"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d41eaf5a409c44e28f122dcdda563756\u0022\u003EThursday, 9 December 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9fb9397b2df4cf28467923a540b1e14\u0022\u003EThursday, 9 December 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b85a79740d304e728e2b94dfa7414b87\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ba9df3e9ef64de0858624dad3fe930d\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022167e1eb38600412ca6877b34d6ebb2f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167e1eb38600412ca6877b34d6ebb2f9\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E When the House resumes next week priority will be given to the Committee stage and third readings of the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advanced Voting) Amendment Bill, the Parliamentary Service Amendment Bill, and the Electoral Referendum Bill. Depending on progress this week, the House should expect to adjourn some time next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7e84bb538c44bcfb2370c8aabf5bb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7e84bb538c44bcfb2370c8aabf5bb65\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder whether the Leader of the House could be a little more fulsome in his explanation of the House\u2019s programme as we come to the end of the year, particularly in respect of the legislation that he hopes to progress through urgency. It is clear that all parties regard the electoral bills as being urgent matters that need to be passed by the end of the year. But why is it necessary to take urgency on other bills that are not as urgent and leave bills that are urgent out of the urgency motion, given that previously in his business statements, when we have taken him on his word, he has sought the cooperation of parties for urgency on non-controversial bills in order to avoid exactly the kind of urgency that he is about to subject the House to before the end of the year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220156f5aca6454a80aaa699abdb1b70a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220156f5aca6454a80aaa699abdb1b70a3\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I will make a number of points. First, the way in which urgency has been conducted this year has been designed to give the Business Committee a great deal more input into when urgency occurs and what is to be covered during that time. But that does not take away from the fact that we are a very busy, very active Government, which has a very active programme. The Speaker, more than anybody, will be aware that the House is due to rise shortly for a 7 to 8-week adjournment. Therefore, when we come back there will be a Prime Minister\u2019s statement, and much of February will be taken up in the reply that is made to that statement. So we need to get a whole lot of first readings done in order to get those bills to select committees. There is nothing wrong with doing that. I think most New Zealanders would be rather shocked to hear Labour complain about having to work for more than 17 hours a week in the House. We think that that is not enough time; that is why we are taking a few extra hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022041ef5be5975466daf256eabbdc0f46d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041ef5be5975466daf256eabbdc0f46d\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The point of the business statement given by the Leader of the House is to outline the programme, and then there is a response from the Opposition. I asked him some questions about why he was going down a certain path, in respect of some bills that are urgent not being taken under urgency, and of other bills that are not urgent being taken under urgency. I asked him those questions, and instead of his replying to them we got a stream of abuse, saying Labour does not want to work a certain number of hours. That is an abuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00225a514561828347d19418b6117af15844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a514561828347d19418b6117af15844\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was happy to listen to the honourable member, but he must not use the point of order process to start to get into a debate about who has been abusive. I must confess that I acknowledge that the questions the member put were not answered as fully as he would have liked, but that is a matter for the Leader of the House. I cannot intervene in that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce925684b6c64b1f8f948569d9979f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce925684b6c64b1f8f948569d9979f27\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did answer those questions. I answered them in very straight terms. I am sorry if you did not understand what I said, but I gave the senior whip an answer to the question that he asked. The fact is that the House is going into an 8-week adjournment. We think doing a bit of extra time ahead of that is not a bad idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb620f62ad54918a45cd2c7136ca5d7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the whole House for my stupidity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e2884fec7654e4b9d23aecccaf17083\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022121e3700831d428bae8962222febde6d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a042c05a3fa24d318f45cc46c1feacc8\u0022\u003EEconomy, Rebalancing\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002284388dd678334bc69e0709e2d6a51551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284388dd678334bc69e0709e2d6a51551\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on the economy moving away from Government spending, housing speculation and borrowing, and towards savings and exporting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002242655be67871461a8293405bf16689a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242655be67871461a8293405bf16689a5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This morning the Reserve Bank issued its Monetary Policy Statement for December. It confirms what I have been saying about the economy in recent months. The near-term outlook for GDP growth has softened. Beyond this, higher export volumes and the Canterbury earthquake repairs are expected to push growth above the Reserve Bank\u2019s previous forecast. For example, it now expects GDP to grow by 3.4 percent in the year to March 2012. It also expects inflation to remain subdued after a temporary one-off spike from the GST increase, and forecasts continuing falls in unemployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d73c15375354ac5b6432f894dd698f7\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Reserve Bank\u2019s forecast say about national savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220faa16073e5f411485855e93394337b8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It confirmed what I think we all know, which is that New Zealand needs to lift its levels of national savings, and it pointed to some encouraging early signs. It notes that the current account deficit is actually low by New Zealand\u2019s recent standards. It predicts that the current account deficit will average around 3 percent of GDP over the next 3 years, which is significantly better than the average of 8 percent between 2006 and 2008. It notes what we have all observed\u2014that households are being cautious with their spending. They are saving more and they are paying down debt, despite interest rates remaining very low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa4ed110ebb4f709f0ee9e66961f411\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the Reserve Bank\u2019s forecast issued today, can he confirm that it shows growth revised downwards by a full percent through mid-2011, unemployment tracking above 6 percent through 2011, and a $4 billion blowout in the fiscal deficit, such that the economy is now tracking below the worst-case scenario in Budget 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c410ef17c74051990703349a658684\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think that any of that is news. For some time we have been discussing in the House the fact that the economy has been softer through the middle of this year. The forecasts for the year ending March 2011 are something like 0.5 or 0.75 percent lower than was expected at Budget time. That is correct, and because people are saving more and spending less, we are laying the platform for better growth later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dceb61a7041436faefa7e7ae418a931\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Reserve Bank say about the role of the Government in helping to increase New Zealand\u2019s national savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f93e94354c4b3784108c432a8061df\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank encourages the Government to get back to surplus a bit sooner than the current settings. It argues that faster elimination of the deficit would improve savings and ease pressures on interest rates and, therefore, on the exchange rate. That would have the benefit of reducing our dependence on international borrowing, increase returns to exporters, and assist the rebalancing of this economy, which is under way but not at the speed that the Government would like to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223716c867536406395b33dda45614941\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister told the House yesterday that the deficit is set to grow to $11 billion this year, can he confirm that this is more than $4 billion over the $6.9 billion forecast in Budget 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d02e73b4f846be85d37ac5077d907d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is expected to be larger than the Budget forecast in 2010, and the reasons for that have been outlined, which are that the economy was flatter, particularly in the first quarter of this financial year, and we have also had one or two one-off expenses, like the Canterbury earthquake. The member may think differently, but I think that that expenditure was unavoidable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222316a7668bb4a288762befabc71f960\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What measures will the Government consider next year to reduce fiscal deficits and return to surplus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d55540c5631482cb0617e07e666173c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We are committed to getting back to surplus no later than 2015-16. The Government will continue with the spending discipline that it has exerted for the last couple of years, and those disciplines will continue to tighten on the public sector. Next week we will issue the Government\u2019s first investment statement, which will make public for the first time in a sensible way the size and ambition of the Government\u2019s capital investment programme through to 2015, how it is to be funded, and where efficiencies can be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c67691dcb384ddc81d36168604acfbd\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that for all seven quarters that he has been Minister of Finance, real GDP per capita has so far gone backwards, which is why New Zealand households have gone backwards and are struggling to make ends meet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282ba99ca9e1247a48eb6cec4225c9b6b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand households have not gone backwards. Some certainly have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bda3c9b43f2467f83da5b7d71f06593\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227feffea3c6ed4bc58bdb16fad6e1a77b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Some have, because people who relied on the previous Government\u2019s debt-funded binge to secure their jobs were sorely disappointed. They have lost their jobs, they have had income cuts, and we are working very hard to rebuild their prospects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8361057fbb14fcc94b3fce72facb0e7\u0022\u003EHon Sir Roger Douglas\u003C/span\u003E: Does Treasury advice regarding the ownership of State-owned assets, referred to by Treasury\u2019s John Crawford, include recommendations to expand public-private partnerships through partial sales of State-owned assets; if so, would he consider such a proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2c9d6990964fa28e440b17aad0305f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury, as far as I can recall, has not made that particular recommendation. The Government\u2019s position has been clear, and that is no sales of assets in this term. If that position changes, we will campaign on it. But I might say that that is relevant to a very small part of the Government\u2019s balance sheet. The Government owns $235 billion worth of assets, and if we can improve the management of all of those assets it will have a much more significant impact on taxpayers\u2019 value than a few partial floats would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228836851b942446e8a33db504dd3e891e\u0022\u003EHon Sir Roger Douglas\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s reply, does he believe that the $94 billion overseen by the Crown Ownership Monitoring Unit is the best use of that capital for New Zealanders; if so, why are the dividends paid out by the 17 State-owned enterprises it monitors showing an average return of 2 percent, compared with 4.5 percent for private companies listed on the New Zealand Exchange?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b5e45aaf114b81829f9f8dd15221ec\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a very good question. In recent years State-owned enterprises were allowed to retain much of their surplus cash. That has gone into an extensive investment programme, and taxpayers have not yet benefited from that. We should be expecting significant increases in dividends from that significant increase in investment in recent years. The Government has published that information so that everyone can see what will be required to get better performance out of those assets, and it is quite a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a7f4b2d816b4d64a32d4e304fce2614\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u2014International Travel with Spouse\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00228114064e3e844504908376521332dd80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228114064e3e844504908376521332dd80\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his answer to question No. 11 yesterday that Sammy Wong did not accompany Pansy Wong on any ministerial trips to China?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a4fd04fc1a847ab8e52ad999b15d50c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a4fd04fc1a847ab8e52ad999b15d50c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because yesterday\u2019s question specifically asked whether the Prime Minister had approved Pansy Wong having private time on any of her ministerial trips to China, and whether her husband had accompanied her on any of those visits. Mr Wong did not accompany Pansy Wong on any ministerial visit where she had private time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a625698fea9d41929656bc8b1677683f\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it was a good idea to be a smart alec with the truth when yesterday answering a primary question on notice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c7d2198ea941c08575e438dc5db59b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Standing Orders do not allow members to ask questions that include remarks to the Minister that are unparliamentary, really. I invite the member to repeat his question in a way that brings it within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40e53f78f4448288af9f7f490b7f70e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to ask you what your ruling is. There are a number of words that, as you say, are unparliamentary. Is \u201Csmart alec\u201D one of them now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228045d950f9dc46078c34753c3c64e62b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the honourable member; the member makes a fair point of order. I chose my words poorly. In respect of debate, the member is quite right that \u201Csmart alec\u201D is not an unparliamentary expression. The Standing Orders around the asking of questions, though, are somewhat different. Questions are not meant to contain allegations or assertions that are unfortunate. And I think the expression was unnecessary to the question being asked. I am sure the question can be phrased in a way that does not accuse the Minister of being a smart alec, and that is the issue. I accept the member\u2019s point of order, which was well made. I am not ruling out that language; it is just that, in respect of questions, they should not contain that sort of language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a9ee478bc2f43b188665af2fe56a105\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is a good idea to answer a question on notice in that manner, especially when the Prime Minister has already answered a written question\u2014No. 35737\u2014and decided to give a completely different answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a0f4630f9f5433e89c869bc88496f0e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister believes in answering the questions that are asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222325e35cef564529bf344daa0004ce55\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Can he recall that he\u2014the Prime Minister\u2014himself when to China in April 2009, and that before Mr Sammy Wong joined him on his trip Mr Wong\u2019s private, self-funded business travel included a visit to one or more schools in Wuxi city as \u201CMacleans College\u2019s sole agent\u201D; if so, why did Mr McPhail conclude in paragraph 96 of last Friday\u2019s report that Mr Wong\u2019s \u201CChinese business interests [are] limited to the hovercraft company \u2026\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225738f3cc15a64b6cac3b201a44d86a76\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Minister, I may have to invite the member to rephrase his question, because the Prime Minister has no responsibility for trips that are not ministerial visits, and neither does the Prime Minister have any responsibility for the investigation conducted by the Parliamentary Service. But I do not what to deprive the member of his questions, so I suggest that he rephrase his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259cc2c584e404f40b88d5b5f2ba47316\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Generally in the House members are not given the indulgence of having several attempts at re-asking several questions. Mr Hodgson appears to have been given that opportunity, and I would be interested to know just what the rules are now about questions that are either out of order or misdirected, and how often any member of the House will get the opportunity to re-ask a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b695957397491994a43f907506e460\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter for the Speaker. What I could have done, if I had been absolutely certain of the entire question, is say that a certain part of it was in order, because I believe that a certain part of it was in order. Had the entire question been out of order, I think I would have had more sympathy with the member\u2019s point of order. Part of the question, in my view, was not out of order, but in its totality it was not within the Standing Orders. That is why I am asking him to rephrase it\u2014to make sure that the whole question he is asking is within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228421f9594c96466caebc0a0284e747e4\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Can he recall that the Prime Minister himself went to China in April 2009, and that before Mr Sammy Wong joined him Mr Wong\u2019s private, self-funded business travel included a visit to one or more schools in Wuxi city as \u201CMacleans College\u2019s sole agent\u201D; if so, does he understand why Mr McPhail concluded in paragraph 96 of last Friday\u2019s report that Mr Wong\u2019s \u201CChinese business interests [are] limited to the hovercraft company \u2026\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893b0aab288b43e982997ce0b6817f45\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma I have with the question asked is that the Prime Minister has absolutely no responsibility for Mr McPhail\u2019s report, and neither does he have any responsibility for private travel by Mr Sammy Wong. The Prime Minister certainly has responsibility for the Prime Minister\u2019s own trip that the member referred to in his question, but the dilemma I have is that the question goes way beyond the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility. That is why I asked the member to rephrase it, and it seems to me that he has essentially asked the same question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4a95c063e2412e8d12fd85a01315e7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there are two points you have indicated on the question of responsibility. My colleague did make it clear that Mr Wong, as part of his private travel, joined the Prime Minister as part of the business delegation. No. 1, that is a link that goes to responsibility for someone who is part of the business delegation that the Prime Minister was leading to China. The other point was\u2014and you have ruled on a number of occasions, from what we regard as National patsy questions\u2014that Ministers can be asked about reports. This is a report, it is a report that has been made public, the Prime Minister has commented on it, and the Prime Minister has used that report in his decision-making process as far as the formation of his Cabinet is concerned. It is not his report, but it is no different from, in my opinion, his being asked to comment on a report in the Dominion Post.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b29d83142f24f72b7e22c38c3d1969b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point is fairly made in that under the Standing Orders at the moment opinions can certainly be sought, as long as that is the way that the question is interpreted\u2014that it is only an opinion being sought. I will allow the question, but it would have been helpful if the linkage to the Prime Minister\u2019s business delegation that the member has just made in a point of order had been made in the question. That linkage would have helped. But I will allow the Minister to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236cb78eeee414afe818ee6b106b9ab02\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631f19ad8e704515beaef93882f3dde3\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that Mr Wong visited other schools at other times, too, including a high school affiliated to Nanjing Normal University; and noting that he has had many taxpayer-assisted trips to China, and that there are a lot of schools in China, does he still believe that no business was done on any taxpayer-subsidised trips?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d331fc61a343e5a8f0a51648f8b6f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma the member is getting into is that he is asking the Prime Minister to accept a report for which the Prime Minister has no responsibility. What is more, the trips the member is referring to\u2014from what has transpired already\u2014were not part of the business delegation. They were part of a private trip, it would seem, and the Prime Minister has no responsibility for that private trip. That is the dilemma the House faces. These are important issues\u2014I accept that, absolutely\u2014but questions do have to be within the Standing Orders, and Ministers cannot be questioned on matters for which they have no responsibility. I have allowed the member to rephrase two questions so far\u2014both supplementary questions\u2014yet I feel that this third supplementary question is not within the Standing Orders, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cacd35adfaf8470a877f7fd345720b40\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have the Prime Minister relying on the word of one of his former Ministers, as did Mr McPhail, that Mr Sammy Wong had only one business interest in China, which did not include these schools. The Prime Minister has relied on that report\u2014as I think you have, Mr Speaker, though we cannot ask you questions about it\u2014and I think, with the Prime Minister having indicated that he has relied on the report, it is appropriate for him to be questioned on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873284c33d2546fbacfa985222697098\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: This issue bears on ministerial responsibility. The fact is that the MP Pansy Wong resigned from Cabinet, and at that stage the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility ceased. The matter that then proceeded regarding reports on parliamentary travel was a matter for the Parliamentary Service and for the Speaker. It is drawing a very long bow to say that privately funded trips of the spouse of an MP who is eligible for Parliamentary Service support are the responsibility of the Prime Minister. It just cannot be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d2541674954072b59220f47b0f54a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Having listened to the points of order\u2014which are made in good faith, I fully accept\u2014I believe I do have to rule that supplementary question out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3df58699fc4c70acaccb91470166d4\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister now think it is appropriate to label the McPhail report as a whitewash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad31bb8477b49b8a8140dd48f5fa484\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma, again, I have with that question is the Prime Minister is not at all responsible for the McPhail report, and asking the Prime Minister whether it is appropriate is asking him to accept some responsibility for it. That is the dilemma I have with the question. I will give the member a chance to get wording that is reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee61faa5e714636900236272e5f725d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You conduct the office of Speaker with generosity, but I would have to say that it is exceeding the generosity the House would afford to any MP to give that member, who prides himself on his competence, a third go at asking a third supplementary question. I have never seen that before, and I do not think it is a habit the House should get into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0893c960ee45e987abcee05699dd1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order\u2014[Interruption] There will be no interjections. I accept the point of order that the member made, but the difficulty that the Speaker is in is there is interest in this issue. It is very important that the Speaker, who is also involved in this issue because the Speaker ordered an inquiry into it, is not seen to be preventing members from being able to pursue the matter within the Standing Orders. But the questions asked do have to come within the Standing Orders; I have to insist on that. Although I accept that maybe the Speaker is being unduly generous, I have said that the member could attempt to rephrase his supplementary question, but it would have to come within the Standing Orders. I offer the Hon Pete Hodgson the chance, but the supplementary question must come within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022332048ee3003489b9f525dfb042f655c\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Has he read the McPhail report into the activities of a person who was until recently a member of his Cabinet; and what did he think of that report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d118a98abfe248238498fd921b345371\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I honestly cannot answer that question. I do not know whether the Prime Minister has read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce92940347049279e6200ee011d567e\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that asking the Auditor-General to investigate, as he did in the case of the Hon Phil Heatley, may now be a good idea after all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e75276aa6d40bf851e383c67d0adc4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has made it quite plain that if anyone has information that may be relevant to this issue it can be put in front of the Auditor-General to be investigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da95a8fb24f14a7baf4aab5cd64f0f0b\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. They are both off Chinese websites, they are both in Mandarin, and they are both translated in parts into English. Both documents refer to visits of Sammy Wong to schools. One is dated March 2009 and the other date is unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9e66b6103348329d7726a93e7c5ec8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those two documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022accb188bbfc8449aa924e94d906b0f7e\u0022\u003ETobacco Point-of-sale Advertising\u2014Rationale for Ban\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002207152c43162b4647bf69651f49ee4355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207152c43162b4647bf69651f49ee4355\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What is the rationale behind the move to prohibit the display of tobacco products for sale in retail outlets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b6976554ef4331942627f8ec756833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b6976554ef4331942627f8ec756833\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is serious about saving lives and reducing harm caused by smoking. A growing body of evidence shows that tobacco displays prompt impulse purchasing. There is a clear link between displays and young people taking up smoking. It is vital that we do more to help people quit smoking and to stop young people from being tempted to take up the habit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee0e1d2df584e358e45da7050c1f4e4\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: What other tobacco controls are being introduced to reduce tobacco consumption?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb06f9dcc144863920051157ba3bef7\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: The Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill brings in a range of other controls, including the ability to issue instant infringement fines to those selling products to under-age people. We will also be monitoring the progress on Australia\u2019s proposal to legislate plain packaging of tobacco products by 2012, and we will explore the option of New Zealand making similar moves in alignment with Australia. Those controls, combined with the increase in excise tax over the next 3 years, are powerful tools in reducing smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6c358e0d3f74c4d9b695c39588ba9d2\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: What public health benefits are expected over time as a result of reducing tobacco consumption?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aafc9954893d46b787c37eb22d2e7e9b\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Exposure to smoking in the home and tobacco use itself result in a staggering figure of around 5,000 deaths a year. Every day 13 people die from smoking-related diseases. Reduced tobacco consumption has a direct correlation with a reduction in cancers, strokes, blindness, coronary heart disease, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease\u2014and the list goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e78fadb943248089b4fe35ceb96d763\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Why did it take nearly 2 years for her to adopt the Health Committee\u2019s recommendation to remove tobacco displays, given that she had all the evidence she needed 2 years ago, that she has no new evidence, and that her Government has shown that it can acquiesce in just a matter of hours to a corporation like Warner Bros?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb64a53a326a42328b69b945468c849c\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I think 2 years beats 9 years any day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b45a9ff205497399432e5dbe7aeaa1\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224955ab9ada6b4337970be1ec5562cd15\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Has the honourable member quite finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297133e7c5ea644f88f38d32039a36a09\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Has the public been consulted on the issue of tobacco displays?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d55e3a6d9dd419c8e7971902d6d5275\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, two public consultation processes have been undertaken. The interesting point in all of this\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f334aa0affe4c85a1885d1580dd5cc8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to both sides of the House that a question was asked of the Minister and the House deserves the courtesy of being able to hear the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2994155130d4a76bcbc0361b314cf21\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, two public consultation processes have been undertaken, and the interesting point in all of this is that members of the public, including those who are smokers, are totally supportive of the actions that the Government is taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e493336a03604eedbe9849ba5b7bf82d\u0022\u003EDrink-driving, Blood-alcohol Limit\u2014Support for Reduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002252ced53855ec4885831db33e04875a4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ced53855ec4885831db33e04875a4e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Has he received any feedback or information in support of lowering the adult blood-alcohol concentration to 0.05 that has given him any doubt or cause for reflection this year about his decision to retain the level at 0.08?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00223af6c0330c2d4072897eb2cfad882fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223af6c0330c2d4072897eb2cfad882fbf\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I have received feedback on this issue, as I have received feedback on a number of transport issues that I have dealt with this year. I always reflect carefully on the feedback that I receive, and I am comfortable with the decision that I have made. I note that I am yet to reflect for as long as the previous Labour Government did. It left office after 9 years, having stated in 2001 that it needed more information in order to make a decision on this issue, then spent the next 8 years presumably reflecting on the need for information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ff44ab100d44251abab8d4a3a7388af\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealand be at the front of the war on drink-driving, when the UK Government is considering the North report to drop the limit there to 0.05 and in Australia a debate has begun about lowering the limit to 0.02, which means that New Zealand could end up having a legal drink-drive limit four times that of, say, a city like Melbourne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722a130990b8460294e940402677e4ca\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the UK Government is considering that report at the moment. Of course, it currently has a lower road toll than either New Zealand or Australia with the 0.08 limit. I note that it is considering not putting down the limit, in favour of more research into the change. I also note that the Quebec Government in Canada has recently rejected a decision to lower the drink-drive limit from 0.08 to 0.05 in favour of more education and more tests at the current level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229205494b98114da98225d5afaae8cc34\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Which adult limit has the most community support, as demonstrated by public opinion polls and submissions: the current limit of 0.08 that he is leaving in place, or the 0.05 limit that has been proposed by Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213a13c67c66247d3ae7101465f3cea2d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the Labour Party is, of course, a lion in Opposition on this stuff. I think the member should reflect on whether, if he ever gets the chance to be in Government again, Labour will actually get around to changing the limit. I think the important thing to note is that statistics show that 72 percent of all alcohol-related deaths on our roads are caused by drivers who either have a prior drink-driving conviction or are more than 50 percent over the current legal adult limit. I think it could be said the member may be promoting a change that does not have a significant impact, in the way that tackling recidivist and high-level drink-drivers can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b35e1fb1294b0e8113176824e4121e\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has Bob McMillan of Team McMillan BMW talked to him regarding his concerns about the current 0.08 blood-alcohol limit, given that Mr McMillan took out this advertisement in the New Zealand Herald and gave $50,000 to the National Party so that he could \u201Cmix with our master\u201D; and if even major National Party donors do not agree with his blood-alcohol limit, why does he not accept the consensus that now exists right across this country and lower the adult blood-alcohol limit to 0.05?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f5d699c316b426dab3852e183395332\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure, but the member seems to be suggesting that donors to the National Party should influence public policy decisions. I think that is a rather outrageous suggestion, and it can only be something that the Labour Party is familiar with, rather than the National Government. I point out that the Government is doing a lot on this issue. The Government is running a nil limit for recidivist drink-drivers and a nil limit for young drivers, introducing alcohol interlocks, and finally collecting the data that the previous Government refused to collect, despite recognising back in 2001 that it needed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210f1856ef91b45c0a9493d438af97b0e\u0022\u003EHousing, State and Social\u2014Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group Recommendations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5792c476d51489db2c31e47a28b25a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5792c476d51489db2c31e47a28b25a7\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcement has he made about the direction of social housing in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00222760a7b9eaa54b3b81b08dc1ec618970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222760a7b9eaa54b3b81b08dc1ec618970\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Today I announced the overarching decisions in response to the recommendations of the Housing Shareholders\u2019 Advisory Group. It has become apparent that the status quo for the provision of State housing is no longer sustainable and we need to make some significant changes. As such, the Government will be acting on many of the group\u2019s key recommendations. These recommendations include working closely with the third sector to grow the total quantum of social housing in New Zealand, the end to having a State house for life, the introduction of reviewable tenancies for all Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants from 1 July 2011\u2014that is, new tenants, not current ones\u2014and placing responsibility for housing-related policy with one agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f24d18425145bcbbfc213d00b0062e\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What will the introduction of reviewable tenancies mean for new Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7b942b655b482ebed15a92e247f746\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to providing a house for those in need for as long as that need exists. The introduction of reviewable tenancies means that from 1 July next year all new tenants will have their tenancy periodically reviewed. For many, their need for a State house will be a long-term situation, and they will be housed for as long as that need exists. However, we will work with those who have seen a significant improvement in their circumstances to find them alternative accommodation. That alternative might be in the community housing sector; it might be in the private sector. Once reviewable tenancies have been implemented for new tenants, consideration will be given to extending this measure to current tenants, although the elderly and those who are significantly disabled would not go on to reviewable tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228659720d592e48cf9ab6ed7457ba2804\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Government plan to grow the third sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b186a107c4a4460983740a6a3647daae\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We will be working with providers in the community housing sector over the coming months to find the best ways to address the current constraints that challenge their growth. We know that those providers can successfully provide housing. They are ready, willing, and able, and we are ready, willing, and able to help them. These providers can leverage funding and assets from a broad range of sources. They have wide skills, often specialise, and offer extra services, and they are often more competitive and innovative when it comes to house design and production. We want to support them and we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b2e56f4a524a96b0db4bd84b22f3c1\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: If he is prepared to exempt pensioners from any reviewable tenancies regardless of their means, will he also exempt families with young children who attend local schools, given the negative impacts disruption can have on educational achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69c219c656340ee848f1d0d53a463fc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We have said that any new tenants coming in from 1 July next year will be on reviewable tenancies. We are saying that in terms of current tenants going on to reviewable tenancies, the elderly and seriously disabled can expect not to have to go on to reviewable tenancies. In terms of families, they will go on reviewable tenancies but, of course, they may need to remain in their State home if their need persists. If their circumstances improve, then clearly they will move out of State housing and into community housing or private housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002280ca21acfe254fb0a6738903c32c7304\u0022\u003EEarthquake, Canterbury\u2014Support for Business Recovery Package\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002209dbe27d5eb94a338fcce4efe7e0a401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209dbe27d5eb94a338fcce4efe7e0a401\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery: Is the Government\u2019s response package, announced last week to assist Canterbury businesses affected by the 4 September earthquake, universally supported by the Government and its supporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf033ce7532144f394ae689c090c3ba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf033ce7532144f394ae689c090c3ba9\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery):\u003C/span\u003E The member will be aware that this Government has a vast number of supporters, and, as one of its own members pointed out today, some of those supporters do have occasional disagreements with the Government. So I would not presume to speak on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4bf761465b465886565c17eec803af\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the $600,000 package the Minister announced is mostly the salaries of 2.5 business mentors, with just $100,000 in cash to promote struggling Canterbury businesses, does he truly believe that that is anywhere near sufficient when hundreds of small and medium sized enterprises in Canterbury have since the quake seen turnover drop by half or more, and are shedding staff or going to the wall as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7fd9e75cfe14f94890fdd6b864ac2b2\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses in Canterbury that have adjusted to these conditions and that are thriving. I am aware of a number of businesses that do have difficulties. In the end, it is getting customers through their door that will make the biggest difference to them in the long term, and that is what this package at this point is focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd8dc2f1fba4712b32d448fa81b8ce7\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the very modest bids for funding to assist business recovery totalling $4.1 million from the Canterbury Employers Chamber of Commerce and Enterprise North Canterbury were turned down by the Government for fear of creating a \u201Cprecedent\u201D, and, on that basis, what support could businesses in Wellington, Auckland, or any other New Zealand centre expect if they were similarly devastated by a once-in-750-years natural disaster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2ef82890884b98a3826fbbe9dcfd70\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government spends hundreds of millions of dollars a year supporting sectors in the New Zealand economy. Many of those sectors have businesses that are affected in this way. It is getting customers through the door that is the most important thing for those businesses, and that is what we are focusing on. As for the package that was requested by the chamber of commerce and by the people out at Kaiapoi, all I can say is that no criteria for the way that that money might have been spent were provided to the Government with satisfactory answers about what it might achieve. So, yes, it was declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e07fb0bad36446a9eaa446196fa09ab\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from the Earthquake Commission and insurance company payouts, the premiums for which, of course, are paid for by householders or companies themselves, how does the Government funding provided to workers and businesses affected by the force 7.1 earthquake compare with drought, flood, or biosecurity funding, or Auckland\u2019s roading infrastructure, given the scale of destruction and loss suffered by businesses and workers in Canterbury as a result of the earthquake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d5ed5c6a7854231aea9a906f7d33fe8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The first point I will make is that the recovery from the Canterbury earthquake will take a very long time. The Government will need to make available various types of assistance as the next couple of years progress. I can say to the member that we think the best thing that can happen for businesses in Canterbury is to get customers through their doors. That is what this package is designed to do. We have also been informed that that package, particularly the promotional side, can be leveraged, and we have had offers through media organisations to do that, meaning that the value will be a great deal more. This is a unique situation. There are many, many needs that will need to be met, and the Government is, if you like, triaging exactly where that support should go and at what time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209164919052a4755924ad10e7866d0f4\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Will he accept my invitation to attend the next round of public information meetings that I will be organising for earthquake-affected\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765f450b7f144bedaad423be5bff8dee\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a9e2456b7d649ed9d61578227af8609\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The member might not be interested, but the people of Canterbury are. Will the Minister accept my\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597db1f949b3449da2b7c1b180ddd84e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the level of interjection was not that great. The member should just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd11642b50e94e59a456621674c9109b\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: This is a serious issue. Will he accept\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224457d6a4be54577ac1a1691712083af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb1f16d5a6d498fb0380e8c4ffdf40c\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Will he accept my invitation to attend the next round of public information meetings that I will be organising for earthquake-affected residents, so that he can provide detailed answers to the people, for instance, of Kaiapoi, who are feeling increasingly frustrated with the lack of information from the Government, and who, along with other residents of Canterbury, have repeatedly asked him to front up and answer their questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5667893c8a54c18bc9a08fb311d10e3\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I totally reject any suggestion that I have not fronted up, or have shown any reluctance to answer questions. What I am not interested in dealing with is some of the silly speculation that goes on from people who perhaps have not read all the information that is available at the present time. I say to the member that in the new year I will consider running meetings myself to give that information. What I would also say, as someone who is personally affected by this, is that I think the communications at this point, given the complexity of the problem, have been perfectly adequate, and rarking people up unnecessarily does not help them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233dc90458c9c4a79bd8056b0588a0cd4\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that for many earthquake-affected residents who have been forced from their homes, their private insurance cover for temporary accommodation lasts only 6 to 12 months; if so, what extension to its response package is the Government considering to assist these earthquake victims when this temporary accommodation assistance runs out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92f392ab7804e39ada58ee0eee95e21\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very real and serious problem that the Government has a team working on. I have myself had discussions this week with the Insurance Council about how we might give effect to sorting out that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228297c920f27b41e4935fd1a460809166\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms\u2014Focus\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u00225c953bbb424049ddaba463ac0886f0cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c953bbb424049ddaba463ac0886f0cd\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she agree with the Alternative Welfare Working Group that welfare reform should be focused on \u201Cthe relentless pursuit of well-being\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002225ec990b6a7848b2babac431a10dd8af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ec990b6a7848b2babac431a10dd8af\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E That is a very idealistic goal. This Government takes a more pragmatic view, preferring to concentrate on an unrelenting focus on work. I note that the member had her policies written down in a song \u201CThe Twelve Days of Christmas\u201D. I hope the House gets an opportunity to hear some of that today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d189de9d6a476d87e5941d1ef21dbc\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to disappoint. Will she commit to meeting the members of the Alternative Welfare Working Group to discuss their findings; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a8704cff4b452b8464adce2b195b99\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I see them as submitters to the Welfare Working Group. They have an opportunity to submit to that group. I think that is the right process for them to go through, and I look forward to recommendations coming from the Welfare Working Group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea77726b44b43ec917a08ee1cc42a3f\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Alternative Welfare Working Group that the current emphasis on paid work is too narrow and treats caring for children as inferior, secondary, and unimportant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfe928d51b04fe5848c2c0f830b6acc\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think we all agree that children are at the centre of what this Government sees as social development and social policy. Hence when we talk about child poverty and those people who are on benefits for long periods of time, it is children who are most disadvantaged. Our focus is on getting those people into work, giving them the skills to get there, and helping them in any way we can in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022284eb4be9ec74123b0e2a581737622d8\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government accept that raising children is work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be41bb8db9d34d61a224370ade988455\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It can be hard work at times; it can also be incredibly pleasurable and something that most people aspire to and enjoy doing. I hope that the member\u2019s co-leader enjoys his experience in the next few months, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f31f924705e4f14bf2998786871b487\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Why should single mothers be required to work in minimum wage jobs instead of caring for their children when middle-class mothers can choose to stay at home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fc54432bcf4de0bdc7413e7bb1d75e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Of partnered women, 68 percent are in paid work at this time; and, of sole parents, approximately 52 percent are in paid work. I do not discern a difference between sole parents and those who are in partnerships. Some mothers choose to work and some mothers do not, and that is a matter for those women whether or not they are partnered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14024c2c23a4a559c6826d76db880a9\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked why single mothers should be required to work, instead of being able to stay at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229493ddc4dcb1432c848d291663b03437\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister responded. It was not perhaps exactly the answer that the member expected, but I think it was a reasonable answer to the question asked. The Minister explained the situation that partnered women are working in paid work rather more than women who are not partnered. I think it was a reasonably interesting answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b48585f80d04432b5012b4a2078761b\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that accessing education while caring for children is a good way for parents on the domestic purposes benefit to prepare to move into work; if so, will she consider reintroducing a form of training incentive allowance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b93db430be4bfb84a61570cb41baff\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: There is extra assistance for those who are on the domestic purposes benefit and in study at the moment. There is an extra $500 loan that they can take. There is a lot of assistance for those people now. Certainly at this time the Government feels that that is enough, but we look forward to seeing recommendations from the Welfare Working Group. As such, we will not be pre-empting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe57c1d77b343feb7e51fd7da7c0b30\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Should every child have access to the essentials this Christmas regardless of whether their parents rely on a benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225367592a1c9948e5bae9eb7153d9c634\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is certainly what New Zealand stands for and certainly what this Government stands for as well. Those children should be cared for and looked after. I believe that our policies and what we put in place to support them does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225990747faad74e20ae9d32c6256cc1f3\u0022\u003EEnergy Strategy\u2014Lignite Mining\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022adf2292ed69b44e888c08e9aa0626e71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adf2292ed69b44e888c08e9aa0626e71\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Will the mining of lignite form part of his New Zealand Energy Strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002213215939ba1f4f89bc3fb5545d2ecbf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213215939ba1f4f89bc3fb5545d2ecbf5\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Not specifically. However, one of the goals or areas of focus that are outlined in the Energy Strategy is the development of New Zealand\u2019s oil and petroleum mineral fuel resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3a80967d3544adf9d24c36468027479\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the report released by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment today states that one large lignite-to-diesel plant, similar to that proposed by L and M Mining in Southland, would increase New Zealand\u2019s carbon dioxide emissions by 7 percent; if so, how does that fit into his draft energy strategy goal of lowering greenhouse gas emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fac0db52b4f4bdf8b4cc54f7f62b325\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That is a separate report. It has nothing to do with the Energy Strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ebd6027fdc64d3294d77ba235947fff\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Who will pay for the $137 million a year that such an increase in emissions will cost\u2014New Zealand, L and M Mining, or the taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c784561d314076876648f063d4a34b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The member should well know that that cost would fall on the business operator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dbb3615ae6a46f1b7c9cf5c2279f98d\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: If the use of 10 million tonnes of lignite to produce diesel would cost $137 million a year in emissions, what would be the cost of using 6.3 billion tonnes of lignite, which he told the distinguished fellows forum of the Centre for Advanced Engineering was technically and economically recoverable in Southland and was a cost he thought worth paying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5cbcc7861ed40d8a2edd7f518b13b73\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: A much bigger number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1c6aed21f8d4770af79cd3d4e9320ef\u0022\u003EEducation, Student Achievement\u2014Programme for International Student Assessment Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd89aa080f4e4fd2b05a0423be3519a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd89aa080f4e4fd2b05a0423be3519a4\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What were the results of the Programme for International Assessment (PISA), which looked at New Zealand students\u2019 achievement in reading, maths, and scientific literacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb832132272f465d8c82e7675f4f9050\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb832132272f465d8c82e7675f4f9050\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The latest Programme for International Student Assessment results show that our top-performing students are up amongst the best in the world, and we should be proud of that. However, New Zealand continues to have a disproportionate number of lower achievers. In fact, of the top-performing countries in reading literacy, which was the main focus for the Programme for International Student Assessment in 2010, New Zealand has the largest range of student scores between the top and the bottom 5 percent of students. And New Zealand has the largest range of scores in the middle range\u2014that is between the top and bottom\u2014at 25 percent. In addition, there has been no significant change in our students\u2019 performance in reading for the last 10 years or in maths for the past 6 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220816498482e84788ac42931ce1be51b0\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to address the findings of the Programme for International Student Assessment in 2009?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c51684caefd486da14c2c85ac2180ea\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: In the modern world we cannot allow any of our students to be left behind. National standards in reading, writing, and maths will give us the information that we need to address underachievement as early as possible with timely and targeted interventions. To further strengthen work that is already under way, the Ministry of Education will take a much more direct, front-line focus on supporting schools to lift student achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251d13f2ddce5443d9f27140ff0a17bef\u0022\u003EMotor Vehicle Information\u2014Response to Charges to Web-based Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00224667a87208974cd3bde942eb4b67ef26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224667a87208974cd3bde942eb4b67ef26\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: How many emails has he received on the decision of the New Zealand Transport Agency to start charging CarJam and similar web-based information services for accessing the agency\u2019s stored basic motor vehicle information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9d15085eb440998bf1b781e52f2020\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask front-bench members to please stop this interjection. It was difficult for me to hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c495a4d6edd04b2db2bd4632ccfe6fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c495a4d6edd04b2db2bd4632ccfe6fac\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Following CarJam emailing its customer database and posting a message on the front page of its website, which apparently has about 150,000 subscribers per month, my office has received about 4,500 form emails on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258cb134527a74115978a538561d0eae6\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that free website access to a motor vehicle\u2019s history is a cheap and effective way of keeping dodgy and potentially dangerous vehicles off our roads; if so, what does he say to those 20,000 people who have signed the online petition protesting his decision to claw back a few dollars in the name of user-pays?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a79357f3a104d2ebb07287e10132465\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: That question is wrong in its assumptions on so many levels. Let me just deal with a couple. Firstly, in most cases the charges for accessing that information have been reduced. Secondly, the changes that the New Zealand Transport Agency has made will reduce the total revenue received from providing the service. Thirdly, the business model of the websites\u2014to access the one or two items that have previously been free, to give that away free, and then to charge significant sums of money for more detailed reports\u2014has led to massive increases in the amount of data. That means that the New Zealand Transport Agency has had to charge for some of that data. Finally, all this is the reality of having a very old motor vehicles register that is unable to provide the information easily to users. That has happened because the previous Government, over 9 years, never spent the money to update the motor vehicles register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75dfb13765146eba81fc5fcee9f66a4\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: By applying the user-pays model to motor vehicle registration information\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5fab389b604875bd916ca07392d1f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. I say to her colleagues sitting on the bench in front of her that when they interject it is difficult for me to hear her question. What is more, it is discourteous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea1d26180d5d49a5a71b8aa5805be03e\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: By applying the user-pays model to motor vehicle registration information, is the Government telling us that dodgy practices\u2014such as clocking odometers, patching up written-off vehicles, flicking off stolen vehicles on TradeMe, or onselling repossessed cars that have money still owing\u2014have all mysteriously ceased to be a problem in the used-car market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abe692a311f443fa929f253d064f82f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I point out again for the member that the previous Government operated this same user-pays model. In fact, the New Zealand Transport Agency is collecting less revenue now than it was previously. The transactions the member refers to are 16c for an instant transaction and 2c for an overnight transaction\u20142c. It could, of course, be 2c for all transactions if the previous Government had got around to updating the motor vehicles register. In that Government\u2019s 9 years in office it absolutely neglected core business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c20c5d1cad34f4bb3e35af0a993bddc\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the New Zealand Transport Agency have the marketing slogan \u201CBuilding a better transport system for New Zealanders\u201D while at the same time reduce access to the information that helps make our national fleet safer, and also make it more difficult for already hard-pressed families to make the best decision when purchasing a vehicle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8caea99362047c3a63415eeadd21aea\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member has not been listening to the answers to any of the previous questions. Sadly, if the previous Government had adopted an approach of making sure that Government business ran properly and had taken a responsible approach to renewing infrastructure, we would not be in the position of having to charge 16c for instant transactions; we would be able to charge 2c for the lot. In fact, the New Zealand Transport Agency is lowering the amount of revenue it is receiving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b797898df43e47339c65d53d6e8048ee\u0022\u003EBovine Tuberculosis\u2014Management Plan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab16769bc1d642f9a466f08f6e9a2410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab16769bc1d642f9a466f08f6e9a2410\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What recent steps has the Government taken to control bovine TB?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002247ea519f188041739ede5f86c66032aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ea519f188041739ede5f86c66032aa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this week I was pleased to confirm that the Government would commit $30 million annually, for the next 5 years, to manage bovine tuberculosis. This ensures that the good work of the national pest management strategy will continue and that we can make significant progress in controlling this damaging disease. Failure to do that places at risk our trade access to many valuable offshore markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216485e9cffff4d2782fe3ae34fc2cc57\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What support is the primary sector providing to control bovine tuberculosis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be1f0a232504d9cbcd2f2b57981dc4a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Bovine Tuberculosis National Pest Management Strategy is a true industry - Government partnership. On top of the $30 million annual contribution from the Crown the beef, dairy, and deer industries commit $45 million, and regional councils around $7 million. In total, $82 million is available each year to fund what is the world-leading tuberculosis management programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9220ea69a7a423b8a4bbee99a8aff26\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education, Limited-attendance Centres\u2014Minister Responsible for Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221c60f3ce2d404665a9d4c723c9ff1b4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c60f3ce2d404665a9d4c723c9ff1b4c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Which Minister is to be responsible for the enforcement of the Education Act 1989 in relation to limited-attendance early childhood centres following the passing of the Education Amendment Bill (No 2)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002268304137331a4312aeeaf9f349bc25ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268304137331a4312aeeaf9f349bc25ec\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Education and the Minister for Tertiary Education are responsible for the Education Act 1989. Gym and shopping mall creches will not come under the Education Act, because they are not providers of education. These types of facilities will come under a wide range of requirements, including the Health and Safety in Employment Act, the Building Act, and the contractual obligations that they will have with parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223491b09867f04b12bad74cd253228bec\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When she suggested that the Health and Safety in Employment Act could be used for protection from the paedophiles who will no longer be subject to police vetting before being employed to care for children at limited-attendance centres after her bill is passed, was she indicating that she thought fellow employees were in danger from those paedophiles, rather than the children they were caring for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0df8ccbb8248ffaf373e399bb46bd9\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but that question was so convoluted that I did not understand it. Could I ask the member to repeat it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7fff3361bd47188a0fbed0e993297d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b28567724d4827b44d9e9109170534\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When she suggested that the Health and Safety in Employment Act could be used for protection from the paedophiles who will no longer be subject to police vetting before being employed to care for children at limited-attendance centres after her bill is passed, was she indicating that she thought fellow employees were in danger from those paedophiles, under that Act, rather than the children they were caring for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415f272eaac94c68938eab559c5f8f2b\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Health and Safety in Employment Act requires that all practicable steps are taken to ensure that no action or inaction of any employee harms another person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97674953e0c4ef4809f1ed5a464546e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When she said scout and guide leaders were not subject to police checks, was she aware that it is the policy of the national organisations for both scouts and guides that all those who supervise children are subject to police checks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2efb3c52a8457eae69b9feddd454d3\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and that is the point: legislation does not require it. But the obligations that those organisations have to the parents who entrust them with their children mean that in order to protect themselves and the children, they voluntarily make sure that anyone who is working with children undergoes a police check. Many parents insist on that before they make the decision to leave their children with those groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272985e84480d411ea9b3d60b6279f9b8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that there are no national organisations, such as there are for scouts and guides, covering childcare centres at gyms, shopping malls, or swimming pools that could impose a policy to ensure that police checks are carried out on any staff who will be supervising children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef39cbf3818e46e8a066b1c0d72e8d37\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. But a large number of organisations that work with a variety of children are in the process of developing some guidelines now, and will continue to develop guidelines as parents make the decision themselves to entrust their children to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203c1e7cde564d58be0321f9370e19cb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is she sure that she is doing the right thing in removing the primary protection against children being exposed to known paedophiles in limited-attendance early childhood centres?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4353eadf03c4990bc83807fdccfee51\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what I am doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235b478faa3074580824ed9fe44323ead\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister, 8 December\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225782eb2f5af84c7eb3dac0b994902172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225782eb2f5af84c7eb3dac0b994902172\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table this photo of Vera Wilson, taken today by her son Murray, as she was being forced to leave her home in Taihape and move to Feilding, to be separated for the first time in her marriage from her husband by a locked door\u2014the face of health cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f5862947b5410caf8b0c903b06d034\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last comment was not helpful. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfddac02a45b451892467ce8ad3f9e3b\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022299e2198594748ff9261eda250ca3313\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c6e0627ffd49aabc315d03fbfdc0b7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Student Loan Scheme Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00228398b7a33b4740debd19fe8c30e75532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228398b7a33b4740debd19fe8c30e75532\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Ten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd2046fa9d6c440cb6fb569184ac5230\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fa37ecd9874e17986604098ed90f27\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee: How many submitters on the Student Loan Scheme Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00225a262ee1d3f74054915a2d686aa9b1c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a262ee1d3f74054915a2d686aa9b1c2\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Those are matters for the committee. The committee is yet to discuss those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297784c54df494996b9bf02be66562f70\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: When will the committee consider whether all those who have sought to be heard in person will be allowed to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5a0f46aa1e045ae9721b850da106d8d\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter of committee business, until such time as the committee discusses those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4c876e06599416297a3da9f45ec750d\u0022\u003ESustainable Biofuel Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908050b0f08c418492ef2fbf1cbf8627\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Sustainable Biofuel Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac95589e535a4841bdbd65eed229ec54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac95589e535a4841bdbd65eed229ec54\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Twenty-eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d749f7c1b58b432f911b53bf7425d3ae\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How many submissions were received after the due date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ecca847bb947e29f1e598c7a1beb5e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that information with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212dd04f4d4cb4eac86658953472676ca\u0022\u003ESustainable Biofuel Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8bd93dc87943d6aafa69274dfaa3ab\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: How many submitters on the Sustainable Biofuel Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00224eea12dce99c4a7a9a515612804d1e9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eea12dce99c4a7a9a515612804d1e9d\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Ten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f60b596d34f45a6904ad128c2d405ba\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was every submitter who requested to be heard in person given that opportunity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baaff0ab3fa944c18506d67ffd4314ac\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. All were heard in person in Wellington on 22 and 29 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225497b70df7804db0ab079c15fde52ed0\u0022\u003ESouthland District Council (Stewart Island/Rakiura Visitor Levy) Empowering Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf0d6a4b1254cd49767b1d0830efbed\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Southland District Council (Stewart Island/Rakiura Visitor Levy) Empowering Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7ea870b225a4e01be33eb0afd388e21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7ea870b225a4e01be33eb0afd388e21\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Twenty-two submissions have been received on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a38f539c37c4f0f82f65c85b3484c69\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How many submissions were received after the due date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221fc4d24587e4d34b0a52e11ed2baae5\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: None, so far. We have one that has asked to be received, and permission has been granted. That submission is due by the end of this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022429a813889ed4b4982cbe69e554757c7\u0022\u003ESouthland District Council (Stewart Island/Rakiura Visitor Levy) Empowering Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2695af2cf94da7abcef5f3ac15cf38\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: How many submitters on the Southland District Council (Stewart Island/ Rakiura Visitor Levy) Empowering Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022439d3e44e4284cde95b0470ba06a88f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022439d3e44e4284cde95b0470ba06a88f0\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E In direct response to the question and its mispronunciation, none. But we have had six submitters requesting to be heard on the \u201CRaki-ur-a\u201D bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fe32ad36d1462bb27439b9b83db44a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How much time has the select committee set aside to hear those submissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356067c4f15b4d75959ae6f5636838f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is the committee\u2019s business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3e1ed1ad8a442948d2ca27d80f5ea38\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000219\u0022\u003EQuestion postponed. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eed32cf1fd1f4d42889724721eb42d8f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000221\u0022\u003EQuestion postponed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4f86305b8f94894921781f4cb111445\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000223\u0022\u003EQuestion postponed. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248101b2a8ae941cda7a660c481020caa\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10 to Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000225\u0022\u003EQuestion postponed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221063fc1cd71e4277b01a382831f06015\u0022\u003ERetirement Commissioner\u20142009-10 Financial Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ccb90a6fab45faabdb84bf920ec19b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee: Has the Finance and Expenditure Committee conducted the 2009-10 financial review of the Office of the Retirement Commissioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002225c92852a3ed4dbf9a69e5775a4a5604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225c92852a3ed4dbf9a69e5775a4a5604\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277eb4faf193841b6be055c2ad00d1b4a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Finance and Expenditure Committee decided to call back the Retirement Commissioner for further discussion on her report on securing superannuation, given that her early appearance was unfortunately scheduled just days before the report was tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da25a40ab2ea41b69cbd0ae62cdd5626\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: How the committee conducts its business and chooses to progress its work is a matter for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0c8045062f4daa84747794371175bd\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The matter of whether the committee has timetabled a repeat appearance by the Retirement Commissioner is a matter that is well within the ambit of the chairperson being able to answer in the House. He is simply dodging the question by saying it is a matter of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d67cbceece4b52adc2ff64751af2d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member asked a wider question than just that, and the chair of the committee focused on another part of the question the member asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b358690cece42c5a1ffbca59879d48e\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457f7075061a4b80855e69ab86e2ad9e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00223c3847765a374dc892eaa511e1ef5ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c3847765a374dc892eaa511e1ef5ec4\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Twenty-eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878fb99334fc4822b633c18f484756a3\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that the chairs of committees are under instruction to be as brief as possible, but if the chairs, when they are given the call by you, begin their answer before their microphones have been switched on, we cannot hear the answer. I could not hear the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I have no idea how many submissions he said there had been. Some of the members seeking the call are obscure and the technicians do not know where they sit, so we have to wait till the microphones are on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faae894167764ac7b3d7cd855d7143b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Interestingly, the Speaker often has difficulty hearing things in this House, but he had no trouble hearing that answer. It was 28.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022230f697823524fab9c533d048f27d453\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: When was the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill first introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7832eee49944b79a6fd3ddee077bfd5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The chair of the committee has no responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7a74cccc22443b992f242a879ed272d\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E13. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fdf8fe0079b42c798b1b365ef3c2499\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee: How many submitters on the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00221d3fb4a8ba4b4f9aa68b9811cce13472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d3fb4a8ba4b4f9aa68b9811cce13472\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Six.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022427dc5bafb1849b790cb98cc94871578\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill be reported back to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9fb0c68b503455ea2dc6af41ee58d6e\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The report-back date for the bill is 24 December 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022810933e17ecb49b6b0387374efdc735c\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Road Safety and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E14. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2d9d5693c248c7868bcc25d7190f74\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Land Transport (Road Safety and Other Matters) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00226c552cdbd32d4770a3399d2a591db5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c552cdbd32d4770a3399d2a591db5a1\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Eighty-five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240481ab26bc143609e2bd92775ecddf4\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: How many of those submissions supported the immediate lowering of the adult blood-alcohol concentration to 0.5\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587474769923447cab1a553e380054e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The chairperson of the committee has no responsibility for that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b66a4561b0934d4bbf788fe2680f6b9a\u0022\u003ELawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E15. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e055d642014548bc63de3002105843\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00223344fd869f6747028c649cc0f8f07722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223344fd869f6747028c649cc0f8f07722\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The committee has received six submissions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9f28663bd247da9b46f57c2ee781ba\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I could not hear him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261cd375b6219431cb6fb9c0ba996f398\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, the answer was that there were six submissions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a297bba4a4754b779c14f072de62704f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his answer that only six submissions have been received on that bill, is it the committee\u2019s intention to call for further submissions in order to make sure that a wide spread of public opinion is received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4799b2b165435a87c586fd1d062b17\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022266415b1229e4a05b7abb18fd5e712c3\u0022\u003ELawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E16. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af257f328f2243d89ed622e0c485b8f7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submitters on the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00221eddc8cb75e44ec5bc8c18c26e94703a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eddc8cb75e44ec5bc8c18c26e94703a\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E All six submitters asked to be heard, all of whom have appeared or have been scheduled for hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6524069f324155943e6ee36a4f462b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the intention of the committee, in order to make sure that the evidence is robust and covers all matters, to call back any of those submitters for further submission or elucidation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46e8f4af3704d2cb58df15e5b8cd699\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0444131fc7841c4a096ed2517b7014e\u0022\u003ELegal Services Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E17. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c0e1bb629ab4bb3bf70ff54446e91dd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Legal Services Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00220a182049692b46fc83a489347ebd651c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a182049692b46fc83a489347ebd651c\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E We have received 26 submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228077417f78534fba8c0f28d5f8184036\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that only 26 submissions have been received on the Legal Services Bill, and of the importance of the legislation, is it the committee\u2019s intention to call for further submissions to make sure there is a widespread understanding of the importance of the bill for committee members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bfd99dea0954b3fb5cd297b26e6080c\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: A widespread range of submissions has been received by the committee, and we do not intend to seek further submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eecce1bd4cad4c47aa02680a8fd4222f\u0022\u003ELegal Services Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E18. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139644865a72417a9fb68b2b81b6e458\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submitters on the Legal Services Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5fe8958d3d54b2fb3b813a75ab58f5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5fe8958d3d54b2fb3b813a75ab58f5a\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thirteen submitters asked to appear in support of their submissions, all of whom have already appeared in order to give evidence. The committee deliberated on the bill today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022009ea4ab845741cc890692f39013dab8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is the chair satisfied that it was not appropriate to call for further people to be heard on the bill, in order to better improve the committee\u2019s understanding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6f6d311e6a42c489a7260f17ac4fbe\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I am more than satisfied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b88657f5bda41f3b8a9967410f92a65\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022aee2a427446d4f85a2d2ef74680b785a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aee2a427446d4f85a2d2ef74680b785a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of my learned colleague\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221721c55ff42843628891d25537f960d1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Esteemed!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd1d3cf6d7a4477b8aac449a3f94d58\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, esteemed is not a word that is used\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77f7dbccd764e89a70feb0dd90f06be\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E19. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9313b80ae27413ea03b985dfd97f76c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00223aa049a7a71a4894b15917389e35cd08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223aa049a7a71a4894b15917389e35cd08\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The committee received 233 submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f11950a88034f34b4b04e0861d0e75f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that only just over 200 submissions have been received on this very important bill, is it the intention of the committee to re-advertise to make sure more people are aware of that important bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9cdc2a4b3a24f4d88a09f30d7d7192b\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: No, as the importance of the bill has been mitigated by the introduction of an excellent bill by the Government and the Minister of Justice, Simon Power, which is open to submissions at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bbc9f2cab484e5cbdfdb35e7fa94c95\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E20. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f59f02c6f14cdda94b019edabf913d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee: How many submitters on the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00221cfc72a9cec8498bb95a07b66ca085a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cfc72a9cec8498bb95a07b66ca085a7\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (Chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee):\u003C/span\u003E One hundred and two submitters asked to be heard. The committee heard from 79 before putting consideration of the bill on hold, to await the publication of the Law Commission\u2019s report earlier this year. It has now been overtaken by events with the introduction of the new bill. Submissions are open until 18 February, and we expect an overwhelming response from the public to submit on this fine piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f82d35aa2f460c98c11c8a2acf0d1c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the intention of the committee to write to the submitters who have not been heard, inviting them to make a submission on the subsequent legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b629edc3d694b9d9d708eea18df5f44\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: No, because submitters who responded not only to the first bill but to the Law Commission\u2019s report, who numbered 3,000, are well aware of events\u2014the new bill that is before the committee\u2014and have made public their intention to submit on that fine piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab4d0694ff4e486199fb579a3e73a9aa\u0022\u003EFood Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E21. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d79a55cbbd4e21a8541c46c3082dc9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Food Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022 data-id=\u002225ade72804634522a0a4d32953cfe11d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ade72804634522a0a4d32953cfe11d\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Sixty-seven submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b4f17648654b68903b012e69b16691\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How many submissions were received after the submission due date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e78590774c1483899be60645694a5fb\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No submissions were received after the due date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c007c746fa34bdeb18b36ea1ddd0b55\u0022\u003EFood Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E22. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224253b82b432a478ba92fb907ef6c79ab\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee: How many submitters on the Food Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022 data-id=\u002257f5c0912573471480836a64d6e4bd85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257f5c0912573471480836a64d6e4bd85\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Twenty-four submitters requested to be heard, and were heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e64c7fdb04e4d7b8af7417b378056b1\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: When will the bill be reported back to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2348cff5cf49b3980842f2b6e5ef4a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Presumably on the next sitting day, as the bill was deliberated on today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002253b288234ea642bab04f557c8e510c6c\u0022\u003EDairy Industry Restructuring (New Sunset Provisions) Amendment Bill\u2014Submissions Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E23. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1fcd0e68a294aa9892016d8223d0b8f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee: How many submissions have been received on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (New Sunset Provisions) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee2e295b286407f982ea749f9389273\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee2e295b286407f982ea749f9389273\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thirteen submissions were received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224db95b18ef6d4ca1a4a662de5ee90349\u0022\u003EDairy Industry Restructuring (New Sunset Provisions) Amendment Bill\u2014Requests for Oral Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E24. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5761389a474b158dbd51e57195de89\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee: How many submitters on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (New Sunset Provisions) Amendment Bill have requested to be heard in person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa547a42892441d3b799160febbdf776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a0b803a2-4e10-4f5c-ba9d-c2cae484e647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa547a42892441d3b799160febbdf776\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Eight submitters requested to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fabb4767e184d03bdd49dba706e3e49\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: When will this bill be reported back to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226800b8b01a3f442b98a163b9f8e8e36f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That matter is still before the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c51d78c391ee49b3b18bcb2ed79f6233\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279f241c98f2f498180a889b5d0048690\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4a09e3b589849daaf55f502166ac1e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4a09e3b589849daaf55f502166ac1e1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the first reading of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill; the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill; the first readings of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill, the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), and the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill; the passing through its remaining stages of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill; the first readings of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill and the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill; the second reading of the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill; and the passing through their remaining stages of the State Sector Management Bill, the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), and the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, and of any bills into which any of those bills may be divided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI spoke a bit over an hour ago in my Leader of the House update to the House on where we are going next week, and the reality is that as we come to the end of the year the Government has a great deal of work that it needs to do to get legislation either sent to select committees or completed, in order that we may have orderly progress in the way Government departments administer themselves beyond the new year. We are about to go into a long adjournment, and when we come back we have the Prime Minister\u2019s statement and the attendant debate that goes with it, meaning that the amount of time available in February is also somewhat limited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis Government does not shirk from the job it has to do of leading New Zealand, and that job requires us to pass legislation. It is extraordinary that parties in this House are upset about spending more time in this Chamber. For those reasons, I am happy to move the motion as I have just read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227acba77726b84839a59e09eb236bbdf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227acba77726b84839a59e09eb236bbdf1\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is about the instruction that is given to the House for bills to be considered under urgency. Once we have voted on the motion that has been moved, is it possible for the Government to add any other bills for consideration under urgency, or it will cover just the bills that have been read out by the Leader of the House just now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a711dfce01a4cd0a3d562ec15427da8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The advice I have received is that bills cannot be added unless the urgency concludes before the House rises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002214e06608dff343fcaefeb3cc59a3f29e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214e06608dff343fcaefeb3cc59a3f29e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. For absolute clarity, I say that if the Government attempts to include a bill that was not on the list read out by the Leader of the House, it would be out of order for us to consider that bill. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b5db0e65c524248803b8b492f911e9a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: While under this urgency the list should be the list that the Leader of the House read out. That is my understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022507abda0563d4f1588977cf4c6e98c04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507abda0563d4f1588977cf4c6e98c04\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E It may help if I table the list for clarity\u2014[Interruption] Perhaps I could read it again\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34d33a275bd4fecb315c6bfd5fb6efd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b42ec0c76634ebcad14ef49b1c32d8c\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There was quite a lot of interjection across the House, and I am quite convinced that the list I have read out is the list of bills that we wish to pass. I suspect the Opposition believes that I have left something off the list. Of course, in the end it is the Government\u2019s list that we work through. If I have left something off, which I do not believe I have, clearly the Opposition\u2019s eagerness to go into urgency would facilitate our passing it. But I am satisfied that the list that I read out is the list that we want to work through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d22af3ef2b431887a12160e8144b1d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To ensure that the House is aware of what it is doing as it takes this vote, can I be certain that the first reading of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill was actually read out? It may have been mispronounced. I would like to make sure that the House is aware of the bill. Today plenty of people have mispronounced words in this House. All members are aware of that and it is an easy thing to do when reading out a long list. I think I should make sure the House is aware of what it is voting on, because the House is about to vote on the motion. As I understand it, the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is on the list that the House is voting on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2963cb5db4466c9b983fab60165463\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. I read out the first readings of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill and the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255455281e084779abb33a945f2e43b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: For the sake of clarity, I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269501d256db94bd1a6c19d5ad93063a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022690804e008a0482698bf4219cc12582b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f55ab7567304bcba257030745279043\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022261a3c0311804a54b86d67b5dce7d513\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022261a3c0311804a54b86d67b5dce7d513\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service: I move, That the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Intelligence and Security Committee, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 187 and 190(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis bill focuses on amendments that will allow the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service to operate more effectively. It has three objectives. First, the provisions will maintain the operational effectiveness of the Security Intelligence Service by updating the warrant scheme to continue to allow for the use of modern technical methods of surveillance. Secondly, the provisions will maintain protections for those acting under warrant, including those exercising entry powers. Thirdly, the provisions will also improve operational efficiency by allowing a more flexible process for persons assisting under warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe principal Act currently enables the Director of Security to apply for warrants to undertake certain surveillance activities. Surveillance activities encroach on personal privacy rights. As such, surveillance of this nature is not lightly authorised. Foreign warrants require the Prime Minister\u2019s authorisation. In cases where any New Zealander is the subject of a warrant, such warrants are required by the principal Act to be issued jointly by the Minister in charge of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and by the Commissioner of Security Warrants. The warrants framework provides for the interception or seizure of documents, communications, and other things that could not otherwise be lawfully obtained by the Security Intelligence Service. The warrants also provide the powers that are necessary to give effect to the authorised interception or seizure, such as entry powers and search powers. Stringent conditions must be met before any warrant is issued. The Director of Security must demonstrate both to the Minister in charge of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and to the commissioner, in the case of domestic warrants, that the interception or seizure is necessary, either to detect activities prejudicial to security or to gather foreign intelligence information essential to security. Additionally, the value of the information must justify the interception or seizure, and the director must attest that the information being sought is unlikely to be obtained by any other means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENotably, the proposals in the bill are restricted to powers that are subject to authorisation under warrant. As I have explained, the threshold to be met to issue these warrants is very high. The bill should not be seen as providing the service with unique powers; it should be seen as a bill that seeks to clarify and update the application of existing powers, particularly in areas where current legislation has been overtaken by developments in technology. The current warrant framework in the principal Act has become outdated. It addresses only those activities that would otherwise have been lawful at the time that the provisions were enacted, which in 1977 was interception and seizure, and in 1999 was entry. The underlying premise of the framework is that activities that were lawful at the time that the legislation was developed did not need authorisation by warrant, regardless of the extent of intrusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EChanges in technology have also had an impact. In particular, the frameworks are not expressly configured to support the use of electronic tracking and some computer-based techniques used to collect information. The first change covers electronic tracking devices. The current Act does not expressly provide for the Security Intelligence Service to undertake the tracking of subjects by electronic means, so the bill will clarify that the warrant framework does cover the use of electronic tracking devices. Clauses 6 and 7 amend sections 4A and 4B of the principal Act to enable the Minister and the Commissioner of Security Warrants, in the case of domestic intelligence warrants, to issue intelligence warrants that authorise electronic tracking. The existing oversights scheme will be applied to these electronic tracking activities. The process of applying for warrants to authorise electronic tracking will be the same as that for warrants covering interception or seizure. So high thresholds, including tests of necessity and value and that the information cannot be obtained by other means, will need to be satisfied before any warrant can be issued. The House should note that the needs of New Zealand law enforcement agencies have previously been catered for in this area with the development of a tracking warrants framework in the Summary Proceedings Act 1957. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next change made by the bill is to update the principal Act to provide a clear framework for facilities that are to be the subject of surveillance. Facilities include identifiers such as telephone numbers and Internet protocol addresses. The objective is to provide for the specification of cyber-identities in warrant applications. The amendment will allow warrants to be granted when specific facilities can be identified, but the name or the physical location of a subject is not known. This is a very necessary update in an age where the use of unattributable mobile phones and cyber-identities is common. The matter is one that has been specifically raised as a matter for legislative amendment by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. The term \u201Cfacility\u201D will be defined in the interpretations section of the principal Act. The bill also introduces a definition of \u201Cidentity\u201D, which includes an alias adopted by, or assigned to, a person. Clause 7 amends section 4B of the principal Act to enable intelligence warrants to make facilities the subject of intelligence warrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 5 amends the principal Act to rename interception warrants as intelligence warrants. The name \u201Cinterception warrants\u201D has never been representative of the range of surveillance activities. At present those warrants cover interception and the seizure of documents or things. With the amendment, they will also cover electronic tracking. Renaming them as intelligence warrants supports transparency by better reflecting the scope of warranted surveillance activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe authorities provided to the Security Intelligence Service require clarification in the area of computer-based surveillance. Section 253 of the Crimes Act 1961 already provides a qualified exemption to the access without authorisation offence for the service. The current approach of providing a qualified exemption for some activities relating to computers but not for others creates uncertainty for the intelligence agencies, as well as for other agencies acting under warrant. The current exemption may be insufficient to cover modern surveillance methods that may interfere with a computer system in a temporary or minor way, and the current arrangements do not recognise the merging of technologies, particularly in terms of phones and computers. Clause 17 therefore amends section 248 of the Crimes Act, which sets out definitions relating to computer-related offences. It inserts a new definition of \u201Cauthorisation\u201D, and this amendment will clarify that a lawfully issued warrant will constitute an authorisation for the purposes of the computer-related provisions in the Crimes Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill clarifies the protections in the principal Act for persons acting in accordance with a warrant. These amendments focus on two issues. First, the principal Act does not adequately protect from liability those persons exercising Security Intelligence Service entry powers when they are seeking to obtain or facilitate entry. Minor property interference is sometimes necessary in order to obtain entry and better protect the safety of persons exercising those warrants. Clause 8 will replace section 4E of the principal Act. It will clarify that those persons exercising Security Intelligence Service powers will be protected from liability when they are seeking to obtain or facilitate entry. Second, the Act will be amended to provide consistent protection to all persons acting under Security Intelligence Service warrants from liability, regardless of the foreign or domestic status of the warrant. Currently, protection applies only to domestic warrants, so it applies only when the subject of a warrant is a New Zealand citizen or resident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EA number of other changes will be made to the substantive legislation in order to improve practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBecause of the operational sensitivity of the matters covered by the bill, public consultation was not undertaken during the policy development stage. Instead, in order to address the public interest in the area of privacy and to ensure the proposals were calibrated against appropriate oversight arrangements, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, the Office of the Ombudsmen, the Commissioner of Security Warrants, and the inspector-general were consulted on the development of the bill. To enable members of the public to contribute, it will be recommended to the members of the Intelligence and Security Committee that public submissions on the bill should be invited and arrangements made to hear submitters who wish to appear before the committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f6c4d7510b49de843486b0e02a74fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f6c4d7510b49de843486b0e02a74fc\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill in its first reading. I have to say that the Opposition is very disappointed that the Government has decided to include this bill in the urgency motion. We were led to understand, right up to question time today, that this bill would not be part of the urgency motion and that it would be taken first for its first reading, then urgency would be taken. I think it was important that it was outside the urgency motion, because the optics of it are not good. I do not believe that the public will like the optics of putting this bill in an urgency motion very much, at all. It is a very, very serious bill about human rights, and a serious bill that deserves to be taken in the ordinary time of this House. There was no need to include it in the urgency motion, which means that something must be done urgently at this moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI have to say that this shows me that the Government is in a shambles over its legislative programme. It has no idea what it wants to do. Gerry Brownlee told this House about 2 weeks ago that we would not be having any more urgency, and now we are having urgency on this very important bill and on many, many others. I have to say that the Labour Opposition will be here for as long as it takes to debate every one of them. But to tell Parliament and the people of New Zealand that one is finished with urgency, and one\u2019s programme is up to date, and to then decide that one is to have some urgency, shows that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. We will debate this bill and other bills, including the very many that have been put down in the urgency motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Government has indicated that this bill is needed ahead of the Rugby World Cup, and it is one that amends the principal Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act, to implement the Government\u2019s policy decision to update the interception warrant framework. This bill takes account of technological changes, developments in human rights case law, and the modern requirements of intelligence acquisitions. We believe that a number of issues need to be considered with this bill. First of all, we need to weigh matters of national security with issues of human rights. Secondly, a citizen\u2019s rights to privacy and to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure are fundamental rights, and we must always take great care when defining State powers that impact upon these rights. Thirdly, the task of balancing the State\u2019s surveillance powers with the protection of fundamental human rights is a complex one. The Labour Opposition welcomes the input of the Privacy Commissioner, the Ombudsman, and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security to the development of the policy, and, of course, we also look forward to hearing submissions at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe also note the comments made in the regulatory impact statement by Dr Warren Young of the Law Commission. In my experience, the Law Commission has been an organisation that has provided extremely good advice to Governments over many years, and so, particularly, has Dr Warren Young. He independently reviewed the regulatory impact analysis prepared by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and also the associated supporting material. Dr Young said that he was satisfied that \u201Cthe information and analysis met all of the quality assurance criteria. He noted that the updating and clarifying issues arising from the current legislation were clearly identified; the policy options addressing these issues were adequately canvassed; and the need for the preferred policy option was demonstrated.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDr Young noted: \u201CWhile there are some impacts on privacy, this is clearly justified by the associated benefits. In particular, updating the warrant framework is a recognition of technological changes in the storage of and communication of information, and is essential in order to enable the NZSIS to continue to effectively undertake its statutory functions.\u201D I think those words are reassuring to those who might be doubting the changes that are being made in this legislation. We will be supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe principal Act was first enacted in 1969. Now it is 41 years old. When we think about that time span, an awful lot has changed. Man went to the moon and landed on the moon in May of that very year. The first supersonic jet with passengers flew in 1976. No one had heard of Twitter, Facebook, social networks, and so on, and certainly most people were still using the telephone that was connected to wires. Over the past 40 years communication and data storage technology has changed significantly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAreas of interest and activity for the Security Intelligence Service now include things as simple as email\u2014things that we take for granted that we have on our BlackBerries every day. This legislation now takes account of those changes with regard to our email, Internet accounts, mobile phones, and social networking facilities such as Facebook and Twitter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn the past 20 years there have also been developments in New Zealand\u2019s human rights law. Section 21 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act guarantees the right of everyone to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, and modern case law increasingly expects that security services will rely on specific rather than generalised legislative provisions to undertake their work. The bill amends the warrant framework that takes account of the contemporary legal and technological environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe issues raised in the bill are important, because they involve the balancing of personal privacy and property rights with matters of national security. The principal Act allows the Director of Security to apply for warrants to intercept or seize documents, communications, or things that cannot otherwise be lawfully obtained. There are also currently powers that enable these tasks to be performed in fields such as powers of entry and search. The principal Act contains a range of safeguards in terms of both procedure and oversight. For example, the current warrant framework requires evidence that an interception is necessary to detect activities that might upset security. Other requirements are that the value of the information must justify its seizure, the information is not likely to be obtained by other means, and the information is not privileged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses a number of very important issues that have not been looked at for over 41 years. When we look at such things as tracking devices, we find that organisations like the New Zealand Police and the Customs Service have already had the law updated in their areas of work, but the tracking warrant regime for the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service has not been reviewed. So there are many parts of this bill that bring the organisation into the modern era to take account of the technology that we now have available to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThere is also one important point to make, which is that we are calling on the Government and the Prime Minister to allow submissions to the proposed changes on the SIS legislation to be held in open session. First, this bill is being brought in under urgency; secondly, it is of interest to the public; and, thirdly, it can be held in open session because a select committee has the ability to hold submissions in private when it wants to. If the select committee deems that a submission ought to be heard in private, then it can do that. The rule and principle set down by the then Prime Minister Jenny Shipley is that unless there are extraordinary circumstances that require a closed hearing for any particular submission, then they ought to be heard in public. We urge the Prime Minister, John Key, to hear as many of those submissions in public as possible. There is no reason to be secretive or inflexible on this matter. I think it is important for the confidence of New Zealanders in this legislation that as much information as possible is made available to them and that as many people as possible can hear what is said on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002201b3c27dacd34b478425f219884995c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b3c27dacd34b478425f219884995c2\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a11aa57a8d8645dd96b3921039eac9ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a11aa57a8d8645dd96b3921039eac9ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill is an important bill, notwithstanding the fact that the previous speaker, Craig Foss, stood up and made just a 5-second speech on it. Any bill that affects the civil liberties of New Zealanders and gives powers of surveillance to an arm of the State is worthy of proper consideration by this House, whether it is the police, the Customs Service, the Ministry of Transport, or the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis bill affects the powers of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. The powers of the Security Intelligence Service have not been updated for some years now. Indeed, the principal Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act, was enacted in 1969, which is 41 years ago. In the time since then, technological changes have meant there have been significant changes in surveillance techniques. This Parliament has been addressing the consequences of those changes in surveillance techniques in a range of legislation recently, notably the Search and Surveillance Bill, which deals with police powers and the powers of non-State agencies. We have touched upon the changes in respect of private security personnel, although that is an area of law that still needs a bit of a tidy-up. Now Parliament is looking at them in respect of the Security Intelligence Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt is a sad fact that one thing that has happened as a consequence of change in technology is that there are methods of surveillance in New Zealand currently able to be used by arms of the State that are largely unregulated because they were not thought of when the original legislation controlling State activities was passed by this Parliament. Rather than legislation necessarily always conferring additional powers on State agencies, in some ways it limits the powers of State agencies to use new technologies in a way that is currently unconstrained. Labour agrees that there is a need to tidy up those new technologies and make some other changes in respect of the Security Intelligence Service, just as we agreed that some changes were necessary in respect of the police and other State agencies in the search and surveillance legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI am pleased to talk also about the principles that should underlie our consideration of issues such as these. When we give powers to the State, we should always be aware that they can be abused. Therefore, although it is appropriate that the arms of the State have more powers than ordinary people to conduct surveillance operations and to check on illegal activity, on plans that could cause physical harm to people\u2019s bodies, or, on occasion, on a level of involvement in criminal activities or activities that threaten the security of our country, we must always be aware that giving unconstrained powers to State agencies should be avoided, because those powers can be abused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe see that not just in New Zealand but in other countries. It is entirely appropriate that we in this Parliament put limits around the exercise by State agencies of the powers that they need on occasions to maintain surveillance operations on other people that go further than the powers that I or anyone else in this House has. We do not have those rights as private citizens, generally. There are some holes in that law at the moment, but generally we do not have those powers. When we give those powers to State agencies, we ought to be sure that they are appropriately constrained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have different sorts of constraints in respect of the police compared with those that we give to the Security Intelligence Service, which has different methods of oversight. The oversight in respect of security warrants is provided by the Commissioner of Security Warrants, who is a retired High Court judge. That person is of higher standing than the person to whom one would normally apply for warrants in respect of police matters. Police can get warrants from registrars of the court and from justices of the peace, but the level of disclosure to what we would describe as lower-level functionaries in the State bureaucracy is not always appropriate in matters of State security. For that reason, the person who oversees the issue of warrants in respect of the Security Intelligence Service is a retired High Court judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe changes proposed to the Act have been advised by the Government to the Opposition, and we thank the Government for the briefing it provided to the Opposition in respect of the reasons for the changes. That briefing follows on a longstanding tradition in New Zealand, and is to be applauded, because those things ought to be done with cross-party support, if at all possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have already made the point through the Hon Annette King in this debate that we think there should be a public process for hearing submissions. When we confer rights on State agencies, we ought not to be scared to hear from people who might be critical of those decisions, as they could be right. We ought to hear their submissions and take them into account before we in this Parliament decide to change the powers of the Security Intelligence Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere will be times when the justification for powers such as those that are sought might include instances where those powers have been used previously. The Security Intelligence Service might think it appropriate that members of Parliament learn about them, but not appropriate for those powers to be advertised through the newspapers, effectively, if there was public reporting. That is a delicate balance for Parliament to tread. We want to maintain as much openness as possible, but at the same time we do not want to be so open that we inhibit the fair operation of the Security Intelligence Service or make it more likely that it will not be as open with the Intelligence and Security Committee as we hope it would be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat balance is to be struck by the committee, which is in charge of its own processes. The chair and the members of that committee have an important task to consider whether some or all of the submissions should be heard in public, or whether selected submissions should appropriately be heard in private or in secret. Again, there are precedents for this. The Rt Hon Jenny Shipley previously said, under the National-led Government in 1999, which considered Security Intelligence Service matters, that these hearings should be open to the public unless there are extraordinary circumstances that require a closed hearing for any particular submission. I suggest to this House that that remain the position. Just because we have had at one level a rise of terrorism internationally since that period, it does not change the underlying principle that there should be something extraordinary to justify a committee conducting its business in anything other than a public way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think some countries in other parts of the world have gone wrong. Some of the additional powers that have been conferred upon State agencies in terms of surveillance powers in the United Kingdom have, in my view, gone too far. There is considerable backlash against those powers in those countries. Of course, if there is a backlash against arms of the State, it undermines public confidence in the rule of law. A governing body actually wants to carry people with it when it comes to the laws that govern search and surveillance. A governing body wants people to think that the system overall is fair, so that the people cooperate with it rather than work against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe do not want to make the mistake made in Great Britain, where the search and surveillance powers of State agencies have gone too far. We want to maintain the civil liberties that we have in order to have freedom from inappropriate intrusion by State agencies into our lives, whilst not being so naive as to deny the reality that there are occasions when we want an arm of the State, the Security Intelligence Service, to actually be checking whether people are doing things that could be damaging to our country\u2019s interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELabour supports this bill going to the committee, but we will be keeping a weather eye on the process of that committee to make sure that all that can appropriately be done in public in respect of this legislation is done in public. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022088131247fa94559a69c43e8051b5497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022088131247fa94559a69c43e8051b5497\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be voting against the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, but before I explain why, I wish to register a protest about the way the bill is being rushed through the parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe passage of the bill is accompanied by an unnecessary level of secrecy. There was no advance publicity about the bill before it was tabled in the House, nor any public consultations as to its contents, unlike other bills. The regulatory impact statement accompanying the bill says that \u201CBecause of the operational sensitivity of the proposals, public consultation on the proposals was not undertaken.\u201D That is simply not a valid excuse. There is nothing in the bill that is of an operationally sensitive nature. It is all about the powers that the SIS is to be given and the processes it has to conform to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAfter this first reading in Parliament, the bill will go to the secret Intelligence and Security Committee for consideration. As things stand, the public and the media will not be allowed into that committee to hear the exchanges between submitters and committee members. Hopefully that will change. On Tuesday, the Prime Minister ruled out any open hearings, but yesterday he responded positively to my question and said he was taking further advice. I suggest that he learn from former Prime Minister Shipley, who in 1999 allowed public hearings on the last SIS amendment bill. In the view of the Green Party, the people and the media have the right to be present during submissions on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESubmitters are the people most likely to spot weaknesses in the bill, because unlike select committees, the Intelligence and Security Committee is chaired by the Minister in charge of the bill, the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service, who is also the Prime Minister. He is unlikely to be particularly critical of his own bill. By having the Prime Minister as the committee chairperson it also means that the Intelligence and Security Committee is a hopeless oversight body for the intelligence services. The Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service is hardly the person to lead an oversight body, particularly one to which he appoints most of the members. The result is that the SIS is the most unaccountable State agency we have, which is a key reason why the Green Party is voting against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEssentially we do not want to give the SIS greater powers to invade our privacy when it is such an unaccountable organisation with a history of being used against political dissenters. The Green Party can testify to that because three of our MPs, Catherine Delahunty, Sue Bradford, and I, have been provided with our SIS files, showing that our activities for greater social justice in this country drew the attention of the SIS, in my own case for several decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe spying on dissenters has not ended. More recent cases, such as the Ahmed Zaoui case, have not shown the SIS in a good light. Ahmed Zaoui, a democratic politician who had fallen foul of the Algerian military dictatorship, was persecuted by the SIS for years until the agency admitted in legal proceedings that it did not really have a case. It was clear that the main concern of the SIS was to please what it called likeminded countries, like France, which backed the Algerian dictatorship in its own interests. The rights of Mr Zaoui, who now runs a kebab stall in Palmerston North Square, were very much secondary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne reason why political dissenters can be, and have been, targeted by the SIS is that its legislated political mandate is very vague. For example, it is able to spy on those who prejudice \u201Cthe international relations of the Government of New Zealand\u201D. That is something that the Green Party could be guilty of each week in Parliament, if one listened to National MPs. They think that the Green Party\u2019s current opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade and investment agreement, and our request that the Government\u2019s negotiating position be made public, prejudices the international relations of the New Zealand Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe SIS operates in such great secrecy that it can spy on critics of Government policy with relative impunity. It is hard to argue for more intrusive powers for such an agency, which has clearly transgressed people\u2019s human rights but cannot demonstrate to have done much to improve our safety as a people. That contrasts with the police, which is considerably more open in, and accountable for, its activities. The police also have a mandate to detect politically motivated crime such as terrorism, and it is hard to see an additional and separate role for the SIS other than to spy on those who are actively opposed to the current policies of the Government of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThese changes to the powers of the SIS are being rushed through in unseemly haste, using the spectre of terrorism at next year\u2019s Rugby World Cup as an excuse. Of course, New Zealand does need to have good security at the cup, but I think the police are perfectly capable of handling that. The limiting of alcohol would provide better security at the Rugby World Cup than limiting our civil liberties through granting spooks extra powers. I think it is unlikely that we will be overrun by terrorists at the World Cup. It should be noted that rugby-playing nations are remarkably free of terrorism, and perhaps that says something about rugby as a sport. Mind you, if we are talking about the danger of terrorism it might be more on the field than off the field. Players like Richie McCaw, and now Sonny Bill Williams, could well terrorise their opponents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems with granting the SIS extra powers in the modern digital technology age is that it enables them to be used in a more intrusive manner than in the past. For example, this bill enables spooks to put tracking devices, under warrant, on a whole grouping of people and track them everywhere they go using global positioning system technology. Also, the bill gives the SIS an extra explicit power to \u201Cmonitor\u201D an audiovisual or electronic interception device covertly placed in someone\u2019s home. The increased sophistication and miniaturisation of such devices allows for more widespread monitoring of people\u2019s private activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe legislation also makes it easier for warrants to be changed or expanded on authority delegated from the Director of Security so that extra phone companies or Internet service providers can be roped in to help intercept the communications of a particular person or group of people. The range of information that the SIS can intercept or collect is explicitly expanded in the bill so that warrants now contain such details as email addresses, user account identifiers, Internet protocol addresses, and Internet storage accounts. Basically, whatever a person does on a computer can now be accessed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis bill takes us one more step down the road to a surveillance State, where more and more of our private activities can be monitored. This spying will almost always take place without us knowing, which accounts for the lack of complaints about SIS surveillance to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. Public reporting by the SIS tells us almost nothing about the spying going on. We do get annual statistics on the number of warrants issued but we have no idea how many people are covered by each warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe secretive nature of the SIS and the lack of accountability to Parliament and the people means that it can be more easily harnessed to serve the interests of other States, as I have already explained in the Ahmed Zaoui case. Our Government\u2019s recent defence white paper described the United States as our \u201Cstalwart partner\u201D, so it is probably the American intelligence agencies we have to worry about in terms of bending the SIS towards their interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn summary, I think that we have to have great suspicions about this agency, particularly about extending its powers. It operates in an unaccountable way. It operates in a secret way with very little oversight from Parliament and the people, and it has a history of spying on political dissenters. In fact, it may be being used by other powers. In the recent case exposed by WikiLeaks of the United States spying on United Nations officials, including former Prime Minister Helen Clark, it may well be that the Waihopai spy station was used, even inadvertently from a New Zealand Government position, because Waihopai is integrated into the United States intelligence apparatus. The Green Party will oppose this bill, as it is contrary to New Zealand\u2019s interests and the interests of the privacy of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002212e10c7dd6534768968beb7995a4f758\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212e10c7dd6534768968beb7995a4f758\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. First of all, let me say that the M\u0101ori Party is not fundamentally opposed to the Government taking steps to ensure the security of our country, nor are we opposed to the use of technology to enhance that security. Furthermore, the M\u0101ori Party supports the principles of transparency, accountability, integrity, respect, and confidentiality. But in terms of this bill\u2019s proposal to widen the powers of the SIS, I have to express grave doubts about the way in which a secret organisation goes about snooping on ordinary, law-abiding citizens in this country. I express particular concern on behalf of the many M\u0101ori in this country who are actively campaigning for recognition of tino rangatiratanga, as well as those citizens who care about the integrity of this nation, for the very reason that they have been the improper targets of the SIS in the past, and will undoubtedly attract further attention from the pie in the briefcase brigade in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor those with a short memory, I will recall just a few of the following incidents for the edification of the members of this House: the SIS publicly releasing a list of so-called radicals and subversives during the 1981 Springbok Tour to try to hamstring the anti-tour movement\u2014what a complete waste of time that was\u2014SIS agents caught in an illegal search of the house of Christchurch anti-globalisation activist Aziz Choudry; the SIS issuing a security risk certificate against Ahmed Zaoui, and having the poor bugger held in jail without trial, until it was forced to withdraw the certificate when it could not substantiate its claims; SIS involvement in gathering the information that led to the botched terrorism raids on the nation of T\u016Bhoe, and the laying of terrorism charges against T\u016Bhoe citizens, which have since been thrown out; and just last month, for some unknown reason, Professor Jane Kelsey, a vocal critic of the SIS\u2019s role in New Zealand politics, all of a sudden is stopped at the airport when trying to get into Australia to promote a book challenging the credibility of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EGiven the public embarrassment that the SIS has subjected this nation to over the last 20 years with some of its Keystone Cops routines and its harassment of law-abiding citizens, I would have thought Parliament would be wanting greater scrutiny over the SIS rather than simply rubberstamping its cellphone snoopery. But here we are considering giving these guys even greater powers? When I think of who is actually watching the watchers, I am mindful that although there is a committee set up to oversee the SIS, the operations are not themselves subject to public scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is happy to support this bill at first reading if it will be brought before a committee for public debate and scrutiny, because we want people who have concerns about the SIS\u2019s past and current activities to tell the committee so that the Government can hear exactly what it is its precious SIS gets up to. But we are not keen to support it if those submissions are all going to be held behind closed doors. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224617fbc3df674904b1497469ff931a56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224617fbc3df674904b1497469ff931a56\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae147fa0913840e29a3bfc4e09a6c264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae147fa0913840e29a3bfc4e09a6c264\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill. I will speak on the bill in detail because it is an extremely important bill for New Zealand, as many of the speakers on this side of the House and from the Greens and the M\u0101ori Party have suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe are sitting under urgency to look at this bill. Two weeks ago we were told by the Leader of the House that the House would not need to go into urgency, because the legislative planning was well under control. We would not need to sit here until probably the weekend. None of us on this side of the House have any problem with being here until the weekend, but what I do have a problem with is that while we are sitting here under urgency listening to speeches on highly important legislation for New Zealand such as this bill, the Government member Louise Upston stood up to take a 2-second call on something that will affect and impinge upon the human rights of every New Zealander in this country. She took a 2-second call. How cynical is that? The Government is putting this bill through the House under urgency, yet one of its members stood up to take a 2-second call. And then the Government has insisted on hearing submissions on this bill in secret. How cynical is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis bill is very important. It updates the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. It brings it in line with changes in modern technology. It amends the principal Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act, to take account of technological changes, developments in human rights and case law, and the modern requirements of intelligence acquisition. Those have all changed in the last 41 years since the principal Act was put in place. The objectives of the bill are to maintain the SIS\u2019s effectiveness by updating warrants to clarify that modern technical methods of surveillance can be used now. The Internet, cellphones, and a whole range of different methods are available now that were not even dreamt about 41 years ago. The second objective is to maintain protections of those acting under warrant, including exercising entry powers. The third is to improve operational efficiency by allowing a more flexible process for people assisting under warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThat is all very good, but there are some fundamental issues with the bill. As my colleague from the M\u0101ori Party Hone Harawira just pointed out, we need to weigh up matters of national security with issues of human rights and the protection of human rights, which we in this modern democracy grow up with and probably take for granted. We need to weigh up national security with human rights. A citizen\u2019s right to privacy and to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure are fundamental rights that we take for granted in this country; we have grown up with them and they are part of our whole being as New Zealanders. We must take care when defining State powers that impact upon those rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ESecondly, the task of balancing the State\u2019s surveillance powers with the protection of human rights is complex. It is not an easy thing. It comes into conflict often with many, many different operational situations. We need, therefore, the widest range of opinion and advice in hearing this legislation. So I think the input of the Privacy Commissioner, the Ombudsman, and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security into the development of policy in the committee process will be extremely, extremely important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELabour, as earlier speakers have said, will support this bill being referred to the Intelligence and Security Committee. The principal Act is now, as I said before, 41 years old. It was brought in in 1969, the year we landed on the moon for the first time. The issues that are raised in the bill are important because they involve, as I said before, balancing privacy and property rights with national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe principal Act contains a range of safeguards in both procedure and oversight. For example, the current warrant requires evidence that an interception is necessary to detect activities prejudicial to security, that the value of the information justifies any seizure or any sort of activity along those lines, that the information is not likely to be obtained by any other less obtrusive or less extreme means, and, finally, that the information is not privileged. We have oversight by the Commissioner of Security Warrants, who is a retired High Court judge, and the Prime Minister. So this legislation is at the highest levels of our Government system. Therefore it needs and demands to be treated seriously with the respect it deserves. I do not believe that that is the case with regard to the way it is being rammed through the House under urgency, and to the trivial call of 1\u00BD seconds from a member on the Government side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will mention a couple of things the bill addresses. When I refer to updating the technology, I mean tracking devices and global positioning systems, which did not exist 41 years\u2019 ago. The New Zealand Police and New Zealand Customs have already had the law defining their activities changed, but the SIS has yet to be properly reviewed. As I have said, we have the Internet, cellphones, satellite telephones, and a whole range of different technologies that demand that the legislation is brought into the 21st century. But we must ensure that the legislation has the right checks and balances, and that as it goes forward it is heard in a public forum. Many members speaking on this bill\u2014those who have deigned to speak for more than 1\u00BD seconds\u2014have spoken about the need for the hearings to be held in public. The Prime Minister came out and said they would be held in private. The Labour Party has said that the hearings need to be held in open session. Lo and behold, just yesterday the Prime Minister came out and said he will have a rethink on this policy. That attitude is the Government\u2019s plan and strategy for the future: kick the tyres, check the pulse, do the polling, and change one\u2019s mind. That is what the Prime Minister did. He went away, checked the polling, and felt that maybe he had overextended the secrecy element and needed to make the hearings more open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EHis predecessor Jenny Shipley had already done that. She said that Security Intelligence Service legislation needs to be heard in secret only where that is warranted; other than that, we should hear it in public. This bill is of such importance that it definitely needs to be heard in public. It needs to have a good hearing. It should be talked about and discussed openly right across the country. People should realise that the technological changes, which are needed, must be balanced with, and matched by, the ability to protect our human rights and our right not to have our privacy transgressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party will support the bill being referred to the committee but we will be listening very carefully to the submissions. I say finally that it would be a really good idea for members of the Government to stand up, take a decent call, and attribute to the bill the importance that it deserves. The Government is being cynical in rushing the bill through the House under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002273afeeeb581c4d4bb9cc8e980a48b208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273afeeeb581c4d4bb9cc8e980a48b208\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to the challenge presented by the previous speaker and in so doing support the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill. I too commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227662e970d31e4738adc532e5380cfe89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227662e970d31e4738adc532e5380cfe89\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that National is not choosing to contribute to the debate on a piece of legislation that matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb5c1805a9e64dd1849da5f4b210e0ee\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What was that? You and your other two members in the House? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae788fe70aa4073a7615e40ac5190ca\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether the Minister for Social Development and Employment would like to pull in what is left of her head, and I will continue with my contribution to the House. I do think that National should contribute to the debate on the legislation. The fact that it is doing what is called \u201Cwhips\u2019 calls\u201D, which means that members opposite get up, say something, sit down, and that counts as having made a speech\u2014and therefore counts as having got one-twelfth of the way through to the end point of the legislation\u2014is not a very good look. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ELabour will be supporting this legislation. We do so with some mixture of views and with some hesitation that always attends legislation of this ilk. Those who understand legislation of this ilk far better than I will say that it seeks to achieve a balance between the protection of society, on the one hand, from bad people, and attention to human rights, on the other hand, from an over-excitable State sector. Labour\u2019s position on the legislation is that getting that balance right will take a bit of time. Over the years the one thing that has helped has been an increase in the degree of transparency that applies to SIS activities and SIS legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EFor example, there used to be no ability to examine the SIS at a committee level. There was no ability to do that. There was an obligation on the SIS to tell the Prime Minister of the day how many people\u2019s phones had been tapped. The Prime Minister of the day would table that number on the floor of the House, once a year; and that was that. These days we have more openness than that. In other words, the SIS has certain powers that no one else has but is obliged to explain what it does with them more openly than it ever has before. So one of the things that society can do, as it is trying to match this balance between what is perceived to be the need for closer public safety or more attention to public security on the one hand and attention to human rights on the other hand is to reach for transparency. There are various ways of doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EOf course, things can go wrong. I can remember being a member of Cabinet during the Ahmed Zaoui case. That was a very difficult time to be in Government because the law could not be changed mid-stream. We did, however, indicate that we would change the law at the end of the course of that process, and we did. That is an example of what can happen when things go wrong and people decide that a person has a certain profile that it turns out they may not have. Keith Locke, who is sitting not so far away from me now, is another example of someone who perhaps somewhat to his considerable surprise has been under the watch of the SIS because he is such a beastly terrorist-inspired sort of a coot! He has found himself, until recent times, under the examination of the spooks. That is simply bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the select committee hearings for this legislation the idea that the hearings would be all held in secret is itself intolerable. The way that the committee is put together, as I understand it, is that any one person on the committee can veto the hearing of evidence in public. In other words, the rules around it are tilted such that one needs unanimity to get openness. Any one person can require hearings to be closed. I think I have got that right. I think I saw the Prime Minister of the land, who is a member of that committee, tell the House, the day before yesterday, or it may have even been yesterday, that he was of the view that things would need to be held in secret, and, therefore, as he alone held that view they would be held in secret. We are learning, today, that maybe the Prime Minister is changing his mind. I would simply say to the Prime Minister that it is not OK to be beholden to the wisdom, or at least the advice, of SIS folk, who of course will say: \u201CWe want to be heard in secret.\u201D Of course they will say they do not want any hearings to be made public. Of course, they will not want transparency on their watch, because that is not their style, it is not their history, it is not where they have come from. That is why they are called spooks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThat does not make it good. If we are to have the SIS getting into the Prime Minister\u2019s ear, getting him excited, giving him \u201CBoys\u2019 Own Story\u201D stuff about how we really should not allow the bright lights of transparency to shine on the processes of this legislation, and the Prime Minister uses his veto right to ensure that the rest of the country does not get to see what goes on in the select committee, that is bad style. We know that the Prime Minister is subject to that sort of \u201Cboys\u2019 own\u201D excitable story stuff, because he travels with an enormous number of Diplomatic Protection Squad personnel around him. He has people striding around him. Even when he is about to walk into this Chamber he comes with an armed guard. It is unbelievable. I do not know of any Prime Minister in the history of this country, and certainly none that I have had anything to do with, who would walk around this building with armed guards\u2014with lumpy armpits\u2014either side of him. Who would trammel the dignity of the Prime Minister in this place? I really do think he is vulnerable to that excitable \u201Cboys\u2019 own\u201D stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI think that is a shame. If the Prime Minister is of that nature, if that is his personality, then maybe it has affected his approach to the openness of the select committee hearings. If that is the case, then we have a situation where one person alone gets to say that the rest of the 4 million of us are not entitled to have an open process for this legislation. That is not good. The ideal would be to have a default position that was open, except that there will be some instances at some stage where the select committee members should be the only ones to know some level of evidence. I can imagine that being the case and I would be comfortable with that, even though I am not myself on the Intelligence and Security Committee. But the default position has to be \u201Clet\u2019s have it in the open, unless\u201D, and at the moment the default position, occasioned by the Prime Minister alone, seems to be \u201CLet\u2019s have it all locked up, unless I change my mind.\u201D I ask the Prime Minister to please change his mind, because he is about to make a big mistake if he does not. It is really important, as we try to balance on the one hand the dignity and importance of human rights, and on the other hand the protection of society, that we use transparency as a way to get that balance right. The Prime Minister is of an opposite view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002233aada3bee4f4c37a60e91d2a20a54d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233aada3bee4f4c37a60e91d2a20a54d2\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT Party to speak on the first reading of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, which makes five main changes to update and clarify existing legislation to take into account advances in technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act was passed more than 40 years ago, and I think it is safe to say that at that time Parliament would not have been able to consider the way in which technological advances would affect the role of our security services. As such, the Act does not recognise the electronic and digital methods that the SIS uses in its investigations today or the methods used by those whom the SIS investigates. No longer are those being investigated exclusively tracked and followed by agents. Although such methods are undoubtedly still utilised, the vast majority of surveillance is now done by remote and electronic means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ECurrent legislation should reflect current practice, and bringing this law into the 21st century is long overdue. The bill will do that by making it clear that the warrant framework set out in the Act includes electronic tracking. The bill updates the means by which the subject of the surveillance can be monitored. Sadly, for those of us who are old spy movie buffs, the days of secret agents breaking into a home and attaching a bugging device to a landline phone are probably long over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe bill will update and expand the scope of the Act to include 21st century technology such as mobile phones and other digital communication devices. With the expansion of computers in our everyday lives, the ability for individuals or organisations to misuse such technology to aid their lawbreaking has risen dramatically. The bill will provide an explicit focus on those using new technologies, and clarifies that computer-based surveillance is a permitted activity for the intelligence services by ensuring a clearer exemption from that aspect of the Crimes Act. The security service requires and deserves clear direction in order to remove any uncertainty over the legality of its actions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThis bill will enable the SIS to work more effectively within the New Zealand Police and other enforcement agencies. It will modernise the current Act and the activities of the SIS to bring them into line with our overseas partners and with technological advances over the last four decades. It will provide our security services with a clear and modern mandate to keep our country and our people safe. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00223054d6f1557f4fee8b929e5109ffcd5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223054d6f1557f4fee8b929e5109ffcd5e\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a \u201Cwhip\u2019s call\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8aa948abfe04e35ab6e2e2bcf39f092\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re a whip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe99b8f8d144f2682c39fa1d6d06a9d\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014maybe because I am a whip\u2014and make the closing speech of the debate on the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBefore I commend the bill to the House I have to say a few words in reply to the Hon Pete Hodgson. He was going on about the Prime Minister and his \u201Cboys\u2019 own\u201D way of walking around with the SIS. If anyone in this House loves the SIS, it is Pete Hodgson. In fact, he walks into the House every day almost in camouflage gear. I imagine his underwear is probably in camouflage. If any action takes place in this House with members trying to dig dirt on anybody, that man is at the bottom of trying to uncover the dirt. If anybody loves the SIS manoeuvres or tactics it is Pete Hodgson. I had a bit of a laugh when he talked about that in respect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWithout any further ado, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b874c819a11422498f3a93713dad0c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00228de4e75854844a4c93bee5458e39c819\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de4e75854844a4c93bee5458e39c819\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Attorney-General)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service: I move, That the Intelligence and Security Committee consider the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 187 and 190(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229df0d543ea854d7fae108d94a590d0be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acbe8520d75e4b0bae562ee18d740500\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282a50f5508b84abebc385e2fc6ac5b34\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002269e50104e7294dadbbd66f6f0b2ab61e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269e50104e7294dadbbd66f6f0b2ab61e\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: I move, That the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill be now read a third time. E ng\u0101 rahi o Ng\u0101 Wairiki, Ng\u0101ti Apa, t\u0101tou ng\u0101 uri w\u2019aka\u2019eke i te Waka o Karahaup\u014D, ng\u0101 tuku iho o ng\u0101 maunga t\u016Bpuna, ng\u0101 kaitiaki o ng\u0101 awa o W\u2019angae\u2019\u016B, Turakina, Manga\u2019wero, Rangit\u012Bkei; Ng\u0101ti Apa, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Apa-\u2019\u0101pai-taketake n\u0101na te tapiki i te t\u0101kiritanga o te ata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E[To the multitude of Ng\u0101 Wairiki and Ng\u0101ti Apa, we are the descendants of the Kurahaup\u014D Canoe, the ones handed down from the ancestral mountains, the guardians of the Whangaehu, Turakina, Mangawhero, and Rangit\u012Bkei rivers; greetings to us all, three times over, Ng\u0101ti Apa. It was Apa-h\u0101pai-taketake who took a hold on the dawn.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis is a day that Ng\u0101ti Apa has been waiting for for many generations and many decades. Today we come together\u2014the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Apa\u2014to reflect on a journey that started in 1899, 110 years ago. At that time the Premier, Richard Seddon, sat with our t\u016Bpuna to hear their anguish and to understand the sense of disillusionment and despair amongst them. Their pain flowed from the effects of the Rangit\u012Bkei-Turakina purchase some 50 years earlier, in 1849. In that transaction the Crown purchased the 260,000-acre Rangit\u012Bkei-Turakina block for \u20A42,500\u2014a little under tuppence an acre. That one act resulted in the mass alienation of our lands from us, and is the original source of our grievance. It was a transaction that resulted in poverty, not partnership. Worst of all, our identity as mana w\u2019enua\u2014literally, the people of the land\u2014was removed from us with one swipe of the pen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI refer back to these events because as uri of Ng\u0101 Wairiki / Ng\u0101ti Apa, the sense of travelling a journey with my ancestors is constantly with me. Today our journey takes a new turn, establishing a strong foundation to restore and enhance the well-being of Ng\u0101 Wairiki / Ng\u0101ti Apa. Although we look forward to the transformation, we can never forget\u2014nor should we\u2014the injustices that have shaped our history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIt was a history that Ng\u0101ti Apa entered into in the genuine desire to establish a positive two-way relationship with the Crown. The first major engagement between Ng\u0101ti Apa and the Crown took place on 21 May 1840 when three members of Ng\u0101ti Apa signed the Treaty of Waitangi at T\u0101whirihoe P\u0101. Eight years later, the Crown purchased over 400,000 acres of land in which Ng\u0101ti Apa had interests. But it was the impacts of the Rangit\u012Bkei-Turakina block purchase that left the deepest wounds. The k\u014Drero from the Crown at that time encouraged our t\u016Bpuna to believe that they would reap substantial economic advantages from the growth of European settlement around them. Our people agreed to the transaction in the hope that settlement would bring with it peace, protection, and prosperity. As one of our rangatira is recorded to have said in 1849, \u201CWe have married our land to the Europeans and entirely given our greatest property to the Europeans\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EOne of the tragic facts of our story was that our ancestral aspirations for a positive two-way relationship never eventuated in their time. The Crown did not properly protect the 35,000 acres of reserves from the Rangit\u012Bkei-Turakina sale. The operation of the native land laws\u2014in particular, awarding land to individual Ng\u0101ti Apa, rather than to iwi or hap\u016B\u2014made our lands more susceptible to partition, fragmentation, and alienation. So when Premier Seddon came to the marae, our elders spoke to him about the erosion of their access to mahinga kai and their dwindling tribal estate. They shared with him their grief at the decimation of traditional tribal structures based on collective tribal and hap\u016B custodianship of land, and the alienation of nearly all of Ng\u0101ti Apa\u2019s remaining lands. They recommended that the Crown pass an Act of Parliament to protect their lands, but the reserves for Ng\u0101ti Apa never eventuated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EYesterday, when the M\u0101ori Party and the National Party announced the establishment of the very significant process of constitutional review, a fascinating insight was made by a young man on the street. He remarked that we simply do not do enough to look at ourselves as a nation to know our history. Never a truer word was said. For the hap\u016B collectives that make up Ng\u0101ti Apa, we have deliberately joined together to learn our history, and to familiarise ourselves with our land interests, which stretch from M\u014Dt\u016B Karaka south to \u014Cmarupapako, and inland to the upper Rangit\u012Bkei area. We proudly claim the statutory acknowledgments that have been recognised over sites within our rohe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThrough this bill, deeds of recognition and place name changes will recognise Ng\u0101ti Apa\u2019s traditional, cultural, and spiritual relationship with their area of interest. The area known as Mount Curl will now be known as Parae Karetu. The Round Bush Scenic Reserve will be known as \u014Cmarupapako / Round Bush Scenic Reserve. Another recognition of our relationship with places and sites within the area of interest is that 12 Crown sites, totalling 214 hectares, will be transferred to Ng\u0101ti Apa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EBut it is the prospect of cultural revitalisation that probably fills me with the greatest sense of anticipation. The settlement provides for the gifting of five papak\u0101inga properties: AgResearch Lands, Parewanui School, part of the Santoft Forest, part of the Lismore Sands forest, and the Kauangaroa School. It provides for funding to assist in preparing and implementing a cultural redevelopment plan. This plan includes marae development and investment in programmes and initiatives covering areas such as te reo, the arts, and taonga or m\u0101tauranga. It provides for settlement funding to assist with compiling a comprehensive historical record, and clearing two papak\u0101inga sites located within licensed Crown forest land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAlongside all of these developments, the financial redress part of the settlement package will help Ng\u0101ti Apa to re-establish and grow their economic livelihood. Financial redress includes a cash payment of $16 million, the ability to purchase licensed Crown forest land and receive associated rentals, and the right of first refusal for 50 years to buy four Crown properties if they are declared surplus to requirements. The r\u016Bnanga has also agreed to provide Whanganui iwi with an option to buy 50 percent of the land beneath the Wanganui Prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI come back to the journey that we are on. I stand to honour our four outstanding young leaders who have championed our settlement: chairperson Adrian R\u016Brawhe, Toko K\u0101pea, P\u0101hia T\u016Bria, and Toroa P\u014Dhatu. It is no coincidence that three of these named are affiliated to t\u016Bpuna who travelled the world to take their petition to ratify Te Tiriti o Waitangi to King George. It is in our w\u2019akapapa to continue the search for resolution. My own grandfather, H\u0101miora Uru Te Angina; my adopted father, Tariuha Manawaroa Te Aweawe; and my mother\u2019s two sisters, R\u012Bpeka and Mihiterina, also travelled with Tahup\u014Dtiki W\u012Bremu R\u0101tana to get the Treaty ratified. Tahup\u014Dtiki W\u012Bremu R\u0101tana asked the Labour Party to ratify the Treaty of Waitangi. It could not and did not honour that agreement. I hope that the constitutional review we embarked on yesterday takes our journey forward in such a way as to honour our t\u016Bpuna as he deserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWhen the deed of settlement was first signed I remember my nephew Adrian speaking of the amazing gift of generosity given by iwi to the nation. He was referring to the fact that iwi, through the course of negotiations, give up the right to claim up to 97 percent of what they are entitled to. Such is the extent of the manaakitanga that they bring to this nation. How hard it is to listen to some of the redneck rhetoric that is espoused by some who are unable to accept the noble generosity of spirit expressed by tangata w\u2019enua in the Treaty settlement process. Our struggle for justice over successive generations has today come to fruition. I weep for those who are no longer with us. I am in awe of the leadership of our young, and I say to Ng\u0101 Wairaki / Ng\u0101ti Apa that we can celebrate that all this work was not in vain. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4af2c136f464101a08f4b05a5adeb92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4af2c136f464101a08f4b05a5adeb92\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E E ng\u0101 iwi o Ng\u0101ti Apa, t\u0113nei te mihi ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora koutou katoa. It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to this third and final reading of this Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill, which has been a long time in the making. I pay my respects to the t\u016Bpuna and the leaders of Ng\u0101ti Apa who have gone before and who have not lived to see this day. I pay my respects also to those who have carried their torches faithfully\u2014the young people whom the Minister has just named in her k\u014Drero\u2014who have now brought this settlement to fruition. I pay my respects to them also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI think it is a striking element of this settlement that we have the emergence of a generation of young leaders who are now more than well-equipped to settle a grievance of long standing. I recognise that, and I recognise the people who have gone before them, because they are the ones who have prepared them and equipped them for this task. I hope today that, in fact, the Government, with this third reading, puts the seal on something that should have been honoured a long time ago, as the Minister has said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI will make a couple of points about the legislation, and I will refer to a few things one of my colleagues said earlier in his first speech\u2014I think in addressing the first reading of this legislation when it came to the House. My colleague the Hon Mita Ririnui had this to say about this legislation: \u201CNg\u0101ti Apa entered into a process, which basically began with the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi, for a simple purpose: they encouraged settlement but at the same time they wanted to be recipients. They wanted to be in the position where they could benefit from much of the technology brought here by the settlers. So they entered into many discussions with Crown agents, many of whom are mentioned in the preamble to this bill. Certainly they are mentioned in the historical account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut that did not happen. In fact, Ng\u0101ti Apa went through a process of being subjected to land confiscation and land acquisition to the point \u2026 where they were left with simply 1 percent of their original land holding. For them, that had a tremendous impact \u2026 It led to the undermining of their culture, the loss of their language, and the fragmentation of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to the extent that they did not participate in the development of the Rangit\u012Bkei area. In fact, they were what we might call onlookers. The development of that area was undertaken at their expense, and they at no time were able to participate in it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe history of this settlement is painful to read. It is good that it is traversed in some detail at the beginning of this legislation, so that it is written down in our law for all to read that the land confiscation, the alienation, and the oppression of Ng\u0101ti Apa, which deprived them of economic well-being, as well as spiritual and physical well-being, can be referred back to by anybody who cares to look, because it will now enter our statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EFrom a brief traversing of the history and by reference to my colleague Mita Ririnui\u2019s words, but also in recognition of the words the Minister spoke a few minutes ago, the next step to come to in the legislation is the apology. Because the first thing that must happen in order for a settlement to be a settlement of a grievance is an apology. There is no settlement without the apology. I quote from the text of the apology in the bill: \u201C(1) The Crown recognises the efforts and struggles of the ancestors of Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) in pursuit of their claims for justice and redress from the Crown and makes this apology to Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) and their descendants. (2) The Crown profoundly regrets and unreservedly apologises to Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) for the breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi, and its principles, acknowledged above. (3) The Crown regrets and apologises for the cumulative effect of its actions and omissions over the generations to the present day which have had a detrimental impact on the traditional tribal structures of Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island), their access to customary resources and significant sites, economic and social development, and their physical, cultural, and spiritual wellbeing. (4) Accordingly, with this apology the Crown seeks to atone for its past wrongs, begin the process of healing and make a significant step towards re-building a lasting relationship based on mutual trust and cooperation with Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf I say nothing else in this speech tonight, the text of that apology is sufficient to begin a settlement process. Also within this legislation are the other elements of a settlement process, with which we are now familiar. There is the cultural redress, there is the compensation, and there is the return of lands. All of those elements are prerequisites for New Zealand, Aotearoa, to begin to move forward as people who work with each other, and treat each other in a way that is respectful and equal. We can start to build a different society on that basis. It is my great pleasure to commend this third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229619cc29146049dd800ab2b985cfe925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229619cc29146049dd800ab2b985cfe925\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome those who have travelled from the Ng\u0101ti Apa rohe and are here in the gallery today to listen to the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill. Some people in the gallery may have found it a little strange that I exited the House when Mrs Turia was speaking. The reason for doing that was that I am the Minister in charge of the passage of the bill, and I am not allowed to be in the House if another Minister is addressing it. So it was not out of any disrespect to her\u2014far from it. She is an outstanding ministerial colleague and valued parliamentary colleague. I think she is an utterly principled and brave member of this Parliament, and out of deference to her it was entirely appropriate that she led off the debate today, and that is why I left. Mind you, there are other people in the House for whom\u2014from a point of principle\u2014I leave, as soon as they stand up to speak. Mrs Turia is not one of them. Maybe a ginga on the other side of the House could come into that category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c2a0e213c14757870feb68d1d6f409\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fce37e572aa41ec8fbcb59558bbd73c\u0022\u003EHon CHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Horomia is not one of them, either. The passage of this bill concludes a long journey for Ng\u0101ti Apa. The claim started in December 1991 with the lodging of Wai 265 with the Waitangi Tribunal. That claim, as well as Wai 655, will be settled with the passage of this legislation. I very much want to acknowledge the many kuia and kaum\u0101tua who are no longer with us, who provided leadership and inspiration during this long journey towards settlement. It is a fact, and I have seen it time and time again, that those whose names were on the claim forms to the Waitangi Tribunal are no longer with us, but their children, and sometimes even their grandchildren, carry the burden of the claim through to settlement. When we settle in those circumstances, it is deeply moving and humbling. I too endorse the comments of Mrs Turia in paying tribute to the visionary leadership of the negotiating team, who have conducted a superb set of negotiations throughout the various stages of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker referred to the Crown apology. It is an essential component of the exercise we have been undertaking for so many years, because, as a part of this settlement, the Crown apologises to Ng\u0101ti Apa for past dealings that breached the Crown\u2019s obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi. Those breaches included a failure to ensure that Ng\u0101ti Apa were left with sufficient land for their present and future needs, a failure to ensure that the Native Land Court gave effect to the terms of the 1849 Rangit\u012Bkei-Turakina purchase deed, and a failure to protect Ng\u0101ti Apa\u2019s traditional tribal structures. The Crown can never fully compensate Ng\u0101ti Apa for their losses and dispossession, but through the settlement in this bill, we can provide the means for them to move forward to achieve their future, which I am sure will be great. So I hope the Crown apology and settlement will lay the ground for rebuilding a lasting relationship of trust and mutual cooperation between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Apa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the role of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Apa in the settlement of these claims and the hard work of the negotiation team. I commend the work of the Office of Treaty Settlements in negotiating this settlement on behalf of the Crown, and in particular I acknowledge the work of Ross Philipson as chief negotiator. It is my hope and my intention to deliver the Crown apology on a Ng\u0101ti Apa marae early next year for all Ng\u0101ti Apa people to hear their historical grievances acknowledged and addressed, and that is always such an important part of what we are doing. Just a couple of weeks ago I dealt with another Ng\u0101ti Apa at \u014Cmaka Marae, Kath H\u0113mi\u2019s Ng\u0101ti Apa, and when I read out the apology silence fell, everyone was very intently listening. It is an extremely important part of the exercise we are undertaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo the Ng\u0101ti Apa settlement is one of the many settlements this Government is progressing, towards our aspirational goal of justly and durably settling historical Treaty of Waitangi claims by 2014. I wish Ng\u0101ti Apa well in their future endeavours. I look forward to meeting with them, as I said, on one of their marae early in the new year to read out the apology formally. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac387c0335c44ed3b9e3a52be7ec0f09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac387c0335c44ed3b9e3a52be7ec0f09\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E E tika atu i runga i te t\u016B nei ki te mihi kau ana ki a koutou katoa o te w\u0101hi, o te whenua o Ng\u0101ti Apa. E tuku aroha ki ng\u0101 p\u0101keke e kore i konei kua rere atu r\u0101tou, k\u0101re e kite i te otinga o te h\u012Bkoi roaroa atu p\u0113nei tonu. N\u0101 te mea i roto i \u0101ku, i whakaaro atu m\u014D te taumahatanga e mahi atu te K\u0101wana ki a koutou. N\u014D reira e mihi kau ana ki a koutou o te Kurahaup\u014D m\u014D t\u014D kaha ki te tae ki te rangi nei, m\u014D t\u014D whakaaro ki te tuku awhi, tuku manaaki ki a t\u0101tou ng\u0101 kanohi M\u0101ori e manaaki atu te kawenata nei. N\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. M\u014D r\u0101tou e rere ana, e tangi hoki te ng\u0101kau. N\u0101 te pai o te whakaoti p\u0113nei tonu kua tae atu ki te w\u0101 m\u014D te whakatikatika i ng\u0101 hea e puta ana mai i te K\u0101wana. I takahia atu te tangata o te whenua, i mau kaha atu ng\u0101 riri, ng\u0101 \u0101hua e m\u014Dhio atu r\u0101tou ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Apa. N\u0101 te mea i roto i \u0101ku e kite atu te kaha o te m\u012Bharo, e kaha ana r\u0101tou ki te mau atu i te \u0101hua o te h\u016Bmarie, t\u014D r\u0101tou kaha ki te whakatikatika. T\u0113r\u0101 an\u014D te tino mihi i roto i \u0101ku m\u014D r\u0101tou. N\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[It is appropriate that I rise to specifically congratulate you all, the people of the land and region of Ng\u0101ti Apa. I extend condolences to the elders who passed away and were not able to see the completion of a journey that has taken so long. Personally, I think it was the pressure that the Government imposed upon you. That is why I really adnire you of Kurahaup\u014D for your efforts to make it here today, as well as providing assistance and support to us, the M\u0101ori members, in regard to this settlement. Congratulations. As for those who passed away, the heart grieves. Because the settlement process has gone so well, it is time now to look at how the Government intends to address it. The people of the land were mistreated; there were long-held grievances and situations that only those descendants of Ng\u0101ti Apa know about. Their ability to remain humble and work rigorously for resolution amazes me. I really admire them for that. Greetings to us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI mihi to the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, who has led the debate and discussion this afternoon because she is of Ng\u0101ti Apa descent and has been involved in this matter for a longer time than the present Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations. But I do want to recognise the present Minister, and I say that now just in case I forget on the way out, and he stands up next. I say it quite seriously. I had the honour on 8 October 2008 to be there to sign the deed, and I want to mention my former colleague Dr Michael Cullen, and Mita Ririnui, who gives his apologies. He is up in Tauranga on a matter to do with the foreshore and seabed legislation. I also want to mention the people who signed with us, Lillian Ruihi Manawaroa Te Aweawe, R\u014Dpata Te Hina\u2014e mihi kau ana ki a R\u014Dpata. E tata ana ki t\u014Dna rere haere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[a special acknowledgment to R\u014Dpata Te Hina, whose death is impending]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u2014Arikih\u0101nara Mare Mare, and Mariana Shenton. Those people had the gumption and the notion to give direction to the young group that finalised this deed and settlement, and that is something I want to talk about later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThere is a whole lot of history to this settlement\u2014what Land Claims Commissioner Spain did, what the other commissioners did, and what the Native Land Court did. The Ng\u0101ti Apa settlement is a very, very important settlement. People can take a lot of lessons out of it. Ng\u0101ti Apa waited for 100 years - plus to get to this point. I say to the Minister\u2014I see he left as soon as I stood up, but I will say it because it will be recorded\u2014that in the summaries and when he signs this document, I hope he is very clear about ensuring and understanding the support that Ng\u0101ti Apa will need in the sense of economic development. The bill in itself has a whole lot of ramifications and it should attest to a whole lot of future activity in order to put the past behind us and go forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThere is simple logic in the background of this settlement. In 1840 North Island Ng\u0101ti Apa in the Rangit\u012Bkei-Manawat\u016B area had land interests stretching from M\u014Dt\u016B Karaka, about midway between the Whanganui and Whangaehu rivers, south to \u014Cmarupapako, just north of the Manawat\u016B River, and inland to the upper Rangit\u012Bkei area. As Minister Turia said, three members of North Island Ng\u0101ti Apa signed the Treaty of Waitangi at T\u0101whirihoe P\u0101, a Ng\u0101ti Apa kainga near the mouth of the Rangit\u012Bkei River. The preamble sets out all of that. The reason I mention that is a whole lot of things have happened, and if people go to Rangit\u012Bkei now, or the area of Ng\u0101ti Apa, they will see it is one of the most flourishing economic developments in this country. I hope it is remembered that the Ng\u0101ti Apa people were paid tuppence\u2014I did not know that Minister Turia was old enough to remember pennies\u2014an acre or whatever. When we put something right, then let us ensure that we correct the imbalance. This settlement is only one part of ensuring that. When we see the wealth that abounds there, and in Taranaki and in Hamilton, we wonder and we ponder what was in other people\u2019s minds in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe apology has all those parts in it. Clause 8(4) states: \u201CAccordingly, with this apology the Crown seeks to atone for its past wrongs, beginning the process of healing and make a significant step towards re-building a lasting relationship based on mutual trust and cooperation with Ng\u0101ti Apa \u2026\u201D. They have some neighbours next door to them who have been running a formation called a paepae rangatira, which involves all these Government agencies with a whole lot of funding supposedly getting together in an effort to support those people. I suggest the Minister makes sure he keeps his finger on it, because the other one is waning a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe cultural redress is really important. Protocols are to be issued to the trustees. I mention to the two Ministers in the House that it is important that the Minister of Conservation, the Minister of Fisheries, and the Minister for Arts, Culture, and Heritage are involved, even though I grumbled a bit at the time. But we must remember who took these things off Ng\u0101ti Apa and ensure that there is a comparable line-up on the other side, so that there will not be just one-way traffic in one direction for another hundred years. I think it is more important sometimes in Treaty settlements that that is remembered. This edict or legislation of this House should not compound what has taken a hundred years to correct. I encourage the Minister to do that, and I will not walk out the next time he speaks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI want to quote from Mita Ririnui, who wanted to be here today: \u201CIt is incredible that young people of Ng\u0101ti Apa could bring this settlement to the House without too many problems.\u201D I can see that what problems they did have were handled very well. I say to the nation and to those involved in other settlements that they should take a leaf out of the book of the young people who led this settlement. Well, they are not too young; I think Toroa is older than young, and so is Andre. But that is what happens in M\u0101oridom; people are called young if they are under 70. But I say seriously and with respect that people should take a leaf out of this young group\u2019s book; they got to the end. I mention Adrian R\u016Brawhe, P\u0101hia Turia, Toroa P\u014Dhatu, and Toko K\u0101pea; that is what they did. It was wonderful to see that the old people could give the direction, hand it down, and the young people had to go and do the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I tell members that after World War II many members of North Island Ng\u0101ti Apa moved away from their tribal lands to urban areas. It was part of a national trend. Economic opportunities appeared to be better in urban areas than in rural areas. In 1962 the Department of M\u0101ori Affairs was pursuing a policy of providing housing in Whanganui and evacuating families from Kauangaroa. The department was trying to encourage M\u0101ori to move from remote rural areas to urban districts where more employment and better social amenities existed. Most Ng\u0101ti Apa people now live outside of their boundaries. There is approximately only 1 percent of their people in their traditional lands, and that needs to be paid for, recognised, and supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWithout further ado, I commend this bill. Labour members will certainly be supporting it. I thank all the people who have been involved in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc94c9ac1f2746d8a4fe5739f5740302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc94c9ac1f2746d8a4fe5739f5740302\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As ever, it is a pleasure and a privilege to stand and speak on a bill of settlement. On behalf of the Greens, I acknowledge the presence in the gallery today of representatives of Ng\u0101ti Apa. I also acknowledge their long struggle and the courage and determination that have been shown over many, many decades to bring to fruition the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill, which will be passed in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe will, of course, continue to support this bill, as we have supported it throughout its various readings and as, indeed, we will continue to support bills that restore the recognition of mana, recognise kaitiaki status, and seek to redress some of the historical and contemporary grievances. The commitment to the fulfilment of the Treaty relationship is embedded in our Green Party constitution, as is recognition of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua. In that spirit, clearly we genuinely take real pleasure in seeing the settlements made over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne of, perhaps, the secondary benefits of these settlements\u2014clearly, the primary benefits are the restoration, redress, and recognition of mana\u2014not often enough commented upon is the fact that within the bill there is recorded the history of these events, the lands, the people, and the actions that occurred over time. This bill, like others, contains a narrative of how we came to this place and this position today. These narratives are very accessible and, in one way, easy to read. For that reason, they are of considerable benefit beyond the immediate benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThey are not easy to read in the sense that they record over time the loss of land through illegal actions by the Crown and other agents. They record suffering and hardship over many years, and the gradual erosion of the possessions and well-being of people. Nevertheless, it is important that these documents are made available. The fact that they are here and accessible is a major benefit, as I say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI will reference a particular section of this bill that caught my eye, which is the reference to the fact that in the 1840s the Crown\u2019s land purchase policy was generally to acquire land at the cheapest possible price in the belief that M\u0101ori would reap benefits in addition to the payment made for the land. In this instance, it says that Ng\u0101ti Apa agreed to the transaction at a lower price than their initial request or expectation because they wished to obtain various benefits from the establishment of a European settlement in their vicinity, including peace, protection, and prosperity. Those are very humble aspirations to wish for. They are quite low expectations. They are very reasonable expectations. By fulfilling their part of the Treaty relationship, they could reasonably expect a degree of peace, some protection from the Crown, and, indeed, a degree of prosperity. Sadly, of course, history now tells us that none of these expectations were fulfilled, and it is to the credit of this Parliament today that we seek to put right at least some of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI guess I make these remarks in the context of having recently sat on a select committee, as many of us have, and heard people who constantly refer to settlements and other forms of recompense to M\u0101ori as if they acknowledge some particular special privilege or unearned benefit for M\u0101oridom, rather than simply being quite minimal settlements to pay back and return what was taken, and being recompense and redress for the wrongs that were done in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe notion of so-called special privilege that an uninformed but very vocal minority continues to insist upon is clearly at odds with the reality of all the social statistics that typically put M\u0101ori at the high end of all the wrong sorts of statistics. Clearly, these settlements can give M\u0101ori in their own hands some resources, tools, and ability to rebuild an economy and the prosperity and well-being that was sought so very many years ago. It is to be hoped that those who choose to criticise these settlements and these bills will take the very small amount of time necessary to sit down with these documents and read these very simple but very powerful narratives that tell the story of why it is necessary that we recognise and make redress in the appropriate time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI join with others in acknowledging that this Government\u2014despite its various other shortcomings, which we comment upon on occasion\u2014has seen the progress of a number of these settlements. We hope that that progress will continue and that settlements are made in a timely fashion without neglecting the opportunity, of course, for everyone to have their say and to ensure that we get appropriate settlements that genuinely restore justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOn that note, I again acknowledge the long battle and the long struggle for Ng\u0101ti Apa to get to this point, and I wish them very well into the future. Kia ora koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef4a3db21d4844938116cc360d7cb9a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef4a3db21d4844938116cc360d7cb9a5\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Huri rauna, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e \u014Dku hoa o te Whare, koutou an\u014D r\u0101, e \u014Dku whanaunga o te waka o Kurahaup\u014D, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou. Kia ora t\u0101tou, mai i a m\u0101ua ko Shane, ng\u0101 uri o Kurahaup\u014D o Te Tokerau, ki a koutou an\u014D r\u0101 e Kurahaup\u014D o Ng\u0101ti Apa. E mea ana a Shane, ko Shane te tuakana. Engari e mihi atu ki a koutou, e whakarangatira ana i t\u014D t\u0101tou waka i t\u0113nei r\u0101, e Ng\u0101ti Apa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHara taku t\u016B i te t\u016B roa, engari t\u016B ana au ki te tautoko i taku rangatira a Tariana i k\u014Drero tuatahi i t\u0113neki r\u0101, kia mihi atu ki a koutou m\u014D ng\u0101 take nunui e p\u0101 ana ki a koutou mai i te t\u012Bmatanga o t\u0113nei h\u012Bkoi tae noa ki t\u0113nei r\u0101. Me te mihi an\u014D hoki i runga i te whakaaro kotahi, te t\u0101hae whenua, te takahi mana, me \u014Dna \u0101huaranga katoa. Engari i t\u0113nei w\u0101, kei te ora tonu m\u0101tou. Kei te ora tonu t\u014D t\u0101tou reo, kei te ora tonu t\u014D t\u0101tou tino rangatiratanga. N\u014D reira kia kaha koutou, kia kaha t\u0101tou. Kia kaha t\u0101tou i roto i t\u0113nei h\u012Bkoi, ahakoa kua rongo nei au i a ia, e whakaae ana a Ng\u0101ti Apa kia waihotia te 97 pai h\u0113neti o t\u0101 koutou ker\u0113me, kia oti pai ai t\u0113nei raru. Tangi ana te ng\u0101kau, ko t\u0101tou katoa r\u0101 \u0113n\u0101. Hakoa ko t\u0113hea te iwi, t\u0113r\u0101 te ture o t\u0113nei Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EEngari, kua tae mai koutou i t\u0113nei r\u0101, me mihi atu ki a koutou. Mihi an\u014D hoki i runga i te whakaaro o Ng\u0101puhi i tae mai i t\u0113nei r\u0101 te k\u014Drero atu ki te Minita, i roto i t\u014Dna tari, kia t\u012Bmatangia i t\u0113neki h\u012Bkoi. Tata ana ko te iwi mutunga t\u0113r\u0101 a Ng\u0101puhi, te t\u012Bmatangia ai t\u0113nei h\u012Bkoi. N\u014D reira kua kite au i a r\u0101tou k\u014Drero ana ki te Minita i t\u0113nei r\u0101, i te ahiahi nei ko koutou r\u0101 w\u0113n\u0101 e tata whakaoti nei i te kaupapa. N\u014D reira, mihi atu ki a koutou mai i t\u0101 m\u0101tou p\u0101ti, hei tautoko an\u014D hoki i taku rangatira Tariana. N\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Huri atu, huri noa, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Thank you. Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, greetings. Greetings to my parliamentary colleagues throughout, and to you, as well, my relatives of the Kurahaup\u014D Canoe. Salutations to us from Shane and I, descendants from the north of Kurahaup\u014D, and to you Kurahaup\u014D ones also of Ng\u0101ti Apa. Shane is saying that he is the elder one. Nonetheless, congratulations to you, Ng\u0101ti Apa, who are promoting our canoe today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt is not as though that I am going to address you at length, but I shall merely take a short call in support of my leader, Tariana Turia, who spoke first today, and also to commend you in respect of matters of huge significance to you from the beginning of this journey to the present day. I acknowledge the fact that you were all of the same view that the land was stolen, control was tampered with, and all that went with it. But at this point in time, we have endured. Our language lives on, and our sense of self-determination continues to survive. So you need to be resolute, and we need to be, as well. We must be strong in this journey, even though I have heard him say that Ng\u0101ti Apa agree to leaving 97 percent of their claim so that this settlement is resolved well. The heart weeps because that is all of us. Regardless which tribe it is, that is the law of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E But that aside, you have arrived here today, and I must congratulate you. Indeed, I commend you, knowing full well that Ng\u0101puhi arrived here today to have discussions with the Minister in his office that will set this journey off. The Ng\u0101puhi tribe is nearly the last one to start this journey. I saw them today in discussions with the Minister, and now there you are this afternoon about to conclude the settlement. So congratulations from our party, and on your support of my leader, Tariana, as well. Salutations twice over. Thanks to us all throughout the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4786667c46d4eeaba03f314f4342646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4786667c46d4eeaba03f314f4342646\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E E ng\u0101 iwi o Ng\u0101ti Apa, kia ora mai t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I acknowledge the iwi in the gallery today and I thank them for the manner in which they have entered into these negotiations. I congratulate them on the place that they find themselves in today, with the moving of the third reading of this bill before the House, the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI have read the biography of T W R\u0101tana. I have read of the steady resolve with which he went about seeking Government actions that were consistent with the Treaty of Waitangi to redress the wrongs of the past. It was palpable to see the energy with which he directed himself and his people towards that goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI am pleased to live in a community in Whanganui and in Taranaki where iwi have moved to heal the wounds of the past and have moved well over halfway towards P\u0101keh\u0101, who are slowly resolving that they need to be there, too. I welcome the new identity of those communities, particularly around Whanganui, and the acceptance of a oneness that will preserve the uniqueness of the communities but will at the same time recognise all those things that we have in common. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI am also pleased to see that through this new understanding, we are prepared to cut a new track through old hurts, old bigotry, and old redneck persuasions. That is largely down to the manner in which iwi have addressed these negotiations and the understanding and the enduring patience that they have shown, which has allowed the rest of us to catch up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI thank iwi for the patience they have shown and the spirit in which they have engaged\u2014congratulations. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00226fc9e633e16a4ffebf6abc346d8c714a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fc9e633e16a4ffebf6abc346d8c714a\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Kurahaup\u014D Waka, Ng\u0101ti Apa iwi, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113nei e t\u0101piri atu i \u0101ku nei whakaaro ki \u0113ra kua waihotia ki te whakatau i a koutou i waenganui i a m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei rangi whakahirahira. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[Acknowledgments to you, the people of Ng\u0101ti Apa, and to the Canoe of Kurahaup\u014D. I add my sentiments to those expressed in welcoming you here amongst us on this great day. So greetings to you all, greetings.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to offer a small contribution on the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill. Without restating the history that was put by Minister Turia in the House today, I will make a number of brief acknowledgments and offer some comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe long history of Ng\u0101ti Apa working towards their settlement has in some part been addressed and resolved today. As Minister Turia started her speech there was a call, probably of a mokopuna, in the gallery. There is something very honest and pure about the voice of a young child. It immediately made me reflect on the generational opportunity that is afforded as a result of reaching this particular point in history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMany speakers before me have commented on the long progress it has taken to get to this point. That progress has not been without struggle or sacrifice, and it has been made with the enduring vision to take a people forward. But there is hope in it, and that is what that young voice reminded me of. There is hope for the future, because if, as a Parliament, we continue along the road of ensuring that Treaty settlements continue to be a defining part of what our nation must do to look forward\u2014and I sincerely hope that every party in this House will do this\u2014then we can all celebrate today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWe cannot be partisan on this point. Every political party in this House has the huge responsibility to continue with the Treaty settlement process so that we have an enduring solution for the future. I have been concerned in past years when political parties have not seen this settlement process as a part of the essential fabric of what our nation will look like, and I remain concerned about that. I believe that the voices of those young children, like the child whom we heard in the gallery, urge every one of us to take the responsibility here at this point in time to say that Treaty settlements must continue, like this settlement for Ng\u0101ti Apa, so that their kids, and their kids after them, have a future, an opportunity, and a hope that can be realised because it was given to them by their ancestors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI will also comment on the aspects leading to this point. The negotiators made a huge effort. It is certainly worth noting that the greatest challenge for many iwi is to have successful succession planning. I say that with all due respect to all tribes; I reflect on only my own. It is a huge ask for people who have carried the baton for so long to say that it is OK and they can give it over. But here we see that another generation has come forward, and there has been faith in those negotiators to get their people to this point. All I can say is it is a huge example that many other iwi can look to for some inspiration as to what can be achieved by a younger generation with different skills but with the same heart for progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt also signals that the new generation of leaders is able to see what the challenges ahead are. Once we reach a settlement, the hardest task is the post-settlement phase. In this instance, it is now for Ng\u0101ti Apa to look out the window of opportunity and meet the challenges of post-settlement development. It will come with challenges. There will be ups and downs; there will be high points and low points, and great successes and great challenges. But that is their experience, and if anything can be learnt from the Treaty settlements of other tribes, then it should be to share that experience to fast track some of the learning difficulties, to make it easier, and to make the path a little flatter along the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMinister Turia raised the comment about Labour\u2019s reflection of the Treaty of Waitangi. Well, all I can say is that at points in time and history, there have been high expectations on both the main political parties, I expect, but more so on Labour with regard to its relationship with the people\u2014down in Whanganui specifically, with the R\u0101tana movement. That progress has been steady. It has not been as fast as people would have liked it to be, and I think the historical context has at some points inhibited the level of progress that people would have liked to see. But I can say that without some of the critical things that Labour has done in the past, we certainly would not be at this point. I absolutely believe that and it is a point in the historical record. I am looking forward to the new relationship that Labour can have with the future of where M\u0101oridom wants to go, and that is certainly my intent while still being a member of this political party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the efforts of the advisers for iwi and for the Crown. Terse words have been spoken behind back doors and there have been reflections on the quality of the negotiations at some point. That always happens, but without the technical advice and support offered to both iwi and the Crown, we could not have had the quality of the settlement that we have today. I know that both Minister Turia and Minister Finlayson are all too well aware of that, and so are we. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has had a hard task trying to manage expectations. Once bills get to the select committee, if there is still dissent amongst iwi over these types of things, the expectation is that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee can all of a sudden change a deed, but that is actually not the case. Once a settlement has been negotiated with the Crown and put into legislation before the select committee, no substantial change can be made without the express consent of the iwi concerned. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has a huge challenge and task. At best, it may be able to achieve some technical amendments, but it can make no amendments of substance, although that has not been the situation with this particular settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EFinally, I thank the clerks of committee who have brought together the report so that we, as parliamentarians who have not sat in on the select committee process, can be better informed. Without their hard work and effort we cannot as parliamentarians hope to comment unless they are doing the work that they are there to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EFinally, it is my pleasure to offer Labour\u2019s continued support of the Treaty settlements in principle, and of Ng\u0101ti Apa in particular. We wish them well for the future. We wish those young voices in the gallery today all the hopes and aspirations and dreams of their forefathers, that they can be realised in their time, and that they can continue to put out a strong voice of hope for the future of their people in Ng\u0101ti Apa. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00223512459c690945989489720370128adf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223512459c690945989489720370128adf\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Roy. T\u0113na t\u0101tou huri noa e te Whare. I also extend my greetings to the iwi of Ng\u0101ti Apa on this, the day when we come to the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Apa (North Island) Claims Settlement Bill. To the iwi, I say that it is a great day for this House and for their house that we come to a place of settlement. I believe settlements must lead to \u201Csettledness\u201D, where people can move forward. I join with the previous speaker, Nanaia Mahuta, and concur with her comments in wishing Ng\u0101ti Apa\u2019s representatives in the gallery all the very best for their future. I trust that this future is strong for them and their iwi. I acknowledge those who have gone before them who have persevered and endured, and who have held up the strength of their people in their rohe and their area. I am sure that today they see them here with pride. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe reports we received stated that back in 1849 Ng\u0101ti Apa entered into an agreement with the Crown with the wish to obtain the benefits from the establishment of a European settlement in their vicinity, including peace, protection, and prosperity. I believe that today the House joins together to wish this upon the iwi. It is our prayer that they will find great prosperity in their time ahead, that throughout the generations that follow there will be great strength and great success, that they will have protection and peace, and that all success will come to them. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b556e9de08e84f81b66104d9a95436ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b556e9de08e84f81b66104d9a95436ae\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I te tuatahi me whakahaere w\u0113nei k\u014Drero \u014Dku ki roto i t\u014D t\u0101tou reo M\u0101ori. E te iwi, koutou ng\u0101 uri a Apa-h\u0101pai-taketake kua tat\u016B mai ki Te \u016Apoko o te Ika t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. P\u0113nei me t\u0101 taku whanaunga a Hone Harawira e k\u014Drero nei, ng\u0101 maramara a Kurahaup\u014D, he Kurahaup\u014D i roto i t\u014D koutou rohe, he Kurahaup\u014D an\u014D hoki i roto i t\u014Dku rohe. N\u014D te putanga mai o Kurahaup\u014D k\u0101tahi ka p\u0101karukaruhia ki Rangit\u0101huahua. N\u0101, ka whakatikangia, ka whakaterengia tonutia ki waenga tonu i a m\u0101tou, ki Muriwhenua, ka kitea ko ng\u0101 r\u0101kau e pua ana. Ko te hanga o w\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101kau i te takutai, he kura, he whero. K\u0101tahi ka tangotangohia ng\u0101 huruhuru tapu, i utaina ki runga i t\u014D t\u0101ua waka mai i te motu a Enua Kura i roto i Te Moana Nui a Kiwa, k\u0101tahi ka piua ki ng\u0101 kare o te wai. N\u014D te putanga, tatanga, \u016Bnga mai ki uta k\u0101tahi ka kitea ko ng\u0101 r\u0101kau, he kura, he whero, e p\u014Dhiri mai ana ki \u014D t\u0101tou t\u016Bpuna, kia tae mai ki Aotearoa. N\u0101 me p\u0113n\u0101 rawa te k\u014Drero m\u014D \u014D t\u0101tou nei taketake e hoki ana ki te ao k\u014Dhatu noa atu. N\u0101 reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[I will make these contributions of mine in the M\u0101ori language, from the outset. To the people and descendants of Apa-h\u0101pai-taketake who have arrived here in Wellington, greetings to you all. As my relative Hone Harawira said, oh chips of Kurahaup\u014D, there is a Kurahaup\u014D, as well, in our area. When the Kurahaup\u014D appeared it got damaged at Rangit\u0101huahua. When it was repaired, it sailed directly into our midst in the far north and saw the trees in flower. Those trees on the beach were red and glowing. The sacred red feathers from the island of Enua Kura in the Pacific, which adorned our canoe, were then removed and tossed on the waves of the tide. When the Kurahaup\u014D appeared, drifted closer to shore, and beached, they saw the red and glowing trees welcoming our ancestors to Aotearoa. Now, that is the sort of talk that explains our origins, which go all the way back to the Stone Age. Therefore, greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI stand with my colleagues and welcome members of Ng\u0101ti Apa here today. I observe that they give as their historical roots descent from Apa-h\u0101pai-taketake and also find great strength and meaning in their proverbs and sayings. I repeat what I observed recently: there is a Ng\u0101ti Apa in the South Island as well, and there is a Ng\u0101ti Apa whose name is etched in the pages of history. It was they who took the original claim as to whether residual rights belong to M\u0101ori in the seabed and foreshore. Small though their numerical strength may be, large is the shadow on the activities of politicians that the name of their tribe casts. Perhaps that is why they have inherited the saying \u201CApa-wetewete tapiki i te t\u0101kiritanga o te ata\u201D [Apa\u2014remover of the hold on the dawn] as referred to by Minister Turia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis claim is a further step along what is proving to be a protracted process. However, the current Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations and colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party are advancing the issue of M\u0101ori claims towards its inevitable historical conclusion. But every claim that is settled requires a new cluster of skills, and I acknowledge the younger people who have also arrived here. We as M\u0101ori must not be like that Japanese soldier from World War II. When he was discovered in the jungles of the Philippines 25 or 35 years later, it was a matter of ignorance for him that World War II had stopped. It is important that we do not repeat the errors of that lost soldier: fighting wars and fighting battles that the world has moved on from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThese settlements, as we address them and pass them into law, require a new level of engagement and a new set of skills, because once the capital is restored to the iwi, each generation needs to grow it and to ensure that it contributes to the overall development of the country. It is only by avoiding the trap of M\u0101ori believing that they can be an island unto themselves that we will ensure that the legacy grows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is a solemn day, in a sense, because many of the people whom we knew of are no longer here. This group of M\u0101ori, this tribe of Ng\u0101ti Apa, have, as Minister Turia has said, a proud heritage. They are the people, amongst other things, who have produced the kuia matakite Mere Rikiriki, who laid her mana upon the prophet Tahup\u014Dtiki W\u012Bremu R\u0101tana. Indeed, there was some discussion, if my history serves me correctly, that another promising young man, Rangi M\u0101whete, may actually inherit her mantle. He ended up in the Legislative Council in this House and played a key role marrying the vision of the M\u0101ori of Ng\u0101ti Apa and other Kurahaup\u014D waka associated with the R\u0101tana Church with that of the Labour Party. That was his contribution not only to his own people from Ng\u0101ti Apa and Rangit\u0101ne but to the affairs of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI mention their names because they are so easily forgotten, and the names of such powerful figures in our M\u0101ori history, who have influenced our overall New Zealand history, must not be obscured on a day like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen we go forward with these settlements, it is pleasing to see that the names of the areas are slowly being restored. I did some background research and learnt that the name of Marton came from the name of where James Cook originally came from. That came as an utter surprise to me, and I was in fits of laughter. Recently, I was in the township of Marton visiting a daughter who goes to school up there, and I heard some of the local M\u0101ori telling me that the original name of the place was T\u016Btaenui. I am yet to ascertain whether that is actually correct. But when I hear Simon Power testing my patience in the future, I will explain to him in another speech that T\u016Btaenui is an appropriate appellation if that is the quality of his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe should ensure that days like this are a chance for us as proxies for ordinary New Zealand men and women to say that we are prepared to embrace these small but important episodes. It is easy, as I have said in earlier speeches, to say that this settlement is giving too much away or that it is not enough. But I repeat that unless we can capture and sustain legitimacy through taking people with us and ensuring that these settlements cause the ordinary New Zealand taxpayer to by and large believe that they are making a better country for our children and grandchildren, no r\u016Bnanga and no Parliament through fiat can command how we as New Zealanders think about each other. It is almost a matter of faith and goodwill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI am confident that underneath the settlement\u2014when we take away all the ebb and flow of anger, hurt, and dealings with the bureaucracy and indifferent Ministers, etc.\u2014there remains the bedrock feelings of willingness to compromise, and willingness to join together and create something bigger than our own sense of entitlement or our own sense of anger. That is the deeper thing that I hope all of us as parliamentarians, with whatever tribe that comes here, pass on to our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESettlements are only a stepping stone. If we want to address the deficit in investment and the deficit in jobs and to encourage firms, we need to ensure that we plumb the depths and not only make a commitment to turn these settlements into flourishing enterprises but also to ensure that the people who are entitled to benefit from the fruits actually do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOne thing I am not entirely comfortable with is to hear a number of our relations say that this settlement has nothing to do with the iwi, that it is an article 3 or an article 1. These are iwi settlements and \u201Ciwi\u201D means people. Wherever an iwi finds its people it ought not only to engage with them but also to ensure that the resources associated with this settlement and the ongoing high-quality relationship, hopefully, with the Crown are dedicated to improving the prospects of the people. As that famous M\u0101ori proverb says, \u201CPluck forth the tender shoot of the flax bush, you will hear the bellbird cry. What does it say? It says the greatest gift of all is humanity, humanity, humanity. Hutia te rito o te harakeke, kei hea te k\u014Dmako e k\u014D? M\u0101u e ui mai ki a au, he aha te mea pai? M\u0101ku e k\u012B atu he tangata, he tangata, he tangata\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EToday is an opportunity for us to celebrate with Ng\u0101ti Apa and encourage them to take this settlement to the next stage, but at all times let us remember that it is people whom we need to bring with us as we advance the M\u0101ori agenda and the Treaty settlement agenda. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKaranga whakatau; waiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5024b0028554ab1a05fd2462b9e405c\u0022\u003EWeathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212d091d294124690aebb757edceb2b74\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002255432cd1845d4598803dd9dcf1d382f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255432cd1845d4598803dd9dcf1d382f3\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee, that the committee present its final report on or before 28 April 2011, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 187, 189(a), and 190(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis bill brings to the House the legislation that will underpin a package the Government has negotiated with a number of parties. We have negotiated with local government and with the banks and we now have a package to bring to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI will be very brief and say in summary that the package will allow homeowners to voluntarily choose whether to take it. The most important point I can make to anybody is that no one will be forced to take this package. If they take it, 25 percent of the repairs will be paid by the Government; 25 percent of the repairs will be paid by the local authority, if the local authority was the consenting authority\u2014sadly, for some people, if the consenting authority was an independent certifier, they will not get that 25 percent\u2014and the remaining money, be it 50 percent or 75 percent, will be given as a guaranteed loan from the bank to pay for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIt is most important to point out here that some protection will be put in place so that local authorities cannot be sued for any more than that commitment, and they cannot be sued by being joined in a roundabout, circuitous route. The homeowner will still be allowed to sue the builder or the developer, but the local authorities were concerned that the developer might then try to bring the local authority into the litigation and it would be back for some more liability. This package will exclude that possibility. It will give a cap to local authorities that their maximum liability will be 25 percent of the repair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIt gives the Crown some safety. The Crown did not need to buy into this package. Twice the Crown has been joined into the litigation and the courts have said that, no, the Crown has no standing in this. So we could have said that we were not going to do it. This package will give homeowners the right, if they choose, to pick a 25:25:50 arrangement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI am sorry that there will be some limits. There is a 10-year limit, and people who are just outside that will be upset, but every time we try to look at the magnitude of the sum of money involved our eyes begin to water. Our PricewaterhouseCoopers report showed that the damage is estimated to be $11.5 billion, but possibly as much as twice that amount. They are huge numbers, and a Government with a deficit on the books every month of about $1 billion struggles with them. I apologise to anyone who is excluded from the package, but we cannot leave it open-ended for everybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI have been out and about and I have seen people in tears in their house. They are stuck. They cannot get it fixed and they cannot get the bank to lend anything. They have pleaded with me to please just do something. They say they did what they thought was right. They invested all their life savings in a property. They thought it was the right thing to do but now they are sitting in a piece of rotting junk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. As I said before, I hope that when it comes back from the select committee we can bang it through its remaining stages and begin to start offering those settlements. The money will be paid only on receipt of work done, so it will guarantee that the actual fix to the house is done and money is not just paid to someone who may then onsell it so we have the problem once again. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022935283b62b4e4803afddab0fa02db095\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022935283b62b4e4803afddab0fa02db095\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call in the first reading debate on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the work of the Minister in this area, the Hon Maurice Williamson. Our country has been grappling with this huge problem for a number of years now. In saying that Labour will support this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee we recognise that the Minister has worked hard and that this bill represents a genuine effort over a number of months to try to come up with a package that will seriously address the scale and complexity of the problem and attempt to provide relief for homeowners who have been afflicted by the leaky homes problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe support this bill being referred to a select committee. We look forward to teasing out some of the questions and the issues on this bill, because there are many. I will use the time we have today to raise just some of those questions about the structure of this package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe key thing about this bill is that it provides an indemnity to the Crown in the case of homes or buildings that will benefit from this financial assistance package. That is the first thing. The second thing is that it gives the Minister the power to provide a guarantee for commercial loans that are obtained to cover the 50 percent of the cost of repairs that are left over once the Crown and the council have both made their 25 percent contributions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat is the first thing I will query. We see in the regulatory impact statement that the Department of Building and Housing advised quite strongly against the Crown being indemnified. It said there was no reason why Department of Building and Housing assessors who scope a repair job should not be required to stand behind their work. I know that quite a few people in the industry feel the same way. The Department of Building and Housing said that the Crown\u2019s liability would be very limited\u2014there would not be a huge liability\u2014and there was no reason the Crown should be indemnified. I am interested to hear from Government members in this debate why Cabinet and the Minister have gone against that advice and insisted on indemnifying the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe next question is one that the Minister raised. It is the provision in the bill that seeks to prevent so-called double-dipping. People who benefit from this package may then sue other third parties like builders, designers, and architects. The provision seeks to prevent those people from trying to enjoin the council in that legal action. This bill specifically takes away that right. The regulatory impact statement says that it may be a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act to take away the longstanding legal right of joint or concurrent tortfeasors to seek a contribution. I wonder whether that is something else the select committee should consider\u2014that this provision is unjustified and unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe third question I raise is about the 25 percent council contribution. Much of the language we have heard in the discussion of this package by the Minister suggests that if one signs up to the package one gets the 25 percent contribution from the council. That is what has been conveyed. But in the wording, as I understand it, the bill gives the council the right to opt in and make that contribution. The council is not required to opt in; it will simply allow the council to consider, as it does now, on a case by case basis what it wants to contribute. If it chooses to opt in to the Government scheme, the bill clearly says 25 percent. But councils will not be required under the bill to pony up with that 25 percent. I think that is a very significant difference from the way it has been presented publicly. It will give councils the opportunity to consider each case on a case by case basis, but a council will hold the whip hand when it comes to negotiations. It would be good to hear a response to that question from the Minister or from his colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe think that clarity is needed in situations where a repair job goes pear-shaped. Given that the bill indemnifies Department of Building and Housing assessors, what will happen if a homeowner goes into a repair project, borrows half the money, and gets half from the council and the Government, but then finds halfway through the job that the assessor has got it wrong and a significant value in extra repairs is needed? What happens if they get halfway into a job and they find that some more structural work needs to be done? I have not heard anything from the Minister yet and nothing in the bill or the commentary gives any reassurance in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bbd9ec68c548fda72ef7fb0c9c5466\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a bit of this will get sorted at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed0397a7e28c4646a15cfca24126a53b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Another concern is that the bill does not require remediation work to restore homes to the performance or durability requirements of the building code. It is quite possible, in the framework we see in the bill, that councils will insist, for example, on targeted repairs, which may be unsatisfactory in terms of compliance with the building code. I would like to see the select committee take up that concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is not clear to me how this bill will affect multi-dwelling buildings, which are, particularly in Auckland, a very big chunk of the leaky buildings problem. It seems to me that if an apartment complex was going to benefit from this package, the body corporate would basically have to get 100 percent of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6ff66ea9704ed78d8c423220fcfc0a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the Unit Titles Act kicks in next year, and it allows 75 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da79bda9e79d47c9a287d293ba16732f\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s explanation, but it still leaves the question of whether a significant number of multi-dwelling units will not be able to be helped by the bill, because they will not be able to reach the requisite 75 percent. Particularly with multi-dwelling units at the bottom end of the market, people there will have very little equity in their buildings. They may not be able to afford the 50 percent. That is another question about this package. I do not mean to be pernickety, because we genuinely acknowledge the effort and the ambition that has gone into the bill, but a lot of people will not benefit from this bill. Many, many people will simply not be able to afford to take on the 50 percent loan to meet the rest of the costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAnother concern is that the bill does not differentiate between genuine owners of leaky homes and greedy speculators who may be going around now snapping up buildings that are not weathertight, buying them at knock-down prices. They are eligible under the bill for what would be a massive taxpayer subsidy to repair the buildings, which they could then flick on at market value. I question whether the limited taxpayer resources available to solve this incredibly important problem should be delivered in that kind of way to speculators, who could make a killing under this bill. I hope we will get the chance to discuss that concern as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EDoubt remains about the role of the banks in all this. I know the Minister has made reassuring noises, but we saw in the New Zealand Herald this morning the Bankers\u2019 Association saying that the banks had not yet agreed to participate. I would like to hear from the Government members now, and not wait to hear in the select committee, precisely what kind of guarantee the Minister proposes for those loans. If people find themselves in a default situation, will that contract be allowed to fall over? Will they be allowed to default? Will the banks step in? What kind of premium is the Government intending to pay on behalf of the taxpayer to support commercial banks with those guarantees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022945c9d4a039141be887658d94cccafa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022945c9d4a039141be887658d94cccafa2\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me pleasure to rise so close to the dinner break to support the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. I start by congratulating the Minister for Building and Construction on his hard work over 2 years. There was a lot of doom and gloom in the speech of the previous speaker, Phil Twyford, although I know that he wants to be positive about the solution. I think he focused far too much on the negative aspects of \u201Cwhat if\u201D, \u201Chow\u201D, and so on and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI say that this Government has reacted in a very short period of time, and has delivered a very good package for New Zealanders who for some period have not been sure what would happen to them and their homes. It gives me please to support the bill. I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022f78715fb98da40389b15594fe9336ae5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f78715fb98da40389b15594fe9336ae5\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I intend to move that all the words after \u201CCommittee\u201D be deleted. Labour will be supporting the first reading of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. I commend the Minister in charge of this bill, the Minister for Building and Construction, for the work that he has put in to come up with a resolution for what is undoubtedly one of the more difficult issues that this Parliament has had to deal with. It certainly goes right to the heart of the livelihoods of thousands and thousands of families, and we cannot underestimate the difficulty of navigating a path that attempts to protect the Crown\u2019s position, the householders\u2019 position, and local government\u2019s position. I congratulate Maurice Williamson on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI was also very pleased to see that during the speech given by my colleague Phil Twyford the Minister was very open to the questions that the Opposition has been raising about how this bill could be improved and whether some aspects of it opened up other areas of risk or other areas of unfairness. I was very pleased to see the Minister indicate that he was open to any solutions and that we would not get the usual thing with National members at select committee, where they use their voting power to block changes regardless of whether those changes make sense and would actually be in the interests of the New Zealand public. I certainly hope that that openness translates itself to the Local Government and Environment Committee and that we can make some changes that undoubtedly will make this legislation better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is an incredibly complex issue and its reach is enormous. For example, I have been contacted by people in the Auckland region who have rented a property that they did not know was a leaky property. We have had some homeowners who own leaky buildings trying to get some kind of financial recompense from the situation by renting the buildings out to people without telling them that they are leaky. Clearly that is unacceptable, but it just shows how far this issue reaches into other areas of legislation. Again, we do not underestimate the task of trying to find a solution that, as much as possible, is acceptable to all parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EDuring this debate we definitely need to keep in mind why we are here in the first place. The deregulation that came with the Building Act in 1991 had an enormous impact on the building sector, and we have never really caught up in terms of the professionalisation of that sector and the protection of consumers who purchase products assuming that those protections are in place, but then find out, once they have invested their entire livelihood in a property, that in fact those protections were not there to begin with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI found another example recently, having toured around boarding houses in Wellington. I wondered how it is possible in New Zealand for properties like that to be rented out to people\u2014and to the most vulnerable people in New Zealand. I was told by the Wellington City Council that prior to the 1991 Building Act changes councils actually had responsibility for boarding houses. Boarding house owners were required to tell the councils where they were and the councils were able to go in and ensure public health standards were being met. The council said that when the 1991 Building Act changes came in it lost that ability. Now if it knows where a boarding house is, it will go in and use whatever public health powers it has to look after the tenants. For example, one boarding house did not even have running water or connected sewerage. Once the council knows about a problem it will do something about it, but it said these tenants would not tell them, because they were vulnerable and they were terrified that they would be evicted. That was another thing that came out of those 1991 Building Act changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is a salient lesson to all members of this House when people go on about red tape, red tape, red tape. None of us wants to see people having to jump through legislative and regulatory hoops that they do not need to, but we have these protections in place for a reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226203a33da6ad432e93f544b5dd90f402\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: That doesn\u2019t sound like the philosophy of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac944f95b9c44379a25e44bd991e6a2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently, according to the Government junior whip, the deregulation of the 1991 Building Act and the leaky homes that came out of it is a good thing. That probably sums up the one-eyed view of some of the National members. If she had actually listened to what I was saying she would have heard that I was agreeing with what the Minister is doing. Instead, she is just chipping away negatively like she always does, not listening to what anyone else has to say, and just assuming that because I am from Labour I am not interested in having a constructive debate on this issue. That, of course, is not at all true. As I said, we are supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the major parts of this bill is the Crown indemnifying itself. The select committee needs to do some serious looking into this part, because it is quite a major step. We agree that if people want to go down the path of accepting this package, which involves 25 percent from the Government and 25 percent from local government\u2014although my colleague Phil Twyford has raised some concerns about whether there is actually certainty around that 25 percent from local government\u2014then they should not also be able to sue at the same time. One either goes down the path of accepting the solution in this legislation, or one can go down one\u2019s own path. We think that is absolutely fair enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut when it comes to the indemnification for future grievances that people might have against the Crown, we question whether that is a fair thing to do. For example, if during the course of repairs it is found that the Department of Building and Housing assessors have not done a proper job in assessing the damage, the homeowner is no longer allowed to have any recourse against the Crown for that mistake. We think the select committee will need to look at that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe also have to appreciate that the people we are talking about trusted building officials in the first place and this is the position that it got them into. To say to them that they have to trust a whole raft of officials again, despite what happened the first time around when councils signed off on building plans and products, is asking an awful lot. Some people have lost a lot of trust when it comes to this area of Government regulation. If the officials are wrong again, even though it may be completely different officials, those people will have no ability to come back against the Crown. We will certainly want to look at that at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EA lot of risk is also built in for builders with this indemnity. They are the one group that is not covered by it fully. The Crown does not carry that risk. If a homeowner wants to prosecute a builder for the work they did that resulted in a leaky building, the builder may say that it was not their fault, it was the council. But they are not allowed to do that under this legislation\u2014they are not allowed to engage a third party in those proceedings. That means that the only person left sitting out there like a lightning rod for complaints and for being sued is the builder, the architect, or the developer. Even though it may not have been the builder\u2019s fault, everyone else has been protected, while they have not. As we know, there will probably be people out there who will go after every avenue they can to get back some of the value of their property. Having one person sitting out there all on their own is a problem. We think we should indemnify all or none, and we may want to look at that at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will finish off by talking about the Housing New Zealand Corporation, its role in some of this, and whether it is considered to be the Crown under this legislation. I am thinking of a particular property up in Auckland called Pepperwood Mews, where the Housing New Zealand Corporation and a developer came together and marketed properties to consumers. They said that if they purchased this property the Housing New Zealand Corporation would tenant it and become the tenancy manager. This was a very good deal for people so they invested in these properties. Then it turned out that the properties were leaky buildings. Housing New Zealand Corporation pulled its support, and said it had nothing to do with it and was only going to be the tenancy manager. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAs time has gone on and documents have been revealed, we have found out that the Housing New Zealand Corporation played a much bigger role than it had originally admitted. It originally purchased these properties and then shifted to a leasing arrangement, which means that it went through a process where it looked at these properties and said they were structurally sound, otherwise it would not have purchased them. That gave the tenants some hope that it must have been a really good option. Also, there were problems with those buildings before the unit titles were signed off that the tenants were never told about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThere is some ongoing action around this issue, but I want to know whether indemnifying the Crown under this legislation means that those people are no longer able to pursue the Housing New Zealand Corporation for any culpability it may have had in the leaky building saga. If that is the case then I think it needs to be made clear. There needs to be a definitive decision for the corporation to be either included or taken out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn the case of Pepperwood Mews those residents certainly believe that there is a case to be made that the Housing New Zealand Corporation has some culpability. Housing New Zealand Corporation was involved in assisting the developer during the resource consent process and the building consent process at council. The corporation put the process out under its name. It originally bought the properties, thereby leading people to believe that the properties were safe. Does indemnifying the Crown mean that the Housing New Zealand Corporation is also exempt from any kind of action being taken against it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002218b25c2a911f4130a3c19cb1eef49309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b25c2a911f4130a3c19cb1eef49309\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Housing is not my portfolio but I rise to take a brief call on behalf of my colleague Gareth Hughes. I begin by supporting the comments that Moana Mackey has just made in congratulating the Hon Maurice Williamson on bringing the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill to the House. It is good to see legislation come before the House to make some advance on this issue. The Green Party will be voting for the bill to at least go to a select committee. We do so in the belief, none the less, that the bill does not go far enough, and we hope that some of its faults may be remedied at the Local Government and Environment Committee. But having something to debate and consider is better than having nothing to debate and consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI also praise the Hon Maurice Williamson for already having distributed to members some explanatory material that could be useful for us when working with constituents. I think that is a very helpful and unusual development in relation to this kind of complex legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EAs Moana Mackey and other speakers have said, this mess was created by the National Government of the 1990s with its failure to regulate the building industry and, indeed, the broader network of industries surrounding building\u2014or, rather, the Government\u2019s deregulating those industries. So it is only fair that National is the one to take the steps to put that right. That said, the Government\u2019s providing 25 percent of the cost while asking homeowners to front up with 50 percent is grossly unfair, given that it was the previous National Government\u2019s own failure to regulate that created the problem in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe know that this issue affects the lives of a very large number of New Zealanders, and we know too that homes built in those laissez-faire years of the 1990s are the worst affected, as they coincided with that deregulation of the building industry. The Hunn report in 2002 called what happened at that time a \u201Cmajor systemic breakdown across the entire building industry\u201D. No one escapes blame: product designers and manufacturers, developers, builders, architects, central government, the Building Industry Authority, local authorities, real estate agents, and even some private owners. In the Greens\u2019 view, the limitation of 5 years in the bill is too short and we hope it can be remedied in the select committee process. We think it is too short because often issues come to light only when houses are sold. Any home identified as a leaky home should be eligible to use the service, so we think it is completely unfair to limit support for leaky home owners in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe issue of leaky homes and the failure of that deregulation approach bring to front of mind a bigger issue, which is how we get the best outcomes. It is one of those fundamental political divides between political parties in the House, and I have spoken about it several times. The Green Party can accept that in some situations a free market could deliver the best mix of price and quality for consumer goods or services. We think that probably would apply only in the conditions that Adam Smith himself identified as being necessary for the correct operation of the free market that he described. Where those conditions do not apply, and they do not apply in most economic situations\u2014in the situation of most goods and services\u2014then that free-market approach will fail to deliver the best mix of price and quality. That provides a basis for the intervention of the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe State also needs to intervene where vulnerable people need to be protected. The State also needs to intervene where it is necessary for public good to be generated, because free markets are poorly suited to those purposes. The Green Party can accept that sometimes certain market mechanisms\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edfcb34a7ae475c9cfde39d4accd1c5\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: His fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffafa5b7d38d47f8b0600f2352e1e7ae\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was Roger Douglas\u2019 fault. The Minister has correctly put his finger on the problem, and it is sad that subsequent Governments were slow to realise that fault and to remedy the problem. But I thank him for pointing that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Green Party can accept that market mechanisms and consumer choice are sometimes the best way of achieving the outcomes that we all want, but in many cases they will not be. In many cases some level of regulation or rule-setting by the State will be necessary to achieve the kinds of outcomes we want. This issue of leaky homes is one that clearly illustrates one of those areas. I am not sure that this Government has entirely learnt that lesson, because again and again we see an approach to issues that falls back on an ideological belief that free markets will somehow deliver the best outcomes for everyone. That kind of magical thinking consistently fails. We have seen that in the term of this Parliament\u2014for example, with biofuels. We see it frequently on issues like country-of-origin labelling. A personal obsession of mine is that we see it in the failure to act to remedy another one of these pieces of ideological wreckage, and that is the free market in electricity generation and supply. That is another example of a failure to deliver many of the outcomes that as New Zealanders we expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI make that point because the next bill we will be debating is a Government bill to adjust the building codes, with, again, the aim of reducing regulation. The Green Party warns that the Government needs to be very careful that in that bill it does not, through the cutting back of regulation, create another saga equivalent to the leaky homes one that we are addressing now. Although we say that the system is far from perfect, we applaud the Minister for bringing this bill before the House. We think there is enough in it of merit and value to support it being referred to the select committee. We look forward to engaging positively in that process to try to cooperatively bring about an Act that can best address these problems. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cadc3adca62f4c3096931b1c52884dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cadc3adca62f4c3096931b1c52884dc4\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT is very pleased to support the first reading of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill and will support its referral to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I listened to the honourable member Kevin Hague from the Green Party. He started by saying he was going to make a short speech; fortunately, we were saved by the bell! I make one comment in reference to his speech, and that is that generally the best judge of what a person needs is that individual, not the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022feb27296a6c445d4ad429c1124646cdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feb27296a6c445d4ad429c1124646cdc\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to express the support of the M\u0101ori Party for the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. In doing so I am acting in a way that is consistent with our previous voting stance, particularly our support of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill into law some 4 years ago, which, incidentally, was in December of 2006. I wonder what it is about Christmas time that makes Governments want to ensure that homes are indeed weathertight. It is not like December here will be cold and horrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6532a33c91948928880a00fd0323a4a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all the snow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d391fc23ae4004a7580bfcefe92d01\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: I thought it must be, or maybe it is like what my grandchildren tell me. It is all about Hana Koko, and they want to get the chimney nice and ready for him to drop their presents into it. But all jokes aside, I am pleased to see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c418ba899a4ffcad77216e49a44efd\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee is getting rid of chimneys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201a87a78f13247be835f325a0ac65dbb\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, we cannot get rid of them. This is just in Christchurch, and I will talk about Christchurch a bit later too. I am pleased to support this bill, as it will bring into place the financial assistance measures that will be provided by the Minister on behalf of the Crown to lenders in the form of a credit support facility. The bill provides for the setting of monetary limits for the guarantees or indemnities, the form and content of the guarantees or indemnities, and the maximum contingent liability of the Crown under the guarantees or indemnities. This sounds particularly impressive, and as if no stone has been left unturned. However, the bill does not establish a limit on how much can be lent by the Crown to lenders. The Minister of Finance will determine the length of time the lender has to pay back the loan, so I am particularly interested in hearing the public\u2019s views, through the select committee process, about whether the Minister of Finance should be the one who has the ultimate authority to determine time frames and parameters around them. Arguably, the Government will act as a guarantor to financial institutions, so that the pressure of lending for the purposes of repairing leaky homes by these institutions can be eased and, therefore, money to fix leaky homes is more readily accessible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn its simplest form, then, this bill aims to provide owners of leaky homes with access to cost-effective procedures for assessment and resolution of claims. The bill will establish financial assistance measures in order to facilitate the repairs of leaky homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI cannot leave this bill without making the inevitable comparison with a region central to my electorate of Te Tai Tonga. I am of course referring to the drastic impact of the September earthquake on some 100,000 homes in Christchurch, with some 2,000 homes being uninhabitable. I am very aware that last Saturday was the last day, the deadline, for Earthquake Commission claims relating to damage from September\u2019s earthquake. I certainly hope that everybody managed to get their claims in on time. I was one of those who procrastinated a little, but I did manage to get my claim in within the last couple of weeks, so I am feeling relieved about that. I now await the result of the inspection. But my big question does remain about how we support and sustain those residents who did not have the protection of insurance, and how we can provide a positive future for them, much as we are doing today with this Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u002271f8dedc2e234066ad60e1b4244bd98e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271f8dedc2e234066ad60e1b4244bd98e\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. The Government has stepped up with a financial assistance package to help people get their leaky homes fixed more quickly. Our priority is getting homes fixed, and we must move beyond the current state of endless disputes and litigation. This package is about spreading the costs as evenly and as fairly as possible, to get action. We need to help affected homeowners to move on with their lives. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4109147f2c34c4ebd402b28e00270d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4109147f2c34c4ebd402b28e00270d4\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to be able to speak on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. But I have to make the observation that the calls from members on the other side have been short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ETwo weeks ago the Leader of the House told us that the legislative programme was in place and we would not need to take urgency in the last couple of sitting weeks. Members on the other side of the Chamber were probably as surprised as we were to find out that we will probably be here until Saturday. That is not a problem for us, but it means that National members do not enter into the debate any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, which was debated earlier today, is one of the most fundamental pieces of legislation that will be put through the House. It balances national security against our human rights, the protection of our human rights, the protection of our privacy, what can be done against it. National members did not speak on that part of the bill at all. They did not even take a call as long as Chester Borrows\u2019 previous call. The cost of the disorganisation we are facing in the legislation right now is the absence of debate. We have National members just standing up and saying that they support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis bill is different from the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, obviously, but it is different in another way in terms of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88e5ac9caae4777b3f7a38899340650\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Do you think it\u2019s a bit different from the SIS bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000b85eb86024005b355ce50c73ab24e\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Williamson to wait for this. Unlike the SIS legislation, I think there has been very wide consultation with the stakeholders involved. We will not have the opportunity to do that with the SIS legislation, as it seems like the committee stage will be handled in secret, unless Mr Key changes his mind again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister on bringing this legislation to the House. This bill will never satisfy absolutely everybody. People will be annoyed and not happy, but it strikes a balance and I think the Minister has done a good job in bringing the legislation to the House. If we look back at the issues, we see the problems that caused this debacle. The cost of it is eye-watering. We are looking at $11 billion, and PricewaterhouseCoopers thinks it could be up to $23 billion. That is equivalent to the education and health budgets for 1 year. In fact, the North Shore City Council came up with some interesting figures when it looked at the cost in 2008 dollars of the Napier earthquake. It was only $608 million, versus possibly $11 billion here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThere has been a systemic series of failures right through the last 20 years. We have talked about the deregulation of the building industry, and I think that was definitely one aspect of the problems. There were the problems of poor, shoddy workmanship as a result of a lot of the builders not having the right qualifications, and the demise of the apprenticeship scheme. We have had a change in the style of housing. They have no eaves, they have flat roofs, and there is little in the way of control from the councils, which should have exercised much greater control over the building process, but did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAlso, a lot of the houses were built with untreated timber, and they were much more prone to rot. Interestingly, I live in a house that is 130 years old. It has no rot at all, except in the parts that have been renovated more recently in Pinus radiata. Although I have some constituents who come into my office to talk about leaky homes, most of my constituents live in older style houses that do not have this problem. Their homes have been standing for 100-plus years in some cases, and they are solidly built, with eaves, and have the right types of measures built in that are suited to the New Zealand environment and to the Auckland environment. The houses that were built much more recently certainly were not set up to have those features. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EObviously 25 percent is an improvement on the 10 percent that the Government was going to pay originally. The Government is now looking at the council paying 25 percent and the owner paying 50 percent, and that strikes a reasonable deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ESome issues with the details have been raised by my colleagues Phil Twyford and Moana Mackey. I expect those issues to be ironed out in the select committee. It was good to hear earlier in the evening the Minister say that that would be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe thank the Minister for the extra material he sent through, because I think quite a few questions will be coming to electorate offices over the next few weeks about what this legislation is and what it might look to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will touch on some of those issues. We need some clarification around repairs. If, for example, the repairs are costed out at around $100,000, and they look like they might be heading towards $150,000, we have an issue about how an owner bridges that gap. If the repairs are not done to a satisfactory level, what sort of come-back does the owner have against the council? The council is, essentially, not able to be taken to task. I think there needs to be the possibility of some sort of appeal mechanism. We cannot simply say that these assessors will be able to get it right every single time. There are a couple of issues around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EObviously there is the big issue of people who are simply not able to afford to pay the 50 percent. We are all told that the best thing we can do is to buy our own home and have it mortgage-free by the time we get a bit older. Many of the people who have been affected by leaky homes are older, with a limited ability to earn an income, yet they are facing massive costs. I am not sure how we deal with that issue. I am sure submitters to the select committee will want to talk about that a bit further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe other issue is the situation where an owner decides to take on this particular package\u2014to take the 25 percent from the council and the 25 percent from the Government\u2014and then sue the builder. What recompense does the builder have at that point? In a sense, we are moving the blame down the line. A builder could quite legitimately turn round and say that actually they built it to council specifications, and it was all above board. But builders have no ability to go back to the council and seek recompense from the council as a result of buying into the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOverall, I think the estimate that about 70 percent of people will take up this offer is good. It was never going to fix everybody\u2019s problems; this problem affects New Zealand at large. When somebody turns round and says that the council should pay for something, I say that the council is funded by ratepayers, which is ultimately our problem. So the whole issue goes round in a circle, and we, as New Zealanders, will have to shoulder the burden collectively for this complex system of errors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI do not think we have many other options than to look at a solution such as the one that has been put before us. I think that with the right amount of discussion, the right amount of communication to people out there about what is going to happen, and the right amount of listening to whatever suggestions that they bring up this could be a useful solution to an enormous problem that is facing New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb62fc6cc89e4967b8884f523c3ee797\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb62fc6cc89e4967b8884f523c3ee797\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I would say to the member for Mt Albert, who has criticised Government members for making short speeches, that his party in Government talked for 9 years about this issue, and that is what it is still doing now, whereas our Government is determined to act, and that is why we are getting on with the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EAlong with most electorate members of Parliament, I imagine, I have had the sobering experience of meeting constituents who face the sobering, terrible ordeal of owning leaky homes, and it is very hard not to be moved by their distress. Fortunately, the problem is not as extensive in my city of Hamilton as it is in some other parts of the country, but for every single homeowner who is caught up in this tragedy it is an absolutely shocking state of affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThere is much that I would like to say on this bill, but because of the circumstances, I will confine my remarks to an acknowledgment of the Minister, local authorities, and officials who have put together this admirable package. It is an honourable and just response to a serious problem. I am very proud to be a member of the governing party that has responded to such a difficult and longstanding challenge. I join other members in commending this bill to the House, and I sincerely hope that it will make a huge difference for the thousands of homeowners who are in this ghastly position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00229c9eb9206fe24dc393d1a956fdaa73b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c9eb9206fe24dc393d1a956fdaa73b8\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Such is the gravity of this subject that it requires a full 10-minute speech. Labour members are supporting the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill. It is important to bear in mind that the bill remedies a situation that, although it began while Maurice Williamson was a Minister in the early 1990s, in actual fact has worsened over the last decade or two. I will isolate a few important things that have happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELocal government found the difficulty so severe that it could not even secure reinsurance in the international reinsurance market, and its exposure has grown as the problem has increased. I would be the first to admit that during the period of time when I was the Minister for Building and Construction it was a difficulty that bedevilled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc0d3ad1d7b247558774b6f07343cc63\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just ask Government members to quieten down, please. I am trying to listen to the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f053adb5f054c85962d7562f7ae3e09\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. The point I was making was that although we support this bill, the reality is that during the last 10 to 20 years local government has become lumbered with this problem. I give full marks to the Minister of Housing for finding a way for the Crown to contribute. I look forward to hearing the submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee, because at the end of the day the submitters will focus on how in practice the Crown will assure them, as they go into debt, that they can actually gain access to the Crown percentage of the money. Similarly, how will local government also offer a bankable level of assurance? Most important, how will we ever convince the trading banks domiciled in New Zealand\u2014otherwise known as the Aussie banks\u2014or, should I say, the Crown, to step up to the plate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA key weakness, which is reflected in the policy at the moment, I venture to say, will be the unwillingness of the banks to provide homeowners with additional capital to address the problems. They are already overexposed in relation to property in New Zealand. Thousands of New Zealanders already have what are called aquarium mortgages\u2014that is, the value of the property has receded below the level of the mortgage. I suggest that during the select committee process, when the Bankers\u2019 Association makes its submission, members on the committee focus on what the banks might be expecting from the Crown in terms of underwriting, perhaps, in order for them to extend dough to these individual homeowners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI have met a number of these homeowners, and the lesson to be taken is that if anyone seeks advice about buying property in areas around Auckland, the advice should be to buy nothing unless it has eaves of at least 600 millimetres or 800 millimetres. If it is a 1950s or 1960s bungalow, it should be bought 1,000 percent more quickly than anything that looks like a Mediterranean construction, because I fear that those buildings are permanent aquariums, and that those building designs will never, ever cope with the New Zealand climate. The people who have escaped scot-free for having blighted our local urban landscape with these buildings will never be fully held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abc001a95804cf09a523a66d8efa5d6\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Shane, you\u2019d better come back to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222512a022e83941718aea2d0dd872810c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I know my presence on various committees has been missed. I might actually improve the intellectual quotient on the other side of the House by from time to time arriving there. I cannot improve the intellectual quotient offered by my colleagues here; all I can do is make up for the defects on the other side. However, I do not want to be too uncharitable tonight. I have not had the chance to acknowledge my distant Ng\u0101ti Porou kinswoman, Hekia Parata. I want it known that this woman worked in the general area of housing in her time, so what I am to say is relevant to the broad ambit of the bill. Craig Foss, despite his pugnacity, did not make it. Amy Adams, despite her knowledge of being Parliament\u2019s most knowledgable lawyer and accountant, could not mix it. Hekia, however\u2014a figure of elegance, style, and humility, a woman of few words, retiring, shy\u2014has now replaced Pansy Wong. Ng\u0101ti Porou say that Hikurangi mountain is the first to see the sun, and we can expect more of that rhetoric from Hekia in the future. Anyhow, I do not want the year to pass and grind to a halt without my acknowledging Hekia Parata. We came into the Civil Service at a similar time\u2014but that is another story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EPart of the difficulty with what this bill is addressing is that unless the builders of the future and the designers and the architects can improve their general level of skill, there is no guarantee that if we continue with very complicated building designs that are not suitable for Aotearoa, this problem will not recur. I encourage Minister Williamson\u2014and we have another bill on the way\u2014to actually expedite the process of improving the pace at which builders and other experts in the sector can become qualified so as to reduce the construction-related problems with this package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, a number of us have met the families who are struggling, who are stranded, who are condemned to live in these shoddily constructed apartments and buildings. In some respects, as harsh as it may seem, often the best thing for some of them\u2014and a number of them have done it\u2014is to just cut their losses and move on. This issue has mental health implications, it has destroyed marriages, and it has ruined families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAlthough this legislation represents a remedy, it is only a partial remedy, because at the end of the day if the owners want to remain in those dwellings, they will have to go further into debt. They will not have the opportunity to have another crack at the Crown or local government, etc., and in a sense I do think that is unfair. But having said that, I believe we will hear through the submissions that the ratepayers and the taxpayers\u2014unless they want to turn this issue into some sort of multi-century Treaty of Waitangi settlement process\u2014want to see an end to it, to the point at which property owners are no longer able to come back. Because who are they tapping? They are tapping ratepayers and they are tapping taxpayers. Although we think it is quite unfair\u2014the time restrictions and the absence of the ability to ram home a liability case in the future\u2014there are two sides to the story. That is why Labour members are happy for the bill to go to the select committee, and we will listen with a considerable degree of interest to what the submissions might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis has been predominantly an Auckland problem, with some cases in Wellington and a few in the South Island. But it has largely been an Auckland-based experience. I think the lesson here is that if we continue to deregulate in the future, and if we do not have a workforce that is capable of taking the elegant plans on the architect\u2019s computer screen and turning them into an actual construction, then this problem will revisit us time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe support this bill being referred to the select committee, but I offer a warning: we supported the Ng\u0101ti Apa debacle being referred to the select committee as well, and as a consequence of the wide divisiveness and very angry reactions that that bill has caused, we reserve our position with regard to what we will do then. We will hear very courteously\u2014unlike certain Ministers on that side of the House\u2014what the public has to say. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c87f07fdaa6a4261bc613f3478b5104b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c87f07fdaa6a4261bc613f3478b5104b\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill, and I do so, actually, with quite a heavy heart. This bill has come to this House, not before time, after the good work of the Minister, Maurice Williamson. But it is too late for some. It is too late for my family members who were challenged by a leaky home, and who went through tremendous pain, anguish, and suffering over what was a couple of years. I must say that that probably contributed to a now terminal illness on the part of my mother-in-law. This legislation is too late for them. It has taken a National Government with the guts, determination, and ability to get on and do something after 9 long years of waiting for Labour to stop the rhetoric, get on, and take some action. It did not happen; thank goodness it has now. Therefore, we can congratulate this National Government once again. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70d0a6c86024868896426c3ead17cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70d0a6c86024868896426c3ead17cf6\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Building and Construction: I move, That the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee, that the committee report finally to the House on or before 28 April 2011, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 187, 189(a), and 190(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcea924db9f7420497fb861aaf2e0e62\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I put the motion, I have an amendment in the name of Moana Mackey to delete all the words after \u201CCommittee\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f899d1999c9c4577aeae814a5d2342de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the words after \u201CCommittee\u201D be omitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002293dddabf25af4278b739665802f5b163\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Financial Assistance Package) Amendment Bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee, that the committee report finally to the House on or before 28 April 2011, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 187, 189(a), and 190(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eaffd69c1de046ffb573ca4d37413577\u0022\u003EBuilding Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022101bc6248656490f8411ec99e93567e5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c80c00da30cf4b63b8ce14c3b2036ea8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c80c00da30cf4b63b8ce14c3b2036ea8\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Building and Construction: I move, That the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee and that the committee present its final report to the House on or before 30 June 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe Building Act 2004 is the primary legislation that governs the building and construction sector in New Zealand. The building and construction sector is vital to our economy, but productivity is low. The sector is finding the current economic environment tough. There has been a rise in construction activity this year, but it is a patchy recovery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe current system is not broken, but it is not creating the right incentives to improve productivity. It is more costly than necessary and less efficient than it could be. Change is needed. When I say that, I am not talking about just the Government changing the law; I am talking about culture change in the building and construction sector so that everyone takes pride in their work and stands behind it. There are many good people doing good work in the sector, but the behaviour of some has dented confidence, and that behaviour has to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI am also talking about homeowners and others who commission building work changing their approach. Often their decision making is based purely on price. That approach needs to change to take into account factors that contribute to long-term value as well as immediate cost. None of this change will happen overnight, and we need to manage the change carefully so we do not lose the gains we have made since enacting the Building Act in 2004. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to regulatory reform designed to unleash enterprise. The Building Amendment Bill (No 3) is the result of a comprehensive review of the Building Act 2004 carried out in 2009-10. I acknowledge the important role played by the sector reference group in the review. Many sector leaders in the building and construction sector put time and effort into making submissions and contributing to meetings and working groups. They are the best source of information about the sector, and their input was very valuable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EA year ago, when we started the review, the aim was to reduce the cost and complexity of the consenting process. The Government received over 380 submissions in response to the review. The main message of the submissions was the vital importance of getting the balance right between reducing compliance costs and providing adequate insurance that building work is up to scratch. The package of amendments in the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) seeks to achieve that balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe Government has no interest in deregulating at the cost of the health, safety, or financial security of New Zealanders. Quality of building work must come first\u2014that is the fundamental purpose of the Building Act 2004. The Government\u2019s goal is a more efficient and productive sector that stands behind the quality of its work; a sector with the necessary skills and capability to build it right first time and that takes prides in its work; a sector that delivers good-quality, affordable homes and buildings and contributes to a prosperous economy; a well-informed sector that shares information and quickly identifies and corrects problems; and a sector where everyone involved in building work knows what they are accountable for and what they rely on others for. The Governments wants consumers in the sector to make informed decisions and to understand the risks and consequences of their decisions. I am pleased to report there is widespread support for the direction of the proposed changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI will now outline the key changes contained in the Building Amendment Bill (No 3). They cover three broad areas: clearer accountability, more efficient regulation, and improving skills and knowledge. These areas are all interrelated. We cannot make regulation more efficient without first getting accountability clear, and both depend on people having the necessary skills and knowledge. The Building Act 2004 will be amended to make it clearer that the buck stops with the people doing the work. Builders and designers must make sure their work will meet building code requirements; building owners must make sure they get the necessary approvals and are accountable for any decisions they make, such as substituting specified products; and building consent authorities are accountable for checking that plans will meet building code requirements and inspecting to make sure plans are followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe bill will also change the current building consent process to allow for risk-based consenting. This change will reduce compliance costs by doing away with unnecessary checking and inspection. It will also provide incentives for builders and designers to ensure they have the necessary skills to build it right first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EA new risk-based consent system will allow owners to apply for different types of building consents based on the risk of the work to be done, rather than the current one-size-fits-all standard. Low-risk or simple residential work done by a licensed building practitioner does not need a lot of checking or inspection by the building consent authority. The building consents for this type of work will have limited checks and inspections by the building consent authority. For more complex residential work where the risks are higher, the current building consent process will remain in place, with detailed checks and inspections by the building consent authority. For commercial building work, the new building consent will take current best practice and apply it across the sector. This will allow for third-party review and quality assurance processes to take the place of building consent authority checks and inspections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe risk-based consent system will work only when we have confidence in the quality of building work being done. The Government has identified a number of pre-conditions that will tell us whether we are on the right track. These conditions include having a sound base of competent licensed building practitioners who know how to comply with the code. We will activate the new types of risk-based building consents only when these pre-conditions are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIn February this year the Minister announced measures to streamline and simplify the licensed building practitioner scheme. A robust licensing scheme with a critical mass of licensed builders means consumers can have confidence that their homes will be built right first time. The Government will cut compliance costs for building practitioners without compromising standards. The bill will amend the Act to be explicit about the standard of behaviour expected from people working in the sector. This is the culture change I mentioned earlier. Good standards of behaviour will help restore confidence in the sector. A code of ethics will now form part of the licensed building practitioner scheme, and licensed building practitioners will be able to be disciplined for breaches of the code or other behaviour that brings the scheme into disrepute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe final key change included in the bill is an owner-builder exemption from the restricted building work regime in the Act. We are a nation of do-it-yourselfers, and the Government thinks it is unfair to stop Kiwis wielding a hammer on the weekend, which could happen under the restricted building work regime. But we still want to protect consumers from past shoddy work on their prime asset. The do-it-yourselfers will be exempt from the restricted building work regime. This means they will not have to employ licensed building practitioners to supervise or carry out restricted building work, but their work must still meet the requirements of the building code, and like professional builders they will still be accountable for the work that they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EFurther, we need to prevent unlicensed builders from flying under the radar and passing themselves off as do-it-yourselfers. The bill therefore includes provisions preventing do-it-yourselfers from working on more than one home within any 3-year period. It also requires any assistance given to the do-it-yourselfer by friends or family to be unpaid. The Government believes that these are fair and reasonable steps to prevent bad houses being built by unlicensed builders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThis bill will see more work built right first time, increase confidence in the sector, reinforce incentives for the sector to upskill, and reduce compliance costs by increasing efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00225b6cf36bcd294bf29a0056c32d7577a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b6cf36bcd294bf29a0056c32d7577a5\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move that all the words after \u201CCommittee\u201D be deleted. I acknowledge the work of the Hon Maurice Williamson in bringing the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) to the House. Labour will be supporting this bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee. We see this bill as a modest and positive contribution to the ongoing process of reform of regulation in the building sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the work of the honourable and modest Shane Jones, who started much of this work when he was the Minister for Building and Construction. He set up a number of task forces and began a whole process of consultation and discussion with the industry, which has led to many of the reform proposals that are contained in this bill. Shane Jones, in his earlier contribution on the weathertight homes legislation, was quite right to point out that if he were to join colleagues on the Government side of this House, the average quality of contribution on that side would rise and the average quality of contribution on this side would diminish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292063d36120840d8ada88104077c5e87\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: It would be a change, because none of you seem to be able to get to the committee at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32d05ee7d5240e9b40dd3e629cdd224\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that it was a great relief to finally hear a 10-minute contribution from the Minister who opened this debate. It makes a refreshing change from the rather desultory contributions we have heard from Government members this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe support this bill. We think it is a modest step forward in the ongoing process of reform in the building and construction industry. However, it lacks ambition. I want to go on and say exactly why we support it and what is good about it, and raise some questions about the bill. Let us look at the context of what is happening in the building and construction industry. It is a hugely important part of our economy. It accounts for about 5 percent of our GDP, and something like 70,000 New Zealanders are employed in the sector, yet this is an industry that is in crisis. The building consent figures that came out last week show that construction activity in the residential sector has fallen through the floor. We have appallingly low levels of productivity in the building and construction industry. We are killing people on building sites at two to three times the rate of Australia. This is an industry that is in desperate need of assistance. Although the measures contained in this bill are positive and worthwhile in general, they are woefully lacking in ambition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe question I have for Government members is why we are not seeing some kind of plan to rescue the building and construction industry in order to address the deep-seated productivity problems in the industry and the entrenched health and safety problems in this industry. Currently, in the economic crisis besetting the building and construction industry, we are seeing the departure of large numbers of skilled tradespeople at the moment who are going off to Australia. We are seeing apprentices being laid off at the moment because this Government does not have a plan not only for the wider economy but also in particular for this vital industry that we are talking about tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe historical context is that in 1991 the National Government of the time deregulated the building sector, and, as we know, the response was a disaster for New Zealand. It was a disaster for homeowners and we are still feeling the effects of it. When the fifth Labour Government came in, we set out to address the problem. We saw in the Building Act 2004 a genuine attempt to restore a decent building regulation regime. We recognise that in hindsight that legislation is too prescriptive and too heavily focused on compliance. The result was that the industry generally stopped building leaky homes, but the heavy compliance regime slowed down the whole industry and added costs that were ultimately passed on to homeowners. So it is appropriate at this time that the reform process will swing the pendulum back towards the centre and give us a more thoughtful and light-handed approach that will be better for the industry and better for the consumer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe are supporting this bill in general and we look forward to a good debate in the select committee, but we want to raise some questions at this point. One of them asks why the Government has opted for the much more light-handed approach of requiring home warranties to be made available to homeowners. The builder is required to have a home warranty scheme in their back pocket to offer it to homeowners at the point of purchase. A much more comprehensive approach would be to make home warranties mandatory and to back that up with a fidelity fund. I think that is the option that most people in the industry recognise would solve the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5d048373994f299ec2fb17c907b5aa\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Heavy-handed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27fc59d38f447ba85c148d2976e73bf\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is heavy-handed and there would be some risk involved in such a big intervention, but I think that is an interesting debate. I would like to hear why the Government has gone for a much more insubstantial and light-handed approach that will arguably have less of a chance of solving the problem and providing real consumer protection. I am not convinced that this will provide the level of protection that is needed. Arguably, mandatory home warranties backed up by a fidelity fund that could invest in productivity, certification, and health and safety could potentially offer a much more thoroughgoing solution to the deep-seated problems of lack of productivity and poor consumer protection that we see in the industry today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think there are other issues. Reflected in the bill is an attempt to better balance the spread of accountability and responsibility across the different players in the industry, and that is a worthy attempt to reform the problem in the industry, which is that accountability has not been aligned with levels of responsibility, and that is what we need. If we want to drive behaviour change in the industry, accountability has to be aligned with responsibility. I want to give members an example of this. In the bill, new section 14D, inserted by clause 10, places on designers and architects the responsibility for ensuring that the plans and specifications that they deliver to the client, if followed correctly, will result in building work that is compliant with the building code. At the same time, clause 24 lets councils off the responsibility of carrying out inspections and issuing a code of compliance. This is a major change to the regulatory regime that has not been discussed publicly by the Government. It puts a huge amount of responsibility and liability on to designers and architects, and I wonder whether that is a sensible apportionment of accountability and whether the unforeseen consequences of that might undermine the objectives of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have talked about home warranties. One of the other major pieces of the reform process that has been discussed is risk-based consenting, which the Minister outlined in her opening speech. We support that. The attempt is good and it will mean that we will see a much lighter and differentiated approach to consenting. It will mean that, for instance, certain things will be able to be done that will not even require a building certificate any more. They are things like car ports, porches, verandas, simple houses, and free-standing barns. I know that the leader of the Labour Party, the Hon Phil Goff, will be extremely relieved. He was most upset at being whacked with a huge building consent charge by his local council when he built a barn on his property, so that is one New Zealander who will be happy to see that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes some further improvements to the licensed builder practitioner scheme, which is worthwhile. It prescribes a code of consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8c334a955c44a619425557836011686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8c334a955c44a619425557836011686\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E In following on from Phil Twyford, I say that it is a pleasure to hear a series of cathartic speeches from the other side of the House. Obviously he has fully considered the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), and I concur with his view that we can all look forward to good debate at the select committee. I think that is where the debate will occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI take pride and pleasure in being part of the John Key - led Government, which introduces purposeful and practical legislation, and has done since it took office. This particular bill is both practical and purposeful, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002233b1fe64f943457e9462f25995edee01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233b1fe64f943457e9462f25995edee01\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is enormously disappointing that Government members do not feel that they should earn their $140,000 salaries by making a proper speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29eb2bba5f843aa923000017eb70175\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: We put the bill together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc9c5e0e66ce47b098b341fdd0ea660e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Auchinvole that he did not. The Minister of Education made a 10-minute speech, which is very good. Although I suspect that had the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Maurice Williamson, made that speech, he would have truncated it, but that is a bit hard to do when it is not one\u2019s particular area and one reads the speech that the officials have very kindly written out for the Minister. But I suggest that we might have expected a little bit more from Mr Auchinvole, the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee. The point of urgency is that Parliament sits for longer than it normally would. Urgency does not absolve members of their responsibility to debate legislation in the House, to show that they have taken the time to consider it, and to ask the kinds of questions that the public have been asking about it. That is not what urgency is. Urgency does not mean that we do in 10 seconds a job that should take 10 minutes. It is not our fault that the House is in urgency. It is not our fault that the management of the House has been such a shambles this year that the Leader of the House is in a panic and we will be sitting until midnight on Saturday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELabour members will be supporting the referral of the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) to the Local Government and Environment Committee. The juxtaposition of the previous bill with this bill is very timely. I think we are all very aware that any changes made to the Building Act 2004 need to be seen in the context of the previous legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a7dd107cfd45b087a4ac903ed040d5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What was the previous one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dfdf3e1e1664f61b344c0ed5a7bbb73\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the leaky building solution\u2014which is repairing a lot of the damage caused by the Building Act 1991. The 1991 legislation deregulated the sector to the point where consumers found themselves with very few protections under the law. Aaron Gilmore has been a builder, an architect, and a developer. In fact, I think he wrote the 1991 legislation, so I look forward to his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de632b507d2b419fb9e74f2fe2847792\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on his CV.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585a50281bd743f6bfa4863cc764d320\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is on his CV anyway, I hear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef05acebb72d42e6b22341ddbbf30c74\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: He said his brother did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2446f5e0ed484cba9a87d65f062ddd\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, his brother did. His brother did it. This is a new kind of variation on a theme. Right before Christmas\u2014what a gift! I thank Mr Gilmore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut the juxtaposition of these two bills should not be lost on members of the House, because we need to be very careful when we amend the Building Act that we do not create the same problems that the previous National Government did in the 1990s, which have seen billion-dollar legislation having to go through the House to assist homeowners whose houses are absolutely uninhabitable and who have lost their life-savings, which were invested in those properties, because of shonky work and shonky materials. Legislation passed by that Government allowed that to happen under the guise of the free market. It was so opposed to any kind of regulation that it thought all regulation must be bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI suspect that is why, when Labour fixed the situation in 2004, we made the legislation very tough. The extent of the leaky homes crisis was just becoming evident to all the people of New Zealand. The public were crying out for more controls and people who were in the process of having homes built wanted to know that they would not fall into the same trap, and we responded with legislation that was very tough and provided enormous protection. We know that the Hon Shane Jones, who was the Minister, thought that perhaps the pendulum had swung too far. In hindsight, we know that the reaction, although understandable and appropriate at the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d684a3fbdc4721b00881d13ed20ba1\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Here\u2019s the cathartic bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c72f79020c6d4d7b8d361ef219982f1f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014had caused its own problems. I say to Mr Auchinvole that when Labour was in Government it acknowledged that and set in place a process to amend the Building Act again to remove unnecessary blockages in the system, and to try to make the process easier and to lower the cost of building houses in New Zealand. So we will be supporting this legislation, because we see it as another step in the process of trying to streamline the Building Act where we can. As my colleague Phil Twyford has said, it is very modest legislation. This bill will not have a huge impact, but none the less we believe that it is a positive step in the right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022affd17129e174be087bc38a303b091f8\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: It will, it will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb73a49e32e4fb4a2bb65c2a57c3ef4\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I look at the issue of housing affordability. Is Mr Auchinvole saying that this bill will have an enormous impact on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c402534c31ea47d2bf88ea1e72dd6cfd\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228335999e98bc4c78a5007faf8e320a0d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: He is. OK. Well, I wonder whether I should listen to Mr Auchinvole or to the Registered Master Builders Federation president, Warwick Quinn, who welcomed the changes\u2014like we do\u2014but said that he does not think building costs will fall at all as a result of this legislation. Should I believe Mr Auchinvole or should I believe the president of the Registered Master Builders Federation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc4be1440584859b5db9aa3670e0b94\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d stick with Mr Auchinvole, if I were you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cdd8645452544b8b3a612cdfa6352ba\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Auchinvole thinks I should believe Mr Auchinvole; that is one of the few things he is consistent on and I congratulate him on that. But I think I will go with the guy who actually does this for a living and knows what he is talking about, with the greatest of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b0fefd785041089bbcca950117a4f3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Aaron Gilmore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c8aa961c83c44c7a87eb9bcd56a6bbd\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: And I do not mean Aaron Gilmore. I hope my whanaunga Hekia Parata, now that she is in a position to mentor younger members, will take Mr Gilmore under her wing and teach him those great Ng\u0101ti Porou qualities of humility, modesty, and wisdom. These great gifts can be bestowed upon Aaron Gilmore by one of our Ng\u0101ti Porou whanaunga, of whom we are very proud. I congratulate Hekia Parata on her promotion\u2014it is well deserved. Now I have forgotten where I was up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf287b709ea4f3c9f9cc1c5bd3b6f60\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Housing affordability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc64f6a23824bd290f35868472ca599\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Housing affordability is a major issue. This bill was one part of the housing affordability plan that National campaigned on. It said that the first way that it would address housing affordability was through tax cuts. Well, those tax cuts went to the wealthy. They went to people who could already afford houses, so that was a big fail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc84238735549b1830ffc3f19bf6e1a\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What about what the Budget did to tenants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ee0fd3c4e4443dbb46e7349c0f91e1\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Budget increased rent for tenants, and the cost of living has gone up across the board, all of which make housing affordability even further away from being addressed. The second part was the Government\u2019s Gateway Housing Assistance scheme. Well, that turned out to be a real fizzer, because not only did that great, bold policy deliver only 40 houses\u201440 houses across the entire country in its first year, when Labour while in Government had identified 1,500 sites in Auckland alone\u2014but, apparently, it just does not work. The sector tells me that it does not work, but there will be more to come on that later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ENow we have the amendment of the Building Act. We in Labour absolutely agree that if we can put in changes that protect consumers and that mean they will not be at risk from shonky buildings, then that is great, and it would be great if we can address housing affordability through those measures, as well. But as the Registered Master Builders Federation president, Warwick Quinn, has said, this bill will not do that. If the aim of this bill is to reduce the cost of housing, well, that will not happen. So I do not think members opposite should claim, as Mr Auchinvole did, that this bill will be a panacea for housing affordability, when clearly it will not be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI endorse what my colleague Phil Twyford has said about the building sector. This sector is in crisis. When we look at what is happening at the moment, we see that two things are happening concurrently. There is an incredible housing shortage in New Zealand\u2014not enough residential housing is being built\u2014and we have a building sector that is screaming out for work. The building sector has seen the number of consents drop through the floor to unprecedented levels. The work just is not there. People are losing their jobs and building companies are going out of business. On the other hand, we are facing an enormous housing crisis in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne would think that a responsible Government that had a plan for the economy\u2014a plan to keep people in work and to address the lack of residential housing being built\u2014would take advantage of this situation. Remember, Labour built 8,000 State houses to replace the 13,000 that the previous National Government had sold, and we did that during one of the biggest housing booms in New Zealand, when it was difficult to get hold of a builder, so imagine what we could do in a time when builders are screaming out for work. We could really dent the shortfall in housing that New Zealand is facing at the moment. But this Government has not done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn fact, what has it done? It has slashed the budget for housing this year by more than 80 percent. It slashed it. It has completely taken itself out of that situation. [Interruption] I am not sure what is noisier: Anne Tolley\u2019s jacket or her interjections. But she can read the Budget and see that the Housing New Zealand Corporation has been told that any new houses will have to come out of savings in baseline spending. Is that what we should be doing at a time when we have a housing shortage and a building sector in crisis? We are not training building apprentices and we are not doing the skills training that we should be having at this time. Apprentices are being laid off. They could be going back to polytech to do more work on their qualifications, rather than their being let go and the years of training that have already been put into them going to waste. This Government has no plan\u2014no plan for building. That is the important other half of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELabour members support any moves that make it easier for the sector to work while also offering protection to consumers. This is modest legislation, and it follows on from the work that Shane Jones was doing. But there has to be a plan for the building sector; otherwise, all the good intentions in this kind of legislation do not mean anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bab487a7577b43cbadb32b65ba3742b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bab487a7577b43cbadb32b65ba3742b8\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I begin where the previous speaker, Moana Mackey, left off. I support the comments that both she and her colleague Phil Twyford made about the broader context of housing and the New Zealand building industry in which the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) is being advanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EA recent Government task force report entitled Home and Housed: A Vision for Social Housing in New Zealand found that there is a shortage of 70,000 homes in New Zealand, and that 8,500 to 20,00 New Zealand households have extreme housing issues. That is extraordinary. The Government\u2019s solution has been to make vague comments about working with the community sector more, and that is simply not enough; we need action and we need it now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Government has cut money for upgrading and acquiring State houses from $120 million to $18 million in this year\u2019s Budget. It is actively going backwards on supporting vulnerable Kiwis who have the right, we would say, to be guaranteed a roof over their heads. This cut is occurring at a time when over 10,000 families are on the State housing waiting list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has suggested some solutions that would address those needs for housing and also address the plight of the building industry. Our Mind the Gap package and our Green New Deal package have proposed a comprehensive State house building programme to increase the stock of State houses by 6,000 homes over 3 years. It would create 28,000 jobs. We also proposed that a further $200 million should be spent in community housing to build a further 500 homes over that period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThat is the broader context. I also make a comment that builds on something that Chris Auchinvole said. He thought that the debate on this bill would happen at the Local Government and Environment Committee. I think it is evident that that is the only place that it can happen. Even though this is a complex and technical bill, I am sure we would have all benefited from Government members taking some time to explain their proposals more, and I think the New Zealand public has a democratic expectation for the Government to do that in a first reading. The first reading debate is not about satisfying the needs of only the Government itself; it is actually about satisfying the needs of the New Zealand public to know more about the bill being proposed so that they are in a better position to make informed comments and submissions as part of the select committee process. I think it is unfortunate that Government members have chosen to take cursory calls on this bill, because it robs the public and important stakeholders of the opportunity to know more about the bill, and, therefore, to make the best submissions they possibly can as part of the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s aims of making builders more accountable and simplifying the building process seem superficially good on the one hand, but on the other hand they sound like code for more deregulation and a higher risk of the kind of debacle that we heard about earlier this evening in this House: the catastrophe of the leaky homes disaster, which has befallen so many New Zealand households. Once again, it is one of those issues where there is debate between regulation and deregulation and striking the correct balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt is worth repeating the conclusion of the Hunn report about leaky homes, which in 2002 found that the deregulation of the building industry undertaken by the National Government in the 1990s represented a major systemic breakdown across the whole industry. That cannot be allowed to happen again. We cannot compromise environmental, safety, and quality standards in order to fast track building developments and satisfy National\u2019s obsession with free-market economics. In the long run, that approach will lead to problems such as the leaky homes debacle, the repercussions of which we are still dealing with today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe realise that the building industry and the systems we have around the industry are not perfect, and we certainly welcome some of the provisions in the bill. There is room for improvement and we agree with objectives such as holding people to account for their work. Indeed, part of the problem with the leaky buildings fiasco was the loss of the accountability chain and accountability mechanisms. It is important to remember that all of that fiasco happened in the context of deregulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI raise another problem that we hope this bill will address\u2014that is, the problem faced by people who want to build different or eco-friendly buildings. Very often councils seem ill-equipped to deal with those kinds of applications, and they fall back on the tried and true systems that they know. That is anathema to the kind of innovation that we need in order to overhaul the style of New Zealand buildings and to address some of the challenges that we face in this century. On the whole, the 2004 reforms to the building code have been an improvement, but there is still a way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWith all that said, the Green Party has an open mind and is keen to hear the submissions from the public and from stakeholders on how the Building Act can be improved. We are also keen to hear from experts about how we can safeguard the environmental, safety, and quality standards of the building industry, and to see whether there is scope to make the processes easier to comply with. It is fair to say that we are sceptical about National\u2019s record on building regulation and, more particularly, deregulation, but we want to hear the arguments. With that said, we will support this bill at the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00222687380caf1946878f39b468b7bdea0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222687380caf1946878f39b468b7bdea0b\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Building Amendment Act (No 3) on behalf of the ACT Party. I have to say that the previous speaker, Kevin Hague, seemed to be struggling to fill his 10 minutes. It seems, in summary, that this is not such a bad bill, but he had to say something negative because it is Government legislation. We think that this is a very good bill. It will make a number of changes to the Building Act to improve its productivity, efficiency, and accountability, which should always be strived for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe amendments will exempt a broader range of low-risk building work from consenting requirements, which will free things up significantly in the building sector, and that is well needed at the moment. It will also require building contractors to disclose more information to enable building consumers to make better-informed decisions. That too is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI do not think the criticism about leaky homes was valid. I think this Government is taking leaky homes very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b84917005974d2ebdfb07a377c12d09\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour Government did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d7b3d8493b64e359dde6a74d415e6df\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the previous Labour Government did not do a great deal. I sat on one of the select committees that heard one of the bills. In fact, if Labour members had been listening to the debate on the prior bill, they would have heard that the Minister involved is fully engaged with this matter and has taken on the cause very passionately. Few could actually criticise his approach or what it is that he was trying to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00dbc92d3d546a7b408370022087162\u0022\u003EHon Hon Member\u003C/span\u003E: If you had been here you would know we spoke on that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222397c93f9a35437ebf4f83f0f3c0f1ad\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, I did sit through his speech, and it was an excellent speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party is fully supporting this bill. We look forward to it going to the Local Government and Environment Committee, where, of course, it will receive proper examination in a great deal of detail by the committee members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00227a63f770530840f986f39acdffca267d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a63f770530840f986f39acdffca267d\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party about the Building Amendment Bill (No 3). I find it very interesting that the general policy statement for this bill in part says: \u201CChange is needed to provide incentives for building professionals and tradespeople to take responsibility for the quality of their work and to stand behind it.\u201D It is really sad that in this time we need to pass legislation to make sure that people stand behind the quality of their work and take responsibility for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI remember that back in the late 1980s our family bought our first new home. It was built on iwi land by M\u0101ori affairs trainees. It was not what one would call a flash home. It cost us $80,000 in those days, and we had to take out a mortgage with an interest rate of about 18 percent. At one stage it rose to about 24 percent interest, so it was very expensive. The first storm we had after we moved in lifted part of the roof. I walked into one room and water was pouring down the wall. We had to get the insurance people to come in and check it all out and get the builders back to re-roof the building, and this was only just after it had been built and we had first moved in. This was long before the leaky buildings scandal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAbout 10 years later, in the late 1990s, we moved into our next new home, which was a lot more up-market. In fact, it was built by a registered master builder who stood behind his work. He did fantastic work. When we first moved in he lived just down the road from us and he used to make lots of excuses to pop in and check out his workmanship. He would look around to make sure that it was holding up, and we felt very comfortable with that because we knew that he cared about the quality of his workmanship, about the quality of the building, and about the people who were living in his buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThat was very good. He did not need a Building Act or anything like that to force him to do it. But we realise that times have changed and there are cowboys out there still. We realise that some people will act only when the heavy arm of the law is resting upon their shoulders. So although it is regrettable, we support this bill being referred to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022b47443b161de4b138c6e2ce0497455c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b47443b161de4b138c6e2ce0497455c7\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Building Amendment Bill (No 3) is focused on improving efficiency and effectiveness in the building industry and on raising overall performance and productivity. It is designed to allow builders to build better-quality buildings in a more cost-effective manner by ensuring clearer accountability for building practitioners, building consent authorities, and consumers. It will make sure that work complies with the building code. It includes a code of ethics for licensed building practitioners, in order to encourage professional behaviour. It also allows DIY work under controlled conditions. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022e29de305097840cbb9b886500e5fa1f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e29de305097840cbb9b886500e5fa1f6\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), and I will be taking a full 10-minute call, unlike National members opposite, who specialise in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6535a69eab4ac6bd85db5659fda48d\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: It had better be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b381196c128748ff84bee62ed6dd1887\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell Nikki Kaye that National members have, on average, spoken for 26 seconds. That speaks to why we are here at the moment, which is because of National\u2019s mismanagement of the House and the collision of all of this legislation at the end of the year. I remind the House that 2 weeks ago the Leader of the House said that we would not need to go into urgency before the end of the year, but here we are sitting under urgency until the weekend. I do not mind doing that, but I think that a democratic principle is involved here, which is that there should be good debate on important legislation. This bill is one of those important bills, but the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill was probably the most significant and even it did not get more than a 3\u00BD second call from National members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis legislation has a long history dating back to 1991, with the deregulation of the building industry and the building codes. The idea was that somehow the market could regulate standards and ensure that buildings could be built more flexibly, more cheaply, and more efficiently, but ultimately it was at a huge cost to New Zealand. We have just been told that it was at a cost of $11 billion, but actually PricewaterhouseCoopers puts it at closer to $23 billion, which is about the cost of the health and education budgets for a year put together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn 2004 the Labour Government brought in the Building Act, which tried to tighten up considerably the regulations in relation to buildings and building construction. I think that it was perhaps too heavy and too prescriptive and that this bill provides, in a sense, a rewriting of the situation back to where the law should lie. Nevertheless the leaky building situation is still with us, and I think the key point about this legislation is that the accountabilities are set and the expertise required by builders and councils is explicitly set so that there is real protection for homeowners and everybody else in New Zealand. In relation to leaky buildings, it is the rest of New Zealand that is paying for the array of faults that happened right throughout the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis bill moves to a more balanced building consent system. It looks at low-risk building work, such as a low deck, a basic shed, or something that any Kiwi would build, and it enables that work to be done without consent, which is a very welcome provision. I think we can be well and truly over-regulated; applying for consent to build a shed and having to wait for 2 months to get that consent from the council at huge cost is unnecessary. Low-risk building work such as a simple one-storey house would go through a quicker, simpler consent process with fewer council inspections required, and rather than having to rely on the council, it would rely on the skills of a licensed builder. Consents for high-risk, more complex houses will go through the current kind of system that we have. Those are all sensible changes to the Building Act and will make a difference in terms of efficiency and the ability to get things done much more quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis legislation also provides for a rebalancing of responsibility back towards professionals and tradespeople, which is important. However, I think it highlights the fact that the deregulation in 1991 brought about a major problem with the smaller number of builders who were trained, who came through a proper apprenticeship scheme, and were able to take on large building programmes. There were very weak skills in that area, which contributed to the problems we have seen today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis legislation also includes better tools for consumers to hold professionals to account. It includes mandatory written contracts and deals with how disputes will be solved, how money will be paid, and how finances will be backed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis legislation is good but it is pretty modest. I do not think the bill goes as far as many people would like it to go. We should consider the comments made by John Gray, the President of the Home Owners and Buyers Association. He may even be watching the debate tonight and seeing the short calls that National members are taking on this bill and the cynical way in which they are treating the passage of legislation through the House. He accused the Government of a weak Building Act review and said that the changes had stopped short of a national building warranty scheme, or a fidelity fund, which he wanted as a backstop for homeowners, which my colleague Phil Twyford talked about before. Mr Gray said: \u201CThe building industry needs to give itself an enema,\u201D. It is spoken like a true builder: to the point and saying that basically this bill is not as good as it could be. He continued: \u201CThe focus on potential liability is a sad indictment on an industry that \u2026 is still failing to focus on quality outcomes and to give consumers the level of protection they deserve \u2026\u201D. They certainly do deserve that protection, as we have seen in relation to the previous legislation on leaky homes, because families have been bankrupted and people have suffered huge financial burdens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe building industry is extraordinarily important in New Zealand. It is worth, from memory, about 5 percent of GDP. An enormous amount of people work in the industry. Yet right at the moment, as Moana Mackey pointed out earlier in her speech, building consents are at an all-time low. In Auckland the number of building consents being approved now is about half the number of consents being approved a year and a half ago. Although the demand for housing is still there, building is not happening, and we will have a major shortage of housing in particular in Auckland in the coming years unless we are able to do something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will come to a couple of points that are more particular to this bill. Phil Twyford mentioned the fidelity fund. It has been brought in in Queensland. It is a more heavy-handed approach, I agree, but it does set up a fund that can be used to not only backstop any liabilities that could happen but also contribute to innovation and the building safety codes that we do not have at the moment. A fidelity fund offers the scope to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe bill lacks provision for materials, and I believe it should be looked into at the select committee. A lot of the leaky building debacle happened as a result of new materials that were untested or not tested sufficiently. The materials leaked or rotted, and owners ultimately paid the price. This bill does not sufficiently protect consumers from faulty products of manufacturers or retailers, and I think that needs to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EFinally, I hope that this bill brings about the culture change that needs to happen in our building environment. I do not think it will do that; it is too light and too modest, and it does not go far enough. But the ultimate test and the ultimate challenge is to bring about a much more professional building practice in New Zealand. That is what we all should be aiming for with this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00222ddc38f7c2024bb5bddcd2550123559a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ddc38f7c2024bb5bddcd2550123559a\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is about cutting red tape, reducing compliance, and reducing bureaucracy, and it is about affordable housing. One of the reasons I came to Parliament was because I got to see members opposite in their true colours. I will never forget being a researcher when members opposite said that it was a New Zealand Herald beat-up to say that we have leaky homes in New Zealand. I was very sad for the many families who suffered under the previous Labour Government. It did nothing\u2014absolutely nothing\u2014on the rotting homes crisis. So I am very proud of our Ministers that we have given certainty to so many of those families. As a constituency MP it has been heartbreaking to see the many families who spent years under the previous Labour Government\u2014firstly when it denied there was a situation and, secondly, when it did nothing. So I am very proud to be part of this National Government, which has developed policy around weathertightness and leaky homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThis bill is about Kiwi DIY. This bill is about saying that it will not cost an arm and a leg to do up one\u2019s own place. I am very proud to be supporting this bill, which is not only about reducing compliance costs and red tape and providing greater affordable housing but about recognising the historic injustices, some of which were caused by the previous Labour Government, and about the average Kiwi person, who does not want to pay thousands of dollars just to do up their home. So I am very pleased to support this bill, because life is not a beach for some of those people. Some of those people have suffered significantly. I am very pleased to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022676d8a179c7d4adbabc24e7074ac2472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022676d8a179c7d4adbabc24e7074ac2472\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou, Mr Speaker. Just to bring the previous speaker Nikki Kaye up to speed, the bill she was referring to has already been dealt with. That bill pertained to the leaky homes problem. I can assure the member that everyone who spoke from her side of the House had less to say than she did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA number of people have suggested that the Building Act ought to be put into the furnace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0345b9b65484d73afb31343aecb9c8a\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Fast-forward that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c462fb67e76c4ce49e56b03109a248a6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, hold on, that was Aaron Gilmore. He used the words \u201Cfunereal pyre\u201D. What he was actually referring to is the struggle that he and Paul Quinn will have to get hold of the lifebuoy as they are thrown off the sinking ship of Te Roop\u016B N\u0101hinara. Paul Quinn will say: \u201CI need to get it because I have protected us from prisoners, who now are unable to vote.\u201D Aaron Gilmore will say: \u201CI need to get it because I am the cleverest financial analyst who has ever come to Parliament.\u201D But that is kei te pai, because Sammy Wong and his hovercraft will save both of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd228b73925c4ea6af4c107754a95fad\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am mildly offended that Paul Quinn is being treated in such a poor way, given that he is not in this House right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cf046b430b14958988cdfd0752f8f70\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member has actually breached a Standing Order ruling by referring to the absence of people from the House. I feel that we should just get on with the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022062ede150584427f9138cbdb1c5ae202\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: This legislation is about reforming the Building Act. I am not entirely sure whether it will relate to sow crates, but I can see a Minister over there who has ruined the agricultural portfolio, worsened the liability of the Crown, and incurred an inordinate debt as he sought to offend the members of an important religious community in New Zealand, who just want to go about their lives and eat kosher meat. He has introduced some foolish regulations. But I will come back to that another time. The man is a walking liability. He has probably endangered the larger meat trade, but the terms \u201Chead\u201D and \u201Cmeat\u201D tend to come together when one looks at him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill is an improvement in terms of what took place and what a number of us on our side of the House\u2014too late in the piece, I might say\u2014endeavoured to arrest. That is why a number of us have spoken enthusiastically about it tonight, and why 10 minutes, at the very least, is required to elaborate as to what the bill actually means, given that no one on that side of the House has either read it or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212dc48d17eac49ac88880b9b9335236b\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Get the sure strokes, Shane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6916a5356d4f87b26a951aeb9f0077\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Gilmore to keep all his energy for the lifebuoy. Well, in his case, I had better say the safety belt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHowever, I come back to the bill. There will be four new categories of building permits. A lot of building activity in New Zealand should not require a permit of any sort, and I sought to do that in the period of time that I was Minister. Some very modest, insubstantial building activities ought to be able to be carried out without a permit, provided that the person is a credible and qualified tradesman. Why on earth should ratepayers be blighted with the costs of having to deal with permits and consents for building activities that are of a modest nature? That is why the schedule that was passed 2 years ago allowed certain building activities to be exempted. I must say that this bill continues slightly in that vein. It focuses the attention of decision makers on where risk really lies. Councils ought to be concerned about those projects where the risk is of a very substantial and significant nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ECouncils will not be issuing certificates of compliance; they will be issuing completion certificates. That will reflect the fact that when a person makes an application, the process has been completed. Owners have a responsibility not only to use common sense but to act as investors and owners of property and find tradesmen who are qualified and reliable. This bill brings a suitable level of responsibility on to the applicant and on to the person who actually owns the property. Then it sheets home the responsibility to those such as the designers. Those fools who brought cheek by jowl Mediterranean-style housing into New Zealand have got off largely scot-free and have concluded that they are no longer liable and are no longer responsible. But this bill provides for the liability that they should face to be borne by them, and requires them to ensure that the advice they give is consistent with the requirements of the building code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe building code was originally a permissive experience, but it got far too liberal and problems emerged during the period of time prior to the Helen Clark Government. Our response, as my colleagues have said, was a very heavy-handed response, and we all agree that this bill should go to the Local Government and Environment Committee because the pendulum most certainly needs to swing back to a place where people are not overwhelmed by too much red tape and are not paying absurdly high levels of fees to the council when the problem that needs to be managed is of a very simple nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAn important part of this lies at the heart of the average Kiwi citizen\u2019s experience of owning their own property\u2014that is, the owner-builder exemption. Earlier this was a matter of some debate. How does one allow for the average Kiwi do-it-yourself Carter Holt Harvey - ITM friend, who keeps those businesses in regular cash flow by wanting to improve and actually enrich the value of their properties? This bill will allow that to happen. However, where activity requires a high level of skill because one may impair the integrity of the building, there will be an obligation on the owners of the property to ensure that the people doing that work include a suitably qualified person. Without a doubt that will not pertain to Skyline garages and garden-variety straightforward\u2014I will not say ticky-tack\u2014modest dwellings. I do believe that under this bill those things can happen with a great deal of speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe difficulty underlying all of these changes is that the building industry is on its knees. The building industry is losing talent and qualified people to Australia. The building industry is not able to raise the necessary levels of capital, because the buying market has lost confidence. In addition to that, although population changes are taking place and the number of people requiring new dwellings and new residences is geometrically increasing, the difficulty is that the supply side is constrained\u2014indeed, in some cases it is static. That is the deeper problem. Recently, representatives from the building industry said to Prime Minister Key that unless he was capable of bringing forward an intervention there would be no building industry left. The big end of town got taken care of; the Fletchers etc. have been given a lifeline through the role they are playing in the reconstruction of Canterbury. But the essence of the building industry is the person with a four-wheel drive, two or three, largely, blokes, a dog on the back, and some simple tools. That is the garden variety, everyday Kiwi enterprise in the building industry. We are losing them because there is a fear or a complete unwillingness on the Government side of the House in terms of economic policy to inject capital and confidence into this sector. Somehow members opposite imagine that the hidden hand of Adam Smith is going to rise and cause economic activity to enjoy a greater elevation. That is not going to happen. More apprentices are going to be turned away, there are going to be more difficulties, and we are going to watch a greater drift of our young people to Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe challenge is for\u2014[Interruption] I say to Mr Carter that he has created enough liability for the Crown. He has enraged the most frightening Aucklander, Michael Stiassny. We know that Mr Carter now requires a handholding experience by Crown Law to avoid any further liability being incurred as a consequence of his delinquency on the part of the Crown. Michael Stiassny is coming for him, make no doubt about that, as a consequence of his enraging and alienating that valuable part of the religious community of Auckland otherwise known as the Jewish community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e15e358163af4cdc8a27d0f0c49b7712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e15e358163af4cdc8a27d0f0c49b7712\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E As this debate on the Building Amendment Bill (No 3) draws to a close I want to reiterate simply this: the building and construction sector is vital for New Zealand\u2019s economic performance and prosperity. This bill is yet another tool in National\u2019s determination to make sure that economic prosperity comes from this Government\u2019s term in office\u2014so different, so very, very different from the previous 9 years of inaction. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002298a98c01485141c0b93766dfdf727d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298a98c01485141c0b93766dfdf727d9a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Building and Construction: I move, That the Local Government and Environment Committee consider the Building Amendment Bill (No 3), and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 30 June 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efb433ae5e99445ea2569d3d363c7b2c\u0022\u003ETelecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226376b61a8d094ec7b04170142baa814c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002241e58dcd77f24d7b922c572edc67ac35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241e58dcd77f24d7b922c572edc67ac35\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that the committee report back on or before 6 May 2011, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 187, 189(a), and 190(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThe Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative will make ultra-fast broadband available to three-quarters of New Zealanders through the deployment of fibre-optic cabling. The Rural Broadband Initiative will provide broadband services to 93 percent of rural schools and ensure that 97 percent of households have access to broadband with download speeds of 5 megabits per second or better. This bill provides the framework for the Government\u2019s broadband policies. The bill ensures that the networks under both initiatives are open through new, binding open-access undertakings, ensuring that the networks are made available in accordance with non-discrimination and equivalence rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EUnder the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative, for the first 10 years pricing is set through the competitive tender process. As members will be aware, that competitive process has resulted in prices for fibre services that are competitive with those for other services currently in the market. Therefore, before 31 December 2019 the Commerce Commission may not recommend to the Minister regulation of access to the providers network. The commission will have the ability to monitor and enforce the undertakings regime with penalties for non-compliance, and the ability to require the local fibre companies to disclose capital and operational costs and the characteristics of their network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThis bill also implements the Government\u2019s telecommunications service obligation reforms. The telecommunications service obligation framework ensures the ongoing supply of basic, residential telephone services at a fixed price that would not otherwise be likely to be supplied on a commercial basis, plus the telecommunications relay services for the hearing impaired. The bill amends the definition of \u201Cnet cost\u201D of a deemed telecommunications service obligation instrument to require the commission to offset the costs and revenues from providing services to all end-users who had a residential connection on 20 December 2001. The bill amends the process for initiating a telecommunications service obligation cost calculation determination, providing that the commission will calculate the cost to the local service telecommunications service obligation only where the telecommunications service obligation provider requires a determination for that financial year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThe bill amends payment of compensation to a telecommunications service obligation provider by requiring the Crown to pay compensation due to telecommunications service obligation providers as assessed by the commission. That compensation is funded from a new levy called the telecommunications development levy. The annual amount to be collected for the telecommunications development levy is specified in the bill, and the money collected will first pay for any telecommunications service obligation charges, and then rural telecommunications infrastructure development and upgrades to the emergency-calling services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThe Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative and Rural Broadband Initiative processes are ongoing. As a result of discussions and outcomes between Crown Fibre Holdings and bidders, some additional legislative amendments may be needed. These may extend to measures to assist with the deployment of fibre, and, in the event that Telecom was selected as the preferred supplier in the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative, amendments to enable structural separation. Should changes be required, the Government will introduce a Supplementary Order Paper containing any legislative amendments during Parliament\u2019s consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EI commend this very important bill for the future of New Zealand\u2019s telecommunications sector to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29e9312af1540b9b0a9b09d2859504e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29e9312af1540b9b0a9b09d2859504e\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister expresses such passion for his portfolio, yet that was, I think, a 3-minute speech\u2014an embarrassment. I am glad to get the opportunity to talk about the Government\u2019s much-vaunted ultra-fast broadband policy. It was No. 2 in John Key\u2019s top 10 pledges, made before the 2008 election. His personal guarantee was to deliver ultra-fast broadband fibre to 75 percent of New Zealand homes for $1.5 billion. People thought that sounded good. How are we doing? Two years later, and there is no broadband. Two whole years! When National became the Government, Labour already had a broadband policy. It was not packaged in such a sexy manner, but it was sound. Thirty-six broadband projects in communities across New Zealand worth several hundred million dollars were poised to roll out across the country, from Hobsonville to Otago. They included fibre to the home projects for new communities, existing cities, and rural areas. Many of them would have been built by now, but they all got canned by Steven Joyce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIt has taken 2 years for the Government to recast its policy with a complicated scheme that may or may not deliver ultra-fast broadband at prices that New Zealanders can afford. Two years later we get a bill brought to the House that is deeply flawed, a scheme dogged by complexity and secrecy. There was the first dribble of a decision this week to roll out fibre in some regional towns, covering about 16 percent of the country, so that before the end of the year Steven Joyce can get his photo in the paper and on the telly, with a hard hat on and pretending to lay out fibre paid for by the New Zealand taxpayer. That is not ultra-fast broadband, it is ultra-slow broadband. It does not fill one with great confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ELooking more and more like the big elephant in the room, Telecom remains a massive problem for the Government to solve. Labour supports this bill going to the select committee. We have strong reservations. We have already publicly opposed a key part of the bill, the proposal to introduce a 10-year regulatory forbearance period, up to 2019. This prevents the Commerce Commission from playing a watchdog role over ultra-fast broadband and perhaps the rural broadband initiative prices, as it has done in the mobile market. Labour has deep concerns that this bill weakens hard-fought legislative protections for consumers, and exposes the public to an unnecessary risk of future monopolistic practices. The Telecommunications Act already includes protections for investors, so the proposed regulatory holiday is unnecessary. The Government argues that it is not a regulatory holiday, but it is playing with words. We do not like it; we have said we are opposed to it. We will review it, should we win Government next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003ELabour wants New Zealanders to have ultra-fast broadband, but broadband is just part of what is needed to deliver a digital transformation strategy for this country. We want New Zealanders to have access to the best technology to help transform our economy and take advantage of the opportunity that technology provides, and we want to use technology to better deliver Government services and better engage with its citizens. We need digital vision and a concrete digital agenda. Under this Government and this Minister we do not have either. It was Labour who developed the Digital Strategy 2.0 and it is this Government and this Minister who canned the Digital Strategy\u2014the vision that surrounded this new network. There is no vision, no sense of what New Zealanders will be able to do with this network. Instead, it is about ticking the box next to that election promise of ultra-fast broadband delivered to 75 percent of New Zealanders in their homes\u2014a promise that should never have been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EIf Steven Joyce had had any sense, he would have taken Labour\u2019s broadband scheme, re-branded it, and gradually expanded it throughout the country. Instead, we have had 2 years of nothing. We want to be ultra-fast, not ultra-slow. We want equitable access for New Zealanders across urban and rural New Zealand. We never understood why the Government needed to put in place two completely different schemes, one run by a Crown-established company, Crown Fibre Holdings, and the other one by the Ministry of Economic Development. We want a broadband programme that is underpinned by a set of principles: participation, accountability and transparency, access to technology, and affordable technology. That is the key thing, because it is all very well talking about building a new network, but if people cannot afford to access it, then it will not be much good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EInstead, this week the Government announced two\u2014out of 27\u2014contracts for urban broadband and three short-listed bidders for rural broadband, because it had to do things its way. This meant that successful projects already out there delivering fibre to people in rural New Zealand at affordable prices will be shut down\u2014people like James Watts of InSPire Net, who has laid hundreds of kilometres of fibre between Woodville, Pah\u012Batua, Eketahuna, and Palmerston North. InSPire Net charges $100 a month for 100 megabytes per second access, and the Government\u2019s plan is to deliver 5 megabytes per second access. Watts and InSPire Net were shut out of the rural broadband initiative after the Government said it would take proposals only from national companies. Watts has said publicly that the most disappointing part would be to watch the Government pay someone to dig into schools that are already connected, courtesy of the community\u2019s own hard work. It is people like James Watts whom we should be leveraging off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EInstead, if there is one thing this Government and this Minister have excelled in, in trying to work out how to make its broadband policy slogan work, it has been secrecy\u2014the cloak of commercial sensitivity to exclude the public from knowing what is going on in developing its newest network, paid for by them. Why? Firstly, the Government did not know how to make it work, and it has mucked about for 2 years, creating a complex, cumbersome, dual system in urban and rural New Zealand, which may or may not deliver affordable broadband. Secondly, Telecom. It has been the elephant in the room from the beginning, and it remains the elephant in the room. If Telecom is to be a successful bidder in ultra-fast broadband, then it has to structurally separate. The country should know that the bill contains amendments to enable the structural separation of Telecom if it is chosen as a preferred supplier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI am told by the Ministry of Economic Development and the Minister\u2019s office that amendments to enable this could be introduced in a Supplementary Order Paper at the select committee. It is extremely concerning that in its submission to the ministry\u2019s suggestions on how Telecom should structurally separate into two businesses, the Commerce Commission said that the ministry seemed more concerned with the interests of investors, rather than consumers. Even more concerning is the suggestion that instead of introducing a Supplementary Order Paper at the select committee, it could be introduced in the Committee of the whole House. That would give the public and the Opposition no time to submit or formulate arguments. I would like the Minister to confirm that that is not so. It would be taking secrecy, arrogance, and disregard for the democratic process to the greatest extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI put on record my discomfort and unease at what appears to be at least a perception of conflict of interest. A board member of Crown Fibre Holdings consulted for technology vendor Huawei Technologies for a number of months and presented at a Huawei Technologies conference on 17 September, at the same time as Crown Fibre Holdings was directly involved in a process to select technology partners. SAMENA, a multi-continent telecommunications consortium of South Asian, Middle Eastern, and North African telecommunications companies, wrote in its web newsletter on 31 August that Huawei Technologies was hoping to supply fixed-line fibre broadband infrastructure and beat competitors Alcatal-Lucent, Ericsson, and Nokia Siemens to become the technology partner of the successful bidder or bidders in ultra-fast broadband. They referenced John Key\u2019s Television New Zealand interview in July, when he said that Huawei Technologies could be a possible partner in ultra-fast broadband. Tell me that that is not a potential conflict of interest, needing a quick response from the Minister and the board chair. But did we get one? No. it was denial and more secrecy. It all adds up to a muddle, a mess, a flawed process, and a new network being paid for by $1.5 billion of taxpayers\u2019 money that appears skewed in the direction of investor interests, not consumer affordability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThere have been very few decisions made in 2 years. There is the big question of whether Telecom will be involved and, if so, what legislation will be needed to allow it to be involved. Will the public be able to scrutinise and submit on the legislation if Telecom does not get the contract? Will Telecom furiously compete with its existing copper network and make it unattractive for years for New Zealanders to access fibre? There are so many questions and doubts. It is not a good look and it is not something to be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2bea95ff5f64bb680c67fc33f2e0329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2bea95ff5f64bb680c67fc33f2e0329\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the first reading of the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This is another piece of legislation that supports this Government\u2019s drive to enable businesses, schools, learning institutions, and individuals to communicate with one another. It is about amending the Telecommunications Act of 2001, and supports the implementation of this Government\u2019s policy programme for the telecommunications sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe bill is about creating jobs, it is about creating efficiencies in businesses, and it is about creating better technologies. It is one of the six drivers of National\u2019s economic programme. Boosting broadband is part of that initiative. We have heard from the Minister that it is about the ultra-fast broadband initiative, it is about rural broadband initiatives, and it is about the framework reforms that we are to set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI support this bill, and I look forward to the select committee and hearing submissions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac8b00acd4704497a976a174429cab0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac8b00acd4704497a976a174429cab0d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E More and more of these speeches sound like valedictory speeches. It is like those members have given up. They want to run away. They want to go home. They do not have the courage of their convictions, and they are not prepared to stand up for what they believe in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f348f437338c4700b2738cb8f0b4bc37\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a4e372e1d54732acbce7ca0ac0e1f5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCourage of convictions\u201D is allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285eac27fd7964693b911ca73d3a7aa35\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will watch the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed457d93ea2d406fb332d8776c50b825\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWe don\u2019t have the courage of our convictions.\u201D, is what members opposite say. They are not prepared to stand up in this House and say what they believe, and to speak from the heart. They read half a page of research unit notes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7b2cef8af24400b0ebbea70d24d969\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not even half a page; it\u2019s a couple of sentences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022899d5ec8a1c749928c373b5c61cdc6a2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: He is a faster reader than Paul Quinn, but that is not saying a hell of a lot. But there is no conviction on their part whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt was a marginal call. We will support the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill to the select committee, but with severe reservations. I think it is fair to say that some of us are worried about how close our spokesperson on communications, Clare Curran, is getting to Mr Joyce, and the fact that he has somehow convinced her to let this bill go to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285e0a21b80e94379a6101bcfaa49c0d1\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Three minutes he talked tonight\u20143 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877611012f9e4af6af4f81550aa06f2a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Was it 3 minutes? That is quite a long one for him. I am told that is quite a contribution on the part of Mr Joyce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Government is clearly struggling in this area. It was one of National\u2019s biggest pre-election promises in 2008. An amount of $1.5 billion has been sitting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202ef608d65c84f9c929d121aea2a36fe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc806dcbd624f298ca3b32481b284c0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is coming, and it was coming the Christmas before last. This Christmas is coming, but the Government was meant to be making progress on this area before Christmas of 2008. It is now Christmas 2010, and not a single centimetre of extra cable has gone down. Not even a millimetre of broadband fibre has been laid as a result of the Government policy since that time. The Government said it would progress it by Christmas, and we all believed it. It was Christmas 2008 when John Key made that promise. But like so many things\u2014like so many things\u2014this is a case of broken promise after broken promise, and John Key has made no progress at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that I have some time for some of the people who are involved in the Crown Fibre Holdings board. Some of them, I think, have some real integrity. But they have been dealt a dog in the regulatory area by this Government. The regulatory forbearance period outlined in this bill basically gives whoever wins the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative and the Rural Broadband Initiative a 10-year holiday from price regulation. It is absolutely outrageous when we know that in this area prices come down, down, and down. What will we have? We will have a Crown-anointed monopoly that is allowed to keep its prices up and to strangle the public in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eb2ea23baa84596a383794d70e3d992\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a dribble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24dedf8d15e429595216f7976b6332b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not really understand why it is a dribble, but I do not think even the broadband is dribbling out. The Commerce Commission\u2014[Interruption] Melissa Lee is finally apologising. She is saying she is sorry for her performance in Mt Albert. We forgive her. We found her entertaining; we thought she was great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c93bc022324647a0fbe93441eb9f7b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: She can come and stand against me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1fb4e83be24ea6b8f5406c47bac21d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want her to come and stand against me. I would prefer to have Paul Quinn standing against me, rather than Melissa Lee, because he got 1 out of 10. I think Melissa Lee got 2 out of 10. Did she get 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14942e8584c4b3f8783fbe4f4128589\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, get back to the broadband, Trevor\u2014it\u2019s very interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a21e5945cd241f69ce778ec9aa6d183\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I will be interested in Paul Quinn\u2019s speech, because I do not think he knows about the broadband that is available out in Hutt South\u2014he does not visit it often enough. I think he uses the jungle drums when he is trying to communicate with Hutt South from Roseneath, rather than the broadband that Hutt South\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a280b55fd2fd4d78ae52c3747da76d49\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e5b9da0cd1448ca3fca5d5a478987c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: He might go like that a bit, but if he did that a little bit better, and if he was 2 inches taller, he would have been an All Black. Everyone knows that if Paul Quinn was 2 inches taller, or even had broadband, he might have been an All Black. If he had some fibres that connected in the neurology area he might have been an All Black. I am not sure whether this legislation will help him, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESome of us are pretty unhappy with the way that the Minister for Communications and Information Technology has kept on changing the goalposts in respect of ultra-fast broadband. It has been seen to be unfair\u2014and a number of the people who have been involved have felt it has been very unfair\u2014that the Minister has kept on changing the rules mid-process. People have been coming into a tender process, going out of a tender process, and coming into a tender process again on the basis of some very unclear arrangements. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s position. He does not know the extent of the involvement of Telecom. He does not know the way that that will work. He does not know whether there will be full separation. And I do not blame Telecom for taking so long in this particular area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am sure the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I assume the bill will go to a select committee\u2014will get the Commerce Commission in and hear from the commission about its concerns. I know there is a lot of anxiety in the industry around the taxation arrangements and the possible tax advantages that will go to Telecom, and around whether that is fair or unfair as things change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAn area of a lot of concern is the Minister\u2019s apparent nonchalance about what is ethical and what is not ethical in this area, such as the arrangements where one of the directors is acting as a consultant to the suppliers of one of the bidders for the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative. Venn\u2019s son\u2014what is his name\u2014Jonathan Young might shake his head and say it is nothing to worry about, but I think there is something to worry about if someone who was involved in making the decisions is also involved and has a relationship with the people who will be supplying the equipment to the people who win those decisions. I think there is an inherent conflict in that situation, and I do not think it is a recoverable position. I do not think it can be isolated, and I am quite concerned about that arrangement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will go back to where I started. I find the lack of progress almost incredible. I find it almost incredible that a Minister could make so little progress in an area over a 2-year period. I think it is fair to say that. I now apologise to Clare Curran, because she indicated to me that she thought the Minister would not make much progress, and I said he was one of National\u2019s brightest Ministers. I said he was a bright, new, shining boy; he knows quite a lot about the communications area; he has been involved in the radio industry; and he had more oomph than anyone on their front bench. I thought that if anyone in National could get it sorted, then Steven Joyce could. I thought he would have sorted it by now, and I thought he would have made a lot more progress than this. I defer to my colleague Clare Curran, who warned me that she thought he was not capable of doing the job. In fact, some of her worst fears are coming true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBroadband is the way of the future. Our exports will be weightless. The stuff that goes up and down this fibre network will be the future of this country. To have the sorts of essentially Third World arrangements we have\u2014both in rural areas and in most of our cities, where we are way, way behind many of the countries we are competing with\u2014is an indictment on the Minister. We have made almost no progress in this time, and it is likely to be 6 months before this area is progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00229e1d1f4f7b2e4cfea2fd4c86358a6633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e1d1f4f7b2e4cfea2fd4c86358a6633\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take what I would normally consider to be a short call on the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, but in comparison with some of the offerings I have heard this evening, it might be a relatively long monologue. The Government, one would imagine, has quite a lot riding on this bill; it is one of the major planks of its election campaign a couple of years ago. It is one of the major infrastructure investments that the Government believes will turn round our economy, make this a better place, and provide all sorts of useful services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EGovernment members in the House tonight seem to have remarkably little to say about the bill. One would expect a degree of commitment, a degree of confidence, and\u2014dare I say it\u2014even some pride in this legislation. That does not seem to be coming through this evening. That fact has been observed not only in this House but also in some social media that I saw earlier this evening before I came into the House. There were some comments on air to the effect that people were wondering why the Government was so reluctant to advance some robust arguments in support of its own legislation. One commentator suggested that perhaps Government members just did not have much to say, but others noted that that has not stopped them from speaking at length on previous occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI will talk about the benefits proposed in this legislation. The Greens will support this bill going to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, albeit with major reservations, and, of course, reserving the right to withdraw that support if we do not see some needed changes to this bill. We recognise the considerable benefits of fast and ultra-fast broadband, and those benefits are well known both locally and internationally. There are considerable advantages for businesses to establish this facility, this infrastructure. I know from my own experience, in my former life as a business adviser on sustainability, that the ability to communicate not only with voice but also through images is a significant advantage. I worked in a number of large companies who invested quite heavily in videoconferencing equipment, which not only reduced their operating cost but saved time for their employees and reduced their carbon footprint considerably. It enabled them to have high-quality communications to do business over the wires, rather than requiring people to travel around the country. There is a clear advantage to that, and ultra-fast broadband will facilitate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis infrastructure will enable people to choose particular lifestyles and conceivably take pressure off our urban centres to the extent that people using this infrastructure could choose to live in rural environments and still have the instant communication advantages of living in the city. For that reason, I think it is not a bad thing that some of the initial roll-outs will be in the smaller provincial and rural areas, because that is desirable on many levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis infrastructure will be a very valuable educative tool that will put students in our rural schools, as well as in our urban schools, within very easy reach of information. It will enable the sort of initiative we saw recently where a virtual conference was held in New Zealand. This academic conference engaged people from around the country and was conducted for the most part as a virtual conference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere are major advantages in this sort of technology, and for that reason the Greens will lend this bill our qualified support at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe must recall, however, that this technology, like every other, is not a panacea; it is a technology and it is a tool. We have this unfortunate habit of allowing our technological capability to run in advance of our social adjustments. We often invest heavily in research into technology and invest rather too little into our sociology of place and of community. Faster communication is not necessarily always better communication. It is important that we maintain awareness and continue to research and think very hard about the social and cultural consequences of new technologies in our haste to adopt them and to adapt them. We ought not to lose sight of the larger picture or the reality that these sorts of technologies do affect social change, as well as provide tools for business, for education, and for standard forms of communication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn essence, this bill sets out the path for the Government\u2019s roll-out of ultra-fast broadband and its rural broadband initiative, and it makes changes to the telecommunications service obligations. On the surface it is a reasonably complicated document. It is almost perhaps overly complex, one would think, but much of the bill is about working out who pays what and when and in what circumstances. A great deal of the bill focuses on pricing: who will pay, and how prices will be managed and regulated, and therein lies some of the rub with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis legislation gives new power to the Telecommunications Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note says that future amendments to the legislation may be needed to facilitate the breakup of Telecom if that company should win or win in part the tender to roll out the ultra-fast broadband initiative. The provision to substantially alter the bill in the event that Telecom does win some part of the tender means that, to some extent, we may be heading into unknown territory. There is a degree of scepticism and concern. Arguments will have to be made at the select committee that that is an appropriate course of action, and we will need to be careful to iron out and attend to all the possible ramifications of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe matter of the regulatory holiday, the 9 or 10-year relief from regulation, if you like, has been mentioned already. It has been commented on at some length in the interested media; Computerworld, InternetNZ, and Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand, among others, have all had comments to make, and there are some very real and very serious concerns within that community of interest. The information and communications technology community knows and understands this issue best and can think through the consequences of getting it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012099f093f1ae98b472d8650aa4466897955000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e71365b3c2349ff8fdc07ad66be2f0b\u0022\u003EThursday, 9 December 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f24ea25d1274922a657bb54f302bb52\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 10 December 2010)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220eaf056a82904fed93b7f10d489b6260\u0022\u003ETelecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c3670a918864254a9a56556efc3479d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022068e6f63c98d4bc8826c53b6ff7a0a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022068e6f63c98d4bc8826c53b6ff7a0a5c\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I chose to take the extra few minutes that were left from last night in part because there are a number of comments I would like to make to wrap up in regard to this bill specifically and also, perhaps, by way of setting\u2014dare I say it\u2014an example for some of the members of the Government, who seemed remarkably reluctant last night to engage with their own legislation, despite the fact that this particular bill was one of the key planks of their campaign 2 years ago, suggesting that this broadband roll-out was a major part of their economic strategy and a major part of their infrastructure development strategy, yet seeming remarkably shy about actually speaking to the bill. One hopes that after a restful night, and perhaps a good breakfast, there will be some energy and some enthusiasm, which was so conspicuous by its absence last night. So we do look forward to a day of actual debate, rather than simply meaningless, 1-minute statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI return specifically to the bill. There is quite a lot riding on this bill; it is an important piece of infrastructure. I did make the point last evening that there are general benefits to be had from this roll-out\u2014from this improved and updated technology. There will be distinct advantages for business; it will enable people to operate businesses from areas of the country where otherwise they might not. It will facilitate education. There will be advantages for people\u2019s lifestyle choices. For all of those reasons, it is important that we get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EA great deal of this bill is focusing on the pricing mechanisms that will be in place to endeavour to encourage take-up, to ensure that the providers are rewarded, and so on. Clearly, one of the key issues we have with this bill, and something that we think needs to be ironed out in the select committee process, is the question of this 10-year regulatory holiday, for want of a better word\u2014or break, or prevention of any evolution. It is really critical. The experience we had of seeing the movement from dial-up to broadband should be something of a cautionary tale. We know that for people to make that move, to upgrade to another technology, it is necessary that householders see value in doing it. There will be early adopters, who will see the immediate advantage and will adopt the technology, in any case. But the majority of householders will need to see real added value for them in order for them to adopt, and to create the critical mass of take-up that will be necessary for the success of this infrastructure. There will have to be obvious value added, and for that reason, the pricing point is critical. We think that the current mechanisms in place in this bill are unlikely to deliver the optimum price. So in summary, then, I repeat that the Greens will support this bill, with reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u00229c49710237414f278fca6b7c90a71594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c49710237414f278fca6b7c90a71594\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will support the referral of the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. However, although three of our members appear to be comfortable with the bill, Heather Roy and I have severe reservations about it and may not support it further. [Interruption] That will depend on what happens and what we learn\u2014I did not hear that, I am sorry. Although the Minister for Communications and Information Technology in his introductory speech outlined what the bill contains, he did not, in my view, attempt to make a meaningful justification for it. In deciding whether this bill is good or bad, we will need to analyse the costs and benefits of it. Does the programme of activity that will flow from this bill bring real benefits? If the answer is yes\u2014and it may well be yes\u2014we need to ask whether those benefits will be larger than the benefits that would result if the money it will cost was left in the private sector. There are a large number of questions of this nature that I will want to look at when it comes time for the select committee\u2019s consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EAt any time there is a limited amount of capital and labour available, so it is a nonsense to suggest, as the Minister did the other day at question time, that jobs will be generated as a result of this bill and the expenditure of money that flows from it. The claim that jobs will be created is simply bad economics at best or deliberate deception at worst. This bill appears to be yet another example of politics being put ahead of markets, and of the influence of interest groups that are looking to obtain benefits at the expense of voters. Politicians have a huge incentive to exaggerate the benefits that will flow from the bill. I still remember the claims that a National Government made that 420,000 jobs would flow from Think Big. The result was probably negative. We may well learn once again that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Not all investment projects create wealth. The Think Big projects of the 1970s and 1980s should have taught us that lesson. When politics replace markets, which is what this bill does, investment projects often reduce wealth rather than enhance it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EWe will listen with interest to the evidence at the select committee and see what the case for this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00227986c1c9c6b946c3989243cd6aee1078\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227986c1c9c6b946c3989243cd6aee1078\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party is proud to support the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and in doing so ensure the successful implementation of the Government\u2019s policy programme for the telecommunications sector. As other speakers have highlighted, this bill has three simple aims: to streamline the administration of telecommunications instruments, to consolidate the mechanisms for industry funding of telecommunications service, and to establish a regulatory framework for the broadband networks that will be developed under the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative and the Rural Broadband Initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f93de259e24addaf825b7f5c3ffdfb\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Cross the floor on the foreshore and seabed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211ed007e6ce473e9e182381b13a76c4\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I tell you! Not so long ago cramming so much terminology into one sentence would have caused us to go running for the headphones to decode the lingo, but if we go around M\u0101ori communities today, it is quickly obvious that telecommunications networks are rapidly becoming a vital means of keeping our wh\u0101nau connected. If there is doubt about the veracity of my claims, let me list a few of the initiatives that we in the M\u0101ori Party regularly come across.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn Te Tai Tokerau, my colleague Hone Harawira tells me, a group of six iwi in the north are right on the brink of constructing a 200-kilometre regional backhaul fibre infrastructure connection between Auckland and Whangarei, especially established to link rural communities together, or, as the Rural Broadband Initiative describes them, non-urban areas. In Waiariki, Te Ururoa Flavell tells me, they are almost spoilt for choice. In the southern end of the electorate, Tuar\u014Dpaki Communications has developed a superior reputation for its satellite communications. In Whakat\u0101ne there is the development of a regional backhaul fibre infrastructure as a result of a collaboration between Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi and Ng\u0101ti Awa. And of course, as would only be appropriate for the T\u016Bhoe nation, there are the unique initiatives that come under the umbrella of T\u016Bhoe Wireless. Not to be outdone, Tariana tells me that Te Tai Hau\u0101uru is leading information and communications technology capital. Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa is a major player. It has almost completed the first stage of the telecommunications transformation of \u014Ctaki through the innovative approach of linking key facilities such as libraries, schools, businesses, homes, iwi radio, marae, w\u0101nanga, and farms, all brought together under a fibre network. It is building on its success in \u014Ctaki by seeking to construct a fibre network up to Hamilton via Whanganui and New Plymouth, while at the same time looking to enhance the access network infrastructure and impact within Horowhenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn fact, so equipped are our wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi for the information age that the recent request for proposals for the Rural Broadband Initiative saw three specific proposals from iwi. An excerpt from the submission by Te R\u016Bnganga o Ng\u0101ti Porou shows that they are behind the Rural Broadband Initiative and also highlights their need for a network upgrade: \u201CNgati Porou rohe lies almost entirely in Telecom zone 4 and so cannot expect to benefit from Telecom\u2019s network upgrades under their Operational Separation undertakings. \u2026 we submit that the Government should view Ngati Porou rohe as a particularly high priority for investment under the Rural broadband initiative.\u201D To that, I would add that it is time the Government looked at how the Chatham Islands can be linked into these technologies, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has a distinctive policy approach in telecommunications, which seeks to encourage wh\u0101nau to enter into commercial enterprises that build on their particular circumstances as a wh\u0101nau. So when we see the enthusiasm with which our people approach telecommunications, we are clearly going to support anything that will enable their dreams and aspirations to be advanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAnother one of the submissions that came forward for the Rural Broadband Initiative was from Torotoro Waea, which is an alliance that includes 24 members from various iwi and \u201Cindustry partners\u201D. In a statement, Torotoro Waea promised to link not just rural schools, as required by the tender, but 1,000 marae. This is a particularly novel enterprise. Rural marae can be considered as being in a better position to serve the community than rural schools, given that there are no assurances that each and every rural school will continue to operate in the future. And, of course, marae are the virtual hub of all entities within M\u0101ori communities. They are the meeting place of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, and the venue for economic development initiatives, for strategic planning hui, and for annual general meetings\u2014the perfect location for networking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has looked into the so-called step change that will be operational through the provision of broadband services in Aotearoa. We have given particular consideration to the tender programmes to see whether the fibre-to-the-premises approach, or the construction of an enhanced broadband infrastructure, will affect M\u0101ori-owned land. We suggest that local fibre companies and telecommunications companies that will be carrying out the work be legally required to consult landowners prior to any work being done, and as such we would hope for a commitment to consultation and accountability. We agree with Torotoro Waea that marae should be included as a priority for the initiative, and will be looking to introduce amendments during the select committee process to this effect. And, of course, we were most interested that iwi submissions on the discussion document were in favour of the Rural Broadband Initiative, and by default, we would presume, support the programme of key reforms to the telecommunications sector outlined in this bill. But we leave nothing to chance, and we look forward to the select committee process to see and hear the impacts that wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi will bring to the table. We support this bill at its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u002207500a44fe784cf8966d205500a457a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207500a44fe784cf8966d205500a457a8\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to stand in support of the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Well, the future is here today; is that not exciting? Yesterday I read that Cisco Systems has unveiled a videoconferencing phone called \u016Bmi\u2014that is you and me\u2014where people can talk across broadband internet in high-definition television. That will change the way that people do business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EI was talking to one of Taranaki\u2019s chief executives who described what happens when they have a board of directors meeting with directors coming from all around the country. Not only do they take about 12 hours to get there but also there is the price of meals, and all of that time and expense is for a 2-hour meeting. It costs about $1,000 per director to get there, to have their meeting, and to make their decisions. So not only does it cost a lot of money but it takes those directors out of productivity during their travel time. Yes, they get together, talk for 2 hours, it is high value, and they make great decisions for the forward progress of the company, but the time is coming when they will be able to hold those meetings as if they were all together in the same room although they live in different parts of the country. That will save a tremendous amount of money\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233934d7e42b445c1ac6c3141e0fb94ee\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210735489ea1249039f7a24401d8a386a\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG\u003C/span\u003E: A tremendous amount of money; perhaps, $1,000 per person for each meeting. So if the cost is $6,000 per meeting, and that is multiplied for half a dozen meetings a year, then that is a lot of money that that company can put into productivity. Not only that but also travel time of around 10 hours per person is saved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003ESo those are the sorts of changes that ultra-fast broadband will bring to our country. It will lift education. It will lift the level of access to information for our health care systems. It is a great bill. I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e2db41eb3845b7805bde58bba106c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e2db41eb3845b7805bde58bba106c5\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Of all the speeches from Government speakers who have chosen to take 2-second calls, that speech from Jonathan Young must have been the most energetic speech, and that is of concern to me. When the Minister for Communications and Information Technology tabled the bill and read his first reading speech, it took 3 minutes. If this is such a significant issue for the Government\u2014it is No. 2 on National\u2019s election platform, and it is receiving funding worth $1.5 billion\u2014then I ask why the Minister took such a scanty call when he introduced the bill into the House. Such a minimal and limited amount of calls coming from the Government benches shows an absolute disregard for people who are interested in how the Government proposes to roll out broadband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAs I said previously, this is a significant election issue for the Government. We will be sending this bill to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and we want to hear a full and robust number of submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI listened carefully to the contribution made by the member of the M\u0101ori Party. She pointed to many positive examples throughout the country, where local providers have got on board and have rolled out opportunities for connecting fibre-to-home network cabling. If that member can give an assurance, in light of the proposals in this bill, that a national consortium must be approved under the Rural Broadband Initiative and that local providers will survive under this regime, then perhaps it is an opportunity. But they simply will not be able to compete if bigger national consortium providers are part of the picture. That has to be of concern to that member, because if she cannot assure that, then she should question further through the select committee process how local providers can be involved in the roll-out of rural broadband. She understands, like I do, that in many parts of our electorates we would absolutely want our local providers to be involved because it provides local employment. This roll-out can provide opportunities for people to be a real part of an infrastructural project that will make a significant difference, yes, to lift the productivity in our country and to enhance growth, but, more important\u2014and I am sure that this is the member\u2019s concern, like it is my concern\u2014to also create jobs where the rubber hits the road. We want to make sure that local providers will not be washed away under these types of proposals, and that is what we will pursue through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMany speakers have spoken about the real opportunities of broadband roll-out and, more important, the opportunity for access to broadband in homes and schools. I visited a school where the science class was able to access some of its learning through videoconferencing. More important, the particular school I visited was studying what was happening in coalmines. It actually had a camera go down into a mine and capture what happened in the work environment. The kids were able to see, without actually being down there, the types of things that were happening. They were able to have discussions with people who worked in the industry who were on the other side of the camera. I think that is a fantastic opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThis technology is also being used to educate kids about the marine environment. In Whitianga, kids can see what the marine environment looks like using this technology. The curriculum is taught via video links that can access all manner of curriculum content. Those types of opportunities can be afforded when schools, particularly rural schools, have access to broadband. I have visited a number of schools that would be considered quite small. If the entire learning of students at those schools was based on the knowledge of the teaching staff alone, then the content for the curriculum could be limited to the sole teacher in schools that have only one teacher. But now we have the opportunity for more of our schools to access through broadband an international classroom environment, and for other people to look at the world outside, further afield than their rural community. That has to be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are other benefits in terms of business. As we have heard, people can get products to markets and pursue opportunities overseas when they have access to broadband. It will increase the opportunities for many small businesses in many rural areas to get their products to market. Again, that is a positive thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIf the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative and the Rural Broadband Initiative are to happen successfully\u2014and it has taken 2 years for the Government to get its act together and identify providers whom it will partner with\u2014one would expect that the cost would not be a limiting factor. That is another point that was raised by my colleague Clare Curran. If access to broadband is compounded by increased costs, we will not see the take-up that we should be seeing. We do not want cost to be a barrier. A significant concern raised by members on this side of the House is that access should not be limited due to cost burdens, and we will pursue that issue in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWe want to make sure that when we look at the options promoted by the bill in its entirety, certain issues will be addressed. We want to ensure, firstly, that local community providers are not necessarily disadvantaged by the proposals, as I outlined to the member for Te Tai Tonga, and, secondly, that access is not limited due to high-cost burdens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want to highlight the issue of the length of time it is taking the Government to roll out such a major and strategic initiative. We are moving into an election year next year, and I would be concerned if we are only at the first reading of this legislation at that time. If there continues to be a time delay beyond expectation, we need to know because people want progress to happen quickly and efficiently. The Government needs to ensure that this infrastructure will be a real opportunity for them. I am concerned that it has taken so long for the Government to roll it out, and that Government members have taken hardly any calls on the initiative. At least the country deserves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227761ad2e4c2d438980d0db8f3710ebc8\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: We just love to hear you talk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2d6b9b29bb40fdbc3255094933a4ea\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Tauranga should take a call. He is happy to chip away, but he will not take a call, and I challenge him to speak for 10 minutes to his Tauranga constituents about what the Government intends to do. I bet he will not. He will not take even a 3-minute call, because the Minister did not speak for longer than that. If the member for Tauranga is so confident about the proposal that is put down here, he should read the bill, take a 10-minute call, and explain to the good people of Tauranga how the roll-out of broadband will happen, when it will happen, and how many jobs will come from it for the people of Tauranga. I am sure he is unable to do it, and I challenge him to do it this morning, because it is a very important question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI say once again that Labour is happy to support this bill going to the select committee, but we have reservations. Members of the Opposition have outlined quite constructively that our reservations are of detail and not symbolic in opposition to the bill, because we understand the importance of rolling out throughout the country efficient broadband that will work for all New Zealanders, enhance our opportunity for growth, and ensure greater productivity. So far, the Government has not outlined how that will happen. The Minister took a 3-minute call, and every other Government speaker has spoken for less than 2 minutes. It is an absolute shame. I challenge the member for Tauranga to take the next call and make it 10 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002284d01129b621451d9bfe275df486feef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284d01129b621451d9bfe275df486feef\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E That was an example of how a long speech does not necessarily make it a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c52773d5a5c4c068c270743817f0f27\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d219a5949b43889e345608335744e3\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! The member has just complained about how this Government has taken so long to implement the bill. Let me remind the member that the previous Government was in power for 9 years, and if this initiative was so good and if its members believe it was so good\u2014and they are supporting this bill\u2014they should have made it happen. For 9 years Labour did nothing. This Government is about action, and perhaps that is the reason why National members are taking short calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI commend the examples that Rahui Katene gave. They are examples of how this Government is supporting the communities around New Zealand. Let me just give an example of how the Asian communities will take advantage of this infrastructure. Asia is so huge, when it comes to the Internet. No longer do we rely on the weeks that it takes for \u201Csnail mail\u201D to get through. Asians are so instantaneous when they communicate with each other. They have videoconferencing on their telephones. Smartphones have been around for such a long time, although New Zealand is just starting with this technology. This infrastructure will make that happen. For those communities who have family overseas, when they hear news about how, perhaps, Yeon Byeon Island has been bombed, they will get that news instantaneously. They could talk to their families, face to face, on their Smartphones. That is the outcome that we are hoping for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3feff55efb64e04b96524426863e2c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3feff55efb64e04b96524426863e2c5\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, which Labour will be supporting to select committee, but with some reservations. I am a bit of a technology junkie myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223812ee0028dc4caea8d08ac694e28530\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b24861435d45a3980016aafa3d2491\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know members would never have guessed. I was surprised by Melissa Lee\u2019s speech. I thought she was going to stand up and tell us that broadband would be good for Auckland because the criminals would not have to go through Mt Albert. They would be able to email each other across the Auckland isthmus, rather than having to travel through Mt Albert. I was surprised to hear such a brief contribution from that member. It is probably symbolic of the campaign that she ran in Mt Albert. It was about on par with what she seems to be capable of in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have heard very little from the Government about its broadband initiative, which was National\u2019s second major pledge at the last election. Broadband was going to revolutionise the New Zealand economy. It was going to be part of that great step change in the New Zealand economy that National promised New Zealanders at the last election. What did we hear from Steven Joyce? A speech of 3 minutes was all we got from the dark prince of New Zealand politics, Steven Joyce. He could not come up with even 3 minutes on his own major policy initiative. He is the man who wants to talk about the roads of national significance, but he could not even come up with 3 minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237c8f22784564b2d868372d2490a400d\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263119acd395c40b4ae1441013a03489f\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D\u2014that is right. He could not come up with 3 minutes on his own broadband initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EInstead we got the B-team, or maybe even the C-team, from National doing 90-second speeches each. That wonderful maestro of inspiration from New Plymouth, Jonathan Young, gave us his views on broadband for all of about 90 seconds. He is the short-term, temporary member of Parliament for New Plymouth, who is shortly to be replaced by the much more dynamic Andrew Little. Andrew Little would not struggle to find 10 minutes\u2019 worth of things to say about broadband, like Jonathan Young did. He would have something meaningful to contribute to this debate. The people of New Plymouth will be much better represented in this House after the next election, when Andrew Little is their member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis package of initiatives from the Government was National\u2019s No. 2 pledge at the last election. It was to be the great big step change that would have New Zealand catching up with Australia. I look forward to Gerry Brownlee standing up in this House and telling us how this broadband package will help us to catch up with Australia. He seems to be struggling with that notion at the moment. Gerry Brownlee stood up and said that, actually, we have caught up with Australia and we have made huge progress under this Government. Despite all the statistics saying exactly the opposite, Gerry Brownlee continues to bluster on and say that we have caught up with Australia. This is despite the fact that after 2 years the Government still has not made any progress on its No. 2 pledge, the broadband initiative. We are still not catching up with Australia, yet Gerry Brownlee seems to think that we are already doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJohn Key, of course, thinks that the cycleway will be the major initiative that catches New Zealand up with Australia. As people are biking along on their pushbikes, accessing broadband on the laptops on their handlebars, we will all be catching up with Australia and it will all be sweetness, light, and wonderfulness! That is what ambition for New Zealand is all about. It is about spending 2 years to finally bring a broadband initiative package to this Parliament, despite its being National\u2019s No. 2 election pledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhy has it taken the Government so long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe62e65c1884c1993d2c468bd91e272\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s incompetent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224178fa2c4934fa5a8e464b55e5a8c2b\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is totally hopeless. It might as well have put Gerry Brownlee in charge of it. We would never have seen a broadband initiative, had Gerry Brownlee been in charge of it. It would have gone the same way as mining in national parks. How did that other great step change in the New Zealand economy that the Government was going to make, mining in our national parks, work out for the Government? It was right up there with broadband and the cycleway, which have all gone by the wayside. Catching up with Australia? We are still waiting to hear that plan to catch up with Australia. There is no evidence of it any time in the last little while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EComing back to the importance of broadband, I say that it is exciting that New Zealanders are getting in behind broadband, and that there is a demand for ultra-fast broadband in New Zealand. But one of the key things we have to think very carefully about is not just getting the broadband to the door or to the gate, but actually making sure all New Zealanders have the opportunity to make the maximum possible use out of it. I think our education system plays a critical role in this. During the tenure of the previous Labour Government we placed a large emphasis on getting faster broadband Internet to the school gate. But the next part is equally critical, which is making sure schools are cabled and adequately resourced with computing\u2014and with staff professional development, for example\u2014so they can make sure the kids in the schools are making the best use of that broadband. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt is all very well to promise, as the Government is doing, to provide ultra-fast broadband fibre to the home, but if it is used only for downloading movies and so on, will it lead to the step change in the New Zealand economy the Government is promising? It will not. It will make us all a little happier, and we will be able to access our movies a little faster. But will that actually provide the economic transformation the Government purports to be advocating in putting forward this broadband package? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EA large part of that economic transformation will rest with education, and technology plays a huge role in our education system. If we go back over the last 15 to 20 years, we know that 20 years ago schools might have had a photocopier. That would have been their technological advance\u2014a Gestetner machine. The cost of a photocopier or a Gestetner machine was not huge. Now schools are expected to have computer labs, wireless networks, laptops, and a whole lot of other technology that parents demand, students demand, and teachers demand. My own personal view\u2014and I am glad Trevor Mallard is not listening, because he would probably not agree with me on this\u2014is that we have not adequately resourced the schools to keep up with that major technology demand. Putting faster broadband connections into schools will not help them unless we actually give schools the resources to make the best possible use of that broadband facility. I do not think we have yet done that. The Government members have nothing to say about that; I am not surprised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba596f10afc9422fa3ef952c3ca67d2e\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019ve beaten them into submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6c08d859784a79a265ecafb1b5b254\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I have beaten them into submission, according to Mr Hodgson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons broadband is very, very important is that we are coming into a really exciting time of technology convergence, which has come about a few years later than I envisaged 10 years ago it would. We are seeing television, the Internet, and a whole lot of mobile technology converging. I think, for example, of the iPad, which many members of Parliament have recently been able to acquire. That device uses wireless technology, but that wireless technology, through the wireless network we have here at Parliament, hooks back into a broadband Internet connection. When I go home I use my iPad on a wireless network, but that wireless network hooks into a broadband Internet connection. I can tell members that the Telecom New Zealand broadband Internet connections in Upper Hutt are not particularly flash. It takes an awful lot longer for me to download stuff on to my new iPad at home than it would take to download it here in the parliamentary complex. It is all work-related, I assure members; it is completely work-related. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAll of the new technology we are now gaining access to will rely on effective, fast broadband Internet in order for us to make the most of it. We all have an interest in making sure this initiative is successful. That is one of the reasons Labour will support this particular bill, which draws together a number of the Government\u2019s key initiatives: the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative, the Rural Broadband Initiative, and the telecommunication service obligations. We will support the legislation to go to a select committee, with some strong reservations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs my colleagues have mentioned, we are opposed to the 10-year regulatory forbearance period. We think it will enshrine a 10-year holiday from price regulation for whoever wins the contracts for the Ultra-fast Broadband Initiative and the Rural Broadband Initiative. We have concerns relating to affordability, lack of transparency, and the role of the Commerce Commission. We have some real questions around Telecom\u2019s inclusion in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EUltimately, the Labour Party is very committed to making sure that all New Zealanders have access to a much higher standard of broadband, so we are pleased to see this initiative being progressed. We do not think the Government has made enough progress in this area, despite its being National\u2019s No. 2 election pledge and despite promising that ultra-fast broadband would be the cornerstone of the step change in the economy. That is what it promised New Zealanders at the last election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENational has not kept many of its other election promises, so I am not sure why any New Zealander would think it might keep this one. The Government certainly has not closed the wage gap with Australia, as National promised during the election. The most it has come up with is a cycleway, the result of which has been mixed at best, and the \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D, one of Steven Joyce\u2019s major roads of national significance. We are finally getting something with regard to the promise to deliver broadband for all New Zealanders, but it is not enough and it has been far too slow in coming. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022244ccbe33eda474798a5d620ee780dee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022244ccbe33eda474798a5d620ee780dee\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Addressing broadband and cellphone coverage was one of the issues that I identified very early on as a key thing we could do to improve my Selwyn electorate. It will help people to achieve their dreams and expectations. It will help business to be done better. This bill implements a significant piece of Government policy. I am very pleased to commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00221d79d04b27b54f83a58cc56ea034aae6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d79d04b27b54f83a58cc56ea034aae6\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Minister of Civil Defence) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: I move, That the Finance and Expenditure Committee consider the Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, that the committee report finally to the House on or before 6 May 2011, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 187, 189(a) and 190(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228990d4083c524933bfe44735b63ffa57\u0022\u003ETaxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f602b5a00104a67bc525d8344d0d861\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022171c4be3e4be4bbeba0341d45ec5129a\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Goods and Services Tax Act 1985\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223ba8bb9821ba4bc4b3f7cadae885f86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ba8bb9821ba4bc4b3f7cadae885f86f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Oftentimes when members begin their speeches they say that they rise to do so and so, or they rise to support the bill. This morning I just say that I rise, because with the kind of cold I have I feel like that is an achievement in itself. I am assisted, I must say, by Sudafed, which means I probably would not be on my feet had the Government\u2019s next bunch of legislation already been passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn all seriousness I say that I am particularly happy to take a call because we are witnessing today a most grievous abuse of the parliamentary process. The Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill was an innocuous little remedial bill that was agreed by unanimous consent at the first reading, and by all parties around the table at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It tidied up a few tax glitches. The only thing that was strange about it was that there was so little in it, which seemed like a bit of a mystery. Zero rating some farm transactions was about as far as it went. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENow the truth is revealed. The whole point of this bill was the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper dropped on the House last night, which is a fundamental change to an area of tax law that involves $2.3 billion a year of tax write-offs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Revenue once stood for the sensible, decent middle. He should be ashamed that he is presiding over an abuse of Parliament like we are witnessing today. For mum and dad out there I say that the Government is introducing most of this bill after it has had its only chance to go to a select committee and after the public have had their chance to have a say on the bill, which affects over $2 billion a year of their taxes. Over $2 billion a year of their taxes is affected, yet this Government would not let them see the bill before steamrollering it through with midnight sittings just before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat is the Government ashamed of? I will tell the Committee what the Government is ashamed of. It is the sham that is the look-through company. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI will tell people a little story\u2014a true story. I once looked at renting a boat. I went to a company in downtown Auckland at Westhaven and I was shown around some nice boats I could rent. They were nice, but they were expensive on a per day rate. The salesman said it was easy; I just had to form an LAQC and put it through that. I asked him what an LAQC was. He said it was a loss attributing qualifying company. I said that that could not be legal. He said it was. He said I had to take a client out on the boat only once and I could write off the whole cost as a tax loss against my personal income. I told him he had to be kidding; it was a pleasure craft. He said it did not matter. With a loss attributing qualifying company I could run a loss on the company and write it off against my personal income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere might have been some good reasons for starting that tax incentive\u2014to be fair, it started under the previous Labour Government\u2014but it has mushroomed, and in 2008, $2.3 billion of tax loss was written off against loss attributing qualifying companies. The tax losses include a massive stock of rental property. Rental property was the main reason the global financial crisis bubble came to New Zealand. The main reason small businesses cannot borrow enough capital is that we have a national private debt equal to 90 percent of our gross domestic product, most of which went through the banking system into rental property. Why did that happen? It was partly because there was a tax incentive. What was the tax incentive? One could run a loss on a loss attributing qualifying company and write off that loss, meaning not only that no tax was paid in the company but that no personal tax was paid, either, because it was written off against one\u2019s personal income. No wonder we had a property bubble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat problem has been unmasked in the 2 years that this Government has been in office. What has it done about it? It has replaced, effectively, the loss attributing qualifying companies with new creatures, sanitised by the fancy-pants lawyers and accountants who serve their clients and donors, called look-through companies. Those new things still allow people to write off company losses against their personal income, because they look through their personal income tax rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHow is the Government doing this travesty\u2014this $2.3 billion of tax loss? It is doing it in the dead of night in a Supplementary Order Paper that has not gone to a select committee, that no accountant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e64cada4be54ca6bf7ec3bf94196912\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the member that Part 1 is about the goods and services tax; it is not about loss attributing qualifying companies. I remind the member to come back to the substance of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383dbbed36bf41f394168698a186f250\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman, you will forgive me, I hope, for my genuine outrage about the process that has been employed here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe first part of the bill is about goods and services tax, and we all know that National\u2014in a terrible, regressive tax move\u2014has been putting up that tax from 12.5 percent to 15 percent. We also know from statistics released by Statistics New Zealand and confirmed this very week by Treasury that as a result of the tax changes in the last year the average household is now $28 a week worse off and the average individual is $17 a week worse off. That is the average; the median is worse than that. But I will save some of my comments about GST, of which there will be many, for some subsequent calls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI will mainly in this opening call ram home that a terrible travesty of parliamentary process is happening today with this GST bill. It was a train that left the station innocuously and received unanimous support at the select committee until the main carriages were attached last night, in the dead of night, in a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper that does something that is completely irrelevant to the first half of the bill. That Supplementary Order Paper will not go to a select committee. It will not receive public submissions. It affects $2.3 billion of tax income. It has the potential to perpetuate the distortions of the tax system that led to the property bubble and that have absolutely euchred this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENational once thought it was the party of business. Well, it does not represent real business, because real business is being screwed over by property magnates in this bill\u2014that is what is happening. The fact that it is happening without proper parliamentary scrutiny is an absolute travesty. I imagine that officials, in their heart of hearts, are deeply ashamed. They know that tax bills go through this House every couple of months and there is no reason on God\u2019s green earth why these look-through company changes could not have been attached to the next train leaving the station and have had proper select committee scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is a very, very serious matter. This avoidance problem is at the absolute heart of what is wrong with New Zealand\u2019s tax system. It is at the absolute heart of the perverse incentives that mean we spend too much bidding up each other\u2019s house prices\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb14dc2b6efe40a4b154abec83ee3c5f\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about GST.