"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af11ee2a99544a8482534a6a7ad86269\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acd44b7b214d4215a15cd6c295a9819c\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000004\u0022\u003EKarakia.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ecfb964287e40bd844da9b04cadd6d8\u0022\u003EResignations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224da1885758c4416ba84b2e0dc875f611\u0022\u003EHon John Carter, Northland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a8f1b2624ca4cf491cf9d232c08afc4\u0022\u003EHon John McGregor Carter, National\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022a128ebe1e97341e997613f36d9b2ac71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a128ebe1e97341e997613f36d9b2ac71\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise the House that I have received a letter from the  resigning his seat in the House with effect at midnight on Sunday, 17 July 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022674d3dd681da498dadff4496903150de\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea8e65a264484d4c8500b56abf7969f7\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000010\u0022\u003EHone Harawira was presented to the Speaker, made the affirmation required by law, and took his seat in the House.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e93e952cd924b348bce5e1b7a331615\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc6df2d4eca9436ebe4e2bd0df7e7072\u0022\u003EHon Tini Whet\u016B M\u0101rama Tirik\u0101tene-Sullivan ONZ\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c276ee0bbe9e4b20b5d3cd6aa44a1b3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c276ee0bbe9e4b20b5d3cd6aa44a1b3d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 20 July 2011 of the Hon Tini Whet\u016B M\u0101rama Tirik\u0101tene-Sullivan ONZ, who represented the electorate of Southern Maori from 1967 to 1996. She was Minister of Tourism from 1972 to 1975, Associate Minister of Social Welfare from 1972 to 1974, and Minister for the Environment from 1974 to 1975. I desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for her memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHonourable members stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022407af673e4414ec79ec022899ac5bc01\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b24b7d60257448dab8a79e6951859a9\u0022\u003ECanada\u20142011 Prime Minister\u2019s Fellow, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, House of Commons\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00225a812a3b1f1248ddbb7af25d3ba98652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a812a3b1f1248ddbb7af25d3ba98652\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I now have much pleasure in informing the House that the 2011 Prime Minister\u2019s Fellow from Canada, the Hon Jason Kenney, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism from the House of Commons of Canada, is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226495127de4354d30974491d70cf9c5f5\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a60e59f7dd6643bab0b004717f84e207\u0022\u003ENorway\u2014Bombing and Mass Shooting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002211fc97a38e3642cdb517923674fb5c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211fc97a38e3642cdb517923674fb5c1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice on the two tragic attacks in Norway that claimed the lives of 77 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265dad026db3f4494aaf3f2e4d17c6208\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229af7c86ec4654109ac31b265ce4b2688\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the House express its sympathy and condolences to the people of Norway following the recent attacks that claimed the lives of 77 people. On 22 July 2011 the people of Norway witnessed two deeply shocking events. The bombings in central Oslo and the shootings on Ut\u00F8ya Island left many innocent civilians killed and injured. They were an appalling attack against Norway\u2019s democratic, open, and trusting society. Many of the victims were young people attending a summer camp. Tragically, a New Zealand - born teenager was amongst those killed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Government extends its heartfelt condolences and thoughts to the people of Norway as they grieve. New Zealand strongly values the warm relationship and shared values between our two countries. We are thinking of the families and friends who lost loved ones in this tragedy, and we hope those who were injured in the attacks recover quickly. I know that the people of New Zealand have shared in the horror of others around the world at hearing the news of this terrible event. Members of this House have been personally affected, and I take this opportunity to extend my sympathies to them today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe twin attacks in Norway resonate with New Zealanders not just because a New Zealander was, sadly, amongst the victims who were killed but because New Zealand, like Norway, is a peaceful country of about 4.5 million people. It is hard to imagine events such as this occurring on our own shores. To acknowledge how deeply shocking these events have been for the people of Norway, we stand alongside them at this most difficult time. We know that the people of Norway are strong and courageous, and that they will get through this. As Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has said, they will not be intimidated by these events. Norway will stand firm in defending itself as an open, tolerant, and inclusive society. This is an absolute tragedy. Our thoughts and heartfelt sympathy are with the people of Norway as they mourn the loss of so many lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e119e7ca446c445f8fc77259b02ea146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e119e7ca446c445f8fc77259b02ea146\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the parliamentary Labour Party, I support that resolution. Today, as New Zealand parliamentarians, we express our grief and our sympathy for the people and Government of Norway for the tragedy that they have suffered. We grieve for the victims and for their families. They were so young. Looking at their faces in the newspaper yesterday, we saw that they were full of enthusiasm, full of life, and looking forward to the contribution that they might make to their country and their community. But that was stolen from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ELike New Zealand, Norway is a small, stable, and peaceful country. This allows us, perhaps, to better understand the scale and the shock of the tragedy that has befallen that country with the loss of 77 of its citizens. Norway\u2014again, like New Zealand\u2014is a largely tolerant, multicultural country, where people live alongside each other and get on with each other. We can see that from the diversity of the young people who were gathered on Ut\u00F8ya Island for the Norwegian Labour Party youth conference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe share with the Norwegians their abhorrence that someone could be so motivated by hatred of others on the basis of their ethnicity or their religion that they could commit an atrocity of this nature. At the funeral of the young woman who was the first to be buried, Christians and Muslims walked side by side and embraced each other as an explicit and moving rejection of what had motivated the killer. As Eskil Pedersen, the leader of the youth wing of the Norwegian Labour Party, said: \u201CThe gunman took from his victims their lives. But he can\u2019t take away what they believed in: tolerance and anti-racism.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ENorway is a decent country. It is committed to a peaceful and more just world. It hosted peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It tried desperately to bring together the warring parties in Sri Lanka. The Norwegian Foreign Minister, Jonas St\u00F8re, and I worked closely together to pass the Convention on Cluster Munitions in Oslo. It makes it even more of a tragedy that something of this nature could have afflicted a country so committed to peace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe stand in solidarity alongside Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg when he says: \u201CWe\u2019re a small country but a very proud country. No one can bomb us to be quiet. No one can shoot us to be quiet. No one can ever scare us from being Norway.\u201D Today, as a fraternal party of the Norwegian Labour Party, we offer it our support and our sorrow at the loss of so many of its young people. We offer to the people and the Government of Norway our support, our condolences, and our sympathy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1ab572e3dd40d3b5d6caeec2405da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1ab572e3dd40d3b5d6caeec2405da5\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This forty-ninth Parliament has, I believe, had more than the usual share of grief. We have stood in silence over tragedies in Haiti, Afghanistan, Chile, Australia, Tonga, Poland, and Japan. Here at home we have mourned Pike River and, of course, Christchurch. We know, all of us in this House, what it is to come together to unite in a moment of grief and pay tribute. Yet we have not encountered, these past 2 years, the depth of evil that characterised the massacre last week in Norway. Mr Breivik\u2019s deed is in the category of major terrorism\u2014a crime against humanity. It equates with Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma bombing, Mohamed Atta with the twin towers, and the bombings in the Bali nightclub, on the Spanish train, and in the London Underground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWe know about mass sniper killings in recent times in the US, the Netherlands, Russia, and Britain. But those were mindless acts of deranged individuals. Last week\u2019s killing of 77 innocent young people was anything but mindless. This was a political act. So not only must we grieve for Norway, we must respond publicly and with one voice to a political act of destruction with a political act of resolve. We must answer a paroxysm of death with an affirmation of life. The tribute we pay to the slain youth of Norway as they went about their engagement in a political party must be to reaffirm the very civic values they were expressing in their final moments here on Earth. If their lives are to have meaning above mortality, a legacy beyond their short span, it will be because we determine here as a nation to celebrate all that is uplifting with the human spirit. Let this nation now proclaim the human values these young Norwegians were living at their moment of death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI know from personal experience how close we in the Antipodes are to those in the most north-eastern tip of Europe. I lived and worked for 3 years in Sweden and I visited Norway often. I worked closely with one of Norway\u2019s most prominent leaders, Thorvald Stoltenberg, former Foreign Minister and UN High Commissioner for Refugees, UN representative on the Yugoslav crisis, and father of the present Prime Minister. Mr Stoltenberg was a strong guiding light on the boards of my institute in Sweden and the UN Academy I directed in Jordan. It was in his house in Oslo that my wife and I met the Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, some 6 or 7 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EOn Saturday evening last I telephoned Thorvald to convey New Zealand\u2019s concern over this event and our empathy for the Norwegian people. I said how much we admired the manner in which the Prime Minister was rallying his people, demonstrating to the world the sanity, stability, and tolerance that characterises his nation. Thorvald responded with Nordic simplicity. They were, he acknowledged, going through tough times, but they would emerge stronger for the experience, simply because they would refuse to be intimidated. Yes, he said on a personal note, he and his wife were proud of their son. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EIt was Thorvald who once told me that of all the countries in the world, he thought Norway and New Zealand were the closest. We shared geographic isolation. We knew the sea. We were small in number yet large in spirit. Our people were rugged individualists yet we cared one for another. To this day I take his observation as one of the greatest compliments my country has been paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe Norwegian massacre is not just a national tragedy; it is a global tragedy. All of humanity shares in this together. Norway is leading the world in its display of national commitment to global tolerance. Let us all support her in embracing the seven global values that have been identified by our Governments at the UN General Assembly: freedom, equality, solidarity, tolerance, human rights, respect for nature, and shared responsibility. By embracing all faiths, by celebrating our common human values, we shall convey the true response to the Norwegian massacre and validate those who fell. Let us incorporate that tolerance, that wisdom, and that understanding in our own parliamentary work here in this country today and hereafter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u00221b9e32a1459f46f3bd8037836cd5a805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b9e32a1459f46f3bd8037836cd5a805\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It was with disbelief and horror that New Zealand and the world learnt the devastating news of the bombing in downtown Oslo and the subsequent shootings on the island retreat of Ut\u00F8ya, which claimed 77 lives. I, along with my colleagues in the ACT Party and this House, express our deepest sympathies to the people of Norway, which, with a population of 4.5 million, is not much bigger than New Zealand. More specifically, we send our thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of the 77 victims whose lives were cut so tragically short that day. We know that words will not ease the sorrow, but we hope that you will find some small comfort in the knowledge that we here in New Zealand stand beside you in this time of tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIn the aftermath of this horrific event, the people of Norway, which is home to the Nobel Peace Prize and known for its peacefulness and liberalism, have shown the world how to face adversity with courage. Norway\u2019s Prime Minister addressed his country in the aftermath of this attack and was not intimidated. He has vowed that he and his countrymen will not bow to the will of a madman, that his country will fight back with more democracy, and that 22 July will be a very strong symbol of the Norwegian people\u2019s wish to be united in the fight against violence and a symbol of how the nation can answer with love. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIt is a sad reality that tragedies such as this can strike even the most peaceful of societies. But what we can all learn from Norway is that the best way to honour the lives of those who die at the hands of such violent and repulsive people is to fight for and preserve the greatest aspects of humanity: peace, tolerance, and democracy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00228bcb6ca0b3bd47cdb1f9be8576aef57f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bcb6ca0b3bd47cdb1f9be8576aef57f\u0022\u003EHon Dr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e Mr Speaker. Today marks another occasion in the life of this forty-ninth Parliament when we stand shoulder to shoulder to share the collective grief at the loss of life on such an immense scale. The massacre on the island in Oslo unfolded on 22 July, exactly 5 months to the day since the Canterbury earthquake robbed our nation of so many lives. And so we feel that sense of tragic futility that comes in the wake of a disaster of such a scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut we have another special connection to the events that played out in Norway, which comes through our relationship to Sharidyn Meegan Ng\u0101hiwi Svebakk-Bohn, a young woman described as beautiful, caring, and vigorous, a young woman mourned by her grandfather Rex Matthews of Kahungunu, who lives in Porirua. She was a mokopuna who is also sadly missed by the people of T\u016Bhoe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESharidyn, known as Sissi, was, from all accounts, thriving in the activities of the youth camp on Ut\u00F8ya Island. She had turned 14 just 5 days before being shot down at the camp by Anders Breivik, who stands accused of killing 77 people in the bombing and shooting rampage. She was a young woman robbed of experiencing the fullness of life, and someone described as a courageous young lady who took every challenge with ease. She was a child who had been nurtured by her family to care for others, to be a proud tuakana to her sisters, and to make an energetic and compassionate contribution to our society. Our sympathies are extended to her parents, her two younger sisters, and the wider wh\u0101nau, whether they are here at home or in Norway. Rest in peace, Sissi, and all those who lost their lives that fateful day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI have no desire to give further air time to the vile racism and murderous intent executed on that horrific day. The global condemnation of this massacre has an unfortunate consequence of drawing attention to the ideology the gunman sought to promote. I want to instead focus on the message that the Prime Minister of Norway expressed, and that was a message of restraint. Jens Stoltenberg called on political leaders to show restraint as they react to the savage violence meted out on the 77 victims of the bombing and the youth camp attack. His words are very insightful, and I will quote them. He told the Norwegian Parliament that the 22 July attacks gave reason to contemplate \u201Cwhether we could have expressed ourselves differently. That goes for politicians, for editors, in the canteen and on the Net.\u201D The judiciary and even the court of public opinion will make their respective judgments about the actions of the confessed killer and the appropriate sentence he should receive. What we have a responsibility to do is to focus on the families bereft of loved ones, the community feeling as if their sense of peace and stability has been irreversibly threatened, and the global nation as we respond to the profound grief and sorrow experienced in Norway just 10 days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party joins with others in this House to express our utmost sympathy to the families associated with this dreadful day in the history of Norway. We acknowledge too the particular loss for the Labour Party, which connects to its colleagues across the globe. We resolve to continue to promote the values that we have inherited that are found in tikanga and kaupapa M\u0101ori, as a means of supporting us or finding a pathway forward during times of duress. These kaupapa remind us to place value on unity through diversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, Sissi, koutou ng\u0101 mate o t\u0113r\u0101 parekura, tae noa ki ng\u0101 mate o t\u0113nei w\u0101, a Whet\u016B Tirik\u0101tene, ng\u0101 w\u0101hine rangatira i mate mai i t\u0113nei wiki, haere koutou i te m\u014Dhio, ka arohatia tonutia e m\u0101tou nei ng\u0101 m\u014Drehu, haere atu r\u0101, haere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[So to you, Sissi, and the victims of that calamity, including the deaths of the moment: namely, Whet\u016B Tirik\u0101tene, and the noted women who died in recent weeks, journey on in the knowledge that we, the remnants, will always love you. Farewell, depart.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb8518e2210141c5b0df03d8dcf5fa19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb8518e2210141c5b0df03d8dcf5fa19\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E I join with colleagues in the House in expressing profound sympathies to the people of Norway. How moving and poignant this tragedy has been for those of us who have spent our lives encouraging young people to believe that politics can make a difference for the better, and to believe in the politics of hope. Among the many tragedies and outrages of these killings towers a brutal truth: they died because of politics; they died because of hatred. They were at a summer camp conceived to nurture a new generation of young people, and they were targeted because they symbolised the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe attacker was, of course, deranged. Atrocities are always the work of a perverted mind. Therefore, the atrocity is not a reflection on mainstream political ideas. Right-wing extremism is not the same as conservatism, and it is unhelpful to confuse the two, and offensive to collate the resulting possibilities. There are vital lessons for mainstream politics, nevertheless: that we should challenge hate speech and the politics of hate wherever we see it. Those who set out to divide one group of people from another are always wrong. When hatred and racial divisiveness are seen as deeply abnormal, the obsessions and ravings of extremists will stand out more obviously. The more abnormal their hatred becomes, the more it is obvious that we need to intervene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EJust because the attacker\u2019s ideas were twisted, we should not say that his actions were isolated. It is too complacent to just dismiss him as a madman. We do not make that claim about jihadist terror. If it is offensive that the murderer in Oslo used Christianity as a justification for his crimes, we should use our feelings of offence to understand how offensive it is to Muslims when the extremist haters of al-Qaeda use their religion as a perverted justification for hate crimes too. In both cases, a toxic mix of political and religious hatred results in people using a perverted interpretation of their religion as a justification to commit unspeakable crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EHowever, it is wrong to believe that this hatred is conceived in a vacuum and that it is just a case of one person gone crazy. Atrocities are brewed in a sewer of hatred. Many commentators have noticed the rise of an especially ugly form of racial divisiveness across Europe. It objects to the presence in Europe of large Muslim communities. Those promulgating these views cannot expect to promote an ideology of hatred, call it Christianity, and then pretend to be surprised when that ideology descends into criminality and mass murder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EWe have been fortunate in New Zealand to be spared the worse excesses of racial hate politics and the return of neo-Nazism, but we are not immune from it, and we need always to be vigilant. We should not be cowed from discussing sensitive issues just because they touch racial boundaries, but we also have a responsibility to make sure we err on the side of love, not hate, on the side of welcoming, not dividing, and on the side of peace, not violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe ideas of love, tolerance, and peacefulness have always been the underlying values of progressive politics of all shades. Those are exactly the values the mass murderer hated and tried to destroy. That is why Labour parties, progressive parties, and social democrats around the world feel that a part of us was attacked on that summer\u2019s day in Oslo. But we know this too: no haters can ever succeed, because they cannot kill ideas. They cannot kill values. They cannot kill humanity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAll of us are shocked by the horrifying violence in Norway. On behalf of the people of my electorate, Wigram, members of the Progressive party, and my colleagues in this House I say that we stand with the people of Norway in our sympathy and in sending our deepest condolences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00223e6200c55a584fbead2631f3fce4821a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e6200c55a584fbead2631f3fce4821a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E In a world that has perhaps seen just about everything, there is an inevitable tendency to view tragedies, as they emerge, as being part and parcel of the world we live in today. We are all afflicted by that awful complacency. But this particular tragedy\u2014the wholesale slaughter of vibrant, innocent, fresh-faced young people\u2014stands out above many, and cries out for a response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is easy to say that this was the act of a lone, crazed gunman in pursuit of a particular ideological dream. That may be so, but the reality is deeper. The events that took place that particular day in and around Oslo are so unspeakably rare and unusual as to evoke within us all a sense of asking whether it could happen here. Our initial response is to say: \u201COf course not. We are a benign and tolerant society. We do not have those sorts of divisions.\u201D, yet the same thing could be said and was being said about Norway. So while we mourn the deaths of those who were so callously slaughtered, and while we extend our sympathy to their country, to their political colleagues, and to their families on their inordinate loss and wonder how on earth that gulf in their lives will be filled in the short term, we need to reflect upon the implications for so-called good and decent societies like ours and Norway\u2019s around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIntolerance and prejudice, wherever they fester, have to be looked on as totally unacceptable, and we have to redouble our efforts in the wake of this sort of tragedy to ensure that those elements do not come to prominence in our society and in kindred societies elsewhere. Just as the shock and the horror of what happened in Norway was because no one could have possibly contemplated such events occurring in that country, we must be mindful lest a similar form of understandable complacency lead to our having similar misgivings in the future when events occur much closer to home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis is a wake-up call for all. It is not a call for witch-hunts or a call for meeting intolerance with more intolerance, but it is a very strong call to all of us to do what we can to stamp out the root causes of intolerance and prejudice, and of anger and hatred in our society. I believe that the greatest tribute we could pay those who fell so wantonly in Norway is to make that commitment: to ensure that their lives were not in vain and that their memories are spurs to us all in the free and democratic world to be tolerant, to be just, to be free, and to be open in the future. That is what they thought they were about on that particular afternoon. Their lesson to all of us should not be in vain. Our sympathy for their country and their families is immense and profound.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00222671cf81096f44589e305d7830525481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222671cf81096f44589e305d7830525481\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Kaiw\u2019akaw\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. Hoi n\u014D, taku reo tuatahi i roto i te Whare i t\u0113r\u0101 atu wiki, he \u0101mene atu ki te Tiriti o Waitangi, taku k\u014Drero tuatahi hei rangatira m\u014D te R\u014Dp\u016B o Mana, he mihi atu ki te hunga kua mate, r\u0101tou kua w\u2019et\u016Brangitia, kua ngaro atu i a t\u0101tou h\u0101koa, kai t\u0113r\u0101 taha o te ao. E tika ana kia mihi atu ki a r\u0101tou me w\u0101 r\u0101tou w\u2019\u0101nau e tangi tonu ana i t\u0113nei w\u0101. N\u014D reira, e ng\u0101 mate, haere koutou, haere koutou, haere koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EE mea ana te k\u014Drero, mate ana he t\u0113t\u0113 kura, ara mai r\u0101 he t\u0113t\u0113 kura. I t\u0113nei w\u0101, ko ng\u0101 putiputi kua mate. R\u0101tou k\u0101tahi an\u014D kua pu\u0101wai. Ng\u0101 whakaaro rangatira, ng\u0101 wawata hou kei roto i a r\u0101tou kua mate i te r\u0101 nei. N\u014D reir\u0101, he tangi nui t\u0113nei ki a t\u0101tou katoa roto o te ao me te mea an\u014D hoki e tika ana kia mihi atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 o w\u0101 t\u0101tou k\u014Dtiro n\u014D Kahungunu. E Pita, me mihi atu ki a koe i whakam\u0101rama mai i t\u0113r\u0101 ki a m\u0101tou, kia m\u014Dhio ai m\u0101tou h\u0101koa kua tawhiti atu, kei t\u0113r\u0101 taha o te ao, he mate e p\u0101 ana ki a t\u0101tou o roto o Aotearoa. N\u014D reira, me mihi atu ki a r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu me te mea an\u014D hoki i te mea t\u016B ana au, e tika ana kia whakahokia mai taua mihi ki roto i a t\u0101tou, te mihi an\u014D hoki ki ng\u0101 mate roto i a t\u0101tou o Aotearoa nei. T\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 wahine, he pou o te reo M\u0101ori, a Katerina Mataira, i mate atu, i ngaro atu ki roto o t\u014Dna marae i \u014Chinewaiap\u016B i t\u0113r\u0101 atu wiki, haere e te wh\u0101ea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ET\u0113r\u0101 noki, te wahine rangatira o Te R\u014Dp\u016B Wahine M\u0101ori Toko i te Ora, a Meagan. Kua mate atu, kua ngaro atu ki roto o M\u014Dhaka. Me t\u0113r\u0101 o w\u0101 t\u0101tou nei kuia o te Whare, a Tini Whet\u016B M\u0101rama Tirik\u0101tene-Sullivan. E tika ana kia mihi atu ki a ia, kia maumahara atu ki ng\u0101 mahi e mahingia ana e ia me t\u014Dna p\u0101p\u0101, me \u014Dna kaupapa katoa m\u014D te Tiriti o Waitangi. Mihi atu ki a r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu i a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHoki mai ki a t\u0101tou an\u014D r\u0101 e te kanohi ora, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. Greetings to us all, the House. My first words in the House the other week were to affirm the Treaty of Waitangi, and my first address now, as leader of the Mana Party, is to pay a tribute to those who have died, passed on, and gone from us, even though they are on the other side of the world. It is fitting at this time that they are acknowledged, with their families who continue to mourn them. So to you, the dead, farewell, depart, journey on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThere is a proverb that says that when a fern frond dies, another rises up in its place. It is the flowers, in this case, that have died. They had only just blossomed. The revered thoughts and new aspirations inside them have died today. So this is a huge tragedy to all of us in the world. Further to that, it is fitting, as well, that I pay a tribute to one of our young ones of Kahungunu descent. I acknowledge you, Pita, for explaining that to us, and making us aware that despite the distance\u2014and it is on the other side of the world\u2014the tragedy affects us here in New Zealand. So we must pay our respects to those who have gone; and at the same time, it is fitting, as I stand here, that I bring that tribute back here among us and acknowledge the deaths amongst us here in New Zealand. I refer to that one of our women, Katerina Mataira, pillar of the M\u0101ori language, who died last week and is gone from her marae of \u014Chinewaiap\u016B. Farewell, aunt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETo Meagan, as well, president of the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League: she passed away, gone from M\u014Dhaka; and also Tini Whet\u016B M\u0101rama Tirik\u0101tene-Sullivan, one of our elder woman members of the House. It is fitting that I pay a tribute to her, and recall the work that she, and that her dad did, including all her policies relating to the Treaty of Waitangi. Today I acknowledge those who are gone from us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo in coming back to us once again, I say greetings to you, greetings to you, and greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00224bfdbaa0bdd8468e8bda6b7e08d95b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bfdbaa0bdd8468e8bda6b7e08d95b7e\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Across this Parliament we share in Norway\u2019s mourning today. Right now in Norway, at 4.30 a.m., parents will be sitting by hospital beds. As the Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, said: \u201CMany are weeping. Hearts are bleeding.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ENorway is famous for its peacemaking and its peacekeeping role around the world. It is known as a stable and compassionate society whose leadership on peace and disarmament is recognised and respected the world over. We are very alike in our size, our geography, and, more important, our values. I remember being welcomed to the Norwegian Parliament during the Speaker\u2019s tour in 2007 with colleagues from a range of parties across this House. The overwhelming impression\u2014again, across a range of parties\u2014was one of mutual respect. We had and have a lot in common. That such a destructive event should happen in Norway is almost beyond comprehension, but comprehend it we must. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn standing with the Government and the people of Norway at this time, we pay a tribute to the responses of the leaders, who are calling not for revenge or hatred but for more democracy, more humanity, and more compassion, but not with naivety. An attempt to wipe out a generation of political leaders is profoundly shocking. We in the New Zealand Labour Party feel it deeply because of our close ties with the Norwegian Labour Party and its youth wing. Our MPs know their MPs; our youth leaders know their youth leaders. But this sentiment is shared across every political party in this House. As Ella Hardy, president of Young Labour New Zealand, said: \u201CThrough the last week we have shared our message of solidarity and empathy with our brothers and sisters in Norway. They died for their belief in social justice, anti-racism, and tolerance. They died trying to make the world a better place. Let racist ignorance be ended.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EDignity and democratic values have emerged through the intense grief of the Norwegian people, but special words are needed for the young. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said them: \u201CI want to say this to all the young people here. The massacre on Ut\u00F8ya was an attack against young people\u2019s dream of being able to help to make the world a better place. Your dreams have been brutally crushed. But your dreams can be fulfilled. \u2026 I have a simple request to make of you. Get involved. Care. Join an organisation. Take part in debates. Use your vote. Free elections are the jewel in the crown of democracy. By taking part, you are saying a resounding yes to democracy.\u201D That courage and that conviction can never be defeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f0a3fbe6a2e48ce8f8d230e09affa09\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f964d09000c44566b5a8147dfed89588\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00223f61ea1ad93b42acbacd83812eeafa87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f61ea1ad93b42acbacd83812eeafa87\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On 14 July when the House was considering the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, the result of the vote on the question that the bill be read a second time was incorrectly announced as Ayes 67, Noes 53. The correct result is Ayes 65, Noes 53.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223498fe5654d64caba8efc5440ab72cf9\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cae17b84143429c8f5557eb3f37a72e\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022178dc9d6ff9147859d26622b6a16d51d\u0022\u003ELiving Standards\u2014Inequality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229163b62593c14179a5278c22797c926a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229163b62593c14179a5278c22797c926a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CI think we all have to accept that there is a degree of inequality in New Zealand\u201D; if so, has he read any recent reports on the growing gap between rich and poor in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00220577b5d3dc98473ca6575fbe029474e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220577b5d3dc98473ca6575fbe029474e8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by that statement, and I have excellent news for the member: a very detailed scientific report on income equality actually went up on the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s website at 2 o\u2019clock today. It is titled Household Incomes in New Zealand. The report shows that income inequality in New Zealand, under standard measures like the Gini coefficient or the 80:20 ratio, has actually fallen in recent years. I go on to say that in fact the report shows that the distribution of income in New Zealand is more even now than it was at any time under the previous Labour Government. So I point out to the member that he is quite wrong to say the gap between the rich and the poor has been growing; in fact, it has been reducing. I urge the member to read the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222801deeb0f964f5782e4cb607e15e38c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does today\u2019s release from Statistics New Zealand, which shows that wages and salaries have gone up by 1.9 percent over the last year\u2014that is, by well under half the rate of inflation\u2014and the release a couple of days ago from the National Business Review, which shows that 150 people, the richest New Zealanders, increased their wealth by 20 percent, actually suggest to him that the gap between wealthy and other New Zealanders is narrowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf39da9173d4ea389d2b7cb0982ae97\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, let me take things in reverse order. In terms of the rich list, let us understand what that is. It is a list from a bunch of journalists, who are making up stuff on the best estimates they have. If we want to go to the facts, let us go to the household income survey that was just put on the website at 2 o\u2019clock. Secondly, the member uses the Labour Cost Index, which, as he knows, is not the best measure, actually, of the increase in wages in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c1821a1f4246e7a5dae88a40566ce8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275494872cdc944809d0218325df1a89f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well the member goes \u201COh!\u201D, but for 9 years the Labour Government set New Zealand superannuation off the quarterly employment survey. In fact, the Labour members believed in it so much that in 2001 they changed the law to ensure that the quarterly employment survey was used as the basis for superannuation in New Zealand. So if they want to go out and tell the pensioners of New Zealand they got it wrong, they are welcome to do that. But the quarterly employment survey, which also came out today, shows this: average weekly earnings are up by 1 percent for the quarter, by 4.2 percent for the year, and by 7.4 percent in after-tax terms, and in fact the average wage in New Zealand has now risen to $51,123.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ededb5c488f4c128be92252ba103600\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: If there was a skerrick of truth to anything that was in that report, how does the Prime Minister explain that groups like the Salvation Army and the Auckland City Mission are reporting that more and more people are coming for assistance because the soaring cost of living, particularly for food and other necessities, is forcing them and their kids below the poverty line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc0e66fb57946089680f32e07ccaee0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, we need to acknowledge there has been a global financial crisis and that it has dealt a very severe toll to a lot of New Zealanders. We accept that. The second thing we would say is that the Government has spent the last 3 years ensuring that it has done whatever it can to help the most vulnerable New Zealanders through. That is why we did not cut pensions. That is why we did not cut Working for Families payments. That is why we have preserved the income of those New Zealanders as best we can. We do know that we need to move more people off benefits and into work, and the Minister and the Government are working very effectively on that matter. Lastly, I look at the household income survey that came out today and I see that it shows that inequality between the rich and the poor has fallen. It is at the best level that it has ever been, including the level under any other previous Labour Government, and what a wonderful report that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298cfcc6bb41e4e25ae5a2dde8628d1d0\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister not understand that notwithstanding a global financial crisis, the 150 richest people in New Zealand in the last year increased their asset value by $7 billion\u2014$7 billion for 150 people\u2014and every one of those 150 got more than $1,000 a week from him in tax cuts, while somebody on the median wage got just $14 a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b477b9ce4e444847881c4f30db9cf199\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I deal in facts, and the facts are in the Household Incomes in New Zealand survey, which was put on the website at 2 o\u2019clock today. As I said, the rich list is a report made up by a bunch of journalists. But what I can note is this fascinating fact: I am amazed that the Leader of the Opposition has had time to read the NBR Rich List, because apparently he did not have time to read the briefing report he got on so-called Mossad agents in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d71f13878948d485b044d829d0bb68\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the Children\u2019s Commissioner, Dr Russell Wills, who said paediatricians\u2014and he is one himself\u2014are seeing kids who become ill, develop behavioural problems, fail at school, and do not have their basic needs met because their parents are poor; and does he accept the New Zealand Herald assessment this week that those numbers are growing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759c33e11cb44420adb7f6cba99dc433\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot comment on the last bit, but I can comment on the first piece. I agree with Dr Wills\u2014in fact, I met with him this morning. I can also say that he is a very strong supporter of the green paper process that the Government is going through. I think we all need to recognise there is more we can do for the kids of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220334775854ab4a35ae3169d83aa740a2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister fail accidentally to tell the House that the report that he quoted in answer to my first question did not include the tax cuts of October 2010, which gave a huge amount of money, $2.5 billion a year, to the top 10 percent and practically nothing to the bottom 20 percent, who got 3 percent of those cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e811ab1f3cc455ba8b1a3f2be6b9944\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. What is quite clear is that the report covers from 1982 to 2010. It is the most accurate information we have. As we have said on numerous occasions, even if it does not suit the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s case, in fact two-thirds of all the tax cuts delivered by the National Government were delivered to the bottom two codes in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b1bc7f0ed44fd2a209c3e1d8d224bb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Did he include those tax cuts in his answer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d68a656fb71443aa2218b199f9805dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The tax cuts are not the issue. The issue is more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd35b63d15a41a7a6092c13cb5a337f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc6ab95d9ab41a283446d2bebd01de4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they are not the issue. The issue is what the report actually shows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6827259b367470a8b35aefeb50c3526\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Own goal. Own goal. What an idiot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbd485beaed447eaaadaab49dee9541\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The own goal was the thing Trevor Mallard read out about 3 weeks ago, I say to him, because it is not going very well. If we look at the report, we see it quite clearly shows that income distribution in New Zealand is narrowing, not widening as it did under a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250daf61976bb451d80b76bd5a591d191\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Government has made such good progress in helping the most vulnerable in society, what progress has been made in reducing the income inequality between those living in New Zealand and those living in Australia? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b912742557448efa4786baec4781437\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: If we have a look at after-tax wages, we see that the gap between New Zealand and Australia is narrowing. In fact it is narrowing slowly, and we accept that, but we are making progress. There is a lot more work to be done. That is why this country needs another 3 years of a National-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8f4fae7d10447a90db3e87f6f61af9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Hon John Boscawen asked a perfectly fair question and had a right to hear the answer. I just ask members to be a little more reasonable about the interjection level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2de53a3314a454881ae35a102cc967d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Prime Minister just claimed, the gap is narrowing, how does he explain the fact that Australia, which had a higher rate of unemployment than New Zealand at the time that the last Labour Government left office, now has a one-third lower rate of unemployment than New Zealand, and the fact that wages are one-third higher in Australia than in New Zealand, which perhaps explains why in the last 2 months the highest number of New Zealanders ever, in the history of this country, left permanently for Australia? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a804d00e76d4c09a160734db6fd0b86\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Minerals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e057c6d4d654ed8a81cc874615b907d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry, but the Prime Minister garbled something very quickly. I could not hear it, and I was listening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223419339e71ab4472a19892553100a650\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014[Interruption] I am on my feet, I say to the Hon Pete Hodgson. I do not think the House heard the answer. I ask the Prime Minister to repeat his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256fb3032de7f4b4cbbf95b35c04fc1d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Minerals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d03fad44b942ab8a3875409dd4675d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why are wage and salary earners taxed on every dollar that they earn, while high income earners can earn enormous sums of money through capital gains and pay no tax at all on them; and is that one of the reasons why we are becoming a less equal society?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106bd6400e1243e5badea5b6a049f9c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, we are not becoming a less equal society. It may not suit the Leader of the Opposition, but he should wander off and read the Ministry of Social Development report. That is the first flaw. Secondly, it is not true that New Zealanders are not taxed on capital gains that they might incur. In fact, the member should go and ask many, many thousands of New Zealanders who pay a capital gains tax all the time in New Zealand. The truth is that this Government has put more money into making sure that those who might avoid that capital gains tax are found out and pay it. One only needs to look at the changes that took place in Budget 2010 to see the enormous amount of money that was taken out of the property sector as a result of those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf0e96fdb514fd98d5d5d31beabb1d8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is Sam Morgan wrong, then, in saying that when he sold TradeMe they made $700 million that they did not pay a cent in tax on, and was he wrong in saying it is simply not right that he paid no tax on that, when every other New Zealander who is a wage and salary earner pays tax on every dollar they earn? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ce2273a93c4687bde9835bcf47d531\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, but he pays tax on every dollar he earns off that money now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989999b9d3fe4ff18035f1d33bb874fe\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister believes that minerals are the main cause of the disparity in income and equality between New Zealand and Australia, what steps is his Government taking to develop New Zealand\u2019s not inconsiderable mineral wealth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a82867ca67c4d14a835b5e5dc9a258e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has actually been taking quite considerable steps. If one looks at oil and gas exploration, for instance, one sees that we have been not only looking at new areas where we can prospect but also looking at new legislation for the economic zone, looking at where it might be possible to increase New Zealand\u2019s coal activities, looking at where it might be possible to look at lignite activities in New Zealand, and working on greater prospecting for ironsand in New Zealand. What is true is that the Government rejected the option of going into schedule 4 land. The reason we did that was that in the end the opportunities presented relative to the environmental concerns that New Zealanders had did not make that proposition worthwhile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2eca68cf8ff4c8da21212c3811459ee\u0022\u003EEconomies, International\u2014Effect on New Zealand Economy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u002279ba60ca55824f6aad36deee5fa99c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ba60ca55824f6aad36deee5fa99c68\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How is the New Zealand economy placed to deal with global uncertainty created by debt problems in the United States and Europe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022855e19595af842678c8c4008eb3b8146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022855e19595af842678c8c4008eb3b8146\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has taken several steps to ensure that New Zealand can deal with what is likely to be ongoing fall-out from very large debt problems in the US and Europe. Our financial system and our economy are both in better shape to manage these uncertainties than they were a few years ago. Our main focus has been on getting on top of the growth of Government debt by keeping it below 30 percent of GDP. We will be back in surplus by 2014-15. We have pursued policies that have discouraged the taking on of more household debt, and households are responding positively to those. We have also taken important measures to strengthen our financial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d42e25430f64ec7a43deba4ebb82ad9\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the steps the Government has taken to ensure that New Zealand can minimise any impact from global debt problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d866dcf40d864244aaedc0b63ae3cd6a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is becoming increasingly apparent that foreign lenders have reduced appetites for lending to countries that want to run up more debt. Since 2008 the Government has turned back 2008 forecasts of never-ending deficits and soaring debt by setting a path back to surplus in 2014-15. This will keep net Crown debt below 30 percent. We front-loaded the Government\u2019s borrowing programme when market conditions were favourable last year and earlier this year. We have introduced the biggest tax reform in 25 years, which rewards work and savings, discourages excessive borrowing and consumption, and significantly tightens the tax rules on property speculation. We have also overhauled capital market regulations and established the Financial Markets Authority to give confidence to investors and thereby encourage more saving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c75ee5943143440d9ebce81436ccf859\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What extra measures has the Reserve Bank taken to improve the resilience of New Zealand\u2019s financial system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dc139571e48467bbffb2e6221c9dbbf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank has followed up on changes, given the unprecedented steps it had to take around 2008 with the global financial crisis. Non-bank deposit takers\u2014that is, finance companies\u2014are now under Reserve Bank supervision, and the Reserve Bank is applying minimum capital adequacy and credit rating requirements to finance companies, which lost $8.5 billion over the last 4 years. In addition, the Reserve Bank has introduced new core funding requirements for our banks, which require 70 percent of their funding to come from sources such as retail deposits and long-term wholesale funding. This makes them less reliant on volatile short-term international markets. The Reserve Bank has ensured that in another financial crisis it could supply temporary liquidity to sound institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db0ca9d92ec3444d92eed89f39152768\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the uncertainty created by the United States debt crisis has been in part caused by the refusal of the Republican Party to compromise on sensible revenue measures, why should New Zealanders view his National Government as any different when it refused to enter into bipartisan discussion on a capital gains tax, despite authorities such as the International Monetary Fund and the OECD saying that it is an obvious requirement for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc4780b90a1448fbdbd595bc1a37609\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Because, as I think is now becoming increasingly clear internationally, this country has a stable and sensible Government making sound and considered decisions, which means that we are one of the few developed countries now with positive economic prospects and financial stability. That is a considerable achievement in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd40456663a347fa87b20201508a7efe\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: In the current uncertain global environment, why is it important that New Zealand continue with sound economic policies that get on top of the debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257faf6224d1f4c048188c202e632b18d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is pretty important because, as the months tick by and financial markets realise the long-term impact of extremely high debt levels in Europe, the UK, and the US, those lenders have become more nervous about Governments that are running up debt. In fact, some Governments are being forced into slashing public services, putting up taxes, and reducing welfare benefits to the elderly and the vulnerable. This Government has taken a series of balanced and considered measures to keep a lid on spending, to get on top of growing debt, and to build a faster-growing economy. We certainly will not be advocating policies that mean significant new borrowings over and above those that are budgeted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002231870ab738fd4398b73c995e6f6d682c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002273d25b15518e4097b384c5349a7aa438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273d25b15518e4097b384c5349a7aa438\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It relates to question No. 3, which was originally addressed to the Prime Minister. I refer you in particular to the interplay between Speakers\u2019 rulings 145/1, 145/2, and 145/4, at least. This question was originally addressed to the Prime Minister and asked about the Prime Minister\u2019s views and, effectively, whether he was satisfied with some statistics that related to a view he had expressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI am not challenging the ability\u2014and it has been well established under Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/1\u2014for a question to be transferred, but when that happens there is still a requirement under Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/4 that there is ministerial responsibility for the question as it is changed. Under Speaker\u2019s ruling 145/2 there is a right to make textual changes provided they are entirely consequential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis question was addressed to the Prime Minister and asked about his view. It has been transferred to the Minister for Social Development and Employment and now asks about her view. My submission to you is that the second change was not one that was necessary in the context of the transfer. In fact, it was not the area on which an opinion was sought. Frankly, we are not so interested in the view of that Minister on this; we are interested in, and asked the question about, the Prime Minister\u2019s view on his statement and what has happened since that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe problem with the transfer would be, of course, that the Minister for Social Development and Employment does not have ministerial responsibility for the Prime Minister\u2019s views; she has responsibility for her own views. My submission to you is that the transfer of this question has resulted in the so-called consequential textual changes changing the meaning of the question to such an extent. Obviously the Prime Minister did not want to answer it, but my view is that when it is in that form\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffaf247976834f138b919ca0d6871d64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffaf247976834f138b919ca0d6871d64\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member was doing fine until that point. I think I have heard sufficient on the point of order. He cannot make allegations about whether a Minister wanted to answer questions. The point the member raises is a perfectly legitimate point of order, but my ruling on the matter, though, would be this. The Government is perfectly entitled to transfer questions from one Minister to another or from the Prime Minister to another Minister, except were the transfer to be anathema to the obtaining of information. If the Minister or Prime Minister being questioned could be the only person who had particular information and the question was transferred to make it not possible to obtain that information, then I would have real concerns. In fact, I suggest we would start debating and negotiating whether the question could be transferred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut where an opinion is being sought about the Government\u2019s position on things, that is not, in my view, the same as where information\u2014real information about Government policy, or what has happened, or where money is being spent\u2014is being sought and only one Minister can have that knowledge; it would be wrong for that question to be transferred. But where an opinion is being sought I do not see that it is contrary to the bracket of Speakers\u2019 rulings that the member mentions if the question is directed to another Minister, and to make sense of the question it asks whether that Minister is satisfied with the most recent statistics on child health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWere the question not to have been changed textually, it would have left the question meaningless. I do not believe that this particular question is the kind of question that makes it wrong for it to be transferred, or one where the Prime Minister could be the only person who had serious information that was important to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed8e0dcd7f642fb962ac116852e2525\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed8e0dcd7f642fb962ac116852e2525\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am going to respectfully disagree with your views. My view is that the Prime Minister is accountable in this House for opinions he has expressed. He is the only person who can be accountable for opinions he has expressed. I accept that the question is not asking for information; it is effectively asking him whether he is satisfied with his Government\u2019s delivery on his priorities. My view is that no other Minister can answer those questions. It removes accountability in this House if the Prime Minister is allowed to duck those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c52875b32a374abea4191af48d1caa92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c52875b32a374abea4191af48d1caa92\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not tolerate that kind of language being used for a point of order. The member knows that a few years ago questions that sought opinions could not even be asked in this House. In the overall hierarchy of seriousness of questions, the member has been around long enough to know that when opinions are being sought the Speaker cannot even determine whether an answer is addressing the question. And to argue that when opinions are sought questions cannot be transferred is, I believe, not consistent at all with the Standing Orders of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAs I said, if a question is seeking information where only one Minister or the Prime Minister is the only person who has that information, then it would be impeding the processes of this House were such a question to be transferred. But where opinions are sought \u2014forgive me; the member is certainly entitled to disagree with me, I have no problem with that\u2014my ruling on this matter is that that is not the kind of question that cannot be transferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002235316724d8e543a3b66a68b7fd7b8d91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235316724d8e543a3b66a68b7fd7b8d91\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dcafbd34f7145c79f82f4959c6967e0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the member further, as long as he does not make any comment that is derogatory of any other member, under a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d06057f8224ffcafc0cf62bf1701a8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: In light of your decision and the Prime Minister\u2019s decision not to answer the question, we will not proceed with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EQuestion withdrawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c933f4fd45704a8cba7263e12670631f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229767b67e58744ac19ee4ba43446b384a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229767b67e58744ac19ee4ba43446b384a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table an extract from Household incomes in New Zealand: Trends in indicators of inequality and hardship 1982 to 2010. It shows that from 2004 inequality fell because of the work of the Working for Families policy introduced by Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eceb71a458ee4051836b2e57da333883\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The source of this document is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ddc9a5ada44aeaaf91217e431d51cd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It is the Ministry of Social Development, Wellington, July 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918937c37774474baf8683456232fd5e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for this document to be tabled. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252451dd10a834516aa0896f592a6111b\u0022\u003EPay Equity\u2014Gender Gap\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9cac1574b342f38d105032734b86bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9cac1574b342f38d105032734b86bc\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220603a4e79c7b4876afd46e2f4b49bea5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have called Catherine Delahunty. I just ask some of the front-bench members to show some courtesy to a member sitting at the back of the House. It is totally unreasonable to carry on those interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u002210fe6f8eeb2248abb511f10c23b3f295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210fe6f8eeb2248abb511f10c23b3f295\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs: Does she consider she is doing enough to close the gender pay gap given the Herald DigiPoll today that showed 65 percent of women believed they were paid less because of their gender?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022 data-id=\u002271a570416f954fcb9a484e999e8e40e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271a570416f954fcb9a484e999e8e40e4\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. While the gender pay gap is the lowest it has ever been, at 10.6 percent, there is always more that can be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312a72214c474453ab55f899f75a1011\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with 65 percent of women polled by the New Zealand Herald, who consider they get paid less than men because of their gender?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cee832aedfc422dae43b71114be7580\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows because we have had a very detailed meeting about this matter, there are numerous causes of the gender pay gap, and therefore there are a range of solutions. I cannot be responsible for the Herald-DigiPoll\u2019s views as they are reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e4e4d85b2d4286be2d2748db925154\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does she support allowing women to learn how much their equivalent male colleagues earn by requiring employers to report on gender pay in the workplace?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cb9887a8b1464f8a390804db3c8628\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Again as the member well knows because of the detailed discussion I have had with her, there are already mechanisms under the Equal Pay Act 1972 that provide for an employee who believes they are being discriminated against on the grounds of gender or other things to make a complaint to the Department of Labour, whereupon that complaint can be investigated, including requiring the provision of documents by their employer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227576119c133e494bb676551023e715c2\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does she consider that the current system whereby women have to take a case against their employer under the Human Rights Act or the Equal Pay Act 1972 is actually working; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b59dbfb22d643c280715c77ab5af9df\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, we are concerned that, given the underuse of this mechanism, it may not be as well promoted as it could be, and we are working on how we can promote that opportunity to women who may feel they are being discriminated against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e61b14677a449ee9e900578fb72a812\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: How can her suggested solution of career guidance for women deal with the \u201Cunconscious bias\u201D of employers against equal pay and pay equity for women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022677535145ef64d50b50e30e6eb971a2e\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker, can I ask that the question be repeated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f284d07b7831405b85c24cb454850c7a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly the Minister can. Could Catherine Delahunty please repeat her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cfb8a705bae4914bf35aa3d761713c3\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: How can her suggested solution of career guidance for women deal with the \u201Cunconscious bias\u201D\u2014a comment of the Minister\u2014of employers against equal pay and pay equity for women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a600ac7e6125463589e3f8df3259c6a5\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, my comment relates to the point I made earlier, and that is there are a number of causes of the gender pay gap. They include occupational segregation whereby half of all men and women are employed in occupations where 70 percent or more of those employed are of the same gender. There is a requirement for greater flexibility in workplaces. We know that the career guidance that is offered to students often results in girls choosing more lower-paid trade options than boys do, so we are working with the Minister of Education to address that. We are focusing on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db69821a12b482792e2c50dc299b2f5\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry but I asked the Minister about dealing with the unconscious bias of employers, and we have not heard anything relating to that, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a70dc357834cedbc3c2c534a106a74\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I recollect the\u2014[Interruption] A point of order has been called. If I recollect the member\u2019s question, she started the question by asking something about guidance for women, and I think the Minister is answering that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c748f942ea4346b8ba9558db9b6d3d08\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Can I repeat the question, Mr Speaker, because the question was about how her solution would deal with the bias of employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb453d3eda464a8695ade6fbd52cc0da\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot expect the Minister to answer the question in exactly the way she might want her to. I think the Minister has answered that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d9714fe8c4479e8d60c0eb3634f63a\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a question about career guidance dealing with the unconscious bias of the employer. I have not heard an answer on that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22149efcf0a41e9aee2fe43654cbcf1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sorry, because I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dbbea6aaaa84767a9268467222f4013\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps this is the issue. Why is the Government putting the burden on individual women to search for pay information and take action against their employers to solve the system-wide discrimination against women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6497cdded424b58bc74aaa50e12c10e\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that the member has any evidence for system-wide discrimination. What we have in New Zealand is three pieces of legislation that together provide the opportunity for men and women alike who feel they are subject to some kind of discrimination to be able, as has been traditional in this constitutional democracy, to pursue their rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261e8f72e85324b7fbdb2d46061fbfb5f\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: What decision has the Minister made on my request that the Government pick up the Pay Equality Bill drafted by the Human Rights Commission, which would provide real mechanisms to address pay inequality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225700540d37334d61b40dd81d21edf119\u0022\u003EHon HEKIA PARATA\u003C/span\u003E: I am continuing to read the report provided by the human rights commissioner. My officials are studying what the proposal is. The proposal is distinctly different conceptually from the current approach that New Zealand has used for discrimination. It takes some time to consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229557efb4b5364ab5918471c5ceaa1949\u0022\u003ECapital Gains Tax\u2014Minister\u2019s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccdb2093157b45efa361f7671ef90862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccdb2093157b45efa361f7671ef90862\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Ctheoretically, the right thing to do would be to have a comprehensive capital gains tax\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00220a4a1b50eaa74be38a28b9ef33fb027d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a4a1b50eaa74be38a28b9ef33fb027d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by the statement that tax theorists do support a comprehensive capital gains tax\u2014that is, on all capital gains, including the family home. However, the Government certainly does not support a complicated new tax that is part of a big-spending and increasing-debt package, which is advocated by that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d4befd148d4b38807e6ce000d6b877\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the overwhelming importance of tax theorists in the 31 of 34 OECD countries that in fact have a capital gains tax, and who, of course, reside in the OECD, the IMF, the New Zealand Treasury, and the New Zealand Reserve Bank, which have all recommended that one be adopted here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c605a5c5efd42589c263134cd6ff806\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The experts the member quotes all favour a comprehensive capital gains tax. I note the member does not, because his would reduce the capital gains tax on property traders and provide a number of exemptions, which will mean that not much revenue will be raised. The total effect of the package he has produced is that it would require borrowing of about $18 billion extra over the next 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e11509c99b04031ad575a675f4ebfbb\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If his criticism of Labour\u2019s capital gains tax policy is that it is not comprehensive enough, is he aware that of the 31 of the 34 OECD countries that have capital gains taxes, only Japan includes the family home; therefore, can he confirm that he would support a capital gains tax that did include the family home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e38f9afaee5422cb8aa38e94f6d8190\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that we do not support a big-tax, big-spending package that would leave the country with a large legacy of extra debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216735d936d4c4903a31c15412f813761\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is alleging that Labour\u2019s package is big-spending, is he aware that it reduces net Crown debt to zero before the plans outlined in his own 2011 Budget; if so, does he agree with himself that the tax system relies too heavily on those taxes most harmful to growth, such as corporate and personal income taxes, and that sectors with low effective tax rates, notably property, have expanded at the expense of the rest of the economy; if so, will he now endorse Labour\u2019s policy that reduces income tax by $1,000 for every household and replaces it with a capital gains tax that closes the largest tax loophole?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8293900bbf44cb97852c9c31717ccf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, the member should have supported the Government\u2019s Budget and tax package last year, which this year is taking $1 billion of extra tax out of the property sector. But our main objection to the member\u2019s package is it represents big tax, big spending, and big debt, when this economy needs exactly the opposite if it is to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225168e2d9d07343779b928cab69eace57\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Which is better for the economy: his Government\u2019s plan to sell profitable, publicly owned assets that bring in a bit of cash upfront but sees billions of dollars of dividends flow offshore forever, or Labour\u2019s fair tax plan that gives every Kiwi a tax cut on the first $5,000 that they earn, closes the capital income tax loophole, and keeps Kiwi assets and dividends in Kiwi hands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfde5e82ae464647a53c98cc79f8bfc9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Our plan is much better because it incentivises work, exporting, savings, and investment, and it disincentivises excesses, borrowing, and consumption. His plan is worse because it means a big new tax, big Government spending, and a lot more debt for New Zealanders, just at the time when debt is toxic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223580f12cca4b4358b1920de79f3b30bb\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen about how a capital gains tax might apply to KiwiSaver and other retirement savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c72e83854aa49f790b8a399c211b99f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Among the many dodgy assumptions and rubbery numbers in a package announced recently, I have seen a report from the New Zealand Shareholders Association that was very concerned at the impact of the capital gains tax proposed on 1.6 million KiwiSaver accounts. The association asked whether the proposed tax would apply to KiwiSaver. Labour\u2019s finance spokesperson said that the 15 percent capital gains tax would apply to those savings. The Shareholders Association noted that the compounding effect of this new tax on KiwiSaver savings would be very negative for the balances in New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3286d04774e4104af40e84c9dc4d82b\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: If big spending, big tax, and big debt are harmful to the economy, why is his Government running a deficit this year of $16.8 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222999a9915a0f47958e496fbefdc33a07\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. The main reason the deficit is so big is that we have allocated in the last financial year most of the Government cost of dealing with the Christchurch earthquake. But we share the member\u2019s concern about the size of that deficit, and that is why in the last Budget we put in a plan that will get us back to surplus by 2014-15, which I think will make us one of, I think, only three developed countries in the world that will have that degree of financial security. And it is why we will argue vigorously this year against other plans to significantly increase New Zealand\u2019s debt at a time when that is a dangerous thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022321f8bad9d634112982f3a9f9b8a5d69\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of whether KiwiSaver accounts currently pay tax on their profits from share trading; if he is not aware of the answer to that, why did he answer the question from Amy Adams in the way that he did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224313852ce722481e8e3bd7c6ad1a6dbf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is not my package. The more important question is whether the Opposition spokespeople\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db1ad6614c7409dbbea797bba6b230e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a484502f8849e58546ed0da48eebb8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014are aware\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ec8cf133354b28b801b4f01afbf18e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2bc8bf2b1344ff4a142843a3c65b1df\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of the impact of their own policies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fef6c7080ff452e81388790e62ef3d9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is wrong with the Minister\u2019s ears? I was calling for order for quite some time before the Minister responded. Ministers know that when they start commenting on other parties\u2019 policies they are at risk. The questions to the Minister invited that earlier on. The question of his own colleague went on to attack the Opposition\u2019s policies, which was starting to tread on thin ice. But the question from the Hon David Parker asked whether, in the Minister\u2019s answer to a previous question, he had considered whether what I presume he was claiming to be capital gains in profits from KiwiSaver were taxed. I believe it was a serious question that deserved to be treated seriously, but, instead, there was an attack on the questioner. I invite the Hon David Parker to repeat his question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6d2537db66b4154bed0e6a6d48ba8b1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of whether KiwiSaver accounts already pay tax on their profits from trading in shares; if he is not aware of whether that is true, why did he answer the question from Amy Adams in the way that he did? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224733261c07a24d61a4dc9841d693aa3c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of the current rules, and I am also aware that a recent package was proposed that would extend the application of a capital gains tax to all capital gains in KiwiSaver accounts, which will make 1.6 million KiwiSavers worse off under Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fbf6d0b885a42c9b5c2b271c19c105d\u0022\u003ELeaky Homes, Financial Assistance Package\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3aa1dcdc2948b9a32f4700db8eef3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3aa1dcdc2948b9a32f4700db8eef3f\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What reports has he received on the interest in the Government\u2019s Financial Assistance Package from owners of leaky homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00221771947eb0f9436290299215a5a314e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221771947eb0f9436290299215a5a314e4\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Since the financial assistance package became law just last Friday, the Department of Building and Housing has recorded a high level of inquiries from owners of leaky homes who are interested in taking up the package. Not only have we had a considerable number of inquiries from people who already have existing claims, but also we received 43 calls on Friday from brand new claimants. The department\u2019s leaky home package website, www.leakyhomes.govt.nz, has so far had a total of 1,210 hits, resulting in the download of 892 financial assistance information packs. Just yesterday the website received 422 hits, and 345 financial assistance packs were downloaded. This is a positive sign that the Government\u2019s package is being viewed by the public in a very positive way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c23a400d04064640b0426da9506e414d\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will the financial assistance package provide to the owners of leaky homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd6e029ad9a488cb35e0fe6e330325c\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: First, the package will suit both apartment owners and homeowners who want to avoid lengthy and costly legal battles in the courts and want to move on with their lives. Second, it will help owners of leaky homes get their homes fixed a lot faster. The financial assistance package is but one more option for owners of leaky homes. It will be in addition to the current disputes process. Homeowners who choose to take the financial assistance package will still have the right to pursue other liable parties such as builders, developers, and the manufacturers of defective products. This package sees a contribution of 25 percent from the Government and 25 percent from the local authority, with the remaining 50 percent being funded by the homeowner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ae46585962c4c2f87384cd468483917\u0022\u003ECapital Gains Tax\u2014Gareth Morgan\u2019s Views\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002207733dfa0bd4416cbba968e1601af1a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207733dfa0bd4416cbba968e1601af1a5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with economist Gareth Morgan that the lack of a capital gains tax is \u201Cthe biggest tax rort in the country and one that has cost us all dearly in terms of efficient allocation of capital, economic growth and employment\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002293d09520e7b74da1b0acbac41b3261cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293d09520e7b74da1b0acbac41b3261cf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I think if Mr Mallard had seen what Dr Morgan has said on this, he would have prevented this question too from being asked. In respect of capital gains, Dr Morgan has said: \u201CThere should be no exemptions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f66b5f2417436bafb0d1cf24528207\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I reflected on the beginning of that answer. It would, of course, be a breach of privilege for a member to prevent another member asking a question, and members are not allowed to make that allegation in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2ba1c65dde44e38d1d3ea742713297\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a perfectly reasonable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229264b8c948b3425e985bea6e874b30e0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8df9fc66834b4c89a68a8fa8c9fd3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Hon Bill English on the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262cf44a1741142c480b64e51256e393a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I was simply observing what occurred in the House. I am not trying to say whether it was procedurally correct, but quite clearly that member overruled the asking of a question. That may be against the Standing Orders; we did not draw attention to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9af29feb0343acb538b550258b05f0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think we need to pursue this further. I think when answering questions it is not helpful to make that kind of comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765b49e149c64a24854018de7d26241c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Morgan has said: \u201CThere should be no exemptions, certainly not on the family home which is the biggest tax shelter\u201D of all. I understand that his comment after the recent package was announced was that if we exempt the family home from our tax, we are sort of knocking ourselves over the head before we start running, which I think was a very good description of Labour\u2019s whole package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022973a56e5f6c84e82abc555c4415943bc\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance agree with Westpac Chief Economist Dominick Stephens that \u201CNew Zealanders are incentivised to borrow money to buy land rather than invest in productive assets. If we introduced a capital gains tax, that incentive would be diminished, and there would be a greater incentive for people to save via bank deposits or productive business ownership.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb41c1b858d42b78fbd77da53d5e47f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That economist should get himself up to date with the measures the Government took in last year\u2019s Budget, which mean that this year we will take about $1 billion extra tax\u2014or a bit under, actually; about $850 million extra tax\u2014from the property sector, which is a much larger amount of tax revenue than that member\u2019s package would take out of that sector for probably about 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299463d4f288c477d9a6c8bd879513d41\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister\u2019s Budget forecast, under current economic and tax settings, show an increasing current account deficit, rising to around 6 percent of GDP, funded by more overseas debt each and every year to the end of his projections, and does that not suggest to him that significant structural changes like a capital gains tax are needed to cure New Zealand\u2019s structural problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212e0f04117b4e2b9d2b822229d75a81\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is applying itself to New Zealand\u2019s structural problems. I can tell that member that both we and the public believe that packages that include significant increases in taxes, increases in Government spending, and increases in Government debt will make those problems worse, not better. In fact, I warn that member that a predecessor of his\u2014Dr Cullen\u2014campaigned on the current account deficit, and managed to double it in the time he was Minister of Finance under the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220185648838b47698e8a0f0e431d1c07\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government embarrassed when Pattrick Smellie reported that \u201CFinance Minister and Facebook page-owner Bill English didn\u2019t get the presumably intended answer when he asked visitors to the page whether they supported the Labour Party\u2019s proposal for a capital gains tax. When BusinessDesk last looked, at 4.15 p.m., 314 people had voted 88% in favour of a capital gains tax.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222914af984e884966a6de99353a53fc2c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I was not aware that the Labour Party research unit was as big as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227deb1cbce25d47f3a28d473c35a28e77\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa9005860064d11a695d577b51efb8d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded34be7226d43c4a6334076fb611e56\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government embarrassed to read the Herald on Sunday state: \u201CApart from borrowing money and talking up a questionable programme of asset sales, National is showing no signs of a plan to get us out of the mess we\u2019re in.