service on their parliamentary business work would not be caught in the defined period for the election and have that spending counted against their $20,000 cap. An example of that is if Mr Anderton had as his slogan for his parliamentary business work \u201CWorking for Wigram\u201D, and that was approved by the Parliamentary Service\u2014as is allowed for his advertisements in the newspaper\u2014and we go into an election period and he happens to use that same phrase on his election billboards, it would be possible to say that the Parliamentary Service - funded phrase was being used for an election purpose, and all that money would be counted. At the Parliamentary Service Commission, we wanted there to be a bright-line test, so if things were approved for parliamentary business, they would not be caught within a 3-month period. I think that we need to get that absolutely clear at the select committee, because in reading the Minister\u2019s release, it now looks as though the Parliamentary Service Commission determines what the regulated period should be. I do not think that is what the Parliamentary Service Commission thought they would do, at all. I look forward to participating in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u00226d2d9252ded846d1871303131cde3c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d2d9252ded846d1871303131cde3c61\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Te Mana Whakaw\u0101, huri noa i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare i t\u0113nei p\u014D, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I am very pleased to stand and take a short call in the first reading of the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill. As many speakers before me have said this evening, this bill is part of a process of ensuring integrity and durability in a very important part of our constitutional infrastructure in New Zealand. Together with the Electoral (Administration) Amendment Bill, which we are also in the process of debating, it establishes the credibility and certainty of the institutions and processes that together instil confidence in New Zealanders in the constitution of our country. The process that has been followed to get us to this point was led by our very able Minister of Justice, and it has been an inclusive one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EIt is important that electoral law reform enjoys the support, confidence, and understanding of the many and different participants in the process. Up to this point we have ensured that parliamentary parties as well as the public have felt fully engaged, or that they have had the opportunity to engage, in this process, so that we have arrived at a bill that reflects a broad consensus. All of us in this House, no matter which part of the political spectrum we are from, are committed to ensuring that we have, and can secure, enduring law reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThis bill has six main provisions, on which many speakers before me have commented. They are about identifying exactly who the players in this process are likely to be and the regulations that they need to abide by. Therefore the provisions cover the promoters of election advertisements, the electoral advertising itself, the regulation of the campaign period, the campaign expenditure limits, donations, and, of course, the opportunity to provide and amend regulations in respect of advance voting. I am\u2014and other members have indicated that they are, too\u2014really pleased that we are getting clarity on a range of these issues. Having participated at the 2008 election, I found that much of my time was spent in trying to establish clarity and certainty about what I and my campaign team were allowed to do and not allowed to do. As my colleague Amy Adams has indicated, often the answers were not very clear at all, and we were left in a kind of limbo, which made us susceptible to doing the wrong thing even while trying very mightily to do the right thing. The provisions in this bill will give us all greater certainty, not only for those of us who will be very active participants in the process but also for the most important players in this process: the voters of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EThis bill marks an important step in New Zealand\u2019s constitutional evolution. The necessity for such an evolution to occur can be seen not only here in New Zealand but also in the United Kingdom, where elections are currently taking place. Those of us who have had the opportunity to look at the analysis of how the voting trends would go under the current first-past-the-post system that Britain continues to use can see that it is really important for voters to understand the system that they are engaged in, what their votes will mean, and whom they will get as MPs after election day. The evolution of our constitutional framework here in New Zealand is highlighted by comparing where we are in New Zealand with what is happening in the UK, from which we have inherited all of our Westminster system of parliamentary governance. New Zealand has adopted changes to that system as we have seen the necessity of becoming more attuned with what is required within the polity of New Zealand, and this bill will continue to contribute to that constitutional evolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003EI look forward to participating as a member in the Electoral Legislation Committee under the able chairpersonship of Amy Adams, and to hearing submissions on the bill from as wide a variety of people as possible. It is important that New Zealanders take the opportunity that the select committee process offers them to make submissions, because what we end up with will be a reflection of all their contributions and of our select committee\u2019s consideration of them. I very much look forward to hearing those submissions and debating the provisions of this bill in the select committee, and I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on this bill at this time. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022300d42fc413d4c8bbd1d91cb1978bb7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022300d42fc413d4c8bbd1d91cb1978bb7a\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292b1accc7dc48868fd8662c88646ffb\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Are you some kind of horse? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d89d0474754afbad7f5761f9e5a83e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s his list ranking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265932d65a5f443ebaf3771924fc5e7a1\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014amend the Electoral Act 1993 to provide a package of reforms to ensure greater certainty and transparency in the conduct of elections, according to the explanatory note of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI can see that my tie is causing great amusement on the other side of the House. I will advise members opposite, because it is a good time to give this advice to them, that 350 is the name of a campaign by a group of young people who mobilised on the climate change issue last year. It is a bit of a shame that there is not instant familiarity with the issue among members opposite, as there is by members on this side of the House. Three hundred and fifty parts per million is the level at which carbon levels in the atmosphere have to be stabilised in order to keep global temperature increases below 2 degrees Celsius, which the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says is the key goal for us. These young people\u2014and I know this is a slight digression, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I hope you will indulge me\u2014came to see our caucus this morning to talk to us about our policies in this area. They were incredibly engaging young people, and it was great to see them. I have worn this tie in their honour, and it is good to be able to explain that to members opposite. Hopefully that will end the levity on this serious issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f337f40546524d808a4db031e0ea4de7\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure you just made that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f7a568f02e444d84029f53f2fc8406\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure Mr Tremain that I never make things up. That is a monopoly that is enjoyed by members on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs other speakers on this side of the House have said, Labour will support the referral of the new electoral legislation to the Electoral Legislation Committee, but there are some real concerns about this