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f3424cbbdf44f597e301c312e52a95\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and adding David Bennett\u2019s 2.5c extra to the GST rate. We have an absolute travesty in this bill: a travesty of process, a travesty of substance, and a missed opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe best that can be said of this bill is that it is a missed opportunity. I say in this opening call that Labour will now oppose the entire bill on the basis of this travesty of process, because what is in this illegitimate Supplementary Order Paper is far more important than the minor technical amendments that were in the so-called main bill. The Supplementary Order Paper changes the whole point of this legislation from decent, remedial tidy-up to the perpetuation of a fundamental structural flaw in the tax system. That is wrong. It is wrong in substance and it is wrong in process, and it is a goddamn shame that the otherwise worthy work, which we all drew attention to in the first reading speeches, has been washed down the toilet by a Government that not only does not care about democracy but is deliberately abusing the democratic process. Why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe can only ask who was not prepared to be subject to the scrutiny of the profession and the public by a select committee process. Whose interests are being protected? It looks like it is the interests of property investors. It looks like it is the interests of finance companies\u2014the ones that have not yet been charged by the Serious Fraud Office. It looks like it is the interests of the same old corporate elite that cleans up every time and has holidays in Hawaii while ordinary working people get shafted. It is happening again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EGST has gone up to 15 percent and ordinary Kiwi families cannot afford the cost. In most of this bill now there is a gold-plated let-off for people to write off property losses against their income through a thing called a look-through company. It is the same old, same old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff87b25318c4662b64fd9d5f59573af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff87b25318c4662b64fd9d5f59573af\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I know it is tempting at this stage of the year, particularly when one has a raspy voice, to try to raise a whole lot of indignation about nothing, but that is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c63079a30846e9bec2ca601be90075\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is genuine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db3672ee86834fc2aede31815caf9ac9\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me go through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022690d200c76ca4a879a4cadc582cf2855\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I take offence at the Minister\u2019s remarks, because by implying that I have manufactured a sense of indignation he is effectively questioning my integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455b0a53108b4072a3787a00a6d99af9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I am sure we all appreciate that. But that is not necessarily a point of order. I ask the Minister to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208d73dba6e44a58bbf5c0c1697e41a7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I will put the facts before the Committee. The Committee and the public can judge what is actually going on here. This situation was foreshadowed in the Budget in May when we announced a series of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3778d4332740d187f7c999771b4bbd\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: This Supplementary Order Paper wasn\u2019t foreshadowed until yesterday\u2014yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284fb02f1cbba4cb6b76a0ae7d7863911\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: If the member gives me time, I will come to his points systematically. We announced in May that there would be an issues paper released on the issue of qualifying companies and the future of the loss attributing qualifying company regime. That was done. It was widely consulted upon. We announced in October and released, in draft legislation at that time, the decisions that we made in respect of that consultation process. We released it publicly so that there could be comment, and there was, and then we offered the Opposition a briefing\u2014which it originally wanted to have next week! We approached the Opposition earlier this week or late last week to say, given that this legislation was coming into the House, that we thought it needed to bring forward its time to be briefed. The Supplementary Order Paper was actually released on Tuesday; it was not released last night. It was released before Labour was briefed on Tuesday afternoon. To come in here now and say that it was released late last night is simply not true. Officials had briefed that member and his colleagues on Tuesday at my request, because they originally wanted to be briefed next week, when this bill would have been passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724822aba4504c4a8d963b03ce03941f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fear it necessary to correct for the record a misinterpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226927fabcc6a5469b82fe7ad77150ecee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No. That is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e92fddfbedce445abb1e7b9eb2914887\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is alleging that Labour members were not briefed on the Supplementary Order Paper. I know from the report I received from my officials that there was a substantial discussion at that meeting about the loss attributing qualifying company regime. So the reality is, and I stand by my original comment, that there is a huge amount of indignation here being raised over very little. We have a large number of interests in the accounting and legal worlds, and in the tax world generally, that need these matters resolved now so that the new regime can take place on 1 April next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have been punctilious in our consultation. We foreshadowed it in the Budget. We released the draft legislation over a month ago, and I have just this to say to the Opposition: with all of the mock indignation now being expressed, I ask whether, in the time since the issues paper and the draft legislation were released, we have heard any comment from the members opposite. Absolutely not! They come in here at the last minute and start to raise all sorts of concerns, when they have had the opportunity to be briefed and when everything has been in the public arena. Their attitude is a complete and utter sham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef856f83d23d4578850c8f6d3b9dd848\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef856f83d23d4578850c8f6d3b9dd848\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I accept the member\u2019s word that briefings were offered. I am assured by people on my left that Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne was not given to people at that briefing, and that the draft legislation vehicle was not supplied a month ago, as was indicated by the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue. In fact, it was put on the Table of the House, or was first seen by me, late last night. I say to that Minister, who of all people should know better than others that this is not the way to do taxation legislation, that the key point is that we should get such legislation to a select committee and have hearings on it there. Otherwise, if we take this sort of approach, legislation that might otherwise get support from Labour will be rejected and fought over on matters of process and detail right to the end, because of the approach that has been taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EPart by part, and, if necessary, clause by clause this Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill will be fought against because National and its stooge Minister will not send the bill to a select committee. National members will not stand up, have hearings, and follow the process. I would have thought that the Minister, who used to be very, very close to Sir Geoffrey Palmer in his approach to legislation, would feel absolutely ashamed about this. This is the fastest lawmaking in the West. I say to Mr Dunne that Sir Geoffrey Palmer would have assumed, even then, that this sort of legislation would go to a committee, because that is the way we do it in New Zealand. We do not bring in Supplementary Order Papers in the middle of the night and, under urgency, expect them to be pushed through with this sort of approach. Maybe this is part of a play for Washington on the part of Mr Dunne. [Interruption] Oh, he wants London. I am sorry; I apologise. He wants London, not Washington. I do not know what possesses the Hon Peter Dunne, who over the years has generally worked with both National and Labour Governments with integrity on tax matters. He was someone who pushed process on both Governments and did things in the appropriate way. He slowed people down, but now he is fronting an approach that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ETaxation is not an area of absolute expertise of mine, but I have looked at it pretty carefully in the area of policy development, because it is an important area. Getting it right is very important, and much of the stuff in this bill might otherwise have got support. In fact, some of us are of the opinion that the Minister is not going far enough in terms of the things he is doing. Some areas could have been added to this bill, and the Minister might have been able to get broader support for Part 1 and the amendments. But through his approach he has lost the support of Parliament, and legislation that could possibly have gone through the Committee in half an hour after a select committee hearing has turned into a debate that will, I am sure, take the rest of the normal sitting time today to work through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will now go back to the very beginning of the Supplementary Order Paper. I will be critical. I do not want to reflect, at all, on the people who are drafting the bill, but I will be somewhat critical of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee5aa573dd0047818a94d6934fcc7ba3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind you that we are now on clauses 3 to 20.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf8c24bc44f474b8a698a767fd8dc3f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I want to focus on, and in particular, on new clause 10B, which is set out on the Supplementary Order Paper. I want to check, Mr Chairman, that we are talking to the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014the relevant parts of it. And can I check that we are talking about, in this particular case, new subclause (7B) through to new clauses 19B and 19C? Can I check that those are the particular parts of the Supplementary Order Paper that we are talking to at the moment? Can I confirm that is the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229983320f09b245dda62a783cb62015e8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on new clause 10B, and new clauses 19B and 19C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711d662c02a14934a8f673401b1d0736\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: So not new subclause (7B)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231acd1a2822b410c92fc58cda2b38a91\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on new clauses 19B and 19C\u2014because those are within clauses 3 to 20.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd01d1f47d34165a0c30d3e8df1f960\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: But can I check, going to the front of the Supplementary Order Paper, that we are not talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239836c642a184ea3ae14afa5f1806fa3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that amends clause 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d70b18a447409699df465020fc680b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I apologise. That is one of the problems, I think, when we take this sort of approach. I am obliged to the Chair. I was looking at the subclauses, rather than at the clause. I am obliged to the Chair, because that means that when we get back to clause 2 I can make the points I was going to make on it, but I am sure that that will be at some stage later in the evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI would have thought that having a clause on the zero rating question as part of a non-controversial Supplementary Order Paper would be a little stupid and could be described in that way. It gives an opportunity to my colleagues, who I know are very, very concerned that other matters should be zero-rated. Some of my colleagues are very, very concerned about what should be zero-rated and what should not be zero-rated. I am sure that by the time I have finished my speech, my colleague Stuart Nash will have put his name on and signed a Supplementary Order Paper that will be tabled to add to the question of what should be zero-rated, if in fact we are to consider the zero rating of services. In new clause 10B we get to the question of what should be zero-rated and what should not be zero-rated. The member will table a Supplementary Order Paper, and I am sure that over the next hour or so, as we discuss the other parts of Part 1, we will be able to have a debate on the question of zero rating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this matter has been brought into the bill, and I presume that the Chair has ruled that it is within scope. Can I check that there has been a ruling from the Chair on the Supplementary Order Paper bringing in zero rating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to check that the Supplementary Order Paper has been ruled to be within scope and that the zero rating question has been ruled to be within the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0960b08473a41108ac2bcf5d79cf56a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It is in scope. I ask the member to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad37fb501a164f0b8dfa67a11e6c775b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Now that it has been ruled that having the zero rating of items is within the scope of the bill, it opens up the question of zero rating for other items. I know there are colleagues on my side of the House who are fiercely keen on having other items zero-rated and will be very keen to move Supplementary Order Papers in order to extend this opening, which the Minister has clearly opened up in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002201a2ecc12f164fa9bf272241737a7a88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201a2ecc12f164fa9bf272241737a7a88\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very interesting bill, as my colleague Trevor Mallard said. Ever single tax bill, except the increases in GST and the drop in income tax, that has come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee has been approved and supported by the Labour Party. Let me run through the process that happens. We get a bill, and it is normally non-controversial, like the original bill was. We did not oppose it at all, and it was referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. At the select committee we called for submissions, and we allowed about 6 or 7 weeks for submissions to come in. We ended up with about 27 submissions\u2014I ask Amy Adams to correct me if I am wrong\u2014and we heard from a whole range of experts. These were tax consultants, legal eagles, and ordinary New Zealanders who wanted to have a say on tax legislation. As we know, tax legislation affects a whole lot of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe have our own technical adviser on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, because no one on the committee is a tax expert. No one on the committee comes from a legal or a tax consultancy background. So we have our own tax expert, and this is par for the course. We do this for every single tax bill that comes before the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Our adviser\u2019s name is Therese Turner, and she is acknowledged as one of New Zealand\u2019s pre-eminent tax experts. So what happens is that the Inland Revenue Department officials sit down and give us briefings on the bill. We go through it clause by clause, bit by bit, and change by change. Then Therese has a look at it. We ask a whole lot of questions, and there are questions from all members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENational members have a lot of questions and Labour members have a lot of questions. Roger Douglas is on the committee and he asks a lot of questions, and Russel Norman is on the committee and he asks a lot of questions. It is a very, very robust process. Then we all start to support this stuff. After this process, Therese comes in and says that she does or does not agree, or that she has been talking to officials and they suggest this or that, and she agrees or she puts a proposal to officials and they agree with her point of view. We end up with very robust legislation that we all agree with. It is a great process because everyone has their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThat is what happened with the original bill. It was a technical bill, but it had some very important provisions in it. It got rid of something called phoenix fraud. It was leeching revenue out of the Government accounts, and we needed to close it down. Everyone agreed that this was important legislation. There were other bits, remedial matters, in the bill, and we all agreed they were good provisions, but they needed tweaking. There has not been a remedial matters bill that has come before the select committee that all parties have not agreed on. However, they have been made better by the select committee process. Every single bit of tax legislation that has come before the select committee has been improved by the process. There is not an example outside of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELabour members agreed with this tax legislation through the first reading and the second reading, because it was good legislation. The select committee made it even better. Then Supplementary Order Paper 187 was put in front of us. It was tabled last night. We had a briefing, but we talked about only loss attributing qualifying companies in that briefing. There was a general discussion, organised by David Cunliffe\u2019s office, on changes to loss attributing qualifying companies. We did not know that this Supplementary Order Paper was going to be put on the Table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this Supplementary Order Paper, I think that there are some not bad ideas in it. In fact, there are some very common-sense ideas that would get the support of the Labour Party and probably the vast majority of New Zealanders. But I cannot say that without listening to Ms Turner, listening to officials, and listening to a whole lot of New Zealanders out there whom this affects. There are 130,000 active loss attributing qualifying companies. This affects M\u0101ori trusts and a whole lot of stuff. I think New Zealanders deserve the right to have their say on this. The bill would have got support from the select committee. I have no doubt about that. However, we needed to make sure that it was very robust legislation. That is what the select committee would have done, and a great piece of tax legislation would have been brought before the House and we would have agreed on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard mentioned, the bill probably would have been passed, if necessary, even under urgency\u2014after the select committee process\u2014within an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263ce62b6827a4637ae0ad8c75d2bea1d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Not under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7da5eae8c8e42abbfc69b1e20d001da\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Urgency is not a good way to pass tax legislation, but the bill would have been passed within the hour. I know that the Minister wants to get this out there for 1 April 2011, and it would not have been a problem if we had followed a robust process. But this process is not robust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs Labour\u2019s revenue spokesperson, I cannot comment on the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, because I have not time to read through it. I have been at a prize-giving at Napier Girls High School. It was a fantastic prize-giving last night at the high school, and I congratulate the headmistress, Mary Dixon and the rest of the crew there. But I cannot say that I support this Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229540a50da98d42f9883732c9ecebe613\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Was Chris Tremain there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6b4acd0fa9416ab4bdf9d79e5d9643\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No, Chris Tremain was not there. He does not care about the people of Napier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI come now to the issue of zero rating. As my colleague Trevor Mallard mentioned, this bill proposes to zero-rate land transactions between two parties that are registered for GST. But now that we have this Supplementary Order Paper, it has opened the door for a whole lot of other amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe amendment I have tabled recommends zero-rating fresh fruit and vegetables. The Minister of Revenue and members of Parliament cannot say that they did not know this was coming. We have discussed this in open forum for a number of months. We have spoken to tax experts and we have spoken to supermarkets. This is a very robust provision. New Zealand is the third fattest nation in the OECD, and this measure will address that. We have to do something; we have to send a signal. We have to say to the people of New Zealand that we care about their health and welfare. This is not hard to do. It is a very easy amendment. It is not 70 pages; it is not even 70 words. But if it becomes part of this bill it will make a difference to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are over 130,000 active loss attributing qualifying companies, and the amendment that has been introduced will affect more than 130,000 people. But my amendment will affect 4 million people, and I urge the Minister to take it on board and support it. It is a very good provision. It will allow all New Zealanders to buy fresh fruit and vegetables cheaper. Our calculations show that people on the median wage will get more in their back pockets from this amendment than they did from the Government\u2019s tax cuts. This amendment is fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMinister Dunne used to be a Labour member of Parliament. He was elected as a Labour member of Parliament, so deep down somewhere there still must bubble the philosophies and the principles of social democracy, which are about working for all New Zealanders, working for everyone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b75bcab23c4067bbd707155c9f7a8d\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t be so sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3912f18e784f94ab359d0cb0750baf\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have my doubts as well. But I am hoping that somewhere there might be the flicker of social democracy. I urge the Minister to take heed of what New Zealanders have said. Our polling shows that about 80 percent of New Zealanders think this is a great idea. Eighty percent of New Zealanders want to be able to buy apples, pears, and bananas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELet me give members an example of good policy: Fruit in Schools. That Labour policy allowed all decile 1 and decile 2 schools to have fresh fruit, and if members talk to some of the teachers and the headmasters about the impact of fresh fruit on children they will see that it is amazing. One principal said to me: \u201CI can\u2019t quantify this, but I can see the difference in the skin colour of the children.\u201D That was from children eating one or two pieces of fruit a day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAnother school said it had to roll the bananas in icing sugar for the first week so the kids actually liked them. Now the children are going home and telling mum not to buy chips but to buy fresh fruit. But how can they afford to buy fresh fruit when chips are cheaper? This amendment allows parents to act on their children\u2019s advice. This allows parents to go to the supermarket and buy fruit instead of chips. They can buy apples, bananas, and pears. They can buy any fresh fruit and vegetables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00222184d289d57e486a85f064009f913701\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222184d289d57e486a85f064009f913701\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I have a few questions to put to the Minister of Revenue regarding process. The reason that I will concentrate on process is straightforward. I think I am entitled to say that I have worked enough with the Minster over the years on enough legislation to know that he has a certain style when it comes to the development and promulgation of policy and legislation, and as far as I can tell that style is not at play today. I could, however, be wrong. It seems to me that the Minister, who has already given an explanation to the Committee about how these things have come about, may like to rise and give us some further detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister would tell us why it is that when the changes were announced in May, there was not time for a select committee process to be put in place for legislation that comes into being on 1 April the following year\u2014so about 10 or 11 months later. Why was that not possible? That is the first question. I would be grateful if the Minister would take us through the consultation processes to see how the time got eaten up, to see whether a select committee process was possible, to see what could have been done in parallel to ensure a select committee process, and to ask the question why, if it was able to be done in parallel, it was not done\u2014all of those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister is whether anyone knew. I do not have the revenue spokespersonship in this party so I could not be expected to know, but those who do or who have finance or other interests in select committees that might have dealt with this\u2014my own colleagues\u2014seem to have been caught short. So they did not know, and that makes me wonder who did. Who did know that this would not go to a select committee? Who knew that we would have a large Supplementary Order Paper that was not subject to the ordinary scrutiny of the parliamentary process? Did the various experts who were contributing to the discussion paper and did the people who were responding to the draft legislation that was put out into the public arena know that that was instead of a select committee process? I ask whether the Minister would be good enough to give us some indication on that\u2014I think I see some body language to suggest the Minister will get to his feet, in which case I happily yield.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f299320d5e06441d9d33034607cfdb11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f299320d5e06441d9d33034607cfdb11\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to respond to what I think was a very considered set of questions from the member Pete Hodgson, who has just resumed his seat. Let me go through the process very clearly and very calmly. In the May Budget certain announcements were made about the future of loss attributing qualifying companies. In the attached Budget papers we announced that an issues paper would be released canvassing various legislative proposals to address the concern that had been raised in the Budget. That happened within a day or two of the May Budget being released. I can recall having a series of public meetings, mainly with tax-related audiences, in the month after the Budget\u2014give or take\u2014where the issue regarding the future of the loss attributing qualifying company regime was constantly raised. They were large meetings, up and down the country. I know that others, such as the Minister of Finance and officials, had similar discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAt the conclusion of the consultation period\u2014and the date by which the issues paper process ended escapes me for the moment\u2014the usual Cabinet process followed, papers were developed, and a proposition was put to Cabinet, which was accepted. It was announced and we released draft legislation at about the same time, roughly at about the beginning of October. The timing of that was important, because a major tax policy conference sponsored by the Institute of Chartered Accountants was coming up at the end of October. That is the normal venue at which these things are canvassed. It was clearly understood by all parties that the Government would pass legislation before the end of the year to implement those decisions and the draft legislation, because the implementation date for the new regime was 1 April 2011. That point was understood\u2014[Interruption] I tell the member David Cunliffe, who is interjecting, that the criticism I have received from those in the tax community has been not about how quick the process has been but about how slow it has been. They wanted certainty earlier on. That is why we went through the quite deliberate step of releasing the draft legislation. Comments were invited upon that; some were made. Essentially, the changes in Supplementary Order Paper 187 reflect the outcome of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI will draw one other point to the Committee\u2019s attention. Opposition speakers\u2014not the previous speaker, but other Opposition speakers\u2014have run the line that when they were briefed by officials on Wednesday they were unaware of the Supplementary Order Paper\u2019s existence. I will make two comments in respect of that. First, the Supplementary Order Paper was released to the public, including this House, at 1 o\u2019clock on Tuesday\u2014some 24 hours in advance\u2014so the question I have to put to the Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d78f17a3c24cf8abaa5d24a5a5ef74\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: As if that\u2019s good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821490de7eb84b4b93ca2cc561441341\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite says that is not good enough. What am I supposed to do\u2014come to him on bended knee, proffering him the document? It is in the public arena. It is on the Table of the House. That member of the Opposition\u2014I very Freudianly nearly referred to him as the Leader of the Opposition\u2014says that is not good enough. The document was in the public arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut I can go one better. I have checked the content of the discussion that took place at the briefing meeting on the Wednesday. The Opposition now says that it was unaware of the existence of a Supplementary Order Paper, but I am assured that at that meeting both the MPs present and officials talked about the Supplementary Order Paper. Those members cannot have it both ways. They cannot say they were not told, when actually the document was in public existence and its very existence had been foreshadowed since 20 May, and they cannot go to a meeting where they talk about it, then say afterwards that they were not aware of it and had got it only the night before, 24 hours after the briefing meeting had occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI accept that the Opposition may not like some of the provisions in this measure\u2014that is its prerogative; that is what we are debating this morning. But let us debate on the basis of the facts of what happened. I have been quite deliberate in ensuring that every step of this process in terms of the need to make decisions by a certain time and to engage the professional community has, in fact, occurred. As I said to the member, the criticism that I am subject to from the profession is that the measure has taken as long as it has, and that is the balance one has to strike in these matters. We indicated an implementation date, certain details need to be put in place, we need to pass the legislation about now to achieve the 1 April date, we have been absolutely public all the way through, and we have had no indication until this morning that the Opposition had a different view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00221639dccc16a945e584bbb4ff39589a10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221639dccc16a945e584bbb4ff39589a10\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This is a serious point of order, and I would not have expected to have to make it in regard to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue. Under Standing Order 106, \u201CMisrepresentation\u201D, paragraph (1) states: \u201CA member who has spoken to a question may speak again to explain some material part of the member\u2019s speech \u2026\u201D, but paragraph (2) requires that to occur after the member has completed the speech. I am now taking the first possible opportunity to say that I am sorry, but the Minister has misled the Committee. I have been misrepresented\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221d56b61ed2d2437b84fa117ed53bf96c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d56b61ed2d2437b84fa117ed53bf96c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member brought up a point of order earlier on and I ruled on it at that stage, much earlier on in the proceedings\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb9ead592904ecf98f95ec281c4427b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Minister had spoken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b153d7e1232340f8a51197d22842e017\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister had spoken. After the Minister spoke first, you brought up a point of order, and I ruled it out of order at that time. The Minister has now spoken again, and my question to the member is whether this is a new point of order related to what the Minister has said just now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947cee0e8b5948fe84b90760d4a99cc1\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f62d62251a13418bb562f0cab4fe950e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, and we are looking at Standing Order 106. Give me time; I will just see what the Standing Order says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002255873fd3e7ec457db183cbeae04a5294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255873fd3e7ec457db183cbeae04a5294\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise if I did not make myself clear: this is a new point of order on a new matter of substance with regard to what the Minister has just referred to. It is subsidiary to the general point that he made earlier. It is absolutely true that the Minister was generous enough to provide to Opposition members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee access to his tax officials in respect of the issue of look-through companies. The meeting occurred at the request of the Opposition and the Minister was kind enough to assent to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba08a1c550ce4398a6b12dae0943fc39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba08a1c550ce4398a6b12dae0943fc39\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, I have misread the relevant Standing Order. Misrepresentation does not apply during the Committee stage. The member can take a call, so I will give the member the call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdd3ed8fd7cf40c9ae97d25ab6778dd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdd3ed8fd7cf40c9ae97d25ab6778dd9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022288665b90dfa4bf18cf6352caa349bc8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9962793347476f860468d1a264aa93\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In his previous submission the Minister said that members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, including me, were briefed by his officials on the existence of a Supplementary Order Paper. That is not the case. We had a general discussion with officials on the issue of look-through companies, which are the subject matter of Supplementary Order Paper 187, but at no stage was the Supplementary Order Paper presented, discussed, or referred to. I have in my possession a copy of the briefing note that was the substance of that meeting. I have re-checked it, and there is no mention of the Supplementary Order Paper, nor any reference to it. The Minister has, unfortunately, been ill-advised. This matter was not raised with us in the terms that he suggests, and I feel compelled to clarify that misrepresentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00221516fc40e04242b7ba602dea6e2195f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221516fc40e04242b7ba602dea6e2195f4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Revenue for getting to his feet a second time, and for giving the House further information and a better understanding of the issues that he faced, the process he went through, and the timing of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228afb69ef9a2843f3996c8d1e45d047ea\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Think about misusing the personal explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022160a1920656d49069bbe784eb2a1d0ce\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what the Minister for Social Development and Employment, who is running a rapid commentary across the Chamber, has to add to the debate, but I thank the Minister of Revenue for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EA couple of things arise. The first is that I recall a tax committee coming up with the need to make progress on loss attributing qualifying companies, and I think I remember the Government stating in the Budget that it would not make such progress. I wonder whether what has happened\u2014and it would be no big deal if it had\u2014is that the meetings the Minister attended in the month immediately after the Budget were where he and his officials were convinced that revisiting loss attributing qualifying companies would not be a bad idea. I welcome any comment the Minister might want to make on policy, as opposed to process, and if he does not want to make any comment, that is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EOn the narrower issue of process, however, I do not want to put my point as a statement, so I will put it as a question. Was the relevant select committee aware of the fact, when it was looking at the primary legislation, that a significant Supplementary Order Paper was in the wind, or was it led to believe that it was not in the wind? I must say that that becomes rather an important question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291355fd013ec4eb393c86a1b989e1d55\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5f86d1cd0841a6848338bdc6af06e3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have my own colleague saying that the committee had no idea, and of course every colleague is to be taken at his or her word. What does the Minister say? If the Minister\u2019s answer to me is that the select committee was not apprised of the fact that there would be a significant Supplementary Order Paper, I think that matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI also, on the Minister\u2019s behalf, acknowledge his comment that there is a bit of a trade-off between timeliness and process. The folk in the tax world were saying to him time and again that they needed him to move faster, not slower. I acknowledge that. I am sure that that was the case, and I am sure the Minister was feeling constrained by it. That might be how this process conundrum has come about, but I want the Minister, if he would be good enough, to let me know whether my colleagues are correct in saying that they, on the select committee, had no idea that a Supplementary Order Paper of this size was coming. The Minister might like to assist by getting to his feet for, probably, the third and last time to tell us how that might have come to be. That is not the way that this particular Minister would ordinarily operate, I would think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f85798c4e70243a5bbde3adf8a6cc834\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f85798c4e70243a5bbde3adf8a6cc834\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E On the assumption that the member who has just resumed his seat, the Hon Pete Hodgson, is trying to be helpful, I am happy to respond. I cannot comment on what was in the minds of his colleagues in terms of their expectations of what would come by way of the changes that have been announced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI refer the Committee to a statement I made on Tuesday, 7 December. It states: \u201CProposed new tax rules released today \u2026 Mr Dunne today released a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that will introduce several Budget 2010 tax measures to the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which is nearing its final stages in Parliament.\u201D That is the bill we are debating right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI go back one point and say that there is a certain language that people in the tax community, and this includes politicians, talk and understand. We talk of bills not necessarily in terms of their titles but by the month in which they are introduced. It was always the assumption, and I think it was broadly accepted, that a number of the changes that were foreshadowed in the Budget\u2014to loss attributing qualifying companies, to the definition of \u201Cincome\u201D for social assistance purposes, and to some aspects relating to depreciation\u2014would be passed by the end of this year. When we looked at the available vehicles to achieve those changes, we saw that there was the August bill, which is this bill, and the November bill, which is the one I introduced last week or earlier this week. That was it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI come back to the point the member made. Because these things need to be in place in time for the new tax year on 1 April next year and allow for the lead time for that, any reasonable assessment by people who knew about how these things work would lead to the conclusion that legislation to give effect to the changes would be passed in November. It was obvious, I think\u2014certainly, it was the intention\u2014that a Supplementary Order Paper would be attached to this bill. That is why the process that I described earlier was open and transparent to those communities. I accept it was not a process that the general public was widely engaged in, because the general public is not interested in the intricacies of fit-out regimes, loss attributing qualifying companies, or the point at which full flow-through treatment is provided for. But the relevant tax communities in the legal, accounting, and broader business professions were well aware of what was intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have hidden absolutely nothing. There was an opportunity to make submissions on the issues paper. We have attempted to consult as widely as we can and bring those submissions into play in terms of the final amendment that was adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI released the Supplementary Order Paper earlier than would have normally been the case for the release of Supplementary Order Papers\u2014again, in that same spirit of openness. Members would, I think, concede that major Supplementary Order Papers often are released hours before the bill comes to the House, because they are probably still being drafted. In this case we have gone through a very deliberate process. The drafting was out there in October; we are now into December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlthough I hear the criticisms that are being made, I do not accept them, because we have been very deliberative over the last 6 months in ensuring that all of the changes we are making have been widely consulted upon and fully understood. Where change has been proposed, it has been accommodated. I observe the fact that at no point until now have we heard anything from the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00227e39c92277de46bf91aad6c725bab59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e39c92277de46bf91aad6c725bab59d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Before we proceed, I want to say that members have spent quite some time talking about process, and I have allowed that to continue, but I remind members that loss attributing qualifying companies are covered in Part 2 and we will deal with them at that stage. We are on Part 1, clauses 3 to 20, and any amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 187. I ask members to concentrate on Part 1 from now on. I have given a fair range in terms of process, but we are on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6609017d0540308330248b3109a21b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6609017d0540308330248b3109a21b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. There are two parts to my point of order. The first is in respect of the ruling you have just given. Respectful as we are, we draw your attention to the fact that Part 1 includes clauses 2, 10, and 19, and those clauses are all amended by the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e095b8296a9c445faa77832dd16c99ed\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, clause 2 is not in Part 1. Clause 2 is clause 2. It is not part of Part 1. Part 1 starts with clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226f8bac5240324463a593cbb2f4ca325b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f8bac5240324463a593cbb2f4ca325b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Further to my point of order, Mr Chairperson. I apologise for that slip, but clauses 10 and 19 surely are in Part 1 and therefore are within the ambit of the Supplementary Order Paper, which the matter of process goes to. The second part of my point of order is to note that the Minister of Revenue has very generously given further information in his most recent call about the process that he believes was employed. In doing so, he has raised further questions of process that it is incumbent on members of the Labour Opposition to address. Mr Chairperson, I am sure you will bear that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00229b0e0208dbce4ded98050b0de0121cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b0e0208dbce4ded98050b0de0121cef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I will judge the merits of that during the course of the debate. But we have been going for over 45 minutes now on Part 1, and there has been very little debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222c27814a4fea41f89d3504be4e317d67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c27814a4fea41f89d3504be4e317d67\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I take your comments in the spirit intended, Mr Chairperson. I first say, however, that the Minister of Revenue talked about a spirit of openness attached to the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, yet here we are, considering a Supplementary Order Paper that is bigger than the primary bill that the Finance and Expenditure Committee spent considerable time discussing. There was no signal to the select committee, of which colleagues and I are members, that a Supplementary Order Paper of this scale and consequence was coming; there was no such signal. If that is an indication of the spirit of openness, I hate to think what the Minister would do if he wanted to put through a bill without any openness attached to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis process is absolutely contrary, I suggest, to the way the Minister has operated for more than 25 years in this Parliament. He has been known as \u201CMr Common Sense\u201D, but this is not common sense. Supplementary Order Paper 187 is bigger than the original bill. It includes dozens and dozens of complex technical changes that will inevitably involve some issues that will have to come back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The history of rushed tax legislation is always that we make legislation in haste, and repeal it at leisure. That will inevitably be the consequence when a Supplementary Order Paper is 13 pages longer\u201413 pages longer\u2014than the original bill that was referred to the select committee in August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe have given patient consideration to the bill. Labour supported the bill and worked in the select committee to see it through. But without any reference to the select committee or any indication to us, out of nowhere, in the supposed spirit of openness, comes this Supplementary Order Paper, which is bigger than the bill that we initially considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI also refer to the fact that the amendment tabled in the name of my colleague Stuart Nash supports zero-rating GST on fresh fruit and vegetables. I note that this amendment would go some way to taking some of the impacts of the most recent increases in GST off those hard hit New Zealanders, such as retired New Zealanders, of whom one in two\u2014or more\u2014are already saying they are worse off as a result of the GST changes and tax changes that were introduced in October. They are worse off as a result of those changes. Zero-rating the GST on fresh fruit and vegetables would be a very great assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI note also that food inflation in the year to date is around 8 percent; there has been 8 percent food inflation. That is why New Zealanders are saying they are no better off as a result of the increase in GST. Zero-rating fresh fruit and vegetables, a very sound policy initiated by Labour, would go some way to taking that pressure off. I also note that the projections for food inflation next year are even higher than this year\u2019s 8 percent increase. I think they are nudging into double figures, and my colleague Stuart Nash will confirm that for me. That is why I very strongly support this amendment in the name of Stuart Nash to take GST off fresh fruit and vegetables. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI noted last night on television that the Minister of Health, Tony Ryall, wearing a typically florid shirt and tie combination, was at a supermarket. One of the supermarket chains is introducing a healthy food regime, and the Minister was there for the photo opportunity. Of course, he is the same Minister, the very same Minister, who has allowed unhealthy food and Coca-Cola back into tuck shops so kids are now able to eat pies and sweets and drink Coca-Cola by the litre. He has also cut the healthy food in schools programme, but he wants to be associated with a programme promoted by one of the major supermarket chains to try to offset some of the damage that he has done in terms of healthy eating for kids. I hope the Minister of Health will come to the Chamber and support the amendment in the name of my colleague Stuart Nash, which would zero-rate GST for fresh fruit and vegetables. It is a very sensible initiative, with a whole range of health benefits for children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI will look more broadly at the Supplementary Order Paper introduced by the Minister as it relates to various clauses in Part 1. I think it relates to clauses 10 and 19, if my memory serves me right, in terms of zero rating. Labour supports the idea of some changes across zero rating. We supported the original bill in terms of zero-rating land transactions; that was sensible. But Labour\u2019s support has been lost because of the way this Supplementary Order Paper has been introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper goes into other clauses around Working for Families and changes there. We have some suspicion, I have to say, in respect of some of the Government\u2019s statements on that programme. We recall the Prime Minister\u2019s view that the Working for Families programme was \u201Ccommunism by stealth\u201D; I think that was the phrase he used. That is why we say that this Supplementary Order Paper needs to go back to the select committee for scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWith all due respect to the Minister and to his officials in the Inland Revenue Department, with all of this host of technical, complex changes they are not likely to have picked up all of the fish-hooks that emerge when we pass under urgency, sitting on a Friday, a complex Supplementary Order Paper that is bigger than the original bill. More important, we want to make sure that we get it right. Working for Families is a very important component. It is one of the wonderful policies implemented by the Labour Government. After the Prime Minister described it as \u201Ccommunism by stealth\u201D\u2014that is how he described it\u2014he seemed to come to the view that it was helping ordinary New Zealanders to get through life much better than they would without it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe want to know what changes are proposed. Sure, there will be some sensible changes, and there is the odd person who pushes the boundaries. As happens with any programme, there are always those who try to take advantage. But we need the scrutiny of the select committee. We need the process of input. It is all very well for the Minister to suggest that he has been working with the tax industry and they want these changes. But the tax industry does not necessarily always have the best interests of the taxpayers at heart. Some people in the tax community are obviously there to try to ensure that their clients are able to minimise, shall we say, their tax obligations. That is why it is important we have the scrutiny of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the watchdog committee of Parliament, which is in charge of revenue on behalf of taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI would like to know what some of the other parties will do in respect of this Supplementary Order Paper. I know that Sir Roger Douglas has always been concerned about the complexity of tax law\u2014the complexity of tax law. Here we have a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper with dozens and dozens of complex technical amendments, which the Government is proposing to push through under urgency without any real scrutiny whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI ask Sir Roger and ACT\u2014and the M\u0101ori Party; I put it into the same category\u2014whether they felt they were briefed appropriately in respect of this huge, complex Supplementary Order Paper as it relates to Part 1 of this bill, clauses 3 to 20. I would like to know whether they felt they were given the appropriate briefing, whether they knew that a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper was coming, and whether they are comfortable with the fact that Parliament, under urgency on a Friday, is going to push through this complex, technical Supplementary Order Paper without any real scrutiny, without any reference to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and without any capacity for tax practitioners, ordinary members of the public, academics, and others to take part in the usual sort of scrutiny that has been a hallmark of this Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe have to ask what on earth is going on when this legislation is pushed through in a most unusual fashion for this Minister. I have to say that across two different Governments he has been in coalition with, he has been exemplary in the way he has put through tax legislation. Until today he has been exemplary in the way he has acted, and we have to ask what is behind this. Often, as we know, there can be issues behind an action, and we want to know why the Government wants to push through this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister to respond to that question, but also I really hope that the ACT Party and M\u0101ori Party will take a call\u2014I am sure our colleagues the Greens will have a view\u2014because I would like to know how they feel. The Minister has asserted\u2014and we have rejected his assertion\u2014that there was a signal that the Finance and Expenditure Committee was consulted, and that a briefing was available on these issues. We did not get that briefing, and I would like to know whether other members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, including Government members, felt they got the appropriate briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002251fe7643fb1e4e1b897d6903db8cc43a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251fe7643fb1e4e1b897d6903db8cc43a\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab7157fed61645aea11c85280911bc39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab7157fed61645aea11c85280911bc39\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about a different topic in Part 1 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I will talk about the provisions in relation to accommodation, and will seek some clarity from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI understand that clause 4 amends the definitions of \u201Ccommercial dwelling\u201D and \u201Cdwelling\u201D. I believe there has been some expansion of what the term \u201Cdwelling\u201D was originally meant to apply to, and that it now includes more than was originally intended, so the definitions of \u201Ccommercial dwelling\u201D and \u201Cdwelling\u201D have been clarified to better determine which types of accommodation fall within the ambit of them. Of course, the importance of doing this is that we do not want to create too much disparity between people who own their own homes and people who rent their homes. I note that the definition of \u201Ccommercial dwelling\u201D has been amended to mean \u201Ca hotel, motel, homestay, farmstay, bed and breakfast establishment, inn, hostel, or boardinghouse:\u201D. I understand that it would apply to student accommodation; I am not sure whether it does. I imagine it would, in which case the cost of GST being payable on that service would be passed down to the students in that accommodation. The definition also applies to a serviced apartment, nursing home, rest home, hospice, and camping ground, but excludes a hospital without a residential component, and retirement villages in certain circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe part I question is the inclusion of boarding houses in the definition of \u201Ccommercial dwelling\u201D. I have read this bill, I am taking it at face value, and I just want some clarification. I may be finding some mischief that is not there, but my concern is that as a member of the Social Services Committee that worked on residential tenancies legislation I know that the issue of boarding houses was very, very complicated with regard to where they fell within even that legislation. So when it comes to whether such an establishment would attract GST, I question the propriety of including boarding houses as commercial dwellings. We know that people who live in boarding houses are basically in a rental situation. They are, by and large, the most vulnerable rental tenants we have in this country. I know that the housing Minister, who is in the Chamber, agrees that there are a lot of issues in relation to boarding houses. The select committee that worked on residential tenancies legislation worked very hard to try to find out how we could protect those tenants. The understanding of that select committee in looking at tenancy legislation was that those people are in a rental situation. They probably need more protection than the average tenant who rents, because they often live in substandard accommodation, they tend to be people who have significant mental health issues or drug and alcohol issues, and they are not the kinds of people who will speak up or speak out if they believe they are being unfairly treated or the law is not being applied. So the inclusion of boarding houses in the definition of \u201Ccommercial dwelling\u201D worries me. It may not be a big deal at all, it may not be an issue, but when I saw that boarding houses were included in that definition it really jumped out at me, given the extraordinary amount of work that went on this year in terms of the definition of a boarding house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAdded to this is that I also note that throughout the bill it references definitions \u201Cas defined in section X\u201D\u2014or Y or Z\u2014\u201Cof the Residential Tenancies Act 1986\u201D. Well, this year Parliament passed the Residential Tenancies Amendment Act 2010. I seek some kind of assurance that, despite the fact Part 1 references tenancy law from the 1980s, it is still appropriate, because we have actually made significant changes to residential tenancy law. A lot of those changes relate to boarding houses and boarding-house tenants. The definition of a boarding house under the 1986 Act and how it was treated in tenancy law changed significantly in the Residential Tenancies Amendment Act 2010. I know that this might not seem like the kind of issue people would expect to be discussing when debating what started out as a technical tax bill but has now become a more substantial one, but whenever I see the issue of boarding houses, as the housing spokesperson for Labour I am concerned. I want to make sure that costs will not be passed down to boarding-house tenants because that particular type of dwelling attracts GST, when in another rental situation that would not be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a81d32d7abf342b79182aa9ee51a8667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a81d32d7abf342b79182aa9ee51a8667\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a specific call on new clause 10B, on Supplementary Order Paper 187, which inserts after clause 10 in Part 1 the opportunity for zero rating of services. It replaces section 11A(1)(u) with the following: \u201C(u) the services are supplied to or by the Crown as consideration for a supply\u2014(i) for which there is no payment of a price; and (ii) that is chargeable at the rate of 0% \u2026\u201D. The Minister of Revenue earlier deemed that matters of zero rating are in scope, and therefore the amendment proposed in the name of my colleague Stuart Nash regarding zero rating the supply of fresh fruit and vegetables is in scope, and we appreciate that. I think it is important for the Committee to take some time to discuss that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere has also been a lot of debate so far about process issues. What is accepted now, I think, on all sides of the Committee is that this 71-page Supplementary Order Paper did not go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and there was no notice given to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it was coming. It was presented, the Minister says, on Tuesday. I did not see the actual Supplementary Order Paper until yesterday, and I was out of town for part of yesterday, so my statement that I saw it last night was true. Although there was a discussion, which we appreciated, with officials on look-through companies, that discussion did not turn to the substance of the Supplementary Order Paper itself, nor were copies presented to the Opposition in that meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo the question raised by my colleague Brendon Burns and by my colleague the Hon Pete Hodgson remains. The Minister in the chair is a Minister who, perhaps more than some others, is regarded by all sides of the House as being an honourable member and a stickler for process. It is a surprise to us that this Minister of all Ministers would bring such a substantial Supplementary Order Paper to the Committee in such a shoddy fashion, bypassing the best part of the generic tax policy process, bypassing scrutiny by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, bypassing the opportunity for independent tax advice, and bypassing the opportunity for members of the public or the profession to have their say, on record, through the submission process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENew clause 10B explains, in part, why that exceptional action has been taken by the Minister, because, clearly, the Government did not want to debate in the select committee zero rating GST. That must be one part of the reasoning, because when one starts that debate and opens submissions on a matter that, as Mr Chairman has ruled, is within scope, the public can submit on other things that they want to see zero rated. The Labour Opposition has taken a fairly fine point on that debate. We have acknowledged the issue of definitional overhead\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and we have focused on something that is very easy to know. Everyone knows what a fresh fruit or vegetable is\u2014even Tau Henare probably could guess. It is for that reason that we are able to deliver relief through our policy, which is a gold-plated election promise costing $270 million of forgone revenue a year. Labour will deliver $6 or $7 a week to hard-working New Zealand families\u2014that is for a family of four or five. That promise has been extremely well received by New Zealanders up and down the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe reason that it is important, and it goes to new clause 10B, is that New Zealanders are doing it extremely tough in the recession. I say \u201Cin the recession\u201D advisedly, because we are still in one. The small-business people in my electorate of New Lynn are telling me that this year is tougher than last year. This year is tougher than last year for small-business people. They have been hanging on by their fingernails, mortgaging their homes and just trying to keep the staff paid and the businesses ticking over. This year is tougher than last year because they are running out of equity with which to do that. The interesting thing is that talking to the big end of town\u2014and Labour members have been out and about talking to the corporate sector quite a bit lately\u2014the message we are getting, to quote one chief executive officer last week, is never has so much popularity been used by so many for so little. \u201CWhat is this Government doing?\u201D, they ask; \u201CWhat were they thinking during 10 years in Opposition that they have so little new to contribute to public debate?\u201D. Those questions are relevant to this bill, because one of the key areas of economic structural reform that are needed is the rebalancing of the tax system to avoid the blowout in property investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMr Chairman, I see your finger poised on the button and I remind you that I have one call still to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1c257db58f47d28a58ad778a63ef70\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f7d4f79fe24fa2a20414e9b997b5de\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. This will be my final call on Part 1\u2014but it is going to be a long day\u2014which would include new clause 10B, \u201CZero-rating of services\u201D, and I have offered a short call in support of Labour\u2019s amendment to zero-rate fresh fruit and vegetables, and I thank colleagues for that amendment. I bring the Committee back to the issue of process. Whatever the merits of that amendment, the select committee should have had the opportunity to discuss it, alongside the issue of whether it was propitious to zero-rate other services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe economic context into which this Supplementary Order Paper falls, as I have said before, is particularly important because the rebalancing of the tax system has been said by the Government to be one of its most core objectives. The Government set up the Tax Working Group, which it lauded and hailed, but then it refused to implement most of its recommendations. If we thought about the recommendations in terms of a menu in a restaurant, the entr\u00E9e would be things like building depreciation, and the main would be things like a land tax, the risk-free return rate, or some variant on a capital gains regime that rebalanced the capital income boundary\u2014in particular, in relation to the property sector, which is the subject of this matter. But the Government refused to make the structural changes. It is very, very interesting that this Supplementary Order Paper, which is a very timid step forward in respect of reform of loss attributing qualifying companies, which are the main legal vehicle for holding property assets\u2014this timid step forward, small as it is, capturing only around $100 million of revenue, as it does\u2014could have gone through a select committee process and we could have checked whether the definitions could be broadened, or the scope could be broadened, or look-through companies could be made more effective. And it would have been in the context of a bill that up until this point has had the unanimous support of all parties\u2014all parties. This Minister has single-handedly torpedoed the consensus of the House, which could have smoothed this bill through, by not putting the most important amendments, which are contained in this Supplementary Order Paper, before the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt really is a surprise to see that coming from that Minister, whom we have had a high degree of respect for across successive Governments, because, forgetting the politics, he has always had a detailed and fair handle on revenue issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adbe89cddf6a4e0cb735197522309235\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: He needs to answer my question about boarding houses, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd824e05d8b471fb9091475f46e3b46\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: He needs to answer the question about boarding houses. I hope he will take a call. I apologise to my colleague for interceding as I did, but I felt it was very important to come back to the issue of zero rating before we lost the opportunity of the debate on Part 1 to commend the amendment that I believe the Hon Trevor Mallard had a hand in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260813e6631dd49c2b99af215d7ac9452\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I had no hand in this\u2014maybe a finger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b70fa4dded4e1b92eed925aa2b1998\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with my colleague Mr Nash. So it was a team effort on the Labour side of the Chamber, as always, because we do operate as a collective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EZero rating of goods and services is important. One of the reasons it is important is that it will provide relief to hard-working Kiwi families. The other reason is that it gives us an opportunity, if we look specifically at the property sector, to rebalance some of those bubbles at the income capital boundary. The fact is they are pumping air into the property balloon, which has popped. The thing about bubbles is they pop, lots of people go broke, and lots of people get hurt. Strangely enough, it is always the poor who get hurt the most. They socialise the losses, while the rich privatise the profits, most often. Then about 7 to 10 years later we come back and have another bubble. How long will it be before the next property bubble occurs because this Government, at this point in history, did not have the fortitude to take the structural steps that were needed to prevent it from recurring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt would have been good for the select committee to be able to address itself to those concerns by the Supplementary Order Paper having been tabled in the normal way. It could have been done. The Minister says he was consulting the profession. I find it reprehensible, then, that members of the profession were told things that members of the Opposition and other parties were not because the bill was not put before the select committee. There is no way of changing that. I invite the Minister to take a brief call to explain again why the Supplementary Order Paper did not go to the select committee, and to address the concerns raised by my colleague Moana Mackey in respect of particular technical question around the GST consequences in respect of boarding houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee3ceb7df7a74cc7bc80958c61f699b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee3ceb7df7a74cc7bc80958c61f699b9\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d0d0e802524994ae1c34f496a4a328\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I will take two more calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220be005d8a8d24c71a9d510d3f057d9c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220be005d8a8d24c71a9d510d3f057d9c7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, to focus on clauses 15B and 16 in Part 1 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, as opposed to Supplementary Order Paper 187 in his name. If it is all right with you, Mr Chair, I will take one of the calls and my colleague will use the next one. I am not sure whether he will speak on this issue as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI just go to clause 16, \u201CDeduction of tax from payment due to defaulters\u201D, and I will focus on the arrangements where money is held in a joint bank account. It occurs to me that a number of people have joint bank accounts or arrangements\u2014for example, trust lawyers. There are a number of circumstances where individuals are signatories of a bank account and money is paid into it, which theoretically as a trustee they can draw out, and it might be that only their signature is required. According to new subsection (1B)(b) of section 43, in clause 16, money can be withdrawn on their signature. But what happens if that money, despite being in a joint bank account, is actually the property of the other signatory of the bank account? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Minister proposes that notwithstanding the money belonging to someone else, the Inland Revenue Department is able to go into a bank account\u2014an account that does not contain money that the department has put in but contains money that is absolutely independently there. I am looking at some of my colleagues and slightly blaming them here. How come there was a proposal that we would support legislation to allow the Inland Revenue Department to go into an account and take out money that does not belong to the tax defaulter? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to know why Sir Roger Douglas is supporting legislation that would allow the Inland Revenue Department to take money that belongs to a third party out of an account, to satisfy the debt of a defaulter whose money it is not. The Inland Revenue Department goes into an account, which is not solely in the name of the defaulter\u2014it is in two names; the money held in it belongs to a third party\u2014and Roger Douglas is supporting legislation that allows the Inland Revenue Department to go into that account, with no notice to anyone, with no pleases and no thankyous, and confiscate that cash. [Interruption] The member says \u201Crubbish\u201D. The member has not read the bill, because that is exactly what clause 16 of this bill does. That is exactly what clause 16 of this bill does. I want to know whether Roger Douglas, who is meant to stand for freedoms, for the integrity of bank accounts, and for not having State involvement, thinks that is an appropriate thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do not want to say there are an excessive number of tax-defaulting lawyers, but there are a few lawyers around who are signatories, as trustees, to bank accounts. Like Chris Finlayson, they are not currently operating them. The accounts are nothing to do with them, but there is money in those accounts that does not belong to them. I just ask why the Inland Revenue Department should have the remedy of going into those accounts, which might not have been used for 20 years by the tax defaulter, and take money from those accounts. What can be right about that? What are the ethics of that situation, whereby we are giving an enormous power to the State to confiscate money to satisfy a tax debt by taking money from someone who is not the defaulter? Confiscating money from someone who is not the defaulter is something that I think needs to be looked at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAnother area, which I am not sure whether my colleague will pick up on as he takes a call in 5 seconds\u2019 time, is the question of clause 15B, on credit and debit notes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00228fec7b80396e460988e0bf76c3631e43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fec7b80396e460988e0bf76c3631e43\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Trevor Mallard brings up a very good point, and I will tell members why I think it is such a good point. It is because the bill as originally put forward was quite wide. It was quite wide and we had major concerns about that. Sir Roger Douglas spoke at length about it. I did, David Cunliffe did, Brendon Burns did\u2014everyone expressed outrage that this could actually occur. In fact, it was quite a long and robust debate. Roger Douglas became animated, the tax officials were sent scurrying, and they came back with a suggestion that was not good enough for the select committee. They went away again and came back with a whole lot of assurances. But the point that the Hon Trevor Mallard has brought up is very relevant. What happened with this bill is that it went to the select committee, and members sitting on that committee had a whole lot of questions about it. So the members presented those questions to the tax officials and the tax officials said: \u201CWe hear what you are saying, let\u2019s go out and consult and come back with suggestions.\u201D And do members know what? The changes were made. The changes were made to this legislation because Sir Roger Douglas, the Hon David Cunliffe, Brendon Burns, I, and the National members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee scrutinised this very robustly. We said that we had the same concerns that Trevor Mallard has brought up. We had exactly these same concerns, so it was altered. That is what the select committee process allows. It allows bills to be scrutinised with other eyes, with different eyes, and the necessary changes to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EOne thing I would like to talk about is the amendment to insert new clause 10(2) that I tabled with regard to zero-rating the supply of fresh fruit and vegetables. Mr Cunliffe asked Tau Henare a very interesting question as to whether he was a fruit or vegetable. Some say he is a fruit, I suspect he is a vegetable, but that does not really matter. The bottom line is that this is quite easy to ring-fence and clarify. People asked about the lettuce in a McDonald\u2019s hamburger. That is pretty obviously not covered because it has been processed in some way, shape, or form. One cannot put a huge, big, fresh lettuce between two buns and not call that processed. It is a very easy distinction to make. When a member or any New Zealander goes into a supermarket, if they can see a fresh apple in an unprocessed form sitting there, it has not been processed. If they go in and see a can that has apple quarters in syrup, that has been processed. It is pretty simple. That is why we have drafted the subclause like this, because it is very much common-sense legislation. It is very much a common-sense amendment that we are asking the Minister to include. I would like to ask the Minister, first, to let us know whether he will support this, because it is common sense. It is very much common-sense legislation that will help all New Zealanders from the cradle to the grave\u2014from the cradle to the grave. It is about providing them with cheap options to allow them to live a healthy lifestyle, and we all want that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAt the moment the only group leading the healthy lifestyle charge is the private sector. As my colleague Brendon Burns mentioned, the Hon Tony Ryall turned up at a supermarket that is promoting healthy lifestyles. Why cannot the Government be seen to be promoting healthy lifestyles? Is not one of our roles to send signals out to the public about what we believe is right? Is it not part of our role to actually do what is right for the people of New Zealand? Well, this is right for the people of New Zealand. It is right for the people of Christchurch, and it is right for the people of Waikato. My friend on the Finance and Expenditure Committee the honourable David Bennett says that the people of Waikato are suffering because of a drought up there. I heard a man last night say that people there want some special assistance. All they want to do is provide fruit and vegetables on the family table. That is what that south Waikato farmer said. This amendment will help that south Waikato farmer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f996cd39dfbe4b7588aef81df4248310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f996cd39dfbe4b7588aef81df4248310\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a8f8654c5444bca82c26decd0bf1b1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has to actually quote exactly what the closure motion is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc91fae643d14a52bfed4e1f4ebed727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc91fae643d14a52bfed4e1f4ebed727\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to my colleagues who did not recognise the fact that Tau Henare made yet another error\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125da01676494880a64475be305cde9b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to quote to you what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccabbf925dc64ab89a266a4ab927c740\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc9d70d4fed43d7b4d6895d7e58359d\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: It was \u201CI move, That the question be now put.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d39f858e6a4429f8d0ff2ec413f56fc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled. I have ruled. Sit down. Sit down or you are out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0b013153c47409b8f8889a534c1ff1c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think we had a chocolate-covered banana, did we not? That is what we got for Tau Henare in the end. We could not get something that was brown on the outside and yellow in the middle other than a chocolate-covered banana\u2014and a chocolate-covered banana with very poor literacy skills. That is the party of national standards. That is the party of national standards and Tau Henare cannot even read out a simple bit of paper. No, to be fair, Aaron Gilmore might have written it down for him and he read it accurately. Aaron Gilmore wrote it down for him and he read it accurately. I apologise to Tau Henare. His literacy skills might not be a problem for him; he might have read exactly what Aaron Gilmore wrote. But then Aaron Gilmore is perfect. He tells us all the time. Aaron Gilmore drafted this Supplementary Order Paper in his sleep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dbd603177d543d18d8868e20f9cc596\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This speaker has been going for about 1 minute and I have yet to hear anything on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7af5c1b61d4a3bb157b8a2b5fbc8d5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am the judge of that. I ask the member to speak on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e032c6a00706482981d4746e1bea3dbe\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The discussion that Tau Henare had on Part 1 was pathetic. It was absolutely pathetic. He tried to say \u201CI move the question be now put.\u201D, but he did not even get it right. That was his sole contribution. Did Aaron Gilmore make a speech? He is the expert! No, he did not make a speech. He got the closure motion right, to be fair. He got it right, but I do not know whether he misread what he wrote down and got it right that way or whether he read it accurately. His contribution on the bill was\u2014[Interruption]\u2014I agree, Aaron Gilmore\u2019s contribution was very limited. There was a very limited contribution from Aaron Gilmore on this particular bill. [Interruption] No, I think it is fair to say it was one of his better contributions. It was one of the biggest contributions that he has made in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI say to my colleague Stuart Nash that I was not convinced by his speech. There was one point that was absolutely valid, and that was that clause 16 of the bill was improved by the select committee. There is no doubt. One only has to look at the addition of \u201Cor other authorisation\u201D\u2014although that probably modernises it slightly\u2014and, more so, new subsection (1C), which states that subsection (1B): \u201Cdoes not apply when the joint bank account is an account of a partnership that files a return \u2026\u201D. But that does not cover a trust arrangement. A trust is not a joint partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a5ea461ba9d45f6875fe8ca53b42a84\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: A loan trust. The taxpayer does not own the trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8eaa6e66b449149966aac56ea6ef89\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely right; it does not stop the money coming out of it, because it is a bank account. A trust has a bank account. The person does not have to own it. The person does not have to own the money, according to this bill; all he or she has to do is be a signatory or a name on a bank account. There is no question of the ownership of the money being in the person. This can take money out of trust accounts of defaulting lawyers that actually belongs to third parties, just because a lawyer happens to be a signatory on the bank account\u2014just because a lawyer happens to be a signatory. That is an absolute outrage. I do not know why Stuart Nash is defending the Government. I do not know why Stuart Nash and my other colleagues are supporting the Government in this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a4a5d525ff4609aaa9bce062dcf140\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not; we\u2019re voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c57dc8d931e4678ae229f1ff69e81f8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: We are voting against it now but probably for the wrong reasons. I do not know why he was going to support it. I wonder about the whole economic team on this side, frankly. I wonder whether they have been duped by Peter Dunne and this legislation into allowing a sneaky way for the Inland Revenue Department to go into lawyers\u2019 trusts accounts and take money out that does not belong to the defaulting lawyers but to third parties, only because the person\u2014the lawyer, the defaulter\u2014is a signatory on the account. That is all that is required. Clearly there is an exception under new subsection (1C), but that is a relatively minor exception. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002203c35e0d12b34c14ac3b1a94da10d037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203c35e0d12b34c14ac3b1a94da10d037\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f7a9deeb57ad410893aac8711658e99a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000244\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 69, Noes 51.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002225011197a1e14dcb96b921862523b5da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225011197a1e14dcb96b921862523b5da\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to adjust the Green total from 9 votes to 8 votes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022509dce40548b4fed8827dc5c5cdf5643\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to change the vote of the Green Party from 9 votes to 8 votes. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is no objection. The new vote results are Ayes 69, Noes 51.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a5d741473d42e39ef0194fbcd38b6f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Stuart Nash\u2019s typescript amendment to clause 10 is ruled out of order as it does not meet the 24-hour rule under Standing Order 320.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d303afd2f13d45239e8570f8a3dfe3c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d303afd2f13d45239e8570f8a3dfe3c2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can we have an assurance that the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper was on the Table 24 hours before. If our amendment is ruled out then his Supplementary Order Paper should be ruled out as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221825787cdd6448a2b539851da7342091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221825787cdd6448a2b539851da7342091\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The Supplementary Order Paper was released on Tuesday. This ruling is about an amendment from Stuart Nash. The 24-hour rule under Standing Order 320 applies. I am ruling on that basis, not on any other criteria. It is ruled out of order under Standing Order 320.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002274f669fe2ec64579a8bf061a69c16423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274f669fe2ec64579a8bf061a69c16423\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Although I reserve the position to recall the Speaker on that question, the assurance I was looking for was not the time of public release but the time of the tabling of the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, and whether it was, in fact, tabled 24 hours ago. I first noticed the Supplementary Order Paper late last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdb34089292c4acc98c7a0a987a43e2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdb34089292c4acc98c7a0a987a43e2b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that Standing Order 296 is the relevant Standing Order. The Supplementary Order Paper was lodged in the public domain on Tuesday. That is the operative date, so it meets the question that the member is seeking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224540d939bea84ef8b367dcff6c7e5d23\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, which Standing Order was that, Mr Chairperson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b67d5ff178c4e20b553c12da803e2d5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Standing Order 296. An amendment has to be lodged on the Table only if it has not been in the format of a Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022df43edd229e047c39cbbf78c2d485186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df43edd229e047c39cbbf78c2d485186\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can you please relate Standing Order 296 to the 24-hour rule. That Standing Order appears to be a rule about how one lodges, not how notice is given. I think all of us know that there is a difference between lodging and releasing. As a former Minister, I know well that there is a big difference between lodging and releasing. It is the releasing that counts as far as the notice, and not the lodging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221ab52e4475324c30b7a82f2964efd4d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ab52e4475324c30b7a82f2964efd4d0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E There are two issues. With respect to the large Supplementary Order Paper, it was tabled and released at about 1 o\u2019clock on Tuesday, which is well outside the 24-hour rule. There is a drafting change, which is the second amendment, but that is covered by the provisions of Standing Order 320(1) in that it is a technical drafting change that does not have an impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal passages. My submission to you, Mr Chairperson, is that not only is the Supplementary Order Paper well and truly in order but also the amendment is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022da7712c3a6874528b71a3b846cae0c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da7712c3a6874528b71a3b846cae0c76\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I take on board the Minister\u2019s comments. The Supplementary Order Paper was lodged and released on Tuesday. The bill was on the Order Paper on Tuesday, ready for the Committee stage. That is the operative time line concerning the question that the member asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 1, and the following amendment in his name to clause 4, be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) \u201C21G(2) and (5)\u201D and substitute \u201C21G(2B)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227732e73009b241d6b04fcacd57650e36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000260\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 69, Noes 51.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203d5283e8c9f4466a751b531d48b6255\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97a25356e9d4f0a9b48019ec648af5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97a25356e9d4f0a9b48019ec648af5c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take the first of a series of calls on Part 2. Part 2, as the Chair has rightly described, essentially covers pages 3 to 61 of the Supplementary Order Paper, concluding at the amendment to insert new clause 75B. It therefore covers the bulk of the matters under consideration on the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f5068ee9fa4f95a7123cfb4114954b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is some really bulky stuff further on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022504755d6de8e418eaff11be0298baf3a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: There are some substantial matters that come into Part 3 as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c7f4fb21be749deb93b7c1943faab50\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is bigger than the last part, but there is more substantive stuff to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7b44cfa0253494dad5333a1902bb211\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: This will be a long day, Mr Chairman. This will be a long day. The opportunity presents itself to repeat that the Labour Opposition, along with others, I understand, has been forced to change its vote on the bill as a whole because of the nature of this Supplementary Order Paper. This Supplementary Order Paper introduces fundamental changes to tax law that affect billions and billions of dollars of Crown revenue. For people who may be just tuning in, the changes were not introduced at the select committee, they have not gone through the proper tax policy process, they have not had the opportunity for public submissions, and they have not had the opportunity for submissions by members of the profession. The changes have not had the benefit of advice from the independent tax policy adviser who assists the Finance and Expenditure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn so doing, the Minister of Revenue has torpedoed what was a consensus on this bill. He had all parties in the House agreeing to the technical parts of this bill, which alone were in the bill up until today\u2019s debate. By introducing under the cover of urgency this massive Supplementary Order Paper, which is by far the most far-reaching part of the bill\u2014and indeed I would argue that this part of it, in particular, is the most far-reaching part of the bill\u2014the Government is introducing a fundamental change to our tax law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment, and I may need to spread it across a couple of calls, just to set out for the public the essence of the change that is proposed in this part to the loss attributing qualifying company regime and its replacement by the look-through company regime. I will start by summarising the importance of loss attributing qualifying companies. They were first introduced in 2003 under the previous Government, when there were only 63,000 of them, and the total loss attributing qualifying company losses claimed, according to the Parliamentary Library using Inland Revenue Department statistics, were $709.8 million. By 2008\u2014that is, leaving out the last 2 years of rapid growth\u2014the number of loss attributing qualifying companies had already more than doubled in number, to 129,900, reporting total loss attributing qualifying company losses claimed of $2.258 billion per annum. That is an extraordinary amount. We should just remember that the total corporate tax take is only about, from memory, $9 billion a year. This is losses avoided of a bit over $2.25 billion. So over a quarter of the corporate tax take is the subject of flows through the loss attributing qualifying company structure. That is extraordinary. A quarter of all corporate tax goes through loss attributing qualifying companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn urgency, without bothering to go to a select committee or the public, the Government is undertaking fundamental changes to this process. Not only is that surprising but in so doing the Government has ignored the recommendations of its own Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group did not say that we should fine-tune loss attributing qualifying companies around the margins, call them something different, and allow 95 percent of the deductions to continue. The Tax Working Group told the Government that it had a fundamental problem because the existence of those structures is allowing an enormous amount of losses to be claimed. We were told that losses on residential property investment alone, which is a subset of this total, were in the order of magnitude of half a billion dollars of tax avoided per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely necessary to step the public through why this matters and why the travesty of process that Parliament is enduring today also matters as a consequence. The Government\u2019s changes, by its own admission, account for around a quarter of the property avoidance alone, or\u2014taken across the whole loss attributing qualifying company avoidance of 2 years ago, which has been growing rapidly, but let us use the 2008 figure\u2014$2.25 billion, which is about 5 percent of the total. It is extraordinarily weak. Why is it weak? Because the look-through companies that are set up in this part still allow property losses to flow through past the company boundary to the personal income of the investor. So although it is a small step forward and it means that we cannot write off a company loss at 30 percent or 28 percent, we can write it off at the marginal tax rate of the investor, which is slightly less of a free shot to the corporate and property community, but not much of one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe fundamental question that was never able to be debated in the select committee because the Government sneakily avoided putting it to the select committee\u2014this fundamental change affecting billions of dollars\u2014is why company losses should flow through to the personal income tax statements of an investor at all. Parliament has not had that first principles debate. There will be some reasons for that; I do not deny that. And I do not deny that to remove all of them\u2014sometimes loosely called ring-fencing\u2014would be a major step, but I have to say that Labour has not been convinced that those reasons are sufficient in these tough times to justify the loss of billions of dollars of hard-needed tax revenue. The erosion of the tax base is just too great, and it is compounded by the $14 billion of tax revenue given away by this Government over the planning period in Budget 2010. Is it any surprise that Bill English just this week had to admit that the Government now faces a fiscal deficit of $11 billion this year? Eleven billion dollars! And the Government is not cracking down on $2.5 billion of tax avoidance. It is legitimising it by changing the name of the vehicle and creating a new industry in restructuring for tax lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228277658eb09f4850a0d873891184be5f\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t hear him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227024dea19f5e447088670cd2ae7ab54d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will keep talking until Mr Bennett does. He will be here for a very, very long time, because we think this matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292eff2b853be4278b9894743f75f28d6\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: No one can hear, and no one wants to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f67c310c33f4141825364efc933c5c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I will take the advice of Tau Henare, the well-known chocolate-covered banana\u2014I do not know why Trevor Mallard thinks he is chocolate-covered. I personally like the word \u201Cbutternut\u201D\u2014you know, brown on the outside and yellow in the middle. I thought that was a good one but Trevor liked chocolate banana. Either will do me. I will take the member\u2019s advice and lean into the microphone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe point is that an enormous amount of pain will be borne by ordinary New Zealanders who will witness what the Minister of Finance has already described as another effort at fiscal consolidation in the New Year\u2014that is, another razor gang. He will have to prune hundreds of millions of dollars out of the three-quarters of the Budget baseline\u2014hundreds of millions\u2014that goes into health, education, and welfare, and the only reason he needs to prune it is that the Government is not cracking down on tax avoidance. Here was its opportunity to do that. Here was the opportunity to say that companies should be able to carry forward company losses\u2014there is no argument about that. The intertemporal transfer of company losses is absolutely legitimate, but writing off company losses against personal income has to be questioned in these tough times\u2014it has got to be questioned. Parliament was entitled to that debate, and it was entitled to the full McCoy; it was entitled to the debate at the select committee. The public was entitled to submit on whether they wanted property companies writing off $500 million of tax losses when we cannot afford teachers in our schools, when we cannot afford to pay for a rest home in Taihape, and when we could not afford home care for the elderly in the Manawat\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfbc49bcf0714d389505eac8b7b4fcc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfbc49bcf0714d389505eac8b7b4fcc9\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E At the outset of this debate on Part 2 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill I thought it might be useful to put on the table the context in which the debate is occurring, to help shape future contributions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member who just resumed his seat, David Cunliffe, made reference to the work of the Tax Working Group. I guess the seminal figures from its report were the $200 billion investment in rental housing that was generating net rental losses of about half a billion dollars, and approximately $150 million in tax revenue losses in 2008. The Tax Working Group recommended a series of changes, including a capital gains tax, the ring-fencing of losses, and a land tax, which the Government announced in February of this year that it was not proceeding with, though it said it would look at other measures. In the Budget the changes to the loss attributing qualifying companies regime were foreshadowed. As I indicated in the debate on Part 1, a process was then entered into that led to the changes that are coming before the Committee today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think it is important to make the following point, as well. We have about 130,000 loss attributing qualifying companies in New Zealand. Parenthetically, I observed that their growth exploded during the term of the previous Government, principally as a consequence of people using them for vehicles to avoid paying the 39 percent top tax rate. Be that as it may, it is a fallacy to assume that all of those companies are property related. In fact, only approximately one-half of them are in the property sector. There are somewhere in the order of 80,000 loss attributing qualifying companies with a property bent to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member who spoke earlier talked about $2.3 billion in tax losses, by implication, in the property area. In fact, the actual loss is estimated at about $800 million in the rental property sector. The issue then becomes how much of that can be recouped, and how much of it is an appropriate target, if you like, bearing in mind the fact that there are a number of other activities for which the loss attributing qualifying companies model is a perfectly legitimate and proper vehicle to operate within. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is not correct to say\u2014whether it be the $2.3 billion total tax take, or even just the $800 million in respect of property-related loss attributing qualifying companies\u2014that moving to standard company treatment automatically recoups all of that revenue, because of the loss offset provisions and the fact that losses can be carried forward for a period of time. It is correct to say that those losses would be deductible at a lower rate than deductions from the shareholders\u2019 personal incomes, and that the move to a partnership regime with full flow-through could then be transferred on to an individual shareholder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe point is that the changes that are being made here were driven by the Tax Working Group\u2019s initial recommendations. The Government\u2019s initial thinking related to the whole sweep of the qualifying company regime, which has been modified through the process that we embarked upon, which I referred to earlier. The modified regime is introduced in the provisions of Part 2, and those provisions will be better targeted at the audience at which they are aimed. Also, the fact that in 2012 we will review the dividend regime, which we have announced, will mean that the capacity to make the complete conversion to full company status will be much easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a192b8228e44e5951cf79cb355cf4b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why no urgency for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49805d46e0f4ebbaad850020ca2fdf8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The simple reason is that moving at that point in time is about as urgent as one can get, given the fact that we want to make other changes to move out the ability to attribute loss from 1 April next year. It is quite a staged process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs the member rightly pointed out in his opening comments, loss attributing qualifying companies have exploded in number. One can argue the reasons for that. I think it is perfectly clear that the escalation of the top tax rate to 39c had a lot to do with it. There is also the fact that the tax losses attributable through the loss attributing qualifying companies regime grew something like 400 percent during the previous decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis issue has been worked through very carefully indeed. We have sought to obtain a reasonable balance between dealing with the issues that the Tax Working Group set out as requiring attention and not adversely affecting a number of loss attributing qualifying companies, and qualifying company - related activities that take place over forestry, agriculture, fishing, tourism, and a whole range of other activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00223f99bba92edc4734bc59158e995d750d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f99bba92edc4734bc59158e995d750d\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The interesting thing is that there is general agreement across the Chamber that the loss attributing qualifying company regime has probably been abused a bit. The substantial part of Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne, as has been mentioned by my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe and by Minister Dunne, deals with loss attributing qualifying companies. It is a large part of the Supplementary Order Paper. The Minister talked about the fact that change in this area was signalled in the Budget. We know that, and we accept that. He said he had consulted widely\u2014and we know that too; we understand and accept that\u2014and this Supplementary Order Paper is the result of that consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI suppose that where we have great difficulty is with the fact that that is the way all tax bills come to their genesis. A proposal is announced somewhere. A Minister comes up with a working group or a suggestion, or it is flagged somewhere that change needs to occur. So there is consultation with the Inland Revenue Department and papers are written\u2014and Mr Chair knows the process better than I do. A paper goes out and it comes back, and, as a result of that, a bill is drafted. We totally accept that the Minister has followed the right process right up to that point. However, the process is only about half-completed when it gets to that. We now have a massive Supplementary Order Paper, which is actually larger than the bill itself. At 71 pages, this Supplementary Order Paper is larger that the bill. In fact, it is larger than all but two of the nine tax bills that have come before the House in this term. So it is quite a massive Supplementary Order Paper, and there is a lot of detail in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis sort of Supplementary Order Paper goes out for consultation to tax experts, which is all very well, but what about the ordinary New Zealanders who will be affected by this change? That is my concern. As the Minister pointed out, there are about 130,000 active loss attributing qualifying companies, and my understanding is\u2014I think we got this from the officials\u2014that a lot more than 50 percent of them are used to shelter rental properties. But that does not matter\u2014the bottom line is that there are a lot of these companies. Their numbers have exploded, and they are used so that people can minimise their tax. This bill makes changes, but I suppose where I and my colleagues are coming from is the view that we need to complete the rest of the process in order to allow us to have robust legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the amendments to clause 74 on the Supplementary Order Paper, I see new subclause (6C), which states: \u201CThe definition of LAQC is repealed.\u201D So immediately 130,000 companies are affected. I do not know how many shareholders are in them, but a lot of New Zealanders are affected by this measure. An incredible number of New Zealanders are affected by it. The Supplementary Order Paper then goes on state in new subclause (6D): \u201CThe following is inserted in its appropriate alphabetical order: \u2018look-through company \u2026\u2019 \u201D. So this is not a small Supplementary Order Paper that will affect about 10 people. It makes huge changes to tax legislation, and that is our point. It would have been preferable for the Supplementary Order Paper to be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, for our independent adviser to be available, and for us to be able to question officials\u2014and we have a lot of questions about this. We are not necessarily saying the measures in the Supplementary Order Paper are wrong. But we are aware, for example, that the officials put forward two proposals to the Minister about how to deal with loss attributing qualifying companies. This is only one of them. The other one was to actually remove loss attributing qualifying companies from the legislation altogether. We would like to know why that was not considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThose are the sorts of questions that we, as members of Parliament elected by New Zealanders to represent them, could have put to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and to the officials. We could have asked to be advised by our independent tax expert, because, as I mentioned, no one on the Finance and Expenditure Committee is a tax expert. We acknowledge that. That is why we have Ms Turner in there, representing us and helping us out. We could have asked a number of questions with regard to this measure. That is where our concern comes in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI talked about a number of the questions that we asked, and the Minister said about $800 million is lost from the rental property market by the use of loss attributing qualifying companies. I know that loss attributing qualifying companies in general, in 2008, took about $2.2 billion out of the tax receipts. That is a substantial amount of money. Even if maybe only half of the loss attributing qualifying companies operate to shelter rental properties and it was only $1.1 billion, it is a substantial amount of money by anyone\u2019s reckoning. When we talk about making cuts of $13 million from night classes, we can see it is a substantial amount of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister said these changes were signalled in the Budget, and I accept that. I think that clawing back depreciation will make a big change, and we supported that. However, one of the questions that I really would have liked to ask in the select committee\u2014and I would like to ask the Minister this\u2014is why the Government did not simply ring-fence losses to do with rental properties, as opposed to providing for a look-through company where people can still offset against their income losses made when they were loss attributing qualifying companies. I know that the structure takes away any sort of arbitrage between the loss attributing qualifying company rate and the marginal tax rate, and that is where all the losses came through. That is not a bad thing. But I am not a tax expert, and I would have loved to hear the reasons and the rationale behind that. We get briefing papers from the Inland Revenue Department like you would not believe. They arrive in forests. It allows us to get our heads around the rationale behind tax legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI want to know why people were using loss attributing qualifying companies to hold their rental properties, and why they were not using other types of entities. Why did they not just hold those properties themselves? Fundamentally, we are talking about losses. We understand that look-through companies mean that people have to attribute profits from those companies to their marginal tax rate, but why were they using loss attributing qualifying companies for losses? Surely the company structure would have allowed that; surely just holding properties as an individual would have allowed that. I know about the arguments around liability, but those are questions that I would have liked to ask. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat are the practical impacts of the changes to the loss attributing qualifying company regime? Will they affect the amount of rental housing out there? We know the market is very, very soft at the moment; any real estate agent will tell us that. I was talking to a lawyer last night who deals in property, and he said it has just dried up. He said one of the reasons is the changes that have been made. We talked about loss attributing qualifying companies, and he said changes probably needed to be made, but when I asked him what sorts of changes were needed, he was sort of umming and ahing. This person is a lawyer who deals with this legislation as part of his job every day. That is why I say the Minister took the Supplementary Order Paper to a certain point in the process, but he needed to take it further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister said the bill was made available to the public on Tuesday. I would like to ask any member, or anyone who is watching\u2014I know we cannot refer to people watching on the TV\u2014what is meant by a look-through company. Was anyone aware of this proposal? Was it published as a half-page ad in the New Zealand Herald that loss attributing qualifying companies would no longer exist and would become look-through companies? I wonder whether any of the experts that the Minister consulted published in their newsletters that a Supplementary Order Paper would come before the House before Christmas that would get rid of loss attributing qualifying companies. I very much doubt it. If the usual process had been followed, submitters would have had the opportunity to comment. We normally allow a 5-week lead time for tax bills that are referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Notice goes out in a whole lot of ads, so that people can look at an ad and make a conscious decision on whether they want to have a say on a bill. I doubt whether many people knew about this measure. Let us remember there are 130,000 loss attributing qualifying companies, and a larger number of shareholders. I very much doubt whether even a small fraction of that 130,000 would know what a look-through company is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis is what a select committee process would have been able to bring out into the open. It could have provided consultation and released documents. There have been documents out there and changes have been signalled, but this Supplementary Order Paper was not signalled. I think it is the reasonable expectation of the vast majority of New Zealanders that any form of tax legislation that with a drop of a hammer wipes out 130,000 legal entities should be open to public consultation. I doubt whether any member in this House would not agree that if Parliament suddenly does away with 130,000 of anything, there should be some level of public, as well as expert, input. This Supplementary Order Paper is bigger than the bill. We have a major concern about that. No one can get their heads around this. We understand what look-through companies are now, because we had a briefing from the officials. We have a sort of a feel of the consequences, but we do not know what they all are, at all. I am keen to know whether the Government looked at any other changes. Did the Minister consider or take any other changes out to consultation? Did the Minister ask the experts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb63d0ec6fb4daa90e81ca325503de8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb63d0ec6fb4daa90e81ca325503de8\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002288bc2a8b2c5f4d1886ce685a05e5993d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288bc2a8b2c5f4d1886ce685a05e5993d\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on clause 28 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I note Supplementary Order Paper 187, which refers to some changes to clause 28 in respect of Government grants to business, most particularly payments in the nature of a grant or subsidy to a business, a grant-related suspensory loan, advances, and the tax treatment of those Government grants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI want to speak in support of Government grants to businesses and the tax treatment of them because it is a very timely issue. As all members of this House well know, my city of Christchurch was knocked around very badly by the 4 September earthquake. There is a very strong need at this point in time for businesses in my electorate, particularly in my central business district, and across Christchurch and Canterbury\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff55391d771e44e0b37f3b378cc51578\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not your CBD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224935e3da9d4748598f21531a5c68133b\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The central business district is in my electorate of Christchurch Central. [Interruption] Yes, it is, and we are seeing hundreds and hundreds of businesses that are struggling to survive. They were coming through the recession, and now, through no fault of their own, they are struggling. We have experienced a once-in-750-year disaster, and the case for Government grants and assistance is extraordinarily strong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThere is no precedent for what happened in Christchurch. It is acknowledged, from the Prime Minister down, that this was a once-in-750-year event. The commentary from the Prime Minister and from other Ministers in the Key-led Cabinet was that whatever it took to assist Canterbury to get back on its feet would be done. Yet on Monday of last week the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery, in the face of a number of approaches to him from business organisations for assistance for Canterbury business, announced a derisory package that provided\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f9a295f2e0499dbdd8d5e5303d116f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member show me the relevance of his comments to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7ea5d9875d4eec8115f8989f8bf274\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I am relating them to clause 28, which\u2014as amended by the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014provides for the tax treatment of Government grants to businesses. I say that there is a very strong case for businesses in Christchurch to be provided with grants and with the tax treatment inherent in this Supplementary Order Paper so they can survive and start paying tax again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThose businesses at the moment have suffered a turnover loss of as much as 80 percent since the 4 September quake\u201480 percent. They need the assistance that this clause envisages. We are not seeing any assistance. The announcement that came provided a sum of $100,000 to promote Canterbury businesses, shared with the good folk of Kaiapoi, and $80,000 for Christchurch when they are needing suspensory loans, grants, and tax assistance as envisaged by this clause. So we have the tax treatment provided for under this clause, but we are not getting, and we will not see, assistance for businesses. According to the Minister when he was in the House yesterday, this is because there are thousands of businesses in Canterbury that are thriving. I would like to see a Canterbury member opposite stand up and recite a list of thousands of Canterbury businesses that are thriving and do not need the Government support and the tax treatment provided in clause 28. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI am not aware of thousands of Canterbury businesses that are thriving. I am aware of hundreds and hundreds of Canterbury businesses that are on their knees and have asked for Government support and assistance as envisaged under clause 28. It is envisaged that we would see suspensory loans provided or a provision of a grant to a business to assist it, most particularly through the Christmas and New Year period, which is the time when those businesses are trying to hang on to staff and pay their holiday pay in the face of a business environment where they may be getting only $1 in $2 of the income that they were getting on 4 September, or worse. That is why the Government, in the legislation, provides for suspensory loans, for grants to assist businesses, and for assistance as envisaged by this clause, which provides for the tax treatment of those businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESo the Government is acknowledging that it has a role to play, and, therefore, it needs to have the appropriate tax treatment when there is the provision of assistance to businesses. Yet we are not seeing the assistance to those businesses under the Government. We are providing for the tax treatment of assistance, but we are not seeing the assistance. The outcome for the Minister of Revenue, as hundreds and hundreds of businesses go to the wall, will be less revenue. If there is no assistance provided\u2014with the appropriate tax treatment, as provided for in clause 28\u2014the Minister will have less revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThere is another consequence. There is a sucking sound going on in Canterbury at the moment, particularly in my electorate of Christchurch Central, which is home to the central business district. The sucking sound is the sound of jobs disappearing. Every person who is displaced by a business that can no longer afford him or her\u2014because of the turnover and lack of assistance as envisaged under clause 28, and the tax treatment provided\u2014and every person who goes home with their final pay cheque, if they get it, is one more person who is not spending money, not buying their lunch, not buying a coffee, not buying a cup of tea, not buying a glass of beer after work, not buying a pair of shoes, and not shopping in the central business district. That further impacts on the viability of those very businesses that are attempting to survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThose businesses quite rightly look to the Government. They know that the Government has provided for suspensory loans, for grants, for assistance, and for appropriate tax treatment. They are not asking for inappropriate tax treatment; they are asking for an assistance package that will give them the chance to remain viable and continue employing people. I ask the question of members opposite, some of whom represent regions like the Waikato, which is suffering at the moment from another drought. My heart goes out to the farmers of the Waikato. I saw a chap on TV last night in tears, and my heart goes out to him. But it has to be said that farming comes in cycles, and droughts hit farming on a regular basis. Farmers obviously have to do their best to try to provide for those droughts\u2014it is part of the cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAn event that happens once in 750 years is not part of a cycle, and business cannot provide for it. They cannot predict it. That is why Governments through the ages in New Zealand have been there to assist New Zealanders and assist New Zealand businesses with the appropriate tax treatment, as provided for under clause 28. But those businesses are not getting that assistance, and I want to know from members opposite why they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI noted the Minister for Earthquake Recovery in the House yesterday talking about thousands of thriving businesses and suggesting that people were getting perfectly adequate information from the Earthquake Commission. That is not what I am hearing, as the member representing Christchurch Central, from the central business district. I am hearing from businesses that are looking to the Government for some support and assistance\u2014the Government that they, in most instances, probably voted for. Small and medium sized enterprises\u2014like the cobbler who has a shop in the City Mall and is the brother of Aaron Gilmore\u2014probably voted for the National-led Government, believing that they would get a fair deal. I would like to know whether Aaron Gilmore would like to see some support and assistance for his brother in that enterprise. I do not know what his turnover downturn is, but I would like to know. I would like to know whether Aaron Gilmore\u2019s brother is being affected and whether he would like to see, through clause 28 and its tax treatment, some support and assistance for his business, along with many hundreds and hundreds of others. I met his father in another cobbler\u2019s shop where I was getting my shoes repaired, and I believe that he holds similar sentiments\u2014that it is the role of the Government at times of crisis and times of need to provide assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThose businesses will get appropriate tax treatment under clause 28 of this bill, and I wholly support that. But there cannot be appropriate tax treatment if the assistance is not provided, and that assistance is not coming. There is a deafening silence from the National members from Canterbury. They are not standing up for their constituents and telling Minister Brownlee: \u201CIt is not good enough.\u201D We are seeing viable businesses shed staff and close their doors when all they need is some support, reassurance, and assistance, with the appropriate tax treatment provided under clause 28 in this bill. We have seen none of those members stand up. They are silent, and they should be standing up for their constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed5769b7f6f54f34a6c09c961fa4a3eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed5769b7f6f54f34a6c09c961fa4a3eb\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff2ffc95894144b4b552f82d3d9b60a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff2ffc95894144b4b552f82d3d9b60a1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Without commenting on your judgment, Mr Chairman, which I will strongly support, I say to members opposite that Part 2 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which are amendments to the Income Tax Act 2007, is already, without the Supplementary Order Paper, a very substantial part. But coming into the bill by way of a Supplementary Order Paper, a massive change in taxation policy for New Zealand has been brought. It is a most inappropriate way of doing it, and because it has not gone to a select committee, the precedent has always been that there will be an extended debate on those matters. The Speaker\u2019s rulings have regularly been over many years that when legislation has not gone to a select committee the Committee of the whole House stage is extended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe25b095d9a34d11a6d41cde6b12a6b9\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: When did you become the Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74e1310e8b94c5e9b0995a4f1ced426\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The ignorant upstart from Hamilton, who knows nothing about the way Parliament runs, should know that when bills do not go to a select committee there is an extended hearing at the Committee stage. I say to members that I thought we were cruelly cut off after 2.5 hours on Part 1, and Part 2 is much more substantive, especially because this part imports the loss attributing qualifying companies in. As I indicated to the Minister in the chair earlier, I noticed an issue very late last night. I have been focusing on it only this morning, and there are a lot of questions, and without wanting to bring the Chair into the debate at all, there are some interesting questions on the handling of livestock in the bill. I want to know whether\u2014I see a look on the face of the Chairman, who has no idea\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33981acc42443bdb0b1e2901e341b2a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must not bring the Chair into the debate, or his speech will be terminated. This is an important part of the bill. I will not tolerate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9140deb606d4045b51a8a17dd536ff5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is an extremely important part of the bill, and one of the reasons it is important is the effect it will have on farmers and on sharemilkers as their loss attributing qualifying companies are unwound. To be fair to the Minister, it is mentioned in the bill, but we do not know how it is to be applied, because the House has not had the benefit of a select committee hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do not know\u2014and the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, may want to give me a nod or a wink if he wishes\u2014whether Federated Farmers were consulted on the effect on livestock of the unwinding of the loss attributing qualifying companies. The Minister is finding out; the officials are not sure. I would be surprised if they were, and I would be surprised if Federated Farmers had got their heads around this important taxation change for them. Normally, of course, a bill goes off to a select committee. I am looking at Damien O\u2019Connor; I will wise him up and I am sure he will want to take a couple of calls, now that we have identified the qualifying area. The Minister may like to tell us whether Federated Farmers have been apprised of the changes that will affect their members as a result of the undoing of the taxation arrangements for loss attributing qualifying companies and the new arrangements. I ask what the implications are for sharemilkers of the exit exemptions, for example. What happens when there is a date difference between the taxation year for the sharemilker and the dates that apply in this bill as far as the unwinding of the loss attributing qualifying companies is concerned? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EDates for sharemilkers are particularly important. Their years are different years, for reasons that those of us who have lived in rural areas understand. They have their changeover, and their years are, quite properly, lined up in that way. But there is no sign that that has been taken into account in the large section of amendments that are sitting in Supplementary Order Paper 187. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are a number of formulae in this part of the legislation. Under the heading \u201CDeduction\u201D in new section DB 65(2), which is to be inserted in the Income Tax Act 2007 by new clause 30BA on the Supplementary Order Paper, there is a calculation involving a starting pool where a figure of 0.02 is used. It is then multiplied by the number of whole months over 12, which obviously works out the proportion of the year. I ask the Minister where that figure of 0.02 has come from. I have been looking for the definition of the starting pool and I have been unable to find it defined within the legislation. I am happy for the Minister to point it out. I have worked my way around taxation legislation in the past, but I have not yet been able to find in this Supplementary Order Paper a definition of starting pool, and I have not been able to find it in the substantive amending legislation, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere is a figure of 0.02, which I presume is 20 percent\u2014I presume it is a 20 percent depreciation factor. But if deductions are no longer available for depreciation, then I am not sure of the relevance of that figure, or of the figure of 0.15 that is used later in the legislation, as well. I think these are relatively reasonable questions, and I am sure members on my side\u2014although having said that, I think that earlier on they have had the wool pulled over their eyes once or twice as they have been dealing with this legislation\u2014would have been able to work their way through the legislation and gain some understanding of the answers to them. But when looking at this Supplementary Order Paper, as I have done, I do not think we have got it right. The proposed new clause 41D, which is proposed to be inserted in the bill by Supplementary Order Paper 187, relates to the attribution rules calculation for amalgamated companies. For amalgamated companies involved in loss attributing qualifying companies that are moving to the see-through arrangements, we have some calculation rules for attribution. If we, as a Parliament, are to be passing these attribution rules, then it is important that we understand them and know that they are right. I am not saying they are enormously complex, but it would be good\u2014and it certainly would happen at a select committee\u2014if people were able to work their way through them, fully understand them, and make sure that we are doing the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe have to decide what we are doing as a Committee of the whole House. We are meant to be approving the detail of this bill. Until quite recently, we would have been going through it on a clause by clause basis, or even, as we did when I was first here, on a line-by-line basis, working through and making sure we were satisfied that we understood what we were passing into law. It is fair to say that often there would have been a smaller group of people looking at it\u2014people who had the technical expertise\u2014but they would have almost certainly done it on the basis that it had been to a select committee, and that has not happened here. If we look at the proposed new clause 41H, which is to be inserted in the Income Tax Act 2007 as part of the proposed new clauses 41B to 41N on the Supplementary Order Paper, it inserts new section HA 7B, \u201CGrandparenting requirement\u201D, after section HA 7 of that Act. It states: \u201CA qualifying company must have been a qualifying company at the end of the income year before the first income year that starts on or after 1 April 2011.\u201D I ask how that affects people who are sharemilkers. Which year is it, as far as sharemilkers are concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f0a586599f498699d49bf24ee5ba58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f0a586599f498699d49bf24ee5ba58\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00222c0db4fb4084443f90a9585dba9a4755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c0db4fb4084443f90a9585dba9a4755\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from some of the points made by my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard. I start by asking David Bennett, one of my colleagues across the Chamber, whether he might get up to talk to us about some of the implications of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill for sharemilkers. I understand that, being an MP from the Waikato, he has some knowledge on the matter of sharemilkers. I am sure that he will want to stand up and try to deal with some of those very important questions about these tax changes and the implications they may have for sharemilkers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI rise to talk on Part 2. As Trevor Mallard has said, this is a huge part with a whole range of provisions that traverse some quite wide territory, including matters relating to emissions units, superannuation and the treatment of various superannuation matters, and the calculation of tax credits of multi-rate portfolio investment entities and exceptions for foreign portfolio investment entity equivalents. A whole range of quite substantive matters is amended in this very large part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EMembers on this side of the Chamber are concerned that despite all the good work, despite the consideration by a select committee\u2014my colleague Stuart Nash has referred to some of this concern\u2014and despite the ability to deal with those matters collaboratively as a Committee, we have instead found that we have ended up opposing this bill because of the substantial Supplementary Order Paper 187, which has raised a whole range of very significant matters, in addition to what was already a very significant bill, without the select committee having had the ability to consider it. We consider that to be a serious abuse of process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOf course, it probably is not a surprise to see that that is happening, because time after time with this Government we have seen an abuse of process and a lack of commitment to our democratic process and to the proper use of select committees. It has fast tracked significant legislation through shortened select committee process or through the use of urgency. Here we are in urgency again, and it is an abuse of process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper was introduced at the eleventh hour, and MPs have had very little time to consider it in detail. At 70 pages, it is actually larger than the original bill, which at its first reading was 57 pages long. The provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper should have gone to a select committee. This is the first opportunity this Parliament has had to consider the provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper. The complexity of tax legislation\u2014and I am certainly no expert on tax legislation\u2014means that it benefits more than most legislation from full select committee processes. We need people to consider it and we need to get expert advice on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI turn to the provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper. A number of my colleagues have already looked at the changes to loss attributing qualifying companies. On first appearance we would probably have had very little problem with a number of areas, and were likely to want to support them. We do not want to see people abusing the system to minimise or limit their tax liabilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI will also talk specifically about the provisions relating to the broader definition of \u201Cincome\u201D for social assistance. On the face of it, it sounds like a very sensible provision to include income from family trusts, fringe benefits in certain circumstances, income from a cash portfolio investment entity that is not locked in, and income from a spouse living overseas. People are structuring their affairs to inflate their entitlements, and we have concerns, clearly, if that structuring is being used to abuse things such as Working for Families, which is designed to assist people who genuinely need it, not people who can structure their income in certain ways to get assistance that they are not in need of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI note that wage earners and salary earners generally end up paying the tax they have to pay. Their affairs are generally simple, and they end up paying the tax they are liable to pay. On this side of the Chamber we do not see it as appropriate that those who can structure sources of income to minimise their tax liabilities should be able to access entitlements that they do not need. To that extent, there are probably some very sensible provisions in this Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ETalking of wage earners and salary earners, I also note the fact that this Government has made it more difficult for people who rely primarily on wages and salaries to make ends meet. Those people are struggling at the moment. They pay their full tax liabilities, and they are struggling. A number of the changes that the Government has made in employment relations legislation mean they will struggle more. Those changes will potentially reduce their income. People who are dismissed without reason or right of redress, of course, lose income. People who cannot access assistance from their union organiser to organise themselves to collectively bargain and improve their income will also effectively suffer on wages that are lower than what they need. That has tax implications too. We all should be aspiring to the completely opposite situation, where we lift wages and have employment relations legislation that makes it easier for people to organise and improve their wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EGoing back to the provisions of Part 2, I reiterate that this is already a very complicated bill. It has already had a lot of work done on it, and has had a degree of support across the House. I think it is incredibly silly for the Government to have done what it has done in abusing the process by tabling this Supplementary Order Paper, which means that we will end up voting against the bill. The Government could have done what it was trying to do, particularly make changes to loss attributing qualifying companies and the definition of \u201Cincome\u201D for social assistance, and we may well still have supported it. The Government could have done that using a different mechanism. With that comment, I repeat that Labour will not be supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00229fec12084153470e85263812413c6c9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fec12084153470e85263812413c6c9c\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224acc9e936b0044f08412c2e9f3bbd527\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ada91da33343388a083a83e5272568\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We respect your right to rule on the point at which closure motions can be taken. However, you will recall that earlier in the debate on this part, the debate drew attention to the fact that this is the most substantial part relating to the new Supplementary Order Paper. It covers some 60 pages of the Supplementary Order Paper. There are complex interrelationships between the amended clauses and this bill, which we are having to cross-check against the base reference clauses in the main bill. I submit to you, Mr Chairperson, that this is an opportunity for you to show your excellent judgment and consider, in light of the absence of any select committee process, whether there has in fact been full, due, and proper time for the Committee to consider the implications of this part of the bill, which affects billions of dollars of tax loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e4505d51f54b358b0cf5748ac059fc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I take very seriously the issue of calls, and I apply a number of measures on each occasion. I have given a very considered opinion. I will put the question. If members deem that decision to be unsatisfactory, they should vote against the closure motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eff0742fe6d24534a3e79cc273f9c507\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 35; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc36c405297b40479d6b90fcb02147ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc36c405297b40479d6b90fcb02147ce\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I hesitate to interrupt you, but as you will be aware, you will shortly put some amendments. I wish to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the fact that my colleague Mr Burns has not yet had the opportunity of a call to discuss the amendment in his name, which you are shortly to put to the Committee. I appeal again to your sense of good judgment. Less than an hour has been spent on debate on this part. You are about to put before the Committee amendments that have not had the opportunity for discussion, even by the member who has put them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220182cfe8d68b48f5964414934ad1a7fb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The closure has been put, and the Committee has voted and expressed its will. In respect of the first question, which is the typescript amendment in the name of Brendon Burns, it is ruled out of order because it does not meet the fiscal aggregate rule as laid out in Standing Order 320(1). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in his name to insert new clauses 62B and 62C be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto omit new section ME 13(3), other than the heading, and substitute the following subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tIf, in the absence of this subsection, the total value of payments that would be included under subsection (1) in the family scheme income for the year of the person and the person\u2019s spouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner is less than or equal to $5,000, then the payments paid or provided to the person are not included in the person\u2019s family scheme income for the income year.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab585e5fbfdd4359aacecdcbeea1e024\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 35; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000345\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d29d82ffd5004de7bcd763444aecd9d2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 35; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f15d321106df4da6bb1a43f46f9787b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 35; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6a64c89c3b44a96bcafcd0ba0e8ba91\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223e5a394e28b84e008677d64fcb4ccbc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e5a394e28b84e008677d64fcb4ccbc0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E If I might begin by expressing deep regret at the undue haste with which the debate on the previous part was concluded. I think it is a matter of great disappointment that members on this side of the Chamber have not had the opportunity to address legitimate amendments that we had been planning to address on the basis of our having multiple calls\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df9a04b892345e689f436f45ec16f84\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member is trifling with your ruling. You have made it very clear, you have explained it in a way that is fair, and he should be required to get on with discussing the matter under consideration at this moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683b1421ad05475293ee31844ac13b2c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say the member would be quite right if I had taken a point of order. But as I did not, and was using my time in my speech, the member is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383dec59c4014ee18ee0d5dc9529cb37\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It is inappropriate for members at any point to refer to a Speaker\u2019s ruling, either in a point of order or in their speech. I think the matter having now been dealt with, we should proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022380983654b3d48f5b7bace8127f4f43a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman, you may detect a degree of frustration on the part of members on this side of the Chamber, who do not want to be unreasonable but find themselves in the very difficult position of having to do the job of, essentially, first and second reading speeches and a series of Committee stage speeches under extraordinary time pressure. There are major issues of principle at stake in this part in terms of the interrelationship of portfolio investment entities, look-through companies, and loss attributing qualifying companies. Those are vehicles that hold hundreds of millions of dollars of assets, which are essential to the country\u2019s savings regime and for which potential tax losses could also reach the hundreds of millions of dollars. We are having to condense a first-principles discussion on whether loss attributing qualifying companies should be replaced by look-through companies alongside detailed discussion covering some 70 pages of cross-referenced amendments. We need to go back to the primary bill to try to understand, on the hoof, how the material in the amendment changes the sense of the underlying clauses. We are trying to do both of those things at the same time, and are witnessing an extraordinary abuse, a very risky abuse, and a very sad abuse by a Minister who erstwhile had a strong reputation for process. I really do want to put on record my personal disappointment at the circumstances that the Committee finds itself in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI have previously raised at the level of first principles, and I will cover off in a couple of the points in this part, the question of the magnitude of the tax loss, which is not being stemmed through what my colleague Mr Mallard called the \u201Csee-through\u201D company regime, which is probably a pretty good description. It is actually called the look-through company regime, but \u201Csee-through\u201D is probably about right because the whole thing is pretty see-through. It is pretty flimsy\u2014a kind of \u201Ctax neglig\u00E9e\u201D if you like\u2014and the revenue consequences are likely to be negligible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe asked how much of the $2.2 billion of avoidance was going to be dealt with. The best advice that we had received earlier was that it would be only $130 million. We think that is inadequate. We think it is a step in the right direction, but by no means far enough. We would like to have had access, through the select committee process, to the option development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELet me now raise a very important point, which has not been raised yet in the debate. There is no regulatory impact statement, and I call on the Minister of Revenue, if he is listening, to confirm to the Committee whether the matters contained in Supplementary Order Paper 187 that relate to Part 3 were referred to Treasury\u2019s regulatory impact assessment unit, and if they were, as they are required to be, whether they received a regulatory impact statement, where that regulatory impact statement appears, and why it has not been tabled in the House. If there is a good reason why it was not required, let us hear it, because these are matters of millions of dollars of revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOne of the key things that we need to decide, in terms of this part, is how the change from loss attributing qualifying companies to look-through companies will affect the relative attractiveness of property investment versus other forms of savings investment. I think it is common knowledge around New Zealand that this is a hugely important issue at this time. The whole country is suffering because of the effects of the global financial crisis, and locally in the New Zealand markets, which have been crippled by that event, the severest impact was because our property bubble was over-inflated. One of the principal reasons for that was unduly favourable tax treatment, and, hey presto, part of that was the matter under consideration in this bill. What had happened was too much resource went through loss attributing qualifying companies to property, and not enough through portfolio investment entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn the new clause 78B on the Supplementary Order Paper we see notification requirements for multi-rate portfolio investment entities set out. They are a little hard to understand, because they have to be cross-referenced against clause 78. The difficulty is the whole concept of multi-rate portfolio investment entities, when lined up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00229480e45de8c34e77aacdef043d0129a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229480e45de8c34e77aacdef043d0129a5\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call to respond to the points that the member has raised. I appreciate that the issue of process is one that the Opposition feels very strongly about, but I want to repeat what I said at the commencement of each of the two previous parts of this bill. This process has been transparent, robust, and clear, and dates from the presentation of the Tax Working Group\u2019s report in January of this year. As part of the Budget process, and indeed part of the work of the Tax Working Group, all of the documentation has been released publicly. It has been out there, on websites, and it has been in the public arena right from the beginning. The Budget contained regulatory impact statements relating to the changes that are contained in the Supplementary Order Paper. We have been absolutely clear, right from the beginning, about having an open process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, following the Budget an issues paper was released, on 24 May, and we received 24 submissions on it. Draft legislation, which forms the basis of the Supplementary Order Paper, was released in October, and a further 10 submissions and comments were received on that. In addition, discussion took place with the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants, the Law Society, and all the usual suspects, about detail over that time, and I acknowledge their contribution and their input. Changes continued to be made up until the time that the Supplementary Order Paper was signed off and released publicly on Tuesday. It has been a very considered and deliberate process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issues contained within the Supplementary Order Paper are significant. The member keeps talking about $2.3 billion of tax losses emanating out of the loss attributing qualifying companies sector. That is certainly true. I remind him that it grew by 400 percent during the term of his Government. The explosion in loss attributing qualifying companies rapidly increased, under the term of the previous Government. The major driver was the avoidance opportunity created by that Government shifting the top personal tax rate to 39c. We have dealt with that, not only by reducing the rate but also by aligning it to the trust rate. That escalation will not continue in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut even if we take the total swag of loss attributing qualifying companies, estimated to be somewhere in the order of 130,000, approximately half of them\u2014in fact, the figure I have seen is 49.8 percent, to be precise\u2014relate to property. As I said at an earlier stage of the debate, of the $2.3 billion in tax losses, approximately $800 million is attributable to property-related losses. The member talks about the net not being cast widely enough, but we are doing a couple of things with these changes. Firstly, we are restructuring the broad qualifying company regime. We will be moving to a full look-through process. I have indicated earlier the changes to be made to the dividend regime in due course. Secondly, we are seeking to prevent the worst of the abuses that were occurring in the property-related area, and to address that essential conundrum, which the Tax Working Group pointed out, that some $200 billion of investment in property produced losses of $500 million per annum and a revenue loss to the Crown of $150 million per annum. We are addressing that through the changes being made in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that I have made at every stage of this debate. The reason for it having to be done in the way that it has been done, given that we have given virtually a year\u2019s notice of our intention, is that these changes take effect from 1 April next year. I think Mr Burns or Mr Mallard may have referred to this earlier, but a number of loss attributing qualifying companies and the entities that are associated with them will need to change. They need time to make that transition. The Inland Revenue Department needs time to gear up for that transition. This legislation has to be passed at this point in order to enable the goal of 1 April\u2014which I heard the Opposition say they do not disagree with\u2014to be met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI said earlier, and I stand by it, that we have been punctilious in terms of the consultation process. We have been very clear to ensure that at every stage all of the points that have been raised have been considered, right from the time of the Tax Working Group last year. The outcome has been one in which we have legislation that is credible, is workable, and will address the abuses that were being raised as part of the Tax Working Group report, which everyone knew were occurring and were seeking action upon. I think this is good legislation, and I think it will stand the test of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00228b35a0d83b384a3281c1ddd69f6d0f48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b35a0d83b384a3281c1ddd69f6d0f48\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister\u2019s comments deserve a direct reply. Let us be fair: the Minister is quite correct that the general intent of the policy was made known in the Budget. He is also quite correct that an early draft form of legislation was made available to the industry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227bf19c0dd6c4d648b969eb91f9017ee\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Publicly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c00010cb2fd4d0ab58521f91b2098b7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and publicly\u2014and that is not in dispute. What is equally not in dispute, and the Minister would not disagree with this either, is that the matters that resulted from that process were not presented to a select committee, were not subject to parliamentary scrutiny, and did not have access to the independent tax advice of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s independent adviser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI think the Minister is in grave danger here of setting a precedent that could undermine the generic tax policy process more generally, because he seems to be inferring to the Committee that it is somehow OK, it is somehow acceptable, if the Government announces a policy intent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa7c0e58ba8462e94dfb0e711905cda\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is inferring; I might have been implying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022677aec3a2e9c493195ca875f72a5aff7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you; \u201Cmight be implying\u201D\u2014and somehow consults with the industry, it gets a form of leave pass and can bypass the select committee. That, of course, is not acceptable. It is not acceptable to the public, first, because the select committee is the opportunity for the public to make submissions and be heard. This is, more frankly, something that smells rather of a kind of smoke-filled room\u2014a closed-room dialogue between a number of parties that have deeply vested interests. That is not acceptable in the New Zealand constitution. It is not acceptable in good parliamentary practice. This is a change of practice for this Minister, and it is not OK for the House. We have made that point repeatedly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI need to raise several issues, specifically about clauses in Part 3 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. Again, I say it is not easy for members of the Committee to cross-check the provisions on Supplementary Order Paper 187\u2014recently received\u2014in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne with the underlying provisions of the bill to which they cross-refer. The interface with the portfolio investment entity regime, such as in new clauses 78B, 79B, and 80B through to 82E, is a matter of some interest. There have been allegations that portfolio investment entities had been subject to similar abuse to that of loss attributing qualifying companies. Where is the analysis, I ask the Minister, that shows how consideration has been given to managing that boundary? Going forward, I ask whether similar issues might occur under look-through companies, and whether the removal of some of the arbitrage from loss attributing qualifying companies has removed the possibility of arbitrage between portfolio investment entities and look-through companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThose are the sorts of matters we would expect to see addressed in a regulatory impact statement or an options analysis. But we do not have one, because the Government that championed the Regulatory Responsibility Bill has followed its own procedures in less than 50 percent of the legislation that it has put through the House. Perhaps that is not surprising, because the Government set a 5-year record this week for the highest proportion of legislation going through under urgency, in at least the last 5 years. I have not been able to go back and check earlier than that. We have rushed legislation that violates the Government\u2019s own regulatory\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12c68aa3a06419cb114e1f766902d0c\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Good hard-working Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605aed86ac334c8d88075f152a5dd533\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCrusher\u201D has become a tax policy expert. That worries me deeply; it worries me as deeply as the process. Without good scrutiny, as my colleague Brendon Burns said before, we will pass this in haste and revise it at leisure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Minister has made the point that he has dividend amendments coming through. There will be tax bills\u2014at least two\u2014next year. What would have been wrong with putting these matters to the select committee in such a way that it could subject them to the proper process? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879719ef14f244df8110c2d180ceab7f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s he got? He\u2019s got poetry! Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf21e1c88b7461182c1250615ee562c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Police, who is also the Minister of Corrections, may not care about the tax loss, but the tax loss that is being addressed through this bill is larger than Vote Police\u2014larger than Vote Police. That might explain why she has put only 30 new cops on the beat, rather than the 1,000 she promised. So there is a big gap between that Minister\u2019s rhetoric and her reality, and there is a big gap between the Government\u2019s rhetoric about regulatory responsibility and the actual practice, in which less than half the bills it has passed this year have been through a proper process. That should shock New Zealanders\u2014it should shock New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe return requirements for multi-rate portfolio investment entities appear in clause 80C, and they are deemed to occur at a 31 May date\u201431 May of the year after the end of the tax year. We are worried about arbitrage opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00220326ad3bd84c47118dd54f3c4dd83f07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220326ad3bd84c47118dd54f3c4dd83f07\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct the vote on the closure motion on Part 1 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. The vote for Labour should have been 36 votes opposed. I seek leave to have the vote corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291485628ff3c4a97900d452118e48ae8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to amend that vote. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The record will be so amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022c57df13860f14146b53f4c4ac22f9aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c57df13860f14146b53f4c4ac22f9aa3\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct the vote on the question that Part 1 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill as amended be agreed to. The vote for Labour should have been 36 votes opposed. I seek leave to have the vote corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbaab2c655bf43fcacad045ac14c49aa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The record will be so amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002261a21dc2767c46e6b7477df151b82820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a21dc2767c46e6b7477df151b82820\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that the Minister Peter Dunne has stood up and told us a couple of times about the process the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill has been through to get to this stage. There are just a couple of things I will say with regard to the process Mr Dunne has outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe first is that this is the standard sort of practice Labour members expect any tax bill to go through, and that I think New Zealanders would expect any tax bill to go through: it is signalled, it goes out for consultation, consultation comes back in, a bill is drafted, it goes through the first reading, it goes to a select committee, and in the select committee we have a robust debate. Mr Dunne has said that the bill has gone out to all the tax consultants, and he talked about chartered accountants, the Law Society, etc. Well, those esteemed experts in this area have had about 5 or 6 months to look at this bill, to make changes, to add suggestions, to delete things, and to have quite a lot of input. If that is the case, then why should Labour MPs have only 2 days\u20146 months versus 2 days? The reason I am a little bit upset about this time period, and the reason we are so opposed to it, is that we are representing New Zealanders in a democratic Parliament in a democratic country. If the people of New Zealand are not given an opportunity to have a say about how legislation is drafted, then that breeds a level of mistrust. That is what it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen did the Budget come out? The Budget was out in May. The Tax Working Group concluded its work in January. Mr Dunne is right: these changes were signalled, they were out there. So why was the bill not drafted beforehand? This bill could have gone to a select committee in November, it could have been referred back, and it could have been passed by now, if the Minister had put a little bit of oomph into it. This is symptomatic of the Minister\u2019s handling of this portfolio. We have seen it time and time again, and it is just not good enough. We see it with regard to the supposed review of child support. That review was going to be done in the first 4 months of the Government\u2019s term. Now, 2 years later, the report has only just been released. I tell Minister Dunne that this is sloppy. He could have had something drafted. The Minister mentioned that this matter was out there in January. It was signalled in May. Labour knew about it. As I mentioned, we do not necessarily oppose all of this; we just would have liked time to consider it. We would have liked time for our independent tax expert to sit down and brief Labour members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI turn to new clause 78B on Supplementary Order Paper 187, which deals with notification requirements for multi-rate portfolio investment entities, or PIEs. They were set up post-KiwiSaver, but the Act that brought them in had provisions that were open to abuse. Portfolio investment entities are used a lot by people who are saving for their retirement. I wonder whether Grey Power was consulted about this measure. I will read out subsection (3) of section 31C that is inserted by new clause 78B: \u201CFor an investor \u2026 who invests in a PIE that calculates and pays tax using the provisional tax calculation option under section HM 44 of that Act, the PIE must notify the investor\u2014(a) by 31 May after the end of the tax year, if the PIE is not a superannuation fund or retirement savings scheme and has an income year ending before 31 May; or (b) by 30 June after the end of the tax year, if the PIE is a superannuation fund or retirement savings scheme and has an income year ending before 30 June; or (c) within 2 months after the end of the PIE\u2019s income year,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are tax implications around this, and we are struggling to get our head around them. My colleague the Hon David Cunliffe said that we are having to cross-reference the bill with Supplementary Order Paper 187\u2014which is larger than the bill\u2014to find out the actual effect of these changes. It is very difficult to do that on the hoof. It is difficult to do that with any legislation, let alone tax legislation\u2014more so with tax legislation. That is why, for example, we were very disappointed when the debate on the substantive part of the Supplementary Order Paper was closed down after only three-quarters of an hour. We did not have the ability to debate it and, in our own minds, understand the implications of it. Mr Chairman, you will be well aware, as will many members of Parliament, that after tax legislation is passed we always get a number of emails from, normally, concerned constituents who wonder whether the change has implications for them and why it was done. If legislation goes through the select committee process, we have the ability to reply to those emails and concerns in a very timely manner. That is the way in which Labour members like to conduct their constituent relations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard noted, Supplementary Order Paper 187 was tabled on Tuesday. A 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, which as mentioned is larger than seven of the nine pieces of tax legislation to go through the House during this term of Parliament, was tabled on Tuesday. Members of other parties have not had the ability to sit down as a group to discuss it, because this is the time of year when we are off attending school prize-givings and a whole raft of functions in our electorate. In fact, that is what we should be doing at the moment. We should not be sitting here under urgency, near Christmas. We should be out there dealing with our constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225cb1e3de143436fa3d839308d11236e\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have an electorate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe63022bf05c42a783c44174eb2f75e1\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Wait till 2011; Mr Tremain knows about that! The bottom line is that the difference between Labour list MPs and National list MPs is we continue to work very hard for our constituents. We work extremely hard, whereas Mr Quinn apparently, according to some publication I read, should not even be here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI go back to the tax legislation. I know what will happen about this change to portfolio investment entities. Members of my caucus will send me, the Opposition spokesperson on revenue\u2014probably tomorrow, being Saturday, or on Sunday, because we all work Saturdays and Sundays, and maybe even on Monday\u2014emails to tell me that they have had emails from constituents who are really concerned about the changes to the tax legislation around portfolio investment entities that are outlined in section 31C(3) in new clause 78B. In fact, I think the changes go through to new clause 80C. It will have been reported in the business press that there is a change to the tax law around portfolio investment entities. That is all they would have heard. If there had been a select committee hearing process, I could respond straight away to my colleagues and explain the reason for the new clause. I could say that it was discussed at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, it had gone through the whole robust process, and we had accepted it in order to improve the integrity of the tax system, or to make it easier and more transparent for taxpayers, or whatever. If an amendment has gone through the select committee process, there is always a good reason for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs has been commented on earlier, Labour supported the original bill through the select committee. It was a fantastic atmosphere, because we all agreed that we wanted to do the right thing. We asked a whole lot of questions. We worked well. There was not one provision in Part 2 that I can remember that we argued against or took a political line on. We all agreed with it. I put to the Minister that he had time, his officials had time, to draft legislation after this issue was signalled, to get it out to the appropriate consultants and the appropriate experts, to get it drafted in another bill\u2014not a Supplementary Order Paper\u2014and to get it before the select committee, instead of rushing it through under urgency on a Supplementary Order Paper. All we ask is that tax legislation is not rushed through in this manner, because it gives us no confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENot only does it give us no confidence but it gives the people of New Zealand no confidence. They will read that tax legislation has been rushed through the House. They will read that a 71-page Supplementary Order Paper that contains a whole lot of amendments to a 57-page bill has been rushed through the House. Those who engage in these matters\u2014the sorts of people who would have submitted to the select committee\u2014will ask why it was rushed through under urgency and why they did not have the ability to comment on it. My colleague Trevor Mallard alluded to the fact that Federated Farmers had not been asked about it. As I asked earlier, was Grey Power consulted over it? I suspect that it was not. A lot of people who would have presented to the select committee were not consulted about the portfolio investment entities changes or any of the changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022899073e3700f4af7bc45c732b469d73b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022899073e3700f4af7bc45c732b469d73b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will ignore most of Mr Nash\u2019s comments, because they do not deserve a response. I come to Mr Cunliffe\u2019s points, which were more substantial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52a2d4e1470426c82f97b1a7aaa1d3e\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Play the ball, not the man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53bb6cd9d4741fc9735851fc17422b7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes an interjection. He should try to demonstrate some credibility before he starts to comment on process, which is something he understands nothing about. His colleague Mr Cunliffe, on the other hand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234139ba963864e87a938f16a577695a9\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: When you start playing the ball and not the person, then you will get credibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a06bba95ac244eb48fb691310dfaa7d7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Nash is hurt! Mr Nash stands here and trumpets his knowledge, which actually fills a thimble, and then becomes concerned when he is drawn to account. Mr Cunliffe, I think, made a worthy effort, which I will seek to respond to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc6782fe2754f27b53e6fab66bb6a00\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: We could hold you to account, because you were a Labour MP who sold out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226daedc515f004838b8d375d898ea6011\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, dear! Now we get into personal prejudice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abcb0f962b9f48468cdbfebc70e3fd84\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Stuart Nash has regularly referred to you, Mr Chairperson, in the last 30 seconds. I think that is against the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c338f8a3b0d244028cf1b100638e88fb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I will deal with the matter of \u201Cyou\u201D, hopefully finally. The word \u201Cyou\u201D in itself is not proscribed in the House. When people say \u201Cyou\u201D it does not necessarily always apply to the Chair. Mr Nash was interjecting towards Mr Dunne, the Minister in the chair, and was making reference to him. So I took the \u201Cyou\u201D in that context to refer to Mr Dunne. However, although Mr Nash has not shifted his seat for the purposes of interjecting, he is interjecting continuously from that position. I want to get on with the debate, so can we just taihoa, draw a breath, and move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa2319b3bd0410fa5ab76db3f958105\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to do that. I will respond to two points that were made by Mr Cunliffe. The first one related to the issue of regulatory impact statements. I made a comment earlier in respect of regulatory impact statements. I have had some more inquiry made about process and I can inform him as follows: as I said in my earlier comments, the provisions relating to loss attributing qualifying companies were part of the post-Budget regulatory impact material. When Supplementary Order Paper 187, which is the subject of the debate today, was released on Tuesday, so too were regulatory impact statements regarding the social assistance provisions, the changes to non-resident seasonal workers, and the M\u0101ori authority changes. That material is all out in the public arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb1001265d241eeb8dd54eae1e384f9\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I thank the Minister very much for his so far partial explanation, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc5e1edeea140fc8e1a8a897b21c642\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is going to take a point of order, the member should make a point of order. The member does not get up and start issuing thankyous and all sorts of other things. The Standing Orders are quite to the point: they talk about points of order being terse. Thankyous and salutations to anyone are irrelevant. If the member wants to make a point of order, the member stands, asks for a point of order, and delivers the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5837d041c994651bdb60006fa370d1a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is this. If a regulatory impact statement was issued, as the Minister now contends, I take it that you, as the Chairperson, would be responsible for ensuring that it was attached to the draft bill and the Supplementary Order Paper. It does not so appear. Can the Chair explain why the regulatory impact statement is not available to members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227240e81dc1064fd3a067d2514f6a70e7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that that is not a point of order. It is not a point of process. The member is seeking information. If the member wishes to seek information then he does so by way of debate. The member can stand, take a call, and make the point by way of a call. The member does not make that point by way of a point of order. It has nothing to do with the order of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc3857b91d6044a8b3f2226dceece34d\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I thought it proper to address a matter of Committee order and procedure to you as the Chair and not to the Minister responsible, because it is you who presides over the Committee. The Minister is saying that he has issued a regulatory impact statement. It has not been tabled in the House. I take it that as the Chair you are responsible for the Parliamentary Service and the Office of the Clerk. I take it that it would have been the responsibility of the Office of the Clerk to ensure that the regulatory impact statement appeared before the House, which it has not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245378633712047fd8fd9c8c40ba8220b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I make the point again that the member is not able to distinguish between a matter of the order of the proceedings of the Committee and a matter that is a material fact on what a member has or has not done. If the member has a question about that, it is for him to address to the Minister, because the Minister is responsible for those matters, and as the Chair of the Committee, I am not. I am responsible for the organisation of the debate, the structure of the debate, and making sure that the Standing Orders are complied with. Those are matters for the Chair. I have now answered that question twice for the member. I hope we have it clear at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3625b360f9e4e3ea232de9cf6a11039\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I will respond to the point that Mr Cunliffe has made. The regulatory impact statements to which I referred have been issued publicly. They are available via the Inland Revenue Department policy website; they are freely available in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that he raised regarding the portfolio investment entity regime. He and I recall from a previous existence that a lot of the issues that led to the introduction of the portfolio investment entity regime were not, as Mr Nash contended, to do with KiwiSaver; they were a consequence of changes relating to offshore investments that, I think, he initiated when he was holding the revenue portfolio. A number of the changes occurred around that regime in 2007, from memory. He will recall that we had subsequently a lot of discussion about what became known as cash portfolio investment entities, land portfolio investment entities, or various iterations of the portfolio investment entity regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issue has been one of how this new vehicle is adapted for the future, if you like. In many senses, the jury is still out on that issue, because the Savings Working Group, which is due to report early next year, will also be focusing its attention on it in terms of the broader canvas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn terms of the specific provisions in this part of the bill, they are consequential on the changes being made to the definition of \u201Cincome\u201D for social assistance purposes. Those provisions do not relate to individual contributors; they relate to the funds themselves. So in answer to the question that he was raising about the impact on contributors, I say that it is lessened. The impact is on the funds. The funds have been fully consulted throughout the development of these proposals and are broadly supportive of them. I think that deals with the question that he was raising. This is a very specific and narrow area; it is not a major area of policy. It is an administrative change consequential upon some other changes that are being made, which one of his colleagues indicated his party was broadly supportive of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI thought that I should put that on the record at this point. I have no intention of interfering with or delaying the debate, but I put those facts on the record because they may be of assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002245e9bca01b2c4437825504c6253d3914\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245e9bca01b2c4437825504c6253d3914\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, for that explanation, which is particularly helpful in relation to the distinction between individual contributors and the portfolio investment entities at fund level. The clarification is appreciated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI think Newton\u2019s law of holes applies to the Minister at the moment: when in one, stop digging. The Minister previously justified the absence of a select committee process on the basis that the draft bill was consulted on with the industry. Were that to set a precedent, the entire generic tax policy process would be down the chute, as they say. For all we know, the Minister is also saying that because a partial regulatory impact analysis may have been undertaken by the department on some aspect of this, and it might be available on the website, then there is no need to table it for the House or attach it to the bill. That is the inference, because the Minister was saying that due process had been followed\u2014unless he is now admitting that due process has not been followed, in which case I would be happy to concur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI go back to Part 3. I raise another issue of substance that I would be grateful for the Minister\u2019s advice on, and a response from his officials on, since we have not had the opportunity to ask this question in select committee. It relates to the notices of proposed adjustment in new clauses 82B, 82C, and 82D, and the challenge provisions in new clause 82E, set out in Supplementary Order Paper 187. What is somewhat confusing is the scope of the adjustment process in respect of several other exception and modification processes that cross-refer back to Part 2. My personal favourite by nomenclature is new subclause (2BAD), which is appropriately named, in relation to company definitions. Beyond that there are the grandparenting provisions and the provisions in relation to adjustments for family scheme income from amounts derived by dependent children in new section MB11, and family scheme income from non-residents\u2019 foreign sourced income in new section MB12. Officials may be able to assist us through the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe substantive concern, not a drafting concern, is that we wish to be clear\u2014and the Minister may be able to provide subsequent assurance to the Committee\u2014that the adjustment process brought in in Part 3 through clauses 82B to 82E is not able to be used to double arbitrage, if you like, or make fine-tuning adjustments to what otherwise could be quite generous provisions around family scheme income or foreign-sourced income. The family scheme income is particularly important because it would be possible, at least in theory, to allocate through the ownership of look-through companies income from the company to pertain to the taxable income of individuals who might be at a lower tax rate than the principal owner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAn example is if a principal owner owned shares in a company alongside the owner\u2019s children, who were on a lower tax rate, or a spouse\u2014and I wonder whether this is the Minister having another go at income splitting by another name. He was not able to get National to agree to income splitting. I would be really grateful for his guidance\u2014he may not wish to give his guidance, in light of that assertion\u2014on whether any provisions are inbuilt in the bill that prevent the sort of arbitrage where the ownership of the look-through company could be flexed to reflect the tax rates of the underlying shareholders. We would not want the look-through company regime to operate like an income-splitting system. It would have been better, although we opposed it, for the income-splitting bill the Minister proposed to be agreed transparently, than to have it done\u2014if indeed that is the case, and it may not be\u2014by the back door in relation to this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, it is incumbent on me in respect of new section MB12 to say that the whole interface between the domestic savings regime and the international tax regime is devilishly complicated. I confess to finding myself in the uncomfortable position, when I held the Minister\u2019s current role, of being in an ongoing reliance position in relation to technical advice on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002235c2013a075e4c42bf529554253bc151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235c2013a075e4c42bf529554253bc151\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224666bba99ea14055aafdd649edaef6ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224666bba99ea14055aafdd649edaef6ac\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a moment in this Part 3 debate to ask a question about the regulatory impact statement and clarify exactly what the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, was referring to. My understanding is that he would have been referring in his comments to the regulatory impact statement as it relates to the bill as introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9c88b1ce9f4dee9a8b3b7a4e795956\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the Committee that before we broke for the lunch break we were discussing Part 3 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I asked the Minister of Revenue to clarify comments that he made in his introductory remarks about the regulatory impact statement\u2014in his spirit of openness, I think he called it\u2014and whether, in fact, his reference to the regulatory impact statement refers to the bill as introduced to this House in August, a bill of some 57 pages, or whether his reference to the regulatory impact statement refers to the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper that was released by the Minister in the last 48 hours, a document that is some 13 pages longer than the bill itself. If we are not to have a select committee process to inquire into the details of the Supplementary Order Paper, if urgency is to be applied in this House a fortnight before Christmas as we try to see this bill and the Supplementary Order Paper through, and if there will not be any opportunity for others to have input into the bill through the select committee process, then I would have thought that a regulatory impact statement on the Supplementary Order Paper to try to get some sense of dispassionate analysis on the raft of changes it introduces would make absolute sense, because that Supplementary Order Paper is detailed and complex and New Zealanders have a right to know what is being passed. This Committee cannot give the scrutiny to it that a complex piece of tax legislation truly demands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI also note that the last time this Minister featured in the House in respect of tax issues of any note was when he supplied the wrong speech notes to another Minister, Jonathan Coleman. The speech notes were for a different bill to that which the Minister was speaking on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879fda2de4df4576b2137179d1eab00a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CColeman-itis\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d278622a1f534ca093b03ce1aec5f874\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the Minister himself quite rightly claimed culpability for that error, because it was his office that supplied the notes. I suggest to the Committee that he has gone from bad to worse, because here we have a situation where we do not have just the wrong speech notes for a bill that has already passed but the Minister giving speech after speech to the House defending a Supplementary Order Paper that is bigger than the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022382248a7e95b47cc9b5791acd8081ed4\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is this Supplementary Order Paper a plot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e0d4bd052e4cc68c04cc27c3a04762\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a comment that others might make. I am not drawn to conspiracy theories. In my past life as a journalist, sometimes people came to me with things that suggested there was a conspiracy, and I usually went for the other option, which is the stuff-up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b640ae38186c4711abcd81e716876ea2\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: The con job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e370a2758e47adab9321faeae6d788\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: No, normally it is a stuff-up rather than a conspiracy. But this one has different hallmarks, because, as we have noted, there was a process in which the Labour Party supported the bill\u2019s introduction, worked through the issues in the Finance and Expenditure Committee to ensure that the legislation was valid, and made a number of changes to the legislation. Our colleague Trevor Mallard highlighted one of the particular concerns earlier, and I think it is repeated in another part of the bill, about the issue of Inland Revenue Department access to jointly held bank accounts for the tax debts of a particular person. It was a very astute observation from my learned colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb36455600164f2a9776819aa6e53a58\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not learned. I\u2019m not a lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ca9bad28554f65ae90d99dab7c6f5b\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: He is not learned? No. The point is that the Finance and Expenditure Committee scrutinised the bill to ensure that there were not things within it that would not be good law for New Zealanders. But we have had no opportunity whatsoever for that scrutiny on the Supplementary Order Paper, and it really is a recipe for disaster, because, inevitably, there will be things that come through from the bill that do not help New Zealanders, and we are very likely, as a Parliament, to have to revisit it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAgain, I note that of the nine tax bills introduced to Parliament by this Minister, who is generally highly regarded as a good, competent Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8becb0650ba48eabc356285d51629a8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the member that we are on Part 3 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, and during the course of his speech Part 3 was not mentioned. We are debating Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83af53a0e084ad4bfbedad56f31be5a\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest, Mr Chair, that, in fact, I did introduce Part 3 of the bill, but I will take your steer on that point. The Chairperson is quite right; this debate is on Part 3 of the bill, and it relates to clauses 77 to 86. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EOne of the parts of the bill that I would like the Minister to give some clarification on is clause 82, which is the clause titled \u201CDisclosure of information for verification of government screen production payment entitlement\u201D. I want to know whether this clause will relate to the Hobbit deal. It was a deal done in a flash, under urgency in effect, by the Prime Minister at Premier House, with the Hollywood moguls, to ensure The Hobbit was filmed here in New Zealand. In fact, The Hobbit was always coming to New Zealand. But I would like to know whether the clause will have any relationship to the funding that will be provided by the Government in that secret deal, which was done under urgency. It had some of the hallmarks of this legislation that we are going through. Clause 82, as provided for in the bill, is around replacing the phrase \u201Clarge budget screen production grant\u201D with \u201Cgovernment screen production payment\u201D. I would like to know whether the Hobbit productions will be beneficiaries of this change and whether we should read anything into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe good thing about it is that this particular clause has come through in the bill as it was introduced, so the Finance and Expenditure Committee has had some opportunity for consideration and could take account of the wide range of issues that one must consider in the select committee process. That is not true of the Supplementary Order Paper, which, of course, has a huge number of changes incorporated in it. The fact that we are here under urgency with the Government\u2019s wish and intent to see the bill passed today gives no opportunity for us as members of the House to consider the changes. So I would like the Minister to take a call and give some clarity as to whether clause 82 will indeed allow for the provision of financial support to The Hobbit. Is that the particular clause that will allow the taxpayer to fund to the tune of, I think, tens of millions of dollars the Hobbit series\u2014the two films? Was that clause drafted ahead of the Government\u2019s intention to provide support at that level to that particular bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe other thing I will say is around the issue of the complexity of the legislation. As a new member of this House and of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I must say that when we see tax legislation come through it is eye-watering in detail, and it is obviously a task indeed for members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to stay on top of the legislation in order to ensure it gets the sort of scrutiny that Parliament and the New Zealand taxpayers would demand, because they understand the importance of tax legislation. Everybody in New Zealand is affected by tax legislation, whether or not they are an earner, because if someone is not earning, they are supported by someone who is earning, and is therefore subject to the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s regime. I would really like to say that we have a situation where, given the opportunities that we as a select committee have to scrutinise tax legislation, still stuff goes through. I referred to nine different tax bills in just 2 years in this Parliament, which whistled through at a fair rate of knots. That involves hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages of complex detail in total, which is entrusted to the select committee members to give due regard to\u2014to listen to submissions, to make sure that the legislation is doing what the Government intends it to do, and to look for the fish-hooks in it. I think we do a pretty good job in a bipartisan manner across that select committee, and that relates as much to Part 3 of the bill as to any other part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EBut, of course, it does not apply in respect of the Supplementary Order Paper tabled by the Minister just 48 hours ago. It is a 70-page document, which makes it extraordinarily hard for anybody to follow what is being introduced. I challenge the members opposite to take a call, and to use the value of the call process to give some real substance to their contributions to this debate, in order to let Parliament and the people of New Zealand know that members are scrutinising legislation carefully and making sure that this bill will deliver what the Minister originally intended before he introduced the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca5effc5fc8848848d483f449f5cc2f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca5effc5fc8848848d483f449f5cc2f2\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022d664e67bfef74ce4bdf7513eb80d4e88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d664e67bfef74ce4bdf7513eb80d4e88\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E Parliament is the shop window of democracy, and since this morning the Opposition has been parading its distress at the process by which we are passing taxation legislation. If anyone is listening to this debate, they may well be confused as to why we are resistant to the process. The answer lies in the complexity of the legislation. No legislation\u2014except in exceptional circumstances\u2014should bypass a select committee, but taxation legislation in particular is astonishingly difficult. It is famously difficult. Parliamentarians are ordinary people. There are no tax experts amongst us, so we seek to give tax legislation the scrutiny that is needed with the assistance of experts. That is how taxation law is made, and how it has always been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EFor those folk who are listening, I will give some indication of the complexity. We are looking at Part 3 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. There is a large Supplementary Order Paper that is as large as the bill itself\u2014in fact, slightly larger. It has been put into the mix without going through a select committee, so the bulk of the legislation has not been subject to a select committee. I will quote from the bulk\u2014the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014which contains bits of amendments. Almost randomly, I will quote from new clause 80B in the Supplementary Order Paper, in reference to new section 42B in the principal legislation. This is the chapeau: \u201CReturns by look-through companies and owners of interests\u201D. Let us read the English that follows: \u201CThis section applies to persons who have effective look-through interests for a look-through company, and to their look-through company.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ENow let us see what an owner of a look-through company looks like. I will briefly go back to Part 2; I am sure the Chairman will allow me to do so. Here is what an owner of a look-through company is: \u201CA person who has an effective look-through interest for a look-through company has a deduction to the extent to which a deduction results from the application of subpart HB (Look-through companies) to them and the look-through company.\u201D I will read that again. Here is what the owner of a look-through company is: \u201CA person who has an effective look-through interest for a look-through company has a deduction to the extent to which a deduction results from the application of subpart HB (Look-through companies) to them and the look-through company.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5ffa766e024847add64247d01d0055\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is more a mirror than a look-through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa3b378324f4b35969e181f7693d3de\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: My non - learned accountant colleague Trevor Mallard suggests that it is more a mirror than a look-through. I think that is a prescient remark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWe must take that prescient remark and return to Part 3, where new clause 80B inserts new section 42B(1). I will read to the Committee another bit of English; we have read it out before, but we will have it again. It states: \u201CThis section applies to persons who have effective look-through interests for a look-through company, and to their look-through company.\u201D We can see\u2014I am not sure what we can see. That is really the point. I could go to any other part of this legislation and take it out of context. That is what I am doing; I know it is unfair, but that is what we are invited to do. We are presented with the amendments, not with the parent legislation or the amendments in the original amendment bill. That is the whole point. Supplementary Order Papers are out of context. That is how they are designed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note of a Supplementary Order Paper is non-explanatory. It is a codified English of what is going on clause by clause. I will give the Committee a random example of the explanatory note, but only briefly because it is not part of the bill: \u201CNew clause 42BAB amends section HG 12 of the Income Tax Act 2007, consequential to the introduction of look-through companies.\u201D Members get the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002272291d060f954bf1827ddaa81ff7b1c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272291d060f954bf1827ddaa81ff7b1c5\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There are a couple more clauses in the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill that I would like to talk about. Clause 84 is more of an explanatory clause dealing with shortfall penalties. If the Committee will allow me, I will give a brief summary of the proposed amendment. I refer to section 141JAA of the Tax Administration Act 1994. That provision is probably more easily referred to as \u201Cthe TAA\u201D, because if I have to say Tax Administration Act 1994 a number of times, I will use up my 10 minutes without actually saying anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e4e290b9ee4790b4d1b42c515c7841\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: TAA\u2014isn\u2019t that an airline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254eb82c5dfeb42aba65f70bf4c43d1d0\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. What happened to that one? As I was saying, section 141JAA of the Tax Administration Act caps some of the shortfall penalties being clarified. It does not apply if the taxpayer makes a disclosure at the time the tax position is taken. This is under section 141H of the Tax Administration Act 1994. This is a bit of background to clause 84. If the cap applied to the disclosures made at the time of filing, taxpayers can actually take positions\u2014or they could take positions, before this bill\u2014that could not meet the standard of being about as likely as not to be correct, knowing the maximum penalty they would face is $50,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EObviously, this amendment will apply after the bill comes into force, but I will give a little bit of background on clause 84. Shortfall penalties can be reduced for a number of reasons. Under section 141 of the Tax Administration Act, the shortfall penalty is reduced by between 40 percent and 100 percent if the mistake is voluntarily disclosed before the beginning of an audit. So the tax department allows the taxpayer a little bit of leeway. It recognises that people do make mistakes. This bill is a classic one. This Supplementary Order Paper is a classic one. But taxpayers do make mistakes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287693fde5e4b40e3b0e5e9b99532cd61\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What kinds of mistakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c443650ccca647bdbf63dbd136443fa0\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, occasionally, they put in an incorrect tax return. But if they voluntarily say to the Inland Revenue Department that they have made a mistake and have put in the wrong tax return, then the Inland Revenue Department, if it is in a benevolent mood, can actually reduce the shortfall penalty by 100 percent. But if it is not feeling that benevolent and it was honest, it could reduce the shortfall penalty by only 40 percent if it wanted to. But the bottom line is that if the mistake was voluntarily disclosed, then the Inland Revenue Department did have the ability to make a reduction there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287977733c77243b9999bde6bea2c8331\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: But now it is capped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f40fc9950e4ccb8fcb4ed1371cc71d\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Well, under section 141H of the Tax Administration Act a shortfall penalty for an unacceptable tax position or an abusive tax position is reduced by 75 percent if the taxpayer makes an adequate disclosure of their tax position at the time they take the tax position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are two types of mistakes that are made. Well, there are probably more than that, but there are people who deliberately try to rort the tax system. I do not think there is any member on any side of the Chamber who thinks that is a good idea. In fact, we fight very hard to stamp down hard on the people who rort the tax system. There is no doubt about that. [Interruption] Accountant? I have no comment to make on that, I say to Mr Cunliffe. But with regard to accountants, I say that I have a very good accountant. He is a very good guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2c7799d23241cbba52eafbe77de83f\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the member need an accountant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e0d18845e34952b65cc49fa3ecc246\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is another story, as well. But having said that, there is another type of person who tries to rort the system. When I say \u201Crort the system\u201D, I mean that they hand in incorrect tax returns. As I said, they are the bad ones. But others may have just made a mistake. That can happen. A bill might fall on the floor and be found under a desk, and, as a consequence, a mistake is made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis bill caps the penalty at $50,000. In the past, the Inland Revenue Department could be benevolent about it. Under section 141JAA (1) of the Tax Administration Act, the shortfall penalty for not taking reasonable care\u2014and I suppose we use the reasonable care test\u2014or for taking an unacceptable tax position can be limited to $50,000 if the taxpayer voluntarily discloses their tax position or the commissioner determines the shortfall \u201Cno later than the date that is the later of\u2014(a) the date that is 3 months after the due date of the return to which the shortfall relates; and (b) the date that follows the due date of the return to which the shortfall relates by the lesser of\u2014(i) 1 return period; and (ii) 6 months. It is not clear that the limit in section 141JAA of the Tax Administration Act 1994 applies only to voluntary disclosures under section 141G. It is also not clear whether it applies to disclosures made under section 141H.