\u201D; if he is not embarrassed, is he at least very concerned that he might be on the wrong side of this issue, given that so many senior economists and commentators believe that New Zealand\u2019s structural problems need a structural cure that the Government has not delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229289a639a0ed47a68e89f831981f946e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I was embarrassed for the Labour Party to see people whom it would expect to vote for it quoted in the media in the last week supporting the Government\u2019s plan. In fact, most New Zealanders understand what needs to happen in this economy, and they have confidence in the John Key - led National Government to find our way through the recession in a considered way and to build a platform for strong economic growth over the next 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f5a2c06988d4c67ae3864cc2a77f66a\u0022\u003EDrugs, Control\u2014Classification Notices\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00227dfef729e82c4e02b5af3648ac10ff09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dfef729e82c4e02b5af3648ac10ff09\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What measures has the Government taken to control new psychoactive substances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00225ff336d8ae4447788e19fbd0d0528bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ff336d8ae4447788e19fbd0d0528bca\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has decided to amend the Misuse of Drugs Act to enable the issue of temporary class drug notices for currently unregulated substances of concern. This new mechanism will place a temporary ban on such substances for up to 12 months while their risk is assessed, and will enable us to deal with synthetic cannabinoids like Kronic. I expect that once this amendment is passed, temporary class drug notices for these substances will be gazetted, and the substances will be off the shelves a week later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c40b956728d43b98c18984b7dddcc92\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the industry claims that it will devise new products to get around the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c928536d8469456487101ba57088a3e6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: We will certainly be monitoring the industry\u2019s activities very closely, but I say to the industry that the moment it attempts to bring a new product on to the market, we will invoke the powers of this legislation, gazette the product, and have it off the shelves within 7 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe29a2384e8e40178d4dfb792cfb177c\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still claim that taking action on drugs such as P and Kronic is a priority for his Government, given that the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill has been buried on the Order Paper since November last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea912478651475cbaef699f65a04c24\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. In fact, we have been making sure that the measures the bill contains, when put in place, will work effectively. If the member looks at what has happened overseas he will see a number of jurisdictions that have imposed short-term bans that have not worked. We have done the job comprehensively and properly. These restrictions will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fc4c630bef847e5acd926cd20ad4a0a\u0022\u003EFreshwater Management, National Policy Statement\u2014Cawthron Institute Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6bb135d678649909c1046097876a3b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6bb135d678649909c1046097876a3b7\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does he agree with the Cawthron Institute that despite his Government\u2019s National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, \u201Cthe condition of New Zealand\u2019s lakes, rivers and wetlands is likely to continue to decline for several more years and possibly much longer\u201D\u2019 if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022afe6593d3d264b27866cd4451f25b552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afe6593d3d264b27866cd4451f25b552\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP (Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: No. The report makes the incorrect assumption that regional councils will be too slow in acting on the new national policy statement to improve water quality. The experience last month since the national policy statement took effect is that regional councils are taking the requirement to step up their management of fresh water very seriously. There has previously been no national direction for regional councils to improve water quality. Although some have criticised the policy as being too tough and others as being too soft, all of them have welcomed at least some clear direction from the Government on water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e3a69b086246dbad64b97c46c7ee00\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Cawthron Institute wrong when it says his Government\u2019s own irrigation subsidies\u2014the possibly $400 million of irrigation subsidies the Government has talked about\u2014are likely to result in further intensification of land use and further decline in our lakes, rivers, and wetlands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f1d62fe6814e82b6998671a14c68f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The Cawthron Institute report is one of opinion; it is not actually a scientific survey. In fact, no irrigation schemes will be eligible for Government funding unless environmental planning conditions are met, which include, in fact, the national policy statement, as well. The Government has, in fact, increased its spending on waterways by 500 percent over the last 3 years. For instance, in the 5-year period commencing in 2009, $94 million will be spent, compared with $16 million in the previous 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286036280b90c4e0bbaaef8c92e80423c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is a paradox that on the one hand his Government is increasing spending dramatically to clean up the mess created by earlier intensive agriculture projects, and on the other hand it plans to subsidise hundreds of thousands of hectares of new intensive irrigation projects that will increase water pollution? On the one hand the Government is spending money to clean it up, and on the other hand it is spending money to create it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316ce2609458444096cd6c16e8659c9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member may not have heard the previous answer. No new irrigation schemes will be eligible for a Government subsidy unless they have a plan to deal with the potential increased runoff. That is one of the conditions of such a subsidy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014fdd84591b4cd09a6e750d5256ae37\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister therefore provide a guarantee that not a single dollar will be paid in irrigation subsidies without a guarantee that there will be no negative downstream environmental effects on water quality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b3c9f02daf349d18920dcf2339e1a63\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, in any such application all the factors of the risks will be properly assessed on a scientific basis\u2014unlike this particular report, which is in essence a matter of opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35134943e9c4525b4bca83850d6de0f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Cawthron Institute report, Implications of the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management, which was released in June 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a09c23b117d45e8bc6c0bf76f9266bd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7170a7794e543608d223ae420bdb92e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a statement by Professor David Hamilton, debunking the Yale report on water quality, which has repeatedly been used by the Minister from this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a93b6a4222774fa5a36b87b0ca80d2de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a personal letter, or is it a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f947e4ec945d4f27acf97a50352f98dd\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: It is a media statement by Professor David Hamilton. It is not otherwise publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e63367b0a0a40a4ac20cc7bc7a96b0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It has not been published in the New Zealand media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51dbedb47e643e1a4a8df3b47b84759\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: No. That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2101caa51ea49cd8cf380c5916d42e1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252824940d11d4ca1b6c7aa40c6b1108b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table four documents, so I will do them as one block. These are from water scientists in New Zealand, all of which raise concerns about the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management. They are published by the Science Media Centre. They are from Professor David Hamilton, Dr Mike Joy, Professor Jenny Webster-Brown, and Angus McIntosh, a professor at the University of Canterbury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203972a6722ef4e62af0707b3186e26a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286286dcf8b484f88995e65a77e7f49aa\u0022\u003EBrendon Burns\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that whereas the Land and Water Forum he established to consider the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management made just four modest changes to the board of inquiry\u2019s version, he allowed Cabinet to insert 19 more changes, none of them protecting the environment for which he holds the ministerial warrant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bcfe8f7a7dc441a97f51ebc5ed62dc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet took a balanced approach to this. It balanced, obviously, the need to improve water quality with the need to improve growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b45a9fe4a8c41bdba2a5eee9b7ae50f\u0022\u003EChildren, Protection\u2014Green Paper for Vulnerable Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022397ba88c15af4f569093061598f38a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022397ba88c15af4f569093061598f38a2d\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the Government doing to ensure New Zealand better cares for and protects our most vulnerable children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00221f5ca5415a134f7585fef6cfcceec3fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f5ca5415a134f7585fef6cfcceec3fc\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We have released a green paper on vulnerable children. Too many of our children are being hurt, abused, and neglected, but I believe we can change this. Some of the complex issues the paper raises include whether vulnerable children should be prioritised for services over others, how the Government can encourage communities to take more responsibility for the well-being of their children, and how much monitoring of vulnerable children there should be amongst Government and non-governmental organisations. Submissions on the green paper are now open, and I certainly encourage people to get involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649108627bfc4dd1907299d191153f01\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: What response has she received on the release of the Green Paper for Vulnerable Children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf347bea6e5346d3bba33af1b20b0333\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a lot of response to the Green Paper for Vulnerable Children, and it has come in a number of ways and from a number of sources, including via Facebook and the green paper\u2019s website. I have also seen reports welcoming the green paper from places like Plunket, the New Zealand Medical Association, Save the Children, Barnardos, the Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse Trust, the New Zealand Educational Institute, the National Council of Women, Te K\u0101hui Mana Ririki, and the Children\u2019s Commissioner. It seems that the paper has certainly been well received, and I look forward to receiving submissions on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061a12e033734c58ae4f304ec2a71688\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her comment that \u201CToo many children are being hurt, abused, neglected, and badly let down but we can change this and now is the time to act.\u201D, what is her definition of \u201Cnow\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d8a7732d62487d9aa353d761124ed6\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It would be fair to say that in the last 2\u00BD years I have been working continuously on changes both within Child, Youth and Family and across government about what we can do for our vulnerable children\u2014for example, the Never, Ever Shake a Baby campaign and having Child, Youth and Family social workers in hospitals. We have put more into teen parents than any other Government has previously in terms of supported housing. We have also done more to support teen fathers, and we have introduced Home for Life, which has made a big difference in the protection of, and permanency for, those children. There was $44 million more in the last Budget for kids in care to make sure that we get the right sorts of services from those who care for them. So a lot has been done, but there is a lot more to do, as I am sure the member would agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203923905fb1c4828b8e8030e3f59d2c8\u0022\u003EWomen\u2019s Refuges\u2014Funding Cuts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00223d7f38fbcf62425cbc1a9e9a1b0586cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d7f38fbcf62425cbc1a9e9a1b0586cd\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment: Is she concerned about the warning of Heather Henare that waiting lists for places in Women\u2019s Refuges may have to be contemplated as a result of cuts in Government funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022892df46921b1409db45e73a9a03d9093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022892df46921b1409db45e73a9a03d9093\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E No. I would be concerned if that statement was true, but the fact is that since the 2007-08 financial year the Government has increased core funding to the National Collective of Independent Women\u2019s Refuges by 25 percent. In addition, overall funding to refuges both part of, and separate to, the collective has increased by 43 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223971a793ef6b4a4d89f0b3a27380df74\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she cut $382,000 of funding to the National Collective of Independent Women\u2019s Refuges, which was used to fund the baseline activities of most of the women\u2019s refuges around New Zealand, including providing short-term, safe shelter to women and children escaping violent relationships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cbfbbcc9cac4370b32b3d7a214b9820\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: The $382,000 was, in fact, money that was given to the refuges for educational purposes, not for the housing of women in those situations. The refuges have had considerably increased funding. The issue the member has raised is that they have had funding cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec7e00ae62745dd96397bae798312c9\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: How much funding did members of the National Collective of Independent Women\u2019s Refuges receive from the newly established Family-centred Services Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1858a83616b49f193b2f1e048a10b0a\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: There were 24 applications from members of the collective, of which 20 were successful. I consider that a very good strike rate. Those 20 refuges received something like $1.683 million, and I am happy to inform the House that this is an increase in funding of 94 percent for affiliated refuges. The other two refuges that received money, which are not affiliated, received\u2014[Interruption] Do members opposite want to hear the answer or do they want to rabbit on? The other two refuges received $1.1 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1b7d923f644721b9add28d791d839a\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: How would the Minister describe the provision of short-term, safe shelter to women and children escaping violent relationships: as a front-line service or a back-office function?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227064a8a1bcff418b88d4980d09afb6f7\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have made it very clear that a 94 percent increase in money to the refuges hardly equates to preventing women from getting safety when they need it. I also want to point out that there has been a huge investment in front-line services to other family violence service providers right throughout the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022443c469e6a604b2f85d51c74cb7ba1e8\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fcbf900dc084d9daf23556ea7927796\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order has been called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022942116e2a2184cdc9b47b960366863e7\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: I asked a clear question, which was how would she describe the provision of short-term, safe shelter to women and children escaping violent relationships and whether she would describe that as a front-line service or a back-office function. I do not think she answered that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec4e1801c0342ecaf6f0ce65eeb59c2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My interpretation of the Minister\u2019s answer was that she confirmed that it was a front-line service, but if the Minister wishes to clarify that then I would be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d789f17532f44fb2bbd0c9aec6975c23\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is a front-line service. They get 94 percent extra money to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb31648e39924be487e74b80484fa8b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister. [Interruption] I want to hear Carol Beaumont\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c50188baa5348689e9de97e7e5219b2\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: What analysis was or will be undertaken of the impact of cutting funding that pays for short-term, safe shelter for women and children escaping violent relationships at a time when family violence continues to rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1b3d0ff2074912aab548706bd5a355\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I have answered that question continually this afternoon. There has been no cut to Women\u2019s Refuge funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cedceb238181412ea878e2b300b53179\u0022\u003EHamilton\u2014Services for Cancer Patients\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002276499867866c4698a6ba6bcaa5be06b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276499867866c4698a6ba6bcaa5be06b7\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What reports has he received regarding improved services for cancer patients in Hamilton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00222ff428c0e2e647138f287adfd3aecae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ff428c0e2e647138f287adfd3aecae8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Health: I am advised that more cancer patients receiving treatment at Waikato Hospital will now be able to stay free of charge in Hamilton during their care. Patients who live more than 30 kilometres away from the city can now stay during the week at the new Lions Lodge, which is run by the Waikato Bay of Plenty division of the Cancer Society. Until now, they have had to live more than 100 kilometres away, and patients who live closer to Hamilton can stay there if there are vacancies, along with a family support member. In a New Zealand first, the Waikato District Health Board, the Bay of Plenty District Health Board, and the Lakes District Health Board are together putting more than $900,000 into the lodge, which will result in improved access and make a big difference to around 50 extra families a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd0db847bac42ffbf4e37f5469c2c36\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What other cancer services have been improved for patients in Hamilton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281fa40fc96a04bab927dd047091810c9\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: A new centre providing PET and CT scans in Hamilton means that patients from New Plymouth through to the Waikato will no longer have to travel to Wellington or even Australia for these important tests. These scans are a valuable tool in diagnosing and monitoring the progression of cancer and allow clinicians to plan and adjust to a patient\u2019s treatment accordingly, at earlier stages of the disease. The Government is providing an extra million dollars every year for district health boards to purchase more PET scans, and this is supporting at least 550 additional patients each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3955b97f48245c4badf3515bc15d632\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228eb0f6d56eb4596ae59b2027084dffe\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f300ea67e3049fcb70f0a4c6df39f54\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act and consequential amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022b48b535756bb42fc8e9a987bf763c7f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b48b535756bb42fc8e9a987bf763c7f7\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on Part 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. I say at the outset that Labour will be supporting Part 1, and will also be supporting the amendments in the name of Minister Peter Dunne, the Minister in the chair, as set out on his Supplementary Order Paper. Labour will also seek support for an amendment in my name, which is set out on a separate Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EFirstly, I will address the amendments in the Minister\u2019s name, which of course have received plenty of attention in the media over the last few weeks. This is, I suppose, the Government\u2019s response to the issue of synthetic cannabis products\u2014products that go by the name of Kronic, Dream, Spice, and that sort of thing. The issue that has been plaguing Parliament for some time is that these products can come on to the market, be perfectly legal, and escape the purview of the Misuse of Drugs Act as it is currently written. They also escape the purview of all sorts of other Acts; they do not come under the same regulations as would a food and they do not come under the Medicines Act. They have been sneaking in through a loophole formed because no legislation has been able to deal with such new substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhat the Minister is proposing we see as only a stopgap, and I think the Minister would see it in the same way, as well. It is a stopgap measure in order to give Parliament more time to consider a more permanent solution to the issue of new substances coming on to the market. The Minister\u2019s amendments will give the Government the opportunity to create a temporary class drug notice, which means that we will be able to temporarily classify a new substance and, by doing so, ensure that it is not sold in dairies, liquor stores, or the places where we have seen it being sold and marketed, clearly visible to young people and to anybody who goes into places where we would go to buy what we would think of as normal household items or goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ESo we support the measure to create what is essentially a 12-month ban, in order to give the Government and the Minister the opportunity to consider the harm that may be caused by these new substances. It is fair, though, to note that, as some people have been saying in the media this morning, this legislation does not allow the Government to block new substances from arriving and coming on to the market. It simply gives us an ability to respond in a much faster way, so that we can get substances off the shelf quickly if we believe they are harmful to users. That is not ideal, and it is fair to say, I think, that the process around that is not ideal. The amendments have been tacked on to a bill that was already proceeding through Parliament. These amendments have been proposed well after the select committee process, so we have not had an opportunity to consider them properly through the normal parliamentary processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EHowever, I do not think that such niceties will be given much truck by the public, who want to see action\u2014and have wanted to see action for some time, it is fair to say. Indeed, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill was reported back to the House by the Health Committee in November last year, and it has sat on the Order Paper for all the months since then, when action really could have been taken by the Government. This issue could have been progressed. The question of Kronic has been around for some time. I think that most electorate MPs will have heard from their constituents about this issue, and this is the appropriate legislation to deal with the issue, rather than some others, such as the Smoke-free Environments Act, another area in which the issue had been considered somewhat, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe legislation has been a long time coming, but I accept what the Minister has been saying about the need to get it right. In the end, though, it is not the solution to new psychoactive substances. The public is really looking for a solution that ensures that these substances can be properly tested before they come to market, rather than our having what is still the case\u2014the need to respond once we realise they may be causing some harm. We want to be sure that the harm they cause is insignificant enough that they can come to the market safely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI think this legislation also gives us an opportunity, given that we are buying a little time to get this matter right, to consider the other 44 recommendations in the Law Commission\u2019s review of the Misuse of Drugs Act. We have picked on one, and we have focused very closely on that one, but a number of suggestions and recommendations in that review could very well be taken up by Parliament. In my view, what we actually need is new legislation to replace the Misuse of Drugs Act. That Act came into force in the mid-1970s, and it was a response to the drug environment of the mid-1970s. It was a response to what at the time was a whole raft of relatively new substances. Some were naturally occurring; some were created synthetically. But things have moved on in the 30-odd years since then. Indeed, new substances are being developed all the time, but our response to drug use and drug abuse has changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe concept of harm minimisation is much more to the fore these days. I believe that, given the opportunity we have through the amendments the Minister has put forward in relation to Part 1 to take the time to consider ways in which we can deal with new substances, we should also take the time to consider how we should really tackle drug abuse, and the supply and use of drugs in New Zealand in the 21st century, with a much more modern, more evidence-based approach. I think of things like the way we classify different substances, the role of the health system, and the role of the justice system. All those matters need to be taken into consideration in creating the legislation we need to replace the Misuse of Drugs Act. Having said that, I say that we do need an interim measure, and this is the interim measure to tackle that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI would like to hear more from the Minister about how he proposes to use those temporary class notices, how quickly they can be brought into action, and how he intends to respond to the claim from the industry that it will be able to constantly bring in new substances. The idea that the industry might have one substance that would be on the shelves for a week before being pulled and replaced by a new substance is a concern. I would like to see that teased out a little bit more by the Minister and hear his explanation of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI would also like to hear exactly how the different temporary classes will be defined, and how a substance will be defined as being temporarily a class A, class B, or class C drug, a precursor substance, or a restricted substance. Those will have quite an impact on the way in which this legislation will actually work in practice. I also say that for people who have a small amount in their possession, it is excellent that that amount will not be illegal. In fact, I would like to hear a little bit more about how the presumption of possession to supply might assist in dealing with the stockpiling issue that we could see as people try to evade this legislation and these amendments before they come into force. So there are a few questions there for the Minister, and I would be very keen to hear his thoughts on them. I look forward to coming back to this in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002247b99e805daf4c388c49feea37bca208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247b99e805daf4c388c49feea37bca208\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to respond to the points the member Iain Lees-Galloway has raised. He is absolutely right; these amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill are a temporary measure, because the 45 recommendations from the Law Commission require a lot of work to be done on them. There is not just one recommendation in isolation; a whole comprehensive package needs to be assessed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member will appreciate that the commission\u2019s recommendations are essentially at a very high level. They are not in a form that could be picked up and simply implemented, as some have argued. Quite a lot of ongoing work on the recommendations is occurring at the present time. The Government\u2019s intention is that that work will be completed next year, and I imagine that what will emerge will be a new bill\u2014a replacement for the current Misuse of Drugs Act\u2014that will incorporate all of those changes. That is for another day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn terms of the immediate problem we face with synthetic cannabinoids and other new psychoactive substances, we needed to act in an important and immediate interim way. I make the point that this is not just about synthetic cannabinoids. Claims I have heard from the industry that it can now divert its activities into other areas will be caught by these amendments, because any new psychoactive substance that causes the Minister of Health concern can be the subject of one of these new temporary class drug notices. To a large extent, that gives some comfort when manufacturers claim that they will simply bring in new and different substances. They can be dealt with under this mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member raised a question about timing. My assumption is as follows: this legislation will pass through all its remaining stages in Parliament this week. It will receive the Royal assent at His Excellency\u2019s convenience. I imagine that will be first thing next week. Immediately that happens I will issue a Gazette notice giving the range of products that is on the market at the moment\u2014some 43 in all\u20147 days to be off the shelves. The timing is very quick, and we are already preparing the Gazette notice as I speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs new products arise and as they are detected by a combination of the police, the New Zealand Customs Service, and the Ministry of Health, or individually, provided the products meet the test I referred to earlier they will immediately be gazetted in exactly the same way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe issue of concern to New Zealanders about the apparent proliferation of these synthetic cannabinoids and other psychoactive substances is being addressed through this mechanism. In the longer term, something along the lines of the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations that nothing gets to even base one before it is proven to be safe is the correct course to follow. But a whole lot of issues around the definition of \u201Csafety\u201D, and the process by which it is determined, have yet to be resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway raised a question about personal possession. I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to this particular aspect because it is very important, and again gives the lie to some of the claims being made by the industry that there will be a bonanza fire sale and that people will be able to stock up to their heart\u2019s content to get around the forthcoming bans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Cpersonal possession\u201D for the presumption of supply has been changed. At the moment in the Misuse of Drugs Act we talk about 56 grams of the item concerned. These synthetic cannabinoids are sprayed over the Kronic products, so 56 grams actually covers a fair range of product. We have changed that, and in this instance it will be 56 grams of complete product. It will not be just the synthetic cannabinoid; it will be the Kronic. Kronic is sold, as I understand it, in 1.5 gram packets. By my calculation, about 37 packets will be the maximum a person will be allowed before they are presumed to be supplying or potentially capable of supplying. So that is a very tight restriction. I hasten to say to the industry that there will not be a very big bonanza, at all, over the next week or so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese measures have arisen in response to understandable public concern, and, as I said in response to a question in the House earlier today, I have been determined, right the way through, to make sure we put in place a viable interim mechanism pending the development of the long-term solution. I have had thrown at me\u2014not by the member opposite but by various other commentators and critics\u2014questions of why I do not do what they did in Australia and other countries and just ban these things outright. The reality has been that without the sort of mechanism we have put in place now, the industry does exactly what the member Iain Lees-Galloway is concerned about: it thinks it can reformulate the banned product as something else, which is back on the shelves the following week, and we start all over again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have a comprehensive suite of measures before the Committee in Supplementary Order Paper 258, and I am grateful for the support of that member\u2019s party. I think it is very important that Parliament sends a strong signal on this issue. As a consequence, the capacity that we have now to put in place something that will be comprehensive for that 12-month period is strong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI make one other point before I conclude. The 12-month period is not absolute. It is 12 months in respect of every product that is gazetted. Although I expect that the Government will have resolved its work on the Misuse of Drugs Act by around the middle of next year, there may well be products being gazetted in February or March that will have that 12-month cycle attached to them. Within that time they have to be assessed and tested, and some conclusion made as to their particular classification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI appreciate the member\u2019s support. I do not want to prolong the debate unnecessarily, but I hope I have answered his questions in the way he was seeking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c56a3687cf9c4891b13664653259dc7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c56a3687cf9c4891b13664653259dc7b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to speak on this important amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act. The Hon Peter Dunne certainly deserves congratulations on bringing in his Supplementary Order Paper that will effectively ban something like 43 synthetic cannabinoids that are known on the New Zealand market at present. I have no doubt that the mums and dads of New Zealand will breathe a significant sigh of relief when they hear of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no question that the availability of these synthetic cannabinoids has become more and more apparent as the year has gone on, and particularly in the last few months. I have been absolutely surprised at what I would view as the irresponsibility of many retailers in the way they sell these products flagrantly in areas where there are a lot of children present, close to schools, etc. In my view, the manufacturers of these synthetic cannabinoids are, on the whole, very cunning and ruthless and will stop at nothing to make money out of this range of products, let alone stopping at nothing to entrap young New Zealanders into becoming dependent on them. So this interim measure is, indeed, an extremely important one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI well remember Matt Bowden, whom we have seen on TV recently, appearing before the Health Committee some years ago and saying how he felt that good manufacturing practice was so important to him, yet we have seen these products come into New Zealand and be manufactured with additives of prescription medicines within them. Now, that is clearly not a case of having good manufacturing practice. I do not believe that we cannot trust this spectrum of manufacturers who are so high and mighty in terms of their views on this issue in New Zealand. In fact, I think they need to be absolutely sidelined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper will allow time to implement the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations to legislate that the manufacturers of these psychoactive drugs will have to prove that they are safe. I must add that if they are psychoactive substances that are smoked, we learnt during the submissions from the Ministry of Health that just about every product that is smoked or inhaled has a carcinogenic effect. It will be very, very hard to prove safety. So there is no doubt that this has to be done very carefully, and, as the Minister pointed out, the manufacturers will use every mechanism available to them to dream up some new way of presenting these drugs to the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESeveral years ago there was an amendment that introduced a rapid mechanism to try to combat the fact that they would always be trying to be one step ahead of the legislators. I think that that is almost impossible to combat, and it proved impossible for that legislation. Consequently, the suggestion that the Law Commission has come up with is entirely relevant, and I am sure that the Minister will pursue those recommendations relentlessly, so that hopefully we not only reduce the input of these drugs but also do everything possible to minimise harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022df32023913d9434b8ca51d624edbaee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df32023913d9434b8ca51d624edbaee2\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise, as other speakers have done, to support the direction in which the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill is going and, in particular, to discuss the Supplementary Order Paper put forward by the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne. I pick up the point that both Iain Lees-Galloway and Paul Hutchison have made, because I too have been approached, as have other MPs, by members of the public deeply concerned about the easy availability of products such as Kronic and other similar cannabinoids\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225636bbd998464d0a814358b87c0f112c\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Beautifully said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b4437edba0411aa99ffb080579a7d2\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Dr Hutchison approves of that; excellent\u2014and other synthetic products, which clearly have been sold and marketed in a way that is inappropriate, and that most New Zealanders would deem to be not something they want to see in the corner dairy or in a place where their children would be going. The intervention that is now coming from the Minister is another stage in managing this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Minister answered the questions that my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway put forward, and I understand that everybody acknowledges that this is a stopgap measure and not, in fact, the long-term answer to the problem. With any stopgap measure there will be some issues. The Minister has outlined the process that would allow us to get products off the shelf quickly if they reappear. I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is whether there is sufficient room in what is proposed to deal with a situation where a product is put on the shelves, the Gazette notice goes in once it is found, and the product then goes, but the new product is already pre-prepared and emerges, and we go through the same process every 7 days. That is the weakness that we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am not overly criticising the Minister for that. I am just saying that the gap in this process, in the absence of a full regime, is that, theoretically, the producers of these products could now be preparing a series of slightly different products that will be drip-fed into the market every 7 days or however long it is from when the Gazette notice is put out to when it is enforced. I do not think there is an answer to that question for the Minister, really, but that is still the gap that we have, because we have a stopgap measure such as this one before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI do not know what that means for the stockpiling issue. I think that that, again, creates a situation whereby some people potentially will be stockpiling different products of a similar nature. Although I think this amendment is something that we obviously support, because it is an issue that we have to deal with, and because these are products that have had demonstrably negative effects on people, the measures that the Minister is proposing today have gaps, and they are gaps that will be exploited by the producers of these products. Obviously, we then simply have to hope that the regime is, surely, only temporary, and that we move as quickly as possible to the recommendations in the Law Commission\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere has been criticism from this side of the Chamber\u2014and it is worth noting\u2014that we do not feel that things have moved as quickly as they might have, in response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022001d35f3fdd7440b8678f87dfdde8c69\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s nothing new. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a9cff0dc22944e1aca7a6edf4892f75\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Well, there is so much to criticise; that is the thing. In this case we congratulate the Minister on bringing this measure forward, but we believe that the response to the Law Commission\u2019s report needs to move as quickly as possible. It is, as my colleague has said, time to think about a new regime when it comes to the Misuse of Drugs Act. That is obviously what is contemplated in the Law Commission\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEssentially, when we look at the Law Commission\u2019s report we see that it wants to move to a situation where we have an Act that is administered by the Ministry of Health and is in fact a health-based Act. All the things I have heard, as a member of the Health Committee and more broadly, would point to that being the best basis for us to develop a drug regime\u2014to base it on health effects. It is still extraordinary to most people whom I have interacted with about this situation that there is not a testing regime in place before the products reach the market. That is the fundamental thing that people simply cannot understand. At the risk of going slightly off-topic, I say that it was interesting to note the comments of one user of these synthetic cannabis products, who is quoted on the Stuff website today. His name is written here; it is Phil Stephens. He has given it to the newspaper, so I am sure he will not mind me making him famous in Parliament. He stated: \u201CI\u2019ve tried most of the different brands over the past year or so. If you know the difference between the real stuff and the synthetic version, you can tell they\u2019re not the same thing, but a layman probably couldn\u2019t.\u201D Mr Stephens then went on to say that he thought the 12-month ban on the substances was a good idea, so I say to the Minister in the chair that he has a fan, in one of the users. But he then went on to say, and this is the point I want to make, that the 12-month ban was \u201Cprobably the best thing they can do. At least that way someone is doing some research and testing into this stuff.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is a user of the product noting that there has not been proper testing of these products. From my point of view, the priority has to be to get in place a regime that tests products such as these before they make it on to the shelves. It seems to me to be an extraordinary situation where that process is not in place, and one at which members of the public look and wonder how we could have allowed that to be. So we must move quickly to address that particular gap and create a regime that is robust and applies the principles the Law Commission has suggested, which are about reducing harm\u2014instead of the \u201Cinstant criminal\u201D approach, making sure there is a graduated response overall, in terms of drugs, and making sure we have an Act that is based on the important role of the health system in managing it. Drugs are not just a criminal issue. They become a criminal issue, but they are a health issue primarily, and we must deal with them that way round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFrom our point of view the Supplementary Order Paper introduced by the Minister is something that we can support. We support the amendments on the basis that we need to do something now, but I do not want our support to be interpreted as believing that this stopgap measure is the be-all and end-all. I think it has gaps, which will be exploited, but I also believe that we need to move as quickly as possible to take on board the other recommendations of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am concerned about the stockpiling issue alongside the likely drip-feeding of new products, and if the Minister had anything he wanted to say about that, I would be grateful. The Labour Party will support this Supplementary Order Paper and the wider bill as well, but we do so knowing that there is much, much more to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7b2b547652345ca92cb2c8c72a8f271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7b2b547652345ca92cb2c8c72a8f271\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in the Committee stage to speak on Part 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. Primarily I wish to speak to the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, but first I signal my disappointment in the speakers around the Chamber\u2014not so much disappointment in the content of their speeches, but in the way they intend to vote on, particularly, the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of talk about stopgap measures, and about how the gazetting will cause a delay of 7 days before products need to be removed from shelves. In effect what we are doing through this Supplementary Order Paper is banning a substance that, at the moment, is legally available. I do not think there is any disagreement about the fact that children should not have access to substances of these kinds; they certainly should not. But if we are looking to find real solutions, we first need to look to completely rewrite the Misuse of Drugs Act more quickly than is being done, but also find a solution that is workable. We all know\u2014and I have heard each of the members who have spoken so far say this on other occasions\u2014that prohibition does not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMy Supplementary Order Paper looks at this issue in a different way. It acknowledges the fact that adults in this country\u2014those who are over 18 years of age\u2014actually can make decisions for themselves. But it also puts in place pretty hefty measures to protect our young people. My Supplementary Order Paper proposes that \u201CAn age-restricted drug can only be sold to people over the age of 18.