bill. The concerns that I want to speak about are very similar to those that I mentioned in respect of the electoral referendum legislation that parallels this bill and was dealt with in the House a week or two ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EOne major problem is the lack of any spending limit on parallel campaigners. No one in his or her right mind would want to see any election that is conducted at a local or national level in New Zealand be overrun by cash. On this side of the House we do not want to see that. We do not want to grant to parallel campaigners the ability to campaign on the two issues before voters without any financial limits, thereby overwhelming other voices in the election campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is clear from the debate around the Electoral Finance Act that there was widespread concern about limiting parallel campaigner spending to $120,000. Obviously, if there is to be a cap in the area of parallel campaigning\u2014and Labour says there should be\u2014we would consider a higher spending cap than that, but not unlimited third-party spending. Hopefully the Electoral Legislation Committee, under the chairpersonship of Amy Adams, will hear a lot of evidence on and address that matter. As I said in my speech on the earlier companion legislation, no one wants to see a rerun of what occurred at the 2005 election. The Government has not properly considered the effects of a lack of proper limits allowing wealthy individuals or groups to overwhelm other voices in the election campaign. If the Government has considered that and none the less has produced the bill in its current shape, then I say shame on it for actually allowing that to occur. That cannot be allowed to stand after the select committee process if we are to try, as a House, to produce decent electoral law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is a good thing that under the bill parallel campaigners will have to register with the Electoral Commission. Clearly that will increase the sort of transparency that anyone who thinks about this sort of law will want to see. It is an improvement on the current law, which requires parallel campaigners only to state their name and address on an advertisement and to get permission before advertising in support of a political party or candidate, so it should be supported. But clearly that greater transparency will have a beneficial effect only if forcing parallel campaigners to register reveals the person or entity responsible for the advertising. Under this bill\u2019s regime it would be possible to use a front organisation to register as a promoter. A lawyer or another professional person could simply be used as an agent, and that would prevent the public from knowing who really was behind the group\u2019s spending. There is no requirement to disclose where a promoter\u2019s money comes from. That is not a satisfactory element of the bill, and the select committee will have to address that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Royal Commission on the Electoral System concluded way back in 1986 that limiting the spending by political parties but not that by parallel campaigners lacked any sort of logic, because political parties can simply give money to a lobbyist to run a negative campaign for them. Nothing in this legislation will address that evil; in fact, it will be exacerbated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis very problem is also faced in the US at the moment. In January the Supreme Court struck down the \u201Csoft\u201D money prohibitions in the McCain-Feingold Act, the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of, I think, 2002. Eighty percent of Americans think that is a bad thing, notwithstanding that it was a restriction on absolute freedom of speech. There was a widespread acceptance, even in that bastion of freedom of expression, that in the area of electoral law we cannot allow money to buy votes. So now in the US there is a vacuum as to what to do with \u201Csoft\u201D money. Everybody knows that in the November mid-term elections, if that striking down of the law is not remedied, then there will simply be a deluge of \u201Csoft\u201D money from corporates in favour of conservative candidates. The electorate will be awash with cash from the cash-rich part of the political spectrum. People who support democracy know that that is not a good thing. It is not good to see us replicating in our own legislation the vacuum that exists through the result of a court decision in the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EBecause political parties do face strict spending limits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ef089875a9c48d19af9ec9d4937acee\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I draw your attention to the Standing Orders, at page 17\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226418bc3da979456c9233f8b438c5cc01\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Speakers\u2019 rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267dbe95fe63945efb5e160b50ba15a46\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; it is Speaker\u2019s ruling 17/1. Although the first sentence of that ruling refers to the wearing of a hat, the second sentence talks about the wearing of attire with advertising or a message written on it being unacceptable. I wonder whether you would like to rule on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ef1e10983a4389a43adc2824aebf8a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule. In my view the member is just interrupting the speaker who is on his feet. There is nothing untoward in what the member is wearing, and I ask the member to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c09bc8a7dc4ebaab884dd53e81e4c0\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I know that the 350 group will appreciate my wearing its tie and will not mind the fact that the member who has resumed his seat, notwithstanding his credentials as a climate change denier, is present in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EPolitical parties face strict spending limits, and, as I said, the fact that both National and Labour spent close to their statutory limit in 2008 is important here. There will be an incentive in this bill, if we do not address the parallel campaign issue and the campaign spending limits issue, for parties to work with parallel campaigners who are not subject to the limits, in an attempt to get round the rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI hope that the chair of the select committee is paying close attention to these issues. She is nodding. That is good to see, because if a credible result is to occur from this process\u2014which will be to the benefit of her career\u2014then it would be really good to see these loopholes being closed. [Interruption] It is good that she says she appreciates the advice. I am not always the best person to give career-enhancing advice, but if we care about the quality of the outcome, the matter ought to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs initially proposed the new electoral finance provisions would have required parallel campaigners to register only when they were spending more than $20,000, but this bill contains a lower threshold of $12,000. It seems to us that it would be far better to go back to at least the original proposal. It is useful that the Minister has engaged in consultation prior to the introduction of the legislation, and I think it is appropriate to pay some tribute to him for that exercise, because the experience of the House has been that in producing sustainable and durable electoral law it is appropriate to have widespread consultation on its provisions, and, if possible, to achieve a consensus across the House on those provisions. I hope that will be the outcome of this process, but if it is to be the outcome, then the issues that I have sought to address in my speech do need to be sorted out in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022c91521e11df94548b93bcd4d9339637a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c91521e11df94548b93bcd4d9339637a\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to be able to take a very short call in respect of the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Bill. It is great to hear members from the Opposition side of the House talk about things like consensus and understanding, bearing in mind the atrocity we had regarding the legislation enacted when the previous Labour Government was in office. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20100504d65b0c9313194dcf942e4a4127fdc222000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"