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d54226e07d2742f0bc0a900aad58a9ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d54226e07d2742f0bc0a900aad58a9ed\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8a36723f0fa47e88da7cc6b4808a1e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8a36723f0fa47e88da7cc6b4808a1e4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I will start off with a relatively unusual contribution, one that might sometimes be ruled out of order at a Committee stage. I want to refer to a clause that is not here. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, what happened to new clause 78A. If we look carefully at the top of page 58, running over from page 57, we see clause 78. Then if we look at the Supplementary Order Paper, we see clause 77 as amended at the bottom of page 61. But at the top of page 62 of the Supplementary Order Paper we have new clause 78B. I am wondering what happened to clause 78A. I want some sort of assurance that there is not a printing mistake, and that we have not jumped over from one area to another area by accident. I would appreciate that assurance, even if it is only a nod and a wink from the Minister. I know the way these things are fixed up. When there is a drafting or a numeration mistake in a bill, then the Clerk\u2019s Office\u2014working, no doubt, with the Inland Revenue Department\u2014will be able to sort it out later on, if in fact it was just a mistake and there was never meant to be a clause 78A. If there is meant to be a 78A, then I want an assurance from the Minister that it is not a vital clause. It is not a vital clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99f72d73bc3432d9a7dde8afb595755\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a235f17f76c1432faf801e556f0255c8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is the Committee stage. You are always allowed to go back and forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e57415f3b44320b292144251a22e90\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: It is a drafting style issue. Nothing was deleted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a79412699d43859f310f8be0e9005b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: So it is a drafting style issue. So they do not have As any more, they have Bs\u2014I apologise, it might be the case. So we go now from nothing, to B, and then to C, rather than from nothing, to A. Well, I say that if one were working one\u2019s way down the street trying to find a flat, and \u201CA\u201D was always missing, I would submit that that is a drafting lack of style. My colleague the Hon Pete Hodgson has pointed out something that I would have got to on my second, third, or fourth call on this particular area. In fact, we have two areas to note in clause 79B. I tell the member\u2014and I will get back to it\u2014that what clause 79B in the Supplementary Order Paper does is amend clause 79B in the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5bdd2fde9e74bc582ed2fa070fbaecd\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e1c1a1adab146e6a9db9e14aeb85ac0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member might not think so, but that was my interpretation. But I will rely on my colleagues, who have looked at this bill more carefully than I have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe second question I ask the Minister is why there are different arrangements for superannuation funds and retirement savings schemes, vis-\u00E1-vis portfolio investment entities that are such, versus portfolio investment entities that are not. I cannot think of a good reason for having a different reporting system for the notification of investors. Some people invest through superannuation schemes\u2014some of the portfolio investment entities are superannuation funds or retirement savings schemes, and some of them are not. There appears to be special treatment being given\u2014delayed reporting treatment\u2014to the portfolio investment entities that are in fact themselves superannuation funds or retirement savings schemes. I ask the Minister to indicate why there is a delay in those extra advantages in place for that particular type of scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will now talk about issuer status, and ask what the system is that the Inland Revenue Department uses when it is making decisions after someone has notified under new section 32M(2B) in clause 79(1)\u2014I have already pleaded guilty to having trouble with the modern style that has been used within this bill\u2014where it says \u201Cto become an approved issuer, the person must notify the Commissioner that they wish to have approved issuer status.\u201D The legislation pretty well sets out the sorts of people who have that approved issuer status, but the question I have is whether that will flow pretty much automatically and whether they will get the approved issuer status.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis does not appear\u2014again I am subject to correction from my colleagues; I am talking about the bill as it was reported back from the select committee\u2014to replace any other legislation. So my question asks whether this is necessary or whether people in the past had the ability to have issuer status without there being the necessity for legislation, and whether there was discretion on the part of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue or whether it was just assumed. I suppose the question about whether we are adding unnecessary detail in the legislation could go to Sir Roger Douglas and others. I do not think we have ever indicated before that one had to write a letter in order to make an application. I wonder whether that complicates it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe next question concerns the type of notification. I am looking at new subsection (2B) of section 32M in clause 79. Is there a requirement for the notification to be in writing? Does a facsimile count? Is there a form on the Inland Revenue Department website? Can it be done by email? Is there a Facebook way of notifying the commissioner that one wants to have approved issuer status? I have been unable\u2014again, I am subject to correction by the Minister\u2014to find notification in this part of the legislation. I accept that the Minister will probably berate me by saying that this is not the new bit of the legislation but the bit that has been to the select committee. If I had been on the committee I would have spent some time trying to work out, at that stage, what notification is, but seeing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226665d4600b8f4c2881b216b91af88db6\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll take you on for the next one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e922b9e5d29f4d9489beb1618f3f20f6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I think the Opposition spokesperson on finance wants to pass his role on, but I do not think that that is totally his decision. I go back to the bill, and I want to check that new clauses 80B and 80C are still within this part of the legislation. I would not, at this late stage, want to miss them out. I see that, yes, they are still within Part 3. In fact, they must be part of it, because my colleague the Hon Pete Hodgson was referring to them before. I think he was making the point that I would have made. I use the word \u201Cmirror\u201D, because although there is the expression \u201Clook-through\u201D, in fact it appears that some sort of mirror arrangement is being set up. I know we should not always expect tax legislation to be in pure English, because my former colleagues who are accountants, and, more especially, those who are lawyers, would not make any money if it were in pure English. But generally it should be, and this sort of mirror arrangement is quite hard for a layperson to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00227ef25f8fc4fc4924aa1ee5c6dd8a175e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ef25f8fc4fc4924aa1ee5c6dd8a175e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, it is appropriate in relation to the portfolio investment entity issues in Part 3 to note the serious concern on the matter that was expressed by the Government\u2019s senior whip, Mr Tremain, on 18 May 2007. He called for a substantial review of the way that portfolio investment entities were treated. I invite the member to take a substantive call to tell the Committee whether he is satisfied that this legislation addresses the issues he raised. Of course, because he is the Government whip, I would assume that the Minister has consulted with him, but I think it is incumbent upon him to explain to the Committee whether he is now happy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOne of the sad things about this bill is that there were elements of the bill as introduced that members on this side of the House were comfortable with. One of my colleagues, Mr Burns, mentioned the issue of the so-called Hobbit clause, clause 82, titled \u201CDisclosure of information for verification of government screen production payment entitlement\u201D. How useful would that have been if it had been passed before the skulduggery that went on in the politicisation of the process around The Hobbit. This would have been a very useful clause. So, too, as Mr Nash said, is clause 84, regarding shortfall penalties, although we ask how the cap will be applied. So is subsection (12), inserted by clause 86, about the issue of joint accounts, which we raised earlier in the debate about this part, and about the potential for income-splitting arbitrage by using look-through companies. On all of these issues, and on the matters raised in the amendments to insert new clauses 82B to 82E\u2014about the relationship between the proposed adjustments in taxpayer assessment in relation to the children\u2019s provisions in MB 11, the offshore taxpayers, the grandparenting provisions, and, in HB 7, the depreciation provisions\u2014the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, has yet to take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe would like to propose a way forward on this, despite the apparently shocking abuse of process that has gone on in bringing to the Committee this complex set of amendments, this mammoth Supplementary Order Paper that dwarfs the original bill. It is like having a train that dwarfs the locomotive. That is what this is like. The Minister should have in front of him an indexed briefing folder from his officials that explains all these matters. If he is not prepared to take a call and respond in a reasonable and decent way to the substantive questions that have been raised by the Opposition, I call upon him to table that briefing folder so that the Opposition might be able to satisfy itself in due diligence whether these matters have been appropriately handled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI invite Chris Tremain to satisfy himself whether he thinks his deep concerns about his own Government\u2019s handling of portfolio investment entities have been satisfied. I suspect that, firstly, they have not, and, secondly, who would know? We have had this just dropped on us, instead of it going through the normal select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Minister has been squirming on this. I do not think he is an evil bloke; he is a pretty decent bloke, but this is not his characteristic style. Someone said he is angling for London. Personally, I think it is Ottawa. I think he is an Ottawa-type guy. He has obviously had Ottawa in his head or on his head. He is clearly angling for something, because this is not his normal style. I think that because he has been squirming, he has been at risk of digging himself in a bit deeper here. He has told the Committee that this can be excused because the intent was in the Budget, because there is an internal assessment of regulatory impact on the website, and because there has been consultation between officials and the department. If all of those things were so great, why would any tax bill go near a select committee? Why would it subject itself to having to be looked over by members of other parties if there were simply a trilateral process between Ministers, officials, and members of the business community? Or is that perhaps a sign of things to come? Is that what the new corporatist State under National looks like? There is a triangular relationship, an iron triangle, between Bowen House, the Wellington Club, and the Beehive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022686309a19d074c2a9ae56a38db56a4e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022686309a19d074c2a9ae56a38db56a4e5\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225597b84050be438899682c2274581237\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f23b4fbad09e442e88df3619d341eaf4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member\u2019s colleague was going for the call. Is he allowed to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00222cf01a482132418ebcfbcf9f55e4d917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cf01a482132418ebcfbcf9f55e4d917\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I decide who gets the call. There is a closure motion, which I have accepted. The question is that the question be now put. Those of that\u2014[Interruption] The question is that the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d643b44ad5d462caa18338755ad7797\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am not trifling with your ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9d985147304a17922b5723de061652\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are. I am putting the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f344563ad93448184184f98c83e2717\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I have not yet begun to trifle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228667def91da04b3287f7f584994388fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. Sit down. I have accepted the closure motion, and I am putting it. The question is that the question be now put. Those of that opinion will say Aye\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa8989aa86a45bba5792dc1dc0701fc\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is a new point of order, and the new point of order is that I was not able to make the last substantive point of order, and the last substantive point of order was one of genuine confusion. Your ruling was not yet made at the point at which my colleague Mr Mallard interrupted you, then when you rose to your feet you said that you had ruled\u2014in the past tense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c467f32d90574d4a8482be10ab1891a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c467f32d90574d4a8482be10ab1891a5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. I will deal with it. He asked whether a colleague on the Government side was seeking the call. That is what he asked. I said that I am the sole judge of who gets the call. I gave the call to the senior Government whip, he moved a closure motion, and that is what I am putting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe7ef6ffe8b4d8d8047aef4b47cdf9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe7ef6ffe8b4d8d8047aef4b47cdf9d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I sincerely apologise for this, but it might save our getting the Speaker back in. It is my understanding that when a member who has already had a call and someone who has not had a call go for the call, then a closure motion cannot be moved by the member who has already had a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220f99e071d4154493bde53b2534a509a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f99e071d4154493bde53b2534a509a0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It is not in the Standing Orders. The Chair of the Committee is the sole judge of who gets the call. I gave the call to the senior Government whip and that is the end of the matter. That is where we are at. We have a vote in progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8bda03b2e84e7088fab07d57709a7b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0ac08635834a1c917e84fc4e9535a2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is trifling with me. I am halfway through a vote. We have actually started the vote. I will ask the Clerk to please start the party vote again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ecbea8532da042229b08c38f468e0a77\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220f91b3dcc85b488d81733f48b1b437d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f91b3dcc85b488d81733f48b1b437d9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Chairperson report progress to obtain the Speaker\u2019s ruling on the giving of a call by the Chairperson. I want to ask the Speaker to return in order to have a considered ruling on whether you have the discretion to give a second call to a member and accept a closure motion when another member who is a colleague of his was seeking the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213ef034e22ff4f12b6bce0da1ec16a40\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e166ee14568f4edd8340c84825edcc2f\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002210149d816c5343e891196a1a4a9444ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210149d816c5343e891196a1a4a9444ad\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Assistant Speaker Roy, you have been recalled in regard to whether I as the Chair of the Committee had the authority to accept a closure motion from a member when other members of the Government backbench were seeking the call to speak. I believed that I was the sole judge of who got the call. I accepted the call from the senior Government Whip, who then moved a closure motion. I subsequently put the closure motion, and it was voted on. The question was that Part 3 would stand part. At that stage the Hon Trevor Mallard asked to recall the Speaker. On that basis, Mr Assistant Speaker, you are asked to adjudicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c85ca399503041db8e23662cf9c0b0da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c85ca399503041db8e23662cf9c0b0da\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, the facts as the Chair of the Committee has put them are entirely accurate. I would like to start off by referring you to the Waring case in 1984. I think the Speaker\u2019s ruling in that case is still the current ruling\u2014certainly, it is the one that I can remember\u2014as to the precedence for calling members. There is no doubt that there have been some changes in the rules since that time, but the rule that was set out quite clearly then was that, within a particular side, someone who had not had a call on a particular question had precedence over someone who had already had a call on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is my understanding, and I have checked with colleagues, that Mr Tremain had previously moved a closure motion. I know that in the past members have been allowed to move such a motion only once, but there is now no doubt that members can move it more than once\u2014that rule has changed. If Mr Tremain had been the only person calling from the National Party side, then of course this discussion would not be happening, but another National member, Cam Calder, was also calling, as loudly as Mr Tremain and very clearly, for the call at that time. It is my understanding that he has not had a call. The question, then, is not so much the acceptability of the Chair accepting the closure motion from Chris Tremain, because if he properly had the call there would not be a problem; the question is whether the rules have changed. Clearly, it is different for a Minister in the chair; if a Minister is in the chair, it has always been the case that that person has precedence and can take multiple calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI accept it is a general question, and there have been multiple Speakers\u2019 rulings that the Speaker or the Chair has the discretion as to who gets a call, but that has always been within a particular context. The context has changed over a period of time\u2014clearly, since MMP, and there have been some more\u2014[Interruption] Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175c788f317e4c48b401224df38b010d\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I was talking to my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73515fb95c4497a8ae0f16ef602f6b9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: All right. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1b67b17d274031a3aa5f16720479f5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order is being heard. There should be silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f8b6f07ee247b38f6f49e6f412edf2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, there have been some changes and some reordering of the way that things work. Certainly, Mr Dunne will remember, because the event probably led to our coming to Parliament very soon after, the question of the exclusion of the ability of Marilyn Waring to speak on nuclear legislation. The system of putting up a senior colleague was used to stop her, but in the Committee stage it had to be a separate senior colleague on each occasion. As Mr Dunne will remember, as it happened in the end I think the Hon Richard Prebble gave her\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bc9411b3e8144fba00eb2698281b173\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Yielded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee74ae73e2a4236ae4c4dc8b099c8d6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014he yielded, and she managed to take a call that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make is that I do not want to make any reflection on the Chair of the Committee. He was acting in good faith. Clearly, this is an unusual point of order. I have never seen, when a closure motion is being sought, two members standing together to compete for the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002209b9d4d6aaf843cdb1bef9646767bbfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209b9d4d6aaf843cdb1bef9646767bbfc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Given the quality of the debate this afternoon, I am not surprised that two members were competing to close it down. But let me suggest that Standing Order 132 in its various provisions makes it abundantly clear that any member can move a closure motion. Further, the issue of yielding has not been a factor in the Standing Orders since the beginning of the MMP Parliament, which was some 14-odd years ago. My third point is that it is not unusual for the Speaker to look to the more senior MP and give him or her the opportunity to speak, and in this case that was the senior whip. It is hard to imagine who in Parliament at the time might have been more senior. There is no breach of the Standing Orders here nor is there any breach of convention here. The closure motion was properly put according to the prescribed words that are required to be used. The Chairman of the Committee\u2014or, I should say, the Acting Speaker\u2014has done totally the right thing in accepting that closure motion, putting to the vote the question whether the debate should be closed, and now being in a position to put the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3ba1d4d5ee41fcad21223d50e90429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3ba1d4d5ee41fcad21223d50e90429\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, members, for your contributions. I think an interesting point has been raised. I have had some time to scrutinise various Speakers\u2019 rulings and Standing Orders. I am guided pretty much by Standing Order 102. It states the factors to take into account when the Speaker is calling a member. Of course, the Speaker in this case is the Chair, to whom the same rules apply. Who gets that call is entirely the prerogative of the Chair, or the Speaker. There is no obligation for the Chair, or the Speaker, to give a call to a member who has not taken a call, more so in Committee, where members do have multiple calls. I also make the observation that the Chair in accepting a call in the Committee of the whole House has no knowledge of what the nature of the call might be\u2014whether it is to make a contribution to the debate or to seek a closure. The Chair simply has no knowledge of the nature of the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI also make this observation, which I think obliquely relates to the matter of when or how the closure might have occurred. The Chair does not decide that it is time for the closure; the Chair decides that it is time for the Committee of the whole House to determine whether it wants to seek the closure. There is a pertinent difference on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo let me affirm that the Chair is under no obligation to give a call to a member who has not spoken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226e9ec20b824a416cbc014125db204fab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e9ec20b824a416cbc014125db204fab\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to seem to be trifling at all with your ruling, Mr Assistant Speaker Roy, but I think there is a very basic point that you have misunderstood in making your ruling, and that is the difference between the role of the Speaker and the role of the Chair. You have gone to factors to be taken into account by the Speaker under Standing Order 102. That, of course, is subject to Standing Order 105, which is about members being able to speak only once, except where otherwise provided, to any question before the House. Of course, there is no occasion when the Speaker is in the Chair where there is an ability for a member to speak other than in reply, and I do not think anyone is suggesting that this is the case. There are very few occasions these days when there are motions before the House where there is a reply; it used to be something that was more frequent. I do not think anyone would suggest that in this case Mr Tremain was speaking in reply, because he was not the Minister in the chair and he was not moving the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EStanding Order 102 works on the assumption that people do not have multiple calls. In fact, it does recognise the seniority of members and the interests and expertise of members who want to speak\u2014that is clear. It recognises that there is a system of priority. But that is the system that is used by the Speaker, and it does not take into account the exception in Standing Order 105, the first clause of which states: \u201CExcept as otherwise provided,\u201D. We know that it is otherwise provided that there are multiple calls on a Committee stage. Clearly, a number of us have had them, and we know that Mr Tremain is entitled to have a second call in order to seek the closure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ECan I just put in brackets that although some of us might be unhappy with the closure being granted, none of us is arguing about the Chairman\u2019s right to put the question to the House. That is not in contention as part of this point of order, which, Mr Assistant Speaker, you seemed to indicate in your earlier ruling. My submission to you is that although you were absolutely accurate as far as Standing Order 102 is concerned, you failed to take into account the additional factor that has come through on a regular basis in rulings from Chairs\u2014certainly, in all the time that I have been here\u2014which is that in the Committee stage they tend to give the call to those members who have not had the call previously. You may want to refer this matter to the Standing Orders Committee, which might find it appropriate to add a paragraph (e) to Standing Order 102 that states that in the Committee stage the Chairman should take into account whether a member has had the call previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd5c7aa5a4f14b159b64a635cbc4b84c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd5c7aa5a4f14b159b64a635cbc4b84c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: As to whether the Standing Orders Committee should look at this matter, any member can raise that issue, and I advise the member that if he believes it to be a significant issue, he should actually do that. I refer the member to Standing Order 169, \u201CConduct of proceedings\u201D, which expressly states that the same rules apply for the conduct of proceedings in a Committee of the whole House as apply in the House. That affirms Standing Order 102. Members might also like to look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 26/3, which again affirms the issues around seniority. So I am upholding the ruling that I have made, and I declare the House in Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d3c064bc6614845be1d86ec68c3f105\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000517\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff5a3c1178394faa85f7f2928a0e0ac8\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000519\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227fbf87aa99b746e3adfceafd16eb028e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de3d34284d434f5cbaf4383cc4b3ee67\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282ba4e80653a4498944a7c960bdd1edb\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f8d4840055499581a7a94fda9ab2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f8d4840055499581a7a94fda9ab2c2\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to say that I think this is the only part of this tax bill that is not subject to any amendments through Supplementary Order Paper 187, which was tabled on Wednesday, or was it Tuesday\u2014it was tabled this week. Part 4 involves amendments to the Income Tax Act 2004, and I must admit that I think every member knows that the Income Tax Act has taken a bit of a hammering in this term. What this part does not do is give a $1,000 tax cut to someone who is earning $1 million and give very little to those on the medium wage, but what it does do, for example, is talk about the portfolio investment entity impairment provisions, which have been talked about before, but are also covered by this bill. This bill adds new section HM 35B to the Income Tax Act, and also new section HL 19B, which is the one I will talk a little bit about. The reason these changes are being made is that they will clarify that multi-rate portfolio investment entities can claim deductions for expenses and pay tax for income at the point that they are reflected in the portfolio investment entity\u2019s unit price or its financial statements, even if this is before the portfolio investment entity has legally incurred or derived any expenditure or income. The purpose of this timing rule is to maintain investor equity over the timing by ensuring that investors who are exiting a portfolio investment entity are attributed their local share of the portfolio investment entity\u2019s tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe changes in the Income Tax Act with regard to portfolio investment entities were debated in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and that is one of the advantages of taking these sorts of bills to a select committee. It gives us the ability to question officials, to question our tax advisers, and to question submitters on the changes and on how these changes may impact upon their business. Quite a number of submitters wanted to make representations to the committee about the portfolio investment entity provisions. I must admit our technical adviser, our tax expert, Ms Turner, did a very good job in providing the committee with a non-technical, layman\u2019s, or layperson\u2019s\u2014can we say \u201Clayman\u2019s\u201D these days without\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b47bf32ec534b929db9279bf219cfb1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: If I were you I wouldn\u2019t use the word \u201Clayman\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf9abd8f1e84530a1ed1bb1637f4ed4\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014layperson\u2019s perspective and view of what the portfolio investment entity changes involved under the new timing rule. I will outline these a little bit because they are important and they make up by far the largest section of Part 4 of the amendments to the Income Tax Act in this bill. Under the new timing rule, any future change, expense, or income that has already been deducted or taxed will also be picked up for tax purposes at the point when the change is reflected in the portfolio investment entity unit price or financial statements. There is quite a chunk here in the legislation that determines future amounts. New section HL 19B(2) in clause 91(1) states: \u201CFor the purposes of determining an amount for a portfolio allocation period under section HL 19(3), a portfolio tax rate entity may take account of an amount of future income or future expenditure or loss that is\u2014(a) for future income, an amount that, when derived, would be class assessable income under section HL 19(4)(a):\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis provides a high degree of equity across investment classes, so that is the sort of thing we want to see. As mentioned, Labour cannot go with this bill, because there are so many changes that have not gone before a select committee and it makes it very, very difficult to have a good, robust debate on the changes when ordinary New Zealanders have not been consulted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe new sections in the Income Tax Act ensure that multi-rate portfolio investment entities are able to claim deductions for credit-impairment provisions when they are reflected in the portfolio investment entity\u2019s unit price or its financial statements. Credit-impairment provisions are created to reflect the decline in the financial assets due to past events. The reason this is necessary is reasonably obvious; it is because a lot of portfolio investment entities have suffered substantial losses due to the current financial crisis that the world has been experiencing for a couple of years. As a consequence, there needs to be a way to reflect this in legislation, as there is in other parts of legislation, and that is why\u2014in relation to clause 91\u2014these amendments are necessary. I think members would agree that investor equity is an admirable goal for any tax legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation a portfolio investment entity will be able to claim deductions for credit-impairment provisions only if it has objective evidence of a loss of an asset\u2019s value because of the events that have already occurred. I am not too sure what objective evidence is. I assume that the managers of the portfolio investment entity can go out and look at stock markets, analyse data, and talk to a whole range of people on the NZX and overseas, depending on where they have invested, and they can gather quantitative and qualitative evidence that there has, in fact, been a loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThese amendments apply retrospectively from 1 October 2007. As members will be well aware, it is very rare that tax legislation is allowed to apply retrospectively. I would like to digress ever so slightly. There were retrospective provisions in this bill and, as a committee, we discussed at great length whether this bill should contain retrospective provisions. We had much debate, which Sir Roger Douglas had a very active part in. For those who do not believe that Sir Roger is still alive, he took an active part in this debate, as did my colleagues Mr Burns and Mr Cunliffe. The Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill is contentious legislation, and in the end we decided that it would be in the best interests of all taxpayers if the courts made a ruling around the one clause of retrospective legislation that was contentious in the bill, which we think was probably the right outcome. As a consequence of that\u2014as a consequence of going through the select committee process\u2014the retrospective provision was withdrawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis part in regard to portfolio investment entities is retrospective, but it includes transitional measures to confirm the tax positions already taken by multi-rate portfolio investment entities on the timing of income and expenses, as well as credit-impairment provisions. These transitional measures prevent portfolio investment entities from making retrospective adjustments to their tax returns following these clarifications. By that I mean that we do not want to have portfolio investment entities, or any sort of legal entities that have already made representations to the Inland Revenue Department, had a ruling, and provided a tax return then coming back and saying: \u201COh, goodness me, with this new legislation we can claw back a whole lot of money.\u201D It actually works both ways. The portfolio investment entities themselves would not want to be taxed at a greater rate, which they would not do if we are talking about losses, anyway. But it is good piece of legislation. It is just a pity that the Supplementary Order Paper has not gone to a select committee, because we could have amended it, as we amended the legislation, through expert advice and liaising with the Inland Revenue Department officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat do we mean when we talk about reasonable estimation? New section HL 19B(3) in clause 91(1) talks about reasonable estimation. It states: \u201CFor the purposes of subsection (2), the entity must make a reasonable estimate of the amount and must be able to demonstrate, if required, the reasonableness of the estimation by\u2014(a) explaining why and when the income is likely to be derived or the expense is likely to be incurred, as applicable; and (b) providing the calculation method and actual calculations used to determine the amount, with details showing why the method is appropriate.\u201D Again, that is saying that a portfolio investment entity manager, or whoever is looking after the entity, cannot just turn up to the Inland Revenue Department and say: \u201CWe believe that we have incurred losses outside of this and we would like to make a representation.\u201D They have to have the evidence in front of them. It is very transparent, which all tax legislation should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that this is why we are so against this legislation. There is no transparency. Labour members have not been able to interrogate this legislation and talk to our officials or the Inland Revenue Department officials about it. But this does provide a level of transparency, which is most important, and it is welcome. I am pleased it is in here. There is something right in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe can also talk about credit-impairment provisions. We are debating Part 4, \u201CAmendments to Income Tax Act 2004\u201D, and clause 91(4), which deals with credit-impairment provisions, states: \u201CA portfolio tax entity may take account of a credit impairment provision under this section but only if the provision is counted as a credit impairment provision under NZIAS 39.\u201D However, a time limit is set in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228123a8ab9c4c4857acb03974e06127a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228123a8ab9c4c4857acb03974e06127a2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak in particular on clause 88, which includes some of the amendments to the Income Tax Act 2004, although, having looked at that Act, I find that those sections of the 2004 Act have already been repealed and replaced in the 2007 legislation. It might be one of these numbering questions, because in clause 88 the Minister is asked to repeal section CE 1(1)(c), but there is no 1(1)(c) in the legislation. There is CE (1)(c); there is no 1(1)(c) whatsoever. To be fair, I checked back to the 2004 legislation and there was no\u2014[Interruption] What are we repealing here if that particular section is not there? That is the question I have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think it is fair to say that the fact that it is not there is recognised with its replacement subsection (1B). So if there is no CE 1(1)(c) after CE 1(1), there is a recognition that there is a numbering problem. Last time I identified one of these issues the Minister told us that we had restarted the English language at B rather than at A and that that was the system being used. But that does not appear to be the case here. Again, it might be one of those technical errors that can be tidied up in the Clerk\u2019s Office, but I think it would be useful in order to have it work properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe primary purpose of my taking a call and tabling an amendment is to be of assistance to the Government. My amendment relates to subclause (3) of clause 88, with the suggestion that subclauses (1) and (2), instead of applying to the 2005-06 year and later income years, would apply to the 2000-01 year. The reason for this is relatively simple, and I think it will be known in the future as the \u201CBill English (Pay Your Tax) clause\u201D. If we look carefully at new subsection (1B), in clause 88, we can see that this focuses on the proper taxation of the market value of the benefits of accommodation. It makes it clear that tax should be paid on the benefits of accommodation, which are part of the perks of the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think it has been made very, very clear over a period of time that Mr English has had substantial benefits. I am not saying they have all been through accommodation\u2014I think there have been some other benefits as well\u2014but they have been in the region of $500,000, as a result of suggesting that he lived in Dipton when in fact he lived in Wellington. Why should he pay back taxes on those benefits only back to 2005-06 when the situation has been in place since at least 2000-01? I think the general feeling is that there is a lot of evidence that it has been in place for that length of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI turn to new subsection (1B), in clause 88, which states: \u201CThe market value of the following benefits provided to a person is income of the person if the benefit is provided in relation to an office or position held by them: (a) the provision of accommodation:\u201D. It might be convoluted, it might have gone through a trust or two, it might have had one name on the trust earlier and other names on the trust later, it might have been the most expensive State house in the country\u2014on recent leasehold arrangements it is certainly the most expensive State house in the country\u2014but it is clear that the provision of accommodation is taxable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am not sure whether all of my colleagues are here. It might be that fringe benefit tax has been paid on this on our behalf, but I doubt it. Some of my colleagues who are not Wellington-based are now looking at me slightly askance. Subsection (1B)(b) refers to the market value of \u201Cthe provision of an accommodation allowance instead of accommodation.\u201D, and states that it is in fact taxable\u2014and taxable back to 2005-06. I know that the Minister is a Wellington Minister, and that, like me, he is not interested in this. If we take into account the interest that some people might have in this question, and if only Wellington members could vote on this particular issue, we could get an interesting result. I think we started the year talking about accommodation, and, in fact, I think we finished last year talking about accommodation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe fact that we are finishing up the year dealing with subsection (1B), which relates to the benefits of accommodation and what is part of someone\u2019s taxable income, shows just how much Gerry Brownlee, who we know is right across the details of this taxation legislation\u2014Mr Brownlee is a details man\u2014still dislikes Bill English for taking his job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIf we look at section CE (1)(c), referred to in clause 88(1), we see that it did not go to the question of accommodation; it went to the question of the market value of the board that someone receives. My understanding is that there is a difference between a boarding arrangement, which normally involves living with someone else in a boarding house, and the supply of accommodation, which might more logically be the entire house. So this is quite a big change. I say to the Minister in charge of the bill, the Hon Peter Dunne, that this is an old bit of the bill. It is the bit that has been to the select committee. I ask him whether Bill English made any personal submissions on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbdb4d88e93347bb851a97a2a2d8a54b\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s bound to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd774a934df44a0a01291bedf399d85\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014to the select committee. I am not asking him to reveal whether Mr English pleaded at the Cabinet committee not to have to pay the extra tax, because I think it would be inappropriate for Mr Dunne to say that. However, I ask my colleagues whether there was ever any request from Mr English not to pay the taxation on the massive accommodation benefits that he received over a period of time. It was roughly half a million dollars of accommodation over the 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef2c959aaad425baf0ece2cdbd8165c\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How do you work that out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba34c681962344d6a5a7abb2b43c83bd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to go into a lot of detail. I am happy to talk about his accommodation, but clearly there is another set of benefits, which the member received as a result of pretending to live in Dipton, that go beyond that. I think to go further would be entering an area that I would be slightly uncomfortable to head down. But I think many members will be aware of what makes up the balance of the half million dollars, over and above the accommodation allowances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa66c2c4cf04c89904f601849233f09\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That would be taxable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225579943f69804f23aa80c3ffce0a9d7f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is taxable. It is clear, if one looks at subsection (1B), in clause 88(2), that it is taxable. There is no doubt that that is part of someone\u2019s income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am certain the Commissioner of Inland Revenue will be having a look at this question. I think it is probably especially the case where the benefit is being paid when it should not be being paid\u2014when someone is not shifting from somewhere that they are normally resident. One of the questions I have is whether the Commissioner of Inland Revenue uses the same definition as the Speaker as to where someone is normally resident. I think the Speaker has been exceptionally liberal in that area, and I think that, generally, the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has been more factual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u00225c52e74653fd42a0b6d1dedd00cd3908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c52e74653fd42a0b6d1dedd00cd3908\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022becf1026a86441c2bdb9db10a36ff14a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022becf1026a86441c2bdb9db10a36ff14a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise reluctantly to disagree with my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard. Before I do, however, I would like to take to task the comments made by my colleague Stuart Nash, that somehow or another the retrospectivity of these matters would be determined by the courts. The next speaker, my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard, pointed out that at least one aspect of this legislation goes back to 2005-06, and he mounted a particularly good argument as to why it needs to go back further. That seems to me to be yet to be resolved in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703a2680ba7e46138834b765d6a04bca\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why do you disagree with me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219cabf7b83a74721be1723464adf27d5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will disagree with my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard in a minute. But before I do that, I would like to ask Stuart Nash to take another call and explain to me why he thinks that retrospectivity does not apply in this legislation. It appears to me that it does. Of course, if the Minister would be able to help that would be fine, but we are not anticipating so much assistance from that quarter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EAs to the remarks of the Hon Trevor Mallard, I agree in part with them and hesitantly, because he is an accountant and I am a simple country veterinarian\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226907dc9517094890a75b8f32ee2b7dcb\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Very simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e659cbe560d044eabacf7e14899864cf\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am a very simple country veterinarian. I simply hold the view that in the case of members of Parliament, because that is where he was directing a lot of his comments, I do not think these provisions would apply, because the member of Parliament has a principal place of residence that is not here. Of course, if assistance were given for that principal place of residence, then of course we would expect it to apply, as we would expect for any other form of fringe benefit. But a member of Parliament, like a sort of travelling salesman, will have a principal place of residence, but will have accommodation costs as part of his or her weekly circuit, or whatever it is to be. That, surely, cannot be subject to taxation, as much as real and actual reimbursement of costs can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIf one looks at it a bit more carefully, however, one will see there is an exception, and the only exception is the one my colleague drew attention to, which is where we have a point of agreement. The point of agreement is that the Hon Bill English is caught by this. The reason he is caught by it is that he has had two principal places of residence for a number of years. One of them is the real, actual principal place of residence, which is Wellington, because that is where he lives. That is where his family lives, it is where his kids go to school, and on it goes. The other one is back in Dipton, which is where he said his principal place of residence was so he could get a deal on the other house. That is where the term \u201Cdouble Dipton\u201D came from. I cannot remember who first coined that\u2014oh, that is right; the term \u201Cdouble Dipton\u201D came from the Hon Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI think the member for Clutha-Southland is uniquely vulnerable to these clauses, so then the question arises that if the legislation is good enough to be retrospective to the years 2005 and 2006, why should it not be retrospective beyond that? There is no 7-year rule here; it is about a 4 or 5-year rule. We know that the member in question has lived in Wellington since the year 2000\u2014in fact, from a little earlier than that, I would like to advise the Hon Trevor Mallard. So I strongly support the idea\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7068e61b512451e84923be9c52686c2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: But didn\u2019t he have a State house then too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0293049f2394984bc8b057b67ea653f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there was a period of time, I think, where he boarded or rented, but then he purchased. I am trying to remember all of those years too, so perhaps I should just say that my gentle recollection is that it was a little before the turn of the century. I agree with my colleague that in the case of the Hon Bill English this legislation, on its face, appears to make him vulnerable to the paying back of a whole bunch of money, and not before time, although it is still not enough, because of that whole period before 2005. However long it is, he still gets away scot-free. So it is good that there might be some more money coming into the Government\u2019s coffers from that member of Parliament, but it is not OK that he still manages to max out his benefit at the expense of the taxpayer more than any other MP I have ever come across. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4a1731d0c343459783f64150bab6af\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will accept the Hon Maryan Street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8d3671b0a34a01bf26373662d2b719\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why? Because she hasn\u2019t had a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022985057e8fee1471a853dd56808e60204\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022985057e8fee1471a853dd56808e60204\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248380a8d2b3549b09d07bafb766eaeb4\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed37bcf878b46c280e7d750799e7ffd\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658d373e1dd04cb28737a50f2e75331b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I like her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b865afc5a1c84a14af6b11111d42800e\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman; for whatever reason, thank you for the call. I will accept any of those reasons. I wish to speak to clause 88 also, in relation to Part 4 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which is before us under urgency. The first point I make is one that has been made by my colleagues previously, and that is about the process of urgency. Perhaps a taxation measure is one of the few pieces of legislation that could have the word \u201Curgency\u201D applied to it simply in order to get everything processed and in place in time for 1 April in the following year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974020e281db4527930ffdcba32f59d0\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This debate is about Part 4. We have had wide-ranging debates earlier. This debate is specifically about Part 4. It is not about the process of urgency; we have moved beyond that. I just ask the Chair to draw the attention of the speaker to Part 4, and to focus on that part of the topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a23d39dcf8e430493201b20d6475a48\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I uphold the point of order. The member will speak about Part 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221404bfc0a1b9458cb25644e02474e78a\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman; I was on my way to that. Clause 88 could be an example of one of two things, and I would invite the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, to explain to this Committee which of those two things it demonstrates. It could demonstrate a shambles of consultation amongst Ministers. That is apparent in clause 88 in the first instance, given that it talks about the \u201CBenefit of accommodation\u201D and that subsection (1B), inserted by subclause (2) in clause 88, states: \u201C(1B) The market value of the following benefits provided to a person is income of the person if the benefit is provided in relation to an office or position held by them: (a) the provision of accommodation: (b) the provision of an accommodation allowance instead of accommodation.\u201D This could be called the \u201CBill English\u2019s revenge\u201D clause, because now he has been shamed out of claiming any accommodation allowance\u2014notwithstanding the fact that the accommodation allowance has been increased by at least 100 percent by this current Government, so Ministers can now claim more than twice as much as Ministers previously could claim; certainly, that is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022320f84e11462477a8c4449c3db6529d6\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b27cb5e4b1349b2a26c61c84a6f9710\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely true, and I can demonstrate it from the amounts I was able to claim as a Minister. It is completely true; I believe Ministers are able to claim something in the vicinity of $37,500, or something of that sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221467d11ead4f47f7bb29a653ae121796\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f2ac9bc77c448fe9b44f4644e39aeb0\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely $37,500. In fact, $24,000 was the amount previously; that is exactly right, and I invite those members who have not been Ministers previously to go back and have a look at the rules that applied earlier. But let us have a look, because now this amount is to be taxable. Bill English may well have consulted with the Minister over this clause, and said: \u201CAll right, I am not getting this, I have been shamed out of claiming this, so everybody else who is getting it is now going to be taxed on it.\u201D He may well have consulted with the Minister over that provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThen what follows is the backdating. Why would the Minister of Finance work against his own interests and suggest that this legislation should be backdated to 2005-06, notwithstanding the fact that my colleague pointed out earlier that it could have been backdated much further? In the case of Mr English, it would have scored the Inland Revenue Department a considerably greater amount in taxation. Or was the other reason the fact that the Minister in the chair might have to answer to the fact that that clause, the backdating clause, was simply inserted to throw us off the track, to distract us from the purpose, which was to make these accommodation benefits taxable? Bill English clearly wanted to exact revenge for the fact that he was shamed, because of his own duplicity and manoeuvring, into not claiming the accommodation allowance previously. So I ask the Minister which it is. Which of these two reasons is it? Is it that consultation amongst Ministers is shambolic, as we always suspect is the case\u2014that the right hand does not know what the other right hand is doing in this National Government? Or is it to throw us off the track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022faa8e1a5039342318562024aa8f32810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faa8e1a5039342318562024aa8f32810\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8799f522ce6430f8dce09aeaed88548\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8799f522ce6430f8dce09aeaed88548\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can I just get the attention of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, because what we now regard as a possible real question has come up. I seek leave for the debate on Part 4 to be dealt with subsequent to the last part of the bill\u2014Part 7. I would just like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704b6cea8db244e895a377d46e3e77eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is asking that the debate be postponed to become the last debate in the Committee of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022357e70ce5c754832a0861aeddd6bd0d2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The last part of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02f97466f5749a7af92fc0e9371678e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the last part to be debated, so we would move to Part 5 now, then revert to Part 4. The member is asking for that, because he believes he has discovered something that needs some consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216cb6bf950d14fa48aac76025d6f0c06\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. To make it beyond all doubt, the leave would not interfere with the urgency motion. It would just give an opportunity for some advice to be sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00226f1d694fad984578b0b56c9d7c0a7190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f1d694fad984578b0b56c9d7c0a7190\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, can I speak to this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09dd90171c9431b9fea185c4e2b24c7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order. Normally we would not do that, but it might be helpful if we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0581c4f88d4ba9a1709f8f8e9fa5de\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not persuaded by the course of action the member is proposing but I do concede there are some issues we need to work through. Maybe, with the indulgence of the Committee, if this debate were to proceed for not an interminable amount longer but for a little longer, during the course of it we might be able to resolve the issues more rapidly. So I am not in favour of leave being granted, but I would allow the indulgence to perhaps run for another couple of speakers, while we just sort this particular issue out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221e5b68271993496b8f1f5801aa864f57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e5b68271993496b8f1f5801aa864f57\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I am\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2633e614c2d4471aa8dafaafc50e501\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have given the call to the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4cbfbc0fdcb491e80e9e52d402869a7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I wanted to speak exactly on the matter concerned, but if another member is prepared to take the call, I think it might\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1bcc5941ed840bca0c2a51de11adc38\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: You are yielding, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14619723e6d45a1aa4bce2e599a3dfe\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am finishing this call. I have one left, I am sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdf4fd43e1744f2886659baeb126cd2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Is some other member seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87c51540a6248c9ae0f3837c9d4cff3\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211215a7830804f5391ce70ea0b485e56\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a63c19a1f1e44a06b072481b0b10f866\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Chris Tremain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002231ef391e17a8496bac3a4e09c64056e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231ef391e17a8496bac3a4e09c64056e5\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e22097fe4d847d8821221880fcb019d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no need for indignation to the Chair. The Chair is well aware of what is occurring in the Chamber. I will take the call from the Hon Pete Hodgson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a5107dd80b44c799d555b3cef7e8ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a5107dd80b44c799d555b3cef7e8ee\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is time to return to clause 88 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, and get a few things said. My colleague Maryan Street mentioned that ministerial accommodation is now provided at the rate of $37,500 per Minister, and that is the case. There are two exceptions, however. The first is where the Minister lives in Wellington, as does the Minister of Revenue, the Hon Peter Dunne. He is eligible for no such\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dbe052f767348abbb400a9430840986\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: And he has never sought anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b909aeb5c06645fa93e359959445f987\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed he has not, I am sure, because he goes home when he goes home, which is not something I was able to do, or am able to do, because I do not live in Wellington; I live in Dunedin. Any Minister who lives in Wellington is not eligible for that $37,500. Therefore any possibility of the provision of an accommodation allowance instead of accommodation, as stated in new subsection (1B)(b) in clause 88(2), cannot apply to a Wellington-based Minister. But there is another category of Minister who does not receive $37,500, and those Ministers are the ones who had a house here when they were in Opposition, and who live during the week in that same house now that they are Ministers in Government. Their allowance is not $37,500. I cannot remember what it is; it is a little bit less than that. Let us call it $27,500\u2014I have actually forgotten the amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe point is that the $37,500 is payable to Ministers\u2014and most Ministers fall into the $37,500 category\u2014irrespective of how much money they spend on Wellington accommodation. It is a gift. It goes into their bank account fortnightly, or monthly, or whenever it is, for them to spend on accommodation as they see fit. They are, of course, entitled to spend more than $37,500 a year on Wellington accommodation. Maybe some of them do. But if one thinks of $37,500 as being a reasonably large amount of money compared with the amount of money that backbenchers get to spend on Wellington accommodation\u2014somewhere less than two-thirds of that\u2014then one can come to the conclusion that some Ministers are able to live in Wellington rather cheaply indeed. In fact, once we say to anyone that they do not need to provide receipts for this expenditure, that they can just take the money and use it as they see fit, it is logical that there is an incentive to stay with a cousin. I do not know whether any Minister does that, but the point I am making\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c1dffb8090042dc836e60fb0e3d35fc\u0022\u003EHon Tariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, dear! You\u2019re pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1dc09193da543489ae9656a9c9616fc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Tariana Turia thinks it is funny. I do not. I think if we are looking for greater transparency in our systems, including the taxation treatment of these things\u2014as in clause 88\u2014then giving people $37,500 and saying they can have it no matter how much they spend on their Wellington accommodation is not transparent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe House got into a bit of a lather about a year ago concerning the Deputy Prime Minister, who is also the Minister of Finance. He was double-dipping, living in Dipton and in Wellington. As a result of that the Prime Minister, John Key, said not to worry, that he would fix it, that we would have a new system, that the old system was too complicated. Well, it was not complicated for every other member of the National-M\u0101ori-ACT Government Cabinet. It certainly was not complicated when I was in Cabinet, but it seems to be too complicated now as even poor old Bill English got it all confused. So we changed the system. The new system, the Prime Minister told us, would be cheaper. He said: \u201CJust you wait! I\u2019m going to be really tough on my Ministers. They will get only $37,500.\u201D Guess what? The price of ministerial expenditure has gone up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ETo recap, there is no taxation as mentioned in clause 88 on ministerial expenditure, and I think that is proper. We have moved from actual and reasonable expenses\u2014the actual costs\u2014to some guesswork costs for every Minister. The guesswork has come in at $37,500. Of course, every Minister\u2014reasonably\u2014has maxed it out. They are all saying: \u201CYep, sure, I\u2019m going to take all of that.\u201D In fact, it is given to them. They have no option. When we tot it all up we find that the Prime Minister, who promised New Zealand cheaper ministerial accommodation, has given New Zealand more expensive ministerial accommodation. Although I do not aim this argument at Ministers, that means that a bunch of taxpayer money that used not to go into ministerial pockets now does go into ministerial pockets, at a time when we are all supposed to be having a nil wage increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo we can see that there is an issue around ministerial accommodation, and it is not fixed by clause 88. It is not fixed, and the only way to fix it is to go back to actual and reasonable expenses, by one method or another. I think an honest and transparent Government, or an honest and transparent bunch at Ministerial Services, or an honest and transparent Minister responsible for Ministerial Services would take us back to that form of payment, which served New Zealand rather well for a rather long time, and was applied to any former Minister on this side of the Chamber, and, for their first couple of years, all the Ministers on the other side of the Chamber as well. So I think clause 88 is worth reflecting on for what it does not do. I am pretty sure it will not cover that $37,500 of expenditure. I am pretty sure it will not make it taxable. I do not think it should be taxable, but I think the way in which we have managed to get ourselves an increase in ministerial expenses needs to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc2f745d9e5746febd57afd24f8a90f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc2f745d9e5746febd57afd24f8a90f5\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed6ee6edeac4db29c05ed0bc5df29c0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put. Those of that opinion will say Aye, the contrary No\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b769b564c1342afbaa30327c2dbee1d\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I do apologise but I was given to understand that we were going to talk this through until such time as it did not need to be talked through any more. Nobody has advised the Committee that the need has now gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022638cd767726c406291292c5c74a2addb\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Can I speak briefly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220b83bb660854d5ba119193b528503ef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just consider what I am going to do. I had commenced putting the vote, and we now have, I think, an expression that some kind of explanation from the Minister might be in order. I think I should seek leave for the Minister to give a brief explanation, and then I will put the vote, which I had commenced. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed? There being not, I call the Hon Peter Dunne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002273eeb65d703c4a7383d7e6d3a2535272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273eeb65d703c4a7383d7e6d3a2535272\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will not abuse the leave of the Committee, so I will be very brief. This is quite technical stuff, but essentially Mr Mallard, officials, and I have gone away and looked at the relevant statutes and the interpretation of them, and have come to a position where we are satisfied that the concerns that he was expressing relating to the application to particular members are not, in fact, valid concerns. This legislation is essentially remedial in terms of the 2007 legislation, but the depth of the definition relating to accommodation actually covers the situation he was expressing concern about. Essentially, we are satisfied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b483f1ac16db48fb809cbb977a141d91\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000609\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 88 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000610\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) \u201C2005-06\u201D and substitute \u201C2000-01\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eb4e9fe5cf62452bb373687525412b0b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d9880f2b68b14b1c9348b2eafe3882ce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a82ff97bb2041589749ef972f344048\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to KiwiSaver Act 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022d278c8377efe4320a64058a05cc1c8fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d278c8377efe4320a64058a05cc1c8fc\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I was hoping that you, Mr Chairman, would call me in the debate on the last part, but that is OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eaf9a459d274934b4557cf804b8f35a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re getting a very fair deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9944d50db249a4b31a30a67e6cf1a3\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very fair deal, I agree. You are a very fair Chairman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe are back, once again, to amendments made in this 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, which was tabled on Wednesday. I wonder whether there is a little dissent between the honourable Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, and his National colleagues. I say that because of what happened about 10 minutes ago, before the Hon Pete Hodgson took a call. The Minister stood up and said he thought we could deal with this if we had a couple more calls on the part. We could deal with it here and now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThat was sort of agreed. Labour members understood that that was what would happen: there would be a couple of calls and we would deal with it, because it was quite an important matter dealing with members\u2019 out-of-town expenses. As soon as that was agreed upon\u2014and I thought it was agreed upon\u2014the Minister in the chair went outside\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd3b726e5e8479c8f6a43e5b1286c91\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This has nothing to do with Part 5 of the bill. Again, this is a tight part and he is talking about what might have happened historically. Can you ask him to focus on Part 5, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a431bd1a07fa4d2a923a9129caec8856\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think we should debate Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e81290f9f25a498ea0992d4514a3c459\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I agree. I suppose I was just very surprised that National tried to call a closure motion before the Minister returned to the chair. That is why I was a bit surprised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EPart 5 basically deals with amendments to the KiwiSaver Act 2006. There is a summary of proposed amendments in the Supplementary Order Paper. First of all there is a consequential amendment that relates to the introduction of look-through companies. We have talked about these at length and no doubt we will be talking about them a lot more. The amendment gets rid of loss attributing qualifying companies and brings in look-through companies without any proper consultation at all. The Supplementary Order Paper has not gone to a select committee. Mr Brendon Burns, who is a very valuable member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the Hon Shane Jones, who is a very important member of the select committee, and the Hon David Cunliffe have not been allowed to look at this amendment and understand the implications of the changes to the KiwiSaver Act and look-through companies. If it had gone to the select committee we would have been able to question tax officials and we would have been able to question our expert adviser and come up with a reasonable debate and a good line on how it will work. We would have been able to satisfy ourselves that, in fact, this is good, sound legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe irony is that when I look in the Supplementary Order Paper at new clause 94B, which talks about look-through companies, I see that we would not necessarily disagree with some of this legislation if we had had the opportunity to analyse it in the way that members of Parliament should and the way that the people of New Zealand expect. That is the concern we have about this legislation. I am not too sure whether we have made that clear, but that is the concern we have about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI will talk about clauses 94 to 99. A summary of the proposed amendments states: \u201CIf a KiwiSaver scheme provider winds up their operation and ceases to exist, Inland Revenue manages the transfer of members to a new scheme,\u201D\u2014that sounds good; it is a great idea\u2014\u201Cfollowing notification by the scheme trustees or the Government Actuary. Several remedial amendments to the scheme wind-up provisions within the KiwiSaver Act 2006 will fine-tune the current provisions, ensuring they give full effect to the scheme wind-up policy intent. These amendments clarify the date a member is allocated to a new scheme, add a requirement for scheme providers to supply the IRD number (tax file number) they hold for transferring members, and remove the requirement to send additional information packs to existing members.\u201D It is one of those common-sense amendments\u2014if we take out the Supplementary Order Paper and put it to one side\u2014that actually makes it easier for people to become involved and to stay involved within the KiwiSaver provision and within the tax regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs either the Hon Trevor Mallard or the Hon Pete Hodgson\u2014someone on the Labour side\u2014mentioned, tax legislation is probably too big at the moment. I was talking to a Queen\u2019s Counsel about 6 months ago and he said that Singaporean tax legislation is about one-tenth the size of New Zealand tax legislation and there are no problems with the Singaporean regime in terms of the level of avoidance we have here. It may be, of course, that tax avoiders in Singapore get whipped\u2014I am not too sure whether that is the case\u2014which might act as a deterrent. But the point is that we have a lot of tax legislation, it is very complex, and it is quite hard to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMy colleague Pete Hodgson outlined that point before. As a very senior member of Parliament and as a former Cabinet Minister who knows legislation like the back of his hand\u2014and he knows his hand very well; he was a vet\u2014if he finds this legislation hard to understand, how will New Zealanders who are concerned about the complexity of legislation find it? Pete Hodgson knows legislation, he knows how to read it, and he knows how to cross-reference it, yet even he is having difficulty. That is no disrespect to my colleague\u2019s intelligence, because we all know that \u201Cvetenariany\u201D school\u2014I cannot even say it properly, can I? Vet school is one of the hardest to get into. Well, it is now; it might not have been when Pete Hodgson got in, but I suspect it was probably even harder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI come back to KiwiSaver. KiwiSaver is a hugely successful scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f73491d385489282ff5813dedd917c\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: A great Labour scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f219273bbaf44f96b49c0612b2021821\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014put together, of course, by Labour. But we do not need to go on about all successful schemes being put together by Labour! We absolutely need to make it easy and as simple as possible for people to remain in schemes for whatever reason they decide, even if, for example, a provider winds up. If a provider winds up and the person putting money into that scheme wishes to remain in KiwiSaver\u2014and why would they not\u2014this amendment makes it easy for them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBasically, once KiwiSaver scheme trustees resolve to wind up their scheme and nominate an effective date of closure, they have 14 days to lodge a copy of notice with both the Government Actuary and the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. Currently section 50 of the KiwiSaver Act 2006 determines that when the Commissioner receives notice from a provider of the impending wind-up of a scheme, the member must be allocated by default to another scheme as soon as is practicable. Section 51(4)(b) of the Act determines that the final date for allocating the member to a new scheme should be 3 months after the date on which the notice has been received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe problem we had, and the problem that the Finance and Expenditure Committee dealt with, is that these sections do not take into account the effective date of closure nominated in the notice by the scheme that is being wound up. This is what clauses 94 to 99 deal with. It is likely to be the date that transfer of membership has been arranged for. These clauses just tie it up, clarify it, and make it a lot simpler. It makes it easier for Kiwis who are in KiwiSaver to make sure they do not miss out in any way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ETo have the final allocation date set at 3 months after the date that notification was received can cause an early transfer of members. Again, it is one of those unintentional consequences that we need to mitigate. This affects the scheme providers\u2019 obligations to continue to meet the provision of their trustee until the scheme is wound up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe have here a Supplementary Order Paper that changes some of the provisions of the Act. Of course, Labour members cannot support it, because we have only just seen it. A lot of us were out, we had planned days in our electorates, we were at school prize-givings, and we were doing all the things that good constituency and list MPs\u2014and list MPs who are going to be constituency MPs\u2014do, so we did not have a good opportunity to analyse new clause 94B, which is about the automatic enrolment rules that will not be applied. We have in clauses 94 to 99 of the bill the sort of common-sense tax legislation that Labour has always supported in the past because it has gone through the right process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ETo be a little more detailed, clauses 95 and 96 talk about the allocation of certain people to default KiwiSaver schemes and the sending of investment statements. They do not take into account, as mentioned, the effective date of closure nominated by the scheme that is being wound up. It is likely to be the date that it has been arranged for. We have not talked about it at length, but we gave it due consideration in the select committee, as we would have given due consideration to new clause 94B, if that Supplementary Order Paper had been its own bill. One could make a very strong argument that a Supplementary Order Paper that is larger than the bill should perhaps be the bill itself, and the bill should be the Supplementary Order Paper. Having said that, I say that that is not a good way to do things. All tax legislation should be in a bill that goes through the proper process; I do not think anyone would doubt that at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EClause 98 deals with the issuing of information packs. Currently, section 59(a) of the KiwiSaver Act provides that KiwiSaver information packs should be sent to members when their scheme is winding up. Again, this makes sense, because we do not want people to be operating in the dark. The lack of financial literacy in this country has led to massive losses. I know the Retirement Commissioner is working very hard to address the issue of financial literacy, and I say that it is about time. It is a wonderful initiative that I think we all support\u2014I know the Ministry of Education has got behind it\u2014because the level of financial literacy is dreadful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229fa775d7bf3146b38456a03c22761c1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fa775d7bf3146b38456a03c22761c1c\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Here we are, debating Part 5, clauses 94 to 100, of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. Again, I note with some disdain the fact that part of the Minister of Revenue\u2019s 70-page Supplementary Order Paper 187 relates to clause 94 of Part 5. The comment I will make relates to the need for very great care to be taken with matters involving superannuation. We deal with issues that traverse generations when we make changes to superannuation. Of course, KiwiSaver is the basis for saving introduced by the last Labour Government, and this legislation amends the original 2006 Act. The signals are that this is probably a technical amendment, but the Government does need to tread very carefully in respect of superannuation, given its track record, which is poor, to say the very least. It dates back to Sir Robert Muldoon\u2019s change to superannuation in 1975, changing from a contributing scheme to a \u201Cpay as you go\u201D scheme for national superannuation. This was a retrograde step that ended a contributing scheme that would have seen New Zealand as a much wealthier nation today if it were still in place. It continued through to Jim Bolger\u2019s \u201Cno ifs, no buts, no maybes\u201D on the surcharge, which was rapidly overturned as soon as National got into Government. It was followed in 1995-1996 by the Shipley administration taking national superannuation from 65 percent of the average wage back to 60 percent of the average wage. That was also regarded by New Zealanders as wholly inappropriate, and that Government was judged in large part in 1999 on the basis of that, leading to a change in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESo this Government needs to tread very warily when it comes to making changes to superannuation. That is why, when debating Part 5 of the bill and noting that we have a Supplementary Order Paper introducing new clause 94B without any consideration other than this rapid debate in the Chamber under urgency 2 weeks before Christmas, Labour members have to express very real concern, because superannuation is something that stretches from teenagers\u2014in fact, even further than that. We have a number of children who have been enrolled in KiwiSaver, with parents starting a saving regime, obviously encouraged and sparked by the Government contribution. I say that is fine, if it gets the saving habit established. The Government contribution was introduced in the KiwiSaver Act 2006, which is amended by the Part 5 of the bill, most of which I acknowledge came through the select committee in the appropriate process, but we do have the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister, which has come out of nowhere, as far as Labour is concerned, in the last 48 hours. It has a new clause that is making changes without any opportunity for input or consideration, other than the very narrow window of opportunity provided here in the Committee stage and in the third reading of the bill. We have to note considerable concern about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 187 makes changes in respect of those receiving payments such as accident compensation or parental leave payments who are not deemed to be in new employment. This may well be a technical change, but as experience has shown over the years, when it comes to tax legislation, and, most especially, when we see tax legislation that affects superannuation, we need to proceed with great caution. Obviously, this debate is ongoing. We received the report of the Retirement Commissioner just this week, which suggested changes to the age of eligibility for superannuation. Obviously, those are issues that Parliament may have to consider at some point. But, at the moment, what we as a Parliament have in front of us in this Committee is a change introduced by Supplementary Order Paper to the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI note that there are always good ideas about superannuation. When we were debating KiwiSaver back in 2006, there were a host of things. It is appropriate that good ideas are given consideration by Parliament. It may be that Supplementary Order Paper 187 is introducing a change that is well considered, worthy, and makes the appropriate changes, but it does need to be aired properly through the parliamentary structure and through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022615fa65b9abb4ca78c9611ed9428d612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022615fa65b9abb4ca78c9611ed9428d612\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. To ensure that members on the other side of the Chamber realise the particular legislation we are dealing with, I say that we are on Part 5 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which contains the amendments to the KiwiSaver Act 2006. I fear the quality of the debate is about to change as the Minister of Revenue, Mr Dunne, leaves. That comment is neither positive nor negative; I just leave it for members to dwell upon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI draw our attention to clause 220B, \u201CInformation sharing\u201D. During the course of the deliberations at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I was one of the members who expressed concern in relation to an earlier discussion document in which officials contemplated the provision of information to credit agencies in the private sector about the indebtedness of citizens and what obligations or disputes they might have, such as the liabilities of parents who have fled to Aussie while their kids are still here, or the filing of late tax returns and residual obligations that are being worked through. Fortunately, this portion does not bring legislative life to that suggestion in the discussion document. But, for the purposes of the KiwiSaver scheme, it says it is possible\u2014and I should imagine that it is absolute common sense\u2014that there be the sharing and provision of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is always timely\u2014and it is an important part of the role of the parliamentarian\u2014to point out the danger of creep. The danger is that what seems to be an innocuous change or a modest regulatory amendment develops a momentum and life of its own. I guess I want to repeat to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Education, and our colleagues on the other side of the Chamber that whenever we are dealing with information, we must ensure that the procedures and parameters around who manages that information, and the purposes for which the information is being sent or dedicated, are tightly constrained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe all know as public figures that information when misused, or information that might fall into the wrong hands, can have a destructive impact on how fellow New Zealanders or the community may view our suitability for a role. Indeed, it can be used for a host of improper purposes. The Minister and the officials need to be extremely sensitive to that. A number of parliamentarians, by and large, do not want to obfuscate or worsen the pathway ahead for the officials working on tax legislation, but members should know that a host of us are regularly petitioned by garden-variety Kiwis about their dealings with the State agencies, about whether information being provided to them is both accurate and completely comprehensive, and about whether all the information that is being held is actually necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is a reference here to initial steps to winding up the KiwiSaver scheme. I do not want to repeat what earlier speakers have said; my colleagues have made our point. A small forest has been cut down and transformed into the Supplementary Order Paper. Mr Cunliffe and others have highlighted that. But without a doubt, these technical amendments presage a deeper, more savage set of changes that are on the way. I am sure my senior colleagues will address that matter in more detail than I will, but I cannot let my small contribution at this stage end without making the observation that I think there is a great deal of potency in the term \u201Cwinding up of KiwiSaver scheme\u201D. The attenuation and the weakening of KiwiSaver started from the moment that the last election was held and\u2014unfortunately for us\u2014lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI believe we will hear a great deal more from other speakers as to whether these technical changes actually reflect a deeper agenda\u2014that is, the winding up of the KiwiSaver scheme as we know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00220376ccb77b8d467a9c1b445e787f1de8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220376ccb77b8d467a9c1b445e787f1de8\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd8adec9efd4bbfa6032d8890fd7e59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd8adec9efd4bbfa6032d8890fd7e59\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take my first call on Part 5, on the especially important topic of KiwiSaver. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating, and KiwiSaver has been eaten by almost one out of every two adult New Zealanders. There are 1.5 million - odd members in the KiwiSaver scheme, so I think people have voted with their feet and joined it. It has been a remarkably successful scheme, evidenced by the fact that it has grown so strongly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, in the last 2 years, the rate of growth of the value of savings in the scheme has not kept pace with its earlier growth, and that, I would suggest, is a direct reflection of the way the current Government has cheapened the scheme, giving its employer buddies a free ride by reducing the employer contributions, and thereby, strangely, putting relatively more of the weight of contribution on to the Crown and the taxpayer, and that is potentially threatening the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting that the Government has chosen a back-door Supplementary Order Paper to begin the next wave of tinkering with the KiwiSaver scheme. The KiwiSaver concept is up for discussion at the moment alongside other savings instruments in the context of the Savings Working Group, which is an academic group that has been brought together with heavily circumscribed terms of reference by the Minister of Finance, who says that it cannot look at compulsory savings or other things, but it can look at the opportunity costs of various ways of increasing the savings rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBefore going into that, and the impact this part will have on that, in a bit more detail, I just have one definitional comment about the word \u201Csavings\u201D. It has been overused at the moment by the Government. It contends that our recovery is not happening because New Zealand households and families are saving so much. Actually, that is a bit of a stretch of the definition. People are not consuming so much, because their real incomes are going down and they do not have as much to spend. Now, being broke is not the same as having stuff left over and putting it in the piggy bank. The piggy bank is dry. In fact, sometimes there is not food on the table. I just ducked out to go to the doctor for my throat infection, and do members know how much it was? It was $91. That is $91 for a general practitioner consultation. When Kiwi families are paying $91 to go to the general practitioner, I tell members, there will not be much left over for KiwiSaver or anything else. Who was it took caps off general practitioner fees? The current Government. So things are going to hell in a handbasket all around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOur worry, in short, is that the amendments in this part to KiwiSaver are the thin end of a bigger wedge. We are worried that this Government will take the hatchet to KiwiSaver in the same the way it has undermined the New Zealand Superannuation Fund by suspending pre-funding for a decade. We are very, very cautious about what will come out of the Savings Working Group, and why. I hold in my hand the report of the Tax Working Group that lay behind some of the rest of this gargantuan Supplementary Order Paper. The Government first set very tight terms of reference and then it proceeded to ignore most of the recommendations, picking and choosing the few it wanted. Of course, the burden of most of the Supplementary Order Paper was in relation to replacing the loss attributing qualifying company regime with new look-through companies, which are a slightly more tepid version of loss attributing qualifying companies, but which still allow people to write off income from a company against personal income. We question in these tough times whether the country can afford those kinds of avoidance opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EPart 5 has a range of clauses, like new clause 94B on the Supplementary Order Paper, which make technical amendments to the way KiwiSaver operates so that automatic entry rules will not apply. Well, automatic entry has been perhaps the single most important reason why so many people are in the KiwiSaver scheme, because once they start and pick up their Government contribution, then they get into a good savings habit. That is what real savings is; it is not just failing to consume because someone is short of money\u2014it is actual savings habits that build the wealth of the family and the nation going forward. We are very concerned, and we oppose new clause 94B, which starts to undermine those automatic enrolment rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a51e9b4c3c6f42cba606ec5ebc5e78b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a51e9b4c3c6f42cba606ec5ebc5e78b9\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u002296f515a743f84800a00a6ff98d24ddba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296f515a743f84800a00a6ff98d24ddba\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 5 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. Part 5, as the Hon David Cunliffe was saying, relates to amendments to the KiwiSaver Act 2006. The amendments in the bill have been scrutinised by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which is something. The amendments\u2014clauses 94 to 100C, which is \u201CSchedule 1\u2014KiwiSaver scheme rules\u201D\u2014relate to various provisions around the commissioner provisionally allocating people to default schemes, the completion of allocation to default schemes if a person does not choose his or her own KiwiSaver scheme, involuntary transfers, the sending of information, initial steps in winding up KiwiSaver schemes, and the like. That is what is in Part 5. Those amendments include allowing information to be shared between the Inland Revenue Department and a person\u2019s scheme provider, wind-up provisions that ensure full effect is given to that to clarify the date on which the member is allocated to a new scheme, a requirement for the scheme providers to supply the tax file number, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI was not on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but at least this bill was dealt with at the select committee. The Supplementary Order Paper makes changes to this part as well. Again, for the record, like my colleagues, I add my concerns that we have not had the ability to scrutinise the provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper. Taxation legislation is complicated, issues around superannuation are complicated, and these things need to be done properly. This is the sort of area where mistakes can be made and unintended consequences can occur, and we need to know the full implications of what is being proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that we do not trust the Government in relation to KiwiSaver, and on good grounds. We do not trust the Government in relation to KiwiSaver because the experience to date has shown that this Government does not have a commitment to KiwiSaver. Basically, the record so far in terms of KiwiSaver has been to gut it. That was one of the very early acts of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver, as we should all recall, was an important attempt by the last Government to lift private saving, lift household saving, and assist individuals to save for their superannuation. More than that, it was an attempt to provide a pool of private savings that would then be available for investment, including investment in this country, which is something that is very, very lacking. It is one of the structural weaknesses in this economy and in our country that we do not have a pool of money available for investment into our own businesses to ensure that we create quality jobs and provide the goods and services that we want as a nation. We have recently seen commentator Standard and Poor\u2019s, for example, talk about our problem with saving and our level of overseas indebtedness, particularly in the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWe need to deal with this weakness. It has taken a long time, but the Government seems to have finally latched onto that. What has it done? It has set up a Savings Working Group, but, of course, it did so after gutting KiwiSaver, which was a real attempt to do something about individual saving, household saving, and the pre-funding of New Zealand superannuation. These things are serious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EAs it happens, yesterday I went to a briefing by Dr Judith Davey about our ageing population, which adds another dimension to the importance of saving for superannuation. The Retirement Commissioner has just released a report on the issue of superannuation; this is a huge debate for us. The demographics are absolutely compelling in terms of our ageing population and the implications for the country in terms of the provision of superannuation. KiwiSaver was a very important part of the mix, which Labour feels very proud about, and we do not trust this Government in relation to KiwiSaver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI go back to Part 5 and the amendment to it in the rather large Supplementary Order Paper, which was dumped on this Committee and is now being dealt with in a very poor manner. We do not want to see the Government deal with this legislation under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab058b653f5444d499bed6a741533a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab058b653f5444d499bed6a741533a47\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc694dc868f6469bbdfa2b9e6bc0a923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc694dc868f6469bbdfa2b9e6bc0a923\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear one more, but I just say to members that this is the Committee stage. It is about the nuts and bolts of the bill. The presentations so far have been very wide ranging, and they should not include historical recounting of KiwiSaver or political positions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00224ef79d5a4cea4393b6cf8a6041a85961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ef79d5a4cea4393b6cf8a6041a85961\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will do my best to comply with your observation, Mr Chair. Of course, one of the difficulties we have had is that, with this bill going through under urgency and with an Supplementary Order Paper that is larger than the bill itself being dropped on the Committee, members of Parliament who have not sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee have not had the chance to go through it quite as thoroughly and forensically as they would like to. So we would dearly love to comply entirely with the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225990525adb0b4d0080dfe47e798f23fd\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s in the bill, then? We\u2019ve had enough of that, so what\u2019s in the bill, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebe120363ec4113b14c23dcbd0b2681\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Sandra Goudie pipes up from over there, and it is a great pleasure to hear her, because she has done nothing\u2014I was going to say all day, but in fact I think it is all year. I think she has not had anything to do all year. Now she squawks at the last minute, on a Friday\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b218046523423187f9054e3d464c39\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. In spite of the comments that you have just made in regard to speaking to the perimeters of the bill, the member has clearly flouted that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224171267cc5d646c4ad7969006011923c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, that is not a point of order. I am in the Chair and I will judge relevancy. Secondly, the member interjected, and invited a response. If the member wishes for the Hon Darren Hughes to keep on task, then let him keep on task. As we know, he is prone to a few distractions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d125fe3892404a8a5c7522567e5057\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The principle of cause and effect is well and truly alive in the Committee of the whole House today. I want to keep my comments limited almost exclusively to clause 100B, which, I say to Sandra Goudie, is on page 66 of the bill. The clause has the word \u201Ccontribution\u201D in it, which is not normally a word associated with her. But none the less there it is, at the top of the page: clause 100B, \u201CCrown contribution\u201D. This goes to quite a technical aspect of the KiwiSaver scheme, which is the inability of a member of the public who is in the workforce, and paying PAYE, to join the KiwiSaver scheme. I would like the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, to make a contribution and clarify the amendment to clause 100B\u2014and this is not part of the Supplementary Order Paper; it is part of the bill as reported back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014to substitute the words \u201Ca member\u201D with \u201Ca member before they reach the New Zealand superannuation qualification age\u201D. For the benefit of the Minister in the chair, I point out that this is at the top of page 66 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI think that goes to quite an interesting point about the scheme as it is in operation. At a time of enormous unemployment in New Zealand, when prices are rising faster than wages, the only economic sign of a glimmer of hope is in the numbers of people aged over 65 in the workforce. That group of workers is growing every time Statistics New Zealand, that very fine agency, reports on the make-up of the labour market. It is an interesting point. So where this connects right into clause 100B is that we have an increasing number of workers over the age of 65, but this clause prevents their membership of KiwiSaver even though they are taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to make a comment about that. Clearly, the Government has looked at that issue again. It was not part of the original KiwiSaver scheme. We know this Government has made a lot of changes to the original KiwiSaver Act. Part 5 sets out some additional changes to the 2006 legislation of the previous Labour Government, but this is another change on the issue of whether a member can remain in KiwiSaver as they turn 65 or whether they can decide to join when they are over the age of 65. So there has now been an overt policy decision from the Government, which has now worked its way through the process into clause 100B, and I would be very interested to know whether the Government ordered extra work to be done and made a decision to exclude those people from KiwiSaver. If clause 100B was not there, there would be alternative wording in respect of those who are eligible for the qualification age for New Zealand superannuation. But the insertion of clause 100B shows that there has been a decision not to extend the scheme. So if the Minister could perhaps go over that for us, it would be a very useful piece of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EPeople do say to us: \u201CLook, I\u2019m working 40 hours, I\u2019m paying tax, and, yes, I\u2019m claiming New Zealand superannuation. But I have paid taxes over 45 working years for that entitlement.\u201D In New Zealand we have a universal entitlement for superannuation. KiwiSaver is, of course, 8 percent of that person\u2019s wages, so they would be forfeiting, by choice, that money from their own salary or wages, whatever it might be, in order to be able to pay it into the scheme, and the tax credit that comes with it, arguably, is funded by the current PAYE that that person is paying on their income. So that Crown contribution through the tax credit includes, I presume, the $1,000 kick-start for people who join KiwiSaver. One of the attractions of the scheme is that people receive $1,000 immediately. That is a different form of Crown contribution. I think we want some clarification around clause 100B. In respect of a person over 65 who joins the scheme and pays in the 8 percent, they do not get the tax credit, but I am not sure whether they get the $1,000 kick-start. That could be an alternative approach for the Crown contribution that is made at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc0ce997afa543c0885a4d916a4822de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc0ce997afa543c0885a4d916a4822de\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221548c10869b84e878e8a34db161f9cad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000671\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d93431e12dd744e08e8f341889494b96\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c897c733340467a8a8464db98b7a7b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea625a81f49141ec98e8aa8f658f58ea\u0022\u003EPart 6  Amendments to Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022296bcb48758f45ffb7b4176c3be1895a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022296bcb48758f45ffb7b4176c3be1895a\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 6 is quite a narrow part. I would like to correct a mistake I made earlier when we were talking about Part 4. I said that it was the only part in this 57-page bill not to be touched by the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, but I stand corrected. Part 6 is also not touched by the Supplementary Order Paper. I wonder whether the Minister has something to table, because he has made considerable amendments to the rest of this bill and I suspect that perhaps he wants to make amendments to this part. It does not seem right that one or two clauses sit outside this Supplementary Order Paper, so that people have had the ability to debate them! I am being facetious; I apologise for that. I must admit that this process borders on the ridiculous a little bit. As a New Zealander, let alone as a member of Parliament, I find it a little insulting that again we are standing here debating a tax bill that has gone through a very rigorous process, only to have a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper lumped before us. I do not think that is how New Zealanders want tax legislation passed in this Parliament\u2014in fact, I know it is not what they expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI come back to clauses 102 and 103. These are basically technical amendments concerning the approved issuer levy. I will give a little bit of background. Recently concluded tax treaties with Australia and New Zealand include a new exemption from source country tax for interest derived by banks. For interest derived from New Zealand, the availability of this exemption depends on the borrower paying the approved issuer levy, unless the borrower is not eligible to elect to pay the levy, there is no such levy, or the rate of the levy exceeds 2 percent of gross payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI know this sounds rather technical, and it is rather technical. It is a technical amendment, but I think it is very important because it concerns banks and tax treaties. New Zealanders need to know about anything that concerns banks. It needs to be out there. Anything that concerns tax treaties is most important as well. As we know, under this Government a lot of New Zealanders are deciding to up and leave. The details of tax treaties between New Zealand and other nations need to be available. If they decide to read the treaties that go on between our wonderful country and the country they are travelling to, they should be able to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe proposed amendments in clauses 102 and 103 clarify the circumstances in which a person is eligible to pay the approved issuer levy. They make it clear that a borrower can pay the approved issuer levy in order to qualify for an exemption under a double tax agreement. I must admit that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has seen a lot of double tax agreements come before it recently. My colleague the Hon David Cunliffe will have something to say about this bit. He has put a lot of work and effort in with the Inland Revenue Department to make sure that the information before the select committee with regard to double tax agreements is robust. I know he has had some concerns, and I am sure he will talk about them when he takes a call on this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThese amendments will address uncertainty around the treatment of interest paid to foreign banks operating through a branch in New Zealand. We know that apart from Kiwibank, the major banks are foreign-owned. I have a mortgage with a foreign-owned bank. I should have had it with Kiwibank, but I must admit that the Westpac guys who came up to Wairoa did an absolutely fantastic job in dealing with workers there and getting stuff out of KiwiSaver. I take my hat off to them. Their community relations were very, very good, and I just put that out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned, these amendments will address uncertainty. There is no doubt about it: if there is one thing that should not exist in tax law, it is uncertainty. Tax law needs to be certain. Taxpayers need to know the difference between right and wrong, and I am sure the commissioner will agree with that. The last thing he wants to do is put out a whole lot of rulings. We know what happens when there is uncertainty in tax legislation. We saw it recently. The banks ended up paying about $2 billion, I think, when they believed they knew the tax law, while the commissioner believed that the tax law said something else. It went through various courts in this land, and the commissioner was right. It shows what happens when we have ambiguity in tax legislation. Clauses 102 and 103 remove that level of ambiguity, which is great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe interest that I was talking about is not subject to non-resident withholding tax, so the approved issuer levy mechanism is not relevant domestically, which is good to know. It is not relevant domestically. But the new treaty exemption could still apply if the loan was made from offshore instead of through a New Zealand branch. I suspect that in these tough economic times a lot of the big companies are looking for finance outside of the New Zealand domestic market. The reason I say that is that if members look at our interest rates, they will see that they are quite high compared with those of a lot of our competitors. A lot of businesses are sourcing funds offshore at much lower interest rates\u2014that is, if they have the ability to do so; a lot of small to medium enterprises do not have the ability to do so, but a lot of big companies do. Again, these amendments clarify tax legislation around this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMore generally, the amendments ensure a better fit between terminology used in relevant tax treaties and arrangements whereby a borrower chooses to pay the approved issuer levy under domestic law. The new treaty provisions ask specifically whether the borrower is eligible to elect to pay the approved issuer levy; this bill ensures that domestic law directly addresses this question. Again, the changes come back to the whole point of clarity, but also they come back to the point of responsibility. Every taxpayer\u2014whether an actual person, a small company, a trust, a portfolio investment entity, or a huge corporate\u2014must act in a responsible way when it comes to paying their tax. This puts the responsibility back on them. The Inland Revenue Department asks whether an entity is eligible to pay the approved issuer levy. As has been mentioned, the amendments will ensure that domestic law directly addresses this question, which is most important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe amendments are also intended to make the existing law more transparent, and I suppose that is the reason why we are still debating this bill in the Committee stage at this point. We need a level of transparency in tax legislation. Transparency is vital if we are to get our tax legislation passed in a way that is robust and that really adds to the overall legislative programme. The reason I say this and the reason I have concerns about this is we have seen with this Supplementary Order Paper\u2014in my view and, I think, the view of my colleagues and the Greens\u2014that this is not a transparent process. We cannot have a 57-page bill go through an intensive select committee process and then suddenly have a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper rapped on the Table. That is not transparent. In this bill clauses 102 and 103, which are technical amendments on the approved issuer levy, provide a level of transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EClauses 102 and 103 went through the Finance and Expenditure Committee and we debated them. Our expert adviser, Ms Turner, provided notes to us on them, and we queried the Inland Revenue Department officials on the implications of the approved issuer levy. It got to a point where we understood it and we were very clear about it from a layperson\u2019s perspective and from a technical perspective, so we can stand up with a working knowledge of the approved issuer levy. Those clauses went through a very robust process, so we are happy that they get passed with this bill. It is just such a shame that a Supplementary Order Paper larger than this bill has not been through that transparent process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, clauses 102 and 103 are intended to make the existing law more transparent rather than substantially alter its effect. Not much has changed. These amendments are technical, so not much has changed except a level of transparency, and we all demand that. I think it is very reasonable for taxpayers to expect a level of transparency. I do not think there would be any question, doubt, or argument about the necessity for transparency in any sort of legislation, let alone tax legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIt is not considered necessary for the amendments to apply retrospectively, because they do not alter the law substantially. We talked at the select committee for a moment about whether those amendments should apply retrospectively. It was decided that we should probably not apply clauses 102 or 103 retrospectively, because they are only technical. We are not changing the substance; we are creating a level of transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00221008d08acd11418e9f3b2110ab56bd95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221008d08acd11418e9f3b2110ab56bd95\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call or two on clauses 102 and 103 in Part 6 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230363319bc924f3db9ae1221e4e0ccef\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What about 101?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264fde88f90e94ac38a79f6c5578a5228\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not sure it is in Part 6, but I am particularly focused on clauses 102 and 103 if it is all right with my colleague. I say it is my right to be focused on whatever clauses I jolly well want. I think Mr Mallard is angling for a job as a whip. But he is doing his job pretty well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022def425bd97464f32ac268f6f84f91e0b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He wants Gerry\u2019s job!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc00dfee92df4078a8eea7766db510c2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that brings to mind the question that has fascinated philosophers for many, many years. If Gerry Brownlee is the third-smartest guy in the National Party\u2014I need not finish the sentence. In fact, the reason we are all here enjoying our time together in the Chamber is twofold: firstly, the abhorrent Supplementary Order Paper amending the bill, and, secondly, the organisational genius of said Gerry Brownlee, who has completely mishandled the Order Paper by dumping a huge, huge collection of bills on it, and this is only No 2. This is only the second bill up. Members opposite will be here all weekend, I fear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, back to clauses 102 and 103. What is interesting about these clauses, which amend sections 86I and 86L of the Stamp and Cheques Duties Act 1971, is that they are amended to introduce references to an exemption under a double tax agreement. Those relate to the non-resident withholding tax rules of the Income Tax Act 2007. The context is that we have recently concluded double tax treaties with Australia and the United States, which include a new exemption from source company tax for interest derived by banks. Together with clause 79 those clauses clarify the circumstances in which a person is eligible to pay the approved issuer levy, as my colleague Mr Nash has just said. They make it clear that the borrower can pay approved issuer levies in order to qualify for an exemption under a double tax agreement, even if paying the levy makes no difference to the way the transaction is dealt with under domestic law. That clarifies an uncertainty that existed when the double tax agreement was written, and that brings us right to a very, very important point. The process by which the underlying double tax agreements have been negotiated and brought through the House is itself deeply flawed, and I will explain why in a minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere is a huge irony in having to introduce by stealth a massive amendment, part of which, by Supplementary Order Paper that has not gone to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, is to correct mistakes or ambiguities in double tax agreements that supposedly had them. Our Labour team argued consistently in the Finance and Expenditure Committee that the process of examination of double tax agreements is fundamentally flawed. It is flawed because there is an oxymoron called a national interest analysis. Why do I say it is an oxymoron? It is neither national nor a good definition of interests, nor is there much analytical content. These tend to be once-over-lightly narrative descriptions of the treaty that has been under negotiation. They are brought to the committee late in the process, after the negotiation has concluded and before the agreement is ratified by the House. But when members of Parliament in a select committee ask difficult and searching questions about the balance of interest in the double tax agreement, we receive a stock of standard responses. The first one is not to bother our pretty little heads about it, because it has already been done and dusted and it would be improper to intervene. Well, I am sorry, but that is not what the Standing Orders prescribe. The Standing Orders very explicitly prescribe for a detailed and rigorous select committee examination under about a dozen different subclauses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0acf87255c47468e844854037029a7\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: What has this got to do with 102 and 103?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec43daa08864f2c94257c6d04401164\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: These clauses are amending ambiguities that arose in the Australian and United States double tax treaties, which went through the same committee this should have gone through, but which did not receive thorough enough examination, for exactly the reasons I am about to go on and describe. Now what were those reasons? What are the flaws? The member opposite has asked for more detail, and he is a senior member, he is the senior Government whip, and I try my best to obey whips. We are just getting to the interesting part now that Chris Tremain has requested more detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe first of, I think, four key structural defects in the process of consideration of double tax agreements is that there are supposedly network effects. That is, we are told by our officials that it makes no sense to consider one double tax agreement in isolation from a whole spectrum of double tax agreements of neighbouring or related countries. Yet they are brought to the committee often one at a time. How could the committee and how could Parliament possibly offer proper scrutiny of one double tax agreement when it supposedly makes sense only as part of a network? There is supposedly some separate headline negotiation or analysis that covers the whole system. It is just that it is not visible to Parliament and it does not come to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe second point is that there is a lack of data. Let me give a very good example, not in relation to the double tax agreement covered by this clause but by one very similar\u2014the New Zealand - Singapore closer economic partnership agreement. That agreement was described by officials as being likely to reduce New Zealand\u2019s trade in goods but to expand its trade in services and its investment opportunities. Well, that is a perfectly reasonable trade-off to make, but guess what? The New Zealand department of statistics does not record data for trade in services, or investment flows, in sufficient detail to answer the question, in the rear-view mirror, of whether we have come out ahead. So 3 or 4 years after this Parliament passed the New Zealand - Singapore closer economic partnership agreement, it cannot even now undertake the analysis to find out whether the New Zealand taxpayer, the New Zealand economy, is better off or worse off, because the New Zealand Government does not collect the statistics that would enable that analysis to occur. I find that absolutely amazing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHowever, it gets better\u2014or worse. Even if we had the data, we should not expect anybody in officialdom to have crunched it, because the national interest analyses are an analysis-free zone\u2014an analysis-free zone. They are narrative descriptions of \u201CWe trade this bit for that bit. We think we might be better off.\u201D OK, \u201CTell us why you think that.\u201D You know, there are no numbers, typically, in a national interest analysis on a double tax agreement such as those covered by clauses 102 and 103. Well, that is ridiculous. How can it be an analysis if it is qualitative on a tax treaty? Or in one that I recall, it was an upfront loss of tax of $20 million. That was the cost side. On the benefit side, there was supposedly a qualitative compliance cost reduction. \u201CWell, how big is it?\u201D, we asked. \u201CCan\u2019t tell you.\u201D, said the officials. \u201CWell, is it bigger than or less than $20 million?\u201D, we asked. \u201CCan\u2019t tell you.\u201D, said the officials. \u201CWhy can\u2019t you tell us?\u201D, asked the members of Parliament, \u201CIs it a secret?\u201D. \u201CWell,\u201D they said, \u201Cthere are two problems with that\u201D\u2014and that brings us to the fourth of the four reasons why these clauses are an embarrassment for the Government. Not only is there a network effect, a lack of data, and a lack of analysis, but also, hey presto, there is a lack of process, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe lack of process is that there is no point in the chain of the negotiation where the essence of the negotiation is able to be subject to sufficient public scrutiny, because the Government negotiators go in secret to negotiate with the negotiators of the other party. They do not bring the bill to Parliament until after it is negotiated, which is fair enough, but no tracking analysis is brought to the select committee. It is brought to the select committee for analysis only after the negotiations are completed. When on one occasion we found a clear example where the negotiation had come out badly for New Zealand, we were told: \u201CYou can\u2019t say that.\u201D \u201CWhy couldn\u2019t we say it?\u201D, we asked. \u201CBecause we don\u2019t want the other side to know they won.\u201D In another example where it came out very well for New Zealand, and the public would have wanted to know, we were told: \u201CYou can\u2019t say that.\u201D \u201CWhy not?\u201D, we asked. \u201CBecause we don\u2019t want the other side to know they lost.\u201D \u201CThen why are we doing this?\u201D, we asked. We were told: \u201CBecause you have to.\u201D, and we said: \u201CWell, shouldn\u2019t it be meaningful?\u201D. And here we are today, in Parliament, under urgency, on Christmas Eve, now re-correcting clauses 102 and 103, because they were not done properly the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002241f89177075649e484b23113bf145fe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241f89177075649e484b23113bf145fe9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229ceccf5744c8481b9f66b7c1c2a520f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ceccf5744c8481b9f66b7c1c2a520f5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to talk to Part 6 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which is clauses 101, 102, and 103. The biggest part of it is clause 102, and it is likely that there will be a reasonable amount of focus on that clause. These are amendments to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971. Stamp and cheque duty was much more important in 1971 than it is currently, because it was both a method of revenue collection and a policy tool. It was used as an intervention to head the economy in particular directions, and I think it is fair to say that continued through until about 1984. Since 1971 there have been a number of changes. For example, there has been a lot of work in the area of double tax agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe focus in clause 102 is on the approved issuer levy and the effect on what is liable for stamp and cheque duty in regard to it. The new section 86I, which is to be substituted in the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act by clause 102, indicates in subsection (2) that despite the non-residential withholding tax rules, a payment of interest under a registered security is treated as having been paid by an approved issuer only to the extent to which the approved issuer levy in relation to the security is paid by, or on behalf of, the approved issuer. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, why that is the case. I would have thought there was an obligation to have it paid in full. I know that this Minister is not the primary Minister in charge of stamp duty and related matters, but I wonder about the question of liability for the part that has not been paid. Where an issuer levy should have been paid but has not been paid, I ask whether there is still an obligation for stamp and cheque duty to be paid in that case. I do not mind if there is a nod or a wink from the Minister in the chair to indicate what the particular approach is. Of course, I would prefer it if she took a call on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis is a serious question. If an issuer levy that should have been paid has not been paid, I ask whether there is still a liability for taxation on it. If someone has income that has not yet been received under our accrual system, I ask whether the tax is payable on it. We have moved away from the days when the Chair was involved in some of these matters, and we do not work entirely on a receipts and payments basis now. We have an accrual system, and we work on the basis of income and expenditure. But it appears that there is some reversion to a receipts and payments approach, rather than having an accrual system and an income and expenditure basis, in this particular case. I want to know whether that is an accurate characterisation of what is occurring here. Is this something that is new, or is it something that has been there? I ask this because we cannot tell by looking at the amendment and by looking back at the legislation as to whether that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI then go to clause 102, which inserts new section 86I. I might need to correct myself, as I think I might have said \u201Csection 86(1)\u201D earlier. But it is section 86I, so I think I need to put my glasses on. Subsection (2)(b) of that section states: \u201Cthe amount of the levy, based on the leviable value of the registered security at the time of the payment of the interest, is paid\u2014(i) at the rate set out in section 86J; and\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00223385dddcca974d5f95f1a4bccca79080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223385dddcca974d5f95f1a4bccca79080\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022508940f96c3c4e1ab6fbd37375d60139\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022508940f96c3c4e1ab6fbd37375d60139\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on Part 6 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which concerns amendments to stamp and cheque duties. The first thing I will do is commend the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts, for the fact that this part has no relationship to the onerous 70-page Supplementary Order Paper 187, which was made available to us parliamentarians in only the last 48 to 50 hours. What this part relates to has at least been through the appropriate process in terms of consideration by the Finance and Expenditure Committee of all the changes that the Government was seeking to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThese changes relate to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971, which is a period not familiar to some members, and reference an exemption under a double tax agreement. The history of that, as some members will know, is that the recently concluded tax treaties with Australia and also with the United States include a new exemption from source-country tax for interest derived by banks, so, together with clause 79 in this bill, clauses 102 and 103 clarify the circumstances in which someone is eligible to pay an approved issuer levy. The approved issuer levies make it clear that a borrower can pay the levy in order to qualify for the exemptions under the double tax agreement, even if paying the levy makes no difference to the way in which the transaction is dealt with under domestic law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESo this measure addresses some uncertainty that exists around the treatment of interest paid to foreign banks operating through a branch here in New Zealand. It is an appropriate move, but I ask the Minister in the chair to take a call to relate to us the difference between the stamp duty regime here and those in other parts of the world. I am particularly interested to know about Australia\u2019s. I understand that stamp duty still applies to property there, and at quite a high level. I believe that it is up to about 2 percent or more in some Australian states. It will be interesting to know whether the Government has ever given any consideration to that issue in terms of any of the tax changes it is bringing through in the course of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe approved issuer levy is a domestic law mechanism that can provide relief from the non-resident withholding tax on interest paid. The non-resident withholding tax on interest paid to an unrelated foreign member can be reduced to nil if the borrower agrees to pay a 2 percent levy. Borrowers agree to do this where the lender would simply demand more interest to cover the non-resident withholding tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe have those newish treaties in place now\u2014tax treaties with Australia and the United States. They are a good thing. They make it easier for businesses to operate across the Tasman, and across the Pacific through to the United States. Goodness knows, we need businesses to be better able to operate in what has been the most difficult business environment in living memory. We want to see the tax treaties with Australia and with the United States operate at the best possible level, to ensure that businesses are able to operate efficiently and effectively without any extra costs attached. So what this measure does is include an exemption from source-country tax for interest derived by banks. For interest derived from New Zealand the availability of the exemption depends on the borrower paying the approved issuer levy, unless the borrower is not eligible to pay the levy, or there is no such levy, or the rate exceeds 2 percent of gross payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThese proposed amendments attempt to clarify the circumstances in which someone is able to pay the approved issuer levy. They make them clear, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee considered these issues in some detail. That is how the process should be. When we are dealing with issues as complex as these we need to focus on them in the select committee, rather than their being passed by way of a Supplementary Order Paper. These are complex matters. They can relate to large sums of money in which New Zealand has a very keen interest. Obviously, we want to make sure that when we introduce technical amendments of this type we do so in the most appropriate fashion. That is done here in Part 6, where clauses 101, 102, and 103 introduce amendments in relation to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971. That is the appropriate place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002206a5d4bc931c4e50abbc27ade35b2844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206a5d4bc931c4e50abbc27ade35b2844\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a12f560fca364c4c933087c07befc6db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a12f560fca364c4c933087c07befc6db\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have not participated in this debate, but after coming down to the Chamber, listening to the discussion, and looking at the bill\u2014and I acknowledge the good work my colleagues are doing here\u2014I will take a call on Part 6. The bill states that its intentions are to remove tax avoidance opportunities, to have better alignment, to maintain the integrity and fairness of the goods and services tax, and, obviously, here in Part 6, to make some amendments to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI was recently in Victoria in Australia. A previous speaker in this debate said that he understood that stamp duties in Australia are quite significant but he was not sure of the amount. My understanding is that if one sells a house in Victoria the stamp duty is either 4 or 5 percent and it is paid directly to the state Government. That is in the land of opportunity, the wonderful country that this Government has chosen to compare us to. The Prime Minister has said on many, many occasions that we have to step up and match Australia. Well, here is an opportunity to align with Australia. I do not think that anyone, and certainly not the Labour Party, would advocate the introduction of a 5 percent stamp duty on the sale of property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have a question, and it is one that the Finance and Expenditure Committee could have teased out if it had had the time to go through this bill. How can Victoria, in Australia, the country we have to aspire to match, have stamp duty of 5 percent and still maintain a high level of income and a high level of economic activity, and, indeed, to choose the Prime Minister\u2019s words, be a better place to live? That is what the Prime Minister has said on many occasions. He has said that that is what we should be looking for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn relation to non-resident withholding tax and the alignment with Australia, my colleagues have said that we must align with Australia as much as possible so that we remove the distortions, and I think that most of us have accepted that that is a good direction in which to move. What, then, is the issue of stamp duty in terms of its impact on the relative prosperity of either country? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? We have been told that less tax is always good, except that this Government has put up taxes in a whole lot of areas. It has not just increased GST but also it has put up taxes on petrol and charges for vehicle registration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu\u2014should she choose to take a call\u2014to tell us how the amendments to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act will bring about an alignment between Australia and New Zealand. How is it that Australia can have such high stamp duties, as well as GST and a whole lot of other things, and still be better off than New Zealand? Will the changes we are making in this legislation, and in the rushed Supplementary Order Paper, make a significant improvement to the tax regime or to the way we operate the system in this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI will not say any more than that, other than to say that it is a question I asked a few weeks ago in Australia. I have now had the opportunity to ask the Minister. Perhaps she could take a call and tell us. Maybe she does not know, or maybe she might acknowledge that the select committee might have found out. But, of course, we are rushing this legislation through unnecessarily. I am sure that the changes in Part 6 will be amended in the very near future, because we are not going through this in a thorough way. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002266fb57ef57404e05b9e389e0fa7e7729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266fb57ef57404e05b9e389e0fa7e7729\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224aff30e1c8d1493087dca39d0d014390\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285b36a0be3ee4d1db70c9cd72e7cc08f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6b583676a0b45f0afdc3ae8f3d9bd1f\u0022\u003EPart 7  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002245027bc60c0c46abb66efc233c5e7866\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245027bc60c0c46abb66efc233c5e7866\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on this part includes the schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022883bcdba882c4fcdbe0e1a4c44f1d3a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022883bcdba882c4fcdbe0e1a4c44f1d3a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da31856cf3c45a69e44457e15545345\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: This is one of the biggest parts of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a33eaa08e742f3af41971ce60faa62\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Part 7 is a particularly important part of the bill. It is particularly important because it reflects the process that has gone on so far. This is a grab bag. It is entitled \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D. How non-specific can we possibly get as to the title of a part\u2014\u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D? That reflects the shambles of a process that is embodied in this bill. The Government could have done the normal, generic tax policy process, but it chose not to. It could have given the bill the benefit of a standard select committee consideration, but it chose not to. It could have allowed practitioners in the industry, such as the lawyers and the accountants, to make formal public submissions, along with affected businesses and members of the public, but it chose not to. Government members could have subjected themselves to the cross-examination of members on this side of the Chamber, but they chose not to. Instead, they have chosen to bring to the Chamber a Supplementary Order Paper that dwarfs the original bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EPart 7 is contained in the original bill, not in the Supplementary Order Paper, but it is a grab bag of miscellaneous clauses that reflect the general state of disarray of this legislative process. The first one is clause 105, which covers deductions from joint bank accounts under the amendment to the Gaming Duties Act. This clause, together with clauses 16 and 86, allows deductions of tax from payments due to a defaulting taxpayer. They are amended to allow the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to make deductions of tax from joint bank accounts. The amendments will allow deductions from a joint bank account if the defaulting taxpayer can make withdrawals from that account without the signature of the other person. What that means, in plain language, is that if someone has a joint account and one member has defaulted, then the commissioner can allow deductions to occur without the consent of the other party. That is certainly improving the reach of the tax department. It does raise the odd issue about whether the privacy of another person is involved, but I guess that is the price of having a joint account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EClause 106, which covers provisional tax relief for the super-city transition, is a matter of some considerable importance because this is the tax implication of the new structure of the super-city. It is specifically designed to accommodate the fact that most of the business of the super-city is not going on at council level; it is going on at the council-controlled organisation level. That has required entirely new tax provisions between the council-controlled organisation and the parent council. This clause amends section 83 of the Local Government (Auckland Transitional Provisions) Act 2010, which provides transitional tax relief on the amalgamation of the local authorities into one council. It provides, for the purposes of the financial arrangement rules in the Income Tax Act 2007, that where the new Auckland Council enters into an acknowledgment of debt with a council-controlled organisation without paying the principal to the council-controlled organisation, the council is deemed to have advanced the amount of the principal to the council-controlled organisation. That is, it is deemed to have advanced the amount, even if it does not actually make a new loan, because it is inheriting a debit from a previous structure. It is probably one of the more sensible provisions in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAs part of the super-city restructuring, certain assets owned by existing local authorities will vest in council-controlled organisations owned by the Auckland Council. There is no problem with that. It is sensible enough. The issue at stake is the balance\u2014of course, this is old territory\u2014of authority and oversight between the parent council and the plethora of council-controlled organisations into which most of the activities of the new council have been devolved. It is of great cheer to this side of the Chamber to see that the new mayor, \u201CAuck-Len\u201D, has ensured good transparency at the council-controlled organisation board level by insisting on the publication of board papers. The New Zealand Herald yesterday of course revealed a very good summary of the first round of board meetings, the notable exception being the transport council-controlled organisation, which saw fit to have its first meeting entirely in secret and not publish any of its papers. So we have the paradox that the largest, most important council-controlled organisation has been hitherto conducting its arrangements in secret. That is not acceptable, and I am very, very pleased that the new Mayor of Auckland, Len Brown, has been able to gently persuade the transport council-controlled organisation board that the expectations of the public of Auckland are for a maximum degree of transparency. So that is excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are some debt implications that are tidied up in these clauses. In clause 106, the debt relating to the assets owned by local authorities vested in council-controlled organisations will not be transferred to the council-controlled organisations but will be assumed by the Auckland Council. In turn, the council-controlled organisations will then enter into an acknowledgment of debt to the council for the amount of debt attributable to the assets. That is interesting. In fact, despite the locus of control being vested in the board of the council-controlled organisation, the debt is vested in the council. To members on this side of the Chamber this just smells slightly familiar\u2014the old right-wing tendency to socialise the losses and the risks and to privatise the profits. That is exactly what has happened in the global financial crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225195ae95312466c8227b2a2458d3936\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Seen that before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddbdd01234474e9390028febeed11ee6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The taxpayer around the world has had to underwrite the huge bonuses made by the crocodile shoe brigade on Wall Street. It is an outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209797cbe001c4bb0a162aef4e493d3cb\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t call the Prime Minister that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd13b28f56a4e3990f340ed6c0b8505\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221637fd1f6122419fb655fb3dda46d381\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What would have happened otherwise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225126333dfb7742ca8d4fa5572bb7bc64\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if there had been a decent regulatory framework, we would never have had the level of bonuses paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa8660b4c9d487b9f8ab05e9f16b6ce\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: No, what would Governments have done otherwise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9bc335e6dc14783af4f98bad1b7df71\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is bipartisan that we have had retail\u2014[Interruption] If the member has asked a question, he should have the courtesy to listen to the response. There was bipartisan support for having a retail and wholesale deposit guarantee scheme, before the current Government blew it and extended the retail scheme without sufficient clarity of oversight, as\u2014I have a good bottle of wine resting on this one\u2014it is now going to blow the budget for the underwrite. It is going to blow the budget for the underwrite because not only has it turned down a really good recapitalisation proposal on South Canterbury Finance\u2014and it is going to end up paying a whole lot more by the time it has brought the asset sales to book\u2014but it has had Equitable Mortgages, another $180 million - odd, which has been deliberately put into receivership by the owners before it is anywhere near insolvent. When asked why they did it, they said: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to take the risk.\u201D It was the closest thing I have ever seen to an admission by a private board that it suited their shareholders for the taxpayer to bear the risk. It was extraordinary. Yet the Government did not bat an eyelid. It did not even ask the question of whether that was ultra vires to the purposes of the retail deposit guarantee scheme. If Dr Hutchison would like me to go on, I could probably spend two or three calls examining the details of the scheme a little more fully, but I think he probably wants to get home some time tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c013f0c5f274fe7ae006692d8b42279\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No, on Monday!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae96a019c1740cb8d60a703d699bdc0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It could be Monday. Let me move on to section EW 3(2). In this provision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e511ed0a2ec348488dd8b8f1a02712f1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Bring on the detail!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022417378513b4b47a7ac37a467a32628df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is it not interesting that Mr Brownlee, the Leader of the House, has not taken a call? We could argue about whether he is in the Chamber; I could not possibly comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c357a8cf4a24e1399ef5556cd881187\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Members cannot refer to the absence of a member. The member should know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dc259726ed247a5813c0acea008c1ce\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In which case, I will not refer to it, Mr Chairman; you are quite right. The general definition of financial arrangements in section EW 3(2) does not apply to the acknowledgment of debt, because no consideration is paid by the council to the council-controlled organisation, and therefore there is no consideration violating standard practice contract law that a contract is not a contract until consideration has been exchanged, and that an agreement to agree is not an agreement in law until such consideration has vested. So here we are, in the dead of the afternoon the week before Christmas, under urgency, doing what? We are overriding a bill making perfectly sensible but necessary tidy-up amendments that was agreed by consensus in the Finance and Expenditure Committee by every party in the House. We had consensus on those points until the Minister brought into the House an 80-page Supplementary Order Paper, which is far more important than the main bill. The main bill was just a tractor put on the trailer. All the hay is in the trailer; it is in the Supplementary Order Paper. The committee did not have the opportunity to investigate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022607dde38e317401fbcc311714fca1c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022607dde38e317401fbcc311714fca1c56\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would like for you to rule, please, as to whether clause 109 in Part 7 of the original legislation, as reported by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, is, in fact, within the vires. It is headed \u201CConsequential amendments to Inland Revenue Acts: ACC change\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMy point is that I have searched back through the bill\u2014I have not, to be fair, searched through the Supplementary Order Paper, but I think that is probably not relevant\u2014and the clause states: \u201CThe provisions in the enactments listed in the schedule are amended by replacing \u2018Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act 2001\u2019 by \u2018Accident Compensation Act 2001\u2019.\u201D There is no doubt that that Act has changed, but the point I am making is that this is not a consequential amendment on the legislation we are dealing with, and therefore it cannot be a consequential amendment flowing out of it. I ask you to rule that clause 109 be struck from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9adab5d9a544a2c85841d7ac0b7fb3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9adab5d9a544a2c85841d7ac0b7fb3e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That is an interesting question from the member. The Parliamentary Counsel Office has drafted this clause into the bill as \u201CConsequential amendments to the Inland Revenue Acts: ACC Change\u201D. If the Committee is not of a mind to support that clause, it can vote it down when we come to vote on this particular part. That is the opportunity to vote accordingly if one does not agree with it. The Parliamentary Counsel Office has included it, which can happen. It is up to members whether to support it, and they will vote accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002234906f43a0ba40ef988ffacad37c1b2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234906f43a0ba40ef988ffacad37c1b2c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise, in part, for disagreeing with your ruling, and certainly the rationale behind it. The fact that the Parliamentary Counsel Office has included something in a bill probably, in fact, should not be referred to by members in the Committee. The responsibility for the bill is the Minister\u2019s\u2014currently that of the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts\u2014and the Government has to take responsibility for it. It is not a question of whether the Committee agrees with it; the question is whether it is within the vires of the bill. My clear submission to you is that this provision cannot be consequential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226c7a0cc26de64d93bef1bf9473583890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c7a0cc26de64d93bef1bf9473583890\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The provision is in the bill as presented. It has been through a select committee, and it has been deliberated on. It is not an amendment; it is actually in Part 7 of the original bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64732cee5bd4d41bdffe6f106d8b2fd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce6d7cdcde64290ab92c711a2461600\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: My point is that it has been in the bill from day one. It has been accepted in a first reading, a second reading, and the select committee process, and it is contained here. As I said, if the member is not happy with it, or if a party is not happy with it, they have the opportunity to vote the provision down. I made the point about the consequential amendment earlier on: it is a consequential amendment to other particular Acts, and they are actually mentioned here. It is in order; it is just like the other amendments throughout the bill. It is within the scope of the bill. That is my ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d836c7cf213e466f9c115da4944d995e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d836c7cf213e466f9c115da4944d995e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I think Mr Mallard is not pointing to a policy disagreement, in which your ruling would be correct. Members of the Committee vote things up or down depending on their political view about the policy merits of a clause. I think Mr Mallard is trying in a dispassionate way to make the point that there has been an error in the technicality of the way the bill has been prepared. That is not a policy matter. The fact is that this error has just been discovered in a very big bill, and tax bills are very technical. He has pointed out the fact that that error has been discovered only now. Just because it received a first and second reading and select committee consideration, and was not discovered at that point, does not change the fact that the structure of the bill before us now is not in a technically correct form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen it is technically correct, then we will return to our policy debate. In fact, that is the whole point of the Committee of the whole House, which often finds something that is lost during this part of the process. This is the detail. You will recall that up until a few years ago the Committee of the whole House took a bill clause by clause. It went through it clause by clause in order to make sure that proper consideration be given and any errors found. We now take bills part by part, and perhaps Mr Mallard has shown that by taking it part by part there is the opportunity for these things to be missed, which did not happen when it was a clause by clause assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Committee of the whole House is to scrutinise a bill in detail. Ninety-nine percent of the time there will be policy differences, and we have seen those argued out today. He is not making a policy point; he is pointing out a technical problem with the construct of the actual legislation. I think it would be wrong for us to continue until we have that problem corrected, so we can return to the policy debates we need to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002243fbb755bbdb4faf986a1c083138f7b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243fbb755bbdb4faf986a1c083138f7b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that the points of order, which are hardly points of order, are actually incorrect in substance. This bill, of itself, amends a particular Inland Revenue Act, the Goods and Services Tax Act, and, indeed, other Acts as well. The schedule relates to the Inland Revenue Acts, per se, and thus it is appropriate that clause 109 amends Inland Revenue Acts\u2014or more accurately, amends schedules to Inland Revenue Acts, which is entirely within the scope of the bill. Frankly, I think we know what we are seeing with these particular points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00225964f4faa88048e48f970ab01fe1c4f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225964f4faa88048e48f970ab01fe1c4f0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E It might be something that can be fixed up relatively easily, because I think most of us are aware that the headers, in fact, do not end up in the legislation going forward. Clause 109 deals with \u201CConsequential amendments to Inland Revenue Acts: ACC change\u201D, and when the Inland Revenue Acts listed in the schedule\u2014the Income Tax Act 2007, the Tax Administration Act, the Goods and Services Tax Act, and KiwiSaver Act\u2014are amended, these headings will not flow into the Acts. I do not think anything would be lost if, by the leave of the Committee, we just took out the inaccurate part of the headers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed81782b45324ecc95634a273473c5c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed81782b45324ecc95634a273473c5c6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a committed clause and this is an omnibus bill. It makes amendments across all Inland Revenue Acts, as has been identified. I said earlier that it was within the scope of the bill. If it was outside the scope it would have been ruled out of order at a first reading or subsequently at a second reading. The Speaker would have ruled it out as being outside the scope and not being part of the bill. The title that we have here, the way it is presented\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227804bc35af794278bb07e9747301130a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It can\u2019t be ruled out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0fe5f971077481eb728dbda5da01b92\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It can be ruled out at an earlier stage. As I mentioned, it has been through a first reading, it has been to the select committee, it has had a second reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5cb022b66e4f649b1019cecec23bbc\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Speaker ruled on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b702d1d4f34875b629812992de87f7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: It is in order, and I am ruling that it is in order as presented. We will continue on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002237e01df4a7024357b9973e28a39aba1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e01df4a7024357b9973e28a39aba1d\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk for a moment about clause 106 of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, which effectively relates to providing some provisional tax relief in the super-city transition in Auckland. I have a question that arises from it, which perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, or her learned colleague the Minister of Defence, may be able to assist me with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI do not think any member would have any difficulty about transitional tax relief being provided in the amalgamation of local authorities in Auckland into one council, when we are seeing an arrangement whereby an acknowledgment of debt is entered into by the council in relation to assets held by, effectively, another arm of the council. That is a wholly appropriate thing. But just a couple of weeks ago the House passed the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill, which contained within it a provision that allows any council, should it wish, to enter into a new arrangement, I think from 2012 or 2014, for the provision of services such as water on a contractual basis for a period of up to 35 years. Members on this side of the Chamber view that as effectively constituting privatisation, given the length of time involved. There is the ability for those assets to go into private hands, with a return, yes, to ratepayers\u2019 ownership at the end of the 35-year period. But 35 years is a long, long time between drinks, so we regard that as being, effectively, privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EClause 106 relates to allowing arrangements around the acknowledgment of debt for the new Auckland Council in respect of taking up assets, and I think this relates mostly particularly to Watercare Services Ltd, and acknowledging the debts created and providing for tax relief in respect of that. But I want to ask about what would happen if in 2 or 4 years\u2019 time a council in Auckland\u2014I am sure this would not take place under the current council led by Mayor Len Brown\u2014wants to effect a change in the ownership structure. What would that mean in respect of clause 106 and the provisional tax relief that is being provided? Would we see a similar arrangement being entered into? What are the consequences for the past forgiveness of debt by the council? Are we creating a precedent here that has some unintended consequences if a council goes down the track of making a new arrangement for the provision of water services, for instance, in Auckland, and putting it into private ownership for a period of 35 years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe background is that this legislation provides for provisional tax relief and arrangements that are entirely appropriate when we are talking about wholly publicly owned assets and the tax arrangements between them. But when we start to talk about a privately owned company taking over those assets, we should turn to the officials in the Chamber for advice. Obviously the Committee stage is the point at which to do this; this is our last chance to ask questions and gain assurances on behalf of taxpayers. The future management of assets has been a very, very crucial issue, certainly in terms of the other legislation that allows for assets to go into, effectively, private ownership for 35-year periods. So there is an important question in respect of whether clause 106 sets up a precedent with unintended consequences. Should we see a change under a future Auckland Council and a decision be made to move into private control some of the assets for which, under this provision, provisional tax relief is provided\u2014which Parliament is pleased to support, given that we are talking about wholly publicly owned enterprises? What is the situation? I ask the Minister in the chair to please invite the officials to give her a brief on this, or the Minister from the North Shore, who has a keen interest in Auckland issues, to seek advice from the officials, so that we have an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI think this is a very important point, as we go through the final stages of this bill coming into law. This is the last chance to get some clarity around whether unintended consequences will come from this legislation. We obviously have a lot of occasions when we go from having a council that operates with just publicly owned entities to having one that does deals with people outside the ambit of ratepayer-held assets. I am thinking of my own city of Christchurch, where a couple of years ago the Christchurch City Council provided a $17 million loan to a property developer called Dave Henderson. Just in recent weeks that property developer went bust. Obviously the council was using ratepayer funds to bail out a property developer, and that raised a great deal of concern in Christchurch. I can tell members that without any qualms whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EDave Henderson is a close friend of the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide. He is a very close friend. They have publicly described each other as being close friends. Obviously concerns arise when a council is able to provide a sweetheart deal to the private sector, using ratepayers\u2019 money. I understand that not only did Mr Henderson receive $17 million in ratepayers\u2019 money but he did not pay back the GST on the deal to the taxpayer. So the ratepayers of Christchurch subsidised a personal friend of the Minister of Local Government, and then that person did not pay to the Inland Revenue Department the revenue that was due. Perhaps the officials might clarify that matter for us, as well. What revenue was due to the department from the GST on that deal? In effect, there has been a double whammy to ratepayers and taxpayers in respect of that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThat is why we do not want to see such arrangements being entered into under clause 106. We want to see the Auckland Council enter into sensible tax arrangements in respect of the super-city transition. That is wholly appropriate; it is wholly appropriate to see that happen. We want to see those sorts of arrangements be effected between wholly publicly held and accountable ratepayer-owned organisations and institutions. That is wholly appropriate. But when we go down the track, as the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill did, of providing for entry into contracts that effectively privatise such important assets and utilities as water supplies for 35 years, I think the Committee demands to know whether this clause has any ramifications for those kinds of long-term, actually intergenerational arrangements\u201435 years is across generations. The people of New Zealand would like to know whether we are setting ourselves any precedent here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAllied to that issue is the question of whether we have seen, in my city of Christchurch a deal whereby ratepayer funds were used to bail out a property developer. I would really like to know, in that instance, whether any revenue went back to the Inland Revenue Department. The very clear understanding I have is that not only did the ratepayers of Christchurch fund a property developer\u2019s bail-out in the wake of the crash\u2014that property developer has now gone bust\u2014to the tune of $17 million but the Inland Revenue Department base has not received the GST owed to it on the $17 million paid by the ratepayers of Christchurch to Dave Henderson. I think we deserve to be given some clarity on that important issue as we progress through the final stages of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EClause 106 provides for provisional tax relief in the super-city transition. We have a very good Mayor of Auckland in Len Brown, and I cannot see any possibility that we would see the currently publicly held assets vested in Watercare Services going into private hands, which is the issue at the heart of my concern about this clause. But the Committee deserves to receive some assurance from the officials to the Minister that no precedent is set by this measure. If those assets are later transferred into private ownership, what tax ramifications are we creating in clause 106 this afternoon? Clause 106 obviously provides for tax arrangements that are basically neutral in respect of the debt that is being on-passed and picked up by the new Auckland Council, as it absorbs the assets of Watercare Services. It is a wholly appropriate arrangement, but I think the Committee deserves to know the answers to the questions that I have posed here in the final stages of the Committee stage of this important bill. This is a very important clause. It may have some ramifications that are truly long term, and I think that the Committee deserves to have an answer to those questions this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e319ac5c53964fc6ace3fc1921fabcaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e319ac5c53964fc6ace3fc1921fabcaf\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E It might be slightly unusual, but I would like to work backwards through the clauses in Part 7. Starting off with clause 109, I say that on its own we probably would not vote against it, but there is a mis-description in the header. It is all very well to blame parliamentary counsel, but I do not think that that is very fair; the Minister in charge of the bill should take responsibility for that. Otherwise, it is clear that it is tidying up things that should have been cleaned up years ago when the primary Act was amended. It is consequential on that rather than on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222de84c5828e7450d8812456ac3accccb\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: They had 9 long years and did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e56b1987684ab8a1c37289bde482d3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. Did the woman with the brain of Paul Quinn and the voice of Judy Keall just comment? Working backwards, I am seeking from the Minister an assurance on clause 108 with regard to the Health Entitlement Cards Regulations 1993, and it is an assurance in two parts. First of all, I seek an assurance that this regulation needs to be changed by primary legislation and cannot be changed within the regulation itself; normally when we change a regulation, that is the case. Normally, if we go back to primary legislation, then there is something serious going on, and that gets to the second question I have. I am very concerned about clause 108(2), which makes the change to the health entitlement cards regulations retrospective. Again, I do not mind whether the Minister nods or winks at me to indicate whether there is an actual change here. She winked and nodded at me. I wonder what the implication of that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0610aa564e4fb7bd13343c3d3de003\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Friday night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67615e472e24fa4bfe2cd0ecefd628a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: We will be here Saturday night as well! The point I am making\u2014and it is a serious point\u2014is to ask whether there is a reduction in the entitlement as a result of the redefinition of income that has occurred in this clause, and, if there is a reduction in entitlement, whether it should be backdated to 2008-09. If people have their community service cards and they have their entitlements, is it on for them now to be getting bills for health care that occurred in July 2008? If there are changes, people who took their community service card to the doctor and used it then are now losing their entitlements for that time. We are told that this applies for that year and the later income years, and we want to know what the revenue effect of this is\u2014what the change is that flows from that. That is question No. 1 to do with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWorking backwards, I would like to ask Mr Flavell whether he has any comments on clause 107, because it has to do with the renaming of Volunteer Service Abroad, and that is changing within the regulations. The organisation has adopted a new name, a named based on te reo, and it is a question of whether that is appropriate. Again, I ask whether he thinks it is a suitable name, because he will no doubt be able to give his view on that. But, more important, I ask whether primary legislation should be used for this. All we are doing is changing the student loan scheme regulations. People who are offshore doing what my generation knows as volunteer service abroad have some special student loan arrangements and, as this change of name occurs, I want to ensure that we have to use the primary legislation as opposed to the Minister using the other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI have two more clauses to which I would like to refer. Unlike my colleagues, I have a relatively simple question on clause 106. I am certainly not an expert on the Auckland local government legislation, particularly the taxation parts of it, but if one looks at new subsections (19) and (20) of section 83, which go in the transitional provisions part of the legislation after section 83(18), section 83(19) states that if \u201CWatercare Services Limited is liable for a debt to the Auckland Council \u2026 for the purposes of the financial arrangements rules as defined in section YA 1 of the Income Tax Act 2007, the Auckland Council is treated as paying to Watercare Services Limited \u2026 consideration equal to the debt.\u201D The question I have is whether that is the right way round. If the money is owned by Watercare Services to the council, might we have that the wrong way round? I am sure the Minister in charge of the legislation currently, Georgina te Heuheu, is right on top that; I am pleased that she is seeking answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESimilarly, and I think it is fair to say that this is one of those clauses put together by a word processor, there is section 83(20), which relates not to Watercare Services but to council-controlled organisations. It is not quite the same, but I have a similar question as to whether the debt is the right way round. The money is owned by a council-controlled organisation to the council, but the council is treated as paying an amount equal to the debt to the organisation. I am not sure. I am happy to defer to my colleagues if they tell me that they have carefully examined this part of Part 7 of the bill and that they are satisfied it is not as it appears at first glance. I would not want to describe complicated tax legislation as arse about face, but it looks as though it has the debits and the credits mixed up, and who owes whom, and which way it is being paid. I know very well, as a Minister who sat on committees in the office of the Minister of Finance far too often, that every now and again in taxation legislation things are got wrong and we end up coming back to correct them. I am just trying to save the Government a bit of time by checking to see whether this one is the right way round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do not want to make any comment about clause 104, but I want to talk about the Gaming Duties Act 1971 and the deduction of duty from payments due to defaulters. I cannot remember whether you, Mr Chairman Tisch, were in the Chair at the time I raised concern over a parallel arrangement to do with the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, but I am very concerned at the idea that the Inland Revenue Department can dip into a bank account just because it has someone\u2019s name on it and they are a signatory of it. They might not have dealt with the account for 20 years. The money in it might belong to someone else completely. It has nothing to do with gaming money. Just because someone has their name on a bank account and is a signatory, as I am for a few of my relatives, and which has worked and was there for purposes in the past\u2014maybe I was a guarantor or some other similar arrangement; for example, it might have been used as a trust arrangement but is not any longer\u2014it does not mean that they own the money in the account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe idea is that the Inland Revenue Department can go to what is effectively a third party and take the third party\u2019s money out of a bank account in settlement of a debt. I do not want to show any sympathy at all to people involved in the gaming industry who do not pay their debts to the Inland Revenue Department, but that we should go to the point of saying that if they happen to have an arrangement with someone else, where the debtor\u2019s name happens to be on the bank account holding money that is not theirs, and that the Inland Revenue Department can take that third party\u2019s money out of the account without any notice whatsoever\u2014no pleases, no thankyous\u2014I think is something that is not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffb2affb21f0461a9102882e9b9ca057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffb2affb21f0461a9102882e9b9ca057\u0022\u003ETODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00220a80a1a138fe465081f3b7e771ce2a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a80a1a138fe465081f3b7e771ce2a34\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about a couple of clauses in Part 7. They include clause 105, which my learned colleague\u2014sorry, not my learned colleague, because he does not like the title \u201Clearned\u201D. Does it really apply only to lawyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296262d5c53bb446e9e59051a51a83dc3\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Someone is learned if they are a lawyer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4d1537909941e38fac51bbb24630f6\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Is that right? How can they say lawyers are learned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e1077c31c046f78308031fd90f4979\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s part of the British tradition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222658f1ff556a438597d18e38e1a8211c\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I did not realise that. I will talk on clauses 105 and 106. I will start with clause 105, and I will take the Committee through the process the Finance and Expenditure Committee went through when deliberating on this clause, because it caused quite a bit of debate. Mr Norman and Mr Cunliffe will remember this clause, and Sir Roger Douglas will certainly remember it, because it created a lot of debate within the select committee around how we should do this and whether we should be able to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI remember bringing up a case that is very close to me. I have a very good friend who married someone she thought was a very nice gentleman. He was an osteopath, and was very respectable and very charming. She did not know at the time of the marriage that he had problems. He had gambling and drinking problems, he certainly had a problem with lying, and she suspects he might have had drug problems. But that does not matter; the bottom line is that he had problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EShe entered into the relationship pretty much owning a house\u2014not all of the house, because she had a small mortgage\u2014and some investments. The gentleman whom she married\u2014I should not call him a gentleman, because he was not\u2014entered the marriage with not much at all. She was a little naive, but in love, and often when we are in love we can be a little naive and tricked by the lies told by partners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e90d99d3d548cba59c0dbcb961c5dc\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a chemical thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b08fa08e635446785da4a625de6df46\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is a chemical thing. It is irrational. He ended up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfe2ab999e5482db7343921f2783a47\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually hormonal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b655b498cffb487fb4a2d476a7c2fa76\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Hormonal, chemical\u2014whatever love is, it is a wonderful thing at times, but it can cloud the judgment. He ended up taking her to the cleaners. She did not know that he was signing away guarantees against the house, going to the bank, and taking money out of the joint account. He left, and then the bank said to my friend that it was foreclosing on her loans. She said: \u201CWhat loans? I don\u2019t have any loans.\u201D The bank said that she did, and that there was a guarantor against the joint bank account, who was her husband. She threw up her hands in dismay and said that she did not know anything about it. The bank said that there was nothing at all that it could do about it. At that stage, she had no assets. She either declared herself bankrupt or went through a no-asset procedure because this guy ripped her off and told her a whole lot of sweet nothings when she was in love with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI brought this case up with the Inland Revenue Department and asked whether this sort of thing could happen. The Inland Revenue Department said that it could not, because it was talking about the Inland Revenue Department, not banks. I will clarify this matter. Mr Burns also brought up a case in which one of his constituents had been ripped off in this manner. The Inland Revenue Department explained what was happening under current law\u2014that is, people who owed tax were simply transferring tax to a joint bank account, and there was no way the Inland Revenue Department could get hold of this money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI am not talking about the average New Zealander who owes $1,000. I am talking about people who, according to the Inland Revenue Department, owe significant amounts of money. This was a loophole. These people were simply transferring money into the account of Mr and Mrs John Smith, and it was completely untouchable. There was nothing the Inland Revenue Department could do. The people who owed significant amounts of money were sitting there and saying it was not their money, so the department could not touch it. They had no assets that the department could touch. The Inland Revenue Department said that all it was doing with clause 105 was bringing it in line with other tax legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e41957e40c492c8ceced5e413de345\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: But this doesn\u2019t show that the money has actually gone into that account. Nothing in here requires the money to be followed from the defaulter into the account. It could be someone else\u2019s money completely, and it could have been there for 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d63d08245c1444b7bf6a641f3db3e4da\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it could be. This is the point that the select committee brought up: how can we make sure that this person has control of this money? It said that there needs to be an element of control of that money. The Inland Revenue Department made a couple of assurances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022a04614663baa4b53a238e2f086fe971a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a04614663baa4b53a238e2f086fe971a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a81969759ef243f29ad25ce0994c9daa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282bf8f53df994f4c96b8a1df0605143b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8240471f6cf4c81b06478a16541bc64\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275857b5d36d6473fb632b6ea9374d568\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2fb9fe7a9c64b7b97b7c2b1fb444ba4\u0022\u003ENew schedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000796\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to add new schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022abb14f3c2c954d298345a53a9fd42c32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That new schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 36; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew schedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227c59b3c45f2a415182af7b7dbd27141e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c59b3c45f2a415182af7b7dbd27141e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E It is 10 to 6. We have made enormous progress this afternoon. I seek leave for us to start the dinner break now and resume the Committee at 7 o\u2019clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3963167da646848b0174dcc555da4b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d6eac6cbc6340238241290fa097aeb7\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3e8c4a745f423683ca117eda286a7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3e8c4a745f423683ca117eda286a7a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E It is obvious which members have been here and which have not. Normally, a debate on a title and commencement date would be relatively short, but on this particular occasion it is likely to be much, much longer, because I do not think I have ever seen a bill with such a dog\u2019s breakfast of a Supplementary Order Paper to do with the commencement date. I will start off by reading it to members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ENormally, a commencement clause has just a date, but clause 2(6) will replace sections 40 and 41\u2014this is on line 16 of page 6. If we look at the bill as it stands, we see that the commencement date runs from line 4 on page 6 through to line 14 on page 7. I have never seen such a complex commencement date\u2014and if that was not enough, it is subject to 15 separate amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper. Members can expect members of the Opposition to be debating every single one of those amendments to the commencement dates, because we think it is important that the Government is held to account and we think it is important to ensure that it works well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will refer first of all to subclause (2) of clause 2, and I will be fair to the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Courts. I am not sure whether she will be the Minister in the chair after dinner. I reckon the Government will give her the sack over the dinner break because of the way this has been handled. Subclause (2) is not affected by Supplementary Order Paper 187. Most of the subclauses in clause 2 are affected by the Supplementary Order Paper, but subclause (2) is not. Section 104, in subclause (2), is treated as coming into force on 1 January 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Government what sort of retrospective approach it is taking to legislation. Section 104 is in Part 7, which I did not get to when we were working our way through the bill. I was cruelly interrupted and I got only two calls on it. Section 104, which relates to goods and services tax, amends section ED 4(3) of the Income Tax Act, and the changes are treated as coming into force in January 2005. I seek an assurance from the Minister that these changes are beneficial to taxpayers and are not negative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is one of the principles of retrospectivity in taxation legislation that one can be aggressive in a prospective sense, but when one is dealing with legislation retrospectively, as we are in this case, it should be to the benefit of taxpayers only. The assurance that I am seeking is that because of this date\u2014[Interruption] No, it is not a hard question to answer, because it is not one of the more complicated questions that we will be getting to soon\u2014the subclauses that are affected by the Supplementary Order Paper. But under clause 2(2), section 104 is treated as coming into force on 1 January 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn a similar way, I want to now refer to subclause (3) of clause 2, the commencement clause. In doing a cross reference, I can confirm that subclause (3) is not affected by Supplementary Order Paper 187, which is very big and will, of course, be the main focus of the debate on the commencement clause. Clause 2(3) relates to sections 88, 89, 90, 92, and 93. These matters relate to a matter that we had quite a lot of discussion on. We had an interesting discussion with the Hon Peter Dunne on the question of allowances. The Opposition moved an amendment to backdate that particular taxation arrangement. It was not successful, but, of course, if we had been successful, we would have had to shift the commencement date as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut, again, I wanted to check and make sure that these arrangements are beneficial to taxpayers, because my interpretation is that they are not and that there is a widening, from board to allowances, which means that some people will be treated adversely. If we are treating them retrospectively back to 2005-06 and have a commencement date of 1 April 2005 in section 88\u2014it is clause 88 of the bill, but it will be section 88 of the Act\u2014than that is a real question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe next question I have relates to section 89. My eyes cannot quite see so I ask the Chair whether section 89 is struck out. There may be a line there that is not well printed. Clause 89 of the bill was struck out of the bill at the select committee. I want to check that we are not giving a commencement date to clause that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229acf30a45bd84902bb97740ed3df9ea1\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to ask exactly that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225541e97d03bf4be7b4f6722af6ca0aff\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased someone else is awake. Most of the strikeouts are very clear. It looks like there is a bit of a dirty mark on the page, and I cannot quite tell whether section 89 is struck out. It is struck out\u2014I thank the Minister for her assurance on that. I move now to clause 90. That is one of the areas where I do not think there has been a lot of debate. Therefore, I will not focus on it, especially not in the debate on the commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut employment-related loans\u2014this is in clause 92\u2014are very important. Clearly, we have already made a decision that it applies to the 2005-06 year and later income years, but here we are bringing it into force at an earlier date, back at 1 April 2005, which is appropriate for the 2005-06 tax year. But, again\u2014and I am interested to hear from my colleagues who have more legal experience than I do\u2014I am very concerned about clause 92, \u201CEmployment-related loans: repayment\u201D, and the changes that are occurring there. If we are in fact bringing in this legislation as being \u201Ctreated as\u201D, then it is deemed. Geoffrey Palmer would hate this\u2014a deeming provision of this sort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227544a1b780b44ce195bca39418b88157\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Ever since he left the Law Commission, things have gone downhill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d9bf2a3cd5452c95145a959e20b0ef\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. I think that ever since Geoffrey became Attorney-General, things have been going downhill for him. We had a few \u201Cdeemings\u201D. But, effectively, \u201Ctreated as coming into force\u201D I think means the same as \u201Cdeeming\u201D in this context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d823592e704366b2719422ef024a96\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Is that in the SOP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d58b56c89674718bb0924791bcdc67d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is actually in the bill. I am up to only clause 2(3) of the commencement provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50cac791a214a598c4ca66da106c10d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure I was referring before dinner to clause 2(3), and I think I dealt with the commencement date of section 92, which, of course, in the bill is clause 92. I was about to move on to clause 93. Clause 93, \u201CSchedule 22A\u2014Identified policy changes\u201D, is a pretty substantial area. The policy changes are within the block at line 27 on page 63. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe identified policy changes in schedule 22A are treated as coming into force on 1 April 2005. I ask the Minister in the chair\u2014we now have a new Minister in the chair; it is Paula Bennett\u2014for an assurance that these changes are advantageous to shareholders, because this is retrospective legislation, going back to 1 April 2005. I cannot quite tell whether the Minister is bored already, whether she is being caring and pretending to listen, or whether she is giving me the nod. She is giving me the nod. [Interruption] No, she is listening to me and she is giving me an assurance, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI move now to clause 2(4), which deals with when sections 90B and 91 are treated as coming into force. I would like to ask a similar question. These are, of course, part of the bill as reported back by the select committee. It is not until we get to clause 2(6) that we start to focus on the Supplementary Order Paper. I am sure the Minister is well-briefed on that, and we thank her. She will be able to answer the question. Of course, there will be a lot more questions when we get down to that part of the Supplementary Order Paper. But, in this case, I am focusing on sections 90B and 91\u2014which are, of course, still clauses 90B and 91. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EClause 90B deals with the investor interest size requirement. It is a new clause that was added by the select committee, and it states: \u201CAn entity with an investor holding of more than 20% of the total portfolio investor interests in a class does not breach the investor interest size requirement if the investor is listed in subsection (4).\u201D I ask the Minister\u2014because this is being brought in now and it appears to be backdated to 1 October 2007\u2014whether this already exists in legislation at any other point. There is nothing in the bill that indicates that this list, which will come into force from 1 October 2007, actually exists now or whether it will be a new list that will be developed by the commissioner. It is listed in subsection (4) of the Act\u2014it is a question of whether, as part of subsection (4), it is part of the 2007 or the 2004 amendments to the Act, or whether subsection (4) refers to the regulations that flow from this section of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI move now to clause 11. Subclause (5) of clause 2 states that \u201CSection 11 is treated as coming into force on 30 November 2007.\u201D The issue in clause 11 is that of special returns. If there is a requirement to furnish a special return under section 17(1B) of the Act, can one retrospectively require someone to furnish a return before the current date when it came into force previously? Frankly, I do not understand how one makes someone furnish a return now or previously. One has either furnished a return before now, and the requirement to furnish a return should come into force now, or not\u2014and my colleagues to my left might be able to explain it to me, because it is part of the legislation. How can one retrospectively furnish a return? This is a requirement to furnish a return. How could it possibly be retrospective? People have either furnished it or not. If they have furnished it, that is fine, but they cannot go back and furnish something now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002270a58d0f30eb4dec85251b97fa92c085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a58d0f30eb4dec85251b97fa92c085\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin by continuing the theme that my colleague Trevor Mallard picked up. That is to say that it looks like a random number generator has wandered its way through the pages of this Supplementary Order Paper, so incoherent are the commencement dates of the various clauses. To give just a few examples, the amendment to insert new clause 2(7B) covers sections 74(7G), 79B(1A), 79B(1D), and 79B(3), which are treated as coming into force on 1 April 2009, whereas sections 74(7BAB) and 82, inserted by new clause 2(8), are treated as coming into force on 6 October 2009, and sections 34B and 34C, inserted by new clause 2(9B), come into force on 20 May 2010. These are not even the same dates of subsequent years. They appear to be randomly distributed. Sections 19B, 28B, 30C, 36B(1), 36B(3), 64C, 67B to 67F, 73B, and 83B all come into force on 1 October 2010. Section 74G, however, comes into force on 1 November 2010. Why single out one section to come into force 1 month later? Then there is a whole swag. I will spare members opposite the experience of reading through all the provisions, but they start at section 21B and proceed through sections 51B(1), 57BA, 69(1B), 74(1B), and a bunch of subsections of section 74, right on through to section 75(1)(b) and down to section 94B. There are about 24 of those provisions that enter into force on 1 April 2013. That is just in the head note\u2014just in the head note. When one goes through the bill, what is interesting is that the random number generator appears to have gone amok, because interspersed through the bill are a range of starting dates, some of which appear to be covered, although others are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIf we turn to page 6 of the Supplementary Order Paper, we see the date is 1 April 2011. Flicking through, the date in subsection (2) of section CX 63 on page 8 is again 1 April 2011. Running through, we get the amendment to insert new clauses 34B to 34F, with dates of 20 May 2010. Moving over to the amendment to insert new clauses 38B to 38D, the date is 1 April 2011, including the amendment to insert new section FB 10B. The date is 1 April 2011 for new clause 41B. This is really interesting: within the same clause, new clause 41G, \u201CElections to become qualifying company\u201D, we have a range of different starting dates. There are different commencement dates within the same clause. That is hard to credit. New sections HA 5(1B) and HA 5(5), inserted by new clauses 41G(2) and 41G(3) respectively, have 1 April 2011, but new clauses 41G(4) and 41G(5), which follow, are not specified. The next clause, new clause 41H, which inserts new section HA 7B, \u201CGrandparenting requirement\u201D, from the grandparenting Act, has the date of 1 April 2011. Sections HA 10, HA 11(4), and HA 20 have the date of 1 April 2011. But in the next clause, new clause 41J, the date is 1 April 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe point is that there is no transparent logic as to why these different dates would have been selected. I can go on. New section HZ 4D, inserted by new clause 57BA, which runs from page 42 to page 44, has the date 1 April 2011, and so on and so forth. These apparently random numbers carry on throughout the Supplementary Order Paper. There may be some logic to this. I am sure officials have thought about it, I am sure they have their reasons, and the Minister, Peter Dunne, is an experienced Minister. I am sure that if it was purely random he would have noticed. But the point is that the Supplementary Order Paper is not transparent to the Committee. These questions could have been asked in a select committee if the Supplementary Order Paper had gone to a select committee, but, of course, it did not. Where we are left as a Parliament is having to make observations. There may be logical answers, but the Minister seems unprepared to reply to them, and thereby\u2014just like the Opposition\u2014the public, the industry, and any listeners to this debate have no idea why an assortment of apparently randomly selected commencement dates have been sprinkled through the bill like confetti or hundreds and thousands. I have seen more order on a child\u2019s sandwich. That is an example of the sort of thing the Committee has been wrestling with since 9.30 this morning. This is very, very bad lawmaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat brings us, of course, to the title of the bill. It should have been called the \u201CTaxation (GST and Minor Matters Unanimously Agreed by the Select Committee) Bill\u201D, because every party in the House was going to agree to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab15d9e40e14c8bbb0c0aad245a0c48\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the work wasn\u2019t thorough enough in select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a925baf555a488f9becd1e41683f877\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my colleague has been doing a bit of late revisionism and he has found a few hairs that he wants to split\u2014and good on him. It is great to have his laser-like focus at this stage in the proceedings. Of course, as in any bill, I say to Mr Mallard, there are things one would change\u2014but we pick our targets. Suffice it to say that there was sufficient agreement on this bill for all colleagues around the House to feel that it did more good than harm. Hello! We now get a 70 page Supplementary Order Paper dropped on the Committee almost without notice, bigger than the original bill and filled with very, very substantive provisions, and the consensus is destroyed. The Minister has single-handedly shot the process in the foot, and with it the parliamentary consensus that it would have enjoyed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo we could call it the \u201CBad Process Bill\u201D. We could call it the \u201CPulling Division from the Jaws of Unity Bill\u201D. We could call it the \u201CNewton\u2019s Law of Holes (What Ministers Should Always Avoid) Bill\u201D, because the Minister fell into the trap of keeping on digging when, in earlier parts of the debate, he was confronted with the process choices he has made. Instead of saying: \u201COK, you guys have got a point. We didn\u2019t provide it earlier and it hasn\u2019t had all the scrutiny it could have had, but it should still be passed.\u201D, no, the Minister ran the following line: \u201CWell, we announced our intention in general terms in the Budget.\u201D Fine. \u201CWe consulted with the industry on some matters contained in the bill.\u201D Fine. \u201CWe therefore didn\u2019t need to put it to a select committee.\u201D Not fine, because by the very same logic no tax bill would ever go to a select committee, as almost all tax matters are highlighted in the Budget and almost all tax matters have been consulted on, at some point, with the industry. That is exactly why we have a generic tax policy process that involves public submissions, because\u2014let\u2019s face it\u2014many of those in the industry represent vested interests. They do not represent Kiwi mums and dads, and Kiwi mums and dads are entitled to know, at the very least, why this bill affects them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhy does it affect them? Well here is the next possible title: the \u201CBig Bottom Line Bill\u201D. There is $2.2 billion of tax revenue at stake in the loss attributing qualifying company avoidance stakes, which is governed by this Supplementary Order Paper. There is $2.25 billion, as opposed to a total corporate tax take of only $9 billion. That is over a quarter, yet it is supposedly amenable to discussion by a late amendment in the Committee of the whole House, without public scrutiny through a select committee. That is why this bill should be called the \u201CNewton Law of Holes (Please Stop Digging, Minister) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EPerhaps it could be called the \u201CGreen Light to Avoidance Bill\u201D\u2014or at least a very soft amber light, because although it is true, as the Minister said, that the look-through company regime is just marginally tighter than the loss attributing qualifying company regime, \u201Cmarginally\u201D is the operative word. Out of the $2.3 billion - odd of potentially avoided tax, this regime recovers only $130 million for the Crown. That is $0.13 billion, not $2.3 billion. So the question has to be asked\u2014and it is probably the primary, substantive question in this bill\u2014as to whether the Government could not have done better. Could officials not have been asked to go further, to work harder, and to be provided with more resourcing so they could get that $130 million up, at the time of the public\u2019s greatest need, to something closer to a shut-down of those much maligned exemptions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFinally, we just might call this bill the \u201CWeak Excuse For Weak Law Bill\u201D. The excuse was that it was so urgent that we just had to bring it in before Christmas. But it was not urgent enough to take the amendments to the select committee a month ago. That has got to be the weakest excuse of all, given the magnitude of tax flows at stake in the substance of this bill. Well, it is at times like this that one is confronted with the age-old choice: was this a stuff-up, or was it a conspiracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022469d42ffdb2d4db5b672aafe7b5a2cbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022469d42ffdb2d4db5b672aafe7b5a2cbf\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to reiterate some of the comments my colleagues have made on the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EMy colleague David Cunliffe looked at the 71-page Supplementary Order Paper 187, which was tabled on Tuesday, and went through some of the commencement dates there. If we have a look at the actual bill itself, we see that clause 2(1) states that \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent, except as provided in this section.\u201D Section 104 is treated as coming into force on 1 January 2005, and sections 88, 89, 90, 92, and 93 are treated as coming into force on 1 April 2005. Those dates have passed, so it is obviously retrospective legislation. Section 92B is treated as coming into force on 1 April 2006. Sections 90B and 91 are treated as coming into force on 1 October 2007. Section 11 is treated as coming into force on 30 November 2007. A whole lot of sections from section 23\u2014in the 20s, the 30s, and the 40s, section 58, in the 60s, the 70s, and 80s, and section 108\u2014are treated as coming into force on 1 April 2008. Section 64 is treated as coming into force on 1 October 2008. Section 82 is treated as coming into force on 6 October 2009. A whole lot of sections are treated as coming into force on 1 April 2010, more on 1 July 2010, a few more on 1 August 2010, one section on 5 August 2010, one section on 31 October 2010, and a whole lot more sections on 1 April 2011. Then, as Mr Cunliffe mentioned, the Supplementary Order Paper runs out the commencement date as far as April 2013. I think it would have been easier to list the sections that did receive the Royal assent, rather than the ones that did not. There are so many dates here that it is confusing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ETo tell the truth, I do not think a date is needed. I do not think the Minister of Revenue cares. The only reason there is a date is he has to have one by law. But he does not care. If he did care, then he would not throw down a 71-page Supplementary Order Paper a day before the bill was debated in the Chamber, a week before we break for Christmas, and tell Labour members to go for it. In fact, the Minister said to us that his officials had given Labour members a briefing. He gave us a briefing on Wednesday at our request for about 40 minutes on one small part of the bill. We had no idea the Supplementary Order Paper was coming. So the commencement date is a bit of a mystery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe mentioned, there is no transparency and no accountability. The problem I have with that is that as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, as well as a member of Parliament, I am accountable for this bill. This bill will go through the House and it will be stated that it went through the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Well, the truth is that less than half the bill, as it will end up, went through the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The majority of the bill did not go through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and it should have. We have made that point, and I think it is a very valid point. I have had a couple of emails saying: \u201CGood on you, guys, because this isn\u2019t right.\u201D One of them was from a tax lawyer. I can tell members that he will be rubbing his hands all the way to the bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut there is another point to make. This legislation will come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I know that it will. Do members know how it will come there? It will come as a remedial matters bill, and we will have to go through and make a whole lot of changes that the select committee would have made anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELet us look at the title. The bill could be called the \u201CTaxation (Been Dunne Over) Bill.