\u201D Secondly, it puts in place the following penalties for breaching such an age restriction: retailers or distributers that breach the age restriction would face after their first offence a fine of $10,000; following a second offence they would face a fine of $25,000; and following a third and subsequent offences they would face a fine of $50,000. This is not chicken feed, and it sends a very strong signal to sellers and suppliers of Kronic-like substances\u2014or any psychoactive substance, for that matter\u2014that this is unacceptable behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere would also be compulsory closure of premises of retailers or distributors for 7 days following a third and subsequent offences. It acknowledges the fact that those who are deemed adults in this country\u2014they can vote, they can get married, and they can be sent to war\u2014are, in fact, the owners of their own lives and their own bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere is a sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu with this whole debate. I myself sat on the Health Committee when on a number of occasions we have looked at Misuse of Drugs Amendment bills\u2014there have been a variety of them. I think particularly of the benzylpiperazine (BZP) debate. There was no regulation at first with BZP; it was freely available. We then decided that it should in fact have an R18 classification\u2014it should be available only to those people who are 18 years of age and over. Then a bit further down the track we banned the substance completely. When it was banned there was, of course, as others have highlighted in the Committee, a raft or a wave of other, similar substances that did not have the BZP active ingredient in them, that quickly came to the fore. I see Mr Iain Lees-Galloway shaking his head. I am disappointed that he will not support my Supplementary Order Paper, because I have also heard him speak about how prohibition does not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe real point here is that when we ban or prohibit substances, it does not mean that people stop using them. What it means is that their use goes underground, and a black market builds\u2014usually a thriving black market, which then heavily inflates prices\u2014and becomes prevalent in our society. It actually removes the ability for proper enforcement of the laws we already have. Those very people whom we seek to protect\u2014the under-18-year-olds; the children in our society\u2014also have the ability, if they can find the money, which they very often can, to buy these substances on the black market themselves. Quite how National or Labour\u2014they are the speakers we have heard from so far, but I suspect the other parties in this Chamber believe this too\u2014believe this helps our young people and the dearth that drugs are in our society, I do not know. It is much better to have these things above board. How this helps them is beyond me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI agree with the points that have been made by all speakers about a complete rewrite of the Misuse of Drugs Act. That is well overdue, and should be attended to very quickly. I do not agree with all of the provisions in the Law Commission\u2019s report; I think the basic principles of adults being adults, and being responsible for their own actions and the consequences that come with those actions, should be much more prevalent, but protection of our young people is crucial. I think all psychoactive substances should be covered by new legislation. The same rules and regulations should apply to all. I put in this category\u2014as we also have on our Order Paper in this Chamber\u2014the alcohol reform debate. Alcohol and drugs\u2014in my view, and in the ACT Party\u2019s view\u2014should be looked at in the same way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson also raised the very pertinent issue of this being a health issue versus a crime issue. I agree entirely with the comments he made. I myself have talked a lot about the medicalisation versus the criminalisation of drug issues. Following a United Nations instigation over the past 40 years, we have dealt with this as a crime issue, when in fact in our society it is primarily a health one. I hope that when it comes to the rewrite of the Misuse of Drugs Act that is taken into consideration, and decision making and policy making are centred on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMr Robertson also mentioned research and testing, and of course he is absolutely right. Although we have provisions in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper before us on the Table now, when we have gazetting that allows 7 days, it will become a 7-day race, make no bones about that\u2014a 7-day race to get things on the Table before they are gazetted, and another 7 days to get them off the Table. Research and testing will never happen as it should. Therefore, the products that people will continue to buy, whether they are legally on shelves or bought on the black market, will never occur. So the problems our clinicians face at accident and emergency departments far too often, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights, will continue when they are trying to deal with drugs and they have, in many cases, no idea what the drug is or which active substances it contains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EDespite the fact that my Supplementary Order Paper has come to the Table very late in the day, I ask every party to carefully consider the provisions in it before they vote. They make sense; they allow for over 18-year-olds\u2014adults who are responsible for themselves\u2014to not be criminalised for buying these substances. It is much better to have them in the open, rather than underground in the black market scenario, yet it would still provide for the safety and security of our young people. The law would be enforceable and would be enforced in a pretty hefty way, with a $10,000 fine for the first offence, $25,000 for the second offence, and $50,000 for the third and subsequent offence. Retailers or distributors that breach the age restriction would face compulsory closure of their premises for 7 days following the third and subsequent offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party will oppose the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, but I implore parties to think very carefully about the realities of the situations that exist. People know that the black market and driving this sort of activity underground are completely counter-productive in society. I implore them to think carefully about putting in place sensible measures that are enforceable and that get the incentives in the right place. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00226467a2c68cca44a1a6396039d37d3324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226467a2c68cca44a1a6396039d37d3324\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Once again we find ourselves in the Chamber trying to deal with a very, very difficult issue\u2014an issue that most of us probably feel somewhat compromised on. We continually contradict ourselves, I suggest, when it comes to the issue of drugs\u2014well, if we are talking about mind-altering substances, I guess. How could any party oppose the Associate Minister of Health\u2019s initiative? It is a very good one; it is a move to try to reduce the harm from a new substance on the market that has been identified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOur young people in this country are somewhat confused, as well. If we make an assumption that it is mainly young people we are trying to protect from themselves and that they are the main buyers of these new products, in particular, then we have to ask whether we are giving them consistent messages through Parliament. We have numerous laws that state that young people cannot do this or should not do that, but then we tell them to be innovative and creative and to get on with their lives. No matter what we do in this Committee, in terms of banning substances, tomorrow people will be working on and creating new substances, because they are innovative and smart, and they want something new. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is important that whatever legislation we pass here is flexible enough, and I think the Associate Minister\u2019s attempt here is reasonable. At the Minister of Health\u2019s discretion he can intervene and declare a new substance as something that can be investigated, and a temporary ban can be put on it. I think it is a good attempt, but if we are going to be consistent, then the only way that we will beat this over time is through decent education, so that people, be they young or old, know what they are consuming by smoking, sucking, drinking, or whatever. They need to know what the substance is, and there needs to be some resilience so that around them there is positive peer pressure to resist the consumer campaigns, or whatever, that will develop around new products that will come on to the market month upon month following the passage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have heard that the Government is currently waiting to consider the Law Commission\u2019s report and that there are a number of recommendations in the report\u2014a reasonable number, 45 or something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e304bab4e334b92a88543a021a16b4d\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Just on this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231441248263e47afb9fdc47d1ee5ce0f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. I thank the Associate Minister. There is another Law Commission report hanging around, as well\u2014one on alcohol. If the Associate Minister and the Government were to be consistent here, and if we were to have a look at the harm caused by the substances we are trying to address in this particular legislation, compared with the harm we know occurs every single weekend of every single year, which has been clearly documented, identified, and connected to alcohol, then the Opposition members would welcome a return to the House of a bill on alcohol. The Government refuses to do that. Although I appreciate the Associate Minister\u2019s efforts and the Government\u2019s efforts to move very quickly in this area of drugs, which everyone will applaud, the reality is that the Government is refusing to move on an issue that is of far greater harm every single day and every weekend in every week of this year. The Associate Minister knows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question is what the young people and the people out there are going to think. Are we a bunch of hypocrites? Should we be consistent? Should we send a consistent message to people that we will put in place laws that accurately identify those who produce a substance, force them to identify what is in the substance, and then let people make the call on whether they consume it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI am not an advocate of decriminalisation and of saying that just because people are over 18 they should be able to consume what they like. This Parliament has to make the tough calls and provide guidance in order to reduce self-harm and harm to others. Do not for a moment think we are addressing just the issue of self-harm here. Every area of drug consumption and abuse has flow-on effects that are serious and that run right through families and communities. We have an obligation in this Committee when we are addressing legislation like this\u2014and Labour supports it, because it is an attempt to address the issue\u2014but we should not for a moment think that this eases our conscience in any way about the real issues of drug utilisation and abuse in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe same officials who have given advice on this legislation are probably giving advice on the Law Commission\u2019s report on alcohol. We should ask them to move along quickly. I ask the Associate Minister and the Government to move along quickly and to show us what they are going to do about the acute harm caused by alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is difficult for the Opposition members to applaud too loudly on the moves in this legislation, given the reality that we will probably have to come back to the House to address other innovations by manufacturers in the area of drugs, and to try to keep ahead of them. We will be back in the House in the near future addressing, we hope, the serious issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe can identify the deaths, child abuse, road accidents, and other harms directly connected to alcohol. I am no wowser, but if I am going to get up to speak on this legislation, then I have to acknowledge that a far greater harm is currently being ignored by the Government. We would like to see some progress on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAlthough we are working through this legislation in a sensible way\u2014we are not banning these substances; we know that will drive them underground\u2014we want to check and control the manufacture of all of these things. Let us honestly admit that there will be new innovations and new products. We need to think ahead and through either education or knowledge give to the young people, the older people, and all those people who consume these substances the tools to know what they might be doing to themselves. Only then will we start to get ahead of the serious issue of drug abuse across this country and the consequences of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EPeople have made a song and dance about child abuse, which is one of the most horrific things occurring in this country. Many of those issues about child abuse unfortunately relate back to drug abuse. We have to acknowledge that, and we have to get on and do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn supporting this legislation I cannot clap too loudly, because there is still a bigger issue that the Government refuses to bring back to the House, which is alcohol and the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00223b57c10acc174a3b9acad0f15d49d457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b57c10acc174a3b9acad0f15d49d457\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in the Committee stage of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill and I certainly want to congratulate the Associate Minister of Health, the Hon Peter Dunne, on bringing in the Supplementary Order Papers on Part 1 that make provision for the temporary class drug orders, which are for these untested psychoactive drugs that have caused so much harm in our society\u2014and the drug Kronic is the one that most people relate to. The legislation will effectively bring in a 12-month ban of these substances while they are assessed and tested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI am pleased the Minister has moved swiftly; there has been growing concern mounting in the media and in our community about these untested products. They are not benign\u2014that is for sure. We have certainly had a lot of reports of health problems: youth presenting to accident and emergency departments with difficulties with their health. Also, drugs such as Kronic have been found in the wreckages of cars in road accidents. So there definitely has been concern. It has been growing, it has been mounting, and I am pleased that the Minister has moved swiftly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis law is expected to be in place by 5 August, which means that all 43 current products that are in this category will be off the shelves within the week. It means that they will be tested, looked at, and assessed over the following year. It is an interim measure. It is not meant to be a long-term solution, but we had to have an interim measure that was viable and workable, and this certainly is all of that. I am pleased that the Minister has made a comment that there will a more durable law in place sometime next year, but this will certainly be a stopgap measure and I applaud him for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt is important that we do get the eventual enduring law\u2014one that will endure into the future\u2014and it is important that we get it right, hence the 12-month pause to assess the situation, assess the drugs on the market, and take it from there. It would be too easy to have a knee-jerk reaction and bring in legislation that was not going to work, as has happened in other countries. I must admit I have been quite surprised\u2014probably I should not have been too surprised\u2014by the defiant attitude of the sellers and manufacturers of these substances. In the newspapers they are saying that they will just bring in new substances that will replace the ones that are banned. But I am also equally pleased that the Minister has been equally defiant, saying that if that happens, those substances will be gazetted just as quickly and put under temporary drug order bans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill complements a suite of actions the Government has introduced to combat the effects of P\u2014methamphetamine. This is just one part of the whole suite of actions. There is no doubt that P, methamphetamine, has had a devastating effect on our community and on individuals. It has wrecked lives, basically. Specifically, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine will now become class B drugs, which means they will be available on prescription and people can no longer buy them across the counter, as has been the case. We know that there are other alternatives to treat flu and colds. I am speaking of phenylephrine, which will be able to be bought across the counter. Of course, pseudoephedrine can still be a prescription medicine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Papers the Minister has brought in send a very strong message to our community that we do not want our young people to be harmed by these untested psychoactive drugs and that they have no place whatsoever in our society. We want to reduce harm from these untested psychoactive drugs and I applaud the Supplementary Order Papers that the Minister has brought in, in a very timely way. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002293b693f551bb4760be7d5ba6437e529e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b693f551bb4760be7d5ba6437e529e\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin with some comment about clauses 4 and 6 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. I reiterate the Green Party\u2019s opposition to those clauses, which relate to utensils. We will be supporting Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 260 to remove clause 4 from the bill. In respect of clause 6, which relates to pseudoephedrine, the evidence really points to the fact that the measure that is proposed in the bill will have little effect on its desired outcome, but there will be considerable cost and inconvenience to many. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe debate in this Committee stage has focused largely on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, and I want to make some comments about that. The Green Party will be opposing the Supplementary Order Paper, but I will begin my comments about the Supplementary Order Paper by saying that we believe that it is ridiculous that psychoactive compounds, without any kind of safety testing, can reach retail shelves without any kind of control except for the provision that already exists in law for smokeable compounds to be restricted to people over the age of 18. That is absurd. I would think that probably everybody in the Chamber would agree with that. Therefore, something does need to be done about this problem in our law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI also accept the point that Jackie Blue has just made that some of the synthetic cannabinoids, in particular, clearly do have harmful effects. There is an acceptance that there is some real harm. However, I make the point that these compounds have in fact been on our retail shelves not just over the past few weeks but for years. So the urgency that the Minister is being praised for in this situation seems to be misplaced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThere seems to me to be an opportunity to take a more considered approach, which is what the Green Party favours. I accept the point that I think Iain Lees-Galloway probably made most strongly in this debate that the public has reached the point of wanting to see something done. I suspect that that is what lies behind the urgency here. Although it is important that we are responsive to public mood, I am not sure that that is actually the most appropriate driver for this Parliament\u2019s behaviour and decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe point that I made in the second reading debate about the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper I think still holds true. Members may recall that at that time I challenged the Minister to table his Supplementary Order Paper then, before the 2-week adjournment that this Parliament has just had. That would at least have enabled some form of truncated public process in order to enable members of the public to have a say about the Minister\u2019s proposed approach to this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe reality here is that all of those who made submissions on this bill, or perhaps chose not to make submissions, could not possibly have had the expectation that this Supplementary Order Paper would now be included in it. Here we are about to make a very serious decision on the basis of public concern without giving the public and other interested parties the opportunity to have a say about it. That is poor process, and it is one of the reasons why the Green Party will oppose the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Minister is right that it is important to get this right. He is right about that. But we think also that the formulation of this Supplementary Order Paper is wrong. This is not the right way to go about that task. The Green Party may have supported an approach that enabled these substances to be classified as restricted substances, according to the 2005 amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act. However, this approach is wrong in several aspects, and I want to mention a couple of those. First of all, in the Associate Minister\u2019s comments in this debate, he spoke about psychoactive substances, and we have all approached this debate on the assumption that that is what we are talking about. That is not what the Supplementary Order Paper states. The Supplementary Order Paper talks about any substance; it is not restricted to psychoactive substances, at all. For example, there is the substance sodium chloride. That is a substance. It meets the definition in the Supplementary Order Paper. I think most scientists would agree that it causes harm. This Supplementary Order Paper enables the Minister of Health to gazette a notice to actually prohibit that from sale. Is that what we want? I guess we would say that sodium chloride is not psychoactive. There is a psychoactive substance called C2H5OH, which is ethanol. Is it intended that the Supplementary Order Paper will be used for that? It certainly could be. Possibly it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI think there are some very real issues about the definition of \u201Csubstance\u201D. There are some issues around how the Minister will go about the task of drawing the line and of determining the risk or possible risk to individuals or society. This Supplementary Order Paper places an awful lot of discretionary power with the Minister, with a political appointee, rather than with, say, the expert advisory committee. Is that the appropriate approach? The Supplementary Order Paper also has no sunset clause. We think those are three fundamental problems with the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe do like the exemption that the Supplementary Order Paper contains for possession of small amounts. We believe that is a good start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by referring to the Law Commission\u2019s report, as others have done. I say that it is right that we take the appropriate amount of time to respond with all due haste to this. It may well not have been possible to fully respond to the report in the time available, but it surely would have been possible in the time available to enact the commission\u2019s recommendations about this particular problem and to place the onus on manufacturers, importers, and suppliers to establish safety before a product can be made available for sale in New Zealand. That is what should have happened in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00227bb6cac551b34beb859d1eda411995c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bb6cac551b34beb859d1eda411995c0\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill in its Committee stage. I want to look at Part 1 and at some of the things that we have not really talked about too much today. Obviously, this bill is designed to amend the existing legislation and to improve the effectiveness of drug control. But the main purpose of the bill, notwithstanding the Supplementary Order Paper, is to reclassify ephedrine and pseudoephedrine as a class B2 controlled drug. It also removes thalidomide as a class A controlled drug. It allows a hazardous substance to be scheduled also as a restricted substance. It extends the definition of amphetamine analogues, and it extends the controls over drug paraphernalia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe reason we are reclassifying ephedrine and pseudoephedrine is designed to close off the local source of supply of precursor substance for the illegal manufacture of methamphetamine in the country. It is just another line of attack to support the Government\u2019s determination to clamp down on P and to clamp down on the damage that it causes to New Zealand\u2019s communities. At the same time as this bill being passed, the Government is also taking steps to break drug supply chains and to improve the availability of, and access to, drug treatments for addicts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that most of the submissions to the Health Committee considering this bill were about the drug utensils provision. Most were concerned that prohibiting drug utensils would not work because users would make their own implements\u2014for example, they would use light bulbs for taking P and bits of plumbing hardware to make pipes for smoking. However, the majority of that select committee felt that the display of specifically redesigned drug-taking utensils in stores glamorised drug taking and attracted more users. It was interesting that this was a similar argument that was used about the display of cigarettes and tobacco products, which was banned by this House just a few weeks ago. Making it an offence to sell, supply, and import utensils will assist the anti-drug effort by ensuring the public receives a consistent message about the unacceptability of illegal drugs. I think a comment made in the Chamber tonight is that we want some consistency in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere was also concern from submitters that if cold and flu preparations containing pseudoephedrine were available only by prescription, it would be unnecessarily expensive and inconvenient for patients to visit their doctor to get a prescription. However, the committee was reassured by Professor Sir Peter Gluckman that there are plenty of effective alternatives available, and I think we agreed with him that the risk of the diversion of pseudoephedrine-based products into the manufacture of methamphetamines outweighed the benefits of their over-the-counter availability. A more limited choice of cold and flu remedies was acceptable, in the interests of the public good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI would like to move to the discussion on Supplementary Order Paper 258 and to support these amendments, which are in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne. The key to this is that it introduces temporary class drug notices. They can provide a temporary ban for unregulated psychoactive substances such as Kronic and other synthetic cannabis products, taking them off the market for 12 months. Although the risks of Kronic and other similar substances are unknown, there are real fears of potential long-term effects. It is unacceptable to the Government that a product that causes potentially lethal risks is available freely to young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOver the past few months there has been increasing evidence of the dangerous effects of these drugs, and, just like many members in the Chamber today, I have been approached by concerned parents, one of whom had had a near-death experience with their son, who had taken Kronic. It is very frightening for parents, but also for the community. Recently we have also seen contamination of these products with prescription medicines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI think that these temporary class drug notices are a good interim measure and a precautionary approach that will get these products off the shelves now and for at least 12 months. But, as we have heard, the Government\u2019s long-term aim is to implement the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations to reverse the onus of proof and to require the industry to prove that its products are safe before they can be sold to the public. The current situation is that manufacturers can come up with a product like Kronic and, as long as it fits within the category and does not include illegal substances, it can be sold as of right. The Government believes that this needs to be changed, and it expects to introduce legislation to do this by the middle of next year. In the meantime, this Supplementary Order Paper 258 will be a well-received stopgap measure, and I thank the Minister for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002246de0778be5546549e092154f5607c36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246de0778be5546549e092154f5607c36\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for allowing me to have this opportunity to speak to Part 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. Although the Labour caucus is supportive of both this bill and Supplementary Order Paper 258, which has been put forward by the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, one cannot help but think that the level of hype that has been afforded to this bill and the Supplementary Order Paper is a little above their station. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister has put in front of us on the banning of synthetic cannabis, what mums and dads out there in New Zealand wanted to have was a consistent message from the Minister about what he was going to do about the likes of Kronic, but we have not had that. Although I congratulate the Minister on coming to a position, we have not had a consistent position for the last 4 months. Around 4 months ago, when the Minister was asked about the limited sale and advertisement of synthetic cannabis, what did we get from him? It was not the position that we see in the Supplementary Order Paper today; it was: \u201CI have instructed the Ministry of Health to begin the process of putting the necessary controls in place. I expect these changes to come into effect next year.\u201D There was not much urgency in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust as mums and dads may have got a whiff of Kronic from their sons\u2019 or daughters\u2019 bedrooms or the garage, I think the Minister may have got a whiff of public sentiment and the public mood, and he decided that things had to move a little bit quicker than he had first anticipated. There was some movement on 3 June, when he was asked why he had not banned synthetic cannabis. The response then was that the evidence was not strong enough to go as far as doing that, and that he did not want to go down that path. But we have taken a step closer to that in the Supplementary Order Paper that is before the Committee now, and I think the mums and dads out there who are looking for a consistent message will be happy with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust a month and a half ago, another question was asked about the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations. The response from the Minister on that occasion was that the Government was \u201Cunder certain statutory requirements and we have the complications of a general election occurring \u2026\u201D. I am glad that those complications have been sorted out since 17 June. Late yesterday afternoon, as this announcement was made, the message from the Minister, finally, was: \u201CI felt we couldn\u2019t wait. I wanted to make sure we had a mechanism that simply removes these items from our shelves completely.\u201D So it took 4 months, but we got a result in the end. There has been inconsistent messaging regarding that, but we support the fact that this Supplementary Order Paper has been introduced to the Committee so that we finally have some form of action on the banning of synthetic cannabis. We support it, but how we got here leaves a few questions to be answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIn terms of Part 1 of the bill, at the moment we believe that it will do no harm, but we think it could have gone further. Again, this is another instance where the hype might not exactly marry up with what is included in the bill. This bill looks to control ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in the Government\u2019s war on P, but, as I said in a previous contribution on this bill, I think there is more of a fracas over P. It is not really a war on P. The Government is making huge capital out of it as it sends out its pamphlets about the war on P, but this bill itself does not take serious action. I think it is more about politics than taking serious action against P. I understand clause 4 includes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd7455d205754f6daac0729b5c818972\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Pipes, utensils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1d4e92c91c436883d251290ba2e370\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014pipes and utensils. My colleague sitting next to me, Iain Lees-Galloway, has put up Supplementary Order Paper 260 because we believe there is no scientific evidence that this clause will make much difference. Actually, in some cases, it could cause more harm to people who may not be using these kinds of utensils, so we believe, as the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper proposes, that this clause should be removed from the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere is also another cost of living issue here. Now that those people who have serious colds or the flu have to go to the doctor to get hold of the good stuff, in terms of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf93f14682640a49589e17564045ae4\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How much will it cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3eaadf0780422cb3e7f53b5d70be7e\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014how much will it cost? Exactly. The Ministry of Health has not done sufficient work on the cost implications that will have for families who are struggling to make ends meet and also on the kind of impact it will have on the workload of general practitioners, who may now have a flood of people during the winter months who come to them to ask for medicine that was readily available through pharmacies before this law came into effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo we are also concerned about some cost of living issues around this measure, and those have not been addressed in this bill. We still have some serious concerns about what may happen in terms of the effect on families who are struggling to make ends meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe also have other concerns about Part 1, and I go back to the placing of further restrictions on drug utensils, which Mr Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper referred to, and the negative health effects that that may have on people who are still using cannabis to date. If I recall correctly, there is a filter in some of the utensils used to smoke cannabis that may ensure the filtration of some of the harmful toxins, so the utensils were having some positive effects on some of the people who use the pipes. The fact that this bill looks to ban the use of utensils, or the importation of utensils, is of serious concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI go back to the overriding theme that I touched on before, and that is the politicisation around this bill, and the fact that it does not really achieve what the Government has set out to do in its multi-pronged attack in the war on P. We believe that this bill does not really address the issue of ensuring that we cut down on the production and use of P in our communities. There is absolutely no debate about the fact that P is a massive problem in our communities\u2014it certainly is in the electorate that I represent\u2014but if we are to take some real action on it, we need to ensure that this legislation has the detail in it to ensure that we can control the importation of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine. We do not believe it does. It is my understanding that 80-plus percent of the pseudoephedrine that comes into New Zealand for the manufacture of P does not come through the corner pharmacy\u2014not at all. It is being brought in illegally through our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ETo give credit where credit is due, there have been a lot of high-profile cases recently where large consignments of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine have been stopped at our border, but if we are to have a real crackdown on the ingredients for P, I ask why we are bringing in this measure, which will affect only the mums, dads, and families at home, who rely on some decent medicine in our pharmacies in order to ensure that every winter they have a decent cold and flu remedy. This bill does not really take us in the direction that we need to go in the war on P. It is off target in a way, because, as I say, the main factor in the war on P should be making sure that we crack down on the supply and importation of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine at our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EJust to finish, I say this bill does not address the real issue around the production of P. It is purely window dressing. Although we do support the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister has introduced and we are very happy that we have got here, the way that we have got here leaves a lot to be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a98f26cb17c04942bbf16996652290bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a98f26cb17c04942bbf16996652290bd\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, a bill that was considered by the Health Committee when I was a member of it, although I am not a member now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228376cb5903584728842ab61d70b3cbbb\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s gone downhill, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bdba0ebaa4842cda1fb0df6031f7105\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the sentiment, but I am sure my colleagues are holding the fort extremely well. I am not sure whether there is any business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThis bill was a really interesting one for the committee. We first heard about herbal tobaccos or herbal highs when we were deliberating the Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, and there was consideration of whether herbal tobacco should be included in the display bans. The amount of media coverage on, and the committee\u2019s awareness of, this very harmful set of substances grew quite considerably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI was at a conference in Christchurch in May when a young man of about 21 talked to me about his experience with the Accident Compensation Corporation following a serious head injury. I have to say, his experience with the Timaru branch was very good. The conversation turned on to the use of herbal highs, and he described his experience of using Kronic Pineapple Express, I think it was called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAt that point, I thought it might be worth trying. It is legal\u2014even then it was only just classified R18\u2014and I had contemplated giving it a go to see what the reaction might be. After the conversation with this fellow, I did not. He described an extraordinary experience where he was hallucinating and where his peripheral limbs virtually went numb. He said to me that he was legally able to drive, but he could hardly walk. There is a case in New Zealand where the police are investigating a fatal accident where Kronic may have been a contributing factor to a young person dying on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThis is a very important issue. Yes, it is emotive. We may not have the science, but I congratulate the Associate Minister of Health Peter Dunne, and I encourage strength to the arm of the development of the regulatory framework that will avoid the cat-and-mouse situation that we run the risk of having over the next 12 months, as Mr Grant Robertson described. I think that risk is low but real, and I think we need to be extremely nimble in order to identify these products as they come on the market and to ensure that they are removed with all haste. I regret that we are not able to create that temporary regulatory framework, but I understand that the definitional issues could be very challenging. I do encourage the Minister of Health and the ministry in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI will touch on the comments of ACT MP Heather Roy, because I think there is a liberal streak in all of us on this side of the House that says there is an element of live and let live to this issue. I have to say that I would accept that to a point, with two exceptions. One is the number of people who challenge me to ensure that our health services are accessible to the widest number of New Zealanders. I think we have done an extremely good job of providing a lot more with a little more resources, but it really is not acceptable for me to stand by as a member of this House and not create a climate that prevents our young people from harming themselves to the point where they may be admitted to emergency departments around the country. I cannot then look other constituents in the eye and say that we are doing our best in the health sector. I simply cannot do it. I accept the liberal view of live and let live, but these substances clearly have a very negative effect, particularly on our young. To put it into our dairies and not even have an R18 classification on it\u2014even though the manufacturers claim they encourage that\u2014is quite a challenging situation that I am pleased we have resolved. It is about denormalising this thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Hon Damien O\u2019Connor made some interesting comparisons with alcohol that I strongly disagree with. We could put motor vehicles or fatty foods into the same category. A lot of things will cause us harm if we use them in the wrong dosage. That is not the case with these herbal highs. None of it will do us any good. As Dr Hutchison said, ingesting this stuff into our lungs has to be terribly harmful, regardless of the psychoactive substances that will turn our neurons into scrambled eggs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIn summary, I really strongly support this measure. I am sorry that some members are not going to support it, although I understand why. I do think this is progress, and I think our children will certainly thank us for it in the long run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022403f80fdf76d43e39053c4e76f020421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403f80fdf76d43e39053c4e76f020421\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E That was a pretty half-hearted speech from Michael Woodhouse, and I completely understand why. I absolutely understand why. It is because that member was a member of the Health Committee, he thinks about the issues, and he knows that the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill does very, very little to progress the issues that everyone in this Chamber cares passionately about. If this is the war on P, I do not think we have even got the pistol, let alone anything to truly deal with the drug problem in New Zealand. That member knows, because he sat on the select committee and listened to people saying: \u201CYou seriously want to ban the import of pipes, and you think that will do something? You seriously want to take flu tablets off the pharmacy shelves and you think that will fix anything?