"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b660c42a52c44bfb9f1cc7f47c644a3a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223ad1a44add7486a9d8c7a2232e7fd96\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000004\u0022\u003EKarakia.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223900a369814540d0a4f0835e6be0e878\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac5612ed98a34553a028b377748efff5\u0022\u003ESir Paul Reeves ONZ, GCMG, GCVO, QSO\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7eedfcf2a614da8ac3a4469ff716069\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7eedfcf2a614da8ac3a4469ff716069\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice on the passing of former Governor-General of New Zealand Sir Paul Reeves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227e92bf3e1e64760b4406fc0431f9536\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there are objection to that course being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ccb15e6f384ef58b1690553a7a8a5c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the House express its sympathy and condolences to the family of Sir Paul Reeves, and pay tribute to the outstanding contribution Sir Paul made to this country. The Rt Rev. and the Hon Sir Paul Alfred Reeves passed away in Auckland on Sunday, 14 August at the age of 78. It is with great sadness that I heard of Sir Paul\u2019s passing, for he was one of the country\u2019s greatest statesmen and admired by so many. I had the privilege of meeting Sir Paul on a number of occasions and he was a fine man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESir Paul trained for the Anglican priesthood and in 1980 became Primate and Archbishop of New Zealand. In 1985 he became New Zealand\u2019s first M\u0101ori Governor-General. His tenure as Governor-General was one of inclusiveness and compassion. He modelled his governorship on the life of a bishop, saying: \u201CA bishop travels. A bishop stands alongside his people and searches for common ground.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESir Paul\u2019s contribution to New Zealand did not end when he left Government House. He spent another two decades serving at the highest level, and for this the people of New Zealand are forever indebted to him. He was Anglican Observer at the United Nations, he observed elections in Ghana and South Africa, he helped write constitutions for Fiji and Ghana, and he chaired the Nelson Mandela Trust. He was awarded New Zealand\u2019s highest honour, the Order of New Zealand, in 2007. This was New Zealand\u2019s chance to formally recognise his outstanding dedication to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe thoughts of the Government are with Sir Paul\u2019s wife, Beverley, Lady Reeves; his three daughters, Sarah, Bridget, and Jane; his six mokopuna; and his whole family at this time. A State funeral for Sir Paul will be held this Thursday, 18 August in Auckland, and I will be attending alongside a number of members of this House. I am sure we will be joined by many New Zealanders wishing to pay tribute to Sir Paul\u2019s life. Sir Paul\u2019s life was a life spent giving. His contribution to this country was simply enormous, and New Zealand is a poorer place for his passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022818b7b2b9e7641fb9b69239143ff855b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022818b7b2b9e7641fb9b69239143ff855b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Today in this House we mourn the loss of a great New Zealander, Sir Paul Reeves. In his 78 years he contributed hugely to his people, to the community, and to his country, and he still had so much to give. To Lady Beverley and their children, Sarah, Bridget, and Jane, we extend our sympathies for your loss. But we also celebrate today a life of remarkable achievements. He was a boy of humble beginnings who rose to lead his church, to be the Governor-General, and to represent his country and the Commonwealth with distinction. He was the youngest-ever priest to become an Anglican bishop. He was the first church leader and the first M\u0101ori to become Governor-General. Later he served internationally with the United Nations and the Commonwealth. He headed the Nelson Mandela Foundation, and he was the Commonwealth Secretary-General\u2019s envoy to Guyana and Fiji. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESir Paul mixed easily with world leaders, but he was equally at home with New Zealanders from all walks of life. He was a man of considerable principle and integrity. Sir Paul always expressed himself in a calm and measured way, but underlying that was a real passion about the things that he believed in. He was not afraid to take a stand on issues that were important to him. He was one of the Citizens for Rowling in 1975, and in 1981 he openly and strongly opposed the Springbok Tour. That led some, including the then Leader of the Opposition, to express doubts about him and to oppose his appointment as Governor-General. But the way that Sir Paul carried out his role as Governor-General was, in fact, exemplary. He was a man of decency and strength of character. He spoke quietly but with deep conviction. As a Minister in the fourth Labour Government throughout his term as Governor-General, and later as Minister of Foreign Affairs in the next Government, I had many discussions with Sir Paul. He always expressed his views in a considered manner, but he expressed them forthrightly. He had enormous compassion and an unwavering commitment to social justice. When his viceregal role came to an end he continued to contribute in education as the chancellor of AUT, Auckland University of Technology, in the diplomatic and international arena, and as an advocate for his Te \u0100tiawa people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWith Sir Paul\u2019s passing we have lost a very special New Zealander, a man who gave so much to his community, and a man whom we will remember as being true to his principles. We will miss him greatly. T\u0101 Paora, haere, haere, haere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad4bba9f38c94d538c95e528e1d58a8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad4bba9f38c94d538c95e528e1d58a8e\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This nation mourns the death of Sir Paul Reeves. Put simply, a t\u014Dtara has fallen in the forest. But the occasion of his passing, although deeply sad to us all, is not tragic; rather, it is a cause for national celebration of a long life uniquely well lived. Sir Paul led as large a life as was possible, full of fun, laughter, love, and achievement. His personal fulfilment, and thus his contribution, was both spiritual and secular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESir Paul saw himself, characteristically, as a child of the nation he loved. He once said: \u201CI was a product of this country at a time when there was social mobility or educational opportunities available to everybody. I didn\u2019t have the benefit of any material assets either personally or in my family. We were what you would call poor but yet I was able to go to secondary school and university. It is that question of access and the ability to match opportunities with an innate desire to achieve which is vital.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWith the passage of time, Sir Paul proved himself to be a vital person. Leadership is a subtle and elusive thing. When it is naturally present it is effortless; when it is absent it is laboured. Sir Paul had the gift of effortless leadership. He was humble, yet dignified in style. He was genuine and authentic in person. He was fearless in expressing belief. He was truly a man of integrity. Sir Paul embodied all the values for which our parties in this House strive\u2014freedom and aspiration, equality and justice, cultural harmony, and ecological wisdom. In so doing, he united us all through simply being himself, the symbol of a nation as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EI first met Sir Paul in New York, a few weeks after his arrival. He was virtually unknown in that huge, anonymous, preoccupied city, after having just been head of State in his home country. Such a transition might have grated with some, but not with Sir Paul, who found it, I think, to be something of a liberation. Once over lunch, for example, he told me of a courtesy call he had just made on the ambassador of a close neighbour. Sir Paul described his assigned mission in the new Anglican office to the UN, his hopes and aspirations, and the various challenges he was anticipating. The ambassador heard him out patiently, and then cut in and said: \u201CWell, that\u2019s all fine, Paul, but tell me: what was your last job in New Zealand?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ESir Paul did my wife and me the honour of assisting with our marriage some 20 years ago. He facilitated the arrangements for our wedding in Christchurch Cathedral, and then officiated at our New York marriage celebrations shortly thereafter. He gave a special homespun dignity that day to what was a cosmopolitan and multi-faith grouping of friends in New York. We walked from the chapel, through the streets of downtown Manhattan, to our apartment across the road from the twin towers. I recall that moment in springtime as clearly as if it were yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has been well served with leadership over the years. Our leaders tend to be of the rugged individualist type\u2014they who climb mountain tops and sail the Southern Ocean, crawl into crushed buildings to hold a hand, or rescue mates under military fire. Sir Paul gave us a different vision of leadership. It was a refined, softer leadership that appealed to our better selves. It combined spiritual inquiry with secular wisdom. This type of leadership is rare in this land, and we are the poorer for having lost him. Yet Sir Paul would admonish us if we were to lionise him beyond what he would take to be his natural measure, to which I would reply: \u201CAll the more reason to respect and remember you, Sir Paul.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003ELet us lay to rest this great New Zealander, this humble man of our land, who spoke so thoughtfully, who stood so tall, who loved so much. Let us pay our deep respect, which we as a nation owe to Sir Paul Reeves. Let us then honour him in the manner he would wish, by resolving to live up to the standards he set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002265631e5244554f52b02fe64ed6a8c617\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265631e5244554f52b02fe64ed6a8c617\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I stand today, along with all my colleagues in the ACT Party and in this House, to pay tribute to one of our great statesmen. Sir Paul Reeves was a great New Zealander who served his country with distinction throughout his life. He served as Governor-General from 1985 to 1990, and was the first M\u0101ori and the first cleric to fill that position. Sir Paul lived a life of service to his congregation and to this nation. He was a deeply faithful man who took humble pride in his position within the Anglican Church. Sir Paul is remembered as an inspirational leader with a great sense of humour and wit\u2014a man who was respectful, compassionate, and inclusive of others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIn 1990, as Governor-General, he hosted the first open day at Government House\u2014a tradition that continues to this day\u2014paving the way for greater transparency and inclusiveness in the role of the Governor-General. Following retirement as Governor-General, Sir Paul continued to serve his country at the highest level for over two decades. He served his church as well as his country as the Archbishop of the Anglican Church in New Zealand and as assistant Bishop of New York. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EHis life of dedication, service, and compassion holds lessons for us all. The thoughts and prayers of the ACT Party, this House, and, indeed, all New Zealanders are with his wife, Lady Beverley Reeves, his three daughters, and his six grandchildren. Our nation is the poorer for his loss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d4416b305443458e8ec7ee8dab5c83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d4416b305443458e8ec7ee8dab5c83\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhatakaka te hau ki te uru\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhakataka te hau ki te tonga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKia m\u0101kinakina ki uta\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKia m\u0101taratara ki tai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EE h\u012B ake ana te at\u0101kura\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHe tio, he huka, he hauhunga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETihei mauri ora!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKua tanuku te toka i te whenua. Kua hinga te t\u014Dtara o te wao. Kua ng\u016B te kaiwhakarite o te H\u0101hi. E P\u0101ora, e moe. E te ringa raup\u0101 o te iwi, e te kaituitui i te tangata, e te kaikauhau o te rongopai, e te kaiwero i ng\u0101 K\u0101wanatanga o te motu, e te kaih\u0101pai o Te Titiriti o Waitangi, e te kaik\u014Drero o Irih\u0101peti, e te tauira o te whakaiti me te rangim\u0101rie, e te uri o Te \u0100ti Awa, e te kaikawe o te raukura ki ng\u0101 t\u014Dpito katoa o te motu, o te ao, takoto mai, takoto mai, takoto mai. Whai atu koe e koro ki te \u0101huatanga o Tirik\u0101tene, whai atu i a Te Atawhai Taiaroa, a te Haunui, whai atu i ng\u0101 p\u012Bhopa, a te Manuhuia, a te Whakahuihui, whai atu i ng\u0101 mate o n\u0101 tata nei, o t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 uri o Kahungungu a Meagan, a Te Heik\u014Dk\u014D. N\u014D n\u0101 tata nei te uri o Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, haere koutou, haere koutou, haere koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAr\u0101 n\u014D te k\u014Drero o roto o Taranaki. He ngeri mana whenua te k\u014Drero. Anei te k\u014Drero: \u201CTitiro, titiro, ki te maunga T\u012Bt\u014Dhea runga o Parihaka, Wait\u014Dtara. Ng\u0101ti Moeahu, Ng\u0101ti Haupoto. Ko te t\u0101kiritanga i te k\u0101hu o Wikit\u014Dria, kait\u014Da, kait\u014Da. Ko Tohu, ko Te Whiti ng\u0101 manu e rua i patu te hoariri ki te rangim\u0101rie, kss au\u0113, kss au\u0113! Ahakoa te p\u0101huatanga o Parihaka, u\u0113, u\u0113, u\u0113 h\u0101!\u201D. He k\u014Drero t\u0113nei n\u014D roto o Taranaki, ar\u0101, n\u014D te whakapapa o te p\u012Bhopa e takoto mai r\u0101 ki T\u0101maki-makau-rau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHe pai tonu t\u0113nei r\u0101rangi k\u014Drero i te mea, ar\u0101 n\u014D ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki a T\u0101 P\u0101ora. I k\u014Drero n\u0101 t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te maunga t\u012Bt\u014Dhea, ko Taranaki t\u0113r\u0101, k\u0101kahutia e te hukahuka, e te hukapapa. He tohu t\u0113r\u0101 o te mate. Koia t\u0113nei whai i ng\u0101 mate o Taranaki. Ko te Meringa H\u014Dh\u0101ia t\u0113r\u0101, ko Lindsay MacLeod t\u0113r\u0101, ko Matarena Rau-K\u016Bp\u0101 t\u0113r\u0101, ko Tom Ellison t\u0113r\u0101, ng\u0101 uri o Te \u0100tiawa tonu kua mate in\u0101 tata nei i te tau kua hipa ake. Kai reira an\u014D hoki te k\u014Drero mai m\u014D Parihaka, te k\u0101inga o te koroua nei, te w\u0101hi i huihui ai ng\u0101 iwi i ng\u0101 tau kua hipa ake. Ar\u0101 n\u014D ng\u0101 marae tapu, ko Parahuka, ko Toroa\u0101nui, ko Takit\u016Bt\u016B. Ar\u0101 n\u014D te k\u014Drero, ko Wait\u014Dtara te wai tuku kiri o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua, ng\u0101 t\u016Bpuna e rere atu r\u0101, mai i Parihaka, \u0101, ki te takutai moana. Ar\u0101 n\u014D te k\u014Drero m\u014D te k\u0101h\u016B o Wikit\u014Dria. He k\u014Drero t\u0113r\u0101 m\u014D te \u0101huatanga o T\u0101 Paora i te w\u0101 i a ia i mau nei te k\u0101kahu o Wikit\u014Dria hai K\u0101wana Tianara m\u014D te motu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHe k\u014Drero kai reira m\u014D Te Whiti o Rongomai r\u0101ua ko Tohu K\u0101kahi. T\u0101 r\u0101tau ko te kawe i t\u0113nei k\u014Drero, he h\u014Dnore, he kororia, he maungarongo ki te whenua, he whakaaro pai ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa. Ar\u0101, ko te tauira t\u0113r\u0101 o t\u0113nei mea o te rangim\u0101rie n\u0101 T\u0101 Paora t\u0113r\u0101 i kawe ki ng\u0101 t\u014Dpito katoa o te motu. I whai ia i te \u0101huatanga o ng\u0101 poropiti nei. He aha he k\u014Drero i tua atu atu? E k\u012B ana te k\u014Drero, i patu te hoariri ki te rangim\u0101rie. M\u0113n\u0101, ka \u0101ta tiriro ki \u0113nei k\u014Drero, ka noho taupatupatu ng\u0101 k\u014Drero. Patu i te hoariri ki te rangim\u0101rie, ar\u0101, te k\u014Drero nui. Koia T\u0101 Paora i kawe nei te \u0101huatanga o te rangim\u0101rie ki te ao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EN\u0101, te k\u014Drero whakamutunga, ahakoa te p\u0101huatanga o Parihaka\u2014u\u0113, u\u0113, u\u0113, h\u0101! He whakam\u0101rama ake i te rangim\u0101rie o Taranaki ahakoa i patua r\u0101tau e te raupatu, e te muru o te whenua, he aha t\u0101 Taranaki? Kaua ki te hiki i te p\u016B, k\u0101o. Ko t\u0101 r\u0101tau, ko te kawe i te \u0101huatanga o te k\u014Drero o te Whiti o Rongomai r\u0101ua ko Tohu K\u0101kahi, he rangim\u0101rie, he rangim\u0101rie, he rangim\u0101rie. He aha t\u0101 T\u0101 Paora? He rangim\u0101rie, he rangim\u0101rie, he whakaiti. Koinei te k\u014Drero nui ki a ia, koia t\u0113n\u0101 e takoto mai r\u0101 i T\u0101maki-makau-rau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKo t\u0101 te Pati M\u0101ori, he tautoko i ng\u0101 poroporoaki nui ki a ia. Koia t\u0113r\u0101 kua riro ki \u014Dna m\u0101tua, ki \u014Dna t\u016Bpuna. E te P\u0101p\u0101 o te Motu, e te ringa raup\u0101 o te iwi, takoto mai, takoto mai, e moe. Ki te wh\u0101nau, e tautoko ake i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o te hunga kua t\u016B ake i mua i a au, ko te k\u012B atu ki a r\u0101tau, kia kaha, kia toa, kia manawanui. Kai wareware i a t\u0101tau, T\u0101 Paora, koia t\u0113nei e whai i ng\u0101 tapuwae o r\u0101tou kua ngaro. E koro, takoto mai, takoto mai, takoto mai, e moe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Cease the winds from the west\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ECease the winds from the south\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELet the piercing cold winds blow over the land\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnd the intensely cold winds blow over the ocean\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs it heralds a red-tipped dawn \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWith a sharpened air, a touch of frost, a promise of a glorious day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBehold the breath of life!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe rock has crumbled to the ground. The great t\u014Dtara of the forest has fallen. An archbishop of the Anglican Church has been silenced. Sir Paul, rest. To the worker with chafed hands of the people, the challenger of the nation\u2019s Governments, the one who raised the profile of the Treaty of Waitangi, Queen Elizabeth\u2019s representative, the epitome of humility and tranquillity, the descendant of Te \u0100ti Awa, the bearer of the legacy to all extremities of the country and the world, lie there, rest there, recline there. Sir, your death follows the deaths of Whet\u016B Tirik\u0101tene-Sullivan, Te Atawhai Taiaroa, Tione Haunui, bishops Manuhuia Bennett and Te Whakahuihui Vercoe; the recent ones of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, Meagan Joe, and Te Heik\u014Dk\u014D Mataira; and only a few days ago a descendant of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, Dean Stebbing, passed away as well. So to all of you, farewell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is an aphorism in Taranaki. It is derived from a rhythmic chant with actions. Here it is: \u201CGaze towards the barren mountain above Parihaka and the Wait\u014Dtara River, Ng\u0101ti Moeahu and Ng\u0101ti Haupoto. It is the casting aside of Queen Victoria\u2019s cloak; good riddance, good job. Tohu and Te Whiti were the two prophets who defeated the enemy with peace. Kss oh, kss oh! Despite the plundering of Parihaka, the blows have landed, the blows have landed. Ow!\u201D. This is a maxim from within Taranaki and from the genealogy of the bishop who is lying there in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe line that this saying takes is a good one, because so much of it is about Sir Paul. It speaks about a barren mountain, which is Taranaki, being cloaked in snow. That is a sign of death. This death then follows the deaths of Taranaki in regard to Te Meringa H\u014Dh\u0101ia, Lindsay MacLeod, Matarena Rau-K\u016Bp\u0101, and Tom Ellison, actual decendants of Te \u0100tiawa who have passed away over the past year. It mentions Parihaka, the home of that elder, the place where people gathered in past years. There were other sacred marae mentioned: Parahuka, Toroa\u0101nui, and Takit\u016Bt\u016B. It describes the Wait\u014Dtara River as being the conveyor of the ancestors from Parihaka to the sea. It mentions the cloak of Queen Victoria, which pertains to the time when Sir Paul was the Governor-General of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe maxim also mentions Te Whiti o Rongomai and Tohu K\u0101kahi. Those two preached the message of honour, glory, peace on the land, and goodwill to all people. Sir Paul was the epitome of peace and carried that message to all extremities of the country. He followed the example of these two prophets. What more can be said? According to the proverb, the enemy was defeated through peaceful means. If one looks closely at these words, the message contradicts itself. Defeating the enemy through peaceful means is the important message. And Sir Paul carried that message to the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe final statement is that despite the plundering of Parihaka\u2014\u201Cthe blows have landed, the blows have landed. Ow!\u201D\u2014to further demonstrate Taranaki\u2019s peace it should be noted that even though they were hurt and affected by the confiscation of land, what did Taranaki do? They did not pick up the gun, no. What they did instead was to pick up what Te Whiti o Rongomai and Tohu K\u0101kahi preached, which was peace, peace, peace. What did Sir Paul advocate? Peace, peace, humility. This was the greatest thing to him. He who lies there in state in Auckland is an epitome of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party endorses the great farewell tributes being made to him. He is the one who has gone to his forefathers, his ancestors. To the Father of the Nation, the worker with chafed hands of the people, lie there, rest there, sleep. To the family, I endorse the tenor of the tributes expressed by those who stood before me. I urge them to be strong, courageous, and stout-hearted. Lest we forget, this is Sir Paul, the one who now follows the footsteps of those who are gone. O elderly one, lie there, rest there, recline there, sleep.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022db943be2a80042349dfa06f64e3b8278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db943be2a80042349dfa06f64e3b8278\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a contribution to this debate by the Hon Jim Anderton, leader of Jim Anderton\u2019s Progressive party, and for the contribution to be included in the parliamentary record, given that Mr Anderton is currently delayed in Christchurch by the weather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931b7f6548c845a99023ce8cec323f61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI join with the House in expressing our sadness at the passing of Paul Reeves and in expressing condolences to his family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAs our Governor-General he helped to bring New Zealand into a new era, because he was so obviously different to those before him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe was the first M\u0101ori to hold the position, and the first to come to the job from outside the customary establishment diplomatic and legal circles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAnd more than that he had a highly developed sense of social awareness, and he was not afraid to express his thoughts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe was our first Governor-General to have grown up after the Depression of the thirties, and like so many others who came of age in that time, he was influenced by the change it made to New Zealand, and the way we think about ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThroughout his life he identified with the cause of social and economic justice. He came from a modest family background and never allowed himself to forget that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe knew from simply growing up and looking around that economic adversity and social exclusion can wound deeply, and that we owe it to everyone born into our communities to give them as equal as possible a start in life, the sort of fair go society that most New Zealanders want to live in, and which is one of our most admirable achievements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe spoke out against division\u2014between rich and poor, and against racial divisiveness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe was not afraid to push the limits of his constitutional position and its conventions and to make himself felt in political areas where his predecessors would have been reluctant to tread. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure too that often his words would have irritated politicians, and yet he spoke always with such charm and good humour that they couldn\u2019t possibly take public issue with him, even if he was subtly but effectively chiding them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHe was always able to make his point effectively and to cause those he was addressing to pause and to take stock without giving offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut above all he wore his talents lightly because Paul Reeves had that one thing above all else which marks out those who serve us best\u2014his modesty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ETruly with his passing a mighty totara has fallen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002233cbe4fb7b4e48f28e40bf0b6046a7a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233cbe4fb7b4e48f28e40bf0b6046a7a8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E There was an awesome dignity about Sir Paul that struck one the first time one met him. At times it could be taken to perhaps belie the force of personality and the force of conviction that came with Sir Paul, but in many senses he was the perfect choice to be the Governor-General of New Zealand during the 1980s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAt a time when this country had gone through periods of great division and tension, he showed that it was possible to hold strong views, and to promote strong views, not only forcefully and courageously but with a dignity and an honour that would garner respect from even his most bitter opponents. So it proved to be during the time he was Governor-General of New Zealand. He spoke out fearlessly on many issues. He provided the leadership he had spoken of\u2014courage with dignity\u2014and he brought New Zealanders with him, to become one of our more revered figures in that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut there was another side to Sir Paul. There was a fearsome sense of humour, and an extraordinary laugh that would break out when a joke was cracked or some funny situation had occurred, which showed that this man not only possessed dignity and a very serious side but had a very warm and personal side, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to recall for the House a particular incident, which I was privileged to be part of, that I think demonstrates all of these things. Members will be familiar with ceremonies in which ambassadors come to present their credentials. One such ceremony occurred with three ambassadors from countries not connected to each other. The only common link between all three was a minimal knowledge of English. We worked our way through the official ceremony, and the luncheon that followed. Sir Paul was at his best, trying to make small talk with people who understood very little other than that they were in Wellington, New Zealand. He tried every known tack imaginable, with dignity and courtesy, and got solid smiles of rebuff from across the table. Finally, at dessert, he said to them: \u201CMy next appointment is to go to a bird sanctuary\u201D\u2014which mean absolutely nothing to the audience\u2014\u201Cto name two new kiwis.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Ckiwi\u201D triggered a reaction in the three diplomatic officials. It was the one word of English they knew, and they sparked to life and said: \u201CAh; kiwi, kiwi.\u201D Sir Paul then turned to the New Zealanders present and said: \u201CYes. I\u2019m going to name them after two famous New Zealanders.\u201D The signs of blankness reappeared on the faces of the audience, and he said: \u201CI\u2019m going to call one \u2018Kiwi Te Kanawa\u2019, and the other, \u2018Kiwi T James\u2019.\u201D, which got a huge reaction from the New Zealanders, but obviously did not really register on the faces of his audience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt summed up for me what Sir Paul was\u2014this man who had carried out his solemn office with dignity and responsibility. He had shown extraordinary courtesy and tolerance to people who were really struggling on the occasion, but at the same time there was a massive sense of humour that he could not resist employing; having a good laugh at the end of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen we think about Sir Paul\u2019s contribution to our national life over the last several decades\u2014because it really has been a very long contribution\u2014we have to recall with pride the vision, the leadership, the integrity, and the commitment, but also the fact that he remained throughout it essentially himself. He never took on airs and graces. He never succumbed to that great Kiwi disease of being up himself. He was a simple man who was confident in his views, confident in his abilities, and sought to do his best for his fellow New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have truly lost one of our greatest citizens. I extend my sympathy to Lady Reeves and the family on their loss, and hope that they can derive some small consolation, at this time, from the knowledge that their husband and father was held in near-universal regard across this country. And that is the ultimate tribute New Zealanders can pay to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3eb6216d497400bbd0adb84df5dae57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3eb6216d497400bbd0adb84df5dae57\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101, e te Kaiw\u2019akaw\u0101. Hoi an\u014D he k\u014Drero ki te kaiw\u2019akam\u0101rama ki te w\u2019akap\u0101keh\u0101 i taku k\u014Drero tuatahi, he tauparapara mai i te k\u0101inga, mai i Muriwhenua. N\u014D reira: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ERuia, ruia, opea, opea,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMiria, miria, tahia, tahia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKia hemo te k\u0101koakoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKia herea mai i te kawau korok\u012B\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKia t\u0101taki mai i roto i te p\u016Bkorokoro whaikaro\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHe k\u016Baka m\u0101rangaranga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETahi te manu i tau atu ki te t\u0101huna, tau atu, tau atu, tau atu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKo t\u014D t\u0101tou p\u012Bhopa kua tau atu ki t\u0113n\u0101 taha, e te iwi, kua tau atu ki t\u0113n\u0101 taha o te moana. Kua tau atu ki tua o te \u0101rai, kua tau atu ki roto i a m\u0101tou o Muriwhenua, \u0101, kua tau atu ki Te Rerenga Wairua. Kia rukuhia i ng\u0101 rimurimu, kia ngaro atu ki Hawaiki nui, Hawaiki roa, Hawaiki p\u0101mamao. N\u014D reira, haere a te p\u012Bhopa, haere, haere, ngaro atu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETautoko kaha ana au i t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 poroporoaki a taku whanaunga a Te Ururoa i huaina mai i ng\u0101 ingoa o r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu i mua noa atu i t\u014D t\u0101tou p\u012Bhopa i te r\u0101 nei. E tika ana kia mihi atu ki t\u014D t\u0101tou p\u012Bhopa i te mea an\u014D hoki, hara tana tohu rangatira i te tohu o te kaha o te reo, o te kaha o t\u014Dna whawhai engari, ko te kaha o t\u014Dna hum\u0101rie. He tangata aroha ana ki ng\u0101 iwi h\u0101koa ko wai, h\u0101koa n\u014D hea. He tangata aroha ana ki a m\u0101tou ng\u0101 tangata h\u012Bkoi ana runga i te mata o te whenua. He tangata tautoko ana i te kaupapa kia whakakahoretia i ng\u0101 mahi kaikiri i roto o Aotearoa, i ng\u0101 w\u0101hi katoa o te ao. He tangata e tautoka ana i t\u014Dna iwi, ar\u0101, ko te pani me te rawakore. N\u014D reira, e tika ana kia mihi atu t\u0101tou katoa ki a ia m\u014D \u014Dna \u0101huaranga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHoki mahara atu ki te w\u0101 tuatahi i t\u016Btaki au ki a ia. Ko te r\u0101 i korowaingia te p\u012Bhopa, hei P\u012Bhopa m\u014D T\u0101maki-makau-rau. I t\u0113nei r\u0101, kua hoki an\u014D r\u0101 a ia ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi i raro i te maru o te whare karakia o te marae o te T\u0101tai Hono i T\u0101maki-makau-rau n\u014D reira, e mihi atu ki a ia, e hoki mai nei ki roto i a m\u0101tou o T\u0101maki, mai i aua w\u0101 ki t\u0113nei w\u0101. N\u014D reira e te p\u012Bhopa, takoto mai, takoto mai, takoto mai. Takoto mai an\u014D r\u0101 roto i a r\u0101tou kua hoana k\u0113, takoto mai r\u0101 ki roto i t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 whare o te T\u0101tai Hono. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMe te mihi an\u014D hoki ki taku w\u2019anaunga a Shane Jones e noho ana ki te taumata i t\u0113nei w\u0101, e w\u2019akarangatira i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 tino pou o te h\u0101hi Mihinare, ng\u0101 tino pou o t\u014D t\u0101tou whenua o Aotearoa. N\u014D reira, mihi atu ki te whanaunga e kawe ana i t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 kaupapa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHoki mai an\u014D r\u0101 ki a t\u0101tou e te Whare, t\u0101tou katoa e mihi ana ki te rangatira o te motu kua ngaro atu i a t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, huri rauna, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. I need to advise the interpreter that the first part of my address is an incantation from home, from the far north, and it goes:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EScatter, scatter, move together, move together\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHug the coast, run in, sweep it\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ELet us rejoice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETie up the chattering shag\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe rope has been stretched out and fastened\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe godwits have risen and flown\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOne has landed upon the beach,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOthers follow and land as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOur bishop has landed on that side, people, on that side of the sea beyond the divide. He has landed amongst us of the far north at the departing place of the spirits, at Cape Reinga. There he will plunge into the tide, the seaweed, and disappear to great Hawaiki, long Hawaiki, and distant Hawaiki. So farewell, o bishop. Depart, go forth, and be lost from view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E I strongly endorse the farewell tribute today by my kin Te Ururoa Flavell, who mentioned all those who had preceded our bishop. It is appropriate that I pay a tribute to our bishop, because he did not stand out for being an outspoken person or a fighter, but rather because of his humility. He was one who loved all people, regardless of who they were or where they were from. He sympathised with those of us who marched in protest across the land. He supported the cause to rid New Zealand and, indeed, the world of racism. He supported his people, the alienated, and the dispossessed. So it is fitting that we acknowledge everything about him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI remember the first time I met him; it was the day when he was appointed Bishop of Auckland. He returns today to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre\u0027s T\u0101tai Hono Marae in Auckland, so I acknowledge his being amongst us in Auckland once again after all that time. To the bishop, I say lie there, rest there, and recline. Rest there once again amongst those who preceded you. Rest in that building on T\u0101tai Hono Marae.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E I acknowledge my relation Shane Jones as well, who is back at the top at this moment and adding to the tributes to this great pillar of the Anglican faith and of our country. My acknowledgments go to my relation for what he is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI come back once again to us in the House, to all of us, as we pay a tribute to the esteemed one of the nation who is lost from us. So greetings to you, greetings to you collectively, and greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3c4535075b04c40a3eae8bc1409f858\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d565afcd0bc4c38a7e4749038dad85c\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb15f2cc91e84dd7b5b522f0a3764a6c\u0022\u003EChildren, Welfare\u2014Policy Priorities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77170dbe8004eb2bf6bfc7e1a08a8e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77170dbe8004eb2bf6bfc7e1a08a8e4\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his reported statement that the needs of children should be balanced with the needs of other New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022534ba98c5b794062b6f39118d0e44879\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022534ba98c5b794062b6f39118d0e44879\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3765da16734fe082b084b5ed578462\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not wrong to pit the needs of our children against the needs of other New Zealanders, because children are the future of our country and every dollar spent on children is a dollar spent on our own future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022003ee91b4853464db7b6a5c5e13d2830\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the Government actually raises an enormous amount of revenue through taxes, and part of the job of the Government is to allocate those resources as and where it sees fit. If every dollar of Government resources was to be spent on children, no resources would be spent on pensions, no resources would be spent on rest homes, no resources would be spent on the environment, no resources would be spent on the health system, no resources would be spent on police, and no resources would be spent on the military.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a66975d96b341859f003ce080329fb4\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that no one is arguing that every dollar in Government spending should be spent on children; rather, that we should not be pitting the interests of children against other New Zealanders because every dollar spent on our children is a dollar spent on our future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229843724109d947fd8e049a2545ffd874\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I was simply answering the question I was asked. But the Government puts a high priority on young people, and that is why an enormous amount of resources are applied towards young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222833a60221564d119bb4ff35c99a6269\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the economic consultancy Infometrics that the cost to the country of child poverty is around $6 billion per year in increased spending in health, welfare, education, and justice, and as a result of decreased productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41787e8a4ba490e901caafb1e7923bb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, can I just ask the member to clarify that the work he is referring to came from the Every Child Counts research done by Infometrics, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602761b3fd114739b5338f21392b671e\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: The work was done by Infometrics; that is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5903e1761e24374ad542f39ef0c641d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It was done for Every Child Counts. Actually, largely I thought the report was rubbish. For a start-off, the data in it was simply wrong: six of the indicators were not available; two of them it got wrong. The data was an indictment on the then Labour Government, because the data was from 2003 to 2005. By the way, although Infometrics was looking at the spending on children, the report did not include health spending, Working for Families payments, or domestic purposes benefit funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227638898b4054d53987fe9921286c645\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203fcb09efd874a96b8a3ea79035e53b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If members had not been interjecting so loudly, they may have heard that a point of order was called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06f49ea4031423588fb773551f5a3fe\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: My question was specifically about whether he agreed with the estimate of the cost of $6 billion per year. There were many other points he could disagree with, but the question related to that cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e332840863ad4935b3f948665ce8af28\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister indicated what he thought of the report, and therefore of the cost. I think that was pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea9faf698a8e4c55a93fc0055cd0f844\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister find it acceptable that under his Government there are still 270,000 children living in poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b240f55c1f44495b318671d332c7a8d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is not my preference. My preference is that those numbers are considerable lower\u2014in fact, my preference is that the number is zero. That is one of the reasons why in the weekend we made announcements in terms of reform of the welfare system, and there will be more reforms to come. The reason for that is that if one analyses that figure of the 270,000 children who are in poverty, one will find that the vast bulk of them are growing up in welfare-based homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274742037491b46a186c17c31060aff20\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: In reference to his welfare announcements, and given his admission yesterday that the Government cannot provide enough teen parent skills for every mum, will his new policy to force sole parents to be in education not involve the forcible separation of 18 year-old mothers from their babies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b66b341b4f4889a7f0a5df0e0590f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. As I pointed out when I made a substantial number of remarks in relation to that issue, we can work with teen mums for solutions that may be in their homes. It may be that a group of mothers gets together with an educationalist providing them with support, or it may be that they go to a number of other courses. Frankly, I am a little surprised that the member does not think it is a good idea that we are asking teen mums, if they are in need of drug or alcohol counselling, to attend those courses, or asking them to attend parenting courses if they would benefit from that. I am also surprised that the member does not fundamentally think that 16, 17, or 18 year-old teen mums should get an education. I am sorry; he might have that view, but it is not shared on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242224e9c946943d0b7c9bcb091551d37\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Prime Minister\u2019s new-found love of education for poor people, will he support the reintroduction of the training incentive allowance so that young mums can get a degree-level course, because we know that when young mums get access to education there are better educational outcomes and better welfare outcomes for their kids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281325955882447cfbe1f9b8d911f1ae4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member needs to reflect on how much this Government is actually spending on education, and the steps this Government has been taking to make sure that that spending, where it can, targets at-need, at-risk young people. One of the things we did in Budget 2010 was cap the amount of expenditure going into early childhood education facilities in terms of their being 80 percent teacher-led, so that we could put $500 million into targeting at-risk young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224037fe4a69d441a87bc5ad004a61802\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was specifically about whether the Prime Minister would support the reinstatement of the training incentive allowance. He did not address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b44d9085ce433a8209350cfa003586\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to have a look at what he actually asked. The start of his question was not in order, but I was not going to stop it because it gave the Prime Minister almost free licence as to how he answered the question. If the member wants to have a particular answer, he must ask only what he said he asked, because he included a whole lot more in his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f743450121da4694b012800ca68b823d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Green Party\u2019s policy priority for addressing child poverty in New Zealand. It was produced by the Green Party this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227251d11002ce47bfaf81e946bd523c96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c3876283db949d6b68df22872f812ad\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Trend Since October 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224fafd3f8f08043788e1fd9086ef3c4e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E2. Hon ANNETTE KING (Labour\u2014Rongotai) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fafd3f8f08043788e1fd9086ef3c4e7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Since the Prime Minister said in October 2009 that \u201Cwe are particularly concerned about high rates of youth unemployment\u201D, what has been the trend in youth unemployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002225e71b70350e401f8d12eeff2b189afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e71b70350e401f8d12eeff2b189afc\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E In October 2009 there were 19,444 18 to 24-year-olds on the unemployment benefit. This peaked in January 2010 at 23,545. In July 2011 the figure was 16,530, so since January 2010 the figure has fallen by 7,000, which is pleasing. In December 2009 the household labour force survey unemployment rate for young people aged 15 to 24 years was 18.4 percent, and it was 17.4 percent in the last quarter. Under either definition youth unemployment has been reducing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227e14d819509444dbab82c9baf86f944\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has she sufficiently briefed the Prime Minister about the high rates of youth unemployment? Because he transferred a simple question about his own statement to her, he obviously does not feel sufficiently confident to answer the question himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a04d663513984cdb9ebe491dac396641\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] I do not think the Speaker does need to get his head out of the sand. The last part of that question was totally out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f14c6be3eb42b6b86945e3f660decd\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cf137a67bef44c39d790dbe1f85fa0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was totally out of order. I just invite the member to look at the relevant Standing Order. Members are not meant to include statements of opinion in questions like that. But the first part of the question was answerable, on whether the Minister had briefed the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efff2be5e7e1468d8909ac5db3b4a0f9\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, of course, if members opposite will put questions in my portfolio area, I am more than happy to answer them. Mr Goff sort of scuttled out of the House a few minutes ago, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227215e95b4ce4d709cf8484101ef78d8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. One out of order part of a question should not provoke an out of order response from the Minister, but, given that both were out of order, I will leave the situation to lie there. The Minister knows that that was totally out of order, but so, I am sure, did the questioner know that the last part of the question was out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272cd55e88a6b42f0993ebc06b3c11d25\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I realise that it is belated and after the fact now, but I ask you to examine and get back to us, possibly privately, and indicate since when it has been out of order to indicate that a question has been transferred when a Minister does not want to answer it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7606677d5474227908474e8d0f6e0be\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members are skating on thin ice here. The first part of that point of order was fine. The last part was totally out of order. To suggest that a Minister may not want to answer a question is totally out of order. It is totally out of order to claim that in a point of order. This exchange will stop, or there will be some consequences. I will leave it at that, but I am serious about it, because points of order must not be abused like that. I allow a lot of licence in questions being asked. There have been a couple of questions asked today that were not compliant with the Standing Orders, but I let them go because I do not want to be intervening too often. There is a limit to what can be allowed by way of a question. That is where I will leave it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e8e42d46de4ac2a42a9fa102202c30\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think I would like to reiterate my request. The question, very carefully, did not go to questions of reasons for the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3db4dd8f550439997e179806e5340d7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question did go to reasons. The question did allege a reason for the question being transferred, and that is not in order. I invite the member to look at the relevant Standing Order\u2014forgive me for not remembering it off the top of my head\u2014371. That is simply not in order. It is Standing Order 371(1)(b), if the member wants to look at the relevant Standing Order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cce17d98b4640e5b5da0404f1cd065d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that the Government declared that the New Zealand recession was officially over on 31 March 2009; and if the recession was over, what has caused youth unemployment to grow by 8.5 percent, or 7,000, since that announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022888db37c9bb742288cd2654aafdf0628\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to indicate to you that there appears in my copy of the Standing Orders to be no Standing Order 371(1)(e). It stops at (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f59dfb35b147469020a141b8a07d9e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said (b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce8cb3e1fd84a588c17d89105fc6cdb\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What we have seen is that those in the age group of 15 to 19 years are still feeling the lags of the recession. They are the last to get into a job and often the first to go off employment, unfortunately. They have low skills. Hence we are putting even more of an emphasis on making sure that they have employment and training opportunities. We want to see them get sustainable jobs; hence we made the announcements that we did on Sunday, putting investment in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a79959c877f438ca13d0d254908e95d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has she told the Prime Minister that long-term youth unemployment has trebled for young people between the ages of 15 and 19 under his watch, and why has the urgency about this huge waste of young life become a priority only 3 months out from the election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038909fff58e48478351844698c1c714\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has invested a huge amount of money into 18 to 24-year-olds, in particular in making sure that we give them work opportunities, and we have seen successes with that. For example, in January 2010 we had more than 23,000 on the unemployment benefit, and that figure is now down to close to 16,000. That is 7,000 people coming off the unemployment benefit. Now we need to look at the transition from school into further education and training, and that is certainly what this Government was concentrating on with its announcements on Sunday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226840a8c83e864668a510e040a6f47b18\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with commentators who have said that the number of young people not in education, training, or employment could now fill Eden Park, and that the situation has reached crisis point; if so, why has the Government announced a policy at the weekend for only 1,600 of the 58,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede1a3be7afc4b13bbbe77cc73175479\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member is actually incorrect. It is not 1,600; it is more like the 13,000 who are in the 16 and 17-year-old age group. [Interruption] Actually, it is. It is those who are in the Youth Transitions Service programme, as well, and it is also those who are on the independent youth benefit. Members need to go back and look at the actual announcements that were made. They are the young people who will get older and keep having unsuccessful lives and careers unless we do something at that age group. It is most definitely the age group to concentrate the most on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b4f20885af4729a7b73489770a16d9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 3, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga. I beg your pardon, Hilary Calvert; is this a supplementary question? There was no way I could hear the member call for a supplementary question, because of the interjections. It is no use pointing the finger across the House, because they started on my left. Admittedly they were added to, but I was watching very carefully, and there will be no more argument about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdaef590ed7843529c9b2b349ee096c4\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that increasing the minimum wage for 16 and 17-year-old people by 33 percent would increase youth unemployment; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d414fa367e461eb34afb0d40881de0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: In all fairness, I have seen a number of different reports, some saying exactly that and others saying it is not having an effect. So it would be fair to say that there is a middle ground there, and that the jury is still out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e6dd72f8ba4860bcc6ea7d629b2688\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: How much would increasing the minimum wage by 33 percent raise unemployment by: dozens, or hundreds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e3682e90da4acfacb6079152024cc8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid I do not have that kind of analysis in front of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dff892b7f214f59b31fa94623533190\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Does she then accept that the abolition of the youth rate, which increased the minimum wage for young people by 33 percent, contributed to the youth unemployment rate skyrocketing to an all-time high of 27.6 percent, nearly double what it was when the rate was abolished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289541d56d5a8478fbbe97a5dd6728e68\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What I do have concerns about is the education and training level of some of the 16 and 17-year-olds who are leaving school too early, and who have not even got National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) level 2. It is very difficult for them to even get into the workforce, and then when they do they are often the first to drop out when we see the kind of global recession that we have seen of late. That is what this Government is concerned about, and that is where we are putting our investment. I think that is a great thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bdcfdda751a490f9887b1731e093632\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked a very specific question. Although she expressed a concern about education, she was specifically asked whether she believed the abolition of the youth rate had contributed to the rise in unemployment. She avoided that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b7b7e65ec7749bca043e4dfe5b6cec2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite Hilary Calvert to repeat her question, because it seemed that it was not actually answered, at all. Hilary Calvert may repeat her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ab9c4c9c394db6be9c0a7df76d3909\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Does she then accept that the abolition of the youth rate, which increased the minimum wage for young people by 33 percent, contributed to the youth unemployment rate skyrocketing to an all-time high of 27.6 percent, nearly double what it was when the rate was abolished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc79f82baf214241add3df1f832caf3d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is possible, but I actually think a lack of education and training, and being left on the scrap heap for many years by the previous Government, which did not pay attention to that group of young people, has had more of an effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d52f4a86210341e593a825ec4f349644\u0022\u003EEconomic Position\u2014Financial Market Signals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9a591c3af974cc7959ddab476cdaa6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9a591c3af974cc7959ddab476cdaa6c\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on what financial markets are signalling about New Zealand\u2019s economic position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b765dd28815847319be20d5a326ac45f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b765dd28815847319be20d5a326ac45f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Financial markets are signalling a growing aversion to continuing to lend to borrowers who have accumulated excess debt. Indebted countries are increasingly being sorted into the strong and the weak, with the weak facing significantly higher interest rates. In New Zealand, our longer-term interest rates have declined steadily over the past 2 years, indicating that we are regarded by the markets as being in a relatively strong position as one of the more creditworthy countries, with a sound fiscal plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe68bdffefeb48f993d8e5fde68363c4\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: How much have interest rates declined over the past 3 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ada1d44a220b446895f2e85455dc4c49\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There are any number of measures one could use, but interest rates have declined by large amounts across the board. Since August 2008, 5-year Government yields\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408fc0ab4bde4d71b87366653b7544d9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Minister. The Hon Trevor Mallard will get to his feet and withdraw and apologise for that kind of interjection, which he knows is totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ecc93325d4426c896e1c094e8f0aaf\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ca4adc9080400983a633da8db8a20d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It does not make the job very easy for the Speaker when I deal with one situation, and another one almost as bad crops up. I ask members to be a little more reasonable, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f67ee6a8b14143bf1c2df8c641cd2d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Interest rates have declined significantly across the board. The overnight cash rate has declined from 8 percent in August 2008 to 2.5 percent today, and floating mortgage rates have almost halved, down from 10.9 percent in 2008 to 5.9 percent today. It looks as if the trend towards lower interest rates for longer will be maintained, as long as we stick with our sensible plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293497ab611a2475c8f9b0cab1bda8dbf\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits have lower interest rates brought to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b2d441e2ed49949de44b8668b34a0c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Lower interest rates encourage investment and, therefore, help to sustain growth, which will give us higher incomes and more jobs, but they also bring direct benefits to borrowers. A family with a floating $200,000 mortgage now pays about $10,000 a year, or $200 a week, less in interest than it did just 3 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf01ff1764c4473bf48251d4f94ab60\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What are the policies that put New Zealanders\u2019 financial stability most at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aacce327230e47d9ad36d09b8c320b87\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: What is becoming clear is that financial markets are becoming increasingly sensitive to both the debt levels countries have and whether they have control over those debt levels. The biggest danger is getting into a spiral of borrowing more money, which helps drive up interest rates, which makes it harder to service that debt and requires borrowing more money. So we would not expect that the world that has lent us so far $170 billion would welcome any economic plans that propose more debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022599fe818a9c046eba0f74f59b34ac6a3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227ebb2f2ec7f2448fbec9a3d3486bee36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ebb2f2ec7f2448fbec9a3d3486bee36\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House for question No. 4 to be set down for questioning after question No. 10 today, so the Prime Minister can answer it when he returns from his urgent public business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220801870c1dc247e3a914cc6cf61f34f4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9892fa2efd425c95055ebb0536e688\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231a7c8f988f349d18affd60507694695\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think I can anticipate the member\u2019s point of order. The Hon Trevor Mallard will leave the House. We will not tolerate that kind of accusation in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfd77ca12e1e48fd8272d06e894351f6\u0022\u003EChildren, Welfare\u2014Policy Priorities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0ef564117ce44f78253c8afb05f5b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0ef564117ce44f78253c8afb05f5b4f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his reported statement that he agrees that the future of some children is at risk but it is a balancing act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002262c6c5c0e42d41918001d4c2681ceb3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262c6c5c0e42d41918001d4c2681ceb3a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fd4d7b9f915486cb12c39ff70b51743\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I will wait for the Prime Minister to answer the question he should\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226633dd9e7c26409481922864634f9d9e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] I am on my feet, and this nonsense will stop immediately. We will not have any more of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ce1a50b67b4049ac13b813cac7f303\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Has he failed that balancing act when New Zealand\u2019s teenage unemployment rate has trebled under his watch and when the Human Rights Commission reports that having 58,000 young people not in education, employment, or training threatens New Zealand\u2019s social cohesion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c6320007ad4dec8c3d385e8d9faeae\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f73295c805483b98091ea7b0fae63f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: With the unemployment rate amongst 15 to 19-year-olds increasing from less than 10 percent when he, the Prime Minister, took office to nearly 28 percent, why has he cut funding for industry skills training by $145 million this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3173709f1dc453b989314c74b1f3d9e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: He has not, but what we have done is insist that there be quality. Recycling young people into substandard education and training opportunities is not doing anything for them. That is something the Opposition was quite happy to see when in Government but this side of the House is not. We will insist that training is meaningful and that it opens up young people to opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dac69a948144e68b5958c9a0a11bf31\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he denying that his Government has cut $145 million from industry skills training this year when he acknowledged that fact last week in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476546227f264fcbbf745e40bd6657b7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We are insisting on quality. The other side of the House was interested in quantity and whether young people were sitting on seats and being there. We are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680959e740654a479844254fdbd543cc\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you will recognise that I asked why the Prime Minister is now denying that he has cut $145 million this year when he acknowledged that fact in answer to a question last week. The Minister has not attempted to answer that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec75e410208b429493e7e71c4c9d36e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Paula Bennett. The question repeated by the honourable Leader of the Opposition is what he asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b575d8e00b44170bf2ddd98f538602a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member needs to look at how he asked those questions both times and see that they justified different answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222926d4ee130d4765a18cce0b28aaba36\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As Speaker I have accepted that the repeated question seemed to me to be a reasonably accurate representation of the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c4f3e5016be438db6eff3b88b383d23\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I was referring to his question last week, not to the two questions today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b495fba425e465aa9ba4c16be8aea30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon. I understand the answer. That is a perfectly acceptable answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216bc47f30a454be2aa7b53eed9be7204\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How does the cutting of 31,000 industry skills training positions and having 1,000 fewer young people in Modern Apprenticeships reduce young people\u2019s risk of unemployment and disengaging from the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bbbdfa74e434bd0baf03725b91bf2f8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I will go back to the original answer. As I was explaining, we need to look at the quality of the training that these young people are seeing. We have repeatedly seen young people being recycled, because the incentives have been wrong. We will demand more from those organisations and more for these young people, and we will make no apologies for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6d268387154e46a47aaca8462abb8e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does he count his young unemployment policies a failure when Statistics New Zealand records that the nearly 28 percent unemployment rate for 15 to 19-year-olds is the highest since the Great Depression; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220514e5eebd1243f58de50fabc2c6e1e5\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Because when one looks at it in bigger terms one sees that for 15 to 24-year-olds that number has gone from 18.8 percent on 11 March to 17.4 percent now. In January 2010 we saw that there were more than 23,000 on the unemployment benefit; there are now just over 16,000. Investment into things like Job Ops has made a difference, with more than 90 percent staying in those jobs and not going back on a benefit. That is a success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258915421e6804400bba0d68e85d22e0a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister therefore saying that Statistics New Zealand has it wrong in saying that the rate of unemployment for 15 to 19-year-olds is the highest since the Great Depression?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab47572f730841ffaea9a84d6f5be8a7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are saying that there are a number of factors. We are putting the investment into young people, where it is needed; 43,000 are going to new jobs created in the last year. There is a lot further to go, but we will get them education and the right sort of training so that they can take up those jobs as they come up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280b7936717174cef8680f8ff88387c8c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that his unemployment policies for young people have failed when the New Zealand Institute reports that youth unemployment rates in New Zealand are the highest of any developed country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4c4b1c79034903b8ac06aab3ca3b12\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: There is room for celebration in some of this. For example, M\u0101ori youth unemployment rates have gone from 30.3 percent in June 2010 to 24.8 percent now. That is still too high\u2014it is still too high\u2014but we are tracking down. There is a long way to go, but 43,000 new jobs last year\u201415,000 of them for young people\u2014is a good start. We will continue to celebrate and recognise the contribution those young people can make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264dd74626ff44f618db0dd0fecc23cbb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is it really a cause for celebration that the youth unemployment rate for 15 to 19-year-olds is the highest since the Great Depression and the highest of any developed country; if so, how is that a cause for celebration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e30c58e3f844dc98dc8420e3cb7623c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what I said. But I will say that this Government is doing something about it. We are putting the investment where it should be, we are recognising that those 16 to 17-year-olds\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff085d17ed0405fb1d1a9e126cfca9d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] It is lucky I did not hear that. The member must not interject while I am on my feet. We will not have any more of that. A question was asked and an answer was being given. It was a perfectly reasonable answer, and the level of interjection made it impossible to hear. If a question is serious, members should want to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c7b58099a24746bdc9f6803be79fba\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We have 16 and 17-year-olds leaving school and no one even knew who they were or where they were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5335bcb250a4e51af95598b6f962d7b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want members on both front benches please to cease this carry-on that we have had today. It is unhelpful. I have already dealt with one member and I do not want to deal with any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220461c276b6804be5886690ed9f63e286\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We have 16 and 17-year-olds leaving school whom no one can track. In all the years under the Labour Government nothing was done about them. We saw them leaving school, unable to be tracked. We were unable to know where they were, and we were unable to make contact with them. We are doing something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ac4fd47ab4f4cb5b2e9312c442e173b\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards, Targets\u2014Shorter Stays in Emergency Departments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00222b67dafeabc24ecb90a2763403442790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b67dafeabc24ecb90a2763403442790\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress have district health boards made towards shorter stays in emergency departments for patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022668a57a7479b482199b7f036b08cfd31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022668a57a7479b482199b7f036b08cfd31\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The latest quarterly health targets, to be released shortly, will show that a record 92 percent of emergency department patients were admitted, treated, or discharged within the 6-hour target. This compares with the endless stories of patients languishing in hospital corridors for days on end only a few short years ago. For example, 2 years ago the Auckland District Health Board was at 70 percent of the target, and it is now at 95 percent. The average time for a patient to get a bed at the Auckland emergency department and go into the ward has dropped from an average of 7 hours and 48 minutes to 1 hour and 18 minutes. Congratulations to the team at the Auckland District Health Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293366f10a0942aa8ed0a1d1486f8085\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits do shorter waiting times have for patients in hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0593db31508431999714e0e623a23c6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: How long patients wait in an emergency department has a direct impact on the outcome of their care and their recovery. Hospitals around the country are being innovative in how they make waiting times shorter. The Canterbury District Health Board, for example, has met the 95 percent target, despite losing 100 beds as a result of the earthquake and the ongoing challenges the board faces, and, for example, a minor injuries clinic at Hutt Hospital has freed up emergency departments for more serious conditions. This is in stark contrast to just 3 years ago, when patients waited to be seen for days and days and days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f2ca0fa886f4263bd2aafd94cb506f1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the criteria for his 6-hour target was met, when Chris Kennedy from Timaru waited for 6 hours at Timaru\u2019s emergency department, and was seen by a nurse who took his temperature and then left; if so, does he think that might make his target somewhat meaningless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f92130b7fec24defb5b8a2a37eeb549c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I would have to check the veracity of that claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11c2de9ef6e410d8adc73aa3be070b4\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198eebe8e69c401a8aa83fc85d82baf8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask members, please; the House is getting very messy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd09a7055b2462683c26bd594404364\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I could clarify that, I think, if I could seek the leave of the House to table\u2014and I know this is unusual\u2014the article from the Timaru Herald of 10 August that outlines the case I raised in my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf23a5cd69ad48018f49a244d156f24c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the document. I do not normally allow tabling from newspapers, but the Minister in answering said he would need to check the veracity so I will put the leave to the House. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8502733e3548bab26237d7bc461200\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I would have to check that, because I recall that only a few weeks ago the member tabled letters, saying that they showed people had been cut from waiting lists, when in fact in researching the cases it was shown they were never even on a waiting list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eaaf4a6d7874fcc98cd98d799fea7c9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You allowed me to seek to table the document because of the Minister\u2019s answer. I do wonder what is available to members when, having done that, they hear the claim repeated by the Minister\u2014which is what he did. I do not know what members on this side of the House can do when Ministers repeat something that is out of order\u2014when they question the word of another member. It is also out of order to interject\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b059600faa4880aa1bda430aac46f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. That is it. Let me just warn members. It is just possible the House may go into urgency. A member thrown out may be out of this House for a long time this week, so I just suggest to members they think about that and behave a little. Grant Robertson has raised a point of order, and the only advice I can offer the member is that it is possible to think of a supplementary question that could tie the Minister down. That is the way, in my view, to deal with that situation. But I acknowledge the frustration\u2014[Interruption] I am on my feet. As Speaker, I cannot be held responsible if there are not sufficient supplementary questions, but that is the way I would deal with that situation. But I do not blame the member for feeling frustrated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225131d66c75442e0a6c7b61b5d9f5fca\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Projected Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002200140a3cc5b24393a326822705e30737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200140a3cc5b24393a326822705e30737\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he asked Treasury to re-estimate the projected sales revenue from his proposed privatisation policy in light of Contact Energy\u2019s share price falling 20 percent so far this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002215497708293941c98eef248bcf2d0d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215497708293941c98eef248bcf2d0d3f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E First, can I correct the member: it is a policy of Government control of these energy companies with a sell-down of up to 49 percent. Secondly, the change in the Contact Energy share price highlights the risks to taxpayers from owning commercial assets. As a rule, Governments are poor at managing these risks. Part of the reason for the share price weakness, I am advised, is that Contact Energy made a rights issue to raise $350 million for a new geothermal plant. This is a key benefit of the mixed-ownership model because it gives companies access to capital to expand without having to come to the Government and compete with schools and hospitals for capital investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baff672c983b4a2799f420f2d7a7c06b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has not addressed the question, which asked: \u201CHas he asked Treasury to re-estimate the projected sales revenue?\u201D. He did not go near that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229704613012be4be3aeb4ea2438125e8f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister could answer that part of the question, it would be helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b93c2d6a2cb4ed49ee4647ef1896daf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b634bba32e43b0a5d01886a62bd582\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219ef21eb5c424e95813036886a82597c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister either sought or received any other advice in respect of either the timing or the total value of the proceeds of his part-privatisation programme in light of the carnage in international equity markets in recent weeks; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208864634c76d4458883211591a4862ab\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the Government is not getting ahead of itself. We have always said to the New Zealand public that we would pursue this policy if we were re-elected. In the context of an upcoming election there is no point in the Government taking advice about whether to float those shares now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b43ab0375ba44feba8946ce0d72c513\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table page 159 of the Economic and Fiscal Update of the Budget, which shows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158fbc64c3ec4c208a0ce358ea73ccb7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member cannot use that tactic to try to make a political point. He must ask a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a798d8158fa4c08b78435578f3bb1b5\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm whether the cash flows shown on page 159 of the Economic and Fiscal Update, which show $100 million capital transferred from the balance sheet into new capital spending in 2011 as a result of asset sales, $650 million in 2012, $800 million in 2013, $1.6 billion in 2014, and $3.6 billion in 2015\u2014estimates of cash flows that, in part, derive from his partial privatisation programme\u2014have been changed in light of the carnage in international markets, or had he not noticed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb8ebd29e384947b5179febab7f18fe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury will, no doubt, update its cash-flow statement in line with its statutory obligations in the run-up to the election. But the member cannot have it both ways. Either these are gold-plated assets with absolutely certain value and dividend streams that he is counting on for the next 10 years, or, as he is pointing out today, they are risky assets whose share prices could fluctuate because their custom has disappeared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649fe7a976e34913ab7ded572e57a30b\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following two positions the Minister has just taken is, in fact, true: that there is no timetable for realising the proceeds from State-owned enterprise asset sales, and that, therefore, there was no need to take advice from Treasury on the impact on those sales of the carnage in financial markets; or that there is a timetable represented by the page I have quoted in his Budget and that, therefore, he should consider those matters, which he now says Treasury will update? Which of those two positions does he hold to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976a8d9ff1aa46159cbccb17df59585c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has stuck to one timetable, which is that if it is re-elected, it will then set out a programme for the retention of 51 percent control by the Government of these companies and the sell-down of 49 percent of these companies to Kiwi mums and dads. The events of any particular week in respect of fluctuations in the markets over the next few months are pretty much irrelevant to that timetable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e73156b31994e089ecf24060dc72e77\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: What other implications has he drawn from recent volatility in markets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1420d82af34401ca041820b49db58d2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The volatility in sharemarkets shows that it would be risky to borrow to invest in share markets, because although that looks like a sound proposition when markets are going up, it does not look quite as sound when markets are dropping or showing considerable volatility. That is one of the reasons why the Government suspended contributions to the Superannuation Fund a couple of years ago, because we did not believe that it was appropriate to be borrowing money in volatile financial markets to invest in volatile share markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c96b9b6099a48cd8cd1124dd3338406\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that New Zealanders, therefore, have three options in regard to his part-privatisation programme: spending thousands of dollars and risking money on the stock market to buy assets they already own; not buying shares and seeing those assets sold offshore, leaving the country more exposed to international markets; or voting out his Government on 26 November?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce49a126f9b42a98e63470bf77f86c8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: They will certainly have the opportunity to vote for or against the Government in an election in November, and I expect they will at that time take the opportunity to vote for or against\u2014probably against\u2014plans for higher taxes, more spending, and excessive borrowing, which is what he is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dca1ad70be04400b6493ca510f73cb4\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms\u2014Youth Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002207fd2781b6ce4da8b90a88f4e37b3505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207fd2781b6ce4da8b90a88f4e37b3505\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What announcements has she made that will invest in young people who are not in education, training, or work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022b30bf8b4cb224fcdb52e5bf92baef836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b30bf8b4cb224fcdb52e5bf92baef836\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We have announced radical changes for young people aged 16 and 17, and teen parents aged 18 as well, which will transform the way the Government provides not just financial assistance but also services to these young people. We have anywhere between 7,000 and 13,500 young people aged 16 and 17 who are not in education, training, or work. It is estimated that up to 90 percent of this group will end up on an adult benefit unless we intervene. We will be intervening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022934857a2cf4349ad8f4369223ff3aab9\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What will be different for those receiving benefits, particularly for teen parents, and especially those living in the electorate of Te Atat\u016B?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3809bb5c0f34b85a39113d04e42b9e8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The other group we are concentrating on a lot are teen parents, including those in Te Atat\u016B. We are moving to a far more targeted supportive approach. It is of real concern to me and to this Government that we have young people with very small babies, who are quite isolated, on their own, and need our support. We are determined to wrap more around them and also help them with financial assistance, budgeting, parenting courses, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa03363c34b49538268bf371aa4d6b7\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. What arrangements will the Government recommend to enable tertiary institutions and training providers to take on more students in order to truly invest in the potential of all of our young people to succeed in education, training, and work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ef9e9b3ffd4650bb09d19c63beb2e6\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, work for teen parents is of particular importance for their education and training\u2014and is also important for young M\u0101ori and young M\u0101ori mums. We are very keen to work with w\u0101nanga, polytechs, and other organisations to make sure that some of those Youth Guarantee places are used for teen parents, and that it is a wraparound service. We see some of it being in homes, but I know that the Minister of Education and the Minister for Tertiary Education have a number of initiatives also encouraging more places for those most vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2a9ec4f88543189fbea21b6f7755e1\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How will providers be working with these young teens, especially in areas such as west Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac816f8448ef46788a64b6c236a5981c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: How non-governmental organisations work with these groups, particularly these teen parents, will really be the measure of the success of the initiatives we announced on Sunday. We can envisage organisations such as the Waipareira Trust, for example, Presbyterian Support New Zealand, or some iwi-based organisations having a wraparound service, particularly with young mums, ensuring that they have education and training. When it comes to the Youth Transition Service and making sure we have those organisations working with it, we see that very much as an investment approach. Less is spent on those who are lower risk, and we are spending more money on those who are higher risk, to make sure there is value, and to make sure that we do not see organisations just picking off the easy kids but that they are wanting to work with the more difficult ones, as well. Those relationships are vital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d7f47612ff84bd1b82a7d4b13452094\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014After-hours Medical Treatment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e479da8493804178ad9faf3c2fa27a83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e479da8493804178ad9faf3c2fa27a83\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by all the statements he has made in relation to after-hours medical services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf2324012529427c880df018a5abf43d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf2324012529427c880df018a5abf43d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Within the context in which they were made, yes. I also stand by my comment that tomorrow I am travelling to Nelson\u2014or I am planning to travel to Nelson\u2014to inspect the potential site of a new after-hours joint venture in that city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650f4fbc806e4debac21cc9056df4510\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Did he say to Temuka Grey Power president Shirley Gilmer that cuts to after-hours services in Temuka \u201Cmight not happen\u201D, when in fact after-hours general practitioner services in Temuka and Geraldine have ceased from today; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5d68a94f934afcba2c3a81e8166b17\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I did have a conversation with that lady. I cannot remember the exact words, but I can say that I spoke to the district health board chief executive on Sunday about this issue. I am told that the district health board is keen to get back around the table with the general practitioners as soon as possible. There is a difference of opinion about the funding that is required for this service, which is not uncommon. In fact, Timaru general practitioners raised problems about after-hours funding in 2007. I can assure the member that people seeking after-hours care in Temuka and Geraldine can access a comprehensive nurse-led telephone triage service, and there is still a doctor providing after-hours care in Geraldine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272b5f84f0bd4b23b903467fc72fb4e3\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that there are now no after-hours general practitioner services available in Temuka and Geraldine from today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a0ddcdde8f444e0a8b0adcc8288f399\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The information I have received is that there is still a doctor providing after-hours care in Geraldine. It is being provided by one doctor who is not in with the Temuka doctors. I can assure the member that alternative arrangements, in terms of the nurse-led telephone service, are in place after hours. There is also a need, I think, for ongoing discussions between the general practitioners and the district health board. The district health board is very keen to see whether it can address the issue in relation to the money and what the expectations are. This is not uncommon in these sorts of negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a04bb42daa140f88cd41891edbe9c79\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister guarantee to the people of Temuka that they will have after-hours general practitioner services, given that from today those services are not available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b29db2f6ae04f1ba860b1505b78776a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not in a position to be able to guarantee that the general practitioners themselves will provide that after-hours service. Nor can that member guarantee that there will definitely be a general practitioner after-hours service. What I can guarantee is that arrangements are being put in place in order to meet the needs of those people. There is still an after-hours general practitioner available in Geraldine, and the district health board is very keen to meet with the general practitioners in terms of addressing this issue. We have put quite a lot of extra money into the South Canterbury District Health Board, and I am sure that it is investing it wisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263757b9eae73446785887b74a58994b0\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Job Creation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00223c70245adf784ddeb7f364d7c54cef93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c70245adf784ddeb7f364d7c54cef93\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does the Government\u2019s policy announcement on Sunday regarding youth unemployment include plans to create large-scale, quality employment for youth in Aotearoa; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002292748bc5b82e4d73859b8b7961da992c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292748bc5b82e4d73859b8b7961da992c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This policy focuses on two main groups of young people, as we have discussed. Firstly, it focuses on those 16 and 17-year-olds who are completely disengaged, 90 percent of whom are at risk of ending up in the benefit system. These 16 and 17-year-olds, by virtue of the fact that they have left school early, are unlikely to be work-ready. The focus is clearly on getting them into education and training, so that they are able to get good jobs that will sustain them long term. Forty-three thousand new jobs were created last year. More are coming, so let us make sure that these young people are ready to take them up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a7c0b7b35c43b28b42d0e70b64f5a5\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the comment that policies that concentrate the wealth of the nation in the hands of the few, driving people into poverty and then penalising them for being poor, are the reasons behind the riots in London; and how long does the Minister think it will be before disillusioned youth in this country take to the streets like their mates in England have done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796fbbaa7e454c6c8c6a920b0645e62a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What we are doing is spending more money on those young people, because we see them as being valuable. We see them as having potential, and we want to realise that potential. That is actually putting the focus on them and making sure that we see that there are those kinds of employment and training opportunities. In fact, we are kind of making those young people valuable, because we are saying to a non-governmental organisation that we will pay it to actually take a special interest in them and connect them into that training and education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210724fbc4065486f915060b48aa1e1b6\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the comment that the Government does not have a policy on full employment because wide-scale unemployment enables it to push for greater cuts in the rights of unemployed youth; and how does she think that forcing young mothers off the benefit and into work will solve the problem of unemployment when there are no jobs and no plans to create them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ce3f8526c743a5bd76797747ec0ecf\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not\u2014not at all. I do believe that what we are currently doing with them is actually abandonment. We are saying to 16 and 17-year-olds, and 18-year-old teen mums: \u201CHere is a few hundred dollars a week, and good luck out there.\u201D I think we can do better than that. I take responsibility for them, and as such I will step up, put a focus on them, and make sure that we wrap the right kind of support around them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022430bd117431d43068475cf15fde9f230\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Playcentre Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00220f829632698f46eca769c4d46b610063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f829632698f46eca769c4d46b610063\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his answers to Oral Question No 12 on 9 August 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c40cf0be4a7f43ffb6dee510f9a56915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c40cf0be4a7f43ffb6dee510f9a56915\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5172e51d7c545acb066b7a72830941b\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister rule out funding cuts of up to 80 percent for home-based early childhood education, proposed by the Government-appointed Taskforce on Early Childhood Education, as he did for Playcentre recently; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542c1ecca5d3416881d63a265ed697f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is in the process of digesting all of the information from the Taskforce on Early Childhood Education, but it is fair to say we will not be accepting all of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022523805f61df24996b13505817de02c7a\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister rule out funding cuts of up to 78 percent for k\u014Dhanga reo as proposed by the Government-appointed Taskforce on Early Childhood Education, as he did for Playcentre recently; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222681513f6d5540bfbcb5d54278e30710\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the Government is in the process of digesting all of the recommendations of the Taskforce on Early Childhood Education, but I would not read anything into that report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89ae6d188f242609a028ddff41fc603\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister has been asked two very specific questions now, about whether he could rule out funding cuts from the recommendations made by the Taskforce on Early Childhood Education. He has failed to rule out those funding cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb273c36d3840f29d8d05df77320b61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have had this issue raised before, and the member will recollect that it is difficult for me to insist that a Minister gives a different answer if, in fact, the Government has not made decisions in relation to a task force report. If I heard the Prime Minister correctly, I think he said the Government was digesting the recommendations and had not made any final decisions. I think he went on to add some views about some things being unlikely. I cannot insist on anything more precise than that, at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cae15e96f8446fdb2f5a50aa2ed39fe\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister give a commitment, then, to the existing rate of subsidy for 20 free hours\u2019 early childhood education for all the children to whom it currently applies, in light of the proposal of the Government-appointed Taskforce on Early Childhood Education to cut funding by up to $50 per child, per week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37800888aaa41b7aa041b668472e52e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as I said last week, we support having the 20 free hours. We are just considering the recommendations of the Taskforce on Early Childhood Education. I am not actually expecting major changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5c6c147a644a829bdeabe9f3289c14\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just a point of clarification, with the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d3d4b93fbb24098bcdc012eef37773b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is no such thing. It is a point of order if the member wishes to raise a matter to do with the order of the House, but there is no such thing as a point of clarification. The member can ask a further supplementary question if she wishes, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022306c75e32e7a4dcabbff7f5bdb003fc9\u0022\u003EResource Management Act Reforms\u2014Role in Infrastructure Upgrade and Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00222ebfb1431894466790ff309ff633b31f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ebfb1431894466790ff309ff633b31f\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: How have the Government\u2019s amendments to the Resource Management Act assisted in upgrading New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure and how have they supported economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002299f1fc9218744deeafed824dd3e0503f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f1fc9218744deeafed824dd3e0503f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E A major change was made with the introduction of national consenting, which enabled major projects to be considered by a single, time-limited, robust process. The new process has worked successfully for the $1 billion Tauhara stage two geothermal power station, the $2 billion Waterview Connection project, and the $420 million Wiri Prison. I contrast this with projects like the Northern Gateway Toll Road project, which took 10 years, and the Wellington inner city bypass, which took 15 years. The Environmental Protection Authority yesterday received two further significant applications. The first is from New Zealand King Salmon for a plan to double its production in the Marlborough Sounds, which would generate over $100 million extra in export earnings. The second application received yesterday by the Environmental Protection Authority was for the $1 billion Transmission Gully motorway, north of Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cdaf48952fc427fa21c36f7a573b18b\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any feedback from submitters or objectors on the robustness of the new national consenting process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56c2f259af34faa95ff435ff4bb4336\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. A letter to the Environmental Protection Authority from the Auckland Volcanic Cones Society was very complimentary of the process, saying that the Environmental Protection Authority had done a thorough and fair job, and \u201Ca fairer hearing has been achieved than under the old system\u201D. I also note that both cycle advocacy groups and local residents affected by the Waterview project were also quite complimentary, saying that the board listened fairly and understood their concerns, and that although they had preferred that the project not proceed, they accepted the decision. These comments are a tribute to the two respective boards. These positive comments also reinforce how the new process is fair and is delivering timely results for infrastructure and economic development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022623204d15e5d42d3817bf9db47b723c6\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment and Job Creation\u2014Prime Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7786c1c2f0f429580bf9817e1a61489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7786c1c2f0f429580bf9817e1a61489\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement in relation to job creation and young unemployed people that \u201Cthe most important thing is to not necessarily link the two because they\u2019re quite different things\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6a790447524c4ca37e9c9cee0a9ac2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6a790447524c4ca37e9c9cee0a9ac2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I do, because I think the statement was actually in relation to job creation vis-\u00E0-vis welfare reform for young people, which we were talking about in the weekend. They are in one sense different. But I stand by my full statement, which said: \u201CWe need to create jobs, and that\u2019s all parts of the economic reforms for which we have a plan, everything from the tax system right through to investment infrastructure, but the most important thing here is not necessarily to link the two because they\u2019re quite different things.