\u201D The reason I say that is the initial bill was introduced on 5 August and it received its first reading on, I think, 19 August. Minister Dunne told us that he needed a Supplementary Order Paper because there was not enough time to introduce a proper bill. But Mr Dunne also told us that these changes were signalled in January when the Tax Working Group came back and outlined what it wanted to do. These changes were signalled when the Inland Revenue Department, the Minister\u2019s ministry, put out a consultation document. These changes were signalled in the Budget. The changes were signalled three times, about 6 months ago. The Budget came out on 20 May. Since then there has been June, July, August, September, October, November, and we are in December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that the bill had to be taken for consultation. Well, he had 6 months. In fact, he could have done that in 3 months. He has asked Labour MPs to look at it in just 2 days. Why could he not have asked high-paid consultants to look at it in 2 months? How about 10 weeks of consultation? That is enough time. We ask people who are submitting to the Finance and Expenditure Committee to have their submissions in within 5 weeks\u2014that is what we ask them\u2014but we now suggest 10 weeks. That is enough time for highly paid tax consultants. That would have meant the bill was brought back in June or July. The Minister could have had something drafted with all their recommendations in it and given it to the Finance and Expenditure Committee in August, when the initial bill was introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265034589a8a246aeb135f1eac8e32b71\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Democracy is paying the price for his incompetence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa81dbca492d49ec9abe5770605f8e5b\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It very much is. I wonder what the Minister has been doing. Is he a lazy Minister? I have heard from my colleagues who know Peter Dunne a lot better than I do, because they have worked with him, that he was a stickler for process. This is not a bill from a Minister who is a stickler for process. Let us talk about this. If the consultants had had 3 months to look at it, that would have given the select committee another 3 months to look at it. But, of course, as I mentioned, we asked for submissions. We could have given the submissioners 4 weeks. They would have given their submissions, changes would have been made to the bill, and 2 months later the bill could have been reported back to the House\u2014about 6 weeks ago. That is why I call this bill the \u201CTaxation (Been Dunne Over) Bill\u201D. It could be called the \u201CTaxation by SOP Bill\u201D, because this is taxation legislation by Supplementary Order Paper. That means that this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9be646ab8a741f6b66feb3a9a9abe95\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: No taxation without representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a471035a044c2096c509f64a1c5ae4\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: No taxation without representation. What this means is that the Minister has put a huge, substantial part of tax legislation on the Table with just 2 days for us to look at it. I personally do not think that is right, and it certainly does not show any measure of accountability nor any measure of transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIt could be called the \u201CTaxation (Law Society Appreciation) Bill\u201D, because a lot of this legislation will be decided in the courts. I will say why: because it has not gone through due process, which would have really tightened it up. I can say as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee that the drafters do a fantastic job. They draft some very good bills, and I am sure the Supplementary Order Paper was well drafted. But the select committee process allows us to go through legislation almost line by line, which Mr Mallard said used to happen in the Committee stage. The select committee does that these days, clause by clause. The drafters sit down and say they think they have made a mistake. They cross-reference everything. Even on the third report back they say they have some changes to make. That could have happened this time. There is no excuse in my mind for this legislation to be passed under urgency through a Supplementary Order Paper. It is not good process. There will be lawyers and tax consultants who make a lot of money out of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe have a small problem, the problem being that the banks\u2014and I am not bringing the banks into this\u2014had to pay back about $2 billion in tax. They had to do that because they had interpreted tax legislation one way and the Commissioner of Inland Revenue had interpreted tax legislation another way. There was confusion, and this is what happens when there is confusion: taxpayers do not get it right and the liability can be huge. Knowing the lawyers that the banks used, I can image their bill was huge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are a number of names that this bill could have been called that are so much more appropriate than the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. Let us be honest: \u201CRemedial Matters\u201D suggests that it is a tweaking, a tidy-up, or a correction\u2014not substantial legislation that wipes away 130,000 legal entities. This legislation removes loss attributing qualifying companies, and that is done in a Supplementary Order Paper. There is no transparency there. That is why I have real concerns about this bill, and that is why the name of the bill does not accurately reflect the substantive quantity of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWith \u201CGST\u201D in the title, we get the inference that there is something to do with GST in the bill. It is a headline act, and it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00222ef1c5971c00479aae4af01780476a80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ef1c5971c00479aae4af01780476a80\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220895b91e200b4db294c3da1f37ae2549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220895b91e200b4db294c3da1f37ae2549\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to follow my colleague Stuart Nash. I think he was picking up on a very important point as we debate the title and commencement clauses of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. In fact, when we consider the title, it gives us a signal that this was to be a non-controversial bill. It is inherent in the title that it would not create any divisions in Parliament. Indeed, until this morning at 9.30 or thereabouts it had not done so. It had proceeded quite amicably through the process of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It had been done in a bipartisan fashion, and some good, sensible amendments had been brought through the select committee process. We had had submissions and heard other people\u2019s view on the bill to make sure it implemented the measures that the Government wanted to see implemented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThen, effectively out of nowhere, came the 70-page Supplementary Order Paper. I think it complicates the process and makes it very difficult for a rational decision-making process to take place. It came out of nowhere. The Minister of Revenue asserted that there were indications of it; we certainly did not see those through the select committee. To see a Supplementary Order Paper of that magnitude\u201470 pages of complex detail\u2014tabled in Parliament on Tuesday is not appropriate, given the title of what should be a non-controversial bill proceeding through Parliament. It is a wash-up bill that creates no issue between parties that simply want to resolve technical tax adjustments of an annual basis and similar adjustments. Yet here we are, at 7.30, 2 weeks out from Christmas on a Friday evening, debating a bill that has attached to it a major Supplementary Order Paper that sees the title needing to be changed to reflect the enormous addition that the Supplementary Order Paper brings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThere is major substance in the Supplementary Order Paper. Major changes are introduced to the bill, and the Parliament has no opportunity other than this very constrained chance through the Committee stage and the third reading of the bill to consider what ramifications are brought by the bill under the current title. It brings quite considerable risks of error, and we may need to revisit it as a Parliament. That is certainly the history. Anybody who follows the legislative process will know that rushed legislation is bad legislation. There are occasional needs for it to be rushed, and we as a party have not stood in the way of those changes. I think back to the Canterbury Earthquake Response and Recovery Bill. Not a single member of this House opposed that legislation. But when we have a technical tax bill, as reflected in the title of this bill, it is incumbent on the Minister that he does not introduce controversial late changes of the scale and order that he has, which skew the original purpose of the bill and are not truly reflected in the title of the bill before the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis brings a risk for the Inland Revenue Department. Let us face it: no one particularly likes paying tax. The department has a difficult task. Its job is to be fair\u2014I think that is the phrase\u2014and to collect the revenue, and we uphold the department in its duty and acknowledge the work that it does. But when a bill with a Supplementary Order Paper of this size, under the bill\u2019s title as introduced, comes through Parliament at a great rate of knots, bringing with it very high risks of error that have not been picked up by the usual process, then inevitably two parties wear those risks\u2014probably three, in fact. The first is the Government, but technical tax bills are not likely to create enormous public disorder. They also create issues for the taxpayers, which is the second party. They will find a venue for their wrath, and that wrath will likely be deposited, I suggest, with the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI have some sympathy for the Inland Revenue Department officials. I am sure if they were able to speak out, they would not be favouring this process. I am sure they would want the comfort that the select committee process provides by way of scrutiny and by way of public submission. When a bill is introduced with a Supplementary Order Paper of this scale that is not truly reflective of the title that it came into this House with in August, then there have to be some very serious concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe bill could be re-titled with alternative names. One that comes to the mind is the \u201CJonathan Coleman Mark 2 Bill\u201D, reflecting the last time the Minister of Revenue had a major piece of legislation in the House and entrusted it to another Minister. The Minister in the chair, the Minister for Social Development and Employment, had better be a bit wary and check her speech notes. If she has any notes tonight to speak from, she should double-check that they are reflective of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill and not another piece of tax legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAlthough Mr Dunne apologised profusely for that error and accepted that it was his office\u2019s error, I think Jonathan Coleman copped the flak for that and his reputation suffered. So I suggest to the Minister for Social Development and Employment, sitting in the chair tonight in place of the Minister of Revenue, that she watch very carefully, if she has speech notes, to check that they are the right speech notes. Then she will not be given the sort of moniker that Jonathan Coleman earned in respect of reading speech notes for another tax bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAnother name for the bill could be the \u201CHere I Come, Ottawa Bill\u201D. The word is that Mr Dunne may be in his last term in Parliament and that he might be looking for a posting overseas, and Ottawa is a posting that tends to go to middle-level politicians finishing their career. I am sure he would make a very good High Commissioner for New Zealand in Ottawa; I am sure he would serve us faithfully. But I have to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a7ad0a0fd04fd383f4ca14fbbd8049\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You get the Caribbean at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226842dfa55bbb4b81985717f13c3bf7d6\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: Gee, it must be really nice in December to escape from Ottawa to the Caribbean, because the winters are fairly bleak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister is a competent Minister. That is why this bill has been surprising, because the hallmark of this man through 25-plus years\u2014a quarter of a century\u2014in this Parliament has been sober habits. He is a man who brought through legislation when he was a Minister that generally was well structured, was introduced in the appropriate time frames, and was given the right amount of time for scrutiny by select committees and by Parliament. So it is a surprise to us that we are dealing with a bill with the title of Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. The locomotive is the bill, as reflected by the title, but behind it is this train of many carriages reflected by the Supplementary Order Paper. Perhaps we could pick a locomotive title for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAnother possibility might be the \u201CMantle of Gerry Brownlee Bill\u201D, because in terms of competence he is another Minister who vies for the title of not having the best command of the House\u2019s practices. By bringing in this bill in this fashion, with this huge collected train of a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, which is bigger by 13 pages than the original bill, Peter Dunne is bringing the House into considerable risk of disrepute as those tax changes unfold and the implications of them come through for us as a Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI expect, as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that this may not be the last we see of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill, soon to be an Act. I believe we will be revisiting this issue, or at least the content of the Supplementary Order Paper that is attached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the commencement dates, I note\u2014and my colleague Stuart Nash touched upon this\u2014the varying commencement dates for the various clauses of the bill. They date right back to 2005-06 in the changes to the taxation treatment of accommodation issues. So there is an issue of retrospectivity with this bill, as introduced, and we always have to be very cautious with that as a House. Obviously a whole range of issues unfold when we start trying to pass legislation that deals with past issues and validates issues that have been in play for, sometimes, a number of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe have several varying commencement dates. Clause 104 comes into force on 1 January 2005, so we are stepping back nearly 6 years in terms of retrospectivity in respect of the bill. Clauses 88, 90, 92, and 93 come into force on 1 April 2005, so again there is that 5-year - plus time frame. Clause 92B comes into force on 1 April 2006. Clauses 90B and 91 come into force on 1 October 2007. Clause 11 comes into force on 30 November 2007. Then we come up to more recent times, with clauses 64 and 82 coming into force in October 2008 and 2009 respectively, and clause 31 and whole range of others, which I will not bore the Committee with reading, coming into force on 1 April 2010. We are into this year, coming into the home straight in respect of the retrospectivity of the measures. But it is an issue of concern that we are passing this legislation under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a948cf88ad2940c68cdd03b3eb69f890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a948cf88ad2940c68cdd03b3eb69f890\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E This is a serious question for the Minister. It is one of these issues of \u201CFind the subclause.\u201D I challenge someone to find subclause (7B) of clause 74 in the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I have been looking for it and I cannot find it. It has been brought into force, according to the Supplementary Order Paper, and to be fair it has been brought into force by the amendment. In fact, (7B) is something that came in apparently as a result of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but if one goes to clause 74, one will see there is no subclause (7B), or one that I can find at least on the relevant page, page 56, of the bill. If we go to page 58 of the Supplementary Order Paper, we can find subclauses (7BA) and (7BAB). We can find subclause (7BB). We can find subclause(7BC), but we do not appear to be able to find subclause (7B). If there is a separate Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister that I have not got and it is clicked in there somewhere, then that is something I would be interested in, but I am trying to work it out. I do have an interest in the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme. I have had something to do with setting it up, and, in fact, worked with a group of its people recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut it is a bit like the game \u201CPin the Tail on the Donkey\u201D. I am trying to find where subclause (7B) of clause 74 is. I would be obliged to any member opposite who can point out a page of the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014or, presumably, it should be in the bill as reported back. It is referred to in the bill as reported back, but we seem to have clause 74B(1) and (2), but do not seem to have clause 74(7), although I am now working my way backwards. Clause 74\u2014oh, is it the definition clause? That is where it is. I am obliged to officials for giving me a nod there, and, in fact, for members who have been searching. I do not know whether it involves a chocolate fish. It appears slightly out of place in the numbering, and I am obliged to people, because I think we found it at about the same time. For those who are at home searching through the bill, it is on page 55, and it is on lines 11, 12, and 13 for those people interested. I think it is one of the problems that this late at night the difference between clause 74B(7) and, in this case, clause 74(7B) is something that can be a little bit confusing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI apologise to the Committee on that particular point. But it does go to what I think is a pretty important factor when one has a Supplementary Order Paper with so many changes. I will just check again, because we have \u201C74(9)\u201D, as well, and it is a matter of checking whether that is also in the right place. That has to do with the definition of \u201Ctransfer of value\u201D, in which the phrase \u201Cparagraph (b)(ii)\u201D in paragraph (a) is substituted by \u201Csubparagraph\u201D and then\u2014what do they call that little \u201Ci\u201D with the brackets around it? One of my friends who can remember Latin might be able to tell me. No, it is all right; it is a long time since they have done Latin. But we count it as a one, or an \u201Ci\u201D with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e74de993aa4860be07f9faddb51a6c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Roman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226882566f44e546e4ae3bfc7cde80f6d3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is a roman one, I suppose. But there is a word for it. [Interruption] No, my colleague from Southland does not have a good memory for Latin, either, and it was a long time ago. I think I can remember amo amas amat, and amo was the one that I mainly went for during my career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b409c8fe3104a0a94bf3da9fe1bbb2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b409c8fe3104a0a94bf3da9fe1bbb2b\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c51c9e54a3044aa8a61db7023c494fed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c0a7ebec98864666943a8803eeeee1c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000868\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 187 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab746e5a51ad4f1eb18947bbadc42a99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227490fa7d13804756ac929ab935aebf80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000869\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000870\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7c38b1d842945d5afcd9d0209335c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7c38b1d842945d5afcd9d0209335c77\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022092c9635ed254eae9a8729ca393ef680\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022254f5000ebc743188dde937c44717988\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002296b4c9300ec34d5eb75540281e07950c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296b4c9300ec34d5eb75540281e07950c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Under Standing Order 71, I move, That the Government order of the day for the third reading of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill be postponed. The reasons for this are obvious. This bill has been rushed\u2014it has been rushed enormously. It has had a Supplementary Order Paper that is double the size of the bill. It has brought in a whole new area that has not gone to a select committee, and members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b72305006841b689579a148f213d6b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, a procedural motion of this nature is not a debatable point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536cfc87913045778381c60781456732\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished moving it yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221115b2095626450595d8875c2f3f012b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I considered the member had finished moving it. The member was on to an explanation, and no doubt it would have been a lengthy one if he was given the opportunity. We now have a procedural motion. I have been advised by the Clerk that the member\u2019s motion is out of order because it is not an order of the day. We now come to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227ca6704357da4cdfb40cb17f477d2201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ca6704357da4cdfb40cb17f477d2201\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My understanding is that there is a requirement for the Clerk to call the third reading, at which point it becomes an order of the day and we proceed from that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb54affa0c24cc39aafa67d1d83e62f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is incorrect in that assumption. The Clerk is not required to call a third reading when the matter is being dealt with in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7d935d8d7c475893dc224464e91e2b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bfd2251b292464e81558eaed9324890\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I am finishing my comments. From the moment I have said the bill is set down for its third reading forthwith, the next thing is for the Minister to take the call. There is no Clerk involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227c3c50d5df3a45809992c7fb767ec4c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c3c50d5df3a45809992c7fb767ec4c3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I move, That the third reading of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill be discharged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d363a34a59d4354b6735863820efe86\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: That motion fails for the same reason as the member\u2019s motion to have the matter deferred, because it is not an order of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f7203408864401b01991adcc75ebf6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say it was an order of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb690379a31142d79335b5d0b34f0e94\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is trying to amend the sheet that we have agreed to. We have agreed in urgency that the order is set and it has been agreed to by the House. We simply go on to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022adca0fb77f9e45ca87f6b3766c364372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adca0fb77f9e45ca87f6b3766c364372\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you will be aware that it is within the ability of the House to postpone matters, even under urgency, or to discharge matters under urgency. The fact that we have agreed to consider them does not mean that we have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f01153a7904593a717698e70222988\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest to the member that if it was the will of the House to alter the House\u2019s resolution, passed by majority by notice from the Government, regarding the order of urgency, the only method that the member has to do that is by leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252477a6089964b138f6bf5e4f5c6f43b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275aadcac3557440b99ea0dfc93c6d9eb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just consult the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123574ab520042c3b3f2c2e77d36fd94\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I can give you some help while you are doing that, if you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220156d3ca7f4c4df2b6bff3b1cd768a95\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is going to be helpful, the member can be helpful\u2014the normal definition of helpful, by the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226497ad88f1254485a05506f115183e9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226497ad88f1254485a05506f115183e9e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am trying to be helpful. Quite often when business is being done under urgency, the Government and the House\u2014because in the end it is the House that makes the decision, normally on the initiation of the Government, but possibly on the initiation of this sort of motion\u2014decide that it will pull out. I think you will remember on a number of occasions in the past when a Government has had a long list of bills that it has chosen to vary the order of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EEven with motions or legislation that has been agreed and set down, there is no obligation for us to proceed in that particular order. That was essentially the choice that was being given to the House, with the two motions. One was that it be postponed. Of course if it is an urgency motion and it is postponed, then we come back to it with an urgency motion. But, of course, if the bill is discharged, it means that it goes away completely. I put it to you that there have been many occasions when the House has made that choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d807e08e89943d7bca3166b5a4d8fcd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I draw the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 13/5, a decision by Speaker Kidd, a very learned Speaker and one whose decision we should follow: \u201CA motion to discharge an order of the day and refer a bill to a select committee was ruled out of order where the House had accorded urgency to the passing of the bill.\u201D It seems to me that that is very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0b950ef089f407b9bba90c2ed1ca0d8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not sending it to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227691be5d93b941b9bad63f81dd82d247\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The point that I am making to the member is simply this. When the House has decided on urgency and a list of bills to be considered, those bills are then on the Order Paper. The member cannot move a motion to discharge or alter the order of the Order Paper in that manner. The motion is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002261a1788509f7415a94688e12ab47ba66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a1788509f7415a94688e12ab47ba66\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There then arises a very real question of how it is ever possible for the House, having accorded urgency to a set of matters, not to proceed or to review the order. It is something that has been regularly done over a period, and I accept it is much more often done on the motion of the Government. In fact, I think you set the bill down for third reading forthwith, and on occasions bills are set down for third reading presently, and that is often done on a nod or a wink from the Government, but there has always been flexibility. The Leader of the House can choose to pull out before we are finished. That is a choice. The House can choose to vary the order. It can choose not to proceed with particular pieces of legislation. I accept that a bill cannot go back to a select committee. There was never a suggestion that this bill would go to a select committee. I can remember the ruling; I think I might have been involved in having the ruling set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022626d826e40ef44a8bd86c533f1ed3b31\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Kidd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6e74fde8674c6e9d0e11497955be79\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It was Mr Kidd, yes. I was probably standing about here at the time. The point I am making is that especially around the postponement motion, I do not think you can argue that this is not an order of the day. It is an order of the day that has been set up by the urgency motion. I can accept that it is not a debatable motion. It is fair to say that I might have taken the liberty in my support of the motion. You might just rule out the discharge motion, on the basis of the urgency motion, but postponement within an urgency motion does not contradict the urgency motion. It is consistent with it. It is a matter of order, not a matter of discharge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260956bb039b44178a3ba66527f802873\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I draw the member\u2019s attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 12/4, which states: \u201CAn urgency motion does not set out a binding order of business in the sequence named. It is indicative. It is open to the Government to vary the order.\u201D The Speaker has ruled that it is up to the Government to set the order. The matters on the list are complete. It is not open to the member by way of motion to have the bill discharged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225508a773ebf746aa8b528b8986cd5931\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Where does it say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da210fc2d25456fac4801b4dc4b314d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker Kidd said that it is up to the Government to decide. I have been advised by the Clerk, just to reconfirm what I said before, that the motion to discharge is out of order because it has been agreed to pass the legislation in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea01e56b07144c6bb70d9e81069a159\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I have sort of accepted that. It is the postponement one that I am concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e9322c53c54825bfc82b20d9f8f563\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: In my opinion, postponement is in the same nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002289c9898e0b3248a086bf36ee6ccbad14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289c9898e0b3248a086bf36ee6ccbad14\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is absolutely serious. My understanding is that the House is the master of its own destiny, with regard to these matters. You are absolutely right; the Government can decide the order. That has been well ruled on and well used by Governments during urgency in the past, at those times. What is not clear is that there is no ability for the House itself to take the decision, either by way of leave or by way of non-debatable motion, in order to reorder business. I think it is fair to say that from the research I did in preparing for this motion, I thought the discharge was in contradiction to an already agreed position of the House. I could find nothing to indicate that a postponement was such.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221437999de615457580c8d71803cb4e70\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is asking me to make a ruling, I will make a ruling. My ruling is that if the member wishes to have a bill postponed, then the only avenue the member has for that is by way of leave. The member does not have available to him a motion of the House to postpone the bill. That is the only avenue. The House has decided that this is the business to be done, and, having made that decision, the House\u2019s decision stands. If the member wanted to put that amendment, he should have done it at the time the urgency motion was put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022110d8e16bde14e33bc0b74cd12523a61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022110d8e16bde14e33bc0b74cd12523a61\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is wonderful advice, but I think you know that the urgency motion is not an amendable motion; therefore, that option is not one that is available to members at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182341a37e2d4a3b846ddb3a38f702d1\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It backs up the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d450d9331a89492a8fa2c798f6b575ca\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I take the interjection from the Hon Gerry Brownlee that that simply reinforces the point. If the motion is put, it is either carried or not carried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002245cd4a2c74974b319ff237a7e4ba8f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245cd4a2c74974b319ff237a7e4ba8f4f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to have the bill deferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61577243444484b954db52e0dda12d8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f3bcc0bd3a245fb9db7f4eeb375a563\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5fdae83dac2494e9eaa271c3cd3783e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5fdae83dac2494e9eaa271c3cd3783e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: I move, That the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. Improving the integrity and fairness of the tax system was well signalled by the Government as part of the package of tax reforms announced in Budget 2010. Those reforms give New Zealanders greater choices in working, saving and investing, by putting more money into their pockets through lower tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe measures contained in this bill further deliver on that promise of a fairer, more transparent tax system, by strengthening parts of the GST rules to prevent so-called phoenix schemes while clarifying other areas where time and the complexities of business have resulted in uncertainty about how the rules should be applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIn reporting back to the House, the Finance and Expenditure Committee recommended a number of very worthwhile technical changes to the bill to further clarify the scope, definitions, and timing of certain issues under the proposed new rules. Further to these changes, the bill now incorporates a number of significant new measures introduced by way of Supplementary Order Paper 187. The bill we see today is the result of very constructive public and private sector collaboration, forged during open consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI would like to express, on behalf of the Minister, my thanks to all those involved in bringing this bill to its third reading. Now, with great pleasure, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00224d8a49ab1ed743b2abf486781886252c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d8a49ab1ed743b2abf486781886252c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Who would have thought that shortly after 9 this morning, when we commenced debate on this bill, we would be here at about 9 tonight, still debating the same bill? That is occurring for two very simple reasons. One of the very simple reasons is the Leader of the House. The other very simple reason is that this bill is a blatant abuse of process. It is an abuse of the House, because the speech the Minister read but did not understand is a speech about the bill as introduced. That was a speech about the bill that was considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. That was a speech about the bill that was put out for public submissions. It had nothing to do with the 60 or 70 percent of this bill that was introduced under urgency at the eleventh-hour by Supplementary Order Paper. Not only was it 70 percent of the content but it was about 95 percent of the value by tax revenue. It is the Supplementary Order Paper that introduces fundamental structural amendments that impact over $2 billion a year of tax loss, which is currently funnelled through loss attributing qualifying companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is the amendments and not the bill that take the current loss attributing qualifying company rules and introduces an entirely new class of company called the look-through company, which represents a very timid step in the direction of making it less easy for corporate arbitrage to write off company tax losses on personal income. It possibly would have been a measure that one day could have been supported by other parties, had it been through proper scrutiny. But the reason we are opposing this bill tooth and nail in the House today is that the Government, by malice and intent, has denied the public of New Zealand the opportunity to participate in that debate. It has denied the public of New Zealand the opportunity to participate in that debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis is a totally inappropriate misuse of parliamentary process, and in my view it was made worse, not better, by the lame excuse of the Minister of Revenue, who said that just because it had been announced in the Budget and a discussion paper had been put out, it was legitimate, somehow, to bring provisions to the House by Supplementary Order Paper. I am afraid that that is not so. As a matter of simple logic, to do that for this bill would entitle any Government to do that for any tax bill, because very few affect more revenue than this amendment does, at $2 billion. If that is the case, then we could kiss goodbye the generic tax policy process that is one of the most valuable institutions of our fiscal tradition. It has been respected across both sides of the House, and across multiple bills, for many years, but this Supplementary Order Paper undermines that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe loss attributing qualifying company issue, of course, has dominated the substance of the debate, and it dominates three parts\u2014over 70 pages\u2014of the amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228059444d252448f2a392f907589b8c07\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Has the member got an LAQC?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ce412c359b4616a739e5ded15806da\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member does not have a loss attributing qualifying company. Has that member got one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4d3e0cf48384107958aa3c686233e6a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04eb90910ac4d42a46956469eea9a1e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, jolly good! Well, enough Kiwis do, I tell Mr Brownlee, to avoid $2.5 billion worth of tax, and that is why we care about it, because his Government is running a $13 billion per year deficit, and the Government could do with some of that, if it could bother to clamp down on the avoidance. But because the Government has not done so, and because it has not given the public or the business community the opportunity for a fair say, Government members will be here all weekend with their paltry list of pre-Christmas rushed legislation\u2014all weekend, because the Leader of the House has screwed up the process. He has overloaded the urgency motion, and he has allowed his Minister of Revenue to introduce a totally inappropriate Supplementary Order Paper. It is one thing for the Minister to make that mistake; it is entirely another for the Leader of the House to fall for the pressure, no doubt from officials through the Minister, that that just had to be done. Well, it did not have to be done, and it will not be done easily, because members of the Labour Opposition will fight this bill\u2014and have fought the bill\u2014clause by clause, part by part, and line by line to the utter limits of parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill also deals with the matter of GST and the opportunity for zero-rating some transactions. That has allowed\u2014and the Speaker has ruled in terms of scope\u2014debate about the zero-rating of other forms of goods and services, most notably fresh fruit and vegetables. New Zealanders in their homes and in their workplaces know that these are tough times, these are tough years. Household budgets are under pressure, and it is just this week that we have learnt some important new facts: the average household is $30 a week worse off than it was last year, by $18 per average income earner. We know now that for seven straight quarters, annualised GDP per capita has gone backwards\u2014that is, real income\u2014which means that average Kiwis are worse off today than they were when this National Government was elected. They are worse off today than when this National Government was elected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat is why the polls overwhelmingly show that nobody buys the public relations spin from the Beehive about the tax that has made them better off. They do not buy it, because it is not true. They do not buy it, because they know that they might have 10 bucks in the wallet, but the groceries are costing 30 bucks, the power bill is costing 5 bucks, and so on and so forth. There is no relief in this bill; even though it empowers the zero-rating of GST, it contains no help for hard-working Kiwi families, and that is why Labour is going to bring that help. That is why Labour will deliver GST zero-rated fresh fruit and vegetables. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill talks about KiwiSaver, but it takes no opportunity to restore the cuts this Government has so short-sightedly made to the single most successful savings scheme in New Zealand\u2019s history. It was the single most successful scheme, and was undermined by this Government when it cut employer contributions and Government incentives in half. For that reason, the rate of growth of the stock of savings has been reduced, and that is a very serious problem. Standard and Poor\u2019s is about to drop our credit rating because we have an appalling savings gap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat brings us full circle, because Standard and Poor\u2019s told us that we are not only bad savers but we are very bad investors. Because such savings that we did have, instead of being put into productive businesses that would create jobs and incomes\u2014things people say National once used to represent\u2014were put into housing. We effectively borrowed internationally to bid each others\u2019 house prices up. Why? One key reason was that there was a tax incentive to do it, and it is embedded in this bill and is still now perpetuated by this bill. There is a tax incentive that one could run a loss on a rental property and write it off not only against the future earnings of the property, which would be fine, but against the personal income of the owner or the shareholder. There is no logic, and there is certainly no economic rationale for that to be continued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo this bill, in summary, is a sham. It is a sham and it is a wasted opportunity. There was a good process at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. There was a good process in dealing with the original bill that made some amendments, made some improvements, and\u2014I give credit to the chairman of the committee, Craig Foss\u2014brought the committee to consensus. That consensus was shattered on Tuesday when this enormous Supplementary Order Paper was introduced. The Government introduced this enormous, short-sighted, wasteful, and redundant Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhy is it redundant? I tell members that when Labour returns to the Treasury benches in 2011 one of our first acts will be to crack down on tax avoidance, because, to us, in tough times personal responsibility means that everybody pays their fair share. That is the Kiwi way\u2014a fair suck of the sav, and a fair day\u2019s pay for a fair day\u2019s work. We all put our shoulders to the wheel in hard times to keep the truck moving forward. That means fewer outlets and fewer loopholes for fancy-pants corporate tax advisers and lawyers. We need to make those loopholes dramatically smaller. This bill had the opportunity to do that and it failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is a matter of deep regret to the Labour Opposition that although we have used every opportunity in this debate, we know in our heart of hearts that the scrutiny we have been able to give to the detailed technical content of areas of this Supplementary Order Paper has not been anywhere near adequate, relative to the importance of the subject matter. The reason for that is, of course, that they cross-reference back to four principal Acts. They have multiple connections and it would take an expert many, many weeks to follow their way through the chain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022caaffb9053ec43a498d78284abd118ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caaffb9053ec43a498d78284abd118ee\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow the member who has just spoken, David Cunliffe, on the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I say to him that maybe he should have saved his energy and his speech for a barbecue at St Marys Bay this summer. When Labour members find out the result of the 3 News poll this Sunday they will be organising barbecues in St Marys Bay, in Christchurch, or wherever they think they will find their next leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ETo come back to the bill, as it has already been stated on this side of the House, this bill will transform the taxation system in this country. Much has been made of the so-called phoenix fraud schemes that this bill is designed to address, and much has been said by members opposite about the Supplementary Order Paper. We all know that these measures were announced in Budget 2010. We know that they are being put forward in the Committee stage. Chief amongst those measures is the clarification of depreciation for non-residential building fit-outs, the grandparenting of depreciation loading, and the improvement of fairness of access to social assistance programmes. We know that, and members opposite do not disagree with what this bill says. This bill is about streamlining the tax system, creating jobs, and making a fair and equitable tax system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00224a116229f029463c90887a21861b0f41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a116229f029463c90887a21861b0f41\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the motion be amended be inserting the words \u201Cthis day 6 months\u201D after the word \u201Ctime\u201D. This bill is called the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. That implies that the bill is a taxation bill primarily concerned with GST and remedial matters. It makes sense. It is the title of the bill, it is what it is about, it is what was sent to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, it is what we talked about at that select committee, it is what we heard submissions on at that select committee, and it is what the last speaker heard and deliberated on at that select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EGovernment members spoke on the first and second readings of this bill. They gave full speeches and they spoke in support of it. However, in the time between the second reading and the deliberation in the Committee stage, a Supplementary Order Paper of 70 pages was introduced. The bill is 57 pages long. The Supplementary Order Paper is larger than the bill itself\u2014in fact this Supplementary Order Paper is larger than seven of the nine tax bills that have come before the House this term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289dbeb2a67c8409e85967854520e09fe\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afbdde7349e24b2fb605ff93b08c3a7a\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is larger than seven of those nine tax bills. Even more amazing is the fact that not one member opposite, not one National member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and not one National former member of that committee has taken a call in the Committee stage. We have been debating the Committee stage for nearly 12 hours\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3662be57b54413dbfdd79dff231b847\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17452f1cbb74532a61a7a3a6ffd16ca\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: We have been debating in the Committee stage for nearly 12 hours\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e28197ffe824659a9156eb9472489cf\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Twelve hours of nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288df7841bec84cc9b798bc7c62848069\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and not one Government member has spoken, except, now, Mr Gilmore. He has something to say. Let us hope that Mr Gilmore has something to say for longer than 2 minutes, because this bill and the amendments in the Supplementary Order Paper deserve that. They deserve more than the practice of members opposite standing up, saying: \u201CI support the bill.\u201D, and sitting down again. Mr Gilmore knows better than that. He has financial qualifications and he knows about the tax system. He knows that 130,000 legal entities are being rubbed out because of this Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI want to make two further points in my third reading speech. The first is that Labour might well have supported this bill if the Minister had undertaken proper process. The second point is that this is no way to pass tax legislation. The GST component in this bill related to zero-rating land purchases between GST registered parties, so it was quite a change. We are talking about zero rating, and therefore the bill probably deserved its title: the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. The zero-rating provisions remove the possibility of rogue taxpayers undertaking phoenix fraud. Labour supported those amendments. We supported this bill in its first reading, second reading, and during the select committee process. Everyone in this House supported that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EPart 2 concerns amendments to the Income Tax Act, and we supported that part in the first and second readings and at the select committee. Part 3 amends the Tax Administration Act 1994 and we supported that, as well. Part 4 makes amendments to the Income Tax Act and, yes, we supported that. Part 5 makes amendments to the KiwiSaver Act. Part 6 makes amendments to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act, and Part 7 makes amendments to other legislation. We also supported those amendments. Do members get the picture? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis is a pretty simple bill; it is a technical bill. As I said in my speeches in the first and second readings, and as my colleague David Cunliffe mentioned in his second reading speech, it is a technical bill\u2014one of those necessary bills that Labour supports. Labour members support good, common-sense, robust, and transparent legislation. That is what we are about. We support legislation that allows taxpayers ease in paying tax. We support legislation that simplifies tax legislation and adds a level of transparency. This is what we support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe supported the bill at the first and second readings, and through the select committee process. That is what we did, and we did so in good faith. Then what happened? On Wednesday evening when we were sitting in this Chamber we saw a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper dumped on the Table\u2014a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper to the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. What has this Minister been doing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister told us that these changes had been signalled, and we knew that. We knew that the changes had been signalled by the Tax Working Group, as the Minister pointed out. A discussion document outlined these changes, as the Minister pointed out, and the Budget also outlined these changes. Even within the Labour tax team we believed there should have been changes to the rules around loss attributing qualifying companies. We were not against working with the Government on changes to that tax regime. But what the Labour Party demands is transparency, consultancy, and accountability in tax legislation, and this is not what this bill has become. That is why we do not support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe original bill\u2014I was going to say the substantive part of this bill, but it is only 57 pages compared to 70 pages\u2014was introduced on 17 August. As I have pointed out, there has been plenty of time for the Minister to undertake consultation with his officials and with experts\u2014behind closed doors, because it did not happen in the select committee process. There has been plenty of time for the drafters to come up with a bill that the Minister could present to the House and to the select committee, and we could be debating it now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe thing about this bill is that if it had stayed in its original form\u201457 pages\u2014then the debate, instead of starting at 9 a.m. and finishing at 9 p.m., could probably have started at 9 a.m. and finished at 11 a.m. The debate would have taken 2 hours, not 12 hours. The reason it has taken 12 hours is that Labour rejects outright any tax bill that has not gone through the proper process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister followed the proper process to the drafting stage. He drafted a bill\u2014and a Supplementary Order Paper that could have been a bill, because, as I said, it was larger than seven out of the nine tax bills that we have seen before this House\u2014and then the bill was referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Then at the select committee Labour members, Green members, ACT members, M\u0101ori Party members, and National members got an opportunity to look at the bill, talk to their experts, talk to officials, and call for submissions from those who had not been originally consulted. So the Minister went halfway though the process and then stopped. He said that that was enough consultation. I contend that that is not enough, and the Labour team contends that that is not enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to taxation, it is only fair that the people of New Zealand have their say. The select committee will put ads in every major newspaper and it will tell New Zealanders their rights under due process. It will say that New Zealand citizens have the right to appear before a parliamentary select committee and give it their views on the legislation. What then happens is that members of that select committee. from all sides, every single party in this House, will take on board their recommendations and their submissions. We talk to officials, we talk to our expert tax consultant, and then we come up with considered opinions\u2014that is the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI contend that if that process had been followed, then this bill would have been passed more quickly. The Supplementary Order Paper, which would have been another bill, probably would have passed, but it would have passed with amendments, because there always are amendments. In every single remedial matters bill there are changes, because we always make changes and we always make sure that the bill is a lot more robust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe tax officials do a brilliant job. They hear what we say, they liaise with our consultant, and they say: \u201CYes, we hear what you say; this is good.\u201D This Supplementary Order Paper would have been a good bill if it had gone through the proper process, but it has not, and the people of New Zealand should be outraged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880cb4eaf67c432baf4ce3c4796f8ecc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to deal with a motion moved by Stuart Nash. The motion to amend the question that the bill be read a third time is not in order. It is ruled out of order as it is inconsistent with the decision of the House to accord urgency to the passing of the bill. This is also consistent with my previous ruling that a motion to postpone the debate is out of order as it is inconsistent with the decision of the House to accord urgency to the passing of the bill. I draw members\u2019 attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 12/2 by Speaker Jack in 1976: \u201CWhen urgency is taken for the \u201Cpassing\u201D of a bill, this means passing through all stages.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a469bbc101c7465e8cdb5b14769de36b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a469bbc101c7465e8cdb5b14769de36b\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the third reading of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. This has been a pretty ugly day for Parliament, if the truth be told. It has been pretty ugly for two reasons. Firstly, Parliament has basically been bumped. Secondly, someone has dumped a 70-page Supplementary Order Paper into Parliament this week. It is bigger than the bill that we are actually supposed to be addressing. They dumped it on Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe are not dealing with just the regular kind of bill. Anyone who has been on a Finance and Expenditure Committee for tax bills knows how complicated tax bills are and how much we rely on our expert advisers, whether from the Inland Revenue Department or the independent expert adviser, in order to understand tax bills. They are really, really complicated law. People probably do not know that generally it is the Parliamentary Counsel Office that writes law. The tax office has its own ability to write law; tax law is so complicated that there have to be people in the Inland Revenue Department who can write tax law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe problem for Parliament is that we are supposed to be voting on this giant amendment, and the truth is that hardly anyone in Parliament understands it. We may have a rough idea about what it means, but, given that we have only just got this 70-page Supplementary Order Paper, I doubt that anyone on the Government side of the House actually understands it, because they have just had it dumped on them. I think it is fair enough to say that most people in this House would struggle in the very short time that we have had this amendment to understand what it actually does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EParliament is being asked to vote on a very complicated law that it has only just received and has really had very little opportunity to understand. That is where we are today. That has resulted, of course, in Labour stringing the debate out no end. To those who have been listening\u2014goodness knows how they could bear it\u2014I say that Labour has strung it out as a protest, essentially, against the process. I think it has been pretty ugly, but I totally understand why Labour has done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Government has made a terrible abuse of process with this bill. I think of all the times when National was in Opposition and complained about process. This is a disgraceful process for making law in our country. It is actually shocking that at 8.30 on a Friday night we are sitting in this House dealing with a law that almost nobody in this room understands, yet a majority are about to vote in favour of. They have no idea what the bill will do, because they have never seen it before. The Supplementary Order Paper got dumped on them just now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn some ways it reminds me of making trade deals. Trade deals are a little like this. When trade deals are negotiated they are basically dumped on the public of New Zealand and the supposedly elected democrats have to rubber-stamp trade deals before they have any idea what they mean. It seems that the governing parties have learnt something from trade deal negotiations and have now applied it to tax law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that apparently the big accounting firms have been consulted about this tax law. The public\u2019s representatives have not been consulted about this tax law, and therefore the people of New Zealand have not, but National\u2019s favoured friends, perhaps Chapman Tripp and perhaps some of the other big accounting firms, have been consulted about this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230db3260f5854cedb916e727b7a67fcd\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Chapman Tripp\u2019s a law firm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9064e23b43f4141b3ec21c273abc027\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies to Mr Gilmore. Some of the big accounting firms like Deloitte have been consulted about this legislation. Possibly Chapman Tripp has been consulted; the law firms have probably been consulted as well. National is very close to the big accounting firms, the big law firms, and basically anyone who has a lot of money and might give it to National. Those big firms have been consulted, no doubt, about the content of this bill. The people who have not been consulted are the publicly elected representatives who have to vote on this bill tonight. They are the ones who have not had a chance to read what is in it and fully comprehend it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI find it most peculiar, when we think about the coercive powers that the State exercises. One of the coercive powers is the police power to detain people and so forth. But the other coercive power is to take people\u2019s money off them. That is one of the things that this Parliament has the power to do: it has the power, through taxation, to take people\u2019s money off them. One would think that the laws governing the taking of people\u2019s money would deserve special scrutiny. One would think that even for someone on the right-wing side of politics, the process of taking people\u2019s money off them through taxation\u2014a highly coercive process; if one does not give over the money, one gets thrown in jail\u2014would be especially deserving of close attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe have seen the depth of the cynicism in the National Party, the ACT Party, and, presumably, the M\u0101ori Party, although I do not know if the M\u0101ori Party will vote for the terrible legislation that is being hammered through the House tonight. It is disgraceful that the right-wing side of politics would vote for tax legislation that was dumped on Parliament and is being hammered through Parliament at 8.30 p.m. on a Friday before pretty much everyone in the House has had a chance to really get their heads around the whole thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI see Mr Boscawen from the ACT Party sitting there. He has complained bitterly and at some length about parliamentary process, the Electoral Finance Act, and all sorts of stuff. Presumably, he will vote tonight for a change to tax legislation that will coercively take people\u2019s money off them, in a bill that he himself will have hardly understood or had a chance to read but that has just been dumped on Parliament. How on earth is this good democratic process? It cannot be proper process for this Parliament to agree to vote for this bill tonight when almost nobody in the House understands what it means. Minister Paula Bennett claims she know what it means, but very few people have had a proper chance to have a good look at this legislation, because it was dumped on the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will not vote for the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. Had we had a chance to look at it further we may have, but it is being hammered through the House. I will also say that one of the great things about MMP is that the select committee process became much better than it used to be. That was one of the advantages of MMP. The Finance and Expenditure Committee has gone nowhere near the substantial contents of the bill, as inserted by the Supplementary Order Paper, because it was not allowed to look at it. It was kept secret by the Government, and now the bill is being hammered through the House tonight before anyone in the Finance and Expenditure Committee has had a chance to look at the Supplementary Order Paper. Perhaps some Government members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee will look at it, but the select committee as a whole has had absolutely no chance to see this giant Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI strongly urge anyone on the political right who has any concern about the way tax law is made to vote against a bill that is being hammered through the House in the middle of the night to make tax law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8206d314a5d42989c35e78b33dd0fc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8206d314a5d42989c35e78b33dd0fc3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Dr Norman is right: the ACT Party will support the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8d6a2ce63144e48563ae8d4326fad9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8d6a2ce63144e48563ae8d4326fad9\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Me p\u0113nei rawa te k\u014Drero he poto noa iho t\u0101ku ki te Whare. N\u0101 runga i te aha? N\u0101 runga i te mea, tuatahi, i w\u0101hi k\u0113 au m\u014D te roanga o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. K\u0101re au i konei, ka tahi. Ka rua, ehara au i te tangata m\u014Dhio ki ng\u0101 mea kaute nei. Ka toru, ko t\u0101 m\u0101tou tangata, wahine matatau ki t\u0113nei \u0101huatanga, a R\u0101hui K\u0101tene, ko ia t\u0113r\u0101 i \u0101ta titiro ki te h\u014Dhonutanga o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 take. Kua puta ia m\u014D te w\u0101 engari, ko t\u0101na i te mea, ko ia te mea i noho nei i runga i te komiti tikanga; i \u0101ta rongo ia i ng\u0101 piki me ng\u0101 heke, te wh\u0101nui, te wh\u0101roa o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, an\u0101, ka riro m\u0101na m\u0101tou e \u0101rahi. Ko t\u0101na, me tautoko i t\u0113nei w\u0101, \u0101, i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero katoa, ka mutu, ka riro m\u0101na e whakatau i te huarahi hei wh\u0101inga m\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. Koi nei m\u0101tau e t\u016B ake nei ki te tautoko i t\u014Dna k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I should state that this contribution of mine to the House will be only a short one. Why is that? Firstly, I was somewhere else for much of the contributions. I was not here. That is one reason. Secondly, I am one of those who is lacking when it comes to matters dealing with accountancy. Thirdly, our person who is an expert in matters relating to taxation, R\u0101hui K\u0101tene, the one who delves into matters like this on our behalf and at great depth, is not available at the moment. She is out on another matter. She leads us in matters like this, sits on the committee, hears and listens intently to the ups and downs, and the width and scope of talks. She advocates that we support the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill at this stage, and all contributions to it. In the end, it will be for her to resolve what path the M\u0101ori Party will pursue. That is why we rise in support of what she wants us to do.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u00229b113df2452745b28c0ee0f074b23247\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b113df2452745b28c0ee0f074b23247\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me enormous pleasure to stand for a very short, intense period to commend and support the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. It is a wonderful bill. It is a great day for the Government and a great day for democracy. Many good people will be very happy with the results of the bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220a3f730940844c028dbf580a2d434827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a3f730940844c028dbf580a2d434827\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Here we are on the third reading of the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill. The debate on the bill before us has descended into farce. The last three speakers typified the Government\u2019s view of the bill, and showed why we are debating at 8.30 p.m. on a Friday legislation that has been effectively superseded by a 71-page Supplementary Order Paper in the last 48 hours. The last three contributions really underscored the contempt that the Government is showing for Parliament, the process, and the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMr Boscawen, that well-known warrior for the rights of the people, provided in 12 words the entire contribution of the ACT Party in the Committee stage and the third reading debate. His contribution consisted of 12 words. He was followed by the M\u0101ori Party member. I regret I did not pick up the earpiece to listen to exactly what was contributed by the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s whip, but I would suggest that it was less than 100 words in respect of this most important legislation and the accompanying 71-page Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe tour de force, the cream on the cake, came from Aaron Gilmore, the list MP from Christchurch, the know-it-all of the National Party. He contributed about 15 words on the bill. This debate would have been a great opportunity for Aaron Gilmore to stand up while the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery was in the House\u2014he may still be in the precincts\u2014because the bill, as I recall from earlier discussion in the Chamber, has a new clause in it, clause 28B on Supplementary Order Paper 187, regarding taxation treatment of government grants to businesses. I would have thought that was a very good opportunity for Aaron Gilmore to stand up. He would like to be a constituency MP in Christchurch. He hankers for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a08b5b5d9d4e3fa7f1b20e344f976b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, he doesn\u2019t. He\u2019s waiting for Eric to resign, because he\u2019s got fond memories of Bluff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c64808621bf44768646fe0ca862538f\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: He might have his eyes on constituencies further south, but in the interim at least he would like to be regarded as a potential electorate MP for Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI would have thought Aaron Gilmore\u2019s best opportunity would be to stand up, take a call, and say what the Government had done in respect of government grants to businesses in Christchurch that have been hit very hard as a result of the 4 September earthquake. Some support could have been provided under the bill, because the new clause 28B introduced on the just-seen 71-page Supplementary Order Paper provides for the tax treatment of government grants to businesses, including payments in the nature of a grant or a subsidy to a business, grant-related suspensory loans, and payments not in the nature of an advance or loan other than a grant-related suspensory loan. That mechanism on the Supplementary Order Paper provides somebody like Aaron Keown\u2014no, not him; he is the more widely known new member of the Christchurch City Council\u2014somebody like Aaron Gilmore, who would like to be a constituency MP in Christchurch, with his best opportunity to stand up and take a call on behalf of his family, who own and operate small and medium sized enterprises of the kind that have been knocked around by the quake in Christchurch. If a scan was taken now, I can tell members that small and medium sized enterprises across Christchurch would be seen to be reeling from the earthquake. They were looking for a mechanism to receive assistance, and it is there in black and white in the new clause 28B on Supplementary Order Paper 187. It is a mechanism for government grants to businesses, and it could have been picked up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMy colleagues are absolutely right: I think Gerry Brownlee will put that blue-ribbon seat in peril at the election, because he is failing. I am hoping that the Minister of Agriculture, another Christchurch MP, will take a call in this debate and tell us, as a member of Cabinet, how hard he fought to get some relief like the tax measures provided under the new clause 28B for his would-be constituents, the people he grew up with, the people in the Canterbury region whom he stood to represent. That clause provides for the taxation treatment of government grants to businesses, be they grants, subsidies, suspensory loans, or advances. There are four different mechanisms that could have been used to provide interim relief to the hundreds and hundreds of Christchurch and Canterbury businesses that are feeling absolutely abandoned by this Government, a Government that in most instances they probably voted for, and that they would have expected to give them some decent opportunities to make their businesses viable and keep them going in the interim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThey would have looked to the Government in the same way that farmers look to the Government. The next bill to be debated in the House relates to the kiwifruit industry, and $25 million of relief is being provided to the kiwifruit industry. I applaud the Government and the Minister for Biosecurity for doing that. Here we have a Supplementary Order Paper which provides a mechanism for the tax treatment of government grants to businesses, and that is exactly the sort of mechanism needed in Christchurch right now\u2014right now. If I had an indication from members opposite that they would ensure that there would be support for Christchurch businesses, I would be tempted to support them on this bill, but we will not hear it. I will bet $1 that we will not be hearing from any members opposite, because they are lions when it comes to issues at times, and they are lambs at other times. This is very much a lamb time for members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThey should be standing up and demanding that the Government support at the very least the very modest Canterbury Employers\u2019 Chamber of Commerce package, which could have benefited from clause 28B on Supplementary Order Paper 187. Those employers were envisaging some interim modest support. They were going to work in concert with Enterprise North Canterbury, which was seeking about $950,000. In total, Cabinet was being asked to tick off around $4 million worth of support, the kind of support that is envisaged by clause 28B. Instead, we got a derisory $100,000, to be shared with Kaiapoi, to promote Canterbury businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI wish the Ministers in the House tonight would take a call and tell us why we are not seeing that support, despite the mechanism in clause 28B. It is about time Ministers explained to the House why they will not stand up to support their constituency of small and medium enterprises. That constituency provides the jobs in Canterbury. Most of the employment comes from small and medium enterprises. They are asking for the sort of relief and support that is envisaged by clause 28B. The Government has the opportunity to put in place and use the tax treatment provided on the Supplementary Order Paper, but we are hearing nothing from members opposite. They are not taking calls, they are treating the House with contempt, they are treating Canterbury with contempt, and they will rue the day. They will rue the day, because people will not forget that at their time of need, when there was a mechanism of tax treatment available, the Government abandoned them. The Government abandoned the people of Canterbury at their time of need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister came down after the earthquake and said: \u201CWe will do whatever it takes to help you, Canterbury.\u201D That is on the record; that is what he said. I commend the Government for its early response. Peter Townsend from the Canterbury Employers\u2019 Chamber of Commerce came to the Government and within 5 days it was able to put in place a wage subsidy. I commend the Government for that; I acknowledge that it was very useful. But $15 million was budgeted for that, and do members know how much of that $15 million was spent? $12.5 million! It did not spend all of the money that was allocated. Here, under clause 28B on the Supplementary Order Paper to this taxation bill, is a mechanism that would allow the Government to support Canterbury\u2019s small and medium enterprises that are bleeding jobs for lack of cash flow, which is down by half, or more. They need assistance and support to get them through. The Christmas period is usually their bumper time, but people are not coming into the city and shopping. The cordons around the city are discouraging people, and they are staying away. More than that, every job that is lost in the central business district is compounding the impact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217bd6d7aac6f4fd0b529ce96409b243a\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Through the cordons of battle, according to \u201CBad Brendon\u201D! I agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b05d3ce98141dfa9256f21deb3ce23\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite\u2019s family businesses will not get the benefit of people being in the central business district and buying their shoes and their shoe linings, and having their shoes repaired. Those businesses are not able to get that support any more. They were looking to the Government, and the mechanism is there under clause 28B, but this Government has abandoned Canterbury at its time of need after a once-in-750-year earthquake. The mechanism is in the bill, it is there for the Government to use, but the Government has gone deaf on Canterbury. It has gone absolutely deaf, and I think it is despicable that as we head into Christmas we have a Government that has effectively abandoned the people of Canterbury and told them they are on their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ed0d15c7fc0460c9066e47db5c4cdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ed0d15c7fc0460c9066e47db5c4cdb6\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I support the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022939f2e78f62848e88575d961da9265a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022939f2e78f62848e88575d961da9265a1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I have to acknowledge the grand old man of Northland politics, Mr John Carter. The shortness of his speech is paving the way for him to go to Rarotonga next year, where members of the Golden Oldies rugby team may prevail upon him from time to time. I have to say that other characters who have washed up on those shores have not enjoyed a long and fruitful life, so I say kia t\u016Bpato to Mr Carter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cc861d93ef41f598f54500554ec274\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: What about size?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a10c19c133a5404bb652238f95c7c1dc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, there is Mr Gilmore, the man who wanders around Parliament humming: \u201CI\u2019ve been there, man; I\u2019ve been everywhere, man.\u201D That is his whole approach to his political contributions in this House, but I can tell members when he never does that: when Amy Adams gives him that withering look. She gives him that withering look after she has suffered the bumbling of the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Mr Foss; then the member freezes. She tried that look with Parekura Horomia\u2019s cousin, Hekia Parata, and came off second-best. That is why the latter is on the benches of Treasury and Amy has gone back to give more of those heartfelt speeches about Christchurch. There is a level of emotion where there are almost tears from the wreaths around this room, but she did nothing\u2014absolutely nothing\u2014in the context of her contributions to this bill to improve the prospects of the garden-variety families down there in Te Wai Pounamu, and around \u014Ctautahi, to receive any meaningful benefit just before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EEvery time we hear from Mr Aaron Gilmore, he gives everyone a DNA-based reminder that National should not ditch him and jettison him, along with the ACT Party members, who, during the time that we on this side of the House have been debating this bill, have wandered around the country, continuing to drive a racial wedge between God-fearing, friendly New Zealanders. Those members mistakenly think that while we are working on this arid topic doing the job of the Government, they can wander around because they are either too ill-informed or uninterested in earning their pay to make meaningful parliamentary contributions. Perversely enough, the newest member of the ACT Party will wake up and realise that she is occupying a similar sleeping space as Hone Harawira. With the level of extremism that they both bring, they deserve each other on that particular issue. But that is another matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill continues a host of issues that the select committee considered, and, regarding our contribution to it, we were quite relaxed in terms of support. We got sterling service from the members of the policy unit out of the tax department. If memory serves me correctly, once or even thrice we had the oracle, Mr Robin Oliver\u2014please spell that word in the right manner\u2014who generally knows everything about tax law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93c6a6d628445f1a0218f18f26d4097\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: About everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea914f2240b457dbefd2863864da7fc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I recall Helen Clark saying that Robin Oliver not only knew everything but also was a great contributor when the Government realised that as a consequence of entering into tax innovations it needed a solution to rationalise them. Mr Oliver probably did his greatest work in relation to Mr Tony Gibbs\u2019 innovation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA number of measures in this bill were designed as a contribution to simplify the administration of the GST system. I will not repeat the fact that there was an opportunity to lessen the burden of GST on our Kiwi families in their day-to-day toil. That was rejected. In addition, there was an opportunity to explain to New Zealanders, as a consequence of a sudden burst of enthusiasm through a Supplementary Order Paper, why the additional changes were needed. So it fell to this side of the House. As someone who grew up on a farm and has owned a bit of land from time to time, there is some sense in what is proposed in relation to the zero rating. However, what has blighted the discussions is there was an unwillingness on that side of the House to stand and gradually take us as a full House through why a number of these changes were dropped on the floor of the House in a virtual ambush fashion just before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill picks up and papers over the mistakes of the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. Several months ago, when other tax changes were made, there was an egregious omission reflective of the fact that there is great inattention and sleepiness on that side of the House. The Government ended up changing tax rates but forgot all about some of the neediest New Zealanders\u2014that is, those M\u0101ori families who have rights and interests in M\u0101ori trusts. Their tax rates should have been calibrated at that point in time. It was fixed up in the time that Labour was in power. It was a late contribution, but, nevertheless, a useful contribution. It is a shame that Te Ururoa Flavell made a decent rationalisation as to why he felt compelled to support this bill, given that Rahui Katene has provided most of the verbal leadership on the bill. She is now back on the seabed and foreshore issue, where, we understand, she is preparing to abandon her party and vote with our side of the House. Meetings are being held from Te Tau Ihu right through to Te Wai Pounamu. She is under intense pressure this evening because she now realises that she will lose that seat. That is why she is not here this evening to fulfil her responsibilities in respect of tax policy. Goodness knows what it is she could say that would make much sense in relation to filling the vacuum that has been evident on that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut, never mind, I and my colleagues, particularly Mr Mallard\u2014that stubborn campaigner\u2014have ensured that not a single measure or level of vacuum goes unattended in this House and in this debate. However, the M\u0101ori Party needs to take a lesson from the omission on their part that was fixed up by us: pay attention to the bread-and-butter issues, because that is what tax impacts on. It impacts on the lives of not only the corporate merchants, but also the daily people. Do they have enough buns at the end of the week? Do they have the ability to live within their budget? Many people, as a consequence of failed tax policy extended in many respects by that rather rushed job of a Supplementary Order Paper, will have a Christmas where they will be the casualties of a flawed tax policy. They will have a very meagre range of goods in the t\u014Dkena, in the stocking, of Father Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs we go beyond this point in our debates about tax, we cannot wait until we move into the new year and continually remind New Zealanders\u2014not as a consequence of Gerry Brownlee\u2019s foolish management of the House that we are stuck here on a Friday evening; members on the other side of the House are giving frightfully short speeches because they are angry that Gerry Brownlee has trapped them here\u2014that they will suffer because there has been a very impoverished view given by the Government as to how fiscal policy ought to be used to improve the lives of New Zealanders. Nowhere was that seen more lucidly than by the Governor of the Reserve Bank, Dr Alan Bollard, recently. He said to not place all the pressure on him as the architect of monetary policy, but blame those who hold the levers of fiscal policy. Fiscal policy is tax policy. Fiscal policy is revenue policy. When one shrinks one\u2019s revenue, when it is frittered away and enjoyed by a narrow economic caste who are already able to pay their way, and one removes from the pockets and wallets of needy New Zealanders those precious cents and dollars, one only makes their Christmas, their summer break, and, indeed, the year coming towards us a worse experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI tell New Zealanders to wait, as help is on the way. We have a host of very innovative and impressive policies that will address the ongoing failures of tax policy, in particular the perpetuation of privilege through nefarious structuring of property and other assets, including, as I was told today by Mr Cunliffe, recreational boats. I am very confident that the senior members of our team are bringing forward a set of policies that will enable New Zealanders to see that there will be a demonstrable change and a new trajectory. As a consequence of that, New Zealanders will be more secure, the country will be more prosperous, and those members will be held responsible for the poverty they are bringing through failed legislation such as this. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022c757e38a083e4137bfbb9dea9c9f6523\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c757e38a083e4137bfbb9dea9c9f6523\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E An excellent point to pick up from the Opposition member Shane Jones is the nefarious idea that Labour actually has some new policies. Let me back up the truck to just 3 or 4 days ago when the Leader of the Opposition delivered a much-hyped speech to Chapman Tripp, which was an unmitigated disaster. Not only was it a copy of Ed Miliband\u2019s speech, not only did Chris Carter\u2019s crew come out and make it an absolute disaster, not only did it take the mickey out of David Caygill, alias David Cunliffe, and not only did it include voodoo economics, but also the central part of the speech was about increasing the level of work that is done to bring about change to loss attributing qualifying companies and trusts. What are we doing in this bill, which the Opposition is voting against today? The Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill focuses totally on upper income New Zealanders, on Working for Families, on student allowances, on the community services card, and on people who structure their income to reduce their tax obligation. This legislation closes loopholes and increases the obligation of high-income taxpayers to pay tax, yet members opposite are voting against it. They came out with a policy on Monday; they are voting against it on Friday. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002272959bad067141afb4e1ac740ba34cea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef2ca0e19f7e4129a95cec3b3aa6aedc\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Law Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260bd532997bc426aa7d1db6726543c48\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6003b0db994fa0982d5e063c774b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6003b0db994fa0982d5e063c774b63\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee. The biosecurity system plays a vital role in protecting the things that we value most in New Zealand. New Zealand has developed a highly effective biosecurity system that is recognised as world leading, but the biosecurity system has also had to meet a greater and more complex range of challenges. It is against this context that the Government has introduced the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. The Biosecurity Act was progressive and forward-looking when it was passed in 1993, but the Act has not kept pace with the way that the biosecurity system has had to evolve and the new challenges it now faces. The bill will make a wide range of amendments to the Biosecurity Act and some related amendments to four other Acts. I would like to mention the key themes that run across the amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFirstly, we need to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the biosecurity system, and we need to make sure that resources are allocated according to the level of risk and are used to deliver the greatest level of protection possible. Secondly, we need to ensure that there is clarity around rules and responsibilities to promote partnerships and collaboration. Protecting New Zealand from biosecurity risk cannot be the role of Government alone. We need to ensure that we harness the combined efforts of others who are well placed to act, such as industry and regional councils. Thirdly, we need to future-proof the legislation so that it has the flexibility to allow the biosecurity system to continue to evolve over time. This is a very large bill and I have able to touch only briefly on the important amendments that it makes. I commend the bill to the House and look forward to seeing the recommendations of the Primary Production Committee in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d59e1331ecc942d89e521338fe63171a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d59e1331ecc942d89e521338fe63171a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, if that is how important biosecurity is to the National Government, it is pretty pathetic\u2014a bit like the Minister for Biosecurity\u2019s speech. If the Minister really thought that biosecurity was important, he would have made a substantive speech on the introduction of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill, which is quite substantive in its size. But we have yet to see how substantive it might be in its implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour will support this bill\u2019s referral to the Primary Production Committee because we believe that some improvements can be made to biosecurity and that there is a need to update the Biosecurity Act to bring it into line with new technology. However, if one reads the general policy statement in this bill, one will learn that it effectively says that we will do\u2014we the National Government\u2014more with less. I will go through the bill. If we read the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill carefully, we see that it rightly states\u2014and again, the Minister for Biosecurity, David Carter, made no attempt to say this\u2014that more than any other developed country, New Zealand depends upon the success of its primary industries and the biological systems that support them. Mr King knows that, but Mr Carter does not seem to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere is more complex biosecurity risk facing this country every single day. We have increased trade and we have increased flows of visitors into New Zealand. Both are things we welcome, but with that increase comes heightened risk. So we need to increase and improve the systems that secure our biological systems in this country. The general policy statement, in the explanatory note of the bill, states, of course, that there will be \u201Cclearer roles and responsibilities, and improved collaboration and partnerships\u201D\u2014a worthy objective, indeed. How could we ever criticise that? But the bill effectively shifts the focus back on to industries to take a greater share of the cost and the responsibility. That is where Labour will have some questions in the select committee. The explanatory note of the bill states that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry will \u201Cfocus its resources at the border on the passengers, baggage, cargo and mail that pose the greatest risk,\u201D. That is code for targeting, or, in other words, cuts. What the Government is attempting to do is to identify areas of high risk\u2014it is a great theory\u2014where resources will be targeted, but it will cut back in other areas of general risk. The question I have for the Government is whether the cuts will be worth it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour goes on record, quite proudly, as saying that when we came into power in 1999, $94 million was being spent on biosecurity, but we left office in 2008, $187 million was being spent on biosecurity, but we doubled the amount going into biosecurity because we understood its importance and the growing risk. What did the National Government do? In its first Budget it cut $2 million off the biosecurity budget, and it cut 54 front-line positions from Biosecurity New Zealand. It cut 54 front-line positions from the people who look for, assess, and astutely identify risk and potential pathways for unwanted pests, diseases, and organisms. Biosecurity New Zealand identifies literally tens of tonnes of goods every single year. There are 54 fewer people doing that across the country, and that is increasing the risk. We have not yet seen an increased commitment\u2014that fact was displayed quite clearly by the Minister\u2019s pathetic speech\u2014by the National - ACT Government to biosecurity and its heightened risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill does do a couple of good things. It shifts responsibility for oversight and management\u2014without actually saying how it will do it, of course\u2014in our exclusive economic zone. So we move our jurisdiction from 12 miles to 200 miles, and rightfully say that we should be assessing the vessels and the risk posed to New Zealand by economic activity in that area. We do have drilling rigs coming into the country from time to time\u2014less so now the National Government has destroyed economic opportunity, I have to say. But one drilling rig in particular was identified as having serious unwanted organisms attached to it, and it was a real dilemma. We rightfully said that we need a better system of notification, early warning, and assessment, and then the ability to deal with those craft coming into this country. We will have a mandate and a legal responsibility to go out to 200 miles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe next important step forward that I acknowledge in this bill is recognising ballast water and the potential risk and harm that poses to this country. It has been there for a long, long time as a risk. There has been an international convention on it. There is no law, but there is a convention on, and a general practice for, the transfer of ballast water in craft as they travel from one country to the other. So, for example, a craft might pick up goods in the harbour at Singapore\u2014and we can just imagine what might be in the water there, as craft come from all around the world to trade in Singapore\u2014and it might pick up ballast water, come on its merry way down to New Zealand to park up in Nelson, or Tauranga, or Auckland, and discharge its water, with all the risk that goes with that. We need a tighter regime to ensure that those risks are not transferred to New Zealand\u2019s biosystems. We have, as this Government has said, huge potential in aquaculture, and the risks posed by ballast water are huge, so we need to improve our systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill also deals with the \u201Cgood neighbour\u201D rules in terms of regional pest-management regimes. At the moment, regional councils are responsible for having pest-management regimes\u2014regional pest-management plans, to be precise. Regional councils deal with all the private land and any pests and weeds in that area. They have no ability to provide direction to the Department of Conservation over Crown land, for example. For the most part, in regions like the West Coast and the Tasman where there is a large amount of Crown-owned land in the Department of Conservation estate, there has been a good working relationship. This bill will change the law to ensure that there must be coordination between the regional pest-management plans and the oversight of that Crown land to ensure that we do not have unwanted pests transferring from Crown land on to private land and effectively undermining all the good work of the regional councils in that planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe other issue I must raise is cost sharing. The bill will mandate a shared-costs arrangement of the control of pests and organisms and incursions in this country. We have seen it most recently with Pseuodomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) in the kiwifruit industry, where the industry will pick up 50 percent of the costs of control of that and the Crown will pick up the other 50 percent. That is not bad in principle, but I today I picked up a report in a horticultural magazine that said there are small horticultural niche groups that have no funds to do fifty-fifty arrangements with the Crown. So what happens if a visitor brings into the country an unwanted pest or organism that affects asparagus, for example, and the asparagus industry is expected to pick up 50 percent of the cost? It sounds like a fine theory. There will be many issues that the Labour Opposition members of the select committee will be teasing out, testing, and challenging the Government on. It is important that we do not end up with a dysfunctional and ineffective system to control pests and diseases if they come into the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELabour will support this bill\u2019s referral to the Primary Production Committee. There are many issues we will be challenging the Government on. Biosecurity is a vital area for the New Zealand economy, and we do not believe that the Government has the commitment, the funding, or the determination to do it properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002281f1f3b9e9b64ddba4be08b6505daf2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f1f3b9e9b64ddba4be08b6505daf2c\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to receive the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. It was also a pleasure to listen to members on the other side of the House acknowledge the comprehensive framework that the bill builds. It is very long overdue. We know that the Government has demonstrated its commitment to biosecurity with the way it responded to the Pseuodomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae outbreak in kiwifruit. It was very different from the hand-wringing we saw from the old, tired Labour administration, which was unable to sort out other issues such as the varroa bee mite. It gives me great pleasure to support this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220f44135257654bf1b76d25121d2f05ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f44135257654bf1b76d25121d2f05ee\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will try to take most of my time allocated tonight to do justice to this important bill, the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill, unlike the two Government members who have spoken, including the Minister for Biosecurity, who did not take his full opportunity to outline why he wants to see this important legislation passed, after scrutiny by the Primary Production Committee. I applaud the seriousness that the bill applies to the considerable threats of incursion and pests to our nation. We make our living as a nation off our land; therefore, the risks that are posed by pests that come in are enormous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ELabour is very much in support of this bill. Biosecurity threats and technologies have changed significantly in the past 10 years or so, and we acknowledge that the legislation needs to be overhauled to take account of technology and reflect those changes. We support the change in the bill to broaden the scope of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s biosecurity powers, which will hopefully allow it to operate more efficiently and effectively. Those are issues to be supported, applauded, and aerated in this House by members who will take the time available to Parliament to discuss them, unlike the two Government members who have spoken to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe support this bill and we acknowledge, of course, that the most recent incursion we have faced is the Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) outbreak in the kiwifruit industry. For those members who are not aware, the kiwifruit industry is a nearly $1 billion export industry for this nation. It is a huge export earner for New Zealand and it is truly important. I want to acknowledge the great response that the Government has led, along with the kiwifruit industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe previous Labour Government took biosecurity seriously. We more than doubled the vote, from about $94 million in 1999 to $187 million by 2008. However, given the reliance on it we have as an export-led nation, it has been disappointing to see this Government make cuts to biosecurity staff. I have spoken informally to biosecurity staff who tell me that the cuts have meant that they are letting through people whom they would not normally be letting through. Staff are standing there at times overloaded with work as planes come through in a bundle, and they are letting through people whom they know in their heart of hearts should be put through more scrutiny and checks. When there is only a handful of staff working and a couple of jumbos are coming through, they can do only what they can do. Therefore, we are already taking risks with our biosecurity. It is very fraught. We have an open border. We receive enormous tonnages of imports. They come into the country in containers, only a handful of which are inspected. We have to do things on a threat-risk basis, and that is understood, but the thin green line has got thinner as a result of this Government and it should be taking account of the risks it is posing on us as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI am well aware of the threats that are posed. I was living in Marlborough when the Ross River virus was discovered in a tiny part of Marlborough, the Vernon Lagoons area, which is one of the most beautiful parts of that beautiful province. An enormous project went in to capture the salt marsh mosquitoes that carried the Ross River virus. That effort was great to see because the risks were very considerable and it would have been a disaster if that virus had taken hold in the rather balmy climate of Marlborough, out there on the Vernon Lagoons. Some years earlier, we saw a spraying regime across Auckland to combat the painted apple moth, and that was highly appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI note the investment that the Government has made in countering the Psa threat in the kiwifruit industry, with $25 million almost instantly found to deal with the issue. I have to say that the response was very well coordinated. It was swift and it was well communicated. I can only ask David Carter, the Minister of Agriculture, to please take over the earthquake recovery portfolio as well because we need that sort of leadership. At the moment, things are going backwards in Christchurch in respect of the response of the Government to the earthquake. We saw a pitiful package last week. We wish we could get a $25 million package announced to assist Christchurch businesses, which are reeling from the onslaught of the earthquake and its impacts. The ramifications of that lack of funding will be with us for a long, long time, especially if nothing is done in the interim as Christmas approaches. I note, though, that it is great to see $25 million allocated to fight Psa. It is good to see a Minister providing leadership, getting the industry together, and getting a commitment from the industry to put together a $50 million package. But I contrast that with the $100,000 in real cash found for the Christchurch business community, where jobs are bleeding because of the impact of the quake and the drop in turnover. Businesses are often experiencing half the turnover that they had before the 7.1 magnitude quake on 4 September. I just wish David Carter could be in charge of that portfolio. I am sure he could stand up in Cabinet for the people of Canterbury as a Canterbury-based Minister and MP, and tell Cabinet that it needs to do more. I hope he continues to do that. I hope he does not let Bill English take hold with his very trenchant approach to these issues and his fear for precedent, because that will see hundreds more jobs lost in the Christchurch business community and hundreds more businesses having to close for want of a small and judicious intervention by the Government at the time of a once-in-750-year event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe response to the Psa issue has been great. It is what we need when we are a nation that earns its living from exports like kiwifruit. The risks of incursions are enormous. If something took hold in, say, the dairy industry, we would be talking about a risk to an $11 billion industry, and the sheepmeat industry is worth a couple of billion dollars, so there are huge risks posed. That is why we are supporting this legislation. It is appropriate and timely. We have concerns about the cuts to biosecurity staffing, but there is still the opportunity for the Minister to make some amends in respect of that. Obviously, the package that he has brought together for the Psa outbreak is an example of the leadership he can provide when he puts his mind to it, talks to his Cabinet colleagues, and extracts $25 million. That is the sort of response demanded for biosecurity, and I say to him that he needs to reconsider the cuts to biosecurity staffing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis bill will not cause much controversy. It has been progressed in an appropriate fashion. Even if we are sitting at quarter past nine on a Friday night under urgency, at least the Minister has had the decency to refer the bill to the Primary Production Committee at the conclusion of the first reading debate. That is what we want to see. The select committee process provides the opportunity for input and expertise to be aerated round a committee table. We want to hear from people involved in the biosecurity industry, from people who are making their living from primary production and who are most at risk if we have a serious biosecurity incursion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge the need for change. Technology is moving rapidly. We are seeing things such as SmartGate coming through, which relies on our good friends in Australia to do some of the border checks for us. Everybody wants to be able to move more rapidly across borders, which is a given, but risks come with that and we need better biosecurity screening and operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I come back to Psa. The potential cost of Psa was around $75 million to the industry. The Government has indicated that it is at its point of finality with the offer of $25 million, and that is fair enough. The industry is obviously coming to the party. It is doing its best, but it is clear that we are facing very real threats to our kiwifruit industry in various parts of the country, most particularly in the Bay of Plenty but in other parts as well. The cost to New Zealand underscores why biosecurity is so important to our nation. We make our living off the land. We are a nation with a reputation for being clean and green. Obviously, people who are buying our produce expect it to be premium. That means that it cannot be tainted by disease or by anything else, and that is why Labour is supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe commend the Minister for bringing it to Parliament and allowing the bill to be sent to the select committee, unlike other legislation we have been debating this evening. That is the appropriate process, and the Minister earns brownie points, in our view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI finally say that I wish the Minister would talk to his colleague the Minister for Earthquake Recovery in order to win for the Canterbury business community the amount of money earmarked to fight Psa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00227c8d9c46060b46b89da07f802d0de1bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c8d9c46060b46b89da07f802d0de1bc\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. The Green Party strongly supports the statement in the explanatory note of this bill: \u201CBiosecurity is critical to New Zealand\u2019s prosperity and way of life. More than any other developed country, New Zealand depends on the success of its primary industries and the biosecurity system that underpins them. The biosecurity system also protects the native plants and animals and other resources that are taonga to Maori and precious to all New Zealanders.\u201D We are now used to hearing about biosecurity incursions into New Zealand on a pretty regular basis: Psa, varroa mite, didymo, kauri dieback disease, Undaria, painted apple moth, southern saltmarsh mosquito, and so on. The incursions we have already had have cost us hugely, but these are nothing compared to some of the risks that we need to guard against: foot-and-mouth disease, for example, or various fruit flies, as Horticulture New Zealand warned yesterday. In the face of these major threats there is no doubt that our old Biosecurity Act was no longer fit for purpose, and the Green Party welcomes this attempt to bring it up to speed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe support most of the provisions of the bill. The biosecurity information database and the national policy direction from the Minister for Biosecurity are good, common-sense measures. We particularly welcome the extension of our biosecurity regime to our full exclusive economic zone, consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and ratification of the International Convention for the Control and Management of Ships\u2019 Ballast Water and Sediments. One of the limitations of our existing unsophisticated biosecurity measures is that we worry most about what we can see. My colleague Kevin Hague has often spoken in the House about the near complete absence of adequate measures for responding to risks from microscopic organisms. The same principle applies to places that we do not usually see, such as remote terrestrial areas and underwater environments distant from our shores.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe have mixed feelings, and look forward to hearing the submissions, about the provisions for distributed responsibility for biosecurity management. A more cooperative approach has some potential to extend the biosecurity net and improve outcomes, but it also has the potential to blur lines of responsibility and carries many of the conflict-of-interest risks of self-policing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe bill also codifies the Government\u2019s current approach of targeted risk management, and in some ways this is the nub of the bill. With an inevitably limited budget and potentially uncapped risk, targeting resources to the highest risks is the only approach to take. In 2009, about 104 loaded incoming shipping containers were checked for biosecurity risks each day. That is about 9 percent of those coming into the country, leaving about 386,850 shipping containers unchecked over the course of a year. Maybe the highest-risk 9 percent are checked\u2014they certainly should be\u2014but that is a huge amount of uncontrolled risk. It is also essential, but absent from the bill, that we act to minimise risk by minimising the import of goods that pose risk. Again, as the bill\u2019s explanatory note states: \u201CGlobalisation and changes in transport technologies have resulted in greater and more rapid trade and travel and the development of new trade and travel routes. While this is positive for New Zealand\u2019s economy, it exposes us to greater and more complex biosecurity risk.\u201D The Green Party says that that is an unacceptable approach. The Government proposes no measures at all to try to reduce, let alone minimise, the biosecurity risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn fact, the situation is even worse than that. The bill explicitly makes biosecurity law subject to the limitations of international trade agreements. That provision is in new section 100G(5)(e). The clause talks about imposing levies for the purposes of having pest-management plans. Pest-management plans are the plans for the eradication management of pests. These can be either national or regional. The Government has given itself the power to impose a levy for the purpose of funding a pest-management plan, but it has made it explicitly clear that we cannot actually introduce such a levy if it is in breach of our international trade agreements. This means that the Government\u2019s free-trade agenda not only poses increasing risk that we need to try to deal with because of ever-increasing volumes of imports, all of which could carry pest species, but also will compromise New Zealand\u2019s ability to respond to that risk in our own domestic biosecurity law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThat means that despite the good things that the bill would achieve, the surrender of our biosecurity sovereignty, which the Government proposes, means that we cannot possibly support it. The increasing trade volumes, and therefore the biosecurity risk associated with free-trade agreements, are well known, and they will be looked back on as a kind of collective madness. Our free-trade agreement with China has already delivered 77 percent of imported shoes containing fungi, bacteria, and plant material, and garlic infested with fungi. We now have free-trade agreements with countries where foot-and-mouth disease is endemic. This bill proposes to limit our ability to take all possible steps to combat the inevitably increasing risk from those countries. A foot-and-mouth incursion could cost 20,000 jobs and reduce GDP by $10 billon over 2 years. The stakes are very high indeed and we need to face them without a hand tied behind our backs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis is not the first area where the Government\u2019s headlong rush to embrace free-trade agreements has been identified as posing an erosion of New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty by limiting our ability to determine domestic law. One could think about the current Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations, which include Malaysia. Malaysia has foot-and-mouth disease, and we currently import palm kernel expeller from Malaysia in huge quantities. Upwards of many thousands of tonnes of palm kernel expeller come in from Malaysia. Foot-and-mouth disease can be dormant in soil and can be carried in soil. The palm kernel expeller in Malaysia sits on the ground and then is scooped up with large amounts of soil before it is loaded in ships and sent to New Zealand. So our exposure to foot-and-mouth via palm kernel expeller is quite real and is actually a genuine biosecurity risk. However, this bill says that New Zealand cannot introduce levies to manage these kinds of risks if they breach our free-trade agreements. This bill says that whatever we sign up to in the Trans-Pacific Partnership will restrict our own ability to pass sovereign domestic biosecurity law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will participate constructively in the select committee process to help improve the bill and looks forward to hearing the submissions from the New Zealand public. But we tell the House now that we will not support a bill that compromises New Zealand\u2019s ability to do everything possible to protect this country from biosecurity risks and threats, and neither should any other party. The New Zealand that would be the logical result of this bill\u2019s preparedness to compromise biosecurity in the interests of free-trade agreements is one of globalised pests, diminished biodiversity, and the faded, degraded greyness of the globally standard environment\u2014not our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022f873db4cebdd476a9655ab223bf36e0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f873db4cebdd476a9655ab223bf36e0f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party will be supporting the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill and commends it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1803d7aeaef490eae828a3fd0c7acf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1803d7aeaef490eae828a3fd0c7acf6\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Te roa hoki o t\u0113nei r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all once again tonight. What a long day this has been.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is based on the premise that biosecurity is critical to New Zealand\u2019s prosperity and way of life, as expressed already by a number of members of the House. I have to say how positive it is to come to a bill that up front, in the first few paragraphs of the explanatory note, expresses commitment to a biosecurity system that protects the native plants and animals and other resources that are taonga to M\u0101ori, as expressed by Green member Russel Norman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn fact, it is almost a consistent theme throughout the bill that effective and efficient instruments and measures are needed to prevent, reduce, and eliminate the adverse effects of harmful organisms on the relationship between M\u0101ori, our culture, our traditions and our ancestral lands, waters, sites, w\u0101hi tapu, and taonga, and this is only right. We hope that such recognition will also be mirrored in the national policy statement on indigenous biosecurity so that the protection of significant vegetation and the significant habitats of indigenous fauna is seen as a matter of national importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe production of a national policy statement on indigenous biodiversity, the House may recall, is yet another of the already significant gains achieved as a part of the agreement between the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party on the emissions trading scheme in 2009. The other important connection that must be made in the context of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is to read this legislation in the understanding that the Waitangi Tribunal is expected to release its report soon on the Wai 262 Treaty claim on indigenous flora and fauna and on M\u0101ori cultural and intellectual property, which is known informally as Wai 262. I take the time to point out all of these connections because I want the House to know that when we talk about biosecurity, we are also talking about biodiversity, intellectual and cultural property, and, of course, the relationship with tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s unique flora and fauna holds special significance for M\u0101ori, and of that there should be no doubt. Protecting New Zealand\u2019s indigenous biodiversity is of great significance to M\u0101ori as kaitiaki. For the M\u0101ori Party, we have followed these commitments through to our policy statements. Our policy describes our commitment to keeping our natural resources and environment healthy, safe, and intact for everyone and for future generations. We specify also the need to promote freedom from ecological destruction. Yet, when we think about the recent crisis in my electorate of Waiariki and the need to introduce an aggressive containment strategy for Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) for kiwifruit vines, it is blatantly obvious that, despite the best intentions of all our parties, we are still vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe last time I was briefed by Hemi Rolleston, the chief executive of Te Awanui Huka Pak Ltd, the numbers were not looking all that flash\u2014103 orchards have now been issued with a restricted notice by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and 100 orchards have had Psa confirmed. The majority of the Psa-positive orchards are within a 23 kilometre area south of Te Puke township. Psa-positive tests are also coming back from orchards based in Hawke\u2019s Bay, Tauranga, Whakat\u0101ne, Waikato, Golden Bay, Motueka, and Gisborne. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI really want to acknowledge the impact that this crisis has made not just throughout my electorate but on the wider industry. The more severe impacts on vine health forces some serious impacts on the industry as it adapts to cope with Psa in the future and, indeed, with the inevitable impact on production and sales. My colleague Rahui Katene also tells us of experiences\u2014again, as discussed by Dr Russel Norman\u2014in the Marlborough Sounds where some things like a particular seaweed have come in on the hulls of ships and even on yachts that arrive from overseas. The vessels are then cleaned at local marinas and, before we know it, there is a biosecurity risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are determined to support any move to ensure the protection of our flora and fauna. A failure to put appropriate measures in place will put a wide range of primary industries at risk of contamination\u2014a risk that we can ill afford. But the critical issue is how we do this. The M\u0101ori Party believes that a fundamental basis to biosecurity law reform would be to ensure that a Treaty clause is included in the legislation. We appreciate the legislative changes that are being introduced in the bill. They will enable amendments to improve and modernise the biosecurity system. The amendments will promote more effective and efficient biosecurity, encourage partnerships in the management of biosecurity risks, and provide flexibility to enable future improvements. But we also want to see this Government and subsequent Governments recognise and provide for the role of tangata whenua as kaitiaki when developing and implementing regional policy statements and regional and district plans associated with biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe want to see tangata whenua values and interests incorporated into the management of biosecurity. We would like to ensure that there is regular and informed consultation with tangata whenua, particularly as it relates to protecting and enhancing areas and habitats that have a particular significance to tangata whenua. We want to see the active involvement of tangata whenua in the protection of cultural values to protect the native plants, animals, and other resources that are taonga to M\u0101ori. We hope that the biosecurity system is able to work in such a way as to recognise the customary use of indigenous biodiversity according to tikanga M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party caucus has concluded, on the basis of all of the analysis, that our support for the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is conditional on there being a Treaty clause within the legislation. Our support will be subject to satisfaction with an appropriate Treaty clause. In the meantime, we support the bill at this its first reading. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5b368be062545cb90d7a6189fb707aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5b368be062545cb90d7a6189fb707aa\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to express my support for the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill and the very necessary changes that go with it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022135a786012164ac28a8348abfb89e88d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022135a786012164ac28a8348abfb89e88d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Despite its brevity, I think that was the best speech Sandra Goudie has given in Parliament\u2014in my time here, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022547bfd9c280d4f4382c6af2fb7ec459d\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ba8e15ec6a4ff8beeabe5129600460\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, I say to Mrs Goudie that it is a low bar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt gives me pleasure to rise to speak in this debate, because I believe that the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is timely. Members on this side of the House recognise that issues related to biosecurity are constantly evolving and, although the Biosecurity Act 1993 provided a good basis for us to manage our borders and our immediate environment, time moves quickly in the area of biosecurity and there is a need for an update. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no doubt that New Zealand, perhaps more than any other developed country, relies on high-quality biosecurity measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f7d9c66a4a4d93922d2d3877850c9a\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, thank you, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359b7463e02f45abb76327881ccc48c6\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hayes is someone who would know a great deal about that from his time working to defend our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAbout 80 percent of New Zealand\u2019s primary production each year is exported. When we look at some of the numbers we see that they really do emphasise the importance of that. Nearly $20 billion of agricultural and food exports, $3.2 billion of horticultural exports, $3.4 billion of forestry product exports, and 64 percent of our total merchandise exports come from the primary production area. That area is critical for our economy. The kind of comprehensive review and measures that are required from time to time in the biosecurity field is what we are seeing with the bill. Therefore, it is an important one for us to focus on tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is such an important bill that we would perhaps expect slightly more contribution from the National Government members. They have made limited contributions throughout this urgency process, which makes us wonder quite how urgent the National Government sees these matters as being. But, on biosecurity, we certainly know that we are pleased this bill has come before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Biosecurity Act was put in place in 1993. Seventeen years later the world is quite different. It is important that we acknowledge the changes in the way that people travel around the world, the frequency of travel that is undertaken by people, the way that goods move around the world, and the fact that new markets are opening up all the time, that goods are being produced in multiple countries and exported to New Zealand, and that people and goods are travelling together more often. We need measures that acknowledge those things. We also have to acknowledge the rapid change in technology. A lot of what is in the Biosecurity Act 1993 reflects a manual system of processing, whereas nowadays we have a lot more computerised systems of processing, and obviously that needs to be worked through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlso, after 17 years of operation, the Biosecurity Act has thrown up one or two issues that perhaps have shown it is not working so well. Some would say that that is particularly so in the area of pest management\u2014in the way in which our relationships are formed between regional and local authorities and central government. It is good to see that those issues are being picked up in this bill. There have also been changes in the way in which our marine environment is managed, in New Zealand\u2019s relationships with other countries, in the way in which the exclusive economic zone has been developed, and in the way in which our international maritime law has continued to evolve. All of those things have occurred since 1993, and it is important that the bill is updated to reflect them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs other speakers have said, the bill moves to amend a number of different areas. As I have said, it particularly looks at the question of the marine environment. There are several amendments in that area. They look at the exclusive economic zone and make sure that the measures in the Biosecurity Act are consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. There are also amendments that introduce a new instrument into the Act, the craft risk management standard, which will set out biosecurity requirements for craft arriving in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI note from the regulatory impact statement that there was an issue in the consultation process\u2014and I am sure it will be taken up during the select committee process\u2014over how craft risk-management standards will be implemented. Stakeholders who were involved in that process certainly wanted to see New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity standards mesh with international standards and conventions, where possible. But in the consultation process they questioned the application and use of those standards, how practical they would be, and whether the movements would apply to craft that move around New Zealand, or to craft that arrive in New Zealand. All of those issues were raised in the consultation process, and I hope that the select committee will take them up. Although it sounds like a reasonable idea that there should be a consistent craft risk-management standard, it is new territory and it needs to be clear. Obviously the people involved have expressed that already in the consultation process, and we certainly hope that it will be taken up further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, there is also an alteration made in the bill to the position of the Crown in relation to making sure that regional pest-management strategies are aligned. There is some concern in the regulatory impact statement about the potential cost to the Crown for that. The regulatory impact statement makes clear that there has not yet been time to identify exactly what those costs are. I think that will be another issue that the select committee will want to look at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe bill will also allow national and regional pest-management plans to be more effectively developed, and allow the development of plans at the national level to address the movement of harmful organisms. That is all stuff that members on this side of the House would be happy to support investing in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI note that the bill amends the scope of the Wild Animal Control Act 1977. That is an Act that Mr Twyford knows well. [Interruption] No, they have not yet, actually. It is incredible, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa935e9d5aaa46fba0dd91a33b4cb03f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is that why Tau is away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b5862dcfa024a459ca278ea41b87702\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. We note that there are two particular animals being looked at in this part of the bill: possums and wallabies, which are currently managed solely under the Wild Animal Control Act and will come under the Biosecurity Act. I want to know whether Robbie Deans fits within the definition of a wallaby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022498cbfac8c844f9e87b5443a0afec2ce\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Russel Norman should be worried. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224ceaf36ec84351be8b9c4106d1da2d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Russel Norman may be worried, that is true\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f85ea212687046c48e695b3350185d1e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: More like a possum in the headlights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d08d149f76e4b5b85abd465ce013d1d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. He is perhaps both a possum and a wallaby. We will certainly be interested to see the extent to which the definition of wallaby will be contained in the changes being suggested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other area I will mention is the clarity of roles and relationships, and collaboration and partnerships. Certainly, again, looking at the regulatory impact statement, there was strong support in the consultation with stakeholders for improving the clarity of the relationships between MAF Biosecurity, regional and local authorities, industry, and other importers. Clearly, as Dr Norman has already mentioned, New Zealand has such a great number of imports and exports, and there is the need to do a huge amount of assessment, but not everything can be assessed. We need to ensure that partnerships are in place to make sure that quality assessment can take place, and that the things we need to look at are looked at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is on the subject of those relationships that I will now move to the impact of the decision made by the National Government to cut 55 front-line staff from MAF Biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be7e757cb8e41d1ac24bee56b1ae43a\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d855e8ab09f4418849ef69b1d723512\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is the kind of reaction I would expect from the Hon Ruth Dyson, because it is remarkable. Having spent a considerable amount of time working through both the importance of biosecurity to New Zealand and the changes since 1993, it is remarkable, in the context of this bill, to then realise that this Government cut 55 front-line positions from MAF Biosecurity. That is the very area that we have established throughout this debate as essential to New Zealand\u2019s economy and essential to our environmental health and well-being, and this Government has cut those front-line positions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have heard from David Carter in previous times that those positions were cut because there were fewer imports of particular types of cars coming into New Zealand. How short-sighted is that? To say that right at the moment we do not have quite enough imports and exports to justify the staff is no way to manage a biosecurity system in New Zealand. What happens when there is an incursion? What happens when tourism starts to rise again? We have the expensive cost of re-employing all of those people\u2014or not, as the case may be. We need to invest in biosecurity in New Zealand, and that includes the people who protect our borders. They are truly front-line staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis Government came into office with a promise not to cut front-line public servants. This was the first and biggest example of a straight-out breaking of that promise. There has been concern throughout New Zealand, and throughout the sectors that are affected by this bill. There has been concern from organisations such as Horticulture New Zealand, the New Zealand Flower Exporters Association, and Federated Farmers. All of those organisations have expressed the concern that cutting 55 front-line positions puts at risk New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is nothing more important to our economy than the protection of our borders. We need to ensure that MAF Biosecurity has adequate staff in order to perform the important roles that are noted in this bill. We will support this bill being referred to a select committee because we believe that biosecurity is a vital part of protecting and enhancing our economy and protecting our environment. But we raise our concerns that cutting 55 front-line staff does no good. We must ensure that we have the people in place to protect our borders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0448a6840a34141a1c9d6d3143c876e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0448a6840a34141a1c9d6d3143c876e\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I will address the last comment from the previous speaker, Grant Robertson, although substantially I agree with everything he said. The point is that if the volume of trade drops, MAF Biosecurity will not need as many people as it had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBiosecurity is absolutely critical to my Wairarapa electorate and the prosperity and way of life of the people there. New Zealand depends on the success of the industry and the primary sector, but the Biosecurity Act needs to be upgraded to allow the system to respond to an increasingly challenging environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWith those words, I support the bill and hope it will progress through to the select committee very quickly. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022a73abacb6ec04c79b4b40b2ba08612a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a73abacb6ec04c79b4b40b2ba08612a5\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Opposition is in full support of sending the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill to a select committee, where submitters can have their say on what is quite a substantial bill. This is one of those cases that quite often come up in the Chamber of an Act that, in its day, was perfectly adequate. Certainly, the Biosecurity Act in 1993 was more than adequate in the environment in which it was enacted, and it responded well to New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity needs at the time. But that was 17 years ago and things have moved on. In fact, Grant Robertson used the word \u201Cevolved\u201D, which I suppose is another word that gets thrown around this place quite a bit. But in terms of biosecurity, evolution is exactly what we are dealing with. Many of these organisms evolve very quickly. They evolve into new organisms and pose new threats to New Zealand\u2019s primary sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EOver a period of 17 years it is quite easy for legislation like the Biosecurity Act 1993 to become outdated. But this Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is different from a lot of technical updating bills. First of all, it is entitled the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill, and it is a comprehensive reform of our biosecurity laws. It is not merely a technical amendment; it is, quite literally, a very significant and substantial bill. Just physically looking at the bill, we see it is close to an inch in depth. It has close to 211 pages and many, many parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222605a778b6c64e1dbec75b0cac1cbefb\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How much does it weigh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd96d4e9202465eaf1aca754e05c4f3\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: It would be interesting to know how much it weighs, and maybe we can find that out at the select committee. But the point I am getting at is just how insignificant the Government\u2019s contributions on this bill have been today. For such a major piece of law reform, it has been up to the Opposition to delve into what is contained in the bill. Grant Robertson uncovered a few interesting facts, and Damien O\u2019Connor went into the real guts of the bill. The Minister for Biosecurity managed only a couple of minutes, and the other Government members\u2019 contributions have been pathetic, given the importance of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EBiosecurity very much underpins New Zealand\u2019s economy, as we have discussed several times in this debate. Our primary production sector accounts for a huge part of our economy, and New Zealand relies on primary production in a way that almost no other developed country does. We export about 80 percent of our primary produce each year, and thus it is hugely important that we have the right mechanisms in place to protect our primary industries. It is true that over the last 17 years since the previous bill was enacted, protecting our borders has become a much more complex issue. The tendency towards greater global trade, the fact that products are coming into New Zealand from all parts of the world where different diseases and pests might reside and might find their way to our borders, and the fact that international travel is so much more accessible these days means that it is a far more complex environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe need a more flexible approach to biosecurity in New Zealand, but one thing that the Labour Opposition will be watching out for as this bill progresses through the select committee is that a more flexible approach is not used as an excuse for cuts, or used as an excuse for the Government to shirk its responsibilities in biosecurity and to merely pass those on to industry or to other players. The Government needs to have responsibility, it needs to have oversight, and, ultimately, it will be held responsible by the voters out there in New Zealand if this bill should actually reduce our ability to protect our borders. We will be keeping an eye out for that. But for the time being it looks like good legislation, and we look forward to hearing what the submissions are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that we have recently seen cuts to the number of front-line staff in the biosecurity arena\u2014and nothing gets more front-line than our borders, and protecting our borders and protecting our industries. There are no staff more front-line than our customs officials and our biosecurity staff. The Minister used as one of his excuses for those cuts the fact that the global economy was down and international travel was down as a result, but the numbers do not actually bear that out, at all. From 2009 to 2010, total arrivals and departures numbered 8.2 million, and from 2010 to 2011, they numbered 8.3 million. The figure is projected to grow to 8.7 million in 2011 to 2012, to just over 9 million in 2012 and 2013, and to 9.3 million in 2013 to 2014. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThat is an increase over 5 years of 13.7 percent in the total number of people travelling across our borders, yet the Minister used a downturn in those numbers as an excuse to cut front-line staffing numbers. Although we have now seen a recovery, we have not seen the same re-establishment of the number of front-line staff. I think that is dangerous. That is dangerous for our primary industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe have seen the introduction of SmartGate, which looks like a very sensible way of increasing efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246230f3b46de493fa8125eff4052bb34\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It keeps Paul Quinn out, doesn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d849c2eb4b714007b9db0ccb5efe65f2\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I could not possibly comment. But we think it is dangerous to have these sorts of cuts to front-line services when clearly there is an increase in the amount of traffic across our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe current value of protecting New Zealand from potential biosecurity incursions depends significantly on two factors: the size of the impacts and the probability of those impacts occurring. The magnitude of the potential economic cost means that reducing the probability of incursions can lead to significant economic benefits, so there is money to be saved by being well prepared. There have been a number of significant incursions in recent years. For example, there was the painted apple moth, the Asian gypsy moth, and didymo. There has been the varroa mite, which has had a significant impact on our bee-keeping industry. Most recently there has been Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4749d327014406837350fb755f6ca4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce5769b8ab948b99c6b6d89d62df07f\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I might just have another crack at that\u2014Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae, which is better known as the Psa disease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a74589713244797bdefaab72dba4ed1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: They did Latin at King\u2019s College, didn\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fed7597d4649af97ce0fab90cde8f5\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: You know, I did do Latin in third form, as it happens. The Psa disease, all joking aside, has been having a terrible effect on our kiwifruit vines. It has the potential to cost the country $75 million. It is a good example of why we need strong and secure biosecurity defences in place. Those are just a few examples, but by being well prepared we can save ourselves a lot of money further down the track. Indeed, the cost of cleaning up the mess caused by an incursion of a disease or a pest can be quite substantial, and often outweighs the cost of maintaining a decent level of staffing and having a decent biosecurity protection system in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EJust to finish up, the Labour Opposition supports this bill. We support having strong biosecurity defences for our nation. We look forward to the submissions at the select committee, and we look forward to the steady progress of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002287db5e5d483e40d985db4771cfdd2f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287db5e5d483e40d985db4771cfdd2f0b\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E The Biosecurity Law Reform Bill is a progressive piece of legislation that is vital for protecting our primary industries in New Zealand. In particular, it deals with pest management. I know that the Hon Phil Goff knows a lot about pest management. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b8464334a7844dfa7794c59e8a05f54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 40; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00224debbe50ea73494394ee397973910d98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224debbe50ea73494394ee397973910d98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move that the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee, that the committee present its final report on or before 3 May 2011, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during questions for oral answer, and during any evening on a day on which the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e0ab03320945e8a4366dd1bab4ec7c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member did not give notice during the first reading of the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00e86fca147490f855f0124d4c2277d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I did so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e6afa5fd06e4c3f8547616538d354ac\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the member did not give notice, which would mean that the referral is out of order. I am just going to seek some advice. The member cannot give an instruction in respect of the details of the referral. All he can do is move a motion as to which select committee the bill is going to. He cannot move an instruction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab72f7c2253a469eaef062c7f0ae5905\u0022\u003ESmoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d062a96e26aa4e359404d8e0cc3500ad\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022560c0591448541c0ae35e7862d543334\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022560c0591448541c0ae35e7862d543334\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Health: I move, That the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Health Committee for consideration and report back by 8 April 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EFirstly, I acknowledge the work of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee in its inquiry into the tobacco industry in Aotearoa and the consequences of tobacco use for M\u0101ori. This bill addresses a number of the recommendations in its report, but the bill is not the Government\u2019s formal response to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee report. The Government will respond to the report in its entirety in early February next year. What the inquiry did, which has been invaluable, was to put the issue of tobacco addiction on all of our radars. We have heard the personal testimonies of families that have had harm caused by tobacco and that premature deaths have deprived our wh\u0101nau of their elders. As I listened to the debate earlier this year when the tobacco taxation legislation was debated, and then listened very recently to the debate on the tobacco industry inquiry, I found it to be a bitter-sweet moment in our political history. It was heartening to hear about the level of shared commitment across the House; it was also distressing to hear how many of us have been personally affected by tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe are all starting to understand just how massive an impact tobacco has on New Zealand society, overall. The direct health costs to the Government of tobacco-related harm in New Zealand have been put at as high a figure as $1.9 billion per year. The costs to New Zealand society are significantly greater than that. There is no putting off the fact that action must occur, and it must occur now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe objectives of the bill are simple: to make tobacco less visible and attractive, and to make tobacco less accessible. I am confident that over time these measures will be effective in reducing smoking-related harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the transformation in tobacco control that has evolved over the last two decades since the Smoke-free Environments Act 1990 was passed. This history is one that all MPs should be proud of\u2014for the advances brought in that established a smoke-free New Zealand\u2014instead of indulging in cheap, political point-scoring. I am extremely mindful of the enthusiasm, passion, and dedicated efforts of a very impressive group of advocates, who have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf9af4632f3443ca10e4c2f07bbaa08\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to the member. I have been listening very carefully to his speech. I am getting the impression that he may be giving a speech on behalf of another Minister, but he did not preface it in that way. I wonder whether he wants to correct that now, to indicate that he is delivering a speech for another Minister, because, of course, any Minister could have moved the motion. I think he moved it on behalf of another Minister and is delivering a speech for Ms Turia, rather than one that is heartfelt on his part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5fb5dd3f5b346fc956534598215426f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is in the name of Ms Turia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebeb0beaab6c44ddb251cf6624ce2de0\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: As I was just mentioning to the House, I am extremely mindful of the enthusiasm, passion, and dedicated efforts of a very impressive group of advocates, who have invested much of their time into paving the way for a cleaner, healthier, smoke-free world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThere will inevitably be some compliance costs associated with this bill. Tobacco retailers will have to modify their shopfittings in order to comply with its provisions. The bill has been drafted so that all retailers must remove retail displays within 6 months after the bill comes into force, except for those classes of retailers who are allowed exemptions for up to 2 years through regulations. The bill does not allow any longer exemptions than that, such as for specialist tobacconists or duty-free stores. The bill also provides for new regulation-making powers for incidental matters covering product notices, price lists, health warnings, and other signs. It prohibits the display of trading names where these include words or phrases that effectively advertise tobacco products. An example could be \u201CDarren\u2019s Discount Cigarettes\u201D. The bill provides an infringement notice scheme to enforce the prohibition on the sale of tobacco products to people under 18 years old. The infringement notice penalty is capped at a maximum of $400\u2014that is, 20 percent of the $2,000 maximum penalty for the offence. Alternatively, prosecution through the courts will still be possible for more serious or repeat offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI am confident that this bill will help to reduce the harms caused by tobacco. It has to. There is too much at stake. If we were at war and losing 5,000 people a year, we would consider that to be a matter of national urgency. This is exactly the approach that we must take now. The Government would like to see the bill enacted by 31 May next year. I hope that other parties will join us in this approach. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002216a6ec66237d4655b2d3e553c8662ddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216a6ec66237d4655b2d3e553c8662ddd\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me an immense amount of pleasure to rise to speak to the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. The Labour Party wholeheartedly supports and endorses this bill. I start by congratulating the Hon Tariana Turia on her success in bringing this legislation to the House, and her success in convincing her Government allies to agree to these measures. This bill is the next logical and natural step along the path towards greater tobacco control and leading New Zealand to the position of being free from the clutches of tobacco. The bill builds on a number of years of excellent work by successive Governments, which have sought for some time to tackle the horrific damage done by tobacco in New Zealand\u2014in particular, damage to M\u0101ori. I acknowledge and congratulate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on its recent work, and particularly Hone Harawira on establishing the inquiry into the tobacco industry in Aotearoa and on being able to run such an effective inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe major thrust of the bill, and the piece that people will probably pay most attention to, is the removal of tobacco displays. Advocates have been asking for that for a number of years, and, to be honest, I think Parliament has been a little slow to react to that request. I am very pleased that finally we are debating the first reading of this bill, and that those tobacco displays will eventually be removed. The point of removing tobacco displays is to reduce the number of young people who start smoking in the first place. We know that as the tobacco industry kills off 5,000 people a year, it needs to recruit new users; otherwise its business model is completely stuffed. The truth is that adults who are making informed decisions would not sensibly take up tobacco smoking. The truth is that it is young people, usually around the age of 13 or 14, who start to smoke. By the time they are old enough to realise that it is not a good idea, their health will be suffering and their lives will be shortened. They are, by then, addicted to nicotine and find it near-impossible to quit. So getting tobacco out of sight and out of mind, and reducing the incentives for young people to take up smoking are significant steps forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis is a measure that the Labour Party has been prepared to do for some time. A petition was brought to the Health Committee in the last term of Parliament. The committee took that petition very seriously, and the recommendation was made by the majority of the committee\u2014although it was not supported by the National Party members on the committee\u2014to get rid of tobacco displays. Unfortunately, the National Government rejected that recommendation and said there was no evidence in support of banning displays. It is pleasing, although it has taken 2 years, that the M\u0101ori Party and Tariana Turia have managed to get National to come round on this one, and I would be very interested to hear contributions from National members about what has actually convinced them to do so. We know no more now than we knew 2 years ago; we had plenty of evidence 2 years ago that told us that getting rid of tobacco displays was a good thing, but Tony Ryall got up and said\u2014and Jo Goodhew is shaking her head, but she knows this is true, because it is in Hansard\u2014that there was no evidence in support of removing tobacco displays. What has changed 2 years on? That is my question. That is what I want to know from National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhen I asked Mrs Turia that question yesterday in the House, she came back with a quick, sharp response that 2 years was a lot shorter than 9 years. The truth, again, is that in the 9 years when Labour was in Government, we got smoking out of workplaces, we got smoking out of bars, we increased the excise tax, and we introduced more support for smokers who were trying to quit smoking. This bill is an excellent bill, but it is merely the next step along a path, and the revisionist history that argues nothing happened for 9 years needs to be unpicked and pulled apart. The only thing that would have stopped anything during those 9 years was if National had been in charge, because it voted against every single one of those measures. In fact, National members went around scaremongering and rarking people up, saying measures to control smoking were an infringement on their personal rights. That is what National members did, so the question that National has to answer tonight is, what has changed? Why are the National members suddenly very much in support of this measure? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EBut, you know, I do not think that National really is very much in support of this measure. We can tell that because it got its most junior Minister to stand up and bring this bill into the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffb32f47d66e4ecb9be33a5a7feb6101\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Second-most junior Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a595d6327cef44c1934e2c2eca3e0427\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; it was the second-most junior Minister. It could have brought the new Minister in. But that was a real insult to Mrs Turia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220941549c1b694496871259caa182f490\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it was the most junior one; Hekia was promoted above him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd565c446c0434e94fe489d920dfb90\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, that is fair enough. The fact of the matter is that National does not believe in this stuff. This legislation is, thank goodness, a little tip to the M\u0101ori Party, because the ACT Party is in trouble and National knows that the only hope of it being in Government in the next term is with M\u0101ori Party support. So thank goodness the ACT Party is falling over and the M\u0101ori Party is having more say in this Government. That is what has brought this legislation to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe bill does not just get rid of tobacco displays, though; it does some other good things as well. It prohibits the display on the exterior of retail premises of retailers\u2019 trading names if those names include words like \u201Ctobacconist\u201D or \u201Ctobacco\u201D. That is a very good step forward, as well. It also tries to tackle the last bastion of tobacco sponsorship in New Zealand, which was one of the first things to be banned. But there are still some things out there, and those are exclusive trading deals whereby tobacco companies enter into exclusive arrangements, usually with those running events. That then give them exclusive supply rights for their products at those events, but it also means that some of the more surreptitious forms of advertising find their way in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe bill also tries to deal with the deep discounting of tobacco products that can occur, as well. However, I note that a provision in the bill says there will be nothing to stop the normal discounting that would normally happen in a trade relationship. Well, I think a lot of submitters will have a problem with that, and I expect there to be quite a lot of discussion about that at the select committee, because tobacco is not a normal product. Until we get our heads around that concept, we really will not make the advances that we need to make. Built into this bill is the concept that tobacco is a normal product that should have normal trading discounts applied to it. But that is wrong, in my opinion, and I expect that there will be a lot of noise from submitters on that particular aspect of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI cannot emphasise enough how pleased we in Labour are to see this bill come to the House, and how pleased I am personally to see this bill come to the House. I have had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot for close to 2 years. It was recently drawn, and it would have done part of what this bill will do. In fact, everything that was in my bill will be achieved by this bill, and it is quite gratifying when the Government adopts a policy of one\u2019s own. I am very pleased the Government has gone ahead and done this, and I am pleased that this bill, as a Government bill, manages to tackle some of the other issues, as well. The advice I had, when I was preparing my member\u2019s bill, was to keep it fairly succinct if it was to have any chance of getting past this Government, which seems to block any Opposition member\u2019s bill at any opportunity. So I am really very, very pleased to see this bill come before the House. I look forward to National members\u2019 contributions, and for their explanations about what has changed in National, for those members to finally come around to introducing this legislation. But do you know what? It is great that they have caught up with the rest of us, and this is an excellent step forward in tobacco control in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceb8a686ef0743238a9b0daf7b10789b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceb8a686ef0743238a9b0daf7b10789b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E The Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill should be celebrated, because it is being brought in by a National Government, with its coalition partner the M\u0101ori Party, and it is another step forward towards a smoke-free New Zealand. The bill certainly focuses on the banning, comprehensively, of tobacco advertising, promotion, and sponsorship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe have just been asked what has changed in the last 2 years, and I would refer the member Iain Lees-Galloway to the consolidation of the evidence base in papers from Finland, Iceland, North America, and the United Kingdom. Those papers have certainly consolidated the evidence base over the last 2 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut no one inside or outside this Parliament should be under any illusion that the tobacco industry, like the alcohol industry, will not use every subtle trick in the book to seduce our young, let alone the general population, into addiction. The hidden persuaders behind the tobacco and alcohol industries are highly paid and ruthless, and spend a lot of money. They would like us to be trained like Pavlov\u2019s dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELibertarian philosophy would say \u201CDo no harm.\u201D, or \u201CHave as much freedom as possible, provided harm is not done.\u201D But undoubtedly on a personal basis there is huge morbidity and mortality from smoking cigarettes, and second-hand smoking has affected thousands of young children, never giving them the opportunity to achieve their full potential. Likewise, cohorts of young M\u0101ori women are condemned to having suboptimal health for themselves and their families. There is no doubt that this bill is a further major step in health promotion and disease prevention. It is absolutely wonderful, and I am very proud that the National Government, in coalition with its M\u0101ori Party partner, is bringing this legislation in. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee2258dd7c94dd0a8ba3f258ee12f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee2258dd7c94dd0a8ba3f258ee12f91\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great delight for me to join in what I assume will be unanimous support for the referral of the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill to the Health Committee. One can often learn a lot about a person\u2019s view of the world and the way they see their role in it by the contribution they make in the House, and I want to refer to the member who has just resumed his seat. I have enjoyed working with Dr Paul Hutchison on the Health Committee. He and I have very little in common in terms of policy, but mostly we have an interesting time on the select committee. I have certainly enjoyed the last couple of years and will enjoy the next 12 months in that position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EBut what I found really interesting about the speech that Dr Paul Hutchison just made was that he said this legislation was a cause for celebration because it had been introduced by the National Government, in coalition with the M\u0101ori Party. Frankly, I do not think it matters a toss, actually, who introduces legislation. The point in relation to this Parliament should be what legislation is introduced to it, what the policy behind it is, and what its aim is. In the end, who supports it is a strictly political issue. I am gobsmacked that a person with a medical background should think so little of the health consequences of the legislation that we are discussing that instead he says \u201CLook at me. It\u2019s all about me and my party.\u201D I say to Dr Hutchison that it is not all about him and the National Party, or about the M\u0101ori Party. We should be celebrating this bill because finally the Government has come to its senses on the issue of improving people\u2019s health and the contribution that this Parliament can make to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI commend the Hon Tariana Turia. She has a lot of steel in her and a lot of passion. I have seen it demonstrated on a number of occasions, sometimes on issues on which I was on the same side as her, and sometimes on issues on which we disagree. But on this issue Tariana Turia and Hone Harawira have been incredibly staunch and passionate. They have driven a change in thinking, particularly amongst people who needed to see that sort of role model and leadership being demonstrated, so that they would change their views on using tobacco. I say to the Hon Tariana Turia that the introduction of this legislation is a huge credit to her and her persistence. Frankly, I do not know how she managed to persuade the members of the Government, who have consistently voted against similar moves despite tonight crowing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226fa00fbedb7416d856ed64f6d06d003\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, they haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536d91e6ae3649dfa763dfecd7360084\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not every single member. Two members of the National Party\u2014only two out of the whole lot in 9 long years of a Labour-led Government\u2014supported the moves towards creating more smoke-free environments. But Tariana Turia seems to have achieved that, and I commend her work in doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also commend the work of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. It has had a fair bit on over the last little while, and it has done amazing work on the tobacco industry. I recently met one of the submitters on a visit to Timaru, where I have been working with some of the alcohol watch groups, who also work alongside the tobacco restriction groups and the health promotion teams in Timaru. One of the submitters from there was the woman who came along to the committee with her children and with a coffin, which represented what had happened to a member of their family. She told us that they had watched him die early and in pain as a result of smoking. That was not a stunt from that family. It was a heartfelt and heart-wrenching submission, which I think drew the eyes of the country towards an issue that we should be taking a much firmer stand on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also commend my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway. Iain is the member of Parliament for Palmerston North, and that is probably enough said about that. He has made a fine contribution not only on the Health Committee but also, as he briefly acknowledged in his own contribution on this bill, in terms of the preparation and successful lodging of a member\u2019s bill that does much of what is in this bill. For a first-term Opposition member of Parliament to have a member\u2019s bill adopted by the Government, then celebrated by the chair of the Health Committee, is certainly an achievement, and I commend Iain Lees-Galloway on that success. I think it is a very good initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI joined with other members of the House in our expression of surprise at the Minister who introduced the bill. I have nothing against the Hon Nathan Guy at all, so this comment is not meant to be an insult to him in any way, but he is not a health Minister. He was sitting just two seats away from the Minister of Health, who did not make a contribution at all, let alone introduce the bill. I was puzzled by that. I should have thought that when an Associate Minister of Health is unable to take a call to introduce her own bill, either another Associate Minister of Health or the Minister of Health himself would take the call and introduce the bill. I imagined that the Minister of Health might have been proud of the bill, but he did not say a word. Nathan Guy introduced the bill, and I had to ask my colleagues what Nathan Guy was the Minister of, because I could not understand his relationship to the health portfolio. It has been explained to me that he is a Minister outside Cabinet. He is the Minister of Internal Affairs, and as such he is responsible for the Fire Service Commission, and there the relationship between that Minister and smoke ends. There is no other relationship at all between that Minister and this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EFrankly, I think it is offensive to Parliament, and particularly offensive to the Hon Tariana Turia, to have this bill treated in that way. It is bad enough that it is being put through at 10 o\u2019clock on a Friday night\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502df5a56a9741879dab103d919336a1\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 10.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619ef016720e4be68d18e73528e1da00\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is 10.30 p.m.; time flies when we are having such a good time\u2014when most of us may well have preferred to be at home with our families rather than doing non-urgent legislation under urgency, so that we can knock off early, in time for the press gallery party, on an ordinary sitting day next week. That does not make much sense to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOver the last few years we have seen a large number of steps to progress what is outlined as being the vision for New Zealand by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee report, which is a smoke-free New Zealand. We have seen our workplaces become smoke-free. We have seen our bars and restaurants become smoke-free. We have seen successive increases in the excise tax. We know that an increase in the price of cigarettes lowers the number of people who buy packets of cigarettes. We have seen more investment being made in support for people to quit smoking. The most recent initiative, other than the most recent tax increase, was the particularly gory photos that can be seen on cigarette packets. All of those moves have been evidence-based initiatives supported by the majority of members, but, tragically, by very few National members. Those are all good, progressive steps towards improving the health outcomes of New Zealanders. We know that every year between 4,500 and 5,000 New Zealanders die not just prematurely, years before they would have died had they not been smokers, but also in pain in the case of a large number of them. That is not something we would wish on anyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn the earlier debate on the excise duty, I recall saying that if tobacco was introduced now as a product for sale in our shops, given what we have learnt about it over the last few decades we would not allow it to be introduced. We would not allow it to be introduced as a product for sale. But trying to unscramble that egg is quite a difficult task. If somebody came to this Parliament and said that they had a breakfast cereal, and if a little bowlful of it was eaten in moderation every day, half of the people who ate it would die early and in pain as a direct result of using it as intended\u2014just by eating it\u2014we would not allow that cereal to be sold. That is what cigarettes do. That is what tobacco does. This move to reduce the display of tobacco advertising\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc2689dfcd8b418797bb0ac6d196408c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc2689dfcd8b418797bb0ac6d196408c\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is rare to see legislation in this House that puts the public interest ahead of vested interests, but the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill does that. It puts the interests of New Zealanders ahead of the vested interests of the tobacco industry, so I think it is something of a red-letter day to see this rare sort of legislation in the House. I too congratulate the Hon Tariana Turia, the M\u0101ori Party, and the inquiry into tobacco undertaken by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee that they have triggered. I also congratulate Iain Lees-Galloway on his member\u2019s bill. I suspect the fact that Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s bill was selected from the ballot and was ready to be debated in this House has probably sped up the introduction of this legislation into this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI was on the Health Committee 5 years ago, when we considered a petition that recommended that the Government require tobacco and cigarette displays in retail outlets to be out of sight. Iain Lees-Galloway is absolutely correct that National opposed that legislation. I have the report here. National said that in the opinion of its members, there was a need for more international evidence. That is something we hear a lot about these days. We hear about the need for more international evidence of the link between alcohol and accidents, for example. Anyway, the National members said there needed to be more international evidence at that time that banning tobacco displays would bring about a significant decrease in smoking, in order to present a compelling and convincing case to the public. That is what the National members argued in the select committee. They argued that there was not enough international evidence, despite the fact that a number of countries had already introduced legislation to get tobacco and cigarette displays out of sight. Those countries included Iceland, Ireland, and the United Kingdom, but National felt at that stage that there was not enough evidence. It is great that 5 years later we finally see this legislation in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhen we were considering this issue in the select committee, it was pointed out that 10,000 retail outlets have tobacco displays around New Zealand. People can go into virtually every supermarket in the land\u2014well, I think every supermarket\u2014every dairy, and every petrol station, and see a huge display behind the checkout counter. In fact, I was at a Shell station the other day, and I walked up to the counter and saw a huge display of cigarettes just behind the counter, and all around the rest of the shop was confectionery, chocolate, and so forth. I recalled that the New Zealand Superannuation Fund and Infratil have taken over Shell. I thought maybe they could indicate their commitment to New Zealand by taking a lead and getting rid of cigarette displays before the legislation takes effect. At the same time, they could get rid of the huge amount of confectionery that is there alongside the cigarettes in every single Shell petrol station in the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAnyway, the Health Committee was presented with lots of international evidence that tobacco displays, called power walls, create the impression that cigarettes are just another harmless grocery product\u2014just another consumer product. The displays legitimise tobacco products and give a false impression of the safety of cigarettes. They are also, of course, a constant temptation, particularly to anyone who has given up smoking. People go into the supermarket and see cigarettes, which are a constant temptation. Above all, the displays are a huge temptation for young New Zealanders. Every time children go into a supermarket, they see cigarettes. The displays have a very significant influence in tempting young people to take up smoking. I thank God that in this House we will put the public interest ahead of the vested interest, and we will get rid of those so-called power walls\u2014the tobacco displays. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things that we learnt in that committee was that the suppliers of cigarettes may\u2014I think almost always\u2014pay retailers to display their products. They would not tell us how much they paid, although we asked them about that in the select committee. It was a bit like Coca-Cola, which pays retailers and schools to have its vending machines all over New Zealand. So it is with the tobacco companies, which pay retailers to have tobacco displays. Those commercial arrangements are the subject of confidentiality clauses, known as \u201Cfinancial incentive arrangements\u201D. It is no wonder that some small dairies are worried that they will lose income, because one of the main sources of income that they will lose is the money that they are paid to display cigarettes in a tempting way right behind the checkout counter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to talk about the lobbying of the tobacco industry. The latest issue is that the Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) points out that the Australian ABC has recently obtained internal emails, invoices, and contracts that reveal that the tobacco companies in Australia had hired a public relations firm, which told them to launch a campaign, hidden under a third party like a retailers association, to oppose plain packaging. ASH pointed out that a New Zealand retailers group, the Association of Community Retailers, was also linked with the tobacco industry. So the relentless campaigning by the tobacco industry still continues to this day, and the industry still puts up third-party front organisations like the Association of Community Retailers to try to run campaigns opposed to plain packaging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut there are other interesting things; it is not just that. We now have big tobacco companies trying to use the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Members will recall that this week we have been negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership in Auckland. The tobacco companies are trying to use our trade negotiations to block anti-smoking laws in New Zealand. We had Philip Morris, one of the largest multinational tobacco companies, actually making a submission that it wants to use our trade agreements to try to stop Governments from introducing anti-smoking measures such as the ones that we are introducing tonight. Philip Morris is, extraordinarily, taking action against Uruguay\u2019s proposed anti-smoking laws under the investor dispute mechanism in one of the free-trade agreements, an agreement between Uruguay and Switzerland. Uruguay is proposing new measures to require graphic warnings on cigarette packaging, and Philip Morris argues that requiring such packages would expropriate its investments. It is using a mechanism under that free-trade agreement to require a World Bank panel to decide whether Uruguay should pay Philip Morris for that so-called expropriation. Philip Morris is targeting our negotiations, to require that it would be able to sue Governments such as that of New Zealand that attempt to introduce similar anti-smoking laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo we have the astonishing situation where we are debating very enlightened and progressive legislation in this Parliament tonight to try to reduce the amount of promotion of tobacco, particularly to young children. Here we have the same tobacco companies still lobbying for tobacco, and using our so-called free-trade agreement, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, to argue that the introduction of the sorts of measures that we are talking about today, particularly the plain packaging of cigarettes, would be tantamount to an expropriation of their property rights. Their submission is that we should be required to submit this issue to a disputes tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u00229fae0b33b8c4401bb1f49568b8676df3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fae0b33b8c4401bb1f49568b8676df3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great deal of pleasure to rise and speak on the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. The ACT Party will be casting a split vote on this issue. I and one of my colleagues will be voting for the bill and I will outline some of the reasons for that. Some of my colleagues will be voting against it, and I will also take the opportunity to explain their reasoning. However, I would like to acknowledge some of the people who have contributed to this bill this evening. Mention has already been of Tariana Turia and the role she has played as an Associate Minister of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI have a long-term interest in this issue. I think it is an absolute tragedy that some 5,000 New Zealanders die each year from cancer, from diseases associated with smoking. Largely, those are diseases that can be prevented. I think it is further a tragedy that tobacco causes addiction. People, by and large, take up smoking at a young age when they are not mature, when their brains have not fully matured, and they get to a stage where they simply cannot give up. I am sure we all know people who smoke and who have repeatedly tried to give up smoking but the addiction sure is so strong that a number of them are unable to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI believe that we should be taking any measure we can take as a Parliament to reduce the incidence of people taking up smoking at an early stage. However, it has been an issue of dispute within the ACT Party for a number of years. The ACT Party is a party that promotes freedom, freedom of choice, but it is also a party that speaks up for ordinary New Zealanders. I have always sincerely believed that it is ACT Party policies that will do most to promote the welfare, the education, and the greater prosperity for all New Zealanders. That is one of the reasons I first joined the ACT Party when I learnt of its philosophies and policies in 1995. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EBut I recall an ACT conference in the early 2000s in Christchurch when the Labour Government was looking to pass its amendments to the smoke-free environments legislation. I challenged a number of our sitting MPs at the time. Without exception, one by one, they all got up to defend their opposition to what the Labour Government was proposing at the time. So the ACT Party has not been united on this issue. Some of us support the legislation that is outlined this evening and others oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI am not trying to make political capital; it is sad that some in this House are this evening. I think these issues are health issues. I commend Tariana Turia. I particularly acknowledge Iain Lees-Galloway. I believe that having had his member\u2019s bill pulled from the ballot must have contributed in some small way, if not in some significant way, to having this bill before the House today. I am sure Tariana Turia did a huge amount in her role as an Associate Minister of Health. I thought it was very generous for Iain Lees-Galloway to stand in the House this evening and give considerable acknowledgment to the role that Tariana Turia had played and the role that Hone Harawira had played in, first of all, instigating an inquiry in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and pushing it through. He mentioned his own role only towards the end of his speech. Once again, I thought it was very generous of him to acknowledge the support of others. So I thought it was very fitting of Ruth Dyson to draw to the attention of the House the role that Iain Lees-Galloway has played in this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe question was asked \u201CWhat has changed?\u201D. Paul Hutchison, the chair of the Health Committee, said that the evidence had become more compelling and that there had been reports from Finland, Iceland, the UK, and North America where measures such as those being proposed tonight have had an influence on the quantity of tobacco sold and on the number of people taking up smoking at a young age. I have to say that the members of my own party who do not support this bill have some doubt about the evidence. I do not doubt that their concerns and uncertainties are truly felt. I do not doubt their sincerity in having that view. There must clearly be some conflict, but what I have seen from the Action on Smoking and Health lobby group, which spoke to me, shows me that the justification for these steps is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI take some pride in supporting this bill along with one of my colleagues. We will split our vote, but, notwithstanding that, I have no doubt that this legislation will pass. I think it will be very, very good for the people of New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00226a21e3c5ae2e41b0a09b311f84e0fabb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a21e3c5ae2e41b0a09b311f84e0fabb\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. I start by thanking all colleagues for their acknowledgment of the Hon Tariana Turia and Hone Harawira for their part in presenting the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill to the House. Unfortunately, they are not here, so I will take all of their accolades! That aside, members know that they have done a lot of work. But let me tell members that although they are getting all the accolades, some of us were doing the real hard work in behind the\u2014ha, ha, I am just joking! They have been working hard at things. It will be no secret to the House that tobacco control and things around tobacco have been a key priority for the M\u0101ori Party. Thankfully, on the back of the efforts of both Tariana and Hone, we think that we have made some major traction. Of course, other parties have contributed, as has been acknowledged in the House tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe party\u2019s tobacco campaign to rid our shores of tobacco harm has resulted in some real landmark milestones, which include, as some have already mentioned, Tariana\u2019s initiative to increase tobacco tax, Hone\u2019s initiating of an inquiry by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee of Parliament into M\u0101ori-related tobacco death, and the introduction of this legislation to ban retail displays and keep tobacco out of sight and out of mind. We are making, I think, significant progress, and the momentum, we hope, will be continued. The past 12 months have been the most rapid, in my view as a non-smoker, in terms of history-making around tobacco control. So I stand as someone who feels pretty good about the progress we have made as a party and as a Parliament over this space and time over the last 2 years with the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the work that Tariana has done and, indeed, the whole Parliament, which passed her legislation to increase tobacco excise with an overwhelming cross-party majority of 118 votes to four. The House will recall some 6 or 8 months ago that the excise tax increases were really significant. First off, we equalised the tax on loose tobacco to match tailor-made cigarettes. That was about ensuring that no matter what type of tobacco was smoked, the smoker would face the same incentive to quit. Then we raised the tax on all tobacco products by 10 percent, and for the price of roll-your-own tobacco that had the effect of an immediate increase of more than 25 percent. But that was not all; the legislation passed that night included another 10-percent rise in January 2011 and then another 10 percent in 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI will speak on the work that Hone Harawira has been doing. He had the original idea for the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to hold an inquiry into the tobacco industry in Aotearoa and the consequences of tobacco use for M\u0101ori. It was an initiative that he took up with a lot of vigour. It was pleasing to see the way that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014maybe a little bit reluctantly at the start, but certainly once it gathered momentum\u2014could see from the evidence that this was an honourable take to take up. It did so, and that resulted in the debate on Wednesday of this week about that topic. Just over a year ago the select committee announced it would carry out that inquiry into the tobacco industry and the consequences of tobacco use for M\u0101ori. In March 2010 our co-leader and Associate Minister of Health Tariana initiated public consultation on a proposal to ban tobacco displays in retail outlets. I am sure that most of the House is aware of many of the statistics, although maybe not able to quote them off the top of the head right now. We found in the information from that consultation process and some information given to us that tobacco is the largest single cause of preventable death in New Zealand and that an estimated 5,000 people die very early, well before time. There were major ramifications for wh\u0101nau in losing elders and parents. The most critical fact that motivates all of us to be here today is that 45 percent of M\u0101ori aged between 15 and 64 are current smokers, one in two long-term smokers will die of smoking-related diseases, and those who die lose, on average, 15 years of life. None of those statements are new, but we offer no apology in repeating them tonight as we look at this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are still losing generations of our people who are dying in middle age. Even more tragic is the fact that up to 46 percent of M\u0101ori sudden unexplained deaths in infancy are attributed to smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe welcome the initiative championed in this bill by our co-leader Tariana. It will make tobacco less visible and attractive by reducing the tobacco marketing and advertising that still exists. It will, hopefully, make tobacco less accessible by providing for better measures to prevent sales to children and young people under the age of 18. These measures will not only aid in preventing young people from starting to smoke but help those trying to quit. There is actually a tragic history to the use of tobacco in Aotearoa, and it goes back to a time, for our people, before the Treaty of Waitangi. In terms of some of the accounts in my area of the Bay of Plenty from when the Treaty was taken around\u2014having done some research around this\u2014eight pounds of tobacco and twelve pipes were taken to chiefs in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki; five fancy pipes and half a pound of tobacco to Te Kaha; two fancy pipes and half a pound of tobacco to T\u014Drere; and eleven fancy pipes and five pounds of tobacco to Whakat\u0101ne. Hopefully, today we take on face to face some of that background history, which will overturn itself, at least, with the movement forward of this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn closing, I say that Aotearoa\u2019s approach to tackling tobacco harm has been turned up another notch, we hope, because of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s efforts, through, of course, working with the National Government, and with the support of the other parties, in general, across the floor. These are all efforts to save and preserve the precious lives of people across the country. If that is the motivation, then it cannot but be supported as we look towards positive influences for not only our young people, but, certainly, those who are older in age. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022abefccd0be114d3a8698175e9692e9aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abefccd0be114d3a8698175e9692e9aa\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This National Government is serious about reducing the harm caused by smoking. We believe that it is vital to do more to help people quit smoking. In particular, we are keen to stop young people from being tempted to take up the habit. We join with the M\u0101ori Party and other members in this House to celebrate the passing of this bill, which will improve the health and welfare of all New Zealanders, and, hopefully, deter young people from starting on the road to addiction to nicotine. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e04dabe58f1f4f7e90f60c0aa1db16c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e04dabe58f1f4f7e90f60c0aa1db16c4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill and to congratulate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807fcac6733243f3ba50471fb225de05\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: What do you think about that contribution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84fe23dfcdb4cf38a98ad785072ddcb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am amazed, actually; I am quite gobsmacked by it. But I am pleased to support the Associate Minister of Health Tariana Turia, who has introduced bill. I was very surprised to see Minister Nathan Guy move the first reading motion. It was astonishing. This bill is a huge step in Parliament, and sitting next to Nathan Guy was the Minister of Health, Tony Ryall, but he did not move the motion. That showed all of New Zealand that National never really wanted to move this next step. It put up a junior Minister to start the first reading debate, and I think that is terribly sad symbolically. It will be noted by those out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate Hone Harawira. I think he has been a warrior for smoking cessation, and a proud warrior. This was an issue of convergence, actually. It was started by Tukoroirangi Morgan\u2014and we should acknowledge those who have gone before us in the House who were very brave\u2014with the original smoke-free environments legislation. So this bill has been a long time coming; it has been a bit of a slow-burning issue. But any public health issue is about incremental change and bringing society with us. In this issue, the convergence is that of evidence but also public support. When Tukoroirangi Morgan brought his bill into the House, there was only about 29 percent support in the country for the smoke-free legislation, and the whole debate was very bitter. But at the end of 2003, with the next amendment bill, the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Bill, which I had a part in, the support of society and acceptance of the evidence had grown to 80 percent. So it takes a while to bring communities with us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI am a bit disappointed in this legislation. We get a crack at it only every now and again. The year 2003 was the last time; it is now 2010 and only one recommendation of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee inquiry report has been picked up by this bill. I think the report offered a great opportunity, and I know that Minister Turia would have been fighting very hard with National to get more into the envelope of this suite of recommendations. There may be more that we can do once the bill has gone to the select committee. It is just that we will not get another opportunity for perhaps another 10 years. We should be doing more if we are to reach that goal of smoking cessation by 2025, because time goes by really quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that I have to correct the record in the House tonight. In question time yesterday, after having spoken for 5 minutes the day before on the inquiry report, Minister Turia said that Labour did nothing about smoking cessation in its 9 years in Government. I want to acknowledge Helen Clark, who was a great leader with an understanding of public health and a champion of the issue of the impact of smoking and second-hand smoke on society. I had picked up the bill from Judy Keall, with support from Annette King and Tariana Turia. We got the support of Labour to push for smoking cessation in bars, cafes, school grounds\u2014members will remember that people used to smoke in school grounds\u2014and university campuses. I was saddened to hear the Minister say that. We do ask what has happened since 2003. There were two doctors in the House who supported the bill\u2014Dr Lynda Scott and Dr Paul Hutchison\u2014and they were consistent. But when I sat in the chair as the member in charge of the bill, the rest of the National members were vindictive and absolutely nasty about the bill we were introducing at that time, the Smoke-free Environments (Enhanced Protection) Amendment Bill, taking away civil liberties. I think that communities themselves have now convinced National that this is the right thing to do, and that is often what happens in public policy. Public policy moves with time and the issues are definitely much clearer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think it is very brave, honest, and upfront of the M\u0101ori Party to say that this is largely a M\u0101ori issue that needs some M\u0101ori solutions. That is great. That is leadership, and that is what we are seeing. But there was also an element of pressure. Nothing was done after the petition of 20,000 people in 2008. I know we were in an election time, so nothing would have been done. But Iain Lees-Galloway did pick up those 20,000 petitioners and introduced a member\u2019s bill. That is always a little bit of sand in the oyster that stimulates the Government to say that perhaps it should do something, even if it is not sure what. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee inquiry also helped. But in that time of 2 years, from the time of that petition to Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s member\u2019s bill, 10,000 people died from the effects of smoking. It is a known scientific fact that 350 people die every year from the effects of second-hand smoke. That is more than the number of people killed on the road in motor vehicle accidents in New Zealand. This is a Government that now sees the convergence of both evidence and research. The evidence was there, for goodness\u2019 sake, about the impacts of smoking in 2003 when Dr Paul Hutchison sat on the Health Committee with me and Sue Kedgley. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI also want to comment on how it is fantastic to see two ACT members splitting their vote. That party has never been frightened about splitting the vote. In 2003 the worst response to the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Bill came from Rodney Hide. He came down to the House day after day and attacked our position on that bill. He also changed substantially the role of organisations like Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) that were involved in lobbying for change. They were overt about lobbying for change. They did not hide behind physicians, nurses, doctors, midwives, Plunket, or others who were asking for change. They gave us information and put the evidence before us. Every month we got a newsletter. Rodney Hide changed the rules for Ministry of Health funding of advocacy on health issues, and organisations like ASH\u2014which was the only organisation pulling together centrally all the research data that we needed as politicians\u2014lost funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI thought that Sue Kedgley brought up some amazing points about the tobacco industry itself and how it hides behind other organisations, but I am saddened about one thing. I sat on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for 1 day, and after 1 day of hearings I said to Hone Harawira and Minister Turia that the one thing we needed to do was to re-establish public health funding for smoking cessation programmes. Quitline is great and patches are great, but there is nothing more effective for M\u0101ori people and others addicted to the impact of nicotine on their bodies than one-to-one coaching to help them quit smoking. The National Government, in its 2008 Budget, cut $12 million from smoking cessation programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ESo how can National members sit in the House today and say that they support Tariana Turia\u2019s initiatives? They have not put their money where their mouth is. They cut public health funding around the country right across the board. Under this National Government\u2019s watch public health funding for health and wellness has been slashed in every region in New Zealand. It is absolutely wrong for National members to stand up and say that they own this and that they applaud it. All that happened here was that Minister Turia put pressure on the Government, which is a political reality, and National had to bow to that pressure. I congratulate her on that. I do not congratulate National on this bill tonight. This is a M\u0101ori Party initiative. This bill is a small change on yet another journey and I think there will be many more issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u002267157b947b7e4910a09cffe3f5860a24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267157b947b7e4910a09cffe3f5860a24\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the first reading of the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. I also congratulate Minister Turia on the introduction of this bill today. The bill\u2019s purpose is to reduce the harm caused by smoking. We all know that the social and health costs of smoking are massive, and anything and everything that we can do to persuade young people not to start smoking or, indeed, to help people to stop is welcomed. I congratulate Minister Ryall on making smoking one of the health targets whereby people who are in hospital are given information about smoking cessation. I think that is a move in the right direction. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc92e5c6ff154f5fabd9340067c2f34a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc92e5c6ff154f5fabd9340067c2f34a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is with much pleasure that I rise to speak on the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. I have to say that one of the most worthwhile parts of my role as an Associate Minister of Health was working with Steve Chadwick, who was the sponsor of a bill that made huge progress in reducing smoking in this country, the Smoke-free Environments (Enhanced Protection) Amendment Bill. Effectively, it has changed the whole perception of smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is pleasing to see that further progress has been made, although we have to acknowledge that it was through the efforts of the M\u0101ori Party and not the National Party, at all. When in Government, we sat and listened in this House to accusations of being a nanny State, and accusations of interference with private property rights and people\u2019s right to choose, from that bunch of people over there. I would use the \u201Ch\u201D word about them, but I am not allowed to. It sickens me to hear some of the absolutely pretentious statements from members on the other side of the House who campaigned against us when we were trying to make progress on this area. They absolutely slammed the previous speaker, Steve Chadwick, for her efforts in taking up that bill, which was originally brought into the House by Tuku Morgan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219bf08efea1046f9962b4862667d4b90\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Move on. Move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6dd81bfd6b487fa54f094b0d19af61\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We have moved on, but I think most people realise that the bill before us was not progressed because of the greater wisdom and the care for New Zealanders from the National Party; it was, quite frankly, because of the numbers game. The M\u0101ori Party threatened that it would not support the National Party on other legislation like the increase in GST, which will hammer people as well, because the M\u0101ori Party wanted a deal to make progress in one of the most significant areas of preventable deaths and preventable harms in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe very basis of occupational health and safety legislation is that every employer and employee should do everything possible where they have identified a hazard to reduce and, if possible, eliminate it. But the National Party ignored that basis. This legislation was brought to the table only through the threats of the M\u0101ori Party. Well, I guess we have moved on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party and all of us here acknowledge the progress, but there is more to be done. We need to remove displays from the point of sale for tobacco. Where is the National Party on that matter? I have not heard a speaker say that that is the next thing National will do. Did members hear that from the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dfdc6785bfd4176b1b6cd138565e5ac\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: No, not from one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202acd5b3d6ea42fc9048fadfa88ceb3f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Have those members shown any vision or any care? Do they care? No, they do not care. Those members over there are squirming a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221499e86b7a264874a75dbcc38b35e23f\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re not squirming, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0384ff9393048f0b5f5bb1180f55b84\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they are. I remind those members so that the lessons of history are learnt and we do not repeat the same mistakes. All the collective wisdom of the people in the House, in getting up and making these statements, is that they welcome our support for legislation that we will bring to the House to progress this matter when we get back into Government next year. It will be about displays and it will be about more funding for public health initiatives. It will be in areas where greater education has shown to make an effect on smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe still have too many people dying from smoking. In fact, the statistics on M\u0101ori women are still quite disturbing. I know that Georgina te Heuheu over there wants to support this legislation and does so with genuine commitment, unlike the vast majority of her colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAs I said, the House knows our position. We have spoken of it and it has always been so. It was led by Helen Clark; we have to acknowledge that going way back. Trying to get smoking banned from restaurants was at first horrific. Apparently, the sky would fall in! When we proposed it for bars, I have to say\u2014and I have said to many people\u2014that one of the things I considered a real win as a Minister was to get the Hotel Association into my office, assisting me to progress the legislation that banned smoking in bars. In the end, it saw the wisdom in moving on this matter. It was better for its workers and its businesses, because they did not have the cost of cleaning up. It came in to assist us, in spite of its original concern about the effect on the association\u2019s businesses. It saw the wisdom; we won it over. The association requested that the legislation be applied right across all clubs as well, and we did that. I think that was fair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224502699592b248968d30d24d0a6c9127\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: And not have separate rooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572864bc472c42199d702408afc51820\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We were concerned about, firstly, the health of the workers, and then, of course, the benefit of their businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe made huge progress in that area. I do not know how many people\u2019s lives we have saved, but the simple fact is that if we can stop someone from taking up smoking or get them to give up smoking, then we extend their life. It is as simple as that. Every cigarette someone has will affect their health and reduce their life. Some people come along and say that they know someone who is 95 years and smoking. Well, that is right, but they might have lived to 105 years if they had not smoked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear. The evidence is quite stark, and the reality is quite alarming. We still allow it; I know that Hone Harawira has sought a complete ban on cigarettes. The reality is that marijuana is banned\u2014it is illegal to smoke marijuana\u2014but large numbers of people still smoke it. So a legal ban will not stop the problem. It will not reduce the deaths and misery caused by tobacco. We have to improve the education and we have to change the culture. I think we almost have got to the point where it is now socially unacceptable to smoke in front of someone else and blow smoke over them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c20393b871c4610a2cea397587471a6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Jonathan Coleman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228066be9b42fa452a8625814e450173aa\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The odd National Party person tries to disprove that generally held view; thankfully, not too many of them do. Some can learn, and I am sure that he, too, will be voting for this legislation, which is great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe issue of cut-backs in funding for education in the area of tobacco and harm reduction is a major concern. We expect this Government to reinstate that money, if it is true to its word. We have listened to all the wonderful speeches made in the House, which are short but none the less well worded, if not well meaning. We would like to see the Minister of Health, Tony Ryall, front up and reinstate some of the money that Labour had in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220556979139804000aafd049d9023c16b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He should stop hiding in his office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3be7e6ba497473a9e2f8c584d18aa6e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. It would be too much for Tony Ryall to come to the Chamber and speak in support of the bill. We cannot expect that level of the \u201Ch\u201D word from that man\u2014we cannot. He has been in this House, time and time again, railing against Labour\u2019s initiatives to try to improve the health of New Zealanders. When he was in Opposition he slammed us. I guess we have to acknowledge that at least he has the decency not to come down here and be a total \u201Ch\u201D on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are a number of initiatives. There is still some debate on the issues of nicotine replacement therapy, smokeless cigarettes, the use of chewing tobacco, and the other initiatives. Those proposals are put forward by well-intentioned, well-meaning people who want to cut down the use of cigarettes in this country. I am afraid I am one of those people who say that if people want to cut the habit, they should just go cold turkey. People can give up cigarettes. I smoked cigarettes for 9 years. It is possible to give it up, and I am not saying that just because I did it. But with the assistance that we currently have in place, such as nicotine replacement therapy, and all the support and all the smart initiatives that we have, people can give up smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI tell those people who might be listening tonight to have faith and to believe in themselves. When they do, they will be better off, their family will be better off, their children will not be inspired to take up cigarettes, and this country will be better off, because we will save billions of dollars in health expenditure. For that reason alone I guess Tony Ryall should be here supporting the bill. It is a shame he is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00225d00959c847c4f63ae34c18ca980a740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d00959c847c4f63ae34c18ca980a740\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E In addition to adding my acknowledgment to those who have been mentioned in this debate, particularly the Associate Minister of Health, Tariana Turia, and Iain Lees-Galloway, I also acknowledge my friends at the Otago-Southland division of the Cancer Society, and in particular its Health Promotion Manager, Penelope Scott, for the information and empirical research that she sent me, for her persistence, and, above all, for her patience. The patience won out in the end. I commend the Smoke-free Environment (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002246f0a5bc3c2b49349eb626892fd1371f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 40; Green Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2 (Boscawen, Hide); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2 (Calvert, Roy).