\u201D. People were laughing at Associate Minister of Health Peter Dunne during the select committee process, because this really does not meet the standard that we should be debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E I do not understand why this has gone backwards and forwards in the Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s mind, until suddenly he had a complete change of heart\u2014for the fourth time\u2014and said we had to do something urgently, dramatically, and immediately, and he introduced this bill. It will not do any harm at all. It is taking up some of Parliament\u2019s time, and that is all right; it is a valid part of democracy. But it certainly will not take the sort of action we need to deal with issues like P and Kronic. I am just disappointed. I thought the Minister had a bit more innovation within his portfolio mandate, but he does not seem to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI read the Attorney-General\u2019s comments with some concern. I am surprised that Minister Finlayson is not here to take a call and explain why he is now silent on the issue of concern he raised in relation to this bill. He said that by the Government taking cold and flu tablets off pharmacy shelves and making them prescription only, we are looking at a presumption of supply when purchasing those previously non-prescription medications. That presumption of supply, I think, is unfair on the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders who go into the chemist to buy their cold and flu tablets\u2014guess why? It is because they have a bad cold or the flu and they want something immediate to deal with it. Why are those people now being required to buy something that may or may not be as effective as what they had been using, or to go to the doctor? That does not make a lot of sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d5a97e83a7448283d911e91941b78b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 20 percent of new pseudoephedrine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be491ef7eede4cd6a4d7be346836ae18\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Paul Hutchison was also at the select committee. He would have been paying attention, I know, because that is how he is wont to behave at the select committee. He would have listened to the submitters laughing at the fact that the problem we have with P manufacturing in New Zealand does not come from our chemist shops; it comes overwhelmingly from the illegal importing of ingredients\u2014it is over 80 percent. So we are scratching a little bit. At the same time, National members are parading up and down the country saying they have declared a war on drugs. That is just laughable. It is just laughable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe second point I will raise is much more serious, because it does something I think is wrong. It is in relation to clause 4 of this bill. I spoke to a man recently who was moving to New Zealand. He brought with him a huge container of goods. When he went to collect it from Lyttelton Port he was told he had some questions to answer because some of the contents of the container had been confiscated. One of those items was a hookah, a pipe. The customs people had referred it to the police, who took it all to pieces and investigated it. The police said it was clearly an item that had been purchased as a souvenir and that it had never been used for smoking anything legal or illegal. But it was confiscated from him. He had to go through a big investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to comment on the most interesting point, in relation to the fairness or unfairness of it. He may have the opportunity over the dinner break to get some advice on whether this was the correct procedure, or whether my constituent has fallen foul of incompetence. Despite the fact that the police said there was nothing legal or illegal on this pipe and there was no reason for charges to be considered\u2014clearly, the man had bought this pipe as a souvenir and brought it along with all his other goods\u2014they refused to return it to him. The question I pose to the Minister is whether he thinks that that is fair. It would be different if there were something illegal on that pipe, but this was clearly a souvenir. My constituent has never got his blessed hookah back. I think he should have it; he did not do anything wrong. It is legal to buy, it is legal to import, and it did not have anything illegal on it. Will the same thing happen if my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is not supported, now that we are going to clamp down on all of these other drug utensils and identifiable parts, as they are described in the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think that that provision of the bill is just a nonsense. It is a totally interfering way of approaching people who may be doing no harm, like my constituent. They may end up being caused a lot of anxiety and grief for no good reason. This will not help the drug problem we have in New Zealand. This will not go any way towards that. It is just an absolute nonsense, and I am surprised that the Minister, who has so often referred to solutions as being common sense, would allow his name to be attached to this ridiculous clause. There is a great opportunity this evening and tomorrow as we debate the Committee stage for the Minister to quietly support Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, and we can get rid of this nonsensical provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe final point I will make is about the inconsistency of us dealing with this piece of the overall drug abuse requirements outside of the Law Commission report. It is very unusual and it is an inconsistent way of this Government dealing with issues. I do not know whether it was because the other issues were too hard and are therefore being put off because this Government does not like dealing with tough issues, or whether the Government needed some sort of declaration of action, and picked up this little thing rather than waiting for the comprehensive response from the Law Commission, but either way, for whatever reason, it is inconsistent with how this Government has previously dealt with issues. It has approached matters alongside the Law Commission\u2019s reports. I do not understand why it is not doing it in this regard. We should be looking at the recommendations from the Law Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Misuse of Drugs Act is clearly outdated. It was written in the mid-1970s. Drugs were different then, the use of them was different then, and the way we respond as a society should be different and should keep up with the changing use and abuse of drugs. The only thing that has not kept pace with the change is the law itself, so we need a comprehensive look at the misuse of drugs and at how we can ensure that the focus of our legislation is about reducing harm to individuals and to our communities. That should be the centre, not this ad hoc, bitsy, punitive approach that, as the Attorney-General said, assumes people buy their cold and flu tablets at the chemist because they are going to supply some illegal purpose. That is just a nonsense. It is a very shallow way of dealing with what I think New Zealanders have overwhelmingly accepted is a problem that we should all work constructively together to solve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Minister would have been better off ensuring that we had a total, cross-party, agreed response to this, so that we would have an enduring solution that had been well considered and well debated, at least amongst the various parties in Parliament. That is the way the Minister often says in public is a good way of operating\u2014less of this confrontational arguing, party versus party, and more along the way of agreeing that we have a problem, looking at all the options and overseas experience, looking at evidence in terms of responding to that problem, and then trying to get as much political support across parties as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4bed9d4101145d69c00bcadc807bb54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4bed9d4101145d69c00bcadc807bb54\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. There are clearly two parts to the debate, with Supplementary Order Paper 258 in the name of the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Peter Dunne, but I will go back and address the major thrust of Part 1, which the Hon Ruth Dyson spoke about just recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI find it quite astounding that she discounts the domestic supply of amphetamine precursors. The Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister, Sir Peter Gluckman, pointed out in a very, very well-considered paper that the amphetamine market in New Zealand is worth about $1 billion, and that at least\u2014at least\u201410 percent of that is due to the domestic market. The police recognise that it is probably in the area of 30 percent of the $1 billion, so it is worth somewhere between $100 million and $300 million. So when someone like the Hon Ruth Dyson discounts the importance of the domestic supply, it should be of great concern to any New Zealander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that amphetamine and its precursors affect every stratum of New Zealand society. I made the point in debate on the second reading of this bill that in my electorate, in Pukekohe, there was a well-respected chemist in his 60s. He was an elder of the Presbyterian Church and a member of the Rotary club, and he did all sorts of very worthy things in our area. He was recently arrested for selling precursors to gangs over a long period of time. We do not know how he got involved, but I just illustrate that as one of the points that absolutely rebuts what Ruth Dyson is saying. The sale of precursors in New Zealand is deeply embedded in every stratum of New Zealand life. It is not just the importation of precursors from countries like China, but also involves, unfortunately, a roaring trade within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EShe also made the point of asking what about those poor New Zealanders with coughs and colds who want ready remedies. I am sympathetic to that; I do believe that the pseudoephedrine medication is perhaps slightly more effective than those containing phenylephrine. But there is no doubt that on prospective controlled trials, little difference is shown in terms of the way those medications relieve normal coughs, colds, and cases of the flu. Under this legislation pseudoephedrine medication is actually available under prescription. Yes, it will cost a little more\u2014there is no question about that\u2014but there is no doubt that very effective substitutes are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will make some other comments relating to what Iain Lees-Galloway and Damien O\u2019Connor were saying in relation to the synthetic cannabinoids. There is no doubt that one of the major problems about them is that the manufacturers will be continually thinking up new recipes to get around this sort of legislation. That has happened in the past, and it will happen in the future. I think we have all agreed that the Law Commission\u2019s proposal is right and proper. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this Supplementary Order Paper is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhen Kevin Hague suggested that this was just a parliamentary knee-jerk reaction, I thought that was, again, absolutely inappropriate. We have seen right around the country corner dairies selling these synthetic cannabinoids in all sorts of different forms right in the faces of young New Zealanders. This has started to normalise these psychoactive drugs in the ethos of young New Zealanders, let alone New Zealanders right across the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHeather Roy claims that the Supplementary Order Paper will only drive the psychoactive drugs underground. That may be correct to a certain extent, but we now have a situation in New Zealand that certainly was not here 10 to 20 years ago. Those drugs are being sold all over the place, apparently legitimately. Mixed with a culture of alcohol and of binge drinking that we know prevails in New Zealand, they make quite a terrifying public health challenge that we just have to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt would be nice to be liberal if, indeed, a liberal approach worked. There is no doubt that the Law Commission\u2019s suggestions about education, harm minimisation, and making sure that we have appropriate rehabilitation facilities are very important, but this Government wants to give absolutely clear messages about the harm of these substances to young New Zealanders. The great worry is that they may well become entrapped by the ruthless marketing that we have seen from these manufacturers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI absolutely reject the views of the Hon Ruth Dyson, and I am very concerned about the views of Heather Roy when we have a situation of normalising many of these drugs for our young people in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022be099a61fcf34ebf945a77940f428031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be099a61fcf34ebf945a77940f428031\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I really am not very pleased to take a call on the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill. We have been waiting for Supplementary Order Paper 258 from Minister Dunne since we last spoke on this in the House. I, like the Greens\u2019 Kevin Hague, am pretty appalled to see a Supplementary Order Paper of this substance come before the Committee and not go out to the public of New Zealand for consultation. We hoped for better from the Minister responsible for drug use issues in New Zealand. This is too complex, and it has implications. The industry is already saying that it can see some loopholes in it, and that it will fill those loopholes very quickly. We are up against a very intelligent domestic industry here\u2014and international industry\u2014which will look at what is proposed, will move, and will find a way through this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think the classification of these substances as a temporary class drug, is a bit of a delay mechanism until the Minister can really get his head around an effective approach to banning these substances. I can see one temporary class drug being classified and sitting on a shelf for a year. The industry will quickly morph to change the product\u2019s ingredients to another substance, and we will have another temporary class drug that is banned for another year. Officials will be chasing their tails to actually classify these temporary class drugs. They will be put on the shelf, then they will pull them out 1 year later to see how they will deal with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe whole process, I think, is a shambles. It is a shambles because the Minister, who usually rails about having a common-sense approach to everything, had the perfect mechanism before him. It was not the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill; it was the Law Commission\u2019s report. I do not blame the officials in the Chamber here today. They are under instruction from Cabinet, of which Mr Dunne is a member, to fulfil the directions of Cabinet. I think this Government, under John Key\u2019s leadership, has shown a pathetic crusade on drugs in this country. It is almost a light bulb issue, actually. It will be laughed at by the industry, and it will be laughed at, ultimately, by the manufacturers, suppliers, and importers of substances into this country. It will become a bit of a b\u00EAte noire for this Government in the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI cannot for the life of me understand why, when the ministry and the Minister had the Law Commission report, the Minister did not breathe through his nose, take the common-sense approach, and get drafted a proper, comprehensive approach to drug minimisation and drug harm in this country. He chose to ignore it. We now have this Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, which I think actually penalises the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe looked at the effect of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine when we were in Government, and Minister Dunne knows that. He was in Cabinet when we discussed, for goodness\u2019 sake, the project of pharmacists in Rotorua, who said they would remove from the shelves those precursors and put them at the back of the chemist shop. That was a wonderful project. They let people know who came in to buy more than two packets that they would fax around other pharmacies to see whether that same person had been in to get substances from their chemist shops. If they had, they refused to sell them to that person. That was a sensible approach; it was a sensible approach that was supported by the Medical Association, the primary health organisations, the pharmacists, and the district health boards. That project would have worked if this Government had backed it up with a comprehensive new law in respect of the misuse of drugs. However, we got this legislation, and then we got this long-awaited Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister, which I think will not work, because, simply, it still does not put the right onus of proof on the manufacturers of these drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI see that one of the members opposite has had to leave; she may be lucky enough to go and get her supply of medication without having to go to a pharmacist, and without having to go to a doctor for a prescription.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI absolutely agree with my colleagues who say that this will add another cost of living burden. National members may laugh at that. They fail to see that we are developing a society that is grossly inequality driven. For people to have to go to a doctor to get a prescription to then take to a pharmacist is a ridiculous cost to have\u2014both a cost burden on general practitioners and a cost burden on pharmacists. I think that is crazy. I do not think it is a practical approach, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis approach is from National, which railed against Labour\u2019s cannabis inquiry. National said that it would do something comprehensive when it got into Government\u2014absolutely comprehensive\u2014and with Minister Dunne, it would also be sensible. Well, this legislation is not sensible, and it is not comprehensive. It is a half-hearted attempt to look good about drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe in this Committee all agree that we have to do something about the industry suppliers, who are very, very clever\u2014very, very clever. It is interesting to see today that they have already said there are loopholes in this Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. The legislation gives them some wriggle room, and they will find the loopholes. How silly it is to be reactive in drug law and drug legislation! We will suffer for this until we enact all of the recommendations of the Law Commission report\u2014not just one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI will speak very briefly on Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 260, which I totally support. I think that clause 4, about the restriction of drug utensils, is absolutely ridiculous. If the Minister really knew how this industry worked, he would know that the people who use drugs will make their own utensils. They do not have to go and buy them. They know how to make something out of nothing. These people use teaspoons, bits of wire, and anything they have at hand. So we absolutely support the Supplementary Order Paper of Iain Lees-Galloway. The Minister\u2019s provision will do nothing to stop the impact of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine use in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe all loathe the drug P. Every member in this Committee loathes the drug, but we were sincerely looking forward to this Government coming up with a solution that would not bring us back to the House. I swear that when there is a change of Government we will be back, and we will fix this, as Labour is always being asked to do\u2014to fix up the messes of a National Government. We will do it properly, and we will do it comprehensively. We would never bring a Supplementary Order Paper of such substance to the Committee without first taking it out for consultation with the wider public of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI also agree with what Ruth Dyson was saying about this legislation. The Bill of Rights issue that Chris Finlayson commented on makes a bit of a nonsense, again, of the Government and its approach to presumption of supply. I would have thought that around the Cabinet table Ministers would listen to the Attorney-General on the Bill of Rights issues. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6b08c4901240d98579c4dcc92bec70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6b08c4901240d98579c4dcc92bec70\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E A certain naivety is creeping into some of the speeches we are hearing from members opposite. On the one hand they are saying to us not to rush but to take this sensibly\u2014to take a deliberative approach. On the other hand, they are saying that because these people are very cunning and will find every loophole imaginable, we should go out there and consult widely. There is an inconsistency of monumental proportions in that position. To suggest that because the people in the synthetic drug industry are cunning and will find loopholes wherever they can find them, we should have gone out and consulted them about how we developed this legislation is clearly absurd. I signalled at the second reading stage of this bill that an amendment would be coming. It would have been simply daft of me to go out there at that stage, trail it around the country, and get every synthetic drug manufacturer in the country to work out the way to get around it. How can Opposition members be so naive? That is the reality of the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe do face a serious problem, and I concur with them on that point. But we have to have solutions that work. To some extent Mr Grant Robertson was right when he said at the beginning that this would be a cat and mouse game. I said that yesterday myself, because that is the reality. But we have to have the tools to do the job, and this amendment will give us that capacity. It was interesting to watch the reaction of industry members, because they clearly were not expecting an amendment of this type. It will curtail their activities very, very strongly indeed, which is in line with the public sentiment, and in line with what we have been seeking to do right from the outset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me turn to the issue of the methamphetamine campaign. Again, the same naivety applies. We know that a substantial amount of the pseudoephedrine that comes into New Zealand to be used as a methamphetamine precursor comes in illegally across the border, through a whole range of subterfuges. We also know that a certain amount was being made available in the way that will now be made illegal by this bill: through pharmacies. It was logical to do two things. Firstly, it was logical to cut off that obvious chain of supply, and that is what this bill will do by bringing in the ban. Secondly, at the same time my colleagues the Minister of Customs and the Minister of Police have dramatically increased the resources available to their departments, and we are starting to see significant increases being made in the seizures of illegal product. The change in terms of the outlawing of pseudoephedrine in pharmacies allows us to concentrate more resource on the much more difficult area of targeting the illegal importations. That is entirely as it should be, in terms of the campaign against this particular item. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is worth reporting to the Committee that I went to the United Nations convention on drugs meeting in Vienna in March, and New Zealand was asked to give a presentation there on our methamphetamine campaign, because it is seen as world leading. Over 200 delegates from a range of nations, including President Obama\u2019s self-named drug tsar, and other leading officials like the president of the European Commission came to our session to learn what New Zealand is doing in that area, and to congratulate us on the initiatives we were taking. So on the one hand we are seen by the international community as having a cutting edge policy, but on the other hand we come back to this Chamber and are seen by the Opposition as being too slow, doing too little, and being too ineffectual. We cannot have it both ways. I would far rather take the view of the international experts\u2014the people who are seeking New Zealand\u2019s advice on how to deal with this issue\u2014than the view of the Opposition members who are here carping today. This bill makes substantive progress in both orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me make one other point before I sit down. Steve Chadwick, the member who just resumed her seat, said we should have enacted the Law Commission report. The Law Commission\u2019s report came out at the end of May. There are about 170 recommendations in it altogether, some of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220040cd36ff7941cc8a51d3136bec668e\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Excuses, excuses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227347159bb2f948b18940225fe8742583\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CExcuses\u201D, says the member\u2014\u201CAction Man\u201D from the Opposition\u2014\u201Cexcuses.\u201D I must say that having taken action is never a charge that would have been laid against the honourable member. There are 170 recommendations, with 45 in this particular area, and all of them are at a very high level that needs to be translated into practical decisions in the areas that the Government chooses to proceed with. In some areas it will not choose to proceed with the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations; that is fairly obvious. But the recommendations need to be worked through. We need to get the structures in place, we need to get the legislation drafted, and we need to be in a position to put a comprehensive package in place. I have said that from the day the report was tabled. But we cannot sit here and say in the interim we should therefore just do nothing\u2014that we should sit on our hands and wait until that more detailed work is completed and we have a coherent regime to bring to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E This amendment will put in place a regime that the more sane members of the Opposition acknowledge is sensible. They welcome it, I heard Mr Lees-Galloway say, in terms of curbing the incidence of synthetic cannabinoids on the market at the moment, and that is as it should be. The Committee faces a couple of choices. It can continue the game of \u201CWe will be tougher than you.\u201D, or vice versa. It could even take the line that Mr Hague and\u2014curiously\u2014Mrs Roy take, which is do nothing and simply let things go. I guess both members have never found a drug that they do not like. But the Committee has the opportunity tonight to put in place a very strong regime, and send a clear signal to an industry\u2014which everyone has described as disreputable\u2014that we disapprove of its activities. This amendment is comprehensive, and deliberately so. It would have been simply naive to go out there and wave it around to the contentment of the industry, long before putting it into the House. When this amendment is in place it will give mechanisms and powers that will enable speedy action to be taken, and if the cat and mouse game is what we are to play, then we are ready for it. Just as the industry players bring a new product on to the market, we will be there to gazette it and take it off. We will go for as long as it takes to get that pattern established, and then we will have the long-term legislation in place and a coherent, long-term solution to this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6e0273ec70d4c8b9881b63def091e27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6e0273ec70d4c8b9881b63def091e27\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E After all that anticipation, it is my pleasure to respond, I guess, straight after the contribution from the Minister in the chair, Associate Minister of Health Peter Dunne, although I thought he was slightly overzealous in his rebuttal of the Opposition\u2019s argument. We acknowledge the need to take action on the issue of synthetic drugs in particular, but our concern\u2014and I tell the Minister that it is fair for us to express that concern\u2014is whether the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill is the most appropriate way to deal with this particular industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe have some questions that I hope the Minister will address in his next response. First, as some of the members have already raised, was the possibility of reversing the onus feasible? I would be interested to hear, via the Minister and via officials, whether waiting for products to enter the market and then gazetting them and taking them off the shelves was the most efficient and best way to minimise harm that we could have opted for. Is there any scope or international precedent for reversing the onus before a product goes to market in this area? I think that is a legitimate question. It is unfair that the Minister has labelled some of our questions as naive rather than addressing them directly, so I would be interested in his response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI have just been reading through the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 258, and I think it is legitimate for the Opposition to ask whether there could have been more time for analysis of such a hefty Supplementary Order Paper. I am interested in whether the Minister could share with us, based on that Supplementary Order Paper, the kind of time frame. From the moment a new product goes to market, what kind of time frame might it take for a Minister, by notice in the Gazette, to specify a substance, preparation, mixture, or article as a temporary class drug? How long would a synthetic product be available on the market before we are able to get through that process? Have officials looked at the kind of harm that possibly would be done in the intervening period, and how much of that synthetic product could be purchased? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EFinally, I wonder whether the Minister could talk us through some of the criteria\u2014which could be deemed to be subjective; I am sure some more in-depth analysis probably has been done around the issue\u2014of whether a product poses a risk of harm to individuals or to society. What kinds of criteria are used here? Is it broad enough to ensure that we are picking up all of the products that Parliament intends we pick up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that this is a genuine concern for us. I walk through the area in which I live, and there are a small handful of retailers who sell Kronic. I make a point every time I see it of going in and asking them why they sell it, and whether they perceive that it is beneficial to the community\u2014which they operate in, which they live in, and in which they do their business\u2014for them to be peddling such a product. I have to acknowledge I get a very coy response every time. One shop owner promised me: \u201CMa\u2019am, I will take the product off by next week.\u201D, before I said I would come in and do my own spot check again. But this is the extent to which we are going as individuals who have concerns about these products, in lieu of being able to react quickly. I acknowledge that the Minister is trying to do that. I question only whether there is another way that we could have responded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe Minister also mentioned the fact that New Zealand is held in high regard internationally for the way in which we deal with these issues. I would still say, though, that, in comparison more broadly with the drug debate, very few countries are currently in step with what the UN Global Commission on Drug Policy has recommended. I have to say that the commission\u2019s paper really broached some subjects that the New Zealand Law Commission has broached as well. To date, many countries have stood back from, and have been very reluctant to adopt, a full harm-minimisation approach. I would be really interested to hear the Minister\u2019s view on some of that international discussion that has gone on at a UN level, because, from my perspective, New Zealand is quite out of step with what that commission has recommended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIn my first contribution on this bill I told the House that many years ago I sat in on a presentation given by a Hawaiian expert on the issue of methamphetamine\u2014the drug that has become a scourge in New Zealand. It was clear, at that point, that this was a very different drug we were dealing with, primarily because of the ability for it to be manufactured domestically. So often in New Zealand we perhaps have been saved by our borders, but not in the case of methamphetamine. We are suffering as a consequence. Of course, the public looks to Parliament to respond to that scourge, and our question has to be whether we have done all that we could do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EOne thing that the Labour Opposition has been asking for is some of the evidence around the various measures around tools, in particular, but also evidence on whether requesting that people get a general practitioner prescription in order to get drugs with pseudoephedrine from a pharmacist will have the full impact on this industry that Parliament would intend. It seems clear from the Health Committee report, which I read with some interest, that the Ministry of Health, in particular, was not able to quantify the knock-on effect of this policy. We were not able to financially estimate what kind of cost it would have for consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that of course we want to do all we can around methamphetamine, but also we must take it upon ourselves to take an evidence-based approach. Surely that is the expectation of the public as well: not only that we do as much as we can, but that we base it all on evidence. I am yet to be convinced from what I have seen come out of the select committee that enough work was done on this particular area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELet us not underestimate the impact that it will have on consumers. I appreciate the remarks that were made by Dr Paul Hutchison on the alternatives that exist. Of course, I unfortunately am able only to rely on my own anecdotal evidence of having found some of the replacements for pseudoephedrine to be mere placebos, in my mind. I do not think there is anything that quite does the job of a pseudoephedrine. My concern is that when we are trying to take a preventative approach, and at the same time trying to ensure that as many people as possible do not have to go through the cost of visiting a general practitioner for something that is usually easily manageable, we have not weighed up the burden of cost in that regard, and that is most unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELooking at the issue of evidence but also coupling that with the new modern notion\u2014when it comes to drug law\u2014of harm minimisation, I would have been incredibly interested to see that Parliament probably would say that in terms of harm to society, the cost of methamphetamine, of course, is high, and the cost of alcohol is high. But let us look, in terms of the relative spend in society on police time and on police resources, at how much is spent on methamphetamine versus, say, cannabis. How many people are imprisoned in our country for minor cannabis offences versus methamphetamine offences? What resource are we spending on the drugs that do the most harm to our communities, relative to others? I just throw that up as something that we should be having more debate over. Parliament probably spends a relatively larger amount of time on the issues that cause the greatest harm\u2014alcohol and methamphetamine\u2014but is that reflected in the way that we are operating on a day-to-day basis via our law enforcement and via our imprisonment regimes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think it is a legitimate question to ask, and that ultimately is why the UN Global Commission on Drug Policy has started questioning whether our emphasis is in the right areas. If we are going to look at international evidence, I think we should start with those trends. If we are going to be world leading, that is the kind of response we need to be giving. It is bold, and the community will need reassurance that we are still doing all of this in the best interest of our communities, but at the moment we have to acknowledge that we are failing, and we are failing abysmally. That is not to say that we cannot continue to use the tools that we have and do as much as we can. But, again, it needs to be evidence-based, and on this particular area, on these two issues contained in Part 1\u2014the issue of tools and utensils, and requiring a prescription in order to purchase pseudoephedrine\u2014I am not convinced these are the big hitters that we need in order to crack the methamphetamine issue in New Zealand, which ultimately must be the aim of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00229aaa20f4fad2490a9256baf15df681cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aaa20f4fad2490a9256baf15df681cf\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00222f6a1405482d4a8d8f14dee3d5694c59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f6a1405482d4a8d8f14dee3d5694c59\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have two questions that I would like to put to the Minister in the chair, Associate Minister of Health the Hon Peter Dunne\u2014if the Minister has finished his texting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333e51777a1647b783f89a819d181299\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9af6aa4d6ab44c4a3b275e8298f64d7\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right. The first is a very serious question. There was a case that went to the Supreme Court concerning the presumption in the law as it stands, which is that if a person has a certain amount of cannabis or any particular drug, they are deemed to be dealing, not just consuming. The Supreme Court looked at this issue and in the end chose not to strike down the legislation, but gave very careful consideration to it. The court\u2019s fault with the legislation was that there was a presumption in it of someone being guilty of a charge, and not a presumption of innocence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis is, I think, a very serious issue. As I understand the legislation that is being put forward here, if people have a certain amount of material, that will be presumed to be for personal supply, but if it is over a certain amount, there will be a presumption of dealing and that is the charge that people will get. I want to know whether the Minister and the people who drafted this legislation have taken into account that Supreme Court decision, which was a split decision, and whether they have fixed what the Supreme Court saw as the deficiencies in the legislation passed by this Parliament. I would like the Minister to give me an explanation about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second issue is a question about Supplementary Order Paper 258. I have just picked up a copy of the Supplementary Order Paper, and I see that it amends new section 4D(4) to state: \u201CPossession by a person of 56 grams or more in total of any products (including cigarettes), or any drug forms (including flakes, tablets, or capsules),\u201D. The general rule of legal interpretation is that if a number of items are specified, the list is deemed by the law to be complete. That is what has been interpreted. I see one of the officials shaking their head, but I would ask the Minister whether it is possible that if someone had a powder or liquid form, they would be able to say they were exempted from the scope of this legislation. By any definition, a powder is different from a flake, and a liquid is different from a solid form. The Minister may not know this, but a number of drugs, such as methamphetamines and pseudoephedrines, are usually in a crystal form, but the drug can be used and transported in a liquid form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI am just concerned that the legislation we have here is very narrow in its definition of \u201Cflakes, tablets, or capsules\u201D, and does not cover powder and liquids. I would like to be assured that the matters that I have raised have been considered by the officials, and I would like the Minister to advise me that the issues contained in them have been dealt with, so that if a person is caught in possession of a liquid, that will not defeat the purposes of the legislation because the Minister has not specified that it covers liquids. I would also think that a powder is different from a flake. A flake is a chip or a chunk, and a powder is quite differently defined in the dictionary\u2014I have taken time to check that. I would like the Minister to respond to that issue and say yes or no to the question of whether the recent Supreme Court decision has been taken into account, and yes or no to the question of whether the drug comes in the form of a liquid or powder has been taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaeff69c40484040b73992ad50517e2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaeff69c40484040b73992ad50517e2d\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I wondered whether the Minister in the chair, the Associate Minister of Health Peter Dunne, would respond to the Hon Rick Barker\u2019s questions, but maybe he needs a little time, and I am prepared to help him take that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI come to my own Supplementary Order Paper 260 on clause 4, but before I do that I will respond to Heather Roy and briefly set out why Labour will oppose her Supplementary Order Paper 261. Although, to be fair, she is absolutely right in saying that I have expressed the view in this Chamber that prohibition has its limitations, I think what Heather Roy is proposing will, first of all, not change the status quo very much. Secondly, it will allow for the continued commercialisation, I suppose, of these products. Even if one has concerns about the effectiveness of prohibition as a mechanism of controlling drugs, it is also true that the over-commercialisation of substances is of equal concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EHeather Roy has proposed that these drugs can be sold only to people over the age of 18. In fact, the status quo is that most of these substances already have an R18 restriction on them. That does not come about because they are psychoactive substances; it comes about because the vast majority of them can be smoked, and therefore they fall under the purview of the Smoke-free Environments Act and have an R18 restriction on them. For the overwhelming bulk\u2014and probably just about all the substances that we are really focusing on here\u2014the notion of introducing an R18 restriction makes no difference to the current situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWhat it does not do, of course, is get these products out of dairies and out of sight. A concern for everyone, I suppose, in this Chamber\u2014except for the ACT Party, perhaps\u2014is that substances such as Kronic are heavily marketed at the point of sale. When we go into a dairy or some liquor stores these days we see a lot of that advertising. There is a tobacconist in my electorate in Palmerston North whose outside wall now seems to be completely covered in Kronic advertising, so it is still well and truly on display. We know for a fact that even though these substances are already R18, young people under the age of 18 are able to get their hands on them. There is no real effect of that proposal, and still there is the issue of the advertising and commercialisation of the substance. As a number of us have said, although we do not think that what the Minister is suggesting is ideal or that the process is ideal, it is a useful stopgap measure in the interim whilst we get this issue sorted out and come up with something more permanent and sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EOn the issue of pipes and other utensils, and the amendment that I have put up to have clause 4 removed, this is a matter of harm minimisation. We are supporting the measures in this bill that support the minimisation of harm. Some of them, we argue, will do very little to minimise harm, but they will do something; others we support because we think they will do more to minimise harm. But further restricting access to drug utensils will do absolutely nothing to minimise harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI refer to the comments made by Nicky Wagner, who compared this measure to the recent ban on point-of-sale tobacco advertising. Of course, what we did not do when we got rid of tobacco advertising was get rid of the ability to display tobacco smoking pipes, for instance. In fact, when I put up my own bill to deal with the tobacco display issue, the Attorney-General said that getting rid of tobacco smoking utensils was too great a contravention of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act to be allowed. So the consistent approach\u2014and Nicky Wagner sought a consistent approach\u2014is not to get rid of the ability to display these drug utensils. Nicky Wagner made the argument that it somehow glamorises drug use. But, actually, these utensils offer a mechanism by which the harm\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb113559974d4d4282dbdc9a4136672d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb113559974d4d4282dbdc9a4136672d\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022849a6f5c643547dca6b6c3580f1c35c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000460\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 261 in the name of the Hon Heather Roy be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221fbf451911a54cc9b86cbdcbac0cedda\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000461\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 260 in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e323fd950abb4f4e9a47bfcecfb866a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000462\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 43, Noes 76.