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224127f5c38714079b8cde252092844de\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What part of his announcement on Sunday included investment in \u201Csustainable jobs\u201D, as stated by his Minister for Social Development and Employment in the House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b65f0c2d3b045ef94135694979e6d78\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things is ensuring that young people\u2014and we are talking about the 8,500 to 13,500 people who leave school between 16 and 17, are not in education, work, or training, and not engaged in any of those activities\u2014have a wraparound provider and get those skills. That is the clearest way to make sure they can actually go into work, because if we do not do that, as we know, 90 percent of them will go on a benefit. The member is now part of an Opposition that supports keeping those people in that way and putting them on a benefit; this side of the House does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74aec1d52324165817053e31245b076\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister for Social Development and Employment said today that the Prime Minister\u2019s announcement on Sunday included investment in sustainable jobs. I sought clarification from the Prime Minister about what part of his announcement included sustainable jobs; he did not make any reference to my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f41a22b925444989f85e746a364ea00\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The difficulty in my trying to intervene with a question like that is that I cannot be expected to adjudicate whether that is a fair reflection of what the Minister for Social Development and Employment said, so the Prime Minister picked up on the part of the question he could make sense of. My dilemma is that I cannot adjudicate on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ffd5d60c6ed4b8e8e9225394fd2c63e\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What is the time line for Cabinet\u2019s consideration of a youth wage rate, which he indicated on Firstline this morning would occur?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d02603f7ab64d6f8755bd1925e17287\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Within the next 2 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228586f23d1a994e9ea67f3ffd44b9674d\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received on how many of the 27.6 percent of unemployed young people will move into work as a result of his announcements on Sunday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226009b24a4c324f9997a08e8a5a7f27e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure of the answer to that at this point because I have not seen any analysis, but I think it is worth doing a couple of things\u2014that is, to make sure we fully understand what we are talking about here. If one looks at those on an unemployment benefit in New Zealand, one sees that that number for young people aged 18 to 24 has actually dropped from 23,545 in January 2010 to 16,363. The member actually quotes the household labour force survey, which relates to people who are indicating they are looking for a job. The member nods, and I appreciate her agreeing with this point. Sixty percent of unemployed people listed in the household labour force survey aged 15 to 19 are at school or university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354a7b26a7c8463088300cc93f16af43\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a spreadsheet from Statistics New Zealand, which shows that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1aa04512437462787c3f89d4ffc35ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a311615dddf74073876d4afe2f5d1d2c\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: \u201423,900 15 to 19-year-olds\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e06c1ff5f0764208a90499ded6704017\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member heard me calling order because I wanted to identify for the House the source of the document from which this table comes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb7641b1adf4abc8063496c20911f79\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Statistics New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228006f364f9514b4089ee13e9b936c7c9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Statistics New Zealand has regular publications, and if it is a publication that is readily available to the House we do not table it. I am just trying to make sure that the member is not trying to get around a convention we have established. Is the member assuring me that this is not part of the regular Statistics New Zealand releases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223972c830b3034f0eba023bb892b7152c\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: It might be an early publication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8e030486424664bb160787f12daaf6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The thing is: how can we seek leave for a document if we do not know the source of the document? When the member says it might be an earlier publication, either the member knows what document this table is from, or she does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573bc4ed908a4042bfe4df446d5cdf83\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Just for clarification, it came via the Parliamentary Library. I cannot be sure whether it has been published publicly as yet via Statistics New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249a6b127b478441190af2fd1699fe916\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s explanation. Leave is sought to table this document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d6039e1109c46388d62194a44333e05\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab938c02ad274e38abf54e06e58daa58\u0022\u003EWithdrawal from Chamber\u2014Hon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00227b9f9a63219345edb60f8414d427519c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b9f9a63219345edb60f8414d427519c\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to raise with you the issue of Mr Mallard\u2019s being asked to leave the Chamber. I have no difficulty or problem with your decision. You asked him to leave. I accept that he transgressed the rules, and that for that there should be an appropriate punishment. But what I would ask is for you, Mr Speaker, to think about the time for which Mr Mallard has to be out of the Chamber. There are things that some people know and others do not, and it will be a difficult week. The point I would like to raise, Mr Speaker, is that you contemplate setting a specific time for Mr Mallard\u2019s return. It is not unreasonable for the Speaker to do so; it has been done on a number of occasions. Standing Order 85 says that the member can be excluded for a period \u201Cup to the remainder of that day\u2019s sitting\u201D. It does not mean that you are obliged to have the member excluded for the whole of the day\u2019s sitting; you can impose a time at your will and at your discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI would suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that it would be appropriate for Mr Mallard to be excluded until, say, 4 p.m. today, after which he would be free and able to return. I do so because I believe that there could be some unintended consequences and unforeseen consequences if he was left out of the Chamber for the whole day. To support this, I say the House has an agenda for this week, which I am sure everybody wants to get through. I would suggest to you the words of a former President of the United States, Lyndon Baines Johnson, who made reference to the fact that it was better to have people inside the tent than outside the tent, because that made life a bit easier. So I would just suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that it would be very helpful if you were to set a particular time. I am sure that Mr Mallard is contrite, is remorseful, and would be sufficiently well punished if you said that he could come back to the House at, say, 4 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00229d646962e09d40dfb27008b54055d8da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d646962e09d40dfb27008b54055d8da\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the goodwill in which the member, the Hon Rick Barker, raises the point of order. Let me make it clear that up until now I have not asked many members to leave this Chamber\u2014only three, in fact\u2014and they have been out for the day. That is why the period is a sitting day of the House. I do not muck around. I tolerate a lot of what I consider to be unacceptable behaviour, but when the limit has been reached, so far every member whom I have asked to leave has been out for the day. That is why I warned members that the day may be a little longer\u2014may\u2014than they might have anticipated. I will reflect on the matter, because that possibility may have escaped the member\u2019s attention. I will reflect on the matter, but I will not make any decision right now. At the moment the member is excluded for the day. But I will reflect on the matter and advise of any change to my decision in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287e61331b56a46b78f06db452b527cef\u0022\u003ELegal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214ea5a93756d409fbe0fd004ae00d558\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022554ab4a7c478425f8959d4ea921b673c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022554ab4a7c478425f8959d4ea921b673c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill be referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill marks the next step of the Government\u2019s legal aid reform by addressing the financial sustainability of legal services paid for by the Crown and, of course, directly by the taxpayer of New Zealand. New Zealand\u2019s current legal aid system is unsustainable and unaffordable. Legal aid expenditure increased\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3696aae9f8547079ad2aa0a4ce6c5df\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Members leaving the Chamber, please do so and show some courtesy to the member who is trying to address the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072d9d70a770478496d719820361ddd1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. Legal aid expenditure increased by 55 percent between 2006-07 and 2009-10. Over the 5 years to 2014-15, this growth was expected to result in a $402 million gap between the forecast and the baseline funding. The Government had to act to bring this growth under control. In April I announced a balanced package of changes that would begin to bring legal aid expenditure under control. The package involved changes to how legal aid services are purchased, the eligibility criteria for legal aid, and payments received from legally aided persons. This bill implements those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill will strengthen the legal aid eligibility test by tightening the merits tests for family cases, reducing the discretion to grant legal aid to people whose income and assets are above the financial eligibility thresholds, ensuring that people who can afford to pay for their criminal defence do so, and removing the requirement to index financial eligibility thresholds to movements in the consumer price index. The bill will increase the contributions received from legally aided people and better incentivise the repayment of legal aid by introducing a $100 user charge for most family and civil cases, and charging interest on outstanding legal aid debts. Furthermore, family and civil matters for which legal aid can be granted will be put into a schedule that can be amended by Order in Council. This will provide the Government greater flexibility to manage legal aid eligibility in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill will make changes to lawyer for the child and youth advocate schemes to ensure that there is greater consistency across Government-funded legal assistance schemes. The changes include extending the quality framework for legal aid providers to child and youth advocates, and requiring parties to contribute to the costs of the lawyer for the child services. Extending the quality framework will ensure that lawyers providing lawyer for the child and youth advocate services maintain and continue to provide high-quality legal services. It will ensure consistency between the Government-funded legal aid, lawyer for the child, and youth advocate schemes. Requiring parties to contribute to the cost of lawyer for the child services will help ensure that the services continue to be available and are financially sustainable into the future. This change is expected to recover approximately $15 million of the cost of providing these services over the 4-year Budget forecast period. The bill also makes small changes to the Legal Services Act 2011 to improve its operation and address issues that have arisen during its implementation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThese changes, along with other changes that do not require legislation, will reduce forecast legal aid expenditure by $138 million over 4 years. However, they will not meet the full funding gap. The Government will consider further changes in the coming months to bridge the remaining gap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe legal aid budget is under extreme pressure. The changes in this bill are vitally important to secure the financial sustainability of the legal aid system. They will ensure that legal aid is sustainable and will continue to be available for the people who need it most in the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b66c60b38d8e4662b715aac6f4ea4ff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b66c60b38d8e4662b715aac6f4ea4ff3\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I hope that the Minister of Justice does not have cause in the years to come, after he has left this House permanently, to regret the last paragraph of the speech he has given. He gave us an assurance that the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill would not deleteriously affect those most in need of assistance from the Crown when they are accused of a crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI want the House to be very clear about what we will be doing today if this bill is read a first time. The bill is couched in very comforting terms. It sounds innocuous: \u201CWe are just reviewing thresholds.\u201D, \u201CWe\u2019re applying the civil threshold to minor criminal matters.\u201D Nonsense. We are doing something much more Draconian than that, and I will spell out what this bill will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223666907edec14c81b162f9c9dfb824c7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Ooh, that\u2019s scary! I\u2019m shivering in my boots!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d59312e0f164d0da3d9a6faa9219b52\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Henare might like to read the Crimes Act, because when his constituents come to him in his office and say that they cannot get legal aid because the Government has removed their entitlement to it, I wonder what he will tell them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EHere are some of the offences that will now be put beyond the entitlement that people have to legal assistance. All that needs to happen is for someone to be accused of one of these offences, and there will be no entitlement to assistance if they earn more than $22,000 a year. That is National\u2019s new definition of the rich. Most of the offences in the Summary Offences Act are covered. Crimes Act offences covered include distribution of indecent material, indecent acts in a public place, criminal nuisance, misconduct in respect of human remains, concealment of the dead body of a child, injury by unlawful act, aggravated assault, assault with intent to injure, assault on a child or by a male on a female, common assault, possession of offensive weapons or a disabling substance, unlawful use of interception devices, unlawful disclosure of private communications, and the making, possessing, and publishing of intimate video recordings. The list continues: theft of property worth under $1,000, attempted conversion of a vehicle, being in disguise or in possession of instruments for burglary, the receiving of stolen property worth under $1,000, and the making, selling, distributing, or possessing of software for committing a crime. There are many more offences under the relevant legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThese are serious offences, and if somebody is accused wrongly of one of these offences\u2014and we all know that it happens\u2014and they are earning over $22,000 a year, then they will not have anywhere to turn as of right for assistance with their defence. What will they do? They will plead guilty. They will go to jail. Innocent people, as a result of this legislation, will go to jail\u2014as if we were not locking up enough people in this country already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255a4fe37b0984354aeea04ba4bdcb87f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Another conspiracy theory by the loony left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e150dbff030c41faa637c315d83c1970\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Henare, again, what he will say to his constituents when they come to him and say that they do not have a bean, that they are accused wrongly of a serious offence, and that they cannot get any help. That is what Parliament will be doing today if we pass this legislation. Let us not be in any mistaken frame of mind about what this proposal will mean in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt goes further than the criminal side because it deals with civil matters as well, and it imposes that savage threshold of $22,000 a year in income. Again, that is the definition of rich according to Mr Power\u2014I myself think that that is pretty rich. If Kiwis are earning $22,000 a year, they will not be eligible for legal aid in civil matters unless there are exceptional circumstances. What will happen if someone\u2019s neighbours are sued and they do not earn very much? They will need a lawyer to help them out. If they are wrongly sued, if they are named in a civil action but they should not be a party to that civil action, they will not be able to get assistance to defend themselves. Again, that is what the effect of this legislation will be. It is unconscionable. People who through no fault of their own are caught up in civil proceedings, and who do not have enough money to defend themselves, will be in no position to avail themselves of the services of a lawyer to get them out of that position. That is not a position that this Parliament should ever countenance putting any fellow Kiwi into. It is shameful, and we should reject the propositions contained in the legislation that will advance that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThere is another matter that I am troubled about in respect of the civil justice provisions in this legislation. It is in respect of applications for personal care, protection, or welfare issues when there is a vulnerable person like a child at risk, a person at risk of domestic violence, a mentally ill person, or a refugee. The restrictions already discussed will apply to those people, as well, when they need to seek legal aid in order to make an application in respect of their personal care, property, or welfare. Admittedly there are some hardship provisions in the legislation, but, again, let us be in no doubt about the effect of this legislation. Vulnerable people who need to instruct a lawyer in order to seek the protection of the courts\u2014a fundamental right of anybody in New Zealand\u2014will be prevented from doing that by this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022827128e0f99e46b9986fe7bc80ccbd01\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, mate. Sit down now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a2c0bec28a4f9384e08c2494914501\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: No amount of yelling, screaming, and interjecting by Mr Henare will change that sad fact. I hope that he does not vote for this legislation, because we all know which most vulnerable New Zealanders will be adversely affected by these provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIf that were not enough, a user charge is contemplated in this legislation. We heard from the Minister that it would be $100. The bill provides that if people cannot pay $100, then they will be able to pay interest until such time as they can. In the calculation of people\u2019s net value to determine their entitlement to seek legal aid from the Government, guess what will be taken into account under this bill. It is people\u2019s personal items of clothing, their household furniture, their household appliances, and workers\u2019 tools of trade. They will all have to be put into the mix when people fill out the form used to decide whether they are poor enough to get legal aid from the State when they have been accused of a crime and want to defend themselves, they have become party to some civil litigation and want advice on how to get out of that, or they are vulnerable people who need to seek the protection of the court. I think we should be ashamed of these provisions. Applicants will have to say what their vacuum cleaner is worth, what their couch is worth, and what their jeans and jackets are worth. This is the sort of level that we have sunk to under this Minister and this Government when it comes to something as fundamental in this country as access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, there is a provision concerning family law. As members will know, when there is a relationship dispute and a child is involved, the court appoints counsel to represent the child. This bill will require the parties to family law disputes to contribute to the costs of that counsel. What if they cannot afford to do that? Does this mean that they will have to suffer substantial hardship, or, alternatively, that the child will miss out on representation, a fundamental part of the system as we know it in family law cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Minister talked about a crisis in the funding of legal aid. I sat in the former Minister of Justice\u2019s office 4 years ago when she was meeting with the president of the Law Society after the previous Government had increased the legal aid entitlements available to lawyers for the first time in 20 years. It was not a lavish increase; it was a modest one. It just about kept enough providers in the system to continue to provide the services that were required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe can do better than this. We can do better than make savage cuts to the rates of entitlement at which people who need access to justice can, with assistance from the State, access that assistance. We can do better at recovering grants of aid by treating that aid as more of a loan than a grant. There are many, many other ways that we can be fiscally responsible while ensuring that we retain people\u2019s access to justice as a fundamental right. I implore the House to consider those alternatives rather than to pursue this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00229603cb7764084e0fad016148a24951c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229603cb7764084e0fad016148a24951c3\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill. Drawing on experience as a police prosecutor and, later on, a criminal legal aid lawyer, it is interesting to see a tension between wanting to live in a country where we supply people accused of crimes the ability to draw on legal services free of charge, so that they can make an adequate defence, and at the same time recognising that those costs come at a cost to the taxpayer, so there needs to be some control on them. Decisions that are made, from time to time, in respect of policy mean that some of those costs blow out. It is also true to say that probably no one is more unduly maligned within the criminal legal aid system than the lawyers who are prepared to work as criminal legal aid defence counsel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is, though, timely for the Government to take stock of where legal aid is going in this country, and to try to account for the Budget responsibilities it has. National wants to make sure that legal aid is available for those who need it, while ensuring that it remains affordable in the future. Budget 2011 included $103.5 million in short-term funding, while longer-term sustainability issues were addressed both through this bill and through a wider review of the Family Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Charles Chauvel, made a number of very salient points in respect of the delivery of legal aid in the society in which we want to live. There is a huge disparity, for instance, between the amounts of money that are supplied for Crown legal representatives and for those who are supplied, on behalf of the taxpayer, to those accused. Both bills are met by the taxpayer, but for some reason there is a huge disparity there. That is just one of the many issues that will need to be investigated. I also accept that there are many creative ways in which we can do it. This bill seeks to do a number of those things, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2378e1b3a5c4d21ae8b4bf1283e6613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2378e1b3a5c4d21ae8b4bf1283e6613\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Charles Chauvel has said, we have concerns about the Government\u2019s overall direction in respect of its justice policy, which inhibits access to justice and creates the potential for substantial miscarriages of justice. For that reason\u2014and I will explain in more detail why\u2014we will not be supporting the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELabour believes in an accessible justice system, and we have serious reservations about the direction of the reforms in the justice system under this Government. This bill essentially rolls back the expansion that was made under Labour in 2007, making it harder for people to access lawyers. At that time, legal aid had not been reviewed in two decades, and the then National Opposition criticised the Labour Government for not making enough legal aid available. Labour introduced a new repayment and debt management scheme, which is where the focus on sustainability should be, rather than on penalising people on low and modest incomes who genuinely need a lawyer and need to be able to access legal representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe changes encourage legal aid applicants to consider whether they wish to proceed with litigation. This may dissuade people from pursuing a justified case, limiting a person\u2019s right to access justice. The current means test will be modified in the case of offences that are not punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment above 3 years. The Minister of Justice has indicated that the threshold will apply to those earning $22,000 for a single adult, and $51,000 for an adult with two dependants\u2014and $22,000 is not a lot of money. To deny that access to anyone who is earning $22,000 or over does not seem to anyone on this side of the House to be very just. In fact, we fear for the ability of those people to get representation for themselves in respect of the legal matters that they may be confronted with. We are concerned that this may force people into representing themselves in court, increasing the chances of miscarriages of justice. I am sure that other members in the House would agree that our general, everyday Joe Bloggs would not necessarily have the skill set to represent themselves effectively in court, if required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe cut to legal costs by significantly expanding the Public Defence Service, at the expense of independent lawyers providing legal aid, is a concern for us. The latest review of the Public Defenders Service in England and Wales showed that the Minister\u2019s solution to expand the Public Defence Service will cost the taxpayer considerably more than it does currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515383bae8cc4eac98945e034c2d9bf2\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not in England or Wales. This is New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b7271f23c04fe28f028ffb10913ef0\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bridges probably does not recognise that often in these matters research is required, and we look overseas for examples. I was just citing those examples. Although Labour supports the existence of the Public Defence Service, as it was initiated under our Government, we believe that independent lawyers should provide the bulk of criminal defence work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe lack of balance in what the Minister is proposing will lead to a lack of quality in terms of legal defence options for Kiwis facing charges. The quality of our justice service is certainly in question after 2\u00BD years of the National Government being in charge. Furthermore, the Government\u2019s plan for the Public Defence Service, along with the denial of those charged with category 1 or 2 offences to choose their own lawyer, restricts choice for individuals. Those who have a history, particularly in mental health issues, may be forced to have a lawyer who does not know them, the disadvantages they face, or the full state of their circumstances, and perhaps will not have enough time to investigate in order to provide a comprehensive defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe Minister, Simon Power, has not made available the figures for actual costs, including all administration, set-up, and expansion costs. There needs to be greater transparency to improve access to justice for all New Zealanders, and unfortunately we are not seeing that under the National Government. The Ministry of Justice asserts that criminal legal aid is the highest expenditure area, and that it is steadily increasing. However, criminal lawyers are rarely the initiators of legal actions; therefore, if there is increased use of legal aid lawyers, arguably it is also because the number of charges in summary and indictable offences has increased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhen the legal aid reforms were announced, Mr Power said: \u201CWe cannot continue to ignore the substantial cost pressures the system is facing, particularly at a time when New Zealand is being forced to borrow an average of $300 million a week.\u201D The Government gave $2.5 billion in tax cuts to the top 10 percent of earners. I think we need to keep that in mind, in light of Simon Power\u2019s statement. The Government gave $2.5 billion in tax cuts to the top 10 percent of earners. Meanwhile, people earning over $22,000 will now find it tougher to access legal aid, even if faced with a criminal charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI think we are seeing again where the Government\u2019s priorities lie. The money could have been put in place to ensure that justice is accessible to all Kiwis\u2014to all New Zealanders. Instead the Government now cites financial difficulty and the fact that we are currently borrowing so much money as reasons to cut access to justice for the vast majority of New Zealanders, yet the Government can still give $2.5 billion in tax cuts to the top 10 percent of earners in this country. Again, I say that that really shows what the National Government\u2019s priorities are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EImplications for those charged and facing bail are that duty solicitors will apply for bail on behalf of a defendant only in a category 1 offence; if a defendant is waiting to get legal aid, or cannot get legal aid, then he or she may not be able to have successful bail; and innocent people may have to spend some time in jail because of the timing of the application while their access to legal aid is being examined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the merits test for granting family legal aid is to encourage parties to resolve more minor matters themselves. Most parenting applications already require parties to undergo counselling and mediation before there is a hearing in court. Legal representation ensures that parents are aware of all of their legal obligations. The changes to legal aid provisions to deal with the rising cost of family legal aid grants disregard the changing landscape of families in New Zealand. So we have some major concerns with the legislation that we have before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs I said at the beginning of my speech, Labour will be opposing this bill because of the concerns we have about the Government\u2019s overall direction with regards to its justice policy, which really does inhibit access to justice and creates the potential for substantial miscarriages of justice. That is what we will be looking down the barrel of, going into the future, if this legislation is passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOverall, the bill amends the Legal Services Act 2011 and other Acts to limit the number of legal aid grants and to increase the amount legally aided people must pay. The bill also limits eligibility for legal aid, reintroduces a user charge for civil and family legal aid, and enables interest to be charged on legal aid debts. Our concern is that at a practical level, in terms of people\u2019s real-life experiences, we will see people who earn $22,000 or over, which is really not a lot of money, losing what in this country they fundamentally have a right to, and that is justice. They will no longer be able to afford it, and there will be cases where because a person cannot afford it, that person will be forced to represent themselves in court. That in turn will increase the chance of a miscarriage of justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill, and we hope our colleagues across the House will see some sense and join us in opposing it also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f72254ef41e346b183ca09e912f1d794\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f72254ef41e346b183ca09e912f1d794\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill purports to be about sustainability. By that, the Government means financial sustainability, not the sustainability of justice. The bill seeks to amend an Act that the Government passed into law this very year. The bill is unique, in my experience in this Parliament, in containing no statement of purpose; the purpose is set out in the explanatory note and in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThe thrust of the bill is to curtail the burgeoning cost of legal aid. The cost has grown substantially in the past 3 years, and the current level is held to be unsustainable in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b634a6456e714759998fdcf388f29539\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Shame on Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223113de8afae44d409759febbb917259f\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: The level of legal aid expenditure, we are told, has shot up in the past 5 years. Since 2005 it has increased 13 percent per year, with a 23 percent increase in 2009\u2014shame on National. The gap between forecast expenditure and the Budget baseline is widening\u2014further shame on National. The bill would amend the Legal Services Act 2011 to ensure that the legal aid system remains affordable in the future\u2014good on National\u2014and available to those who need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWe heard Chester Borrows mention the need to strike a balance between justice and efficiency, and that that was a difficult balance to strike. He spoke about creative ways of trying to find that balance, and then fell silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EThere are three major drivers of legal aid costs pertaining to a grant: the price, the number, and their repayment. The options for managing future expenditure were assessed by the Government in its preparation of this bill according to three criteria: cost efficiency, impact on recipients, and impact on services provided. We have gone through the bill rather hastily, since it appeared on the Order Paper only last Thursday\u2014shame on National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207bfd73e4ce24aea88c555f2663d68fc\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What were you doing all weekend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224727bae784064c72b041a1943b10cbf9\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I did, among other things. As we see, there are eight specific provisions, and they are as follows. Clause 5 relates to criminal matters eligible for legal aid. The effect is to bring the representation of the offender in eligible proceedings before the New Zealand Parole Board within the class of criminal matters. Clause 6 addresses the threshold of eligibility for criminal cases. It applies the means threshold that already applies to civil and family cases to cases in the criminal summary jurisdiction. In such cases, the Legal Services Commissioner must refuse to grant legal aid if the applicant\u2019s income or disposable capital exceeds a certain threshold\u2014and we hear it is $22,000, which is very low\u2014with only a few exceptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWe move to clause 7, which adjusts the special circumstances for consideration of the means test for family and civil cases. The effect of the change is to focus on expensive cases. Then we have clause 8, which pertains to vulnerable parties, and which tightens the merits tests for family cases by removing the criterion to take account of the interests of other vulnerable parties. Clause 9 ensures that eligible civil cases can be amended by Order in Council on the recommendation of the Minister, thereby diminishing the prerogative of this Parliament. Clause 10 reintroduces a user charge of $100 for family and civil cases, thereby imposing further financial strain on litigants\u2014shame on National. Clause 19 specifies the nature of the user charges. Interest can be charged, and the clause removes inflation in the form of the Consumers Price Index as a factor in assessing eligibility levels of income and disposable capital. So the ability to keep pace with the cost of living as a factor in eligibility is removed. What dare we say? Finally, clause 20 addresses a defendant\u2019s disposable capital that can be factored into determining eligibility for legal aid. These factors are now to include household furniture, household appliances, personal clothing, and tools of trade. So in the Government\u2019s shameful notion of a compassionate society a defendant can literally lose the shirt off his or her back to pay for a legal defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EIn short, the bill will have the result of limiting eligibility for legal aid, limiting the number of legal aid grants, increasing the amount of legal costs eligible people must themselves pay, reintroducing the user charge for civil and family legal aid, and enabling interest to be charged on legal aid debts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EWhat are we to make of these changes in the name of judicial cost-cutting? For the sake of budgetary constraint, the defendant in the New Zealand judicial process will have less access to legal assistance than before. I note the conclusion in the regulatory impact statement: \u201CThe introduction of income and asset thresholds for the criminal means test will be in tension with section 24(f) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, providing for the right to an affordable defence. It could also delay some court cases if judges defer proceedings because of inadequate representation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EApart from that judgment, the bill might be seen as also impacting on other sections of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Section 23(1)(b) requires that we shall have the right to consult and instruct a lawyer without delay and be informed of that right. Section 25(a) refers to the right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court. Section 27(1) states: \u201CEvery person has the right to the observance of the principles of natural justice by any tribunal or other public authority which has the power to make a determination in respect of that person\u2019s rights, obligations, or interests protected or recognised by law.\u201D Mr Bridges might do well to refresh his memory of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f8df727a7a046ef94921cd6aee0c07d\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Which section?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f655802bdc0545c986bbddfc0c7c68f0\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Sections 23(1)(b), 25(a), and 27(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6ed1eccfa84c4685b8a5914eb66bcc\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: What are those ones about? Remind me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd31e99c398485487e4f6e466a7dfc4\u0022\u003EDr KENNEDY GRAHAM\u003C/span\u003E: The member was not listening. Mr Bridges needs to listen, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003EIn the Green view, the need to cut budgetary cost does not justify the measures envisaged in this bill, which will have the effect of depriving people in tough circumstances of their traditional legal rights of access to justice. It is, in fact, no laughing matter. It is, in short, a punitive bill. We shall be opposing this bill, and, assuming it is referred to a select committee\u2014which is not guaranteed\u2014we shall be following it to see whether and how improvements can be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u002232d324c687be41dc8a0708320fe61889\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232d324c687be41dc8a0708320fe61889\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. There is a Chinese proverb that suggests that if we do not change our direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed. In the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill, it is very clear that the Government is dramatically changing the policy direction, but it is unclear exactly how this will change outcomes for the people who matter most: everyday New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere is no question that expenditure in the current legal aid system is not sustainable. As other speakers have noted, expenditure on legal aid rose from $111 million in 2006-07 to $172 million in 2009-10, which is a massive increase of 55 percent. Ostensibly, this bill is designed to prevent such gross expenditure. It is designed to save $138 million over 4 years, but, of course, the fiscal costs are but one aspect in the debate on social justice and how it is experienced by all groups of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill limits eligibility for legal aid, reintroduces a user charge for civil and family legal aid, and enables interest to be charged on legal aid debts. In doing so, it amends the Legal Services Act 2011 and other Acts to limit the number of legal aid grants and increase the amount legally aided people must pay. As a general principle, the M\u0101ori Party cannot support the move made in this bill to apply the guillotine to certain aspects of eligibility without bearing in mind the advice of Dame Margaret Bazley and her observations on how legal aid is used to support the claims and cases of M\u0101ori and Pasifika peoples. The Legal Services Agency report into legal aid applications reveals that a significant number of applications for legal aid were received from M\u0101ori\u2014a total of 37,337\u2014and also from Pasifika peoples, at over 8,000. When we compare this number with the 40,000-odd applications from P\u0101keh\u0101, it is evident that M\u0101ori and Pasifika families have seen much value in the support offered by legal aid. An overriding, major concern for the M\u0101ori Party in coming to this bill, then, is that M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples feature strongly amongst those most likely to experience problems that require legal assistance. Arguably, if the legal aid system fails M\u0101ori, then it fails altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI am acutely aware of the wisdom gained in the report Transforming the Legal Aid System by Dame Margaret Bazley. In this report, she identified that M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples appear to face barriers in accessing legal aid, in addition to the barriers faced by other eligible people. She also recommended that the legal aid system needs to focus on the legal needs of M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples and the barriers they face in accessing legal aid, with a view to enhancing their access over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI return to the proverb I referred to earlier: if we do not change our direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed. Is the direction we seek to reduce the numbers of Maori and Pasifika peoples eligible for justice? Or is it about the creation of a fairer and more just legal system that would respond equally well to the needs of M\u0101ori and Pasifika New Zealanders as it does to any other group of New Zealanders? If the latter direction is what we seek for ourselves, then, surely, instead of restricting eligibility criteria and limiting eligibility to only that referred to in accordance with new schedule 1A, we might be looking more broadly at what is preventing M\u0101ori and Pasifika peoples from benefiting from due access to justice. Specific concerns we might then turn our attention to would be the barriers M\u0101ori and Pasifika peoples face, including a narrower merits test for family cases. We might focus on the reintroduction of the $100 user charge for certain cases and whether this will in practice act as a barrier to all groups being able to access legal aid fairly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAs a former lawyer, I am, of course, aware that M\u0101ori are overrepresented as legal aid users, but I am just as aware that far too many of our wh\u0101nau are limited by affordability issues. So although the suggestion to require parties to contribute to the cost of lawyer for the child services to encourage the early settlement of cases might look good on paper, it will not be easily enacted in a way that makes sense for wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat ironic that in a bill supposedly promoting justice\u2014and, therefore, access to justice\u2014measures are being introduced that could actually be counter-productive. I refer to the introduction of compulsory repayment orders and the proposal to charge interest on all debts, which in effect will mean that many of our families will go further into debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party recognises that there are some useful parts of the bill, which we support. In particular, we support the opportunity for certain recipients of grants to be exempt from the requirement to pay a user charge. The exempted recipients are certain claimants to the Waitangi Tribunal, parties to proceedings under the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989, applicants for protection orders or orders relating to property of the Domestic Violence Act 1995, patients or proposed patients in proceedings under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992, care recipients in proceedings under the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act 2003, victims in respect of inquests or hearings before the Parole Board, and applicants for recognition as a refugee or a protected person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe support this list of exemptions of what might be more commonly referred to as cases involving vulnerable parties. The nature of cases referred to\u2014including mental health matters, the care and protection of children, and domestic violence\u2014are legal aid areas that M\u0101ori tend to be overrepresented in, so we welcome the opportunity for their needs to be considered. However, as a general focus, our commitment as the M\u0101ori Party is to support the human rights of all people by ensuring their access to justice. We cannot be confident that this bill achieves that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe promote restorative justice systems where victims are empowered and where community involvement in the justice process is enhanced. We do not consider that the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill enables these goals to be realised. As such, at this first reading we will be voting against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002291686da48af646a4b0867c3f34cba100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291686da48af646a4b0867c3f34cba100\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E The Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill is a very good illustration of what was wrong with Labour in Government and what is right with National in Government. We see in this bill a Labour Government that wanted and paid for champagne while living on a beer income, that took legal aid costs in this country up 55 percent since 2006, and that left us with a funding gap in this country, if we do not do anything, of $402 million over 5 years. That is many schools, hospitals, and other social services that this country needs. So I say shame on Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ENational has an approach to make this sustainable, so that the people in need who need legal aid in this country get what they need and we make the legal aid system sustainable for the long term. As we have done in other areas like accident compensation, as we are doing in the early childhood education sector, and as we are doing in welfare, we are making sure that these important social services are sustainable for the long-term betterment of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe are responsible in this Government. We are not trying to have champagne while living on a beer income; we are trying to cut our cloth to suit the circumstances of this country. In this bill, as I say, we have an illustration of a National Government that is making very good stewardship of what it has, as opposed to a Labour Government that increased all the costs without any clue as to how to pay for them. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022e00bb75482e0497ab01179b596974912\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e00bb75482e0497ab01179b596974912\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I join colleagues in rising to speak against the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill. I will comment on some of the points made by the previous speaker, Simon Bridges. Given the level of Government debt that National inherited when it came into power\u2014that is, zero Government debt\u2014I think that for him to say that the previous Labour Government had a champagne lifestyle is somewhat ironic. Particularly ironic are his comments about having to make important services sustainable because of tough economic times, when the Government has cut taxes for the wealthy, which has led to blowing-out debt problems in this country. I honestly think it is absolutely extraordinary that that speaker can get up and make those sorts of comments without flinching. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ELabour members oppose this bill. We have concerns about the Government\u2019s overall direction in the justice area. We believe that this bill will inhibit access to justice\u2014that is a very real risk with very significant consequences\u2014and that it has the potential for substantial miscarriages of justice. My colleagues Carmel Sepuloni and Charles Chauvel have outlined that very carefully, as has the Green speaker Kennedy Graham. This Government has one response to issues. That response makes it look like it is reacting to particular problems, but it is actually not about substance; it is all about image. Instead of dealing with the reason why legal costs may be increasing, which is probably that more people are being charged with crimes\u2014and I ask what is underlying that\u2014this Government says that costs are blowing out. It needs to be seen to be doing something, so it will cut access to legal services. Well, that is just unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThere are other alternatives, and I want to touch on some of those, but first and foremost I say that all members in this House should all be concerned about accessible justice systems. Every citizen of this country has the right to fair legal representation in order to defend themselves, to ensure that they are not unjustly convicted or unjustly imprisoned. That should be something that each and every member of this House is committed to. Concerns about tensions with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which Kennedy Graham outlined, are very serious matters that, again, every member of this House should be worried about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EEssentially, the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill will introduce higher levels of means testing and limit what can be covered by legal services. If the bill passes its first reading\u2014and a number of parties are saying they will vote against it\u2014it will go to the Justice and Electoral Committee, which I am on. I, along with my colleagues, will certainly be scrutinising the bill very carefully and encouraging people to make submissions on it, because there are some very serious risks with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWhen Labour was in power it introduced a new repayment and debt management scheme, which is where the focus on sustainability for legal aid should be. The focus should be on making sure that we can manage repayment and debt management so that it is sustainable, rather than penalising low and modest-income people who genuinely need a lawyer, in order that people can access legal representation. It is a fundamental part of our justice system that people have the right to representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the Public Defence Service as well, because that was initiated under Labour and has been used by the Minister of Justice to justify some of the changes here. We are very concerned that this has been done in a way that is not transparent, not evidence-based, and not looking at the real costs. At the heart of the so-called reform that we are talking about here is the proposal to ramp up the Public Defence Service to take up over 50 percent of criminal legal aid cases in Auckland, Hamilton, and Wellington, and later extending to Tauranga, Hastings, Dunedin, and Christchurch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EAs I said, that scheme was initiated by Labour, so it is not that we do not support the Public Defence Service. We believe in a balanced system, and that must continue to include access to legal aid and legal assistance from private lawyers, as well as the Public Defence Service. It needs to have those checks and balances in the system. We are concerned that the Public Defence Service has been looked at as a cheaper system that will be a way of managing costs, but, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ELooking at the figures from the Legal Services Agency annual review it seems that, in fact, the average cost of a case under the Public Defence Service was $1,612, whereas the average legal aid bill per case from a private practice lawyer over the same period was $1,343. In other words, the Public Defence Service cost $269 more per case than a private sector lawyer. Labour members support funding the Public Defence Service, as well as resourcing private sector lawyers and bodies like community law centres adequately. If the right balance is struck between each of these, they can provide a useful check against each other in terms of cost and quality. We need to ensure that everybody, irrespective of their income, has access to fair representation\u2014good-quality legal representation\u2014to ensure that they are not unjustly prosecuted, unjustly convicted, or unjustly imprisoned. So it is really important to get this right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThere was reference earlier to England and Wales, and one of the members opposite scoffed at that and said: \u201CWell, we\u2019re in New Zealand.\u201D, but evidence-based lawmaking warrants us looking at what is happening in similar jurisdictions with similar services. The latest review of the Public Defender Service in England and Wales shows that Minister Power\u2019s solution of a vastly expanded Public Defence Service will cost the taxpayer considerably more than it does currently. There needs to be proper transparency around the costs of the Public Defence Service, which is what we are seeing muddled here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI also agreed with Charles Chauvel when he said that the provisions in the bill are being presented using very comforting terms such as \u201Cmaintaining access to service\u201D and \u201Cbalance\u201D and all of that, and I have heard them from members opposite. Charles Chauvel listed a number of very serious offences that would be beyond assistance for offenders earning more than $22,000. Nobody in this House could argue that that is a substantial income. That is an absolutely pitiful level of income and it would be very difficult for someone earning that to afford legal assistance. Some of the examples he gave were various assault cases, offensive weapons cases, and concealing dead babies\u2014very serious offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EHe also talked about\u2014and I thought this was really important to repeat\u2014this bill potentially seeing children missing out on representation, because it requires the parents in those cases to contribute to the cost of independent legal representation for children. We all know, sadly, that in many cases when children get in the middle of legal disputes adults are not doing the best thing for children. For Labour, children are at the centre of what we are doing. We must get it right for our children, and that includes ensuring that all children have independent legal representation, irrespective of the income of their parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOther things in this bill that worry me are the ability to further change and restrict by regulation\u2014that is outlined in the provision about placing additional civil matters on the schedule\u2014and the removal of the requirement to index means thresholds so that over time they will become even lower, if you like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ELabour members believe in justice and opportunity for all. We think it is important to get a balanced package, whereas this bill is a short-term response. It is the Government being seen to be doing something, in the same way that it has reacted to things like industry training. The Government is being seen to do something, rather than dealing with the real issues. That was also the case with loan sharks. Again, 3 months out from the election, the Government suddenly needs to be seen to be doing something. It is a short-term response by the Government, having done nothing of substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI think there are some very serious matters here. Again, I repeat the concern about tensions with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and I would say that the consequences are important. I acknowledge Rahui Katene for raising the issue about potential consequences for M\u0101ori of this legislation going wrong and limiting people\u2019s right to justice. I recently visited Arohata Women\u2019s Prison and was absolutely appalled and shocked to find out that 84 percent of the women in the prison are M\u0101ori. There is something wrong in our justice system, and making it hard for people to get good representation will make that worse. We need to be serious about dealing with the causes of crime and with issues like poverty, jobs, and training. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022c41224bd3126446c8680be54ec11ac28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c41224bd3126446c8680be54ec11ac28\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill is to amend the Legal Services Act 2011 and other Acts. The bill makes changes to the provision of legal aid services by the Crown, including aid and lawyer for the child and youth advocate services. The legal aid system helps to uphold the principles of, and access to, justice. It helps to uphold equality before the law and natural justice, which helps to build and maintain public confidence in the legal system. This Government, led by the Rt Hon John Key, is committed to ensuring that the legal aid system remains affordable in the future, and that legal aid is available to those who need it, and to the victims of crime and domestic violence. The current system is unsustainable. The cost has increased by 55 percent since 2006. If no action is taken now, then the gap in legal aid funding will grow to $402 million in the next 5 years. It gives me pleasure to commend this bill to the House on its first reading, and I look forward to working on it in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec245223e0e847feb619c85372fe37fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec245223e0e847feb619c85372fe37fc\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It will come as no surprise that, along with my colleagues, I too oppose the Legal Services (Sustainability) Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the sterling speeches made by members on this side of the House and also the contribution from the Green Party. It is really sad that a former speaker\u2014and I am not attacking him because I know he was speaking from speech notes\u2014used the term \u201Csustainable\u201D. That seems to be the chant and the cry from National. We know that the definition of sustainable, which is not the definition we would find in the dictionary, in terms of this Government, is just clearly about cuts. Why would I say that? Let me tell you why, Mr Assistant Speaker Roy\u2014well, not just you but I want the whole House to know why I would say that \u201Csustainable\u201D means cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a3f0a74e934de3b69b86ae447abe38\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re all ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aff487f00134f1aaab1f930829a13e4\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Paul Quinn is all ears, and usually is when I am speaking. That is very good; he shows respect, so that is really good. When do we hear the term \u201Csustainable\u201D from the Government? We hear it when it is justifying its cuts to ACC. When we see its cuts to ACC, it says that the current form of ACC and services that it provides are simply not sustainable. So what did the Government do? It ruthlessly cut the services to ACC, whether it is relating to victims of sexual abuse, the most vulnerable people, whether it is getting people back to work, whether it is assisting people in terms of avoiding injuries\u2014all of those things were cut because they were unsustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhen again do we see the cuts? We see the cuts to KiwiSaver, because it is no longer sustainable. We see the early childhood education cuts. The building blocks for our children\u2019s future have been cut. Why was the Government not just honest, by saying: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to put our money in this particular area. We just want to give it in tax cuts to the wealthy.\u201D? No, Government speakers used that term again: \u201CIt is not sustainable.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that Simon Power will be leaving Parliament and I would have thought that his swansong, his final action before he leaves, would have been something really progressive; that it would have been something members on this side of the House would celebrate. We know that Simon Power is certainly by no means amongst the worst on the Government benches. In fact, I would go so far as to say in this House that he would be up there amongst the best of what some would say are a motley lot, but certainly I know that others on the Government side would not say that. He is certainly not someone whom we would expect to use the term \u201Csustainable\u201D to cover what are actually cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about cuts in terms of legal assistance, it is really serious. All the cuts in the name of sustainability that I spoke about before were serious and have a very dramatic effect on people, whether it is children\u2019s ability to have access to quality early childhood education, whether it is about people\u2019s ability to save, or whether it is about people having their rights and entitlements as were originally designed under ACC. All of those things are really important. But what we are talking about in this case, in the name of sustainability, is cutting access to justice. That is at the very heart of our democracy. If we ask any New Zealander what they hold very dear, it is the ability for anyone, of no matter what means, to have access to justice. Unfortunately, this bill takes New Zealand backwards in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWe note that there is more expectation of community law centres. I acknowledge, as I have many times in this House, the work that community law centres do throughout this country. I do not think anybody would argue, and I do not think there would be any dissent, about the work they do. We see a Minister who wants a greater role for community law centres, but it just cannot happen if those law centres do not get the resources they need to handle more work. We already have the Minister on record, telling community law centres that there will be no more money. We see community law centres\u2014such as the one that I know of in Waitakere, and I know it is the case in most places throughout New Zealand\u2014that operate on the sniff of an oily rag. They provide a fantastic service. This Government is saying that yes, they are doing a great job and it wants them to do more, but, by the way, there is no more funding. So that will not work, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhilst we are talking about this, I see Chris Finlayson in the House and I know he will not be surprised if I relate a couple of things. The Domestic Violence Reform Bill, which was introduced under Labour, is still languishing on the Order Paper, very near the bottom, and I think that is a severe disservice. That is another area where the Minister has let us down. That bill is still on the Order Paper, and instead we have seen some measures that certainly improve conditions for victims of domestic violence, but they have been introduced in a piecemeal way that do not complement each other and do not give complete protection. So that is another area that we are very disappointed in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI refer to the Sentencing Council. Members on this side of the House know that if under Labour there had been a Sentencing Council, as Labour was very keen to have and as was recommended by the Law Commission, then we would have enhanced sentencing processes in this country and that would be a very good thing. But instead, no, this Government, instead of working on improving the justice system, has rolled back the expansions that Labour did in 2007, making it harder now for people to access lawyers. I remember that when Labour was in Government, we were criticised by National because we were not making enough legal aid available. It seems pretty bizarre that following that, National gets into Government and in the name of sustainability introduces a new repayment and debt management scheme that penalises low and modest income people, in terms of accessing legal aid. How is it that a single person who earns $22,000 a year or an adult on $51,000 a year with two dependants will not, under this regime, have access to legal aid? That is appalling; that is absolutely appalling. There were high-income earners who received $22,000 in tax cuts a few months ago, yet this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b71732d7cf49d9a376f4454c0fb7a7\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c507875b8b134a518f8ebe0afc8a6d74\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not rubbish. This Government is now saying that $22,000 is ample money for somebody and that they do not need access to any legal assistance. I think that is very, very unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the public defence scheme, because, as members of this House will be aware, Labour initiated that trial\u2014initially in Auckland\u2014and we support the concept. But there is a lack of balance in what this Minister is proposing. We are concerned that by cutting access in the name of sustainability to people and then putting more resource into the public defence scheme, which Labour does support, there is going to be an imbalance there. We are hearing information from countries\u2014quite recently there were some reports in terms of England and Wales\u2014that a vastly expanded public defence scheme will cost the taxpayer considerably more than it does currently. What worries me is that if that is the case, then what else is this Government going to do? It has already considerably lowered the threshold for people\u2019s access to legal aid. My concern is that this is going to deprive New Zealanders of their access to justice in this country and that is not a good thing. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u00223503c3285ae946b3a5522bea6204814c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223503c3285ae946b3a5522bea6204814c\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E There is much on the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill that I could talk about, but I will take just a short call because, as Opposition members have alluded to, this is a starting point. From here the bill will go to the select committee, and at the select committee we will listen with intensity to any issues that are raised, and consider those in our deliberations, which I am sure will improve this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EWith those few words, I say that I look forward to receiving this bill before the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014a very hard-working select committee where the work never stops and the candle never goes out. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00227b693e42901e4af6845a921606b89554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b693e42901e4af6845a921606b89554\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a slightly longer call than Paul Quinn on the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill, because I think that member summed it up, really, when he said that the select committee will consider this bill at great depth. I am proud to be part of a party that opposes this bill. I think this bill is simply dreadful. I say too that I am sure that in Cabinet there have been vociferous debates about the great reformer of the legal and justice sector, Simon Power, who, until this bill and another one that is now languishing well down on the Order Paper, tended to get most of the reform agenda in law probably pretty well on the button. But we on this side of the House are really opposed to this bill. The reason why is that it inhibits access to justice and then creates an incredible potential for substantial miscarriages of justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI know that the Attorney-General, who is very focused on proper access to law and due process, is probably very disheartened by this bill slipping in before the election. He knows, with his great criminal law mind, that lawyers around the country are saying of the great crusader for, and reformist of, legal justice that he has gone too far\u2014that he has gone too far with this bill. It will impose substantial miscarriages of justice, and I am really worried about that. Justice must not be denied to those who are going through the court process. I think even calling this bill the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill is absolutely a crock. This bill is about capping access to justice and capping access to legal aid because of the cost implications for this Government. It is not about sustainable funding. If it was about sustainable funding, it would have put a focus on the front end. Those who go before the courts need advice on debt management and how to actually manage their finances, rather than to have their access to justice capped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EOne of the aspects of this bill that I feel most incensed about is the means test, which will be modified in the case of offences that are not punishable by a maximum imprisonment term of 3 years. The Minister has indicated that this threshold will apply to those people who earn $22,000 a year. Wow! Are people who earn $22,000 a year really going to be the bar, so that people earning above that level can no longer have access to legal aid? That will rule out many people in the communities in which I live and work who find that through access to legal aid they are encouraged to pursue their right to a robust justice appraisal of their case. It is ridiculous to say this means test will encourage legal aid applicants to consider whether they wish to proceed with litigation. For goodness\u2019 sake! People who earn $22,000 a year want to prove that they are not guilty. They cannot afford to engage a lawyer, so they go first to the community law centre. They go there first and say: \u201CWhat do I do? I have got a charge. I can\u2019t defend myself. I don\u2019t have the means to speak for myself and defend myself, though many do. I must have legal aid to help me.\u201D To put that bar at $22,000 a year for a single adult is offensive, and to put it at $51,000 a year for an adult with two dependants is absolutely outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe bill talks about affordability, and I understand what National is really saying: that people should do more for less, and that legal aid is a \u201Cnice-to-have\u201D, not a \u201Cright-to-have\u201D. Justice needs to be seen to be done, and to say that there could be a user-pays element in terms of justice provision is offensive. This is as offensive as user-pays was in the decade when National brought it in for the health system. Now it has a user-pays philosophy for access to justice, and on this side of the House we find that to be absolutely offensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI also say that the cut to legal costs by significantly expanding the Public Defence Service at the cost of independent lawyers is a concern. It has pressed a button right around the country. When we go around meeting lawyers, they say that this service is offensive to trained, professional lawyers who are not rorting the system. They can see that a public defender service is a way of saving money. Already we have the example that when such a service was reviewed in Wales and England, the review showed that it actually cost the taxpayer more. So when is the National Government going to look at what are effective justice measures? What are cost-effective justice measures? They are about paying for experienced lawyers who know how to work the system for their client so that justice can be seen to be done. They are usually the most experienced lawyers in the country, not junior lawyers who are learning through taking legal aid cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI find this bill absolutely offensive. Family court lawyers are going to find it is offensive. The Government\u2019s introduction of this bill 12 weeks before an election, in the hope that it can just slip it in on the Order Paper and get it off to a select committee so that its members can go out there and say \u201CWe members of the National Government are doing great things about reforming the criminal justice process in New Zealand.\u201D, is an embarrassment. It is an embarrassment of riches for us in the Opposition to now go around the legal fraternity and say \u201CHave a look at this bill. See what they are proposing now.\u201D Lawyers are already offended. They are already offended by the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill, which I see is another bill of the great reformer, Simon Power, that has slipped down to No. 18 on the Order Paper. Why is it at No. 18? Because National cannot get the numbers needed to get that bill through the House. It does not have the support of the M\u0101ori Party, the Greens, or Labour, and National knows that. It has lost on that one, and it will lose on this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis is another offensive bill. It is not a little bill; it actually has huge implications for access to justice principles in this country, which we in Labour hold dear. We will be making sure, through our networks of lawyers around the country, that they know about the provisions proposed in this bill. As Mr Quinn said, yes, it will go to the select committee, and I think the Government members will be astonished at the reasonable and outraged response they will get on this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9ee62cbbf954722a31a2304eea92c67\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000426\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 63, Noes 57.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000427\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee. \u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293698c63c5264cb5be8657c0e4beec6d\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Law Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1d7dd43c70f4c5ba2463373af9923bb\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022633cfb1932044e90a019c1a624255eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022633cfb1932044e90a019c1a624255eb8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill be now read a second time. I am pleased to see that this important bill is back with the House, because it will help to strengthen the biosecurity system in New Zealand. I start by thanking the Primary Production Committee for its work. The committee received over 40 submissions on the bill, and I thank submitters for taking the time to provide their input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EOne of the key areas for submitters was new Part 5A of the Biosecurity Act. This part contains the enabling provisions for the development of the Government-industry agreement for readiness and response. This is an agreement under which the Government and primary industries will make joint decisions about harmful organisms that are of concern to an industry. The decisions can cover how best to prepare for the possible arrival of a harmful organism and how best to respond if the organism does appear in New Zealand. The parties will also agree on how to share the costs of their jointly agreed activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that a number of submitters expressed concern with the overall proposal to develop the Government-industry agreement. It is important to understand what the benefits of the Government-industry agreement are. Introducing joint decision-making and combining it with cost-sharing will ensure that the resources that are available for biosecurity readiness and response are used to address the highest priorities. It will also improve the level of preparedness for a biosecurity incursion, and increase the capacity to deal with such incursions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see that the committee has recommended a new purpose statement for Part 5A. The new purpose statement is contained in new section 100S, and it captures a key point: that the Government-industry agreement is all about working together to achieve the best possible outcomes from readiness and response activities. The agreement is also about sharing the costs of agreed activities. This is important, because meeting some part of the costs ensures that decisions reflect the true priorities of the decision makers. Although this principle is important, the Government is aware of industry concerns about the affordability of some activities if the cost-shares are based strictly on the breakdown between public benefits and industry benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Government does not want cost-sharing to lead to a decline in this country\u2019s state of readiness or capacity to respond. For this reason we have agreed that the Government will pay at least half of the costs, regardless of the exact split between public benefits and industry benefits. If analysis shows that public benefits are significantly greater than industry benefits, then the Government share would obviously be more than 50 percent. This approach will greatly simplify how costs are shared, as for many pests and diseases the cost-share will simply default to a fifty-fifty split between Government and industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI turn now to another area where the bill deals with important relationships between different players in the biosecurity system. This is the area of pest management. The pest management amendments in the bill emerged from a significant project that involved the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and other interested parties, including the Department of Conservation, regional councils, industry groups, and M\u0101ori. The project produced a national plan of action for improvements to the pest management system, and these improvements include amendments to the Biosecurity Act. One of the most important amendments is the new requirement for the Crown as a landowner to meet its obligations as a good neighbour. The Government has carefully considered the position of the Crown, and accepts that pest management programmes should not be undermined by the Crown being exempt from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u201CGood neighbour rules\u201D are defined in the bill, and one part of the definition is that the rules must comply with the national policy direction. The national policy direction is a new measure that the bill provides for. It will set out some key requirements that will help to ensure that pest management is carried out effectively and efficiently, and that the \u201Cgood neighbour rules\u201D do not impose unreasonable costs on the Crown, or on any other landowner, for that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces a number of new tools that will help to provide for more effective and efficient border biosecurity. One example is the new duty for importers to take reasonable steps to ensure that risk goods comply with the requirements set out in import health standards. This will help to promote the idea that biosecurity risk should be managed by those best placed to manage it. Another example is the clear legal framework for the use of information for risk profiling purposes. This will help to ensure that resources are used to best effect in dealing with the most significant biosecurity risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESome of the new provisions relating to the border, when seen in isolation, caused nervousness to some submitters, and the select committee has responded to these concerns. I am happy to see the changes that the committee has recommended in relation to outcome statements in import health standards and post-clearance requirements. In both cases the recommended changes provide more clarity about when it is appropriate to use these tools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe bill makes many other important improvements that I can note only briefly. These changes relate to areas such as marine biosecurity, the new FarmsOnLine database, and the options for dealing with non-compliance. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00221cba0a81f5274f21a9ec8c09c6429db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cba0a81f5274f21a9ec8c09c6429db5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is indeed a pleasure to rise in the House to speak on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. It is interesting that in a recent KPMG report\u2014a survey of all of the key agribusiness leaders across the country, asking them what were the issues ahead of them, into the future\u2014the No. 1 issue all of them identified was biosecurity. So it is important that, whatever changes we make, we improve the system, because this economy still relies on biological production for its wealth. Any threat to that production has to be taken seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill has been in the development stage for a long time; it goes right back to when Labour was in Government. When there was the incursion of varroa mite we identified a lack of planning and coordination between industry and Government. So the concept of a Government-industry agreement was developed then, and that concept has been carried forward into this bill. What concerns us, of course, is that the first Budget that the incoming National Government put in place cut $2 million from the MAF Biosecurity New Zealand front-line budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f40a22bf86b492c9a540a6c329bd47c\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5fbaf5d3b04f5eaea684257657a2eb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It was $2 million, and 58 to 60 front-line jobs. We thought that was pretty dumb, I have to say. The Government put up the argument: \u201CWell, we\u2019re facing a recession and the number of imported goods is reducing.\u201D In fact, because of the value of the dollar a fairly steady stream of imported goods was coming into this country\u2014in fact, far too many\u2014at the same time as the Government had cut front-line border security. The Government has relied on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb7b99074b244c1a9d0785bef9de75a\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Cut out 55 of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba5f8f8557b34240abc5b5e740e64b70\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It was 55, exactly. I think there was some debate at the time as to how many would lose their jobs. We had assurances from the Government that things were OK, and that we had less volume of goods. Well, the Government has said for some time that the recession is over, and the economy is on an upward trend. But we have not heard of one more person being appointed to front-line border security services. Since that time the Minister of Tourism, who is also the Prime Minister, has put forward SmartGate, which is a passenger clearance system between New Zealand and Australia. So people can just walk off the plane from Australia, straight through into New Zealand, the theory being that there has been a risk assessment done while those people are on the plane; the officers have even worked out whether their bags should be checked. So those people can walk off the plane and straight into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere have been major concerns in areas like Tauranga and the Bay of Plenty where the new air services into Rotorua could potentially bring a fruit fly straight into Rotorua, over the hill, and into some of our key regions. The fact that they are facing another huge biosecurity risk through Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) does highlight the fragility of our economy, and the Bay of Plenty is reeling under the threats and the reality of Psa. We are not quite sure how far that threat might go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Minister in his speech went through the bill and identified a number of key areas. I also acknowledge the chairman of the Primary Production Committee, Shane Ardern\u2014who I have always said should be the Minister. He did a very good job, and there was non-partisan analysis of this legislation. The one thing we agreed on was that in too many cases the legislation that came before us was very, very permissive\u2014that is, in my simple assessment the trade boffins in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry had ruled over the biosecurity boffins. So we had to tidy up a number of areas. The Minister acknowledged that changes were made by the select committee, and that is great; that is the way the process is supposed to work. My question, though, to the Minister, and to his biosecurity boffins, is why did they put before the select committee a bill that, without amendment, would have seriously threatened front-line biosecurity in this country? We have made some adjustments and improved the bill, but my suspicion of the thinking behind it begs the question of how they will interpret this legislation when it is applied. There is much left to interpretation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe come back to the question of what is driving biosecurity thinking under the National Government and under that Minister. I would say it is a softly softly, \u201Ctouchy-feely\u201D approach. They do not want to offend the Australians, because they want to let them in. They do not want to check their bags and they do not want to ask them the hard questions. So they do some kind of risk assessment analysis on some computer screen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe need the toughest, highest level of biosecurity of any country anywhere in the world, because we rely on biological production for our well-being. God help us if foot-and-mouth got into New Zealand. We would be struggling, as an economy, for so long. We have already faced a very serious threat with Psa in the kiwifruit industry. Foot-and-mouth would be that threat times 10. Fruit fly would be that threat times five. In fact, we have identified a fruit fly larvae in this country, and who knows how it got in. We have identified honey that has not been checked. It was found right inside our economy, available to bees that might fly in and out, and it is potentially a serious risk. We do not have the best front-line system in the world, but the Minister and his officials say that we do, as they go around the world. They say we have a very high level of control, but if we identify the incursions that we have on a regular basis one would have to say that all is not well. Although it is impossible to have an absolute position\u2014that nothing will come in\u2014we have to try harder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAlthough supporting the legislation into the House and voting for it at this particular time, the Opposition flags that we will continue to talk with industry people to make sure that any amendments, if necessary, can be put back into the House in the Committee stage and improvements made. We do not believe that this bill is as good as it should be. We do not believe that Government-industry agreements\u2014GIAs\u2014will provide a fair go for small sectors of the primary industries whose total gross export earnings are not huge but have the potential to grow. It might be feijoas, avocados, small industries perhaps at this point, but with the potential to really grow. A risk assessment by MAF Biosecurity New Zealand under this bill might deem them to be insignificant, and therefore the obligation of the Government to step in and help fund measures to combat an incursion might disappear. The Government might walk away. We do not want that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe need to ensure that we have a robust system, but without changes this bill would not be robust. I think it is better, but it still has some way to go. We are in active consideration of the bill, as reported back by the select committee. We will be working with industry players and bringing some amendments to the Committee where we think that improvements can still be made. One of the industry players emailed me and said they would like to slow this down and anything we could do to hold it up would be great, because they still want to go through a double and triple-check. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf it takes longer for the bill to go through the House, I make no apologies for that. I do not think that anyone on the select committee\u2014although I am not sure about those within biosecurity or about the Minister\u2014would want to make a mistake with this legislation. I do not want to get into the technical details of outcomes, objectives, and who an importer is\u2014all of these little things the committee changed to make the system more robust. The overarching question that arose from that was why the officials put up such limp legislation in the first place. Why could they not see the dangers that each and every one of us on the select committee saw? We made changes and that is great, but maybe we missed something. I for one do not want to be held responsible for passing legislation that leaves open the door to a major biosecurity incursion in this country. Although supporting the legislation at this point, the Opposition flags its intention to investigate amendments that might improve the bill even further, and we lay at the feet of the Government the challenge to put more money into biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002277d3ea673a17452184c3d0d6b484978f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277d3ea673a17452184c3d0d6b484978f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. The Primary Production Committee, as has been mentioned by the Minister, and the Opposition spokesman, Damien O\u2019Connor, received 41 submissions and heard from 27 submitters. A lot of the concerns that the previous speaker has alluded to were addressed. In fact, the select committee made nine substantive alterations or recommendations to the Government, which have been accepted. So I am interested in where that member is heading with his comments about what may still be out there that is unattended to. We will watch with some interest as to which way the Labour whips intend to go in regard to which bills they will support and which ones they will not. We will watch that space with interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe substantive change that is worth mentioning is the fact that for the first time the concept of a Government-industry agreement, between the stakeholders and the State, in regard to how to best address biosecurity incursions, was introduced into this legislation, and the select committee had some reservations about that and considered that fully. The committee discussed widely with those who submitted. It was an interesting concept that on one side were the small industry players such as the kiwifruit industry, which recently had a major incursion with Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa). They had experience. They were actually more receptive to the notion of having a predetermined agreement with the State about who pays and what happens, who holds the intellectual property, as it were, in regard to addressing a particular issue, and who is likely to have the biggest stake in the debate. The small industry players were more receptive to it than, perhaps, some of the older, more traditional industries such as dairy, meat, and wool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI guess we can understand the concern that exists out there among the stakeholders in this debate. On one side, one could argue that the Government was backing away from its traditional position that the State should fund. On the other side, one could argue that those who know how to respond best and have the ability to advise need to be at the table, and be there not only in terms of discussion but also in terms of funding. So there is an element of a debate still going on there. I am very pleased to hear that the Minister for Biosecurity came out and said that the bottom seal, if you like, of who pays what would be 50 percent. Negotiations go from 50 percent up, as far as the State is involved in the incursion, whatever it might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second issue, which I am very pleased to see is introduced in this bill for the first time, is the ability for a neighbour to be a neighbour regardless of whether that neighbour is the State or anyone else, and clarity around who that is. The term \u201Cadjacent or nearby\u201D is significant, along with the case law that goes with that term. It is a major step forward. Up until now, there has been one set of rules for the State\u2014the State being whatever piece of Crown land it might be, whether it is Department of Conservation land, school land, railways reserves, whatever\u2014and another set of rules for the private landowner. The private landowner had to meet a far higher standard than the State in regard to pest management and weed control and any other biosecurity potential breach. That was unfair. It always has been unfair. Obviously, we did not want to reach a position where we put undue cost or unnecessary cost on the taxpayer, but we wanted fairness, and I think the position that the committee reached\u2014and the recommendation that has been accepted\u2014was fair and just. I think that is a step forward for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I will be interested to listen to the debate as it goes through the House. We will find out what it is that is concerning the Opposition\u2014what new material may have come to light since the select committee finally reached a position and deliberated on this bill and reported back to the House. I look forward to the passage of this bill through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00229f3219239621495ea99e2e316c26cf68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f3219239621495ea99e2e316c26cf68\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity to speak on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. The Primary Production Committee had 41 submissions on the bill and we heard 27 of the submitters. As I saw this bill coming through the select committee, I noted that we had a number of very passionate submissions on this issue. A number of submitters were not quite convinced that this bill would fix their biosecurity concerns, but the bill is another step in the long fight against potential biosecurity issues for this nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAs I see it, this is an ongoing struggle, because when we are dealing with biomass, the kind of work we are doing in New Zealand\u2014we have plants, animals, meats, wool, and all that\u2014involves potential risks to animals and plants. Over the years we have had a number of issues of concern. Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) has been mentioned, as well as the varroa mite and didymo. Clover root weevils were a big problem in the north some years ago. These are the issues, as we open up our markets to the rest of the world, as we have more free-trade agreements, and potential concerns that will be of a nature that we have to continuously safeguard our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAlthough the intention of this bill is very good, I am really concerned. The Minister for Biosecurity said earlier that this bill will increase capacity in terms of biosecurity. Given that the ministry already lost 54 or 55 jobs a couple of years ago, I am not sure whether we are ready, for example, for the Rugby World Cup. We will have, potentially, 80,000 to 100,000 people coming to New Zealand, and, as my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor said, we will have a whole lot of people coming from Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EWe have the so-called SmartGate system. Although I agree that we need something like SmartGate for people, I am not convinced of its use when there are biosecurity concerns. When people can come here, bag in hand, and not go through the screening and all that, I am really concerned. People might be in nice suits and all that, but people do make mistakes. There could be an apple here or a banana there, in a bag they have not declared. That is a potential concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003ELast year we sought some figures about how many incidents there had been after SmartGate was implemented. We are still awaiting that information from the ministry, and I hope that the next time we have the opportunity to hear from the ministry, we will find out how successful SmartGate is in terms of biosecurity. I have concerns about people coming through our borders, because although they may have good intentions, there is no way of knowing what sort of biomaterial they may be bringing into the country, for example, from Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAs our business improves, the number of cars coming into the country has gone back up to 2008 numbers, and there is a lot of ballast water in the ships that bring cars into this country. With the number of biosecurity staff coming down, I am unsure whether we have been able to keep up with the volume of trade coming in. We really need to increase, in my belief, the number of staff, because the number of people coming into our country has gone back to the old numbers, and we have the Rugby World Cup coming. There will be a need for more biosecurity staff at our entry points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAs my colleague said, we will be supporting the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill at this stage, but certainly we are in discussion with industry, which has concerns, particularly with the Government-industry partnership, or agreement, that the Minister talked about. Some industry representatives are saying it is not good enough, and they are talking to the Opposition about their potential concerns, and we are working on a possible Supplementary Order Paper for this bill when we come to the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EIn terms of the current issue, Psa, I recently had the opportunity to talk to my former colleague and friend from Massey University, Dr Bruce Campbell. He is the chief operating officer of Plant and Food Research. I happened to meet him last week at the airport\u2014as I often do\u2014and he told me that Psa in the Bay of Plenty area is still a serious concern and will be for years to come. I had a good discussion with him about what the status is now, and how he foresees the future. Clearly, they are still doing research on this, because they still cannot figure out how the bacteria came to New Zealand or where it came from. Nobody is sure yet, and they are looking into it, and he tells me that it will be years before we will be able to overcome this issue in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EIn Italy, for example, there was a big loss of vines. We have the concern of the total amount of rain in the Bay of Plenty area and the topography in the area, so there are a number of issues that we will have to look at. Dr Campbell was certainly concerned that the issue will be a serious concern for the growers in that area in the years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EIt is a real concern for me that the Minister thinks this bill will increase the capacity of the Government. On the one hand he is saying that, but, on the other hand, we have lost a number of front-line staff and we have an increasing volume of trade. We will potentially get a lot more problems in the coming months and years because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223427b3bb1984eb89fe8d0eec10f5877\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: OK, Ashraf, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fca9059b32e47a9bee12747f153df34\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. This is something we have to address. My colleague on the other side is really saying that this is an issue we normally work very well on in the Primary Production Committee. The committee spent quite a bit of time on this particular bill, trying to make it better, as Damien O\u2019Connor said earlier. When the bill came to the committee, it was a very, very weak bill. We have improved it quite a bit, but still there are concerns, and some of the representatives from the industry are not very happy with it. Certainly, we will look at some Supplementary Order Papers, and I am sure the chairman of the select committee, as he said here, will be discussing this bill and the details of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EOverall, the intention is there, and I can appreciate that. The intention is there to improve the effectiveness and the efficiency of biosecurity, but, in reality, is the Minister going to do it? That is my concern. With those words, I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002216d4c212d5be4b1d94af3fc85063e6f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216d4c212d5be4b1d94af3fc85063e6f1\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be opposing the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. We do so because we are concerned that on the one hand we are reducing staff and funding in biosecurity\u2014we got rid of 55 staff and chopped off a couple of million from the front-line budget for biosecurity\u2014and on the other hand we are reducing biosecurity protections, particularly to industries, and I will illustrate that by focusing on the pig industry and the bee industry. So we are reducing budgets, we are reducing staff, we are reducing biosecurity protections, and then we are turning around and telling industries they will have to pay 50 percent of the costs if there is an incursion. If an incursion occurs because of a policy that one of these industries has completely opposed, it will nevertheless be required to pick up 50 percent of the costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI will illustrate this with the pork industry and the bee industry, because both of these industries are at war with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the Government. It is ironic, to say the least, that we have a department, namely the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, which is supposed to be protecting our primary producing industries, yet two of these industries are at war with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry because of the ministry\u2019s failure, they believe, to protect their industries from biosecurity risks. The Pork Industry Board has spent up to $1 million fighting the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. They are going into the High Court, I think on 25 August, because they are opposing the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry as it is insisting on lowering biosecurity standards. It is now going to allow raw pork into New Zealand from countries that have this devastating pig disease, referred to as pig AIDS. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry will allow raw pig meat to come in from those countries, whereas previously this meat was not allowed unless it was treated to inactivate the virus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI ask why the Government would be doing something as foolish as allowing raw pig meat in from countries that have a devastating virus if the industry and a whole lot of experts are saying this could bring a devastating pig disease into New Zealand, or, indeed, why the Government would agree to bring in honey from Australia, when Australian honey harbours diseases that could devastate our bee industry. Why would it do that? I have discovered the answer by looking at the import health standard that is being lowered in respect of pig meat. The reason we are doing this is free trade and because of our obligations to the World Trade Organization. It says that we are required, under article 5 of the Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures, to not have any more trade restrictive measures than are required to achieve \u201Can appropriate level of protection\u201D. That phrase has become the new definition of biosecurity at our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the rest of the statement we see that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has done all of this. It is lowering the import standards because it believes that this will achieve an appropriate level of protection from the introduction of porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome, the devastating pig disease. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry is saying it will lower standards to meet our World Trade Organization obligations, never mind that some of the industry experts, such as Professor Roger Morris, say that if we do this, it is inevitable that within 3 to 5 years we will have an incursion of this disease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry thinks it will happen only once every 1,200 years, but our local experts say it will happen every 3 to 5 years. I could go into all the details as to why the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry analysis seems to be completely flawed, but my point is if what the pig industry is warning happens\u2014that this pig disease comes into New Zealand\u2014then the pig industry will be expected to pay 50 percent of the costs of dealing with this devastating disease that it has vehemently opposed in the courts. For many years now it has opposed the lowering of these standards by the Government, and the Government has pigheadedly gone ahead, ignored all of its concerns, and is doing it for the World Trade Organization because of its obsession with free-trade agreements. The disease will come in, and under this bill the industry will be expected to share the costs. It is completely and utterly unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the bee industry believes there is a very serious risk of diseases coming in if we allow Australian honey to be imported into New Zealand. Once again, it has been vehemently opposing the Government, and begging the Government not to lower biosecurity standards to allow Australian honey to be imported. The Government is ignoring those concerns and going ahead with the legislation. What will happen if one of these diseases, which would devastate our bee industry, comes in? An effect of one of the diseases would be that we would have to treat our bees in New Zealand with antibiotics. We are one of the countries in the world that do not have to treat our bees with antibiotics. It is one of our points of difference, and one of the reasons why we attract premium prices around the world, but the Government is lowering the biosecurity standard, putting our bee industry at risk. If the bee industry\u2019s fears are realised, it may require, into infinity, our bees to be treated with antibiotics\u2014what a disaster\u2014as well as being treated with miticides and pesticides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ETo us this measure is completely foolhardy. We lower the biosecurity risks, because we now have this new definition of what a biosecurity risk is, and against that we require simply anything that provides an \u201Cappropriate level of protection\u201D. So we are no longer trying to keep these diseases out, we are just trying to provide an appropriate level of protection. Then we lower the numbers of staff, the budget for biosecurity, and our standards, and turn round and tell the industries that they will have to pick up the costs. It is the industries that will have to foot the bill, not the importers. At the moment we already have anywhere from 45 to 50 percent of pork in New Zealand being imported, but if we have an incursion of porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome, the devastating pig disease, it will not be the importers who have to pay for the disease, which will devastate\u2014indeed, wipe out\u2014our pig industry, it will be the New Zealand pork producers. The $700 million pork industry will be put at risk by this absurd decision to lower the biosecurity standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the honey industry will be put at risk by the lowering of biosecurity standards. Yet, against all of the advice, if these pests and diseases come in, the industries will have to pick up the bill. This is complete madness. I cannot understand why the Government would do this, and the Green Party is completely opposed to it. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00224e45dbbdc2ed4107bf8acaa4d1147d9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e45dbbdc2ed4107bf8acaa4d1147d9b\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party, in its founding statement, expressed our commitment to keeping our natural resources and environment healthy, safe, and intact for everyone and for future generations. Within this, the M\u0101ori Party is also committed to assisting wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, as tangata tiaki, to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure the well-being and future good health of the environment. Both of these commitments lead us, naturally enough, towards a position of support for this Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. There are five key areas identified in this bill: border risk management, marine biosecurity, readiness and response, pest management, and compliance and enforcement. Sustainable success in these areas will depend on the level of decision making, and that ultimately leads the operational side of biosecurity. It is for this reason that we believe it is important to look at the decision making for biosecurity before delving into minute details of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAt the very core of the Treaty of Waitangi is the principle of equal partnership. This means real involvement by tangata whenua at the decision-making level, regionally, nationally, and at a ministerial level. As kaitiaki and Treaty of Waitangi partners, M\u0101ori have a particular interest in ensuring there is an appropriate delivery and integration of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga into biosecurity science. This integration must occur in a way that maintains the cultural integrity of these knowledge systems and cultural practices. Constant communication with MAF Biosecurity New Zealand would allow M\u0101ori to build capacity and capability in this field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EBut this House is also considerably better off at this point of the second reading of this bill than we were when it first came before the House last year, given the wisdom contained in the report on Wai 262. What that report tells us is that M\u0101ori have diverse interests in the management of t\u0101onga such as indigenous flora, fauna, and resources, as both kaitiaki and developer. These dual roles oblige M\u0101ori to be involved in decisions that may impact on t\u0101onga. Wai 262 informs the House that iwi have relationships with species that are emblematic and have a spiritual element to them and their connection to the wider ecosystem, particularly with regard to native plants such as harakeke, koromiko, p\u014Dhutukawa, k\u014Dwhai, puaw\u0101nanga, poroporo, kawakawa, m\u0101nuka, and k\u016Bmara. Also, as uri of Ng\u0101ti K\u014Data, of course, I am proud to speak of our direct relationship to the tuatara. The relationship is underpinned by our own knowledge of these species, or m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. Yet the understandings of New Zealanders with regard to the environment today are largely based on the P\u0101keh\u0101 relationship with the environment, the M\u0101ori relationship being overlooked. Eventually this will cause the traditional knowledge and approaches to be lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe interests of kaitiaki and those involved in the advancement of scientific and economic knowledge need to be managed so that a balance between the two can be achieved, and both interests can be recognised and respected. How that relates to this legislation is quite simple. There is an expectation that M\u0101ori cultural, spiritual, environmental, and economic values will be explicitly reflected in the decision-making processes of MAF Biosecurity New Zealand. We believe that M\u0101ori are well positioned to identify biosecurity issues and research needs that are important to M\u0101ori. At a national level, we would like to see tangata whenua values and interests incorporated in the management of biosecurity, as it is an effective way to recognise the customary use of indigenous biodiversity according to tikanga. This would mean a real partnership between tangata whenua and MAF Biosecurity New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EToo often, M\u0101ori are brought into the fray by Government departments too late in the process. More often than not, the fundamentals of a decision have been made already. It is largely a box-ticking exercise at that point, which benefits no one, especially iwi. The M\u0101ori Party believes that the Government can and should do better than that. M\u0101ori need to be involved when the decisions are being made, not after a decision has been reached. The relationship with MAF Biosecurity New Zealand, therefore, would have to be one between tangata whenua and the Director-General of Agriculture and Forestry to be of any real substance. Such a relationship would also ensure that M\u0101ori have the opportunity to debate and table reports such as the one on Wai 262 before the director-general, as one would expect from a Treaty partnership. At the very core of the Treaty of Waitangi is the principle of equal partnership. This means real involvement by tangata whenua at the decision-making level, regionally, nationally, and at a ministerial level. We would like to hear from the Minister about how a formal relationship between iwi and the director-general can be enhanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt is also important for M\u0101ori to be aware of potential impacts from incursions of pests and diseases associated with taonga and resources in their rohe. At the regional level we believe that the legislation should provide for the role of tangata whenua as kaitiaki when developing and implementing regional policy statements and regional and district plans associated with biosecurity. A blueprint of how this partnership could work is the Ngati Tuwharetoa, Raukawa, and Te Arawa River Iwi Waikato River Act 2010, which sees iwi have equal representation on decision-making and management bodies, as well as allowing for mana whenua iwi to develop their own strategies for the river. This will eventually be incorporated into the Waikato Regional Policy Statement. During this significant week for Tainui Waikato, with the koroneihana in progress, it is fitting to pay tribute to the visionaries behind that legislation. This is a true Treaty relationship at a regional level, and it goes beyond cursory consultation, which has proven to be ineffectual for M\u0101ori. It is indeed a model that we would hope this biosecurity law reform legislation could benefit from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe also believe that an arrangement whereby iwi have an equal say in decisions that affect them would address the need to ensure that there is regular and informed consultation with tangata whenua, as it relates to protecting and enhancing areas and habitats that have particular significance for M\u0101ori. The key requirement is that tangata whenua should be involved, and be given equal decision-making status, in the development and implementation of regional policy statements and regional and district plans associated with biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EFinally, at a ministerial level we believe that it is in the best interests of iwi to be extensively represented on the Biosecurity Council of New Zealand, which plays an important role in strategic biosecurity policy development, as well as in advising the Minister for Biosecurity. The council has representatives from each of the primary production sectors, from environmental organisations, and from regional councils, and yet there is no iwi voice. The M\u0101ori Party believes that that needs to change in order for there to be a lasting Treaty partnership in relation to biosecurity. We want to see the active involvement of tangata whenua in the protection of cultural values, to protect the native plants, animals, and other resources that are taonga to M\u0101ori. In order to achieve this very important goal, M\u0101ori need to be involved in decision making at all levels, and the Government needs to be bold. We believe that the provisions we have sought are sufficient for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc40b1d4d7b14a36ab559910e770f327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc40b1d4d7b14a36ab559910e770f327\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on the second reading of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill, which the ACT Party is supporting. It is pleasing to see this bill come before the House, and we look forward to its speedy progress through Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe bill, as we have heard from other speakers before me, is in two parts. Part 1 makes amendments to the Biosecurity Act 1993 to improve and modernise the biosecurity system. It is quite right and proper that we see this sort of process happening often. In fact, ACT\u2019s Regulatory Responsibility Bill\u2014or Regulatory Standards Bill, as it is now named\u2014which is before the House, talks about reviewing legislation on a 5-yearly basis, which is very important so we have up-to-date techniques and information in place. Others have mentioned in more detail the changes that will be made in this particular part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill amends the Maritime Transport Act 1994 to implement the International Convention for the Control and Management of Ships\u2019 Ballast Water and Sediments 2004. Again, we are very pleased to see this review and modernisation of the biosecurity system in place. It is dependent on all of us, not just those authorities, that we take these measures very seriously. I reiterate many of the points that the previous speaker from the M\u0101ori Party, Rahui Katene, made about the importance of having engagement from all sectors of our community in upholding these biosecurity arrangements. The first role of Government\u2014and we should always go back to first principles in law of this type, I think\u2014is to provide for the safety and security of New Zealand citizens. Biosecurity measures fall firmly under that wider umbrella. I often talk about the need for national security measures, as opposed to individual silos, that seek to look after our safety and security as citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt was very pleasing to see at the Primary Production Committee that changes were made relating to border risk management. I will mention two in particular: firstly, the improving of the legislative framework for collaborating with other agencies. This is hugely important. We are a small country, and our agencies and our departments often find it difficult to cover the huge breadth of areas individually. But when we look to all areas of security, we find that with cooperation and collaboration firmly in place, we can achieve so much more and actually get real protection for our borders. That legislative framework allowing collaboration with other agencies is hugely important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe other area that was dealt with at select committee was the amendments relating to readiness and response. If we are going to tackle some of the issues we have heard about from other speakers\u2014in particular, the Green speaker, Sue Kedgley\u2014we need to make sure these agencies are well equipped to respond very quickly to any threats that arise. New provisions authorise the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry to enter into agreements with industry organisations to take joint decisions on readiness and response. Again, we should not always rely upon just Government agencies to provide that protection at our borders and elsewhere within our country. It is very wise that we have agreements with industry organisations so that everybody takes seriously their role to provide the protection that should be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI will leave it at that. The ACT Party supports this bill, and we look forward to its speedy movement through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002255bd5d4bed4c4ce0a1e239176e7bdcf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255bd5d4bed4c4ce0a1e239176e7bdcf5\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak to the second reading of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. I would have liked to address the bill in some depth, but I think that has been done very adequately by previous speakers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will spend a bit of my time rebutting some of the Opposition\u2019s comments. I will take people back down memory lane. It was 11 or 12 years ago that Murray Sherwin, on being appointed as the Director-General of Agriculture and Forestry, pointed out to the people of New Zealand that a foot-and-mouth incident in New Zealand would cost about $10 billion. Further along the way, we had the Waiheke Island experience, and we learnt that nothing substantive had been done from 2000 through to that incident. So I say to members of the Opposition that they are lions in Opposition, and lambs in Government. The Primary Production Committee spent 3 years sitting on its hands, waiting for work to come from the then Labour Government, and nothing was forthcoming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I say on behalf of the select committee that the major risk is from importers. With the Government-industry agreement for biosecurity readiness and response, we are putting in place a very appropriate measure to manage the outbreak of an incursion, but the question we cannot answer is how we penalise a person who breaches our border control and brings in a biosecurity incursion. That is the $64,000 question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThis bill is very good. The Government-industry agreement is very appropriate and is overdue. We have seen so many cases where an ounce of prevention would have prevented a pound of cure. This is good legislation. It should have been in law 10 years ago, but because of the procrastination of the previous Labour Government, and the difficulty it had in making the hard calls, we are dealing with it today. It is very good legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002267510b510cd942078b48a3bec463b840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267510b510cd942078b48a3bec463b840\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E After listening to the member speaking before me, Colin King, I want to assure members that we on this side of the House, the Labour Opposition, take seriously the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. When one takes these things seriously one has to acknowledge the fact that we rely on our farming industry. We rely on our horticulture, our viticulture, our orchards, our pork industry, and our honey industry. I think that needs to be taken into consideration. I have to disagree with the previous speaker, who said that the importers should be our concern and our priority. Well, it is really our farming industry that we need to be looking to secure and protect. That is the reason why we have biosecurity legislation. We need to recognise that we rely on our farming, on our green and clean image, and we have to protect it. I think it is foolhardy simply to say that this piece of legislation will protect everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELet me read part of the report: \u201CThe bill seeks to amend this Part to allow the biosecurity system to respond to an increasingly challenging environment by providing for more effective and efficient risk management, and for clearer roles and responsibilities, and better collaboration and partnerships.\u201D That says there is a lot of work we have to do in order to protect our borders and protect our environment. It also says we need to rely on exchanges of information within the various Government departments that service and protect our borders. But it also means we have to work in partnership with the industry itself. I have to say that it is still very much in the memories of many farmers that not too long ago we had a problem with the Pseudomonas syringae pv. Actinidiae (Psa) leaf blight outbreak in kiwifruit. The potential $75 million cost of Psa to our kiwifruit industry should be a reminder to us of how important it is that our biosecurity services are well resourced and operating effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo it is no credit whatsoever to this Government when it cuts the budget by $2 million, as my colleague pointed out, and when it gets rid of 55 jobs, as my colleague pointed out, then expects us to still be able to protect our borders. I think what Sue Kedgley from the Green Party said earlier makes sense. There is no politics in this. Nobody wins. I think we have to take seriously the fact that we have an economic advantage in terms of our farming industry and our clean and green image. We will lose that, all of that is at risk, if we attempt to bully our way through by passing legislation and saying that that will fix the problem. I reiterate what Damien O\u2019Connor, our spokesperson on biosecurity, said. Although Labour will allow the passage of this legislation in its second reading, we will continue to engage with, and talk to, the industry out there, and will decide from there whether we will support the legislation in the Committee of the whole House and the third reading. We do need to take seriously that we depend very much on protecting our borders and protecting our biosecurity. We hope the more-targeted approach to border checks will make the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s operation more efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhen we look at sharing information and sharing intelligence between Government agencies, we see that they can only do so much with the resources given to them. If the Government continues to cut funding from important areas and cut jobs from significant areas, then who is to blame if our biosecurity is put at risk? Labour members would like to acknowledge the good work that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, MAF Biosecurity New Zealand, Horticulture New Zealand, and all the New Zealand kiwifruit growers have done in handling the Psa outbreak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI think we have to feel quite nervous when we look at what happened there, because we certainly do not want a repeat of that occurrence. We do not want mad cow disease here. We do not want a tax on our bee or honey industry. We certainly do not want to put our wildlife at risk, or our flowers, our fruit, and our wine industry. Not only will the industry be at risk; there is much, much more. It has a ripple effect. There are jobs. There are livelihoods. It has an impact on the prices of some of these products, and that is one of the reasons why we are quite keen on ensuring there is a robust inquiry into milk prices. If that sort of thing is happening in terms of what is being sold overseas and the price of what is being sold here, we have to ask those particular questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Biosecurity claimed that the job cuts were needed as the recession had resulted in a fall in car imports and international arrivals, and thus the Government was left carrying the cost of staff that levies no longer covered. Well, that is an extremely short-sighted approach to biosecurity management. Key imports such as used cars have already rebounded to near-2008 levels, and international arrivals have been at a record high this year. So why will the Minister not reinstate the 55 jobs that he cut, and does he expect MAF Biosecurity New Zealand to provide the same effective services and nationwide coverage with fewer staff on hand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI was not present in the Primary Production Committee when submissions were heard, but I have heard from colleagues from the Greens and the M\u0101ori Party that the public made serious submissions, which this Government will, hopefully, take into consideration. As I said, it is a serious issue and we do need to take care. We need to protect our clean and green image. Labour members will continue to talk to the industry, individuals, and constituents involved before determining our final decision on the bill in the Committee of the whole House and in the third reading. Although I am not presently a farmer, I grew up around farms. I know what farming is like. I know how hard people work to try to protect their livelihood. I think the Government owes it to this country to ensure that we are doing all we can not only to protect the livelihoods that this economy depends on but also to protect future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn closing, I take the liberty to endorse the statements that were made earlier, the condolences and the commendations towards Sir Paul Reeves and Lady Beverley. I count myself as a close friend of Sir Paul, and he will be terribly missed by the Pacific communities and by people in Manukau. Sir Paul was a good friend of ours. He was a steadfast champion of the young people in Manukau. He was somebody we looked upon with deep respect, who attempted to connect people, irrespective of their background. In the role that Sir Paul had with the Auckland University of Technology, he made sure that many of our young people from the schools in Manukau were able to perform in front of audiences that they would not normally perform in front of. That was a manifestation of Sir Paul Reeves\u2019 attempting to connect the people of Manukau with the people of Remuera, the rich with the poor, the old with the young, P\u0101keh\u0101 with Polynesian. I add my respects to Sir Paul Reeves\u2019 family. It is my prayer that they will be comforted and that the dark clouds that hover over them will dissipate. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u002244311917248247ffbbb7fdf552273a99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244311917248247ffbbb7fdf552273a99\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E This has been a good debate in the House today on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. It is a good bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002288cb3ca64a964ea389b41cb46949deab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288cb3ca64a964ea389b41cb46949deab\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Other members, in particular Labour members, have traversed the value of our exports to other countries and the importance of the security of those exports. I will read just a few figures here. \u201CNew Zealand relies upon primary production more than any other developed country, exporting around 80 percent of our primary production produced here each year.\u201D In figures for the year ended March 2009, agriculture and food exports accounted for just under $20 billion, horticulture exports $3.2 billion, and forestry products exports $3.4 billion, which accounted for 64 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total merchandise exports. The combined contribution of agriculture, food and beverage, forestry, and logging to New Zealand\u2019s gross domestic product was 12.5 percent in the year ended March 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIt is vital that we have a biosecurity system that protects those exports and our primary productions. That is why I am astounded to hear yet again that the Government has allowed what Sue Kedgley described as pig AIDS to come into the country. Why on earth would we intentionally introduce a disease that has the potential to affect an industry of ours? I am absolutely bewildered by it. It is an absolute nonsense that that sort of thing can happen. Instead of protecting biosecurity, that is in fact jeopardising biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI want to go back just a bit and tell a story about ship ballast. I see that the bill \u201Camends the Maritime Transport Act 1994 to implement the international convention on ballast water.\u201D Where I come from up in the Bay of Islands, our river, the Taumarere River, is inundated with Pacific oysters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229408849b9587458fa821ccd578399527\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I will recap the k\u014Drero before the break. It is no secret how important biosecurity is to protecting our primary production industries. Therefore, we need to invest in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af64895e81e14676814da9dbedecd49f\u0022\u003EHon Nathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: You were talking about ballast before\u2014the ballast story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf729a156704e029d1e13bcb0bd2fc8\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; I say to the member for \u014Ctaki that I was just getting on to the ballast story. I was talking about our ancestral river, the Taumarere River, up there in the Bay of Islands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESome 60 or 70 years ago, my uncles told me, they could walk 4 or 5 miles along the mudflats, from the village right up to where the fishing grounds were. They could do that in bare feet, as kids in those days were wont to do. However, that would now be impossible to achieve, because the mudflats are inundated with Pacific oysters. The Pacific oyster industry in the Bay of Islands has benefitted from ballast. However, unfortunately the dumping of ballast rocks in water has had an effect on the environment. These days people\u2019s feet would be absolutely cut to ribbons if they tried to walk those 4 or 5 miles that my uncles walked some 60 or so years ago. I do not think even gumboots would last the journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe Taumarere River was quite a busy port many years ago. In fact, it was one of the main trading routes from Sydney to the Bay of Islands in New Zealand. When ships started come up the river, the depth of the water got a bit shallow and they had to dump their ballast and ballast rocks. One can see the ballast rocks on the side of the river. They had oyster spat, which has since grown and spread and overtaken the mudflats. So it is good to see that this bill will amend the Maritime Transport Act 1994 to implement the International Convention for the Control and Management of Ships\u2019 Ballast Water and Sediments so that we do not have that situation happening again. I know that ballast water has been dumped in various ports around the country, which has led to various sea creatures settling. I know also\u2014although I cannot remember the report where I read it\u2014that some ports have been taken over by anemones and those types of marine creatures, and that MAF Biosecurity New Zealand has basically given up on trying to eradicate them from the ports, because they have just gone out of control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis bill also amends the scope of the Wild Animal Control Act 1977 so that possums and wallabies may be managed solely under the Biosecurity Act 1993. Just as fate would have it, yesterday I had a constituent in my office in Kaikohe who is a possum trapper. He is at his wits\u2019 end trying to deal with a lot of red tape and bureaucracy around the culling of possums. He is a possum trapper; he poisons possums. All he wants to do is get out in the bush and kill possums. That is all he wants. He has to deal with the Department of Conservation, the Ministry of Health, and other organisations just to go and kill possums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOne may ask what the link is between the Ministry of Health and possum trapping. The fact of the matter is that this guy, who just wants to get in the bush and kill possums, actually has to go in and identify where river courses and waterways are. In fact, it is only river courses that lead to drinking reservoirs for towns. He has to identify where schools are. This guy goes way up in the bush\u2014miles away from anywhere\u2014and he has to fill out a plan that shows all these things that happen to be miles and miles away, when he is using cyanide, which breaks down in the water in next to no time and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on any wildlife 3 kilometres downstream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EHopefully, this bill will speed things up and make things easier for this poor possum trapper. He is just trying to earn a living but is inundated with bureaucracy. He is not a person who likes to get behind a computer or use a pen and do all that sort of stuff; he just wants to get out in the bush and kill possums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EM\u0101nuka honey was another issue that Sue Kedgley from the Greens brought up. Up north the m\u0101nuka honey industry is a fledgling industry with a lot of potential for export. In fact, I was at the opening of the beekeeping school in Kait\u0101ia not 12 months ago. They showed us these products that m\u0101nuka honey can be used to make. Most people think honey goes just on your toast. In fact, there are bandages that are infused with m\u0101nuka honey because of its antibacterial properties. The only machine in the world that can produce these antibacterial m\u0101nuka-infused bandages, I am told, is in London in England. The demand for this m\u0101nuka honey is 2,000 tonnes per annum, just to make these bandages, yet we can fulfil only 300 tonnes per annum. So there is massive potential there for the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe have to make sure that we do not get more little critters like these varroa mites that have got into New Zealand and are now infecting hives all around the country. We have to make sure that we do not have these biosecurity threats getting in at our borders, which is the reason we have to ask why 54 front-line jobs have been culled from MAF Biosecurity New Zealand. It is absolutely ridiculous that we are removing staff from a front-line industry that will protect our primary produce being exported overseas. I would like to think that part of this bill would be to return those front-line staff so that we have those protections at our border. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI want to touch quickly on the Wai 262 claim, because the Crown has an obligation to protect our indigenous flora and fauna. If we allow these pest invasions and incursions to come into New Zealand and damage our native flora and fauna, then I do not believe that the Crown is fulfilling its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi. I do not believe that the Crown is fulfilling the intent of the Wai 262 report that has come out recently. I know that the Crown will have a look at that and see what it can do, in terms of Wai 262. I believe that it is incumbent on the Government to produce legislation that will protect our borders and the whole biosecurity industry. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00229a3b545f838649aa907ce6f22e673eca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a3b545f838649aa907ce6f22e673eca\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a quick call on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill and to commend the bill to the House. I also commend the previous speaker, Kelvin Davis, on his speech, particularly for the way he focused on compliance costs. It was great to see Mr Davis focusing on one of the six key strategies of the National Government\u2019s plan. We welcome him to come over to this side of the House at any time to work on bringing down those compliance costs for businesses in New Zealand. It is a fantastic thing and we support that initiative. I commend the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill to the House at this point in time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022931119ff206e49a588edafd6f69000e4\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e655a7282c1d45c1a3fbffd338183012\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022abafe9a4e5dd4607a9820b642ff5d27a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abafe9a4e5dd4607a9820b642ff5d27a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Earlier today when the House was considering the Legal Assistance (Sustainability) Amendment Bill, the result of the vote on the question that the bill be now read a second time was incorrectly announced as Ayes 63 and Noes 57. The correct result is Ayes 62 and Noes 58.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b747dea998041a99e5c192c177ebbbb\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022483c7a2dd8af4372ab8f400b3c6914a3\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2460fdfdf5041db8effc1b544e73b84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2460fdfdf5041db8effc1b544e73b84\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through their remaining stages of the Freedom Camping Bill, the Student Loan Scheme Bill, the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill, the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill, the Statutes Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation, and Fees) Bill, and of any bills into which those bills may be divided, and the introduction and passing of a Government bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs noted in the business statement last Thursday, the Government has moved that urgency be accorded to items of business that require timely implementation. As members will know, the supply of House time has been reduced this year, from the normal 30 weeks or so to just 23 weeks, due to factors such as the Rugby World Cup and the general election. Including this week, there are just 5 sitting weeks remaining before the dissolution of the House for the general election. On the demand side, some of the bills in today\u2019s motion require immediate action due to the impending Rugby World Cup, such as the Freedom Camping Bill and the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOther bills require passage as soon as possible to enable implementation to commence in advance of looming deadlines, such as the Student Loan Scheme Bill, which is due to come into force on 1 April 2012 and the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, which is due to commence on 1 October this year. Similarly, the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) formalises the restructuring of three agencies, one of which is due to be defunct by 1 September 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill is a slightly different case. The Government made the decision earlier this year that the census, scheduled for 2011, would not be held due to the disruption caused by the Canterbury earthquakes. By law the Government must hold a census this year, so amending legislation is required to reflect the decision to defer the census. Cabinet subsequently decided that the census should be held in 2013 instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe swift passage of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) is desirable to provide much-needed certainty to the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adf68453a6af4729a5ccfffcd2e48786\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a60103f5f8e44d6a8fb3b6262a35116e\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00220fc31cf63c9b4d5aa96f612832f92d34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fc31cf63c9b4d5aa96f612832f92d34\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the House or, if in Committee of the whole House, for the Committee to suspend at 11.45 a.m. and for the House or Committee to sit again on the ringing of the bell on Wednesday, 17 August, to enable members to attend the State farewell luncheon for His Excellency the Governor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268768ec5ace54065ba50668704c1cca0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022008f033b381c4c8c96baf2281fa16fdb\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eff32d0dfb4b46dda7a92b8bdff9d49d\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002270ff1f71711147889202fc7f72b7f94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270ff1f71711147889202fc7f72b7f94b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for there to be a question time at 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 17 August and Thursday, 18 August, and for questions to be lodged in the normal manner, pursuant to Standing Order 372.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9101997e04e4f0eb1cf6f8be79f11d8\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2d879454b084ff680a3d45245312746\u0022\u003EFreedom Camping Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022081fca417ebc44d0924a3a752889e68e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a37ae8374204a7798abc421da2bee60\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb40bb14dbeb4892ae08c7af8e48286e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb40bb14dbeb4892ae08c7af8e48286e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1 is clauses 3 to 9. The debate includes schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00220ad0fb3a6532455584e4723417e22b01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ad0fb3a6532455584e4723417e22b01\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairman. Where to begin with the misnamed Freedom Camping Bill? It is a bill that has so much wrong with it, and I am hoping we will have enough time this evening to tease out the many defects in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour has set out in its minority report, and in the second reading debate, its opposition to the bill, and members of the House and members of the public who are interested and listening to the debate will know that we went into this debate with an open mind. We recognise there is a problem in certain parts of the country with people fouling the side of the road, leaving litter and waste in a way that no one wants to see. But in the process of the Local Government and Environment Committee discussions and from listening to public submissions we formed a very clear view that this bill is a punitive and heavy-handed response to this problem, that it is bad law, and that it should not proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe believe that giving councils and the Department of Conservation the power to enforce compliance under this bill for people who freedom camp in prohibited areas, and for littering and waste, is a step too far. The net result of this bill is to threaten freedoms that generations of New Zealanders have enjoyed\u2014that is, the freedom to move around the country and enjoy the great outdoors. This bill raises the possibility that people who go into the countryside on a Friday night for a weekend of fishing, climbing, hunting, surfing, or tramping and camp beside the road after they have driven from their homes\u2014with the idea that they will get up early on a Saturday morning to hit the waves, to go tramping, or to go hunting\u2014could easily find themselves on the wrong side of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is no compulsion under this bill for local authorities to establish a minimum requirement for signage in certain areas. It will be very easy for people who are freedom camping\u2014responsible freedom campers\u2014to park on the side of the road and find themselves woken up in the middle of the night by some council official banging on the window of their campervan and moving them on, let alone slapping a $200 instant fine on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe debate has flushed out a lot of concern from New Zealanders about the threat to this freedom, and I want to quote from a couple of them. This quote is from Grant and Smillie Henderson, who live in Pakuranga, Auckland. They wrote: \u201Cthere are thousands of us, retired hard working ordinary grey haired Grey Nomads out here. Many of us have self-contained rigs worth as much as a small apartment. We have gone to considerable expense to ensure that our motor homes are fully certified and self-contained,\u201D. That allows them to camp away from other facilities for many days. \u201CWe leave any place we stop, tidier and cleaner than we found it. We leave nothing behind but tyre imprints in the gravel. Many of us spend a worthwhile amount of money each month in the smaller centres in NZ \u2026. We enjoy the slower pace of the country areas, the quieter surroundings, the simpler way of doing things.\u201D They say they prefer to freedom camp at times, for the solitude and serenity of the remote places they find. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThey go on to say that in its present form the Freedom Camping Bill criminalises everyday, law-abiding New Zealanders because they own a motor home and enjoy the freedom of the outdoors. They say that this bill is a huge step backwards for this country. They say it will give local councils a licence to target and fine everyone, rather than target those who actually create the problem, and I think they have touched on the nub of the problem here. This bill targets an entire category of person\u2014those who enjoy freedom camping and who go out to the countryside and do it. It targets a whole category of activity, freedom camping, without focusing on the activity that actually does the damage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EMembers on the other side of the Chamber, who are supporting this bill, railed against the phasing out of inefficient light bulbs, which is happening all over the Western World\u2014they said it was an example of the nanny State. Yet the very same members, now in Government, are using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. They are criminalising everyday, law-abiding New Zealanders\u2014as that submitter wrote\u2014simply to solve a problem of people littering and leaving waste on the roadside. It is a travesty and they should not be allowed to get away with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI note that the bill is also supported by the ACT Party, which loves to trumpet its claim to be the great liberal party\u2014the great defender of our freedoms and liberties. I know that many members of the ACT Party in this House do not support this bill, but they have been dragooned into it by the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe want to propose in the course of this debate a number of amendments that we think would improve this legislation, and we look forward to debating those. In particular, we would like to see the deletion of the provisions that criminalise the act of freedom camping. There is no need for it. We could actually achieve the objectives we all have in this matter by bringing in an enforcement and infringement regime that deals with littering and the dumping of waste on Department of Conservation land or on council land. That would be sufficient, along with the kind of powers that are set out on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper to allow the owners of the campervans to recover the fines from the people renting those campervans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe were told at the select committee that the great majority of problems in this area are caused by international visitors using campervans that are not self-contained\u2014they do not have self-contained toilet facilities. I submit that a much more focused and targeted approach could actually solve much of this problem, as well as local authorities in this country investing more in the provision of toilets and rubbish bins in the places that are most vulnerable to this problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn Part 1 there is a definition of \u201Cfreedom camp\u201D and I would like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to it. Clause 5(1) states: \u201Cfreedom camp means to camp \u2026 within 200m of a motor vehicle accessible area, or the mean low-water springs line of any sea or harbour, or on or within 200m of a formed road or a Great Walks Track,\u201D. All a person has to do is be in that area and be using a tent, a caravan, a car, a campervan, house truck, or other motor vehicle and they are freedom camping\u2014and they may not know it. They may not have seen the sign in the darkness, but they have broken the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI say that this is an infringement of a really important freedom that New Zealanders have enjoyed for a long time. I have spent a good part of my life hitchhiking, climbing, tramping, and fishing around the country, and, more often than not, trips away for those sorts of activities involve camping on the side of the road in situations that would likely leave someone to cause an infringement under this Draconian and punitive bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EClause 3(2A) really illustrates the absurdity of this bill. One of the concerns that many people expressed at the select committee was that the bill would effectively allow councils to institute a blanket ban in their territory. Clause 3(2A)\u2014and, I think, clause 11 further on in the bill\u2014states that the powers of regulation under the Act do not allow blanket bans. Well, just saying it does not make it true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EA council can implement a ban over 98 percent of the territory, or over 97 percent. How much, I ask the Minister, is not a blanket ban in her book? I invite the Minister to take a call and explain to New Zealanders the logic behind inserting into the bill a provision that says that councils cannot use it to blanket-ban when that means that they cannot outlaw freedom camping on all of their territory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002279c9d2e3e1c24bdbb349187d7585dae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279c9d2e3e1c24bdbb349187d7585dae8\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Freedom Camping Bill in the Committee stage because I spoke in the first reading of this bill. Having seen some of the effects of the people whose behaviour we are trying to alter in this legislation firsthand in Nelson\u2014in fact, very close to where I live\u2014the legislation is of great interest to me, and I supported its introduction to the House. What we have now, however, is legislation, albeit somewhat amended by the Local Government and Environment Committee\u2014and I welcome some of those amendments\u2014that does not get the balance right. This was always going to be a matter of balance. In fact, if one looks at the submissions, as members of the select committee did, it is possible to see a whole range of views about just what is required here, and what is going over the top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI think that this legislation needed to balance a number of things. It needed to balance our attractiveness as a tourist destination. It needed to balance the care and protection of our environment, which makes us an attractive tourist destination. But the kinds of provisions that exist in this legislation have, in the end, gone too far. They have not balanced the need to address a particular problem that is created by a very few\u2014particularly those who camp in vehicles that are not self-contained. So instead of looking at how infrastructure might be developed or how the situation might be avoided, the legislation will simply come down, with all the force of a sledgehammer, on to people who will be criminalised for doing something that is part of our national identity, habit, and way of being. We are, as New Zealanders, intimately bound up with our physical environment. We love it, we generally take care of it, and we do not like it when people abuse it. But suddenly to criminalise people in the way that this bill does, does not serve a useful purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAt the risk of seeming to sound somewhat irrelevant to the case at issue here, I really want to draw attention to the fact that once upon a time, under the previous Labour Government, there was the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, which provided a Government subsidy for small communities to put in place toilet facilities and dump stations. That scheme has been done away with by this Government, and there is now no subsidy, at all. So those small local authorities that have difficulty in providing the infrastructure and facilities that might well address this problem are now offered no assistance at all to do that. Instead, we are going to turn people into criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI will refer to the meaning of \u201Cfreedom camp\u201D, which is found in clause 5(1) of the bill. It refers to people \u201Cusing 1 or more of the following: (a) a tent or other temporary structure: (b) a caravan: (c) a car, campervan, housetruck, or other motor vehicle.\u201D I have to say that in the Nelson region, particularly in the wider Nelson region, quite a few people live in campervans, housetrucks, or other motor vehicles. It will be very difficult if anything like a partial or, certainly, a complete ban is exercised by the Nelson City Council or the Tasman District Council on the areas they are responsible for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf they do exercise this right to designate places as banned areas, then it will be extremely difficult for ordinary people\u2014New Zealanders or tourists, it does not matter which\u2014who are going about the ordinary task of enjoying our extraordinary environment to know exactly where those places are. Saying that a sign will go up will not be sufficient, particularly if people have been doing that for years\u2014if they have been going back to the same place for years and parking up their housetruck or campervan. For some people in the Nelson area, these become places of residence. These clearly are not usually the people who foul the environment, but the problem with this legislation is that it does not discern between those guilty of behaviour that none of us like\u2014leaving waste or litter behind\u2014and those enjoying our outdoors in a way that does no harm, at all. The bluntness of this legislation is its very problem, and it is not sufficiently nuanced; it is not sufficiently progressive. There is not sufficient support for local authorities to invest in the kinds of facilities they need in order to ensure that those who are legitimately camping in beautiful parts of the country can do that without fouling the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis legislation is coming in under urgency tonight because everybody wants to get it through in time for the Rugby World Cup. Quite frankly, there will be a huge problem when the Rugby World Cup comes along. I refer to a reported statement in the Nelson Mail of 20 May, in which one of the councillors of the Nelson City Council said there were likely to be a thousand extra campervans in the city that would park during Rugby World Cup events in Nelson this year. That was said by Rachel Reece, who is a Nelson City Councillor. I am not sure where a thousand extra campervans will be parked in Nelson. If the Nelson City Council starts to exercise some bans, and to say that places everywhere are banned except the end of Sovereign Street, which is one of the areas close to where I live, and which has been problematic, it would make much more sense if the council were to invest in installing some facilities at the end of Sovereign Street or in Neale Park, and to say: \u201CCome and park your campervan down here, and we will provide some facilities.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOther councillors were concerned that the council would in fact overreact and prevent people from enjoying some of the freedoms particular to New Zealand, and some of the enjoyable things we can do in moving around the outdoors with freedom. This bill, as it stands at the moment, gives the Nelson City Council and the Tasman District Council the power to overreact. That is our concern about this bill. It does not get the balance right. It tries to address a real problem, certainly, and I acknowledge that there is a problem, but it is a problem created by a minority. To bring the legislation down as it is, with the force it has, is nanny Statism of the worst kind. I think members opposite ought to reflect on that a bit, because the moment they had the opportunity when they were in Opposition, they tried to use the label of \u201Cnanny State\u201D to prevent just such legislation as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b33adfd4a4744fb481be6a240fabf6f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b33adfd4a4744fb481be6a240fabf6f5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I follow on from my colleague from Nelson, Maryan Street, who rightfully points to the reality of there being issues in and around New Zealand, and I do not think anyone would deny that, but the Freedom Camping Bill is bizarre legislation that is attempting to kill what is part of the culture of New Zealand. In fact, I was just at Copperfields, grabbing my coffee from a young man in there called Robin. I said I would quote him, because I said I was going back in to speak and he asked what the bill was. I said it was the Freedom Camping Bill, and he asked what it does. I said it effectively stops people going and camping wherever councils put up a sign, and he said \u201CWell, isn\u2019t that the fun of New Zealand?\u201D. In fact, that is exactly right. That freedom we have that people from the UK, Ireland, and all around the world come to New Zealand to enjoy\u2014the ability to go into the outdoors that is not owned or controlled by anyone and to enjoy nature\u2014is something that goes right to the heart of what Kiwi culture is. This legislation\u2014look at it; this bill, this nanny State legislation\u2014will stop that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWell, I have Supplementary Order Paper 272 here from my colleague Phil Twyford, which is at the heart of it. It is at the heart of this, and it is what we will support. It says that it does not determine what people should do\u2014that is, it does not outlaw freedom camping\u2014but that if people deposit waste, interfere with things, or do damage, then they are liable for prosecution. It is a kind of Resource Management Act approach, really. It does not specify exactly what we should do. Let it be noted that the parties in this House that are telling us what we should do\u2014where we should poo and what we should do\u2014are National and ACT. I hate to think of the number of times that I have been in this Chamber and heard rantings and ravings from members on that side, and from Rodney Hide in particular, about compliance costs, about nanny States, and about telling us as Kiwis what we should do. Do members know what they are doing? They are telling us where we can poo\u2014they are telling us where we can poo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have always been told that\u2014not in the cities, but in the greater outdoors\u2014if people get caught short and have to exercise their natural feelings, then they should take a shovel. That usually addresses it. I have to say that that is not telling people what they should or should not do or where they should or should not do it; it is saying that people should minimise and reduce the impacts of it. It is Resource Management Act, bottom-line stuff. It affects base legislation. Why would you bring it into this House? I will tell members why. It is a shallow bit of politicking by Nick Smith. He has convinced his colleagues. I know that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Conservation, is quite embarrassed by it, because I believe she is truly committed to conservation and the outdoors, and encouraging people to get out there. She knows that this bill will kill that, because people will be paranoid about where they will poo. That, quite frankly, is just bizarre in a country of 4 million people. We have a number of visitors accepted, but we bring them into this country almost under false pretences if everywhere they go they will face signs put up by councils that could effectively have a blanket ban that is up to the councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECouncils find this whole proposition rather bizarre, because although they want to do something to reduce the impacts, the Government will not help with any infrastructural costs. The previous Labour Government did with our sewerage and water subsidy scheme. It helped councils that did not have the resources but were facing quite a lot of visitors\u2014Kaik\u014Dura in particular, and many others around the country\u2014and needed to put in place proper infrastructure. If there are no toilets, it is very hard for people to go to the toilet. So we need to build infrastructure to address the problem. As we have gone out and promoted New Zealand and encouraged more people to visit this country, the basic responsibility is to put in place better infrastructure. The Labour Government had assistance for councils. The National Government gave $14 billion in tax cuts to its mates, the rich, then said it had no money to do anything else. So it has chopped schemes like that, and now councils have the difficult option of saying they cannot afford to put in place proper toilets, although they want to attract visitors and they realise there is an impact. So Nick Smith, in his shallow way, said \u201COh, I\u2019ll give you a tool. Here you are: you can go and put up little signs and tell people they\u2019re not allowed to come here.\u201D Well, that goes to the heart of Kiwi culture. It goes to the heart of the experience that we sell and promote overseas, I have to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe images put out by Tourism New Zealand are of wide open spaces for people to have freedom to go out and enjoy. Most of those people understand that they have to minimise their impact on the environment. The problem is often if they are in a campervan\u2014even if it is self-contained\u2014at the end of their journey, or when the tank is full, there are simply not enough dump stations. The real impact out around the country is where self-contained campervans dump large volumes of effluent in one place. It is outrageous. It is shocking. There should be, as the Supplementary Order Paper from my good colleague Phil Twyford says, some penalty for that. But if we do not provide the facilities, then it is very hard to impose a fine. There will be a backlash, there is no doubt about that. We have amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 267 from the Minister to tidy up how the Government can charge people these penalties if they go away from New Zealand. So if they run offshore\u2014because most of them are visitors and come here for a time\u2014or hop on the plane and move off, all of a sudden there is a penalty imposed upon them. So there is a very complex set of rules and regulations in the bill to ensure that we can get the money out of them and that they can be charged, or, if they are let off for some technical reason, then the obligation is on the rental camper van companies to refund the money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAll the complex rules in this bill are unnecessary. What we have to do is put out a code of practice, put in place some proper infrastructure, and put up some signs to encourage the right culture and behaviour\u2014for example, signs could say \u201CNo toileting for the next 50 kilometres\u201D. That is a clear indication that it is not acceptable to go to the toilet on the side of the road. Do not say \u201CDo not camp\u201D. and have some overzealous and, dare I say it, maybe farmer-controlled councils that are not necessarily friendly to the tourism industry saying \u201CRight! That\u2019s it. We don\u2019t want any freedom camping. They can go to the camping grounds.\u201D The problem is that although we have some wonderful camping-grounds, and I encourage people to go to them, what we are selling as New Zealand is an experience and an amazing opportunity for tourists from anywhere around the world to come and enjoy our culture and our country at their leisure and their pace. We are chopping that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have to say, as a former Minister of Tourism, I find that rather sad. I find the whole thing rather unnecessary, and I cannot understand how National and ACT, given their ranting and raving on things like the nanny State and compliance costs, can possibly put forward legislation like this. There are better ways of dealing with this issue. There are far better ways, and I hope that National will see its way clear, if it wants to push through this legislation, to at least amend it through the wise Supplementary Order Paper put up by my colleague to make judgment on the effects on the environment, not on the proposal to either camp or stay overnight in a place. As a good friend from Copperfields\u2014Robin\u2014said: \u201CThat\u2019s what the fun of New Zealand is.\u201D\u2014being able to go somewhere and camp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fc51b49869481cabed4b011539436d\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Cam Calder understands that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857e27b56259499491b30fb296f63d1d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Most of them understand it, I think, but they are just too scared, because a shallow piece of legislation has been railed through Cabinet by Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022280a2e5aa0464357aab33b20ec339aad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022280a2e5aa0464357aab33b20ec339aad\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is great to follow my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor, who is a former Minister of Tourism. I had a brief, fleeting moment as a Minister of Conservation. Freedom camping was an issue that we looked at when we were in Government, and it came up at a mayoral forum with senior Cabinet Ministers, which we held on a regular basis. We realised there was a problem, not because the Rugby World Cup was coming up and we were going to dump down ridiculous legislation to try to tidy up the motorways of New Zealand for our Rugby World Cup visitors, but because there was a genuine concern about people littering on our State highways and in places of quite high visibility. But beneath that there was also concern about environmental degradation. We were really concerned about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EMayor Geddes\u2019 solution was where we were at when we lost the election, and for us to now have to sit here and watch National bring in a bill that is 64 pages long is an embarrassment. The Freedom Camping Bill says that in New Zealand people can freedom camp but only in certain places. Visitors cannot camp it up when they come to our country to enjoy the lifestyle that New Zealanders love. The bill is absolutely a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It is an embarrassment to us in Labour that we are seeing this nanny State Government bring in such stupid legislation. There is now also a Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister of Conservation to tidy up the infringement and penalty regime, because the Government got that wrong, too. It is an embarrassment to us in this country who are saying: \u201CHaere mai. Welcome to New Zealand and enjoy the Rugby World Cup.\u201D I am embarrassed, and we are definitely opposing this bill, especially after listening to submissions during the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI come from Rotorua. We have a by-law in Rotorua that works perfectly well. We have never needed legislation that is 64 pages long for us to say to visitors: \u201CWhen you come to New Zealand, these are the places where we want you to go. Don\u2019t freedom camp in this place, because there are no ablution blocks anywhere near it, but these are the places you can go to.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think this Government and the Minister of Tourism\u2014who, for goodness\u2019 sake, is the Prime Minister of this country\u2014have failed to understand the very nature of the visitors to our country. They come here to explore the great outdoors. That is what they love. They come here and they want to get in the great outdoors. New Zealand is a long, skinny piece of string, as our previous Prime Minister called it. The visitors think they are freedom campers because they get in their campervan, they can travel anywhere, north and south, and they cannot get lost. They can go off the north-south continuum in this country, and they can find their way back to the main routes to the next town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe bill is putting in something that those visitors will not even know about. They will not even understand. We will have an infringement regime that pings people when they get to the airport. It will say: \u201CWe got you when you were going through Rotorua, when you stopped at Rotoiti\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e902b4cc418a4b9b823878c85021a773\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220314f1e03ac0454d8e0a633873e70f5f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: You are not a visitor, Mr Chairperson; I mean the visitor. The infringement regime says: \u201CWe\u2019ve got you, and you\u2019ve got an instant fine here of $200. Hope you had a good trip. Bang! Here\u2019s your fine. Pay it before you leave the country or there will be problems when you come back into the country.\u201D It is just silly and it is just embarrassing for us as hosts who are saying: \u201CCome to our country. When you come here, enjoy the great outdoors. Please don\u2019t spoil the great outdoors experience by littering our highways and our byways, but do enjoy yourself while you\u2019re here.\u201D This is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of this bill that is ridiculous\u2014the Minister of Conservation has become absolutely passionate about conservation\u2014is that there is no way that the Department of Conservation front-line staff want to be involved in snooping around the country and checking up on who is pooping on the side of the roads that are not on the conservation estate. They do not want to have anything to do with it. They want to go out there and look after species that are threatened, not tourists, who will feel a bit like threatened species when they come to this country. The Department of Conservation wants to get on with front-line work. When I know that there are cuts to Department of Conservation staff and conservancies around the country, it makes this stupid bill even sillier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002247db6eb0b0a14e239aa6bd3658cbbebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247db6eb0b0a14e239aa6bd3658cbbebb\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Committee should be honoured to be listening to a descendant of the original freedom camper in New Zealand, some 30-odd generations ago. My tupuna Kupe turned up and he was the first person, according to legend, to set foot in Aotearoa. He was the original freedom camper when he set up shop at his first campsite. But he did not actually form a permanent dwelling; he circumnavigated all of the North Island, naming places on the way, and therefore I claim him as the original freedom camper in Aotearoa. Here is his direct descendant standing up who follows his legacy, because every Christmas my family and I also participate in freedom camping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAccording to clause 5, the meaning of freedom camp is to camp other than at a camping ground. We do not camp at a camping ground; we camp on private property. This is a slightly different circumstance. But it is within 200 metres of a motor vehicle accessible area. It is not near a great walking track. The only walking track at our camp is the great walk from the sleeping tent over to the food tent, and back again. That is the great walk that I participate in when I am freedom camping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db05319da7045bfb65e86cb2a40eeee\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Many times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e2d9e5aea8433cb1d53b1c98216fc0\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Many times in the one day. We are concerned about the potential for a blanket ban on freedom camping. I take up the point that our colleague Phil Twyford made about what constitutes a blanket ban. Is it 99 percent? Is it 98 percent? Is it 70 percent? There can be bans on huge swathes of local authority areas and they can still not be called or defined, according to this bill, as a blanket ban, but in effect that is a blanket ban under clause 3(2A). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe problem with this bill is that it does not address the problem. The problem is not that people pull up in their campervans or pitch a tent and camp; the problem is with the disposal of waste or effluent\u2014call it what you may. That is the problem and that is the issue that should be addressed, not the fact that people might pull up overnight and camp. We have heard from the previous Minister of Tourism, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, and he would know that the term \u201CFIT\u201D in the tourism trade is \u201Cfree and independent traveller\u201D. We want to attract more free and independent travellers to New Zealand because, generally, they tend to be older people who like to not have any set schedule. They do not like to get on a bus and be taken from city A, to city B, to city C. They like to make up their plans as they go along the way. They like to pull over here and there and just camp where they can and when they can. That is what it means to be a free and independent traveller. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThese free and independent travellers tend to be wealthier. They bring more money and they tend to spend more money. We should be encouraging these people to come and have a great time, enjoy themselves, go where they want and when they want, but respect the places they stay at, just like my ancestor Kupe would have done back in his time. We need to encourage these people to stay, and then go home and tell their friends and their families what a great time they had in Aotearoa New Zealand, and encourage those people to also come over here and participate in the freedom camping experience. They tend to stay longer and they tend to spend more. We need to encourage those tourists, not, as the Hon Steve Chadwick referred to, pop them here, there, and everywhere, and get them as they are leaving the country. We should not say: \u201CThere you go. Here is a $200 fine because you were camping somewhere where a local authority said you shouldn\u2019t.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThere is the issue of not having enough places for freedom campers to stay at. I am talking about tourists; I am not talking necessarily about New Zealanders who want to go pig hunting, surfing, or whatever, and end up camping just off the road before they go on their big adventure. I am talking about the tourists who are driving around. The camping grounds are normally full in the summer period or when we have something on, such as the Rugby World Cup. There will be a lot of freedom campers at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI note the decision by this Government to do away with the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, which the Hon Maryan Street touched on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00226cee6f9da9854c7c8a4b2c85a48a7883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cee6f9da9854c7c8a4b2c85a48a7883\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairperson Robertson. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e hoa m\u0101. I am taking a call on the Freedom Camping Bill. Earlier this evening I was listening to my colleague Rahui Katene in the debate on the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill. She referred to the wisdom of the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei: A Report into Claims Concerning New Zealand Law and Policy Affecting M\u0101ori Culture and Identity. For all intents and purposes, it is known as the Wai 262 report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn that report there are a number of recommendations that suggest that the Resource Management Act should be reformed so that the Crown and all local authorities are more strongly compelled to engage meaningfully with the kaitiaki. The report outlines exactly how that can be achieved. It could be achieved by developing an enhanced iwi management plan, with polices and proposals developed by, agreed to, and adopted by both the iwi and local authority representatives. Another approach could be to create an improved plan to make joint management with, and a transfer of power to, iwi much more easily implemented. A third approach might be to recommend that core national policy statements are developed on M\u0101ori influence and active participation in the Resource Management Act processes. Those are great ideas, I reckon, but given the impending importance of the event on 26 November, I suggest that it does not appear likely that any progress will be made in responding to the recommendations made in that report, certainly not in the immediate future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, the M\u0101ori Party has come up with the challenge of seeing how we can draw upon such an excellent reference point for other legislation where it applies. The Freedom Camping Bill is a very clear example of legislation where we can encourage a far more effective relationship between local authorities and mana whenua. The M\u0101ori Party, through my colleague Rahui Katene, has taken the step of introducing Supplementary Order Paper 266 to amend this bill to require local authorities to recognise, respect, and act in accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi when exercising powers or functions under the legislation. This amendment will introduce a clause that suggests that in order to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to take appropriate account of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, local authorities and any person acting on behalf of local authorities must act in a way that is consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi when exercising powers or functions under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe say we need to have a more proactive approach, to encourage local authorities to communicate meaningfully with the relevant iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau. My colleague Rahui Katene recently advised me\u2014and it comes with some experience, I think\u2014of what has happened down in Kaik\u014Dura, where I used to teach at the start of my teaching career. In Kaik\u014Dura there is a place called Ng\u0101 Niho P\u0101, which is just in behind Takahanga Marae, if one has ever been to Kaik\u014Dura. It is a traditional p\u0101 site of Kaik\u014Dura and, of course, Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2014rightly so\u2014became pretty agitated when some so-called freedom campers were using the traditional p\u0101 site to empty their toilet waste. In case people think that that is an isolated approach, I say I am aware that there have been concerns in my electorate of Waiariki from one end of the electorate to the other, from places such as the Tongariro National Park through to Te Urewera National Park and the eastern Bay of Plenty, and up and down the East Coast, where freedom campers tend to move. Quite rightly, this issue is something that we have to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe think this bill is pretty useful, because it sets up an offence of freedom camping, which is described as taking place when the flora or fauna is interfered with or damaged, or waste is deposited on to the area other than into the waste receptacles that have been set aside for that. But the M\u0101ori Party has a philosophical opposition to any bits of legislation that are introduced for the sake of creating a new list of fines and punishments, without due consideration being given to proactive and responsible behaviour to avoid the same mistakes reoccurring. We believe that the amendment in the name of Rahui Katene on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party is such an approach. It encourages local authorities to take, as I said earlier, appropriate account of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and to act in ways that recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility as a Treaty partner. Acting in a Treaty-complaint manner will ensure that there is consultation with iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022029a8aebc5d04dcc8dd09caf41d1b59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029a8aebc5d04dcc8dd09caf41d1b59c\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a few minutes to have a call on the Freedom Camping Bill. I think there is general agreement throughout the House that freedom camping in New Zealand is a valued tradition, and it is part of our way of life\u2014and no wonder, when we have so much beautiful scenery and we are the best country in the world. Having said that, unfortunately there are some behaviours that do need to be discouraged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI want to take a call to address just a couple of the issues and questions that have been raised by the Labour Opposition. The first one is in relation to blanket bans. There is absolutely no intention in this legislation to allow local authorities to issue a blanket ban on freedom camping in their area. In fact, one of the amendments that I think was pointed out was in clause 3(2A), which specifically states that \u201Cthe powers of regulation under the Act do not allow for freedom camping to be prohibited on all land\u201D, so that therefore addresses the blanket ban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, it is further provided later on in Part 2 that the by-law has to be appropriate and proportionate. We think we have put in sufficient safeguards to prevent a local authority thinking it has carte blanche to issue a total blanket ban on freedom camping in New Zealand. The other misunderstanding that I think the Opposition has is that this legislation bans freedom camping. In fact, it does the complete opposite. It is permissive. It permits it, and it actually specifically provides for freedom camping, which, until now, has not been protected or enshrined in law. This is actually good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe final issue I will raise is from the Hon Steve Chadwick, whom I recognise as a former Minister of Conservation. She made the interesting comment that there is a by-law that provides for this in Rotorua, which is working well. Well, actually, all this legislation does is provide for other local authorities to have the same by-law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223196ca0889d04588993cb6e1f70cd1ad\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: They can do it without a law. They don\u2019t need the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a3c59bf4ce4115adac6db658025ae5\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: But what actually happens under the by-law in Rotorua is if the council wants to enforce it, it has to go through the courts, and that wastes court time and several thousands of dollars in legal fees, when an instant $200 fine should be all that is required. It is actually pretty light-handed, but I do agree that this is only one of the tools in the tool box.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe do need to get across the culture that spoiling our pristine countryside is not acceptable. Freedom camping is acceptable; irresponsible spoiling of our countryside is not. That will take more than just one piece of legislation to stop; it will take a change of attitude, education, working with the Department of Conservation and local authorities, working together with various sector groups, appropriate signage, and a whole lot of other tools. This is one small tool in the tool box that we hope will discourage those irresponsible people who want to spoil our countryside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022a24a147f833e40e2ab0b262c549bb7f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a24a147f833e40e2ab0b262c549bb7f9\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take only a short call on the Freedom Camping Bill. We are obviously not supporting it whatsoever. I was not too sure what the M\u0101ori Party were doing, whether they were supporting it. There was a lot of verbosity there but not much understanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI actually think this legislation will be decided in the courts. The reason I say that is there is a lot of ambiguity here around the meaning. In particular I would like to talk about clause 5, \u201CMeaning of freedom camp\u201D. If we go to subclause (1A) it says: \u201CIn this Act, freedom camping does not include the following activities:\u201D. It talks about temporary and short-term parking. When I am parking in the city, I know what temporary and short-term parking means. But when in the great wilderness that is New Zealand, what does that mean? If we say that temporary does not mean permanent, does that mean one can park a car for 3 days? Is that temporary? It is certainly not permanent. There is not a permanent structure there, the car is not in my garage; it is not in anything I own. By any account, that is in fact temporary parking. Is it 1 day, 2 days, 3 days\u2014a week even? That is certainly temporary parking when one is on holiday or doing a trek up and down the country. The other term is \u201Cshort-term parking\u201D. Again, when in the city I think I know what short-term means, but in terms of a 4-week summer holiday, if one is driving from spot to spot, does short-term mean 3 days, 4 days? Does it mean 1 day? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI think that a smart lawyer representing a client who wanted to make a point, or a principle, could drive a bus, a campervan, or a housetruck straight through the middle of this, because I would suspect they could quite easily argue that they were not freedom camping under the meaning of the Act because they were temporary parking, they were not permanent parking, or they were short-term parking. Perhaps they were on a holiday for 6 months and during that term a 4-day stopover was considered as short-term in the scheme of things. The other thing, if we go to subclause (1), is the meaning of freedom camping. It includes a tent or other temporary structure; a caravan; a car, campervan, housetruck, or other motor vehicle. Well it is pretty obvious that this bill is being rushed through for the Rugby World Cup, because this is what happens in the middle of winter; people stay in these things. But if I know many young people, and I take myself as an example, when I was a young man, footloose and fancy-free during the holidays, I would jump in the car, grab a sleeping bag, and sleep on a beach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457906f876fe4ecba3542aa0bdb65d20\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: When was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e19c4e4da6d947be981c18372b059ba0\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: A long time ago, sometime last century. I would grab a sleeping bag and sleep under the stars, under a tree, or on a beach. But according to this bill, that is not freedom camping. But that is where a lot of the problem lies. As my honourable colleague Kelvin Davis said, we need to address the issue of people defecating in the wilderness. But if one is sleeping in a sleeping bag under the stars on a beach for a 3-day period, according to this bill one is not freedom camping. Again, what is the definition of \u201Ctemporary structure\u201D? The Crown may argue that a sleeping bag is a temporary structure; I doubt it. I would say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608e145164f7425c87f2145f3f820a42\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What about the stars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cb0a13347d94848b17af77beee8b8d5\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Are they temporary? Well, they are in Christchurch at the moment because one cannot see the sky or the stars. It will be interesting to see who starts challenging this. Someone will, I know that. It will go through the court. What will happen is that someone will be picked up after staying on a beach for 3 days with a group of mates in sleeping bags. They will have taken no care about where they do what they do, and they will be picked up and fined an instant $200. One of them will be the son or the daughter of very wealthy person and they will say no. They will be a third-year law student and decide to test the case in court. This is classic legal systems 101. What defines freedom camping? The issue will be what the definitions of temporary and short-term parking are. Is temporary and short-term parking 1 hour, half a day, a full day, 3 days, or a week? Does a temporary structure mean a sleeping bag? Temporary structure is almost a bit of an oxymoron but I suppose it means a tent. The bill says \u201Ctent or other temporary structure\u201D but a sleeping bag, on a beach, in a car, for 3 days\u2014according to the bill\u2014is not freedom camping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u002239ece22e24a640c188fd183220111021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239ece22e24a640c188fd183220111021\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002252eb2868b3b54415ac0f69927afdf3c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252eb2868b3b54415ac0f69927afdf3c3\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the meaning of \u201Clocal authority area\u201D. The bill states: \u201Clocal authority area\u2014(a) means an area of land\u2014(i) that is within the district or region of a local authority;\u201D. It is the areas of land that are of concern. They are where people will park up or camp in. I think there is a pragmatic, practical solution that, if the Government had not cut the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, could have involved a joint venture between the Government, local authorities, and other organisations within the community, such as schools, sports clubs, and possibly even marae, so that the whole cost of providing facilities is not borne solely by the Crown. You see, most schools, sports clubs, and marae would love to have their ablution blocks upgraded and improved. I think there would have been real scope to do that through something like the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, which the Government has cut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThere would be issues to do with getting registered or whatever, if the car-park or sports field at the school or rugby club, say, or the car-park at the marae, was to be used as a temporary camping-ground. But I think that would ease a lot of congestion on the streets. I have been to Nelson and seen the street that the Hon Maryan Street spoke about where, in one evening, 26 cars parked up. There were two temporary toilets\u2014Portaloos\u2014and a couple of rubbish bins there for the campers to use, because there was no room at the local camping-ground. If there was a bit of thought, we could come up with a solution whereby any overflow could go to those sorts of facilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWhere I grew up, the ablution block\u2014the shower facilities and toilets\u2014in the first-ever rugby club I played for have not been touched in 40 years. They are a mess, but with a bit of thought, using something such as the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, the club itself, the local authority, and the Government could all pitch in to upgrade those facilities. There is a huge car-park there, and a huge sports field, which in summer is nice and hard. People could park there if there was overflow from camping grounds. In fact, those bodies could perhaps set themselves up to get a bit of income for the local sports club, because these days they are certainly struggling for members and struggling to raise funds in other ways. With a bit of thought and a bit of organisation, that could be a way for the particular sports club I am talking about to get a bit of income over the course of the summer break, when the facilities are not being used for sports. I believe that with a bit of thought we could solve this issue, and not have people camping out on roads or in car-parks in the middle of town. So it would not be the major problem that it is now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI endorse what my colleague Stuart Nash said about the possibility that this matter could well be settled in court, because of the lack of definition of short-term and temporary parking. I think he raised a very valid point about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI also say that I think the Supplementary Order Paper from Rahui Katene is a very good Supplementary Order Paper. The Labour Opposition will support it. I think it is really important. It is a pity that it was missed out in the first place. The Supplementary Order Paper inserts a Tiriti o Waitangi clause that basically makes sure that the Crown recognises and respects Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the responsibilities it has to take account of te Tiriti. The Supplementary Order Paper also deals with the responsibility of local authorities having to take account of te Tiriti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIt is really important that local M\u0101ori are involved in any decision making on the areas where camping may or may not be banned. It is very important that M\u0101ori have this input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5a0e024a5e2401ab0c2dcab46a3abb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5a0e024a5e2401ab0c2dcab46a3abb3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take what will be a very brief call on the Freedom Camping Bill. I think this is a ridiculous bill. It is a total overreaction to what is a real problem. I am not saying that it is not a real problem, but this is a total overreaction to it. I am a freedom camper. I have quite often, with old flatmates, driven up to the Tararuas, parked in the car-park overnight on a Friday night, and gone tramping the next day. Under the definitions and provisions provided in this bill, we could be slapped with a $200 instant fine for doing that. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and an absolute attack on what is a Kiwi way of life\u2014the ability to drive to a place, park, sleep in the car, or camp beside the car, and go tramping or hunting. This bill attacks that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere is a real problem with people leaving a mess behind by not using adequate camping facilities; there is also, however, a responsibility on us to make sure that those facilities are provided. I note that this Government, of course, has cut the funding for providing sanitary disposal facilities, and that is absolutely ridiculous as well. This is an overreaction to what is a real problem, but it could be much more easily solved, and I think this bill is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022951731df1aa2473bac6ff1e6f5152c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022951731df1aa2473bac6ff1e6f5152c4a\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002286d706f1792349d8a1f327e2331f8b04\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000621\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 266 in the name of Rahui Katene be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223417ffa0b45e4fe08e5169e5563c2312\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000622\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291e355f2afa64ec8a6f8935a2fcec8cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c42ef70eeae64d75bbe31c8d543a3ccc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002291db9216ef0040a29d7d101a85eb4626\u0022\u003EPart 2  Where freedom camping permitted\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002281e1f91a834d47b9b3c888f7c7042bec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e1f91a834d47b9b3c888f7c7042bec\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to Part 2 of the Freedom Camping Bill. As many of the members on this side of the Chamber have made clear, we think that Part 2 is another example of\u2014no matter what you call it\u2014over-the-top, heavy-handed, or sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut legislation. Part 2 again typifies what we think is a bit of an overreaction from the Government to what we see as a problem, but not a significant-enough problem to basically take away the freedoms of Kiwis who have enjoyed freedom camping in some of our most pristine and beautiful places. Part 2 deals with where freedom camping is permitted. What is now in store for New Zealanders and visitors is that some of our most beautiful areas\u2014beaches, vistas, and views\u2014are no longer allowed to be enjoyed. One cannot park up, have a look around, and have a bit of a kip without having what could be called ablution police keeping an eye on us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI would like to open up a window to the world of what it would be like to be one of those people who will be forced to police this kind of law. What exactly will they be confronted with? I think that, along with parking wardens, the people who will be tasked with policing the Freedom Camping Bill will be in one of the most hated occupations for both New Zealanders and visitors to New Zealand. These people will be in some of our most pristine areas, and they will be forced to sit in car-parks, rest stop areas, or places where one can look at some of the most beautiful views in New Zealand, and be forced to snoop on what people are doing there. So for families sitting at home now, I tell them that if they are out enjoying some time with the family at Christmas time\u2014just as Kelvin Davis does\u2014and they get caught short, it will now be the job of some people to whack members of those families with a $200 instant fine if they are found defecating or urinating in some of those public places\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222759ef40fccc4ff088a5016f9851324a\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Or just camping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b273b6c0490243f5b328e6e4e417fc4f\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014or just camping; that is right. Families now run the risk of being slapped with what we think is an over-the-top $200 instant fine. We will have to hire people to do that kind of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs Steve Chadwick said in her earlier contribution to the bill, we do not need those people to do that kind of work. There are other means and ways to make sure we crack down on this problem. People hired by local bodies or by the Department of Conservation should not be doing that kind of work. They should not be snooping on people who are enjoying some of our most pristine areas. They should be making sure that other by-laws are being adhered to, and that some of the flora, fauna, and wildlife in those areas is being saved. They should not be keeping an eye on people who are enjoying a night out under the stars in their sleeping bags\u2014as Stuart Nash commented on earlier\u2014to make sure they are not defecating or urinating in public areas. That is not their job, and we do not believe that it should be their job to monitor that kind of behaviour in some of these areas. Again this bill is heavy-handed and a punitive measure that threatens the freedom to camp under the stars that Kiwis have enjoyed over generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI would like to pick up a point that Stuart Nash made earlier about the definition of what freedom camping is, and what short-term freedom camping in some of these brilliant areas is. My colleague Chris Hipkins pointed out that he has been on a number of camping expeditions where he has done that. I would like to know what will happen to the surfing expeditions now. It is not unknown for a young bunch of lads to jump in a car on a Friday night, head to the beach, and camp out for an early start on a Saturday morning to make sure they can get the early waves. Now, under this legislation, what will happen to that? It is unclear as to whether that is freedom camping. A lot of surfies will be sitting at home wondering what this National Government is doing to the freedom that they, and their parents, have enjoyed for many years, which is to go and sleep under the stars, or in their cars, in some of those areas close to the beach so they can get the early morning waves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EIt also raises the possibility of freedom camping being effectively outlawed in large parts of the country, and I think that is a sad by-product of this bill. It leaves uncertainty in the minds of Kiwis\u2014can we park here, can we sleep here, or will we get a $200 fine? Now that uncertainty is there with many Kiwis, and it will leave a lot of confusion for many Kiwi families who enjoy some of these most pristine areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4945e754ae24ac1af316c7878c3ad1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4945e754ae24ac1af316c7878c3ad1b\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am referring to clause 16, \u201CPublic notification of freedom camping notices\u201D. Subclause (1) states: \u201CA freedom camping notice is published in accordance with this section if a summary of the notice\u2014(a) is published in the Gazette; and (b) is published in the following newspapers: (i) in a daily newspaper circulating in each of the cities of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin;\u201D. My concern is for overseas tourists who land in New Zealand and have not happened to pick up a copy of a daily newspaper in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, or Dunedin, in which that freedom camping notice was published. The chances are that they would not have seen it, or that they would not even look in the section where that sort of thing would be published. So those freedom campers\u2014free independent travellers\u2014will be journeying around New Zealand and will have a nice surprise when they pull up somewhere and wonder who the person is approaching them and saying that they have committed an offence that is liable for $200. That is not the face that we want to portray to our travellers from overseas, but I think we are risking that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI know that ignorance is not an excuse, but how can we expect people from overseas to turn up to New Zealand and know exactly what these regulations are? I hope there will be some sort of full-blown education campaign, so that international travellers will know what the circumstances are, and so that they will not be stung by that sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI note clause 11A, \u201CBylaws must not absolutely prohibit freedom camping\u201D. This is similar to clause 11(2)(a). Clause 11A(1) states: \u201CA local authority may not make bylaws under section 11 that have the effect of prohibiting freedom camping in all the local authority areas in its district.\u201D Subclause (2) states: \u201CThis section is for the avoidance of doubt.\u201D But the doubt still exists\u2014the doubt that our colleague Phil Twyford raised earlier. What is a blanket ban? The provision says that a local authority may not make by-laws that have the effect of prohibiting freedom camping in all the local authority areas in its district. Will the local authority not have that provision, then, in just one area of its district, or in two areas of its district? I think there are still some vagaries there that will allow overzealous local authorities to sting all and sundry, in a roundabout way. I do not think that subclause (2) removes the avoidance of all doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EClause 11(5) states: \u201CThe local authority must use the special consultative procedure set out in section 83 of the Local Government Act 2002 (as modified by section 86 of that Act) in\u2014(a) making a bylaw under this section; or (b) amending a bylaw made under this section; or (c) revoking a bylaw under this section.\u201D So regarding the special consultative procedure, section 83 in the Local Government Act 2002 states: \u201CWhere this Act or any other enactment requires a local authority to use or adopt the special consultative procedure, that local authority must\u201D\u2014and in subsection (1)(e) it says\u2014\u201Cgive public notice, and such other notice as the local authority considers appropriate, of the proposal and the consultations being undertaken;\u201D. The part that is of concern is what the local authority considers appropriate, because we are concerned that some local authorities may be overzealous, just go too hard, and, as we already said, use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. So it comes down to what is appropriate according to one local authority and what is appropriate according to another local authority when they refer to the Local Government Act 2002. There are vagaries and there could be confusion as to what the local authority considers appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00221a2df04352f04c2fa40df5146564fcf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a2df04352f04c2fa40df5146564fcf8\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up where my colleague Kelvin Davis left off and make some comments about the second clause in Part 2, which is about the bylaw-making power of local authorities. To borrow the turn of phrase from Stuart Nash, I think it was, we could drive a housetruck through the wording in some of these clauses. Subclause (2) of clause 11 says that \u201CA local authority may make a bylaw under subsection (1) only if it is satisfied that\u2014(a) the bylaw is necessary \u2026 (i) to protect the area:\u201D\u2014to protect the area. I mean, that is ridiculous. That is so wide-ranging and so lacking in any kind of concrete meaning or specificity that it just makes a complete mockery of the bill. A council can make a by-law if it is satisfied that this bill is necessary to protect the area. Well, what is it protecting the area against\u2014or whom? It is an absolute nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EParagraph (b) of clause 11(2) states: \u201Cthe bylaw is the most appropriate and proportionate way \u2026\u201D. Well, there is an irony right there that this entire bill is disproportionate. That is the problem with it. It criminalises a whole class of people and a whole class of activity unnecessarily, when it could actually be focusing on the problem\u2014that is, people who dump waste in scenic places. The by-law is supposed to be the most appropriate and proportionate way of addressing the perceived problem\u2014but perceived by whom? If there is a perception that there is a problem, a council can pass a by-law to outlaw freedom camping across all but 100 percent of its territory. The legislation is absolutely ridiculous. It is heavy-handed and it is punitive. So if there is a perceived problem and a council thinks it needs to protect an area, then that is justification enough under this bill for the council to pass a by-law that will outlaw freedom camping; a freedom that generations of New Zealanders have enjoyed will be able to be outlawed across large swathes of territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddca70ee0dd54fcf9087f5830fbe3823\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t outlaw it, Phil. Do you remember the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83b8090db4d48f7a96f7494187a3b46\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Louise Upston has occasionally opened her mouth in this debate. She refuses to get up and take a call. I do not know why. She sits there on the backbenches on the Government side, saying \u201CRead the bill. Read the bill!\u201D. Well, I know from the select committee discussions that Louise Upston had grave concerns about this bill, as did Cam Calder. They had serious concerns that this bill is punitive and heavy-handed, and that it threatens the freedom of New Zealanders to enjoy the great outdoors. I challenge Louise Upston to get up and take a call. At least the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Conservation, had the good grace to get up and engage in a little bit of debate, and I thank her for that. But, to be honest, I was mystified, because all the Minister did was repeat what is already in the bill, supposedly to avoid doubt, and that was the statement that this bill does not allow blanket bans. Well, we have already asked the Minister what percentage of a ban is acceptable. Is 98 percent OK? Is 95 percent OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd59c540ce44b5da8f022ca66f14acd\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: 99?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa31a75836db4ff69b009f963b3ea726\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe 99 percent is, if there is a perceived problem that needs to be remedied by the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98735902ff541db8a5a2287cc246631\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: What about freedom camping in a council car-park? That might be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2e0b7a4f0a4a489d8412a8b0cd0620\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Rick Barker; that is a very good suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister also said that the bill specifically protects freedom camping unless it is outlawed. But that is a kind of Alice-in-Wonderland logic: if one says that it is so, then it must be so. Well, it is not. The status quo makes it quite difficult for councils to outlaw freedom camping across large areas of land. It does. It makes it quite difficult for them to do that, and it is not easy for them to enforce it. But with this bill Minister Wilkinson is not, as she said, handing councils one small tool in a tool box. She is giving them a powerful and efficient tool to outlaw freedom camping across large swathes of New Zealand, and to enforce that ban in a heavy-handed way, with $200 instant fines for people who happen to find themselves parked up and sleeping overnight in a prohibited area. What punitive, bureaucratic, and authoritarian streak lies at the heart of the National Government that it thinks it is OK to deal with this problem, this specific problem of people dumping waste in some of our country\u2019s scenic areas, by imposing this heavy-handed regime? It is way beyond what any normal person would consider to be a proportionate response to this problem. It threatens a fundamental freedom that New Zealanders have enjoyed for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614e9d6598e141fa9e113a053775ace2\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: It actually makes it more pleasant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b199a696094d5886b41f128c02f206\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: All I can assume from that outburst from Louise Upston is that she has never gone away for a weekend surfing, tramping, or hunting, and has never slept on the side of the road or pitched a tent in some beautiful part of New Zealand as she has gone off climbing mountains, tramping, or fishing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae77b37e7d124062b16a7f6523b56c2e\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Five-star hotels in Europe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d2b52203e6431eb044d823da582a13\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It must be that she stays in five-star hotels, and that she does not give a damn for the thousands and thousands of New Zealanders who spend their retirement travelling around this beautiful nation of ours in self-contained campervans, enjoying the great outdoors in this country, and who are fearful that this bureaucratic and punitive law will crack down on their freedom to enjoy New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI know that Cam Calder is a man of the world. He has travelled around. I bet he has slept on beaches. He has probably slept under hedgerows, has Cam Calder. He does not like this bill, but why will he not get up and take a call? Why will he not get up and take a call and explain why he is voting for this heavy-handed, bureaucratic legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022482177935f2b4aa8a3ab07600dc50ca9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022482177935f2b4aa8a3ab07600dc50ca9\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00224f86a44b732d4e659c11b23380f09df2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f86a44b732d4e659c11b23380f09df2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I refer to subpart 2 in Part 2 of the Freedom Camping Bill, which relates to details of freedom camping on conservation land. It starts off very well, I have to say. Clause 13 states: \u201CFreedom camping is permitted on any conservation land unless freedom camping is restricted or prohibited on the land.\u201D Clause 14(1) goes through a process of: \u201CThe Director-General may, by erecting a sign, \u2026\u201D, etc. Clause 15(1) states further: \u201CThe Director-General may, by notice published in accordance \u2026\u201D. Then it goes on to say how the good people of New Zealand will be informed of this, and states that a notice must define the conservation land, and then it must be published in the Gazette. Well, that is a good publication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b6413cc4e141e9bfbb18355229476f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Widely read.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ea30408cdd4a97a479a96a5120a34c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Widely read in New Zealand circles. I know that all my hunting, fishing, and surfing friends always read the Gazette. But to be fair, and we have to be fair to the Minister, clause 16(1)(b) states the notice can be published in the following newspapers, of course: \u201C(i) in a daily newspaper circulating in each of the cities of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin; or\u201D\u2014not and\u2014\u201C(ii) if the Director-General is satisfied that the notice is of local or regional interest only,\u201D in a local paper. So we are to have laws that, for the most part, affect areas in regional New Zealand, but there may not be a requirement for there to be notification in any of the newspapers in the areas where freedom camping will be banned. What sort of consultation process has there been? What sort of authoritarian regime are we setting up here? It is just bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI know now that regional and provincial newspapers quite often get up in arms about the lack of consultation and about the arrogance of the \u201Cshiny bums\u201D, as they say, who sit on their chuffs in Wellington, make these laws\u2014I guess we are some of them now; we spend long enough here\u2014and impose them on the good people up and down this country. They are the people who understand nature and who go out and enjoy it: the fishers, the hunters, and the surfers\u2014all of those people. Yet the people\u2014and I have to say it is National and the ACT Party people who want to impose this law\u2014have said that it is OK and that we can notify people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203945f529cf5465791652f11024a8e51\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: And the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a6292b4e8044150ba48ae8953422f27\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the M\u0101ori Party too, that is right. Actually, that is scandalous. I have just realised that. M\u0101ori people will be criminalised for parking up and camping on their beaches and by their rivers. How could the M\u0101ori Party support this bill? How could they support such Draconian, authoritarian, and quite arrogant legislation? It is understandable, National and ACT members supporting it. They might have three or four toilets in their own homes and cannot understand why people should not be able to go somewhere and go to the toilet. But not all M\u0101ori\u2014many of them in Northland, in particular\u2014have ready access to toilets in their homes, so they understand the ways of working with nature. One could call it composting or whatever, but a good shovel and a spade can address the issues of effluent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI can understand that National and ACT members cannot quite get their heads around it. They have said that a notice in the newspapers circulating in the cities will be good enough to inform people of the areas that will be banned from freedom camping. That is outrageous. It goes right to the core of Wellington arrogance. The kind of criticism that we as politicians get every single day when we are out in the provinces is that we in Wellington do not understand and that we have no idea what is going on. That is what the people say, and they will be quite right in this case. In fact, those good people do not always hop in their cars and rush to the city for a holiday. Many of them travel down the road to another part of beautiful New Zealand and to the wilderness\u2014for example, from Westport to Punakaiki, or from Nelson down to Fox Glacier, or to Gillespies Beach, or anywhere like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are many, many options, but they may not know, and may have had no notification whatsoever, that the area is conservation land until they arrive at the place, and there may or may not be a sign there. So their planned journey and experience in wilderness New Zealand or beautiful New Zealand will come to a grinding halt. They will have to make a call on whether they commit an illegal act and stay as they were planning to do, yet have no impact on the environment. They might have brought a shovel or be self-contained\u2014who knows? But someone in Wellington, in conjunction with the local council, or the Minister of Conservation in this particular case, has decided that it is conservation land. The Minister has decided, having been given advice from the Director-General of Conservation, that these areas shall be out of bounds and banned for camping. The Minister or the department will then issue a notice in a daily newspaper that circulates in each of the cities of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat about Nelson? Did the Hon Nick Smith insist on Nelson being included? Maybe he should have, given that he brought this legislation into the House. What about Timaru, Invercargill, Westport, or Greymouth? None of those places will have mandatory notification in their newspapers, because the bill states \u201Cor if the Director-General is satisfied\u201D. Can the Minister get up and give an absolute guarantee that the provincial newspapers and the people in the provinces will have fair notice of her Draconian legislation to ban people from the conservation estate that they fund, that they have fought for, and that they uphold as being sacred in this country? The Minister is going to ban them from staying overnight on that land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWell, I have to say, this is what the legislation says, and if the Minister can get up and guarantee that notice will be given in all of the provincial papers, then maybe we have gone one step forward. But the legislation as stated here does not say that. Just as my colleague Stuart Nash said, there will be interesting legal battles over what is a short-term park, or a long-term park, or whatever, and the difference between what is perceived in provincial New Zealand and what is perceived in urban New Zealand. There is a huge void that is not covered by the legislation, and the Minister has not risen and attempted to answer that in any way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis is just one of the many, many flaws in legislation that is a sledgehammer attempting to crack a walnut. The Minister should just wind back and perhaps take on board the Supplementary Order Paper put up by my colleague Phil Twyford and say that we shall have a law around harming nature and harming the conservation estate, but we will not make a judgment on the input side of it, whether people are staying in a V-Dub\u2014as many used to in the old days\u2014a combi, a Bedford van, or nowadays a fully compliant and self-contained Mercedes van. Technology has moved on, and we have found better ways of mitigating the impact of all of our behaviour\u2014for example, reducing carbon and getting better at saving energy, and indeed in the area of camping we are better able to manage the potential effects of it. That is what we should be moving to do, to encourage people and to give fair warning by notice. We should not impose a penalty for something that is at the heart of the New Zealand way of life and something that many have fought for and expected to see for their lifetimes. Unfortunately, in this subpart 2 we now see potential behaviour by the Minister of Conservation and the department that through notice in the main newspapers of the main cities they will deem areas to be out of bounds for freedom camping. I think it is outrageous. The Minister should get up and explain why she is doing this, or change it and take on board the Supplementary Order Paper put up by my colleague Phil Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00221295ef81f9314441a38a1bf52bdef607\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221295ef81f9314441a38a1bf52bdef607\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up on a couple of points made by my colleagues. I think they were very, very well made. I turn to clause 16(1) in Part 2 of the Freedom Camping Bill to pick up the point that \u201CA freedom camping notice is published in accordance with this section if a summary of the notice\u2014(a) is published in the Gazette;\u201D. In all of my time as a tramper and a hunter, the very first thing we did before we did anything else\u2014before we examined the weather forecast and made a plan\u2014was read the Gazette, because we knew that the Gazette was the most important part of our information requirements for going on any trip. It is a very widely circulated document, and is avidly read by New Zealanders every day. I am surprised the Gazette is not in the newspaper awards as one of the most widely circulated documents! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ELet us face it: this publication, as far as the public is concerned, is published in secret. It is a secret publication. How many New Zealanders have ever read the Gazette? I ask how many parliamentarians have ever read the Gazette.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f4712460d44f4d8eb821c649bd2b0d\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a737932d4d3343468feefb349de0bdda\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister in the chair says she has read the Gazette. I want to ask her what was on page 2 of today\u2019s publication. I bet she cannot tell me. Let us be honest: most people look at it as a quaint document that no one has ever heard of. To publish in the Gazette is to have a decision of the old-fashioned Star Chamber. It is in secret. It is a closed society. No one will know about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ETo make sure that people have some notice of freedom camping restrictions, the writers of this legislation go on to say\u2014it is hilarious\u2014that the notice will be published in papers in the following areas: Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. Well, everybody knows that those papers go to all the camping areas of New Zealand! How much freedom camping is done in the city of Auckland? How much freedom camping is done in the city of Wellington? I would say it is next to zero. Not only will we have publication of documents in secret but we will have publication of documents that are completely irrelevant to the places where people go freedom camping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut it gets even better! I could not believe this. The third option put up by the drafters of this legislation said it would be \u201Cpublished if the director-general is satisfied that the notice is of local or regional interest only, in a newspaper or newspapers circulated throughout the locality.\u201D That means effectively that it will never ever be published. There is no place in New Zealand where freedom camping could be undertaken that is only and exclusively of interest to the people in that area. For example, if we are to have a publication about freedom camping on the West Coast, it would be impossible to argue that it was of interest only to people on the West Coast. The people of the West Coast live there. They have houses there. They will never go freedom camping there. Freedom camping on the West Coast would be of interest to people who live in Auckland. But because it is of interest to Auckland people, it cannot be published in the local paper, because it is of interest outside of the West Coast. By logic and definition the director-general cannot publish it in the local paper, because something that is to happen on the West Coast of the South Island is of interest to the whole of New Zealand. Because it is of interest to the whole of New Zealand, it is not of interest only to West Coasters; it is of interest to all New Zealanders. By definition, the man or the woman who is the director-general cannot publish it in the local paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESo what do we have as a notification? We have a notification processed by the Gazette, which is read by nobody. It is a publication in secret. We have a publication in newspapers that is completely irrelevant to the areas in which it is published, and then we have a clause that means it is impossible for the director-general to justify publishing it in a local paper, because it is not of interest only to those people in that area; it is of interest to people across the whole country. This is a nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe then get back to the other point made very well by Phil Twyford, that under clause 11A by-laws must not absolutely prohibit freedom camping. Well, there is an easy way to get around that. Councils can simply set a small part of a council district as a freedom camping area. It could be the council\u2019s backyard that has a big fence around it and is locked so that people cannot get into it. As long as it is designated as a freedom camping area, that justifies the council having the whole of its district wiped out from availability to freedom campers. The Minister shakes her head, but she has not thought of the inventiveness of local councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWhat we have now is a Freedom Camping Bill that means that a council, if it is hostile to freedom camping\u2014and some may be\u2014will designate an area that is hostile to freedom campers and say it is the freedom camping area. It effectively means that it then has a freedom camping area. It can be 0.5 percent of the area available, or it could be 0.1 percent, but as long as the council has one area available, it can say it has not absolutely prohibited freedom camping. There just has to be an exception to prove the rule. It does not have to be a certain percentage. Just one exception justifies the council saying it has not absolutely prohibited freedom camping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOn the other side, the council makes the decision, and who will be able to challenge the council? The council makes a decision to designate one minor, small, inconsequential, hostile area to freedom campers. The power rests with the council. A freedom camper can turn up, get a $200 fine, then go through the council\u2019s by-laws and say that they have done all the right things. They have gone back and read the Gazette, and they made sure they did that before they went. They have gone through all the back issues of the New Zealand Herald before they left to go to the South Island, and made sure they checked all the public notices to find out all the information they needed, but missed it somehow. They get themselves there and are then confronted with this. Will they take the council\u2014firstly, I presume\u2014to the District Court? If they fail there, can they go to the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court, thereby exercising all their legitimate options? Let us face it. Councils are litigious. If they lose, they will appeal. We will have a freedom camper with a $200 bill for camping trying to overturn the council\u2019s policy decision, and having to go all the way to the Supreme Court because the weight of bureaucratese will be with the council. There is no balance in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI find this extraordinary, coming from National, which pushes itself forward in the public as the party of freedom and the party of choice. National lauds itself as the party of freedom and the party of New Zealand, and of protecting New Zealand\u2019s heritage. What a load of bunkum. National has set up legislation that ensures that the information is held in secret: it is published in the Gazette or in a paper that is irrelevant to where freedom campers are. It is a notice that cannot be put in the local paper, because, as I said, it has to be of interest only to the people in that area to be published locally. If people outside the area are interested in it, it cannot be published locally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThen the bill says a council has to have only a small aspect of its council area available to freedom camping\u00A0to show that it has not absolutely banned freedom camping. It needs only one example to prove it. It could be beside the rubbish dump, it could be beside\u2014I do not know\u2014the sewage station, the sanitation plant, or the oxidisation ponds. Here we are: here is a place that freedom campers can have beside the oxidisation ponds. Because the council has designated that place, it has not banned freedom camping absolutely. It can find all sorts of hostile places, such as a mill that works 24 hours a day. A sawmill can go for 24 hours a day and be completely hostile to freedom campers, but as long as the council puts up a sign saying \u201CFreedom campers welcome\u201D, it has not absolutely banned freedom camping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis bill goes far too far. There is no balance, logic, or reason in it, and I think the process of consultation has been abysmal. This legislation is from a party that says it is there for individual freedoms and individual rights. What a load of rubbish. This shows the paradox in National. National members talk about being anti - nanny State, then they introduce nanny State policies. They talk about getting the Government out of people\u2019s lives, and then they put more government on people. They talk about having less bureaucracy, and what do we have? More bureaucracy. In fact, they are taking people\u2019s freedoms away by stealth, and by orders of that well-read paper, the Gazette. I cannot believe it. It is impossible to believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00228ecc32f1e7e2489ea71f3d5a50fa5b0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ecc32f1e7e2489ea71f3d5a50fa5b0e\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002241ce9e1354b5446d8841353c1cd79c7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000675\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a5943691d7e4f54a8b6e60bc3ddcffe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab826e0714d04bdca715656becececea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002210d114c658594c1c920fd607ece2104e\u0022\u003EPart 3  Enforcement, miscellaneous, and transitional provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb372e00f16b4caf9066374a94fed299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb372e00f16b4caf9066374a94fed299\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We now move to debate on clauses 18 to 48 and schedules 2 to 4. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7091015e0da48a79b6d574f8a2d12ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7091015e0da48a79b6d574f8a2d12ea\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am disappointed that members of parties that are voting for this Freedom Camping Bill are not taking calls in this debate. Not only are we in the situation yet again of this National Government taking away freedoms of New Zealanders under urgency but, even worse, the members on the Government side are not even game enough to get up and take a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022754a33e3d5054331bb3026c68dbffcbc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot say that word. I ask you to withdraw that word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b721e250436540b7bb675763397085cc\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I just think it is a shame that the Government members will not get up and take a call to explain themselves. The ACT Party members, who are the great defenders of our freedoms and liberties, have not even made a contribution in this debate, but they are quite content to vote for this nasty, odious, bureaucratic little bill that takes away the freedoms of New Zealanders to enjoy the great outdoors. I urge Hilary Calvert to get up and take a call, because, as we know, the ACT members are not whipped on these things. It does not matter that Rodney Hide has promised this bill to Local Government New Zealand. That member has the freedom to stand up and express her view, and I urge her to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think it is a shame that yet again the M\u0101ori Party is voting for a nasty, sordid little bill like this, and the best its members can do is put up a Supplementary Order Paper inserting a Treaty clause. It is exactly what we have seen time and time again. They will vote for a lousy little bill like this, and they will try to ameliorate the situation by proposing the insertion of a Treaty clause. Well, it is just not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to speak on our Supplementary Order Paper that deals with the question of the seizing and impounding of boats, caravans, motor vehicles, and other property. This illustrates just how pernicious this bill is. The provisions around clause 35 give extraordinary powers for the Department of Conservation and council officers to seize property that has been used in the committing of offences under this new regime. I submit that the powers are completely out of proportion to the offences that are being dealt with by this bill. They are Draconian, and I think there is a risk that they are so out of whack with the offences that this bill seeks to deal with that they could do serious damage to our tourism industry. If people come to this country from around the world to experience our country\u2019s most beautiful places and to do it in a spirit of freedom, and they find that their car or their property is impounded, seized, and forfeited under this bill, then that would send a very, very unfortunate signal to our international visitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will refer to the advice from the Legislation Advisory Committee, which raised some really serious concerns about the seizure powers. It raised two main concerns. It said: \u201CFirstly, the purpose of the seizure provisions in the bill is less than clear. Secondly, it is not clear that the objectives will necessarily be effectively achieved through the provisions as they are currently drafted.\u201D The Legislation Advisory Committee points out the reasoning behind the higher threshold that is given to the seizing of things like boats, caravans, and campervans. A series of tests have to be passed, and large items\u2014housetrucks, boats, caravans, cars\u2014can be seized only if an officer is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the seizure is necessary to avoid risk to the health of the public and the safety of the public, and so on and so forth. It sets up a two-tier test, which under this regime actually creates a perverse incentive for people to infringe in a housetruck but not in a tent. As Sir Geoffrey Palmer points out in this advice, that is illogical and inconsistent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247158e2e6a98405eb890ef28fc908acd\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: A housetruck\u2019s OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277596c3214cb490d87699db0244270ee\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It is much more difficult for property to be impounded if it is a boat or a housetruck. There is a much lower threshold and a much lower test that has to be passed if people choose to break this law in a tent. It does not make any sense, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat is more, the Legislation Advisory Committee says that clause 37, which deals with the return of seized property, is also problematic. In fact, the clause places the onus on the person who has had their property seized to establish that it will not be used for future offending. As the advice from the Legislation Advisory Committee makes clear, that may be difficult to do. Essentially, the likelihood of property being retained and disposed of means that this is a forfeiture regime. It is not about seizing and impounding property; it sets up a de facto forfeiture regime. This is one of the most Draconian aspects of the bill. It has no place in this bill. It is completely disproportionate to the scale of the offences we are talking about. I invite the Minister of Conservation to think again about the seizure and impounding provisions in this bill. It will bring this House into disrepute for this bill to be passed in its current form. I would like to hear from the Minister her response to the detailed and thoughtful submission made by Sir Geoffrey Palmer as the chair of the Legislation Advisory Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour has put two other Supplementary Order Papers on the Table for this debate. One addresses the issue whereby the offence is associated with a particular vehicle, and any subsequent fine can be levied against the owner of that vehicle. I note that the Minister has brought in a similar Supplementary Order Paper. In a way, I am glad to see it, because it makes sense that rental companies have the ability to pass on fines to offenders. Our concern is that that would be fine if this infringement regime was set up to target the dumping of waste and littering, but to harness it to an infringement regime that deals with freedom camping is completely over the top. And putting those two things together is the reason why we keep saying this bill is Draconian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe would support the amendment that allows the owners of these vehicles to have those fines passed on to them by the rental companies, but not if it is for a regime that includes penalising people for freedom camping. We would support it only for offences relating to the dumping of waste and littering. That is why we have also proposed an amendment to clause 18 that would remove the offence of freedom camping from this bill, and would leave simply the offence of littering and leaving waste. Creating the offence of freedom camping is the problem with this bill. That is the provision in this bill that will undoubtedly lead to innocent New Zealanders being criminalised simply because they are freedom camping in the way they have for generations and think they should be entitled to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is our argument that if this bill focused on the actual problem, which is the leaving of waste and litter, if other practical measures were implemented, as my colleagues Damien O\u2019Connor and Maryan Street have said, and if other infrastructure was put in place, such as bins and waste facilities in places where they are needed, then those practical measures would be enough to deal with most of the problem. I will leave it there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223459a8981a9b49df89d960630ee80449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223459a8981a9b49df89d960630ee80449\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 18(1A) of Part 3 I think actually gets to the heart of this very issue. I think it is a relevant issue, and it is what we should be focusing on. Clause 18(1A) of the Freedom Camping Bill says: \u201CEvery person commits an offence who discharges a substance in or on a local authority area or conservation land in circumstances where the discharge of the substance is likely to be noxious, dangerous, offensive, or objectionable to such an extent that it\u2014(a) has, or is likely to have, a significant adverse effect on the environment; or (b) has caused, or is likely to cause, significant concern to the community and users of the area or land.\u201D That is the heart of this bill. It is not about parking up a housebus or a caravan, or pitching a tent. That is not offensive. That is not a problem. The problem is the discharge of waste. That is what we should be focusing on. We should be pinging people who do that, rather than people who just pull up and camp, or sleep in a car or a tent, or whatever. That is not the problem. There is no harm or offence done there. We should be focusing solely on the discharge of waste. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAs Phil Twyford has touched on, clause 35, \u201CEnforcement officers may seize and impound certain property\u201D, talks about boats, cars, and things like that. They are not the problem. The boats, the caravans, and the housebuses are not the problem. It is what people do when they get out of such vehicles and go in the bush to relieve themselves\u2014that is the problem. When they empty the septic tank or sewage tank\u2014whatever they are called\u2014from the caravans, that is the problem. That is the behaviour that should be dealt with, not the fact that someone parks up overnight, or whatever. To have a provision to, in effect, seize somebody\u2019s M\u0101ui campervan or mobile home is outrageous. Let us take a company that rents out campervans or the vans that people stay in\u2014the self-contained vans. Why should they, the owners, have their property confiscated? I think it is way over the top; it is a way-over-the-top provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWho can do this? Who can do all the confiscating? It is an enforcement officer, and enforcement officers are appointed by local authorities. If I was camping somewhere out in the wilderness, someone could walk up to me and say \u201CI\u2019m an enforcement officer; here\u2019s my evidence.\u201D Under clause 32(1) \u201CAn enforcement officer must produce evidence of his or her appointment under this Act\u2026\u201D. What does that evidence look like? Are they wearing a uniform or a badge, or do they have a certificate? What do they have to produce to prove they are an enforcement officer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIf I was camping way up north in the bush with my cousins, if we were going hunting or something like that, I could imagine what my relations would say to a guy\u2014or a person, I should say\u2014who turned up, said they were an enforcement officer, and told us to move our four-wheel drive away from that area. I would say that person\u2019s safety would be in jeopardy. I mean, who up north will take it seriously if somebody bowls up, waves a piece of paper in their faces, and says it is evidence that they have been appointed by a local body to tell them to go away\u2014to tell them to move their vehicle? Especially if those people have been using that spot for generations to camp before heading off on whatever outdoor pursuit they want to do, and all of a sudden, as Rick Barker said earlier, there has been a move taken by a local authority, which has been gazetted and put in the New Zealand Herald, and which no one knows about it. Why would those people believe that this person had any sort of authority, at all? I do not understand how that piece of paper will make them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022e10b17288228453d83a5edd24fdf0a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e10b17288228453d83a5edd24fdf0a7f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There is much that we could debate about the Freedom Camping Bill, but I will focus on the proposed amendments in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 267. I go to new clause 28B, \u201CCharging hirer for infringement fee\u201D. This relates basically to the situation of foreign visitors, say a husband and wife from Finland, who have come here and hired a campervan. Their knowledge of English may not be great, but for some reason or another they have ended up camping in the wrong spot in their campervan. It does not matter whether they failed to do something; they just camped in the wrong spot. Then they have left and gone back home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe rental company then receives an infringement notice, because someone has driven past and seen the number plate. The \u201Cpoo police\u201D, whoever they are\u2014a person with the bit of paper\u2014has come along. They will not be respected in Northland, and they will not be respected on the West Coast, either. The \u201Cpoo police\u201D have come along, taken the registration number of the vehicle, and sent it to the rental car company. They see it is a M\u0101ui campervan or some other firm\u2019s campervan. I do not like to mention brands, and I am not in any way trying to imply that one brand is better than the other or worse. But, anyway, the rental company receives an infringement notice, so it sends a copy to the people. I will quote from the Supplementary Order Paper. This is the wisdom that comes from the department after the first version of the bill, when it recognised that there were mistakes but said it would improve the bill. Clause 28B(1) says \u201Cthe rental company may not exercise an authority under a rental service agreement to debit the hirer\u2019s credit card unless, within 5 working days of receipt of the infringement notice, the rental company\u2014(a) sends a copy of the infringement notice and the rental service agreement to the permanent address provided by the hirer in the rental service agreement;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EImagine this: the rental company receives a notice. The first point is that the company has to send a copy of it to the people from Finland. Is it to their email address or is it to their residential address? That is what the law says. The company is not allowed to do it for 5 days, and it has to send it through to the permanent address. I take it that that will mean sending a letter to the permanent address. I do not know how long it takes to get a letter from Wellington to Finland, or to some little town in Finland, but the company has to send it there after that. It is somewhat archaic not to have provision for email contact. The clause does not say so; it says the notice goes to the permanent address. Is it an email address or a residential address? Maybe the Minister can clarify that question. Subclause (1)(b) says the company then \u201Cnotifies the hirer that if the rental company receives a reminder notice for that offence, the rental company will debit the hirer\u2019s credit card\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESubclause (2) then says: \u201CIf the rental company does not receive an infringement notice for the particular offence, but receives a reminder notice for that offence, the rental company may not exercise the authority to debit the hirer\u2019s credit card\u201D. How do we get the money? If we put in place stupid legislation and stupid penalties that cannot be enforced, will people just carry on and go out of the country? Maybe they will be held up at the border because someone says to them: \u201CA notice has come up. You\u2019re not allowed to leave the country, because you camped somewhere and you haven\u2019t paid the fine.\u201D Will it go as far as that? This sounds like a wonderful recipe for Kiwi hospitality\u2014I think not! This is a ridiculous situation. Subclause (2)(a) says the rental company again \u201Csends a copy of the reminder notice and the rental service agreement to the permanent address\u201D. I do not want to go on and on and round and round in circles, but the whole thing is ridiculous. The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous, and this is a process to get $200 maximum, maybe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there is the ability to challenge an infringement notice, and the people from Finland may have a legitimate defence to say they did not understand English. Maybe the sign was knocked over\u2014who knows? This is 5, 10, 15, 20 days, or a month after they have left New Zealand, and we are chasing them around for a small fine, in the hope that it will be a big incentive to behave better when camping on conservation land. If people out there are getting somewhat confused, it is because the legislation is confusing, quite frankly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOnce again, I say we are taking a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. This is all because a campervan has parked in a place where there is a nice view, but some council has decided that it does not want people to park there overnight, regardless of the fact that they have a fully self-contained unit and they have been fully aware of, and compliant with, every other law in the land. But this bill says the council or councillors can decide that people cannot stay there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the people from Finland may not have been able to read the New Zealand Herald. They do not go online very often. They probably do not think the New Zealand Herald is worth reading very often. So they have not had early notice of, or consultation about, a particular area being out of bounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI say, in summary, that the signage in this country is generally not up to scratch. If people are trying to drive around and find a place to camp, then they will find, on an international comparison, that the signage is pathetic, I have to say. People get lost; they do not know where they are going. I doubt whether the signage needed for the measures in this legislation will be sufficient to allow someone from Finland or a foreign-speaking country to understand fully what is going on here. There are international signs, I guess. There is the skull and crossbones; that sign might be the one that aptly applies to this legislation. No doubt there might be a way to indicate that camping is banned, but the finer points of for how long or where people may camp, or of where they can go if they cannot park in one spot\u2014200 metres or whatever\u2014will make for a very confusing situation for people who come to this country expecting to be able to wander around in their fully contained campervan. It will be completely contrary to what they were told about New Zealand, and what they understood a holiday in this country would be like. Then, to top it off, they will have in the mail notices from New Zealand, demanding the Finnish equivalent of $200 or thereabouts for parking in a spot that they probably do not even remember. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill is just ridiculous. We should not support it. We should get on and do the wise things about improving knowledge of how to reduce our impact on the environment when we are camping, regardless of where it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9ddacf6b4ea4161be3636a5feeac96e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9ddacf6b4ea4161be3636a5feeac96e\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u00225363709571bd4e26aa75d2c108ef2e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225363709571bd4e26aa75d2c108ef2e1d\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairman. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. It is wonderful to take one of the last calls tonight on the Freedom Camping Bill, which is a Government bill coming before the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI have to ask: is this the most urgent thing this Committee could be addressing a few months before the election, a month before the Rugby World Cup, and just before we are about to go into urgency? I acknowledge there is a poo problem when one goes out across the countryside, and there is a legitimate freedom camping issue of waste being disposed of unwisely in our natural areas. But the fact is that if we were thinking of the actual, serious poo problem facing this country, we would be looking at the massive\u2014and I mean massive\u2014dairy effluent pollution that every day is going into our creeks, into our rivers, and into our streams, meaning that Kiwi kids cannot learn to swim in a Kiwi river, because we are not adopting smart farming solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI just have to point that out before I go on to addressing Part 3. There are more serious issues that this Committee should be discussing before we go into urgency, such as our kids and our grandkids being able to swim in our rivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI spent a few years freedom camping. I was a contractor for Greenpeace for a couple of years. I would work for 3 months and then I would freedom camp for a few months, getting to see our fantastic country. Like most tourists and Kiwis, I did it responsibly. I took care of the waste. I never left anything apart from footprints, and I took nothing but photographs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe Green Party does acknowledge that there is a serious issue. Our \u201Cclean, green\u201D brand is vital to our economy. It is vital to our sense of who we are as a people, and we do not want tourists\u2014or New Zealanders\u2014to turn up to a beautiful scenic spot and see waste there. This is a serious problem and, looking at Part 3 of the bill, I wonder whether the magnitude of this issue is dealt appropriately with by the fines. We have a pretty small fine; the financial penalty is only $200. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe main point I want to touch on is clause 18(1)(c) of Part 3, which states that any person who \u201Cmakes preparations to freedom camp in a local authority in breach of any prohibition or restriction\u201D commits an offence. We have heard other speakers ask how we will identify the appropriate person delegated to deal with this serious issue\u2014whether it will be with a badge, certificate, or sash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe big question is how this person will be able to identify whether a person is making preparations to freedom camp. What is the definition of \u201Cmake preparation to freedom camp\u201D? Is it getting out the thermos and having a cup of tea? Is it setting up a table with the thermos on it and having a cup of tea? Is it setting up a folding chair with the thermos, and being about to enjoy a cup of tea? How on earth will we define this? Are we simply going to put off these tourists who are important to our economy, coming to our country and enjoying our beautiful natural scenery? How will we define \u201Cmakes preparation to freedom camp in a local authority in breach of any prohibition or restriction\u201D? I invite the Minister of Conservation to take a call on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThere are a whole bunch of other questions that I have heard tonight, and it would be good to have them answered. We have heard a whole range of questions in this debate. The fact is that this bill has just been rammed through under too much haste. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI am really looking forward to the Rugby World Cup kicking off. As a Kiwi I am really excited about it, but unfortunately the tournament has brought out a bit of a bad streak in our national psyche. We have heard about Auckland sweeping the streets of homeless people, we have seen Adidas price-gouging Kiwis who want to wear the black jersey, and here we see the authorities and police\u2014who already have appropriate powers to deal with this serious issue\u2014being circumvented by this bill. We do not need to do it; they already have the powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhat the Green Party supports is a positive approach that looks at education, and providing more facilities and more legal camping-grounds. What we would love to see is more money going to the Department of Conservation to keep providing those great camping-grounds. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00221a009d74a0e94f379a16ccb7673ad5b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a009d74a0e94f379a16ccb7673ad5b9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The member Gareth Hughes made a very good point about freedom camping. He talked about Auckland sweeping the streets of all the people who sleep on the street. Well, surely they are the ultimate freedom campers. Does each of those people who sleep on the street realise that they will be subject to a $200 fine if they are making preparations for freedom camping? What does this mean for Blanket Man in Wellington? I do not think anybody has heard that this is an attack on Blanket Man\u2019s right to sleep on the streets of Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI want to come to another point. There are several points I want to make, and I start on clause 18(1)(c) of the Freedom Camping Bill. It states \u201Cmakes preparations to freedom camp in a local authority area\u201D, and there is a similar reference for a Department of Conservation area. What does \u201Cmakes preparations to freedom camp\u201D mean? Does it mean that the campervan has stopped, and someone has pulled on the handbrake? Surely that is a prerequisite to freedom camping. One cannot freedom camp without the vehicle being stopped and the handbrake pulled on, as we saw tragically at Lake Hayes. So if someone has pulled the handbrake on and stopped, are they making preparations? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOne would think that a person who did that would have a defence. But, no, National has made sure there is no defence, because if we go over to clause 19 of the bill, \u201CStrict liability offences\u201D, it states \u201CIn prosecuting an offence under section 18(1), the prosecution does not need to prove that the defendant\u2014(a) intentionally or recklessly committed the offence;\u201D. So there is no need to have proven intent. The person needs only to have stopped and encountered someone of mean spirit who has had a bad day and decides they need to do something, so issues an instant fine of $200 to that person because they have stopped. Is it an intention to camp if someone stops, like in those glossy adverts where people put a couple of chairs outside to have a cup of tea and enjoy the view? Is that an intention to camp? It is very hard to prove an intention. But it gets worse. I draw members\u2019 and the Minister\u2019s attention to new clause 18(1A)(b), which states \u201Chas caused, or is likely to cause, significant concern to the community and users of the area or land.\u201D A concern\u2014what is a concern? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816233fb4ebb085436e98bc72b278dce153000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ceb2f1c9a1b4fa98491d0e987e823e3\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d694e747d18448b9a213c771e9332fe4\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 17 August 2011)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022298cb31fde0c49f09ae52147a36b3c6e\u0022\u003EFreedom Camping Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a293a10e924c4126929d2b2138fc2741\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b19d8811aa174d768ab253a5a4d7457b\u0022\u003EPart 3  Enforcement, miscellaneous, and transitional provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c475c2fdf229497abd5ee6412df62fd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c475c2fdf229497abd5ee6412df62fd9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: When the Committee lifted last evening Rick Barker had the call. He has just over 2 minutes remaining, should he require it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2d79870f57c4937adab5abd7a9f3ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2d79870f57c4937adab5abd7a9f3ab9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I do wish to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af436eea13946e5ac8eb6c1028f271f\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Of course he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ca86c35ef04b94a6a72a610259323b\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to take up this point. I am sure the Minister of Justice will be really intrigued to know that the bill as it is written says that, in prosecuting an offence, the prosecution does not have to prove that the defendant intentionally or recklessly committed an offence. It does not have to prove anything. All it has to do is prove that there was an intention to camp. This means a campervan can pull up, pull on the handbrake, and stop, and the enforcement officer can say: \u201CWell, if you\u2019ve stopped, it means you\u2019re not mobile, and if you\u2019re not mobile, it means that you\u2019ve got an intention to camp.\u201D That is what it is\u2014one intends to camp, and they do not have to prove intent at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse\u2014it gets worse. We now have as an offence something that \u201Chas caused, or is likely to cause, significant concern to the community and users of the area or land.\u201D The word used is \u201Cconcern\u201D. There is no threshold or test for what this concern is. It does not have to be real. It can be simply imagined. A person says: \u201CI have a concern.\u201D, and they do not have to prove the basis of the concern. Of course, the person could go to court and say that they have remediated it\u2014that is what the provision is\u2014but how can one fix someone\u2019s concern? If the person has a concern, has an apprehension of concern, all they have to do is say to the court: \u201CI was concerned, and the person could not take my concern away.\u201D Bang\u2014a $200 fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBut it gets better. When I read through this bill that old movie Alice\u2019s Restaurant came back to me. We will have Officer Obie with his 27 eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs, with circles and arrows on and a paragraph on the back, and he will be asking questions of these freedom campers. This is what it is\u2014Officer Obie is coming back. This has been brought back to us by the National Government, and it is an assault on people\u2019s freedom to camp as they go around the place. Blanket Man in Wellington, a freedom camper, is under threat. We will have Officer Obie everywhere with eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs, with a paragraph on the back, and circles and arrows, and the prosecution of these people for intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4b583b02de64731b611e4c14509b16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4b583b02de64731b611e4c14509b16c\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c24c12259ecd4ce296b2061ea65c6bf9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000014\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 271 in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 18 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e8f2ed5937d47e6a83393b88efcda29\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000015\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 272 in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 26 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e89c3d5f32cc4253af452062bcb7680b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000016\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 273 in the name of Phil Twyford to clauses 35 to 39 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c75c4bc7fcb8473194403884dacd8b72\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000017\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229644b16a5ae246528859d4b9c021df56\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bc9f8a2adbe74e8780180798785a401e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234956aef61db40babe38620be00945a6\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000019\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000020\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000021\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022320250f441ff46e4906d8e3a90325a7e\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000023\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000024\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000025\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250771f1d7c384ca6bac1b4dcc6176cbb\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000027\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000028\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000029\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a586937cbfbd464dad0bf89d3168a032\u0022\u003ESchedule 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000031\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 267 in the name of the Hon Kate Wilkinson to schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000032\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000033\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c732cdfded9445c19b8fb8c85c1778e2\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe735f23bee6439fb5ce0fd37d51ffc7\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000036\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000037\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022588f286e7cfc4916988dcdb1cdef65d2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00226171a29063b14422b4254a736000e1f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226171a29063b14422b4254a736000e1f8\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Freedom Camping Bill be now read a third time. Freedom camping is a valued tradition in New Zealand, as we have heard, and this Government wants to ensure that it stays that way. It is unfortunate that we need this bill, but we do. We want freedom camping to continue, and for that to happen it needs to be managed before communities lose their patience. We are an outdoors destination, the land is the cornerstone of our identity, and we have always welcomed tourists who want to share in its grandeur. We want to retain our natural beauty, and not to see our most pristine spots degraded by human waste and rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill is about protecting our environment and our reputation. It allows local authorities and the Department of Conservation to better protect our most popular tourism destinations, so that everyone can enjoy them. The presumption is that people can camp unless a location is specifically restricted. Councils cannot issue blanket bans across their districts, as some have claimed. This bill is purposely pro-camping, as we recognise that the majority of freedom campers are responsible and take great care to clean up after themselves. But where freedom camping is causing very real issues, councils and the Department of Conservation now have the tools to act. The introduction of an instant fine is simple: if someone is caught camping where they are specifically prohibited from doing so, then they can be subject to a fine. At the moment if a prosecution is undertaken, it costs the ratepayer, or the taxpayer, over $10,000. It is far more efficient and effective to simply have the tool of an instant fine than to have the matter drag through the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe genesis of this bill is a case study undertaken in collaboration between private industry, local government, and central government. In December 2007 the Tourism Industry Association established a forum aimed at better management of vehicle-based freedom camping. It has become known as the New Zealand Responsible Camping Forum. Its members are made up of all the relevant industry bodies and Government agencies. The forum succeeded in achieving a unified stance on how best to manage freedom camping, with a mix of regulatory and non-regulatory tools. The members of the forum have, and will continue to develop and distribute, excellent communication and education materials, including print, news media, and standard signage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn its submission to the Local Government and Environment Committee, the Tourism Industry Association noted that all members of the forum agreed that some degree of enforcement is required to enhance their non-regulatory approaches in order to help campers to take responsibility for the care and guardianship of the environment and our communities. It pointed out that the forum has been under increasing pressure to help establish a nationally consistent enforcement regime that can be used to fine campers who deliberately camp in places or in ways that are not tolerable for communities. It was felt that this would act primarily as a deterrent, while providing a tool for land managers when deemed absolutely necessary. Used wisely, a nationally consistent enforcement regime will support the information-based approach and help to remove community tension that has grown from a sense of powerlessness when campers have ignored local advice and direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Local Government, the Minister for the Environment, and I in my role as the Minister of Conservation have worked together to respond to the needs identified by the forum, the wider community, our tourism sector, and the needs of our environment. This bill is a result of that collaboration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI again thank the select committee for its fine work to ensure that measures intended to address the worst excesses of freedom camping did not undermine freedom camping as a valued Kiwi tradition. As we have always said, this Government is committed to ensuring this tradition continues to be available to those who camp responsibly. We are committed to ensuring that local councils and the Department of Conservation are able to address problems where they have arisen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Tourism Industry Association stated: \u201CForum members have been unanimous in their belief that strong, clear and targeted camping information is the cornerstone for achieving responsible camping practices in New Zealand. The strongest long-term gains will come from developing a culture of environmental care underpinned by national and local visitor-friendly information\u201D. I agree with these views. The tools provided through this bill are additions to, not replacements for, the broad range of tools that are needed to encourage responsible freedom camping. My department and local authorities will use the enforcement tools only when there are real issues, and when these tools are the most appropriate and proportionate way of dealing with them. I encourage camping and I look forward to a future where communities, secure in the knowledge that freedom campers will camp responsibly, happily roll out the welcome mat. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00220021668603414599bbf4d96e7cf51713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220021668603414599bbf4d96e7cf51713\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Let me, for the record, state again that Labour acknowledges that we have a problem with the dumping of waste on the roadside in some of our country\u2019s most scenic areas. We acknowledge this is an issue that needs to be addressed, but we have come strongly to the view that the Freedom Camping Bill is ill-conceived, badly thought through, and bad law that must be opposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? It gives councils the power to declare large parts of their territory to be off-limits for freedom camping. It installs an enforcement and compliance regime for not only the dumping of waste and littering but also freedom camping itself. It is a joke that this Minister stands up and tries to portray this bill as some kind of Magna Carta for freedom campers. It is not. It is the opposite. It undermines freedom camping and it threatens the freedom that generations of New Zealanders have enjoyed, to get out in the countryside, to park on the side of the road, and to sleep a few hours before heading off for a weekend of fishing, surfing, pig hunting\u2014you name it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have two chief concerns. The first is that this bill is disproportionate. It is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, as Kevin Hague said in the first reading debate on this bill. As I said, it gives councils the power to declare large areas off-limits to freedom campers, and we have had considerable debate over the last few hours about whether that gives councils the power to effect blanket bans. The bill says no, it does not allow councils to effect blanket bans, but the reality is that they can declare large swathes of their territory off-limits for freedom campers. The Minister has failed to answer the question we put to her, and that is what percentage is acceptable or not acceptable? Is 98 percent of the territory off-limits to freedom campers a blanket ban or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAt the Local Government and Environment Committee we heard that a number of councils have, in the current system, actually set out to effect blanket bans. The Thames-Coromandel District Council through its own by-laws has effectively instituted a blanket ban. The Dunedin City Council came to the committee and gave us quite a detailed presentation. It too has effectively outlawed freedom camping in its territories. So the political will is there when councils decide, for whatever reason, that it is too much hassle, it is too much problem, and we do not want freedom campers in our territory. By giving councils such an efficient mechanism as is in this bill, councils will have much greater ability to prohibit freedom camping in their territories. The result is that this will affect many New Zealanders\u2014pig hunters, surfers, fishers, climbers, trampers\u2014who probably do not live in those areas and therefore are not ratepayers or local voters, but they are New Zealanders who currently have the right to go freedom camping and enjoy the country in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAre we demonising councils by suggesting that they will use the law in this way? I do not think we are. Who in this House has experience of councils using traffic laws for revenue generation? Do we have any examples of councils using bus lanes to generate revenue? Yes, we do. It is not inconceivable that councils, in an attempt to get cost recovery under this law, will go out there and have officials banging on the windows of campervans that are parked on the side of the road and pinging people with a $200 instant fine. So we believe that this law is disproportionate. We also are of the view that it is badly drafted, and this is not a complaint against the officials; it is a complaint against their political masters for the woolly, unfocused, and badly thought through policy that they have asked the officials to implement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EClause 11 talks about one of the criteria that a council would have to satisfy before it passed a by-law to ban freedom camping, and that would be to protect the area. What the heck does \u201Cprotect the area\u201D mean? It also says the local authority must be satisfied that the by-law would address a perceived problem in the area. Well, perceived by whom? Clause 11A states that by-laws must not absolutely prohibit freedom camping. This is the Alice-in-Wonderland clause. Just because it says the by-laws must not absolutely prohibit, it does not actually prevent them from banning freedom camping in 98 percent of that territory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EStuart Nash pointed out that clause 5(1)(a) defines freedom camping as sleeping out under some temporary structure, a caravan, or a campervan. But sleeping under the stars is perfectly acceptable under this bill. It is an absolute nonsense. Further on in the bill it makes it an offence to make preparations to camp and, as Rick Barker pointed out, what does that mean? Does it include pulling the handbrake up, getting one\u2019s jamies out of the suitcase, or putting on the burner to make a cup of tea? Is that \u201Cmaking a preparation to camp\u201D? So not only the campers of New Zealand but also the law enforcement officers of councils all over New Zealand will have a field day with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the most odious parts of this bill is the seizure and impoundment of property provisions. We have already discussed the advice from Sir Geoffrey Palmer as chair of the Legislation Advisory Committee. He told the Government and the select committee that the seizure and impoundment provisions were inconsistent, illogical, and would not achieve their stated aims, and that they provide a perverse incentive for people to commit an offence in a tent rather than a campervan. In fact, they are an assault on the property rights of New Zealanders because they place the onus on the persons who have had their property seized to prove or establish that the property will not be used in any ongoing offending. That is just one of the many defects in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAssociate Professor Kenneth Palmer made a really interesting submission to the select committee. He stated: \u201CI consider the message given by the legislation is one of punishment, which is likely to affect many international tourists, as well as local persons. The effect on international tourists may be to change the image of New Zealand as a freedom area, and to impose on visitors significant fines, and even the seizure of vehicles, which may not be justified on the merits of the situation.\u201D He pointed out that local authorities have been in breach of the duty imposed under the Litter Act to provide receptacles in public places. That is consistent with the case we have been making all the way along that practical measures like the provision of more public toilets and rubbish bins in these scenic, out-of-the-way places would be a much better response than this sledgehammer bill from the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EMy opening comment was that this bill is misnamed. It has about as much to do with freedom camping and preserving freedom as Ronald Reagan\u2019s \u201CClear Skies Bill\u201D did, when in the 1980s he gutted pollution controls on industrial polluters. This should be called the \u201CAnti-Freedom Camping Bill\u201D, \u201CNational\u2019s Nanny State Camping Bill\u201D, or \u201CThe Day National Killed the Kiwi Road Trip Bill\u201D. Those would all be much better titles. We live in a complex, highly regulated society, and it is important that as legislators we carefully consider the balance of rights and responsibilities, and the potential unintended consequences of laws that we pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is our case that this bill seriously undermines and curtails the freedoms that New Zealanders have enjoyed for generations to enjoy the great outdoors without having some council law enforcement officer knocking on the window of their campervan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30b4ef7a9244b94a9bec22d49d081a4\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: With their clipboard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022840cfaab18674ce2b41969c645b06499\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with their clipboard, at 2 o\u2019clock in the morning, telling them to move on, or slapping a $200 infringement notice on their windscreen. It is bad law, it should not be passed, and we think the Government is making a real mistake with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227b3bcea14315411da65ea2dfb5429bc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b3bcea14315411da65ea2dfb5429bc7\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I start with the underlying premise that the default position of the Freedom Camping Bill is that freedom camping on public land is allowed, subject to the legislation. I thank the Hon Rick Barker for his colourful contribution. I think he brought in allusions to Arlo Guthrie\u2019s \u201CAlice\u2019s Restaurant Massacree\u201D in a previous contribution. The Hon Damien O\u2019Connor made a number of contributions, some of them more considered than others, but I do not feel he, along with Mr Phil Twyford, understands the full problem that indiscriminate defecation in our areas of outstanding natural beauty is posing to local residents, local authorities, the Department of Conservation, and, of course, the unwary traveller. Who wants to step out of their van or off their motorcycle into a pile of steaming human waste or ordure? I do not mean to make light of this issue. It is a significant problem to a large number of communities around our beautiful country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e630187496e45349a4c8aac52511e0a\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Cam, you know you don\u2019t support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782370a4e30d4fb7b5c721e811d46377\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: I have, as Mr Twyford has signalled, many times driven through the night and parked at an appropriate spot, ready to get an early start on a tramp, hunting trip, or fishing trip, and I would expect to still be able to do that. This is basically a tool. It is a tool that we have given councils, which told us they were desperate. The Hon Maryan Street and the Hon Steve Chadwick admitted in their speeches yesterday that there is a huge problem here. They knew about the problem. The mayoral forum told them about the problem, but what did they do about the problem? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226791b63277724572b221c086b852213f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4061905e2f45f8b5891eec514af166\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. What did they do about the problem for many, many years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280107e2db7649409325ab9a370e92bf\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669043ab74e14e43991aa370291802c8\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. We are doing something to address a major concern to communities and local authorities the length of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI will close with a comment from Lawrence Yule, who is President of Local Government New Zealand, and who said: \u201CMany communities are sick of having to bear the wasteful cost of cleaning up the mess left behind by irresponsible freedom campers,\u201D. He said that although many communities did not have a freedom camper problem, the bill would be a country-wide tool, giving all councils the option to identify areas where camping should be prohibited and enforcement options available. This bill is a fine tool, giving the councils, local authorities, and the Department of Conservation the appropriate methods they need. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002204fd51578c064c48ab5bd60a66b4301e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204fd51578c064c48ab5bd60a66b4301e\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in the third reading of the Freedom Camping Bill. I was disappointed to miss the Committee stage, because it was clearly a lively debate, to which I had wished to contribute many remarks. It was very interesting to hear the Minister of Conservation refer in her remarks in her third reading speech to the consultation process that she says led to the construction of this bill. What a shame that that process did not involve trampers, hunters, and mountain bikers\u2014all of those who will be so terribly affected by this ridiculous bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EI will give eight main reasons\u2014I raised five fingers, but really there are another three\u2014why this is such a bad bill. The first of those reasons is that it penalises ordinary Kiwis for doing things that are an important part of our way of life. We have heard a lot about that so far in the debate in the House, at all stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe second point is that the things this bill penalises are already offences. They are already against the law, so what actually is it about this bill that will be more effective than all of the previous penalties and offences? There is absolutely nothing. The idea that in some way the bill will deal with this problem is based on an entirely fanciful notion. It will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that there are certainly some issues associated with a small minority of people who have campervans that do not have toilets, and who park overnight in a location where there are no suitable facilities for them. But in those exact same places there are day visitors who may also get caught short. It is the absence of facilities that is the problem, not the freedom camping activity. This bill does nothing to deal with that problem, either. The Rugby World Cup is coming along, and then there will be plenty of day visitors too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe fourth point I will make is one that I made strongly in the second reading debate, which is that it would have been so much better to use a non-regulatory approach to this issue, because regulatory approaches are appropriate in situations where people do not want to comply with a direction they know to be the best one. In this case, visitors to our country actually want to look after our environment. The correct approach is to make that easy for them to do, not to penalise them for not doing it. There would have been plenty of other ways to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe fifth reason is an important one, and I raised it in the second reading debate, hoping that it would achieve a little bit more media coverage than it did. There is a problem with this bill: it gives the impression of validity to existing territorial local authority provisions related to freedom camping. In fact, the bill does not add any greater legal status to those provisions. The Local Government and Environment Committee heard that those provisions already enacted by territorial local authorities, in very large number would be found by a court to be invalid, because the existing law requires that territorial local authorities pass by-laws about these matters only in those locations where there is a demonstrated problem, and only where the by-law is the best means available to deal with that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThat is not the approach that territorial local authorities have taken. We see territorial local authorities that have imposed blanket bans. The provision in this bill that says a territorial local authority may not impose a blanket ban is all well and good, but people should recognise that that is just for the sake of clarity. It does not change the requirement that there has to be an actual problem in a specific location, that a response has to be the best way of dealing with that problem, and that the response has to be proportional to the problem. What we have seen for the most part is responses that do not meet that formula, and that will fail in court as soon as they are challenged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe next point I come to is the impracticality of this legislation. Again, I was stupefied to hear from the Minister of Conservation today in this debate that this bill has emerged as a result of consultation with those who will be enforcing it, because I see this bill as one of the least enforceable I have seen, certainly in my time in Parliament, and in my time of observing Parliament over many years. This bill is impractical, and it will be found to be hard to enforce, or at least hard to enforce without giving the impression to all users of our back country and natural places\u2014Kiwis and visitors alike\u2014of pervading officiousness. I think that is the culture we are likely to see emerge as territorial local authorities and the Department of Conservation come to try to implement this ridiculous bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe seventh point I make is in response to one that the Minister of Conservation, Kate Wilkinson, and the Minister for the Environment, Nick Smith, made in response to my first reading speech, and that Nick Smith made again in his second reading speech, in which he appeared to be completely unable to distinguish between the effects of the extremely small, infinitesimal impact of this particular problem of freedom camping on freshwater quality in New Zealand, and the effect of dairying intensification on freshwater quality in New Zealand. Nick Smith, Minister for the Environment, seemed unable to distinguish which of these impacts was the larger. He seemed to say that they were comparable. I tell the House that they are not comparable. The impact, for example, of the planned extra 1 million dairy cows in the intensification planned for this country will be equivalent to an extra 14 million human beings, with all of the consequent environmental impacts on our fresh water, and without the treatment systems that exist for human beings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe eighth point I make\u2014and it is one I made in both the first and second readings, but I will reiterate it\u2014is about the impact this bill will have on our overseas visitors. This is a bill that this Government is rushing into place for the Rugby World Cup, but, for all of those overseas visitors coming to visit our country, instead of the welcome mat being rolled out, this Government is choosing to roll out a \u201CNot Welcome\u201D mat, a \u201CKeep Off the Grass\u201D sign in neon lights. It is entirely the wrong approach. This Government could instead have actually used the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme to recognise the fact that visitors to our country, and Kiwis using the back country, contribute very substantially, both to local economies and to our national economy. Therefore, it is reasonable for local economies through territorial local authorities, and for the national economy through the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, to fork out just a little bit to provide the extra facilities required in popular spots for freedom camping, and to use a little bit extra to provide education about where those places are. That is exactly the approach that Tourism New Zealand was following, and it is exactly the approach that this Government should have continued to follow, had it not lost its nerve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThis is a bad bill. It is bad from start to finish, and this House and this country will regret it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3669acc10434809b101da11c9dc614a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3669acc10434809b101da11c9dc614a\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part of New Zealand\u2019s heritage is at stake here. New Zealanders have always been able to go and participate in the outdoor environment and camp, as we have heard, get up in the morning, and go off and do some form of activity. That is now in jeopardy, because of the Freedom Camping Bill. What we should be doing is focusing on the people who are dumping effluent, and who are dumping waste and rubbish around camping areas. We should of focus on them, not on the act of parking up and resting overnight, or sitting in a car, or lying in a tent or caravan, waiting to do some sort of activity the next day. I have to say that Kevin Hague has covered the issues really, really well. They are well-thought-out and he is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOne of the main points I want to pick up on is the whole enforcement of this bill. If we take the Far North District Council, for example, we see that it is responsible for an area the size of Israel. It has four service centre towns and about 30 or 40 little villages and hamlets. The problem is that there are no facilities around those towns and hamlets to cater for freedom camping. We need to be looking at the facilities, but instead we are pinging people. We should be looking at the facilities. But in respect of enforcement, the Far North District Council will just not have the staff to cover that whole area, to cover the 30 or 40 towns and the four main service centres. It will not have the staff. It struggles with staff anyway just to do less controversial tasks, yet here we are expecting that somewhere in the middle of the night someone will go around popping up and knocking on the windows of caravans or cars, or calling out from outside a tent, to tell people to move on. That is just ridiculous. It will not happen. It is a nonsense to even include this measure in the bill. It will not happen in areas such as the far north. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ELast night we covered the issue of notification\u2014informing New Zealanders and overseas tourists about the areas where they can or cannot camp. We have heard that those areas will be published in the Gazette, which is a publication I have to admit I have never read. I have never read it, I have never seen it, and I would not know how or where to access it. As the Hon Rick Barker said, how on earth will people from overseas know where to access that publication and find out where they can or cannot park up for the night? Not only that, but those areas will be notified in the daily papers of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. I do not know in which edition and I do not know on which date the information will be published. But if it is published today, how will someone who turns up in New Zealand next week know where to find out where they can or cannot freedom camp? They will not know. It is not like it will be the headline on the front page of the New Zealand Herald or the Dominion Post; it will be tucked away somewhere in the back pages. No tourist is interested in looking through the \u201CFor Sale\u201D signs and the \u201CPlaces to Rent\u201D notices in order to find a little notification as to where they can or cannot park their caravans overnight. Those parts of the bill are silly. In fact, we say the whole bill is silly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe still do not know about the blanket bans. We see that the bill says that there are to be no blanket bans. Local authorities will not be able to put blanket bans on freedom camping, but that means that they may be able to exclude just a little area\u2014a car park or a couple of car parks in one little town\u2014and say that they have not put in place a blanket ban over the whole of the area. And they would be quite within their rights. So there is actually no definition of what size the blanket ban can be. Again we say that this is a nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe bill is jeopardising the way of life for New Zealanders. Freedom camping is something that we have been able to do since, as I said last night, my tupuna Kupe turned up on the shores of New Zealand. He was New Zealand\u2019s very first freedom camper, because when he turned up and parked his waka up on some beach, he did not actually stay there, build a permanent structure, and live there for the rest of his life; he circumnavigated the whole of the North Island, naming places around the whole of the North Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf879bd9697e4cc49dd3b983459d43d2\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Before there were some trains there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d03092ed4a4ec5a2a9cf8db710a69b\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! So he circumnavigated the whole of the North Island before heading back off to Hawaiki. It is something we have been able to do since humans first set foot in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI was just talking to my colleague Mita Ririnui about the absence of facilities and how his rugby club\u2014he says it is the best rugby club in the Bay of Plenty, the Rangataua Rugby and Sports Club\u2014is right on the shores of Rangataua Bay. He says that in the summer the club opens up its ablution blocks and facilities to allow people to camp on the sports field, which brings in income for the club. I think we need to do more of that all around New Zealand. There are numerous little sports clubs, little schools, and marae that could benefit from some extra income, if the facilities could be upgraded so they are of a reasonable standard for campers to use. There we go. There is a way forward to create the facilities for freedom campers to use and to enjoy. As Mita Ririnui was saying, at Rangataua Rugby and Sports Club they have been doing that for the last 40-odd years and people have returned year after year after year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ESo what we need to do is to encourage local government. If we had that subsidy scheme that the National Government canned, to help improve facilities, if there were joint ventures with sports clubs, maraes, and schools, we could have a whole network of excellent facilities all around New Zealand that freedom campers could use. They would not have to park in car-parks in Nelson, as I heard, and in other towns. We would have more facilities that could be looked after and used, and we would not have the problem of people just parking in lay-bys and places like that. There is a lot more that could have been done. This bill is not really very specific. It does not address the real issue, which is the dumping of effluent and rubbish. Instead of targeting people who actually break the law\u2014laws we already have\u2014it is actually making criminals of people who just need to park up before they head off to their recreational activities or move on to the next part of the country they want to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EFinally, I will finish off by talking about the effect on tourists and tourism. Free and independent travellers land in New Zealand, get into their campervans, and head off around the country. The last thing we want to happen to them when they get back to their country of origin is for them to get a bill in the mail for $200 because they unwittingly parked somewhere on the side of the road, and somebody took down the number of the vehicle. What sort of lasting impression of New Zealand will that be for them? We want those people to go back to their homeland and tell their friends and family what a great place New Zealand is, and then those friends and family will visit New Zealand on that recommendation. Visitors will not be recommending much if they have got a silly little fine of $200\u2014well, it is not actually very little\u2014when they get home. They will think what a miserable place New Zealand is. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022 data-id=\u002238a683f12125464991602b9c7ddbc517\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238a683f12125464991602b9c7ddbc517\u0022\u003EHILARY CALVERT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the Freedom Camping Bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff9b3bc293a342c288d96320dd14beb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff9b3bc293a342c288d96320dd14beb8\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the Freedom Camping Bill. Listening to the speakers on the other side of the House, one would think that we were talking about two different bills. The Freedom Camping Bill is all about keeping New Zealand clean and green so that all New Zealanders and visitors can enjoy our beautiful natural environment, and it amazes me that parties such as Labour and the Greens, which profess to want to improve our environmental standards and to give credibility to our \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D brand, will vote against it. That does not make any sense. They acknowledge that there is a problem, but they have spent all their time trying to find reasons that legislation will not work, rather than looking for a useful solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis bill responds to a serious environmental problem and pollution issue\u2014that of dirty and careless campers, who are despoiling our natural environment. Nobody wants that. Nobody will go home to their country and say what a beautiful, clean country New Zealand is if they have stepped into other people\u2019s waste. New Zealanders do not want a small number of irresponsible campers spoiling our right to enjoy our beautiful country or giving us a bad reputation internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIn debating this bill, the Local Government and Environment Committee found a practical, common-sense way to balance two great Kiwi traditions. The first is the right to go freedom camping, and the second is our wish to look after our natural environment. I believe that we have got that balance right. The bill, for the first time, enshrines the right of New Zealanders to go freedom camping as a default setting. New Zealanders can camp as of right on public land and Department of Conservation land, unless there is a good reason not to allow it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe restrictions are within limited geographical areas, which the Opposition seems to have forgotten all about or does not understand. In creating these by-laws, authorities need to prove that there is a real problem. This bill ensures that they can no longer impose blanket bans and it will give consistency across the country. The questions that the Opposition has been asking about the percentage are nonsense, because authorities can impose those by-laws within only very limited geographical areas, and the select committee tightened those up even more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt has long been illegal to camp in some specific areas and to deposit litter and human waste on the roadside, and for very good reason, but there has never been an effective or efficient way of enforcing the law. This bill provides for instant fines, which are a common-sense way to ensure responsible freedom camping, so that all of us\u2014New Zealanders and visitors alike\u2014can enjoy our beautiful natural environment. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022359c630bd33241f4967ed221a5254f9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359c630bd33241f4967ed221a5254f9f\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Freedom Camping Bill. As New Zealanders we are justly and rightly proud of the reputation New Zealand has as a clean, green country, but unfortunately some people take advantage of that reputation. New Zealand has a reputation of encouraging our citizens to see our country before they see the rest of the world, and also we are keen to let the rest of the world come here and see our beautiful country. Unfortunately, some people take advantage of that, and we have a problem with freedom campers who are unable to decide what to do with their litter and their waste. This bill sets out a very good way of dealing with that issue. It allows local authorities to pass by-laws not only to allow freedom camping but also to make sure that it is done within limits. I think that is a good idea. The M\u0101ori Party thinks this is a good bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae876e6a7fb349ce89a9cd11515bd53c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae876e6a7fb349ce89a9cd11515bd53c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is nice to speak towards the end of this debate on the Freedom Camping Bill; hopefully I will have the final word. The last speaker, Rahui Katene, said that there is a problem with freedom campers. No; there is a problem with effluent disposal and there is a problem with infrastructure. It is quite bizarre that in the year of the Rugby World Cup, when we are hoping to welcome tens of thousands of extra people to this country, we are rushing through Parliament legislation that will cut right across what we have told those people about New Zealand and their experience in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is quite outrageous that a Government that is prepared to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on stadiums up and down this country has not been prepared to spend any money on basic toilet infrastructure for the tens of thousands of people who come here. This Government cut the Sanitary Works Subsidy Scheme, in which central government assisted local government to put in place proper toilet facilities where necessary. This Government cut that scheme, spent hundreds of millions on stadiums, and has gone out marketing around the world saying: \u201CCome and enjoy New Zealand. Come and enjoy our Rugby World Cup. But if you park in that particular spot, you are likely to get a note after 5 days from the rental car company to your permanent address, in which case you can respond.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe point is that Supplementary Order Paper 267, brought in by the Minister of Conservation, is so complex and so bizarre\u2014it prescribes the way that the rental car companies can charge any fine\u2014that it makes a mockery of anything the National-ACT Government, supported by Peter Dunne, says about compliance costs, the nanny State, and regulation. This is the worst that I have seen in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have an issue. We have had an issue for quite a while. Actually, it is not just people who camp at night; it is people who want to go to the toilet during the day in their travels up and down New Zealand. But this bill does not say we will look at the outcomes and the adverse effects and try to address them. It says we will just say point-blank that people shall not camp in certain places. Discretion has been given to the councils, and we have had assurances that it will be only where the council identifies a problem. Well, the council might say that it gets a few rubbish bins that are filled up in a certain place and it costs a bit to clear them, so it will just declare that place \u201CNo Camping\u201D. It will save the council the cost of clearing the rubbish tins. That will be sufficient for a council to make a blanket ban. That is quite bizarre in a country that has prided itself on outdoor experiences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMr Assistant Speaker Roy, you know full well that with regard to these things, to quote Robin from Copperfields last night: \u201CWell, that is the fun of New Zealand.\u201D\u2014being able to go out, park up, and be responsible. Yes, we have an issue around education and around infrastructure. For the growing number of people who come to New Zealand and go out and have less understanding of effluent disposal, perhaps we need to educate them. But this bill attempts to educate New Zealanders by putting notices in the Gazette\u2014a very widely read newspaper, as colleague Mr Rick Barker said! Notices will also be put in key metropolitan newspapers. Those notices will educate the people of New Zealand as to where they cannot freedom camp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d16c618ae44a009419a0ef16ee170e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone reads them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c6403ecc6f44087bedb4feeb2c7d903\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know they do\u2014particularly those people out in the regions where, in fact, they have the camping spots next door to them! They will not have any idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis prescriptive, bizarre, Draconian, autocratic legislation will kill the image that New Zealand has around the world as a place of relaxation, of freedom, and of an experience that truly is unique. We have been marketing New Zealand for close to 100 years, I guess, and trying to encourage people to come here. This bill will cut right across people\u2019s expectations. The one thing that will destroy New Zealand\u2019s reputation is expectations that are not met or, worse still, when the reality is completely contrary to what people have been told. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHundreds and thousands of campervans have upgraded. They are modern and fully self-contained. Technology has meant that there is virtually no impact from them, particularly if they are able to dump at proper dump stations. What will those campervan companies say to their clients? Will they say: \u201CCome and hire our beautiful campervan, but actually it is not much better than a car because you\u2019re going to have to go to the main centres to camp or to a camping ground.\u201D? It is ridiculous, and it cuts across all our efforts for many, many years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have to finish by saying that it is worse than nanny State. It is legislation that is supported and developed as a knee-jerk reaction from a senior Minister in Cabinet, Nick Smith. I have to say I am rather sad that the Hon Peter Dunne has supported this, because he has championed the rights of outdoor users, of fishermen, and of trampers for many years. He knows that these people are very offended by this legislation, and he should be opposing it. I hope he will, because his constituency, the people he has fought for, will be absolutely gutted when they get a letter in the mail or are told: \u201CMove on, sonny. You are not allowed to camp here. Move on down the road.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThese people know the outdoors. They know what to do. They probably have a shovel in their car. They probably know where to go to go to the toilet. But no, the \u201Cpoo police\u201D will be knocking on the door of their tent or their campervan and saying: \u201CNot allowed to camp here, sorry. There\u2019ll be a fine in the mail\u2014an instant fine.\u201D That is bizarre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis is a country of 4 million people, and it is the size of the UK. How will people from the UK comprehend the Draconian, the autocratic, and the nanny State legislation we are just about to pass in this House? I think it is a serious backward step. There are better ways of dealing with this problem and making New Zealand a welcoming place for visitors, and for the tens of thousands of people who will come here for the Rugby World Cup. We have rushed through this legislation, and I think it is quite bizarre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224e7fddf602d34443acd5253b2e966160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e7fddf602d34443acd5253b2e966160\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to be able to speak in the third reading of the Freedom Camping Bill and to answer some of the issues or the misinformation that has been spread by members on the other side of the House. It is great to be able to get the record straight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe Freedom Camping Bill is a very practical bill. It solves a practical problem that affects not only visitors to this country but, more important, local residents of places that are popular for overseas guests to camp. One of the things the Opposition members have not really got their head around is the shift of the presumption of where people can camp and where they cannot. I would suggest that one of the reasons the councils currently have by-laws that put blanket bans in place is that they have not had any practical tools to deal with the problems. That is exactly what this bill delivers. So the first point is to say that this bill changes the presumption, to say that people can freedom camp anywhere unless there is a local council by-law that says otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI know it is not normal in the third reading, but I want to bring the House\u2019s attention to clause 11(2)(a), which states the reasons under which a council can make a by-law. They are \u201C(i) to protect the area: (ii) to protect the health and safety of people who may visit the area: (iii) to protect access to the area;\u201D. But the key phrase, in clause 11(2)(b), is\u2014and the Local Government and Environment Committee did a significant amount of work to get this wording right, so I do want to thank the officials both from the Department of Internal Affairs and the Department of Conservation\u2014that \u201Cthe by-law is the most appropriate and proportionate way of addressing the perceived problem in relation to that area;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThat provision means that an authority cannot pass a blanket by-law. This is an example of one of the concerns the Federated Mountain Clubs raised with us. So for those who are interested in hunting, fishing, and tramping we answered their concern by saying the presumption that they can camp is stronger\u2014this allows them to camp. We also redefined \u201Cfreedom camp\u201D so that it does not apply to someone who has been travelling overnight and sleeps and rests in their vehicle to keep their driving safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBut the main point I want to make is that this is about protecting the right of New Zealand families to camp. I want to give a personal example. I was raised camping by the lakes, by the rivers, and by the beaches. I remember times with my son when staying in a camping ground was not affordable for me at that time. So we would pack up the borrowed tent, jump in the car, and drive to a place that was yet undiscovered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill protects the right of New Zealanders to have those kinds of adventures in this country, because it will stop the blanket by-laws. It is all about giving councils the tools so they will not have to put blanket bans in place like they have to today. They can give people an instant fine; this bill gives councils a tool. This makes it consistent for the local council and the Department of Conservation, and that is why this bill is a nice, practical bill that protects New Zealanders\u2019 long-fought-for ability to camp in the great outdoors. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe11d3e5f6a49c8b5c2eab1ed23a011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe11d3e5f6a49c8b5c2eab1ed23a011\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in this final stage, the third reading of the Freedom Camping Bill\u2014a completely inappropriately named bill, sadly. I want to acknowledge the work of the Local Government and Environment Committee, and I agree with the member who has just resumed her seat, Louise Upston, and her point. The select committee did work very hard together to try to resolve the concerns we had about the bill. Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, that was not successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EEverybody on the select committee, and I am sure everyone in this House, agrees that there is a problem when people litter and pollute our beautiful environment. The old National, the traditional National, would have said in the past \u201CThere is a problem. What\u2019s a practical, common-sense way of fixing it?\u201D. In fact, the Hon Peter Dunne may, in the past, have been inclined towards that approach as well. But instead we hear National saying \u201CWe have a problem, and, oops, we have the Rugby World Cup coming. Let\u2019s bring in Draconian legislation that gives local authorities and the Department of Conservation huge powers that really undermine the whole image we want to portray internationally at any time, but particularly leading into the Rugby World Cup.\u201D So this is exactly the wrong time to be using this sledgehammer to resolve the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWe could have phased out the sort of campervans that cause the problem. We could have reinstated Government financial support for local authorities to install more toilet facilities where there are problems around the country. Instead, we have this huge power being given to local authorities so that they can say that massive parts of their district are not allowed to be used for freedom camping and very significant fines\u2014not just for littering, but for dumping of waste and actually for freedom camping itself\u2014can be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIt is to my regret that despite the best of efforts across all four parties represented on the select committee, we were not able to get a resolution to this problem. We are now giving the wrong message from our Parliament about how we would like visitors to come to our country and enjoy and cherish our beautiful outdoors. Supplementary Order Papers 271, 272, and 273 proposed by Phil Twyford would have done that, but unfortunately National has maintained a very rigorous approach to Supplementary Order Papers from Labour and has just said \u201CIt is Labour; we will vote against it.\u201D I think that was foolish, particularly when we were looking at legislation where we agreed there was a problem and when we tried very hard at the select committee to get a good resolution. The officials worked extremely hard, and I know they understood the tensions that arose between our desire to send a strong message about wanting our clean environment to remain so, and our desire to not punish, or even give the wrong message to, people who have enjoyed freedom camping as part of our New Zealand culture. That is what we are doing with this legislation, and I regret that we are progressing in this manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002215b7b9f13175458783a9e0f6da1db2a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Freedom Camping Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a9c17e8f0d34d02831d6306426c605a\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc466a0741e041f8aed2cb0d856bdbd7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002247da1ecd81114a6f9062d2d1b01a4ba8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247da1ecd81114a6f9062d2d1b01a4ba8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Student Loan Scheme Bill be now read a second time. This bill represents a significant shift in the way the student loan scheme is administered, with the aim of making it easier for borrowers to manage their loans and to pay back what they owe when they should. Currently, complying with this scheme is complex, and its administration has its own complexities as well. Borrowers have to deal with different administrations at different stages of their loan, which can result in confusion for borrowers about their immediate repayment obligations and their overall loan balance. The repayment system is also heavily dependent upon inflexible, paper-based communication systems, which make it difficult for the Inland Revenue Department to communicate with borrowers who move address frequently, or who go overseas. Further, the process of annual assessments for determining borrowers\u2019 loan repayments results in complicated annual interaction with borrowers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis bill introduces a suite of measures to deal with these problems, and to help the Government better manage this $11.1 billion Crown asset. To recap briefly, the first of these measures sets the framework for consolidated loan information to be provided electronically to borrowers by the Inland Revenue Department. That will enable borrowers to access information on their loan balance and to manage their repayment responsibilities from anywhere in the world at any time. It also means that borrowers who are currently studying will no longer have to contact two agencies for this information, as they do now. The overwhelming majority of borrowers will also benefit from the removal of the current annual end-of-year assessment if their income is from salary and wages only, and if their before-tax income is over the pay period repayment threshold. The Inland Revenue Department will instead treat loan repayment deductions from a borrower\u2019s salary or wages as being correct and final for the pay period, although borrowers will be able to get a refund if they have significantly overpaid their pay-period obligation. The result will be a student loan system that is simpler, easier for borrowers to understand and to comply with, and more cost-effective for the Inland Revenue Department to administer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill introduces changes to simplify the current penalty rules that apply when borrowers fail to make their loan repayments when they should. These include measures to help prevent penalties for non-payment or underpayment from reaching levels at which borrowers perceive them as an insurmountable barrier to paying off their debt. At the same time, of course, the bill recognises the importance of borrowers honouring their debt. Consequently, a Supplementary Order Paper to the bill serves to strengthen the Commissioner of Inland Revenue\u2019s ability to recall a loan in cases of serious non-compliance. These are the main features of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the work of the Finance and Expenditure Committee when it considered the bill, and I recall for the House the fact that while the bill was before that committee, the Inland Revenue Department identified some measures where the original application dates needed to be delayed until 1 April 2013 to allow more time to implement changes in the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s existing systems. The measures that are affected by this are the new interest and penalty rules that I have just mentioned, certain payment priority changes, and changes that will move the system away from the tax system\u2019s period-based debt approach to a whole-of-debt approach, which is more akin to a mortgage. Although the application dates of some parts of the bill will be delayed, the application dates for the proposed changes that benefit borrowers, such as the provision of a consolidated view of their loans, will remain unchanged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs I say, I acknowledge the work of the committee in its careful consideration of the proposed reforms, and for the flexible approach it has taken to allow amendments to be made in order to help the Inland Revenue Department to implement the necessary changes the bill introduces. The result will be a simpler, more effective way for borrowers to self-manage their loan responsibilities, and a more efficient, cost-effective framework for the Inland Revenue Department to manage its interactions with all borrowers in New Zealand and overseas. Therefore, it is with great pleasure that I once more commend this bill to the attention of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022855ccf3dc93c46e883ee1712a2af12ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022855ccf3dc93c46e883ee1712a2af12ce\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party will be supporting the Student Loan Scheme Bill, although we are opposed to one element of it, which I will get to as I go through my remarks. As this bill went through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I think that it generated a degree of debate\u2014not hostile debate but debate in terms of how we can make our student loan mechanism work much more effectively. As the Minister of Revenue just said, making this system less paper-driven and streamlined in terms of the agencies that students go to\u2014bringing those down from two to one\u2014and certainly making it easier for students to be able to repay their loans, particularly those students who have gone overseas, is all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe average student loan at the moment is nearly $7,000 per student, and about 587,000 students have loans. As Minister Dunne just said, about $11 billion in total is designated\u2014curiously\u2014as a Crown asset. I suppose in many ways it is an asset. These people are going through tertiary education, which is a right that we are pleased about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b516f8cbc29b4fa8b84de03b101e322e\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: The debt is an asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222142d827d0c741d9b73c0d8e45077905\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was looking at the word \u201Casset\u201D, and using the word in terms of what we have, and in terms of investing in our future. That is very important in terms of what New Zealand has been able to do throughout the history of tertiary education, which is basically to provide easy access for students to be able to get to university and have that right of a good tertiary education. It is a very high-quality tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut $2.3 billion of that money is money that is currently with students overseas. So this bill, which streamlines our ability to be able to help those students overseas to repay their loans, is to be welcomed. Treasury estimates that by 2014 something like $22 million will be recoverable through the changes that have occurred as a result of this bill, and $22 million is significant. Obviously the sum will accumulate over time as we get the basis of a new system, a more streamlined and electronic system, in place, and one that can be built on and encouraged further, after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThis is where we come to the issue that the Labour Party is not in support of. The particular aspect is the charging of a fee to students in order to be able to put this system into place. I think that at the moment students are, in many ways, already heavily burdened with student loans. As we are actually making close to $22 million off the back of the savings that will occur, putting a yet further burden on to students of the administration fee in this bill is, we believe, over the top. Although we are supportive of the bill itself, we are not supportive of the proposal in this bill to add an administrative fee for students to enable this system to come into play. The State will take $22 million, which will increase over time, so that fee, I believe, is unnecessary. It is a fee of only $40 per student; nevertheless it is a fee that will hit students who are perhaps in a position where they are already financially stretched, and, ironically, it will add to the cost of the loan for people who are already struggling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhile I am on this topic, I will address the broader aspect of what is actually happening to student loans. An extraordinarily important subject for the country is the amount of money that we commit through student loans, and the commitment we make as a country to tertiary education. Yet some areas of student loans, such as that of people trying to get a student loan, have been disadvantaged as a result of the last Budget. I am referring to those students who are over the age of 55, and who are effectively being shut out of obtaining a student loan. That says a couple of things to me. First of all, it says that people over 55 have really no value in our education system, because they are too old. We know that 55 is the very age at which many older workers look to retrain, upskill, and move on to other things. We know, inevitably, that people will be working longer as they continue their working lives, and that they will want and need to upskill and retrain as a result of that. It seems highly discriminatory to penalise those people over the age of 55, rather than to support them to go into tertiary education, to be able to change to a different pathway, and to upskill their qualifications so that they can take part in the workforce and be more productive. Overall, our labour productivity is one of the lowest in the world, and we want to try to see that we provide every encouragement for workers to be able to move into more productive employment. This bill discriminates against those people over 55.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe second point I will raise with regard to this legislation is that the over-55s have generally been paying taxes all of their lives, but, as a result of this bill, when those people get to 55 the Government will say \u201CYes, if you\u2019re 18 you can get a student loan and the State will support you, but when you get to be over 55, despite the fact that you\u2019ve been contributing to society in most cases, you have been excluded.\u201D I think that is grossly unfair. This access to the student loan should be universal; it should not be discriminatory. It should be allowed to continue for those over 55, regardless of the fact that, according to the Minister for Tertiary Education, these people are considered high risk in terms of the degree to which they pay back their loans. Despite the fact that I have asked the Minister specific questions about the over-55s\u2014in what courses and in what areas have they not been paying back their loans\u2014I have not been able to get that information. It seems that this policy is somewhat like shooting from the hip and is not really thought through, but is nevertheless a policy that is targeting and discriminating against those older members of our society who genuinely want to go back, retrain, relearn, and upskill. That is exactly what we are trying to provide, certainly on this side of the House, through our education policy, but in fact it is not the case, at all, with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI just come back to the bill itself. As I said, the Labour Party will support this legislation because it streamlines the ability to collect those loans that are outstanding. It provides a better interface for students who have perhaps gone overseas, because we can communicate through electronic media. That will replace much of the paper-type aspects that have been the hallmark of the student loan system up till now. It will recoup\u2014according to Treasury figures, anyway\u2014$22 million by 2014. In the next 3 years that amount of money will easily pay for what has been put in place in terms of the changes in this legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f13fc9acf4af4f8cb0edf12ac959507b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f13fc9acf4af4f8cb0edf12ac959507b\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to take just a quick call on the second reading of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. People who are listening at home and who heard the last speaker, David Shearer, might think that the scope of this bill is considerably wider than it is. In fact, it is a reasonably straightforward bill that enjoys wide support. As the Minister of Revenue has said very well, in his opening contribution, the bill really is about making this part of the tax system simpler, easier to understand, and easier for taxpayers to comply with their student loan obligations, and about making sure we have a tax system that works in the best interests of the stakeholders who use it. This has been an ongoing work programme for the Minister, and I commend him for that work across the tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis bill represents the student loan scheme parts of the tax system. If I remember back\u2014many, many years it seems now\u2014when I had a student loan, I can certainly attest that one of the most frustrating parts of the process was not being able to get any sort of sense from the Inland Revenue Department about what the loan balance was. It was all compartmentalised into different years, and one would be in credit in this year and would have a debit from last year, and one could not set the debit off against the credit. It seemed to me, even then, that it was nonsensical and I wondered why we could not run these systems in more of a simple bank-loan way where one had a consolidated real-time balance that one could access easily and contribute to easily. Finally, under the National-led Government, and under Minister Dunne, we are moving to a system where that sort of common-sense, easy-to-use process will come into being. I think student loan borrowers, for many years to come, will be very grateful that we have that sort of certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI want to touch on two other matters very briefly. The first is around the pay-period certainty we are providing, where the majority of student loan borrowers who are on PAYE for salary and wage payments can have some certainty that when they make their weekly, fortnightly, or monthly contributions, that is the sum total of their obligation. Each pay period, if they pay the required amount, then they can be certain that their obligations are met, and they will not face the risk of getting a bill at the end of the year for some changes in accounting during the year. They will not suddenly find that a bill arrives on their doorstep. As long as each pay period the right figure is paid, then they can relax in the certainty that their obligations are met. Again, that is the sort of peace-of-mind, easy compliance that we certainly want to support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe final point is around the changes to the penalty rates and, as Minister Dunne noted, this is one of the areas where the Finance and Expenditure Committee heard and accepted the fact that the dates will need to be pushed back while there is some work done in the Inland Revenue Department to get its systems in place. But it is a good system we are moving to, where we are changing from, effectively, penalty rates of up to 20 percent per annum on unpaid student loan contributions to rates that are effectively going to be closer to around 10 percent per annum and, in fact, as low as 8 percent per annum if non-compliant borrowers enter into instalment arrangements with the department. So I think we are certainly getting into a much more usable and supportable penalty regime that will not see these debts spiralling out of all control, but still, of course, have that incentive for the borrowers to repay the debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis is excellent legislation. It is the sort of making-it-easier-to-comply legislation we need to support in this House, and I am very happy to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221385c392b41447d8915ec02327b18505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221385c392b41447d8915ec02327b18505\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague David Shearer has indicated, Labour is supporting the Student Loan Scheme Bill through Parliament, with a number of important caveats. I first acknowledge the reason why, in broad principle, we are supporting this bill. Obviously student loan issues is important to address. Anything that helps rein in some of the costs that have occurred in respect of some of the non-repayment issues is important to grapple with. A lot of these issues centre on those who graduate and go overseas. They make up a fairly big percentage of those who are not repaying loans, and we need to try to bring them into the fold. Treasury has stated that this will bring in around $22 million a year, and that is important for the revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI note a couple of things. One is the change to late-payment penalties, which were nudging towards 20 percent under current arrangements. In some respects, that is almost at loan shark rates\u2014an issue the Government is finally moving on, after Carol Beaumont\u2019s excellent bill last year was rejected by the Government, which left many people to pay usurious rates that were inappropriate. Now we are starting to see some action on that issue from the Government. Similarly, we have the Government proposing that the interest rate that students pay on late payments should drop back to about half the rate it was, down to 10.6 percent or even 8.6 percent, if they enter into instalment arrangements. Obviously those repayments will be much easier with the electronic processing that is at the heart of this bill. So that is a step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI want to speak particularly, though, on the issue of excluding over-55-year-olds from student loan access. I speak on this issue with some real connection to it, as somebody of that particular age. I say to this House that the concept that people will not be able to retrain with some assistance from the State\u2014some hand up\u2014is a nonsense when we consider that in this Parliament we have people in their 60s and even 70s still doing extraordinary, dedicated jobs, still working extraordinary hours and output rates, and showing that people into their 70s are well able to contribute. In fact, the whole pattern of commentary emerging is that we need to work longer if we want to have secure retirements. We are hearing that from people like the Retirement Commissioner and others, yet here we have a bill that tells anybody that once they get past the magic age of 55\u2014and a magic age it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223facd3f337f4483aa4946ff9ea119d0e\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Refer to the clause that says that, Brendon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222563951185f14954b8acc10faacf6e70\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The situation is that over-55-year-olds are excluded from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00f66c6469d414d8f48dc027747c04b\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06a1f65118a45cdb3469b79738df237\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know what the member is going to say. The member is going to ask that the member come to what is in the bill. I ask that we just try to bring things together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022564fa1adbae749fc9ed980d0bea4e23b\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I will move to other commentary on the bill, such as student loan eligibility restrictions. I note the commentary from Te Puni K\u014Dkiri about the new restrictions, stating that this is \u201Cat odds with the declared intent of the Tertiary Education Strategy to encourage more Maori and Pasifika students into tertiary education.\u201D I ask members opposite what particular part might it have been commenting on. I also note the Ministry of Pacific Island Affairs\u2019 statement that the \u201Cpackage may result in Pasifika students dropping out of university and going onto the unemployment benefit or shifting to cheaper avenues of study.\u201D What we want to see is people encouraged to take up tertiary study so they can progress from career to career, because the reality of life is, as some members opposite can testify from their own CVs, we can take part in three, four, or more careers. In that sort of environment, we need the capacity to train, retrain, and get a helping hand from the State to assist us through that part of life, and it should not end at a particular point in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis bill is, of course, replacing the Student Loan Scheme Act of 1992. We are looking at facts that state that the loan balance is currently standing on the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s books at around $11 billion, and we have nearly 600,000 people in receipt of student loans. I was interested to see in the Finance and Expenditure Committee the average amount borrowed. We have pictures in our minds, I think, of students borrowing tens and tens of thousands of dollars and not repaying them. In fact, that is not the case, as we heard from the Inland Revenue Department. The average amount borrowed is actually under $7,000 per student, and the repayment time for those who left tertiary study in 2006 was around 4.6 years. So the time frames and the amounts borrowed are quite modest, but cumulatively we are talking very serious amounts\u2014currently around $11 billion and projected to go to about $15 billion in the next 4 or 5 years. Obviously, that issue is at the heart of this bill: the need to allow former students with student loans, many of them overseas, to tap into payment systems electronically and pay back their debts at a time when often they are earning good money overseas. That is at the heart of the bill, and that is why Labour is broadly supporting the passage of this bill through Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5f1f5c92ac348d19559b27a6668108e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5f1f5c92ac348d19559b27a6668108e\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. It is great to take a call on the Student Loan Scheme Bill\u2014a Government bill going through under urgency. I think student loan issues are urgent, and we should be dealing with them, but a bill of this nature, which essentially is tinkering around the edges, is not the type of thing we should be addressing under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the student loan burden across the country, we are looking at an amount in excess of $11 billion on the shoulders of more than 560,000 Kiwis. This is an urgent crisis, and this bill does not address it. My big fear is that this bill will prolong the student loan debt burden on those hundreds of thousands of Kiwis for months and years, with only minuscule benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EStudent loans, since they were first introduced in 1992, have been a massive experiment with our tertiary education sector graduates. A massive $11 billion is currently outstanding, and this loan debt is growing at $1 billion a year\u2014a fantastically huge sum at a time when the Government is borrowing such considerable amounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe curious nature of student loans is that, in fact, they are down on the Government books as an asset. If we look at the Government books, which are not in great shape at the moment, we wonder what the consequences would be if we took this asset and did something else with it. What it is, of course, is a massive drag on our economy, students, and society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI acknowledge and thank the submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I thank the officials and the chair of the select committee. We did not hear a huge number of submissions on this bill, because ultimately this bill is pretty small-scale in its intent. Essentially, this bill tightens up rules relating to overseas graduates with loans, adds administration fees, and, most critically, brings in electronic management of student loans. I cannot believe that in 2011 we are getting around to electronic management of loans. It is amazing that in 2011 we are finally getting to this. It could have been done a long, long time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0ffe1f831747d4a78023c84394874a\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Under the Labour Government\u2014yes, that\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2ca15d68a149b78c6a464bdf31ea53\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The member is correct. A good question to ask Labour members is why this was not progressed sooner in the 9 years Labour was in Government. It makes common sense. Graduates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b7fe0a0f4c425ebb5e3b008e56b257\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member on my left and the member on my right that interjections are permitted only when they are directed at the person who is addressing the House. Interjections between each other, with members having their own private debate, are not in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5c6d096c7a46df8f20cfbc7e16ff28\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: It is a good example of how students have been failed by both Governments of different hues. The fact is that it is good we are finally getting around to electronic management of student loans. It is amazing that we have waited until 2011, given that the internet has been around for such a long time, is such a key tool, and will increase the cost-effectiveness and efficiencies of student loan administration by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe oppose some parts of the bill and support other parts of the bill. We support the intent of the legislation, which is to increase the effectiveness, reduce administration costs, and, in particular, introduce electronic management, but we are opposed to the imposition of additional fees on students. These are Kiwis in New Zealand. Some of the poorest Kiwis are on student loans; they are effectively beneficiaries. These people are the least able to handle additional fee costs being imposed on them, especially in this current economic environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThis bill brings in a $60 student loan establishment fee, and an annual $40 student loan administration fee. These are substantial figures for people. It might not seem like much to members in this Chamber, who have just received a 5 percent tax cut\u2014a tax cut for the rich, as it has been called in the public arena. Yet we see this Government putting additional burdens on some of the poorest New Zealanders, who are facing rises in GST, petrol, and other costs of living. We think this bill is bad in that respect. It would have been good to get rid of this part in the select committee. Ultimately, we heard from officials that the Inland Revenue Department is investing in updated computer software and infrastructure. So there is no need for additional costs for students to pay. I understand that the administration fees will raise only around $14 million. That is a tiny drop in the bucket compared with what this Government is spending on motorways, which is in excess of $19 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe are opposed to administration fees for students because they add to the burden that students are already struggling under; they add to the repayment time, increasing that burden over the course of graduates\u2019 student loan repayment; and, lastly, they reduce the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus. We think the repayment bonus is a good thing. We think we should be looking for more carrots, as opposed to sticks. We support voluntary repayment bonuses. In fact, we support writing off a year\u2019s student loan debt for each year the graduates stay in New Zealand. We want to see Kiwis staying in New Zealand, especially after they have graduated. We think that carrots are a much better way forward, instead of looking at the path of debt collectors or of charging extra fees on the loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EBefore I get into the substance of the bill and the reasons why we are opposed to the admin fees, I make just a quick point that it is good that this bill does not introduce interest on student loans. I am sure the Government benches are looking forward to that announcement if it comes. I hope the National Party does not announce bringing back interest on student loans. It was a shame we had interest on student loans under a Labour Government for so many years, and I feel that it should have reduced the interest earlier. Labour waited until 2006. Obviously, the issue won the election for them. It was a vastly popular issue. A huge proportion of this country\u2014around one-sixth, or 560,000 Kiwis\u2014has a student loan. Not having interest on loans has made a significant difference to the burden facing Kiwi graduates. I acknowledge that Labour introduced it, and it is good that this bill does not take it away. But I want to hear confirmation from the Government benches that National will not be bringing back interest on student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe $60 and $40 fees add to the student debt burden. It is not the way we should be going forward. We should be debating how we can decrease student fees and decrease the student loan burden. My big fear is that because interest-free student loans are so popular in this country, the Government is trying to apply interest by stealth. The big fear is that these admin fees are interest by stealth. I am sure the Government benches dearly want to bring back interest on student loans. The accusation we heard in the select committee was that the administration fees are interest by stealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe fact is that we already have a good system with a repayment threshold. Once a graduate with a loan starts earning over the threshold, 10 percent of their salary is docked automatically to go to the Inland Revenue Department. I imagine I am probably the only member in this Chamber with 10 percent of their salary going directly to the Inland Revenue Department, as I slowly but surely pay off my student loan burden. The fact is that we have this system already. The submission by the New Zealand Union of Students\u2019 Associations called this a new tax and said, quite rightly, that those 560,000 students in the community who are worried about taxes and about hearing the tax rhetoric from this Government will be lumped with these new fees and will see them as a tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe fees will increase the repayment time for student loans. If we look at the last student loan report we see that the median repayment time is 6.6 years for someone who graduated in 2004. That is an awfully long time, especially for many of these students who are in their early or late 20s and who are thinking about starting a family. This is part of the reason we are seeing such a big demographic shift over the course of the history of the student loan scheme since 1992. People are delaying having families and buying a home\u2014that is, if they can live the dream and actually afford a home. With the repayment times we are seeing a gender imbalance. We see females taking longer than males to pay off their student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EWe also see this bill reducing the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus. We think that carrots are a good idea, as opposed to sticks. We support the voluntary repayment bonus. If a graduate makes a voluntary $500 repayment on their loan, they get a $50 bonus from the Government, but the fact is that $40 has already gone straight to the Government in these new administration fees\u2014this interest by stealth, or, as they were described in the select committee, these tax increases for the poor. Ultimately, the bill will reduce the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus, because people will say: \u201CWhy bother? I already have to pay these new admin fees. I am just not going to do it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill, which I may talk on in other calls, is about the pay period. We have some concerns around the changes to the pay period. The changes will disadvantage those hard-working part-time students who earn the bulk of their income over the summer, picking fruit, working in the freezing works, or whatever. The fact is that exemptions are available for those students, but I doubt that many students will be either aware of the exemptions or able to access them. There will probably be a lengthy process. It would be good to hear from the Minister of Revenue how, once this legislation passes, we can make it easier for these students to access these exemptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EIn summary, we support elements of the bill, and we oppose other elements of the bill. Ultimately, we need a big discussion of what student loans mean in the future and of how we can reduce the student loan debt burden for students. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u002242d4a4591a144d589000254173d01ba4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242d4a4591a144d589000254173d01ba4\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to listen to the Green Party representative Gareth Hughes. Essentially he was saying that the $1 billion of subsidies that goes to students is not enough and that it should be more. He was saying that the people I used to represent in \u014Ctara, Papatoetoe, and Manurewa are not paying enough tax to subsidise the rich students who come from Karori and places like that. Let us be very clear what he was saying. He was saying that the Government has already taken $1 billion from taxpayers, but that it is not enough. He was saying that he wants to make it $1.1 billion. Guess who is going to pay it? The poor families in \u014Ctara, Papatoetoe, and Manurewa\u2014the people the Green Party guys claim to represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EIn book-keeping there are two sides of the coin: we cannot spend what we do not take from someone else. The Green Party wants to take money from average, hard-working New Zealand families and give it to students, so $1 billion is not enough. I have never heard one of the Green Party members saying to that young boy, that 18 or 19-year-old who wants to buy a truck and set himself up in the business of carting goods, that they will give him a subsidy. No damn way! They will tax him and give it to the affluent. That is what it is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EThe Student Loan Scheme Bill is a simple bill. ACT supports it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00226c2bd4e499024d63ba75e6e7e2bdaa7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c2bd4e499024d63ba75e6e7e2bdaa7c\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. It is a pleasure to stand and speak on the Student Loan Scheme Bill. In our family, education is a big deal. My husband earned his PhD 2 years ago. He works at Massey University, so he is very much into the academic world. It was 25 years ago when I started as a full-time student doing my Bachelor of Arts degree at Waikato University. I then switched after a year to turn my focus to law. Of our five children, four are university graduates and they all have student loans to pay off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EGoing back to my situation, who would have thought in 1984 when I started out at Waikato University that I would now be turning that study to practical effect and implementing law in these hallowed halls? In those days our concerns were about scaling down M\u0101ori. By that, I mean that it was the practice to scale down the marks of students learning te reo M\u0101ori. There is an article by Jill Bevan-Brown that tells the story of a young man\u2019s marks in Bursary M\u0101ori being scaled down from 94 percent to 67 percent. When his mother intervened, she was told that the Government could not afford the cost of large numbers of A Bursaries being earned in the Bursary M\u0101ori exam. Yet the same degree of scaling down was not applied to other languages such as Russian and French. I tell this story because it is but one issue amongst a history of various blocks and barriers that M\u0101ori students have experienced in the transition from secondary to tertiary education. Such a history provides a vital backdrop to the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s position on tertiary education and, in the specific case of this bill, on the student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party believes that tertiary education is a front-end investment in the nation\u2019s future and should be freely available to all. It is from that basis that we seek to increase accessibility to tertiary education to ensure that all people have the chance to pursue tertiary education. So how does the student loan scheme fit into this framework? The M\u0101ori Party has tried very hard to ensure that sufficient attention is paid to student loan debt repayments. It has been our position that student loan debt repayments should start only when a student starts earning one and a half times the average wage. We have also recommended that there be a 5-year grace period for repayments after graduation. That is our core position, so we have been on the alert to see how this bill, which repeals the Student Loan Scheme Act 1992, the current student loan scheme legislation, can be seen in that light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ESignificant points of the bill currently before the House are that it will increase the loan establishment fee from $50 to $60 and establish an annual $40 Inland Revenue Department administration fee. These would not seem to be aspects that we can support. Further, when we read the submissions, we see that the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association supports the current annual assessment of earnings to determine student loan repayment obligations, rather than the proposed shift in the bill to pay-period repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association is concerned about the proposed move away from a simple annual repayment threshold to a weekly, fortnightly, or monthly pay-period system, and is opposed to any increased obligations that borrowers may therefore face under this legislation. Its argument was one of consistency. A shift to a pay-period system is inconsistent with other tax obligations. PAYE payments are determined on an annual basis with a year-end square-up of income, as is child support and Working for Families. Student loan borrowers should not be treated differently, particularly if the Inland Revenue Department is supposedly aiming to improve systems and remove complexity for all parties. On this ground, it is the view of the M\u0101ori Party that the increase in the loan establishment fee and the introduction of an annual Inland Revenue Department administration fee will have a negative impact on students who have student loans. Numerous annual reports from Te T\u0101huhu o te M\u0101tauranga tell us that M\u0101ori certificate-level students carry a larger student loan debt 5 years after study, reflecting notably lower earnings. M\u0101ori with bachelors\u2019 degrees or postgraduate qualifications also have notably higher average leaving loan balances than non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EYet some issues have come up during our discussion on the bill that warrant further investigation. The implementation of the policy and administrative reforms through a new loan management system has proven more complicated than the Inland Revenue Department expected, so this bill is a genuine attempt to make implementation easier. The bill extends the exemption for full-time full-year students from having repayment deductions made from their salaries or wages to also include students who undertake the equivalent of a full-time study workload for part of a year, students who start to draw down a student loan before their study commences, and students who work over short non-study periods or the Christmas period and intended to study after that period. That is a step forward in terms of being prepared to factor some flexibility into the system, which we see as positive if we are serious about supporting students to access tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill also rewrites the legislation governing the administration of student loans, reforming the way student loans are repaid, the way borrowers manage their loans, and the way loans are to be administered. The changes allow borrowers to manage their loans electronically and allow the Inland Revenue Department to provide more services to borrowers. The students\u2019 own association, the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association, has spoken very positively about this aspect of the bill. It sees that the expansion of online services and increased electronic and personal management of outstanding student loan balances will be of great benefit to borrowers generally, and will be particularly useful for overseas-based borrowers. The introduction of a new electronic loan management system will enable students to monitor and manage their loans online. From accounts, that has been received positively by students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EOne of the dilemmas that parties come to\u2014well, parties that have the option of voting on principle rather than just the party line\u2014is that we oppose some parts of the bill, such as the increased costs for students, but we support other parts, such as the incentive to be more effective and, particularly, to move into the information age. Our vote reflects this dilemma. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b037c5e2e2e44c80b6f262d67e35df9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b037c5e2e2e44c80b6f262d67e35df9d\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Malo le soifua. I rise to support the Student Loan Scheme Bill. All of the arguments\u2014all of the logical arguments, anyway, from members on this side of the House\u2014have been put forward for this bill. It is about reforming the tax system to bring it up to modern times. It is about delivering certainty for taxpayers so that they have the relevant information before them. It is about allowing them to interact directly with the Inland Revenue Department at any time with speed of access, and that interaction is primarily online. It is about providing good value for money for our taxpayers, in terms of how we go about receiving student loan payments. In doing so, it is about building trust and integrity in our tax system, allowing us to get higher levels of compliance and higher levels of repayments, particularly when loans are interest-free. It is about bringing about change that is beneficial to all New Zealanders. It is about bringing down the costs of administration. It is about speeding up our loan repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EMy personal experience, having spent a number of years overseas when I had a student loan, was that I found it difficult to communicate with the Inland Revenue Department, whether I was communicating from England, Australia, or the United States. The changes we are about to put in place will bring about easier access for those who actually want to pay back the moneys but who find it very difficult to communicate with the Government departments. There is a simple message: the bill is about simplicity for our users, making it easier for them to comply with their requirements under their student loan contracts, and easier for our bureaucrats to administer such a system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude, I raise one point about student loans. There seems to be some uncertainty from the benches across the other side of House about why student loan recipients are an asset. They are debtors. Student loan recipients are people who owe money to the State. That is why they are an asset, and that is why in order to facilitate the repayment of debts it is important for us as a Government, as it is for any prudent organisation, to put in place systems that will facilitate repayments in a more effective and a more efficient way. That is why we are bringing about these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIt was a pleasure to sit on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I thank those officials and submitters who participated in the process, and I thank fellow committee members. Finally, I salute the Minister of Revenue for the changes he has put in place in this area. These changes are long overdue. They certainly did not happen under the Labour Government, but they are happening under this hard-working National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002283de527788814eb889137d4e052a3763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283de527788814eb889137d4e052a3763\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to speak on the Student Loan Scheme Bill. As other Labour speakers have indicated, we are supporting this bill, albeit with some concerns about a couple of matters, which I will go into in a moment. First I will respond to some of the comments made during the debate. I start with my colleague Gareth Hughes from the Green Party. I want to make clear that we on Labour\u2019s side of the House are very proud of the changes Labour made to the student loan scheme when we were in office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen I was a borrower in the student loan scheme we were charged interest on our borrowings while we were studying\u2014while we had absolutely no means of being able to pay it back. It created this phenomenon called flat-spotting, which means that people could earn, and earn, and earn money, but the interest would keep going up and they could not pay it off. Labour made sure that we removed interest on student loans while people were studying. Then we moved on to remove interest completely from student loans. I am proud of that. I am proud that that achievement has made it much easier for people to pay off their loans. It has worked in trying to keep graduates in New Zealand. That was actually the purpose of the change: to incentivise people to stay in New Zealand, because interest is still charged when a borrower is overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe also made tertiary education more affordable generally. We introduced the fee maxima policy. I sat on a university council in New Zealand in the mid-1990s. In 1 year fees went up by 18 percent, and the next year fees went up by 15 percent. That made it really difficult for people to afford tertiary education. When Labour came into office we introduced the fee maxima policy, which meant that institutions could not put up their fees by more than 5 percent per year. That demonstrably helped students by keeping the cost of their education down. We also extended eligibility to student allowances, which meant that fewer people were borrowing from the student loan scheme. That was very important to the academic success and welfare of many students. So I say to Mr Hughes that although he may have ideals for further changes to the way tertiary education is funded\u2014and I too want to see it become more affordable\u2014I think the Labour Government\u2019s record on tertiary education in its last term of office is something to be proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of Sir Roger Douglas, we heard a familiar speech from him. My only response to it is that the reason why I support investing in tertiary education is so that the children of the truck driver from \u014Ctara can have a tertiary education. Why should we limit their opportunities? We need to invest in tertiary education so that everybody has the chance to improve themselves, no matter where they come from. Tertiary education, in my mind\u2014and I know that Sir Roger will disagree with this\u2014is a public good, for the most part. In the mid-1990s the Todd task force, which looked into tertiary education, tried to come up with a balance between the public and the private good in tertiary education. The truth is that there is not a scientific formula for that, but the reality is that we all benefit from tertiary education, because we benefit from having people with skills, who can then go on to be part of our productive economy. It is an investment in all of our futures. It is especially an investment in the future of someone who comes from a background where they may not have the resources themselves to pay for tertiary education. I think we should have the ambition for the people from \u014Ctara to be able to be part of the tertiary education system, which is why we need to invest in it, rather than trying to see it portrayed as some kind of middle-class benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will now return to the bill itself and say, as other speakers have said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538335f8a6ba4eb5be094076cf2868e7\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Return to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c43310b817545b3bb109b0c6c24de4c\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Hipkins that I was responding to comments in the debate. I will now return to the bill itself and say, as other speakers have said, that there are some good elements in this bill. I particularly support the idea of a more electronic-based system for the loan scheme. As I said in the first reading debate, when I was looking at some of the forms being used for student loan borrowers when a constituent visited me in my office with a problem with their loan, I recognised the forms as ones that I had been part of designing as a student politician in the mid-1990s. So there is absolutely no doubt that the time has come to update the systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs Mr Lotu-Iiga said, an electronic system will be very helpful for people overseas, and we want people who are overseas to be able to pay back their loans and to interact with the Inland Revenue Department in a sensible way. I have one issue around the electronic system, which is the question of how it interacts with the redesign of the computer system at the Inland Revenue Department. It is quite clear that historically Government agencies have struggled with large computer projects. Need I mention INCIS\u2014the integrated national crime information system\u2014to the House? As we go through this debate and in the Committee stage, I have a number of questions for the Minister around the interaction between these changes to make electronic payments easier and the overall change of the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s computer system. But overall that is a very good aspect of the bill, and it is certainly one that we can support, because it will help borrowers manage their loans and help with consistency of treatment between different borrowers. That change is important to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe two areas I want to speak about in the remainder of this call\u2014and I will certainly come back to them in the Committee stage\u2014are the administration fee changes and the changes to the pay period assessments. It is difficult to understand exactly what the Government is doing with the administration fee. We have an increase to $60 for the fee for students drawing down a new loan, and a charge of $40 for borrowings. A new charge is being introduced here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209adfa69739c4f859d887b7e495e9a1d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Full of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9a66c3c8774c69b7dd7affece9c3a1\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the question, I say to Mr Hipkins, because when we look at the actual costs in front of us we need to ask whether any new increase in costs would justify a change. According to the regulatory impact statement, there will not be any new cost. In fact, the new computer system should save money in the long run, subject to the questions that we will ask the Minister of Revenue. So money will be saved. The whole thing should lead to quicker repayments of loans, so there is no additional cost there. We have to ask ourselves why a new fee is being introduced, when the costs of running the scheme look like they might be going down as a result of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe conclusion that has to be drawn here is that the National Government has been desperate to reintroduce interest to student loans. This was the policy that John Key said he would oppose with every bone in his body, and now we have a new fee being introduced. It does look like the reintroduction of interest by stealth on student loans. That is what this new fee looks like. There is no actual justification for putting it in place. When we get to the Committee stage of the bill we will certainly want to ask questions about how justifiable this new fee being introduced under this bill will be. We do not believe that it is justifiable; we believe that in fact it is the introduction of interest by stealth by a Government that wants to reintroduce interest. John Key and Steven Joyce have both gone as close as they can to saying that they would like to reintroduce interest on student loans, but they know that politically they cannot say so. So by stealth we have a new $40 fee being introduced here for borrowers. I believe that it is the equivalent of interest. Although we support the positive changes around the electronic system, we do not support the introduction of that fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other matter, as I have said, is the question of the repayment period. I acknowledge the work the Finance and Expenditure Committee has done on this matter. A number of concerns were raised, both in the first reading debate and then by submitters, about the fact that this change would be penalising students, particularly those who work intensively in holiday periods so that they do not have to work while they are studying. If they were to earn more than $367 a week in one of those holiday periods, for instance, under the bill as introduced they would be forced to make repayments on that. That would be unfair, because that is the money they would be saving to be able to use during their study period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that there have been changes to the bill, particularly to clause 48, that I think will largely deal with that concern, and there are changes to clauses 73 to 89 that also deal with this matter. But when the Minister is in the chair in the Committee stage I would like to ask him some questions, because I was not on the select committee. I would like to ask some questions during the Committee stage as to whether we have dealt with the question of making sure that those people who work intensively in their holiday periods will not be penalised under this law by moving from an annual pay assessment to a pay period assessment. I think that is important because we do not want students working undue hours during their study period; we want them to be able to focus on their study. In the commentary on the bill I think there is a statement about not wanting people to borrow unnecessarily, either. That is a different way of looking at it. I think the select committee has made some good changes that will allay a lot of the concerns that we on this side of the House have about the way in which the assessment is changing from an annual assessment to a pay period assessment. But there are still questions to be answered to make sure that students are not unfairly penalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOverall, we support this bill, but we do have concerns around the administration fee and the repayment period, and we will be raising those in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00227d8200e3c4154b97b0b72a974c16aaa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d8200e3c4154b97b0b72a974c16aaa1\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on the Student Loan Scheme Bill. This bill will have the support of at least the two main parties in the House. It is part of the wider reform of the student loan scheme, in which I think everybody sees merit, to make it easier for students to be able to deliver their part of the bargain in repayment. It is changing some of the requirements of the student loan scheme but keeping intact the main element of the scheme, the interest-free student loans, which this Government has committed to retaining and has done so. Students around the country no doubt are very grateful for that in these very tough economic times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b87db26fc7a4d50866cc0922c7b755d\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: What about the students in Hamilton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad10b44ab6f496fbe513090d0f40369\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, students in Hamilton are especially grateful for that. I think it has been a big sacrifice for this country to make sure that we can deliver that, and I think it is a tribute to the Government that it has been able to deliver that in these most difficult of times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe student loan scheme is enhanced by this bill. We look forward to more students being able to take advantage of educational opportunities in the future through our reforms in the education sector, so that we can lift our economic performance even higher. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc503b1083243709f6bd8036780b207\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc503b1083243709f6bd8036780b207\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in the second reading of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. As my colleagues have said, Labour supports this bill, albeit with some reservations. It has been very interesting listening to the debate, and I think the Committee stage will be very interesting. There are certainly a couple of questions that we want addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIt has also been interesting listening to people reminisce about their university days. I come from a generation who did not have student loans and student fees. I was not the best of students. I studied in the 1970s when it was quite fashionable to drop out. I hate to admit the fact that taxpayers paid for me to go to university and I did not complete my studies, though I did go on later to do trade union and labour studies with my colleague Sue Moroney. I did not need a student loan for that study, because my union paid for me to do it. So I have never had to experience a student loan. I am very grateful to former generations for allowing me to do that initial study, which I do not think was completely wasted, but also to complete studying later on. However, my son has experienced a student loan. He has just returned from San Francisco this week on a temporary visit, and he will be very interested in how much easier it will be for him to communicate with the Inland Revenue Department and to make his repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOne of the things we hope for from this bill and the changes it will make is that it will make it more likely that some of the former students who are overseas will be able to repay their debts and bring their skills back home to New Zealand. Unfortunately, I think an awful lot more than just student loans is keeping our best and brightest overseas. We know that it is to do with the low wages in New Zealand and the fact that we have a huge gap between here and Australia, for example. Opportunities for jobs are so much better in many other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to amend the student loan administration system to an electronic format. That seems very sensible. The purpose is to make it easier for borrowers to communicate with the Inland Revenue Department, wherever they are. As the Green member Gareth Hughes said, it is interesting that it has taken a while for the Inland Revenue Department to get student loan administration on to an electronic system. I understand that the student loan scheme as it is currently administered is pretty unwieldy, is expensive to maintain, and has limited ability to accommodate further changes. It is good to see the system moving to the modern era, and to see the Inland Revenue Department being able to move student loans to a system that is much easier for students who have borrowed money. The repayment method is also being simplified to avoid the end-of-year square-ups for most borrowers, and late repayment penalties are being simplified and eased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I have said already, Labour supports this bill, as we believe that it will improve debt repayments. Student loan debt is a major factor driving graduates overseas, and, as I have said already, it is one reason they do not come home. We want them to come home and bring back their skills, so if this bill helps, we welcome that. However, we do have a couple of concerns, which will be outlined in my contribution and also in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe student loan debt held by overseas graduates is a real problem. It is something we have to address. To this end, we particularly support the changes in the bill to late payment penalties, from a total of 19.56 percent interest per year to just 10.6 percent, or 8.6 percent if the student enters into instalment arrangements. Treasury expects these changes to increase student loan receipts by up to $22 million a year by 2014. That is a positive step forward, but we do have to ask why, then, we need to have an increase in the student loan establishment fee from $50 to $60. As other speakers have said, this is an attempt to introduce interest by stealth. It seems completely unnecessary when this bill will actually improve repayments. We need to understand, and we will be asking questions about, why this is necessary, and why the Government thinks it has to reintroduce interest by stealth. It will add an extra financial burden on those who are already struggling to pay their bills and who have incurred substantial debts as a result of their studying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESimilarly, another concern we have is that it appears unfair that a borrower who, due to the new pay period deduction system, unintentionally makes excess repayments of over $500 in a year is not able to apply for the 10 percent excess repayment bonus at the end of the year. It appears that the Government has not really fully thought out the impacts of this simplification plan. Perhaps a simpler and fairer way of dealing with it is to say that no student has to repay debt while they are participating in full-time study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill does take a positive approach to managing student loan debt, but I have to say that there will be tens of thousands of students to whom this bill does not apply. I cannot help but reflect on that in my contribution. At a time when we should be investing in tertiary education for all, we are seeing caps, cuts, and a dampening of demand for all tertiary education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c9c1c6be864f099982152750817ea5\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: All we\u2019re seeing is food stamps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4616700adbf488698574714b85db08e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: All we are seeing is food stamps. That is all we are seeing. Yes, that is right. But I am also very, very concerned about the exclusion of 55-year-olds from loan access. It sends the message to older people that there is no point in them reskilling, and no point in adult education. Of course, that does not apply in this bill. These people are excluded from this bill, which makes this whole policy pretty questionable. A policy that excludes over-55-year-olds is very short-sighted, punitive, and harsh. We are in a country with an ageing workforce. We are told repeatedly that people will have to change their jobs many times during their lifetime. They will have to reskill as things change. We know that the jobs we are training our younger students to do today do not yet exist. Yet here we are telling older people that they are on the scrap heap and not worthy of adult education. I think that is really unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the removal of the fee maxima\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f685bd1a8c4c11b8f3289717210924\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Also not in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7665d9e0f764cc9bd0a4ada1619317e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not in this bill, of course, but it is one of the things we are very concerned about. \u2014and replacement with an annual fee movement limit. National members can go on and on about the delights of this bill\u2014and I really loved David Bennett\u2019s contribution; he was talking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a9c177d629e48a58e555456f694175b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I missed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222846d852da254c6eb5e9c2b9b9f48e19\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Robertson missed it. It was all about what a wonderful job this Government is doing on student loans, and how students all around the country will be thanking this Government and be very, very grateful to it. They are not grateful; they are very, very concerned about some of the policies of this Government and the things it is doing, like the removal of the fee maxima. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said at the beginning, Labour does support this bill. We have some concerns about a couple of questions, which we will be asking during the Committee stage. I have a final word for Sir Roger Douglas. His contributions on these things are always eminently predictable. It is a long time since he represented the people of \u014Ctara. The people of \u014Ctara want their children to study, and they want them to do well. Those children are as entitled as anybody else in the country to have decent and affordable study. If Sir Roger talked to any of the Pacific families in \u014Ctara he would find that out. They are ambitious for their children. They do not deserve to be treated or talked about in any way that is different from anybody else in this country. Those children are our future, and we need to look after them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u00222bcc4b362fc64324a2c7d9ebf17ef2ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bcc4b362fc64324a2c7d9ebf17ef2ce\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and support the Student Loan Scheme Bill. I will start off by referring to the comments of the previous speaker, Darien Fenton, on the speech by Sir Roger Douglas. I actually agree with nearly everything Sir Roger said. He pointed out that in many situations, one of the problems with the student loan system is the ability of those poor people out there to go into tertiary education. I grew up in a State house, and no one paid for my education. But Darien Fenton claims that $100 a year will put people off getting a student loan and that they will not go into tertiary education. That will not happen. It will mean that the butcher in \u014Ctara and the factory worker in Aranui will not pay for the lawyer in Fendalton. I think that is a good thing, as does this John Key - led Government. You see, this bill is all about simplifying the student loan system to make it easier for those people to pay, and to keep tabs on how much they owe and how much they are paying back, and I think that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EIn the first reading of the bill I spoke about my personal experiences of having a $12,000 student loan. With paper-based systems it took months to send records back and forth, and this sort of legislation removes that. Many of my friends now live overseas. I think only three out of the 14 people who were in my graduating class at university are still in New Zealand. Those people have all paid back their student loans, but they all spoke of their experiences of paying back their student loans in terms of the annoyance involved in sending paper-based records back and forth from their home addresses. That caused a lot of problems for them, and this bill will go towards solving that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003ENo one has spoken on Supplementary Order Paper 200, which amends this bill. Given that it came in after the first reading, I think that it is beholden on us to quickly touch on it. I think the Supplementary Order Paper is a very good one. It was brought forward by the Minister of Revenue. The Supplementary Order Paper means that the loans of those people who do not operate within the rules of the student loan scheme can be recalled. There have been some instances of this, particularly with regard to those overseas borrowers who exit New Zealand with no intention of ever paying back their loan or of operating within the rules of the student loan scheme. The Supplementary Order Paper that has been introduced strengthens the power of the revenue authority to recall those loans. Those people will have to pay back their loans, and that is a good step in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EFinally, we look forward to passing this bill, hopefully in the next few days, and in years to come we will look back and see that the National John Key - led Government will have spent more money on tertiary education than any other Government before it. We will see that the administration fee that we are putting in place will do only one thing: it will change the incentives, so that people will help pay towards the cost of administrating their student loans. That will be a fairer scheme than the one we have today. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf9690b2c18541a98950abfd0915f509\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Student Loan Scheme Bill be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee79e91e91e34ac6a0840e6b07434510\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ccfca13dd844e6dae07f5163b401edf\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary matters, loan advances, and New Zealand-based and overseas-based borrowers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224b8d3b60f837433e8747094faaefcd6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b8d3b60f837433e8747094faaefcd6f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on clauses 3 to 24 includes schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223e704fcfb96e468da99086fc09873863\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e704fcfb96e468da99086fc09873863\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I look forward to a full debate on the Student Loan Scheme Bill, a bill that Labour is supporting but with reservations. This part deals with the purpose of the bill, and I could probably begin my comments there. I will talk primarily in this contribution about the move to an electronic system for administrating student loans, but talking in more general terms about the purpose of what this Act\u2014which the bill will become\u2014is designed to do, clause 3 states that it is to: \u201C(a) provide for the effective administration of student loans; and (b) provide for the collection of student loan repayments; and (c) provide transparency about student loans so that borrowers understand their obligations for those loans; and (d) encourage borrowers to repay their student loans at the earliest possible time.\u201D Those are all good things, and those are all things that Labour supports and agrees with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt would be fair to say that the student loan scheme at the moment is radically different from the student loan scheme that was introduced in the early 1990s, and one that has been in need of refinement for some time. I have spoken in previous debates on the loan scheme about the difficulties that I personally had as a student loan borrower in making sure that my loan was repaid and that I ended up with a zero balance. Getting accurate information about a student loan balance at any given time can be incredibly difficult. It is probably the most difficult for students who are still studying, because in the first year that their loan is drawn down it is administered by Work and Income or StudyLink, and then in subsequent years by the Inland Revenue Department. At the end of the year their loan balance is transferred from StudyLink to the Inland Revenue Department, which means that if they are in the second, third, or fourth year of study, they effectively have two loans, one with the Inland Revenue Department and one with StudyLink. It has always been a challenge for people to get accurate information about their loan balance at any given time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does\u2014and we are definitely in support of this\u2014is allow for real-time transfer of information between those two administrators, if you like, of the student loan scheme, so that at any one point in time students or borrowers will be able to log in and get accurate, up-to-date information about their loan balance. That is important. It is useful. It is what we can do with all of our banking now. We can log in and check our bank balances and credit card statements without any difficulty, so why we cannot do the same with student loans has, I guess, been a point of contention. I think that all student loan borrowers will definitely welcome this measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EHowever, some pitfalls still need to be worked through. With regard to the calculation of interest payments and interest write-offs, the difficulty that I constantly hear about from people is that mistakes are made in interest calculations, either on their part or on the part of the Inland Revenue Department, and in getting accurate information about exactly how much they need to repay. This generally tends to happen when borrowers get towards the end of the repayment of their student loan. They might get to the point where they have only a few hundred dollars left to pay, so they will cancel the salary deductions from their salaries because they know that their salary deductions will potentially be more than the amount that they have to pay. They will go ahead and do that. They will then try to get from the Inland Revenue Department an accurate account of how much they have to pay, and they will make that payment. However, it can then turn out that they have underpaid or overpaid, depending on the interest calculations that were made, so they could end up getting a refund or getting a bill asking for more money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI hope that at some point in time we can get to a system where, for instance, if I want to finish paying off my loan and get a zero balance as of today, I will know that this is the amount I have to pay or the amount that I am being refunded, and that we do not have this process where once borrowers think they have made their final payment, they have to wait a long period of time before they get to find out whether the final payment has been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19c743da2274b96a2fae12b30dd02c9\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: We agree on something, Chris. We agree on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5b032da9bc48d292181bd639cf0cb4\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to see that National members agree on that, because that has been a nightmare for people. The other thing that has been a nightmare is that the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s administration of the scheme using its paper-based system has a few quirks in it at the moment. I finally got to the zero balance point with my loan after a year. It took a whole year to get from being near the final repayment to actually getting the zero loan balance, with a bit of backwards and forwards with the Inland Revenue Department. Then, for about 3 years after that, every year the Inland Revenue Department sent me a statement saying that I had a zero balance on my student loan, because its paper-based system had not quite kept up with the fact that I had actually managed to pay off my loan. That is something that I get from the Inland Revenue Department all the time. I am surprised that it did not add the cost of the postage to my loan balance and then send me a bill for it, because ultimately the taxpayer was paying for these loan statements to be sent out to me long after my loan had been repaid. In the move to this new electronic system we are putting in place with this bill, I hope that all of that can be avoided, that the system will be a lot more efficient, and that once someone has repaid his or her loan it will be finished. I think that members on this side of the House will be very supportive of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMy colleagues have raised concerns in their second reading speeches about the fee for the establishment of a student loan being increased from $50 to $60, and I certainly concur with them on that. One could ask why we have to increase the amount of money that a borrower will have to pay in order to have a loan in the first place, if the student loan scheme is to be more efficiently administrated. Is this a back-door way of increasing the costs to the borrower, when the costs to the borrower should actually be decreasing? My argument is that if this bill results in more efficient administration of the loan scheme, the savings from that should be passed on to the borrower. To do anything less than that, in my view, would effectively resemble a broken promise by National. National promised that it would keep interest-free student loans. Of course, it made some other promises about making it easier for people to repay their loans faster. If this bill increases the efficiency of the scheme but National does not pass on the benefits of that to borrowers, I think that really is a breach of the good faith that many loan borrowers showed towards National by mistakenly voting for it. We can forgive them for that. But in time I think I would like to see those savings passed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have already seen from this National Government the introduction of an annual fee for student loan borrowers. In my view, an annual fee is a form of interest, because even if somebody does nothing other than make the minimum repayments required to just keep it ticking over, they are now charged an annual fee. In my view, that is a form of interest. Labour is definitely opposed to the increase of the establishment fee, and we were opposed to the introduction of the annual fee. I will deal more with the repayment provisions in my contribution on the next part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will return to the purpose of the bill, which is around the efficient administration of the student loan scheme and greater transparency around student loans. I think we on this side of the Chamber will certainly welcome that. As I have said before, it has been a bit of a black box for loan borrowers trying to figure out exactly how much they owe, and trying to get to the bottom of how much they would need to pay if they wanted to repay their loan in full. I think this bill potentially helps that situation quite considerably, and we certainly welcome it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI could talk a little bit about some of the definitions set out in clause 4, such as the \u201Cannual repayment threshold\u201D. It is established as being $19,084 a year before the compulsory repayments kick in. That is not an awful lot of money. We have seen under this Government that that figure has not been adjusted in the sense that we might have hoped. It probably would have been under a Labour Government. People on very low incomes of only $19,000 a year have to make repayments on their student loans, and I think we may want to consider that situation in this current economic climate. I think everybody who borrows knows that they need to make their repayments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3db2cffce8845958b43819162b1867c\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Are you still talking, Chris? Heavens above! Haven\u2019t you finished talking yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807509204e654c9c961f9b6a96486678\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Amy Adams that we are all earning $130,000-plus a year. That might not seem like a lot of money to us in this House, but for people earning $19,000 a year who are making repayments on a student loan, on top of the tax they have to pay\u2014on top of the tax they have to pay\u2014it is a considerable amount of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0acda3a4297470aaa737e678b40a891\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295838f7cf39a4aa78fc7d98d037747ee\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Clause 4(1) contains the definition of \u201Cannual repayment threshold\u201D, I say for the member, who does not seem to be aware of what is in the bill we are debating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd982f813c743d08cabb6ffa1b4084f\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the change to it, Chris? What\u2019s the change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be34da2ae720486997a351bf3030de03\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know. What has changed? It is in the bill; therefore it can be debated. The excitable Ms Adams, I am sure, will take the next call to talk about that. What has changed? The threshold has not changed, which is the problem, because it should have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2684c983ef143a9a4155dbdbcb55990\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2684c983ef143a9a4155dbdbcb55990\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about two specific elements of Part 1 of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. I have a question for the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, in relation to the first of those elements. Essentially, a large part of what Part 1 does is increase the obligations on borrowers to do certain things. They are actually things that I support. For instance, if someone is going to be away from New Zealand, they have an obligation to tell the Commissioner of Inland Revenue where they are going to be, how to contact them, and how they can work on the loan scheme with the Inland Revenue Department. That is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think it is quite useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 14 is an example of a provision relating to changes to residency. But in particular I ask the Minister about clause 23, which is about the question of notifying the commissioner of absence from New Zealand of 184 or more days. The language here has changed. It very much talks about what a borrower must do. That is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOne of my concerns over a period of time has been the awareness of borrowers of their obligations when they leave the country. As somebody with a background in working on these issues, both as a student politician working for a university and now as a constituency MP, I ask the Minister about the intent around advertising of obligations. Will any more work be done to ensure that borrowers who leave New Zealand actually know what their obligations are? I agree, regardless of whatever concerns I might have about the cost of tertiary education or the amount of debt that students have, that once a borrower leaves New Zealand we want to make sure that that borrower is aware of their obligations and is meeting their obligations. It is not fair for someone to leave New Zealand, disappear off the radar screen, and not have to make repayments, when somebody who stays in New Zealand and works hard is making those repayments. I would like to hear from the Minister about what is envisaged in terms of new ways of letting people know about their obligations, which have been enhanced. There are already obligations\u2014I acknowledge that\u2014but this bill enhances those obligations, and I think it is important that borrowers are made aware of them. I would like the Minister to let us know what happens there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister and the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the way in which some changes have been made, not just in this bill but previously as well, around the treatment of borrowers who are not in New Zealand but for the purposes of the law are treated as if they are\u2014in particular, people who work for the Government of New Zealand overseas, which has always been the case. But the question of their partners is an important one, and I think that is really useful. It is important to say today that if somebody is working overseas in the service of New Zealand, is undertaking postgraduate study overseas, or is undertaking voluntary work\u2014and in schedule 1 there is now an explanation of what constitutes acceptable voluntary work for the purposes of this bill\u2014for all of those people it is now possible for their partners to be treated as if they are in New Zealand. I think that is a very good thing. It is important that when people are overseas in the service of New Zealand they do not have to worry about things like interest on student loans. Clause 20 deals with that in particular, as does schedule 1. Both of those are very good things. That is my question to the Minister around the advertising of borrowers\u2019 obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe only other point I really want to make on Part 1 is about clause 10D, \u201CStudent loan establishment fee\u201D. As I said in my contribution to the second reading, we are looking at a situation now where we are told in the regulatory impact statement that there will not be additional costs on the Inland Revenue Department. We are told that the computer system that the department is bringing in will, in fact, reduce costs. We are told that the electronic arrangements for borrowers to communicate with the department will, in fact, reduce costs. Yet in clause 10D the establishment fee for students goes up from $50 to $60. Later, in Part 5, we will come to the new $40 management fee. So we are actually talking about a $50 increase in total in costs to borrowers on an annual basis. That seems to me to be a pretty big cost increase relative to a system that we are told will actually reduce the cost to the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is why we on this side of the House are suspicious of this change as essentially being a revenue grab by the Government. We think that this looks like the reintroduction of interest by stealth. It looks to us as if a Government that wanted to bring in interest on student loans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf60ee87acee4b62bf31ef5f4af98958\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why are you voting for it, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367a1a27964349b28abce44860c53007\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Tremain that as an Opposition we will vote for things that are good and useful, like the electronic management\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b1599f4ecb4a5fa233a0cb7695285a\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: You just said that it looked like we\u2019re introducing interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceef5ad3fb46400ba94a51ed4612b02f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, Mr Tremain has not been listening to the second reading debate or to the Committee stage. Labour is supporting this bill because it brings in important changes around electronic management of student loans, but just because we are supporting the overall intent of the bill, that does not mean we have to support every single clause. Mr Tremain might like to take a call on clause 10D and tell us why the administration fee is going up to 60 bucks. Then when we get to Part 5 he might like to take a call on why a new fee of $40 is being introduced at a time when we are told the loan scheme itself will become more affordable to the Government because of the other changes in the bill that we do support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt really does look like the introduction of interest by stealth, because this is a National Government that will not go through on what it said earlier: that it wanted to reintroduce interest to the student loan scheme. Mr Finlayson wants to introduce interest to the student loan scheme; I know that. Lots of members on the other side of the Chamber do, but they have decided for political reasons that they are not going to, so something has been brought in by the back door to increase the establishment fee to $60, and Part 5 will bring in the new fee of $40. Members on this side of the Chamber have real concerns about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlthough there are some very good elements to Part 1 in this bill, clause 10D is one that members on this side of the Chamber find very difficult to support, because it looks like it is the National Government trying to reintroduce interest by stealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff75c5c269ff41b887e8c69bda6d1924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff75c5c269ff41b887e8c69bda6d1924\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up from where Grant Robertson left off on clause 10D of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. I think calling that aspect of the bill interest by stealth is rather charitable to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue. Let us be honest: this is a flat fee regardless of how large a person\u2019s student loan is, and regardless of what their income is. When we get that type of tax, the name for it is \u201Cpoll tax\u201D. That is what that fee is: it is a poll tax on graduates and students. I think \u201Cinterest by stealth\u201D is one name for it, but frankly that is rather charitable. Let us call it what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThat is not really what I wanted to focus on. I will go back to the purposes of the legislation. Clause 3 states: \u201CThe purposes of this Act are to\u2014(a) provide for the effective administration of student loans; and (b) provide for the collection of student loan repayments;\u201D. I have a question for the Minister, because I have an example of a bizarre set of circumstances that happened to me in relation to my student loan, and I wonder how often this happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI completed repayments on my student loan earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f69d61fe2694451985ebf08a081875da\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well done!