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001199\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 108, Noes 3.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa8cb34b009a4d0f95a9dfb7f37de78e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa8cb34b009a4d0f95a9dfb7f37de78e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Assoicate Minister of Health: I move, That the Health Committee consider the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 8 April 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022181b45a5a73a48bbbb78366cf5c40de6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022181b45a5a73a48bbbb78366cf5c40de6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to check something. I was listening at the beginning of the bill to my colleague the Minister of Internal Affairs, and he mentioned the committee, but I am not sure that he mentioned\u2014[Interruption] He did mention the date? I have assurance from the Clerk; therefore, I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3cc5273aa444673ab162b6767452cda\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We checked this time from a previous occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ccf432134b864887aa37d9301bf65a89\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229eeab1f5ee1c4a308587f389781be46c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00220d93308581184346acddaf2520bd110e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d93308581184346acddaf2520bd110e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (Minister for Courts) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Customs: I move, That the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The bill was introduced to Parliament in September 2010 and had its first reading on 15 September 2010. It has been reported back from the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I would like to thank the members of the committee for the prompt attention they gave to this bill. This bill is an omnibus bill. It amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 and the Biosecurity Act 1993. The amendments make important improvements to support the sharing of information across border sector agencies. These amendments will ensure the Customs Service and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry meet the Government\u2019s priorities in relation to the delivery of the joint border management system and support an effective collaboration at the border. It also provides for improvements in the effectiveness of customs law enforcement. The amendments will restore the level of effectiveness to the administrative penalty and petty offence schemes that was intended when the Customs and Excise Act was passed in 1996. Finally, the bill addresses emerging customs and border management issues and provides clarity to existing legislative provisions to improve administration of the Customs and Excise Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe bill contains three categories of amendments. Firstly, there are amendments to provide for planned information-sharing by the Customs Service with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and across a range of border agencies. Secondly, there are amendments to enhance the effectiveness of customs law enforcement mechanisms, and, thirdly, there are nine smaller amendments to clarify provisions within the Customs and Excise Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe identification and management of border risk requires information to be accessed and shared by border agencies. The Government has recently agreed to $75.9 million funding for the first tranche of a new border management system, which will provide the Customs Service and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry with access to information needed to identify border risks. The current statutory provision for information sharing allows for information to be shared on a case by case basis. This is not sufficient to cover the quantity of information and the process for information sharing between the Customs Service and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe bill contains amendments to the Customs and Excise Act and the Biosecurity Act that are necessary to support shared access to information by the Customs Service and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry under the new joint border management system. They also provide a legal framework to support interim information-sharing projects between the Customs Service and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry until the joint border management system is established. Further, the Customs Service is involved with a number of centres that operate jointly with staff from different agencies, such as the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Immigration Service, the police, the Ministry of Defence, and others. These centres provide a mechanism for sharing staff and intelligence to ensure that border risks are identified and effectively managed. The existing statutory provisions relating to such information sharing are unnecessarily complex. Given the Customs Service\u2019s range of agency interrelationships and connections, the amendments in the bill establish an information-sharing framework that will enable the Customs Service to manage the access to, and the sharing of, border information by the relevant agencies more efficiently and more effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Justice and Electoral Committee has proposed a series of amendments that clarify the information-sharing provisions in the bill. The committee\u2019s proposal sets out criteria that the Minister of Customs must consider and consult on before recommending the making of regulations under the proposed information-sharing framework. The committee has also recommended that the public is notified of the intention to undertake consultation. These amendments will increase the rigour of the information-sharing regime and provide confidence to business and individuals about the way the information they entrust to the Government is being treated. In addition, the committee has proposed an amendment that any regulations made under the framework must be confirmed by Parliament. The Minister in charge of the bill is very happy to accept these amendments in order to provide assurance to members of the public and the trading community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn terms of the enforcement and compliance provisions, the Customs Service\u2019s assessment of risk relies heavily on the quality and accuracy of the information provided by importers. The administrative penalty scheme that operates under the Customs and Excise Act is no longer providing a sufficient incentive for compliance by the importing community. The existing provisions relating to the petty offences regime are very limited in their scope and reflect the circumstances that applied when the Customs and Excise Act was originally passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Customs Service has identified amendments to restore the level of effectiveness intended when these schemes commenced. The second set of amendments will strengthen the administrative penalty regime by, first, increasing the minimum penalties to be applied as administrative penalties; secondly, increasing the minimum penalties that can be dealt with as administrative penalties; thirdly, adapting the penalty regime to reflect the degree of culpability; and, fourthly, including in the estimation of revenue avoided the GST that is otherwise payable. The amendments will also extend the range of provisions that can be dealt with as minor offences under the petty offences regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Justice and Electoral Committee has proposed an amendment that makes it clear that all imports with a value of less than $1,000 fall within the administrative penalty regime. Again, the Minister in charge of the bill is happy to support this amendment. The bill also includes nine amendments that are required to either clarify existing provisions or address new situations that have emerged since the Act was passed in 1996. They clarify licensing and excise liability requirements for biofuels and biofuel blends, and reduce compliance costs for low-volume producers; allow the use of reasonable force within certain customs-controlled areas to detain people or compel unauthorised persons to leave; enable the Customs Service to prevent goods from entering New Zealand that have been designed, manufactured, or adapted to facilitate a crime of dishonesty\u2014for example, card skimmers\u2014create a specific offence for injuring or killing a customs dog; enable goods that must be imported in multiple shipments to be managed as if they were a single shipment; allow for the making of regulations to define the point at which an export entry is deemed to have been made; define when a postal article has been produced or delivered to a customs officer; and provide the specific method for calculating the value of temporarily imported goods at the time of exportation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Justice and Electoral Committee has proposed a number of amendments, including the insertion of definitions of \u201Cbiofuel\u201D and \u201Cbiofuel blend\u201D in the bill, and a clarification of when blending of biofuel for home consumption occurs. The amendments also enhance customs law enforcement, which is essential to ensure the Government can prevent the importation of drugs and precursors and prevent other illegal activity at the border, and can contribute to the prosperity of the country. Again, the Minister in charge of the bill thanks the Justice and Electoral Committee for completing its work on the bill in such a compressed time frame. I commend the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220cda4600af8041519f3322e6f86fb9f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cda4600af8041519f3322e6f86fb9f3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was a full and comprehensive speech from the Minister for Courts, and I think she summarised well the main points of the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill after its report back to the House. I also thank the Justice and Electoral Committee, because in my reading of it, it has made a couple of changes here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228873d19b85d24540935a98a98237a1fc\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Pretty fundamental.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c9354c3cc5143b9910eec8c25c21e92\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fundamental changes, which have made a huge difference to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill, which I made a brief speech on as it came through the House in its first reading, had not been properly scrutinised. I think we underestimated what it was possible to do in the bill. In the end it was kind of a classic Tory piece of legislation, really. On one hand, the Government had omitted the legal obligation for the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, in collecting information, to transfer it back to the Customs Service, but, on the other hand, it said that the objective of the whole bill was coordination, collaboration, and more effective border management. Well, if one leaves out something as basic as that, it raises the question as to how good the bill was when it was originally drafted, or what the intention was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe other thing that was included in the bill\u2014and the select committee has astutely changed this\u2014was the provisions on information and information sharing. What Auckland International Airport did was to expose itself completely at the select committee, because if there is one organisation that is an absolute monopoly and that has abused that monopoly position time and time again\u2014and, quite frankly, there does not seem to be any hope of anyone pulling it under control\u2014then it is Auckland International Airport. Almost 80 percent of the people coming into this country\u2014[Interruption] That is right; ask Air New Zealand what they think of Auckland International Airport. That is right. Well, Auckland International Airport said that it wanted the information from people coming in on the planes because it wanted to share that with the retailers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5b2e5fadb84c9b93a85b71c20faf7f\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: With the who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee0a32970bd345a297b68251b174c6f4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The retailers. The retailers at the Auckland International Airport are a tightly controlled bunch, because, with the way it is set up, it is the biggest rort in the country. Good luck to them, but most would say that, under the Commerce Act and under the current arrangements in New Zealand, it is a bit of a rort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce1ca8acf374491a6f89bf559a7f6a0\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: You have to walk through them to get to the customs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b5aca6e9d646a5b9f1b85af59b7888\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, it is almost impossible to get in and out of customs in New Zealand now without knocking over at least 10 bottles of gin, a carton of cigarettes, and all the perfume, because one is forced to go through the retail area. To be fair, it is a model used around the rest of the world, but we seem to be copying all the worst things. Anyway, the point is that this information, rather than being gathered for biosecurity reasons\u2014[Interruption]; thank God I am deaf and I cannot hear Paul Quinn\u2014and for true border security reasons, the priority was that it would be passed back to the retailers at Auckland International Airport so that they could make more bucks from people. The select committee\u2014and I do not know whether that member was on it; probably not, because it made a good decision here\u2014astutely said that that was going beyond the pale. That was going too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe objective of this legislation is to gather information so that we can improve the border management system in this country. The objective is not to improve the retail sales of Auckland International Airport. It is still possible for that to happen, if the Minister undertakes an extensive consultation process. At least the safeguards are there, and it is not the quick-fix solution that could have been possible had the bill passed through the system without amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of good things in the bill, and one of them concerns biofuels. The definition of biofuels was unclear for some people, such as fuel manufacturers, and the fact is that now people, if they are as innovative as we hope they will be in the future, are producing their own biofuels for their own use, and they will not get caught up in paying the excise on that. That is a very good incentive. As I was not a member of the committee, I would like someone to answer this question: did consideration of that exemption go to individual farmers who, in my view, in the very near future, through bio-digesters, will be producing their own biofuel to run their farming operations? There is a pig farmer in the country doing it now, but there will be dairy farmers doing it in the very near future. The question is: should the Government consider, or did the select committee consider, whether they too should have an exemption from the excise? I personally would support it. I think Labour would support that, because it really does start to make smart use of methane, which otherwise would be expelled into the atmosphere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b49fde6df44f30b4ed2493dc1e2f0c\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Bio-diesel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48f61dcc74c4c989fbb7e86d06a4839\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Bio-diesel\u2014you name it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI say there will be smart farmers who within 5 years will be completely self-sufficient in energy production and utilisation. Farmers have the ability to do that if they are given the right incentives. The select committee, in its wisdom, saw that incentives should be in place for domestic users and producers. The committee should perhaps have gone one step further, although perhaps its members had a directive from the Minister. The bringing in of some coordination at the border is something that the next Labour speaker, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, initiated while she was Minister. I am privileged to be able to speak before her. She will give a far more interesting and informative speech than mine, but there are a couple of key points that I thought I should make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EShe was the Minister when these things were initiated, and I am sure she will be pleased to speak on the bill. Coordination and collaboration is a must, in terms of joint border systems. I suspect that one of the things that might emerge from this in the not too distant future is payment by the tourism industry for some of the joint border management systems. Indeed it should not be forgotten that the previous National Government attempted to implement a border charge and failed, because it did not conduct a proper consultation. I put on record my assertion that the National Government will put up the proposal in the very near future that the tourism industry should indeed pay part of the joint management outcomes. I am not going to get into the debate here, but it should be ready for that coming down the track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI will not say too much more, other than that Labour supports the bill coming back to the House. It is progress. It allows for better technology and better coordination of the joint border agencies. We should not forget that there are a number of them, such as the Ministry of Agriculture of Forestry, which, of course, runs Biosecurity New Zealand, the Aviation Security Service, which runs the security side of it, and the Customs Service, the Police, and the Immigration Service. The coordination has not always been what it should be. This bill will ensure that information is passed between those agencies, and the amendment that the select committee brought into place ensures that the information that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry gets goes back to the Customs Service. It was a more than minor omission, I would say, in the original drafting of the bill. I congratulate the select committee on doing that. I cannot help but applaud the committee for providing better incentives for biofuel production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere is a whole list of little things that the bill also does, but I will not run through them all other than to say that Labour welcomes this bill back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022696a462da1a04c58b90c4fdd18a65a5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022696a462da1a04c58b90c4fdd18a65a5d\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to agree with the previous speaker, Damien O\u2019Connor. This is a sterling piece of work from the Justice and Electoral Committee. There are six members in the House tonight who no doubt will take a short call at some stage. I thank the committee for its collaborative approach. The fact is that we do all our dirty washing behind closed doors. We set about giving some enhancement to this bill after it came before the House. There were some issues raised, not only by submitters but also some were dreamed up by the committee members themselves. The key messages, of course, are that National is focused on preventing the importation of drugs and precursors, and other illegal activity at the border. P is destroying families and communities in areas around New Zealand, and the people who import it must be stopped. Border management is dependent on the effective sharing of information among agencies operating at the border. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002262a92497046843f6b7fe03cc49da9cad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262a92497046843f6b7fe03cc49da9cad\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I listened very carefully to the Minister of Customs\u2019 speech introducing the bill and tried to figure out what was urgent about it. If it was so urgent, we would be doing not only the second reading but we would be completing the final stages of the bill. So one has to wonder what the Government\u2019s underlying agenda is, with specific regard to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want to comment, also, on the fact that for all the bills that have been pushed through under this urgency motion, by the officials from the Customs Service being present in the House they have shown their diligence for ensuring that whatever they put their hand to, they will do good work on. My comments are regarding the sophisticated nature of the way in which the Customs Service is currently working at the border, but also in terms of the backroom functions. So the fact that the Government is continuing to pursue a joint border management system bodes well for an integrated at-border service of all our various agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are a number of issues that I want to bring to the attention of the House. In summary, they are aspects that, I think, are improvements. The point was made previously that Labour is happy to support the bill, with specific regard to information sharing at the border and the way in which the Customs Service and MAF Biosecurity New Zealand can work better together. I suspect that although it was an omission in previous legislation, the opportunity to strengthen information sharing between the Customs Service and MAF Biosecurity will lead to some operational efficiencies that can only improve risk profiling and identifying how at-border services can be conducted better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI have a particular question on operational efficiency. New Zealand is in the position of the 100 percent X-raying of, for example, passenger luggage at airports. If that is to change, then it is absolutely necessary that the Customs Service and MAF Biosecurity are sharing information and identifying potential areas of risk, in terms of the origins of the passengers. It will require not only border agencies to share information but for them to have a better arrangement with airline companies, so that they are sharing their passenger records and more comprehensive risk profiling is able to be conducted. In my small time managing this portfolio we had some vociferous objections from some airline agencies about releasing the records and we went through quite a convoluted process. At the time it was still marginally unresolved. I highlight the point that although information sharing of the border agencies is necessary\u2014absolutely necessary\u2014a comprehensive risk profiling assessment has to include the airlines as well in order to make sure that that information is comprehensively included into an at-border strategy of this nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn the minor amendments, I noted about four particular amendments that would be useful to business. Firstly, the amendment outlined previously about no excise on domestic biofuel production, and clarifying that within the legislation, is very helpful. It is much the same type of clarification that exists in the way we treat tobacco for personal consumption, with no excise charged for that. I think the issue raised by my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor is a very valid one, and, in terms of further policy work, it could be a useful approach to forecast where the opportunity could be in biofuel production for domestic use in farming operations. I think that is an absolutely valid point and should, at some point in this debate, at least be responded to or acknowledged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other technical amendment is the enabling of imported goods in multiple shipments to be managed as if they were a single shipment. That will be an improvement to the way in which things are accounted for now, and business will welcome that improvement. Another improvement will be allowing for the regulation to define the point at which an export entry is deemed to have been made, and providing the specific method for calculating the value of temporarily imported goods at the time of exportation. Those specific amendments, I can see, are very useful, and business will welcome that. With regard to the issue of improving administrative and petty offence provisions for the Customs and Excise Act, this legislation gives the chief executive powers to set penalties more in line with the times. I think that that, again, is a useful enhancement of the legislation. It also updates and modernises the penalty provisions to be in line with offences that are being caused. So those are very useful technical amendments there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn my last point, I come back to the issue of information sharing at the border, because information sharing is as good as the systems we have in place. I am not on the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I have not been a part of the financial review, but I hope there will continue to be a strong platform to invest in the CusMod computer system that the Customs Service has, and also to invest in the interoperability of the Customs Service information technology systems, immigration system, and the other at-border agency systems, so those systems can at least talk to one another. It is one thing to share information, but interoperability of information technology systems is where it needs to get to, and that will be a real opportunity, especially with immigration, in the first instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EA number of issues were brought up at the Justice and Electoral Committee. Damien highlighted one of them regarding the Minister being amenable to information being shared with, for example, an airport company. I have a concern about that. I am absolutely supportive of information being shared for the purposes of risk profiling and maintaining security of New Zealand\u2019s interests at the border, but if it is for retail or commercial benefits to an airport company, I cannot quite see why the Minister would want information shared for that type of outcome. In whose interest is it? It is certainly not in the Minister\u2019s interest to forward the financial or retail opportunities for any airport, for that matter. I have raised a concern on that front because it was also highlighted through the submission process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe final point on the issue of information sharing is that in the bill there is a provision for the chief executive to review the way information sharing has been implemented after 5 years . That is useful, because we know with a service like the Customs Service that we should expect at least every couple of years it will need the Customs and Excise Act to continue to be updated and improved as operational efficiencies arise out of a joint border management system. So we can expect that the review will bring forward only further efficiencies and improvements to the way things are done at the border. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1dd131420b24b35ad985c8353c6cbd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1dd131420b24b35ad985c8353c6cbd1\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E When Parliaments in the future look back at this Parliament, they will remember the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This bill is to customs what custard is to crumble, what Barry White is to soul, and what John Boscawen is to the ACT Party. So it is with great pleasure and humility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b030e7a49660460cacf1e900ce5a3ea2\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: A certain amount of humility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91fbe73815b45aabc00356299a83cc0\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as much humility as I can muster\u2014that I commend this great, historic bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204367f95be74615be830b1b7d62f9fa\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: At this time of night?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ce97b872a854d9c8f9d15ad9676a2e8\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to talk a bit more. Why should one short-change oneself on a bill that is as good as this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis bill is about border management, which, of course, is dependent, as the Hon Nanaia Mahuta said, on effective sharing of information. When we think about what the world needs more of, we know that it is effective sharing of information. We need to do that among agencies operating at the border. I can tell members, having gone down to the Port of Tauranga and talked with its customs officials, how important they say it is to make sure they are sharing information with the other ports all around the country, and just how important our borders are. We have seen that in so many areas recently, like P\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c12a297cca43fc89854ef6359e0c6b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This speech was good at the start. Is the end any good? The middle is not so good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651bda36e36c4ea49ea7f95e3225f3a0\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I will end where I started, actually, I tell Grant Robertson. I will get back to those sorts of Churchillian, big-picture themes. But I want to delve down into the detail, because I think that is something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d7c70d251049449d26937836465c4c\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a details person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2afb3a32384b62bd4702185cfddd9b\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I am; we have talked about this before. I think we need to get into some things when we talk about customs. The first thing is border security, in terms of ensuring we do not have criminal activity coming through the ports. P has come through, and I have had a concern in the past about its coming through the borders; I think this bill goes towards doing something quite significant about that. That is why I said at the start of my speech that this bill is significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to say about this bill is what it will mean\u2014actually, that thought has just gone from my head, so I think I will keep talking about P. The other thing I say is that National, when we think about this bill, is focused on preventing the importing of drugs and precursors, and other illegal activity at the border. We all know the devastating effect that P is having in communities. One of the things that concerned me when I went to the Port of Tauranga and I talked with the customs officials was the way in which stopping illegal activities coming through the borders is potentially hit and miss. They are not necessarily checking everything, and we can understand why they are not. Of course, it would be prohibitively expensive, and it would be impractical at many levels, so there is sort of a random process at best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAt the core of this very, very significant bill we are making sure that information is shared, that ports work together, and that customs officials work together. I will go through three categories of amendments that the bill deals with. Firstly, we are providing for planned information-sharing in the border sector and the implementation of the joint border management system. Secondly, we are enhancing the effectiveness of law enforcement. Thirdly, we are addressing emerging customs and border management issues, and providing clarity to existing legislative provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EHaving moved from the big picture and the significant things this bill does, we then get to the detail: through information sharing, and many other things the bill does, we see that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4456ad21d9405ca9dc3065d4c11d7f\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Simon, that note says: \u201CSit down.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272bbc9992a3e493b89da248060c8f3f6\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I just return, though, to where I was at the start, which is saying that one day people will look back on these speeches. They will read this speech and it will read much, much better than it sounds right now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb398d4f99f48fba39197c0de5d0275\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca96c24077d4170b220d7d580a743b0\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It will sound much, much better. They will remember this bill for all these amazing things that it is doing for the Customs Service and the great customs officials all around the country, and for life in the cosmos and the vibe in general. This is a very proud moment for this Parliament. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3445a3ad0774c3d8083c661271f9702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3445a3ad0774c3d8083c661271f9702\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to acknowledge the bravery and courage of the previous speaker, Simon Bridges. I think he spoke about 50 times as long as any other National member. That is utterly commendable. The whip has been on the phone, and I want to tell members something. Oops! Gerry Brownlee is here; Simon Bridges is in big trouble! But we will stick up for that member because he had the courage to talk in this Chamber, and that is really good. Simon Bridges said that the most important thing was information sharing, and I think he will nod when I say that it is about the importance of information sharing. If National had shared a bit of information over the last day or two, then the Parliament would not be in the shambles that it is in today. It is an utter shambles; it shows a lack of planning and information sharing. It is a big joke. I think we have a pretty good relationship on the Justice and Electoral Committee, and certainly compared with the committee run by Sandra Goudie. Simon Bridges has shown courage tonight. He felt passionate enough about the bill to baulk at, or disobey, the orders to make short speeches. He put hand on heart, was passionate about the bill, and was going to speak on it. It is not often I pay tribute to National members but I put on record tonight my acknowledgment of the utter courage of Simon Bridges, who spoke for probably 5 minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227896349e9daf48e1945271d4254780f2\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221509f802441c451db117835fd382e8e7\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: He spoke for at least 5 minutes or maybe even 6 minutes. Clearly, there was an instruction for Government members to speak for 30 seconds. His speech has called to the attention of a few of the big guns from National, if I can call them that\u2014I think members know who I mean\u2014that Simon Bridges has shown that courage. I think everyone, or certainly everyone on this side, will acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI return to the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Others Matters) Amendment Bill. As others have said, I say that Labour supports this bill. As a member of the very hard-working Justice and Electoral Committee, I thank all the committee members. I specifically acknowledge Su\u2019a William Sio, who voluntarily came on to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b45c071989114e248ac2fd0cb354fe2d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the kind of guy he is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c626b19bc0a4779b493f953b28bfc08\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: That is the sort of guy we are dealing with. He saw that this bill was really important. Jacinda Ardern was kind enough to step aside and allow Su\u00B4a William Sio\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223ee9b06e484479cb03a349f81a55380\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: She was dragged aside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e001bfa262c44f9948086123adb9674\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: There was a bit of a dust-up between Jacinda Ardern and me but in the end she stepped down, and Su\u00B4a William Sio was able to have input. If we look at the changes that happened during the select committee process, I think all members would acknowledge the role of Su\u00B4a William Sio, along with everybody else. We all know that the purpose of the bill is about information sharing, and that is something Simon Bridges spoke very much about. The bill improves the thresholds and processes for administrative and offence provisions of the Customs and Excise Act. Other minor amendments provide clarity to the existing provisions. Although it makes a number of minor changes, which I could go through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45a39ef663447ea80f0b991ea8ee3a8\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291770d39295a4504a0c695cc387ec02d\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I will go through them, if time permits. But there is just so much to go through. The substantive change, and the one the committee gave the most attention to, was around regulation-making powers. That section is not particularly comprehensive but after receiving submissions, giving them very careful consideration, and committee members putting on their thinking caps, we recognised that this was the most important part. I think that would be fair to say, and I look to Simon Bridges to acknowledge that that change was one of the most important ones. Previously, the section had just required that the Minister, before making regulations, would consult the Privacy Commissioner and some agencies that may be affected. But after consideration, and some very good advice, and points that were raised through the submission process, the committee decided to have a much more comprehensive process for recommending the making of regulations under that section. That was to make sure that there was consistency, for example, whether the regulations were consistent with the purpose, whether the border information to be made available to an accessing agency under the proposed regulations included personal information, whom the information was to be made available to, and the amount of information to be made available\u2014whether it represented a significant proportion of border information, its sensitivity, and its level of accuracy, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EPart of that was because the primary purpose is about sharing information and the safety of the border\u2014acknowledging that anything that comes into New Zealand is either by air or sea. So that is really important. Also it acknowledges the privacy rights of individuals. If that information is not essential for border control, then that information should not be shared around, willy-nilly. That was probably the most comprehensive part that the select committee gave its attention to. I see Mr Bridges nodding again, but that part was not the only part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce5525ac58c141f6b0081ac87d06e607\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Sagely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce8b1ef37904b11ab42337640e3dd46\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Sagely nodding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016a78f333bd4289ad4d45f73e6946c0\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Wisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d8e6bad66349879dd7eae4ffd9cc60\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: And wisely nodding. There were other matters that were perhaps not quite as important but still were matters that improved the bill. There was the issue around biofuels\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c3ccd90819455b8cd73984f2566dbb\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member but the time has come for me to leave the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Saturday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094ed1fcff16844589a91ff6adb674984a001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227892d2a1230a479894e39625054dde76\u0022\u003EThursday, 9 December 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229069faf577064abba006e6b97ce54475\u0022\u003E(continued on Saturday, 11 December 2010)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f5f4e8054794f59bdeed0043238d08b\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a345876146aa45a6bb5f92256d2f6c68\u0022\u003EParliamentary Complex Staff\u2014Expression of Thanks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227a2abdfd6b064189a12c8013c7ca575a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a2abdfd6b064189a12c8013c7ca575a\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask your indulgence, before the day descends into a total shambles, to recognise and thank all the workers in the parliamentary complex who have come in on a Saturday to serve our members of Parliament through until midnight. We deeply appreciate the work they will be doing for us today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34971cfb79c4ede9ffa90c78e4fd3cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34971cfb79c4ede9ffa90c78e4fd3cb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Although the member\u2019s sentiments are heartfelt and are shared by everybody, that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ad847dfd49458c9e2ec62c7d687bfb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You used to be on the side of the workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eefcd6319bc4de791c228148eb7d24b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I see that that member wants an early shower, or maybe a requirement for him to be in the House until midnight reading his own speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259055c2700764f36812c581489da1787\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208bc815c17e94f708c3d9f8e19edea75\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000011\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u0022abc276a1ab6e40beab83cc25077c0778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abc276a1ab6e40beab83cc25077c0778\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to stand and speak very briefly to the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Once again, very little needs to be said in this reading, simply because, as all those who have read the amended version of the bill and the report accompanying it will see, this bill has been reported back to the House with the unanimous support of the Justice and Electoral Committee. Given that that is the case, I have nothing further to say. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a066cd1a1d9145eca173b3ac5598f8cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a066cd1a1d9145eca173b3ac5598f8cb\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe2615b4e404226bc3c4507942867c3\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What a speech! That\u2019s amazing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d451dcd70c314a97958c6103e70e2e7d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! I think I would give Mr Quinn\u2019s speech 1 or 1\u00BD out of 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd82bae514045f8bc78aa9a20394909\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Give it 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a1bf55287448628e2b83e995191744\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would give that speech 1 out of 10. Thank goodness Mr Quinn was here to kick us off this morning with an energetic speech on the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill! On this fine Wellington Saturday morning I am thrilled to be here speaking about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221561e8c463f84fae83ce4b819b64b447\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s off home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d838e11d5a44649774e2e6f9c4a1ce\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Paul Quinn has done his day\u2019s work; he has gone. Gerry has done his day\u2019s work; he is off home. But we are happy to be here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5d9eb090dd48bba36703518309681c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is Paul Quinn your constituent or Annette\u2019s in Roseneath?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7f5827cea9d4c6abe476601401afbaa\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He is in Annette King\u2019s electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da76de72ddcd4045bea4ae4c146e6028\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The first Saturday\u2019s work he\u2019s done in his entire political career so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f45211cb0424546b2bd8b8608f8a33d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think so, I say to Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill has been improved by the Justice and Electoral Committee. That committee is chaired by Chester Borrows, who I do not think is appreciated on that side of the House for the full extent of his abilities. The committee did some excellent work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e08e3c471749f3acb8901e35838a91\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He should have got Pansy\u2019s job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460c4ceeb9e64eb498bd68abfb798f50\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That has actually been discussed\u2014whether Chester Borrows should be in Cabinet, and who is keeping him out of Cabinet on that side of the House. I am not sure; it could be Mr Quinn\u2019s work in the background yet again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a95282485bb4fa29898dcbf7e3cc9eb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u201CMr Quinn\u201D and \u201Cwork\u201D in one sentence? Wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cea61a146db4553b2bb4c785c29ccf8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is true; sorry. It is impossible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis bill has come back to the House in a significantly improved form. I have to say that my very good colleague Su\u2019a William Sio, who is the Labour Party\u2019s spokesperson on customs, actually came to some caucus members about this bill, because he had some very particular concerns about the question of information sharing. A number of us in the caucus, when we actually looked at the bill, shared those concerns with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBefore the bill was referred to the select committee it seemed to have a very open approach around the question of information sharing. If we refer to new section 282B, \u201CAccess by accessing agency to border information\u201D, which is inserted by clause 24 of the bill, we see that it says: \u201C(1) The purpose of this section is to facilitate the exchange of information between agencies at the border to enable them to co-ordinate their border protection functions.\u201D I think everybody in the House would want to see a well-coordinated, well-organised border system. There obviously are multiple agencies involved here: MAF Biosecurity New Zealand, the Customs Service, the police, and so on. They need to be able to work together well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut if we move to new section 282B(2), in clause 24, we see that it states: \u201CAn accessing agency may, for the purpose of this section, access any border information held by a holder agency if the access is authorised by regulations made under this Act.\u201D That is a very open provision. That provision says that agencies that have access as defined under this bill can have any information whatsoever held by those other agencies. The caveats on this provision are included in new section 286A, \u201CRegulations relating to information sharing\u201D, inserted by clause 25. The first of those caveats is that the Governor-General may, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister, make regulations specifying who those agencies are. In effect, we were setting up a process by which information could be shared among these agencies simply by Order in Council\u2014simply by the Minister saying: \u201CI think this should happen.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs has been spoken about already in the debate on this reading, Auckland International Airport, as an agency involved in this bill, began to think this provision was interesting and began to wonder what it might be able to do with it. It came to the select committee, as I understand it, and talked about the fact that it was very interested in sharing information about who might be arriving on a flight so that it could perhaps tailor what products were available in the shops at Auckland International Airport. That seems to be a somewhat unusual approach to sharing border information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293f90fce73e34b4985ddce1f5fb8a65c\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It would assist some members of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f46d9d478584a58bfa59015e267931f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It may be quite easy. They could make sure there was a large display of chocolates at the door\u2014which might be of some interest to some members on the other side of the House\u2014or possibly a large display of interesting drinks that people might like to buy when they come in to the airport. Auckland International Airport was very keen to get that information and use it as a commercial opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3bc0765f1554423a1600a896353122f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Sammy Wong is on the way again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164b87ed387348b298d36a2f43fa0d13\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014they may have been able to see which members and their spouses and so on were finding their way into the country, and tailor the goods available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFrom the point of view of this side of the House, that provision raised some alarm bells, and obviously it also did for the rest of the select committee. When Chester Borrows spoke last night he made the point that the committee members not only took on board the advice of officials that there was a need to tighten up but also put in some additional matters themselves. Those additional matters are now provided in new section 286A(2), which states: \u201CBefore recommending the making of regulations under this section, the Minister must consider the following matters\u201D, and there are a large number of matters that the Minister needs to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOne point that is raised is whether personal information is included within the information that is being shared. I think that highlights some of the key concerns, which are that privacy would be heavily compromised, and that people who had given information in good faith to a border agency\u2014perhaps the Immigration Service, perhaps the Customs Service\u2014could find that information being given out to another agency in a way that they would personally not approve of. That is the first consideration the Minister must have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Minister also has to consider the amount of personal information that is being made available, whether it is appropriate for the needs of the accessing agency, whether it represents a significant proportion of the border information, whether it is everything the agency needs to know, how sensitive the information might be, and the level of accuracy of the information. There is no particular test on these agencies ensuring that the information is strictly accurate, yet it is being shared. That could have some consequences for people whose information is at hand there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPerhaps more important is that fact that in subsection (3) of new section 286A there is a series of things that the Minister must do before recommending the making of regulations. I know that the current Minister of Customs, Maurice Williamson, is not a man who likes any kind of compulsion. He does not like to be told what to do, particularly by his own leadership. But now, under subsection (3), there are some things he must do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe first of the things he must do is consult the Privacy Commissioner. The select committee has put that very important check and balance in place. The Privacy Commissioner has an independent status and role\u2014and we will be talking shortly, in a debate on another bill, about the importance of independence for core and important officers who work on behalf of us through the Public Service. But, as I said, the Privacy Commissioner has that independence. The Minister must consult the Privacy Commissioner if information is to be shared in this way. The agencies affected have to be consulted, as well as organisations considered by the Minister to be representative of interests likely to be substantially affected by the regulations. So the Minister must consult quite a wide ambit of people when these regulations are being put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMembers of the public are named in their own right as a category, and the Minister must give public notice of the consultation being undertaken. Then the Minister must take the results of that consultation into account. So the select committee has, I believe, done a very good job of ensuring that we now have a provision that enables border agencies to share information with each other within a framework that gives me confidence. It gives me, and, I hope, other members of the House, confidence that the process will not compromise personal privacy issues, will not compromise the overall security of New Zealand, and will not result in information being unreasonably shared\u2014for instance, for a highly commercial purpose that might not be appropriate in terms of where that information came from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is only one part of this bill, but I have focused on it because it was the part that alarmed me at the bill\u2019s first reading, when it was drawn to my attention by Su\u2019a William Sio. I think that the Justice and Electoral Committee has improved it, and I think it is a testament to the excellent members of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe select committee has made changes in terms of biofuels, and they have already been discussed by my colleague Nanaia Mahuta. They too are an improvement. I think, therefore, that the legislation that has returned to the House for a second reading is an example of why we should send bills to a select committee and should not use the urgency process to bypass proper scrutiny. What if this bill had gone through all stages, as other bills have in this process, had not had the scrutiny it needed, and had not been improved? That would have been a shame, and that has been seen far too often from this Government. But at least with this bill we have a process that has worked and much-improved legislation that, hopefully, most parties in this House will be able to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u002219d9750bc6b547cfa267aaef6bcc8fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d9750bc6b547cfa267aaef6bcc8fbf\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my privilege to participate in the second reading of the Customs and Excise (Joint Border Management Information Sharing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, which deals with a number of issues related to customs and excise. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df7a2d3df38047d093dd06da8b39fd6e\u0022\u003EState Sector Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022678a835cef71485690b98df3faae0833\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000049\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 7 December.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00225da022eac8d747ed86f1760d9d39148e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225da022eac8d747ed86f1760d9d39148e\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is crystal clear to all New Zealanders that after 9 years of a wasteful Labour Government we need to rebalance our economy. We also need to redesign and have a first-class State services sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe State Sector Management Bill achieves all of those goals. It provides for the formation of a new Ministry of Science and Innovation, it harmonises the National Library and Archives New Zealand under the Department of Internal Affairs, and, very importantly, it preserves the constitutional independence of the Chief Archivist. On that basis, it gives me pleasure to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00225da8a5ad9a1042d0884b163e3c645600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225da8a5ad9a1042d0884b163e3c645600\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E One has to wonder where that member, Colin King, was a decade ago, if he thinks this issue is all peace and light. Labour will definitely be opposing the State Sector Management Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThere is an element of this bill that we do not have a problem with at all, and that is in respect of the amalgamation of the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology to form the new Ministry of Science and Innovation. We think that is great. That is fine, and I think we will wait with great interest to see what will emerge from the new Ministry of Science and Innovation, especially with Minister Mapp at the helm. Great things are obviously\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6d15ba69bc24019ba3dce03b702e61d\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Anything could happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a11731fa244d4fb0f146a95889996d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: Anything could happen, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EBut the aspect of this bill that we are very opposed to, for very serious reasons, is the proposed merger of Archives New Zealand and the National Library with the Department of Internal Affairs. These institutions are a key part of our democracy\u2014absolutely key. They are about keeping Government departments transparent and the information held in those departments protected. When the Minister of State Services gave his opening speech on this bill, it was the most limp speech that I have ever heard. It was quietly given, in a measured way, and it looked as though it would not panic the punters. But, actually, this measure shows the determination of National to continue an unrelenting attack on public servants, whom they see as just being bureaucrats and bean counters, not as people who value their jobs, do their jobs with passion and pride, and take with great seriousness the roles and the functions of their jobs. The Minister saw this merger in his speech as being simply a little merger that tucks Archives New Zealand and the National Library\u2014including the iconic Alexander Turnbull Library\u2014into the Department of Internal Affairs. National\u2019s position is that we should not worry, because it has sorted out everything about the roles and functions of the National Librarian and of the Chief Archivist. It says we should trust it to know what it is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis merger looks to be all very simple and sort of logical, but, actually, behind it there is an insidious and unrelenting lack of respect for public servants who have done their job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI found it interesting that Colin King stood up and gave a silly little speech, just reading the opening paragraph of the commentary on the bill\u2014National members have been told to speak just for about 10 seconds on every bill, so that they will be out of here by about midday. Mr King was not around a decade ago. A decade ago there was a failed experiment in which Archives New Zealand was put under the Department of Internal Affairs. What goes around comes around; now we are doing it again. Relationships were so bad between the Department of Internal Affairs and Archives New Zealand that they went to court, 10 years ago. So what a waste of time and money this merger is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Minister could only come up with the justification that this great merger, all in the name of increased efficiency, better services for the public, better accountability, and great improvements in the quality of service provision from the so-called bureaucrats\u2014who are wonderful, respected professionals in their jobs\u2014will save only $165,000. Archives New Zealand and the National Library have always had an absolutely clean audit from the Audit Office\u2014no problems; nothing that needed to be tidied up. They do their job professionally as stand-alone entities, so why in the name of efficiency would one merge them into the Department of Internal Affairs, for the sake of saving the princely sum of $165,000, and risk that grievances will arise again in the future? The roles of the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian will be third-tier positions, and they will not even have face-to-face meetings on a weekly basis with the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. I think that is an absolute insult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIf Chris Finlayson, who does know about the functions of the National Library and Archives New Zealand and about the importance of the material that they preserve, had been a little more aware of what was being proposed by stealth by Tony Ryall, if he had been a bit more aware and read his Cabinet papers in time, he would have jumped up and said this was a foolish move. An absolutely flawed move like this took us to court a decade ago. As a lawyer, Minister Finlayson knows that. He knows about the risks if the public record is not kept transparent and people are not held accountable for it. Minister Finlayson knows about the risks, but he failed to challenge Nathan Guy and Tony Ryall, so this cute little merger, this cute little amalgamation, went through. Members can look at the resulting effect: 15 jobs are lost. Mr Ryall would say \u201COnly 15\u2014what\u2019s that? That\u2019s great. It\u2019s all in the name of efficiency.\u201D These are not just jobs. These are people who are held accountable for, and who know how to manage, the public record of both libraries, and who know how to look after the body of historical archival material held by the Alexander Turnbull Library. These libraries are not something that can be merged with the Department of Internal Affairs quite easily, even though National says the merger does not affect their roles because it has sorted those out in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think this situation is an absolute disgrace. The Chief Archivist and the National Librarian must have statutory independence, and their independence is limited if they become part of the Department of Internal Affairs. What happened a decade ago when this happened? It was logical: they struggled to find a voice. If they are put into the third-tier level of management in a huge department, a burgeoning, huge department, then how will they have a voice? How will they have their independence? How can the National Librarian and Chief Archivist go and meet their Minister? That will not happen. They will be swallowed up in the department, and will struggle to have a voice to advocate for the record that they manage. This is an absolutely stupid move. It is a flawed move. It has already caused great distress in the library and the archive sector of New Zealand. Those who work in the sector are not fuddy-duddy bureaucrats who feel threatened by the loss of a job; they are there to preserve the function of their job, and it has been shown that they have an excellent record. For the sake of $165,000 a year and the loss of 15 jobs, National thinks this is a great little cute move, but it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say the merger is not necessary at all. It will not generate better public services; it is driven purely by an ideological desire to reduce the number of Government agencies. This is flawed logic. The Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage failed to represent and advocate for Archives New Zealand and the National Library as being very important functions of a creative country, in a sector that has a great sense of history. The merger will fail, and I ask members to watch to see what will happen with the next audit report. We will argue against this merger in more depth when we get into the Committee stage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6dde0290c984877b52494bcd6771c05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6dde0290c984877b52494bcd6771c05\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker Barker. Kia ora, everybody. Ng\u0101 mihi nui a koutou. Kia ora. This is my first day back in Parliament after 3 weeks on parental leave. It is great to be here on a Saturday. Three weeks ago my wife gave birth to a healthy little baby, Zoe Elizabeth Hughes. I wonder what impact the State Sector Management Bill will have on the records and archives we are producing now in Parliament and around our communities. What access will she have when she is 18 and when she is 30? That is the key question we are asking today with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI was privileged to join the other members on the Education and Science Committee hearing the submissions. I heard one clear message from all of the submitters. There was a clear message that the merging, or the takeover, as it was described, of the National Library and Archives New Zealand will be bad. It will be bad for Archives New Zealand, it will be bad for the National Library, and it will be bad for Kiwis accessing those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI was fortunate enough to have a tour of Archives New Zealand with some of the staff. Boy, what a fantastic institution it is. I got to see maps of New Zealand from the 1950s with potential nuclear strikes. I got to see handwritten deeds of sale signed with moko. Truly, they are national taonga deserving of our utmost respect and utmost care, and the risk with this bill we are debating today under urgency on a Saturday is a lack of care, and a lack of due diligence and prudence. There is a lack of reasons why we are even addressing these issues today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI will briefly touch on some of the impacts of this bill, because there will be some, and touch on some of the reasons\u2014or slogans, as I put it\u2014given for why this bill has been introduced, and reasons why I am opposed to it. To begin with, the submitters to the select committee presented a great number of risks and reasons why we should not proceed with this bill. We heard that the National Library of New Zealand and Archives New Zealand have different roles: one is a library and one is responsible for archiving. We heard that their independence is at risk. We are putting the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian within a bureaucracy and down three or four tiers from their current position, which will reduce their impact and their access to Ministers. It will reduce their ability to have mana to proactively argue and to actually hold the chief executives of Government departments to account and tell them when they are doing a bad job when it comes to archiving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe heard that it will impact their budgets, although one good thing that I will give to the Government is that separate votes will continue. But we will see budget pressures faced and the risk is that the Department of Internal Affairs, one financial year, will say that we will just have fewer books that year. We also heard from submitters that this change is impacting on the morale of the staff. These guys do fantastic work day in, day out for the country\u2019s sake to protect these taonga, and having 15 staff at risk is damaging morale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe also heard on the select committee why we are doing this. The reasons that I heard and that I read in the Cabinet papers simply amount to slogans. We heard slogans: future-proofing, financial savings, efficiencies, and digitisation. These are simply slogans without argument or solid facts to back them up. Throughout the select committee process there were no facts and figures, and no robust arguments were presented. In that case, there remains simply slogans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the finance we are talking about maybe $165,000 a year. It seems crazy that we are doing this for literally $165,000 a year. It is as if the Government, looking for inspiration for its legislative programme for the year, went back and looked at the Shipley-Bolger playbook from the 1990s. When it comes to worker relations it has gone back to the Shipley-Bolger playbook, and when it comes to these wonderful Government departments, it has gone back to the Shipley-Bolger playbook. We have returned to the 1990s. In the select committee we once again heard that there were compelling reasons why these departments were separated by the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn summary, we oppose this bill for a considerable number of reasons. We have simply heard slogans as arguments for it, and it essentially amounts to an ideological solution in search of a problem. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca45a2aee9a04c56a7cc187e58d56867\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca45a2aee9a04c56a7cc187e58d56867\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT is happy to support the State Sector Management Bill, which amends a number of Acts in order to amalgamate several Government departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00229e2f44ac04f54b9a9e95c6551d74eecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e2f44ac04f54b9a9e95c6551d74eecd\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena. M\u014Drena t\u0101tou e hoa m\u0101 kua whakawh\u0101iti mai ki roto i te Whare nei i t\u0113nei ata. Ehara i te mea he nui ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. Kua rongo i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te mema m\u014D te K\u0101k\u0101riki. Me mihi ki a ia me tana ekenga hai p\u0101p\u0101 m\u014D t\u0113tahi p\u0113pi. Me mihi r\u0101 ki a koe e hoa, ka mutu, waiho t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero ki reira. Engari i tua atu o t\u0113r\u0101, kua rongo au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te mema r\u0101 i te mea kei te \u0101hua rite tonu ki a au i te mea, kua tae mai w\u0113tahi ki a au ki te whakatakoto i \u0113r\u0101 momo k\u014Drero ki mua i a m\u0101tou o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, ar\u0101, ng\u0101 uauatanga ka tau mai ki runga i ng\u0101 kaimahi o roto i te National Archives me te Whare Pukapuka o te Motu. Kua rongo ake, engari i roto i ng\u0101 whiriwhiringa k\u0101re au i te tino kite i te whakatinanatanga o \u0113r\u0101 momo whakaaro i te mea, he tino t\u0101onga e takoto nei ki roto i ng\u0101 whare nei. Hoi an\u014D, ka whakarongo ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e rere haere nei \u0101 k\u014D ake nei, \u0101 te w\u0101hanga Komiti, \u0101, k\u0101tahi ka whiriwhirihia hei taua w\u0101. N\u014D reira, kia ora t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Good morning. Good morning to us all, colleagues assembled in the House this morning. It is not as though I have a lot to talk about. I heard what the member from the Greens had to say, and I must congratulate him on becoming a father. Well done, colleague. We cannot let that go by without acknowledging it. But park that there. Furthermore, I note what that member said, because it is much like that with me, as well. Some have brought that sort of thing, about difficulties being placed upon National Archives and National Library of New Zealand staff, before us, the M\u0101ori Party. I have heard about it in the negotiations, but have never seen those kinds of thoughts implemented, because there are treasures of real significance stored in those buildings. However, I will listen to the contributions flying about here, and then later perhaps, during the Committee stage, make a decision at that point. Thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022bca762cfed3e4b788d1b774ea13ec6b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bca762cfed3e4b788d1b774ea13ec6b0\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the second reading of the State Sector Management Bill. This bill is a continuation of the Government\u2019s drive for efficiency and effectiveness across the State services sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ERather than use the Government\u2019s words to talk about one particular issue that the Opposition has raised, I thought I would give members the words of the Public Service Association national secretary, Brenda Pilott. She says: \u201CWe are happy to see that the bill retains the statutory roles of the National Librarian, Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library and the Chief Archivist,\u201D. Finishing with those words, I am proud to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022546f6a2a1dab4c33b91d9ee5681faa39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022546f6a2a1dab4c33b91d9ee5681faa39\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E The State Sector Management Bill is a drive, but it goes in no particular direction, it seems to me. It is a drive towards, basically, showing people that doing something is better than not doing something. But doing something for absolutely no real reason does not seem to be a particularly good use of our time here on a Saturday morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOne thing that brings us together as parliamentarians on a Saturday morning is the feeling that we could have done this better, and that the Leader of the House could have organised this a bit better so that instead of being here in Parliament on a Saturday morning, we might have actually been spending our time with our constituents. As we all know, in our electorates there are many things we could be doing this morning. We do not have very much time before Christmas comes along.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EFirstly I will touch on what has already been mentioned in terms of the Archives and the National Library. The Education and Science Committee sat through 31 submissions of evidence, and\u2014Louise Upston will know this as well\u2014every single one of them, without exception, opposed the bill. The submissions were some of the best I think I have ever heard while sitting on a select committee in my short career here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ESubmissions were made by people who had worked under the 1990s regime and had seen the mess that occurred as a result of putting the Archives, in particular, inside the Department of Internal Affairs. They pleaded for us to keep it separate. They showed us that in almost every other country in the world, best practice was to keep archives outside the Department of Internal Affairs. From there, it could serve as an independent watchdog and a repository of information that benefited the whole of New Zealand\u2014the whole of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EInstead, we are burying both the Archives and the National Library inside the Department of Internal Affairs, which will make the heads of both of those departments third-tier positions. That means that they will not, despite what we were told in the select committee, have access to the responsible Minister. It seems like the Minister would not necessarily be doing anything even if they did have access to the Minister, so perhaps that is a pointless point to bring up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis measure has been done under the auspices of making something more efficient and more effective. It saves about $160,000 a year. We could probably do an internal reshuffle and save more than that, if that were able to done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cc5c76d7194eb1a46ea04cc82995f8\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: One day in Parliament in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4ec692f55640a485936f7ea5f9d04b\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: We would probably save as much as that if we had a Leader of the House who actually organised himself. I have to say that 2 weeks ago we had made plans right through this weekend to get out in the electorate and do things before the Christmas break. Those plans seem to have been shot down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELet us move to the research and science provisions in the bill, which present less of a problem to this side of the House. In fact, I congratulate Minister Mapp on coming up with a good name: the Ministry of Science and Innovation [Interruption] That is true. I was reflecting on what would have happened if Wayne Mapp by some remarkable feat had won the 1981 Mt Roskill selection and had come in as the member for Mt Roskill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece19d84177940298b86aef1b876ef9d\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: As a Labour member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f6776b1d924de1a928240e4c1bfe0f\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: As a Labour member for Mount Roskill\u2014that is right. I was thinking about how he would have risen through the Labour Party as a result of being in Mt Roskill. It is an interesting thought; I did not spend too long thinking about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EDr Mapp came up with a great name: the Ministry of Science and Innovation. We may ask what is in a name. Well, the answer is not a whole lot. If we dig below the name, we see the same old, same old approach coming out yet again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will give members two examples. First of all, putting two departments together will not save any money for at least 7 years, according to the Auditor-General\u2019s report. That report supposes that no extra people have been taken on board as a result of new things that the new ministry comes up with. It will be 7 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe other thing that was interesting when the select committee looked at this bill was that I expected, perhaps in the preamble, something slightly more inspirational about what this bill is trying to do. It is bringing together two pieces of Government bureaucracy. The officials said that they had not had time to think about that, and that they had been too busy trying to merge the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science and Technology. In a sense, that says it all about this legislation. It starts off aspiring to be something that really tries to take us forward, but it does not. It falls at the first hurdle; it really does not move us forward any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will give the House a second example, which is in respect of appointing the head of this new ministry. From the very beginning, I have had no issues or problems with the person who was chosen for this job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd3c1e85384f4c2d946dc4ea493fbc32\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Was it Christine Rankin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db18fbe6eff40ecb9d94d5e6bcfb35e\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: No, in this case it was not Christine Rankin. But I ask members this: if we were going to start a brand new ministry that really looked to be inspirational and aspirational about what we want to do, as the Minister has spoken about in every speech he has come out with, what would we do? I will tell the House what I would do. I would advertise across the world and try to get the best person for the job, from perhaps the other side of the world, perhaps from Finland or Denmark, which the Minister keeps mentioning as the example of where we want to be in the world. Maybe we should go to Denmark and see whether we can attract anybody from Denmark to New Zealand who can show us what happened there. We could have looked at Sweden or Singapore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhat happened in this case? Again, this is no reflection on the person who was eventually appointed. What happened? We opened that recruitment process for 2\u00BD weeks. I know from talking to a lot of people around town that the recruitment agency did not have the resources to go further abroad and make an international search. There is absolutely no way that we can say with our hand on our heart that we have trawled the world for the best possible person and got the best possible person. If we had done that and the current head of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology had been selected, I would have said that it is fantastic to have a Kiwi, a New Zealander, who is able to do the job. But we have not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis is another example that permeates right through the Government of where we have sold ourselves short. We have lacked the vision, we have lacked the plan, and we have lacked the aspiration, even though this is one of the main areas where the Government wants to pick up New Zealand\u2019s economic performance. We have lacked the drive to drive this ministry forward to the place it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EHere we are on a Saturday morning looking at a bill that puts the Archives and the National Library back into the Department of Internal Affairs, despite the best advice from just about everybody who has ever worked in both of those areas. In the research, science and technology area we could have made a real difference and really lived up to the great name that the Minister has come up with, but instead we have fallen sadly short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc05e0eb5f5a445a828be829f4b371c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc05e0eb5f5a445a828be829f4b371c3\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to speak on the State Sector Management Bill, the purpose of which is to amalgamate a number of existing agencies to achieve gains in terms of financial efficiencies, effectiveness, and future viability of agencies. These amalgamations will improve services within existing baselines, reducing cost in the short to medium term and future-proofing the long-term delivery of Government services. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00223830d92b136c45d0a1148baed4028dde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223830d92b136c45d0a1148baed4028dde\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If ever there was an example of Government legislation that is a triumph of ideology over common sense, then the State Sector Management Bill is that legislation. We are sitting on a Saturday morning under urgency because apparently the most important thing that this Government has to do before Christmas is merge Archives New Zealand and the National Library. God forbid that we should go into 2011 without having merged Archives New Zealand and the National Library! I hate to think what that would mean for the economy of this country and the people of New Zealand. I think that shows the priorities of this Government. It has the people of Aotearoa New Zealand at heart!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a6d6d52bc0443bae32407687c0d651\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It was time for a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efcc99f5f55e40498776bc6c4bdb6d4c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: It was absolutely time for a change in the way we manage our National Library and our archives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe merger of Archives New Zealand and the National Library absolutely defies belief. It was only 10 years ago that we separated them out because of all the problems they were having when they were administered by the Department of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOn the subject of Archives New Zealand, interestingly enough I think there is quite a lot of correlation between the National Government\u2019s attempts to rewrite history and its desire to run down the role of Archives New Zealand. Archives New Zealand plays a key constitutional role in New Zealand. It ensures that the documents of Government are retained and are available for scrutiny by the people of New Zealand. Should we really be surprised that this National Government has shown no respect for the processes under the Official Information Act? When we put in our Official Information Act requests to the Government, the information comes back late. The Government refuses to release anything, but if it is forced to release anything, we get blank pages or words crossed out, because the Government does not want the people of New Zealand to know that the advice it has been getting from its officials shows that the path we are on is not good for our country. So I do not think we should be particularly surprised that the Government would like to undermine the role of Archives New Zealand, because that would make it a lot easier for John Key and his team to rewrite history, which they have tried to do many, many times already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis bill will result in the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian being nothing more than third-tier managers in the Department of Internal Affairs. Those roles require independence. One has to ask how the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian can remain independent when they are beholden to a chief executive above them and to managers above them, and are far more beholden to a Minister than ever before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ELet us ask ourselves what the mischief is that the Government is trying to solve. Members across the House have sat on select committees that both these entities have come before for their financial reviews. Both of them are very, very well run. They are very efficiently run. They get very good reports from the Audit Office and from select committees. So they are not organisations that are in trouble in any way. They are not organisations that are underperforming. The cost savings that the Government has been trumpeting are simply not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOne of the things Government Ministers have said is that if they bring these entities together, the big information and communication technology project to digitalise all of this information will be easier to do. Well, according to people who actually know about that digitisation, it is doomed to fail because of the complexity of this merger and the way that the new entities will be set up. In fact, that information and communication technology project is under threat from this merger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo why is the Government doing it, other than out of blind ideology\u2014blind ideology\u2014and a feeling that it hates Government departments and nameless, faceless bureaucrats, despite the fact that they are preserving our history for future generations of New Zealanders? The Government has no plan for our economy, so instead it will say: \u201CAren\u2019t we great? We fired a whole lot of people in the State sector. Aren\u2019t we doing a really good job? Look at us managing public funds properly.\u201D, even though there will be no savings from this merger, and even though it puts at risk very expensive projects that have been ongoing for a long time. More important, it undermines the very independence of these two constitutional roles, which this House should be protecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will follow on from my colleague David Shearer and his comments about the other part of this legislation, which is the combining of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology. Labour members do not oppose that. I do not think it will make any great change, to be perfectly honest. In fact, when Dr Mapp came to the select committee for his first appropriation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7d76b23b6e4afdb9a4e13428b27b61\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Was he awake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228362660a01aa470ebd006c953ce90b47\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, he was awake and he was enthusiastic about his new role\u2014he quite eloquently laid out why the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology were separate. Committee members remember talking about the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology. Dr Mapp very eloquently pointed out that the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology is the ministry that provides policy to the Government. He told us that it was Government-facing. Then he said that the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology was different because it was the funding arm for the area of science and research and development, so the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology faced out towards the science community. That, he explained, was why the two entities need to be separate: the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology served the Government, and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology served the science community, and those two roles were very, very different. He remembers saying that, because he is smiling now. So I wonder why, given how eloquently he professed at the select committee that the two entities needed to remain separate, all of a sudden we are combining them, for no apparent benefit. There will be no cost savings for at least 7 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI also note that this week the Minister of Housing announced exactly the opposite approach for the Housing New Zealand Corporation: the Government will take policy away from the operational arm of the Housing New Zealand Corporation because it needs to keep those two separate. So I am not sure why one thing works for the Housing New Zealand Corporation and the Department of Building and Housing, and something completely different works for the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, but, kei te pai, that is all right. We do not think it will do a whole lot of damage. It is really just shuffling the deck chairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt does not answer the more important questions in the area of science and research and development, which are why the Government slashed the funding the previous Labour Government had put in place, and why it removed the research and development tax credit, which was unanimously supported by the sector as a tool it needed to lift private-sector investment in research and development, and replaced it with a bureaucratic grants system. If Labour had put that in place, members opposite would have been all over us about how bureaucratic it was, how inefficient it was, and why we had not introduced a tax credit. But they could not accept that a tax credit was a good idea, and it was Labour\u2019s idea, when it came to research and development. Bill English has always had a funny thing about tax credits. He gets wound up about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d410631d6904707968b581088f5fd92\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: And scientists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdf8340662da4b79acc98e9704527200\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae5d246e35094c25a732fe938846348b\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s against science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec374c87d6254b86b0218359189184a6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s anti-science. The fact is the research and development tax credit was a good idea. It has been replaced by a very bureaucratic idea, which is far less efficient than Labour\u2019s was. The Minister for Crown research institutes keeps going on about how great this Government has been for science. I want to know whether he would say that to my friends whom I went through university with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d450170e9c174b9dace28db52884f892\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: There are too many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aecb8cff9507496b81f7e819d3d4d1e6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014that is right, there are far too many\u2014whom I studied science with, who have been laid off from Crown research institutes under this Government, which is apparently the great Government of science, because of funding cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMinister Tony Ryall is in charge of this legislation. Another thing he does not talk about is that a lot of the cuts in science funding have come through health cuts. A lot of scientific research is carried out under funding from the Ministry of Health. I know many people who have lost their jobs. They are highly qualified scientists. That is not to mention the science advisers that have also been fired and who have gone overseas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc6fd0c0bbd64fbf8ff37c252dfc5f64\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, in this Government even the science Minister will get laid off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8ab3c95aa64f47954eac290d1a84f6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Quite possibly\u2014who knows? This Government has not been good for science. Here we are merging the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology. That is fine. I do not think it will do an awful lot. It will not result in cost savings or better outcomes for science, so one has to wonder why we are doing it. I have taken that view from the Minister of Research, Science and Technology himself, who absolutely convinced me at the select committee in 2009 that this merger was not something the Government should be doing, that the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology carry out two very different roles. I took that view from the Hon Dr Wayne Mapp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI come back to the core part of this legislation, which is the absolute ridiculousness of merging Archives New Zealand and the National Library. Maybe we should not be surprised; this Government has shown absolutely no respect for libraries and librarians and the role they perform. It cut the school library service. People living in provincial New Zealand used to have access to someone at the National Library who could make sure that children growing up in the provinces got the same access to information as children growing up in the cities did. Well, that is gone. Guess what they were given? An 0800 number\u2014as if that is the same thing! Provincial schools were up in arms about that because they used the service regularly. It meant that children in rural areas got the same access to information as kids in the cities did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784183152cbe44ea9294eb9f9a899075\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: What a lot of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d2db673adc4d45b90759b928b8f6fc\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Anne Tolley to visit some schools in her electorate; they will tell her. But they are not allowed to, because when she visits a school the staff are told that they are not allowed to discuss education with her. They are not allowed to discuss education. Because she is their local MP, they can talk about local issues only\u2014although I note that she has started to visit schools now that we are coming into election year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00229b59b29607d44a788b38bd487bad56c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b59b29607d44a788b38bd487bad56c0\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the State Sector Management Bill. This bill amalgamates a number of existing agencies. What do we get from that? We achieve gains in terms of financial and operational efficiencies. It is about improving effectiveness through synergies within those departments. But the best thing this bill does is guarantee the future viability of these agencies. We have inherited a financial mess from the last Labour Government. The amalgamations will improve services within existing baselines and will reduce those costs in the short to medium term. On that basis I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223606b5ced8854cb0b6ffa81ed85814b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Education and Science Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 39; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000124\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 66, Noes 45.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cd3afcfb1f24e098e40f95c123995cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the State Sector Management Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 39; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000125\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 66, Noes 45.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022191b98f7635c4e37b6a7d94e208c792b\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002227e1163244a64b138c037b83ac9baed3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e1163244a64b138c037b83ac9baed3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the State Sector Management Bill that it have the power to consider, and if it thinks fit, to adopt the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 196. In speaking to this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212119b69ebb7413cabad6376ca73078e\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to be clear. Has there been an agreement to allow the member to speak, and is what he has requested within the scope of the bill? If it is within the scope of the bill, then it would be considered as part of the Committee stage. If it is outside the scope of the bill, then there is no reason to allow this member to have a speech. I ask that you make a ruling on this matter immediately, and that we take some time to understand what is being proposed here. As a speaker, he may\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7606722c2574c55b5a5ff56f084e629\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order will be heard in silence. There is a constant barrage across the House, and this is quite a technical point. I want Chris Tremain to continue with his point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a7a0444ed9d4bfca44df2ba107e6831\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I am just asking that you have some time to consider what is being proposed in the debate that the Hon Trevor Mallard is putting on to the floor of the House. There have been previous instances in the last month or two where this tactic has been tried, and it has, I would add, been successful at that point in time for the Opposition. But with the benefit of hindsight, it should have never been allowed. If the presiding officer had been given the opportunity to consider what was being proposed, it would have been ruled out of order at that time, and the debate would not have been allowed to proceed. So I ask, Mr Assistant Speaker Barker, that you consider whether what is being proposed is within the scope of the bill. If it is, it will be dealt with in the Committee stage. If it is outside the scope of bill, then I ask that it be ruled out of order immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1989325f0aa4751bd5241846e3f68ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1989325f0aa4751bd5241846e3f68ee\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d72bfafbbfc14d45ab9dc01ef3c85272\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb382ac412a04786a91c8f4cfacab22d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I am entitled to make a ruling. It is the Speaker\u2019s prerogative. I do not need any particular assistance on this matter, thank you. Fortunately we have had some time to think about this matter in advance. The point of Mr Mallard\u2019s instruction is that it proposes to set an amendment that seeks to amend the bill to allow for amendment to the functions of the Tertiary Education Commission, as set out in the Education Act 1989, by removing the commission\u2019s role as a policy adviser to the Minister for Tertiary Education. Mr Mallard\u2019s instruction proposes an amendment that is foreign to the bill, and if it is foreign to the bill, it is not a proper instruction. It is therefore out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002261cfc077eb864fbdab494989cfd2fa2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261cfc077eb864fbdab494989cfd2fa2d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There was considerable consultation on this particular approach, and the advice I received is that any member can move an instruction to include something in a bill. It is regularly done by Ministers for matters that are outside the scope of the bill as a method of including them in the bill. That is the point of the instruction: if something is already part of the bill, and it can be considered by the Committee without an instruction, there would be no place for instructions whatsoever. Mr Assistant Speaker Barker, you know that instructions are regularly used in order to widen the scope of the bill and to include in a bill matters that are related but out of scope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EClearly, this is a related matter. It is a State sector reorganisation matter. It is actually a transfer of policy function between two State agencies, so it is a State sector reorganisation matter. The House, of course, can vote against it now, or the House could deal with it later. In fact, the logical thing for the Government would probably be to save a lot of time and deal with it now, because it will deal with it later in the education area. It is a photocopy of Anne Tolley\u2019s amendment. The Government supports it completely, and the Government could save a lot of time by doing it in the right place rather than in the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), which is the wrong place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI go back to the original point. Can you explain, Mr Assistant Speaker Barker, given your ruling, what possible area could be the subject of an instruction? The history of the House has been that instructions from the House to the Committee to consider matters are used for things that would otherwise be outside the scope of the bill. The right to do that has been both the Government\u2019s and the Opposition\u2019s. My anxiety with your ruling\u2014because I want to be on the other side of the House in the not too distant future\u2014is that you will be removing the right of anyone to move an instruction to extend the scope of a bill in order to include in it matters that would otherwise be out or order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002283638a69d9fd472688daadd4f4f1f788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283638a69d9fd472688daadd4f4f1f788\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I just say to the member that matters that come before the House have to conform to the Standing Orders and the rules of this House. One cannot amend those by way of an instruction to the Committee by motion. The only method members have to do that is by seeking leave. I have had cases of bills amended by leave, as other presiding officers have. There has to be unanimity; it is not a majority decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s amendment is outside of the scope of the bill. It is foreign to the bill, and it cannot be done by a motion. I have ruled it out of order. The member has asked what possible options members would have in the future. Members will have in the future exactly the same options they have today. They may seek leave, and it must be a majority decision. The matter is closed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022437ee157e8444feda07de0e1bb50e292\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022437ee157e8444feda07de0e1bb50e292\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think it is a slight extension of the previous point of order. It goes to the question of the history of the moving, at this stage of the debate, of motions that have certainly not been by leave that have extended the scope of the bill. That has happened on dozens of occasions since I have been a member of Parliament. Generally it is within the field of the bill, but the extension is for something that would not have otherwise been allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIf you are ruling in this way, I think you are setting a very dangerous precedent whereby Governments will not be able to extend the scope of bills. I can remember during the whole State sector reorganisation when much more major things came in at this late stage of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022702155217ba94b1ab12df861eb5f7232\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022702155217ba94b1ab12df861eb5f7232\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I will clarify it for the member one further time. There is a difference between extending the scope of the bill by resolution and something that is foreign to the bill. I am saying that this amendment is not within the scope; the amendment the member has moved is foreign to the bill. It is quite outside of the bill. In that particular case, the only method the member has available is to make the amendment by leave. The member is failing to make that distinction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI make the point to the member again, if he cares to listen, that the member can move an instruction to the Committee on an amendment when it is consistent with the bill or associated with the bill, but if it is one step removed and it is foreign to the bill then the member cannot do it by a motion. In that particular case, the member can do it only by leave. I have ruled the member\u2019s amendment out, and that is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002203159e92697c493eb8df4798df7231b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203159e92697c493eb8df4798df7231b9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The point of order goes right to the core of your ruling, which is whether this instruction is foreign. This is a State sector restructuring bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba56688aee5f4323bfe508ce906edf08\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: My ruling on that instruction is that it is foreign to the bill. It is clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00225490b37706a04be7b1dd432b3e8218f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225490b37706a04be7b1dd432b3e8218f5\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I accept your ruling that the Supplementary Order Paper that my colleague was promoting was foreign to the bill. I wonder whether you have had a chance to reflect on Speaker\u2019s ruling 79/3. It is quite an ancient Speaker\u2019s ruling, from my perspective, as it goes back to 1931. It sets out the conditions in which an instruction that may be foreign or contradictory can be referred to the Committee, or in which the House can confer a power on the Committee that it does not ordinarily possess, if that is the will of the House. I think 79/3 brings it into the competency of what the member Trevor Mallard was attempting to move. I wonder whether on that scale\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00222274f5d6a346408fb22532084159b401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222274f5d6a346408fb22532084159b401\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I respond to the member and say that if the member reads 79/3, he will see it is entirely consistent with what I have said. For the member\u2019s assistance: \u201CIt is competent for a member to move an instruction the subject-matter of which is neither \u2018irrelevant nor foreign nor contradictory to the decision of the House taken on the introduction and second reading of the bill,\u2019\u201D. I have said that the member\u2019s amendment is foreign to the bill. I have ruled absolutely in accordance with the Speaker\u2019s ruling from 1931. I thank the member for refreshing my memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a193fa5fe0cf425eafaec8e576866b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a193fa5fe0cf425eafaec8e576866b53\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the State Sector Management Bill that it have the power to consider and, if it thinks fit, to adopt the typescript amendment to clause 25.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022019de8c2e7a14ec2809ed2094f653323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019de8c2e7a14ec2809ed2094f653323\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Grant Robertson that his instruction to the Committee is out of order because it seeks to give the Committee the power to do something it already has the power to do. The Committee has that power; it does not need it again. This House does not need belts and braces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbe2f458a36b42c884df766485fd4dc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbe2f458a36b42c884df766485fd4dc8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the State Sector Management Bill that it have the power to consider the amendments set out in the typescript amendment in the name of my colleague Grant Robertson to insert new clause 28A. This is a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00224f9281144ec34026b47dcefb2488a2a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f9281144ec34026b47dcefb2488a2a5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: We will not have a speech on that motion. I say to the member that the member\u2019s motion fails for exactly the same reason that I failed Mr Robertson\u2019s. If an amendment is already on the Table and the Committee has the power to consider it, it is within scope and it does not need an instruction to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223d2d46a4d95c4d0dafbd3ff45a36c669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d2d46a4d95c4d0dafbd3ff45a36c669\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the State Sector Management Bill that it have the power to consider an amendment from Grant Robertson that is yet to be tabled in this House and is relevant to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa6029b79114125afa5765225d77f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa6029b79114125afa5765225d77f51\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that we will not have motions that anticipate possible amendments. The Committee of the whole House has that power, of itself, and the Committee, having the power to consider any fine amendment moved by Grant Robertson, will decide on its own whether it agrees with it. It does not need an instruction to the Committee to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00224be765117ced4bcc84ab53586958e1dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224be765117ced4bcc84ab53586958e1dc\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Having listened to the three points of order from Trevor Mallard, all of which have been ruled out for lack of compliance with the Standing Orders; having listened to the shadow Leader of the House raise a point of order that, in fact, confirmed your ruling, and did not provide any evidence for it to be revisited; and having listened to the member for Wellington Central try the same tactic, I suggest to you that we are now at the point where the Opposition is trifling with your ruling. On two occasions you have declared the matter closed, and I suggest that we move on with the business at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220175c473aa224473b0426121566a6d13\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257d61c8374d244b1a07c6594dc03aa34\u0022\u003EPart 1  Provisions relating to research, science, and technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022e54a78e3da7e4a87871711adb0717686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e54a78e3da7e4a87871711adb0717686\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Some of the early provisions of the State Sector Management Bill cut to the heart of what the bill is really about in terms of research, science, and technology issues. First, I want to come to the aspect of the definitions contained in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EA number of submitters made some comment on that matter\u2014in particular, on clauses 7(1) and 7(2). One or two of the submitters wanted to try to put into the bill, and to have much more fleshed out, the definitions of what constitutes science, research, technological development, innovation, and benefit to New Zealand. They felt that the bill as it stood at that point did not go into that sufficiently. They wanted to see those terms expressed more fully, explained and defined more fully, in the legislation, and I think there was some sympathy for that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn particular, the submitters cut to the definitions that are applied by the OECD in terms of science, research, and technology. Those definitions, which are widely accepted as being the authority on research and development, are the Frascati definitions. They define basic research as \u201Cexperimental or theoretical work undertaken primarily to acquire new knowledge of the underlying foundation of phenomena and observable facts, without any particular application or use in view.\u201D In those terms, basic research is what one would call the foundation work that we do in science. Applied research\u2014and I quote from the Frascati definitions again\u2014\u201Cis also original investigation undertaken in order to acquire new knowledge. It is, however, directed primarily towards a specific practical aim or objective.\u201D We can see the difference between the two definitions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOur science in New Zealand obviously straddles both of those areas. We have fundamental research taking place, particularly in our universities. The work of the Crown research institutes tends to be more of the applied nature, although I have to say that even in those institutes a significant amount of good science is happening, particularly in the basic earth sciences. But I think the feeling was that those definitions, in a sense, set the bill up, so there was no problem in understanding what was being referred to in clauses 7(1) and (2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe applied and the more experimental research is somewhat different from those two areas. Again, I will quote from the Frascati definitions: \u201CExperimental development is systematic work, drawing on existing knowledge gained from research and/or practical experience, which is directed to producing new materials, products or devices, to installing new processes, systems and services, or to improving substantially those already produced or installed.\u201D We can think of many, many examples of that, one of which is the development of the red kiwifruit. That is really a development of something that currently exists, but the new knowledge and new science that was applied to kiwifruit enabled a new product to come about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn many ways, that example cuts to the heart of what this bill looks to do, which is to look for innovation in terms of our science, research, and technology. The bill tries to build on that aspect of what we do in our science and research institutions. That is where we get the greatest amount of economic benefit; the economic benefit comes from improving what already exists. There is nothing wrong with that. Obviously, a lot of things come out of blue-sky science, and we do some extremely good blue-sky research in our science institutions. But not much of it\u2014or very little of it\u2014actually goes on to produce real economic benefit. The core of the economic benefit comes from the area covered by the Frascati definition that I just read out, which applies to experimental development that builds on and develops processes and aspects of our science system that are already in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe discussed at some length in the Education and Science Committee whether it would be worth putting the Frascati definitions in the bill. I think we came to the basic conclusion that with regard to the use of the phrase \u201CRS\u0026amp;T\u201D in clauses 7(2)(e) and (f), although the Frascati definitions are good and comprehensive, they are really already embodied inside that definition. They are embodied in the bill already. It is well known what they mean and they are well accepted throughout New Zealand, so we thought it was probably unnecessary to draw that definition out any further. However, we agreed to amend the phrase \u201CRS\u0026amp;T\u2019 used in clauses 7(2)(e) and (f) to read \u201Cresearch, science, or technology,\u201D but we did not change the definition of \u201CRS\u0026amp;T funding\u201D in clause 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI come to the second issue raised by submitters on this part of this bill, which was the phrase \u201Cthe benefit of New Zealand\u201D in clause 7(1). Again, it was felt by some submitters that we should have that specifically brought into the bill and stated up front. The committee did not discuss that in great depth, but we felt that the phrase \u201Cthe benefit of New Zealand\u201D is probably intended to have its ordinary, natural meaning. In fact, most of us would believe that it is pretty self-explanatory, and that to expand it and try to define it would do the opposite to what the submitters wanted, which was to make that definition clear. If we had defined it, that might have made it much more restrictive in terms of the future interpretation of the legislation. So we left that particular part of the definition, \u201Cthe benefit of New Zealand\u201D, in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I think this particular issue of the definitions is really important, as we are moving towards a bill that, in a sense, develops a new title of research and innovation, and that was well discussed. I think we have now started off this new legislation with a full understanding of exactly what the various definitions mean. We are clear about that, and it is based in the commentary on the bill. I will leave it at that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed2a7843322f4f81955f0dc3fb8210cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed2a7843322f4f81955f0dc3fb8210cf\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the State Sector Management Bill is part of a new strategic approach that the Government is taking in the area of science and innovation, whereby we are bringing together the two agencies that provided advice to Ministers in this area. We are bringing a much greater focus on the delivery of science and its outcomes to the New Zealand store of knowledge, which will improve our ability to commercialise any ideas and products therefrom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe bill brings together the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology into the Ministry of Science and Innovation. The Ministry of Science and Innovation will have separate boards, which have been given statutory powers and responsibility for the granting of various innovation funds to people involved in the science sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Research, Science and Technology, the Hon Dr Wayne Mapp, has often made the point that he has always met with both the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology every time he has considered these issues. That indicates that in terms of the Minister\u2019s dealings with the department, we will have an improved relationship. But, more important, I think that those involved in research, science, and technology innovation in New Zealand will see an improved responsiveness from the centre and a much greater focus on the shared priorities that we have across the science and innovation sector. I am sure that later on, in response to questions, we will be able to give them some more detail on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8d4ca3794314775a782fa824f414449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8d4ca3794314775a782fa824f414449\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What a load of twaddle! I am sorry, but nothing in the State Sector Management Bill will achieve all the grandiose stuff we just heard about. I am not sure, but apparently the Minister of State Services has had great conversations with the Hon Dr Wayne Mapp about how he would have great discussions with the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science and Technology. Well, the only discussion I have had with Dr Mapp on this matter was when he told a select committee that the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science and Technology should not be combined. That is the only thing I have heard Dr Mapp talk about when it comes to the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science and Technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Minister of State Services says we should have a strategic approach. How is this merger a strategic approach to assisting research, science, and technology in New Zealand? There is nothing strategic about a Minister who less than 18 months ago said this merger should not happen, suddenly deciding that because the Government needed to be seen to be doing something, it should happen. The Minister also said this merger would help with the delivery of science and science outcomes. I see that the Minister of Research, Science and Technology is now in the chair, and I would like to know which exact clauses will suddenly help the commercialisation of science in New Zealand. What really worries me about that contribution is that nothing in this bill will do that. Labour will not vote against Part 1, not because we think it will be great but because we do not think it will necessarily do any damage. But if the Government seriously believes that there will be a step change in science in New Zealand from combining the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science and Technology, then we are really in trouble when it comes to innovation. It simply will not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI circled under clause 4, which is the interpretation clause: \u201C \u2018Minister\u2019 means the Minister of the Crown who, under the authority of any warrant or with the authority of the Prime Minister, is for the time being responsible for the administration of this Part\u201D. I would like to remove the word \u201CMinister\u201D and replace it with \u201CPaul Hutchison\u201D, because he is a National member who understands the science sector. He would never have stood up and given a contribution like the one given by the Minister of State Services. He claimed that this bill will result in a strategic approach to research and science in New Zealand, and commercialisation, and all these grandiose things. Paul Hutchison would never have said that, because he knows that what the sector needs is more funding. That is why we should remove the word \u201CMinister\u201D and replace it with \u201CPaul Hutchison\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will talk about Subpart 1, \u201CAllocation of funding\u201D, which is in Part 1. It outlines the purposes for which this research, science, and technology funding may be allocated. There a number of very worthy causes here. Clause 7(2)(a) states that the activities should be \u201Clikely to increase knowledge or understanding of the physical, biological, or social environment;\u201D. As we know, we are in a brave new world now. The Royal Society of New Zealand is bringing the humanities into its organisation, so it is appropriate that under this part of the bill we recognise the research that goes on in the social sector. As we go to clause 7(2)(b), we see that a funded activity \u201Cis likely to contribute to New Zealand\u2019s economic growth;\u201D. Absolutely, but there should be recognition of the fact that just saying that will not make it happen. I come back to the fact that all the ideas listed in clause 7(2) are worthy ideas, but they will not result in anything if the Government keeps slashing funding and support, and if scientists in New Zealand keep on being fired. That does not contribute to the economic growth of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThen we see in clause 7(2)(c) that a funded activity \u201Cis likely to develop, maintain, or increase skills or scientific or technological expertise that is of particular importance to New Zealand;\u201D. We cannot argue with that, except to say again that just saying it does not make it so. We would like to see the Minister in the chair take a call to outline how the decisions that his Government has made to cut back on the funding that the previous Government put in place will help bring about the activity described in clause 7(2)(c) into being. From where we sit, and from the discussions we are having around the country with people in the sector, things are going in the opposite direction. Clause 7(2)(c) states \u201Cincrease skills or scientific or technological expertise\u201D. Increasing skills in science is a core part of what the sector needs, yet science advisers in schools are being fired. How can this measure increase science skills in New Zealand if we have no science advisers, which means that science is undervalued at primary school? That will feed all the way through the system, and we are very, very concerned about that. Those advisers have gone now. They are highly talented, highly skilled. They have all been snapped up by other countries, which are very happy to have them, and those advisers are very happy to be in countries with Governments that support science, unlike in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI think clause 7(2)(d) is very telling. It states that the activities referred to are \u201Cunlikely to be funded, or adequately funded, from non-governmental sources;\u201D. Why do we have to have that? Because New Zealand has one of the lowest private sector spends on research, science, and technology. Acknowledging here that there is not adequate funding in this area raises the question as to why the National Government got rid of Labour\u2019s research and development tax credit. Why did it get rid of Labour\u2019s research and development tax credit to the point where it now even has to admit in legislation that we cannot get funding from non-governmental sources? The provision refers to activities \u201Cunlikely to be funded, or adequately funded, from non-governmental sources;\u201D. Why does the Minister in chair not explain why he cut one of the single biggest factors that would have resulted in more non-governmental funding of science in New Zealand? Everyone was telling him that. Prior to the last election, we found out that groups from all over the country were flying around trying to catch up with Bill English, who was then the Opposition spokesman on finance, to tell him to please not get rid of the research and development tax credit, because more non-governmental funding for science was needed. Yet this Government decided, based on who knows what reason it has for doing anything in this area, that it would get rid of it. Well, Australia did that, and do members know what? Australia had to bring it back because its funding had fallen down so far and it had been such a failure, yet this Government failed to take that lesson on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe come now to clause 8, which is under the heading \u201CCriteria for assessing RS\u0026amp;T funding\u201D. It lays out criteria that the Minister is to set, and that the boards the Government is setting up will need to adhere to when deciding who gets this particular funding. Clause 8(1) states: \u201CThe Minister must from time to time, by notice given to each board and published in the Gazette, set criteria for the assessment of proposals for specified RS\u0026amp;T funding.\u201D That is quite a lot of power for the Minister. We get a bit nervous about a whole lot of power in an area of such technical expertise being placed with a Minister who, from time to time, may be someone who does not know a lot about research, science, and technology and does not have a background in it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a48d3db5fdb48599e0d34517054a68a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0eaf819257423084622d0077a8176b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Power assumes I am talking about the Minister in the chair, but I said \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D. That was a very telling Freudian slip, I say to Mr Power, but I was not actually talking about his colleague. Although I note that when Dr Mapp took over the portfolio, he kept telling everyone he went to meet that he did not want the portfolio and was as surprised as anyone to get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7947ef2193c4b45a8f3325fcb28a81a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285cc27117dc84c7b86772f4f36b2a817\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Mapp that he did. I think Dr Mapp was trying to lower expectations, but it had a bit of a negative effect in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EFrom time to time we may have a Minister who does not have a lot of expertise in this area, yet clause 8(1) provides that Minister with an extraordinary amount of power to decide where this funding goes and to set criteria. As someone with a science background, one thing I like to point out to colleagues\u2014and I think David Carter has also pointed it out\u2014is that the person who invented the motorcar said that if people had asked what politicians wanted and businesses wanted, they would have been told they wanted faster horses. That is very telling. Sometimes Ministers do not know where science funding will go or what the next big thing will be. We could look at a whole lot of other things: penicillin was discovered by mistake; when the electron was discovered everyone said what a useless piece of information it was, even though it was kind of interesting, and now our entire world is run by electronics. Yet this clause puts the power to direct the direction of funding of science in the hands of one person, and I wonder whether that is the most sensible thing to do. It seems to me that it is a move away from the funding of fundamental science, which is where we tell people to go out and find new discoveries\u2014the big things that actually create a lot of wealth. They are the kinds of things that are funded in the United States and more and more are being funded in places like Australia, where people understand the importance of fundamental science. [Interruption] The Minister is chipping away at me, but he could get to his feet and take a call, which I would very much appreciate. It seems like a lot of power is being given to one Minister to direct which areas of science will be funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI note that funding cannot be given to particular people. That is a very important safeguard in the law, and I absolutely agree with it. But there are areas of science where not many people work, so one could direct funding towards a particular area of science, and it would go to a particular person who one knows is the key person working in that area. So there is a little bit of undermining of that, perhaps. I know that my colleague Chris Hipkins is particularly concerned about this issue, so I will not steal his thunder in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut I would like the Minister in the chair to take a call, and can I say how pleased I am that the Minister of Research, Science and Technology is in the chair for this particular part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225458e04d7cb241308e26a9bfb297c30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225458e04d7cb241308e26a9bfb297c30e\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Moana Mackey alluded\u2014it was a very good call\u2014I wish to talk about the purpose of the bill as stated in Part 1. The Minister of Research, Science and Technology is being given the power to establish boards to make independent funding decisions, and I stress the word \u201Cindependent\u201D. I will quiz the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Research, Science and Technology. I hope that he will give me some responses to the questions I am about to raise, about how some of the powers vested in this bill will aid that independence in the decision-making criteria. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EClause 8(1) states: \u201CThe Minister must from time to time, by notice given to each board and published in the Gazette, set criteria for the assessment of proposals for specified RS\u0026amp;T funding.\u201D But clause 8(3) prevents the Minister from directing funding decisions toward particular people, so the Minister could not determine that a particular person or project would be funded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EHowever, I would like to know how the Government will ensure that the powers given in clause 8(1), and also in clause 10(3), which specifies: \u201CThe Minister may specify that a board is to make funding decisions on proposals for specified RS\u0026amp;T funding in relation to 1 or more areas of research, science, or technology, or related activities,\u201D will not be used in such a way that funding is directed to specific projects or people. In the research, science, and technology community in New Zealand there will probably be only one or two people or entities working in a particular area in some cases. It seems that the Minister is being given, through the bill, the power to direct funding into quite specific projects. I would like some comment from the Minister on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EPerhaps, as a useful way of doing that, he could comment on this: one of the things the bill does is require the Minister to establish one or more boards, but I do not think we have heard how the Government envisages implementing this proposal. I would like to know how many boards, for example, the Government envisages establishing under this bill. The Minister is indicating two boards. I would be interested to hear what areas they will be working in and what the scope of those two boards will be. It could well be that the concern I had about funding being directed into specific areas will be alleviated by the way those boards are to be composed and the remit that they will be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EUnder the purposes for which research, science, and technology funding may be allocated, I guess I welcomed the order of priority given in the ordering of the activities referred to, in the sense that the first priority, set out in clause 7(2)(a), is to increase knowledge or understanding of the physical, biological, and social environment. As my colleague Moana Mackey said, we do not always know where scientific discovery will land up. It could well be that some of the major advances in science and technology in the future come from pursuits and endeavours in a research area that at the moment we do not necessarily see much value in. If we were to place the priorities set out in paragraph 7(2)(b) ahead of the priorities set out in subclause 7(2)(a)\u2014subclause 7(2)(b) refers to contributing to New Zealand\u2019s economic growth\u2014we might well miss out on some absolutely fantastic opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that we have about all funding for research, science, and technology\u2014and when I say \u201Cwe\u201D, I mean generally as a country, as opposed to specific parties or politicians\u2014is that funding is being too narrowly focused on stuff with an economic impact, and not on the wider value of science. If we want to really promote scientific discovery and research new and exciting areas that do not necessarily let us know where the research will lead to, it will require a much more holistic approach than simply what is in the bill. The bill is pretty narrowly focused and, as Moana Mackey commented, it will not really change an awful lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe need to look at where science takes place, starting at schools. We are struggling to get kids coming out of schools who are interested in pursuing careers in science. [Interruption] There will be even fewer under national standards, because science is not given a particularly high priority under the Government\u2019s national standards policy. Actually, that is where it starts. It starts with getting more kids who are leaving school, wanting to pursue careers in science. If we are not doing that, and the Government has taken science advisers out of schools, then a lot of the rest of this debate will be immaterial. Also, I guess we have to look at the scientific research and endeavours that are undertaken in universities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022de35b58ccd1343d4a1f25c0ac366d667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de35b58ccd1343d4a1f25c0ac366d667\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Before I get into clauses 7, 8, and 9\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5165a0673954414a60aff96eb3760bf\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Wishful thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c07b0b72e6c94463aedc4641c89ae013\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! I know Louise Upston will be taking a call, because she followed this bill very closely in the Education and Science Committee. I am sure that we will hear from her. Rather than chipping across the Chamber, she will get up and take a call because she believes in the importance of science, Archives New Zealand, and the National Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will comment briefly on Minister Ryall\u2019s intervention earlier about the importance of having the strategic approach and improved responsiveness that we would see as a result of what is covered in Part 1. It is difficult to take that too seriously, because I suspect that the improved responsiveness we will see is that the new Ministry of Science and Innovation will be quicker to say no; that will be the improvement in the responsiveness. If the Government is not prepared to commit resources to science, research, technology, and innovation, then all of this shuffling of deckchairs means nothing. I think it is important to say at the outset that members on this side of the Chamber are strongly supportive of science funding. We were very alarmed to see the moves that this Government made in its early days, and we would like to see a greater commitment beyond simply structural changes, which, as my colleague David Shearer said, do no harm as such, but do not exactly lead us anywhere in a particularly positive direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMy colleague Chris Hipkins made some points about clause 7. Some submitters to the select committee expressed concerns about the way in which clause 7 constructs a hierarchy of criteria that will be assessed when making decisions about research, science, and technology funding. In particular, concern was raised about the question of contestability. I know that Minister Ryall, Paul Hutchison, and other National members who have had a bit of involvement in the sector know that one of the really difficult balances in research, science, and technology is the balance between stable funding and contestability. It truly is one of the enormous challenges that faces any Government in trying to work out how to ensure that we have that kind of blue-sky thinking that Chris Hipkins talked about, or indeed how we avoid the \u201Cfaster horse\u201D phenomenon that Moana Mackey mentioned. How do we make sure that the new and innovative idea is taken up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe concern was raised in the select committee that the way in which clause 7(2) is laid out does not give sufficient emphasis to contestability. The officials made a good argument to the select committee that the merging of the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology bring together a number of different types of funding, and that the foundation tended to have a fairly rigorously contestable process and the ministry has perhaps a number of other different processes that it is working on, and therefore we did not need to take up the idea of the submitter who said that the contestability provisions of the Foundation for Research, Science, and Technology Act should find their way into this Act. That is an interesting point, and it is one that the Minister may choose to comment on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we read through clause 7(2), or the whole of clause 7 for that matter, it is true to say that it does not have that clear statement around the question of contestability. I think it is important that we have that balance of stable funding. In particular, we know that the Crown research institutes talk a lot about the importance of stable funding and contestable funding\u2014contestable funding that highlights the possibilities of cooperation between different actors in the science sector. I think we can certainly support clause 7 as it stands now, but the Minister may choose to comment on how this definition and the purposes will deal with the question of balance between stable funding and contestable funding. I think that lies at the heart of getting our science system right. We have to have the contestability element to generate those new ideas. We have to have the funds to support those new ideas. From time to time, when funding for the Marsden Fund is announced and there are some quite different, new, and unique funding elements\u2014sometimes a research element is undertaken by the spouse of a former Prime Minister, for instance, or somebody like that\u2014it draws attention from the media. But, actually, that blue-sky research sometimes is the thing that gives us the spark to generate both economic wealth and social and environmental benefits. I think clause 7(2) is interesting, and I would like to hear from the Minister on it, even though the select committee itself resolved to accept the officials\u2019 advice in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022efbb981ec1bb4fcaa4dde1a0cc0bcddc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efbb981ec1bb4fcaa4dde1a0cc0bcddc\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP (Minister of Research, Science and Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I should take a call in response to a number of the questions asked. I found it interesting when I listened to the various Labour members from whom we have heard so far. I sometimes think Labour members live in a parallel universe. The sense I am getting from the science sector is that there is a great deal of optimism at the moment, and I do not mean just the stuff said directly to me but also what has been said indirectly, through the Chief Science Adviser to the Prime Minister, Peter Gluckman, and many others. The sector sees that the changes the Government has made\u2014which are not just legislative but also broader in the Crown Research Institute Taskforce and the increases in funding to the Marsden Fund and the Health Research Council\u2014have been significant. Although Mr Shearer tended to dismiss these changes as being a minor consequence, as indeed did Moana Mackey, they are, in fact, part and parcel of a broader setting that we are changing here. In a sense we could say that this legislation is effectively enabling legislation. Although we may not see the words in here in a strategic setting, effectively, that is what is then able to be undertaken. That was missed in the previous division of the ministry and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI note that Moana Mackey is inclined to keep repeating the untruth\u2014because she knows it to be untrue\u2014that I did not want to be in charge of the ministry. She knows it is untrue, because she knows that I actually said I was not expecting the portfolio. But I am very pleased to have got it. The reason I am pleased to have it is that I had spent a lot of time in Opposition in a working group on the North Shore, which included people like Professor Raine and a number of other leading science people. We were thinking about the role of innovation in New Zealand, and we wrote a series of papers on it as a part of the work that one does while in Opposition. When Dr Hutchison\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2120b7d24914cbc8cd35947555b25c0\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Did he ask the Prime Minister if he could be Minister of this portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e41815e75e42149e079e7988a13364\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: He knew I was interested, because I had been writing papers on innovation for the party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn answer to some specific questions that Mr Hipkins raised on the issue of boards, I say there will be two boards: one will be a science board, and one will be an innovation board. The name\u2014and I think Mr Shearer correctly recognised why the name was chosen\u2014is intended to show an end-to-end process connecting fundamental science right through to commercialisation. As a consequence, we need two boards. A science board will fund more of what one might call blue-sky research and will consist mostly of New Zealand\u2019s leading scientists, as we would reasonably expect. The other board is the innovation board, which will be mostly focused towards the business end of funding: the Technology New Zealand funding and the $50 million there, the vouchers worth $20 million over 4 years\u2014they are hugely oversubscribed; there is a good lesson for the future\u2014and the recently announced technology development grants, which are worth about $190 million over 4 years. The grants were also hugely well-received. I might also add that they were oversubscribed, and they were superior to Labour\u2019s tax credit scheme, which was aimed at lawyers. The tax credit scheme went through the Inland Revenue Department system and was disconnected from the most innovative businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know that a number of members have made reference to the TIN100 publication, which is produced by the Technology Investment Network. That sets out New Zealand\u2019s leading technological companies. They are the ones, by and large, that have benefited from the technology development grant. A rigorous process was undertaken to work out which firms had the highest levels of research and development capability, and they are getting the grants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277f30dabd78142a5999521ee352369ee\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Which bureaucrat did that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169d812e5d4748509200273e6438203c\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: It was an independent selection process, I tell the member. So there are two boards there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EA point was raised by Mr Grant Robertson about the balance between stable funding and contestable funding. That is an important point, and the OECD task force made a report in 2007 on this very issue. The previous Government seemingly just ignored that report, but we established the Crown Research Institute Taskforce, which was intended to take on board the lessons from it. Members may know that the OECD has just come to New Zealand in the last week, essentially to review what has occurred since then. The report particularly noted two things. The Crown Research Institute Taskforce will deliver more stable funding. We do not want all of the funding to be stable, and I think Mr Robertson was correct in saying that. There is an issue of balance, and we have the Science and Innovation Advisory Council to ensure that the balance is there. But there is no doubt that the Crown research institutes are enthusiastic about the results of the task force and are looking forward to implementing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are three elements. Firstly, statements of core purpose are hugely important. The most effective Crown research institutes are the ones that have the best understanding of their mission. The second element is stable funding, or core funding as it is called. The third element is a more appropriate form of accountability. Financial measures are still important, but they are not the only measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is my clear understanding that those within the sector have been appreciative of the measures undertaken. They can see the strategic purpose of those measures: the ministry, the Crown Research Institute Taskforce, and the simplification\u2014hugely\u2014of the appropriations. I inherited a system where the appropriation system was chaotic and caused a huge amount of confusion within the sector. One of the ways that we improve the sector is to reduce compliance costs within the sector. Mr Shearer knows what I am talking about, because he has heard it from many, many people. Those sorts of things have been done to date. They form something of a foundation for further improvements, and the sector has the opportunity to build from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EPart 1 is all about getting a more effective system that will be able to achieve the purposes set out in clause 7. I assure Mr Hipkins that the two boards have been established precisely to ensure that the Minister does not fund individual scientists. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221dd6d75109c1422aa303be27ef7f0b18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dd6d75109c1422aa303be27ef7f0b18\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Before I was interrupted on the State Sector Management Bill, I was about to go on to clause 8. But I think I will return briefly to respond to a couple of Dr Mapp\u2019s comments, in particular, in relation to the research and development tax credit, since I had raised that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESuggesting that the fund that has been set up\u2014some announcements about which were made in the last few days\u2014somehow replaces that tax credit is a bizarre thing to say. How does Dr Mapp or, indeed, any of the officials who are making the decision really know they have covered the waterfront, in terms of making sure we have the best and the brightest people working on the best ideas in New Zealand? The research and development tax credit had the great advantage of being universal for companies and accessed by everybody. Weta Digital does remarkable work and needs to be supported in that, but it might not be the only organisation that is doing that work. We need to support companies across the board if we are going to lift the amount of research and development that is done in New Zealand. It is no coincidence that other countries in the world use a universal-style tax credit, because they want to encourage all companies to invest in research and development, and the opposite is true: they do not want to see companies going overseas because the support is not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOne of the great risks of moving away from the tax credit approach is that the Australians have retained the tax credit, and the incentive is now there for people to go overseas. So it is all very well to say that a fund has been established and we are finding the people who will lead us into the future, but what about new companies? What about the start-up companies that really need that support, but now do not get it because winners have been picked by the Minister of Research, Science and Technology or the Minister\u2019s officials? I think that the Minister raising that point now really drives home to us why this bill, and why Part 1 of this bill, although relatively anodyne, does not take us anywhere. Those good initiatives of the fifth Labour Government may have been undone by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am grateful to the Minister for responding to my comments about the question of contestability and stability, and obviously that is an issue of great significance to the Crown research institutes. It is also an issue of significance to universities. University research in this country is vitally important to our economy. It is of growing importance to our economy, and there is concern among some university researchers about the way in which they relate to Crown research institutes, how they are able to work with them, and whether there are systems in place within the purposes and the criteria laid out in Part 1 for universities and Crown research institutes to work together. University researchers are very well aware that their job is to get into those contestable areas and to try to get support. They have the Performance-based Research Fund as an underlying piece of stable funding, but it is very important for them to know they are regarded as being part of that research sector. I encourage the Minister, in talking about that, to ensure that universities are mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETo return to clause 8, as I was about to say, in the Education and Science Committee one submitter came to us and suggested that the way in which the Minister might set criteria needs some consideration, as well. The question, really, was whether the Minister should be setting this criteria on an annual basis, or perhaps with a slightly more arm\u2019s-length approach by moving out to some kind of policy statement that might set the criteria, with a frequency of no more than every 3 years. Again, the committee looked at the approach, as listed in clause 8, and felt that it was OK for that to continue. But, again, there was some concern, as my colleague Chris Hipkins said, about the closeness of the Minister to some of those procedures. How do we know that a particular Minister will not push a particular barrow, and so on? That was one of the issues raised under clause 8. The Minister in the chair could take a call and advise us how he will implement clause 8. When this bill is passed into law\u2014for a brief period, anyway\u2014it will be his responsibility to implement it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Education and Science Committee decided to make a change to clause 9, and I am sure that my colleague David Shearer will take this matter up, as well. We were concerned about the way in which proposals could be referred to the boards and how they would make decisions on those matters. In order for boards to be independent and to give a proper assessment that was not directed entirely by officials or entirely by the Minister, they would need their own sources of information. Clearly, that was of great concern to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226354a21af95a487f8fa709e8ec227a63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226354a21af95a487f8fa709e8ec227a63\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on Part 1 during this example of the Government\u2019s bold agenda for reform in our country, which sees us sitting under urgency on a Saturday. Part 1 deals with the science sector, and we will deal with other parts during the morning. Of course, we have been told by members opposite that they are not scared of hard work, but we have heard only the briefest of calls from them during the morning. Roger Douglas, who came to Parliament to try to reform the State sector, could not speak for even 1 minute on a bill that reforms the State sector. So we are grateful to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Wayne Mapp, who is at least engaging on some of the issues. Although we have a lot of criticism of him, at least there is some praise in that respect for the fact that he is taking it very, very seriously. But that is not what we are seeing from other areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI have about three points on different clauses that I would like to address this morning. The first is clause 7. It deals with the purposes for which specified research, science, and technology funding may be allocated. Subclause (2) sets out six criteria for which there are purposes that are considered to be germane to the funding of sciences. I think that the areas the Minister has set out are far too narrow. In particular, I would like him to comment on the complete absence of any focus on M\u0101ori issues for research, science, and technology. I see that the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill, and I ask them to reflect on this clause. There is nothing in the purposes listed that specifically indicates there is a role for this new agency to have any focus on M\u0101ori issues for research, science, and technology. I say to the Minister if the New Zealand Government is not going to have a focus on M\u0101ori issues for research, science, and technology, then which country is? Which country will look at M\u0101ori-specific issues, a M\u0101ori kaupapa view, on research, science, and technology, as he is specifically making sure that in this bill the New Zealand Government is not going to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThat is a massive omission from, and weakness in, clause 7(2). New Zealand\u2019s economic growth is specified as the second purpose but there is nothing at all for M\u0101ori interests\u2014in particular, M\u0101ori economic development. If we think of some of the areas where there are significant M\u0101ori asset holdings in the country, particularly around land holdings, I would have thought that the ability of innovation in research, science, and technology to unlock some of the potential for M\u0101ori economic interests would be absolutely suited to, enhanced by, and lifted up by the purposes in clause 7. I want to know from the Minister whether that was an overt decision by the Government when considering this issue through Cabinet. Did it make an overt decision to exclude a specified clause for M\u0101ori issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5ae04d8c914fad9e5df760b34f5250\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: They talked to him about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee1e82d0e174deebe9b2970c42fa9f0\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The member Moana Mackey makes the point to me that M\u0101ori have specifically talked to him about it. M\u0101ori interests have gone to him and said they want to be included in the research, science, and technology agenda. Clause 7(2) does not facilitate the ability for that to happen. I think that is a mistake; it is an omission. I do not think we should simply vote this bill through because it is Saturday morning and Government members are grumpy at the Leader of the House because they are here. That is not a reason not to speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046cf758745c4b21b24e53ca814b85a4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224156f24acf0441b88dd6fc99d15d4428\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite looks particularly grumpy, but that could be for other reasons. We know, well and truly, of their inability to engage in debate on these issues. We know they have had enough. They say we should just get over it and go. But if \u201Cgetting over it and going\u201D means that M\u0101ori interests are forgotten, then the Government will have to make sure it does not omit such important issues as M\u0101ori economic interests. I want the Minister to talk about that, in a very important way for our country, because if the New Zealand Government cannot do it, no other Government will. He needs to address that and explain why it has been left out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EAnother purpose that has been left out is to make sure there is a connection with private scientific research. That is a big mistake. This Government talks long about the need to have public-private partnerships, yet this bill is at the cutting edge of the Government\u2019s reform agenda. Members of Parliament, like Melissa Lee, came here to merge Archives New Zealand and the National Library. She came here to make sure that the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology can line up with the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology. Those are crucial issues of substance, amazing things that have happened, yet we now know that Government members will not have the gumption to talk about them, particularly to bring that private focus through in this clause. So I wanted to talk about why the M\u0101ori focus is not included in the purposes in clause 7(2) and also why the private focus is not there. If the Minister has cause to reflect on those exclusions, he may be able to inform the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe could amend the clause right here and now. We could introduce a new paragraph (g) in subclause (2) to provide a kaupapa focus. If that amendment were put up, I am sure Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party would support that. He seems to be getting some notes at the present time on that very matter. I cannot believe that the M\u0101ori Party would vote for a clause that specifically excludes the ability of M\u0101ori to be recognised, overtly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe know that National went through a phase where things M\u0101ori were unpopular. The 2005 intake campaigned on the \u201CKiwi not iwi\u201D billboards, and some Ministers\u2014particularly one I see on the front-bench\u2014cackled and giggled away about how brave they were in the Brash years. That was an amazing thing, she thought. Then that kind of went out of vogue, because it was all \u201Ct\u012Bhei mauri ora!\u201D with the M\u0101ori Party and getting in with them. So Government members in regard to clause 7 could show us that they genuinely meant that stuff or whether it was just a passing moment in time. Was it just one of those things one does in Opposition but not in Government? That could be the new principle of the Brownlee Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022905c632fc5a1446c99c287532df4e6e3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The member is flustered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76479e52f7d48feb798ed29c8e7ffed\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is so much to say, because I know there are only a limited number of calls between now and midnight and I intend to take all of them, before I come back here on Monday morning. I want to make sure we are working very hard. The Leader of the House should not be so surly about his inability to run a programme and his inability to put together a programme where people could agree on things. That would not fit with clause 7, I must admit. But clause 7 should include a M\u0101ori focus and a private focus. If the Minister ignores everything else I say, I can understand that, but on that M\u0101ori issue I would like to hear from him, because at one time he was the Opposition spokesperson on the eradication of political correctness. That is what he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225affb6248044b15871326045bd9b210\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Wayne Mapp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e7d01a0fc8c4bd0a321f2f6902d2e2e\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Wayne Mapp had a portfolio about eradicating political correctness. I want to know whether his bias and prejudice on that matter is why clause 7 has come through in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405fe713babc464495e6b32375c71e64\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Lost it in November 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66168bd8a404a85ad5527316873876f\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Huge success! The portfolio did not survive a change of leader. As soon as Brash had gone and Gerry Brownlee was sacked as deputy leader of the National Party, the portfolio was gone. That was part of the long decline of Gerry Brownlee\u2019s career, which started the moment John Key took the leadership and Wayne Mapp lost his portfolio. Mr Chairman, I was responding to an interjection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe next thing I want to say is about clause 8(3)(b) and the conflicts with the board being directed to allocate funds for the benefit of a particular person. I trust that the Minister has quite a sensible approach on this and about how the board will operate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b572a9b806b24ad09067164e22f87543\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba857104c3d45a090b874ab7e9a6a53\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I am a generous person. It is ridiculous. I want the Minister to give us an assurance that he will not have that board modelled on the way the New Zealand Transport Agency board has been modelled in this respect. We see extraordinary political interference from the Minister of Transport in respect of a similar kind of clause in another law. I want the Minister to give an assurance to the Committee that the kind of political interference that Steven Joyce undertakes, particularly around ridiculous roading proposals for the people of Kapiti, will not be repeated in the science sphere. But that is just by the by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe next clause I want to address is clause 10(7), and it is very important because this bill is at the heart of the Government\u2019s reform agenda. This bill shows how it will transform the New Zealand economy\u2014turbocharge New Zealand, catch up with Australia, and bring step change for working families in New Zealand. This bill is part of the reform agenda to do that. Clause 10(7) refers to all the administrative services being transferred to the new ministry to enable the board to carry out its function. That goes to the heart of the cost of this legislation becoming law. At the time, Minister Tony Ryall\u2014let us not say any more about that\u2014said that over 3 years this bill would save $20 million through the savings in administrative costs. I would like to know from the Minister under clause 10(7) how much there will be in savings as a result of the research, science, and technology changes, and what the administrative costs are that are being transferred for the ministry to pick up for these two boards to operate. If it is $20 million over 3 years for the whole package, what proportion of that fits in under the research, science, and technology banner? We have not had anywhere that I can see an explanation of what those costs are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Government is trying to get the deficit down because it has borrowed money for tax cuts and we are running a big deficit in New Zealand. If this reform agenda is about reducing costs, then surely the Minister will be able to tell us what burden of costs will be put on the ministry under this clause. It seems to me this could be an area where any of the savings that Minister Tony Ryall has identified could easily be eaten up by the board functions. He has told us that under paragraph (a) of the purpose clause there will be two boards; the purpose of Part 1 is to establish boards. I was going to ask him how many boards; he has told us there are two. We would like to know about the cost. The M\u0101ori issues are very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002273286838f96f45fb8df8ae92647321e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273286838f96f45fb8df8ae92647321e1\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00226b0354bbee5f4b66905492f5cc9844f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b0354bbee5f4b66905492f5cc9844f3\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is something of a disgrace that the National Government should want to shut down discussion of the State Sector Management Bill, which is critical legislation being brought to us under urgency. I will address that matter in a moment. At the outset I say that as somebody who gave up science at the end of the fifth form, I am not one to talk about any details of science, but I grasp absolutely the importance of research, science, and technology to the future of this county. It is a no-brainer. It is recognised internationally. In fact, President Obama said that the future lies in science, science, and science. I have been really pleased over the last 2 years\u2014although it has taken the Minister of Research, Science and Technology, Dr Wayne Mapp, 2 years\u2014to see him move to a position where there is a quiver of excitement about him around this portfolio. It is clear that he has now latched on to the fact that this is of critical importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party supports this particular move in this bill. But why are we debating it in urgency? I do not understand why it should have been brought under urgency. It seems to me that in Part 1, which we are debating at the moment, nothing needed urgency applied to it. I advise the Minister that if, in fact, this had been a tax bill that had reintroduced the research and development tax credit, then yes, urgency might have been needed in order for the tax credit to be effective again from 1 April. But, no, this Government decided when it came into office to kill the research and development tax credit, which had been in place for nearly 1 year and was about to bear fruit for all of those businesses that had invested in research and development and were going to see some of the benefits of that investment. If that had been Part 1 of this bill, then there might have been some justification for urgency. However, as it is, under Part 1 we have all the provisions relating to research, science, and technology, particularly the allocation of funding and the establishment of the structures that will deliver it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe thing about this legislation and the enabling clauses in this part of the legislation is that the country actually needs more than what this tinkering delivers. In fact, if the Government had not been so obsessed with utu and revenge, and it had just taken a deep breath when it first came into office, it may have seen the sense and the purpose of the research and development tax credit and not taken the axe to it, as it did to our Fast Forward Fund of some $700 million, which was beginning to bear substantial fruit. In scrapping the tax credit and not reintroducing it through a tax bill but simply reshuffling the structures, this Government is really indicating that, first of all, it has been misfiring on the elements that are needed to promote a really dynamic science and innovation environment in New Zealand, and, secondly, it has taken 2 years to get to anything that would be remotely useful in this space in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe do not oppose the reshuffling that is happening, but we are concerned that this is all there is at the moment. Although there is some reference to funding in this part of the bill, the fact remains that it is nowhere near sufficient. This is a moment when, as with so many other parts of the Government\u2019s activity, there is insufficient investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002218826d5a5bf84d15b345489abcfb352b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218826d5a5bf84d15b345489abcfb352b\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00225b341ca01ff54d4b9e18bd084d95fce9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b341ca01ff54d4b9e18bd084d95fce9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just checking before I call the next speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae2ab69e0f2143a385bff3939d2bab2b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Which one paid the most?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed092cf4b69e42dd85fd0c58611f1e4f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: They are all in arrears. I call David Shearer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u002225ef7d79610943beb4683ab12b91c5ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ef7d79610943beb4683ab12b91c5ae\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will spend a couple of minutes commenting on the response of the Minister of State Services to questions that arose as a result of some of the probing from this side of the Committee on this part of the State Sector Management Bill. I thought two things he said were really important. First of all, he said that the vouchers and the grant scheme that this Government has brought in as its new way of stimulating the economic side of our science and innovation moving forward are oversubscribed. That is the word: \u201Coversubscribed\u201D. It means that a bunch of different companies out there did not get a look in. They did not actually get any of the grants or the vouchers. Why would they not get a look in? One of the reasons might be that with many of these companies that applied for a grant, the entrepreneurs behind them have mortgaged their own house, have borrowed from friends, and have gone to the bank, because they have a really good idea. They have an idea like, for example, Facebook or Google. Those people went to the Government department, went to the bureaucrats who decide on the vouchers and grants that are to be allocated, and were turned down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EMembers should contrast that with the tax credit. The tax credit would actually universally enable companies to get research and development relief as a result of their own efforts. It would have brought about a cultural change in companies in New Zealand that would lift our appalling private sector research and development, which is less than one-third of the OECD average. It would have actually brought about the transformation that this Government says it wants. It would have brought about the step change that it wants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI come back to what the Minister said in response to questions. He said that this scheme is superior to Labour\u2019s tax credits. I point out one piece of information that came up in the last few weeks when I was talking to various people. First of all, companies want the tax credit more than they want the grants. That is overwhelming. If members sit down and talk to the chief executive officer of any company, they will find that that is exactly what they will say: they would prefer the tax credit, of course. But the grant is there, so they apply for it. They apply for it because it means they will get more money for research and development, and they can use the money they were going to spend on research and development to fund other parts of the company. It is not stimulating more research and development; it is keeping it more or less the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut I come back to the point that the tax credit system is superior. When the Labour Government was putting the tax credit in place, it went to Australia and looked at its tax credit system to see what was available and what was being offered. The Australian system was effectively a 7 percent tax credit at that point. It was very hard to administer and was not seen as particularly cutting edge. Our officials came back here and put together the tax credit and it came in during the last year of the Labour Government. It was supported by Treasury. It was a 15 percent tax credit that would cost about $37 million in its first year and rise to about $350 million after 5 years. Foolishly, it was voted out by this Government when it came into office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhat did the Rudd Labor Government in Australia do when it came into office? The first thing it did was raise its research and development budget by 25 percent. If we are looking to try to catch Australia, we should consider what Australia did. That was the first thing it did. I think there was a 6 percent increase in the total package of reforms that this Government brought in, in the Budget, versus Australia\u2019s 25 percent. But the really interesting thing that happened was that the Australian officials came to New Zealand, looked at our tax credit system, and took it back to Australia. Australia right now has an almost carbon copy of the credit system that the Labour Government put in place here. Why is that? It is because Australia recognised that that was the best thing it could do to encourage innovation in companies throughout Australia. There has been an appalling loss of potential in this country as a result of this Government cutting the Labour tax credit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9667f7ed81642ad9e0b69ef52f5abf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9667f7ed81642ad9e0b69ef52f5abf8\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 1 of the State Sector Management Bill in relation to the merger of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and the creation of a Ministry of Science and Innovation. As other colleagues have said, we support this provision and believe it to be in line with our support for innovation. We are concerned, though, that this by itself will not make the huge difference that we need in this country. A merger is not a plan, and this Government has failed to show real commitment in the area of innovation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI want to talk specifically about clauses 17, 18, and 19. These are the clauses that relate to the employees of these organisations. Whenever we look at structural change like this it is very important that we consider the implications for the people who work in those organisations. These are people with families who work very hard at their jobs. I understand that the people who work at the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology are well-regarded people who are committed to the work they do. I know that the organisation that speaks on behalf of those employees, the Public Service Association, has acknowledged in its submission to the select committee that its members at the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology are generally supportive of the objectives of the merger and welcome the opportunity to work in a new organisation mandated to lead Government and sector work on science and innovation. So it is a good start that the employees can see that it is valuable. They are also not resistant to change, and their union makes that point, but they urged the Education and Science Committee to take account of the fact that change is difficult and stressful, that it can be demoralising, and that those issues must be mitigated by good process and good leadership. I hope that that has been taken on board by the Minister. I would be very interested to hear from the Minister, if he was listening, as to whether he considers that it is important to provide and encourage that good leadership in a process of staff change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EAs I say, clauses 17, 18, and 19 outline the rights of employees in these organisations. It appears that they are reasonably comprehensive and will allow for a smooth transfer of employees from both the foundation and the ministry into the new organisation, the Ministry of Science and Innovation. I am very pleased to see that, but there is a need for some certainty in these organisations. Certainly, the people who work at the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology have already been going through a period of significant uncertainty. I understand that last year 50 percent of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology\u2019s first, second, and third-tier managers left and that none were replaced on a permanent basis. That takes me to my next point, which is that this new organisation, which we support, is expecting a lot more. There are a whole lot of new things to be done, and that is positive, but the expectation of this Government is that this will be done with less staff. So there is a significant reduction in staffing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca9a26917764cf0bc56ba23c443859e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe3f710aa5c4714bace77185c3fbea6\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, fewer staff. I thank my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard very much. He is on the ball even at this time on a Saturday morning. Fewer staff will be expected to deliver more, and that is an important point. We need to make sure that we are not putting levels of pressure on people that would undermine the very good intentions of this new ministry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOne of the very interesting points in clause 19 I want to talk about is subclause (3), which is about the avoidance of doubt. It states that: \u201Cthe employment of a transferred employee \u2026 does not\u2014(a) constitute new employment for the purposes of the KiwiSaver Act\u201D, and that is good, but, most important, paragraph (b) states that it does not \u201Ctreat that employee as a new employee for the purposes of the Employment Relations Act\u201D. Many people in this Chamber may not understand the significance of that, although I hope that at least the people on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee do. It is, of course, that these employees, unlike many other New Zealand employees, will not be prone to dismissal in the first 90 days of their new employment. They will retain their rights as employees. They will retain the right to take an unjustified dismissal case should that unfortunate situation ever arise for them. I thought that it was worth noting that at least this group of employees will not suffer from the consequences of the very poor employment relations changes that have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00225233ff4117c349218a41021dec9c69af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225233ff4117c349218a41021dec9c69af\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6ab41cccc494d8cb01fb37e2f4a2dd0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 37; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000256\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Darren Hughes to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000257\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (2) the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000258\u0022\u003E(g)\tpromotes or facilitates a M\u0101ori world view of research, science and technology.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259f5caae978f499786675319619aab80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000259\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 189 in the name of Hon Tony Ryall to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000260\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000261\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a91f564a40e4285b079e54030a48d82\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Act 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1a2b3add314e27a6f69c3da1550e81\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate includes schedule 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229120751da3cd47e0950c3f6e67fad1f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229120751da3cd47e0950c3f6e67fad1f4\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E We move now to the parts of the State Sector Management Bill that the Labour Opposition has significant concerns about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222197f463f18f4174b95109a568765b6a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the controversial bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225701e47815b94c6684ba560d3d8f9d13\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is controversial, and it makes quite a significant change to very important parts of our democratic and constitutional infrastructure. Part 2 obviously deals with the National Library\u2019s merger into the Department of Internal Affairs, and Part 3 deals with the Archives New Zealand merger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI turn to Part 2. This is where Labour has a particular concern about why this is being done. Obviously, when we come to debate clause by clause there is no clause generally that will answer that question, but I think it is an important place to start our debate. The National Library is regarded by most people in the public sector and most of the stakeholders who work with it as a high-functioning, well-regarded organisation. I am sure the Minister in the chair, the Minister responsible for the National Library, would agree with that. In fact, Audit New Zealand has consistently over the last few years noted what a high-functioning organisation the National Library is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe question is why on earth we are here today on a Saturday morning debating merging a high-functioning, nimble organisation such as the National Library\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b505a8bdbbc42168708b4e6d514411d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got an answer for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5596b9f10e8469ba2d3450c8480abbb\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would be interested to hear that in a moment, I say to Mr Cosgrove. Why would we be merging a high-functioning, nimble organisation like the National Library into a large organisation with multiple responsibilities such as the Department of Internal Affairs, when we heard that the financial savings from this merger, for both Archives New Zealand and the National Library, could be as low as $160,000 a year\u2014$160,000 a year\u2014with about 15 jobs lost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232382949aa8a46de814dbc0a3a585256\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: It costs more than that to run Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f344df12b7c84bf9a9dc7e7c515c0935\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. As the Hon Ruth Dyson said, it is probably costing more than that for us to be here today. If financial saving is the justification from the Government then it is indeed a very, very poor justification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 2 begins by defining a number of terms, and these are quite significant. Although a particular Minister, we are told by the National Government, will still hold the portfolio for the National Library, we now see that the National Librarian immediately becomes subject to the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. The chief executive will act as the employer for the National Librarian, who is in charge of our National Library. So immediately the Government\u2019s claim that this bill\u2014this particular part of the bill\u2014does not dilute the independence of the National Library is called into question. When we get into the interpretation, we see that the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs now has that power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the remainder of Part 2 of this bill there are some mitigation measures around how the National Librarian will still be able to perform his or her role. But that does not get us away from the fact that we are reducing the independence of the person who heads our National Library today, let alone\u2014and I will come back to this in later calls\u2014the head of the Alexander Turnbull Library. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the midst of the exercise that we did, the Department of Internal Affairs released the organisational design for the new department with the merged Archives New Zealand and National Library in it. We saw that, in this case, the National Librarian will be a third-tier manager in the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014not even part of the executive leadership team, and not able to influence directly the overall strategy of the Department of Internal Affairs. Immediately, again, the independence and the influence of the National Librarian is taken out and reduced by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe ask ourselves to what end. This organisation is achieving well\u2014though, admittedly, facing budget cuts, as my colleague Moana Mackey said in the second reading of this bill. The funding for the school library service has been cut from the National Library. But, still, it is performing well as an organisation. We ask ourselves why we would dilute that influence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224666faa521d24b2dbaffb23a1c3aed86\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222528cb8f0cd3418ea445fa63da50b692\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We do not know, because throughout the select committee process we got no answer to justify why this was being done. In the end, it came down to some kind of ideological view about reducing the number of Government departments and possibly cutting the chief executive salary bill. That was about as good as we got. There was no justification for how this change might actually improve the services New Zealanders get. There was no justification for how it might actually enhance our historical and democratic infrastructure. It was almost as if it was about solving someone else\u2019s problem\u2014a problem that we could never actually identify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs a consequence, I have put forward a typescript amendment in my name to insert a new subclause in clause 25, which amends section 9 of the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Act, so that we can actually ensure that the National Librarian has some influence. At the moment there is no guaranteed access to the Minister for the National Librarian. I am sure that Minister Guy will undertake his job seriously and he will want to talk to the National Librarian from time to time. But it will be Mr Guy\u2019s prerogative to decide. He will decide whether he should meet the National Librarian; it is not guaranteed in this bill. I have an amendment that would give the National Librarian the ability, on his or her own initiative, to advise the Minister and to report to the Minister, and to acknowledge that the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs is not necessarily the conduit through which they have to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the only way that we will be able to ensure that the National Library retains the degree of independence it needs as part of our system. The history of an agency\u2014and we will come back to this matter in Part 3, which is around Archives New Zealand\u2014subsumed within the Department of Internal Affairs and how it actually gets access and influence in the process is a very important matter. I urge the Minister to take a call and tell us whether he is prepared to support my amendment, because we on this side of the Chamber believe that the National Librarian needs that ability to speak directly to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other element missing is how we mitigate the measures that are in here. Obviously I want to make it clear that from a Labour point of view we believe that it is wholly unnecessary to merge the National Library into the Department of Internal Affairs, but as we are here debating these clauses we want to try to improve them and ensure that there actually is the degree of independence that the National Librarian requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other new clause we propose is clause 29A, which requires the National Librarian to prepare annual reports. At the moment that requirement has gone, because the library is subsumed within the Department of Internal Affairs. Yes, there might end up being a section in the department\u2019s report where the National Library\u2019s activities will be covered, but New Zealanders will now have a lot less information available to them about the activities of the National Library. So I am suggesting new clause 29A, which requires the National Librarian to publish a report for tabling in this House, and the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library\u2014which, as I say, I will return to in a future call\u2014will also have an obligation to prepare such a report. These things are extremely important because this is the only way that we will know that New Zealanders\u2019 faith and trust in the National Library can be upheld. We need to have that requirement within this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThose are two mitigation measures, but overall the position of the National Librarian is diminished by this particular part of the bill. We had submissions in the Education and Science Committee from people from bodies such as the Library and Information Association of New Zealand and the Friends of the Turnbull Library. All of them came to us and said that we needed to ensure that the National Library had status, mana, influence, and independence. All of those things are important. Although the National Library will never make the headlines, and it will never be the thing that people immediately refer to at their summer barbecues, it lies at the heart of\u2014[Interruption] Judith Collins will. Quite often Judith Collins at her summer barbecues talks about the National Library. In between talking about Clayton Cosgrove she talks about the National Library, which is obviously important to her. The independence of the National Librarian is a subject that New Zealanders should be concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe committee was told by officials and press reports from the Minister that this change represented a reasonable practice internationally. Well, that is simply not borne out by the evidence that we have found. In actual fact, a national library is regarded in most countries as a key, core element of something beyond the administration of Government, which makes it incredibly sad that this National Government has reduced the National Library to being a mere part of the bureaucracy, a department that could be placed anywhere. Quite frankly, under the logic being applied in this bill, the National Library could be merged into the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. It really would not make any difference, because it is all about back-office efficiencies. We are all in favour of back-office efficiencies, but I ask why we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. We could have a high-functioning organisation supported to continue that work, rather than being subsumed alongside other parts of the Department of Internal Affairs that, quite frankly, are not relevant to its work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022123b67f6da7e4d9b99c4ed93a4e49c27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022123b67f6da7e4d9b99c4ed93a4e49c27\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the State Sector Management Bill really concerns us here in Opposition. It is very clear that Cabinet Ministers, in Government, have dropped the ball on an incredibly important aspect of our cultural and heritage sector. In fact, my colleague Grant Robertson just talked about this shift of where we plonk the National Library and what we do with the Alexander Turnbull Library. It would have probably fitted better in a structure of the Ministry of Arts, Culture and Heritage, not sitting in the huge Government Department of Internal Affairs. The Minister of Internal Affairs, the Hon Nathan Guy, is looking at me, thinking, gosh, that might have been quite a good idea, and asking the Government why it did not think of that. But at the financial review of the Department of Internal Affairs, I asked some questions of the chief executive. He is new, keen, and determined to provide improved customer services\u2014more efficient services that are accountable to the public. But he looked a bit perplexed about why the entities were to be merged. The justification we heard at the select committee was that a new information technology transformation was happening in Government departments. We heard that the National Library and Archives will be digitised and new technologies will be used, and that the emergence of those new technologies drove the decision, which is simply nuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI reiterate that if Minister Finlayson had been watching all the Cabinet papers that were going through the hands of Minister Ryall and Nathan Guy, he would have stood up, because he knows, and he would have advocated that the process should stop and that a fundamental error was being made in this component. Minister Finlayson has dropped the ball on our heritage and cultural sector and the importance of the repository of national collections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe National Library was established in 1965. It brought together the General Assembly Library, the Alexander Turnbull Library, and the National Library. Some of these functions in New Zealand have great historical significance and date back to the 1850s. On Part 2, we seek assurances that the role of the National Librarian, the delegations of the National Librarian, and the Alexander Turnbull Library will all continue. But, for goodness\u2019 sake, the Minister in the chair knows how ministries work, and this is becoming a superministry. These incredibly important functions that should be stand-alone functions are put into third-tier divisions of this new monster Department of Internal Affairs, with no lines to the Minister unless my colleague Grant Robertson\u2019s amendment is passed today. I urge members of the House to at least consider that amendment that allows the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian to have reporting lines to the Minister. We need to open up those doors so they can take those unique elements of the National Library service not just to the chief executive, who has his door open but, for goodness\u2019 sake, directly to the Minister. I think there are very substantial amendments that we need to look at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI believe also that National has forgotten\u2014this issue came up and is in our minority report\u2014about the damage to the reputation of the Alexander Turnbull Library. The holdings of that library are private collections that New Zealanders who had a great love of books, our history, and our collected stories donated to the Alexander Turnbull Library. Those holdings will now sit under the auspices of the Department of Internal Affairs. That is absolutely, simply crazy, and it defies logic. Judith Collins laughs, but I am sure that in her family history there will be people who probably would like to have confidence that if they donate great collections of books to the Alexander Turnbull Library, for goodness\u2019 sake, they will not be under the management and executive function of the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. It is absolutely stupid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI know what happened here: the Government looked for efficiencies, economies of scale, and digitalisation opportunities, because there will need to be digitalisation of a lot of our material held. But that is not where this department, the National Library, and the role of the chief librarian should sit. It is an insult to those professionals. It is no wonder that those professionals, who have great dignity and intelligence, feel insulted by what is happening to them and to their passion for collections of great significance. They will find themselves in the Department of Internal Affairs, which is an awful name. I ask what that name says about telling about our stories and our unique identity as New Zealanders both to children in the country and to those internationally: \u201CGo to the Department of Internal Affairs when you come to New Zealand. There\u2019s an Alexander Turnbull Library run by the Department of Internal Affairs.\u201D It is an insult, and it is no wonder that those professionals are quietly making decisions about their own future, which will delight Tony Ryall, because he wants those vacancies to occur, in the name of efficiency. He forgets what he is losing in institutional memory and the experience of amazingly qualified people who are seen internationally as great leaders of managing such repositories of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis is a shambles. This is what happened in Canada. The Minister in the chair should listen to the fact that when we looked at international examples we saw that when there was a merger in Canada\u2014because we always look to similar things that are happening and where great ideas are happening internationally\u2014there was a decline in services. I ask whether the Minister really looked and saw the impact of that. He was actually beaten by Minister Tony Ryall, who said: \u201CThis is what we are going to do. Have I got an idea for you! We are just going to make a superministry here. Now, who should we suck into this ministry called the Department of Internal Affairs? Not Creative New Zealand or the Ministry of Arts, Culture and Heritage.\u201D That is where Archives and the National Library should have sat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd604c9ffe75402e9cb2fb6fbf617344\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure this Minister boldly stood up for his department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022481edebcc8ef4e6cbe62ef99879a696e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: No he did not. He did not advocate at all. But do not worry, because here we are in Part 2 looking after the delegations of the National Librarian and the functions of the National Librarian. Clause 27 relates to the continuation of the Alexander Turnbull Library. \u201CDo not worry, New Zealanders, it will still be there.\u201D! Great! Third tier in the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014what an insult! What an insult to the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI am afraid this bill will\u2014[Interruption] Yes it is, look at clause 28. It is an insult. This bill has resulted in a deep vein of resentment against this Government and the high-handed and arrogant way it views public servants as just bureaucrats, whom it can shuffle around on the decks and not be worried about the impact, for $165,000 of savings every year. It says: \u201CHave we got the answer for you for the super-service on archival material and library material!\u201D. That is a disgrace. It has insulted professionals in New Zealand. It will not result in a better service for the public. It subsumes those who have developed independence and professional integrity into a super ministry. That will have a very negative impact on this Government when it comes to the election next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00226c02a50900b14a1f865c4af42ba5645f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c02a50900b14a1f865c4af42ba5645f\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. We have heard a couple of excellent calls\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f26b016944468fa83cda411b699041\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: But I haven\u2019t spoken yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd010f6264548fea8bdebc69d60dd4b\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014from Grant Robertson and Steve Chadwick. I am sure we will have some excellent calls from the member Darren Hughes later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI disagree with one part Grant Robertson talked about, which is that the State Services Management Bill will not be discussed over summer barbecues. I, for one, being particularly geeky, will be talking about this at my summer barbecues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022161246375de94682827fe7818f3549c7\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Go to Judith Collins\u2019 barbecue, because she will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804180b9ff884ac88671ae9d15117da1\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, and Judith Collins. Maybe we will be at the same barbecue. A whole sector of the country will be talking about this bill at summer barbecues: the historians, the archivists, and those involved in the science and technology sector. They will be talking about it. Steve Chadwick is right: some of those people are feeling insulted professionally by what is happening in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI said I am geeky; it is true. I have been campaigning this year to stop library fee introductions at libraries in Taranaki and in Tauranga. I introduced an amendment to the Local Government Act to ensure free access to library books. It is just so important. Our libraries are our community hubs. The National Library is the hub of our country. It is the host of our nation\u2019s intellect, our creativity, our entertainment. It is an amazing source. It is particularly important for those 3,000 other libraries around the country that it supplies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat questions will be asked at those summer barbecues? One of the questions is why we are doing it. Another relevant question is why we are doing it under urgency. But why are we doing it full stop? When we look at the Cabinet paper that sparked this bill, we see that the National Library and Archives New Zealand were described as well-regarded institutions. The Library and Information Association of New Zealand wrote in its submission: \u201Cstructural changes made should enhance rather than detract from the many services provided by the National Library and enjoyed by New Zealanders today. The rationale for the merger is superficial, the savings seem to be minimal, and inevitably there will be a loss of productivity during and after such a major restructure.