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000463\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 258 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f334902e115a456db0ae7dec6a60f4e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; ACT New Zealand 4; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022be42e472e4db4978a45d72145561f299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be42e472e4db4978a45d72145561f299\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Deputy Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to change the Green Party vote in respect of Mr Lees-Galloway\u2019s amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 260 to nine votes in favour, and the Hon Chris Carter\u2019s vote to one vote in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d850dabda24ffe947ad2d3919514a1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The corrected vote on Iain Lees-Galloway\u2019s amendment is Ayes 53 and Noes 66. The amendment is not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022869b42a57b8c493aafb3d6cf83201dd7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; ACT New Zealand 4; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000466\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.09 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225bbde263edc480fb722690308bdbb3b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4352d63bda042c9a1851188ae80241d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4352d63bda042c9a1851188ae80241d\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill contains clauses 12 and 13. These clauses deal with amendments to the 2005 amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act. Essentially, clauses 12 and 13 amend section 31 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 2005 by repealing \u201CParagraph (b)(v) of the definition of substance\u201D so that hazardous substances as defined in section 2(1) of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 are no longer excluded from the definition of \u201Csubstance\u201D for the purposes of the 2005 amendment Act. That essentially means that at the current time a substance cannot fall under both the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, but this change allows substances to be able to come under the purview of both Acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI suppose, to be honest, this was not a part of the bill that attracted an awful lot of attention from submitters to the Health Committee. In fact, only three of the submitters at the select committee referred to clause 13, and nobody referred to clause 12. One was in favour of clause 13 and two were opposed. Those who were opposed to clause 13 were concerned that this provision would give the Environmental Risk Management Authority the ability to regulate substances listed in the schedules of the Misuse of Drugs Act. Submitters were, I suppose, concerned that the Environmental Risk Management Authority lacks expertise in this area, and would apply unduly strict criteria with high barriers to entry, which would mean that no legal products would meet the requirements to be approved as being safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI suppose that is very much part of the debate we have been having about how to actually determine that a product is safe, and how new substances are to be determined to be safe. However, that is not actually what this change does. Clause 13 does not propose to give the Environmental Risk Management Authority the ability to regulate psychoactive substances. Rather, the clause seeks to remove the exclusion that a hazardous substance cannot also be a restricted substance under the Misuse of Drugs Act. I suppose, given that that is the case, in fact what is actually occurring is probably in line with what the submitters would have liked to see. Essentially, the provision just smoothes the path for substances to be able to come under the purview of both of these Acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EUnder the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act a substance is \u201Cany element, defined mixture of elements, compounds, or defined mixture of compounds, either naturally occurring or produced synthetically, or any mixtures thereof:\u201D, and I suppose that is exactly what Kronic, Dream, Spice, and the other synthetic cannabis products are. They are products that are made up of both synthetic and naturally occurring substances. From that point of view, that is the sort of thing that some submitters were concerned about: that in trying to establish whether something like Kronic is actually safe to come to market, if it had fallen under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, then that might not have been the most appropriate way to determine the safety of such a substance. Of course, that is not what clause 13 does. The submitters can rest assured that that is not actually how the system will work. In fact, we do not know exactly how the system will work at the moment, but that is for the Minister to work on, hopefully with some speed, to come up with a solution to that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa72b99de417404086d8f523436731d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa72b99de417404086d8f523436731d0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the member who has just resumed his seat, Iain Lees-Galloway. I am tempted to say his explanation of what has actually happened is far too charitable. He tried to imply a degree of rationality in the processes that led to this change. In fact, what we are doing is correcting a cock-up; let us put it as bluntly as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act was passed a change was made that meant that, in effect, a substance designated as a hazardous substance under the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation could thenceforth not be designated as a restricted substance under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Some arguments were advanced at the time that things should be dealt with under their own particular bits of legislation. I have been back to have a look at the Health Committee\u2019s report from 2005. It had in mind keeping things like ordinary commercial or household products that are also psychoactive, such as butane gas, from being further brought under the control of the restricted substances framework. It overlooked, of course, that the consequence of being very specific in that area effectively made the restricted substances regime unworkable. So, we had a situation in which we have had the capacity to designate substances as restricted substances for some time, but until this amendment is passed it has actually not been possible to do so, given the almost countervailing provisions of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlthough I appreciate the very lucid explanation given by the member who spoke earlier, and his charity in trying to apply some logic to the position that had developed, I think it is fair to say this is a technical amendment to clear up a mistake that was made way back in 2005. The mistake was not actually seen at that time as significant, because the rationale was actually about a different category of products. It was only when we started to look at a range of substances like the Kronics of this world, for instance, that we realised there was actually a problem, and that needs to be corrected. That is what this amendment does. It is very straightforward, and, as I say, I do not think it need delay the Committee for any great period of time. I appreciate and acknowledge the member\u2019s very kind summary of the situation when he could have been far more vicious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002270268acf051d42999a027f051669e748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270268acf051d42999a027f051669e748\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, very much for being so frank about the motivation behind this part. I do not want to take up a hell of a lot of time in terms of speaking to Part 2 of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, but for those who are tuning in\u2014and I think there actually will be quite a few people interested in this bill, given the relevance of the announcement made yesterday\u2014there are some clarifications we want to seek. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWhile they are being sought, we thought it might be useful just to reinforce what my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway has said, and just to lay out exactly what Part 2 pertains to. It amends the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 2005 in just two technical clauses. Clause 13 repeals the definition of \u201Csubstance\u201D in section 31 of the 2005 Act, which claims that a substance \u201C(a) means any mixture, preparation, or article that is manufactured for the primary purpose of being administered, ingested, inhaled, or injected in order to induce a psychoactive response; but (b) does not include any \u2026 (v) hazardous substance (as defined in section 2(1) of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996):\u201D. Referring to that Act, under section 2(1), a hazardous substance means \u201Cunless expressly provided otherwise by regulations, any substance\u2014(a) with 1 or more of the following intrinsic properties: (i) explosiveness: (ii) flammability: (iii) a capacity to oxidise: (iv) corrosiveness: (v) toxicity (including chronic toxicity): (vi) ecotoxicity,\u201D. I am no scientist, as I have pointed out before in the debate on the Royal Society of New Zealand, but I know that that is definitely one of the clauses in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI guess when we are talking about substances that have those properties and we want to correct \u201Ca cock-up\u201D\u2014a direct quote from the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6fa9b22b43e4a0685a9b2d93995eb26\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: A very technical term!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b65c26113146138609e566cb680f56\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very technical term and maybe we will come back to it tomorrow when we debate the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill again. But in looking at Part 2, and at the Minister correcting this legislation, I guess that when we are dealing with those properties this is a positive move\u2014which we will support, as we are supporting this bill in its entirety and the Supplementary Order Paper the Minister has put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00228543e8c4f7434745b78fa69e7c3a340c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228543e8c4f7434745b78fa69e7c3a340c\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to make a comment. I have mentioned this before in the Chamber, but I would like to reiterate it. I was speaking to an old member of Parliament\u2014sorry, a member of Parliament who had been here a while ago\u2014who is older than Mr Chair Robertson, of course, and we were talking about the Committee stage. I bemoaned the fact that during the Committee stage what was happening was that Labour members were putting a lot of questions out there. I felt that the vast majority were relevant to the Minister in the chair, and the Minister in the chair at the time was just sitting there reading, and not even taking any notice whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EBut do I note that whenever Associate Minister of Health the Hon Peter Dunne\u2014and I would like to commend him on this\u2014is sitting in the chair, whether it is on a tax bill or this sort of health bill, if Labour members ask questions or make comments, he always stands up and addresses the questions or comments. Some of them are rather banal, I must admit, but he always addresses them, and I think that is in the true spirit of the parliamentary process. It just shows that the Minister has been around for a while. He respects the House, even if sometimes we are in major disagreement with regard to some of the policies that he advocates. I would like to thank the Minister for doing that, because I think it is in the true spirit of what the Committee stage is about\u2014absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs everyone said, in rather unparliamentary terms\u2014I am surprised, Mr Chair, being the stickler that you are for process, that you have not pulled up members for the use of the word \u201Ccock-up\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef552009b9a447df9640115f15cbb623\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Be careful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a51fbb402ef4925ba11e2a66f097259\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister used it, and, as the Minister said, the clause seeks to remove the exclusion that a hazardous substance cannot also be a restricted substance. When we get to bills a lot of these issues are about semantics, and when we go through the Committee stage on a lot of bills, I suspect that those who are listening, or the person who is listening, must sit there and go: \u201CGoodness me! This really is semantics.\u201D But when it comes to law, it really has to be quite tight, and these sorts of bills and these sorts of amendments are required just to make sure the law gets it right, because it has to provide direction, first, to the public, second, to the judiciary, and, third, to the industry or business that is dealing in this sort of carry-on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs the Minister mentioned\u2014and it has been very topical recently; I think Iain Lees-Galloway has talked about this at great length, as has Kris Faafoi\u2014we are faced with numerous toxic substances these days, and people will do whatever they can to alter their mind\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0fbd0c0c98477bb421382dd8ffaf74\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Ecotoxic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022399603a979bf4c839a9d8b4a480cad15\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good word\u2014\u201Cecotoxic\u201D. I think it is important that we do send a very clear message to the people of New Zealand, to the youth of New Zealand, but also to the industry that Parliament will not tolerate this sort of behaviour. We need to send the message that it will not tolerate this sort of industry, and I suppose this bill is a step in closing a lot of it down. Am I right, I ask Mr Lees-Galloway? This bill is just a first step. There is much more work to be done; of that there is no doubt. It is a shame that it was not done a little earlier, and it is a shame that the Minister did not act a little faster. That is a conversation for another day, so maybe it will be in a third reading speech\u2014or it might have already been had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe are supporting this bill, but I would like to thank the Minister very much for getting up and clarifying a lot of this stuff. We support this bill. As I said, it does not go far enough, but it is a start. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 259 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 13 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225575b275e3284931bd55d2f6daf6dd3d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; ACT New Zealand 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000490\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b05d40be03564ed99af53e51c0ea26aa\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022144271a2ba2345b2b33fc20335b1c252\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bc344b9c70f444eb67e8f8f4d32df7a\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000494\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 259 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000495\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000496\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022393363d1f08c44088e19d71cb6761b46\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000498\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d13dda2c34f144e48b21de94a5381e11\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224adf9a0623d3457c9dc4e5386ca7db93\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b93d487f9f14c948cfb8a66306123dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b93d487f9f14c948cfb8a66306123dd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We now move to the Appropriation (2011/12 Estimates) Bill. The Standing Orders provide for 8 hours of debate on the estimates. Each member may have no more than two speeches of 5 minutes on each vote. The estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. As each vote is reached, a question will be put that the vote stand part. Should it be the wish of the Committee, a question may be proposed on two or more related votes for the purpose of debating them together. At the conclusion of the 8 hours of debate, any remaining votes and the remaining provisions of the bill will be put as one question. The Government indicates which votes are available for debate. I understand all votes are available and will be called in order of seniority of Ministers, commencing with the Speaker\u2019s votes. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the votes is available on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022002a654455d147c1ab614937ce557bfe\u0022\u003EVote Audit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226a0a40449c824d7da3ca657b4da648d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a0a40449c824d7da3ca657b4da648d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to open this section of the debate in the Committee stage of the Appropriations (2011/12 Estimates) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is very important at this juncture that this Committee and our country understand the crossroads presented to us by the estimates that are in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419774b3099d45aab146a1bced7c13e7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. There may be a misunderstanding. The question is Vote Audit. This is Vote Audit. Is the member speaking to Vote Audit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcd8c231fbb4a6f810993396efa0897\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EVote agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274b732807dc94637b8f7a002b61903ec\u0022\u003EVote Office of the Clerk agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022009432defe654400b8983bbf8e1c069a\u0022\u003EVote Ombudsmen agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db2efb0f2fa94082bc5da2c7551741f5\u0022\u003EVote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3bec2178a0e48d5a5fcf48cdebb8e72\u0022\u003EVote Parliamentary Service agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbcfd7f6266c4cf9ae3c80d96d40d013\u0022\u003EVote Communications Security and Intelligence agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f1b2d4adc0e46208b0dfa7257255dab\u0022\u003EVote Ministerial Services agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a396722568947948141372f362cd22a\u0022\u003EVote Prime Minister and Cabinet agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cca9a83b4f5e4ed8968eeb6b1d180bfd\u0022\u003EVote Security Intelligence agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225292bc93e1dd4fe4b8dc3fd433ab0bac\u0022\u003EVote Tourism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00225c439d659182465d8981f491e6b346b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c439d659182465d8981f491e6b346b6\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Chair, Mr Ross Robertson, for that kind invitation to speak. I take a call on Vote Tourism because one of the developments of this Government was that the Prime Minister chose to take on the portfolio of tourism. There were a lot of other options he could have had. He could have chosen science and technology, or whatever, but he chose tourism. Of course, one of the reasons that he chose tourism is that it is such an important export industry for our country. In fact, over the last decade it was our biggest export earner, ahead of even dairy, even though year on year now dairy has got ahead of tourism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe reason why tourism is such a big export earner, of course, is built on our \u201Cclean, green\u201D brand. The brand has been \u201C100 % Pure New Zealand\u201D; the latest version is \u201C100 % Pure You\u201D, and the brand is built on the fact that New Zealand has a fantastic natural environment. In fact, if we look at the advertisements that are running currently, whether they are online or elsewhere, they show amazing pictures of New Zealand\u2019s natural environment. In particular, they show amazing pictures of New Zealand rivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe truth is that this Government has not been looking after our rivers. Our rivers deteriorated very significantly under the course of the last Government due to dairying intensification\u2014completely out of control dairying intensification. When this new Government came in, it made a commitment to do something about that. Unfortunately, it has not done anything about it. In fact, the board of inquiry that was set up by the previous Government to consider the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management came back with a very strong proposal that would have begun the process of cleaning up our rivers. This current Government decided to water down that proposal. The National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management that this Government finally adopted had its teeth pulled out of it, so that it could not begin to clean up our rivers and lakes. This is a major problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EAt the time the Green Party made this argument very strongly and since then just recently the Cawthron Institute\u2014a very reputable independent institute of which the Minister for the Environment is apparently a director\u2014came out with a report that stated that the very same Minister for the Environment\u2019s national policy statement would not clean up our rivers in the foreseeable future. The report stated that the national policy statement, as it had been weakened by the Minister for the Environment and this Government, would not clean up our rivers and would not protect the foundation of our tourism industry, which is our \u201Cclean, green\u201D reputation, which is built on the \u201Cclean, green\u201D reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the majority of our lowland rivers are now polluted. Depending on which report one reads, some reports state that in the order of 90 percent of our lowland pastoral streams are polluted. Some of the reports from the Ministry for the Environment suggest about half of our rivers that are monitored at various times are unsafe for swimming because of the amount of faeces in them. This has created a fundamental challenge to one of our most important export industries. It is a challenge that the Minister of Tourism, the Prime Minister, should have taken on and championed. Instead, the Prime Minister has stood back while our rivers have got worse and while one of the best tools we have, the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, got watered down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Minister of Tourism, the Prime Minister, is actively promoting $400 million worth of new subsidies to the irrigation industry in order to lead to hundreds of thousands of new hectares of intensive dairying. If we read every science report about this issue, we see that they are all absolutely clear that it is intensive agriculture, and particularly dairying, that has led to the degradation of our river systems. Yet this is a Minister of Tourism who is not acting to protect these rivers, which are the foundation of the tourism industry in our country, one of our most important export sectors. Although we have what I thought would be a hope for tourism when the Prime Minister took on the tourism portfolio, in practice the Minister of Tourism, the Prime Minister, has not done his job to protect the industry, which is fundamentally reliant on the natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn fact, we have a Minister of Tourism who is actively promoting the destruction of our natural environment by a dramatic expansion of the very industry that every scientific report tells us is leading to a degradation of our rivers. There will be those people who say that we can mitigate the effects. Actually, we cannot mitigate the effect of another million cows on New Zealand. If we read the science, which has to be the foundation of how we make decisions about this, we see that it is very clear: another million cows and more intensive agriculture in our country will lead to further degradation of our river systems. It was very disappointing for me to read the Minister\u2019s statement on science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ba93410dab5244fd8bc84032300ec0f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Vote Tourism be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EVote Tourism agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022894a47b1c83340b0aed73cf10ad7c1bc\u0022\u003EVote Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002252d03a4f7bf9429382d0fb03ce5fcd4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252d03a4f7bf9429382d0fb03ce5fcd4d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you once again for the opportunity to speak in the Committee stage of the Appropriation (2011/12 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf0f56b4a83477193f16dab149d9693\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Give us the Audit speech, David.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502d5ea82b3743a3939312d48317a509\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Foss. It is an important debate, and I want to raise for the Committee and with the public the issue of the finance estimates. Encapsulated in those estimates is the fiscal strategy that this Government has embarked upon\u2014one that will lead the country down a dead-end street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe crossroads that the country faces are neatly summarised by the choice that has been put before us: on the one hand to sell down New Zealand\u2019s precious State assets, and on the other hand to rebalance the tax system in favour of taxing capital, broadening the tax base, filling in an amazing loophole, and giving 98 percent of New Zealanders a net cut in income tax. We can do that under Labour\u2019s plan while fully paying to keep New Zealand\u2019s precious assets in public hands, paying fiscal debt down to zero earlier than under the Government\u2019s Budget, and running a fiscal surplus in the same year as the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis election is a choice between Labour\u2019s fair tax policy, which will give every New Zealand family a tax cut of $1,000 a year and will close the gaping hole in our tax system, or National\u2019s plan to sell off our profitable assets to foreigners. Labour has a credible, responsible, and bold plan for the economy, and that is in stark contrast with National\u2019s agenda of privatisation and stagnation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is a wonder to me that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Finance, after 9 years in Opposition, when faced with one of the most serious financial crises since the Second World War, in his first Budget managed to achieve precisely nothing other than to give a tax cut to the highest-income earners and to forestall contributions to New Zealand superannuation. In the second Budget, equally lacking in imagination, the lightning strike was to give an even bigger tax cut to upper-income earners, put up GST on everybody else, and do precisely nothing to address the underlying structural problems in the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn this 2011-12 Budget we have the third opportunity for the Minister of Finance to actually show New Zealanders where the economic strategy lies\u2014and what did we get? Again, we got a vacuum of ideas other than the tried and failed recipe of selling down New Zealand\u2019s State assets as a short-term panacea to put some cash flow in the bank while they mortgage future generations. I say mortgage future generations because the numbers do not add up. The dividend yield on the energy assets is over 7 percent. The Crown cost of capital is only 6 percent. The total shareholder return on the package is 17 percent. Yet this Government proposes to sell them, transferring the future value of those dividend streams to what will inevitably be major foreign corporate buyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESome people will benefit\u2014yes, some people do benefit. The investment bankers, the accountants, and the lawyers who put the deals together stand to pocket more than a year\u2019s worth of dividends from the assets that are being sold down. Over $350 million, according to Treasury estimates, could be lost in terms of ticket clipping and middlemen as the birthright of mums and dads is sold down the river. You know, it is not just bad because it is bad policy; it is bad because it apparently represents the sum total of National\u2019s thinking about how to guide this economy out of the difficult situation we find ourselves in because of the global financial crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EDebt is a problem. All New Zealanders understand that. Most understand that it is not just fiscal debt but private debt, as well. But they want to see fiscal debt\u2014Government debt\u2014responsibly managed. That is one reason why Labour\u2019s plan for a capital gains tax has been so widely hailed by the commentators\u2014because it achieves simultaneously a number of important objectives. It pays down our fiscal debt to zero faster than under the estimates being debated today. It allows us to fully pay for the assets to replace the dividends\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d6cc25680943e4a46ead67e5db9eab\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d0761efb2a49ebab320a15747820f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it does. I do not think that Mr English has yet seen a copy of the underlying spreadsheet, so he is in no position to tell us what is in it. I give the Committee my undertaking as an honourable member of this House that our Budget plan fully replaces the capital that will be drawn down by this Government from State-owned enterprise sales. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt does that while giving 98 percent of New Zealanders a tax cut on their income tax. Ninety-eight percent earn below $150,000, the inflation-indexed threshold for the new top tax rate of 39c, and 98 percent of New Zealanders will be net beneficiaries from the plan to make the first $5,000 of all earned income tax-free. The first $5,000 of all income will be tax-free. That is a very important measure at a time when New Zealand families are suffering, when food prices are rocketing up 7.1 percent, I think, across general food prices the last time I looked, and when wages are up 1.9 percent. But, of course, the rich list is up 20 percent in the last year. Does that not say it all? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EToday in the House Mr Key leapt to his feet and wielded a social development report that said that inequality was getting smaller. What he forgot to mention was the conclusion that it was Labour\u2019s policies of Working for Families that had started to turn that boat round. It was very nice of the Prime Minister to hail the success of Labour\u2019s policies when last in Government. It was very kind of him, but it would have been a trifle more honest if he had said that, in fact, our policies, not the current Government\u2019s, had led to that result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo here we have it. On the one hand, there is a Government that is devoid of vision and devoid of strategy. It has fallen back on the old mantra of cutting one\u2019s way out of a hole and selling the future of our children down the river to realise some cash and to pay the piper for the next 6 months or year. New Zealanders are not that stupid. They know that selling the family silver is a recipe for disaster, and that is why the polls show that an overwhelming majority prefer Labour\u2019s capital gains tax plan to asset sales as a means of getting through these tough times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de47ed7090da4e8c9834d62990263dc5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5699adc4ca4840bbee55ba06075875\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: They may not like it, but that is the truth\u2014that is the truth. Present New Zealanders with a choice between asset sales and tax reform, and they will choose tax reform. They want to fill in the loophole that lets the rich list get a 20 percent income increase while the poor get a 1.9 percent increase. They do not think that is fair, and we do not think that is fair. We know the Government has no recipe for lifting this economy out of the doldrums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002299db8f6fec424e13a00fbedd60358eec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299db8f6fec424e13a00fbedd60358eec\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Usually the member David Cunliffe says something I can agree with because it is correct, but in almost 10 minutes he actually did not say anything that was correct. The reason we know Labour\u2019s numbers do not add up is that we have looked at Labour\u2019s numbers. Actually, there is no such thing as a choice between capital gains and the proceeds of asset sales, because when we look at Labour\u2019s published table, which it put together by itself, we see that all the capital gains revenue\u2014if we were to believe it would collect any\u2014is used up to pay for its other extravagant promises. That is not because we say so but because the table that Labour has published says so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhen we go through the booklet, we see that it does not show an offset to asset sales, at all. It leaves a $7 billion hole. So Labour has to explain how it will pay for new schools, because a capital gains tax is not there. It is being used\u2014if it raises any revenue, and that is a different argument altogether\u2014as part of a silly little tax package that achieves not much in spite of a lot of pain and effort. That is what it does. There is a $7 billion hole at least. If Labour claims that it will reduce debt at the speed these estimates show, then where will it get the money from to do that? It will not get the money from the capital gains tax; it will have to borrow more. I do not know if that is what Huey and Dewey have told Labour\u2019s caucus, but that is the case. If there is a secret spreadsheet, then we had better see it, because it is not in the published numbers. The published numbers simply do not add up, because the capital gains tax revenue would be used to pay for the other extravagant promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBut, of course, none of that matters, because no one is taking any notice. Most New Zealanders know what we know: if we want to grow this economy, we need controlled Government spending and sensible taxes that incentivise investment and exports, and we need less debt. The other package is higher Government spending, more new taxes, and a lot more debt. Well, that will grow something; it will grow the Government. That is what it will do\u2014it will grow the Government. That is what Labour always does. That is what Labour did the whole time it was in Government. But, you see, the New Zealand public knows that that was the problem, not the solution. The solution to our economy is not a bigger Government taxing more, spending more, and borrowing more for the kind of useless projects that Labour specialised in. The solution is about the Government taxing less, spending less, borrowing less, and helping the rest of the country to grow the economy rather than using the rest of the country to grow the Government. Until Labour members get up and apologise to the public for those policies, and until they agree that the public was right to throw them out, no one will listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510765b5705244b48202449171d6ee80\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Shane agrees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228000115b0e9642409ed928786faa7d6d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Shane agrees\u2014of course he agrees! He is just waiting until the Labour front bench fails yet again to grasp the basic political truths that until Labour apologises, and until it figures out how to reconnect with the new, aspirational New Zealand and not an old, dependent New Zealand, then Labour will not get anywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat is what is so sensible about these estimates. The Opposition might not understand what they are about, but New Zealand does. Rob Muldoon once said that New Zealanders would not understand a deficit if they tripped over it. He was wrong\u2014and not just on that, I might say. He was wrong, because New Zealanders do understand what is needed in this economy, and they will get an opportunity in a few months to make a choice about whether to vote for the fact that they are right, or that they are wrong and the Opposition is right. I am picking that they will probably back themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc654910790545f4837d38469271cb96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc654910790545f4837d38469271cb96\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Hon Bill English\u2019s problem is that he has painted himself into a corner. He has ruled out a land tax and he has ruled out a capital gains tax, yet he has written a Budget that by his own projections has New Zealand returning to a current account deficit of over 6 percent, a current account deficit that grows every year from here on, and a current account deficit being funded by increasing foreign debt for New Zealand every year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr English\u2019s own Budget projection shows that if he and his allies in the National Party are re-elected for another term, then, at the end of 6 years of their Government, New Zealand gets poorer, then the next year New Zealand gets poorer, and then the next year after that New Zealanders get poorer still, because the structural problems that bedevil the New Zealand economy have not been solved by the Government\u2019s tinkering. It has done nothing substantial. It has not pulled the levers that need to be pulled to redirect into the productive sector the precious investment capital that is currently going into the speculative sector at the expense of the productive export sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECraig Elliffe is a former partner of Chapman Tripp, a former tax partner of KPMG, and now an academic and a successful businessman in his own right. He says that we need a capital gains tax because \u201CTo the extent to which you have tax policies that are distortionary on the economic levers and contributors to society,\u201D it is wrong. He asks \u201Chow sensible is it to have property investment four or five times the size of the sharemarket producing no tax revenue.\u201D That is one of the comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have had another comment from the Herald on Sunday, criticising National at the same time as saying that we were right to be looking at a capital gains tax. The editorial states: \u201Capart from borrowing money and talking up a questionable programme of asset sales, National is showing no signs of a plan to get us out of the mess we\u2019re in.\u201D It is right. The Dominion Post has said something similar. The National Business Review has said that there is a need to have a tax on capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Manufacturers and Exporters Association says \u201Cthe eradication of the capital gains tax harbour will help to lift productive investment. A more balanced tax system will see investment flow to the most intrinsically profitable areas of the economy, rather than those that are tax advantaged.\u201D The Productive Economy Council says something similar: \u201CA Capital Gains Tax sends the right signals for investors and means those choosing to take the path of unproductive property investment will have to pay their fair share of tax. While fairness in tax is good the real long term benefit is the chance to get more of our limited capital invested in making New Zealand more, not less, competitive.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have heard others like Gareth Morgan say something similar. National is on the wrong side of this argument and it should admit it. The Government has $48 million in these estimates going towards policy advice from Treasury. What did Treasury say after the last time the Government spent $48 million? It said introduce a capital gains tax to make the economy stronger, as well as to make the tax system fairer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will deal with Mr English\u2019s assertion of tax and spend. We always knew National members would come back to their original mantra. Tax and spend is the accusation they make against us. The problem is that they are wrong. It is not true. They say that our revenue projections are wrong. Well, our revenue projections are all out there, and the only one that has taken a flick at them other than Mr English is his colleague Mr Joyce, and it has not cut through because the biggest line item is the revenue from the capital gains tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETreasury\u2019s estimate of the long-term revenue from a capital gains tax excluding the family home was $4.8 billion per annum. We remodelled that through our consultants, Business and Economic Research Ltd, and they cut that back by $2 billion per annum at the maturity of the scheme. So it is raising $2.8 billion per annum once it is a mature scheme, rather than $4.8 billion. The sensitivities in the Business and Economic Research Ltd analysis show that it could be $1 billion per annum more than that, but we have taken the conservative course and assumed the lower figure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe new progressive top tax rate raises money; so does the loss ring-fencing; so do other anti-avoidance measures; so does a moderate amount of revenue from the agricultural sector from emission trading scheme revenues. This allows us to fund the tax-free zone that David Cunliffe has already indicated\u2014the first $5,000 of income will be tax-free for every person. That is whether one is on a low income or a high income, and whether one is a superannuitant or someone in paid work. In addition, GST comes off fresh fruit and vegetables and there is a research and development tax credit that is funded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThese measures are all properly costed. The Government\u2019s claims to the contrary are not credible. They are not credible. Over the period shown in our table\u2014which has been publicly released, despite Mr English\u2019s comments intended to misrepresent it\u2014our package will reduce debt by $7.7 billion more than the Government would. In other words, our debt track is better than the Government\u2019s debt track. Are people surprised by that? Well, they should not be. They should not be, because when we were last in Government we reduced Government debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhen Labour was in Government we reduced net Government debt to zero. We reduced gross Government debt to 17 percent. We did it every time, with the National Opposition at the time opposing the Budget surpluses that did it. National members said: \u201CGive tax cuts.