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d95ab317480426ea47846dfbe033c11\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was a day to celebrate, it has to be said. I checked with the Inland Revenue Department, I got the repayment balance, and I even got a letter from the Inland Revenue Department saying that my balance was zero. I had completely paid off my student loan. Strangely enough, only a few weeks ago I got a letter from the Inland Revenue Department informing me that I had to change my tax code back to MSL, as did the payroll here at Parliament, and I started making compulsory repayments of my student loan. I am now $500 in credit. The Inland Revenue Department now owes me $500 in overpayments on my student loan. I would hardly call that the effective administration of the collection of repayments by the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223273d7cd31d84c99a2cb0618e1619fa9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Get Peter Dunne to write you a cheque.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4a66b5d4d64263a80276a2f0a01f89\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not expect a cheque from Peter Dunne. I have been reliably informed by the lovely person I spoke to at the Inland Revenue Department when I finally got through\u2014the person to whom I spoke was fantastic\u2014that I would have that money back by October. So I am very pleased that I will be able to get that back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI have a question for the Minister about how often people who have organised themselves to make sure they have made the exact repayment required, and have faithfully and dutifully made the repayments that they need to make and are required to make by law, then find that through some error by the Inland Revenue Department they have to overpay. The Inland Revenue Department then has to make a payment back to that person due to the ineffective administration of student loans. Given that that is one of the main purposes of this bill, I would be very interested to hear from the Minister how often that happens and whether he has any plans to rectify that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca22991b350c4d5aab17554803f23fb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca22991b350c4d5aab17554803f23fb9\u0022\u003EGARETH HUGHES (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairman. He mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. It is great to take a call in the Committee stage of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. I will not harp on about the use of urgency to pass this law, but I just want to note that a wide discussion is happening online by people asking why Parliament is under urgency to pass this law and other laws on the Order Paper. People are baffled, because they do not see the urgency in this. What it does is reduce the public\u2019s perception of the use of urgency in Parliament. I just wanted to note that before I start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255bb390e-f6c3-498c-bbf6-ea1a8fc993c7\u0022\u003EI will take a look at three parts of Part 1 of this bill: clauses 10D, 4(1)(a), and 21. But first I acknowledge the debate of Chris Hipkins, who is no longer in the Chamber. Chris Hipkins was the student president when I first studied as an undergraduate at Victoria University. We have had a robust discussion with Labour members about what they did and did not do when they had the opportunity when Labour was in Government. I quite rightly remember the member Chris Hipkins, when he was the student president, vocally opposing the Labour Government for not acting fast enough on student loans. But I will not harp on about that point either. I acknowledge that the Labour Government did take interest off student loans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e260dca07754aab85e5d030a94dfc9b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the State farewell for His Excellency the Governor-General. In accordance with that decision of the House yesterday, the Committee is temporarily suspended. The Speaker will resume the Chair at the ringing of the bells.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate suspended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.45 a.m. to 2.20 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b214d72e021417a88518d1d3c8446c6\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf634a49278f433e919347be280cd86c\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022757344e382c448939df80b44925de406\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00223888e709f5d640fcac4c426079a3be0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223888e709f5d640fcac4c426079a3be0d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by the statement made on his behalf in answer to Oral Question No 4 yesterday that \u201Cthere is room for celebration in some of this\u201D regarding youth unemployment rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a88183bcb77c441592a504df2c98422d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a88183bcb77c441592a504df2c98422d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by the full statement made on my behalf: \u201CThere is room for celebration in some of this. For example, M\u0101ori youth unemployment rates have gone from 30.3 percent in June 2010 to 24.8 percent now. That is still too high \u2026 but we are tracking down. There is a long way to go, but 43,000 new jobs last year\u201415,000 of them for young people\u2014is a good start.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c2e525d67b4c08a6afdc2756f5ecf4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What is there to celebrate in the June quarter household labour force survey, which shows that nearly 33 percent of teenage M\u0101ori are unemployed and that nearly 42 percent of 15 to 19-year-old Pasifika are unemployed? Are these figures not evidence of the total failure of his youth unemployment policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631d5f6904c74fdfa4f087d679619999\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: There were a number of things to celebrate in the household labour force survey that was just recently released. We had an unemployment rate that was steady, but we were creating new jobs. There was also a considerable amount of cash put into Budget 2011 for the creation of jobs; around $55.2 million went into a number of programmes. As the Minister for Social Development and Employment noted yesterday, there actually has been a reduction in the M\u0101ori and Pacific youth unemployment rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138de24bb699414ba79d2570438db3e8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will recall that my question specifically asked what there was to celebrate about 33 percent of M\u0101ori teenagers being unemployed and 42 percent of 15 to 19-year-old Pasifika. The Prime Minister ignored commenting on either of those figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c37f5614224d40a5c34567b1ee1318\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had cut his question at that point, then he would be absolutely right, but he went on to talk about those things being indicative of a failed Government youth policy. The Prime Minister pointed out in his answer why he did not see Government youth policy as having failed. So the remedy is in the hands of the questioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf81125bcaa4ef5b28daf2454ed556c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is he celebrating the fact that under his watch as Prime Minister the unemployment rate for 15 to 19-year-old people in New Zealand is at the highest proportion ever since the Great Depression?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224038600802864846bf6f380c0e768845\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very interesting statement by the Leader of the Opposition. Statistics New Zealand has actually been recording the data since 1986, so not quite back to the Great Depression, I say as a starting point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab9082664cd49788fe4f4e5f3774ad9\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3efb29227084a529569837c6c1c7acf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is true, actually. The member can go and check it out if she wants. The second thing is that, yes, the household labour force survey shows that the unemployment of people it considers in the 15 to 19-year-old age group is, from New Zealand\u2019s perspective, high at 24.9 percent. But yesterday the Leader of the Opposition came to the House and told us that was the highest rate in the OECD. Let us just for the purposes of clarification run through a few countries that have a higher rate of unemployment than the household labour force survey shows for 15 to 19-year-olds: Belgium, 35 percent; the Czech Republic, 39 percent; Estonia, 59 percent; Finland, 28 percent; France, 29 percent; Greece, 39 percent; Hungary, 45 percent; Ireland, 46 percent; Italy, 45 percent; Poland, 30 percent; Portugal, 34 percent; the Slovak Republic, 61 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f658c460cf724a1886d722450f4c03a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer has been long enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e30c47428744048c2cd887ff0f9b8d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1088ae100114d9ebd5420e7c61e1e46\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Apologise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f402f471bf2445d86ccc2329247afca\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly do not apologise for telling the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9a3f0ea67cd46589683d05e39f7e5ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just refresh the memories of members. If I have to evict someone today, they will be out for the rest of this week, so we will have a little order. I do not blame the Leader of the Opposition totally then, although he should not have done that. There was obviously an interjection during a point of order, which caused that reaction. But we will not have interjections or any other comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224863aaa3209f4de6be7742465d6a03b9\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table some statistics from the Parliamentary Library that go back to 1986 and show that the 27.6 percent unemployment rate for those 15 to 19-year-olds is by far the highest rate we have had since that date, and is even much higher than it was in the dark days of the early 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221954e03297904962a3b235bf81e657eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb6188229da44a9aa372a28cc317bd4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by his claim that 60 percent of the 58,000 New Zealand young people under 24 who are described as not in employment, education, or training are actually at school or at university?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205aa80a594544c92ba6ca03a790d8bf4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cc393195db44708efdd455408b576b\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document, which is an email from Andrew McLaren of the servicing and analysis team at Statistics New Zealand, saying explicitly that those people are not in employment, education, or training. They cannot be at school or university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e90e118c2dc4dd9823e4cd1076f701a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9852bb3731d4d91987fd7e6ae3dd6de\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister still say that 60 percent of those classified by Statistics New Zealand as not being in employment, education, and training are at school or university?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a89eeaae1c4788b1f67c042b556ab3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The reason for that is that the member will be wrong, like he was wrong yesterday when he came to the House and said the New Zealand teenage unemployment rate had trebled under National\u2019s watch. Actually, it went from 18 percent to 28 percent, so not even by Phil Goff\u2019s maths is that a trebling. It is like when he came to the House yesterday and said the unemployment rate for 15 to 19-year-olds had increased from less than 10 percent when National took office to 28 percent. In fact, it went from 18 percent to 28 percent. It is like he said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f90ac77a404605af40d7b5f86fd8c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ef070524614e278cb7534bbcd92f33\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995f3373060a4877ae22977859723168\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe02c688bc334b83ad650d7384fec48a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister just now denied that the number of people aged 18 to 24 on the unemployment benefit had trebled, was the Minister for Social Development and Employment wrong in her answer to written question No. 6058, which shows a 733 percent increase in the number of 18 to 24-year-olds on the unemployment benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b360cf6ce149b5ba3f66c6b14f7819\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that written question and answer, but I can tell the member that at December 2008 the unemployment rate for teenage people was recorded by the household labour force survey as 18 percent. In June 2011 it was 28 percent, and that is not a trebling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f84a62fad754ded9ae39cda87f1be64\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the written question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a072eb42f3f40fba430c2b905cb88eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We do not do that. Does the member want to ask a supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c782118dc0b43b3a3e4a6b512b18100\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: When is the Prime Minister going to front up and admit that his unemployment figures are wrong, that he is conning the public, and that the situation has got worse than it has ever been regarding the proportion of young people who are unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc14ce7c0da84275bc55cf6f51236a63\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I do not come to the House like Phil Goff did yesterday and make four or five different errors. I get my numbers right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3056ab2ec54ee89dfe9d543bfa89ac\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member has been asked a question. He has to answer the question, and not simply relitigate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222030a8f31f544138b7911804acc435ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe I need any assistance on this. When a Minister is accused in the question asked of conning the public, the questioner can expect to get fair measure back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022874a84a4871a43c6b04f3803f1637edb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the member came to the House yesterday and said the New Zealand Institute reports that the youth unemployment rates in New Zealand are the highest of any developed country. I did not even get through the list; actually, you cut me off, Mr Speaker, because of the amount of time I had spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b59f13432944b46b18e7b7583fb8766\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: You are just conning the public, John, and you know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221263e718dee42b991dec8aac78cf5b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us just, for the purpose of economics, run through a few options. There are three measures of looking at unemployment in New Zealand. The household labour force survey indicates whether a person is looking for 1 hour\u2019s work, and 60 percent of the 15 to 19-year-olds they rang up in that survey were in training, work, school, or, basically, university. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85e388f070a4dd188951297de377899\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what Stats said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0dbcf133d1d46dd8a4a73cbb9039a33\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5d4a64ac964bc098077abc3d7b0cbd\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the figures\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f4d427d6c94985be80e96fe2991331\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a matter for clarification. The second way of looking at it is, basically, to look at those who are on an unemployment benefit, and what we know is that in the last 18 months for young people aged 18 to 24 that number has fallen from 23,000 to 16,500. For the record, that was the way that the previous Government used to look at people who were unemployed in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290230808375a4278a236cdf1ef136fbd\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Get your facts right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e01f424e464454aaaa0d7c502313adb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That interjection was characteristic of the problem I am having as a member of this House. I am being told to get my facts right, but I have in my hand all of the documents from which my comments have been made. I seek leave of the House to table those documents now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257af9cf6481044a8a259f118e5c5a085\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet, if that has escaped the member. The member chose to use certain language in his question, and the Prime Minister was somewhat measured in responding. He explained why in his view he was not conning the public: he went back to the basic statistics. I do not believe that the member has anything to complain about in that answer, given the question he asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592f4881256140638da8844a92930e3f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a document, which is the New Zealand Institute discussion paper 2011/1, which says that, actually, our youth population has the highest share of unemployment of any youth population in the OECD, which the Prime Minister denied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df20fa24351441f8fe61e1725693f9b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the New Zealand Institute of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a295aa0f779457fbf139e3245e02a87\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Institute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed76db378c9471ea0f2c3c11bf73b11\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c38fb8e7ba40a39ac978accac5d417\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table this email from Andrew McLaren of the servicing and analysis team, Statistics New Zealand, which says the 58,000 people were not in employment, education, or training, and had no apparent home duties that required them to stay out of the labour force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436dffaaa2e247789f51acb67e266925\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just check that that is not the same document that the member sought to table a while ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b51a130923af4886a4142d3266b80f9d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: No, I asked before, I think, to table a different document, which was the Parliamentary Library statistics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bae55a06cc46739657af47bcf13ada\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there was an email\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293fb60c2d56445d2b241ab762c58a535\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did I? OK, that is the same document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa9c55325dc474fa8f8cc9c85c85791\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that leave has already been granted for that document to be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3136c5991704025a9ac462d700f5927\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How is the $20 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed7acfc478f4f0499fd90f5f291dc80\u0022\u003EHon Paula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Stop confusing the \u201Cneets\u201D with the unemployment rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293857400a9c440698f6a69096d65ccd2\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Are you finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8520203bfc48a0b85d5c237d42afd8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to hear the question from the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8024490684b417ebcbc928bdc907e95\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How will the $20 million estimated expenditure on youth unemployment that he announced on Sunday be adequate, when Budget 2011 shows that this Government has cut $145.8 million from industry skills training, and when the Minister for Social Development and Employment said most of that money will not go into skills training but go into early childhood services for teenage mums?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d300980325a4b0a8509601492195a21\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Let me take the first point, which is about the $145 million. That was over multiple years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d813dc0a0161495f964ebf2b5e1446c3\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: 5 years, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e761327811044a1aca069b30c41a908\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; 5 years. Thank you for clarifying it, because yesterday the Leader of the Opposition came to the House and said that was an annual number. That is what he said yesterday; $145 million this year, he said yesterday. It all kind of changes depending on which day of the week it is, but that is OK\u2014no big drama. Then No. 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a8ff7c80a0448b98ae0975bf4f6b16\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t keep conning the whole of New Zealand. You\u2019re wrong on everything you\u2019ve said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b370233461f54b05b2adf5f755a4942f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, let us go through the conning bit. Let us understand why a National Government actually reduced that number by $145 million over those 5 years, and what actually happened to that money. That was a scheme run by Labour in 2008, whereby 96,831 people on it did not get one single credit. If they on that side of the House want to spend millions of dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbbf51ae72149ea99b2ffd849bedfee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister has made his point perfectly clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f2daab2dbba457bb34ee768c61bd040\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. On that particular occasion the Prime Minister had been accused of conning the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d9cf90bd9546db83110e906f877b6f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are not going to go down that track. I assessed that the Prime Minister had made his point reasonably in response to the question, and that sufficient time had been taken on it. I accept the basis of the point the member was making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022387f596899d74039838d2e81b8b0c7a9\u0022\u003EQuestion to Leader of the Opposition\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b5ff5cdb0af41279b2a13e7f0c0e8b7\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002297a5a7833e434cc28e5e961307eadaaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a5a7833e434cc28e5e961307eadaaf\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to ask a question of the honourable Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e54f096b8a5348a3bcbfae9ed0318c83\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I guess it is possible for members to ask questions of members. Leave of the House is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? No. I trust it is in order, but let me just check with the Clerk to make sure there is no Standing Order against that. Normally, a question to a member is to do with the member\u2019s responsibilities, but leave has been granted to the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c134d7a46a49088b08a2981f2893ab\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Leader of the Opposition: Given that he is so concerned about youth unemployment, what responsibility do he and his colleagues take for the dramatic rise in youth unemployment after youth rates were cancelled, making it illegal for a young person to take a job at less than $13 an hour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228df34aacefbd4056bc22f687088243fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228df34aacefbd4056bc22f687088243fb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E It is just as well that the question was asked of the Leader of the Opposition, because the Prime Minister does not give answers. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a43303ea1524f8dbb234a6637d37ae0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask members why it was difficult to see me on my feet. There was absolutely no reason to give an answer like that, at all, given the question was asked of the Leader of the Opposition. Actually, I should point out that things have changed a bit since the Leader of the Opposition was last a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e16892382d94da38187792a731f9183\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is that at the time that Labour left office, youth unemployment was a third of the level that it is now. It was at that level because a Labour Government actually invested in skills training for people, a Labour Government created 350,000 new jobs, and a Labour Government reduced the number of people on unemployment benefits to 17,000, and that is a track record I am really proud of. The Prime Minister would do better to halve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167207c9e97640abae678d2a44da79ed\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7594728040b41278d85f04c2e8eca13\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The House did not grant leave for supplementary questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97c4de52d1d48aa93e44e0fe1d9aa01\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the honourable Leader of the Opposition a specific question. He did not answer that question. [Interruption] He was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c665c3907534d388b0f3bb5e0c0de94\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me deal with this problem. I say to some members that I have warned them once already. If I evict someone today, they will be out for the rest of this week. Points of order will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20989546c514c139e6afd6d5dcb387a\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I asked leave of the House to ask a question of the Leader of the Opposition. That leave was granted. I am entitled to have my question answered. The question specifically asked what responsibility the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues take for the dramatic rise in youth unemployment since the minimum wage for 16 and 17-year-olds was dropped. The Leader of the Opposition pointed to the dramatic rise in youth unemployment. We already know about that. What I am asking is what responsibility he and his colleagues are prepared to take for the dramatic situation that young New Zealanders find themselves in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4f5814f5da483fbb09e99c15ebe81b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard the member\u2019s point, and in fairness to the Leader of the Opposition he cited figures for unemployed young people, if I recollect correctly, when his Government left office, and he made further comments about the changes in levels of unemployment. In other words, he was in many ways refuting the question of the member, which he is entitled to do in answering a question. I do not believe that I can pull him back any tighter to the question than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f27526607842079a1e88948fd3d494\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd1364a9f5d4d8998cfb7dd38150119\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are no supplementary questions. Is this a supplementary question to question No. 1 to the Prime Minister? I thought we had moved beyond question No. 1, because the House gave leave for a question to a member. I suppose leave was sought, without my having moved to question No. 2, so I will accept a supplementary question on question No. 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267ed7c50f14a4579847dabfc825ec613\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a0a59e2a3974686b15bf4ce6f62417b\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fae99257b2c41199593ecc1af552fa8\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: How many 15 to 19-year-olds are unemployed now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e3a7d93ab64c0d84e037fc8af9b156\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. If we look at the household labour force survey, we see that there are 26,700 people in the 15 to 19-year-old category. Of those, 60 percent are in school, university, training, or study of some sort, which leaves 15,000 in that category. It is worth making the point that that is 5 percent of the entire number of 15 to 19-year-olds in New Zealand. It is very easy to overstate a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223839a04d6d21459a8fb0542fddaa94b7\u0022\u003EEconomy, Stimulus\u2014Government Policies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u00221b0e0509363944a59ed4c8f31d3c2906\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b0e0509363944a59ed4c8f31d3c2906\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What steps has the Government taken to increase incomes and to give businesses the confidence to invest and create new jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecddd65c7eef4f02916058ba3e5977b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecddd65c7eef4f02916058ba3e5977b8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has taken many steps, including long-term investment in infrastructure, reforming the tax system to reward savings and productive investment, lifting education standards, cutting red tape, continued reform of the public sector, and investing heavily in science and innovation. All of this is helping to build business confidence, because, in the end, sustainable jobs come from confident businesses investing and feeding off the proceeds of New Zealand selling its goods to the world, not off unsustainable jobs from fast-growing government, and debt-funded housing booms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7b5cd75a694316adc757fdbb3cd71b\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the positive results from the Government\u2019s economic programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6c2ff8d16e4ac1a5f5077d3fee84e7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: One positive result is that the New Zealand economy has grown in seven of the past eight quarters, and in this 12-month period is likely to grow faster than the Australian economy. But probably the most important thing is the fact that these policies have assisted with the creation of 43,000 new jobs in the past 12 months. Treasury predicts that if we can stay on track with sensible policies, about 170,000 new jobs will be created over the next 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca660ae556ca46e5bc77f0a7c7d82cf0\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of rising incomes, how has the increase in the after-tax average wage left more money in the pockets of hard-working New Zealanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228991e903e9654359b6b87b513b3916b6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Changes in the after-tax average wage are a combination of wage increases and tax reductions. We do not know the situation of every New Zealander, but the after-tax average wage is rising faster than inflation. In the year to March the after-tax average wage rose 7.4 percent, compared with inflation of 5.3 percent, which is a real increase of 2.1 percent, after all cost of living increases and the one-off rise in GST. Households on those wages are enjoying the benefits of the lowest interest rates in 45 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206cf0285a40f4cf6babadc6df7337314\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What policy ideas would undermine economic confidence and put the good progress to date at risk? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d253c834c55645c28e5b531175b437a6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Any policy ideas that undermine business confidence with unnecessary red tape, and any policy ideas that mean more spending and expansion of government, and particularly spending that is financed by higher taxes and more debt. These would be corrosive of growth in New Zealand but also would make the New Zealand economy more vulnerable when the world is so volatile and unpredictable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022303da830ae1647fd95e44e60494fc70e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When does Treasury project that his policies will return unemployment back to 4.3 percent, which it was when he took office? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6a620fe50c477d8699f6ccf320bbf4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the forecasts show a return to that, but the member will not be taken seriously until he understands that that unemployment rate was based on unsustainable economic growth, fed by rapid Government spending\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221441fe05fbe14cb78a1a5e053f1bde3d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was a fairly straight question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e930e2c6d964450a53a99b0e69e3617\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library showing that Treasury forecasts that by 2025 the 4.3 percent rate will not have been attained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227521a7ea0370432a9f1676a9afe3c424\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d84db2e61c4cf0b15f29e06b04cd35\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: How many jobs were created in the last quarter under his Government\u2019s policies, and how does that number compare with the growth of the working-age population?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba7e2de17504670894ed578d51eb9c3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot give the member those numbers, but in the last 12 months 43,000 jobs were created. That is a major achievement, given that it was done during the fallout from a global recession. What is more, they are real and sustainable jobs, not jobs based on excessive borrowing for a housing boom and a rapid expansion of Government spending, which was unsustainable and unaffordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223332f3df4e554ba5a1ee04f2f9584a2e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document prepared by the Parliamentary Library that shows that the number of persons employed in the last reported quarter increased by 1,000, whereas the working-age population increased by 5,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3495ef8c25b4c2b926b70d61160fbba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9197e583f8c44f6adda576aa4a581f5\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare\u2014Colony Cage Systems for Hens\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002213ef0b945986404ea664312a1c63a273\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ef0b945986404ea664312a1c63a273\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Has he had the opportunity to view the new colony cage systems for hens which the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee is proposing will replace battery hen cages; if so, does he believe they are acceptable from an animal welfare perspective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a832a66313054a99b39032db954d3b97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a832a66313054a99b39032db954d3b97\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes, I have; to the second part of the question, I do not believe that it is in the public interest to express a personal point of view at this stage, as I am awaiting the delivery of a code of welfare that is being prepared currently by NAWAC, the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efcda271c8b84cf0a3dc99781c698d54\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is the Minister responsible for animal welfare, as well as for MAF\u2014the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. He has told us that he has been to see these new cage systems. I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask him for his opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7a8742173a4a5cb8b4dbbeace9d9fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is perfectly at liberty, on the grounds given, not to express a personal opinion. We cannot force Ministers to give personal opinions. He advanced perfectly reasonable grounds for not expressing a personal view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81ee40c7f4c4024bb9d2cfe141c6376\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the taxpayer contributed funding towards the trial of the new colony cage systems through the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s Sustainable Farming Fund; if so, how much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9d4416d4394c96a880073a984bc9d6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of any funding from the Sustainable Farming Fund going towards the testing of the new colony cage system. I am certainly aware that through Vote Agriculture we fund the work of the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795a9c49fe1c4acebd316244fe3950c0\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table details of a Sustainable Farming Fund project that show that $390,000 was contributed towards the colony cage system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86830c6bce14a8e9f471520dc4a9b1c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the source of the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c463eee65b64338be59ae8b56abec0d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: It is from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b73ee4311e4edeb4b7dab9c0179c89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table this document from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s website. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222397758f1c2945938ab19ffdece43ffa\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that taxpayers and the media should be able to view the new colony cage systems so that they can see for themselves how the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s money has been spent and whether the new cages provide good welfare for the hens; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b70ef157c2e4ecd8637d1285898e859\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It would be useful if the public was more aware of the benefits of such systems of farming. The difficulty in allowing some people to view the systems is that, from past experience, they have not respected the privilege of being allowed into these places. In many cases, there was also quite a considerable biosecurity risk in allowing members of the public into quite intensive farming systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dc6d26753746fc90daf152413dc60c\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: As the Egg Producers Federation is refusing to allow any members of the media to see the new colony cage systems, would he be prepared to go on one tour of the colony cage project and take members of the media with him; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228858a0fe6bb24e03b99d4e77e1b99d83\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in an earlier answer to a question, I have already had the opportunity of having a very good look at these systems. I think they are a considerable improvement on the current system. We need to allow this work to be done by the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee in a non-emotional, scientific way so that we can deliver credible codes of welfare to this industry, as we do to other industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227213ce6df3c64b7d9b4ba369bd53dbfd\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the reason for the excessive secrecy surrounding the trial could be a fear that if people were able to see the cages for themselves, they would consider them to be unspeakably cruel; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d7373beb414b829cba5258b54c925e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that for one minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f1e5aacebc41aeb14a7939ccdb8431\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry spent hundreds of thousands of dollars assisting the egg industry to move from one cruel cage system to another, instead of requiring the industry to shift to free-range or barn systems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b5b77db9e04385aa1b82dc5f543df8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We need to wait for the finalisation of the code of welfare before we know which recommended system will be available to New Zealand egg producers. I am aware that if we were to shift to a completely free-range system, then the cost of egg production in this country would dramatically increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a733aea79f434d598a47d06d27acc6d7\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms, Youth Initiatives\u2014Payment Card Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb53f647a9804b41af895faf635f5f06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb53f647a9804b41af895faf635f5f06\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her answers to Oral Question No 7 yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00229feb5c79def04023b6aa3bd9ea03cc45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229feb5c79def04023b6aa3bd9ea03cc45\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2932502c05741c489243e8e0237fd22\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her answer yesterday that the Government has announced radical changes for young people, and \u201CWe will be intervening.\u201D, what led her to make that decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225043cc7aae71455bb519576abc126dff\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Concerns for 16 and 17-year-olds who are not in education, employment, or training, and also a real level of concern for teen mothers, some of whom get some great education through the teen parent units, but others do not, and it felt really unequal and uneven. We felt that we could put better support around them, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0c1fe732b045af96659b98ef0de2f1\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the use of a special credit card for people on a benefit that prohibits the purchase of alcohol and tobacco would require the Crown to make moral judgments about individuals\u2019 decisions; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4abd57b92ef469495539dc14ac7e461\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I see the fact that they cannot buy cigarettes or alcohol, to be quite honest, as quite a side issue. It is more that we are paying their rent directly, so that they have a roof over their heads. I see their being able to have utilities, the use of a payment card, and an in-hand allowance on top of that as being quite a responsible thing to do for teenagers as young as 16 and 17 years old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc9b79381a34920b2ed539020620dbc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the sort of oversight proposed by the Prime Minister on Sunday would be highly intrusive and rob individuals of their freedom of choice; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242959dc7f1c440c7bfaba4aade686675\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, in some respects, yes; I do think it is quite intrusive, and I do think it is quite hands-on. But we are talking about young teenagers, and we are talking about, in general, ones who have had pretty rough upbringings at times. Some really do not know what to do. If they were my kids, then I would actually be wanting to wrap more support around them and to put a few more controls in place, so that is what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca54fdf7f9f5429c95266f5d92dec512\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that this kind of oversight spread across the benefit system would impose an enormous administrative burden and cost upon Work and Income?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fcc44d17516419cb7f14b954c1384be\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The policy announced was for 16 and 17-year-olds, and some teen parent 18-year-olds, not across the whole benefit system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc781ff68ce4e4199dae6e50df6b700\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that because a small minority of income support recipients do not use their moneys prudently, this should lead to changes to the way in which welfare is paid or assessed; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9f8063fdec4c5d8575cdd5dbc3fa22\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is less about whether they are using their money prudently, and more about offering them the sort of support this package will offer. The other part of it is that they have to be attached to a non-governmental organisation that wraps support around them. That could be a M\u0101ori organisation that stays with that young teenager for some time as they go through a period of adjustment, or it could be not as hands-on as that, depending on where they are at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a79ac32156849039d78fb98ab8bed51\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Did she send a letter to a businessman on 14 March this year saying a payment card for people on a benefit that forbade alcohol and tobacco purchases would require moral judgments by the Crown, would be highly intrusive, would rob individuals of freedom of choice, and would impose an enormous administrative burden on Work and Income, and there was no need to change the way in which welfare is paid or assessed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931430f27ff347e3980a06b75c45acd6\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, possibly. What the member has not picked up is that, actually, the policy is for 16, 17, and some 18-year-olds. I have said that I do actually see it as intrusive. I do think the administration that comes with it is worth it, and I am backing these young people into a better life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb846c0158a643aa99ff502a9277a0b5\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter addressed to a businessman, dated 14 March, from the Minister for Social Development and Employment, in which she rejects the idea of changing the way welfare is paid or assessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401374e9f1a94330b63776445a16d73f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adacb9199f32464fa440f725bbee7430\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 5, Louise Upston. [Interruption] We have dealt with that question and that issue. I ask for some courtesy from the Labour front bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223343c36f0bd94625a022d3c3a5605e1c\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards, Targets\u2014Better Help for Smokers to Quit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00227d14dabea3d64554893a37e54eaf3fd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d14dabea3d64554893a37e54eaf3fd4\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How have district health boards improved support for their communities through the preventative health target \u2018Better Help for Smokers to Quit\u2019?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228b3e8ff770f443739ee8398e54462b44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b3e8ff770f443739ee8398e54462b44\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In less than 2 years we have gone from zero to 90 percent of hospital patients in nine district health boards offered help to stop smoking. Smoking kills an estimated 5,000 people in New Zealand every year and affects the quality of life of thousands more. The Lakes District Health Board is the first district health board in the country to achieve 100 percent for one of the Government\u2019s three preventive health targets. In the last 3 months every smoker admitted to its hospitals in Rotorua and Taup\u014D was offered advice to help quit, which adds an estimated 433 years of life to the district. They achieved this fantastic result by engaging with staff and creating competition between the wards each month. Red was bad; in this quarter, every ward turned the traffic lights green.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422f4c68dd91434da9047746e17b2235\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What other progress has been made towards better health for smokers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157ef168f3e5478cadb1c0bec71e6656\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Progress is being made across all the district health boards on the Better Help for Smokers to Quit national preventive health target. In Nelson, which I visited earlier today, they have reached the 90 percent target, which is an incredible increase from just 14 percent 2 years ago. The Government has also passed an unprecedented 30 percent increase in tobacco tax, and Quitline is reporting record numbers of calls and quit attempts\u2014up 50 percent since the tobacco tax was introduced. We have backed up this effort with massively improved access to smoking cessation treatments\u2014up 82 percent in 18 months. This Government is taking practical and effective steps to prevent and discourage smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549116e698a04ebda8da1ef3cac0d582\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Patrick Basham, who during his visit sponsored by tobacco corporate Philip Morris criticised New Zealand\u2019s support of plain packaging; if so, will the Government give in to the cancer conspirators, who seek to slow down the remarkable progress achieved in this term in making New Zealand smoke-free, particularly through the leadership of M\u0101ori Party Minister Tariana Turia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c111ea1da3494452b863c1e9aee2a429\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree with those comments from Mr Basham, but I do agree with the information outlined in a recent New Zealand Medical Journal article that demonstrates that plain packaging has two main benefits for public health: it removes or minimises brand elements that promote the product, and it facilitates more effective, dissuasive packaging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd9fa23bfb0041dcab0578e981d6b329\u0022\u003EFonterra\u2014Meetings with Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc7f59f495fd4bf9bf8da4306744fbb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc7f59f495fd4bf9bf8da4306744fbb3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Has he met with Fonterra in his capacity as Prime Minister in the last month; and if so, what undertakings, if any, did he give them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00224c5c7e8ff0fb4c358b1b78d99444b762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c5c7e8ff0fb4c358b1b78d99444b762\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I met with Fonterra on 8 August. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss Trading Among Farmers\u2014TAF. Fonterra was advised that the Government remains committed to progressing legislation to allow Trading Among Farmers as long as various public policy concerns were addressed to the Government\u2019s satisfaction. It was also made clear to Fonterra that this was unlikely to happen before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ecf37fb476645debf7644f5f9359588\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister gave an undertaking to Fonterra that legislation to allow Trading Among Farmers was on schedule for early next year, did he say that that was subject to the completion of all of the inquiries; if so, why did he say \u201Cearly next year\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e045c98b944dc38e60fe952250c034\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot recall that particular part of it. In looking at the notes, I do know that the issue of inquiries was raised, because the Minister of Agriculture made it clear during the meeting with Fonterra that the Government would be supporting the Commerce Committee\u2019s inquiry into milk pricing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e36f06c657435a905493e11a61dc38\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the price of milk is central to changes to allow Trading Among Farmers; if so, why would he give an assurance to Fonterra that legislation would be scheduled for early next year, before current investigations into milk pricing are complete, or is the Government not serious about those inquiries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f003ad823e8e4e81a04a7da0183df126\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are, but the issue, I think, is in relation to farm-gate pricing. The Ministers who were present at the meeting said to Fonterra that the Government wanted to ensure that there was a robust, dynamic, and enduring regime for the setting of Fonterra\u2019s farm-gate milk price. That concern existed irrespective of Trading Among Farmers, and that was why the interdepartmental work was taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c26cd8b3c4496cbf4db13826e04e49\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What did he say to convince Sir Henry van der Heyden that he had done the right thing in not trying to push Trading Among Farmers through in the lead-up to the election, and was it related to Fonterra\u2019s decision to freeze the price of milk until after the election, or that the select committee inquiry would be stalled as long as possible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc3f297dca74f9996959c601c077700\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, the issue is House time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f2484ba9c24be89a0a0a508d446187\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Has he discussed Trading Among Farmers with NZX Chief Executive Officer, Mark Weldon; if so, what undertaking has he given him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223426e089e3014b468d150f84c9b9be4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not recall any discussions with Mark Weldon about that, certainly not in the last year or so. Certainly in previous times I have said to him that it would be great to have Fonterra as a listed company, but that is my own view in the sense that I think Fonterra needs to raise more capital if it wants to be a global player of significance and size.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022412eaf899972453f98249c03e4a395d2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an email from Henry van der Heyden dated 12 August 2011 reporting on a good meeting with the Prime Minister, saying that for legislation for Trading Among Farmers early next year was on schedule, and that he was convinced the right thing was done in not trying to push it through in the lead-up to the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022087247ed51ee4512a1a8194e527f7b84\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fed381fa94a44c4805e96388eca7529\u0022\u003EPrisons\u2014Smoking Ban\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e41a0ac0516a4aa9bda895496601593d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e41a0ac0516a4aa9bda895496601593d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What reports has she received on the implementation of the smoking ban in New Zealand prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225ab5364b7fe74a74bbb9f525d1b86bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ab5364b7fe74a74bbb9f525d1b86bbc\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to advise that all New Zealand prisons have successfully been smoke-free for 6 weeks. This is the result of careful planning and 12 months\u2019 hard work by corrections staff, supported by the Ministry of Health and Quitline. There has been a noticeable improvement in air quality within prison units. There has also been a 77 percent reduction in the number of fires and arson-related incidents. There were only four such incidents in July, compared with 18 in the month prior to the ban. I would like to congratulate the Department of Corrections on the successful implementation of the new policy, which is making our prisons a much safer and healthier place in which to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cf861c13b04cbb8353299f1afeb374\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What other results has her department seen from the introduction of smoke-free prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7452a2adb04654896b526a952db3ef\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: In working closely with prisoners to prepare them for the change, staff have noticed an overall improvement in prisoner attitude and conduct. There have also been reports of prisoners actively encouraging their family and friends in the community to quit smoking. The successful implementation of the ban has attracted significant interest from overseas jurisdictions, particularly from Australian states that are keen to learn from our experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8074706849d4d8098a47bcc569d0722\u0022\u003EBenefits, Eligibility\u2014Prime Minister\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceac24136d3a44dcbab1f9a7eafebfe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceac24136d3a44dcbab1f9a7eafebfe0\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his reported statement that it could be fraudulent to apply for a benefit if you were not eligible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002281e109935d3344d589796a7a5774ecd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e109935d3344d589796a7a5774ecd6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I think the member misquotes what was said. I said that it could be a fraud to lie about a benefit qualification, but people wanting information about the matter should take that up with the Minister\u2019s office\u2014and I invite the member to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265f4de0c51c846449d33c965ea2cddaa\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: What steps does he consider a person uncertain of their eligibility for a benefit should take before making an application, to ensure they do not risk being charged with fraud?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d68537511046dab5e239b2ea3a617b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: They should contact a Work and Income office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76d62c882f4472e83744b6d596e4ecf\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that any citizen has the right to apply for a benefit, and that his comments on potential fraud will intimidate vulnerable people who need support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022443aaa6b39f94348b32def6b39e44a22\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f40ef581df41d69303d312f1c26223\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: What survival advice can he offer people with literacy issues and mental health conditions that cause them to struggle to prove eligibility for the unemployment benefit, which beneficiary advocates advise me is leading to homelessness and hunger?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3ca47c4d914b698a2b402b3657892a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The country has Work and Income offices scattered right throughout it. They are filled with people who work very hard to make sure that people get the benefits that they are entitled to. Any New Zealander who thinks they are entitled to a benefit and who needs help should contact a Work and Income office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd89f0bdf434914a7c58f370c9599f2\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the High Court judgment Stemson v Police, dated 19 December 2001, which affirms the right of any person to make an application for a benefit and the duty of Work and Income to facilitate rather than impede that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7e43b52ddc46c2b1c12f25618c7e73\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Clarification is being sought. The document is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ce7b8c5a024437b9ad364aad809167\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: A High Court decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203e3575b1d145729304f36a92bf5dc2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But where is the document from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f49a2af9691488cba49f49132f3b78e\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: It is from the website\u2014from the High Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8f18c1a52614481b6890b199f892156\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is on a website from the High Court. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211d2cc18cf5a4448b7f07593dee8d7f9\u0022\u003EAdult and Community Education\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc48b46098cf4225bb82f69fd5e11520\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc48b46098cf4225bb82f69fd5e11520\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: How many schools received government funding for Adult and Community Education classes in 2009, and how many schools are receiving government funding for Adult and Community Education programmes in 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022998fbd7390424511aeb3826757a55760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022998fbd7390424511aeb3826757a55760\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E Forty-nine schools currently receive taxpayer-funded ACE\u2014adult and community education. They are made up of 23 schools funded directly, and a further 26 that partner with those directly funded schools. Of course, many other schools continue to offer hobby courses on a user-pays basis. Before the Government\u2019s reprioritising of taxpayer-funded adult and community education to target foundation schools including literacy, numeracy, English language, te reo M\u0101ori, and sign language, there were 212 funded schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ef36413886406a9023e177521887f8\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think people in Northland, with some of the country\u2019s highest unemployment, are being afforded an adequate opportunity to upskill, given that there is now just one school providing adult and community education where there used to be 12?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f287c1ca28b47fc937efbe31c786643\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I should point out to the member that there is a range of ways in which people can access foundation education in New Zealand, and, yes, schools\u2019 adult and community education is one. We also have adult and community education in 27 tertiary education institutions, 24 community groups, seven OTEPS\u2014other tertiary education providers\u2014and two REAPs, or Rural Education Activities Programmes. We also have foundation education, where we have increased embedded literacy and numeracy from 15,000 places to 70,000 places; we have Youth Guarantee, where there are 2,500 places, which will go to 7,500 next year; and we also have trades academies and service academies\u2014to name just a few opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abbbce5ab2954631b66cc216ffb05d74\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he consider restoring the $13 million pulled out of adult and community education funding, to enable the 165,000 New Zealanders who, according to Adult and Community Education Aotearoa, were forced to leave school and community classes to return to classes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b0388dc916e4d1ab2669e2406149db3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Government does not have plans to restore that funding, because, as we know, there are many challenges for Government finances at this time. Of course, the Labour Opposition can add it to their long list of restarting funding things they are going to do by borrowing more money. But I point out that a number of schools are offering adult and community education without any funding whatsoever. For example, Western Springs College is offering, amongst other things, the fabled Moroccan cooking class and Spanish tapas; Rangiora High School is teaching patchwork and botanical drawing, and all these\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287b2aa9eaede452d9fb40f16a468eaf7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we have heard sufficient of that answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c183c08d884dfda59ff172c0d5bdfb\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that Mandarin courses provided by Mana College or sign language courses provided by Tikipunga High School, Rutherford College, Kelston Boys High School, Tauranga Boys College, and Tauranga Girls College before funding cuts were introduced are hobby classes and poor value for money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285dac4c3a20b4d558f2ca72d90e94cae\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has prioritised its funding, as the member knows, to languages, literacy, numeracy, and ESOL\u2014English for speakers of other languages\u2014and then those funds are allocated by the Tertiary Education Commission based on funding applications. I do not believe taxpayers should be funding woodwork courses and beginners guitar courses, and that is what we have stopped funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed2ada58f8542da9bbc2bcf0e313082\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da684ea8c56b475f8433280638af3b61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite David Shearer to repeat his question. I have been concerned about a couple of the answers. The Minister may not have the particular information that was being sought, but the questions were pretty straight questions relating to some sign language programmes in certain schools, and nothing to do with woodwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7d592fbdfba4635afa837a7682d8f18\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b279ae2861724293aca77aeee94810d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Minister briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ada90c054c41dd90b818136ab783dc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The point I was trying to make was to outline for the member the Government\u2019s funding approach, which is to fund certain types of courses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285373678e3b049c29f9f11831efe4d89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard sufficient. That is all very well, but actually this is question time, where certain questions are asked and answers to them are expected. While there may be points the Minister wishes to make, if they do not relate to the question asked, then they are not relevant to that question. I would have no problem with the Minister going on to include more information if the question had been answered, but I am not sure the question was. I accept I could be wrong here, and to avoid any further problem from my being wrong, I will invite the member to repeat the question. If this was an isolated question I would not be doing this, but there was an earlier supplementary question about specific programmes at schools in Northland; it may well be that the Minister did not have information on them, but the answer did not relate a great deal to schools in Northland. That is why I am inviting the member to repeat his question at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2b629bda9464fab8fffb701c21638f1\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that Mandarin courses provided by Mana College or sign language courses provided by Tikipunga High School, Rutherford College, Kelston Boys High School, Tauranga Boys College, and Tauranga Girls College before funding cuts were introduced are hobby classes and poor value for money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec42810512034287aa9a2a817ff620db\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The point, as I was saying to the member before, is that I do not have an opinion, obviously, on those individual courses, because I am not privy to them in particular, but the Government\u2019s role is to set policy in relation to what it is prepared to fund, and it is prepared to fund language courses, English for speakers of other languages courses, and also literacy and numeracy courses. It is then for the Tertiary Education Commission to take a decision as to which courses it funds, and those schools apply for them. I think that is an entirely correct approach. I went on to say that the Government does not believe that it should fund hobby courses, and I listed some examples of what it does not believe it should fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d06ac70c0254ff78d41e90c843e1fea\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister believe is better value for money: $116 to fund someone\u2019s enrolment in an adult and community education course at a school or community organisation, or $116 to buy 3 millimetres of tarmac on his \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea52b3234a642cab2a0384a759d312f\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: That is hardly worth a response to the member, except I would point out again the following: the Government spends massive amounts, as it should do, on improving literacy and numeracy in this country, including foundation courses, trade academies, service academies, Youth Guarantee, and 16,600 more core places in universities and polytechnics, and I back this Government\u2019s record in improving adult literacy and numeracy in this country well ahead of the previous Government\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a24fadbb8648429fb9a06433708861dc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022550515ad93814e1f8437c2985639aeb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022550515ad93814e1f8437c2985639aeb6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I want to correct an answer I gave earlier, to clear up any potential misunderstanding. I seek leave to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022814473325e144167b53a4a3a94b88f3c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation to correct an answer. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d12ca4aa3cc248628e9c028751c3dfa4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: In question No. 1, Phil Goff asked me whether I stood by my claim that 60 percent of young people not in education, employment, or training are actually in school or university. I have never made that claim, and I did not make that claim yesterday. I interpreted his question as relating to the number I gave yesterday in respect of unemployed young people, whom we were talking about yesterday. So of course it is the case that young people not in education, employment, or training are not in education, by definition. I have never made that claim. What I said, and what is correct and true, is that 60 percent of unemployed people in the household labour force survey aged 15 to 19 are at school or at university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a215cfe9d3e942c6a0f42c02bbfe0c12\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Youth Opportunities Package\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022256cf814c2884370951cf3bf9a6c4509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022256cf814c2884370951cf3bf9a6c4509\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister for Social Development and Employment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c149cc7a59d455291866b67b7ad8f0d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to be able to hear the honourable member asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc6ee42142984e99b291ec7590d6b486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc6ee42142984e99b291ec7590d6b486\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Why, despite spending $160 million on the Youth Opportunities package, has the unemployment rate for 15 to 19 year olds increased since she became Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5e52fbe2fd84bc4b49e98f6b3d75753\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5e52fbe2fd84bc4b49e98f6b3d75753\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The $160 million for the Youth Opportunities package was aimed at 18 to 24-year-olds, in particular. Job placements through Job Ops, Community Max, industry partnerships, and Youth Guarantee were particularly for those who were on the unemployment benefit and aged 18 to 24. It is clear that that has worked. We have seen a decrease in the number of 18 to 24-year-olds on the unemployment benefit, from a peak of 23,800 in January 2010 to about 16,500 now in June. We have seen the number of 18 to 24-year-olds come down in the last 18 months, and that is due mainly to the sort of package that has gone in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53b367359f0487182c40a2619feb5fb\u0022\u003EHon Sir Roger Douglas\u003C/span\u003E: Given that youth unemployment has hit the roof since youth rates were abolished, as is obvious in this chart here, which demonstrates when youth rates were abolished and how the youth unemployment rate has gone up, when will she act\u2014when it goes through the roof or when it hits the sky?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acaaf4e4eb2140d797f1637348090bcc\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As I said to the member, we have been concentrating on those who are 18 to 24. We would like to see 16 and 17-year-olds in education or training, hence the attention we have given them. What the member might like to look at, though\u2014and this is quite interesting\u2014is that the unemployment rate for 16 and 17-year-olds from June 2010 went from 28.5 percent to 33.6 percent, so we have seen a dramatic increase in the rate for 16 and 17-year-olds. However, the number of 18 to 19-year-olds has been static from June 2010 to June 2011, at 20.7 percent. So there is most definitely a difference between the 16 and 17-year-olds and the 18 and 19-year-olds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022883b85a9aee749f9940139d705e41e8b\u0022\u003EHon Sir Roger Douglas\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister confirm that the reason she has not acted is that last week\u2019s National polling showed that it is more popular for her to keep sitting on her hands than actually doing what is right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fa7898668f043d08a9a2ac1f6070373\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I shall not go to that member\u2019s level of personal sort of attack, but I will say that there has been a real focus on unemployed people in New Zealand. We have seen that kind of work going on as far as those Youth Opportunities are concerned. You know, we are seeing that 90 percent of those who have done a Job Ops programme have not gone back on a benefit, and that is most certainly a step ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238a4c2b2584467c970fbfc05607f0cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Hon Sir Roger Douglas, I do not want to be unfair, but I say to the Labour front bench that I just wish you could see yourselves. That was so discourteous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c175ee36886241cab4db65bd395629e9\u0022\u003EHon Sir Roger Douglas\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister appears unable to see the link between the abolition of youth rates, and youth unemployment, as shown on this graph, could she advise whether this is caused by the fact that she truly does not understand the link between the two or by deliberate blindness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3765972259444d8c22354b45fe512c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223232fb16416e48f8bb2e98f78055c1cb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Far be it from me to be the one who protects the Government, but I think you recently ruled out as not being appropriate supplementary questions things that had far less assumption and a lot less irony in them than that did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273d462e7ecb647f7919665f0baf8b8ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point I would make is that I have not actually ruled them out; I have normally let the Minister deal with them, but if the questioner appeals to me for assistance, I normally point out that the question was actually not in order. But I would rather not deprive the Minister of the opportunity to utilise such a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e1dc950c50417f99f29ce341934cb3\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has put a huge investment into working with those young people who are on the unemployment benefit and who really felt the effects of the global recession and a tight labour market. We are seeing positive results from that. We have fewer 18 to 24-year-olds on the unemployment benefit than we had 18 months ago. What we are doing is working. We now need to concentrate more on those 16 and 17-year-old \u201Cneets\u201D\u2014hence the weekend\u2019s package\u2014and, as I say, we are cautiously optimistic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceac26eebef34e368c111638c272297d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Far be it from me to relitigate in my current circumstances, but yesterday you ruled out a question when there was a suggestion that a Minister lacked confidence. You intervened yourself. On this occasion there was an intervention when a Minister was accused of being deliberately blind or similar and you did not intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a536c8d842e24d9ab6b4ec887a0a0347\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Hon Simon Power, the Acting Leader of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226105c17b90e74f6caff6fa8c625cc2e3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Just a point of clarification. If the member is referring to his own interjection yesterday\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220584b0b978c49b7a7ff5531d73ba215\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014Annette\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c00633eaafa14d739dadf5bf6dd01be0\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I misunderstood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220678b6b2973a41428f04c67e9db2caf9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I have done that, I apologise to the member\u2014if I have been inconsistent. I will normally rule out only part of a question. If I recollect correctly, it may have been only part of a question. But I normally do that only if it is pretty highly offensive. I did not think that was too highly offensive. I allowed a question today\u2014I did not rule out a question today\u2014from the member\u2019s own leader, when he suggested that a Minister was conning the public. I did not rule that out, yet it is out of order, obviously. But I do not want to be intervening all the time, so unless it is highly offensive, I tend not to rule them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208267eaec9c64859921ad9ccc254bce0\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to ask a question of the Hon Sir Roger Douglas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f796ce4a5b474df6a1fa019906512324\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to ask, a member, a question to a member. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e81cd09a0924240b5d94477a9cc596c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Defence Force\u2014Ammunition and Explosive Storage Facilities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u002299ed4b029dc146679cbcc400ccea05ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ed4b029dc146679cbcc400ccea05ad\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Why has he not provided substantive answers to Questions for Written Answer 6098 to 6102 (2011)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002213b1063611dd419eae5e988f8751f5f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213b1063611dd419eae5e988f8751f5f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E As the member knows, I have provided an interim answer. The questions asked for a range of information, particularly around the issues of investigating potential or historic environmental damage, which has taken a bit of time to get. The information has been provided and the substantive answers will be given this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c472f01805f4912a2505ed064110f43\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the theft of ammunition from a Defence Force depot poses a serious threat to public safety, and that he, as Minister, should be prepared to answer questions on the security of ammunition storage within expected time frames; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ffdc995ab84e039bb8ab964a18a47e\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I am prepared. In fact, I advise the member that I am meeting the Chief of Defence Force this afternoon with the member of Parliament for Northcote, in whose electorate the Kauri Point facility is located, with the intention of looking at an improved plan relating to security and also to the environmental protection of the ammunition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299738b4008064e0bb6a3e4964a8b3bf2\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document titled the Mapp Report, which shows that Dr Wayne Mapp first became aware of security issues at Kauri Point before 16 May 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f038d8c65224606a7721fe64e0ef2b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a new one\u2014a member\u2019s newsletter being tabled\u2014but I will seek leave of the House. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64133515af84a31bc861f794dc204dd\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when he has known for some time that there were security issues with the storage of ammunition, did he do nothing about it, and then refuse to answer questions when the safety of his own constituents was put at risk by a security breach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a5458b5b0d439ba87eb36bf22f418b\u0022\u003EHon Dr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member on the first point that the safety of the ammunition per se is not actually at risk, but there is clearly a need to upgrade security. There is a new management plan in place, and I am meeting the Chief of Defence Force this afternoon to essentially take this whole issue forward to improve security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e451f7ee9424b31b3b3cbfe7eedad4b\u0022\u003EBorder Control\u2014SmartGate System\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002285b55ec5744e457a8973636c8683e3aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285b55ec5744e457a8973636c8683e3aa\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a677093c0a405eb6758e3c22b6b4b7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have called Nikki Kaye, and I want to hear the member at the back of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022315f5a4d85d3433c994f241dd19b766f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022315f5a4d85d3433c994f241dd19b766f\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Customs: What reports has he received into the integration of SmartGate between New Zealand and Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022687fd197541b454ea0b08cf06004fbef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022687fd197541b454ea0b08cf06004fbef\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E Just another wonderful milestone in the ongoing saga of the roll-out of SmartGate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6782bc7b4049aea81305b3c5fab0a9\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: More good news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a5c9457ac048a981812bcaeec88c68\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: More good news indeed. Last month, in cooperation with the Australian Government, we began trialling the use of SmartGate between one city pair\u2014that is, between Auckland and the Gold Coast airport at Coolangatta. For the first time, eligible passengers will be able to bypass SmartGate kiosks at the Gold Coast and go straight to the gate, if they use SmartGate in New Zealand, and vice versa. It will cut out one whole piece of the process. The trial will run for while, and then it is our intention to implement it right across all of the gates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220703ecf73a2b4469a6ad1734f1465d92\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of the SmartGate trial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a7fa8977f34ff1a0d997f4cdd06100\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: They come under the \u201Cbetter, cheaper, faster\u201D heading that Tony Ryall is always\u2014[Interruption]\u2014\u201Cbetter, sooner, more convenient\u201D heading that Tony Ryall wants. So far 1.5 million people have used SmartGate. After Budget 2011 gave us six additional gates\u2014and they are being rolled out over the Rugby World Cup period\u2014we will have 22 gates operational in New Zealand, which is spectacular. The passenger response we are getting from emails is that it could not get any better. The processing time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa59191fa3e24779ba76c72c980c6fde\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Mapp Report say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c396ef2f5747179d670903aaae588e\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Mapp Report is very complimentary as well. It always is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237e654c41f684a40befcd8a78a9cc5aa\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022835584dd667d41e5b54fbd2ef900be9a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000528\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4813f1e45e54f2f9d04ec34bbb894c3\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary matters, loan advances, and New Zealand-based and overseas-based borrowers (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b6c554757ca4567b8f31e0f580ed936\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a31587136da04a0ab684f4e994d26d74\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repayment obligations of borrowers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022db387162d71c4e8ea972cf0c76297f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db387162d71c4e8ea972cf0c76297f12\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise members that this is a debate on clauses 25 to 109, and it also includes debate on schedules 2 through to 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002288218ed9a0e74b86ae469454ea0f235f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288218ed9a0e74b86ae469454ea0f235f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will raise some questions about exactly those clauses that you have helpfully outlined for the Committee, which we are looking at now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946ca2cc40d6443782f5370dd84ab27c\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Is that Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f971c5cdf19b435191559491ea09d555\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is Part 2, I say to Ms Dyson; yes, it is. I have a question for the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, and I hope he will answer this one, because it is a genuine question. In the first reading and during the select committee process on the Student Loan Scheme Bill a number of concerns were raised about the change in assessment for people who earn money while they are on the student loan scheme, in terms of what they have to pay back. I was not on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but my reading is that a number of those concerns have been dealt with in the changes that have been made to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn particular, when we look at clause 48, we see that there is now a change to the definitions relating to the exemptions for full-time students. As I read the change in clause 48, essentially it is trying to say that if a student works intensively in a holiday period and, at that point, earns more than the repayment threshold, which currently would be $367 per week, then returns to being a student, they will be assessed on their whole year\u2019s income rather than the period in which they earned that money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat change would resolve a significant concern raised by a number of people in the process of this bill coming to the House, which was that there would effectively be a penalty on people who were trying to earn some money during their holiday period rather than having to work extensively through term time. Of course, as many members of the Committee will know, people\u2019s studies are potentially put at risk if they have to work too many part-time hours. As I think I noted in an earlier intervention, the commentary on the bill also talks about the fact that it may lead to people unnecessarily borrowing money. That is a different way of looking at the same concern, so I am just seeking the Minister\u2019s guidance on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ERelated to that issue, I ask whether the changes that have been made in clause 76, and which go on from there, address the concerns that were raised about whether moving from a full-year assessment to a pay-period assessment will penalise people who earn small amounts of money but then, perhaps in blocks, earn larger amounts of money. I ask whether they will then end up having to pay money back, when in fact their total income will not reach the $19,000 figure. That is the specific question that I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00223683e5886f324b2e9dce7b08d5fb2816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223683e5886f324b2e9dce7b08d5fb2816\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I was not expecting there to be such a short call on this part. Can I simply respond very quickly to the points the member has made. I simply answer yes in respect of both clauses. The position with regard to the changes introduced in clause 48 is that if, within that period, borrowers are above the $367 threshold, then the member\u2019s interpretation is absolutely correct, but with the proviso that of course they do not breach the $19,084 threshold. The provisions that follow from clause 76 merely give effect to that. So the short answer to his question, on both counts, is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d29853a270e47dab57f8de42c0bf5b3\u0022\u003EPart 3  Excess repayments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a93fd305df4c93bbabf42f7e07ff5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a93fd305df4c93bbabf42f7e07ff5f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a very brief call on Part 3, and hopefully the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, will be able to respond. This part is about the issue of excess repayments, which we touched on in Part 1. I am pleased to see that there will be some clarity around this point. As someone who overpaid her student loan, I am pleased to see that there is an obligation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b5b435f1f874a4ba456eb2d1d0fd000\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: A donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f5a772746b4ac296a36dea8437330e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014trust me, I say to Mr Quinn, it was not a donation\u2014in Part 3 on the Inland Revenue Department to contact student loan holders and inform them that they have met their obligations under the student loan scheme. In my particular case, I felt that perhaps I had reached the point where I might have paid back my loan. I rang the Inland Revenue Department to find out the status of my loan, only to be told that I had overpaid it by about $1,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI have a question for the Minister. In the past, particularly when I have done my income tax returns, if I have owed the Inland Revenue Department money the department has wanted it on very short notice. In fact, it has been quite tight time frames within which I needed to meet my obligations to the Inland Revenue Department to make sure that I paid any tax that was underpaid. It took 4 or 5 months to get back from the Inland Revenue Department the money that I had overpaid on my student loan. In fact, the department got quite snippy with me when I asked whether the money could possibly be paid back earlier. We heard from my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway earlier in the debate, who also said that recently, just this year, he paid back his student loan. He found out that he had overpaid it by about $500. When he asked when he could have his money back, he was told: \u201CWell, not at least until October.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI understand the Inland Revenue Department is a very busy department, but it seems to me that for its own credibility, when it comes down very firm and very hard on people who owe the department money, that perhaps when the opposite case is true\u2014in my case the department had not even informed me that I had met my obligations, that I had overpaid my student loan, and that I could stop paying\u2014it would seem nice if it was reciprocal and the Inland Revenue Department was as speedy in returning money to people who have overpaid as it is with people who have underpaid. I think the Minister now has an answer, so I am happy to sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00224544913b68e94482912695c897f6d9b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224544913b68e94482912695c897f6d9b0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to deter the Committee unduly, but I am comfortable answering very quick questions if we are to proceed in this manner. In response to the member\u2019s question, the short answer is that from the time that the excess payment has been identified, the Inland Revenue Department has a 6-month period within which to negotiate with the borrower about whether the money is to be offset or repaid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs to the point that is behind the question, which is whether that means that the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s determination to seek payment is matched by an equal determination to make payment, I can simply advise the member that it is a \u201Cbest endeavours\u201D situation from the point that a settlement is reached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b79132e47b249589d5fd457b60c1f39\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a148ed5c4994550aea3c3946073a171\u0022\u003EPart 5  Matters of general application and miscellaneous matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00225e05fdf2a3574bc782053b059308bb32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e05fdf2a3574bc782053b059308bb32\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise members that debate is on clauses 181 to 218, and also includes debate on schedules 5 to 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002211ccb4a96e7a4b318e0d20e8ea0023e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211ccb4a96e7a4b318e0d20e8ea0023e9\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Part 5 begins with clause 181, as you have so accurately stated for the Committee, Mr Chair. It is a clause rewritten by the select committee, but essentially it introduces the new $40 administration fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEarlier in the debate some members across the Chamber asked what difference $40 makes. It does make a difference, because it is a new fee being included in the student loan scheme. It means it has to be paid back. This is a new fee. It is something the Government is introducing, and there needs to be a reason for introducing it. What we seem to see when we look at the regulatory impact statement, and when we look at the bill and the justification for it, is that there is not a justification for a new administration fee for the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe are told that the good changes that we have all approved in Part 1 to provide for electronic arrangements for communication, more transparency about loan balances, and a better ability to communicate loan balances will save money. More loan repayments will be made as a result of the changes in this bill, and that is a good thing. We have also learnt that a new computer system is on the way, and that it will enable better, easier, and faster processing of matters related to student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIf we put those two things together, why does a new administration fee need to be introduced? I do not think the reasoning stacks up, which is why it is easy for us on this side of the Chamber to become suspicious that this is effectively the beginning of interest by stealth on student loans. We know that National does not believe that student loans should be interest-free. Those of us who campaigned at the 2005 election will all remember the attitude of the National Party at that time to interest-free student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn this House, John Key, who was not then the leader of the National Party, but I think possibly the finance spokesperson at the time, said that he would oppose interest-free student loans with every bone in his body. The bones have shattered, have they not? The bones were weak. Calcium deficiency in those bones\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8bc8d3a426a40d6b72905f83f365d92\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing wrong with having shattered bones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07c4234ed4244a79c8679968234fd7b\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is true, I say to Mr Mallard. It is how one recovers from it, I say to Mr Mallard; that is what it is. Unfortunately in the case of National members they have simply decided, for political reasons, to stick with the interest-free student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESince National came into office in 2008, we have seen that its members bridle against that. Steven Joyce and John Key have both bridled against it, saying that the policy of interest-free student loans does not make any sense. Steven Joyce has had officials desperately looking for ways they can\u2014to quote him\u2014\u201Cdampen demand for tertiary education\u201D. What a ridiculous notion that is. It is being done through changes around the fringes of the student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned earlier in this debate, for instance, the most recent of those changes is not allowing people over 55 years of age to borrow the living component of the student loan. I have had two people in my electorate office in recent times with concerns about the fact that they will not be able to retrain, having gone out of the workforce in their 50s, because they will not have access to that support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThose are the changes that have been made by this National Government around the student loan scheme, but it cannot get to the interest-free part, which is the bit it really wants to get to. So in clause 181 we have the replacement for that\u2014the $40 fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is one good thing. It should be noted that under clause 181(2), if one is already paying the establishment fee\u2014that is, in the first year one sets up one\u2019s loan\u2014one will not have to pay the $40 fee. Well, that is great. In the first year one gets away with just $60, but from the second year, wherever one is, it is effectively $100. It is effectively $100, when one adds the $60 and the $40. So borrowers are now being charged $100 for the management of their loan accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a new fee. I do not believe the Government has justified it sufficiently. I think that the evidence that came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee in fact shows that it is not necessary to introduce this new $40 fee under clause 181. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe that it is a revenue grab. It does not make sense alongside the increased repayments that are expected to come in from this bill, and it does not make sense alongside the savings that are meant to come in terms of efficiencies in other parts of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u002283313336a0214c2bb46608db0497e907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283313336a0214c2bb46608db0497e907\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from Grant Robertson and suggest why this extra money is being levied on students. As I was reading through the Student Loan Scheme Bill I realised that the implementation obviously depends on a very effective computer system\u2014a computer system that is able to do all the things that we have been mentioning in the Chamber up until now. Well, there have been some problems with the computer system, and I would like the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, to comment on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EFrom my understanding, $35 million was allocated by Cabinet to upgrade the computer system. We have spent, as I understand it, $21 million out of that $35 million on an Oracle-based system, and that system now seems to not be working, or not be adequate. I quote from an industry magazine, Computerworld: the \u201Cdeputy commissioner of business transformation, says it became apparent during the design phase that extracting the loan history and migrating data from the old system to the new system was more complex and time-consuming than expected. \u2026 we have spent $21 million out of $35 million allocated by Cabinet,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBasically, we have gone to the \u201CRolls-Royce\u201D, gold-plated computer system, and it simply has not worked. I put a written question to Peter Dunne asking whether that was, in fact, the case. Mr Dunne replied that the department has gone back to the future inland revenue systems and technology (FIRST computer system), which is the old system of computing. He said: \u201CInland Revenue is delivering changes to Student Loans through FIRST rather than an Oracle-based system.\u201D We spent $21 million on the Oracle system. That now seems not to have been money well spent; it has not delivered the outcomes that we wanted. We have gone back to the old FIRST computer system. I quote again from the Computerworld magazine: \u201CAlthough this approach\u201D\u2014the Oracle-based system\u2014\u201Chas been abandoned, \u2018the long-term plan is still to move eventually away from FIRST, which is now more than 20 years old \u2026 Work done on FIRST in recent years, along with planned modifications, means we are confident it will perform \u2026\u2019 \u201D but will be eventually replaced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe have now spent on Oracle $21 million out of $35 million that has been allocated by Cabinet to upgrade the computer system so it can do all the things we have been talking about in this bill. We have spent that $21 million. We have now found that the Oracle system will not work, so we have gone back to an older system, the FIRST computer system. But we know that the FIRST computer system will be inadequate into the future, and we will have to upgrade it. My question really is about what is going on here. It seems to me that $21 million of taxpayers\u2019 money has been squandered on a new computer system yet again. We have had all sorts of problems with computer systems, and $21 million\u2014as I think you will appreciate, Mr Chair\u2014is a lot of money to waste, or, certainly, to have not fulfilled the computing needs of the student loan system in relation to moving it into the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to take a call on this and explain what exactly has happened to the $21 million, what has happened to the Oracle system, why we are back again on the FIRST computer system, which we consider an old system, and what the plan is for the future so that we can have some confidence that all the changes that we are supporting in this bill might, in fact, be allowed to go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e34c6897358349aa8e5ffeb6ba1feaf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e34c6897358349aa8e5ffeb6ba1feaf6\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I propose to take just a shortish call on the Student Loan Scheme Bill and follow on from some of the comments and questions raised by my colleague Grant Robertson in respect of clause 181 and the issue of the new administration fee\u2014the annual administration fee\u2014of $40, which, as we have noted, comes on top of the $60 establishment fee. So obviously there is a $100 cost to students or former students for their loans in an environment where the Government was absolutely determined, it seemed, to not be seen to be putting interest charges on student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe question I wanted to ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, is this. Clause 181(1) says that \u201CIf a borrower has a loan balance of $20 or more on the close of 31 March in a tax year,\u2014(a) an annual administration fee of $40 (or any other amount prescribed by regulations) must be charged by the Commissioner \u2026\u201D. I am seeking from the Minister some assurance. It has been known for fees like this to come in at that kind of level and then increase. Obviously we have the situation, as mentioned, where students have, effectively, a $100 cost for their student loans as a result of the establishment fee and, now, the annual administration fee. And, of course, we are well aware of changes in the Budget for students over 55 years that preclude them from student loans. So a cumulative cost is what I am concerned about, and I would like the Minister\u2019s assurance that that fee\u2014as opposed as we are to it at $40\u2014will not be increased by executive fiat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002265cbb065e06f462091f7b59e7d96eeb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265cbb065e06f462091f7b59e7d96eeb7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E There are two streams of argument that I will respond to. The first relates to the $40 fee. I need to correct Mr Burns immediately. We are not talking about a cumulative fee of $100. There is a one-off $60 charge for the establishment of a loan, and an annual charge thereafter of $40 for the ongoing administration of the loan. The borrower will pay $60 in year 1\u2014that is $60\u2014and $40 in subsequent years. A borrower cannot get a cumulative cost of $100 in 1 year, which is what the member claimed, and there is no way one can twist the argument to present that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me come to the point that Mr Burns raised about the wording of clause 181(1)(a) of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. Does this mean that there is some hidden agenda to increase that charge? The short answer to that is no. We have simply set that figure in there as a reasonable administration cost, bearing a relationship to the establishment cost of $60. If we were intending to have a higher figure, we would have said so, frankly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me now come to the question that Mr Shearer raised, because I think it is important to put on record exactly what is happening with the computer system. This will be somewhat of an ongoing theme, not just in this bill but also in other tax legislation, over the next little while. The future inland revenue systems and technology (FIRST computer system) was instituted in 1991. It was seen as ground-breaking at that time. It has served us remarkably well in the last 20 years. But in that 20 years we have grafted on to it, in no particular order, student loans, KiwiSaver, child support, Working for Families, and one or two other initiatives as well. The consequence has been that a system that was set up for a very discrete purpose is now taking on a whole range of other activities, and that to get access to someone\u2019s data in respect of any one of those activities requires a translation through all of them. So it is complicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EDuring the term of the previous Government we began a project to refine the nature of our technology, if you like. We rejected then\u2014correctly, in my view\u2014the idea of a complete systems rebuild. The Canadians and the Australians are doing that. The experiences the member lamented in respect of national computer programs are being repeated in both those countries: they both have $1 billion - plus price tags now for the work that they are doing. So we decided that we would start with the student loan project because, firstly, it was discrete and, secondly, there was an off-the-shelf product available from Oracle that could be purchased and effectively implemented whilst the broader process of what the future might hold for the FIRST computer system was conducted. The thinking at that point was that we would do the student loan project. We would then move on to other discrete projects within the system and, over a period of time, migrate away from the FIRST computer system to the new system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBecause of the complexity of the FIRST computer system, which I described right at the beginning, what has happened in the subsequent period is that it has become clear that that initial objective was not able to be achieved as simply as we might have first imagined. I can assure the Committee that no money has been wasted. In fact, the transformation with regard to student loans will occur from 2013 onwards. The problem is simply this: when this bill came to the House with an implementation date of 1 April 2012, it was on the assumption that we would be able to move from the FIRST computer system by that time. I was faced with a decision earlier this year, around March or April from memory, as to whether we pushed the implementation of this entire bill out to 2013, which would be contrary to the assurances we had given, or to see whether we could proceed to a certain extent within the FIRST computer system and then let a certain set of other changes in the bill take effect at a later date under the newer system. That is the option we have followed in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe will be utilising the FIRST computer system for a number of the changes as we migrate over in the next 2 to 3 years, then the new system will take effect. But we wanted to honour the commitment contained in the bill and in the discussion documents that preceded it about the need to give some clarity for the administration of student loans in the interim. This is not a project to be concerned about in the sense of whether it will all happen\u2014it will\u2014but the time frame is simply taking a little longer than we might first have imagined. That is a good thing in a way, because a lot of the issues that are being indentified through that will serve us well when we come to look at things like PAYE, GST, and various other aspects of the system, as well. I can assure the Committee that within the scope of the FIRST computer system we will be able to deliver what is in this bill by 2012, and the bulk of it will come as the system changes from 2013 and beyond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022905976a7a03a404b8231c15e4dea9ae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905976a7a03a404b8231c15e4dea9ae9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want this debate to end prematurely. The question I have was stimulated by the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue. Some of the memories\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221bbc0cb14974c8682e36a991e06441b\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Stimulated by the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af28ebc824db478f956f75ec6e38e9ca\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, it brings back memories, some of which are pleasant and some of which are unpleasant. They relate to the period in 2000 when there was a look at the possibility of integrating the Work and Income computer system and the Inland Revenue Department computer systems in order to make sure that people were getting entitlements, but also to make sure that they were not ending up with the sorts of bills that people were ending up with. I know that Working for Families has made some progress in that regard, and there are better ways for people to avoid those bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do not think the Minister was Minister of Revenue at the time\u2014I do not think he was in Government at the time\u2014but there was quite a lot of discussion then about the benefits of having a system that worked together across student loans, Working for Families, the Liable-parent Contribution Scheme, PAYE, and things in that area\u2014but not so much GST. There was discussion about getting a system that was integrated and worked well together. I think it fell down, probably, on the State Sector Act, and, in fact, on Christine Rankin standing on her rights as the chief executive of the Department of Work and Income to have a separate system. I think it is fairly well on the record that a major breakdown occurred in the relationship around that discussion, but it was too late, because Work and Income was required to get a new system, and the systems diverged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI just ask the Minister\u2014the Minister is doing good work in this area, and we are debating the charge, not the general process\u2014whether he is looking at going further and having a system that is effectively a Government income-relationship computer system, given the good work that he is doing with education, and whether it can be spread to the area of a more major challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ccf9ec618a4432a875464a5940c8e0f\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: In short, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022382ddc603871481499d223d6c76a825d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222564bdc6cd274cc0a14ba1b3d73c9704\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6b5c65dc6ec4ceba9e245cfa83b8208\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226664f43e4238421fb926ce59a2cfe3bd\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8d4f891589a4c1a8e037186c7c96aa0\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002211edb8d95bfa4f52a8fea205091af4ad\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2140e9b6b324c36b32fcc1705fdf3c4\u0022\u003ESchedule 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228b46dd01387470bb66893c78e566ec7\u0022\u003ESchedule 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd851f5f894745438f63d55fc8278457\u0022\u003ESchedule 6A agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239c5b7af177541ea852e8f78d5a4ecc4\u0022\u003ESchedule 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022695b95f0c93c49f9ad8d7609af4b5f07\u0022\u003ESchedule 8 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7386e7b33164e46a523d3ada9ddb59f\u0022\u003ESchedule 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002204099ec8c71449789efd30042107d382\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd42d6395814486d9b2945155a3a03e5\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000597\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000598\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220b24f83a8574477805ab0893a516ddc\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022b830141e5ca245eb98143c9c05f11031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b830141e5ca245eb98143c9c05f11031\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Student Loan Scheme Bill be now read a third time. The measures contained in this bill are designed to make it easier for borrowers to manage their loans and to pay back what they owe, which in turn will help the Government to better manage this substantial Crown asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe first of these measures sets the framework for consolidated loan information to be provided electronically to borrowers by the Inland Revenue Department. Borrowers will be able to access information on their loan balance and manage their repayment responsibilities wherever they are and at any time. This includes borrowers who are currently studying, so they will no longer have to contact two agencies for this information. In addition, the majority of borrowers with income from salary and wages only will benefit from reduced compliance costs as a result of the removal of the current annual end-of-year assessment. However, borrowers who have significantly overpaid their pay-period obligation will be able to apply for a refund. The result of these changes will be a simpler, more effective way for borrowers to self-manage their loan responsibilities, and a more efficient, cost-effective framework for the Inland Revenue Department to manage its interactions with all borrowers, in New Zealand and overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAt the same time, the bill recognises the importance of borrowers honouring their repayment obligations. To further encourage borrowers to take a responsible approach to their loan, the bill simplifies the current penalty rules that apply when borrowers fail to make loan repayments when they should, and strengthens the ability of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to recall a loan in cases of serious non-compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese are the main features of the bill. I would like at this point to acknowledge those whose efforts have contributed towards the successful passage of this legislation so far. I thank my officials and the drafters who have worked on the detail of the bill, and those who made submissions on the bill to help improve the practical application of the measures it contains. I thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee, too, for its consideration of the proposed reforms and its recommendations to give greater clarity to the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs it now stands, this bill will make it easier for borrowers to take responsibility for repaying their loans, and will make it easier for the Inland Revenue Department to administer this important investment for the future. Consequently, I have a huge amount of pleasure in once more commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222d798b9b56214460a4b0c1d6f48f3e44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d798b9b56214460a4b0c1d6f48f3e44\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E As has been said before, the Labour Party supports the Student Loan Scheme Bill. As we have said in both the second reading and the Committee stage, this bill will assist in the collection of student loans. It streamlines the student loan system. It will mean that students are able to go online, see their loan status, pay online, and keep in communication with the Inland Revenue Department much more effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ECertainly, the bill will improve the situation at the moment in relation to about $2 billion worth of loans held by students who have gone overseas. Although many of those people may not want to pay off their student loans, many of them possibly would like to but have difficulty accessing the system. I suggest that the sum that this upgrade purports to save by 2014 could be significantly more than $22 million, just from the fact that people will pay their loans back on time simply because it is easier to do. People who are working in Australia, the UK, or somewhere like that will be able to pay online. If they want to come back to New Zealand they may decide to pay off a bit more of their student loan, because when they do come back to New Zealand they will have to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI remind members about the size of student loans in New Zealand. The nominal value of loan balances now is around $11 billion. About 587,000 people have a student loan with the Inland Revenue Department for collection. The average amount borrowed is just under $7,000, although, as my colleagues have said, we have heard of loans in excess of $15,000 and $20,000. Students who remain in New Zealand pay off their loans in about 4\u00BD years, once they are earning a salary and have reached the threshold of around $19,000, which actually is not very much. Nevertheless, they start automatically paying back that money at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EFor the Labour Party, the issues around the implementation of this bill are certainly not its modernising the system and moving forward, which are well accepted. A couple of issues, though, that have come up in the course of the debates, particularly in the Committee stage, are worthy of mention at this point. The first is the additional charges: the $60 one-off charge and then the $40-a-year administration charge. Given the fact that this system will save us money, save New Zealand money, I would argue that these charges are another imposition on students. Students are stretched at the moment. Coming through the House at the moment is the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), which limits levies, but we know that levies in universities, in particular, will go up. We know that if the voluntary student membership bill goes through, it will gut the students associations. Instead of a voluntary contribution to the students associations there will be a mandatory levy. It will be levied by the university, because that is what has happened in every single case in both Australia and here. The students associations provide a plethora of different services that are valuable, but they will not be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to point out with regard to student loans is that they apply to every New Zealander who wants to take out a student loan bar those aged 55 and over. So from here on in this legislation has absolutely no relevance to people aged 55 and over, because they are not eligible for a student loan. I would like to say that the instrument that was brought in by the Budget this year is discriminatory against those aged 55 and over. They will not be able to access the same assistance and support when they go through university as everybody aged under 55. That is discriminatory. If we are talking about an education system that is meant to be serving everybody, and if we are talking about an education system that will both upskill and provide people with in-job training so that they can take on, and adapt to, the changes that will happen in our workforce, then that provision is a major step backwards. Although I believe that this legislation will certainly help those people with loans, or people who will get loans in the future, that luxury, that right, has been taken away from some members of our society who choose to go into tertiary education. They will not be assisted to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI would argue that 55 is a pretty young age in today\u2019s world and in today\u2019s workforce. We are looking at the retirement age being extended further and further out, if we follow the trends of all other countries in the world. If that was to happen\u2014and we know that people would like to work longer and longer, as health improves\u2014then those people who would like to retrain will simply not be able to do that, if they require additional support and assistance. I come back to the point of this legislation, which is smoothing the way, upgrading our ability to get back student loans, and assisting those who have student loans to repay their loans. That is a good thing. It certainly is not going to be the case for many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to touch on the point that the Minister of Revenue raised in the Committee stage regarding the computer system. There is a great deal of consternation out there that around $21 million out of the $35 million that was appropriated for upgrading the computer system has been spent on the Oracle system. I accept the Minister\u2019s argument that it is a very complicated procedure to move so much information into one computer system, but I should say that we have had follies of computer systems in the past. We have had a number of occasions to, I guess, warn us to keep a very, very close eye on the spend for this particular project. We are now going back to the first system\u2014the Oracle system, as the Minister said, will kick in a bit later\u2014so that this legislation can take effect earlier, which is, in principle, a good thing. I come back to the fact that computer systems and upgrading computers have been hugely traumatic and problematic in the past, and I hope that does not happen with this computer system. Labour will be keeping a very close eye on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, once again I would like to give the Labour Party\u2019s support to this legislation. It improves the administration and, hopefully, the repayment of student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae652878491843409da18f056aeca005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae652878491843409da18f056aeca005\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a call on the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme Bill, but I do not want to traverse the ground covered in my contribution in the second reading debate, when I went through, in a nutshell, the salient parts of the bill as I saw them. I will briefly touch on some of the blatant inaccuracies and misrepresentations from members opposite in this respect, because I think they need to be addressed. The first of those is to do with the fees. Both Labour and the Green Party have expressed their concerns about those. They have expressed outrage and indignation about this one-off $60 establishment fee, which is charged when the student loan is first taken out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c7bf3ff706420ea6904d1e0f84a9a4\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It was 50.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f4f357047444dc87dd4b9904181bb0\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it was $50; that is right, so it has gone up a whole $10 as a one-off fee\u2014and about the $40 Inland Revenue Department administration fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIt is worth pointing out that the changes that this Government has made to the student loan system are about making the system sustainable into the future, because the total debt is not, in fact, $11 billion, as the last speaker, David Shearer, said. The student loan debt book currently sits at over $12 billion, and within 3 years that will be well in excess of $14 billion. This is a huge item on the Government balance sheet, and we have to ensure that it is sustainable as we go forward, so the changes we have made have been very much about ensuring that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EOne part of that sustainability is being up front about the fact that there is a cost to run this system, and that cost is around $17 million per year for the work done by the Ministry of Social Development, which administers the StudyLink part, which is covered by the $60 fee. So even previously there was a $50 set-up fee to cover those Ministry of Social Development costs of $17 million per annum. But the Inland Revenue Department has annual administration charges around the system of over $22 million a year, so I think that having an administration fee of $40 per annum go towards that $22 million administration cost is absolutely justifiable and very sensible, and, as I say, it goes to the sustainability of the student loan policy as we go forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to touch on\u2014and I touch on it only because Labour members have continually gone back to it, albeit it is not in this bill\u2014is the issue of borrowers aged over 55. A couple of points need to be made in order to set the record straight. Firstly, those over 55 can still get student loans, despite Mr Shearer\u2019s repeated, completely incorrect statements on that. They can get student loans for their tuition costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614ab063dcd04eda932d39cf497e39fa\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: They can\u2019t get them for living costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794b9b47567b4b669039b273bfbd35ab\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Shearer\u2019s argument was that they could not access student loans whatsoever, which is wrong. They can get student loans for their tuition costs. Do members know what is really interesting? Just a few days ago the media was reporting that the worst group for repaying student loans were the over-55-year-olds. The single worst group at making any repayments on their student loans were the over-55-year-olds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ELet us be very clear that this bill does not in any way address the eligibility of over-55-year-olds. What it does is make the system sustainable as we go forward, provide a contribution towards the administration costs of running the system, and make the system easier for taxpayers to comply with and easier for student loan borrowers to comply with, and that is to be commended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI encourage anyone listening to this debate to ignore the incorrect rhetoric coming from members opposite and focus on the fact that this bill is set up to make it easier for borrowers to comply, and to make the scheme sustainable in terms of its administration costs. [Interruption] Labour members can bleat and moan to their heart\u2019s content, but that is not what this bill is about, and their contentions are simply wrong. With those few words I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002291f2349a2ce24f328f3a106eba14827a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291f2349a2ce24f328f3a106eba14827a\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will just pick up on some of the comments of the member opposite who has just resumed her seat, Amy Adams, about the over-55-year-olds and their capacity to learn and continue learning. It is essential, if we want to encourage people to continue to learn, have flexibility, and pick up new careers, that they should have access to training, skills, and higher education. Obviously, we need only look at the number of career changes that people have in life\u2014at 55, people may well be working for another 20 years, with plenty of time to repay loans. I would like to see the evidence that those people aged over 55 were paying the least amount of their student loans, because that would be absolutely out of line with everything that I know about that sector of the population, who are generally regarded as being the most responsible people in terms of their debts and obligations to society. I would like to see evidence presented, and we have not seen it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThat matter is not at the heart of the Student Loan Scheme Bill. At its heart this bill is about encouraging the repayment of student loans. I support the notion that we must have a facility like the student loan scheme to allow people on to the staircase of higher learning, and the reason for that is not just the higher incomes that it brings to them but also the higher productivity and prosperity it brings for us as a nation. I think we might be beginning to work out as a nation that we cannot simply make our way in this world with our hands; we need the skills from our heads, and we need the highest possible educational outcomes and achievements from all in our society, and that is why the student loan scheme has been an important mechanism. We acknowledge the costs that it represents, and that is why Labour is supporting this bill. But we should not forget the principle involved, which is that we want everybody in society to be able to go into tertiary education to upskill themselves so that they can contribute, not just for themselves and their families but also for us as a nation, and that is why we have a student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EOn the costing of student loans, we have had figures presented to us by the Inland Revenue Department and Treasury stating that it sits currently at about $11 billion - plus, and is projected to go to $14 billion or $15 billion. Those are big costs. When we consider that the current education spend per annum is in the same order, of around $11 billion - plus, obviously the scale of the student loan debt is high. This bill is beginning to address some of those issues, but I would also note some of the amounts involved. It was interesting, I thought, to see that the gain suggested, in the order of $22 million over a total cost of $11 billion of the student loan portfolio, is only about 0.5 percent and does not seem to be in quite the scale of things that might have been projected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThis bill also recognises that we need technology to connect to students, many of whom go overseas. I was very pleased to see that in his final speech to us as parliamentarians, our outgoing Governor-General, Sir Anand Satyanand, used his iPad to read his speech to us today. I think that that is an acknowledgment. Sir Anand is probably somebody, let us guess, who may be in his 60s now. I do not want to be unkind or uncharitable, but there is somebody who might well go on to yet another career, despite the distinguished career he has already had. There he was, using the technology of the 21st century, and that is at the heart of this bill. We will see the Inland Revenue Department implement a system whereby we can go online, check our balance, make our payments, and contribute back to the nation for the education that we have had, in some part. That is why Labour is in support of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI just note that the regulatory impact statement states that although most borrowers will benefit from the changes, some will be disadvantaged. That is why Labour has picked up on the situation of some of those people during the course of this debate. It is the role of the Opposition to point out some of the holes and inadequacies in legislation. Yes, a $40 administration fee per annum may not seem a lot, but it does add up cumulatively over the time of a loan. We are talking about a normal loan period in the order of 5 years, and obviously at first students are not very able to pay. Once they come into a job they are better off, but it is still a fee that will cause some of them some disquiet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI was particularly pleased to see in the bill the move on the late-payment penalties, because it really was a usurious rate when debtors were effectively being charged credit card interest rates, at 19.5 percent per annum. If we want to encourage people, we have to make it clear to them that they will be treated fairly, and that was not fair. I think that, basically, it said to some people that they did not need to bother, because it was too hard and the interest rates were too high. The interest rate has been pulled back to about 10.5 percent, or about 8.6 percent if debtors go into instalment arrangements. That provides the correct sort of incentive and signal to former students that they need to take on their responsibilities, and that the State will assist them with that, not treat them as a credit card company might. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAs we have discussed, we have $11 billion of debt in respect of the loan balances of the student loan scheme, and nearly 600,000 people owe money. We want to encourage more people to come into tertiary education, not discourage them. The average amount of borrowing is only in the order of $7,000. Obviously, we have put all of the half a million - plus former students into a total, which is why we are seeing the numbers involved and why the projections go to $15 billion by 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThat is why Labour is supporting this bill\u2019s passage through Parliament. We have some disquiet about some aspects of it. We have raised those concerns in the appropriate setting. We are particularly discouraged by the allied move in Budget 2011 to exclude over-55-year-olds from the potential to benefit from the changes made to this bill. We do not regard that as appropriate. That is a very, very discriminatory signal to those in the 55-plus community, who from the beginning of the year after next will not be eligible for the student loan scheme. That is a very negative signal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277333e6d88cf4c249b4a6ab68b7aa09d\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ea0f7e0f344842bddec8cb3f5c8f11\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: That is very clearly what will happen. The Minister\u2019s announcements accompanying the Budget on 19 May were that from the beginning of the year after next\u2014as of 1 January\u2014students who are aged over 55 will not be eligible for living costs or course-related costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4e8f0fc26f4dc4a02d99ef1167a2ce\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c6d7fc064646c1968d277ac1181c72\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite can tell me what other component of costs students face. That is exactly the point and it is at the heart of what we are saying. Those people are being disadvantaged and discouraged from trying to get themselves into another set of learning and acquire some extra skills. Therefore, they will not have the opportunities that would then be in front of them to allow them to learn another career or another discipline and to move into another job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAt the age of 55, people still have 15 or 20 years of working life ahead of them, if they so wish. That is why Labour says that making students over 55 not eligible for the scheme is not an appropriate part of the Government\u2019s moves on student loans. Those people should be eligible for loans and should be able to benefit from the changes made in this bill, in terms of the greater flexibility that is provided for repaying loans\u2014to be able to go online and repay them\u2014and in the lowering of interest rates. Those are all positive changes, which are welcomed, and a tidy-up of the student loan debt profile will result, even if it will be modest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe have considered the bill in great detail through the Finance and Expenditure Committee. In closing, I acknowledge the work of the select committee under the previous chair, Craig Foss, and the incoming new chair, Amy Adams. We have worked comprehensively as a select committee on this bill. I thank those officials from the Inland Revenue Department and other departments who have assisted us. It is a complex issue. I also acknowledge the work of my colleague Stuart Nash, who is not able to speak on this bill today but who has put enormous work into this bill on behalf of the Labour Opposition. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002272ae26a5f11041e28fb1853925463529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ae26a5f11041e28fb1853925463529\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Gareth Hughes would have liked to speak in the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme Bill, but he is unable to. He has left me some notes in the form of writing on paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EKia ora. It is good to be addressing student loan issues. However, this bill, although dealing with a few specific points, ignores the elephant in the room, which is the massive and growing student loan debt. The Green Party supports the general intent of this bill. However, we will be voting against it because it increases the already huge student debt burden facing Kiwis. This bill increases and introduces additional student loan fees, which will just add to the national student loan debt burden, extend the time it takes to repay a loan, and, because it reduces the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus, take things further back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe national student debt is now in excess of $11 billion, as we have heard, and the loan burden facing hundreds of thousands of Kiwi students and graduates is having a negative effect on families, society, and the wider economy. The student loan scheme was established in 1992 and has been a failure. The current total debt as of 30 June 2010 is a staggering $11,145,000,000, and is growing at $1 billion a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EFor the more than 560,000 New Zealanders who have a student loan, this debate is not academic. The average individual debt is around $28,800, which is close to the median New Zealand annual income, and takes years to pay back. Meanwhile, families are delayed, homes are not invested in, and graduates are struggling with the debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe voted to support this bill\u2019s referral to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for investigation, because we acknowledge that there are common-sense parts to the bill that we support. However, we have flagged our concerns regarding the new fees. We would like to repeat our thanks to submitters, officials, and members of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThere are some good aspects of the bill. This bill aims to make the student loan scheme simpler, which will benefit students as well as graduates. It cuts down on the administration of loans. At the moment there are two bodies that share information\u2014the Inland Revenue Department and StudyLink\u2014and students and graduates have to go backwards and forwards between the two. So that change is an advantage of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EWe also support greater electronic management of student loans. We think this is beneficial in terms of reducing administration costs for the Inland Revenue Department. But, most important, it will give students greater information, and transparency around their loans, and, hopefully, will encourage them to pay them back faster if they possibly can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIt is incredible that it is not until this year, 2011, that the New Zealand Government is transitioning to electronic management of loans. This change, in particular, makes it easier for overseas borrowers to access information, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of student loan refugees overseas\u2014which creates an amazing skills deficit for our country\u2014each with their own tale of how the student loan burden got out of hand for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThose are the positives. On the other side of the ledger, however, is this: if greater electronic management and increased efficiencies are achieved, as the Government intends, then the Green Party cannot fathom why the Government would need to bring in new and increased administration fees. Surely, if costs are reduced, the Government should be reducing fees, not increasing them. The increase to $60 for students drawing down a new loan, and a new $40 charge for borrowers, will add to the student debt burden, likely increase repayment times, and reduce the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Inland Revenue Department\u2019s regulatory impact statement states that the proposed changes are occurring at the same time as the student loan computer redesign. Therefore, there are no additional administrative costs. Why, then, charge new fees? Why, then, increase the fees if, in fact, costs are reducing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EMany students and graduates who are struggling with debt, high living costs, and increasing fees are sceptical of these new charges. We heard in the select committee from student representatives that many students and graduates who are facing these additional fees will be cynical of this new tax, as they see it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EAlthough we acknowledge that this Government has not reintroduced interest on student loans in this term of Government\u2014although National has not ruled it out, should it be successful in achieving a second term\u2014these new administrative fees are essentially interest by stealth. Interest-free student loans are hugely popular because they reduce the debt burden, make repayment easier and faster, and, lastly, are a fairer way of going about the business of tertiary education. Gareth Hughes has no doubt that National would reintroduce interest by lunchtime if it could, but overwhelming public opposition means that it needs to look for stealthy solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThese new fees will reduce the effectiveness of the voluntary repayment bonus. Those who make a voluntary repayment of $500 will receive a 10 percent repayment bonus of $50, but unfortunately this will just be eaten up by the administration fee. New fees\u2014whether we call them a tax or interest by stealth\u2014simply increase student loan debt, perpetuating the unfair experiment that is crippling a generation with debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill that the Green Party objects to is the pay-period change. We believe that the current annual assessment is fairer, especially for those students who earn the bulk of their year\u2019s income over the summer break and will be disadvantaged financially under this bill. Those who are, say, picking fruit or working in a freezing works or local cafe full time over summer, will likely see 10 percent of their weekly income automatically deducted to repay their loan. Yet over the course of the year, if they focus on studying during the academic year, they will be disadvantaged. We are aware that there will be exemptions for this large body of students. However, we expect not many will go through the rigmarole of applying for exemptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003ELastly, this bill continues the F grade the Government is earning in this portfolio. From capped spending, to discriminating against over-55-year-olds, to capped enrolments, to rising fees, this Government is making it less accessible, less affordable, and, in some cases, downright impossible to be a student in New Zealand. Tertiary education is a smart investment. Australia\u2014remember, we are trying to catch up\u2014is spending $5.3 billion extra over 6 years, and setting ambitious targets, setting a good model for New Zealand to follow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, we went into the Finance and Expenditure Committee with an open mind on this bill, and we support electronic management of loans as a positive step. However, we cannot support this bill in its current form\u2014I guess its final form\u2014as the administrative fees and pay-period changes primarily benefit the Inland Revenue Department at students\u2019 expense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will not vote to increase the student debt burden. The student loan portfolio is currently projected to grow to $14.5 billion by 2014-15. We are saddling an entire generation with crippling debt that could impact on all areas of their lives. It will only get worse, unless we act now. New Zealand needs real solutions to student debt, and this bill is not one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002204b6f65990ad40be9dc9a0d978c90885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b6f65990ad40be9dc9a0d978c90885\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I was expecting some of the members on the other side of the House who have been interjecting freely through the process to take a call on the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme Bill, but clearly only the interjections are required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will speak about three or four elements of the bill in this third reading. Labour is supporting the bill. It is supporting the glass half-full rather than the glass half-empty side of the debate we heard from the speaker who has just resumed his seat, Kevin Hague. Some elements in this bill are positive. Moving from a paper-based system to an electronic system is overdue for the student loan scheme, and I have no doubt that the changes being made here in terms of that system will assist borrowers. They will be able to interact with the Inland Revenue Department far better. They will know much more about the balance of their loan. We hope\u2014we are assured\u2014that compliance costs will be reduced as a result of this legislation. And the quality of information will increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMany constituency MPs will have been approached over the years by borrowers concerned about aspects of how the loan scheme operates. Certainly I myself, as a borrower, experienced this, and I have also had people come to see me about it when overpayments occur, and when information is not flowing between the Inland Revenue Department and what is now called StudyLink. People under this process will actually have much more control over their own loan accounts, and I think that is a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are some practical steps in the bill that tidy up one or two elements relating to overpayments, interest rates, and so on. Those steps, I believe, are good things, and that is why we are prepared to support this bill. There are also some changes relating to obligations on borrowers who are overseas, and I support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI have had my concerns over the years with the loan scheme. I support a lot of what the Green member said about the costs imposed on people who have undertaken tertiary education, but once someone has borrowed from the scheme, I believe they should meet their obligations. That means that when they are overseas, payments should be made in accordance with the law we are amending today. So I support the changes relating to obligations within the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI believe problems still exist in this bill, which is about to become law, in relation to the question of the pay-period assessment versus an annual assessment for repayment. I appreciate the changes that were made in the Finance and Expenditure Committee on this matter, and I think they go some way toward mitigating the concerns. I am not sure that the last Green speaker completely covered off the changes that the select committee made. The select committee took on board the concerns that were raised in first reading speeches and by submitters about the impact of a pay-period assessment on someone\u2019s earnings versus an annual assessment, if that person was a student or was to continue to be a student. This provision is needed because a lot of students try to work very, very hard over breaks so that they do not have to either borrow extra money while they are studying or undertake more part-time work during a study period. The changes made by the select committee acknowledge that, and ensure that a wider group of students, who are also borrowers, will be exempt from those repayment changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EHowever, that exemption is still available only on application. The student still has to get an exemption from the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. I urge the Government to work with students associations, as long as they still exist, to make sure that students and borrowers are aware of the fact that they can get this exemption. Some of them may not be aware of that fact. They will work very hard in part-time jobs in breaks, and may not know that they are now eligible under this law to be exempt from making repayments. I think the select committee has done a good thing in making this change with regard to students in a holiday break, who, under the current rules, would have to make repayments if they earned more than $367 per week in that holiday break. That now will not occur, but only if an exemption is obtained on application. I urge the Government to ensure that students and borrowers are aware of that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlthough we supported that particular aspect of the change, it is still true that part-time students and people with irregular incomes will now potentially be caught by the pay-period assessment. Members on the other side of the House enjoy talking about movies such as The Hobbit. It is true that people who work in that kind of industry get large amounts of money at a particular time, but perhaps will not earn over the threshold for a whole year. They will be making payments now on the basis of a pay-period assessment. That presents a difficulty. But I congratulate the select committee on having listened to those submissions. That is why bills need to go to select committees, so that issues like this can be dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI still foresee some issues relating to moving from an annual assessment to a pay-period assessment. I appreciate the fact that for some people there will actually be benefits, but a number of students who will still need to apply for an exemption, and other borrowers who will not be able to apply for that exemption, will be caught by this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other matter I will refer to has been referred to a number of times in the debate, and it is the question of the new $40 administration fee, which has been introduced under this bill. We on this side of the House are not convinced that there has been a justification for this fee. We have been told by the Minister of Revenue and also in the regulatory impact statement that the cost savings from the earlier part of this scheme are such that we should, in fact, potentially see a reduction in any administration costs relating to this scheme. We have been told that the new computer system will save money in the long term, so therefore the introduction of the $40 fee seems to have no basis other than revenue generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is, in fact, as other colleagues have said in the debate, the reintroduction by stealth of interest on student loans. We know that the National Government would rather have interest on student loans. There is no doubt about that. I am sure that if National is elected to a future term it will look at bringing that in. Politically they know they cannot do anything about it right now, but in reality that is what they want to do. Steven Joyce has pushed and pushed his officials to find ways of limiting access to the student loan scheme, because he cannot do the thing he really wants to do, which is to put interest back on student loans. John Key said he would oppose interest-free loans with every bone in his body. That is where the National Government really stands on student loans, and that is what we see in this bill with the bringing in of this administration fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is a $40 fee. Some members on the other side of the House said we should not worry about a fee that is only $40 per year. But that money still has to be paid back. Up until this bill passes today, students would not have to pay that money. Although we are supporting this bill because of the positive things it does with regard to the management of the student loan scheme, which we do think in the end\u2014we hope\u2014will reduce costs on borrowers, with this clause the costs on borrowers increase. It is very disappointing to see the $40 fee in this legislation. We do believe it is interest by stealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut overall, this bill does positive things. When the select committee made the change around the question of pay-period assessment versus annual assessment for repayments, it certainly swayed some of my Labour colleagues in favour of supporting this bill, because overall it does some good. But it still has within it problems around that and particularly the problem with the fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will finish my contribution to this debate in the last minute or so remaining by talking about tertiary education, which is the core of why we have a student loan scheme. I have heard in this debate members on the Government benches talk about how we should not be investing as much money in tertiary education as we do. Well, the truth is that we need to. To me, nothing is more important than education in order for people to achieve their potential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFor New Zealand to achieve its potential we need more people in tertiary education, more people researching, and more people coming up with the ideas that will drive a productive economy. We will do that only if we invest in tertiary education and if we see it as a public good. It is a public good. We all benefit from a more qualified, educated population. We benefit in terms of the services that we get, we benefit in terms of the social inclusion for people who get into education, and we benefit because of the great new ideas that those people have. We must invest in tertiary education for the good of our country, and we cannot afford to have Governments that take money out of tertiary education, because that will limit all of our futures. I believe that investment in tertiary education is one of the most important things that a Government can do. We must continue to invest in our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00229f2fc42514e148ed8c1ac87d5ccb4643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f2fc42514e148ed8c1ac87d5ccb4643\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E An interesting final point was made by the previous speaker, Grant Robertson. He said that we cannot have Governments that take money out of tertiary education, yet that is exactly what the previous Labour Government did\u2014take money out of tertiary education. It shifted money from tertiary education into the student loan scheme, and those tertiary institutions have been paying the price since, because of those Labour policies. Labour members start waking up now, but it is too little, too late, because Labour does not have a desire for tertiary education or students in tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Student Loan Scheme Bill is good for students because it takes advantage of students being able to manage their accounts online, and that is very important for students who are aware of and use those new technologies all the time. This bill gives them the opportunity to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is an important bill as well, in the sense that it is part of that reform of the student loan package, a package which meant that there was a limit on the number of students in our institutions, a change which was brought in by the previous Government. That has directly affected the ability of New Zealanders to get into tertiary education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289e7fc7bab694edf919118e9692c8785\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Did National remove that cap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6330d8c6fd4de8af6ade9fdecf29bc\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: A cap was brought in by Labour. Members on that side of the House know very well that Labour brought in that cap and reduced the number of students who could potentially go into tertiary education through its student loan programme. So I think, when we talk about this bill, that it is also important that we put into perspective some of the comments made by the Opposition that are completely wrong and do not reflect the reality of the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis is good for students. It is a good bill. It is good for the tertiary sector. It is part of a range of initiatives that the Minister for Tertiary Education has made that have been very effective in building a stronger tertiary sector. We look forward to this bill progressing through the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb0a35bd61f346d38a7430a87e8873c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb0a35bd61f346d38a7430a87e8873c3\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I think the mask is beginning to slip on the National side of the House. We are finally starting to see what National\u2019s true long-term agenda for tertiary education will be. David Bennett said that National does not regard money spent on the student loan scheme as money spent on tertiary education. That is a load of rubbish. The amount of money spent on the student loan scheme through interest-free student loans has made a massive difference to over 600,000 New Zealanders who have a student loan balance, and that is not including those who have already paid them off. We on this side of the House believe that spending money to improve the student loan scheme, to lower the cost of borrowing to our students and our graduates, is money well spent because it is money that encourages people to take up the opportunities of tertiary education, to upskill themselves, and to get better jobs. We think it is money well spent and we think it is a great investment in the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about the loan scheme itself. Of course, it is worth remembering, when we are debating this quite significant overhaul of the student loan scheme legislation, where the origins of the original legislation started, back in 1992 when National promised to abolish fees for tertiary education but in fact increased them and introduced the student loan scheme to allow people to pay for it, while simultaneously abolishing living allowances for students. Between 1992 and 2001 the number of students getting a student allowance dropped from 86 percent to 36 percent, because of National\u2019s broken election promises back in the early 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs a result, what we are talking about today with the Student Loan Scheme Bill is over 600,000 New Zealanders who will be affected by these changes to the student loan scheme. The nominal value of student loan balances as it stood at the end of 2009 was $11 billion, and it is forecast to increase to $15 billion by 2015. That is a significant amount of money. But I want to talk about repayment of student loans, which is covered in this bill. When the last Labour Government introduced interest-free student loans, National\u2014spearheaded by John Key, who said he was going to fight the policy with every bone in his body\u2014campaigned by arguing that no graduate would repay their loan and that the time for repayment would massively increase as a result of the interest-free student loan bribe, as National called it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI notice that the median repayment time for those who left study in 2006\u2014which was of course when interest-free student loans were introduced\u2014and who have remained in New Zealand is now forecast to be 4.6 years. When we introduced interest-free student loans, we were looking at a median repayment time of up around 9 years. So we have seen a significant reduction in the amount of time that it has taken people to repay their loans, and a big chunk of that is because of the interest-free student loans policy. That is something we should definitely welcome. It is something we on this side of the House are very proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere was a lot of debate during the Committee stage about students who work during their summer holidays, and the impact that these changes in this bill will have on them. I am very pleased to hear that provision has been made for students who do their summer holiday jobs and earn a reasonably significant amount of money within a short period of time and then use that money over the course of the term to pay for their studies and their cost of living. There are provisions to exempt them from mandatory student loan repayments. I think that is a very welcome thing. I am concerned, as my colleague Grant Robertson said, that this will rely on them making an application, and I hope that the Government will make that process very easy for students and also make sure that the information is readily available to them. Working during the summer holidays or during the term break in the middle of the year is something we want to encourage students to do, because when they do that, they are earning money that will result in their borrowing less. The more we can encourage students to borrow less, the smaller their loan balance at the end of their study will be, and the faster they will be able to pay it off once they finish their tertiary study. So I think we want to incentivise them for working during their study break, not penalise them. That is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe are talking here about 58 percent of full-time students undertaking full-time work during the summer break. And 64 percent of full-time students undertake regular part-time work during the term. That figure increases to 90 percent for casual work. That provision is very, very important. It would be great if we could get to the point where a student does not need to go through a large series of hoops in order to get that exemption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhen I spoke at the Committee stage I talked about some of the problems with the way the student loan scheme is administered at the moment and how difficult it can be for a graduate or even a current student to get accurate information about their student loan balance. It is absolutely fantastic that the Inland Revenue Department will be able to do something about that as a result of the changes in this bill. That is very important because at the moment the student loan scheme is being administered by two different parties. StudyLink is administering it for the current year of study, and the Inland Revenue Department is administering the historical part, if you like. Those balances, once they are transferred from StudyLink to the Inland Revenue Department, are actually easier to keep track of, but when they are with StudyLink, if someone is still studying, they obviously have two agencies to deal with to work out what the true extent of the student loan is. This bill will make that significantly easier for students by providing real-time information through the Inland Revenue Department where people will be able to look their information up online. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat is good news not just for current students, who will know where their loan is tracking; it will be also be good news for graduates who are overseas for a period of time but want to keep up their repayments. One of the things we want to encourage people to do is to keep up their student loan repayments while they are overseas. It is not a bad thing for graduates to want to go overseas, do their OE, and get some work experience in a different country. We want to make it easy for them to keep up their loan repayments while they are doing that. If they do not get into default while they are away overseas, they are more likely to come back. If someone gets into default on their student repayments while they are overseas, that then becomes a disincentive for them to come back to New Zealand. Making it as easy as possible for them to make their student loan repayments, to check their balances, and to do all those sorts of thing from overseas is really important. Electronic means are the best way to do that. It is a really welcome step for people to be able to log in and check their student loan balance and repayments just as they check their bank balance. I am really pleased this bill provides for that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have some concerns that some of this may be paving the way for National to implement the reintroduction of interest, following the next election. National members have not yet made a concrete commitment not to do that. Before the last election they said they would not do it in their first term of Government, yet they have been very silent about whether interest would be reintroduced in the second term of a National Government. I hope they will be very clear with the students and graduates of New Zealand about that, prior to the coming election. We know very clearly that Steven Joyce privately\u2014and around the corridors of Parliament\u2014has said he would like to reintroduce interest on student loans, even if it were at a nominal interest rate. He has been saying that, and it would not surprise me at all if, in a second term of a National Government, that would be one of the things we saw coming through. I am very concerned that this bill may well be paving the way for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I say that most of the provisions in the bill are pretty good. We oppose parts of it; we oppose the increase of the administrative fee for setting up a student loan. We think that is unnecessary, given the Inland Revenue Department probably ending up saving money out of this, but on balance Labour will vote in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u002240f7959accd44daba75df2083eb94b3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f7959accd44daba75df2083eb94b3f\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to take only a very short call here because a lot of things have been said about the Student Loan Scheme Bill already. What this bill does is simplify the procedures for all those students out there across the country so they can access the information on their loans, and we think that is a good thing. This bill also puts in place mechanisms to recover from those people who do not perform under the student loan contract. That is a good thing. It also puts in place a mechanism where those student borrowers throughout New Zealand and overseas pay some of the costs of the administration of that scheme. We think that is a fair thing. Those $40 annual administration fees will recover a fraction of the $22 million in annual administration charges paid by the Inland Revenue Department. If that turns out to be over-recovery in the future\u2014and the Opposition seems to think that fear exists\u2014there is the ability in regulation to lower the fee in time so it can be cheaper. Also, with the $60 establishment fee that will be paid towards the $17 million that the Ministry of Social Development incurs, there is an ability to reduce that fee in time should that be too expensive. All in all, this is a good bill. It helps put in place a more efficient student loan system. We commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8d762a3bca34ebcaa19efcc9b935295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8d762a3bca34ebcaa19efcc9b935295\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a quick call\u2014in fact, my only call today\u2014on the Student Loan Scheme Bill. In the debate we have referred to interest-free student loans, and indeed the Government has accepted that the electorate says that interest-free student loans are important. The Government commits to them. But it strikes me that the term \u201Cinterest-free student loan\u201D is something of a misnomer, because, of course, the loan is not interest-free. It is just a question of who pays the interest. At this stage, it happens to be New Zealand taxpayers. So while they have the burden of paying the interest on behalf of students, I think it behoves the Government to ensure that the scheme is administered well and that the repayment levels are optimal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThat leads nicely on to the second issue that is being discussed today. The problem right now is not whether the loans are interest-free, but whether the loans are paid back. The fact is that at the moment about 45 percent of the loans are written off. Mr Hipkins makes clever use of statistics about the speed with which those who do pay their loans off pay them off, which is true, but the fact is that nearly half of them do not. Many of those people are overseas. So I applaud the improvements in the bill that will ensure that graduates and other borrowers have better mechanisms by which to pay. Like Mr Robertson, I received calls from people overseas who said they would like to come back but the burden of the student loan had become so great that they were reluctant to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe third and final thing I will touch on is the basis of the administration fee, which, as I understand it, was introduced under the Labour Government. Therefore it is not a question of the principle but of degree. Certainly the costs of administering the scheme have improved dramatically, but an annual collection of $8 million to $9 million in fees represents only about 0.75 percent of the total loan base. So I cannot agree with Mr Robertson when he says this is interest by stealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EOverall, I think this is an excellent bill and I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a7e95ebd01b4d70997e74d327c99f47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Student Loan Scheme Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222989181983b240bfa35cbc3a4807fca0\u0022\u003ETaxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ca03c8ea4d44c1b9bd380fbe25df327\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c17c1244ccd1489db708a1b4747c8987\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022616097fcde1346c3aefc123562bda14f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022616097fcde1346c3aefc123562bda14f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I stand as somebody who was not on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, so I have a number of questions for the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, that perhaps can assist me to get a better understanding of the particular issues that are covered in Part 1 of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. As I understand it, some of the main provisions in Part 1 relate to foreign investment portfolio investment entity (PIE) rules. That is such a complex area of work\u2014and, as I understand it, it was actually introduced by way of Supplementary Order Paper, which was then referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee after the bill had been referred\u2014and the select committee, as I understand it, took on board the need for some of the changes to be made, and felt it was appropriate to call for submissions on the Supplementary Order Paper and to report the bill back to the House with the provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper included within the bill. This does seem to me to be a sensible way of approaching significant changes to legislation after it has already been introduced. It is a very good mechanism to ensure the public do still have the ability to have a say on matters of significance, even though they have been introduced after the legislation has been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI guess the question that I would like to know the answer to, personally, is whether this was because Supplementary Order Paper 220 was not ready for inclusion in the main bill, or whether it was something that came up subsequently to the bill being referred and, therefore, the bill was seen as a convenient vehicle upon which to attach these rule changes. If that was the case, then I am pleased that submissions were able to be called on it, because I think that approach is way more preferable to bringing a Supplementary Order Paper to the House in the Committee stage. If we had had this Supplementary Order Paper referred to the House at this stage, there would probably be an uproar and many expressions of outrage at things being tabled at the last minute and in the dead of night while we were under urgency. Of course it will not get that treatment today, because it has been through a good process and submissions were called on it. So I would appreciate an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI cannot pretend to be an expert on the PIE rules. In fact, the one thing that I normally tell people, and which I am particularly grateful for, is that I have never managed to find myself on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for any period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87a4000e78949d99fad7fc1a85c2797\u0022\u003EHon Craig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: We have high standards!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a58e2ad83848c98795900d75b05184\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the new Minister, who formerly chaired the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014and who was probably chairing the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a considerable part of this legislation, if not for all of the legislation\u2014did a very fine job as chair of that committee. No doubt that is what has seen him promoted to the high ranks that he has already managed to achieve. But I am not an expert on the PIE rules and, for the sake of the record of the House, I would like the Minister to go through the different elements of the adjustments that have been made, the purpose of them, and how they are intended to be applied with the new legislation in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt does seem to me that the select committee took considerable time and effort not just to accept the Supplementary Order Paper in its entirety and insert it in the legislation but also to go through all the different elements of the Supplementary Order Paper and make some changes to it on the way through. I did note for the record that when the select committee reported back from its consideration, it referred to the types of PIE that now exist. It expressed some concern about \u201Cthe way the PIE legislation is structured, with some over-arching rules applying to all PIES.\u201D Therefore \u201CModifications for specific types of PIE explain how the rules applying to them differ from the general rules. It can be unclear whether certain provisions apply to certain PIES, and some provisions conflict. We believe that the diversity of PIEs has made the legislation complicated, almost inaccessible, and hard to understand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWell, I cannot say that I am excited to read that, because it worries me greatly that we may have made it inaccessible. I know that people will be making recommendations to people, and it is not your average person in the street who will be looking at these matters, but if we can avoid complexity, we should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002232474ddc8d8b4ed283ee0ad5a90951aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232474ddc8d8b4ed283ee0ad5a90951aa\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to respond to the points the member Lianne Dalziel has raised. I must say it is very rare in a debate of this type to get a detailed cross-examination on the application of the portfolio investment entity (PIE) rules, but as the member has bravely walked down that path, I am happy to respond in kind. I should go through just a few points here and then talk about the state of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill as it has emerged from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe amendments the member referred to introduce two new categories within the PIE regime: the foreign investment zero-rate PIE and the foreign investment variable-rate PIE. These aim to align the tax treatment of non-resident investors in a PIE with the tax treatment of direct investors. Resident investors in a foreign investment PIE will continue to be taxed as if they were in an ordinary PIE. These new rules will be optional. PIEs can continue to apply to existing rules, where non-residents are taxed at a flat 28 percent on their income. Foreign investment zero-rate PIEs will generally be able to invest only offshore. De minimis levels of New Zealand - sourced income will be allowed\u2014for example, so such a PIE can finance its day-to-day operations with a New Zealand bank account. Non-resident investors in a foreign investment zero-rate PIE will be taxed at zero percent on all their PIE income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EForeign investment variable-rate PIEs can invest in both New Zealand and offshore assets. Non-resident investors in a foreign investment variable-rate PIE will face a variety of different tax rates, depending on the type and the source of the income. Foreign investment variable-rate PIEs will have an option to withhold non-resident withholding tax from distributions made to investors out of unimputed dividends. This will be instead of the PIE paying PIE tax in the normal manner, and by withholding the non-resident withholding tax, non-resident investors should be able to claim a credit for the tax paid in their jurisdiction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe key changes the committee has made include that for foreign investment variable-rate PIEs, non-resident investors should be taxed only on interest income from financial arrangements, and that matches the treatment of direct investors. Foreign investment zero-rate PIEs should be able to purchase New Zealand - sourced derivatives, such as foreign exchange hedges. This is justified, as these arrangements could be seen as part and parcel of the PIE\u2019s offshore investments. In addition, a non-resident would normally not be taxed on any income earned under New Zealand - sourced derivatives, because derivatives do not pay interest. An investment in land investment companies should be allowed. The modifications to the exemptions in the foreign investment fund rules that were to apply if a foreign investment fund invested in a foreign investment PIE will be removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EA provision has been inserted to allow a retail PIE to treat income from a wholesale PIE if the retail PIE earned the income directly. This will prevent income earned from foreign investments made by a wholesale PIE in New Zealand being reclassified as New Zealand - sourced income when it was allocated to the retail PIE, for example. The modifications to the source rules will be extended, so that income from a foreign investment PIE would not have a New Zealand source merely because a contract was made or performed in New Zealand, provided that the contract related to the PIE\u2019s overseas investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI am very pleased the member raised those questions. I hope that the very clear and simple explanation I have given in response has clarified a number of her concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00223b52115d0f1b4bb981d0fd52e50603be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b52115d0f1b4bb981d0fd52e50603be\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I also must confess, like my colleague Lianne Dalziel, to not being a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which considered the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, and also that this matters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ab3d06604343228e8d3202115edf47\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: But you aspire to be a member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704b22ee2b4944429beb43ff3b6a0c20\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: I do. I think, somewhere deep inside, we all aspire. In fact, Michael Woodhouse made the transition from the Health Committee to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, so maybe there is hope for all of us yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EMaybe it was all that talk of portfolio investment entities (PIEs)\u2014I do not know\u2014but I was inspired to get to my feet and make a contribution to this debate. I do not want to talk about PIEs; I thought I might talk about clause 6, which refers to use-of-money interest. Again, not having followed this bill through the select committee process, on just a first reading of it I have a couple of questions for the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, as well. They are probably easily answered by any member of the select committee, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003ENew section DB 3B, which is to be inserted in the Income Tax Act 2007 by clause 6, states: \u201C(1) A person is allowed a deduction for an amount of interest they are liable to pay under Part 7 of the Tax Administration Act 1994.\u201D Part 7, put simply, states: \u201CA taxpayer is liable to pay interest on unpaid tax to the Commissioner in accordance with this Part.\u201D In other words, if we do not pay our tax on time, a use-of-money interest is applied to those unpaid taxes and we are liable to pay that tax. This new section DB 3B(1) says that a person is allowed a deduction. It is not clear to me, just from reading this at first glance, what the criteria are for that deduction\u2014what makes someone able to apply for that deduction\u2014so I wondered whether the Minister would address that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIn an earlier bill I was lamenting the fact that the Inland Revenue Department now owes me money. I wonder whether this works the other way, where the Inland Revenue Department has to pay interest on the use of money it has if one ends up overpaying tax, student loan fees, or anything like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df91b1fd1b6f42d69f8d15421b273299\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: So you could buy more pies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421b824201044996b288cfe80ccee742\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: One could buy more pie with the interest that one earned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b1c581c2a24ea397fab829449f5090\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They kept demanding my husband\u2019s student allowance after he paid it all back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad29def508a84151b19df4bd81be21df\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what happened to me, as well. It is atrocious. It is a terrible situation, and I hope that something is being done about that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAs someone who is coming to this for the first time, I ask the Minister what the criteria are for getting a deduction for interest that one is liable to pay if one has not paid all one\u2019s taxes and use-of-money interest is being applied to it. I would appreciate the Minister answering that question. It looks like he is keen to get to his feet and give us an answer, and that would be fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 in his name to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 7DB \u201CEZ 23B(7) (Insurance or compensation for depreciable property replaced because affected by Canterbury earthquakes)\u201D and substitute \u201CEZ 23B(8) (Property acquired after depreciable property affected by Canterbury earthquakes)\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Eto omit from section EE 44(2)(d) in clause 7DC \u201CInsurance or compensation for depreciable property replaced because affected by Canterbury earthquakes\u201D and substitute \u201CProperty acquired after depreciable property affected by Canterbury earthquakes\u201D; \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Eto omit the heading above section EE 47(4) and section EE 47(4) in clause 7DE and substitute the following heading and subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CIrreparable damage or damage rendering building or grandparented structure useless\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tThe third event is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tthe irreparable damage of an item or property that is not a building or grandparented structure; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tthe damage of an item of property that is a building or grandparented structure, or of the neighbourhood of the building or grandparented structure, causing the building or grandparented structure to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tuseless for the purpose of deriving income; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tdemolished or abandoned for later demolition.\u201D; \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Eto omit section EE 48(3)(a) in clause 7DF(5) and substitute the following paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tthe building or grandparented structure has been rendered useless for the purpose of deriving income, and demolished or abandoned for later demolition as a result of damage to the building or grandparented structure or of the neighbourhood of the building or grandparented structure; and\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Eto omit section EE 23B in 12BB and substitute the following section:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CEZ 23B Property acquired after depreciable property affected by Canterbury earthquakes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CWhen this section applies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(1)\tThis section applies for a person and an income year (the current year) before the 2016-17 income year when the person,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tin or before the current year, receives insurance or compensation for items of depreciable property (the affected property) each of which, as a result of a Canterbury earthquake as that term is defined in section 4 of the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Act 2011,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tif not a building or grandparented structure, is irreparably damaged; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tif a building or grandparented structure, is rendered useless for the purpose of deriving income, and demolished or abandoned for later demolition, because of damage to the building or grandparented structure or to the neighbourhood of the building or grandparented structure; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tin the absence of this section, would have in or before the current year, from insurance or compensation for the items of affected property (the affected class) in 1 of the categories referred to in subsection (10)(b), total depreciation recovery income under section EE 48 (Effect of disposal or event) exceeding the total amount for the affected class of depreciation loss, treated as a positive amount, under section EE 48; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\tplans in the current year to acquire depreciable property (the replacement property) meeting the requirements of subsection (7); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(d)\tgives written notice to the Commissioner under subsection (9)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tspecifying the affected property:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tlinking, for the purposes of this section, each item of acquired replacement property with an affected class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CDepreciation recovery income and suspended recovery income\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(2)\tThe amount for the affected class of the excess referred to in subsection (1)(b) (the excess recovery) is not depreciation recovery income except to the extent of the amount that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tremains after adjustment under subsection (3) or (6) (the suspended recovery income); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tis attributed to an income year by subsection (7).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CEffect of acquiring item of replacement property if suspended recovery income from affected property not in pool\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(3)\tIf the person acquires an item of replacement property (the replacement item) and links the replacement item with affected property for which the person does not use the pool method, the amount given by subsection (4)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tis treated as not being included in the amount of the person\u2019s expenditure on the replacement item, for the purposes of determining\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tunder section EE 16(4) (Amount resulting from standard calculation) the item value or cost for the replacement item, if the person uses the diminishing value method or straight-line method for the replacement item; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tunder section EE 22 (Cases affecting pool) the cost of the replacement item, if the person uses the pool method for the replacement item; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tis a reduction in the amount of the suspended recovery income for the affected property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CAmount of reduction: expenditure on replacement item and suspended recovery income\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(4)\tThe amount of the reduction under subsection (3)(a) or (b) for a replacement item and affected property for which the person does not use the pool method is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tzero, if the cost of the affected property equals or is less than the person\u2019s total expenditure in acquiring, with or before the replacement item, other replacement property linked with the affected property; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tthe amount calculated using the formula\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003Elimited replacement cost x excess\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\t\taffected cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CDefinition of items in formula\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tIn the formula,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tlimited replacement cost is the lesser of the following:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tthe amount by which the cost of the affected property exceeds the total expenditure in acquiring, with or before the replacement item, other replacement property linked with the affected property:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tthe amount of the expenditure on the replacement item:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\texcess is the excess recovery for the affected property:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\taffected cost is the total cost for the person of the affected property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CEffect of acquiring item of replacement property if suspended recovery income from affected property in pool\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(6)\tIf the person acquires an item of replacement property (the replacement item) and links the replacement item with affected property for which the person uses the pool method,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tthe amount of the person\u2019s expenditure on the replacement item is treated as being reduced, by the amount equal to the lesser of the amount of expenditure on the replacement item and the amount of suspended recovery income for the affected property after the acquisition of other replacement property with or before the replacement item, for the purposes of determining\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tthe adjusted tax value of the replacement item, if subparagraphs (ii) or (iii) do not apply; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tthe cost of the replacement item for the straight-line method, if that method is used to determine depreciation loss for the replacement item; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(iii)\tthe adjusted tax value of the pool of the replacement item, if the person uses the pool method for the replacement item; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tthe amount of the suspended recovery income for the affected property is reduced by the amount of the treated reduction under paragraph (a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CRequirements for replacement property\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(7)\tAn item of replacement property for a person must\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tbe depreciable property that is not depreciable intangible property; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tbe acquired in or before the person\u2019s 2015-16 income year; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\tbe included in the same category under subsection (10)(b) as the affected class with which the person links the item, if the affected class is described in subsection (10)(b)(i) or (ii); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(d)\tbe located in greater Christchurch as that term is defined in section 4 of the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Act 2011, if the item is a building, grandparented structure, or commercial fit-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CAmount of depreciation recovery income\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(8)\tThe person has, in an income year for affected property, an amount of depreciation recovery income equal to the amount of suspended recovery income for the affected property\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tat the end of the income year, if that year is the 2015-16 income year and neither of paragraphs (b) and (e) apply earlier; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\twhen in the income year the person decides not to acquire more replacement property, if neither of paragraphs (a) and (e) apply earlier; or\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\twhen in the income year the person goes into liquidation or becomes bankrupt, if neither of paragraphs (a) and (b) apply earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CNotice of election for affected property\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(9)\tA person choosing to rely on this section to suspend in a current year the recognition of suspended recovery income from the insurance or compensation for affected property must give written notice to the Commissioner\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tfor the earliest income year (the estimate year) in which the amount of the insurance or compensation for the affected property can be reasonably estimated, by the later of 31 January 2012 and the date on which the return of income is filed for the estimate year; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tif the current year is after the estimate year,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\tfor each income year between the estimate year and the current year, by the date on which the return of income is filed for that income year; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tfor the current year, by the date on which the return of income is filed for the current year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CContents of notice of election\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(10)\tA notice under subsection (9) must\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(a)\tdescribe the items of affected property; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(b)\tindicate in which of the following categories each item of affected property is included:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(i)\ta building or grandparented structure not referred to in subparagraph (iii):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(ii)\tcommercial fit-out not referred to in subparagraph (iii):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(iii)\tdepreciable property for which the person uses the pool method:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(iv)\tdepreciable property not referred to in subparagraphs (i) to (iii); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(c)\tgive details of each item of replacement property acquired in the current year and the affected class to which the person is linking the item; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(d)\tgive the amount of the expenditure on the replacement item and the reduction under subsection (3) or (6) of that expenditure for the purposes of determining adjusted tax value or depreciation loss; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(e)\tgive the amount, for the affected class, of the suspended recovery income at the end of the current year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CDisposal of replacement property: reduction in cost treated as depreciation loss\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(11)\tFor the purposes of section EE 48, the amount by which a person\u2019s expenditure on a replacement item is treated as being reduced under subsection (3) or (6) is an amount of depreciation loss for the item for which the person has been allowed a deduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201CRelationship to subpart EE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u201C(12)\tThis section overrides subpart EE (Depreciation).