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe key question\u2014which is absent from the Cabinet papers, and from mention by the Government officials and the Minister of State Services\u2014is what the impact will be for library users. It is amazing that in a bill that talks about library users and archive users there is hardly any mention of what the improvements will be for those who access the National Library. There is no mention of that. There is no mention of how we are enshrining best library practice in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d0dc75e74a4538b89a2d8bb6e59d51\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Professionalism doesn\u2019t matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4af9d8ff1794fb7a753bcf6ff09194e\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Professionalism does not matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI will touch on four points to do with Part 2. First, I will look at the role of the National Librarian; second, I will look at the technology and digitisation debate; third, I will look at the overseas image and the impact this bill will have on that; and, fourth, I will ask why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EFirst I will look at the role of the National Librarian. This bill changes the role seriously. It reduces the role from an executive to an employee. It puts the role into a third-tier relationship. One submitter commented that it is like being dropped from the All Blacks and moving down to a provincial second XV. We are seeing the National Librarian drop in mana, in influence, and in the ability to talk to the responsible Minister and convince him or her of the need for action. When it comes to the Alexander Turnbull Library, the position has dropped even further, to a position that is even worse than the provincial team\u2014maybe to a high school first XV bench. It has dropped down to the fourth tier. Ironically, the Guardians/Kaitiaki of the Alexander Turnbull Library will have more access to the Minister than the National Librarian will have under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will today support many of the Labour amendments, including changing clause 25 in order to bring back access to the Minister for the National Librarian. I am thinking of the Minister when I support this amendment, because it is important that the Minister gets the best possible advice. He does not want to be given the low-down on the National Library by a dry Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs; he wants to hear from someone with fire in their belly, someone with a bit of passion for libraries and for the importance of libraries. I am thinking of the Minister. I hope that National supports that amendment, because the Minister needs all the advice he can get. I support it. Likewise, the public needs all the good advice it can get. We will support the amendment to add new clause 29A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EPart 2 changes the relationship with the Minister. We can write all we want in the bill about ensuring statutory independence, but the reality is that it will come down to the people who are in those positions. Who will the Department of Internal Affairs chief executive be? Who will the National Librarian be? How will they work together? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIt is a false premise that because the Department of Internal Affairs and the National Library do broadly similar material they should be merged together. Conglomeration can be good, but in this case it seems to be conglomeration for conglomeration\u2019s sake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen we look at technology, we see that we need to take our hat off to the National Library. These excellent, hard-working Kiwis are world leaders in their field. It is not a huge proportion of its income that deals with digitisation, but they are leaders in their field already. If it ain\u2019t broke, let us not try to fix it. I am a fan of digitisation personally. I think we should be digitising as much as we can. But that is not the major rationale for literally pulling an independent department and having it taken over by the Department of Internal Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI have heard no reason presented by anyone as to why digitisation needs to be in conglomerated departments. Already the National Library is sharing information with things like the EPIC database and the Matapihi website. It is working with other Government departments in backroom service provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to digitisation, the key issue, like many things in life, simply comes down to cold, hard cash. If we want to see more digitisation of our national treasures in New Zealand, this Government needs to put more cash into it. It cannot do it on the cheap. It is not just a convenient way of looking like we are acting. If it is serious about it, it needs to put in more cash, not shuffle the deckchairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn terms of our overseas image, this bill is taking us backwards. A third-tier position for our National Librarian is not best practice. The Library and Information Association of New Zealand said that we risk \u201Closing standing as a major culture and heritage organisation for New Zealand.\u201D, which will have impacts nationally and internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhy are we doing this? Ultimately, it is all because we want to have fewer Government departments to remember. It is all about trimming the State sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2def96066e4a43b934bcc3931dda89\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Slash-and-burn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fca6c900d54fcc9612196747e62c0f\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: It is about slashing and burning. Dr Don Gilling pointed out that 28 departments and programmes out of 69 that were funded in the last financial year are smaller than the National Library, and 16 are smaller than Archives New Zealand. The fact that those departments are small is not a robust argument for their being taken over by this new super-department, the Department of Internal Affairs. I tell those 16 and 28 smaller departments to watch out, because Steven Joyce is coming. Ultimately, we might have one super-department under Minister Steven Joyce. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00229e558e6fe63942b1b9c8a719c23873f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e558e6fe63942b1b9c8a719c23873f7\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It has been interesting to hear the debate this morning. I think it is worthy that I make a contribution at this stage. Importantly, I have had 18 months in this role. There are real synergies between the three departments. We have heard a lot of political rhetoric, and I want to address that this morning. There is a really strong focus with these three departments, the Department of Internal Affairs, the National Library, and Archives New Zealand, to get more information online and more accessible to every New Zealander. Just this week the Government announced all those communities that will benefit from the roll-out of the $1.5 billion ultra-fast broadband. That is really positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI will focus on Part 2 of the bill, which involves the National Library. It has a wealth of material online. The Appendices to the Journals from Parliament are now online, dating back to the 1860s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe changes to this bill are very minimal and technical. It preserves the cultural and institutional capability of both departments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b0eded34d048c9bd3019bad586c339\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a major culture shift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222092b16f5f0a4571b688a6c911bdb38d\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that the Hon Steve Chadwick interjects that it does not. I would like to ask Steve Chadwick why Labour, in the 9 years it was in power, did not address the terrible issues to do with the National Library\u2019s leaking roof. It took this Government to come in and invest $52 million. In the first couple of weeks of becoming a Minister, I went for a tour of the National Library, and there was a hosepipe coming out of the roof and into a bucket. So here we have members of the previous Labour Government banging on during the Committee stage about the importance of these cultural institutions, yet they did nothing in the 9 years they were awash with cash in terms of fixing up the library so that it had a decent roof on it, so that important collections like the Alexander Turnbull Library collection would not rot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis Government has made a very valuable contribution over the road to the important rejuvenation project of the National Library. The other thing that is really important is that in this Budget we have been able to roll out $12.6 million into a digital archive\u2014and that is new money, and it is really, really important. It has been very well received by the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other thing worth noting is that Mr Robertson, in his address, said that the savings could be only about $165,000 per year. In actual fact, as I look at the out-years, the information I have says that the savings will be up around $1.5 million per year. So once again, I am not sure where Mr Robertson gets his comments from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other point\u2014and I have heard quite a bit of rhetoric about \u201Cthird-tier\u201D\u2014that it is important to realise is that within the Department of Internal Affairs is an example of a third-tier manager who employs 205 people; it is the person in charge of the passport operation. That person employs 205 people, and creates and generates third-party revenues of about $55 million. The performance of the New Zealand Passports Office, and New Zealand\u2019s visa-free status across 50 countries, indicates a classic example of someone who is performing very well in a third-tier role and has the support of the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other important point I make is that Mr Robertson said he was in favour of combining back-office functions and cost savings. That is very, very important, and I am pleased that Mr Robertson agrees with the thrust of this bill. He has publicly stated in the House today that he supports combining back-office functions and cost savings, which is great. Mrs Chadwick talked about it becoming a superministry. When Mr Robertson was publicly saying in March that there was going to be a big combined department of information, he was saying that it was way too radical. But now he is saying that we should not be touching it at all. So I think there is quite a bit of confusion on that side of the House. On the one hand, they are saying that what Stevie Chadwick was proposing before would have been way too radical; and now, on the other hand, the opponents of the bill are saying that we should not be touching these important cultural institutions, at all. So I look forward to hearing more debate on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is appropriate while I am on my feet to talk about the Crown Law opinion, which was released following the waiving of legal privilege by the Attorney-General. I thank the Attorney-General for releasing it. Let us put the facts on the table. I am interested to hear our opponents negate this important Crown Law opinion. The Crown Law document states: \u201CIn our opinion, the Bill: \u2026 Preserves the current statutory purposes of the National Library and Archives New Zealand; \u2026 Makes no change to the current level of statutory independence enjoyed by the National Librarian; \u2026 Increases the level of statutory independence enjoyed by the Chief Archivist;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ddf68f95c3a49f59668dc3516137d71\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: He has to table it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364cb9605fad4648836e45980102bf40\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: It is publicly available. It goes on to state that \u201Cthe Chief Archivist and the National Librarian are carrying out their roles and functions independently, to the extent that those roles are legally required to be carried out independently. It would not be lawful for the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs to interfere with the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian\u2019s performance of their statutory duties,\u201D. It states that the bill also \u201CPreserves the role and function of the Alexander Turnbull Library as set out in the current legislation; and \u2026 Preserves the role and function of the statutory advisory groups prescribed by the National Library Act and the Public Records Act\u201D. The National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Act 2003 and the Public Records Act 2005, which National supported, carry on. \u201CIn short,\u201D this Crown Law opinion states, \u201Cthe changes to the National Library Act and the Public Records Act seem entirely limited to dealing with the fact that the National Library and Archives New Zealand would cease to be separate departments of the Crown and would become part of the Department of Internal Affairs.\u201D That is a very powerful Crown Law opinion, and I look forward to hearing members opposite trying to negate this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a59b091aea724c9e8fdb6cb502b4a704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a59b091aea724c9e8fdb6cb502b4a704\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The Minister of Internal Affairs has been quoting at some length from an official document, and I request that he table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceff51611956496696172cd6ec9da70e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it an official document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228140b1b73a9e4c689aae0409dd6a71a5\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: It is publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002216766da6e644402694ed7b759e47664f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216766da6e644402694ed7b759e47664f\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E In responding to the comments made on the other side of the Chamber, I note that the Minister made clear in his speech that it was a public document, in the public domain. In that regard, there is no need for him to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223ed9537d45a14981bf5ec29b8c2ae761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ed9537d45a14981bf5ec29b8c2ae761\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E As far as I am aware the point made by the senior Government whip is wholly irrelevant. If the Minister was quoting from an official document in this Chamber, he needs to table it\u2014that is what the Standing Orders state.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221648c8758ac54471b2ecab9a369c256b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Standing Order 367 states: \u201CWhenever a Minister quotes from a document relating to public affairs a member may, on a point of order, require the Minister to table the document. The Minister must then table the document unless it is of a confidential nature.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe314ae79e141af8598161bea39eb3f\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: It is publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd91c9f2b5514dd0b7a7ebcc25c105b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd91c9f2b5514dd0b7a7ebcc25c105b9\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. That does not matter. You have read out the Standing Order, and I followed the process in that Standing Order. I requested that the Minister table the document. The question of whether the document is already in the public arena is completely irrelevant, and he is in fact challenging your ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213225f89e11416c92452bdb60149e8d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the Minister was challenging my ruling. He was simply saying that the document is publicly available. I have had an indication from the Minister that he is willing to table the document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00222325714fcf7b409e9eeb18e1950f9406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222325714fcf7b409e9eeb18e1950f9406\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022607de9554d0f457fbabba0546acdcec4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t need to seek leave; you just table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7b184891624841a3713b88b3ba5fb1\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EDocument laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002260823d39f364428aba4acd0935beb5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260823d39f364428aba4acd0935beb5b2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister in the chair, Nathan Guy, for taking a call. He went to great lengths to read out a Crown Law opinion stating that the State Sector Management Bill will not affect the independence of the National Library and will not prevent the independent voice of the National Library and the National Librarian from being heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022221dd437bd7f46069a0598618d2f7274\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt my colleague. The document that Minister Guy quoted from earlier has been tabled\u2014I am observing the proceedings\u2014but it has not been stamped. My colleague has approached the Table to try to get a copy of it, and I now see a twink pen or a whitener being handed to the Minister to remove things from the document, which has already been tabled. That document is now the property of the Committee and of the House, not of the Minister. The idea that it would be tampered with after it has been tabled and not yet stamped is very concerning. It is now the Committee\u2019s property. A member of the Committee wants to look at it immediately, and it should be available to the Committee member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b45e6890744f709600fc4da8e5be2c\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we need an independent archivist!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd2c058bf3947129a03638546d1eadf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that Parliament does have an independent archivist; it is the Clerk\u2019s Office. The document has been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228634a2caf2084190a330294ae458fbf8\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228201c2a2c24d48de80619fe9102caa7a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I trust this is a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceac427873624750a1f06f9b240a0d0d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It is. I think it is appropriate, given what has just been said, that we get an assurance from the Minister that the document he has tabled, in the interim between it going to the Clerk and being stamped, has not been altered or tampered with in any way. I would like an assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a08819da8847c2ab82e18516a8d11f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The member could have taken that from my statement before that the document has been tabled. If the member is saying that I am telling him that a different document has been tabled, then that is a reflection on the Chair. I have confirmed to the Committee that the document has been tabled, and the member should accept that at its word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9749da204cb4fe8a4cbb35bdafaa851\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I give you an absolute assurance that I was not doing what you were suggesting. I was not questioning your word. I was simply asking, given that twink bottles were floating around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1f125f12e6488e8d58d7e0f2a68030\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member wish to withdraw and apologise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f657610fd7d4baaad435791747175d9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I never question your integrity; I just wanted that assurance from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a896f7ce9834f63bc14297cbb354c8b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. You have that assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e3cc1b9367410baa0e9b07e1feb78a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think the problem is that some members could not see the document as it went across to the Clerk, whereas I did and I can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02cddbc9b5b4550bd858ff7dd9db882\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The matter has been dealt with. I have now given the Committee three assurances that it is the same document. I do not need to know whether members are confused, disorientated, or cannot figure out whether it is Thursday or Saturday. None of that is relevant. The document has been tabled. Everybody is satisfied, honour is restored, and that is the end of the matter. If I hear another point or order of this matter I will\u2014[Interruption] No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679ebac73aad449083be20a3cab927e7\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That was an example, if there ever was one, of why we need an independent archivist. We want to avoid this kind of situation. The Minister in the chair is the Minister responsible for the National Library and Archives New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149440d5b9134637a57f5870c9c63d16\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMr Twink.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfb1758084d4ab3a9e9a5f26aec8f03\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, \u201CMr Twink.\u201D We are only in the Committee stage of the bill that seeks to bring together Archives New Zealand and the National Library and put them into the Department of Internal Affairs, and already serious questions are being raised about the independence of the process and whether important Government documents have been tampered with. If we cannot get through the Committee of the whole House feeling assured that there will not be any political interference, what will it be like when we merge the two entities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to comment on the Minister\u2019s contribution. He read out the Crown Law opinion that the provisions in Part 2 will not have any impact on the functioning of the National Library. Of course, that was the case back when these two entities used to be together in the 1990s. If the Minister would get out of his ivory tower and talk to the people who work in the National Library, they would tell him that despite the legal situation\u2014and a Crown Law opinion would have said exactly the same thing back then\u2014the reality was that they did struggle in terms of independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe reality was that they struggled to have their voice heard when they were under the Department of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Education. So instead of reading from some piece of paper to make himself feel better\u2014because, legally, Crown Law has said that he should not worry about anything\u2014why does he not talk to the people who worked in that entity the last time it was combined under the Department of Internal Affairs? They will tell him that what he has said in the Chamber today is absolutely not correct. That is why every single submission to the Education and Science Committee opposed this measure. In reality they could not carry out those important constitutional functions of being independent and protecting important public documents when they were subsumed by a big Government department like the Department of Internal Affairs. I think it is very disappointing that the Minister chose to not address those facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI come now to clause 30, which talks about documents being made available for public exhibition. Now that the National Library will be part of the Department of Internal Affairs, I am a little bit concerned, because another group that is covered by the Department of Internal Affairs is the New Zealand Fire Service, and this is a Minister who will not let Opposition MPs visit fire departments without his permission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291c3098d9af047afa6d3347a71218118\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278a35d311bc74166bea516d654945436\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is true. The New Zealand Fire Service is actually quite independent from the Government, except that the Department of Internal Affairs covers the New Zealand Fire Service Commission, which regulates some of the areas of the Fire Service. If this Minister has been stopping Opposition MPs from visiting the Fire Service, what does that mean\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486f3447dbce421f91fb88e00c4e9d95\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the previous Minster did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d2b14ab4fc4ac498e44d59448990fa\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sandra Goudie should take a call instead of screaming across the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat kind of confidence can we have that clause 30 will be adhered to and that the public will have access to all the information in the National Library without ministerial interference when the very Minister who will be in charge of the Department of Internal Affairs and the National Library is a Minister we have to question about whether documents are being tampered with or properly filed with the Clerk? He has also stopped Opposition MPs from visiting fire departments in their own areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1f9ae9a61947d3ba8ae95135f7931f\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He says that\u2019s not true. We need that on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227edd592a164946a283500e2649a0bb04\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister say that that is not true, and that Opposition MPs are allowed to visit fire stations without his approval? He is very quiet now. Can we visit fire stations without the Minister\u2019s approval? Yes? No? Maybe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0ac4d431fc49feb4c015dcc49bc7e9\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: I have a policy. Mr Hipkins knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4bf8be2d34842709aa09e9c058e1721\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he has a policy. Yes, we know; it is that we are not allowed to visit without the Minister\u2019s permission. What does clause 30 mean in terms of ensuring that documents are made available for public exhibition and to members, when the Minister himself has blocked people from visiting other parts of the Department of Internal Affairs, even though he should not have the power to do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI come now to Subpart 2, which is about the transfer of employees of the National Library. The reason I raise this is that in Part 1 there is a lot of information about the transfer of employees to the new Ministry of Science and Innovation. Some very important points were mentioned, such as the fact that they would all go over on existing terms and conditions. It very clearly stated that provisions under the KiwiSaver Act and the Employment Relations Act did not apply to these employees. I am talking about the 90-day right-to-fire period for new employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPart 1, which deals with the merging of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation of Research, Science, and Technology into a new ministry, made it very clear that those employees would not be required to be on a 90-day trial period. They would be deemed to be carrying on their employment. But in Part 2 we do not have those clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPart 2 has one clause on the transfer of employees, whereas Part 1 has pages and pages. I would like to know from the Minister what that means for employees of the National Library when they are transferred over to the Department of Internal Affairs. The Minister has not ruled out those employees suddenly finding themselves on a 90-day right-to-fire probationary period, even though they may have been working with the National Library for more than a decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair to tell us whether the employment of employees transferred from the National Library to the Department of Internal Affairs will be deemed to have been continuous or whether those employees will suddenly find that they are categorised as new employees and that they are on the 90-day right-to-fire probationary period. So will the Minister\u2014hello? No, the Minister is not paying any attention to what members are saying, which is very distressing. Clause 35, in Part 2, is very short when it comes to the transferring of employees. If there is anything urgent about this bill being debated today, on a Saturday, it is that we let the employees of the National Library know whether their employment will be secure under Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn Part 1 it is very clear that employment will be deemed to have been continuous. Employees will continue to have a job, and leading up to Christmas I think it would be particularly nice of the Minister to take a call and clarify that clause 35 covers this and gives those employees certainty that they will still have a job. We are here under urgency, because apparently the merging of these entities is so important that we need to be here on a Saturday. Well, nothing could be more important than clarifying what clause 35 means for the employees of that National Library. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI hope that the Minister will take a call so that those employees can know that they will still have a job leading up to Christmas and that they will not have 3 months of uncertainty, during which time they could be fired for absolutely no reason whatsoever\u2014with no reason having to be given\u2014while at the same we know that the Government is sending a razor gang out there to slash funding in the public sector. So I think the Minister should take a call on that particular part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI come now to clause 24, \u201CNational Librarian\u201D. I know that this is an area that some of my colleagues will pick up on in more detail. Clause 24 has some quite odd wording. As we know, the National Librarian will now be a level 3 manager in the Department of Internal Affairs. So he or she will go from the being the person who runs it to being not even a second-tier manger but a third-tier manager in the Department of Internal Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EClause 24(2) states: \u201CThe National Librarian is the person for the time being appointed to that office\u2026\u201D. That definition jumped out at me. I do not think \u201Cfor the time being\u201D needs to be said, unless it is suggesting that there will be a time when a National Librarian is not employed in that office. I wonder whether this is a little indication about where the role of National Librarian is going. I know that my colleague Jacinda Ardern has more to say about that. The words \u201CThe National Librarian is the person for the time being appointed to that office by the chief executive \u2026\u201D are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beda9681521e4c8988a522dc4b936229\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Kind of like while they feel like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b152407e3944ac5ab69e36b2f19f6b8\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It is like saying: \u201CAt the moment you\u2019re allowed to have this job\u2014for the time being\u2014but don\u2019t get too comfortable because in the future this role may not be there.\u201D That is not the kind of wording I remember seeing for other positions within the public sector. It stands to reason that the National Librarian is the person who is doing the job and that the chief executive appoints him or her. It does not need to be clarified that it is just in the here and now and that he or she should not make any long-term plans. So I would like the Minister in the chair to get up and allay concerns on this side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022dca19b2133f740bd8c8891ce304d074c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dca19b2133f740bd8c8891ce304d074c\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to ask some questions of the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Internal Affairs, with regard to Part 2 of the State Sector Management Bill. I hope he takes the opportunity to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe National Library has the largest collection of M\u0101ori language resources in the country, and although the 2003 State Sector Act is not changed substantially by this bill, the implication is that the organisational change in the bill may have a particular effect on how the National Library and the National Librarian currently operate. Te komiti M\u0101ori was established by the National Librarian in 1996. It advises the National Librarian on specific aspects of the M\u0101ori language collection. Also, there are protocols for donors of collections to the National Library. It is unclear whether the role of te komiti M\u0101ori will be affected by this bill. The concerns I raise are in relation to, specifically, the M\u0101ori collection, and whether the National Librarian will retain the responsibility outlined in the 2003 Act around kaitiakitanga, preservation, and the role of the collection. I also want to ensure that adequate advice will be given to the National Librarian in carrying out his or her functions, because, as I read the change, the National Librarian will be dropped to a tier 3 type of role. The bill implies that the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs may take on some of the responsibilities with regard to how te komiti M\u0101ori operates, and clarification on that point would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI also understand from the submission that was provided by te komiti M\u0101ori to the chief executive that it too has significant concerns about the way in which the restructure might affect it. Notably, it believes that there could be a risk to the library\u2019s national profile and position as a respected and trusted national institution responsible for the care of documentary and cultural heritage collections. It is also worried that there could be a reduction in the library\u2019s capability and focus to carry out the purposes of the Act as they relate to kaitiakitanga, taonga, and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. Specifically, it could lead to an overall diminishing of current levels of effective library services to M\u0101ori and partnerships with M\u0101ori, as these aspects are integral to providing quality librarianship and information management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI suspect that those comments were made because if a value-for-money exercise is being undertaken across the whole of the department, it obviously will have effects across the departments under the umbrella of the Department of Internal Affairs, and could lead, whether directly or indirectly, to a compromising of the emphasis on the M\u0101ori collection, which te komiti M\u0101ori believes should be maintained. People cannot go anywhere else in the world to find a good M\u0101ori language collection except the National Library. Te komiti M\u0101ori wants to be sure that the emphasis and responsibilities outlined in the 2003 Act will be maintained and guaranteed despite the organisational change, yet that is not clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe Minister should take a call on these types of issues, because I believe they are absolutely critical if we want to retain the integrity and esteem of the collections held within the National Library and the way in which they are managed for future generations. I understand from that same submission that there is a review of services to M\u0101ori within the National Library. It would be interesting to see how that review might or might not impact on further changes in this bill, or, indeed, the principal Act. I am sure that the M\u0101ori Party would be concerned about any diminishing of emphasis on the M\u0101ori language collection held by the National Library. It would not, as we would not, want to see any diminishing of effort on that front. We believe that the collection is second to none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1171197c8354c9f8071deb302c13000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1171197c8354c9f8071deb302c13000\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very concerned about the role of the Chief Archivist and what the changes in Part 3 will mean for that role. The Chief Archivist will face the same issues as the National Librarian, and I will talk about those in just a moment. The advice that the Education and Science Committee received in the form of submissions from a variety of submitters expressed real concern about the role and independence of the National Librarian and the fact that that was going to be compromised by merging Archives New Zealand and the National Library into the Department of Internal Affairs. I think the critical issue here is whether the Minister of State Services could be seen to exert more influence on the National Librarian under this legislation now that it is part of the Department of Internal Affairs than he would had the National Library remained independent. I think it would be fair to conclude that to be correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have no faith whatsoever that under this Government the independence of the National Librarian will be preserved, because this Government constantly claims that departments are acting independently with no influence from Ministers, but the reality is that that is not the case. We had a very recent example where a Minister effectively told a Government agency not to publicise a transport designation right before a by-election campaign, because he thought that would impact the outcome of the by-election campaign. That department did exactly what the Minister requested. The Minister stood up in this House and said that he did not do that, but the reality is that in the \u201Cnudge nudge, wink wink\u201D way that these things work, what happened was pretty clear. I do not think anybody in this House or any member of the public believed that Minister when he said he had no influence on that matter. With regard to the National Library, the concern is that we will see the same type of thing taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am concerned about the role of the Alexander Turnbull Library and its integration, effectively, with the Department of Internal Affairs. This department runs a huge range of functions that are totally incompatible, let us be frank about that. It goes from censorship to the National Library, to the Fire Service, to civil defence, to local government, and to a whole range of other things. All of those things are within the Department of Internal Affairs. I do not believe that one of the rationales for this move is that it will be more efficient. I simply do not believe that this move will result in any greater efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21c002bb35146a3aabbfd041f6e88e4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ministerial Services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6ee05567694549a4fe7f68946475b3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Ministerial Services fits within the Department of Internal Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b8b628ab2b4ad190bc22295b3a4793\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute conflict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8c5cd0ab6545aaa57c4c8a5a3b487a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There is an absolute conflict there. It does not get much more connected to ministerial operations on a day-to-day basis than the Department of Internal Affairs, which runs individual Ministers\u2019 offices. It will also now have responsibility for the National Library. It is pretty clear that there are some conflicts of interest there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will talk particularly about the Alexander Turnbull Library, because this bill changes the appointment provisions for the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library. That appointment will no longer be made by the National Librarian but by the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. There is no guarantee that the person making the appointment of the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library will have the relevant expertise. Under existing legislation, the National Librarian, who has specialist knowledge and expertise, is guaranteed to make the choice of who will run the Alexander Turnbull Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe custody of the collections of the Alexander Turnbull Library will now reside within the department, instead of within the National Library as a separate department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere was a range of submissions on the issue of the Alexander Turnbull Library, which I think are worth talking about in more detail. Several submitters expressed concern that downgrading the status and identity of the library would damage its national and international reputation. The Alexander Turnbull Library is very widely respected, both nationally and internationally, and its independence is very important. There was a concern that this bill will compromise the intention to maintain the identity and status of the collections of the Alexander Turnbull Library, make it more difficult to obtain funding, compromise the Chief Librarian\u2019s independence, risk a conflict situation if the National Librarian\u2019s recommendation for the appointment of the Chief Librarian was not followed, and so on. Among the submissions there were recommendations to amend the bill to provide for an annual report for the Alexander Turnbull Library and/or the National Library to be tabled in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EUnder the current legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e224fe9a6541308a565b106285cfda\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I will allow Chris Hipkins to continue, as he is in full flight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e77a429417d143c78a28925ad32f25a4\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. It probably will not be another full 5-minute contribution, because I am coming to the conclusion of what I was saying, but one of the concerns\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd9a210facd45c892ff23f9d9e493cf\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Yay!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3fb3ec6b8d24677a5ee07d3edde8887\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That was Sandra Goudie. I like to hear from Sandra Goudie. I would like to hear what she has to say. I am not sure whether she is capable of making a contribution; I am not even sure she knows what the Alexander Turnbull Library actually is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260247053f97c48cab50479da2eec5764\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: A library\u2014a place with books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7cfa4e7920f4dd687c306655d3a5cec\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we definitely will not find Sandra Goudie in it. Under the current legislation, the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library report independently to this House. There is a clear line of accountability and clear reporting directly to this House. That will not be the case under this bill, because it will all be amalgamated within the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 reporting line to the House. One of the things we have seen in recent years is a drive by Government\u2014and I think some of it is actually very justified\u2014to dramatically reduce the volume of information that is reported to the House in terms of statements of intent, annual reports, and so on. What we will see is a much less comprehensive description of the activities of the department coming through, particularly in an environment where the Department of Internal Affairs, which has such a wide array of functions, will be trying to compress those into a concise summary for the House. We will lose a lot of the very valuable detail in terms of the reporting function that the National Library currently undertakes when that change takes place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOther recommendations that have come forth through the submissions included a recommendation for the Chief Librarian to report directly to the Minister\u2014to have in the legislation a clear, direct accountability to the Minister\u2014rather than report through the Chief Executive. In that regard, the amendment put forward by my colleague Grant Robertson to clause 25 basically creates an ability for the National Librarian to advise the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian. It is important to note that this bill does not give the National Librarian by right that ability to directly advise the Minister. So one of the amendments put forward by Grant Robertson\u2014and I think it is a very important one\u2014gives the National Librarian the express power to provide advice directly to the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian. That is very important because it removes that filtered level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Chief Executive will have a range of pressures, one of which will be a resourcing pressure. The National Librarian should be able to go directly to the Minister and say that the Department of Internal Affairs, which the National Library is now part of, is not providing the necessary resources or support to the library in order to carry out its functions. The National Librarian needs to be able to go directly to the Minister and say that, but this legislation, as put forward by the Government, does not provide that opportunity. The amendment to clause 25 set out by Grant Robertson gives the National Librarian that power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe amendment would add a new clause 25(5). It states: \u201CIn exercising the functions of the National Librarian under this section the National Librarian shall not be responsible to the chief executive but shall act independently.\u201D I think that is incredibly important. The independence of this role is the primary concern of the Labour Opposition in our contributions to this debate. This bill waters down the National Librarian\u2019s independence and makes the National Librarian a third-tier manager subordinate to the chief executive. The National Librarian will be subordinate not just to the chief executive; there will be another person between the National Librarian and the chief executive and the Minister. The National Librarian is going from having a direct relationship with a Minister of the Crown to having further layers of bureaucracy ahead of him or her. That raises real concerns, given the significance of the role of the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce442148dbd47c1b49119972606f9ed\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think Brendan Boyle wanted it. He put it up in a way which is really impossible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575e2a561d7f46e4802a995c1716708a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly not sure that Brendan Boyle wanted this responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe second amendment put forward by Grant Robertson, to insert new clause 29A, relates to annual reports. It places an obligation on the National Librarian to \u201Cprepare, publish and present an annual report to the Minister for tabling in Parliament \u2026\u201D. Again, that function has been removed by this legislation. Basically, it means that the reporting function for the National Library will be subsumed within the Department of Internal Affairs, so this House will not have access to the volume of information about the activities of the National Library that it has been used to getting. This amendment put forward by Grant Robertson reinstates some of that reporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04e686543fc4130a5ac7b69f96642ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04e686543fc4130a5ac7b69f96642ae\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u002232995bfce8fd4df995590f69072991a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232995bfce8fd4df995590f69072991a6\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from where Chris Hipkins just left off, and I will comment particularly on the contribution made by the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nathan Guy. When the Minister spoke earlier, I anticipated a solid reasoning of why this amalgamation would make a real difference, and that did not happen. What I did hear was that he was unable to provide any assurance to us that attending or visiting fire stations around the country would be able to happen freely, but he certainly did not give a good interpretation of why this legislation is important. Why we are sitting here, under urgency on a Saturday, to listen to that? Members talked about whether it would be a topic of conversations around barbecues over the next few weeks; I think it actually will be. I think it will be used as an example of what this Government proposes to do and what it is actually doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will go back to one thing that the Minister raised, which was the issue of new technology. When we were listening in the Education and Science Committee, this issue came up over and over again as a vindication of why this legislation had to go through. It is an information technology - driven rationale. There is no other rationale that we could come to, to understand why on earth this is being done, except for the fact that there might be some sort of ideological reason why this might happen. We could pick on librarians, and they are unlikely to fight back. Librarians can be bullied, and they are not likely to march on Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIndependence, as Chris Hipkins was talking about before he sat down, is indeed compromised by this legislation. It could not not be compromised. I want to look at the part of the bill that covers independence in reporting. The bill changes the status of the National Librarian from chief executive to employee. There is a feeling that by making this person, the head of the National Library, a third-tier employee of the Department of Internal Affairs, a department that, as we have heard, has massive amounts of other responsibilities\u2014it is a grab bag of just about everything in Government that does not fit into a particular ministry\u2014somehow this employee will have exactly the same ability to influence and maintain the independence of the National Library as happened before. It is simply not the case. There were 31 submitters who appeared before the select committee, and 100 percent of those submissions\u2014and Colin King knows this for a fact, because he was sitting there and listening as well; he is nodding his head\u2014opposed this change. They basically centred their objections on the fact that the chief executive has been relegated to being an employee and the role will be diluted by organisational layers, the National Librarian will lose the right to the Minister, and the National Librarian\u2019s influence and independence will be adversely affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EMr Nathan Guy has put before us the Crown Law report, which we had not seen previously, along with a bottle of white-out\u2014talk about a lack of ability\u2014and he read selectively from that report. But the bottom line is that if we submerge the head of a department into the third level of a hierarchy and then expect that person to operate with the same independence as he or she did beforehand, we are dreaming; we are completely dreaming. There is no way that bureaucracies operate like that; anybody who has been in a bureaucracy knows that. The National Librarian of course will have to report up the chain of command. Of course the National Librarian will not have the same ability to exercise independence as he or she did previously. Of course the National Librarian will not be able to assure New Zealanders that that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00223682016ae3994c9fbb1baa295f7888f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223682016ae3994c9fbb1baa295f7888f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002247ba365cc3b641019ff6798191285a4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ba365cc3b641019ff6798191285a4b\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to take my first call on the State Sector Management Bill, and in particular on Part 2. I felt prompted to speak on this bill after hearing the contribution of the Minister of Internal Affairs, Nathan Guy. For those members who were not here at that time, I say that I was listening intently because I was seeking the purpose of the bill generally, and in particular the purpose of this significant part\u2014Part 2. I did not get any answers, other than that, apparently, we are making this significant merger because the Minister went on a tour of the National Library and saw a leak in the roof. Apparently that is the reason we are now merging the National Library into the Department of Internal Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe also heard from the Minister, and this is something that vexed me greatly, the claim that the previous Labour Government had somehow run the National Library and Archives New Zealand into the ground. I make the following point: I was not a member of the Education and Science Committee, which heard the submissions on this bill, but I do note, as reported in the select committee\u2019s report, that one submitter who worked in this area noted that \u201CThe past management of the archives function\u2026has an unfortunate history, characterised by arrested development, lack of resourcing, poor understanding, litigation, rancour, and distrust.\u201D Another submitter commented that \u201CThousands of unique items that have relevance today have been lost by fire, water, vermin, and indifference.\u201D I think that was both a metaphorical and a literal reference, and it came directly from a submitter who was referring to the 1990s\u2014the point when, as I understand it, we last had a go at merging these functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister, given that in his first attempt he did not submit to the Committee why we are making this merger, whether he could articulate that again for the benefit of the Committee. At the moment I see no specific point relating to those functions that demonstrates this need. In fact, in seeking the reason why this might be occurring, I felt inclined to draw on some other experience that I have had as a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee. We have recently undergone a similar consolidation through the Legal Services Agency. At least in that case it came off the back of a report by Dame Margaret Bazley, proving that we probably needed to make significant changes in this area, and that is where this consolidation occurred. Our committee was at great pains to ensure that in doing so we maintained the independence of office that was needed to maintain the public confidence in the Legal Services Agency as it stood. I do not feel I have the same confidence in the way that this merger is taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAs has already been remarked, the National Librarian will be a mere third-tier manager within the Department of Internal Affairs. We need to understand what that will mean at a functional level in terms of the reporting requirements of the National Librarian directly to Parliament. As a third-tier manager, experience holds that when that individual comes to a select committee he or she is unlikely even to necessarily have his or her own hearing. I ask the Minister whether members of Parliament will have the ability to question and cross-examine the National Librarian directly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503f029fd0684d88a0032121016248da\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: As they can now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc9ab6d2a534a1a9cb18ef8a6e15d45\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as they can currently. I ask the Minister whether members of Parliament will have the ability to directly question the National Librarian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere is no response from the Minister, but I can see by the small glint in his facial expression that he has registered my question. I hope that at some time he can clarify that for us. Perhaps he could do it in the next part, when we talk about the same issue with the Chief Archivist. That is one of the most important abilities we can maintain; not only their ability to report directly to Parliament but our ability as members of Parliament to directly question them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI have a second question for the Minister, which comes under section 9A, inserted by clause 26. I would be interested to hear some explanation from the Minister on where he anticipates the National Librarian, as a mere third-tier manager, can use these quite strong delegation powers that have been gifted to him or her. Section 9A sets out what a delegation must include.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002274fd24152ef44411bc8a40414c850ecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274fd24152ef44411bc8a40414c850ecc\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e95b22d3d55e476ba7848f0e33e1c295\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000424\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 25 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000425\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000426\u0022\u003E(4)\tSection 9 is amended by adding the following subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000427\u0022\u003E\u201C(3A)\tWithout limiting section 8 the National Librarian may from time to time on the National Librarian\u2019s own initiative or at the request of the Minister\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000428\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tadvise the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000429\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\treport to the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e877ded4735343ac9f3a1762fac51848\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000430\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 25 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000431\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000432\u0022\u003E(4)\tSection 9 is amended by inserting the following subsections:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000433\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tIn exercising the functions of the National Librarian under this section the National Librarian shall not be responsible to the chief executive but shall act independently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000434\u0022\u003E\u201C(6)\tNothing in subsection (5) of this section limits the responsibility of the National Librarian to the chief executive for the efficient, effective and economical management of the activities of the National Librarian.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229e644d64923048b286ae3f981ec7a2e7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000435\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to Part 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000436\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause after clause 29:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000437\u0022\u003E29A\tAnnual reports\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000438\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe National Librarian has obligation to prepare, publish and present an annual report to the Minister for tabling in Parliament on the National Library and the general administration of this Act in conformity with section 43 and 44 of the Public Finance Act 1989.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000439\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe Chief Librarian of Alexander Turnbull Library has obligation to prepare, publish and present an annual report to the Minister for tabling in Parliament on Alexander Turnbull Library and the general administration of this Act in conformity with sections 43 and 44 of the Public Finance Act 1989.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000440\u0022\u003E(3)\tAll costs associated with the preparation and publishing of annual reports by the National Librarian and the Chief Librarian of Alexander Turnbull Library must be provided for from Department of Internal Affairs funding outside of the National Library\u2019s and Alexander Turnbull Library\u2019s budgets.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9e8876bfa644678ad9c30cb75cd5b47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000441\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 189 in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ade57bd7c23441a79a30354e3619a888\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d49594a3db1c422288c16699895b58c8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267e76b92744c4ddcb927e872a7c09cd9\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Public Records Act 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a42736a8a87742eb88e097eea933b52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a42736a8a87742eb88e097eea933b52b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694cf35c00304d5abe8770c96252ba6e\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt; I was waiting for the end of the voting. I seek leave to amend a vote from last night on the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill vote. We cast two votes in favour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9153a12933426ca0d22f0b6a159a3d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will have to do that in the House, and not in the Committee, because that was a decision of the House and not of the Committee. You will have to do that in the House. I have called Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d043257ae744de9a88273ba1d0d39fb\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite interested to know how the vote is going to change, actually, because it was an interesting vote by the ACT Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe now move on to Part 3 of this State Sector Management Bill, which deals with Archives New Zealand\u2019s merger into the Department of Internal Affairs. This is a very significant change. I am not belittling the change in relation to the National Library; as speakers on this side of the Chamber have argued, we regard the reduction in the independence and the amount of information and knowledge we will have about the National Library to be a significant matter. But the role of Archives New Zealand, constitutionally, in New Zealand is a very important matter. I will take a little bit of time in this first call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f3c91d25794520b5c970ad6aa88b6e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The first of many!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221727ae1c999749b0baf04ede78df09c3\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the first of many, that is correct\u2014to talk about the overall significance of Archives New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EArchives in any country provide the ultimate accountability for Government, because we know that records will be retained and records will be maintained and protected. Not only that but under our system Archives New Zealand has the role of ensuring that departments deposit documents, and do not destroy them. In fact, that is the key reason the Chief Archivist needs independence, because the Chief Archivist is the person who can go to another Government department and demand its records be deposited. He or she has that ability; he or she has that statutory role. The question can very quickly be raised, once one makes the Chief Archivist a third-tier manager at the Department of Internal Affairs as to what happens when he or she has to go to the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014his or her boss\u2014to say: \u201CYou have to deposit that document. That document must be deposited.\u201D? Immediately we run into the problem of this part of the bill, because the role of Archives New Zealand is core in ensuring that our democracy is open and transparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the Education and Science Committee the Human Rights Commission came to us, and its officials wrote a submission for us in which they talked about the important constitutional role of preserving Crown records. That is not done just for historians; as they said, it is done, actually, for the accountability of our Government over the full term of those Governments. If people want practical examples of why that is important or significant, I give the examples of every single Treaty claim, and every time we dig in a street in Aro Valley in Wellington and need to know where the power cables might be. Actually, that example was an interesting case when some privatisation took place; it was interesting to learn just how much information there was. If we have that information, we have it because we have good records and we have good archives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have had a bit of discussion during this debate about what happened in the 1990s when Archives New Zealand was part of the Department of Internal Affairs. I will read out to members a letter sent to somebody on 13 June 2001 by the Hon Matt Robson. He was writing to somebody who was looking for some information with regard to a ministerial inquiry. I will read the second paragraph, in which Mr Robson states: \u201CI have caused inquiries to be made of the tribunal\u2019s division of the Department for Courts. Unfortunately, I have discovered that apart from the committee\u2019s report, all documents relating to the inquiry, including the submissions, were destroyed in 1999. It appears that the destruction of these documents was inadvertent.\u201D That is the kind of thing people are concerned about. That is the kind of thing that drove former Chief Archivists to come to us at the select committee and say: \u201CThis is not some theoretical exercise. This happened in the 1990s in New Zealand, and it was an unmitigated disaster.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Jacinda Ardern said before, one submitter noted that important historical records were lost to \u201Cvermin and indifference\u201D. There is the apocryphal story about what happened to the copy of the Treaty of Waitangi when that was involved in Archives New Zealand becoming part of the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 \u201Cimportant historical records\u201D. These things are simply not right in a good-quality democracy. In 1997 Sir Geoffrey Palmer said: \u201Cit is a core responsibility of the State to maintain a proper and impartial record of the decisions and activities of the New Zealand Government. Not only are such records essential nourishment to the intellectual life of New Zealand, they are an important instrument in the accountability of governments.\u201D He went on to say that \u201Cthe existence of a public record on every government exerts a salutary and beneficial effect on Ministers and that effect could be undermined if the strength and integrity of the archive system in New Zealand is diminished\u201D. My colleague Trevor Mallard, from his experience, certainly knows about that. The Minister in the chair, Nathan Guy\u2014with his twink bottle\u2014might deserve to bear that in mind, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Human Rights Commission commented on this bill: \u201CBy integrating Archives New Zealand into the DIA and subjugating the agency to officials superior to a downgraded CA, the Bill risks undermining the independence of the CA and severely impinges on New Zealand\u2019s constitutional and democratic protections.\u201D That is it. That is what we are debating today: the undermining of our constitutional and democratic protections through this merger. It has been so glibly done, I might add. We have heard so little from the Government about what really justifies these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ELabour again has a number of amendments that we have put up on Part 3 to try to mitigate some of the worst aspects of this bill. We make it absolutely clear that when Labour is returned to Government we will be seeking to give Archives New Zealand and the Chief Archivist the independence that they need for reasons of democratic and constitutional infrastructure, as we have said before. It may be that consideration could be given to a model beyond a department, such as a Crown entity model or an Officer of Parliament model. We are open to those suggestions, but we underline our view that the critical role of an independent Chief Archivist must be protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EQuite simply, this bill does not do that. The Chief Archivist will become an employee of the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. The Chief Archivist will have no right of access to the Minister and no independent reporting right to the Parliament. This bill diminishes the rights, independence, and influence of the Chief Archivist. The Crown Law opinion, which Mr Guy had to have torn from his hands, emphasises that point in many ways. It has looked at the legal aspects of the merger, and did that completely without the context of the Department of Internal\u2019s Affairs structure, which is actually the practical way that the merger will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENo doubt, if Mr Guy chooses to take a call, he will tell us that the provisions in Part 3 do enough to ensure the independence of the Chief Archivist. However, as David Shearer said earlier, every submitter who came to the Education and Science Committee told us that they did not believe that that was possible. The two former Chief Archivists who came before the committee gave incredibly persuasive submissions about their experiences under a regime where they were part of the Department of Internal Affairs. They said their influence was limited, their time was taken up with other matters, and their ability to have archives given some kind of importance was severely diminished alongside the other priorities of the Department of Internal Affairs. Some people do not think these issues are important, but having archives, having good-quality material and systems that hold Governments accountable, is what holds our democracy together. Part 3 undermines that, because the reasoning behind this merger has nothing to do with good-quality archives; it has to do with the Minister\u2019s belief\u2014influenced by officials, no doubt\u2014that digitalisation is all that matters. He believes that that project is all that matters, and that there will be fewer departments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen the merger was announced on 18 March, I began a process to request information under the Official Information Act to see the justification for it. It is quite ironic that I had to go to the Ombudsman on appeal\u2014twice\u2014to get the information. Until today I had not seen the Crown Law opinion that was referred to earlier, because the Minister of State Services\u2014more than the Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand, who is also the Minister responsible for National Library, and did provide some information\u2014made sure that that information was withheld. The information was withheld because officials in the National Library, Archives New Zealand, and elsewhere knew that this merger was not the right thing to do. They knew that this was wrong, because in the 1990s they seen the experience. They had been there and done that. Two former Chief Archivists also told the select committee that in the 1990s some Chief Executives of the Department of Internal Affairs were very helpful and had tried their best; others had had not. There were others\u2014and one in particular\u2014who had a different agenda, which was actually about whether the Archives could in fact be run privately. I am sure that that agenda could come back one day. When Chief Archivists and Archives New Zealand staff get in a situation where the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs has a completely different agenda, then that is a very unfortunate thing. Part 3 is a very, very bad part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022535eb5c85adc425bbba615619a3ef8d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022535eb5c85adc425bbba615619a3ef8d6\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In my second reading speech I talked about my adventure to the national archives, around the corner from Parliament, and about some of the documents I had seen. I tell the Committee that I got to see some wonderful documents of our history. I saw police records from the Wairau Affair. I saw a wanted poster of Hone Heke, which had been found, literally between the pages of another book, only weeks before. I saw transcripts from the Parker-Hulme murder case, which was immortalised in the movie Heavenly Creatures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI also saw something that I think is instructive for us today. I found some wonderful photographs of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force in Egypt taken during World War II. A no doubt good-intentioned army soldier had decided to paste all those wonderful pictures into a book, thereby wrecking them. I think that is the metaphor for today. I do not doubt the good intentions of what the Government is trying to do. I do not think it dislikes Archives New Zealand or dislikes the National Library. I think it is going into this merger with good intentions, but I say that we will see bad consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI am a historian by academic training, and those old adages ring true: \u201CKnow your history\u201D; \u201CKnow where you\u2019ve come from to know where you\u2019re going.\u201D The risk is that we will be repeating the mistakes that were made in the 1990s before those departments were separated. We will have to go through a whole process, once again, of disaggregating them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EPart 3 of the bill amends the Public Records Act 2005. We are not talking about a dusty, old collection of papers; we are talking about important taonga\u2014treasures\u2014of our New Zealand culture and our history. We are also talking about important constitutional features of our democracy. I want to re-pose the questions and answers that I heard at the Education and Science Committee from the New Zealand Historical Association. It asked whether the system was broke; the answer was no. It asked whether we were adopting best practice today; the answer was no. It asked whether the bill would take us backwards; the answer was yes. It asked whether there were risks with this bill; the answer was yes. Those risks we are talking about are to the independence of Archives New Zealand, to the great work it is doing, to the safe custody of our national taonga, and to our international image. We are also talking about Te Tiriti o Waitangi impacts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the risks to the independence of Archives New Zealand we see that this bill, firstly, downgrades the Chief Archivist from the position of a chief executive to simply an employee of the Department of Internal Affairs. He or she will be legislatively accountable, yet will have financial, organisational, and authoritative means counting against them, because, basically, the chief executive\u2014a third-tier employee\u2014will have to comply with the culture, the strategic direction, and the financial direction of the Department of Internal Affairs. That is not just an academic debate; the independence of that position will be eroded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Hon Nathan Guy, talked about the Crown Law opinion, but he did not mention how rushed it was. He did not talk about the fact that Archives New Zealand is not like the Passports Office, which he used as an example. We are talking about important constitutional roles in our democracy. The risk is that the chief executive of Archives New Zealand, downgraded to a third-tier official, will have all the burdens of administrative work within the hierarchical structure of the Department of Internal Affairs but will not be able to sit on the executive team, in order to actually make a difference. We are really talking about the worst of both worlds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ESecondly, the select committee made a good change in deleting most of the provisions in clauses 47 to 58, which means public records will be retained in the possession of Archives New Zealand and not by the Department of Internal Affairs. There were legitimate concerns expressed by people who have items in the Archives or who would like to donate items to the Archives in the future. We are talking about differentiated roles between the two different departments being taken over and the Department of Internal Affairs. On the one hand we have the Department of Internal Affairs, which looks after items like censorship; on the other hand, we have the important constitutional role to manage our archives well. As the Lange papers in Archives New Zealand show, or WikiLeaks shows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c182ff7d00473e9e02b29b962e0b58\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but the time has come for the luncheon break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022230ce0b724c349dd85bd10fe3fd5e32f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022230ce0b724c349dd85bd10fe3fd5e32f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I return to Part 3 of the State Sector Management Bill. When I was speaking earlier on, I was speaking more generally about the concern Labour had on a philosophical level about what is happening in Part 3, which undermines the independence and ability of the Chief Archivist to perform his or her core constitutional role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will now refer to specific elements of Part 3. Firstly, I refer to a change that has been made by the Education and Science Committee on the question of Archives New Zealand\u2019s continuing existence in some form or name. Essentially, the bill removed all references to Archives New Zealand because Archives New Zealand as we know it, as a Government entity, will not exist. Archives New Zealand is still the repository for documents\u2014this would continue. A number of submitters raised questions around the ownership and control of documents, and people had concerns that as the bill was drafted, the Department of Internal Affairs rather than Archives New Zealand would have ownership and control of those public documents. Clearly, that concerned a lot of submitters; it was raised by a large number of people. I am pleased to say that the committee was able to make a change, and a large number of clauses have been changed so the phrase \u201CArchives New Zealand\u201D is included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is important because, again, it goes to the heart of the matter of ensuring that there is an independent archive. The absence of that, and the handing over, effectively, of control or ownership of documents to the Department of Internal Affairs raises all those concerns again that it will not be Archives New Zealand that controls these important records but a Government department into which the archive has been subsumed. In that small matter we were able to achieve a change in the Education and Science Committee, but it does not take away from the other matters that we have traversed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EA number of submitters raised important concerns about the way in which the Chief Archivist is appointed and how his or her independence is maintained. The critical change made was that, under this bill, the Chief Archivist can act independently \u201Cin exercising his or her professional judgment;\u201D. Under the previous legislation, the Public Records Act 2005, the Chief Archivist was independent in the discharge of his or her duties and functions. We now have a difference. There is a downgrading, so that rather than the Chief Archivist being responsible for, and having independence in, all of his or her activities, he or she merely has independence in the exercise of his or her professional judgment. The select committee sought clarification from the officials that this really was about ensuring that the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 authority remained totally unchallenged. That is the nub of the problem. In this situation, we need a Chief Archivist who can challenge the authority of the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs where that is necessary. That alteration in terms of the description of the Chief Archivist\u2019s independence is a critical change, and one raised by a large number of submitters, but one that we were not able to resolve satisfactorily in the select committee. In one of my typescript amendments, we are attempting to rectify that situation, and I encourage the Government to ensure that that amendment is passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe relationship between the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs and the Chief Archivist is obviously at the heart of that matter, and, again, it has not been dealt with adequately in the bill. The chief executive will be the employer and the Chief Archivist\u2019s role will be subsumed because of the structure of the State Sector Act. The release of the structural document for the Department of Internal Affairs reconfirmed this and showed that the Chief Archivist will be a third-tier manager, outside the executive leadership team. That is a very important point. The Chief Executive and managers of the Department of Internal Affairs, who will set the strategic direction for the Department of Internal Affairs, will not include the Chief Archivist. We on this side of the Chamber find that simply unacceptable for such a significant constitutional organisation. We would like to see that changed and there are Supplementary Order Papers dealing with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe National Library\u2019s situation is similar. The whole question of reporting has completely changed. Reporting will be via the Department of Internal Affairs. The National Library will report to the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs, and that is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002254b2b0ca98e5439a960179da98fe83d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b2b0ca98e5439a960179da98fe83d1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will carry on from my colleague Grant Robertson, who started the debate after lunch. The Minister in the chair, the Minister of Internal Affairs, made Part 3, which contains the delegations and functions of the Chief Archivist and administrative matters, sound very prosaic, boring, and bureaucratic. But what the Government obviously fails to get is the cultural impact made by Archives New Zealand, and the professionalism of the role of the Chief Archivist, on both central government and local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Chief Archivist is tasked with creating and monitoring standards for both paper and digital records management in central government and local government. That includes deciding what may be disposed of and how records are made open to the public. It is a big power. We have already seen\u2014with the Minister in the chair changing a Crown Law opinion with his twink pen before he was prepared for the Opposition to pick it up\u2014how records can be dealt with by stealth. It is funny that we are now up to the public records part of the debate, when we have just witnessed that activity by the Minister in the chair. We can see how important independence is for the role of the Chief Archivist. Public records should not be altered, and the public has the right to access those records. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI chaired the Health Committee inquiry into agent orange. The select committee asked for the Ministry of Defence papers on where agent orange was used in Viet Nam. We found, with great alarm, that huge chunks of that public record were simply missing. It was annotated and then there were big gaps. That is of huge concern, especially if, when future Governments scrutinise the activities of either the Crown or Crown entities, they find that there has been obvious tampering or loss. That is not good, professional record-keeping. That is a critical role of the Chief Archivist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThat function was one of the reasons why, in May 2000, the previous Labour Government lauded a new dawn for the National Archives. Marian Hobbs said: \u201CMost people know that the Archives preserve historic documents fundamental to our existence as a nation, such as the Treaty of Waitangi and the 1893 Women\u2019s Suffrage Petition. \u2026 the work of the Archives is directed at ensuring that a full and accurate record is kept throughout Government.\u201D That is a critical function of the Archives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn Part 3, we see that even though clause 41 states the Chief Archivist is to act independently, the Chief Archivist will report to the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs, for goodness\u2019 sake! The chief executive is under great financial pressure. I ask how easy it will be for the chief executive to exert pressure on the Chief Archivist to cut corners, and to not properly store and maintain the public record. That is the danger of having a lack of independence for the Chief Archivist through the restructuring that happened after the Minister received the Crown Law opinion. It is a real worry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt is also a real worry for members in the Chamber to see the Minister in the chair twinking away. I found that deeply disturbing. He now has the name \u201CTwinkie\u201D Guy, and that will stick for ever. \u201CI\u2019ve been twinking\u201D, \u201CTwink Big\u201D\u2014there will be talk about the Minister of Internal Affairs \u201Ctwinking big\u201D. You know, it will not go away; we are determined that it will not go away. It becomes part of the legacy of this House\u2019s storytelling now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f04be7da1f49ca8768bd75e76b79bb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a big twinker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a0b311bf71437ca33f30ac29f4cc22\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: He is a big twinker\u2014he is. Members may think the Minister is very prosaic and a solid performer, but the stealth with which he reached for that twink will go down in history as we engage in the debate on Part 3 of the State Sector Management Bill, which is anything other than boring. That is why we are going to keep on with our pressure here, right up to Christmas. Our colleague Grant Robertson has some very good amendments, which I do hope the Minister listens to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00221cf78a8ff73645c7a3f19d1d86398672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cf78a8ff73645c7a3f19d1d86398672\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I join my colleagues in speaking on Part 3 of the State Sector Management Bill, and I wholeheartedly endorse the comments made by Grant Robertson and Steve Chadwick in relation to the importance of Archives New Zealand and our concern about what this legislation will do to the independence and robustness of our information-keeping service. Many of the same concerns applied to the discussion on the National Library. The independence of records and the ability to maintain them so that people can analyse and consider our history to reflect critically on what was or was not done, and to be able to look at, for example, how we are governed, is a fundamental right and a fundamental necessity in a democracy. So we are very concerned about this. Although, as others have said, new section 12 in clause 41 states that the Chief Archivist is to act independently, we do not believe that that goes far enough. The provision is constrained in that it states the Chief Archivist \u201Cmust act independently in exercising his or her professional judgment;\u201D, but we are not confident that that independence of the Chief Archivist will be maintained when the role is that of an employee and a third-tier manager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe people who work in places like Archives New Zealand and the National Library are professional people who are absolutely committed to what they do. We know here, from dealing with the Parliamentary Library, just how committed the people who work in this kind of role are to doing the job properly to ensure that they act in a way that is open and transparent, and that applies equally to those working in Archives New Zealand. Those people do that work because they are passionate about maintaining records and having those records accessible to New Zealanders. The reality is that reducing the independence of the Chief Archivist will have flow-on effects on everybody who works in Archives New Zealand. I would like the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Internal Affairs, to respond to some of the concerns that members on this side of the Chamber are raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EMy colleague Moana Mackey talked in the debate on the previous part about the provisions for the transfer of employees of the National Library and compared them with the transfer provisions in Part 1 for those working in the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology. I want to make similar comments in relation to the transfer of employees of Archives New Zealand. Effectively, this bill is very limited and we want some confidence that the provisions outlined in clause 59, \u201CTransfer of Archives New Zealand employees to department\u201D, actually do cover all the areas covered in the provisions relating to the transfer of Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology staff, which seem to be comprehensive. Those provisions refer to people being covered by their collective employment agreement and ensure continuity of service, and, importantly, make the clear distinction that these people are not new employees for the purposes of either KiwiSaver or, more important, the Employment Relations Act. If that was the case, as Moana Mackey and I have said previously, they could be fired at will, without reason, and without recourse to any justice. We want to know precisely what the provisions in clause 59 do guarantee to people who work in Archives New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI had a quick look at sections 30E, 30F, and 30G in the State Sector Act, which essentially relate to issues such as technical redundancy. In other words, if people are transferred they will not have access to any sort of redundancy payment. I would like the Minister in the chair to come to the party to give us some reassurance on that matter, to perhaps get some advice from officials, and to tell us precisely what that means and give us some confidence that employment rights for these workers are protected. As I say, the people who work at somewhere like Archives New Zealand are professional people who want to do a good job and concentrate on the issue of managing our information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002286db66379d4b475387ec5a9e7043565d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286db66379d4b475387ec5a9e7043565d\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 amends the Public Records Act 2005. In essence it removes the reference to \u201Cchief executive\u201D and replaces it with \u201CChief Archivist\u201D. Therefore, the Chief Archivist can focus purely on his or her pure role of getting on with the functions of the job, which is vitally important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot this afternoon about what occurred in the 1990s. I point out that, moving forward, Parliament addressed that with the Public Records Act 2005, which was supported by the then National Opposition. The 2005 Act focused on the auditing of practice and the independent external parties that the Chief Archivist has to have come in to look at his or her performance. Also, the results of the audit are tabled in Parliament, which is another important point of scrutiny. These provisions further strengthen the independence of the Chief Archivist, as confirmed by the Crown Law opinion. As a result of that, three reports are available to the public. First, the Chief Archivist is responsible for the State record-keeping of public offices; secondly, there is the audit report; and, thirdly, there is the report of the Archives Council. Those three reports will all be available to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe crux of Part 3 is covered in new section 12 in clause 41. It states, for those who are listening, and even for the Opposition, that the Chief Archivist \u201C(a) must act independently in exercising his or her professional judgment; and (b) is not subject to direction from either the Minister or the chief executive.\u201D The Committee should be reassured by that very important point. The provisions have been further strengthened by those who have been involved as part of the select committee process, and I need to acknowledge those people who have been involved in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other important point to make about this is to look at where Chief Archivists operate around the world, and I think it is important to give members some examples. They all have statutory independence. In Australia, the Chief Archivist sits within the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. In Sweden, the Chief Archivist operates under the Ministry of Culture. In the UK, the Chief Archivist operates out of the Ministry of Justice. In Ireland, the Chief Archivist operates out of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport. And, in Canada, it sits within the Canadian heritage portfolio. All operate with statutory independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI also wish to mention, in relation to the focus on digitisation and getting more information online, the $12.6 million that over 4 years will help to store, preserve, and give access to important public records for all New Zealanders. The other significant point is that a recent survey concluded that half of the information that local governments up and down the country have in their records is not now in a form that they can reuse. That is an important point. We have to move forward on these matters while allowing the Chief Archivist to have statutory independence, and that very important provision is covered in new section 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222b5ac85352cb4b5d9ba942b4ce8aaced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b5ac85352cb4b5d9ba942b4ce8aaced\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister in the chair did not put in his statement that many of the functions of the Chief Archivist have been removed. That clause has been taken out, which weakens the role of the Chief Archivist rather than strengthening it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EComing to the point of the international research that he referred to, if we look a little closer at some of that international research, we will find that the safeguards for the archivists in those countries that he mentioned are much more robust than what he is proposing to put forward in the State Sector Management Bill. If he looks at the examples of the UK and the US, he will see that they are, in fact, completely separate. They provide the sorts of safeguards that he believes are in the bill, but, in fact, are not there at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI raise one more procedural matter. Before, when the Minister tabled the Crown Law opinion, he said that it was publicly available. None of us had been able to get hold of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef073350d20e47ed96b57394a48caa29\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on the website\u2014it\u2019s on the Department of Internal Affairs website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226373a5cce2744834b1c9e6f6fd3dfbcc\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not our understanding, I say to the Minister. I think the fact that he brought out the white-out bottle before he started to table the document probably speaks to the fact that this Government has been less than forward with its information. Let us look at people who have tried to put in an Official Information Act request\u2014and I include journalists and even Radio New Zealand, who is here today. Radio New Zealand has been trying to get Official Information Act releases done and has appealed to the Ombudsmen over and over. It has been unsuccessful in most cases. I think the fact that this bill is being discussed today, in light of all that, is testament to where I believe this Government wants us to go in terms of information and its availability to the public: backwards, rather than forwards. It will be more guarded, more protected, and more compromised than it was before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will mention a couple of issues around the independence of Archives New Zealand. I refer to the very good submission that was made by the Human Rights Commission. The Human Rights Commission cautioned against downgrading\u2014that was the term it used\u2014record management, which would call into question New Zealand\u2019s standing as the most transparent and the least corrupt country in the world. In its submission it referred to the Transparency International ranking, which puts New Zealand as the least corrupt country in the world. It believes that this bill would, in fact, compromise that position, and goes on to make a very important point: \u201CThe Bill splits possession and control, awarding possession of Archives to the DIA, while the CA retains control.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThat creates a real conflict of interest, I believe. It creates a conflict of interest between the powers that flow from possession\u2014that is, holding it\u2014and the Chief Archivist acting on the basis of control rights. If we have an archivist at the third tier of any bureaucracy, there is absolutely no way that that person can stand up and independently argue the case to keep that information independent as it should be. I just cannot believe that the Minister can honestly stand up and say that this legislation will move Archives New Zealand forward in New Zealand; indeed, it is moving it backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhen we come to the rationale of why we are here debating this bill under urgency on a Saturday afternoon at 2.25, again, the Minister comes up with no real or good reason for why we are here, except for technology and technological changes. I have been told that the servers and the computing capacity that are under the control of the Department of Internal Affairs are actually at maximum now. We will be bolting on to that the library and the archives in totally different formats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4c0e0088dd146fda2e52365a231fdda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4c0e0088dd146fda2e52365a231fdda\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to the comments made by the Minister in the chair, the Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand. I appreciate his taking a call on Part 3 of the bill. I think we found out what he did in his lunch break: he logged on to Wikipedia and did a search on \u201Carchives\u201D around the world. But he did not actually address any of the questions that we have been raising about Archives New Zealand. Regardless of how they operate in other places in the world\u2014with very different political systems, very different public service set-ups, and very different cultures\u2014he still needs to discuss the concerns we have been raising about Archives New Zealand. It reminded me of a comment that the Minister of Finance and Deputy Prime Minister, Bill English, made earlier this year. He said he thought we could get rid of a whole lot of Government departments because they did not need policy advice; they could just Google it. Government by Google! I wonder whether this is an extension of that: Government by Google and Wikipedia from the Minister responsible for Archives New Zealand, who is overseeing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f43d779ac6e4d319226326d5054d2bc\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: We could let Google do the Archives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267fc1342d2ce4720883b1e4814a510f1\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: We could let Google do the archiving. It would perhaps be helpful. This is very, very telling legislation. In Part 2 the Minister was forced by Standing Orders to table a document that he had been quoting from. Members of the Opposition noticed a bottle of twink appearing after the document had been tabled. We were concerned and we raised concerns about that. My colleague Steve Chadwick very helpfully suggested that perhaps if the Hon Nathan Guy was to write his autobiography\u2014in light of Richard Prebble\u2019s autobiography, I\u2019ve Been Thinking\u2014he could call it I\u2019ve Been Twinking. That is just a little helpful suggestion to the Minister from the Opposition on a Saturday afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the impact of this part on the Chief Archivist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda151ccc636490d8bfde1eae36b76f7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t even agree with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231defe95691b4afeb02fa90eaff91487\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Tau is awake. I welcome Mr Henare back; it is always a pleasure. We notice when we go through the departmental report that the officials are at pains to constantly point out that the Chief Archivist is subordinate to the chief executive\u2014subordinate. This is not just about the Archives simply moving to a new place where they will still be able to operate in the way they always have. It really stands out in the bill and in the departmental report the extent the Government has gone to to point out that the Chief Archivist is subordinate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is ridiculous to suggest that when the Chief Archivist is relegated to the third-tier level of management in the Department of Internal Affairs, he or she will be able to operate the same way he or she already has. Archives will now be subject to budgetary pressures. The Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs gets his budget. He has a lot of different parts in his department that have to be covered, including very worthy areas like the New Zealand Fire Service, Passports, and Births, Deaths and Marriages. The Minister in the chair has given us absolutely no guarantee that money that is currently dedicated for Archives New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa68e5966d5347c2aeede194e5cf5553\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Who cares? Who cares what that member says?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669cd9bf7d804d4d8046eda4ea8d7174\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Tau Henare says that he does not care. We know that National members do not care about the preservation of documents for the future. They constantly try to rewrite history every day in this House. It would probably help them if the documents that prove that they are wrong were no longer in the public arena. I understand why Mr Henare would be pleased to see Archives New Zealand destroyed, because he has had a very colourful political history, jumping from political party to political party. He would probably quite like it if all those documents disappeared. He would probably also like it if all the documents showing that he was the worst union organiser in the history of the universe disappeared from the public arena. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe new Chief Archivist will be subordinate to the Chief Executive. He or she will very, very definitely face budgetary pressures and cuts now that he or she is in a department where he or she has to share resources, and that will be damaging for Archives New Zealand. The other point, of course, is that now Archives will no longer present an annual report to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d45ba0f07c4303a89a82cdf84b218a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, wow!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e049188fd44f5c9ef531c35e4f6cc2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Henare has never liked having to do any work at a select committee, so he is probably hoping that this means a little bit less work for the Government. But the fact is that the financial review process is very important. It has been one of the ways in which we have been able to follow the progress of Archives and the National Library, which we discussed in the debate on Part 2. What did we learn from that financial review process? These are incredibly well-run organisations. They are efficient, they get top marks across the board, and there is no mischief that needs to be solved in Part 3 by destroying the Archives, which again begs the question of why we are here in urgency on a Saturday passing legislation that fixes nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002253f6381831c54eddbdabc78f9708a7b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f6381831c54eddbdabc78f9708a7b9\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate very much the opportunity to take my first call on the State Sector Management Bill on Saturday afternoon at 2.30. We will be on this bill for some time, I think; there is a lot to talk about too. I am sure that Mr Henare will make a contribution. He will get on his feet and make a 5-minute contribution because he obviously feels so passionately about this legislation, although I suspect that those opposite will continue to sit in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIn addressing Part 3 I say that I have been listening to the debate on this bill, and I have been becoming increasingly concerned about what is happening to the independence of our National Library and our Archives New Zealand. They really are important; in many ways they define us as a people. They protect our democracy, our history, and, of course, the accountability of the Government\u2014a very, very important matter. But we are seeing that this Government\u2019s preparedness to be accountable is being washed away by every session we have in urgency. No one is allowed to come along and say what they think. No, the Government does not want to hear from people. It does not want to go through the process, and actually I am really worried about that, because I do not ever want to see a situation exist where those in power write our history or influence it. We have seen that happen in history, and we do not want to have that happen in New Zealand. But this could be a key step towards it, and I am very worried about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EArchives New Zealand and our National Library are part of our collective memory as a nation. I was looking at what is in the Archives; for the purposes of listeners, I tell them that I think the Archives are worth going through. What are we talking about there? We are not talking about a few dusty old books locked away in a couple of rooms; we are talking about over 96 kilometres of archives, 21,500 motion picture reels, and over 5 million records. They are described on Archway, which is the main online website finding aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EArchives New Zealand also holds our founding document\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi. It holds our founding document\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d38bbf7b2d8747e0a8f772fb23f7fa50\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Damaged when the DIA had it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e346421400c8419c9f7e8da22a2cf0cb\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It was damaged when it was last under the auspices of the Department of Internal Affairs. Archives New Zealand also holds the Declaration of Independence of the northern chiefs. I would have thought that the M\u0101ori Party would be really concerned about the possible damage that could be done to that document, and the interference that could go on, if, for example, the Government pretended that we had never had it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f505578a03034f17a5904e89463a604a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They might twink it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a52766e9a5b47609c7e727bf40c1edd\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they could twink it out. The \u201CMinister for Twinking\u201D could just twink it out. That is right. The Archives hold the women\u2019s suffrage petition from 1893. That is really, really important, but of course that could be twinked out as well, could it not? We could pretend, and just go back to saying that we did not want women to have the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI noticed that one of the really interesting collections on display at the moment at Archives New Zealand is called \u201CWalter\u2019s World\u201D. Mr Nash, that wonderful Labour member, would be interested in this, because it is about his great-grandfather. The collection is called \u201CWalter\u2019s World: the Nash Collection\u201D. The Archives website says about the exhibition: \u201CFrom food to fascism, from world travel to World Wars, Walter Nash kept everything. His papers provide an insight into all aspects of the world in which he lived. The extent of the collection is vast\u2014several thousand \u201Cbundles\u201D of papers, photos and other items. They are currently being listed for placement on Archway.\u201D The collection is based on loose themes, it is the Nash collection, and it is about one of the great Labour Prime Ministers of New Zealand. It is an important part of our history, a really important part of our history, on display at Archives New Zealand, along with many, many other really important collections. As I said, they are part of our collective memory as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ERecently a Booker Prize winner said of politicians: \u201CTell me what you read and I will understand what you know.\u201D I would love to know what the Minister reads\u2014I would love to know. He has clearly taken no notice of the very good advice he has had from Archives New Zealand, or the lessons of the 1990s merger. There was a lot of history there, but National took no notice and Labour, of course, had to fix it up. The Minister had to twink out a document that was tabled in the Chamber today because he had not read it properly, so I think we understand what he knows, because we know what he has not read.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am friends with a number of senior people in this field and they are really alarmed at this bill. They are very, very alarmed at the potential of this bill to undermine their independence and their passion, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b69644e8f7482fbbc3e50143e43f65\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Professionalism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223578dc3861254e7f963f729f71768e1b\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014their professionalism; that is right\u2014also their jobs. We know that this move is driven by ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00229298563e9de84b6db34da1ca93a2ebca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229298563e9de84b6db34da1ca93a2ebca\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa6dc553be6545e9bde49c36f652a905\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa6dc553be6545e9bde49c36f652a905\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the State Sector Management Bill and express some concerns that I have about the amalgamation of Archives New Zealand into the Department of Internal Affairs, and in particular the impact that that will have on the independence of the Chief Archivist. We cannot underestimate and understate the importance of the independence of the Chief Archivist, given the importance of the material\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ba0876b0b84936b09829a6bc61a113\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Leave it to Beaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857e8d4030284eada1eec87c45170da3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that is right\u2014that Archives New Zealand looks after. I can recall, for example, only 3 or 4 years ago, following the passing of the late Rt Hon David Lange, that there was a bit of a furore about material held by Archives New Zealand in his name being made public and whether there was adequate process to make sure that we were not releasing some stuff that should not be released. I think some SIS stuff and some Government Communications Security Bureau stuff ended up being released when David Lange\u2019s papers were all released. There was a review, I understand, of some of the practices and processes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31445383a9443d293a4ba688e11a4f3\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He forgot to hand it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244bbbe583a0e4f9ea7641a28e8faf177\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he forgot to hand it back; that is right. There was a review of the practices and processes that Archives New Zealand undertakes in releasing papers following somebody\u2019s demise. One of the things that that underscored, however, was the importance of the independence of Archives New Zealand as the guardians of our nation\u2019s history. After a period of time, people have a right to know what is going on and to have access to whatever is contained within such papers, however inconvenient the content may be. Archives New Zealand records significant volumes of information regarding ministerial decisions, Government decisions, members of Parliament, and public records. That information may become inconvenient over time and Ministers and members of Parliament may not want it to see the light of day. It would be very concerning if we created an environment in which any political pressure could be brought to bear very subtly behind the scenes on the Chief Archivist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe concern I have is that if the role is downgraded to a third-tier manager within the Department of Internal Affairs then, in fact, the diminished significance of that role leaves the Chief Archivist more open to pressure. It leaves the Chief Archivist more open to pressure in a number of respects. First of all, the reporting function to Parliament will be significantly weakened. At the moment, the Chief Archivist has a direct reporting line to the Minister where he or she can advise and meet with the Minister independently. The Chief Archivist has a direct reporting line to this Parliament. The Chief Archivist presents us with an annual report and all of the other documents that an independent agency would present to this Parliament. Much in the same way that I have concerns about the role of the National Librarian being merged within the Department of Internal Affairs, I have concerns about that regarding the Chief Archivist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe potential for the Department of Internal Affairs to starve Archives New Zealand of the necessary resources to fulfil its statutory functions is increased by the changes being proposed in this legislation. Also weakened is the ability of the Chief Archivist to express concerns about that and to whistle-blow or alert Parliament or the Minister to the fact that it does not have the resources it needs to carry out its statutory functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have seen in recent years a welcome move, quite frankly, to reduce the volume of information provided in annual reports and statements of intent that come to this House. I am concerned that if we try to shrink down the information that we get from a department like the Department of Internal Affairs, which has such a broad range of totally incompatible functions, we will lose all meaning in what is reported to the House and Parliament will not receive the information it needs. If we put that in the context of having entities like the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian merged into the Department of Internal Affairs, that concern only becomes more apparent, because the more contradictory and incompatible the functions incorporated within the Department of Internal Affairs, the more likely it is that they will feel the squeeze and the significance of the functions that they undertake will be undermined. There have been significant concerns raised about this particular proposal by people who work in this area. The New Zealand Historical Association and the New Zealand Society of Authors were particularly concerned about having access potentially restricted to archived material if political constraints and political considerations become part of this mix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a09363ecb54ec3b94564870f0b0a9c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Boy, this is riveting stuff!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225120ff91fc1c4c2bbc897ea97d67351a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He is on the edge of his seat. Tau Henare is quite literally on the edge of his seat and I think that that is really good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1607117993468caebb353deb30b05d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the only way he can sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f565d76fb694f88aa6b67f08be97039\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is the only way he can sit down nowadays, but I am glad that he has found this particular contribution entertaining and I would be happy to continue to entertain him for another 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfed518673544078bbfc7eb04786ea9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfed518673544078bbfc7eb04786ea9f\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e88b650dde004870a806dff69ca65d85\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000538\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 38 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000539\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) \u201Crepository\u201D and substitute \u201Cgovernment agency\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223456f961b8b2418ba13c66669b33cb06\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000540\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 39 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000541\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause as subclause (2):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000542\u0022\u003EThere shall be within the department an institution known as Archives New Zealand under the control and management of the Chief Archivist for the purposes of that office\u2019s exercise of all functions specified in section 11 of the principal Act.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299cce894a06c4d47be6e4fcde6494d7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000543\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000544\u0022\u003Eto insert in section 10(2) \u201Cin consultation with the Archives Council and national stakeholder organisations\u201D after \u201Cchief executive\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220aef603f4c94441ea969cdb6cafe3639\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000545\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000546\u0022\u003Eto add the following clause as subclause (2):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000547\u0022\u003E(2)\tSection 10 is amended by adding the following subsections:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000548\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tThe Chief Archivist must not, at the same time, hold any other position in the department.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000549\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tThere shall be regular consultations between chief executive, his or her representatives, and the Chief Archivist.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000550\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tThe chief executive shall monitor and report on the performance of the Chief Archivist.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a31d23f9738241a9b805c34f1b41c0de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000551\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to Part 3 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000552\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause after clause 40:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000553\u0022\u003E40A\tFunctions and duties of Chief Archivist\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000554\u0022\u003ESection 11(1)(c) is amended by adding the following subparagraphs:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000555\u0022\u003E\u201C(iv)\tto select and control the staff of Archives New Zealand; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000556\u0022\u003E\u201C(v)\tto take reasonable steps to provide suitable accommodation for public archives under his or her possession and control; and\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230398a04100842fe9d1e51c3a7151699\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000557\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to Part 3 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000558\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause after clause 40:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000559\u0022\u003E40A\tFunctions and duties of Chief Archivist\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000560\u0022\u003ESection 11(1)(c) is amended by adding the following subparagraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000561\u0022\u003E\u201C(iv)\tto advise and assist the Minister in matters relating to archives\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222efbfd2689e140ae95a265d5c3e091b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000562\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 41 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000563\u0022\u003Eto add to section 12 the following subsections as subsections (2) and (3):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000564\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tIn relation to the performance of his or her functions and duties and to the exercise of his or her powers under Part 2, the Chief Archivist\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000565\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tmust act independently in exercising his or her functions, duties and powers; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000566\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tis not subject to direction from either the Minister or the chief executive.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000567\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tAt the Minister\u2019s discretion the Chief Archivist shall have the right of independent access to the Minister on any matter in connection with the Chief Archivist\u2019s statutory responsibilities.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e62f799259d4c5daeb0f166b385bb9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000568\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 189 in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000569\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235c920fa263b47aaa1398abbb7e21ca2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229db5b8426cb9466585cc059544387b83\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c69da17d6d304181bfc796c8943bccd9\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0eb38d22c944fc2bd4fc6d22f9a9984\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002263b4c659f10b461d95aa12a1d4676f00\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223549863317864eef80e5bea4d0405b90\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c68595c4f85447b9586c1232aeee20b\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252159cd31d3246988934bb88a47937f5\u0022\u003ESupplementary  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000577\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Research, Science, and Technology Bill, the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill, and the Public Records Amendment Bill, pursuant to Order Paper188.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000578\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000579\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221edc58af59a84bae9269e2959c8af46f\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fb2214775e545c0ac67142af646c2f0\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022b82ea1497f5249668e439756ae060410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b82ea1497f5249668e439756ae060410\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to amend the ACT Party\u2019s vote on the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. There was a split vote. We were entitled to cast only four votes. The vote now stands at two votes in favour and two votes against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464879e89d4849b282bf654ffe5a6027\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to correct the record. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The record will be corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022346704cdafa2436480b0ab81dcb4821e\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014State Sector Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa1c0a398eaf4adfb3f2dd2cc4c062d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa1c0a398eaf4adfb3f2dd2cc4c062d5\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In a similar vein, I seek leave to correct a voting tally. A vote was cast this morning for the Progressive Party\u2014for the Hon Jim Anderton\u2014and that vote was cast in error. I seek leave for that vote to be deleted from the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5370e5001f04b9db278a954806ea187\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Which particular bill was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c8765e1ccf46749d1b87828e325c98\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: It was just one vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da84700711244a12a676744aea9c984a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He cast only one vote. Does the member know which one it was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a96f7f661f06412badd8624a6edba044\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there have been so many, but it was one this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621102bc959f49b1b55c51d69c1df26f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk is happy to look for that and correct it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228368c56912714b4b95a6c31f4bf9b558\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: It just needs to be twinked out, I think is the term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba577f0cbc04841bf23a1ea10489738\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As you say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224eb35124542d4bd7a8fd8b48d627e144\u0022\u003EResearch, Science, and Technology Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224eb35124542d4bd7a8fd8b48d627e144\u0022\u003ENational Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224eb35124542d4bd7a8fd8b48d627e144\u0022\u003EPublic Records Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213efbc0d7e8849ebb0d59448de9e5edc\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228656a929b1364b83a054dab81823b34f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228656a929b1364b83a054dab81823b34f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Research, Science, and Technology Bill, the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill, and the Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. I would like to start by thanking the chair of the Education and Science Committee, Mr Allan Peachey, members of the committee, and committee staff for their work on what was formerly the State Sector Management Bill. I would also like to acknowledge the Parliamentary Counsel Office, the State Services Commission, and affected agencies for their support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe passing of this legislation is important, because it now provides certainty to the many staff who work in the affected agencies. They were expecting the new Ministry of Science and Innovation to begin on 1 February, and they have been working towards that. Similarly, staff in the National Library, and in Archives New Zealand, have been working towards their incorporation into the Department of Internal Affairs from 1 February next year. The passing of this legislation enables them to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIn referring to the debate that went on in the Committee stage it is important to identify a number of features that need to be reported and stated in the third readings. The Hon Nathan Guy made it quite clear that in the view of the Crown Law Office this legislation actually strengthens the independence of the Chief Archivist. Similarly, I reject the criticism of members opposite that statutory officers within departments cannot act independently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264c2058c2d5943a1bd49dc6aa3adc887\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, my God!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f720384fb1474be8bcc553fea299ce21\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Chadwick says: \u201COh, my God!\u201D as though with a sense of disbelief. Well, she should know that David Henry as Chief Electoral Officer, a statutory officer in the Department of Justice, has shown that statutory officers act with great integrity. He revealed the fact that Labour spent hundreds of thousands of taxpayers\u2019 dollars in the 2005 general election, when it ripped off taxpayers in order to win the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c087ee1523b4432a1d014d3e15db207\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I take offence at the statement the Minister has just made about the Labour Party, and I ask that he withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f603754e7fbc4df88e60b665e9647508\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are objecting to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229cc81d6fc9b4482855523c27a97a4d9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I am objecting to the accusation he has made about members on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e661d9f720194543a488bc60446ad385\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 44/5 applies. If the member has taken objection, I ask the member to withdraw the comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92294cc9eef4cc9a13c674c53c28b0b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. David Henry showed that the Labour Party used public money and had to pay it back. What do we call it when a party uses $800,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money that it has to pay back? I use that example not to cause controversy but to alert members to the fact that statutory officers do act with independence, and we would expect that to happen following the incorporation of these agencies into the Department of Internal Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe provisions contained in the legislation mark the next step in the Government\u2019s drive to ensure that its administrative arrangements are organised to deliver improved services at reduced cost in the short to medium term and to future-proof the delivery of Government responsibility and services for the long term. Collectively, these and other changes add up to a commitment by the Government not to impose a one-size-fits-all approach, or a blunt chop of significant numbers of Government agencies, but to consider each sector on its own and to put in place administrative arrangements that are best suited for the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis bill combines the capabilities of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology into a new department that will clearly leave the sector with a unified strategic policy direction, with more clarity and certainty around agency responsibilities, and with reduced complexity and transaction costs across the system. The Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2) and the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill will provide a simpler and more effective governance approach for gathering information, protecting information, and providing access to records and information that are vital to individual New Zealanders, communities, the Government of the day, and Parliament. Bringing together the National Library, Archives New Zealand, and the Department of Internal Affairs will provide for better, integrated decision-making and enable staff to draw on wider pools of expertise within a much larger corporate environment with reduced collaboration costs and lower corporate overheads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Nathan Guy said, all three of those agencies are embarking on, or are some way down the track of, a massive digitalisation of their collections and information. It makes a lot of sense to minimise and mitigate the risk of the future in that respect by bringing those three agencies together. It is actually a 21st century approach to Archives New Zealand and the National Library, rather than some sort of quaint reminiscence of what it used to be like in the 1970s when trucks arrived from the National Library to give a few books to the schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIn summary, these bills form the foundation of a better, more integrated, and more efficient administration of the Government\u2019s role in research, science, and technology, and for the gathering, protection, and development of some of New Zealand\u2019s most important records, knowledge, and information resources. The Government welcomes the enactment of these bills. I think, very importantly, that the passing of these bills under urgency gives greater certainty to the staff who are involved that the various agencies will be in a position to meet the 1 February time line for the beginning of these new agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022753ac5fe4e82476f95cc385479ffb6a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022753ac5fe4e82476f95cc385479ffb6a6\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that the Minister ended his speech with faux concern for the staff of these agencies. These are the same agencies where staff numbers have been cut and morale is incredibly low, as it is right across the public sector under this Minister of State Services, Tony Ryall. It is also interesting to note that he decided to invoke the Crown Law opinion to say that the independence and the statutory functions of the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian were strengthened. That is so far from the truth it is unbelievable. That Crown Law opinion, which we had to prise from the hands of Nathan Guy before he got the twink bottle on to it, actually says nothing of the sort. It says some benign things about the legal status of the new arrangements, but because it was written before the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 new structure was announced, it does not cover the fact that the Chief Archivist and National Librarian will be third-tier managers. It does mention that if the National Librarian and the Chief Archivist are subservient to the chief executive, it would \u201Cimpact to some extent on the National Librarian\u2019s scope of decision making.\u201D, so it acknowledges that the independence and influence of the National Librarian and the Chief Archivist are diminished as a result of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note, as a number of other speakers have mentioned, that throughout the process of the Government deciding what it wanted to do with Archives New Zealand and the National Library, it has been almost impossible to get information out of the Minister of State Services about the proposals. I had two complaints go to the Ombudsmen, which were ruled in my favour in respect of getting information, but that took months and months. The irony is not lost on this side of the House that for the Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2), the bill that changes the nature of Archives New Zealand, we could not get official information out. Then to have Minister Guy get out his twink pen earlier today just capped it off for us, really, showing the attitude towards the importance of information, the storage of information, and the availability of information for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EObviously, as we have said before, what is now the Research, Science and Technology Bill, which was Part 1 of the original bill, is not a bill that we have great opposition to, although it would be fair to say that we have fairly lukewarm enthusiasm for it. However, we strongly oppose the other two bills that this legislation has been divided into, the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill and the Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2). When we look specifically at the National Library and the contributions about it in the Committee stage, we see that I was not able to spend time on the Alexander Turnbull Library. We on this side of the House spoke at great length about the impact of the legislative changes on the National Librarian. We put forward amendments to attempt to change those so that the National Librarian could have independence and could report to Parliament, but they were voted down. But we did not really have time to talk about the Alexander Turnbull Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331d11b5d46547728a3b8c22d67824df\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I did\u2014I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a1fe3eaa0094c4e970c6671a974f446\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, my colleague Chris Hipkins did speak about it for a little while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to come back to the matter whereby the librarian who is the head of the Alexander Turnbull Library will be at the fourth-tier level of the Department of Internal Affairs. That was a matter of great concern to a number of submitters who came to the select committee, and who said to us that they were concerned the status and mana of the Alexander Turnbull Library would be severally undermined by this bill. The Friends of the Turnbull Library and the National Library Society all raised concern about the Alexander Turnbull Library. That library is not a library of Government documents; it is a library of family documents from all over New Zealand, going very far back, including\u2014and my colleague Nanaia Mahuta mentioned this\u2014the question of documents provided by M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETe komiti M\u0101ori raised their concerns with the select committee, as well. In fact, it was during the submission of Te komiti M\u0101ori that I put the question to one person who was representative of families who had documents in the Turnbull Library, and I asked whether they would think again of putting documents into the Alexander Turnbull Library if this bill were passed. They replied straight away that they would\u2014because their concern is that the Turnbull Library represents something of significance and something of independence\u2014rather than feel they were giving these documents over to the Government, in the form of the Department of Internal Affairs. So I think it is worth noting and reinforcing what my colleague Chris Hipkins had to say earlier on: the Alexander Turnbull Library is being diminished by this bill. There are protections in place within the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Act, but I am not confident now that the library, having been made part of the Department of Internal Affairs, will retain the status and mana that it has and deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMoving back to the question of Archives New Zealand, I think that this is a particularly sad day for us today, because we are moving back to the position of the 1990s. That position has been described by a former Chief Archivist as being one in which there was an environment of distrust and rancour. There was litigation; the matter about where the archives should be placed was taken to court in the 1990s. When Labour came into office in 1999, we moved to create a separate agency, called Archives New Zealand, to ensure that we met international good practice. The Unesco guidelines on archives say the following in relation to organisational placement: \u201CPlacement within the government that prevents the submission of the agency beneath competing interests; eliminates blurring of functions with other professional agencies and disciplines; protects against interference with agency program responsibilities under the colour of co-ordination authority; and eliminates hampering supervision and control by having little or no professional knowledge of its program responsibilities and operations.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat was the situation in the 1990s. We were against the Unesco guidelines because Archives New Zealand was within the Department of Internal Affairs. We separated it out after the 1999 election, and the last 10 years have been marked by the best-ever operations of archives in New Zealand. Members can talk to any stakeholder around New Zealand, and they will be told that Archives New Zealand has never operated better than the way in which it has been operating today. But we are undoing today the progress we have made in the last 10 years. There has been no justification, whatsoever, provided to the Committee or this House as to why we are actually doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere were some good comments from the Minister about digitalisation. As the experience in Canada showed, much of that did not actually take place; much of the perceived benefit was not there. David Shearer has already raised concerns about whether the computer systems at the Department of Internal Affairs can actually cope with this change. There is no justification for changing a fundamentally important part of our constitutional and democratic infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe had submitter after submitter; I want to pay tribute to the submitters, some of whom are in the gallery today, and I say that the quality of the submissions we heard in the select committee process was extremely high. Not only were they based on strong values and on strong underpinnings of what an archives and a library should be but they were based on empirical experience. They were based on the experience of people working in Archives New Zealand in the 1990s, who were unable to perform their jobs to the fullest of their abilities because of the structure they were part of. It is an unfortunate thing that those people have had to come back to a committee now, after they thought all of it had been resolved at the beginning of the century. The commitment that I make to those people\u2014and I made it in the Committee stage\u2014is that if a Labour Party is returned to office, we will look again at this legislation and ensure there is a structure that gives proper independence to Archives New Zealand and to the Chief Archivist. We are not bound to what the structure might be, but it will be one that enables Archives New Zealand to operate independently and to the fullest ability of the people in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn the brief time remaining I will mention a couple of other matters, such as the whole question of transparency. I have already raised the issue of the Official Information Act and of the twinking of documents. It is very unfortunate that we will now have less information about Archives New Zealand and the National Library in the public arena. There will be no direct reports to this Parliament, and I regard that as something that will diminish those two institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe National Library and Archives New Zealand are made up of much more than documents, books, and papers. Those institutions are also the professionals who work in those organisations, and throughout this debate their professionalism has been undermined by the belief shown by the other side of the House that they are simply mere bureaucrats who can be reorganised and reshuffled into any old organisation. Those people deserve far better than that; they are the custodians of our heritage. They are the protectors of our transparency and accountability in Government, and we need to support them, not undermine them. On this side of the House we will continue to support Archives New Zealand, the National Library, and the Alexander Turnbull Library, and we will ensure that in time they are returned to their proper status.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022be8dceb624ac4621bb3b6d733acfc2ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be8dceb624ac4621bb3b6d733acfc2ee\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call during the third reading of the Research, Science, and Technology Bill, the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill, and the Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2). The Government remains committed to designing a first-class State Service, and that is never clearer than when we look at combining the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology together under the Ministry of Science and Innovation. This is the first major amendment to the Foundation for Research, Science, and Technology Act since 1990, and it certainly sets up science and innovation to take us forward. We know that as an economy we need to have a well-aligned science and innovation service and commercialisation arm. It gives me great pleasure to support this legislation and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022253be5e9c3624f0489c2ff0c1f7460fe\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffe2d2bf2cb6416a8c67372ec5b46716\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014State Sector Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00220f1081fddb444e9daad470254a134373\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f1081fddb444e9daad470254a134373\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to correct the vote this morning from the Progressive Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d039c29f6b8420da2bf60b8cbd50595\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On which bill was this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721794769f3942a1afb07b5fbdbf76af\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: The vote on the second reading of the State Sector Management Bill and the vote on the majority amendments recommended by Education and Science Committee. I seek leave to withdraw the Progressive vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222856e8cc3e03486c8406a8150c53b7ef\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The record will be amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230146e0312734d4ba527f3fff334ca1f\u0022\u003EResearch, Science, and Technology Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230146e0312734d4ba527f3fff334ca1f\u0022\u003ENational Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230146e0312734d4ba527f3fff334ca1f\u0022\u003EPublic Records Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022736d4dffb3cb49ee9edfc97d687c84be\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000636\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002224a9a7165dc64fb4aef04d9c132ddb60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224a9a7165dc64fb4aef04d9c132ddb60\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E After hearing the Committee stage of the State Sector Management Bill Labour\u2019s position remains absolutely opposed to Part 2 and Part 3 of that bill, which have been split off into separate bills with regard to Archives New Zealand and the National Library. We remain committed to the merger of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology into the Ministry of Science and Innovation, but we have to add the rejoinder that that ministry must be adequately funded, or we will not see innovation emerging from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI will mention in the House some of the observations that we have made today. It was disappointing to see the lack of understanding from the Minister in the chair, Nathan Guy. He appears to be a really straight, prosaic, and sort of plodding Minister, who gets the work done. He is a farmer by background, and he has never managed a large number of people. He has failed to demonstrate an understanding today of the culture of the organisations. He has been led by Minister Tony Ryall, who is far more cunning in his endeavour to restructure the Public Service with his hands all over it, and who has bullied Nathan Guy into accepting that there is just a simple realignment involved when putting the National Library, Archives New Zealand, and the Alexander Turnbull Library into the Department of Internal Affairs. Nathan Guy has been absolutely duped by his senior Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt was appalling to see in the Committee, as we came to the debate on Part 3 in respect of public records, the Minister in the chair, having been requested to table a Crown Law opinion by Grant Robertson, reach for the twink to alter that report before Labour could get to the Table. The whole point of Archives New Zealand and the independence of the Chief Archivist is to have transparency and open access to the public record, and with that independence only the Chief Archivist can decide what can be deleted. How on earth could we trust that Minister in the chair, who will forever be named \u201CTwinky Guy\u201D? That will stick with him. He has never managed an organisation, and he fails to understand the cultural impact of an organisation that he has inherited, which went through this experiment in the 1990s. That experiment failed dismally, and only a decade ago Archives New Zealand was given institutional independence and has thrived ever since. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe audit department could find no fault with Archives New Zealand; neither could the public of New Zealand. There have been no complaints. But we heard the Minister in the chair say the reason why it needs to be put back into the Department of Internal Affairs is that its building had a leaky roof. Well, Minister Tony Ryall had a far better rationalisation than just the leaky roof. When he first came into the House he said, in a very quiet and measured voice, that the purpose of these amalgamations was to improve services within their existing boundaries, reduce cost in the short to medium term, and future-proof the long-term delivery of Government services. What a lot of baloney! What a lot of blah! Tony Ryall did this so that he could slash and burn the public services in order to grow some superministries and get them under his purview. I think that it is very sad to see Nathan Guy being marginalised, just as the National Librarian and the Chief Archivist are absolutely being marginalised by their third-tier reporting positions in relation to the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ETony Ryall did make a good point about the new digital platform, but why would Tony Ryall think that the digital platform was better placed within the Department of Internal Affairs than within any other ministry? Why? It is going through a process at the moment of digitalisation, and this will simply add layer upon layer of pressure on that platform. Heaven forbid, we have seen that happen in Parliament, as we have tried to upgrade a simple information technology programme for members of Parliament that has simply failed us in doing that function. I do not think the digitalisation here will ever deliver the efficiencies that Tony Ryall wants to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EChris Finlayson is the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage, and I find it distinctly interesting that his opinion has been absolutely missing here in a Cabinet decision. What on earth was the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage doing missing in action, and allowing this fundamental error to occur? Well, he was not a Minister and he was not around in the 1990s to know that a merger failed then. And it will fail again, as the culture of these organisations causes nothing but conflict within a Government department. So we see the Minister here being limp in his delivery, trying to convince us all that this measure will be a good thing, primarily for the public of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt was nice to hear Minister Ryall actually show a little concern about the staff. I have never heard Government Ministers ever acknowledge the pressure that they put on the public services, and that is why we are sitting in urgency at 3.20 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon. Tony Ryall said the librarians and archivists all wanted to be given certainty of the merger into the superministry, the Department of Internal Affairs, by February. That is why we are here discussing this bill in urgency today. I had never heard a Minister of the Crown show any vague concern at all about the staff\u2019s well-being as bureaucrats. They have been treated as fodder; they have been slashed and burned. Those Government Ministers have shown an absolute arrogance and failed to understand the professionalism, and also the institutional memory, of so many of our senior professionals\u2014they are not bureaucrats\u2014in the Public Service. New Zealand had a Public Service that we were proud of in the 9 years under Labour, and it is now being decimated under the guise of bringing in efficiency and improved services for the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe oppose this legislation. Labour Opposition member Grant Robertson put forward several very serious amendments. Those serious amendments were totally disregarded, with the Government\u2019s attitude being: \u201CWhy bother? You are there. We won. You lost. Eat that!\u201D. Those amendments, which were put forward by someone who knows about the culture of Archives New Zealand, the National Library, and the Alexander Turnbull Library, were totally disregarded. That is the right of the Government, but there will be problems with the lack of independence of the officers of those institutions. I was pleased to hear my colleague say that when Labour returns to Government\u2014and it will happen\u2014we will restore their level of independence to the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis is a sad day. The Government has got it wrong. It will not admit that, and it never will. Government members will stand up and say it is fantastic that they have done this. They will say it is done and dusted, so we should move on to the next item on the Order Paper. There are people behind this; there are entities behind this. They have been built up with a level of pride and professionalism, which will be decimated in this transition back into a superministry. I think that is terribly sad. I do not believe that the move towards digitalisation in this legislation will work any better than it did when we set out to do it. I recall a speech by Marian Hobbs that talked about the need to digitalise the archival record. It is slow, and it is not easy. It is a long process, and we have to invest in that process. But what will we achieve here? We will achieve something like the loss of 15 jobs. The Government will say that is good\u201415 more public servants down the road, at a saving of $165,000 a year. The Minister of Internal Affairs today, for the first time, tabled his figures, which stated that, oh no, it would be $1.5 million. We have never had access to that figure, even though we have asked for it in written questions and there have been Official Information Act requests. So we query\u2014with a Minister who had his twink pen ready to delete things\u2014whether there is even any rigour behind the figures that that Minister tabled in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E Our minority report on the State Sector Management Bill before it was divided says it all. We are deeply saddened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00224943901a9636405885946659f2868035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224943901a9636405885946659f2868035\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker. Here we are, on Saturday afternoon. I hope no National Party voters are watching the broadcast today, because I think if they are, they would be a bit more distracted from the \u201Csmile and wave\u201D of the Prime Minister and they would look at the substance of what is happening today. If we look at the substance of what is happening today, we see that bad legislation is being passed under bad process, and I think those voters would look twice at National. I guess it is not surprising that we have this bad legislation being passed under bad process, but I have been shocked. I ask where the National members are today. Where are they? Why have they not stood up and presented their argument\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19e85900ebc43e79ccdff87f084f183\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot refer to the absence of members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a034f8fbb6f94b24a0931bd0f02eed79\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Interruption] They certainly have been absent. We have seen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b164e4c7f14d0d8f7493bb4550325a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member is new, but once I have made a statement and I have ruled, the member must not try to relitigate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022735608881c1840fb85f2d0d3ee5168fb\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: We have seen some serious argument, with serious counterargument missing. We have seen some serious amendments presented and also voted down. I am not talking about just political amendments; I am talking about serious, credible amendments, which were also voted down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBefore the lunch break we were discussing the urgency, and I think this is why this is bad process. Why are we passing this legislation at 3.20, nearly 3.30, on a Saturday afternoon under urgency? When I think of urgency, I think of tackling the climate crisis. I think of tackling the great economic problems. I think of tackling that growing gap between the rich and poor and tackling inequality in New Zealand. Over the lunchtime I went and welcomed Sea Shepherd to Wellington. When I think about urgency, I think about those hundreds of whales about to be slaughtered in the Southern Ocean, not about one Government department taking over a couple of other departments in the name of ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBefore lunch I talked about my photo analogy. I went to the archives and found this great collection of World War II photographs that had, ignorantly and in an uninformed manner, been stuck together with glue. That had wrecked those precious photographs for ever\u2014those tremendous one-offs. I think that is an apt analogy for this legislation. We are seeing an uninformed and ad hoc approach with this legislation. It is being rushed through under urgency, without due consideration and due argument and thinking. We are not talking about dusty old documents or about hypothetical things; we are talking about treasures\u2014the treasures of our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn the rushed debate today, we have not heard answers to the questions about why we need to be doing this, and whether the institutions and the departments are broke. We have not heard whether we are talking about best practice to support the users of the National Library and Archives New Zealand. We have not talked about the best practice internationally, or about whether this is taking us forwards or backwards, and we have not heard answers that legitimately address those concerns. A telling omission in the debate, in the officials\u2019 recommendations, and in the Cabinet document is what this bill will actually do for users of the National Library, what it will mean for historians, researchers, and genealogists, and what it will mean for people who donate goods to the Alexander Turnbull Library. It is a telling omission because it shows that this legislation is more about ideology to do with getting rid of a few workers in the State sector\u2014about State sector ideology\u2014than it is about supporting best practice and these much-loved and treasured institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI believe that there is an absence of a robust argument or actual tabled figures when we talk about things like future-proofing, efficiency, and digitisation. If we do not have the facts, then we are simply spouting slogans. That is what we have heard from the get-go, at the start of this process in the Cabinet document through to the debate today. We have seen the bad process when the Minister in the chair\u2014the \u201CMinister of Twink\u201D\u2014quickly twinked out our documents and the document that he tabled. If only another Minister could twink out those houses in the Mana electorate where his motorway is going through!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI am still baffled as to why we are debating this legislation today, and why the National members on the Education and Science Committee did not go back to their caucus and Cabinet and say: \u201CWell, look, fellows, all the evidence from all the experts said that we should not be doing this. There is no real reason\u2014we are talking about only $165,000 a year. Come on, guys, let\u2019s have a bit of common sense.\u201D Unfortunately, those members did not go back and say that, and they have not presented today a coherent argument as to why we are doing this. We heard from the Minister of Internal Affairs about the National Library\u2019s leaky roof under the previous Government. Come on, let us be serious\u2014we are talking about our national treasures today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EHowever, I thank the members of the select committee for the questions. I thank Grant Robertson and David Shearer for their excellent work on Parts 1, 2, and 3. I thank the submitters\u2014people who are passionately inspired by and who care about our national treasures. For them, this legislation is not just about dusty old documents; it is about their lifeblood, something they are absolutely passionate about. We heard about whether this legislation will be debated over summer barbecues this year. I am sure that it will be, and I hope it will be. What we are talking about is not lemon institutions\u2014bad Government departments\u2014but about institutions that are well regarded internationally and that perform well, according to the Cabinet paper that started off this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI guess the main reason why I am opposed to this legislation is that it is a contradiction in terms. The legislation says that we will be preserving these institutions\u2019 statutory independence, which is a contradiction, because at the moment we have the reality of independence for the National Librarian and the Chief Archivist, and we are relegating them to a third tier. It is as if we are dropping them from the All Blacks and putting them down to a provincial rugby team\u2014we are putting them on the bench. It is a contradiction to say that they will still have the same level of independence. The fact is that they were chief executive officers, but now they will simply be employees. They are accountable to the Department of Internal Affairs, and they will have to comply with the culture, the financial decisions that are made, and the personality of the chief executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. They will have to compete with the other third-tier chief employees from agencies such as the Passports Office, which Minister Guy talked about earlier. They will have to compete within the Department of Internal Affairs for focus, and that is not good enough. The National Library and Archives New Zealand are not just any old departments like the Passports Office; these are important constitutional departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe have the risk of conflict occurring between the different departments within the Department of Internal Affairs. We have the risk of their voices, which are so important, being silenced. We also have the risk that we will see the worst of both worlds\u2014we will see the Chief Archivist and the National Librarian spending a great deal of their time on the day-to-day administration of being part of the Department of Internal Affairs, without having any ability to influence the executive team of that department. I point out that there have been some good changes to the legislation, such as the ability to have a separate and independent vote, and the good change from the select committee, which was to delete most of the clauses between clause 47 and clause 58, thereby retaining the public records within Archives New Zealand, and not with the Department of Internal Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to touch on the risk to our image, and this is true. National members may scoff, but the risk is true. We are worsening the standard, when countries all around the world are investing in their institutions, such as these. They are adopting best international practice. Now the US, the UK, Australia, and Canada all have more power, more profile, and more independence of their statutory offices, like the National Library, than we do in New Zealand. This legislation takes us backwards. It is contrary to the Unesco guidelines, it is contrary to the International Council on Archives document on principles, and it is a step backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn summary, I am glad the State Sector Management Bill has been divided, because I wholeheartedly endorse the Green Party\u2019s vote against Parts 2 and 3. It is bad practice to be passing this legislation under urgency. It is bad legislation. It is bad not to listen to the select committee submitters, who were overwhelming. It is bad not to listen to the experts in the field who produce coherent arguments, which were not backed up. It is legitimate to ask: is it broke? No. Is it adopting best international practice for the sector? No. Does it take us backwards? Yes. Will it really impact on the independence and the actual great work of these institutions? Yes. Should this legislation proceed? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022979e9f5653bb4a74a7c17ed12b25ab84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022979e9f5653bb4a74a7c17ed12b25ab84\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a relatively brief call on the third readings. First, I say right from the outset that over the course of the last 6\u00BD hours that we have been debating this legislation, we are still waiting for any good reason why Archives New Zealand and the National Library have to be pushed into the Department of Internal Affairs. We listened to Nathan Guy talk about all sorts of things, but there was no solid rationale and no coherent argument for why we are here today, debating this ridiculous legislation, until Tony Ryall rose at the very end and mentioned the word \u201Cdigitalisation\u201D. Digitalisation seems to be the key that brings us to the House today to try to bring Archives New Zealand and the National Library into the Department of Internal Affairs. It is a software solution to a much more complex set of issues than I think Tony Ryall realises. The situation with Archives New Zealand and the National Library is that \u201Cit ain\u2019t broke\u201D, and we should not be trying to fix it. They are very good institutions, they have shown themselves to be much better as independent organisations, and we should not be trying to push them into the Department of Internal Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut the other part of this legislation deals with research, science, and technology. Dr Wayne Mapp went to some lengths to explain how this part of the legislation will bring about a huge step change in the way that the economic progress and fortunes of this country will proceed. The name of the new Ministry of Science and Innovation is good, but if we look beyond the name we see that there is not much more to it. Let us face it. The new ministry has a new leader, who was recruited within New Zealand. That is fine, but the Minister did not even bother to look more widely internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe Minister has spoken about the vouchers and the grants that this Government brought in, under the Government\u2019s Budget earlier this year. What do those grants and vouchers do? He said that they are superior to the 15 percent tax credit that this Government abolished when it came into power. I can tell Dr Mapp that they are certainly not better. It is half the value of what National promised when in Opposition. National promised twice the value that the Government delivered in the Budget. The Government has done away with the 15 percent tax credits. If we went around any private companies in this country and ask them whether they would prefer a bunch of grants that they would have to apply to a Government department for\u2014so that whether they get some money to do research and development would depend on the good feelings and the warm feelings of a bureaucrat\u2014or whether they would want a 15 percent tax credit, I can tell Dr Mapp that we would find they would prefer the 15 percent tax credit all up, all of the time. But it is not only that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe third thing I point out about the tax credit is that it has taken 2 years for money to be paid out on these grants and vouchers. In those 2 years we could have had decent innovation amongst our companies out there\u2014decent innovation. Instead, tax credits were stopped and it has taken 2 years for us to construct this new, wonderful scheme that the Minister has brought out whereby basically companies have to go cap in hand to a bureaucrat in order to get money to fund their research and development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d185a886172a4901877d188f7588c94e\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Instead of using creative accounting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f61e7c8e56428fa1c5ad054ad60fa7\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Colin King is interjecting. I say to him that Australia came over and took our 15 percent tax credit, lock, stock, and barrel\u2014everything that we had done\u2014and transported it over there. That is what Australian companies have. This Government proclaims that it wants us to catch up to Australia, and the Australians have come over to New Zealand and taken one of our best ideas and transported it back there. The Australians are using it, and their companies are getting all the advantages. That is not to mention that the Australians have bumped up their research and development spend by 25 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOne of the main drivers of this Government\u2019s economic development, which is research, development, and innovation, is purely pathetic. The Government has dismantled the best thing that has been brought in. It is the biggest tax cut that companies in this country have ever received. It is bigger than the tax cut that was announced in the Budget. Companies that are exporting, which are the most valuable to us in New Zealand, have had a tax increase as a result of this Government. It took away the 15 percent tax credit, and that 15 percent tax credit was one of the biggest helps to innovation and development in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222792b1b2e0864b0191de9580283dbe3c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Good for creative accounting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e87997b54df49a98b33ad1da8bffbfd\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: It is simply what we have now\u2014State welfare for companies. It will do nothing to raise the research and development private spend, which is at an abysmal level in this country; it will do nothing for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eef4206835e414aba8a1d568979b61b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Prove it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b963ddeb5c7487a8bcf2cf8685c790f\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Mapp keeps on interjecting. Dr Mapp keeps talking about Denmark being a wonderful country. Denmark has the same agricultural basis as New Zealand, but it has managed to increase its manufacturing and its innovation. How about taking on some of the same things that Denmark has done, rather than sitting there and talking about what a wonderful place Denmark might be? What about having a tax credit for research and development? Denmark has lots of assistance and lots of support, and far more support than this Government is handing out. If this Minister really wants to be aspirational, why do we not go over to Denmark and see who is over there who might lead our Ministry of Science and Innovation, rather than opening up the recruitment process for a period of 2 weeks and 3 days? Somehow, in 2 weeks and 3 days, we were supposed to attract the best and the brightest throughout the world. Instead, we kept our aspirations looking towards our feet, rather than looking towards the sky. Instead of that, we certainly have not gone through the right process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI believe that although this legislation seeks to bring the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology together with the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, and create a new, dynamic, innovative powerhouse in the Ministry of Science and Innovation, it is doing nothing of the sort. In fact, as we found out at the Education and Science Committee, when we asked some of the officials: \u201CWhere are the aspirational aspects in this bill? Where is the statement of intent as to what it will do?\u201D, they said: \u201CWell, actually, we\u2019ve just been struggling with trying to bring the two parts of these two organisations together, and we really haven\u2019t got to that yet.\u201D I think that should have been set through the leadership of the Minister, and we should have had an aspiration that we could have actually followed in the legislation that followed that aspiration. Instead, we have legislation welding together a couple of departments. We are not opposed to it, because when we come back into power we will make something of them. We will take this shell, we will take this pathetic attempt at innovation\u2014nothing more than the words\u2014and we will stitch it together and actually make something of it. That will include having a tax credit, such as the one the Government has taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis legislation that has kept us here on a Saturday for 6\u00BD hours is nothing short of a complete waste of time. We have taken Archives New Zealand and the National Library of New Zealand back to the Dark Ages of the 1990s, and we have been completely and utterly unaspirational, as it concerns the Ministry of Science and Innovation. I can think of many, many things I could have done with these 6 hours today rather than sitting here in this House and listening to that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022c76f0d6418dd427cabd0966f323a3043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c76f0d6418dd427cabd0966f323a3043\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E This John Key - led Government is overwhelmingly supported by New Zealanders. I will tell the House two of the six reasons why that is. We have a strong economic plan, and two components of that plan are supported by this legislation: enhancing science and innovation, and getting a better, and more efficient and effective public sector. That is why I am delighted to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022edcaabc52b0c4619a3fc641c68160658\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Research, Science and Technology Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 38; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299edbecd2d78473588a983e5440f4351\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f049bee49fef40d49487b10d54246164\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Records Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 38; Green Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6d5e416faf84bada0bed7d8f15a840c\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229612e73cab264620b3fcf73ad03f19b1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cad8f29eca1d43e186ace24d970ca30f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cad8f29eca1d43e186ace24d970ca30f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to suspend Standing Order 256, relating to omnibus bills, to allow the Committee of the whole House on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) to consider an amendment in my name that proposes amendments to the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219656f54e7a94bf8990db0013008136f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002296cf51c33a6d41539daa2129155440d1\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff37b869dca4ccaae6a0c97dad50052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff37b869dca4ccaae6a0c97dad50052\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased that we have finally got to the debate on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2); I think it is fair to say that it will not take quite as long as it might have previously. I think there will be an interesting debate when we get to new Part 1A, which we will debate after Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThat leaves us with a number of areas where Labour disagrees very firmly with National. The first area I will focus on is the question of whether entry to a State school should be a hereditary right; whether, in the end, someone whose parents or even grandparents went to a school should have a right to enter that school over and above someone who lives close to the school, and who would otherwise be in the zone. It is the view of Labour\u2014the very firm view of Labour\u2014that State schools in New Zealand should not be subject to entitlement rights. People should not be able to pass down the right to attend particular schools. Generally this is from father to son; it is more often that way than from mother to daughter. The rule just about always concerns single-sex schools. I know National is firmly in favour of hereditary rights, but generally that is not the case in New Zealand, and for that reason we have amendments that focus on that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESome amendments sitting on the Table focus on the question of private schools and their disciplinary procedures. The Law Commission undertook a very, very thorough review of the law as it related to independent schools, and made a series of recommendations. To give the Government credit, it picked up a few of those recommendations, but it did not pick up some of the more important ones, and it was totally unable to tell the Education and Science Committee why. I am not blaming officials in this area\u2014it is not their job to defend Government policy\u2014but we were looking for reasons why some of the suggestions of the Law Commission were not picked up, after its well-researched project. Because we did not get a good explanation, we have, in fact, picked up two of the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe first recommendation is pretty simple. It would make private schools\u2019 disciplinary procedures available, on request, to students and their parents when students are facing suspension, exclusion, or expulsion. That seems pretty reasonable. We are not saying that the procedures have to be printed; they could be on a website and people could get them that way. They could be in a booklet. If we are to have a just approach to discipline within the private school system, then having a system that records those processes and makes them available to students is, as the Law Commission recommended, pretty reasonable. We cannot see why a Government would not want to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn a similar vein, the commission said schools should adhere to some basic procedural requirements. When students have been suspended, their parents should have the right to request that the suspension be lifted or varied, and have the right to make submissions in support of the request. Adequate notice of the proposed exclusion or expulsion should be given to the students and their parents. There should be a reasonable opportunity for the parents to attend a meeting. Again, anyone who has any sense of natural justice would say that none of that should be a problem; it should be pretty much automatic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do not want to in any way portray the Labour Party as a defender of independent schools, but I say that most of them have very good processes. I think that very, very few of them would have a problem with these recommendations. But as the Law Commission makes clear, a few independent schools\u2014some traditional, and some I might describe as weird and wonderful\u2014do not have processes that work in an appropriate manner. I see no reason why they should not have good processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe next area I will focus on is the question of disciplinary processes to do with the Teachers Council. I thank the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Education, for inviting me to her office to give me a group of areas in relation to which she was proposing to table a late Supplementary Order Paper in the select committee. I think members of the select committee will agree that I probably ended up promoting the Supplementary Order Paper within the committee, because I have no doubt that the disciplinary procedures for the Teachers Council are dated and do not work effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI acknowledge, and I warn Ms Turei, that Catherine Delahunty, a member of the committee, was not happy with that process. I agree with her: it was not good process. We asked both the unions, the Teachers Council, and the School Trustees Association to appear. None of us thought it was good process, but then again none of us thought it would be worth waiting another couple of years till a similar bill came down the track, and just leaving the gap there. That call was made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI must say\u2014and I feel slightly surprised about this\u2014I have read recently about a plan by the Minister for Tertiary Education for another Education Amendment bill, mainly dealing with tertiary matters. It is too late now for this particular part, but it might have been better process if, in fact, it had been associated with that legislation. As we are learning, when Education Amendment bills occur, they can be very broad. That would have been better process, but that was not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EHaving said that, the Minister and I talked about one area that we thought we would progress but which, after she received further advice, she chose not to move on. For me it was probably the most important issue that sat there\u2014that is, the fact that so often when cases are before the disciplinary tribunal there is a reflection across quite a big group of teachers, because of the very poor suppression arrangements in the rules of the Teachers Council. Some very good work has been done by Simon Power on the suppression issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI have picked up on that issue in Supplementary Order Paper 183 in my name. It would add new clauses 12DA and 12DB. They effectively incorporate those principles into the processes. We would move to an assumption of openness but then have the committee closed and have the ability to suppress names. No one wants to see the names of kids who have been molested by teachers published. But at the moment the rules of the Teachers Council are basically all or nothing. It is either all open or all closed. They do not have an ability there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are two approaches. One is that we can write the rules for the council, and those are set out in my Supplementary Order Paper. The Teachers Council says that it has not changed the rules, because it thinks that the $1,000 fine imposed on media organisations that breach suppression is not sufficient. I agree with the council. Media organisations want to get a lot of publicity. It is fair to say that probably the Minister and I both get calls on Friday nights and Saturday mornings from Sunday papers with case after case that they glory in. But they do have a case. It is reasonable that there should be an ability to focus on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe alternative is set out in my second Supplementary Order Paper. New clause 12DC changes the $1,000 fine to a $100,000 fine. It does not rewrite the rules. That amendment would allow the Teachers Council to redo its rules and have proper suppression rules. It could name the teacher but protect the child. I think that would be reasonable and it would have a presumption of openness. At the moment that is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002255f3db398555434383a382c9d6e090c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f3db398555434383a382c9d6e090c3\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In my opinion the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) represents why we have the tail of underachievement that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Anne Tolley, often talks about. She talks often about the one in five children who fail at school. If we look at the five general areas in the bill, four of those areas would fail to raise achievement in any way, in my opinion. It is my ongoing concern that we have Education Amendment bills that actually do not focus on the core purpose of the education system\u2014that is, to make sure that children learn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOne of the areas in this bill deals with secondary-tertiary programmes, and I believe that has real merit. I commend the Minister for taking a gamble on this. There is no evidence that this will make a difference to raising student achievement but I think it is something that should be explored. It should have researchers following it along, so that in time we can see whether the secondary-tertiary programmes do make a difference. Then if they do not, we need to have the courage to do away with them. There is a very simple way that we can check whether they are making a difference. If members refer back to education research, such as that by Professor John Hattie, they will see that he talks about the effect size of educational initiatives. If a programme has an effect-size of greater than 0.4, then it is making a difference to student learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EJust about every initiative or strategy that teachers use in class could be said to work to some effect or another. But it is the strategies and innovations that work the most that we really need to encourage. As I say, if, over time, research goes to show that secondary-tertiary programmes do not have an effect size of over 0.4, then we need to have the courage to try something else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI think this part of the bill is a good start. I believe we could go further in terms of the secondary-tertiary programmes. They change the context of a student\u2019s learning. Instead of being stuck in the form rooms of a traditional school setting, where students are bound by the school rules\u2014they have to wear their uniform, pull their socks up, tuck their shirts in, and those sort of things\u2014they have the opportunity to move into an educational setting where they are treated more like adults. It is interesting to note that a teacher I used to work with often commented to me that while a child is at a school in the compulsory learning sector, they should be called a pupil, and it is only when they go into a tertiary setting that they should be called a student. What we have with secondary-tertiary programmes are pupils moving from the old traditional school setting into a more adult setting. I think that is a really good change of context, and in itself that could be a motivating factor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EHowever, secondary-tertiary situations will not make a difference if the lecturers in front of the students are not expert practitioners. That is the crux of what we always have to consider whenever we talk about education legislation, that the people in front of the students are highly skilled practitioners. We need to keep focusing on what will make students learn and what will make 100 percent of our school students achieve beyond their potential. Of course, it comes down to the expertise in front of the students, and whether the strategies teachers are using have an effect size above 0.4. As I have said, an initiative with an effect size between 0.4 and zero will be in the bottom half of the strategies that make kids learn. Some strategies would have an effect size of 0.01, which means there is a tiny improvement in students\u2019 achievement .\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c292f04a4f51476a89eaed0f9c2a9037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c292f04a4f51476a89eaed0f9c2a9037\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that I did not get to my feet quickly enough at the conclusion of the Hon Trevor Mallard\u2019s speech. I wanted to acknowledge his assistance with Supplementary Order Paper 177 on the Teachers Council amendments, in particular, and explain to him that although we discussed name suppression\u2014and I am keen to promote that on behalf of the Teachers Council\u2014we believe that going ahead with those changes at this time would be out of step with the work that my colleague the Hon Simon Power is also doing on name suppression within the criminal law system. Mr Power\u2019s bill has gone to a select committee, so the proposal is that we wait for that bill to come back to the House and ensure that whatever we do is in step with that legislation. Although we will be voting against the amendment today, we support doing something as soon as we possibly can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe second issue is to do with the proposal to increase the maximum fine. I am advised that this would be totally out of step with other provisions\u2014for instance, the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act, which has a maximum fine of $10,000 for the breach of a similar order. We need to make sure we are in step with other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EFinally, I say to Mr Davis that he is absolutely right, but unfortunately we cannot legislate for high-quality teaching. We know that it makes the most significant difference in schoolchildren\u2019s learning. The way we do that is through the support we put behind the teaching force with things like professional development, resources, tools, and techniques. It is the support that we put behind our teachers. Unfortunately, we cannot legislate for that quality; legislation changes the structure. Mr Davis is right with regard to the trades academies that we are attempting to change the structure to create new opportunities, and of course we will evaluate the effectiveness of those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce69761726c4513bef5084e5837da8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce69761726c4513bef5084e5837da8d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak on behalf of my colleague Catherine Delahunty, who is the Green Party\u2019s education spokesperson and a member of the Education and Science Committee, which considered the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). She has asked that I raise a number of points during the Committee stage today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has real concerns about a number of aspects of the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) and we will continue to oppose it. The areas of concern are those that have been outlined by submitters such as the Law Commission, the Human Rights Commission, and, of course, the early childhood education sector. The issue of limited-attendance centres for children and the loss of police vetting has had some media coverage and for good reason. The Green Party agrees with Labour that the rationale for removing safety aspects at creches in malls because they are not educational facilities does not stack up. The police vetting of staff working with children should be a bottom line, and we would like to see clarity as to which legislation protects children before those clauses are removed from the Education Act. I am aware that there is a Supplementary Order Paper on the Table to fix the situation, which the Green Party will support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe were also concerned about the issue of staff ratios. The whole approach to limited-attendance centres is classic laissez-faire politics. It sounds great to say that we should leave it to parental choice, but we do not think parents realise that standards will be removed from those centres. The baby is being thrown out with the bathwater, because regulation is allegedly bad and children\u2019s needs are not at the centre of the argument in these clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are opposed to the changes to out-of-zone enrolments\u2014again, we understand there is a Supplementary Order Paper to deal with that\u2014and the criteria that give priority to children of former pupils or board members from outside the zone for the school. That kind of privileging is not warranted in public schools. The Green Party is opposed to that provision and if there is the capacity to change it, we would certainly support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOne submitter raised the issue of the management of private schools, indicating that the bill has missed an opportunity to address recommendations from the Law Commission on a range of issues from suspension to governance. Although the Green Party does not prioritise issues in the private sector because we have our hands full trying to keep a free and equitable education ethos in the public school system of Aotearoa New Zealand, I know there are also Supplementary Order Papers on the Table on this issue, which may attract Green support. Children have human rights in all areas of education, private or public, and there are genuine gaps in the law and in the process of natural justice, so we are looking at those Supplementary Order Papers carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe also oppose the late amendments to the bill, which Labour and National presented to the select committee and education sector in the last stages of the process. It is not good practice to shoehorn even more complex elements into the bill and to expect the education sector to have any ownership of it. The provisions around broadening the powers of the Teachers Council to suspend teachers needs a much more careful discussion with the sector itself, and that has not happened. Therefore, despite parts of the bill appearing inoffensive, the Green Party will not support this bill, and we will not support the Labour Supplementary Order Paper concerning the Teachers Council. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45b7b6f205849b8aa4d457dfe88e6cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45b7b6f205849b8aa4d457dfe88e6cd\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I will respond to what the Minister of Education said about being unable to legislate for good teaching, or words to that effect. I agree with what she said, but I think that, as a Minister, she is the person who is able to create the conditions in which teachers can weave their magic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOne of the conditions that will have some effect is the provision of secondary-tertiary programmes. I would like to think that the Government could have taken the whole change of context idea a step further, and perhaps it could have introduced an idea that I raised in the second reading around specialist schools. Legislating for specialist schools could provide something similar to secondary-tertiary programmes, in that they change the context in which students are learning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI know that the ACT Party and the National Party often talk about choice for parents and students, but that choice normally revolves around a student in a decile 4 school in one part of a city being able to go across town during the day to a decile 8 school. That is fine for upwardly mobile folks, but it does not address the issue of choice for those who cannot get around cities. The problem is that a decile 4 school teaches basically the same sort of stuff that a decile 8 school teaches, whereas, with specialist schools, someone who lives in the middle of a city could, within 20 minutes, go to a school that offers a different type of learning, such as, specialisation in the arts, specialisation in sports, or specialisation in science or technology. The Minister could legislate for different contexts that provide real choice for parents and students, and I would like to lay that thought on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ETo go back to the parts of the bill we are debating, I point out my that colleague Trevor Mallard has already brought up the enrolment scheme priorities and changing the law so that the children of former pupils can attend the school their parents used to go to. How many students will pass National Certificate of Educational Achievement purely because they were able to attend the school their parents attended? We are talking about maybe a couple of hundred pupils at the most. It will not have an effect on the greater need of students across schools in New Zealand. So I fail to see why this provision has any real need to be discussed at a time such as this when we have more serious concerns\u2014for example, the fact that one child in five is failing. This adds nothing to the raising of student achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ELikewise, if there is someone who lives in the Hutt Valley but is a member of a board of trustees here in the city so that their child can go to a school here in the city, how many students are we talking about who will benefit from this? The critical mass of students across New Zealand will not have their educational standards lifted by this. I believe that it is just another example of education legislation focusing on the wrong issues when we should be fairly and squarely focusing on the aspects that will raise achievement the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI believe that there has been a change in position in relation to limited-attendance centres since the second reading. I thought that was silly lawmaking at its worst in that limited-attendance centres would not have to vet people who were going to work there. I thought that was absolutely ridiculous and, in fact, dangerous for the little kiddies who would be attending those limited-attendance centres. There is no way on earth that a parent taking their child by the hand to drop them off at a limited-attendance centre for a couple of hours while mum or dad goes and does the shopping\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f889a00bd7ac4c5faec2b822ce063eda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f889a00bd7ac4c5faec2b822ce063eda\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on a couple of matters. It may come as some surprise to members opposite\u2014and it might even wake up Paul Quinn, if I am lucky\u2014that I am going to speak about the fact that there is unnecessary law. I think that I have a reputation amongst members on the other side of the Chamber for liking big Government and lots of laws and regulation, which is grossly\u2014Colin King is nodding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f8443479b44d3b8e2a5186e2b5d222\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241293d42eedd40ea83dbbea61a398ca5\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: There we go. Well, this is the exception proving the rule. In particular, I will speak about the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 176, which some of us felt was more appropriately placed within the State Sector Management Bill because it is a matter of the organisation of the State sector, but we lost that debate with the current Chairperson earlier today as to its placement, and we respect his ruling entirely in that regard. But what this particular Supplementary Order Paper does is change where the policy function for tertiary education is placed. I can see that I really am not doing very well with Mr Quinn, at all. Currently that policy function is held within the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014I say to Mr Quinn that he needs to wave a white flag, not a blue one\u2014and it is to be transferred back to the Ministry of Education. That is not a position that we on this side of the House necessarily oppose. The functions of the Tertiary Education Commission have been overburdened. It has certainly had some issues with getting some of its core mandate completed, and the policy function did not always sit easily with the commission, so that is to be transferred to the Ministry of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe question we have on this side of the Chamber is why we need to do this at all through this process. Why are we doing this through a legislative process? We do not think it needs to be done in this way in any way, shape, or form. The reorganisation of the State sector does not necessarily require any kind of legislation. We had to do it earlier today in terms of Archives New Zealand and the National Library because of the statutory functions of the Chief Archivist, the National Librarian, and the Turnbull librarians. In the previous debate we were changing the parts of the Public Records Act and the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Act that deal with how we protect particular functions. On this side of the Chamber we felt that those protections were not adequate. That is not what this bill is about, though. This bill is simply about a policy function of a particular Government agency that the Government has decided to shift. On this side of the Chamber we do not have a problem with that concept, but we ask whether we are making law just for the sake of it here. Perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Education, might want to respond as to why we have gone down this path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe whole question of whether laws are required to do some of the things in this legislation also came up during the select committee process in respect of the issue of secondary-tertiary partnerships. There are, in fact, a number of very good models of secondary-tertiary partnerships in New Zealand, and that is covered in Part 1 of the bill. There are a number of such programmes, and members would have visited them. For example, there is the tertiary high school at Manukau Institute of Technology, which is an excellent model of working with kids\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e0d66e666444a89678ee3175973597\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: But they have legislation, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb156f014324a82a58781f61cc5e1a9\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr King that the question is whether legislation was needed\u2014that is the point. It is happening. The point I make is that it is under way. It is actually operating. One of the concerns expressed to members on this side of the House was that if we move into a more legislative framework around this matter, we would be restricting the flexibility that is inherent in making these sorts of programmes work. A lot of us know about different kinds of programmes like this around New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EConcern was expressed by some providers that if we start putting in tight legislative rules about how these secondary-tertiary partnerships operate, then they might not be able to continue to be the flexible, responsive kind of operations we want them to be. Again, we make it very clear that members on this side of the Chamber are strongly supportive of partnerships like this. In fact, we need more of them. We need to make sure that children who are not coping in the traditional environment of secondary schools have a vehicle with which to continue in training and education. I am sure that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Anne Tolley, is nodding. She may well have visited the Manukau campus, too. It is an excellent model, but it is not the perfect model for every town, region, and city in New Zealand, and other models can be explored. This matter is covered in clause 10, which will insert new sections 31A to 31L into the Education Act 1989. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe question we ask is whether we are restricting ourselves. We do not oppose this move, but it seems that on both these counts the law may be unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022edbe9a3d89fd45aeb1fd26977323ed7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edbe9a3d89fd45aeb1fd26977323ed7c\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond briefly to the point made by Kelvin Davis about clause 6, \u201CHow to select applicants who live outside the home zone\u201D, particularly in relation to new section 11F(1)(d). Mr Davis argued against why we might want to include this provision, and I will give an opposing point of view to his. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI believe that this paragraph provides for tradition in a world where we have become increasingly transient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d816a820d0854f60a110063659c95927\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Inherited rights to go to a State school\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022674544ac740f413c807e3814cd6aa7e2\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Members should listen to me. We end up as Diaspora all around the world and around New Zealand. It is like a marae, if for some reason someone could not go back to their marae because they no longer lived in the area. I think that within all sorts of schools, across the decile levels, as families stay in those schools over time they build whakapapa, tikanga, and tradition, which encourages a sense of community that I believe we are losing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI think this provision helps to build community across all the deciles. From that point of view, when brothers and sisters can go back and be part of those schools and those communities it builds tradition, and I think that is a very good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222813597bc6a14155898ff17571fa3fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222813597bc6a14155898ff17571fa3fbe\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I look forward to having that debate on the hustings. Mr Quinn is saying that people can go to Hutt Valley High School because their parents went there but people who live a lot closer cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a8f7c86a86406792147dda7bda6d29\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: After\u2014after you\u2019ve got that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daa4deac9e3040fab6c81968096db806\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I make it very clear to Colin King that the way the system works is that there is a zone, and when there is a lot of demand on a zone, it shrinks. There will always be someone who is just outside the border who, if the inherited rights did not apply, would have got in to a school because the zone would have been bigger. Colin King knows that. I look forward to the people who are on the wrong side of Waiwhet\u016B Road saying that they would have got into Hutt Valley High School if it was not for the Government\u2019s rules that have inherited rights for people to go to Hutt Valley High School. That is what will happen. That is the way it will work. Colin King knows that. I look forward to debating that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230277b1cea7e4ad1b39478df03be40be\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t. Nor does Allan Peachey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb11ef3802504473aece1d885e7d8e4c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Allan Peachey does not think there should be zones at all. Allan Peachey thinks we should just be able to flog any kid from anywhere and the principal should decide. Those were the rules under a former National Government before zoning came in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI go back to a point that my colleague Grant Robertson made\u2014that is, the way we are shaping up education legislation. When I was the Minister of Education there was a general review of education legislation going on. I do not know whether we made a lot of progress on it over 6 years, but there was a hope to get a new education Act that was slimmed down and did the things that legislation needed to do. I see that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Education, is nodding; that review is still ongoing. It will be good to see it and do some work on it. The idea was to remove from the Education Act the stuff that did not need to be in legislation. I see the Minister is nodding that this is occurring under the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMy question for her is: why, then, are we putting into legislation which Government agency should run the policy function for tertiary education? That does not need to be in legislation. A Cabinet minute is fine. A Cabinet minute would cover that. I think something has happened similar to a couple of little boys having a competition to see who can pee further up a wall. The Ministry of Education won, and it wants that written into legislation. That is essentially what happened. There is no need for it at all. All it is proof of is who won the competition. It is proof of who won the competition, and that could have been in a Cabinet minute rather\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ca5c687ad64302b683f49e093a2d15\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Get some sleep, man. Get some sleep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fff0efb44ab4d99b7b9fdcf368ba138\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I hope to get some sleep. I hope to be out of here by midnight tonight, if not half-past 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other point that I will make is very similar. In fact, it is probably more important. It is about the secondary-tertiary programmes in the bill. I reinforce what my colleague said. There are a lot of very good programmes going on around the country. There are not enough, and not all of them are good, but there are a lot that are good. They are running very well at the moment, as a result of the application of ministerial discretion and occasional Cabinet decisions. They work. That is all that is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe problem is that when we start putting that sort of detail into legislation, it gets quite hard to change. The flexibility is lost. The ability to take the moment and to move when a community is ready to go is lost. There is a danger that the community will not only have to come back to Cabinet but also have to come back to Parliament to make the change. We all know that could take a couple of years. I think we also all know that when communities are ready to move in this area, they do not want to do it slowly, and they should not have to do it slowly. We should not be a brake on innovation. I accept that the Minister is genuine and she thinks this will help. I just warn her that it will make it worse, not better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022644e31083227430390dc0178bd22bcbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644e31083227430390dc0178bd22bcbb\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I take a brief call on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). In many ways we are largely in agreement on the aspects that were being talked about. I will pick up on a couple of points. One is the secondary-tertiary interface. The option of partnership, which has been taken up, is the right one. That was certainly reinforced by many of the people who spoke in submissions at the Education and Science Committee. I think this is where education is heading towards: encouraging many more of our young people through school, and if school is not an appropriate vehicle for them, enabling them to move on to a tertiary education system that provides them with more flexibility in order to carry on and, in a sense, regain that confidence in schooling. The Manukau Institute of Technology, which has started this, has been mentioned. That went through in an earlier piece of legislation late last year or earlier this year. Fine work has been done there by Stuart Middleton, who is a former teacher of mine who actually taught me in the seventh form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbaed8ac84724ca49fdd3c17befd6e91\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t do a very good job!