\u201D Well, we are now in a $16.7 billion deficit this year as a consequence, in part, of Mr English\u2019s inability to properly cost his income tax package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr English\u2019s prior income tax cuts resulted in an increase of the New Zealand deficit of over $1 billion. Over $1 billion over that period was paid out over 4 years of tax cuts, in addition to the revenue that was collected from the switch. So he has created a fiscal hole. He has also done nothing to cure the underlying imbalances in our economy, which are caused, in part, by the signal that people get. They make additional returns from their rental investment because of the tax bias in favour of residential property. There is $200 billion of investment and very little tax is paid from that area. That is why Treasury favours this change, that is why the IMF favours it, that is why the OECD favours it, and that is why Australia has it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has said that a capital gains tax would put a dagger through the heart of the economy. Since the Australian economy has had a capital gains tax, the value of its sharemarket has increased seventeen-fold. Over the same period New Zealand\u2019s sharemarket has increased in value three-fold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFar from it putting a dagger through the heart of the economy, it is one of the things that we need in order to get that precious investment capital going into the right sectors of the economy, so that we can grow our exports. Instead of the parlous future that the National Government has planned for us\u2014where our net investment position goes to negative 85 percent of GDP by about 2015, right down there towards Greece, Portugal, Hungary, and Iceland\u2014New Zealand would go in the opposite direction, because we would have investment in jobs and investment in the productive export sector. We would start earning our way in the world. That is why the Government is on the wrong side of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMr English should just accept that his Treasury officials are right and that his Reserve Bank officials are right. One of the reasons that they like it is that over time it leads to lower interest rates, to the benefit of not just the export sector but everyone in New Zealand who has a mortgage. They get lower interest rates if there is a capital gains tax. The Savings Working Group, which the Government set up, told it that half of the last property bubble would have been avoided if we had had a capital gains tax. It would have meant that the Reserve Bank did not have to pull as hard on the interest rate lever to curb inflation. We would have lower rates of inflation, there would be less pressure on the exchange rate, and therefore, again, our exporters would benefit, as would the people who work in those industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EInstead we have Mr Foss and the other Neanderthals on the economic front in National saying that Labour is on the wrong side of this debate, when we are with every OECD country other than Turkey and Switzerland\u2014Switzerland being a tax haven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022557ffbdd18f14b2196abe82c1021f2d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022557ffbdd18f14b2196abe82c1021f2d2\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to take a call tonight on Vote Finance in this year\u2019s estimates debate. I reflect on the fact that for the last couple of weeks now the world has been absolutely gripped watching what can happen when a country\u2019s debt gets out of control. For the first time, the big-spending economy of the US has started to realise that if it just keeps spending and spending and having its cake and eating it too, eventually it has to pay the piper\u2014eventually it has to pay the piper. The most important thing New Zealand has to do to guarantee our prosperity is to get our debt and our spending under control. We cannot afford to have the biggest chunk of hard-working New Zealand taxpayers\u2019 money funding debt servicing to international money lenders. That would be the single biggest threat to the prosperity of every family in New Zealand. That is why this Government has spent the past 3 years getting rid of the economic chaos that the Labour Government left us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELet us look at it. When Michael Cullen opened the books in 2008 he announced that his legacy to the people of New Zealand was never-ending deficits\u2014never-ending deficits. The Labour Government put this country into effective recession 4 years before the rest of the world. It presided over the all but death of the manufacturing and export sector. The fact that that Government drove the real New Zealand economy to the brink of collapse means we are now in the position we are. They bloated the Public Service. The only thing they know how to do is to take money out of people\u2019s pockets and spend it on growing Government, increasing handouts, and increasing welfare. Borrowing, spending; borrowing, spending\u2014that is all they know. They have gone back to core principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EBut this Government understands that the best thing we can do is to get a handle on Government spending and support the real, productive tradable sector to lead New Zealand out of this mire. We are seeing that\u2014we are seeing that. Over the last 3 years we have seen the plan of Minister English and Prime Minister Key lead this country back into growth. The economy, in the worst of times, is now showing real signs of recovery. We have growth forecasts of 3 percent per annum for the next 4 years, and 170,000 new jobs, thanks to the economic management of this Government. We are seeing that in the worst of economic times and amidst having to pay for the Christchurch earthquake\u2014we are paying $8.8 billion for Christchurch; that money is in the bank, it is funded. We are growing the economy, we are getting better services out of our public sector, we are providing better outcomes for New Zealand, we are letting New Zealanders keep their money, and we are incentivising hard work. We are not incentivising people to sit with their hands out, and we are not incentivising the Government sector to grow. We are saying to people that if they are working, we are behind them; if they are aspirational for their future, we are backing them. We will encourage savings, we will encourage business, we will encourage growth, and we will get debt under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe have turned the never-ending deficits of Michael Cullen and the Labour Government into a return to surplus in 3 years\u2014even after paying for Christchurch, and even after the worst economic conditions that the world has ever seen. Our tax changes were a significant part of that. We changed the incentive away from the debt-fuelled consumption orgy that Labour presided over and returned it to incentivising production, savings, and investment. In a very simple sense, that is why New Zealanders know that National is the party to manage the economy, that is why they are backing John Key, and that is why they do not want to hear a bar from Messrs Cunliffe, Parker, and Goff. They know that National is the party that will provide them with growth and prosperity, and that will build them a brighter future. They know that all they can expect from Labour is tax, borrow, and spend. I think Labour must be the only political party in the world that can come up with a whole new tax that puts us further in debt. How does one do that? How does one have a new tax that puts us more in debt? It is unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225acd8cfdce95448db56c05d497910553\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. I say to members on my left that I refer to Speakers\u2019 ruling 61/5 of Speaker Barnard and Speaker Statham. I say that Ms Adams is making a hard-hitting speech and some interjections can be expected, but not so many as to drown out a speaker. The Chairman will not allow that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd4b7df6a40443139c7864bb3dfedaed\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Of course, the facts speak for themselves. The New Zealand public knows it has a choice between sensible, prudent economic management that will grow the productive sector, provide jobs, raise incomes, and give them the brighter future they deserve, and the tax and spend policies of Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c98420e8b71b451c9ba9ae2b9964d4e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c98420e8b71b451c9ba9ae2b9964d4e9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If there was ever an example of a situation where volume and mock rage were inversely related to content, we have seen it from that member from the South Island, Amy Adams. We had a contribution from someone who chaired the Finance and Expenditure Committee prior to joining the racing industry, where he has been gelded and is devoid now of intellectual content. I think that he ought to come back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and improve the current quality of its chairperson\u2019s skills, as revealed by what was a very tawdry speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about here is an ideological tract. Come the end of the year Kiwis have a very clear choice: more poverty, more unemployment, ongoing suffering, wretched lifestyles, the urban poor and the rural poor, and a tidy, very handsome caste of economic beneficiaries, otherwise known as the confr\u00E8res from overseas, the merchant banking community, who will be the primary beneficiaries of the asset privatisation exercise. The vast bulk of young New Zealand families are trying to go to Australia, because their circumstances are worsening day after day\u2014ask the schoolteachers. Let National members ask Fonterra why it has to provide more and more food for free breakfasts in decile 1 schools, and then come back and tell this Committee and tell Kiwis that we are on the upward slope. No, that is not what the major corporates are saying. They are digging into their own pockets, and so they should; after all, they have been handsomely rewarded by the disproportionately unfair polices of the current Government to the vast majority of Kiwis. I tell Mr English to ask those Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAt the end of the year the asset sales give-away is a brilliant public policy debate for us to have. I accept that on the other side the National members genuinely believe that by privatising part of these assets, we will open up a new array of investment opportunities. But I ask who the beneficiaries of these investment opportunities will be. Those members are trying every trick in the book. Of course, Treasury has unravelled their key argument. Treasury has said there cannot be a successful privatisation unless there is substantial investment from overseas. Yet those members are going back into their own communities and quietly telling Kiwis that this is a good idea, and that they will enjoy some sort of Thatcher-like psychic experience\u2014that we will suddenly become a prosperous shareholding democracy. The tiny number of Kiwis who will have that opportunity\u2014once again, the disproportionate beneficiaries of the wretched tax give-away that Mr English introduced several years ago\u2014just shows that Kiwis, as a consequence of the paucity of our own savings, do not want to acquiesce. They do not want to see the current Government preside over the dilution of the slender wealth that we still have left in our country. That is why that is a brilliant issue to fight this election on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is the predictable misinformation as to our tax reform policy. The key point is that the average Kiwi will be $100 better off per week as a consequence of these policies. Kiwis will respond to that type of incentive. They will not respond to the puffery. They will not respond to the rhetoric from the Prime Minister and his friends in their increasingly expensive cars when they drive past and see the bleak, broken windows in the tangata whenua part of town and in the Pasifika part of town, and see the vast majority of Kiwis who are heading towards \u201CStrugglers\u2019 Gully\u201D. Somehow that statement of accuracy is regarded as non-aspirational and non-patriotic. There are members who are in charge of their offices and are close to the communities they purport to represent, but that does not, unfortunately, include Mr Bennett. He is where he belongs, but that is another matter. We knew at the beginning of this debate that we would come under some fairly significant attacks, but the facts are clear: as a consequence of this tax reform package, $100 per week and a host of other initiatives would go into the pockets of Kiwis. I desire to ensure that there is money available in the kitty for families to deal with the issues regarding their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut families are telling us that this Budget has failed the thousands of\u2014and, indeed, in my case, 16,000\u2014young M\u0101ori. Thirty percent of M\u0101ori between the ages of 15 and 25 are unemployed, with no opportunity to go on with any meaningful training. Those are the issues that will motivate Kiwis at the end of the year, not all the hollow, empty promises that will benefit a narrow caste of economic beneficiaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022780699ab0a104f529501eeb4d1af077b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780699ab0a104f529501eeb4d1af077b\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to speak on Vote Finance. For those listening, that was Shane Jones. Shane is the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee1ab326b4ce4a61b0584f7750a2ba7f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will refer to the member by his full name or his title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223013424e8b5d4df6ad55f753d16c8c3c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Jones is the Labour spokesperson on finance at this point in time. When he gets into trouble he always goes on about the vulnerable people\u2014that is Labour Party rhetoric. It tries to build fear into people. It will not actually give them inspiration, or give them aspiration; it tries to put people down and to create fear tactics. That is Labour Party policy, that is how it has always been, and that is how it always will be. The public have moved on from that; the public have moved on. They want aspiration, and they want to know what the future is. They do not want to be put down by the Labour Party, they do not want to be seen as being vulnerable, and the last thing they need is people like Shane Jones telling them what should be done for their lives going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ELet us look at what Labour did for this economy when it was in Government. Labour created a recession before the rest of the world; it put New Zealand into recession at that time. It put the wrong incentives into our economy. The tradable sector was not growing and the economy was going downhill big time. What did Labour also do? It made a variety of promises just to win votes, promises that were for policies that now New Zealanders are paying for\u2014policies that did not deliver economic results and did not deliver the social cohesion and delivery of services that New Zealanders would have wanted. All Labour did was to create a situation of more debt, more Government, and less economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ELet us compare that with what has happened under the National Government in just 2\u00BD years. In the most difficult of times, in a recession, in a time when we have had to rebuild Christchurch, what have we delivered for this country? We have delivered low interest rates. Interest rates have been some of the lowest, so that people can go out there and make investment decisions, grow businesses, buy houses, and do what they need to do to have a home for their families. There are good growth rates coming through this year\u2014growth rates in the first quarter are beyond expectation\u2014and we are looking at good growth rates over the next few quarters going into next year. That is a very, very strong position for an economy in these most difficult of times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe have balanced the need to have major infrastructural investment. We can see that in the broadband investment, the roading investment, and the Transpower investment. We are building the infrastructure of New Zealand so that we can grow the economy. We have rebuilt Christchurch with a plan that will go out there and deliver a stronger, more successful city going forward. We have changed the tax incentives so people know that they need to get a good education and work hard, and that they will get some rewards for that\u2014and then they will invest that money through their savings in the economy, further grow the economy, and produce even more economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat is the game plan, and it is a game plan that has worked in 2\u00BD years of the toughest economic times. It is a game plan that is ready to deliver New Zealanders strong economic growth going forward, and the future prosperity that they all deserve and seek. The public understand that game plan, and they support it. They want that game plan, and they will get it at the coming election. If we compare that with Labour\u2019s game plan we see that Labour\u2019s game plan is to borrow more money and put the country in more debt. Labour is not worried about repaying debt within a short period of time. It is not worried about getting the New Zealand economy in a position where it can grow and deliver things. It wants to borrow more and more and more. That is what the Labour Party wants to do. What does the Labour Party also want to do? Tax you more, tax you more, and tax you more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f22e726e61ee499193be79e5f6944008\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3808d51c7934b4faef9a4cddebb1456\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Labour wants to borrow more and tax more. That is its plan. It is a great plan, is it not? One can see how it will work. What will it do? Interest rates will go up. What will that do to economic growth? It will kill economic growth. What happens if we tax our people more, through higher tax rates, which is what Labour is looking at with the capital gains tax? It will kill economic growth. There is no incentive for New Zealanders to go out there and build a stronger economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s plan is to borrow more. That will lead to higher interest rates and less economic growth. Labour\u2019s plan is to tax more, and that will lead to less growth and less potential for the New Zealand economy. What else does Labour want to do? It wants to have a bigger Government\u2014a bigger Government that knows more and can spend more, and do it in a way that it agrees with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022993cbb3ee43047f190a7988ffa42e190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993cbb3ee43047f190a7988ffa42e190\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We have just been lectured on debt and taxation by two South Island farmers and one Waikato dairy farmer. The farming sector of the National Party is running economic policy\u2014the farming sector of the National Party is running economic policy\u2014and, boy, do these guys know about debt. The farming sector has $40 billion worth of debt. The farming sector has about one-third of New Zealand\u2019s total debt, and those members are lecturing us about debt. How rich is that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELet us not talk about taxes; let us not talk about taxes. I say to Mr English, I say to Mrs Adams, and I say to Mr Bennett: get off the farm and go and talk to some real people. I tell them to go and talk to some real New Zealanders who do not have a farm that they can go back to. Mr English talked about numbers that did not add up. That is pretty rich from this finance Minister. When the Inland Revenue Department, the Government\u2019s tax collecting agency, came in with figures that were $4 billion less than Treasury\u2019s figures\u2014$4 billion less in revenue than Treasury\u2019s figures\u2014who did he go with? He went with Treasury\u2019s figures. But, then again, he did not go with Treasury advice when it wanted a capital gains tax\u2014and he has the nerve to criticise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis year the people of New Zealand have a very clear choice: they can sell State assets\u2014assets built over generations of sweat, toil, tears, and taxpayer money\u2014or they can have a reform of the tax system and keep our State assets. Mr Bennett, Mrs Adams, and Mr English are all farmers and do not want a reform of our tax system. They would rather sell State assets and keep a tax system that is unfair. All and sundry agree that tax reform is necessary; a tax reform that will bring us into alignment with 90 percent of countries in the OECD. This is tax reform for the sake of fairness, to reduce inequality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI quote from an article by Anthony Hubbard in the Sunday Star-Times. He said: \u201CThe National-led government finds no great problem with inequality. If it did, its policies would be different.\u201D A far better approach is that of Warren Buffett, the richest of them all. He asked to pay more taxes, not less. This is partly just a question of fairness\u2014that word fairness. Warren Buffett, the second-richest man in the world, says \u201CIf you\u2019re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.\u201D It is also a matter of enlightened self-interest. He knew that in the long run he and his class would benefit from living in a fairer society. The rich do better when everyone does better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that borrowing $380 million a week is not sustainable. A $17 billion Government deficit is not sustainable, but selling State assets is not a plan. Selling State assets is not the way forward. It will not allow us to own our own future. The only way forward is to have fair tax reform, where everyone pays their fair share, and where all New Zealanders get to keep their State assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis tax will affect only about 8 percent of New Zealanders, so 92 percent of New Zealanders, who are currently paying their fair share, will not be affected. They will not be affected, so why are there cries of inequality? Only 8 percent will be affected. This tax will be paid only on income\u2014not on the family home, not on personal assets, but only on income. That is fair. Let me give an example. If someone earns a salary of $50,000 that person pays $8,000 in tax. But if the person has a capital gain of $50,000, they pay no tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EVote agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e25b18432ed74171b36f75aac62255b4\u0022\u003EVote Canterbury Earthquake Recovery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5a4374763004556bbdba45859a3d57f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5a4374763004556bbdba45859a3d57f\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E We acknowledge in these estimates, of course, that the department Mr Brownlee heads as Minister, the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, is only some months old. Therefore, it presents some difficulties for us in attempting, if you will, to measure its performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EJust for a moment, and given that we are almost at the 12-month anniversary of the September quake, I will review some of the issues that have arisen. I shall be generous to the Government from the kick-off, and say that I think most Cantabrians would acknowledge that the initial Government response following the September quake was pretty good. We have to acknowledge that. Resources were put into play, and the volunteer community, and the Government agencies to a large extent, I think, exceeded expectations in many cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIndeed, if we come forward directly to the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, I know that my colleagues in Canterbury, and all my colleagues on this side of the Chamber, supported the Minister\u2019s appointment of Roger Sutton as the chief executive. Indeed, I think it is fair to say that had we been in the seats across the aisle we probably would have looked to appoint Mr Sutton, too. I have not seen, certainly in my days here, universal support for a Government, or even a local government, appointment in the way there was and is for Mr Sutton. We all wish him well. I do not think that any commentator, politician, or anyone else criticised the appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThat being said, the acid test is about the performance of the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, given, firstly, that its Minister, Mr Brownlee, has wartime powers. He has more extensive powers probably than any Minister has had in the history of our Parliament in terms of legislative capacity. Secondly, there is a $5.5 billion budget that this Parliament has provided that Minister, and, thirdly, that Minister has the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, his own dedicated department. So to quote the Minister\u2019s words, and as he is fond of saying, we look forward to him \u201Cgetting on with it\u201D, because some critical issues are now facing our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere have been questions raised about home heating, but I will leave it to my colleague Brendon Burns to touch on that. There have been delays as we have moved through winter\u2014it has been a pretty cold winter, especially last week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere are some substantive issues of basic human relations in terms of the quality of communication that people have received. I have to say that leaks had come out before the big announcement was made, when the sort of Nuremburg-type rally was held as the zoning was announced some months ago. The media had that information days before, and a sort of uncontrolled leak materialised out of nowhere that shocked people. They were shocked even in my patch, where the council was days away from breaking ground, and where morale was high. Spirits were high, but 2 days before Mr Brownlee\u2019s announcement many of the people of Kairaki Beach were literally sitting with their insurers with new plans confirming them for their new houses. They assumed there may well have been a delay but they had not had any advice\u2014and that included the Mayor of Waimakariri and the chief executive of the Waimakariri District Council\u2014apart from an hour or so beforehand, that their community would, effectively, be toast. Those are basic things, I think, on which the Minister needs to shape up. I am sure his department, with Roger Sutton at the helm, a person who has demonstrated openness and transparency, will shape up and that may well change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe difficulty and concern we have is that now Mr Sutton is under the thumb, the constraints, of the Public Service, and that was evident when he came to Kairaki Beach. He was asked whether he would provide the geotechnical information to those local people who were distraught. He answered that, yes, he would, and that he saw no reason why he should not. But over subsequent weeks and days, that has been wound back. Now we know of course that that information will not be provided until all the other zoning in Canterbury is confirmed in approximately\u2014I do not know\u20146 months, whenever, the never-never. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo, the acid test for the performance of this department, and the acid test by which the people of Canterbury will judge Mr Brownlee, his Government, and the department, is on two promises that were made and were made repeatedly. The first was made after the September quake, and I commend the Prime Minister for it. He said that he would put a stake in the ground, and he said that no one in Canterbury would be worse off as a result of that quake. Mr Brownlee confirmed that before the select committee some weeks ago. He confirmed that. It is Mr Brownlee who, including up until I think 15 June, has repeatedly said that his priority is that equity will be preserved by those property owners. Those are the two acid tests as we move forward to unravelling and getting the details about the offer document that the Government is yet to provide to those people in the red zone. People have quoted them back to me time and time again, even at those public meetings where Ms Wilkinson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d43b96d72474486cbbeb5dcd6f3781ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d43b96d72474486cbbeb5dcd6f3781ea\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on Vote Canterbury Earthquake Recovery, but it was a bit of a tragedy to have to curtail my colleague the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, who was just warming up to the subject. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI will begin by acknowledging the three significant days of quakes we have had in Canterbury over the last 12 months, in September, February, and June. I particularly acknowledge the tragic loss that so many of our citizens have endured: loss of lives, loss of limbs, loss of homes, and loss of jobs, and sometimes all four within one family. We have a strength and resilience in Canterbury that we are very proud of, but I think that some people have had to endure a lot more than other people really understand. So, I pay tribute to the people who have gone through that, and who have started rebuilding their lives again. We have had horrendously hard times behind us, and I think we will have hard times ahead of us, as well. But, our communities are strong, our communities are passionate, and they are certainly committed to a recovery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI think it is important to put on the record that the key to a successful recovery\u2014and I suppose this could be taken as advice to the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery or as general comment, but I am sure he will understand it and not need reminding about it\u2014is harnessing the strength and the passion of our communities and turning that into a genuine contribution to what our region, our city, and our suburbs will look and feel like, and what we will do in them, in the future. If people see the devastation, but feel that they have had their voices heard during the recovery of our city, particularly on what happens in our communities, they will have had an opportunity to say \u201CWe might have lost that, but actually it wasn\u2019t as good as we would have liked it anyway. We want to do something better, and here are the sparks that will set us alight again.\u201D Those people will remain committed to our region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI am concerned that at the moment the only thing that is holding many people in our city is the lack of a payout from the Earthquake Commission or their insurance company. Once they get that payout they might just say \u201CThanks very much. I am out of here.\u201D We do not want to lose our skilled people from our region. We need them now more than ever, so ensuring they are part of the recovery is also a very important part of keeping them there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe critical part to harnessing that passion and strength and turning it into a contribution is to give people information. Sometimes it is really hard\u2014I have heard the Minister explain the dilemma and I agree with him\u2014to pick the right time for sharing information. Often we will feel, and of course it may be true, that as soon as we tell the people what information we know, they will want to know the answer to a question for which we do not have the answer. Well, it is my strongly held view that we should do that anyway. We should tell people what we know, as we know it. If they ask a question that we do not have the answer to, we should say that we do not know the answer to that yet. They may get a little frustrated, but they will not feel as disempowered as many currently do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMany people do not have information about what happened to their land. They do not understand the process that caused the liquefaction and the silt to destroy their suburb. They do not understand the land movement. They do not understand the rockfall risk or what happened to our cliffs. There are a whole lot of questions that are unanswered for people. We could provide that information, in my view, in a much clearer way than we have to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere will be questions that the Minister does not have answers for, yet. I think that is entirely acceptable. We cannot tell people what we do not know. I really urge the Minister to share as much as possible with everyone in our shared community of Canterbury the information that he does have. People feel stronger for knowing what is happening in their area. Information is empowering, but knowing that somebody else has information that is not shared with everyone is very frustrating and disempowering. We have the opportunity now to share that information with people, to give them the power that information provides. We have the opportunity to harness that passion and that commitment to our communities, which is so evident in things week in, week out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d71fc669972f4f44a3c0589634b56bc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d71fc669972f4f44a3c0589634b56bc2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that the Government had a laudable aim when it committed to preserving homeowners\u2019 equity in our badly damaged suburbs, but given that that has not been possible with the offer the Government has made, I really want the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery, to say that that is the case\u2014that the Government tried to preserve equity but has not been able to do so for a large number of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason it is important for the Government to actually say that is that opinion polls have been run on the status of the Government\u2019s offer. I know that Government members are all circulating little questionnaires in our Christchurch electorates at the moment to see what people think of the Government\u2019s offer. I am worried about that because, of course, the constituents that I am dealing with, who are in the red zone and who are having to face up to the reality of what that offer may mean for them, are concerned that people are commenting on an offer, believing it to be one thing when, in fact, they know it to be something quite different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe majority of homeowners, certainly the ones whom I have spoken to in the red zone and who will be receiving the offer, do not believe that this preserves equity for them at all. The ones who have expressed anxiety about what they will do in the face of the offer that they are soon to receive are virtually being told by the Government that they are ungrateful for feeling the way they do about what is generally perceived to be a fair, balanced, and reasonable offer\u2014which is the language the Government members have used in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EFor some people, that is the case. Members on this side absolutely accept that, on average, property prices fell by 5 percent from 2007 to 2010 and that therefore the property valuations as established in 2007 as a general rule should be more than people could have sold their property for on 3 September 2010. But, unfortunately, when one talks about averages across a country, that does not always produce a very good result for individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet me just talk about the four groups of people who are in this category. The first group are people who bought their homes when the market value exceeded the 2007 rating valuation. We have a number of constituents, I know, in our electorates who now will end up in a situation, if they accept the Government offer, of negative equity. They will owe the bank more than they will get from the Government offer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second group are homeowners who cannot buy property without borrowing, and who cannot afford to service a mortgage or who do not meet lending criteria. I could buy another house with the Government offer, and I am probably in a position to accept the whole of the Government offer. Obviously, I will wait till I see it in writing, but I will probably do that. I have put on record my conflict of interest in that regard. I do fit within this category. But imagine if I were an 85-year-old widow in a freehold home that I had lived in all my life and raised my kids in, and the property is worth only $250,000. What can I buy for $250,000? Not much, I am afraid. That person will not be able to get a mortgage. So that is the second group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe third group are homeowners whose land component of their 2007 rating valuation does not represent the market value of an unimproved section and/or is insufficient to buy an equivalent-sized section in the current market. I think that in some suburbs more than others\u2014and Bexley is obviously one of those\u2014the land values are very low, even though the overall 2007 capital value may be better than the 2010 market value would have been for the home. I think that is because the land value calculation is not an exact science. It is worked out in the context of the capital value\u2014the capital value, of course, looking at that general market value\u2014but the land had a property built on it at the time. I think it is very hard to identify it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI have had put to me wildly different land values within my electorate. There was a $60,000 difference between three properties that front on to the River Avon in the Avondale suburb. They have quite different valuations; $60,000 is the difference in the three properties across that range. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe fourth category are homeowners whose properties have not been so damaged as to warrant a rebuild and whose insurers are willing to fund only the cost of repairs. Those people are left in a situation where they will find themselves out of a home at the end of this arrangement, and not in a position to restore anything like the equity that they had in their property before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u0022474addf5100246f0be5f811f6c96f8be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022474addf5100246f0be5f811f6c96f8be\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Vote Canterbury Earthquake Recovery has been put forward by this Government in response to the worst-ever natural disaster this country has seen in our history, and I hope in all of the history of this House. The Minister in the chair, the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery, has done a wonderful job in the work done to date. We have heard from members on the other side of the Chamber some of the compliments that have been given to Mr Brownlee as the Minister in charge of the Canterbury earthquake recovery; I will reiterate some of those. If there has been a time for a wonderful man to step forward, it is now, and if we wanted a person to stand in front of the people of Canterbury and deliver as a Canterbury son, then it is Mr Brownlee. He is a former builder, and someone who understands the issues that the people of Canterbury are dealing with. One of the wonderful things we have seen after the three major disasters that we have experienced\u2014not just one but three\u2014is that Mr Brownlee has stood steadfast on every single one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EWe have seen the Prime Minister come down to Christchurch and stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Canterbury, including Mayor Bob Parker, and outline to them that the Government will step in behind them and that we will rebuild our great, wonderful city in the South Island. I think that is a wonderful thing. We have a fund that has been put aside, in this estimates debate, that talks about $5.5 billion. That is a drop in the bucket, but we need a lot of support and help from the good people of New Zealand to rebuild our city. The Minister in the chair has steadfastly stood up for the people of Canterbury, whether they come from the eastern suburbs or the western suburbs, from the rich houses or the poor houses. That man has stood behind them and put forward many, many options for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EWe saw just today how some of this money will be spent. Today we have had to put in place a situation where half of people\u2019s legal fees will be paid for, and that is worth up to $750 for those people in the affected red zone. That is a good step forward. We have seen the issue put forward of allowing upfront deposits for those people who take up the option of the Government offer they will see in a few weeks. Those are the sorts of things, when we go out and talk to the community, that we hear that people want. This Government listens to what the people want, and it is using some of that $5.5 billion wisely to deliver some of the things that people really want and think are important. This is not about side issues. It is not about media hype and the rubbish that some Opposition members have put forward. It is about someone who is solid and reliable, like the Minister, Mr Brownlee, putting forward those measures that people need to get back on their feet and get our city into recovery again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThe people of Canterbury are showing that themselves: 76 percent of people in a recent Christchurch Press poll stated that the Government was doing a good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb06187d3cff47eca90eb0a9128d99c9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How many are in the red zone? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e061a439872946e3bb8a4f78247034cd\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Cosgrove over there that the Opposition would love to have those sorts of numbers supporting their party, because 76 percent of the public are happy with what the Government is doing. We think that is a good step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI will talk in terms of what is actually happening in Canterbury. There was a comment from the Opposition that 20,000, 30,000, or even 50,000 people in Christchurch would be unemployed. What have we seen? Nothing like that! We heard from the Opposition that something like 50,000 to 100,000 people would leave our city. What have we seen? Nothing like that, because we have leaders in John Key and Gerry Brownlee who are willing to put forward options for those people to move ahead and commit to their lives in Canterbury for the next 1, 2, 10, or 20 years. Christchurch has had more jobs in the last 3 months than have Auckland and Wellington combined. Members opposite sat there and told people in this Chamber that Canterbury would have a massive increase in unemployment. We have seen absolutely the reverse. In the Christchurch Press in the weekend there were 17 pages of job advertisements. The member opposite who is smirking might be looking at some of those pages, because he might need a job in a couple of months\u2019 time. I think that on the latest polling about half a dozen of the people on the other side of the Chamber might need a job in Christchurch. We will give it to them: there are 17 pages of jobs in the Christchurch Press, and plenty of work. I say to Mr Cosgrove that he might have to work a bit harder. He might not be used to hard work and getting his hands a bit dirty, but who knows? There are plenty of things he can do. Mr Brownlee needs a lot of help in the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, and so does Roger Sutton, who is doing a good job. Mr Cosgrove might be gainfully employed in some way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThis Parliament has put forward its confidence in Mr Brownlee and the Prime Minister, in this vote, to rebuild our fair city\u2014the city that I was born in, as were many generations of my family. I think that one day in 10 or 20 years\u2019 time, when those members opposite probably will not be here, we will stand back and say what a great job Gerry Brownlee and Prime Minister John Key did at the time of the worst natural disaster in New Zealand\u2019s history. They will build statues to this man, recognising how great and wonderful it is to have the heritage, grandeur, and greatness of Canterbury restored. We will sit back and say what a wonderful time that was. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022d23d3734056741b59a77563f91b49d21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d23d3734056741b59a77563f91b49d21\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I know this is an unusual situation, and I know that Mr Brownlee is too modest to do it himself, but I seek leave for an extension of time of that speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225743e8d3c9fd4e78b6d08e5da4ed1596\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can take a call if he wishes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f17c30f0cc9440f97141ce44f464d2b\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have sought leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb38802dff7402f993c7635a7036ebc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot seek leave for somebody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002208b6b93dfc754eb8ab73f52673d43826\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208b6b93dfc754eb8ab73f52673d43826\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I caution the member opposite, Aaron Gilmore, about talking up the benefits of recovery too much, because the experience internationally is that we should take a little time to see just how things do pan out. One example of that came yesterday with the Electoral Commission figures for my seat of Christchurch Central, which suggested\u2014and we are still trying to absolutely verify these figures\u2014that 11,800 people had left Christchurch Central and relocated and re-enrolled in other seats. Although 9,700 people have come into the electorate, we can see the enormous impact that the earthquakes, which started about 11 months ago this week, have had on life in our city. When we talk about jobs in our city, let us not forget that as of 3 September last year 56,000 people were employed within the four avenues of Christchurch; I would be surprised if we have as many as half that number at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe, of course, want the rebuild to happen, we want the jobs to come back, and we know that the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority is the entity that is charged with that work. We unanimously supported the appointment of Roger Sutton as the chief executive. It is pretty unusual for anybody to take a $200,000 salary cut to take on a job in New Zealand\u2014or anywhere in the world, I suspect\u2014but we believe that he is the best man for the job. I think it is perhaps the hardest job in New Zealand at the moment, and probably in a long, long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI will comment on a few things that are still popping up for me as an electorate MP, and one of them comes back to heating, as my colleague Clayton Cosgrove mentioned. I would like to ask the Minister to give us some reassurance about the heating programme continuing, because there have been signals that there was a first phase to get heating installed prior to the real onset of winter in May but that things may have been buttoning back since. As recently as Sunday I was doorknocking in the Avonside area, and I came across a man who had lost two chimneys and was still waiting for a heater. I would like some assurance from the Minister that in fact the heating programme is continuing at the speed, scale, and pace that it was before, because many thousands of people in Christchurch are still in the grip of what is still a pretty severe winter, and they do not have proper, appropriate heating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI also ask the Minister, the Hon Gerry Brownlee, to comment on the temporary accommodation assistance that is available to people in the red zone. We need some clarity here. I was approached by a constituent, Sue Skeet, who is now living in Timaru. Her accommodation, as provided by her insurance policy, runs out this Friday, I say to the Minister, and she has been anxiously emailing the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority and trying to get some assurance. The indications are that there may be an interim measure for her, but I think that many other people in the red zone would like to know whether they are eligible for temporary accommodation. Support seems to be precluded by the initial wording of what was stated when the package was announced on 18 February, because it was then envisaged that it would be for people who were returning to their homes. Of course, people in the red zone are not returning to their homes, and they need some clarity as to what accommodation support will be available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI also raise with the Minister the issue about the future of any remaining heritage buildings in the central business district of Christchurch. The Minister\u2019s initial comments back in February that we might end up with only four heritage sites in Christchurch Central\u2019s central city area sparked me and some others to form a group called Interests in Conserving the Identity of Christchurch, or ICONIC, which put together a list of 40 \u201Cmust keep\u201D heritage buildings, the cr\u00E8me de la cr\u00E8me of the heritage sites across the central business district. The Minister acknowledged that it was a reasonable list when it was put to him in April, but it would appear that now just about 12 of the cr\u00E8me de la cr\u00E8me, the very best of the heritage buildings, are still standing. I would like the Minister to indicate what can be done\u2014what support and what signal the Government can provide to building owners\u2014to say that we must keep some of these buildings for the future. The generations that follow us will look back and judge us on this issue, and, if the Christchurch of the latter 21st century is reduced to four heritage sites, I think we will be judged to have failed the generations who follow us. There is not a case to retain very many buildings; most of them have already gone, and many of them had to go. Buildings that were truly unsafe had to come down, but I think we need some signal to say that some will be retained as a reminder of the Christchurch that proudly stood before the quakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0574f8a1624b719525d3474a7f4563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0574f8a1624b719525d3474a7f4563\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery):\u003C/span\u003E I will make a few brief comments in response to those who have spoken already. Occasionally in this Chamber we hear outstanding speeches delivered by members, and I congratulate Aaron Gilmore on his contribution this evening. I note that it will be something that is referred to in Hansard for years to come. It was very, very insightful and incredibly accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe difficulties that Canterbury has experienced over the last 12 months have been considerable; there is no doubt about that. I do not know any people living in the greater Christchurch area at the moment who are not making some change or concession in their lives towards getting the communities they live in back in operation, whether it is in the way they travel around the city, conduct their work activities in the city, or have to make alternative arrangements for their children to get to sport and other things; we could go on and on. An enormous amount of extra effort is being made by many, many people to get things going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EEarlier this year after the 22 February event we established the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority. It was a follow-on from the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Commission, which had much lesser powers, and which was set up after the September event. In setting up the new Government department the Public Service in New Zealand was very much to the fore, and was showing itself to be the best that it is. I congratulate John Ombler on his initial work in setting up the authority, and reaffirm the comments made in this Chamber about the delight we have in Roger Sutton taking on the chief executive role for that organisation. I should mention the names of other people\u2014there are many of them\u2014who are working very, very hard in a very, very focused and collaborative way with all of the districts\u2014Selwyn, Waimakariri, and Christchurch\u2014to get a good result in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI will also mention the Order in Council process, and the wartime powers that Mr Cosgrove regularly suggests that I hold. Those powers are very, very muted by the processes that we have in place, not the least of which are those relating to Orders in Council. I acknowledge the work that the Opposition parties are doing, in collaboration with Government parties, to make sure that that process works well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of things I will cover in the brief few minutes I have left. Firstly, we think the offer made to the 5,000 households so far, which would see them being given the option of leaving those properties at their 2007 valuation, is a fair one. There is no question about that. If we look at all of the valuation data for real estate sales, etc., over a period, we see that that offer stacks up very, very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOn the issue of temporary accommodation an announcement is imminent, which is of an addition, effectively, to the arrangements that have been put in place so far. I need to make it clear that only about 80 families so far have accessed that additional accommodation support, because the private insurers have stepped up in the first instance to make sure that people get those entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOn the issue of emergency heating, I can tell members that under the winter heating programme there has so far been over 9,000 installations of heat devices in houses in the greater Christchurch areas of Selwyn, Waimakariri, and Christchurch\u2014over 9,000. The bulk of that has been of heat pumps, with a smaller number of pellet fires and wood burners. The programme continues, but when we have put that much heating in, and it is on an emergency basis, there will naturally be a time when it starts to slow down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think there are good things we can look forward to in Canterbury, because there has been no significant depopulation and no outright collapse of our local economy. Our Paymark data and electricity usage confirm both of those things, which I think points to a community that wants to recover, and that has a very strong will to get things back to being as good as they can be, and better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to those heritage buildings, all I can say is that if there is an ongoing economic value in those buildings as well as heritage value, the owners of those buildings are bound to recognise that and find a solution for their continued survival. One of the things we must make sure of in the future is that both our residences and our places of work are safe, and that our commercial and industrial activities are conducted in safe buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EVote agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022427beed8b8944626af84e04e5c718bf5\u0022\u003EVote Commerce\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u0022db9385de2bae42b6bbf0449a60af2bff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db9385de2bae42b6bbf0449a60af2bff\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s overall economic goal is to build the foundations for a stronger economy that will provide New Zealanders with jobs, higher incomes, and improved living standards. Work under Vote Commerce directly contributes to this priority by helping to create dynamic and trusted markets, increase the ease of doing business, improve international linkages, and develop enterprising and innovative businesses. It does this by ensuring that effective policy and regulatory frameworks are in place to promote competition, support efficient business transactions, lower compliance costs, improve business confidence to make investments, and give firms access to other markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EImproving confidence in capital markets is essential. Priority under Vote Commerce has been given to several areas of work designed to improve investors\u2019 confidence and participation in New Zealand\u2019s capital markets, following the global financial crisis and the collapse of many financial companies here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EToday in the House the Minister of Finance reported to us that New Zealanders have lost approximately $8.5 billion in collapsed finance companies. That is why investing in a minority shareholding in an energy company must look attractive, sensible, and sustainable for many New Zealanders who want a return but are gun-shy about taking a risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EWe often refer to the \u201Cmum and dad investor\u201D. This is essentially the investor who has a bit of spare cash being saved for retirement and who does not see investment as something that they are highly specialised in. Of course, of equal importance has been the work of improving international linkages so that investment and financial activity can easily flow to and fro across the Tasman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe total appropriation for Vote Commerce has increased by 12 percent\u2014$15.5 million\u2014to a total of $141.43 million in 2011-12. The main change in the appropriation was due to the establishment of the Financial Markets Authority on 1 May 2011. I know that the Minister of Commerce is particularly pleased about the creation and the work of the Financial Markets Authority. It is clear that New Zealand needs a single market regulator with a visible, proactive culture of timely enforcement. On too many occasions in finance company collapses we heard of investors\u2019 money falling to the floor through gaps between regulators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Financial Markets Authority\u2014the FMA\u2014is an independent Crown entity funded by Vote Commerce. It was established in 2011, replacing the Securities Commission. It commenced on 1 May. The Financial Markets Authority enforces securities, financial reporting, and company law as they apply to financial services and securities markets. The Financial Markets Authority also regulates securities, exchanges, financial advisers and brokers, trustees, and issuers, including issuers of KiwiSaver and superannuation schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EThe Financial Markets Authority is playing a more proactive monitoring role than its forerunner, the Securities Commission. The Financial Markets Authority is larger than the Securities Commission, with more staff and resources in a new office in Auckland. The Financial Markets Authority is able to publicly enforce duties of issuers, directors, auditors, trustees, and others involved in financial markets when it is in the public interest to do so. This is a significant new provision that the Securities Commission did not have. The new powers were specifically requested by the Financial Markets Authority establishment board, because of the gap it saw in the Financial Markets Authority\u2019s ability to effectively enforce and supervise our financial markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003EComing out of the global financial crisis, having improved protection for such investors, it is imperative for such investors to have confidence investing in New Plymouth\u2014sorry, New Zealand, as well as New Plymouth, of course! We certainly need investment, with many great opportunities there. Investment in New Zealand is very important, and it is an incredibly important component to our financial recovery and growth. A substantial incentive for people to shift from a borrowing-based way of thinking to an investment-based way of thinking is that they have confidence in a regulatory framework that ensures professional, effective, ethical, and accountable oversight to protect the interests of the investor. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd8f9485fd0d4e3cbb45e4237caa4ddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd8f9485fd0d4e3cbb45e4237caa4ddd\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is my privilege to speak on the Vote Commerce estimates for this 2011 year. The Vote Commerce estimates were increased by 12 percent this financial year, and one of the key reasons for that increase, as my colleague Jonathan Young pointed out, is the establishment of the Financial Markets Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThat authority will, in its first year, have tabbed for it $31.7 million for its establishment and also its functioning. It replaces the Securities Commission. We are informed that it will provide for a more active, more well-resourced, and more streamlined regulator of financial markets. The purpose of it is, again as Mr Young pointed out, to improve investors\u2019 confidence and participation in our capital markets, particularly after the recent spate of finance company failures that occurred in the last 3 to 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EOne of the key provisions of the Financial Markets Authority\u2019s statute, which we put in place, was to give it the right of action, on behalf of either a company or an individual, to take on rogue companies, particularly finance companies. That will provide for those people who cannot take on the action themselves and for the Financial Markets Authority to at least enforce that statute. It will create a new market intelligence unit, which issuers will be able to consult as they develop new products in order to avoid the need for corrective measures later on in the process. That is about working with the industry to provide for more effective and more efficient markets. We have seen recently with the spate of low-ball offers that the Financial Markets Authority will be able to take on such inequitable low-ball offers provided by those people who prey on vulnerable investors. So, we can see that the Financial Markets Authority will be an all-powerful regulator, unlike the Securities Commission, which was its predecessor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe commerce portfolio has been a busy one under the current Minister of Commerce. He departs Parliament in the next few months, so we salute his work in the portfolio. The Commerce Committee has been a rather industrious committee. We have pushed through legislation on financial service providers and financial advisers, auditors and insolvency practitioners, and securities trustees. We have also dealt with patents and copyright law, which was quite difficult. But the mother of all financial markets legislation is still to be done, and that is the reform of the Securities Act, which is well overdue. We expect a draft exposure paper to be out in the next few weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIn terms of the financial advisers legislation, the financial advisers I speak to, particularly in my own electorate of Maungakiekie, say it adds compliance and it adds regulation. But compliance and regulation also allow for the industry to be more credible, and for the people who practise financial advisory services in the markets to have more integrity. The practitioners have said that that is OK. To date, to 1 July, 1,300 authorised financial advisers have been registered, with 700 still to complete that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI will just touch on another piece of legislation that the Minister has signalled should be reformed, which is in the area of moneylenders. The Minister has signalled there will be a financial summit next week, on 11 August, where stakeholders in the whole moneylender industry will come together to share ideas and to exchange their thoughts on the way forward in terms of regulation. We should see some response on that from the Minister and from this Government in the coming months. It is an area I encounter every day in my electorate office and it is one that needs reform. I see people who have been affected by loan sharks or moneylenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022421643f7e8c748848fed3eb750dc79af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022421643f7e8c748848fed3eb750dc79af\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I might take just a quick call on the estimates for commerce. It was a spectacularly constructive estimates hearing that we had with the Commerce Committee this year, and one I was happy to make a small contribution to. We\u2014or the committee, I should say\u2014were interested in a range of issues, with some of them traversed in Vote Commerce and others traversed in Vote Consumer Affairs. We kind of married the votes together to some extent, over about an hour and a half, from memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOne of the things covered off, to some degree, was how well the Financial Markets Authority had begun its functions since it came into effect on 1 May. Interestingly, I think that the culture that has taken root at the Financial Markets Authority is a very strong one. A proactive sense of enforcement and supervision has become part of that organisation\u2019s ethos. In particular\u2014literally from memory\u2014within about 48 hours of the Financial Markets Authority being formed it took a view on low-ball share offers being made by one individual, and a warning notice, from memory a new power under the Financial Markets Authority legislation, was exercised very early in the piece. I think it is fair to say that the Financial Markets Authority has come out of the box pretty quickly, with a fair degree of focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EColleague Sam Lotu-Iiga talked a little bit about what was happening in the financial markets. As I have said many times, one thing we cannot do is regulate for certainty; nor can we regulate for risk. I have said it many times but I will say it again now: nor should we try to regulate for risk. That is the nature of getting a return on an investment. But of course what we know about the type of product that was offered in the financial markets is that the Financial Markets Authority desperately needed a power to be able to deem a particular product to be a security for the purposes of security legislation\u2014in particular, for the Financial Markets Authority to be able to do that in order to avoid a situation where product was being specifically designed to fall outside of securities legislation. Fundamentally, this type of product came about as a result of a property syndication - type product that was put on the market. Of course, over the last 5 or 6 years we have seen about $8.3 billion worth of investors\u2019 money lost or, as they say, put at risk. About $6 billion of that was prior to 2008 and about $2 billion - odd since 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOne of the things about this story\u2014it is not a story, actually; it is a fact\u2014is something that all members who are constituency MPs have experienced, and even the odd list MP might have experienced it, as well. An elderly gentleman came to my office in Feilding many months ago now. He was explaining to me that he had left school at about 15 years old, and had managed to save the equivalent of between $75 and $100 a week from all of his wages over the period of his life. At about 73 or 74 years old he had managed to collect about $250,000 in cash\u2014I am pretty sure that is what he told me\u2014and at that point he decided it was a reasonably substantial amount of cash for an elderly gentleman to have just sitting in a bank account so he went and saw a so-called financial adviser to find out how best to invest that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe advice he got was to diversify the investments, which, on the face of it, seemed reasonable in order to spread risk. That is indeed what he was told to do, except that that risk was spread across four finance companies so he ended up losing the whole lot. It was clear to me at that point\u2014and I know that the Hon Lianne Dalziel shares this view\u2014that a product designed to avoid securities legislation is always going to be in the proximity of clever issuers, lawyers, and the like, which is why the new powers attached to the Financial Markets Authority relating to the capacity to deem those products to be securities for the purpose of securities legislation are so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI regret I seem to have run out of time to address patents and other matters, but I am sure Ms Curran will raise those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EVote agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220eb8434c07c344cd98c10c9f1ec23793\u0022\u003EVote Consumer Affairs agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276059dac2c9747a2bdc305806510b786\u0022\u003EVote Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1d1c4d762e6435cb7909907f2389436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1d1c4d762e6435cb7909907f2389436\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E As chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee I say that the committee was pleased to review the estimates in this sector and engage with the Minister of Justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI note that the work programme covers four specific areas: improving the function and the efficiency of courts, addressing the drivers of crime across a number of portfolios in a wide spectrum following on from the very successful Drivers of Crime seminar at the beginning of this term, and achieving electoral and constitutional reform. It was noted that there had been some movement in amalgamating the various electoral agencies since the beginning of this term, with the last piece of legislation in respect of that having been completed recently. Also I note the preparation for electoral reform, after cross-party negotiations in terms of the electoral finance legislation. Finally, the fourth area of the work programme was to improve the response of the sector to the victims of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to note a number of gains that the Government has had over this term, which it hopes to complete within the next year. We were pleased to note, for instance, that the offender levy programme had collected $3.4 million since it was introduced in July 2010. That has launched 13 new support initiatives for victims. Many of those initiatives are for victims of sexual violence. The Minister told us that the new police safety order initiative was working well, with 3,600 police safety orders issued since March 2011, and only 244 breaches. That puts a lie to criticisms that these safety orders would not be abided by and would result in many more appearances before the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWe are interested to note, too, the changes to legal aid. We note that the change in folding legal aid into the Ministry of Justice is already effected, but there are also legal aid initiatives within the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill, which the committee recently processed. We note the changes that bill will have to legal aid in respect of some things that are contentious but are widely approved across the broader sector of legal aid providers\u2014albeit there are some who are complaining about it. We note the expansion of the Public Defence Service, which is allowing high-quality lawyers to be made available to people appearing before the court in major centres around New Zealand. We look forward to the further expansion of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe committee was very pleased to hear of work that was being done in respect of child victims or witnesses. We note with some concern that there is on average a 15-month gap between an incident occurring and a child having to testify before the court. The Minister is taking initiatives to lessen that time. Some new ground is being covered in terms of the way that that evidence is taken, to lessen the stress on a young child who has to give evidence before the court. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022bec09ce9a2984cafa7911c3634f35872\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bec09ce9a2984cafa7911c3634f35872\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the law and order debate, and the justice system, if no one else from the Opposition has a view on that. I am certainly happy to take a call and just outline how the estimates process before the Justice and Electoral Committee went. I know this is not strictly within the Standing Orders, but I remember this vote being a very volatile debate under the last Government during the estimates debate. Obviously the Opposition is reasonably happy with where we are heading, so perhaps I could just highlight some of the matters that have gone OK up until now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EActually, one of the most interesting things that we will be heading into at the general election this year is the MMP referendum. Recently I was asked to appear at a public meeting in Auckland to explain the referendum and the various systems available for the public of New Zealand to choose from at the time of this year\u2019s general election. I decided that the only thing I could do was to use the information the Electoral Commission was using to explain the different systems, in order to avoid any perception that I might somehow be influencing or leading the debate in a particular direction at that meeting. As I said the other day, I am probably the only member of Parliament who really should not have a view about which electoral system we should have in New Zealand, because I have to make sure that the process is as untainted as possible. I tell members that the information provided by the Electoral Commission, and the way that its television ads explained the four systems and MMP, was actually really good. It was a really good piece of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cabf9010cf744f7bb056430b2d333ca7\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: You have to say so yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9cf0088ebc4a7d94e43577c96bb02a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. It was the Electoral Commission, I just said, that did it, not me. That was the whole point of the speech. I was talking about the fact that I was using information from the Electoral Commission, because otherwise I would be seen to be tainting the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b41fdd367514564a6cf1ccfc729a7c8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve run out of things to say now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d75150f6d724ee29c628c85617f3a61\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just got offended, actually, that the member Grant Robertson turned his back on me, contrary to the Standing Orders. But, anyway, as I was saying, the point of this particular yarn was that members of the public at the end said to me that the systems as explained by the Electoral Commission were not as complex as many of them had thought. We ended up in a reasonably lengthy discussion about which system did what to Parliament. The only advice I really gave the public meeting was to think about what shape voters would like to see Parliament and work backwards from there. In other words, they should not pick a system and then try to determine what Parliament would look like. Voters should perhaps decide what they would like Parliament to look like, and then pick a system that would deliver that type of Parliament. It was quite an interesting process to work through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOne of the figures on police safety orders that we used at the estimates hearings was in the late 3,000s. I am happy to update the member on that number now that we are in the Chamber. As I understand it from numbers that were put in front of me prior to appearing on The Nation in the weekend, the number of police safety orders is now 4,660, which is a remarkable thing, for two reasons. The first is not so good; the second is quite good. The first reason, which is not so good, is that it tells us we still have much work to do in the area of domestic violence. In other words, the fact that these orders are being so well used is problematic. But the second point is that they are available. The police safety order is a mechanism for the police to de-stress an environment without having to bring charges. It allows women and children in particular to carry on in the home they are in, in a reasonably safe environment, having had the alleged perpetrator removed without arrests being made. It avoids the hassles of the court process, and allows a cooling-off period for the alleged perpetrator. Actually, I think the process has worked extremely well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOne of the things that interest me continues to be the issue of how the court system interacts with the people in it\u2014in particular, with children. We talked at the select committee about an inquisitorial model in this part of our justice system; in Austria it is called an accusatorial model. On that basis, I think that Parliament could expect some announcements in this area relatively shortly, meaning that more decision-making on legislation is likely to make its way to this House prior to a date that is creeping up pretty quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EVote agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a230a41b4f8844048a8ec4221b1585f2\u0022\u003EVote Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8649a49e15f4d7880e3a6fde90a25e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8649a49e15f4d7880e3a6fde90a25e7\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and take a call on the estimates for Vote Health. The estimates for Vote Health did not get off to a great start for the Minister of Health. The Minister\u2019s press statement from 19 May, after the Budget came out, told us that Budget 2011 was delivering an extra $2.2 billion to public health services over the next 4 years, including an additional $585 million in initiatives in 2011-12. Well, that turned out to not be true. In this House\u2014over a period of days, admittedly\u2014we were able to draw out from the Minister that in actual fact the $585 million additional in this Budget was not so; it was $420 million additional and $165 million worth of money that has been cut from elsewhere in the health sector. Sadly, this is typical of this particular Minister\u2019s approach\u2014the smoke and mirrors and the manufactured targets. No, the reality is that $165 million of the so-called $585 million additional is, in fact, money taken from other parts of the health sector. It was a bad start for the Minister when it came to these estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister arrived at the Health Committee to go through the estimates, we had to ask him to give us a little bit more information on where some of these cuts were coming from. In fact, in particular, there was the question of the $61 million of unspecified cuts to the public health budget. The Minister was asked to provide some information on that, and in the transcript from the hearing the Minister was, peculiarly, unable to tell us what those $61 million worth of cuts were. He could not actually define them. He had a bit of paper in front of him, but he really did not know what it meant. Basically, he had no idea of what he was cutting. There was $61 million going from public health, and he had no idea what he was cutting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ffcc06ded248988fe2acc58380fd24\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He thinks it\u2019s funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f364865259840608a461c0c401cc47b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He thinks it is hilarious. Well, that is good, because the other thing that the Minister said in the exchange that we had with him was that he would provide us with the detail and the explanation behind each of those cuts. Well, here is a question for the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Health: why has he not provided that information? He told the select committee he would provide the information. He has not done that. The select committee was forced to write to the Minister last week to ask him to do what he said he would do at the select committee, which was to tell the committee where $61 million worth of funding cuts have been taken from in public health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is simply not on for a Minister of the Crown to not know where $61 million worth of funding cuts are coming from, and then compound that by refusing to tell the select committee where the cuts are coming from and not providing the information. Now the select committee has written to the Minister, and as of today we still do not have a reply. That is how little this Minister cares about the accountability in this portfolio to say where this money is coming from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETo take that much money out of public health has an impact. The Minister gets up at conferences around New Zealand and tells people that he believes in prevention and he thinks we need to take a preventive approach, and we must invest in making sure that people do not get sick. Yet his budget and these estimates take money out of public health. The Minister was at the same seminar I was at, when Sir Michael Marmot came from the UK, and we sat there all day\u2014well, some of us stayed for the whole day. We listened to, and heard from, all the experts within New Zealand in this area and from Sir Michael himself about the importance of investing in early intervention, in prevention, and in making sure people stay healthy. But, that is not what this Government is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat this Government is doing is focusing on the Minister\u2019s manufactured targets within things like elective services. This Minister is saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc11b22507f047cba875f19e96041551\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Immunisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022402c480b670a406a812c29c12347d05a\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member on the other side of the Chamber says \u201CImmunisation\u201D. That is absolutely great. That is excellent. That is carrying on the good work that was started under the last Labour Government, and we can all be pleased about that. But district health boards focusing more and more on trying to meet the Minister\u2019s manufactured elective services targets means that funding disappears from other areas. The Minister might say \u201COh, well, these are the nanny State health promotion ideas\u201D. Well, that is not true. Not only are they the preventive measures that keep people healthy, but also the services that are being cut on this Minister\u2019s watch are front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95f7928f77e420b9f2023e23851280a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95f7928f77e420b9f2023e23851280a\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to be taking part in this estimates debate on Vote Health, and I would like to congratulate the Minister of Health on his leadership in this portfolio. Vote Health was the biggest recipient of Budget 2011. It was one of the few areas to receive a modest funding increase, which will be paid for by making efficiencies in other Government departments. This continues the Government\u2019s election pledge to continue the growth of funding to the public health system. Budget 2011 is delivering an extra $2.2 billion to public health services over the next 4 years, including an additional $585 million in initiatives in the coming year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI would like to particularly focus on three areas: medicines, rheumatic fever, and maternity services. The Budget included $80 million for wider access to medicines, and it is expected that around 32,000 patients in the first year will benefit from this extra funding. Together with the extra $100 million for medicines in the last 2 years, this means that this Government has invested an additional $180 million in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EDespite the serious economic environment, the Government has continued to invest new resources into health to meet our commitment to a strong and enduring public health service. This is in contrast to the approach taken by several Governments around the world that have slashed the funding of their public health services in response to the global financial crisis. In 2008 we made an election commitment to lift the pharmaceutical spending per head of population, and the extra $180 million will bring us up from $163 in 2008-09 to $174 per head of population in 2011-12. This means more patients are benefiting from community medicines and cancer treatments. In terms of the number of medicines funded, under this National Government we have seen the most intensive programme of medicine investment since Pharmac was created in 1993. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis Government has acted on rheumatic fever. In the 2011 Budget $12 million has been allocated towards this debilitating disease. M\u0101ori and Pacific people, most of them children, living in cold, overcrowded homes are most likely to get rheumatic fever. They are 20 times and 37 times, respectively, more likely to be admitted to hospital for the first time for acute rheumatic fever than anyone else. It is a Third World disease and we need to eradicate it from our country. It has been a health priority since 2001, but nothing has ever happened except that more children contracted this disease. This $12 million investment in the Budget this year is aimed right at rheumatic fever and will support a massive campaign across high-prevalence communities, involving school-based sore throat clinics for over 22,000 children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt has been a long time since I practised as a general practitioner, but the Minister of Health showed us in the Health Committee the throat swabs that will be used for these programmes. I had not appreciated that they are actually on-the-spot throat swabs that are taken of children with sore throats, and they show whether they have strep throat. If they have strep throat, they have an antibiotic and that is it. If they do not have strep throat, they do not need to have an antibiotic. I had not realised that technology had advanced in the time since I left general practice. I am delighted that we have this programme, which will make a real difference to children in those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003ERheumatic fever is a terrible disease. It can lead to heart problems. Basically, it is a crippling, chronic illness with a terrible outcome for children, who need to have monthly, painful injections of penicillin, and they have a terrible outlook. This is a fantastic programme. It is long awaited\u2014it has been waiting since 2001\u2014and this Government is doing something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBudget 2011 has new initiatives for maternity services and to help new mothers and babies. The Budget provides an extra $33.2 million for maternity services over 4 years to improve safety and quality. A further amount of $21.3 million will boost Well Child services, with particular focus on first-time mothers. The additional funding is expected to deliver an extra 54,000 visits to about 18,000 mothers who need this additional support. For these mothers, this will mean, on average, three additional Well Child visits up to the first 2 months of a baby\u2019s life. The extra $33 million announced for maternity services includes $18 million to improve the safety and quality of services for mothers and babies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022566ab98519ad465080e3d1b242e954fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022566ab98519ad465080e3d1b242e954fa\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E To carry on from where we were, I say that front-line health services have in fact been attacked under this Government. The Minister of Health likes to stand up in this Chamber on a regular basis and tell members that it is all about moving services to the front line. Well, I ask the Minister, what could be more front-line than a mental health clinic\u2014an addiction clinic for young people? What could be more front-line than that in addressing services? Yet that is exactly what has just closed in the Nelson-Marlborough region. That is exactly what has just closed in the Nelson-Marlborough region. It is right here for the information of the Minister, if he would like to read it. That clinic has closed because of the pressure that this Minister has put on district health board budgets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlthough the money that has gone into district health board budgets has increased slightly, the increase is nowhere near enough to keep up with inflation. The chair of the Whanganui District Health Board told us in the Wanganui Chronicle that there was no way the board could keep providing the services that it was expected to provide, with the money that was coming from the Government. It has simply not been enough to keep up with inflation, and the cuts are coming. They are coming in front-line health services, they are coming in youth health services, and they are coming in sexual health services. They are coming in all the areas where New Zealanders rightly expect that there would be front-line public health services. The pressure is now going on district health board budgets, and non-governmental organisations that are providing the services are having to cut back their services. That is all happening on the watch of a Minister who likes to pretend that more money is going into health and that more money is going into front-line health services, when the tragic reality is that it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we go around regional New Zealand, we see the impact of this. If we go to a place like Taihape, we see that the hospital is gone\u2014closed. The hospital in H\u0101wera is under threat. But, no, the Minister comes in like a white knight there and says he will not cut a service if the community does not go along with that. I tell Mr Ryall to go to Rangiora. That community did not want its after-hours services to be cut, but they are gone. But, no, the Minister did not ride in like a white knight there; the after-hours services have gone. [Interruption] The Minister says that is the doctors\u2019 fault. That is the problem with this Minister: he wants to wash his hands when the services are cut, but it is his Government\u2019s underfunding that means that things like that happen in Rangiora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn H\u0101wera the Minister said he would ride in there. But he will not do so around the rest of the country, because this Minister is underfunding the entire sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0576806d8d430e9de9292586bb2c69\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: If this member was the leader of the Labour Party, it wouldn\u2019t be at 27 percent in the polls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d99c14de4c6473fb3ef6a2419bb97fd\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member on the other side of the House could do with going to Rangiora, talking to the people there, and seeing what they feel about the cuts to after-hours services. He could do with going to the Kapiti coast, talking to Linley Williams, and seeing how she felt about paying $41 for her 2-year-old to go to an after-hours clinic. He could go and see the community services card holders in Ashburton who were charged $73 for an after-hours visit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders deserve to have access to affordable primary health care. New Zealanders deserve to have preventive health services that will help to keep them healthy, and they deserve some honesty from the Minister. They deserve the Minister not to get up and say he was delivering $585 million extra for health, when the truth is that that is not what has happened. Money has been recycled around, the pressure is going on key programmes, and this Minister is not being upfront with the New Zealand public about the impact that this will have on health services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is another thing in the estimates that the Minister may care to respond to. Why is it that when we look out to the capital budget for the next 2 or 3 years, we see that it almost disappears? The Auditor-General\u2019s office wanted to know why that money just about disappears. Is all the building over? There is an urgent need to build hospital buildings around New Zealand in the next few years, and the money for that is simply not in these estimates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOnce again, the numbers are smoke and mirrors in these estimates. This Minister is trying to mislead the New Zealand public about the investment that is going into health. We need to have investment at the primary health care end. We need to ensure that there are quality secondary services available, and we need to ensure that health gets the investment that it deserves; not what the Minister wants to pretend to us. For a Minister to come to a select committee, to come to an estimates hearing, and not be able to tell the committee even where the cuts are coming from is disgraceful. But, what is more, a Minister who then refuses to respond to the committee when it asks to get that detail is a Minister who is not giving the New Zealand public what they deserve in the area of Vote Health. In Vote Health, New Zealanders know that there is not a bottomless pit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6f74937c1b4ca19dcb8efcb8955531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6f74937c1b4ca19dcb8efcb8955531\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E It is an absolute pleasure to take a call in this estimates debate regarding Vote Health. What a shame it is that Grant Robertson has turned into a shroud waver, when in these estimates we signalled that $585 million extra will be put into health\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bb7242756c423385439c38453d902c\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: No, there weren\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022685d18c23080496ea3f9d48384941f4e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014absolutely; $585 million extra will be available for health. This is a great credit to the Minister of Health, Tony Ryall, who since 2008 has managed to get $1.2 billion extra put into health. [Interruption] The Minister tells me it is $1.5 billion. That is an absolute indication of how the National Government is prioritising health as being very important for New Zealanders and is delivering. What we remember over the last 9 years was a total lack of productivity in health, but a total increase in bureaucracy. That is what happened under Labour. Now we are starting to get results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt was very rich to hear Grant Robertson talk about health prevention, because under this Government there have been some outstanding achievements. One just has to go to the immunisation rate. In 2007 only 75 percent of 2-year-olds were fully immunised. Now the figure is 90 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill with amendment and progress on the Appropriation (2011/12 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110802499039a1835944ccac0f16b033ed04db000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"