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229185ac064809491b8b90cf3cff862695\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he has been around for a while, I have to say, but he is still looking pretty good for his age\u2014in fact, he does not look very different. I will send him the Hansard at the end of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223991312b2a5f42438c8a8602212aef15\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What about you? Do you look different?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ea7a0e491648b3840fdd5390b68e5d\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: I look very different from the way I did back then! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will comment on something that has not been picked up yet, which is the\u2014again, welcome\u2014change with regard to the refund provision for international students. I reinforce what has already been said about the period during which international students on courses of 3 months or longer can withdraw from the course and receive a refund of their course fees. It really helps a lot of the waka-jumping that has continued to happen. It will protect many of the institutions that have actually felt very much disadvantaged by the fact that this has been able to happen. The refund provisions here will help protect and strengthen our institutions, and not put them at an economic or financial disadvantage as a result of this occurring. I think it is a welcome step, and again it is a part of this bill that seeks to tidy up a lot of the extraneous types of things that are not really affecting our education system profoundly, but nevertheless will help it to be much better than it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOn that note, it was great to see the OECD report come out earlier this week that showed that in maths and science we are in the top five in the OECD, and in reading we are in the top 10. But\u2014and I think the \u201Cbut\u201D is significant\u2014the range between the top and the bottom was one of the widest in the OECD. In part that is because our top is so high, but also it is because our bottom\u2014particularly amongst Pasifika and M\u0101ori kids\u2014is so low. If there is one area we could focus on, and in part the secondary-tertiary interface being improved will help, it is making sure that those kids at the bottom end actually get helped up and pushed into continuing on with tertiary education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E I echo some of my colleagues\u2019 position on the enrolment scheme priorities. We will obviously not oppose this, but I am not so sure that I agree with Chris Tremain on the issue of tradition. I think traditions are a fine thing, but it speaks to privilege and access more than it does to tradition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWith those short remarks on those three or four key points, I say that those are the interventions I would like to make. I look forward to this legislation going through, this evening. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb96bca8a3c44ab99f49c55d40fbb8bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb96bca8a3c44ab99f49c55d40fbb8bd\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I too will respond to Chris Tremain\u2019s comments and his analogy about not accessing one\u2019s own marae if one lives way away from it. Quite frankly, I would just go to the nearest marae, just like if my children could not go to the school that I went to, I would send them to the nearest school. This is exactly what I have done in Kait\u0101ia. I grew up in Kawakawa, an hour and a half\u2019s drive south, and it would not be practical for me to bus my kids down to the school I went to, so I just send them to the local school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI will address the amendment from the Hon Trevor Mallard inserting new section 35RB after new section 35R in clause 11 of the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). Subsection 1 of 35RB says: \u201CAny student who is facing suspension or expulsion from attendance at a school registered under section 35A, or the parents of that student, may request details of that school\u2019s disciplinary procedures.\u201D I think that is common sense. In fact, it was my impression as a former principal that schools were meant to put out to their community their complaints procedure at the start. So, if a parent or a student\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f02c38a06a4dab9d0fc7311f039a35\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: State schools have it, but private schools don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954be0a5137c4e1ab5adc092191b882c\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Private schools do not have that requirement. That to me is an inequity and should be remedied. Private schools should be required to put out their complaints procedures to parents so that if there is a complaint, they know the procedure to go through so that little complaints do not get blown up out of proportion. I think this is just an extension of the requirement that disciplinary procedures be put out to parents and to students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESomething else I will add is that a student\u2019s disciplinary record should be put out, too. When dealing with the misbehaviour of students as a principal, I know that in the case of a lot of parents we would notify them when their child misbehaved, but when the child got to the point that he or she was going to be stood down or suspended, the parents came storming in and said that they had not been informed. We would be able to pull out a record of the times we had informed the parents by way of letters and phone calls that their child had misbehaved. That requirement could also be included somehow, so that parents have the complaints procedures first of all, they have the disciplinary procedures, and they have their child\u2019s disciplinary record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENew section 35R itself is, I believe, unfair on State schools. Subsection (2) states: \u201CUnless the student is within a reasonable time reinstated at the school or enrolled at some other registered school,\u201D\u2014this is if they have been excluded\u2014\u201Cthe Secretary must \u2026 (a) arrange for the student to be enrolled at some other reasonably convenient registered school that the student can attend; or (b) direct the board of a State school that is not an integrated school to enrol the student at the school;\u201D. I find that a bit unfair. As a State school whenever we, sadly, excluded students from our school we did not have the facility for them to have the Secretary for Education direct the board of a private school to enrol them. It is really unfair that private schools can dump their unwanted kids on State schools and the State schools then have to manage them as best they can within the resourcing private schools have. Really that is a bit of discrimination, in my mind, towards State schools in that they have to deal with the students that have been excluded or expelled from private schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWith that, I say that Labour will not support this bill. Going back to the reasons that I started off my speech with, my personal feeling is that the five main parts of this bill do not actually address what we really need to address in education. I would hate to see us come back for a third education bill at some stage in the near future. I would hate to come back in a few weeks or months in the new year and debate further issues that will not really make a significant difference to raising the achievement of the critical mass of our students. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003Eto omit subclauses (1) and (2) and substitute the following subclauses:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E(1)\tSection 11F(1) is amended by repealing paragraph (d).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E(2)\tSection 11F(1)(e) is amended by omitting \u201Cfifth\u201D and substituting \u201Cfourth\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E(3)\tSection 11F(2) is amended by omitting \u201Cor fifth\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ddb9fe9c906458695ebe4b343bb2a9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000760\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 11 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000761\u0022\u003Eto insert the following sections after section 35R:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000762\u0022\u003E\u201C35RA\tProcedural requirements for suspension and expulsion\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000763\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tWhen a student has been suspended, the student\u2019s parents have the right to request that the suspension be lifted or varied, and to make submissions in support of their request.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000764\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tBefore expelling or excluding a student, schools should be required to\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000765\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tgive adequate notice of the proposed expulsion or exclusion to the student and his or her parents:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000766\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tprovide the student and his or her parents with a reasonable opportunity to attend and be heard at a meeting.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000767\u0022\u003E\u201C35RB\tPrivate schools\u2019 disciplinary procedures available on request\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000768\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tAny student who is facing suspension or expulsion from attendance at a school registered under section 35A, or the parents of that student, may request details of that school\u2019s disciplinary procedures.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000769\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tWhen a request under subsection (1) is received, the school must provide details of its disciplinary procedures within 5 working days.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221229a71c9d4949af82f617ce5ea34de7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000770\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 183 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clause 12DA and to clause 12E be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6afb45eabe2435d9b7b9d775b1ce941\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 5; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000771\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 183 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clause 12DB be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022956d8e2a1d104f818818ee69c1c3fbd6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 5; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000772\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 186 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clause 12DC be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022829ecf70f0ce486da9bd63c6667180cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645923432baa4b1c9db76d52ef6cba8a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the Minister\u2019s amendments as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 176 and Supplementary Order Paper 177. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a8911bac914cc9bf9f2cb845f5a355\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. They are separate Supplementary Order Papers. I want to make it clear that you will have separate votes on each of them, because we have a different position on each one. We support one but do not support the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022306bb4c667984069a9f931015ebbe4ac\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: We will put them separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 176 in the name of the Hon Anne Tolley to insert new clauses 14A and 14B be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223641107a974e4d0884171bb5cb745101\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000777\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 177 in the name of the Hon Anne Tolley to clause 12 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000778\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6596e7dc3b647098c8c8e4b3b1e2f5a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 38\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 33; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225eac096d5f76411b8a9ce680e9ca1f60\u0022\u003ENew Part 1A  Amendments to the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a65e339a45554254b7a3cba2ab0ca998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a65e339a45554254b7a3cba2ab0ca998\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E This is the path that I think we have finally come to, and if we had come to the agreement earlier than we have come to now, we probably would have come to it on 9 December rather than 11 December. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c39a8bf21d5148df8fad7579f78afdd6\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re still on the 9th, aren\u2019t we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748aa8b8fe294cb38a98c11583967942\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: We might be on 9 December on the wall, and the member might be living in the past, but outside it is Saturday. I think it is fair to say that we are here today unnecessarily, as a result of the failure on the part of the Government to reach a compromise on this bill. I think all members in the Committee know that it has been my strong personal view, and the view of Labour, that the removal of police checks for adults looking after children in gymnasium and shop creches, was an error. There was a lot of debate about whether that removal was intended. The Minister, on the first reading of the bill, indicated that that was not the intention, but it then became clear that the papers she had received earlier had made the fact clear that that was occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe fact is that wiser heads have intervened, and we have reached a point now where we are reinstating police checks, through the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992. I frankly do not care what the legislative vehicle is. The key thing, as far as I am concerned, is that the law of New Zealand is the law of New Zealand. If the law of New Zealand says that people who are looking after children in that situation have to have police checks\u2014as it currently does\u2014the idea that those checks will be withdrawn is not acceptable. I do not mind, at all, which vehicle is used to ensure that children are protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI emphasise that this is not a total protection. I think all of us know from the cases that go before the Teachers Council that a lot of people who have been vetted, end up offending against children. In fact, some of the most sickening conversations I have had in my life have been with chairs and directors of the Teachers Council, and have related to cases where people in positions of trust have abused children. This bill will not stop that happening. It will not stop it happening in limited-attendance centres, but it will give the opportunity for the police to indicate the times in the past when there has been a conviction, or even when there has been an investigation or a suspicion. The police, quite often in these situations, deal with a lot of cases that do not go close to prosecution because of the age of the child or the quality of the evidence. But a flag is still kept on an individual\u2019s record, which would mean they would fail when getting a check. I also say that a lot of people will not have been caught. There is a possibility of their getting through the system, so people should be very careful about relying on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMy view is that it is always better, whatever sort of early childhood centre it is, for it to have a lot of glass in its walls. I think there is a very big protection in having children and adults being able to be viewed from other rooms at all times, so that there is no temptation, and so that kids cannot be in corners or in cupboards. Unfortunately, the sorts of creches that are set up too often in gymnasia and shopping areas do not have that sort of openness. They are more likely to have ad hoc arrangements. I do not want to describe them as cupboards, but I have seen converted storerooms, which I think are not good places in which to keep kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAlthough we covered the issue in Part 1, I am sure the Chair will not mind if I go back and say I accept that some of the regulation in that area went too far; we have removed that. But with the removal of police checks we went further than we should have. In particular, I thank Gerry Brownlee and Simon Power for their work in this area, because I think we have now got to a reasonable situation. It shows that we as a Parliament are determined not to weaken the law around the protection of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221c0459fb5b6949c982cf2fb6a8749c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c0459fb5b6949c982cf2fb6a8749c1f\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree entirely that it is sensible that police checks have been put back in the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). The fact is that police vetting has to occur for employees working in creches. I doubt that there is a parent who would go off to do their shopping with their child in hand and, wanting to leave their child at a limited-attendance centre, who would ask employees whether they had been police vetted and whether they had any convictions for child abuse, because nobody would say yes. So I think that is a necessary protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, it will not totally eliminate untoward things happening to little kiddies in those limited attendance centres, but it is a measure of protection. It will give parents a lot more confidence in leaving their children in places such as in shopping malls. So I am grateful that this has occurred and that there has been some sort of compromise, so that this protection has been given back to these kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI also agree that there needs to be the type of protections that the Hon Trevor Mallard spoke about, such as for glassed-in areas. As a former principal I used to instruct staff, male staff in particular, not to put themselves in compromising situations or be left in a room with girls on their own. It is an unfortunate fact, but we had to provide those protections for our male staff to make sure that there would be no opportunity for anything untoward to happen and no opportunity for any accusations to be made about them. It is good that this measure has been reversed so the parents of these kiddies in the limited-attendance centres in malls will have confidence that their kids will be looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis is a short call just to say that I think it is good. It is appropriate. It was a silly part to overlook in the original bill, and it is great that this has been remedied. As I said, parents can take their kids to those limited-attendance day-care centres and have just that extra measure of faith that their kids will be well looked after. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new Part 1A be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EPart 1A\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAmendments to the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E14A\tPrincipal Act amended\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis Part amends the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E14B\tInterpretation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESection 2(1) is amended by inserting the following definitions in their appropriate alphabetical order:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201Climited child care centre means any premises used regularly for the care of 3 or more children (not being children of the persons providing the care, or children enrolled at a school being provided with care before or after school) under the age of 6, none of whom attends for any period exceeding 2 hours per day, in circumstances where the children\u2019s parents or caregivers are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tin close proximity to the children and are able to be contacted; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\table to resume responsibility for the children at short notice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201Climited child care service provider means the body, agency, or person who or that operates a limited child care centre\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E14C\tPurpose\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this Part is to ensure that only suitable people are employed to supervise children in limited child care centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E14D\tNew sections 13A to 13E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe following new heading and sections are inserted after section 13:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201CEducation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201CDuties of employers in relation to Police vetting of employees at limited child care centres\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C13A\tLimited child care centre employees must be suitable\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EA limited child care service provider must take all practicable steps to ensure every employee employed to care for children in a limited child care centre is suitable for that role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C13B\tPolice vetting of employees at limited child care centres\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe service provider of a limited child care centre must obtain a Police vet of every person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\twhom the service provider employs, or intends to employ, in a position at the limited child care centre; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\twho is to work at the service during normal opening hours; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\twho is not a registered teacher or holder of a limited authority to teach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C13C\tPolice vetting of contractors and their employees who work at limited child care centres\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tThe service provider of a limited child care centre must obtain a Police vet of every contractor, or the employee of a contractor, who has, or is likely to have, unsupervised access to children at the centre during normal opening hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tIn this section, contractor means a person who, under contract (other than an employment contract), works at a limited child care centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C13D\tPolice vet must be obtained before person has unsupervised access to children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tA Police vet required under section 13B or 13C must be obtained before the person has, or is likely to have, unsupervised access to children at the centre during normal opening hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tThe service provider of a limited child care centre that is required under section 13B or 13C to obtain a Police vet of a person must apply for the vet no later than 2 weeks after the person begins work at the centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C13E\tProcedures relating to Police vets under section 13B or 13C\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe service provider of a limited child care centre that applies for a Police vet of a person under section 13B or 13C\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tmust ensure that strict confidentiality is observed for Police vets; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tmust not take adverse action in relation to a person who is the subject of a Police vet until\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tthe person has validated the information contained in the vet; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tthe person has been given a reasonable opportunity to validate the information, but has failed to do so within a reasonable period.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENew Part 1A agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e274063500c4e7e9727eae5eca875d0\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277aa462f292f48adb514fb6436949d2a\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c63ee2087cc4f999890afa11add4245\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa775599bc714b4588a15667f0aaeb0c\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000832\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Anne Tolley be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000833\u0022\u003Eto cause the enacting words, clauses 1, 2, and 3, and Parts 1 and 2 to be a separate bill, to omit the Part 2 heading, and to substitute for the enacting words, clauses 1, 2, and 3, and Part 1 heading the following enacting words and clauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000834\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000835\u0022\u003EThe Parliament of New Zealand enacts as follows:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000836\u0022\u003E1\tTitle\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000837\u0022\u003EThis Act is the Education Amendment Act (No 2) 2010.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000838\u0022\u003E2\tCommencement\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000839\u0022\u003E(1)\tSections 15 to 17 come into force 6 months after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000840\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe rest of this Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000841\u0022\u003E3\tPrincipal Act amended\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000842\u0022\u003EThis Act amends the Education Act 1989.; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000843\u0022\u003Eto cause Part 1A to be a separate bill, and to substitute for the Part 1A heading the following enacting words and clauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000844\u0022\u003EThe Parliament of New Zealand enacts as follows:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000845\u0022\u003E1\tTitle\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000846\u0022\u003EThis Act is the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Act 2010.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000847\u0022\u003E2\tCommencement\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000848\u0022\u003EThis Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000849\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000850\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill, pursuant to the amendment in the name of the Hon Anne Tolley.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000851\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000852\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bbcd279c2c540379cb3c33881f2ed1c\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bbcd279c2c540379cb3c33881f2ed1c\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272abfd00f48c41bab6c712c82d50fbfe\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00226cbb905f47cf4588847aae1c8e5b485e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cbb905f47cf4588847aae1c8e5b485e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Health and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe Education Amendment Bill (No 2) amends the Education Act 1989. The changes in this bill will enable the establishment of secondary-tertiary programmes, reduce the compliance burden on limited-attendance centres, protect the sustainability of New Zealand\u2019s export education sector, improve the law affecting private schools, make minor changes to school enrolment scheme priorities, and make changes to help the Teachers Council safeguard children and maintain teacher quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe first significant amendment will introduce secondary-tertiary programmes, enabling the establishment of this Government\u2019s ground-breaking trades academies from the beginning of next year. Trades academies will provide students with clear pathways, giving them a head start on training for industry-related qualifications and smoother access to employment. Trades academies will motivate more students to stay engaged in learning and training by providing them with a greater number of options for study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003ESecondary-tertiary programmes are particularly important because they allow students to remain enrolled in school while also studying towards a full qualification with a tertiary provider. The framework introduced by this bill makes sure that secondary-tertiary programmes will be high-quality and that accountability for the delivery of these programmes is clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe second significant amendment in the bill will reduce the compliance burden for limited-attendance centres by exempting them from the licensing standards for early childhood education. Although they will no longer be subject to early childhood education regulatory requirements for education plans, qualified teachers, and space and ratio specifications, they will now be subject to requirements by the operators of the facility and to legislative requirements to ensure the safety and welfare of the children. But parents also have a responsibility to make sure that their children are in a safe place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill will enable the relevant Minister to set, through a notice in the New Zealand Gazette, refund provisions for international students enrolled at private training establishments for courses of 3 months or more. These changes will minimise the undesirable consequences associated with international students changing provider shortly after they arrive in New Zealand. The bill will reduce the financial incentive for students to change provider in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe bill updates and clarifies the law affecting private schools in response to the Law Commission report, Private Schools and the Law. It also amends the enrolment scheme priorities for out-of-zone students by giving some priority to children of board members and children of former pupils, recognising the heritage of many of our schools and the strong family links formed in many communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe legislation also makes some changes to the legislation affecting the Teachers Council. I am grateful to the Education and Science Committee for including these changes to the legislation and to the House for agreeing to a further amendment to ensure that suspended teachers need not be automatically dismissed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EAn anomaly in current law means that the Teachers Council can take a range of actions as a result of a complaint about conduct or competence, but not as a result of a mandatory report. The bill corrects that anomaly and allows that these actions include, but not be limited to, the annotation of the teachers register. This change will ensure that teachers who may be a danger to student welfare or who are otherwise unsuitable can quickly be removed from the classroom while their case is investigated. The current law technically requires boards of trustees to dismiss a teacher who is the subject of an interim suspension, and in many cases this may be unfair. This requirement too has been clarified so that an employer of a teacher is not forced to dismiss a teacher who has been suspended while their case is investigated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill clarifies that the principal adviser to the Government on tertiary education policy is the Ministry of Education. The bill also clarifies the role of the Tertiary Education Commission, requiring it to advise the Minister on the implementation of policy relating to tertiary education. These changes will introduce greater clarity in the functions of the Ministry of Education and the Tertiary Education Commission. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a674cf1cbbfa4e08bbd176e662691568\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a674cf1cbbfa4e08bbd176e662691568\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will be opposing this legislation. I say that more in sadness than in anger, because it actually contains quite a few provisions that Labour supports. It includes policy that Labour supports but thinks is unnecessary to put into legislation. There is a combination of quite a lot of good stuff in this legislation, including the amendments that were made late in respect of the Teachers Council, which involved a degree of cooperation. I think it is fair to say there was searching questioning from the Greens at the Education and Science Committee. Those of use who are slightly more familiar with the problems that teachers can cause in schools and sometimes the urgency of getting it sorted were maybe less concerned about process and more concerned about the immediacy of kids. There is always a fine balance, and I think it is fair to say we were on one side of a boundary and the Greens were on another. It is not a big division. While I am speaking about the select committee and what happened there, I thank again Allan Peachey, who chairs the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e02d8e1c59546e581741f0bdc153d4a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He should\u2019ve been the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e60d7dba0d41a7ab9fd2013815d4e4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is fair to say that he does a good job of sorting out what is contentious and what is not, getting rid of the non-contentious stuff, identifying any room to move where things are contentious, and, if there is not, making it clear. Members accept that. The process generally works well. I have never heard people who have come to that committee say that they have not had a fair hearing. That is not something we could say about all select committees. It does not mean that people always agree with the results, but that is politics and that is life. In current circumstances, I wish Allan Peachey well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are some things that Labour disagrees with in this legislation. In the earlier stage, Chris Tremain referred to the inherited rights to attend a State school. It is just a straight question of what one believes in. Labour does not believe that people should inherit their rights to attend a State school. We think that the priority should go to people who live closer to those schools, and the idea that some people must go further away in order to give up their places to others who have rights based on who sired them or who their mother was is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere is an acceptance that the limited-attendance centres legislation that Labour introduced fairly late when it was in Government went a step too far, because it treated those early childhood education centres areas as being for very short-term care with no pretence of education. The changes that have occurred now come closer to getting a balance. I want to place on record at the third reading that Labour campaigned to ensure that police checks are maintained for people who supervise young children at limited-attendance centres, and those checks have been maintained. We will support at the third reading the changes to the Health and Safety in Employment Act, but we will be opposing the changes to the Education Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere are some other matters, and I want to focus on the Law Commission\u2019s report Private Schools and the Law. Through the debate, this issue probably has not had the focus that it should have, and I think many people work on an assumption that all schools publish their disciplinary procedures and that all schools, including private schools, follow due process in implementing those disciplinary procedures. But, unfortunately, that is not the case. There have been a number of examples recently. I know quite well a couple of examples where schools have not followed the process. I can accept the fact that I was ignorant in the area. I was the Minister of Education for 6 years and I sat on the select committee for a couple of years, but I was not aware that we had a vacuum in the law on the rules until the Law Commission reported on it. I accept that the current Minister of Education picked up a couple of the recommendations, but I do not think she provided a good explanation for not picking up the rest of them. When a Law Commission report recommends draft changes, it has to be a question of whether we will implement the changes, and if not, why not. The Law Commission conducts very thorough research, and the assumption is that its recommendations will be implemented. That is not always the case, and clearly the Government can take a different point of view, but the Minister has not provided us with any reasons why the recommendations are not to be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe next point I make\u2014and I will put myself in some relatively dubious company here\u2014is that I support Cameron Slater in the comments he has made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9455d7c7d114878b1bd1c88ed9bd56a\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t even support Cameron Slater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f369731eba6b40a39e2a37ca20c1752a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, Cameron Slater hardly supports National any more, but I will support the comments he made on the way that teachers\u2019 names are suppressed when there is no good reason for that to happen. The Teachers Council rules are currently drafted\u2014and I am not blaming the Teachers Council\u2014so that there is a $1,000 fine. It could draft all the rules it likes, but if the maximum penalty for a breach is $1,000, then media organisations will breach. The point that Cameron Slater makes is absolutely correct\u2014that is, there are a lot of teachers whose names are blackened as a result of the activities of a very few. Having a presumption of openness for the hearings and the ability to suppress the names of the victims currently does not exist. The cases are either opened or closed, and there is no suppression ability. If we could have that sort of arrangement\u2014it probably would not satisfy Cameron Slater, who might want to have all of the details\u2014it would go a long way as far as most reasonable media is concerned in order to not have names blackened in those particular cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESeeing that the Minister of Justice is in the House and he is bringing in legislation, I presume, to deal with the courts, he might like to note that I have a question relating to those organisations that have rules so out of date and much poorer than those of, for example, the medical, legal, and accounting professions. I ask whether as he changes the rules for the court, he can consider mirror legislation and create a package where all of those professions are considered together rather than separately. I think it is fair to say that the principles are very similar. In fact, the principles that he has outlined are so good that I picked them up and incorporated them into a Supplementary Order Paper that the Committee decided not to pick up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d397b042d164ec9bf2987cf543ad0a4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s part of the Criminal Procedure Bill, so it\u2019s actually tacked on to another piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045eee6edbdf489ba30fc7668638a8bc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sure that the Business Committee would be quite supportive if the member wanted to consider an omnibus bill. I am not sure whether the Clerk of the House would be entirely supportive, but I am sure that the Business Committee would be supportive of an omnibus bill in order to get all of those related matters out together. I think having consistency through that legislation would be a good idea. It might be the last refuge of fools, but having different rules, especially when we are doing a total rewrite in both areas, does not seem to me to be logical. It might actually help the ministry to get on with its basic redraft of legislation, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI thank the House for moving to accept the maintenance of protection of little children who are in care. We will all be voting for that part at the third reading because it is a separate vote, but we will not be supporting the bill, because there is too much that is wrong in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9b2bf4878343ae89ca19780b6f7056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9b2bf4878343ae89ca19780b6f7056\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a brief call in the third reading of the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). I will focus on one particular area, and it is a point that was well made by the other side of the House. Quite often we have too much regulation around education. I direct that comment particularly to new clauses 31A through to 31L. My experience in respect of the secondary-tertiary programmes is that there is a considerable push-back within the curriculum and academia largely to do with the people who want to spawn, grow, and develop programmes that will aid people who are hands-on learners. I disagreed with Trevor Mallard when he said that these things can happen already. The truth of the matter is that there needs to be direction from the Government to make sure that the seeds of these initiatives are allowed to develop and grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EOn that basis, it gives me great pleasure to support the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), so that we can see a lot more growth and diversity and innovation, and it is not stymied by the difficulties of fitting within periods and structures of the academic curriculum of today. I certainly support this bill\u2019s passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00229832e677de3849a489fdee5f75444b23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229832e677de3849a489fdee5f75444b23\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EMr Deputy Speaker, tuatahi m\u0101ku me whai w\u0101hi ahau ki te mihi atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 tu\u0101hine a te H\u014Dnore Hekia Parata, kua tohua hei Minita o te Karauna i t\u0113r\u0101 wiki kua pahure ake nei, i te w\u0101hanga o te tautohetohe. Kua wareware ahau ki te mihi atu ki a koe, H\u0113kia. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe m\u014D t\u0113nei h\u014Dnoretanga hei runga i \u014D pokowhiwhi, me k\u012B, hei runga i a t\u0101tou te iwi M\u0101ori. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[The first thing for me to do, Mr Deputy Speaker, is to set aside a moment in the debate so that I can acknowledge that sister politician of ours, the Hon Hekia Parata, who was appointed a Crown Minister just last week. I forgot to do that, Hekia. Congratulations on this honour placed upon your shoulders\u2014let us say, upon us, the M\u0101ori people. Well done, congratulations, and good on you.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ELabour will not support the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), aside from the part Trevor Mallard has just mentioned that protects children in day-care centres. I am glad about that, because I believe that the bill will do very little to raise achievement, whereas I believe that all education legislation and education policy should be targeted at raising achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI think we spend too much time focusing on peripheral issues, such as whether children should have hereditary rights to attend the schools their parents went to. I think that is a total waste of our time. Perhaps when we have covered all the other main issues in education, which would take a number of decades I believe, then we might finally get to that issue, which might be at the top of the priority list, but right now it is, in my opinion, way down at the bottom of the list. We should be focusing on the core issues that will raise achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI have already spoken a couple of times in the House about making sure that teachers are given the conditions in which they can weave their magic. It is up to us in this House to create those conditions as politicians and as policy makers. We need to make sure teachers understand that they have to account for the effect size on the strategies they use. They need to know and prove that what they are doing in classrooms, in tertiary institutions, or in early childhood centres is making a difference. They need to question their practice and they need to have those skills. That is what we need to be legislating for and it is what we need to have policy on\u2014making sure teachers can question the efficacy or otherwise of their practice, challenge their assumptions, and go on to make changes where necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe should aim for 100 percent of our students right across New Zealand to leave school at the end of year 13 with a National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) level 3, or university entrance on top of that. I do not think we do enough to engage kids in school. That is something else that teachers need to be able to do\u2014engage students at school right through until the end of year 13. Research states that the success of students in their adult lives is not so dependent on how high their qualifications are, but rather on the length of time they spend at school. So in other words, if a student stays at school right until the end of year 13 and achieves only NCEA level 1, they have more chance of being successful as an adult then if they got NCEA level 1 in year 11 and then dropped out. So we need to encourage students and create the conditions where students will stay at school right through to the end of year 13. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe need to work with parents, as well. It is about engaging parents in the education of their children, so that they set in their children\u2019s minds at the very earliest age and consistently apply the expectation that their kids will stay in school until the end of year 13. A student would be better off eating their lunch for 13 years at school than dropping out in year 9, year 10, or year 11\u2014but I do not want people to think that is what I am encouraging students to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe really, really need to support our teachers with professional development. This morning I was up just north of Wellsford at the opening of a marae, and I heard a story from Bishop Kito P\u012Bkaahu. I thought it was the perfect metaphor to describe the place of professional development. He told us a story about two men who were given an axe each and told to go and clear a hill of scrub. One guy had to clear the left-hand side of the hill and the other guy had to clear the right-hand side of the hill. The guy who was clearing the left-hand side of the hill was known to be a hard worker who could work from dawn to dusk without stopping. The other guy was not quite so athletic, and he decided that every hour he would take a 10-minute break. At the end of the day when they came back down, the guy who worked his guts out without stopping had cleared three-quarters of the hill. The guy who took a 10-minute break every hour had cleared the whole side of the hill. The guy who worked his guts out could not understand why that had happened, so he asked the other guy: \u201CWhy is it that you were able to clear the whole side of the hill?\u201D. The other guy said: \u201CWell, every time I sat down for a 10-minute break I sharpened my axe.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThat is a metaphor for always making sure that teachers have regular time to sharpen their tools and to hone their skills. There is no point for them to just go on working and slogging their guts out for 10, 15, or 20 years without having regular professional development where they can sharpen their axe, their tools. I think we need to create the conditions where teachers are able to do that. We need to support teachers; we do not need to keep hammering away, driving them like slaves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI already said in the Committee stage that this bill looks at secondary-tertiary programmes, and I think those programmes do have merit. I know there is no evidence to say that they will definitely make a difference to a student\u2019s education, but I think there is a perfect opportunity for researchers to follow them for the next 5 or 10 years in order to determine whether they actually make a difference. I really hope they do work, because they change the context in which students are learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe programmes give an element of choice to students who are not comfortable or not succeeding in the traditional school setting. Those students have the opportunity to go off and to work in a tertiary setting. The programmes are mainly apprenticeships, which is great. We need to encourage students to follow different avenues. But I do have a concern that those students who have the brains, particularly if they are difficult students to teach, may be encouraged to head off down a trade-type line instead of being encouraged to stay in school. Regardless of those side issues, I think it is an opportunity worth exploring, and one I think we should take further in terms of changing the context in which students can learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe should set up specialist schools, or perhaps a pilot in an inner-city area, where parents have the choice not to send their children to just a regular school where they do maths, science, social studies, and English but instead to, say, an arts school. The children still learn to read and write but they would do that around the theme of art. They could learn about art history, they could practise different types of art, they could learn dance, they could learn drama, or they could learn to sculpt. The students could do whatever. The school would be based around a particular context and a particular theme so that the children, hopefully, are engaged in their learning. For example, if we wanted to teach a child in a regular school how to play the violin, we would have to hope that someone who could play the violin got a job there as a music teacher, whereas if we had an arts school where music was part of the curriculum, the school could apply especially for a violin teacher and we expect that teacher, who could play the violin, would have an intense passion and flair for what he or she was teaching and a love of that subject. We would hope that having that teacher would get better results, because he or she could bring that passion into the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAgain, I say I am glad. We will vote against this legislation other than Part 1A, which protects kids in day-care centres in malls. I think that is a sensible thing to do. It was a dangerous oversight, I believe, to omit that provision in the original bill, and I am glad that that provision has been returned. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00221fb19787dac3423aa92994cd568b8ae3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fb19787dac3423aa92994cd568b8ae3\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this legislation. I acknowledge the work that my colleague Catherine Delahunty has done in terms of the Education and Science Committee and of generally maintaining awareness of the way this legislation has been going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is undoubted that the education sector is in need of change, and possibly some legislative reform is required to facilitate changes in that sector, but we do not see that the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), in total, delivers much of value or engages with the very serious, real, and substantive issues of the day that affect the sector and the people in it. There is a considerable atmosphere of distrust in the entire education sector at this time. To us, this legislation seems to be just tidying-up, or messing around at the edges, rather than going to the heart of and addressing some of the more substantive and, indeed, more urgent issues. It is never a bad thing to tidy up some of the small shortcomings of legislation or of practice, but it seems to be an opportunity lost and time not well spent to be dealing with the lesser issues and leaving the larger ones untouched. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is clear that the education sector as a whole, the ministry, and\u2014dare I say it\u2014the Minister of Education seem to be almost in a state of war. Something of a battle is raging out there, particularly over the issue of educational assessment. The Principals Federation, the teachers unions, several hundred boards of trustees, and the Porirua City Council have had opinions, and many parents groups are clearly concerned about the absence of any trialling of the national standards that are being imposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EA perceived threat is hanging over the early childhood education sector, as it is forced to cut quality. That sector is being put in the unenviable position of either raising charges or cutting the quality of the service it delivers, and it simply ought not to be put in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe tertiary education sector is in some disarray, as enrolments for study are capped. In the meantime, instead of dealing with very substantive issues, we are focusing on the rules about people leaving their children somewhere while they go to the gym and shopping in malls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESome reasonable objectives are contained in this bill, connected to refunds for international students. There is some useful spelling out of the relationship between schools and tertiary providers in terms of trades training. There are changes regarding teacher registration. We have challenged those changes in terms of the process undertaken to achieve them, but we see some value and benefit in the content of those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are voting against this legislation, despite the fact that there is some good content. Some valuable changes are accommodated in it, but, overall, the bad changes in this legislation certainly outweigh the good. The parts of this legislation that we cannot support are clearly ideologically consistent with the Government\u2019s overall philosophy about the myth of choice and the belief in protecting the privileged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe clauses relating to limited-attendance centres were bizarre. They were very strange in that they reduced the protection for children in order to facilitate some undefined convenience for parents. We are not disputing that those creches are limited to childcare rather than education; we agree that they do not need the same level of educational scrutiny, audit, or regulation. But it is an absolutely critical responsibility to ensure the safety and the protection of children, and we are pleased that that matter has been attended to. We acknowledge the determined campaign that has been led by Mr Mallard in order to effect that change. We will be very happy to support that amendment, which has become a part of the new legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Green Party remains fundamentally opposed to the idea of the proposed changes and the priority settings for enrolments of out-of-zone students. These changes do not accurately reflect an egalitarian approach to education, nor do they sufficiently acknowledge our mobile and diverse population. They clearly offer privilege to those with parents who once attended a school, or to the children of members of boards of trustees, which creates a sense of entitlement among certain groups for no really robust or sound reason. Public schools need to maintain the integrity of the open access and the lack of special privilege that our education system was built upon, and we think that philosophy is certainly worth maintaining. If parents are determined to maintain some sort of dynasty or some continuation, they have the option of going private or they can simply stay in the zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe see the clauses relating to private schools as an opportunity lost. The Law Commission review of private schools provided some useful recommendations\u2014some relatively light-handed recommendations\u2014some of which have been included, but too many of them have been ignored. The human rights of all children need to be protected in law, and we agree with at least one submitter that that has not been achieved in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs has been noted, we are on record speaking against the late amendments brought to the select committee relating to the powers of the Teachers Council. We listened to the teachers unions, which were summoned at the last minute to comment on changes to the suspension rules. The New Zealand Educational Institute said that, as representatives of a large professional body, it did not support the changes to the working conditions and rules governing its profession without appropriate and adequate consultation with its membership. We think that is a reasonable stance for it to take. There was no substantive argument in favour of this change being rushed through. It may indeed be a good idea, but it is important that a robust process be put in place; without such a process, we cannot agree to this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe believe that the sector and the Government need to work together to deal with some of the substantive problems that are obvious and that have been mentioned, but the current climate is such that there is not the degree of engagement or trust needed to enable or facilitate that open and necessary conversation. We will continue to be available, and will continue to work with and within the sector to advance the debate that we ought to be having in this House today, instead of the rather lightweight and disappointing discussion that is occurring. We will continue to oppose this legislation. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f11d02c93b4a4093b5f0b78ee1f5d0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f11d02c93b4a4093b5f0b78ee1f5d0d0\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am always proud to stand in this House to support education reform and legislation. I spoke earlier today about two of the priorities of this Government, and this legislation adds the third priority to the list. This area is a strong reason that the Prime Minister is so widely supported up and down the country. This legislation maximises participation and keeps students engaged in education across all levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI was quite shocked to hear the analogy that one of the Labour members raised, which was probably a plagiarism from Stephen Covey. Most of those of us in business would understand the concept of sharpening the saw. Businesses up and down this country would love to have the luxury of 14 weeks a year in which to sharpen the saw, which is what our teachers get. I know that many businesses would dearly love to have that opportunity, but unfortunately they do not have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe specific point that I will make about this particular legislation, which I am immensely proud of, is the changes to enrolment schemes. I had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot on this point, and that is now part of the legislation that we are passing today. I remind the House that the focus of members on this side of the House is on students being engaged in their learning. One of the strong aspects of having students engaged in their learning is their connection to the school, and their parents being connected, as well. If we talk to parents at the moment who are getting wonderful reports at home from their school, we find that it is a fantastic opportunity for them to engage with their children, their schools, and their learning. That is why I am enormously proud to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd63e59f2c84f7eb4b0887f7503e841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd63e59f2c84f7eb4b0887f7503e841\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E It is extraordinary that that member, Louise Upston, cannot pass up the opportunity to put the boot into teachers. There is such an enormously long queue of people waiting to become teachers, just to enjoy their 14 weeks\u2019 holiday! I am sure that the teachers who are listening to the debate will be saying: \u201COh goodness me! Not again. This National Government does not understand what we do and the importance of our role.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOne really interesting point in the OECD report that came out in the last few days is that it put New Zealand very high on the educational ladder, but behind Finland. The Finnish society values its teachers much, much more than we do here in New Zealand. They are paid more, they have better conditions, there is a queue of people waiting to become teachers, and schools choose from many more people who apply than are actually selected to be teachers. As a result, needless to say, no surprise, Finland has a better-performing education system than we do. We could take a leaf out of Finland\u2019s books, in order to improve our education system. I think the member Louise Upston has got it dead wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAs has been said, Labour is not supporting this legislation, but it does do a number of things in terms of tidying thing up. I have mentioned in an earlier speech that there are the good, the bad, and what I would describe as the ugly parts of this legislation. I think the ugly parts have been removed, but there are some parts of the legislation that are not so good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAs I said in the Committee stage, I believe that the secondary-tertiary partnership option that has been selected is a good one. I think it provides more opportunities\u2014particularly as it has been trialled in South Auckland\u2014for Pasifika and M\u0101ori kids to go on to tertiary education. Many of those kids may not have performed so well in a secondary environment, and this provision might provide a more amenable environment for them to be able to take on trades, particularly in the industry and manufacturing sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe legislation also makes some changes to international students and their obligations towards institutions here in New Zealand. By notice the Gazette sets the period during which international students on courses of 3 months\u2019 duration or longer can withdraw from their course and receive a refund on their course fees. Basically, that means that private training establishments will be able to retain more money and to recoup more money that has been sunk into recruiting an international student if the student pulls out of the course much earlier than he or she would have. It means that the students will face higher financial costs if they want to pull out of the course. That amount has not been reviewed since the early 1990s, and I think it is overdue for change. It will mean that there will be a lot less of the waka-jumping that we have seen up until now, and it will possibly also have the effect of deterring students from coming to New Zealand, on the pretence of joining an educational institution, and then leaving their course shortly after they arrive here and staying on in New Zealand. This is a tidying-up part of the legislation, but I think it is a useful and good part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI turn to the aspect of private schools that both Mr Mallard and David Clendon have spoken about. I think it was 90 years ago that this legislation was last looked at. The Law Commission has made a number of recommendations, and most of them are very sensible. Some of the recommendations have been taken up and others have not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b4f38bdd4514d0ebe95a73d193409dd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No good reasons given as to why not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245db2f9c66764f1586ab10422edc0e22\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the point, I say to Mr Mallard, is that many of the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations were pretty sensible. I do think that the commission could have tightened up a lot of the regulations around private schools, but that will not happen. Our disappointment, on this side of the House, is that there could have been a more rigorous examination of some of those recommendations and a fuller uptake of them in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will also mention Labour\u2019s position in terms of the enrolment scheme priorities. Again, David Clendon and my colleague Trevor Mallard talked about this. I think what we will end up doing with this type of legislation, if we are not careful, is rewarding continuing privilege. I would like to think that all children have an equal opportunity to go to a school in their area, rather than if their father or mother is on a board or their parents attended the school some time previously. I would like to think that we have a system whereby children are able to attend a school on the basis of merit and geography, rather than on privilege. That is something that I believe pretty much all New Zealanders, other than the ones who have attended schools of privilege, would agree with, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI spoke on the issue of limited-attendance centres in the second reading of the Education Amendment Bill (No 2). I thought this was an anomaly\u2014and more than an anomaly. It could have ended up being something that we as members of Parliament would want very much to distance ourselves from. There was a lot of empty reasoning for why we could not put police checks into limited-attendance centres. I could not, for the life of me, understand that reasoning, other than that it was bureaucratic and there was always some way around it. We have found a way around it. We will now have police checks for those people who are involved with creches, gymnasiums, and shopping centres, etc. It means that the parents who bring their children into a shopping centre and decide to leave them in a creche for a couple of hours can have some confidence that the person working in the creche is not a paedophile. That was the real issue we were facing before this amendment was agreed to. It shocked me that we could not come to an agreement on that point, because it was so obviously in the interests of both children and their parents that that should be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI do not think the provision gives 100 percent protection for kids\u2014we are always going to have exceptions\u2014but it goes some way along the road. I remember that in some of the submissions that we looked at there were recommendations, for example, that children should be able to be seen in creches, that they are open, and that if the person in charge of those children has to go to the bathroom, for example, there is some means by which they would be supervised. Also, basic first-aid treatment should perhaps be available. I thought that was a pretty obvious feature that should be an obligation. We will not be arguing for that. We recognise that this is a lighter hand of regulation, but I think the most important point is that making sure that the police checks are now mandatory is a real step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EA number of speakers tonight have spoken on the fact that they believe that a lot of this legislation is unnecessary. If Paul Quinn wakes up, he will recognise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c624841fd034f9db02812a40034dbe9\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What is the member doing to assist him to wake up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91c672fd32a4b0b9274dcb2c7fddd58\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would like the camera to focus on Paul Quinn and his enthusiastic participation in this debate. I have to say that in some ways I am starting to miss Mr Quinn. I am starting to miss his random interjections, those volcanic eruptions that happen from time to time\u2014thoughtless and meaningless, but nevertheless loud. I have not heard them for some time. A number of members who have contributed tonight have talked about the fact that this legislation is not addressing the real issues. I acknowledge Richie Poulton from Otago University in Dunedin, who is head of the longitudinal study. He picked up the Frank Josef prize of 1 million Swiss francs in Zurich last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236766cb714d2446986af08c9fcae69a0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Quinn can multitask. He does show he has a softer side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00220a71cb9d711b49be9487d43690919da2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a71cb9d711b49be9487d43690919da2\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would have a go at waking up Paul Quinn, as well. I can tell members that after this debate I will get the video clip of Louise Upston saying she thought that teachers had 14 weeks of holiday a year, and I will send that to every teacher in the country, because I think when they see National\u2019s view that teachers have 14 weeks of holiday every year, they will all come flooding to the Labour Party in droves. Teachers will be so outraged at that. I know that Louise Upston may think teachers have 14 weeks\u2019 holiday, but she does not seem to allow for the fact that in order to be in a classroom and teach students, they actually have to have time to prepare the lessons they will deliver and to mark the assignments of the students. It is not holidays that the teachers have for 14 weeks. Perhaps if that member visited one or two of the schools in her electorate, she might have a bit of a\u2014Anne Tolley seems to be shaking her head. She seems to think that teachers have 14 weeks of holiday, as well. I think that probably just confirms what most teachers in the country think about the Minister of Education already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am happy to take a call on the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), and I particularly acknowledge the work my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard has done in regard to the drop-off early childhood education services and limited-attendance centres\u2014I think that is the term the Government uses for them. I think the amendment that has been put forward in the name of Trevor Mallard, and passed with the Government\u2019s support, is a particularly important one. I think it is vitally important that when parents leave their children with an early childhood service, if people in that service have access to those children without any other form of supervision, there should be adequate safety measures in place to ensure those children will be safe, regardless of where it is and the duration of the stay. I think the amendment put forward by Trevor Mallard will help to ensure that that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI also think it is good that the Government has finally come to the party on that amendment, after spending weeks and weeks denying that there was even a problem with what it was trying to do, as we have seen at question time over and over again. It is very good that my colleague Trevor Mallard, supported by the other members of Labour\u2019s education team, has not let this issue go, and has continued to push it. We have dragged the Government kicking and screaming to what will be a sensible outcome in that regard. However, there are many other things in the bill that will result in Labour finally opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBefore I move on and stop talking about early childhood education, I will pick up on some of the comments that have characterised the debate in relation to limited-attendance centres. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022031e5876204b4104b1d674b3970b94d3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1add287498845a193b562b855ee5540\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The more the Minister interjects, the longer I will speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9915f5b5ed64d2896bb0b5e4a6bb0e2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: No, he won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213317ed63c3747a3bfb6285ce8fc6a40\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is an invitation; I ask him please not to hold back. Some of the debate about limited-attendance centres has characterised the uglier side of the debate in relation to early childhood education in general. It really gets my back up every time I hear Government members referring to early childhood education as babysitting. We hear that far too much. We have heard that description in this debate about limited-attendance centres. [Interruption] I can go back and find quotes from Government members of Parliament talking about limited-attendance centres as being no more than babysitting facilities\u2014no more than babysitting facilities! I tell members that the teachers who work in early childhood education get really annoyed when they hear the Government talking about early childhood education as being nothing more than babysitting. The Government does not understand the difference between early childhood education and babysitting, and this misunderstanding has often characterised this debate. A number of MPs on that side of the Chamber do not understand the difference between what a child in a limited-attendance centre will be doing and what a child in an early childhood centre will be doing. They actually do not understand the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI had a National Party candidate show up in my electorate in the last election and stand up in front of a whole lot of early childhood teachers and kindergarten teachers talking about babysitting. I do not think the National Party got a single vote out of that room\u2014the member was practically booed out. There are members on that side of the Chamber\u2014too many of them\u2014who do not know the difference. They do not understand what quality early childhood education is all about. I suggest that they might want to take a little bit of time to learn the difference, and to gain some understanding of that. If they did, then perhaps they would not be making the other changes in early childhood education, such as cutting funding for centres to have fully qualified staff. The kindergarten association in my own electorate has lost half a million dollars in funding because the Government does not understand the importance of quality early childhood education, with fully qualified and fully trained teachers, which is what kindergartens have a proud tradition of having. But that has been compromised by this Government\u2019s changes to the funding system for early childhood education, and it is absolutely disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley is shaking her head, and no doubt she will be saying: \u201COh, the centres can just increase their charges.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7a469bcce6494c941100884017f348\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve never said that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53bc5dbab25474991e3ba951fdd6f3a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish\u2014absolute rubbish! Rimutaka Kindergarten Association will lose half a million dollars in funding next year; where will it get that from? Where will it get the half a million dollars in funding it is going to lose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e0c49e5512405db59bbedc6e800629\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: How much do they get?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a438d025df04655aa60b6624cfa3006\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Education cannot give an answer about where the Rimutaka Kindergarten Association will get the half million dollars in funding it has lost because of her Government\u2019s budget cut. The Government does not understand the importance of qualified staff in early childhood education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e14bd6b0a26470295103a9792f5a972\u0022\u003EHon Anne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we do!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227086c1c284141caadf322c297bf4f7d\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Why have they cut the funding for it, then? It is trimming everything, the Minister said. That is right. The Government knows the dollar cost of everything and the value of nothing, particularly when it comes to early childhood education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will move on to some of the other provisions in the bill before I run out of time. I want to talk particularly about the inherited privilege provisions in the bill that deal with the enrolment schemes for schools. The provisions basically give kids whose parents or siblings have gone to a school the right to enter that school, even if they live outside the zone. The provisions give them preference. How is that fair? It is inherited privilege\u2014nothing short of it. If the Government wants to have that debate in an election year and go and tell people in my electorate why they cannot send their kids to the school they live closest to\u2014because it thinks people with an inherited privilege should have a higher priority\u2014then I will happily stand on the campaign hustings and say that I think National is totally wrong in that. I will tell them that for the people who live the closest to their local school, their kids should have the priority of access to that school, and they should not be pushed out because of inherited privilege. That is good old-fashioned Tory inherited privilege, which is what the provisions in this bill will protect and deliver more of. I think that stinks. I definitely will not be supporting that, and I will happily have that argument with National on the campaign hustings at every available opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFinally, I will talk about the pathways between school, employment, and further education, which are covered by this legislation. The workforce has changed, and the range of available training opportunities for young people has changed significantly, over the last couple of decades. In the Schools Plus initiative that the previous Labour Government was putting forward before the last election, we recognised the need to continue to build on programmes like Gateway, the Secondary Tertiary Alignment Resource, and Young Apprenticeships, which were all programmes introduced by the last Labour Government. We recognised the need to continue to build on those in order to ensure that every kid under the age of 18 was in some form of education or training and leading towards a more qualified workforce. We also recognised the need to invest in upskilling the current workforce. We have to recognise that most people who will be in the workforce in 20 years\u2019 time are already in the workforce, and we need to invest in upskilling those people as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214774aa1307941b7ae83ffa745ffcc6c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What? Most of the people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee0c9abac444f1fbf12b31874e195d0\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That member should go and do the demographic analysis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b44d4c973c49b89f35bc13a9f51ba2\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Most of the people in the workforce now will be in there in 20 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228509c4a04c8e47e4a08ddb3a95c309b0\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is dead right; that is exactly what I said. I tell that member to go and do the analysis now. Most of the people who will be in the workforce in 20 years\u2019 time are already in the workforce today. So we have to think about how we will provide them with upskilling opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3443cd8ff6c4a8889cd592b0b4f1223\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member be old enough to get a real job, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252273d90434c4dbeabc3fa1643637f57\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! I do not know what that comment says about Mr Mallard. If I do not have a real job, I am not entirely sure what that says about him, seeing that he has been here since he was about\u2014well, for the last couple of decades. He has been here since they were publishing Hansard on stone tablets. That is how long Trevor Mallard has been in the House. So I am not entirely sure that to say that members of Parliament do not have real jobs reflects particularly well on him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa69b3297be4b018e762b04a6f43549\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This is not helping, Trevor!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256cb87a458a432d84b5971d2e8e35f6\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he opened himself up to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOverall, Labour will not be supporting this bill because there is too much in it we oppose, so we will be voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022688faec4857d45a5bb2c32163203fbf1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 35; Green Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000951\u0022\u003EHealth and Safety in Employment Amendment Bill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48e0d99509246bba5ab75b7fe298443\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Government order of the day No. 12, which is the Committee stage of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. Members, as I require a temporary Speaker I have asked Chris Hipkins\u2014[Interruption] He is to babysit for me while I move into the Chair for the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223586d900e05d450fa8bfdf01c1feaef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223586d900e05d450fa8bfdf01c1feaef0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to know whether it is appropriate for Minister Hide to have taken his position in the chair before you have put the House into Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b4d0076d6114307b510690761302e0b\u0022\u003EThe TEMPORARY SPEAKER (Chris Hipkins)\u003C/span\u003E: I can resolve that issue. I declare the House in Committee for consideration of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b7acf2f807e43b7a9cb4abdc28b8f70\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Productivity Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022243441becf01490d97ca74251273a696\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd7a4078dcf540bba3fae7828e6ad950\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220437f01845d04e80a0775365602f68d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220437f01845d04e80a0775365602f68d5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on Part 1, because although it is headed \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D it contains some very important matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe first matter is in relation to the interpretation of \u201Cproductivity-related matter\u201D. I think that provision was improved before the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill was introduced. The reason it was improved was to try to narrow the focus, but in narrowing the actual wording of the interpretation we were trying to expand what could be considered by the Productivity Commission. Leaving the interpretation as \u201C\u00A0\u2018productivity-related matter\u2019 means any matter relating to productivity, or improving productivity, in the private sector, the public sector, or the economy as a whole\u201D enables an incredibly broad brush to be applied to the definition of the word \u201Cproductivity\u201D. The last thing anyone on this side of the Chamber wants is a narrow approach to something that, hopefully, will be an important feature of our political and economic landscape for the future. I really hope the Government of the day takes an equally broad-brush approach to the definition of productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDuring the Commerce Committee process it was very interesting to hear from Gary Banks, who heads the Australian Productivity Commission. He talked about the history of the development of the commission, and gave some background as to why its legislation focused on a quite specific but actually quite broad range of items. When one looks at the Australian Productivity Commission legislative provisions one sees that there are environmental, regional, and social dimensions to its definition of productivity. I think that is because of the background of the commission, which has come through various stages in its life. Gary Banks talked about the legislation originally coming from the Tariff Board, which is where the industry focus came from. The modern form of the commission came in under the Whitlam Government in 1973, and that was the Industries Assistance Commission. Finally, the Productivity Commission took over from that commission. That description helped me understand why it was better to go down the track that we had agreed prior to the introduction of the bill, which was to leave the definition very broad and open, rather than seeking to define every aspect of productivity that we would want to see applied. But that being said, the definition is not an open invitation for the other side to take a narrow view of productivity. If one of the early tasks of the Productivity Commission is to focus on regulatory matters, compliance costs, and all of those sorts of narrow issues, then we will be very disappointed. We want the Productivity Commission to achieve good things for our country. That is why I have tabled a new purpose clause, but I will not speak to that now, because it comes into Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to refer to under Part 1 is the definition of \u201Cresponsible Minister\u201D. I see that the Minister for Regulatory Reform, who is not the responsible Minister, is sitting in the chair. I am disappointed that he is not the responsible Minister\u2014[Interruption] I knew that was going to excite concern from my colleagues, but I do think the Minister for Regulatory Reform ought to be the Minister who takes responsibility for this particular legislation. Then again, there are those who argue that the Minister of Finance has a broader sweep, and that the reason why we shifted the regulatory impact analysis unit from the Ministry of Economic Development to Treasury was to bring about that whole-of-Government approach. We also wanted a department that was capable of monstering other departments into doing stuff that perhaps they did not want to do, so it made sense to shift the unit to Treasury. Maybe that does mean the Minister of Finance is the correct responsible Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to use the opportunity to comment on a couple of things that the Minister for Regulatory Reform has done while he has been the Minister, even though deeply involved in the discussions that we had prior to the introduction of this bill\u2014and this bill does come from the agreement between the ACT Party and the National Party in forming the Government. That is to put on record again my deep concern about the decision that the Government took\u2014and the responsible Minister is included in this\u2014to remove regulatory impact statements from the pages at the front of the bill. I find that incredibly disruptive to the process of analysis. It also means that my first reading speeches are nowhere near as good as they would be otherwise, because I have always found the regulatory impact statements to be a great source of information about the nature of the problem, analysis of the different options, and stakeholder engagement as part of the consultation process. Those have all been really important features of regulatory impact statements. Having to find them on the website and download them separately I find very frustrating. I understand, having had discussions with the Minister about it, why that particular approach has been adopted, but I still feel that including even a modified form of the regulatory impact statement that reflected any changes Cabinet had made to the final set of decisions would be preferable. If that analysis were appended to the end of the regulatory impact statement and included with the bill, then the issues that the Government has grappled with in this matter simply would not be an issue. I would be very keen to see regulatory impact statements come back into the published versions of bills. I think a very short analysis at the end of the regulatory impact statement to identify any differences that had occurred as a result of the Cabinet process would certainly be extremely helpful. I think it would add to the quality of the debate in the Chamber, and, certainly, to the quality of my own personal contributions to these debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other things that I want to mention in relation to Part 1, because even though it is a very short part it is very, very significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b4840caaa74c3e898efdf61c2cffe3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I spent the entire dinner break reflecting on what I had said before the break, and I have decided that it is correct that the Minister of Finance is the Minister responsible for the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. I came to that conclusion because if the Minister for Regulatory Reform undertook the role, that would shift the primary focus of the New Zealand Productivity Commission to regulatory matters, and Labour does not agree with that. I discussed it with several colleagues over the dinner break, and I think we are now of one mind that the Minister that the Prime Minister has selected to be responsible for the bill is, in fact, the right Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut it is good to have the Minister for Regulatory Reform in the chair, because I know that he and his party were significant driving forces behind this measure. Although I do not agree with the emphasis on regulatory matters, I do think the emphasis on growing New Zealand\u2019s productivity, enhancing our productivity, and looking at all the different aspects of our productivity in order to improve New Zealand\u2019s economic development is good. So it is important to acknowledge the role that Rodney Hide has played in this matter, and it is good that he can debate the bill from the chair. It is only Thursday night, after all, according to the calendar on the wall, and I have to say that the House being in urgency does reflect a significantly higher level of productivity than is normal in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226e9132cace440a18ea19c325a0863f6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Are you sure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253f3858f1c1e4453945f421f35ff975f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It depends. If people have taken advantage of it, and have used the approach my colleague took on the previous bill, the Education Amendment Bill (No 2), which was to get the Government to finally concede that the point he had been going on about for quite some time was correct and to fix that little problem, then it is amazing how much more productive Parliament can be under urgency; otherwise, there is a high risk of a little bit of filibustering. But that is not what Labour members are doing on the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. We think it is very important, we do want to see it passed, and we do want to see the current Government utilise it in the way that we intend to utilise it to get the productivity gains for New Zealand that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002275b9d84ef9b14446928bfb6bdea847e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275b9d84ef9b14446928bfb6bdea847e6\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a\u2014sorry about that noise. It takes me back to my old death metal days at university\u2014a bit of feedback. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e56de849a54dcf82d12797bbc6d2c8\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t like feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a73a1195d8c4b46a54a9e694783e602\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not mind feedback; not usually from Mr Hipkins, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe strongly support in principle the notion of having a productivity commission, as my colleague Lianne Dalziel has said. From my perspective as the spokesperson on State services for the Labour Party, it is a good thing. Some eyebrows might be raised on the other side of the Chamber at that statement, but I think that productivity in the State sector is a big issue. Obviously, I believe that we need a strong, healthy State sector that provides high-quality services to New Zealanders, and one issue it struggles with from time to time is productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is a conundrum for New Zealand as to why we have consistently not been able to lift our productivity rates. Throughout the last 20 or 30 years we have struggled to see productivity rise, we have lagged behind other OECD countries, and questions have been asked. Productivity was at the heart of the agenda of the fifth Labour Government, which aimed to raise skills and improve innovation in order to do the things that we thought would help lift our economy and improve our productivity. I think that a commission like this one is useful. If we look at Part 1, these are obviously the preliminary provisions, and the bill goes into more detail in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe particular matter I will discuss is the definition of \u201Cproductivity-related matter\u201D. As my colleague Lianne Dalziel has said, a difficult balance needs to be struck between a definition that enables plenty of scope and one that at same time is not so broad that we cannot have a good mandate for the commission. The definition of \u201Cproductivity-related matter\u201D in Part 1 is \u201Cany matter relating to productivity, or improving productivity, in the private sector, the public sector, or the economy as a whole\u201D. It is very important that we have managed to break out the private sector, public sector, and the wider economy in that interpretation. Members on this side of the Chamber are very attracted to the kinds of reports that the Australian Productivity Commission has made. It has made a very wide range of reports, including some on issues that people might not have traditionally seen as being about productivity but about how the Australian economy and society are developing. We think there is potential for the New Zealand Productivity Commission to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u201CProductivity-related matter\u201D in clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, has been defined pretty widely. From our point of view that is a good thing, but the issue with our having done that with regard to the commission is that each Government that comes along may have a different view on exactly how it will interpret a definition that is fairly wide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EObviously, Labour has its own concerns\u2014which we will be raising in Part 2, when we come to talk about the Productivity Commission in detail\u2014including the fact that we already have someone appointed to run the commission at this time. That person is Murray Sherwin. He is a respected public servant of many years\u2019 standing, but in all honesty, from a personal perspective, I do not see his appointment as being particularly ambitious for this commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228402ef3e4ab41359af94cb4c16336db\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Not very exciting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225531eb3db9124b72a7347e488010864f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not very exciting at all, I say to Mr Mallard. That is correct\u2014not ambitious, not exciting. Murray Sherwin is a competent public servant; he is not the kind of person, in my opinion, who would drive the Productivity Commission to be the thing that it could be. It has the potential to harness a lot of different views from across the community, the private sector, and the public sector and to bring them together to face the challenge. My colleague Shane Jones has often asked what it is about the New Zealand economy that needs to be picked up and kick-started, and I am sorry to say that Murray Sherwin\u2014as competent a man as he is\u2014will not be doing that, leaving aside the question of whether having someone appointed before we have even gone through this process is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI would like to think that what will come out of the House tonight will be an enduring agreement about the importance of having a productivity commission. Certainly, in terms of National and Labour, there is consensus that this is a good idea. Mr Hide has been championing it as part of the coalition agreement between ACT and National. Its time has come, but the interpretation clause tells us that there is a lot of room for manoeuvre when it comes to what constitutes a productivity-related matter. Members on this side of the Chamber certainly look to the Australian Productivity Commission. We look to some of the issues it has looked at, including issues in the environmental space, which are very, very important. I am not so sure that Mr Hide would see those things as being quite as important, but Labour can support this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb10e6d50055402eb4b78869ede98a3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb10e6d50055402eb4b78869ede98a3b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou, Mr Chair. Such is the importance attached to the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, that it requires attention that is likely to take us into Sunday, which will still be Thursday. This modest contribution is to reward the hard-working members on this side of the Chamber, and to alert the members on the other side of the Chamber that when they play loose and fast with the rules of the House they can expect to suffer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI direct members\u2019 attention to clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, which states that \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to\u2014(a) establish the Commission as a Crown entity for the purposes of section 7 of the Crown Entities Act 2004;\u201D. A number of commissioners will be created under the Crown Entities Act 2004. My colleague Grant Robertson has already drawn the Committee\u2019s attention to the fact that one of the favoured sons of the failed ideologues of the 1980s and 1990s has already been appointed to lead what runs the risk of turning into a discredited organisation, in very much the same way as Don Brash\u2019s exercises with Dr Bryce Wilkinson and others have brought a great deal of opprobrium to those who are associated with trying to sensibly and credibly boost productivity and lessen the gap between us and our Australian cousins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Productivity Commission derives its powers from the Crown Entities Act, and it is evident from a cursory glance at that Act that commissioners are able to secure additional assistance\u2014that is, through associate commissioners\u2014or secure resources to undertake studies or examinations that might be called for from time to time. When we think about the purpose of the Act, we need to think about the people who will be there to give life, meaning, and form to the purpose. Under the current administration, it is evident that the narrow cast of ideological activists that it will draw from makes us doubt whether this organisation will achieve very much at all. At the end of the day, productivity is about people, and to date there has been a huge degree of disinterest on that side of the House in actually investing in people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe have seen cuts\u2014I mean, hypothetical\u2014but I ask whether productivity can be increased at the same time as starving the most vulnerable group of New Zealanders\u2014that is, the future workforce and their families\u2014of the resources to ensure that they are suitably educated. How can we advance productivity whilst at the same time squeezing and starving resources from those avenues of the State\u2019s resource base that are directed towards giving very good literacy and numeracy skills, civic skills, and social relations skills? All of that is actually being deprecated at the moment. It is a joke to think that we can create the Productivity Commission whilst at the same time not focusing on the building blocks of what is the greatest asset our country has. There is no productivity unless we invest in people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe nature of our people is changing. The school-age population is getting browner, with more Pasifika, tangata whenua, M\u0101ori kids, and Kiwis of M\u0101ori descent. There are also more children of Asian descent and more children from other ethnic minorities. I only hope that when the Minister moves forward with the Productivity Commission\u2014fortunately it will be for a mercifully short period of time; the results of the next election will rescue us from this narrow-mindedness\u2014he will take into account, in terms of the qualities of the appointees, such things as ethnicity and the experience of working at different levels of the economy, not just at the big end of town. It is the big end of town\u2014characters who thought they were masters of the universe, especially in the financial community\u2014that has brought us to our knees. When I hear the media raging about the most recent lapse of judgment in our world, the M\u0101ori world, I like to remind them that the last time I checked the $7 billion worth of wealth meltdown, I did not see any r\u016Bnanga or hap\u016B involved in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779eb6f4f96f401fac353e4329e0f92f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Did anyone say sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e995493fd54f57b1908790a0432d16\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No. Well, they are unlikely to utter that because that requires a level of humility and modesty that we do not ordinarily associate with that end of town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnyway, I come back to isolating the point that when we establish a commission, we have to focus on the quality and the range of skills that those people have. We need those who know about the emergence of entrepreneurialism and how to feed the culture of entrepreneurialism. We need those who are skilled in capital formation, but, most of all, we need those who are skilled in what enables people to find a reservoir of enthusiasm, eagerness, and tenacity to continue to learn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen we look at some firms and companies\u2014because we will need to take a micro look, not a macro look\u2014we will see that productivity-related matters will go down, and we will have to consider the culture that exists between the owners of the firm and the providers of the capital. When we have a set of toxic labour relations and a set of rules that are squeezing further and further and increasing the pain on the labour force whilst not focusing on the obligations and the duties of the owners of the capital or the directors of firms, we cannot perpetually make more miserable the providers of labour and imagine that we are to grow wealthier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe have seen a level of belligerence and hostility towards the leaders of the labour movement in New Zealand. We have seen it recently in terms of the treatment dished out to Helen Kelly in the recent episode to do with the give-away to the Hollywood billionaires. It is a timely reminder that a Productivity Commission will only be as good as the spread of people who occupy the positions. They must command respect in the eyes of the Ministers of the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt would appear that the Savings Working Group, comprising a number of notable New Zealanders, has already lost a fair degree of confidence in the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister, and other senior Ministers of the current Government, because issues that it ought to be looking at\u2014that is, notions of compulsion, types of obligations, etc., in savings\u2014have already been written out of the script. This suggests that this Government hears, sees, and senses something that does not immediately fit with its plan\u2014and, of course, we all know that there is no plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister, I acknowledge, was a successful currency trader and a pragmatist. So there is no coherent plan; there is just a haphazard set of disconnected events where the Government takes a position, closes out, and rapidly moves on to the next position. Unfortunately, exercising stewardship over the economy, as Mr Mallard and other members more senior than me will point out, requires an overarching vision, a strategy, a narrative, and, whether or not we like it, a plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis commission will not advance any plan, because we already know that the types of things it will look at come from a very narrow ideological straightjacket\u2014that is, that the State is bad and it must be shrunk. How do we shrink the State? We know that the Productivity Commission will be charged at looking at whether the State should be shrunk by shrinking revenue. Then, once revenue in a macro sense is decreased, the State has fewer options to take an activist role where the economy might be suffering from market failure, inject a degree of public investment, or ensure that the public interest is addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIf the people who come into this organisation are disconnected from the way the vast bulk of small to medium sized firms operate and the way the vast bulk of New Zealand families live, then we can rest assured that it will be a continual story of a narrow range of ideas being forced upon us and our families, and that will just not do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to what defines a productivity-related matter, the Productivity Commission will look at private sector productivity issues, public sector productivity issues, and the economy as a whole. Well, the economy as a whole cannot be understood by focusing just on economic rationalism, because people are not just economic utility-maximising rats. At the same time, they are social creatures, so it is important when we look at productivity\u2014and this will depend on the quality of the people coming forward\u2014to take account not only of human capital but of natural capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4a1de7fe4ab42fbb2faf56216189523\u0022\u003EPart 2  Substantive Provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60376cf38bc45ff8685e68253592bba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Debate on Part 2 includes the schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc8560379754ff6bbbe93cbb0037187\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc8560379754ff6bbbe93cbb0037187\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start the contributions on Part 2 of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill for a number of reasons. Obviously I have been involved in the discussions on the legislation establishing the Productivity Commission, and I chaired the Commerce Committee and had the opportunity to hear submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI place on record again my disappointment at the number of people who actually submitted on the bill. Everyone on both sides of the House has agreed that this legislation is quite important, yet 13 submissions were received and we heard seven of them. I was very disappointed that Business New Zealand did not want to be heard, because I had asked the select committee clerk to arrange for the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand to get half an hour each, one after the other, so that we could actually engage with both and get a real sense of where their points of commonality are. They had been working very closely together on productivity for a number of years when Labour was in Government, and I felt that that work would flow through into a really good discussion at the select committee. Then I found out that Business New Zealand did not want to be heard. Unfortunately, I have to report to the House that it gave quite a narrow submission. I was disappointed. The Council of Trade Unions gave a very good submission and really talked about what made a difference in terms of looking at productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs a result of that submission, I have three amendments to Part 2, one of which relates to the purpose of the commission. The first amendment is to rewrite the purpose clause. I do not know why\u2014and I actually kick myself now because I cannot understand why\u2014we used the word \u201Cprincipal\u201D. Clause 7 states: \u201CThe principal purpose of the Commission \u2026\u201D. I have rewritten it to say: \u201CThe purpose of the Commission is to facilitate policy development, practical activities and research which will boost productivity on a sustained basis in order to support the overall well-being of New Zealanders, through the development of a high wage, high skill, sustainable economy that delivers benefits on an equitable basis to New Zealanders, having regard to a wide range of communities of interest and population groups in New Zealand society.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAnyone who has read the original bill will know that that amendment not only picks up a lot of the language we had within that clause but also starts to define what we are trying to achieve. There is no point looking at productivity in a narrow sense if we do not get that benefit shared on an equitable basis. We might see a productivity improvement and a greater disparity in terms of the sharing of wealth in our nation, and we know that that would minimise or reduce our productivity over time because the outcomes would be so inequitable. I think we have to recognise New Zealand for what it is, and what communities of interest make up New Zealand. We also have to recognise that productivity has a very broad definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second set of changes relate to subclause (1) of clause 9, \u201CCommission\u2019s functions\u201D. This provision extends the commission\u2019s functions. The two functions in the bill as reported back are \u201C(a) \u2026 to hold inquiries and report to the referring Ministers about productivity-related matters; and (b) on its own initiative, to\u2014(i) undertake and publish research about productivity-related matters; and (ii) promote public understanding of productivity-related matters.\u201D Going back to my amendment in terms of the purpose, I have talked about practical activities and research, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe practical activities that I am seeking to add under clause 9(1) are: \u201C(c) support initiatives which develop practical productivity projects and provide an overview of the range of tools/models available to maximise multifactor productivity in workplaces;\u201D. I did think, after having reflected on what the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions said in its submission, that workplace productivity is an important component of the total view. If the Productivity Commission is to provide some grunt in this area it really needs to lead the way. A range of tools are available, and they differentiate between the public sector and the private sector. There are different drivers in both sectors, and I think they need to be reflected in the way in which the Productivity Commission operates. I think that part of the reason for specifying these initiatives as an activity of the Productivity Commission is to ensure that it becomes the single point of entry\u2014the Government portal to productivity. I think that is a hugely advantageous position in terms of the credibility of the organisation long term. That is the first paragraph of the amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI seem to have called the second paragraph of the amendment \u201C(e)\u201D instead of \u201C(d)\u201D, but that is just a little typo. It states: \u201C(e) run inclusive events/workshops on productivity and have educational tools and other information on its website;\u201D. Again, that kind of brings it together as a portal where people can go for a one-stop shop approach to productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe next paragraph of the amendment states: \u201C(f) organise events and activities as appropriate with the Australian Productivity Commission;\u201D Everyone knows that I am a huge admirer of the Australian Productivity Commission, and I have this hope that one day it will be an Australia - New Zealand Productivity Commission. The idea of putting it in legislation so that those events and activities are authorised by statute appealed to me, so I thought that was a very good amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe final paragraph is to \u201C(g) produce an annual report on productivity\u201D. Unless we actually require the Productivity Commission to annually report on these matters, where are the benchmarks? Where are the measures against which we will look for the success that we believe this model could bring? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMy final set of amendments is on the terms of reference. I would specifically put into the terms of reference in clause 12 a new (1B), which states: \u201CIn setting the terms of reference for an inquiry the referring Ministers must first consult with Business New Zealand\u201D\u2014it does not deserve that consultation, because it did not front, but there we go\u2014\u201Cand the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions to ensure that the concept of social partnership is embedded in the work of the Productivity Commission.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that language signals a really important aspect of the difference between the 1990s and today. In the 1990s the concept of social partnership was completely lost. The Employment Contracts Act took the word \u201Cunion\u201D out of legislative being, so industrial relations were to operate without the word \u201Cunion\u201D being included. Collective bargaining was around contracts, not agreements, and there was no real understanding of how important these things were to the concept of productivity. Without embedding that relationship into the work of the Productivity Commission, I cannot see any other way of ensuring that we get to the best in terms of our workplace contribution to that productivity growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI played with the idea of locking this concept of social partnership into workplace productivity issues, but the more I thought about it the more I thought that I would take workplace productivity out of it. The social partnership is fundamentally critical to all issues relating to productivity. I hope the Minister looks at that amendment and thinks very carefully about whether it might improve the way in which the Productivity Commission may operate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EFinally, I propose to add to clause 12 a new subclause (4): \u201CMinisters and the Commission shall ensure that terms of reference require a range of models to be used in any research and analysis.\u201D The Minister may well say that that is taken for granted in the way in which we have changed the legislation as it has gone through the Commerce Committee. I would really like to know, as a matter of law, that the commission will be required not to take a narrow focus on various models of measuring productivity and productivity gains over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe final thing will say in this contribution\u2014and I may want to come back to it after listening to my colleagues\u2019 contributions\u2014relates to the process around selecting the members of the commission. I follow on from a comment that my colleague Shane Jones made. I do not believe that the selection of the chair-designate was a very good process. We were informed by letter on the Thursday before the appointment was made finally, and we were advised that this was the appointment the Government was going to make. It is not an appointment that I would have chosen, but that is by the by; I am talking about the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI hope that, going forward, the Government thinks very seriously about getting a more balanced approach to the commission. I think that would sustain it through changes in the Government over time. I also think that if this process is adopted it will not be sustainable over time. I hope the Government takes that particular comment on board in determining who else will be on the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022836e1dca2f744b0c8bc2168cd422e7e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022836e1dca2f744b0c8bc2168cd422e7e7\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to those amendments proposed by the member. I thank the Hon Lianne Dalziel for her work as a Minister and her commitment to improving New Zealand\u2019s productivity, and, also, her work as the chair of the Commerce Committee and the contribution that she made there. I pick up, first of all, her proposed amendment to clause 7. The member will appreciate that the purpose clause is couched very broadly to enable the Productivity Commission to conduct inquiries and research into any productivity-related matters that will improve the welfare of New Zealand. It encompasses everything that the member\u2019s proposed amendment includes. The proposed amendment is just another way of skinning the same cat; it does not actually change anything, and, therefore, the Government will not be agreeing to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me now deal with the Hon Lianne Dalziel\u2019s suggested changes to clause 9(1), which relate to the functions of the commission. The first of these subclauses would appear to give the Productivity Commission new hands-on support for workplace productivity improvement projects. That would fundamentally change the character of the Productivity Commission, which is to provide independent analysis and advice on productivity-related matters. I should also note that this is specifically not a function of the Australian Productivity Commission. It would be a new and novel approach. Proposed paragraphs (e), (f), and (g) of clause 9(1) would appear to specify activities that the Productivity Commission is already able to undertake through existing clause 9(1)(b)(ii), which is to promote public understanding of productivity-related matters. The Government does not see any need to provide this level of specification in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the proposed amendment to clause 12, the bill enables the Productivity Commission to consult widely. Clause 13(1A)(b) states that the commission may \u201Cconsult with any persons, bodies, organisations, and agencies it considers necessary to ensure that a wide range of views is available to the Commission to assist it in preparing its reports.\u201D The expectation is that as an independent body it will identify those who are likely to have a particular expertise or contribution that may assist it in relation to specific inquiries referred to it. Identifying two specific bodies in the bill, such as this proposed amendment would do, is not consistent with the philosophy of widespread consultation and engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn relation to proposed subclause (4) of clause 12, the Productivity Commission model is predicated on the commission having the requisite expertise to make a call on the appropriate methods and the models for its inquiries, and the approach that it takes will be amply tested through consultation that the commission may undertake, including through consulting on draft reports. This is an aspect of the bill that was strengthened by the select committee, for which I do thank the honourable member. I thank her very much for the contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdf0cce73f3948208373e0d1bbd3e1ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdf0cce73f3948208373e0d1bbd3e1ed\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In recent times I have come to the House and railed against bits of legislation. I have been saying, in particular, that this is no way to run a country. The New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, however, I am really pleased to speak to, because I think it is a good way to run a country. I think the bill will provide for the possibility of independent and contestable advice being given on one of the issues that has dogged us for at least the last decade and a half, as we have wrestled with New Zealand\u2019s underperforming productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is an area that I have been involved in intimately in my life before I came into Parliament. We were constantly looking at how to make the provision of services in the health sector, in that instance, more efficient and effective, and more productive, by the association jointly of employers and employees in the workplace: by the association of professional health practitioners, service providers, and the managers of the district health boards or the entities that preceded them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe issue of productivity has been vexing this country for some time, and no Government has been able to crack it in a sustainable way. That is why we are pleased to join with the Government on this bill, especially as it has now had its purpose expanded by the work of the Commerce Committee. I commend all members of the select committee, including my colleague the chairperson, who has put a lot of work into making sure that this legislation hits all the right buttons. This model is a very good one for working through issues that are beyond political tribalism. I can be as tribal as the next person. I know where my politics come from; I know what I believe. But this is one of those things, one of those moments, where it is entirely possible, and not beyond the wit of this Chamber, to come up with a system and a process that benefits New Zealand and has the fundamental well-being of New Zealand at heart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe fact that the purpose of the New Zealand Productivity Commission was expanded by the select committee is a good thing. Notwithstanding the Minister\u2019s comments just now on my colleague Lianne Dalziel\u2019s amendment to clause 7, it is good that the purpose has been expanded to include the words \u201Chaving regard to a wide range of communities of interest and population groups in New Zealand society.\u201D I think also that there is merit in my colleague\u2019s amendment that states: \u201Cin order to support the overall well-being of New Zealanders, through the development of a high wage, high skill, sustainable economy that delivers benefits on an equitable basis to New Zealanders \u2026\u201D. I think the addition of those words would simply strengthen the legislation and strengthen the purpose of the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBeyond that, given that I understand that the Minister has signalled that that amendment will not succeed, I ask that he looks at my colleague Lianne Dalziel\u2019s amendment to clause 12. Here, we come to the heart of the matter. Lianne Dalziel has proposed a new subclause (1B), which states: \u201CIn setting the terms of reference for an inquiry the referring Ministers\u201D\u2014not the commission, I say to the Minister, but the referring Ministers\u2014\u201Cmust first consult with Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions to ensure that the concept of social partnership is embedded in the work of the Productivity Commission.\u201D This is where we get to why this is a particularly good model. If we have peak organisations in this country that equally have a vested interest in productivity, why do we not combine their efforts and their common interests in what has been, since the 1980s, called social partnership? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe previous Labour Government attempted to embed a modus operandi, in our 9 years in Government, of social partnership. I commend it to the National Government, not because it is something we supported but because it is something that would benefit and create some stability for all New Zealanders. There are some issues where we do not need to have policy swings from one end of the spectrum to the other with any change of Government, and this is one of them. We are as concerned about New Zealand\u2019s productivity as the members opposite. I do not doubt their concern about it, and I hope that they do not doubt ours. If we are to ensure that the greatest productivity can be extracted, for the best possible outcome\u2014that is, the well-being of, and the equitable distribution of the benefits of productivity across, New Zealanders for the sake of everybody\u2019s advancement\u2014then this legislation is a tool that will allow that to happen, if we understand that it does embed principles of social partnership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe principles of social partnership are very easy. They are simply respectful ones. They involve the recognition that there are communities of interest in New Zealand that deserve to have representation at the highest level. And in that representation, they deserve to have their views and their interests spoken about, and to be engaged with, so that areas of commonality can be found, as there were over the 9 years that we were in Government. There were substantial areas of commonality between Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions. Let me give one example of that: skills training. This Government abolished the Skills Strategy and has done very little in that space since it came into office, but the Skills Strategy is exactly the area of common ground that one could characterise as the best kind of social partnership. So embedding the notion of social partnership has very practical outcomes. Not only can it be applied in the upskilling of the labour force, which is clearly required by all evidence to date and clearly required if New Zealand is to become more productive, but it can also provide greater stability for moving forward in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EProductivity does not need to be something that is addressed by tribalism; it can be addressed jointly. If we are mature enough, in fact, to have a Productivity Commission that will provide contestable and independent advice to Ministers, then we are mature enough to embed in our processes and our legislation the notion of social partnership. This is not a quaint, left-wing notion; this is about moving modern, mixed economies forward, and whatever pedigree the notion may have had does not matter now. What matters is that this bill and the amendments that my colleague Lianne Dalziel has put forward really serve to embed the idea of a cooperative social partnership that can benefit, in this case, the productivity of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere are extremely practical issues here that would have very practical effects. Upskilling is one of them. Also, the promotion of the idea that events and workshops on productivity and educational tools and things of that sort might be paraded around the country, in a jointly sponsored effort by the major social partners in this endeavour to increase New Zealand\u2019s productivity, is a very sensible suggestion directed towards achieving that end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c06dcaca3971432e98ad06acb19fa522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c06dcaca3971432e98ad06acb19fa522\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on Part 2 of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, and echo the comments that have already been made about the way our Commerce Committee has worked on this particular bill. There was a lot of agreement as to the direction of productivity in this country\u2014one of the major issues, certainly, that our country faces going into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI will refer specifically to the amendments from the member Lianne Dalziel. Although I agree with most of the comments of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, I must say that Lianne Dalziel\u2019s amendment to clause 7 would fundamentally change that purpose clause. The amendment adds the words \u201Cthe development of a high wage, high skill, sustainable economy that delivers benefits on an equitable basis to New Zealanders,\u201D. I contend that we cannot have that type of provision, because she is suggesting, by this amendment, a guaranteed equality of outcome. I suppose that one of the fundamental differences between members on that side of the Chamber and those on this side is that this is not about guaranteeing equality of outcomes; it is about guaranteeing equality of opportunities. There is no way that we can guarantee that all the benefits derived from certain productivity advances will deliver benefits across the board, so I think that that amendment goes too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe made an amendment to clause 7 in order to have regard to \u201Ca wide range of communities of interest and population groups \u2026\u201D; I think that that was sufficient to suggest that the commission did not take on board one particular model of productivity. I thought we worked well on that clause. I do not think that the additions to the clause add anything; I think they actually detract from that purpose clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI move to clause 9(1). As the Minister has already said, some of the member\u2019s suggestions for new paragraphs (e), (f), and (g) of clause 9(1) can actually happen regardless of whether they are inserted in a clause. I do not think it is appropriate to insert those specific provisions in the clause, because the role of the commission is not to run workshops. I do not believe that the commission will have the resources for those types of operational matters. If we go back to the first principles of the bill, we see that the role of the commission will be to promote research, do the research, do the analytical work, work according to the terms of reference, and produce work that will advance productivity and policy-making, both in the private and public sectors, so that amendment would not be helpful to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EFinally, the amendment that would insert new clause 12(1B) requires Ministers to \u201Cconsult with Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions \u2026\u201D. Again, there is specificity in the clause, but what happens if the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions no longer exists? What happens if Business New Zealand no longer exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563d650bf13641d0b6bdc11fd5a4051e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That will always exist; don\u2019t worry!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae653b724cd40e6b552d41ce3282e58\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: That is the member\u2019s contention, but I think that if we start demanding, or at least requiring, in a clause that a Minister consults directly with certain organisations, it makes that clause unworkable. We should think again about whether we should demand a social partnership. That is not to say that we disagree with a social partnership; I think that that is important. But to require it in legislation specifically, I think, is going too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe do not agree with these amendments. We think the bill as it came out of the select committee was a good bill, and we look forward in the third reading to speaking about our bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022337fe760c3cb4c50aa74e655b38a5d11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022337fe760c3cb4c50aa74e655b38a5d11\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. It actually is necessary to inject a wee bit more of a positive tone into this debate after that rather impoverished contribution from the member currently representing Maungakiekie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3e132c3f2142d9848b3016b404ad4a\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The soon-to-be former MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225439977ccfd4e679d6fa963fd169401\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Maungakiekie is a proud tangata whenua name, blighted at the moment by\u2014but let me come back to the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. I would like to pick up one of three things that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, has said. A key part of the Minister\u2019s narrative has been the reduction of red tape and unblocking the bureaucratic imbroglios that stop firms and investors from achieving the sorts of outcomes that he would like to see. I acknowledge that that is the rhetoric and the political narrative that this Minister has. But to do that it is necessary to focus in a very, very sharp way on what some of the problems are and what some of the snarl-ups are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHow the commission develops its procedures will depend on whom the Minister, the Government, and the Crown appoint. We are starting with a rather dismal view not really directed in a personal way at the character who is going to be the initial leader of the organisation, as we know that he will not become separated or dislocated from this ideological baggage. We know that to be a fact, but we are going to have to deal with that burden. But if we are going to consult in terms of clause 13(1A)(b), \u201Cconsult with any persons, bodies, organisations, \u2026\u201D, I think it would be good if the Minister and his colleagues dedicated some attention to finding people who can actually liaise with a wide array of organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI have in mind here our M\u0101ori organisations, because this is a Government that is only too happy to parade its rhetoric up and down the country about how the emerging M\u0101ori economy represents something of a positive platform to grow the overall economy. That will happen when they are no longer as disengaged as they have become under this Government and its lacklustre partners in the M\u0101ori Party. It is going to increase the level of importance that we have the right woman or man capable of building bridges into that area, because there are some significant institutional problems there, not the least of which has to do with the land tenure system, with access to capital, and with the importance or forming the right partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt seems that the Minister of Agriculture, David Carter, has presided over the allocation of grants and capital into the agricultural sector in a wretched way. According to my colleague from the West Coast, Damien O\u2019Connor, it almost looks as if vested interests are being\u2014yet again\u2014rewarded. It is important that the Productivity Commission has people who can turn their attention towards the sector. Without the introduction of science-based capital, innovation, and clever research that is designed to meet the specific, distinctive institutional problems in that small segment of our economy, I think the commission could turn into something too ideologically narrow, or too full of puffery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOne of the redeeming features of the terms of reference concerns the commission working jointly with other agencies, including overseas agencies. I imagine that is an opportunity for the Productivity Commission to focus on what is happening in Australia. We already have enough of our Kiwis in Australia enriching the Australian economy. We need to get the right blend of people on the Productivity Commission, and emulate in our economic thinking what Australia has been able to do. The Australians do not deprecate or marginalise representatives from the labour movement, but integrate their perspectives into a broad plan to build the people as they build the economy. The member from Maungakiekie is quite entitled to speak against the very sensible amendment from my colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel, the chair of the Commerce Committee, but what he reflects is a very parched view about the underlying accord that we think is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac572a40947848ab8319d6a41cab45cc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Bleached and parched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7cab6bb70514d2a85a86fe508d7c853\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the word parched does strike me at this hour of the night, but it is still Thursday\u2014it is still Thursday, etc. I think I might need it at about 5 to 12, actually. Anyhow, underlying what the member from Maungakiekie was saying was the view that there cannot be meshing together of the perspectives of those who are in control of capital and the perspectives of those who are proxies for the voices of labour\u2014the voices of people. Yes, those people who are making investment decisions have to bear in mind the rights of shareholders. We have learnt about, and seen, a less atomistic approach being taken in Australia. It is less divisive than what we are seeing from our colleagues on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo in that sense, when the commission may be working jointly with other agencies, including overseas agencies concerned with improving productivity, it will come down again to who and how many people\u2014people who are not captives or cheerleaders for that narrow range of vested interests who do not want to see a Productivity Commission\u2014challenge the growing gap of haves and have-nots in New Zealand. In that sense, when there is a dismissal, and a jettisoning by our colleagues over there of that very useful contribution made in the form of an amendment, then we have every right to be concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe commission\u2019s work will actually not deliver any serious change unless the Government or the politicians of the day have faith and confidence in the quality of their work. Although Mr Wilkinson and Don Brash are hewn out of similar ideological matter, as represented on the other side of the House, they have been tossed aside. So we can see that National is prepared to throw even its own to the sharks. It reminds me of a great white shark coming out of the sea where there is a placid seal moving on the top of the ocean. Out comes the great white shark and snaps open its jaws, and down its gullet goes the seal. That is what happens to people such as Helen Kelly, who bring forward suggestions and contributions. I think she would be a fantastic contributor in that organisation. It is evident that those prospects are very narrow, because personal agendas are likely to intrude in terms of the kinds of characteristics a person will be expected to show, and also in relation to the areas of concern to productivity that will be focused on. That is a matter of some concern to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to come back to what I said before, which is that the commission has the ability to grow beyond three or four members, in the sense of appointing associate commissioners. I hope that those discrete projects flow from what firms, population groups, and communities of interest are telling the commission, and that they do not flow from the brainwaves of the current Minister or some of his colleagues. [Interruption] I want to be positive. I feel that I will be able to make a better contribution with a negative connotation at 1 minute to 12. I think I will reserve it until 1 minute to 12\u2014on Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3b9066912241458d1aba35e03315c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3b9066912241458d1aba35e03315c7\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about Part 2 of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, and, having given a relatively positive speech on Part 1, I will now do the opposite of my colleague Mr Jones and be a little bit more negative about this part. As we have gone through the debate, and Lianne Dalziel has put forward her amendments, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, has responded to them largely in a negative way, which has highlighted my concern. We have an agreement in principle that the Productivity Commission is a good thing, and we think it will be very useful for the future of New Zealand, but its usefulness will be in part about its durability in terms of being able to cope with the changing fortunes of political parties and some of the different agendas pursued by political parties. I think that the changes Lianne Dalziel has brought forward, in particular the change to clause 12, are examples of where the durability of the Productivity Commission could be enhanced, and that is through the notion of effectively developing the idea of social partnership within the Productivity Commission\u2019s terms of reference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we find it quite surprising that the current Government has not chosen to pursue the tripartite work that was going on in the skills area. Obviously, the Skills Strategy, which Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions have worked on with the Government, was a successful strategy. It was an example of social partnership in action, skill development, and the enhancement of skill. As my colleague Shane Jones has said, productivity is about people. One of the key drivers to productivity is enhancing skills and increasing training. Why this Government has chosen not to invest further in the Skills Strategy and, indeed, in keeping the skills forum going is a great surprise to us. From our point of view, this amendment to clause 12 is actually about ensuring that there is some durability and that there is some inclusion and involvement of the key participants\u2014the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, and Business New Zealand\u2014in terms of, in this case, workplace productivity and productivity generally in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is of great concern to members on this side of the Chamber that the Government is not prepared to pick up this kind of idea. It makes us wonder about the scope of the commission and how it will be used. There is an awful lot of power in the hands of the responsible Ministers. Of course, that is as it should be. Parliament is sovereign, and Ministers of the executive come to us and we hold them to account. Elected representatives should be controlling the direction of this work. But we want the commission to be able to work as broadly and as inclusively as it can, and we want the commission to be able to challenge the Government, and to challenge all the ideas and concepts that any Government is putting forward, and, in particular, the Government of the day. So it is disappointing from our point of view that there has not been a willingness in the Government to pick up the amendment to clause 12. But perhaps we should not be surprised. We should not be surprised, because the Government has largely ignored things in the skills area where that social partnership programme was working really very well indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOf course, there have been other issues around skill development\u2014the cuts in adult and community education, for instance, and the restriction on tertiary education places. None of that bodes especially well for a commitment to the core element of productivity, which is that of raising skills. But the opportunity is here for the Government to pick up Lianne Dalziel\u2019s amendment and get Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions on board. I do not buy Sam Lotu-Iiga\u2019s argument that somehow or the other this could be difficult because the names might change or something like that. We change things all the time in law when that takes place. This is about embedding social partnership in the Productivity Commission and it is very disappointing that the Government has chosen not to pick that up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to go back from clause 12 to the whole question of the membership of the commission in clause 10, which has been alluded to by a number of members. I draw on the example of the Treasury board that was recently put in place by Secretary to the Treasury, John Whitehead, no doubt talking with the Minister of Finance, Bill English. There was a great palaver about how this would be an excellent example of how Treasury would be able to reflect the community\u2019s interests and those affected by the fiscal policies and the overall policy framework that Treasury is responsible for. The names of those on the Treasury board came out and it was just the usual suspects. It was the usual board members, the professional board members, and we had concerns about one of them in particular and that person\u2019s links with the broader National Party. Generally the people who were appointed represented a very narrow range of people. They certainly did not represent the broader community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOur concern when we look at clause 10 on the membership of the commission, as others have said, is that Mr Sherwin\u2019s early appointment does not bode well. He reflects a particular ideological mindset, but, more than anything else, I think he represents a narrow idea of what this commission could do. As with the Treasury board and the commission, we should be thinking broadly. I remember thinking when the Treasury board was being appointed \u201CWhat about appointing someone like Diane Robertson, the Auckland City Missioner?\u201D. What about saying that we actually care about the impact of Treasury\u2019s policies on real people, as Shane Jones said\u2014not the big end of town; the other end of town? I really would encourage the Minister as we go forward in this process to find a way of getting a commission that is reflective of the very broad nature of productivity that we have been talking about tonight. Again, it does not bode well that the question of social partnership is dismissed so quickly, because I am quite sure that when we look at the commission\u2019s membership it will be a concern. That has been a concern for a number of members of the Labour caucus. We support the idea in principle but we have concerns about the way it will be implemented, and certainly Mr Sherwin\u2019s appointment is a very bad start in that regard. We want to make sure, as the commission is appointed in full, that it does not fall into that trap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will refer in my remaining time to the other amendments that Lianne Dalziel has put forward, particularly on the purpose of the commission. She is correct to identify the area of practical activities and I think that the commission could usefully take that up. There has been some very good work done by the partnership resource centre out of the Department of Labour in the last few years. It was an initiative set up by the fifth Labour Government and has drawn together the skills of people from the union movement and from the private sector around how to improve workplace productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cdc6ba4f41c444b86a0c6a52589e228\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s nothing on the website, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d913ae7bf314f57af2e3a7e977b044d\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will have to have a look at that. I can certainly introduce Mr Young to some of the people who have been involved in it. There are some private sector outfits. I know that Air New Zealand and one or two others have been involved and have really enjoyed their links with the partnership resource centre. Let us broaden out this definition so that the practical activities, which are like pilot projects that the partnership resource centre undertakes around productivity, could actually be part of the commission\u2019s work. I think Lianne Dalziel is on to the right point there, and\u2014again\u2014with the amendment that comes in under clause 9 on productivity projects. This is where the commission could have a more detailed mandate and a more detailed and practical ability to take on those projects. I think it is unfortunate that the Minister has ruled out accepting those amendments, because I think they broaden out the definition. Yes, we absolutely want research, and obviously we want the inquiries done, but we need to start moving a little beyond those to some practical projects that could be taken up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETo conclude my contribution at this time on Part 2, I say that it contains some very good points, but there are a number of clauses that could be enhanced. If we do not get this right, then the Productivity Commission runs the risk of being seen as pursuing a particular agenda. I hope it is not Mr Sherwin\u2019s old agenda\u2014it should not be, because we all believe that this is a good idea. We need to give the framework to ensure that the Productivity Commission can be durable across Governments and has the ability to undertake practical work in developing social partnerships. That is missing from Part 2 at the moment, and that disappoints me because in general this is a very, very good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00221e42253170f746fcabaf413a05f41f9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e42253170f746fcabaf413a05f41f9c\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f077da91ff9c48ecb802ed18d329796b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f077da91ff9c48ecb802ed18d329796b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to the Minister\u2019s comments when he ruled out the changes to clause 12(1B) that I am promoting, because I think he has misunderstood what the clause was. He went on to refer to clause 13 of the bill, which talks about who the Productivity Commission consults with. The reason I have moved clause 12(1B) is to make sure that it is the referring Ministers who consult with Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions when they are setting the terms of reference for an inquiry. There is a very important reason for this, and it goes to the regulatory impact statement, which of course I have downloaded off the website, now that it is no longer available in the bill as introduced. It says this about the consultation that was done on this bill: \u201CDiscussions were held with a small number of New Zealand senior public servants, current and past politicians and informed commentators from consultancies and academia. Discussions were also held with the APC, VCEC and Australian Treasury.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fc4ca0b749428db5f45084848b707b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s John Whitehead, Don Brash, and Michelle Boag. That\u2019s it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227293ee85a273419da9d0dad3cd2291fc\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Is that not a really good start to social partnership! That is the reason I want the concept of social partnership embedded in the setting of the terms of reference. Of course the Productivity Commission will talk to the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand\u2014that is a given. Everyone knows that it will do that. I am not seeking for any parameters to be put on who the Productivity Commission consults with. It will be putting out discussion documents and hearing submissions. It will then put out a draft report, as the Australian commission does, it will hear further submissions on that, and it will be ultimately reporting to the Minister after in-depth consideration and inquiry into these matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIf the social partners and if our trade union movement, those who represent the workforce, and Business New Zealand, which represents those who run our businesses, are not somehow embedded in the very proposals for the terms of reference for the inquiry, then what are we going to get out of it? That is what concerns me. The consultation on this legislation has not been as inclusive as it should have been. In fact, we are told in the regulatory impact statement that the consultation confirmed the Australian experience\u2014which is not surprising, since more Australians than New Zealanders were consulted\u2014and it was judged that further consultation in New Zealand would quickly reach diminishing returns. I think that is a little bit of an insult, given the huge contribution that both the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand made to productivity development in the entire period that we were in Government. For 9 years they were regarded as partners that sat at the table and were engaged in ongoing consultations with a range of Ministers. I was one of the Ministers they were engaged in discussions with. I think it is very unfortunate that the Minister dismisses the amendment on the basis of the commission\u2019s procedures that have nothing to do with the clause that I am seeking to amend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would really like the Minister to do is talk about the contributions from the different Government agencies that have been selected for contributing to the costs of setting up the commission and its ongoing running. When one looks at the level of contribution, the largest contribution comes from Treasury, which is not surprising; the Ministry of Economic Development, which is not surprising; and the Department of Labour. Why is the Department of Labour the other large contributor? Because workplace productivity is one of the major drivers of productivity. It is not the only one, and it is not supposed to be the only focus. But even the contributing ministries make it absolutely clear that the Government itself sees workplace productivity\u2014I mean it is micro and macro, but the micro is the workplace, and the Government itself has said that this is one of the three top contributors from departmental budgets for the setting up of the commission and its ongoing running costs; it is so obvious that the Government itself sees workplace productivity as a key driver to our productivity gains over time. So why on earth would the social partners not be included as part of the setting of the terms of reference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5f70efc06ec4126a2b2d0375139b1cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5f70efc06ec4126a2b2d0375139b1cd\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291aec93762c84e37ab8e7685e964b7a3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a fair question. The question is that the question be now put. Members of that opinion will say Aye, of the contrary opinion will say No. The Ayes have it. The question will be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122fc54cbac342ce807ad7fdd4cfeb05\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Party vote; come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229908987ffb87493194e4b3125f6cdd7d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I gave the member the opportunity to call for a party vote. I said the question will be put. I declare the vote, and if the vote is not challenged immediately for a party vote, we move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause and substitute the following clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E7\tPurpose of Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Commission is to facilitate policy development, practical activities, and research which will boost productivity on a sustained basis in order to support the overall well-being of New Zealanders, through the development of a high-wage, high-skill, sustainable economy that delivers benefits on an equitable basis to New Zealanders, having regard to a wide range of communities of interest and population groups in New Zealand society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022881f082732574b0fa3cfcad879d43d59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 20; Green Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437e88cd91da42779b9cef67aa2ecf81\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to members there is a very good reason for votes to be conducted in silence. I know it is difficult to constrain oneself when severely provoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (1) the following paragraphs:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E(c)\tsupport initiatives which develop practical productivity projects and provide and overview of the range of tools/models available to maximise multifactor productivity in workplaces:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E(d)\trun inclusive events/workshops on productivity and have educational tools and other information on its website:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E(e)\torganise events and other activities as appropriate with the Australian Productivity Commission:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E(f)\tproduce an annual report on productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002277a1cc5809d24d178ef5acf0a81cd041\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 24\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 20; Green Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001078\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to clause 12 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001079\u0022\u003Eto insert \u201CSubject to section 12(1B)\u201D at the beginning of subclause (1A);\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001080\u0022\u003Eto insert the following subclause after subclause (1A):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001081\u0022\u003E(1B)\tIn setting the terms of reference for an inquiry the referring Ministers must first consult with Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions to ensure that the concept of social partnership is embedded in the work of the Productivity Commission.; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001082\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause after subclause (3):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001083\u0022\u003E(4)\tMinisters and the Commission shall ensure that terms of reference require a range of models to be used in any research and analysis.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2ed25ed15224365ba3463b0cd2f4bab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 24\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 20; Green Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001084\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001085\u0022\u003ESchedules agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001086\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001087\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001088\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001089\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f15d7542e90b47ceb293cb5904263ba6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb2eceb17d40456489ebfe82141ed3f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb2eceb17d40456489ebfe82141ed3f5\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government) on behalf of the Minister of Finance:\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill be now read a third time. This bill establishes a new institution to undertake analysis and provide advice to the Government on matters that are of vital importance to the welfare of New Zealand and New Zealanders. Improving our productivity performance is a necessary condition if we are to maintain current standards of living, let alone improve them. Paul Krugman of Princeton University made the observation that \u201CProductivity isn\u2019t everything, but in the long run it\u2019s nearly everything.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s economic performance over the last 6 decades has been poor compared with that of most other OECD countries. In 1950 New Zealand was ranked as third among the OECD countries in terms of GDP per capita. In 2009, New Zealand\u2019s GDP per capita was ranked as 22nd out of the 32 OECD member countries. This indicates a decline in New Zealanders\u2019 living standards relative to those of people in other OECD countries. Following substantial reform, New Zealand\u2019s growth has been closer to, but still less than, the OECD average since the early 1990s, and New Zealand does not appear to have been as badly affected by the current global financial crisis as many other developed countries, although substantial risks remain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe gap in GDP per capita between New Zealand and wealthier OECD countries essentially reflects a difference in labour productivity, which stems from New Zealand\u2019s relatively low levels of both capital intensity and multi-factor productivity. Growth in New Zealand\u2019s labour productivity has generally lagged behind that of other countries, although there has been a significant variation in labour productivity growth across sectors and industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EClosing the GDP per capita gap with other advanced countries represents a formidable challenge. For example, closing the gap with Australia within 15 years would require New Zealand to exceed Australia\u2019s average GDP per capita growth over that period by around 2 percentage points. On the basis of the OECD\u2019s baseline projections, that would require New Zealand\u2019s average GDP per capita growth to be about 4 percent, which is more than twice New Zealand\u2019s average rate over the last two decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe will not meet the productivity challenge without an injection of new ideas. These ideas must be built on a solid foundation of evidence and analysis. It also requires those who undertake the analysis to engage fully with the community. Engagement with the community is important for a number of reasons. The first is that an evidence-based policy requires a deep understanding of what the real world is like for firms, entrepreneurs, employers, workers, and citizens. Second, the community can be a source of ideas. Third, the significant change that may be required to meet our productivity challenge affects the community, and it is important that those who may be affected have the opportunity to have their views heard and taken into account, and that the need for change is carefully and fully explained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWith this bill, we are establishing the legislative framework for an institution that will be a credible source of evidence-based policy. In creating this framework we have been guided by Australia\u2019s experience with the Australian Productivity Commission, which at the state level has been repeated in the Victorian Competition and Efficiency Commission. The New Zealand Productivity Commission will meet the key tests for an effective institution, as demonstrated by the Australian institutions. The commission will be given inquiries by the Minister of Finance, in conjunction with portfolio Ministers. Terms of reference for inquiries must be made public. The commission\u2019s reports must be tabled in this House. Both of these requirements add up to a highly transparent process. As an independent Crown entity, the commission will have statutory independence. This will encourage analysis and thinking that is unfettered by the policies and preferences of the Government of the day. It will be headed by three to four commissioners, who will lead inquiries as well as set the overall tone of the commission. The commission will conduct its inquiries in public. It must consult widely, and it must take a broad range of perspectives into account. It will not be an ivory tower unconnected with the real issues and opportunities faced by New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAn important part of the inquiry process, which was emphasised strongly by the chairman of the Australian Productivity Commission, Gary Banks, is the release for consultation of a draft report. This provides a rigorous test process for the analysis undertaken by the commission. Although the bill does not make this step in the process an absolute requirement, there is an expectation that the commission will consult publicly on draft reports. The commission is also able to initiate and publish its own research, which is an essential function for an institution that will be seen as a centre of excellence on productivity-related matters. I fully expect that the commission will become a focus for productivity-related research and debate in New Zealand, with strong links to Government agencies, academics, and thinktanks. In effect, having a specialist commission should lift the tide on productivity-related research in New Zealand. There will also be cooperation between the New Zealand and Australian commissions, further boosting capability and providing a foundation for work on strengthening the single economic market between New Zealand and Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe commission will be a unique institution in New Zealand that fills a gap in the current sources of policy advice. It meets the three critical criteria of having independence, competence, and community engagement. It can take the policy debate into areas where Government departments are not able to go, bringing new ideas to the table and testing conventional wisdom. It is destined to play an important role in charting the future of New Zealand\u2019s productivity performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFinally, I thank the Commerce Committee chair, Lianne Dalziel, and the other members of that committee for their work on the bill. In some important respects, the committee clarified what the commission is intended to be and strengthened the statutory processes that underpin its open, transparent, and consultative character. I am very pleased and honoured to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002291a4fce300ac46db809a4ef6e19fb684\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291a4fce300ac46db809a4ef6e19fb684\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will be supporting the passage of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. We sought to make amendments to it during the Committee stage, but they were not supported by the Government. I still believe that they would have strengthened the legislation, but so be it\u2014you win some, you lose some. What I want to do is focus on an important aspect of this law that the Minister of the Local Government just referred to in his address, where his comments almost exclusively focused on the role of workplace productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI refer back to a joint paper that Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions put together on productivity under the previous Government. Under our Government, they worked together in a social partnership. They worked in a triumvirate way with the Government. We had the Government at the table, we had Business New Zealand, and we had the Council of Trade Unions representing the workforce. That triangle approach was a very strong approach, because it provided protection for those who work within an industry from the kinds of excesses that we saw in the 1980s and in the 1990s\u2014so I will not reflect on Governments of any particular colour in this regard. It is very easy to think that productivity improvements can be imposed by cutting the cost of production through making the workers carry that cost. That was the experience of both the 1980s and the 1990s, and I do not think New Zealand has ever fully recovered from the serious impact that the Employment Contracts Act had on our workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will refer to the joint paper, where we had Business New Zealand working with the Council of Trade Unions on the definition of workplace productivity and on the issues that accompany it, which are infrastructure, and education and skills. We cannot get improvements to workplace productivity without talking about the lot. They all go together, hand in hand. This is what that paper said. It stated: \u201CAt a macro level, debates about productivity inevitably weave into the overall drivers for economic growth and therefore include tax, inflation, capital formation, population, global connectedness, adequacy of infrastructure, size of workforce relative to population, amount of capital goods relative to the workforce, degree of competitiveness, research and development incentives as well as the importance of education and innovation.\u201D That is the macro-level perspective. \u201CThere is a need to build a consensus around how to grow tomorrow\u2019s jobs based on investment in skill, technology, and good workplace relations to create high wage employment producing quality goods and services.\u201D That is why I moved in the Committee stage that we change the purpose of the commission to look specifically at boosting productivity on a sustained basis in order to support the overall well-being of New Zealanders through the development of a high-wage, high-skill, sustainable economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhat those organisations highlighted as critical among these issues were \u201CThe relative contributions of physical capital, financial capital, human capital and total factor productivity (or multifactor productivity);\u201D\u2014and that is the one element that the Minister chose to address in his comments. But there are also \u201CParticular capacity issues on infrastructural enablers\u2014physical capital investment in power/energy, waste, water, broadband, transport etc;\u201D\u2014those sorts of physical infrastructural enablers, as they describe them. \u201CDrivers of high quality physical capital investment at enterprise level;\u201D\u2014and, of course, we know that productivity improvements can be found through capital investment, as well. \u201CThe contribution of ICT; Lags between technological progress and productivity increases; Learning across boundaries\u2014networks, and clusters;\u201D\u2014that is, businesses operating together, regions operating together, and industries operating together. \u201CKnowledge generation, diffusion and adoption in the production of valued commodities; Gaining a critical mass of skills; Literacy and numeracy; Worker scepticism towards productivity proposals based on their experiences;\u201D. Anyone who lived through the 1990s will know perfectly well what that period meant by way of productivity improvement. They paid the price. They paid the price in lower wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d00ade6baf349c4966ec7c9d131e25f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: The wage gap extended out, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767e7f1c88e5486cbe48a6f0b1b6b7d4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: When did the wage gap extend between Australia and New Zealand, my colleague chips me to ask. It happened in the 1990s. Comparative wages between Australia and New Zealand were almost identical at the end of the 1980s. The 1990s were the period that produced the gap. Who was it who said that we could bring that gap down? Well, I think the Government engaged Don Brash in a 2025 Taskforce. Did members know that he is so productive that he spent 3 years of his salary in 1 year? That is pretty amazing. The Government set aside a certain amount to fund his salary as the head of the 2025 Taskforce and he managed to spend it all in 12 months. Well, that is very productive from his point of view, but no one else\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe next question is immigration policy and practice, and we all know that that is directly relevant. The there is \u201CMeasuring productivity in the service sector \u2026\u201D. That is a serious challenge. How do we measure a teacher\u2019s output compared with that of a dairy worker, for example? They are difficult questions, but all of these issues were put on the table by the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand when they were working collaboratively with our Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ENext are \u201CProductivity and the level and type of employment; The role of intermediate inputs (materials, business services, leased capital); Links between R\u0026amp;D and commercialisation;\u201D. What did this Government do to research and development in this country? It completely gutted it. It took away the research and development tax credit that Labour had provided, and it also destroyed the Fast Forward fund, which would have seen some major productivity gains in our primary sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ENext are \u201CThe role of institutions; The role of unions; Management styles; Organisational structure; Attitudes to business success and failure; Cyclical factors; Cultural factors; Distribution of productivity gains; The role of social development; and Robustness of assumptions in models.\u201D The point is that the Government simply has not been prepared to listen to the combined voice of Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions, because it has this absolute shuttered view of the engagement that is required in order to bring about these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI put forward three amendments. One was about the definition of well-being being extended into the wider area of equity, and another was seeing the Productivity Commission as the portal through which anyone can enter the productivity realm, from the micro level to the macro level. I thought the Government would have seen that as a major advantage, rather than as a disadvantage. And the final one was to embed those principles of social partnership into the work of the Productivity Commission. I was criticised for the amendments, on the basis that they sought to narrow the focus of the commission. But in fact it was the opposite. I sought to ensure that the importance of the workplace was not lost. I have a real fear that the Government only speaks to it and that it never ever is able to deliver on it, because it just cannot let go of its old-fashioned view of what is an important part of the equation, which is the workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EProcess is important. I turn to the process of the appointments so far. There has been only one appointment to this commission. Before the legislation has even gone through, we already have a chair-designate of the Productivity Commission. That process does not engender confidence on this side of the House. I will not comment on the individual himself, but he is not somebody I personally would have chosen. I hope the remainder of the appointments do ensure balance and reflect that concept of social partnership, because I believe that it is absolutely critical to the success of the Productivity Commission. But to receive a letter on a Thursday telling us that the Government will announce an appointment on the following Tuesday is simply intolerable and does not reflect very well on the Government\u2019s process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EFinally, I again place on record my thanks to Gary Banks for travelling to New Zealand and for providing such a good analysis for us to consider of how the Australian Productivity Commission has developed into an independent, authoritative voice on productivity. I think his ongoing support and offer of cooperation across the ditch is very welcome, and it is welcome on both sides of the House. When Labour is in Government we will take him up on his offer and we will ensure that the New Zealand Productivity Commission works as collaboratively as possible with the Australian Productivity Commission. I still believe that it will be possible to merge the two operations at some point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022888470a670014626af9b144c479ca786\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022888470a670014626af9b144c479ca786\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. After listening to the previous speech, by Lianne Dalziel, one would think that member was voting against the bill. The Commerce Committee broadly agreed with the general principles of the direction of the bill, although some amendments were proposed tonight that were sent from the union headquarters to Ms Dalziel, and went against a lot of what was discussed at the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis bill is about providing analysis and advice on productivity-related matters in New Zealand. The Productivity Commission will be tasked with bringing that to bear in terms of not just workplace productivity but also issues wider than that. It is about processes and systems, it is about technology, and it is about people. We listened tonight to the speakers opposite and we heard a lot about social partnerships. But, no, this is about productivity. We took a general approach to clause 7, \u201CPurpose of Commission\u201D, recommending that the clause be amended by adding the words: \u201Chaving regard to a wide range of communities of interest \u2026\u201D. That would mean that there would not be one model that we would rely on. Everyone agreed upon that, yet we had an amendment tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe committee looked at the functions of the commission and removed the emphasis on regulation. We placed more emphasis on holding inquiries and reporting to the relevant Ministers. The commission will be tasked with more than just workplace productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe biggest amendment that we considered as a committee was in respect of the terms of reference, relating to consultation between the relevant Minister and the commission. It would not include the unions and it would not include Business New Zealand, because it is about getting the terms of reference that are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. It will increase productivity, and it is another step in the right direction for this Government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002248877de82cdb43c7a50e735c5e9073ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248877de82cdb43c7a50e735c5e9073ca\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Barker. I preface this 10-minute speech by reminding members on the other side of the House, and in particular Tau Henare, of a famous proverb from where we both hail from: \u201CSmall though the dogfish may be, large is its volume and wake, inversely related to the multitudes\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI speak on behalf of the 20 members. I alert the House and those New Zealanders who were watching the previous speaker, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, that his seat is Maungakiekie. To Ng\u0101puhi \u201Ckiekie\u201D is the cry of the morepork. A certain sort of sleepy, tired, jaded character is reflected in the faces of our fellow colleagues on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI see Simon Power sitting there. We know that shortly he will be looking at productivity. I have no doubt that while he is away he will contemplate what can be done to improve Gerry Brownlee\u2019s conception of productivity. What can be done to improve his numeracy, in terms of how to count days during the months in the entire year\u2019s calendar, so that we do not have this pile-up at the end of the year, which is something of an outrage in the context of productivity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAn important part of productivity, which this bill in its far-ranging writ will have the chance to study, is the impact on our constitution and its relationship with the economy. This evening the constitution has been upheld as a consequence of members from that side of the House remaining here in Te Upoko o Te Ika, Wellington, right up to 10 or 20 past 9. I am sure that when future statisticians look at metrics for defining how extensive productivity has been tonight\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7508f41fed4e57bc5a43a9de618c29\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Just till the plane\u2019s gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6844dab78134e148c55e1b923ca9a25\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Before I finish talking about the connection between the constitution and productivity, I will look at productivity statistics in the airline industry, and whether there is scope for the airline industry to delay the departure of flights out of the head of the fish to the tail of the fish. I wonder whether the industry will build into its cost measures a reward for the members on that side of the House who are unwilling to challenge the foolishness of their Leader of the House and have, along with a number of us, enjoyed a Saturday right into the wee hours since Thursday. That Thursday will always be memorialised by the connection between my relation Tau Henare and a banana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221300627d26604d4a80d7c6c64c3a236f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e6e5d90bc848999166f9f2cca7010e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I want it noted that that laugh is not an accurate reflection on the glum expression from the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b382edf82e9d4a5f89365cf4fc91ae52\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s a question of where he put the banana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce2fd7226614e048e2a2dc5478ab644\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No, after my year, I will not go in that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESimon Power just stood up. I want the House to know about Simon Power\u2019s township of Marton. Whenever he misbehaves we will give the M\u0101ori name for his township, which is T\u016Btaenui, and let him know that a lot of his k\u014Drero and a lot of his behaviour may actually be informed by the M\u0101ori name for that township. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnyhow, I come back to some of the reasons why this side of the House will vote for the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. We want Rodney Hide to take this bill forward and make a success of it, because no one on that side of the House is actually generating a fresh set of ideas that will create jobs, incentivise investment, or pick up the young people leaving school or polytech and place them in the labour market so they can get some practical skills to begin earning a living. Under current policies not only will they struggle to generate enough earnings from a substandard education but they are unlikely ever to own their own homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI have just seen a vision of two mangrove berries in the face of the member from the Hauraki district; that is actually inversely related to productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnother thing we are hoping the Minister will pick up on is that when the members of the new Productivity Commission are chosen, they will have tenacity, they will show resilience, and they will be prepared to turn up for work day after day, hour after hour, minute after minute, and ensure that the integrity of this institution\u2014the highest court in Parliament\u2014is actually upheld, and that speeches are made that consume the last possible minute, so that not a skerrick or a sliver of the time allotted is squandered. That is why we will be supporting this bill pertaining to productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe will also be looking forward to see whether some members on the Government side of the House will actually be looking for jobs on the Productivity Commission after the next election. I am prepared to appeal to Mr Mallard, given that he is likely to be the responsible Minister appointing the characters to the Productivity Commission. I am prepared to appeal on behalf of some. [Interruption] Well, I have to tell the member from the Coromandel district that Hosea\u2019s tongue looks a lot better than that. When he does the haka one can actually see that it is an icon of cultural prestige. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThat member from Coromandel looks as if she is sitting too close to the Minister of Agriculture, who needs a dose of productivity. That man has enraged the most powerful and frightening businessman in Auckland, who is known as Michael Stiassny. The Minister has gone out of his way to potentially ruin the international meat export industry by focusing his finicky level of interest on unnecessary rules and harsh regulations, and he has alienated the community that Michael Stiassny comes from. Not only has he caused the Crown to incur a bill that is somewhere near $400,000 or $500,000, but he is living proof of why this Productivity Commission is needed. Virtually every agricultural thing he has become involved in\u2014horticultural, as well\u2014will need a massive dose of productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe look forward to working constructively with our colleagues on the other side of the House and being open and candid with them so they know our views about the types of people who ought to be appointed to the Productivity Commission. We do not really want to conceal any information from them. We do not want to obfuscate; we do not want to mislead them so that they may think their prospects are worse or better. All Mr Mallard has done is isolate the number of people who have waited this late in the evening to contribute to the debate. We are suitably impressed to see Mr Quinn and a host of others here at this fatefully late hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EComing back to the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill, we look forward to seeing the types of reports that will lie upon the Table of the House of Representatives after they have been commissioned and come via the responsible Minister. We hope a number of those reports are generated from firms and actual investors in the economy, because they need an avenue to bring forward their concerns, given that the ears of the current Ministers are blocked. They know that jobs are not emerging, that debt remains a problem, and that capital formation is still a weakness in the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThat may be possible through this Productivity Commission, which we have helped to come into being by ensuring that a large number of the Government Ministers and Government members of the House have remained here for this 72-hour Thursday. We are particularly impressed with their tenacity. Although they may entertain rather uncharitable thoughts about how many of us have remained on, I just finish by reminding them\u2014in particular, my relation Tau Henare\u2014of the k\u014Drero \u201CSmall though the dogfish, the pioke, may be, large is its volume and wake as it makes progress\u201D. Progress does not depend on multitudes of numbers. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00228d11bedf872141d4be34ed2218f55a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d11bedf872141d4be34ed2218f55a5c\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora koutou. I must say it is a pleasure to speak to such a full House this evening, and some could unkindly suggest that such a good turn-out from Government members suggests they might have too few opportunities for entertainment on a Saturday night, and too little else to do with their lives. But I am sure that that is not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill is a bill that the Green Party would have liked to support, but there are two compelling reasons why we could not. One of those was that the bill, particularly in its original drafting, was clearly intended to be a tool of the Minister of Finance, a creature of the Minister. It was clear from the language about the direction, or the frame, of the terms of reference that the notion of independence would have not been real. To be fair, the bill has improved in that regard, considerably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EFor the second, and I think compelling, reason not to support this bill, one can reflect on the last contribution from the chair of the Commerce Committee, Lianne Dalziel. In 10 minutes she gave a very succinct and very powerful analysis of many of the reasons for low productivity in this country. The reality is that we actually know the reasons and we know the problems, and we also have a handle on some of the potential solutions, so arguably the last thing we need is another Government body to do research. That might be a useful addition at some point, but there are a great many things we could do in the meantime that do not require $5 million a year, 25 public servants, and extended investigations, to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt has been noted that there is some irony in the fact that the solution to the perceived problem of lack of productivity has been a legislative\u2014or indeed a bureaucratic\u2014solution to what is seen as an economic or social problem. It is just ironic that that has come from the party that is so overtly the party of pro-business, anti-Government, one might say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne of our major concerns with the wording and content of the bill is the lack of prescription about what the Productivity Commission ought to do. That is a two-edged sword. The lack of prescription, the very broad-brush statements about the purpose and capacity of the commission could be a form of freedom, and it could indeed create an opportunity for the commission to do wide work across a wide range of topics and a wide range of communities; it could do a great deal of innovative and creative work. But in the absence of any requirement for it to do that, the very breadth of those statements, the very breadth of the purpose, could equally as well make this commission the creature of the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ENowhere in the bill, unlike in the Australian example\u2014and we have heard a great deal about the extent to which this commission and this legislation is modelled on the Australian example\u2014do we see reference to regional development. Critically, we see nothing about ecological sustainability, which is one of the requirements in front of the Australian Productivity Commission. There are statements in the Australian legislation that talk about overcoming indigenous disadvantage, about ecological sustainability, and about promoting the understanding of issues bearing on community living standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThose are serious and major issues, which could, as well, be confronted and dealt with in New Zealand, as the Australian commission is required to deal with them. It would be a very brave and a very well-resourced commission that would undertake investigation into something like overcoming indigenous disadvantage in New Zealand. It would require significant resources. It would require the blessing of the Minister, at least. We feel, very strongly, that in the realpolitik world no such mandate would be given, no such capacity would be allowed to the commission to do that necessary and useful work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that there is no definition of productivity in the bill, and we know that that word is amenable to a whole range of definitions. In the briefing papers made available to the select committee there was a notion that productivity was intended to be defined broadly to capture effectiveness, efficiency, and innovation. Clearly, innovation is a critical factor in turning round our economy, in creating more well-being, and in getting some sustainable growth. Productivity is one of the issues that will inform that. Innovation can come from large organisations. It very often comes from quite small, very tight, well-driven, and well-managed organisations. There are lots of examples of it within the small-business enterprise sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566822f05f9441168e61c166eba21d39\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8da87adab4d4147afc007a109f9dea3\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Hayes that 10 minutes has been allotted. I understand his enthusiasm to leave, but I ask him to please bear with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere are some inspired tinkerers in this country. We have the likes of Mr John Britten, the late-lamented Mr Britten. There have been numerous examples where very talented individuals have created opportunities, have created work, and have created benefits in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn talking about the need for the commission, it is interesting to reflect on some of the statistics about labour productivity that came from Statistics New Zealand earlier this year. It is interesting to note that between 1986 and 2008 New Zealand\u2019s labour productivity, overall, grew faster than Australia\u2019s to the extent that New Zealand over that time saw something like 2.5 percent growth in labour productivity whereas in Australia it was 2.1 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWhen one drills down into those numbers a little, one finds the trap of \u201Caveraging\u201D, of course. We know that New Zealand\u2019s productivity grew 3.2 percent a year compared with Australia\u2019s 2 percent, between 1986 and 1996. The situation reversed somewhat from 1996 to 2008 where New Zealand\u2019s labour productivity dropped to 1.9 percent and grew in Australia to some 2.3 percent. We can engage with some of the potential explanations for that turn-round, and they have been touched on earlier this evening\u2014for example, the fact that in the 1980s we saw massive unemployment emerge in this country. That is one way to increase productivity, but it is not a useful way, it is not a sustainable way, and it is not a way we ought to emulate or go back to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EPeter Maire, former chief executive of Navman, one of New Zealand\u2019s major technology company successes, has identified the value of, and the fact that, the old Public Service, the old much-maligned Public Service, actually had a major role in providing skills for the economy. A great many of the people we now find working on superyachts, and in the manufacture of high-quality superyachts in New Zealand, owe their basic training to the Navy. There are still people in senior positions in Telecom, in Gen-i, who did their basic training with the old Post Office. Nowhere in our economy have we got those same large-scale training grounds. That is leading to a fall-off in our skills base, especially in the technology area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn the 1990s in New Zealand\u2014about the point that the relative growth in productivity changed between New Zealand and Australia\u2014there was a deliberate and sustained effort to drive down incomes in New Zealand, to cut salaries, wages, and benefits. At the same time, Australia invested heavily in labour programmes and in easing out and building strength into the economy, in a way that did not happen in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI have made the point that we know what some of the solutions to the problem are already. We do not need long-winded investigations. At this point it is hard to see the necessity to establish an organisation that is dedicated to finding out what the problem is. We already know what many of the problems are. Under-investment in research is a major difficulty in this country. We continue to be burdened. Our education sector has a millstone around its neck, which is called the Performance-based Research Fund. It rewards academics who do research that can get published in esoteric international journals, but it positively punishes academics who do work that is of practical value here in New Zealand. Academics who undertake practical, grounded research that informs practice in New Zealand are not rewarded, whilst academics who do esoteric research get published in a journal that may be read by 20 people around the world\u2014that is being rewarded in a way that other things are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI will comment briefly on the appointment of the chair of the commission. We do wonder why the Government would appoint a chair before the legislation has been passed. That man has a long and honourable career; he has a 35-year career in the Public Service. But one wonders why the Government would put at the head of a commission that will require new thinking, innovation, and engagement, critically, with the private sector and with the business sector, a person who is heading towards the end of his career, with 35 years in the Reserve Bank, Treasury, and, briefly, in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. Where is the skill set that will develop a culture of innovation, of challenge? Because that, critically, is what a Productivity Commissioner will need. It will need someone who will push the boundaries\u2014who will break the boundaries. With all due respect to a long and honourable career in the Public Service, that is not where I would have gone searching for such a leader. For those many reasons, we will not support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022 data-id=\u00222c46c071e0d94d8f8fb9422675794ee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c46c071e0d94d8f8fb9422675794ee3\u0022\u003EHILARY CALVERT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pleasure that I rise on behalf of the ACT Party to support the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill. This bill is a direct result of the confidence and supply agreement between ACT and National. I look forward to seeing this bill pass and the commission begin its work in 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c10c7e72b73d49dc83200e96c42fe324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c10c7e72b73d49dc83200e96c42fe324\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I commend the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill to the House tonight. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229d2fb97c105e4c1abfd9f054efb96e08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d2fb97c105e4c1abfd9f054efb96e08\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is an honour to be here in front of such an appreciative audience tonight. It is quite interesting, from this side of the House, to reflect upon which National members are here tonight. I know that I cannot reflect upon who is not here tonight, but it is quite interesting to reflect upon who is here tonight and where they might fit in certain different factions within that party. We also have those sitting on the front bench, which is perhaps a window to the future of the National Government. Sandra Goudie, finally, has been recognised and promoted to the front bench\u2014it has finally happened. At the other end of the front bench we have Tau Henare. Finally, his merit and effort have been recognised once more. He is in Judith Collin\u2019s seat on the front bench. He is replicating Judith\u2019s hard-hitting fighting style. No, he is actually dead\u2014oh, no, he is alive. There he is, he has come back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWith regard to the Productivity Commission, I must say what a productive Opposition we are tonight. If we look at Labour\u2019s input on this side versus our output, we see that we are a very productive Opposition. I am not sure about the Government members over there, though; there are a lot of people there. I understand that for those members of the Government who have to stay in Wellington tonight and are not able to get home, there is a party at Chris Finlayson\u2019s house. A party is happening at Chris Finlayson\u2019s house tonight, as it is every night. That is what is happening tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to speak on the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221634c774d73e4077b0ad929d0e6c972f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got families to go home to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fefdc0c2a0f4fda92cff70dd7487d91\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: So have I, I say to Mr Henare\u2014so have I. I tell Mr Henare that I can speak very slowly for a very long time. This bill is excellent legislation. On this side of the House we are very proud to support it. I give credit, in particular, to the Ministers involved, Rodney Hide and Bill English, and to my colleague Lianne Dalziel, the chair of the Commerce Committee. They have done an excellent job in bringing this bill before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is much in this bill that I would like to see changed. But, in principle, the idea that we might have a Productivity Commission in New Zealand is a very good one, because productivity challenges have bedevilled this country for a very long time. Despite setting up a Productivity Commission\u2014I ask Mr Henare whether there is any gin in the glass he has just given me; I also ask whether those members over there have blankets\u2014there is still no plan for productivity, though, is there? There is still no plan for productivity from this Government. There is still no plan to increase skills. There is still no plan to invest in research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Government has managed to get the commission up and running, but there is nothing for the commission to do, is there, if it is about the agenda from that side of the House. Members on this side of the House proposed amendments tonight that would have improved this commission. They would have put a social partnership model in the bill. That would have had Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions at the table, but those amendments were rejected tonight by the National Government. The amendments were rejected because those members are not here for a social partnership. They are not here to build the productive economy with those people at the table. It is the big end of town or no one, if it is from that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis Productivity Commission deserves a durable model. It deserves to have a model, a mandate, and terms of reference that will survive the inevitable end of this Government and the arrival of a Labour Government. That is what this Productivity Commission should look like. At the moment, it lacks some key elements. It lacks an ability for social partners to be at the table. It lacks the broad mandate it needs to allow it to undertake practical, productive projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225bddf4323164a9985b246a0ee141121\u0022\u003EHon Hekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re talking about the bill now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6bd17ed4dea44cba3e27900ff2c816a\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about the bill, I say to Ms Parata. That is right, I can do this all night. The Productivity Commission is indeed a great idea, but it lacks the mandate and the terms of reference that would allow it to undertake practical projects in the productivity area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Productivity Commission also lacks the mandate to spread out to look at a range of issues beyond those that members on that side of the House might want it to look at at the moment. I share the concern that David Clendon raised about the lack of a focus on environmental sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8caf4435c3421a8b6f518fae086ae7\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t sound concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c1af18f1b947908e62b9f0660513a0\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The sow crate is outside, I say to Chester. It is OK; the member can go out there now. We on this side of the House also have the concern that the Productivity Commission needs to be able to look at issues of environmental sustainability. The Australian Productivity Commission is the model, and that is what it is able to do. It has produced a series of independent reports. That is exactly what the New Zealand body should be able to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ELabour has concerns about the membership of the commission. We have concerns about that, because, as Lianne Dalziel has pointed out, the process for the appointment of the chair has not been a good one. Murray Sherwin is a very competent public servant, but he is not the person who will be ambitious for New Zealand\u2014he will not be the person to drive the economy forward and close the wage gap with Australia. The National Government needed to be far more inventive than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6d7f8234f8c412b836f39d17259b3d5\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Who is? Andrew Little?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220836a9c82baf497084e67a944aa3c166\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will not be Tau Henare. One thing I can say is that it will not be Tau Henare. This commission needs people on it who are reflective of New Zealand and New Zealanders beyond the big end of town, bringing the social partners to the table. That is what will make this Productivity Commission work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMembers on this side of the House can support the bill and say that, yes, this is a good idea. This is something that Rodney Hide and Lianne Dalziel have worked on extensively together; this is something that we can all believe will do good things for us. But to be a durable model\u2014to be something that will survive changes of Government\u2014it needs a broader mandate. It needs to be an inclusive commission, and we will be watching very closely to make sure that happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say that it has been a rare pleasure to be greeted by the National caucus in such great numbers tonight. Those members\u2019 enthusiasm for the Productivity Commission\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34fdc9a362442de85ab8d2256464946\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Spirited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0291009e39049fe96de39356c2d72de\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that is right\u2014knows no bounds whatsoever. Even Paul Quinn has woken up. This has been a fine occasion, a fine evening, and, as the clock ticks past 9 o\u2019clock, Labour has achieved its goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022f365003c864941758d72cab176dc5669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f365003c864941758d72cab176dc5669\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I think that a very productive speech should be of high quality and delivered in a short period of time. The previous speaker, Grant Robertson, failed on both but he did try hard. This is a great bill. I commend it to the House. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022325da9bd1cd44cb9b44a987b39ccddb5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the New Zealand Productivity Commission Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 18; ACT New Zealand 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7a8a37ba2c14390b7c9e523c888be6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7a8a37ba2c14390b7c9e523c888be6c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before I close the House I am sure you would all like me to say thank you on your behalf to the Hansard reporters, the Clerk\u2019s officers, the messengers, Bellamy\u2019s staff, security, officials, and everyone else. On behalf of the presiding officers I would like to thank all members for their good humour and perseverance. I wish you all a safe trip home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.05 p.m. (Saturday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201012094525faeb32404f908c2178f45ccc0efd001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"