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EDefined in this Act: adjusted tax value, amount, assessable income, building, commercial building, commercial fit-out, depreciable intangible property, depreciable property, depreciation loss, depreciation recovery income, grandparented structure, income year, liquidation, notice, pool, pool method, return of income, straight-line method.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 1, and the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 263 in his name to Part 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c3b27bb19d441fc9e70be09a0e2c8de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002248d768dae5cd4e8f9915e06e0a5f354f\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000808\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 254 and 263 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000809\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220118e40bcbd47a6af95c907ea06f37f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfb2ae60de2a4e8a9f2c7afb468fd82e\u0022\u003EPart 3  Remedial matters and abolition of gift duty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d765f3c64dbe411a8690b07ed28bba6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d765f3c64dbe411a8690b07ed28bba6e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I will raise exactly the same issue that I raised before, but from a slightly different perspective. This issue was not done by way of Supplementary Order Paper but included in the provisions of the original bill\u2014namely, the issue of gift duty abolition being included in something called the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. I say that the Labour Party will be voting against this part, and voting against the legislation as a whole, because it contains this offensive provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what a tax administration and remedial matters bill is for, we see that it is not for a matter of significant policy, such as the abolition of gift duty. That matter deserves to be part of a policy bill, not something called a tax administration and remedial matters bill. I believe that it is a fundamental issue in terms of how these things are portrayed to the public when submissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ef4b4de8a14ae4a9e76585f80bd5a4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s misleading advertising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf6ff56cf324d5aad3ea1b12533a16a\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is misleading advertising. When we think of the submissions being called for\u2014the select committee puts a notice in the paper and says it is calling for submissions on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014do members think that anyone on earth would know that that bill would include a policy matter? Would anyone think that? When I first arrived in Parliament some 21 years ago this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eea0c4955ea426b9116ebd0332bc912\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f609bf60de604936ae40f3fac6fe4472\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I know; I was just a child at the time. When I came here all sorts of things used to be hidden behind names like this one. We had the Social Security Amendment Bill that contained benefit cuts. We had the Finance Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014or 3, 4, 5, or whatever\u2014again hiding all of these things. The title did not disclose what the detail of the legislation was all about. Here we have the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, which is getting rid of gift duty, something that surely should be subject to quite a significant policy debate. I object to the use of a tax administration bill to deal with a matter of policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet us turn to the matter of policy. When we hear from the Government over and over again that we in this country should not be dealing with matters that we cannot afford, when we are looking at changes to benefits, and when we are looking at all sorts of things as far as the Government expenditure side goes, why is the Government reducing our revenue on the other side of the ledger as part of this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224864783f85bc4f13bdf4edd28ed8ed47\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: $1 million!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45f7fef09534d9eb13a4be553ac007b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter how much we are talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2ab174adc043d69d5e60985c2cb217\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Saving $65 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d945ef0e313464287839cdd04d25fd0\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, that figure is nothing to the National Party. It is nothing to the National Party that $65 million per year is up for grabs as far as this provision is concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe are actually talking about the Government saying it will do away with a form of revenue for the Government at a time when it is preaching hardship for every element of expenditure on the other side of the ledger. I think that is outrageous. I think it is important that as a country we deal with these issues, and we do it on a principled basis. The principle here is that we know that the removal of this particular duty will open up a significant range of tax-avoidance opportunities. We know that will be the case. The Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, may well shake his head, but I expect him to take a call on this part, and to respond to this particular issue in order to tell us why no tax-avoidance opportunities\u2014I presume that is what he is saying\u2014are opened up by the removal of gift duty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHe has already been part of a Government decision to benefit\u2014what percentage of income earners benefited from the tax cuts that we had last year? The top 10 percent of income earners. Now that same group of people is benefiting again from changes to our gift duty regime. Abolishing gift duty in the context of the massive, unaffordable tax cuts given to the top income earners in New Zealand last year by this Government strikes me as really just looking after the interests of those people at the very top, and not really caring about those who have to pay for an increased cost of living without having any commensurate decrease in their amount of taxation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think gift duty is part of a progressive tax system. Its abolition will favour those people at the top end of the scale. I believe it is important that Government members stand to take a call on this issue to ensure that proper analysis of it is undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI also understand that members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee were deeply concerned about the inexactitude of the regulatory impact analysis process. They felt that it failed to achieve the requirements of a robust process. I would like the Minister of Revenue to respond to that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f786cf6cc6b749589e190e59369e77f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f786cf6cc6b749589e190e59369e77f8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E There are a number of things I should say by way of response. The first is to take up the member\u2019s point about the timing of this legislation. My recollection is that the announcement that gift duty was to be abolished was made in June of last year, June 2010. We said at the time that the legislation would be introduced via the next available legislative vehicle, which happened to be this Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. There is nothing unusual in policy changes being introduced in legislation of this type, because these are, in effect, umbrella bills. The bill then went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and submissions were called for on the provisions. The committee went through the bill and came back with a recommendation, which we are now implementing many months later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EPrior to the decision even being made, a substantial review had been undertaken across the Government about whether we should simply just increase the threshold or abolish gift duty altogether. It became clear during that review that agencies like the Ministry of Economic Development, Treasury, the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Health, the New Zealand Police, the Ministry of Social Development, and the Housing New Zealand Corporation all said that with regard to potential abuses of the system, which the member has referred to, existing powers in existing legislation were more than adequate to deal with those concerns, and that gift duty, our second-oldest tax after stamp duty, was therefore an anachronism and ought to be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut the story gets more compelling. Each year several hundred thousand gift duty returns are made to the Inland Revenue Department. Over 98 percent of those are nil returns. We spend about $500,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c84c0050b04ad194ff25a567fcc302\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Nil tax or nil gifts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f61d0206204c4fb3d9e4d878e8c7c8\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Nil in terms of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e0d5b4871934d8db9edfd97ceba96f7\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Nil tax paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1ca38204fd4a6484ed3991646f4cb2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Nil tax, not nil gifts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f2814a8dab4e9bacda40e7d204deb0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We spend about $500,000 a year administering the gift duty system; we raise about a million dollars a year. So we have a tax that raises $500,000 net a year, but 98-plus percent of those who are affected by it are not actually caught by it. But here is the rub: any reasonable assessment shows that it is costing taxpayers not $500,000 but $70 million a year to comply with the duty. That becomes somewhat of a no-brainer when the advice then becomes very strong that existing legislation in other areas is dealing with the mischief we are seeking to address in the first place. So the logic for retaining gift duty simply goes out the window at that point. The only people who are a little concerned about its departure, I dare say, are lawyers and accountants, who for years have done very, very well in terms of filing returns and preparing information to go to the Inland Revenue Department. It has been an easy source of income for them. Well, not any longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen estate duty was abolished in 1992 the Government of the day considered abolishing gift duty, but decided not to at that point because it was a revenue earner. The reality is that it is not any more. We have significant provisions in other social legislation that take account of the capacity of people to manipulate the system, so gift duty\u2019s day has long since been and gone. What this legislation does\u2014and I am very proud of the fact\u2014is bury it from 1 October this year. There will be adequate provisions in other legislation, and they will be enforced. That is what was intended to be the case all along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe strong argument that one could mount for the retention of gift duty was not all that strong. It was simply that if we take the duty away, then other legislation will have to be enforced. That is really what it comes down to. Gift duty has been a convenient way out: we have not needed to worry about enforcing other legislation because we have had gift duty. That is back to front. Gift duty is costing taxpayers a lot of money, it is raising very little for the Crown, it is irrelevant, it is time for it to go, and that is what this legislation will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn the time remaining to me I will pick up a point that Mr Lees-Galloway made in relation to an earlier part concerning use-of-money interest. He will find that the answers to his questions are actually contained in the provisions of this part, regarding the way in which use-of-money interest applies, and also the obligations for both the Crown and the taxpayer in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8d343c6152342a58b9b879e233789bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8d343c6152342a58b9b879e233789bc\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E With respect, I think the Minister was wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa44743d469482e8f50421afc9fc912\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Cutting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e076aad0fb4494c9db9a85abe3e7284\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: That member can take a call. The reason why I said the Minister was wrong is simply that estate duties were abolished in 1992 but gift duties remained in place not only for revenue but for a very good purpose. Gift duties remained in place to prevent people from giving away large assets in order to avoid paying creditors, to obtain access to Government advantage, or to avoid tax liabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI am inspired by the Minister\u2019s press release published in November last year, which I will read out: \u201CEarlier this year I announced\u201D\u2014that is, I the Minister, not me\u2014\u201Cthat the Government\u2019s intention to remove gift duty if concerns regarding creditor protection\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f37bf8206546fb80058b92f6e9b932\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s speaking? Is this Raymond or the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229826a0dbfa104740a95a616ec67c4784\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the member will listen, please\u2014\u201Cand social assistance targeting could be addressed.\u201D, said Mr Dunne. He went on to say: \u201CSince my announcement there has been considerable work done by officials across government to assess the concerns. This work has revealed that the protection that gift duty offers in the areas of income tax, creditors and social assistance has only ever been incidental and very limited.\u201D That is a rather interesting position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI was not sitting on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for this particular bill, but I had access to the submission from the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants. I am sure the new chair of the select committee, Amy Adams, will be even more informed in this area. The submission from the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants notes a number of tax-avoidance opportunities that may arise in the absence of gift duty, and the institute established at least five such scenarios. The Law Society and a number of other submitters raised a further concern that the abolition of gift duty would create problems for the enforcement of claims under the Property (Relationships) Act 1976 and the Family Protection Act 1955. Of course those submissions are from the lawyers and accountants the Minister just described, using very interesting language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EEven Inland Revenue Department officials cautioned, in the regulatory impact statement, that tax avoidance could increase in the absence of the duty. I will quote: \u201Cit is not possible to precisely determine the extent to which gift duty alleviates issues such as income tax minimisation, social assistance targeting, and defeat of creditors.\u201D On that note, I wish that the Minister would take a call and enlighten us in that area. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002291cc9b154afd494ca18cedd9b95060fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291cc9b154afd494ca18cedd9b95060fc\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on the clauses in Part 3 of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill that cover remedial matters and the abolition of gift duty. I turn to the issues around the abolition of gift duty. I do not think the Minister is giving the fullest picture on these issues. The fact that gift duty raises only about a million, or a million and a half, dollars a year is not the only point for consideration. Actually, gift duty exists to prevent tax avoidance and structuring. By scrapping gift duty we are opening a way to more tax avoidance and structuring. We have to remember\u2014and this is at the heart of why Labour is opposing this part of the bill\u2014that we have seen two rounds of tax cuts for top income earners. I think a chorus of voices is starting to be heard on ongoing tax reductions for those at the top end of town. We need only to read today\u2019s Press\u2014I know it is in there, and it is probably in the Dominion Post as well\u2014to see the commentary from Warren Buffett, the wealthiest man in the world, who has commented that he wants to pay more tax, should pay more tax, and is paying half the tax rate of his secretary, which he thinks is wrong, wrong, wrong. When we abolish gift duty taxes, we are furthering the ends of people like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIf members think this relates only to Warren Buffett, they should take another look. If we look at last Sunday\u2019s Herald on Sunday, we see that a column by Bernard Hickey noted that we have a situation in this country where a change has happened over the last 20 years. The top 1 percent of income earners are now taking more than double what they were taking in the mid-1980s. They are now taking nearly 14 percent. Fourteen percent of the national income in the hands of the top 1 percent of income earners is a doubling since the 1980s in this country. In America it is 20 percent, so Warren Buffett is doing particularly well. Many other people in this country are benefiting from tax breaks like these being passed by this Government under the changes in the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. But it is just not appropriate\u2014at this point most particularly in our economic and financial cycles, when we have this country doing it tough\u2014to send a signal to people at the top end of town that not only will they get two rounds of income tax cuts but also the Government will pass a bill that will effectively allow them to continue structuring things in a way that will not be subject to the scrutiny of the Inland Revenue Department. That is why Labour is opposing this bill. It is wrong, wrong, wrong to continue piling money into the accounts of people who, as Bernard Hickey has observed, are already getting 14 percent of the national income\u201414 percent is in the hands of 1 percent of the population, which is a doubling since the 1980s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI challenge any member opposite to stand up in this Chamber and say that that is fair, and that that is the kind of New Zealand they truly want to live in. When we get extremes of wealth on one hand, we will then get the resulting extremes of poverty on the other. I have seen that kind of split in society. I lived briefly in South Africa in the 1980s. That is the kind of split that sees people with barbed wire fences around their homes in the leafier suburbs of town, and sees people rioting on the streets because they just do not think they are getting a fair shake. Maybe we have seen some portent of that in Britain in the last couple of weeks, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe need to have an equitable society, and gift duty may not be an income earner of any real recourse to the Inland Revenue Department, but it is there for another reason: it is there to try to ensure that people pay their fair share of tax, and that people do not structure and avoid tax through estates. That is the reason for it. In fact, the analysis shows why it is important. When $70 million is being spent to avoid $1 million of tax, what does that say? It says that there must be some considerable benefit to people for that amount of money to be spent trying to protect them from tax of that level. I say to this Parliament that we have a situation. When we get observers like Bernard Hickey, from interestrate.co.nz, saying that we have a situation in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797dfd83991e49f9bb8634d8b66e9a8f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I have rung the bell; the member should sit down. Mr Robertson, were you seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f51b3c00db0462eb930f6e6fcffb05e\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I was seeking the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275fd8585ff0d4f5e88c9aff316451680\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Grant Robertson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad3099cd24f47609a53aeca387e9227\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Burns didn\u2019t have more than one call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229017948a029845c79b65cc6106233d07\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: He did not seek the call. Are you raising a point of order, Mr Mallard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaebfc5a1d614c85842fed14d1192c9c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am just chairing from the seat, as you did, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec516b549844a42bc804cc1f424ae46\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022473a00c9a9e04ab4a53fbb20c21644d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022473a00c9a9e04ab4a53fbb20c21644d9\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E During the call that Brendon Burns has just taken, Simon Bridges interjected from the other side of the Chamber that Labour was interested in \u201Cenvy tax\u201D. Well, I have something to say to Mr Bridges. I am interested in a fair tax system where people pay their fair share\u2014a fair tax system where people pay their fair share. We have heard a lot about the need to tighten our belts as a country as we deal with recession. We have heard a lot from members on the other side about the fact that these are tough times and there need to be cuts and we need to make sure that every dollar is spent wisely. Who bears the brunt of the need to tighten our belts? Who has to take the steps to deal with the recession? It is those on the lowest incomes. When do we see the people who benefited most in the financial boom times\u2014the people who benefited most from the very things that actually led to the recession\u2014paying their fair share? When do we see that from the Government? That is why on this side of the Chamber we are opposing the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. The abolition of gift duty is yet another step by this Government in saying that the people who have to pay for the effects of the recession are those on the lowest incomes, while at the same time tax cuts\u2014round after round of tax cuts\u2014benefit mainly the highest-income earners. Now gift duty is being taken away. As other speakers have said, it is not just about the revenue gathered; it is about the tax-avoidance measures. We now see yet again from this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf16e5620124881ad8a1b97a2762276\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Robertson\u2019s a tax expert!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e683686fa90d425d9b9d2d8677c8e3d0\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Aaron Gilmore says \u201Ctax expert\u201D. I will tell members what I think I might be a bit of an expert on, and that is fairness. That is actually giving people a fair go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205001b0ba96848ac8ceb0e3ab59b1c8d\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Fairness? Oh my God!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d785ce6bd7b4b05aac0238b4ad9e193\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Amy Adams decries the concept of fairness. Well, if we do not have fairness in our society, if we do not try to include people in our society and give them the chance to achieve their potential, then we run the risk of people feeling excluded. We run the risk of London-style activities happening, because people have no role in the future of their society if we do not include them. If we as a country keep letting the gap between rich and poor grow, that is how social exclusion grows. That means people are not able to fulfil their potential. Bills like this that abolish gift duty, and taxation packages from the National Government that favour those who have the most against those who have the least, will lead to the gap between rich and poor growing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis measure adds to unfairness. It does not mean that people will pay their fair share in our taxation system. And I would say that that should be the basis of any taxation system. Regardless of the details, where tax experts are required, the fundamentals that parliamentarians get to decide on are whether a tax system is fair. This Government throughout its term has made our tax system more and more unfair. It has weighted all of the tax cuts in favour of those who earn the most; and those who earn the least\u2014those who have actually struggled through the recessionary times\u2014are the people who constantly have to make the sacrifices. The sacrifices are not being made by the people who have not paid tax for years and years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have heard about Warren Buffett from Brendon Burns. We heard from Sam Morgan, who said that he should be paying more tax. He said that he should be paying more tax\u2014and he should be paying more tax. He acknowledges that he wants to do that. But Mr Gilmore and his colleagues on the National side are saying that those on the lowest incomes have to take the cuts in services and have the punitive measures put in place, and those on the highest incomes continue to get tax cuts and no longer have to pay gift duty. Those are the people being favoured by this kind of provision, and that is wrong, in my view. This bill has been brought before Parliament, as my colleague Lianne Dalziel said, through what is called an administration and remedial matters bill, but in actual fact the removal of gift duty sits alongside other fundamental policy issues that, in my view, have made our tax system more unfair and in turn will make our society more unfair. We can do so much better than this by having a tax system that actually taxes income in all its forms. I believe we must do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e213f71d1eef43c0bd80dd7fd85ed4c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e213f71d1eef43c0bd80dd7fd85ed4c9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think we often get bills that more clearly define the difference between the people who are ruling in the interests of the wealthy and high-income earners, and the people who care about middle-income New Zealanders and about common sense. I throw back to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Revenue, his comments that helped him do so well at a previous election, and I point out to him that this bill, the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, is not about revenue in the end. I agree with him on that. It is about a brake on transferring wealth to avoid the revenue system in other ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EHe knows well the thousands and thousands of cases of Kiwis who through use of trust arrangements gain Working for Families. He knows of the kids of the farmers all over the country who drive Ranger Rovers to university and then get full student allowances. They drive to university in Range Rovers owned by the family trust, and then they claim allowances, while poor kids and middle-income kids\u2014people whose families are earning way below the average income\u2014are not eligible for those allowances. The Minister knows that the brake on the transfer of assets and also income to trusts is gift duty. It is one of the brakes\u2014I think administrative stuff and legal fees are one of them\u2014but it is one of the very important brakes. It does not stop the process, but it slows the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt means that for very large assets it can take decades to transfer funds from an individual to a trust, or through the forgiving provisions, which I am sure the member is aware of. I know that a lot of members opposite are aware of the provisions that forgive, and therefore gift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d255e09c7d84355906ac838735088e5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They loan and then they gift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739d5b823dcd491b874bed2d17fd211a\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, I drive a Hyundai, man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da84d7be3f484acf8f0060296b131cce\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: They loan and then they gift, and Simon Bridges is proud of it. He says \u201CI have ripped off the tax system! I make middle-income people pay tax while I avoid mine!\u201D. That is what Simon Bridges says, and he is proud of it. I think it is amazing that we have a young member who is meant to be principled but who is so proud that poor people pay tax so he can avoid it\u2014poor people pay tax so he can avoid it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to know whether the people of Ohariu-Belmont, in the Minister\u2019s electorate, are aware of that fact, because most of them are wage earners and salary earners\u2014the vast majority of them\u2014and I want to know whether they are happy with him acting for the privileged in the way he is doing now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EYou know, I agree with the vast majority of his argument on abolishing gift duty. There is not a lot of money in it\u2014there is not a lot of money in it. There is some administration involved in administering it, and there is a lot of money spent on lawyers and accountants\u2014far, far too much. I mean, there is nothing wrong with the photocopier as far as many of these trusts are concerned, in my opinion. But this change is designed to let people of privilege hide their wealth, hide their income, and rip off the State. I am sick of the biggest beneficiaries of the tax system being the rich. I am sick of the Prime Minister getting $1,000 a week in tax cuts while the GST goes up on my beneficiaries. I am sick of an arrangement being made to void the tax liabilities of people who are the wealthiest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis Minister, I believe, actually, deep down knows what he is doing is wrong. He used to have principles\u2014he used to have principles. We discussed these matters in the past. What he is doing, to suck up to his ministerial colleagues, is taking a bill through that privileges the rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022be959eaebab84992aa3cb627e7fd7ba0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be959eaebab84992aa3cb627e7fd7ba0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I was reminded, listening to the member Trevor Mallard particularly, but also to one or two of his colleagues beforehand, about a statement that Winston Churchill once made about, I think, Aneurin Bevan. He said that the honourable member should not develop more indignation than he can contain, which I think was certainly true during the previous speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a52eb30538844bb91d473ebda4002a2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a challenge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e04cfb807f34293945c632de5ca5130\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The bar might be high; I do not think the member could get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me come to some of the points he has made. I am sorry to disillusion him on a key premise of his argument, but I am not in the least unhappy about the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill being passed. I have promoted the abolition of gift duty during the time that his Government was in office and beforehand, so I am delighted to see something that I have been committed to for a long time finally being achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI listened to the arguments that essentially say that this is fundamentally unfair because somehow it is taking away a block. We know it does not actually raise any money, but it is a sort of symbolic thing that stops people from behaving in a way that we might regard as inappropriate. Well, I have two comments to make on that argument. Firstly, tax law is not about symbolism; tax law is about getting the revenue that the Government needs to perform its functions. Every member who has spoken in this debate so far acknowledges that we get no revenue, effectively, from gift duty, but the argument somehow seems to be that it is a symbolic impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second point I will make is that if we look at the other mechanisms available\u2014the social security legislation, the legislation that the Ministry of Social Development administers regarding access to the various long-term health and social subsidies\u2014we can see that provisions within those pieces of legislation can prevent exactly the type of concern that members opposite are professing this afternoon. Then, also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049f287047a541baaef330da456af19c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The student allowance legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267de9bc967dd45cfa219ad4d2fea53ec\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to that in a minute. The member made reference to the ability of people to manipulate trusts. In fact, one of the things this Government did last year was align the trust and top personal tax rates so that the logic of using a trust as an evasion or an avoidance mechanism was considerably diminished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member talks about Working for Families and he talks about student allowances. We have made it very clear. We legislated, in the wake of last year\u2019s Budget, for definition changes for the purposes of income affecting Working for Families. Work is under way, it was announced earlier this year, on student allowances\u2014that is about to follow. I am trying to put before the member the fact that a comprehensive suite of measures is being put in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174e21c0ccfc4b7191edf725ddccb5f0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister just confirmed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c596d7e3f8e4a7ca52181ffd8826952\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Confirmed what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221841df7c76d64a66866e252a5e5ad6cb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Confirmed that you can drive the trust Range Rover and then get a student allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d131b322f8c4c31866664e9c8f98756\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute nonsense. No, one cannot. A funny claim was made at one stage by the Labour Party in the Finance and Expenditure Committee that somehow one could get all one\u2019s school fees exempted. We went and checked that, and no one found any record to give any substance to that claim. I say to the member that the Range Rover claim comes into the same category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis issue is a simple one of administrative efficiency. We get no money from this tax, we spend about half of what we actually get on administering it, and there is a massive compliance cost on people for being part of it. It is a no-brainer, when we have other measures in place to address the concerns that members opposite raise, that we need not continue with a tax that was put in place in the 1880s\u2014it has been around since 1885\u2014in an entirely different environment from that which prevails today. Members opposite are arguing a bit of nostalgia politics. I would not call it envy politics. It is: \u201CLet\u2019s keep what we\u2019ve always had, because it has always been there.\u201D Under that scenario, we would never make any change whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis is a tax whose time has been and gone. This is a tax that most New Zealanders will be pleased to see the back end of. The demise of this tax was well and truly foreshadowed. It is now time to perform the last rites on it, and this legislation does precisely that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3c72045427649c78c01104f24743bb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3c72045427649c78c01104f24743bb8\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow on from the Minister of Revenue\u2019s comments and also those of some of my colleagues. I now have a copy of the regulatory impact statement in front of me. I enjoy reading regulatory impact statements, but this one is of particular interest to me because now I understand why the Finance and Expenditure Committee was concerned about it. I want to read a paragraph from it, then reflect on another element of it, because it has a detailed analysis of where this $60 million to $70 million has come from. \u201CWe recommend that gift duty be repealed on the basis of enhanced efficiency, simplicity and administrative costs and the significant reduction of private sector compliance costs (although fiscal cost is also a relevant consideration). We believe that gift duty does not fulfil its current objectives and the risks of its repeal are low. However, it is not possible to precisely determine the extent to which gift duty alleviates issues such as income tax minimisation, social assistance targeting and defeat of creditors. Therefore, it is important that affected government agencies monitor the effects of gift duty repeal on their areas and make any necessary operational changes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhat is also instructive\u2014and I am so glad I was referred to this\u2014is the Government agencies that Treasury and the Inland Revenue Department consulted on this measure. There were the obvious ones\u2014the Ministry of Economic Development, the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Social Development, and the Housing New Zealand Corporation, because they are all relevant\u2014but also the New Zealand Police. I think the New Zealand Police is in that mix because of the whole risk area around money-laundering. I think the Minister should give us a little bit more of a discussion point around what these different Government agencies have done, or are planning to do, in order to address issues such as income tax minimisation, social assistance targeting fraud, and defeat of creditors. I would have thought defeat of creditors would be a matter of significant substance for the Government to consider in these circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI come to the question of how much this measure will save the private sector. Various Government members have chipped across the Chamber about how much it is costing the private sector to be exposed to the gift duty regime. I could not quite understand where the compliance costs of $70 million had come from, but now I do understand. So I would like to take the time of the House to explain very carefully where the $70 million comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EUnder standard gifting programmes to family trusts, a number of deeds are required that must be filed with the Inland Revenue Department, in addition to gift statements. Initially, a deed of sale is required when the asset is transferred to a trust. Then a deed of acknowledgment of debt is drawn up, and annual deeds of forgiveness are required to reduce the outstanding debt. The average cost quoted by practitioners is $285 plus GST to draw up the annual deed of forgiveness and to file it along with the gift statement. If this cost is grossed up to reflect the 225,000 gift statements filed each year, it reveals more than $70 million in annual costs to the private sector, excluding the initial costs of setting up the gifting programme, the deed of sale, and the deed of acknowledgment of debt. Well, I find that extraordinary. I do not know whether others find that extraordinary, as well. But what the Government is essentially accepting as the basis for its claim that this measure will save $70 million is the fact that the regime we have in place at the moment actually allows only $27,000 per year to be transferred without any tax being paid, and what the Government wants is for people to be able to transfer the lot instantly, in 1 year, with no tax implications whatsoever. That is exactly what will happen, and that is exactly what the legislation was kept in place to ensure would not occur, for a whole lot of other reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI recognise that the social assistance targeting does use a different set of criteria, and often it is the conflict between the criteria that confuses people. They think they can gift up to $27,000 a year, or forgive $27,000 a year of a loan, but, in fact, the social security amount will be $5,000 a year. Of course, the department can go back year after year, over 5 years, to look at whether a person has deprived themselves of an asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI remember when the surcharge was in place. A relatively new member of Parliament at the time, who had come in at the same time as me, one Michael Laws, went around the country explaining to people that they could enter into a gifting programme in order to avoid paying the surcharge. He basically said that for 5 years a person had to gift up to $5,000 a year, but once they had got past those 5 years, where the claw-back applied, they could gift up to $27,000 a year without any worry in terms of shifting that asset. So in actual fact there will be situations where the Government is saying that it will make it absolutely crystal clear that there is no limitation in terms of the transfer of the asset, other than changes that may be made directly to the social security scheme as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI have not gone into the question of the creditors, because I am a little bit worried about where that might take us. When the Government of the day repealed the estate duty, the gift duty, it said, was retained for an interim period, but what I am really unclear about is what processes have been put in place in order to secure those three areas: first, the social security regime; second, the protection of creditors, which is the one that particularly concerns me; and, third, the area of protection in relation to the question of the means-testing regimes that might apply, and also to other areas of income tax. What I am unclear about is whether the Government has actually taken that additional step to provide for this coverage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not believe that it is unreasonable for the Opposition to want to see something a little bit more than the regulatory impact statement that has been prepared. What the Government has not said is why it thinks it is acceptable that entire assets can be transferred with no implications for taxation or any other purposes. Why is that the driver? It seems to me that having a regime in place that allows an asset to be transferred, without tax implications, at $27,000 a year does stop people from potentially income splitting. It stops people from potentially transferring major assets over to the ownership of someone else in order to avoid something that they themselves find they are subject to. If it really is to protect themselves against creditors, then that, obviously, is a major worry to all of the SMEs\u2014the small and medium sized enterprises\u2014from one end of the country to the other that find themselves at the end of queue after queue after queue, trying to get money off people who have declared themselves without assets. They are unable to claim their asset off them, because they have transferred it in one fell swoop, rather than having to go through this gifting regime. I do not think the Minister has taken seriously enough the issues we have raised. I hope he will take another call, actually work through each of those different areas, and explain to us what steps the Government has asked each of those departments to put in place to make sure that this measure does not have the impact that I think the regulatory impact statement has alerted the House to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen the regulatory impact analysis was done there were five options put forward for the Government\u2019s consideration. I want to know why this particular option was the preferred option. I turn particularly to the question of creditor protection. There is a view that creditors are given some protection by gift duty because defaulting debtors are unable to transfer assets out of their name without either becoming liable for gift duty or entering into a gifting programme. I guess that is one of the advantages of the system as it is at the moment. It is not so much the amount of tax that it collects; it is the fact that people construct their gifting programme over a longer period of time in order to avoid paying the tax. So, in fact, not paying the tax is part of what it is designed to achieve. The regulatory impact statement talked about the result of gifting programmes being that the person who is transferring an asset receives a corresponding debt asset by virtue of the interest-free, on-demand loan that is exchanged with the recipient in satisfaction of a market value sale. The diminishing amount of the outstanding debt remains, because it can be forgiven only at a rate of $27,000 every 12 months in order to avoid gift duty. I am aware of some instances where the issue has arisen that the $27,000 has been gifted within a 12-month period\u2014because it is not a calendar year; it is a 12-month period. I know a constituent who entered into a gifting arrangement where they were on one side of the line instead of the other. It was in the next financial year but was within the 12-month period. But, anyway, they had managed to get themselves in a bit of bother over that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut the point was that a debt valued at $1 million would take an individual 38 years to completely forgive, if one was avoiding gift duties\u2014if that was the point of it. The unforgiven portion of a debt under a gifting programme can be demanded in order to satisfy creditor claims against the transferor. If gift duty is repealed, gifting programmes will no longer be necessary, because the value of allowable gifts would be unlimited. Therefore, when a person transfers a large asset, there will no longer be any portion of its value immediately available to be clawed back. I think this is a serious issue. It is probably one of the most serious issues, and that is because, obviously, an official assignee looking at a bankrupt situation would be able to use this as some leverage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253664b77cf1a437d86cf351e0b5b8cf0\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I was talking about creditor protection concerns and referencing the regulatory impact statement that accompanies this legislation. I had just got to the point where I was identifying how the officials who wrote that report had decided that that would not be a major problem. Essentially, it was because people involved in gifting arrangements were not going bankrupt left, right, and centre, and therefore it could not possibly be a problem. But my problem is that this gifting programme allows gifting of $27,000 a year. People who do not care about the tax implications can simply gift an entire property and pay gift duty on it, but people who want to avoid paying gift duty simply have to limit gifts to $27,000 a year. Somebody who was coming up to bankruptcy would have the ability to gift away an entire asset, and therefore take it outside the disposition provisions of the Property Law Act. That is an issue that is raised in the regulatory impact statement. It talks about the change of the wording in that Act from \u201Cintention to prejudice\u201D to \u201Cintention to defraud\u201D, and the fact that those words have not been defined by the New Zealand courts. Given the lack of clarity, this is something we will have to keep an eye on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe areas of potential risk for the Government are listed in quite some detail in the regulatory impact statement, and I will come back to that in a later call, but I will just talk about the Ministry of Social Development benefits, the residential care subsidy, the Working for Families tax credits, student allowances, State housing, legal aid\u2014and the Government has a legal aid bill before the House; it very narrowly passed its first reading last night\u2014child support, relationship property disputes, enduring powers of attorney, and trust law concerns\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a27b93d4a3f240fdb1c2997016871dec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a27b93d4a3f240fdb1c2997016871dec\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I am a rugby player. I love playing rugby\u2014rugby league. When I played in better times, when I was a lot fitter and stronger, I used to love selling the dummy pass. I was good at it. I was good at selling the dummy pass. As long as I had somebody to my side, I could show the ball and flick it\u2014pretend that I was flicking it\u2014and I would suck in the other side and always get a score. I used to love that. But I hated it when somebody else did it to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI am using that analogy because I suggest to this Committee that when it comes to the economy and taxation restructuring, we have been sold many, many dummy passes by this Government. I mean, there was the tax switch, where the top 10 percent of income earners received over 40 percent of the tax cuts. Somehow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297beb82f15404a4c899fcc076ba3f628\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Dummy pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222797f9ac9cd04f48ba73d20727d274a7\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014dummy pass again. We were told that those wealthy people would invest their money, jobs would be created, and somehow the rest of the nation would receive the benefits of the tax cuts that had gone to the rich. Well, the reality is that we have high unemployment, a high cost of living, and families who are struggling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe can look at GST. Before the election in 2008 we were sold another dummy pass. We were told that GST would not be increased to 15 percent. Then it was increased to 15 percent and we were told that no one would be worse off. Well, the reality is that the highest 10 percent of wage earners pay 7 percent of their after-tax income as a proportion in GST, while the lowest 10 percent of earners pay an additional10 percent more than that in GST as a proportion of their after-tax income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWith the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill the proposal by the Government to abolish gift duty is another dummy pass that we have been told about. Supposedly the proposal is because gift duty generates only $1.5 million, but the reality is that the Government is doing this because the duty imposes a high level of compliance costs on the private sector. That is the Government\u2019s wording. We have been told another dummy pass: somehow, again, this is good for the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut let us be quite clear. Why is the gift duty imposed? It is to prevent tax avoidance and structuring. So when we remove gift duty, it opens up our economy to tax avoidance and structuring. When we listen to the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants, we hear that the institute outlines that a number of tax-avoidance opportunities will arise in the absence of gift duty. Those opportunities include the ability for people to split incomes with those on lower incomes, the ability to transfer incomes to loss-making entities, the ability to transfer assets in order to meet minimum thresholds for financial arrangement rules and foreign investment fund rules, the ability for those with a tax liability to divest themselves of the means to pay and then to claim hardship, and the ability to make charitable donations via others so that a higher tax rebate may be claimed. That is mind-boggling. We have been told that this legislation will be good, yet you have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229957fc7b97ee4212b37605202c3a4d99\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcbceb2ffa94faf9d135c573ff2be83\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. The New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants has outlined that tax-avoidance opportunities will arise as a result of the removal of gift duty. We have the regulatory impact statement by the Inland Revenue Department officials, who say that \u201Cit is not possible to \u2026 determine the extent to which gift duty alleviates issues such as income tax minimisation,\u201D. In other words, the removal of gift duty will give rise to tax avoidance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ENot too long ago I asked a question of the Minister of Revenue: \u201CWhat was the total amount of company tax, if any, written off by the IRD for each month since January 2009?\u201D. I will tell members the answer I received. In January 2009, $9.8 million worth of company tax was written off. In March 2009, $30.7 million worth of company tax was written off. In May 2009 it was $8.9 million, in June it was $38.8 million, in July it was $12.2 million, and so the list went on to June 2011, when it was $11.758 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0154b29bc7499b820203ea1e55e982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0154b29bc7499b820203ea1e55e982\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00220a44ddb90c964a1089a955eca6bba075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a44ddb90c964a1089a955eca6bba075\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I am disappointed. I am disappointed that the Government is trying to shut down the debate on this Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill already. I am quite fascinated, as well, because this bill is tidying up the tax system and making it simpler, and dealing with a number of remedial issues is something that we on this side of the Chamber would normally support. We do support the vast bulk of provisions in this bill, but when we get to Part 3, \u201CRemedial matters and abolition of gift duty\u201D, we see that it is just tacked on in there as if it is a remedial matter. It is actually a pretty big deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have to say that my impression of Parliament, having been here 2\u00BD years\u2014going on toward 3 years now\u2014is that we can tell a lot about a Government\u2019s priorities by the legislation it chooses to push through under urgency. Here we are, under urgency, abolishing gift duty, which is a tax cut by stealth for the wealthiest New Zealanders. It is a tax cut by stealth\u2014[Interruption] Members are getting very excited over there, because those members on the other side of the Chamber are all about privilege, and all about protecting their mates, and making life easier for their mates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThey talk about the fact that the people at the bottom of the heap, unemployed people, need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Apparently the kids of the wealthiest New Zealanders do not need to do that; they can expect a free lunch under this National Government. This is a National Government that introduced hereditary entitlement to school attendance, and now, through abolishing gift duty, it wants to make life a heck of a lot easier for those at the top of the heap while it pulls out the ladder for those at the bottom. It is yet another example of National\u2019s priorities being all about the people at the top of the heap and not about the people struggling to get by and struggling to make a living. It is all about making it more possible for people to avoid paying their fair share of tax, which is what this Government is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn fact, it is not me who is saying that; the Institute of Chartered Accountants said that about this legislation. It argued that the absence of gift duty creates the potential for people to split their income with people on lower incomes in order to avoid paying their fair share of tax. It is another example of National promoting those at the top of the heap by letting them not pay their fair share, while those at the bottom of the heap continue to get whacked. Those people who are doing a hard day\u2019s work and flogging their guts out to make this country a better place to provide for their families get whacked with higher tax under this National Government through increases in GST and the like, while the Government is going to help those people at the top of the heap who want to give their money to their kids in order to avoid paying their fair share of tax. That is what it is going to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other thing is the ability to transfer income to loss-making entities. It is another example of National providing a loophole to allow those on the highest incomes and with the most assets to avoid paying their fair share of tax. It creates the ability to transfer assets in order to meet minimum thresholds for the financial arrangement rules and the foreign investment fund rules. It is another example of National doing its bit so that its wealthy mates can avoid paying their fair share of tax. It creates the ability for someone with a tax liability to divest themselves of the means to pay and then claim hardship. They can give everything away to their kids instantly and then say: \u201COh my goodness me! I can\u2019t afford to pay any more, so you are just going to have to do whatever you do\u2014bankrupt me, even. That\u2019s OK; I am not going to pay my fair share of tax. In fact I am not going to pay my fair share of anything.\u201D That is what people can do if we abolish gift duty. They can give all their money away instantly in order to run away from their problems, and to run away from their tax liabilities. That is what this National Government is all about\u2014giving it out to the people who have the most assets and the most income and making life a bit easier for them, while the people who are working hard, who are scraping to get by, and who are paying their fair share get clobbered with paying more under this National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis abolition of gift duty very clearly sets out what this National Government\u2019s priorities are all about, and it is not about the hard-working New Zealanders, it is not about the people who are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to make life better for themselves and better for their families; it is all about the people who have the most already\u2014the top 10 percent of New Zealanders who have the lion\u2019s share of the tax cuts under this National Government. That is who it really represents. That is who it is here for. Those are the people who support National and fund its election campaigns, and they are the people whom this National Government is happy to work in the best interests of. It is not the people who are working hard, who are doing their fair share, and who are willing to pay their fair share of tax; they get to pay more through things like the increase in GST. I think that says an awful lot about this Government\u2019s priorities and that is the reason\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022196f6d88b30a4e1d985184041874956f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196f6d88b30a4e1d985184041874956f\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022d63f4b1e0b9f481f8f1bf14b1af4661c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d63f4b1e0b9f481f8f1bf14b1af4661c\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As someone who sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee that reviewed this Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, I say that there is a lot of good stuff in here. Of that there is no doubt; there is a lot of good stuff in here. As I think I said in my first reading speech on this bill, it is a real shame that the abolition of gift duty provision sort of snuck into the end of the bill. As my colleague Mr Hipkins has said, a remedial matters bill is really not the place to insert this sort of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat we have in front of us is a bill that runs to about 128 pages, so it is quite a substantial bill. As mentioned, there is a lot of good legislation in there, but about one-fifth of a page is filled by clause 110, \u201CEstate and Gift Duties Act 1968\u201D, on the abolition of gift duty. The clause is about 10 lines long, and begins \u201C(1) No gift duty is payable under the Estate and Gift Duties Act 1968 in relation to a gift made on or after 1 October 2011.\u201D With those two lines, a tax is removed that has been in place for a very, very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI am not saying\u2014and Labour made this clear at the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014that we are necessarily against the abolition of gift duty. But we have said that the analysis has not been undertaken to prove that this is the right thing to do. I acknowledge that gift duty is collecting only about $2 million a year. I also acknowledge that it is costing the Inland Revenue Department over $70 million a year. So on the surface there appears to be a little bit of discrepancy around that. But a lot of submitters came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee to say \u201CHold on a second. This has not undertaken a rigorous analysis to check that the unintended consequences of removing gift duty will not be dire for the country.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of unintended consequences of removing gift duty. Let me list just a couple. The first one is the hiding of matrimonial property. When we quizzed the Inland Revenue Department about that in the select committee, its officials said: \u201CWell, it\u2019s been looked at by another agency and we think it should be fine. But what we will do is take a look at it a couple of years down the track just to make sure that it is working.\u201D Well, that is simply not good enough. It is simply not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere is the ability to avoid creditors, but I suggest that when this bill goes through tonight, when it is signed off, there will be an absolute rush to lawyers and accountants by everyone who has a trust and who has not gifted all their assets across to that trust. That is what they will do. I know there are legal precedents that allow creditor courts to look back into gifting, and into those trusts, to see whether there is any sort of ill purpose there. But I suspect that every single person in business at the moment who has not completed their gifting programme will do so, in the knowledge that if everything is working well at the moment but turns to custard in 2 years\u2019 time, they will be fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe thing that concerns me about the removal of gift duty in Part 3 is that a hell of a lot of legislation and precedents will be set, which will be decided through the courts. They will be decided through the courts, because the law is not strong enough and there are too many holes. We have already talked about that. In my first reading speech I talked about the ability to avoid paying tax through continual gifting, and through gifting from one entity to another. One person I had an email from outlined how easy it would be to launder money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI suspect that the vast majority of people who are going to take advantage of this legislation are good, law-abiding New Zealand citizens. I suspect that the vast majority of them are going to undertake a gifting programme because they can. But there will be elements\u2014and the Minister of Revenue knows this\u2014of the business society who will take advantage of this legislation, and who are just waiting for it to come through to say: \u201CNow is my opportunity.\u201D They will grab that opportunity with both hands, and there will be tax avoidance as part of that. Even the Trustees Association said that it believed that a significant number of trusts had not met legal requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u002251f8224cb82d4a0691a3651bcaa99c54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251f8224cb82d4a0691a3651bcaa99c54\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225db4d7dd61af434da5d00a02330e3cd1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000926\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 66, Noes 54.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000927\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000928\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b2a5fb791eb490c8cbb907187175d99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000929\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 66, Noes 54.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254732237ef5b4a2697fe31255bda8e01\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002205ca7be7e07040b8aca1ef68c2a08bb3\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226729b5f5b5e0492f99bf07c7aef808d9\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000933\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 in his name to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000934\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (7BB) and substitute the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000935\u0022\u003E(7BB) Sections 3BB, 4D, 7DB, 7DC, 7DD, 7DE, 7DF, 12BB, and 79BB are treated as coming into force on 4 September 2010.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a91e182aeab547618b7de74a01aa64b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000936\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 66, Noes 54.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000937\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022960ade27aa0c4c3e912c88015c9bf760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022960ade27aa0c4c3e912c88015c9bf760\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have just been informed that we are not casting their vote, so I am not voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022386360da239044f0b13acbc7ff9c7030\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member be clear: is that for the Mana party or the Green Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222403862036e846c89caa2c5a246b33da\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY\u003C/span\u003E: The Mana party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff5d008e104417ebee9d4ba437b4134\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We have had a number of votes for the Mana party. Are all the other votes in order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224332bcf43d8e45b08a489bf1e5bc796c\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are not. Could you just delete those votes. I have just been informed we are not voting for Mana at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cbdde239cbc49d59f6df0af26104ab1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: So all those votes that were given for Mana previously are to be deleted? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118c6026df6f4888a16e3b0424a87132\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c144b0e5074addabb52e4bd5a1d81c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has to seek leave for that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1182ac432d46b59854ee18fe7edca3\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the votes posted for the Mana Party to be removed. We are not voting on its behalf at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3fd2e4b56e4c98bc4d9944257cbcea\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022026db66011594c8b8a8b7cea92bda742\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211064fd19e2b4ca7ba5b0b8daef7449f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that clause 2 as amended stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c3f6f0f6b4c43a880ab18815b376119\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take a call on clause 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddef356fd9ce420d811468410438d15a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Technically, when the vote was called for clauses 1 and 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022533fa1af80554d5f893bfee8ec60415d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I listened very carefully. You, Mr Chairperson, called for clause 1; you did not call for clauses 1 and 2. I would have taken the call if you had called for clauses 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022407c07e2c4844784979e04c81287c226\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we have got into a bit of a problem, so I seek the indulgence of the Committee. The member is seeking the call on clause 2, which was not put. Does the Committee have any objection to the member taking a call on clause 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcfdb547f31d4505accfe2a80f1bdfe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcfdb547f31d4505accfe2a80f1bdfe2\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I just make a query, as this is a matter for the Committee. You have put amendments to clause 2, have you not? So my only query is whether we have actually commenced voting on clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c2ea354f4b460ba07f04983286a5ec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We actually did vote on the Minister\u2019s amendments as amended to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254, so because we have already voted on the amendments it means we are, unfortunately, unable to go back to clause 2. We have already voted on the amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b19b62169c384de9b27ebb9953e234e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b19b62169c384de9b27ebb9953e234e3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I felt that you had sought the assistance of the Committee to deal with what is a difficult situation. I listened very carefully to the Chair, and clause 2 was not called. If clauses 1 and 2 had both been called, I would have taken the call then. In fact, I leaned over to the junior Opposition whip and I asked when clause 2 would be called. I really felt that your asking the Committee whether anyone objected to my taking a brief call on clause 2 under these circumstances would be useful. I do not think there is any point in recalling the Speaker back for this if we can resolve it as a Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636cc7b5222b49198580fceb84b3f1b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I accept what the member says, and I am prepared to ask the Committee to let the member have a call. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8b2f9ceb03b437b9deefc73eac560f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8b2f9ceb03b437b9deefc73eac560f4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I shall be mercifully brief, as a result of the indulgence of the Committee. I wanted to take a call on clause 2 of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill because it is, of course, the commencement clause. There are several commencement dates. They traverse all the different elements of this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason why I wanted to raise this clause in the Committee of the whole House is there is a significant discussion in the regulatory impact statement about the trust law concerns that arise from this change to the law. This is the issue that I think is particularly relevant to the commencement dates that have been chosen. \u201CThe Law Commission is currently undertaking a review of trust law in New Zealand and is expected to release an issues paper shortly. Officials have met with the Law Commission to discuss concerns and will continue to follow the Commission\u2019s progress. The review will broadly consider the various uses of trusts where legal ownership of property is transferred to a trust but control and enjoyment of that property is retained. New forms of regulation such as a central trust register and the compulsory filing of annual trust accounts are among the ideas that have been raised for reform. Such reforms would help deal with information concerns that may arise as a result of the repeal of gift duty. The Law Commission\u2019s work is ongoing and may continue for some time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe point I wanted to make is that given that work is being undertaken to address a number of the concerns we have raised about the exposure the Government allows by abolishing the gift duty, for it to do so prior to the completion of this work and the work of a number of departments is, I think, more than unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e723623f6b4ee3b71b7ef8d533077d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that, and thank you for the Committee\u2019s indulgence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d6370bbd9594408a71ab8f22a58076d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000961\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000962\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e95ade2c53b416eacb798e43f25ab0e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8308e5d173b49239b97494e4218ca40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8308e5d173b49239b97494e4218ca40\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. The bill before us is about simplifying the tax system so that it works more efficiently and operates in a way that reduces compliance costs for New Zealanders, thereby providing an environment that supports growth. These are obviously matters of particular interest at a time of global economic uncertainty, and it is pleasing that a large number of the measures in the bill were welcomed by members on all sides of the Chamber during the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne prominent feature of this bill is the proposed abolition, from 1 October of this year, of gift duty. It is fair to say that that measure did not receive a universal welcome from all members of the Committee, and it was probably the cause of the most vigorous debate on this legislation during that stage. In my view, however, it is right that gift duty, which has long since ceased to fulfil its function and instead imposes unjustifiable compliance costs, should be relegated to history. It has been around since 1885 and has been largely ineffective in recent years, in that it raises barely more than the revenue it costs to operate the system, while imposing significant compliance costs on taxpayers. Concerns about the matter can easily be addressed by existing social and other legislation administered by other Government agencies. The review that preceded the decision to abolish gift duty was initially a review of the threshold at which it applied, and it became obvious during that review process that there was little point in adjusting the threshold, and that the tax was so ineffectual that we should remove it altogether, and so it has come to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlthough much of the attention during the Committee stage focused on the abolition of gift duty, it is worth reminding members that there are a number of other important aspects of this legislation. One such significant proposal will help make our Public Service more efficient. Changes to the secrecy and information-sharing provisions in the tax administration rules will bring the Public Service more into line with today\u2019s customer service expectations and help improve efficiency across the Public Service. The present secrecy rules are too restrictive and do not, for instance, allow a non-English speaker or someone who has hearing difficulties to have a relative or a friend helping them, even if they have the taxpayer\u2019s permission. Clearly, a dose of common sense is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe information-sharing amendments in this bill will result in improvements in service provision and accuracy, efficiency\u2014by eliminating duplication of effort\u2014and the detection and prevention of fraud. These changes will result in a more efficient Public Service, providing services that are more tailored to the customer\u2019s needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes a number of proposed changes to the rules on the tax disputes process, which complement major changes made by the Inland Revenue Department to the way in which it currently administers the tax disputes process. Our tax system relies on voluntary compliance, and it is therefore appropriate that disputes, which inevitably arise, are resolved quickly and efficiently for both parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes a number of matters relating to the recent Canterbury earthquakes. The most significant of these is the introduction of roll-over relief for depreciation recovery income. This will apply to cases where an asset is replaced and the insurance or compensation would otherwise have given rise to such income. The timing of income from the proceeds of business interruption insurance is also being changed, with effect from 4 September 2010. The bill also proposes to relieve interest charged on overdue tax for some overseas workers in New Zealand who came here to assist following the earthquakes. These workers have unexpected tax to pay as a result of their stays in New Zealand being longer than anticipated. The Government wants to encourage productive investment in Canterbury, and these measures will help to achieve that. Officials are still considering further earthquake-related tax issues, and they will be brought to the attention of the House as and when it is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn addition, this bill reduces tax for non-residents investing in New Zealand through New Zealand portfolio investment entities. There was some rather technical discussion in the early part of the Committee stage about these particular provisions. I should point out that this is an important set of reforms, which is designed to assist New Zealand to potentially become a hub for the investment of international funds. By improving efficiency and removing undue compliance costs, this bill helps create an environment that supports growth, while maintaining the integrity of our tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is significant legislation, and substantial effort has been put into it by officials and drafters to get it to this point. I also acknowledge the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its thorough consideration of the bill, for its good work, and for the recommendations that it has brought forward, which have been adopted. I am very pleased to commend the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5e5d46291714eb6ab473a871f37ceb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5e5d46291714eb6ab473a871f37ceb9\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As the Minister of Revenue said, there is some very good legislation in the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. The Finance and Expenditure Committee went through it with a fine-tooth comb, and on nearly every single point we came to agreement and consensus, and we agreed that this is fantastic legislation. This bill as it stands reaches to about 130 pages, and on about 129 \u00BD of these pages we were in full agreement, but there were two lines in this bill that we did not agree on, and those were lines at the very end of this bill, in clause 110 of 110 clauses. Those two lines read: \u201CNo gift duty is payable under the Estate and Gift Duties Act 1968 in relation to a gift made on or after 1 October 2011.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThat is the shame of this bill. Labour will not be supporting this bill, because of those two lines. We believe that the abolition of gift duty is not a good step for New Zealand or the New Zealand tax system. As the Minister mentioned, gift duty has been around since 1885. This measure was part of the Estate and Gift Duties Act. Estate duty was abolished about 30 years ago, but gift duty was left intact, for a very good reason, and that is because legislators understood that gift duties stopped avoidance behaviour, which we are very, very concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs we know, in the last few Budgets under Labour and National the Inland Revenue Department has been given significant amounts of money to chase those who avoid tax. I think in excess of $100 million has been provided to chase those who are avoiding tax. As officials of the Inland Revenue Department will know, this bill will in fact make it easier for certain sections of our society to avoid tax, and that $100 million will have to be spread a lot wider, as the department seeks to find a lot of avoidance activity that will take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ELet me give members an example. There are 325 fraud cases being looked at by the Inland Revenue Department at the moment, and four of those cases total $420 million\u2014just four of them. We have received advice that, in fact, if the House abolishes gift duty, there will be a lot more of this money-go-round, as it will make it incredibly easy. In fact, it will drop any barrier to the movement of money between legal entities, trusts, companies, and whatever. This just adds to the overall complexity that the Inland Revenue Department faces in terms of chasing those who defraud the tax system, or who engage in avoidance behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI would like\u2014and I very rarely do this\u2014to read out a good chunk of Labour\u2019s minority report on this bill. It is not very long, but it is very important. We said: \u201CNew Zealand Labour \u2026 believe the analysis upon which the gift duty abolition proposal is based is fundamentally flawed because it does not adequately take into account the full range of potential tax avoidance opportunities.\u201D We grilled the Inland Revenue Department on this issue. In my short, brief experience in this House and in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Inland Revenue Department officials are very, very good at what they do. They answer questions brilliantly, but I got the very strong impression that they were operating under orders saying: \u201CThis is what the Minister wants, and this is what this Government wants; therefore, do it. Ram it through.\u201D It was probably one of the very few times when I was not convinced that the Inland Revenue Department was happy with the legislation going through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs mentioned, there are 130 pages in the legislation, and 129 pages were actually very good. We all agreed about it. It makes the tax system more efficient, as the Minister outlined. The Minister himself outlined some of the measures we all agreed on\u2014they are great, but the abolition of gift duty is not one of those. We also said: \u201Cno sensitivity analysis has been provided. No options analysis has been provided. The policy process would not meet the standards expected under a thorough Regulatory Impact Statement.\u201D This bill gets rid of a tax that has been there for well over 100 years. We expected a lot more. We said we were \u201Cconcerned that the analysis does not address any of the social equity concerns raised by a number of submitters and Labour members on the committee. [We] believe, in the first instance, that any legislation proposing the abolition of gift duty should [at least] be delayed until the Law Commission\u2019s review of trust law is complete.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe made this clear; we asked the officials why they could not hold off. We asked them to just hold off, and then if the Law Commission came out with a ruling, a strong view, or a strong recommendation on trust law, they could bring it back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and we would consider it. We would consider it; we understand the compliance costs related to administering this tax. But they would not hear of that. They would not hear of that, because the Minister Peter Dunne made a deal with National, and National accepted that deal as part of his support. It will be bad law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c0b3022afe46b3a7f7362c2e9d06d3\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Give it up, Stuart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a024e43caebc4863a15ee025163edd27\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It has resulted in bad, inequitable law, and Mr Bennett knows that. I bet that Mr Bennett on 2 October, or maybe midnight of 1 October, or midnight on 31 September, will be going straight to his tax accountant to say: \u201CAnything I have not gifted into any of my trusts, move them across now.\u201D He may have to stand in line, because I suspect there is a whole lot of people lining up at the moment, as was said to me by a trust lawyer in Napier. A trust lawyer in Napier who makes a lot of money out of this sort of stuff said to me that he has major concerns about this provision. He has major concerns about this\u2014about the equity. An accountant said to me that this is not good law\u2014this is not good law. In fact, the only person who believes that this is good law is Peter Dunne. I do not know whether John Key\u2019s Government was hoodwinked, or what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8ff780c23340ef919ba710a1e21df3\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you worried?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8999fb169fa4aa5b38de22760df108d\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I am worried because this legislation will screw a hell of a lot of New Zealanders. Like a lot of tax legislation put through by that member\u2019s party, it is not good for 90 percent of New Zealanders. His party is being consistent, this is consistent tax legislation, because it favours the wealthy few at the risk of the great many. New Zealand Labour members believe in a fair tax regime that promotes social and fiscal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232257206875940b697a58f8669248e8b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I advise the House that politics, as we all know, is the art of the possible. The possible we will explore today is good order. There are 402 Standing Orders in this place. They grant us good grace and good order, and an opportunity for all members to make a commanding contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f461295687435f9a3ceacb0c915ec8\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants submitted that although it welcomed the abolition of gift duty, in its view there are \u201Ca number of tax avoidance opportunities that may arise in the absence of gift duty\u201D. The institute went on to list five. Part of the reason why not much money was collected under gift duty is that there is ignorance of the law. Let me give members one example. I have a friend who is a wealthy individual, and we were talking about how hard it is for young people to buy houses. He said he helped both of his children to buy houses; he gave them $100,000 each. I said: \u201CYou gave them $100,000 each?\u201D, and he said \u201CI gave them $100,000 each.\u201D I asked whether he paid gift duty on that, and he said no, he did not pay any gift duty on that. I asked whether he knew that any gift over $27,500 attracted gift duty. He said: \u201COh, shivers. No, I didn\u2019t know that.\u201D But ignorance is no defence\u2014ignorance is no defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhat we should have done in this House is wait until the Law Commission\u2019s report came out, done a thorough study on the impacts of the abolition of gift duty, and then made an informed decision. This is a rushed decision, which the Inland Revenue Department knows will have significant impact upon its ability to chase those who engage in avoidance and fraudulent behaviour. This is not good legislation. Labour will not back it. We think this is rushed, and we think this is legislation at its very worst. The abolition of gift duty should not go ahead. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u0022027495acba5544efa228b7ce8e872bc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022027495acba5544efa228b7ce8e872bc0\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call tonight on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill third reading. Before I touch on gift duty, which is obviously a pretty contentious issue in this debate, I will reflect on some of the other things this bill does, because people listening to the debate this afternoon could be forgiven for thinking that that was pretty much all that was in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the comments of the previous speaker, Stuart Nash, who made the point that there are a lot of good tax changes in this bill, and I think they deserve to be put on record, although I know that the Minister of Revenue referred to them, of course. One of the key changes we looked at was the information-sharing powers that the Inland Revenue Department holds, and the restrictions on its ability to do that. The Finance and Expenditure Committee certainly came to the view that the law was overly restrictive the way it was. We have come up with what I think is a good framework going forward, to enable sensible sharing of information between the department and other Government agencies. As a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee I certainly look forward to reviewing how that change operates in the years to come, if I am lucky enough to stay on that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe bill improves the tax disputes process, tidies up tax pooling rules, and deals with some overtaxation of non-resident investors in portfolio investment entities, ensuring, effectively, that people are taxed in broadly the same manner that they would be taxed if they invested directly in those domestic assets. The Minister also mentioned tonight in his contribution the further Supplementary Order Papers we have seen that tidy up some other tax issues relating to insurance payouts and the rebuild in Canterbury. Of course, this House is always very supportive of any aid in that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EJust coming back to gift duty very briefly, I touch on the fact that although it has been well traversed that this is a tax that raises very little in revenue terms\u2014$1 million gross; half a million dollars or less net, and something like 98 percent of all compliance that goes through the department in relation to this results in no tax payable\u2014it is not unfair to say that there are issues that have to be looked at in relation to how people can divest themselves of assets, and ensure that that is not done in an inappropriate way and that it is not done to defeat creditors. But I think the point that has been missed in the debate so far is that this is tax legislation, and tax law is not the place to ensure that the legislation is correct around asset transfers and the protection of creditors. Those provisions do exist, and the contentions from Labour members that suggest that now it will be all on for man and beast, and everyone can pass assets off to anyone they like and avoid anything with impunity, are, frankly, wrong. There are significant powers already in the insolvency legislation and in wider legislation to ensure that gifts that are made solely with the purpose of defeating a creditor, or solely with the purpose of entitling oneself to more Government assistance, are able to be set aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIf the ongoing monitoring of the position post the abolition of gift duty suggests that more work is needed, then certainly we will be very happy to look at that. But as a matter of tax law, this tax is defunct, it is obsolete, and all it does is create an industry of compliance with tax lawyers and accountants. It serves no net purpose to the Government\u2019s fiscal books, and its time has come. I think the Minister was absolutely right when he said that there is no rational reason for keeping it as a tax law any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ECan I also touch on the fact that under existing structures, assets can be divested instantaneously. A debt back is created and then that debt back goes through a process of forgiveness over a period of years, at $27,000 a year per person, or $54,000 a year per couple. The asset itself goes on day one, with or without gift duty. If there is concern about protection of specific assets, under current laws that asset\u2014with gift duty, without any penalty or payment\u2014can be divested immediately, with all capital gained from that date. The only asset that remains, as I say, is a financial one, which at day one is reduced usually by $54,000 across a couple, and that amount reduces in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003ETo suggest that the picture will change significantly, as one might have thought from listening to this debate, I think is misleading. I think this is the right step as a matter of tax reform. We will continue to monitor it to see how it evolves, but my guess is that the change will not be anything like as significant in terms of asset divestment and avoidance as has been suggested in this debate. The biggest change that we will see is the people of New Zealand no longer having to pay out $70 million to lawyers and accountants to do something that has no public good. For that reason I am very happy to commend the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5086651968e4cb4884c41c2576e017b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5086651968e4cb4884c41c2576e017b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E There are a number of features of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill that fully meet the intent of something that is described as a tax administration and remedial matters bill. What Amy Adams talked about was not one of them. The abolition of gift duty does not fit within the ordinary definition of tax administration and remedial matters. That has been the Opposition\u2019s No. 1 objection to the use of this particular vehicle for the abolition of gift duty. It is a policy matter of some substance and deserves to be dealt with by a bill that actually addresses policy issues, rather than it simply being seen as a matter of tax administration. But there is a reason why this Government has chosen it as a matter of tax administration, and I will come to that shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs members of this House will know, I am a great fan of something known as a regulatory impact statement. I sometimes feel like I am the only person who reads them, but on this occasion I know that is not the case, because every Labour member on the Finance and Expenditure Committee read the regulatory impact statement, and they were unimpressed. They were so unimpressed that they actually challenged the content of the regulatory impact statement in their report back to the House. I think that is a significant issue and something this House should take very seriously. If we cannot rely on the regulatory impact statement to provide us with the basis for quality decision-making, then heaven help us, because, actually, the people of New Zealand put us here to do something a little bit more than a once-over-lightly, and the regulatory impact statement is supposed to offer slightly better than the options offered in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet us look at the options, but first I should make this point to the House, because I think members just do not get what the regulatory impact statement is for. It is supposed to identify the mischief that is to be remedied by the particular proposal that the Government has adopted. It then should identify a range of options that the Government could adopt, choosing the least regulatory intervention all the way through to a major regulatory intervention. All of those options would be put on the table, and then there would be a cost-benefit analysis, a risk-opportunity analysis\u2014all of that work would be done, and that is where the regulatory impact comes in. There would also be consultation with major players. Well, the consultation on this particular one has been rather an eye-opener for me, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet us look at the options that the regulatory impact statement put on the table. The first option was to narrow the scope of gift duty. It looked at the people whom the previous speaker was talking about\u2014the family trusts, the individuals, and the closely held companies. It then looked at the concerns around income tax minimisation, social assistance targeting, and defeating creditors, which largely relate to gifts between those individuals, and, therefore, looked at limiting the rules around gift duty to those particular individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second option was to raise the threshold at which gift duty applies, noting, as the regulatory impact statement did, that the current threshold of $27,000 per annum for the gifting programme had been fixed in 1984 and had not been revised since then. There was a view that it had not kept up to date with inflation. The regulatory impact statement identified that if the threshold had been adjusted, it would be $78,291, but it said that that would \u201Cdilute gift duty\u2019s protective effect against these forms of targeted gifting by speeding up the rate at which assets may be transferred.\u201D But, actually, getting rid of gift duty does not just speed it up; it completes the process in one fell hit. So I do not know why that was a good argument, but I am sure that somebody in the bowels of whatever department wrote the paper will understand why that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOption three was to remove the need to file gift statements for non-liable gifts. I found this absolutely fascinating because we have heard a lot of people saying that about 200,000 gift statements have to be filed each year. Well, that is quite interesting, because the regulatory impact statement states that \u201CThe most significant part of compliance costs is not completion of gift statements\u2014rather, it is the annual drawing up of deeds of forgiveness which require engagement with a legal practitioner.\u201D That is it. So all of this talk we have heard about the huge cost to the Government of managing the compliance cost in relation to the completion of gift statements does not stack up against the Government\u2019s own regulatory impact analysis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOption four is to move to electronic systems. Well, I was gobsmacked to find out that in fact they cannot be filed by electronic means at the moment. I do not understand why. It is to do with the original deed having to be filed along with the gift duty statement\u2014which is then photocopied and returned by post. I am sure we could do better than that. I do not know why it was ruled out. The regulatory impact statement says \u201CThe financial outlay required to upgrade systems is expected to cost within the range of $1-7 million.\u201D Within the range of $1 million to $7 million? One would think Treasury could come up with something slightly better. It sounds like the good old days when Labour was in Government and we got quotes from the Ministry of Social Development as to how much it would cost to upgrade SWIFT for a minor technical adjustment to a benefit. It was always in the millions and millions of dollars. But $1 million to $7 million to make it possible for the Inland Revenue Department to have a document scanned as an original document and signed off by somebody who would give it the status that it required? I cannot believe it. This document says a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe last option, of course\u2014they have left us only one option, the one they wanted right from the start\u2014is to repeal gift duty. The thing I find fascinating is something the previous speaker drew attention to. She said we are saving the private sector $70 million. Is that not wonderful? We are saving people $70 million by getting rid of gift duty. Well, do members know how they came up with that figure? It was on the basis that the average cost quoted by practitioners for drawing up an annual deed of forgiveness is $285 plus GST. So what she meant to say is we are saving 225,000 people $285 plus GST each, so that they can have the benefit of not paying tax on what they are gifting to somebody else in order to divest themselves of their assets. That is what this is about. The Government does not like hearing this, but this is about its priority. It is prioritising the same people it prioritised in the tax cuts. It said that 10 percent of New Zealanders would get the bulk of the benefit of the tax cuts, and that is exactly what it is doing with this measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat is what draws me to paragraph 57 in the regulatory impact statement: \u201CThe number one concern related to the repeal of gift duty from an income tax perspective has, until very recently, been the ability of individuals to reduce their taxable income by transferring their income-generating assets to a trust. High-earning individuals could transfer assets such as shares or interest-bearing savings to a trust so that the associated income accrues to the trustee. This would allow the income to be taxed at the trustee tax rate instead of at the top marginal personal tax rate.\u201D Now, listen to this: \u201CUp until 1 October 2010, this would offer a tax saving of 5%. However, alignment of the trustee and top personal tax rate from 1 October 2010 will remove this tax advantage.\u201D But that is the whole point. The Government reduced the top tax rate for its mates, and now it is giving them the total benefit by removing the gift duty, as well. Those members are saying that it makes no odds because of a change they have made to the tax system favouring the highest-income earners in this country over and above those who struggle to make ends meet every single week because of the price of milk, because of the price of fuel, and because of the price of their groceries, which just go up and up and up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis debate says a lot about this Government\u2019s priorities, and we know exactly where this will take us as we enter election time, because the people of New Zealand will know perfectly well where that party\u2019s priorities lie, and it certainly is not with average New Zealand, with every New Zealander who sees themselves disadvantaged once more by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002220143e8a76284178ab115aa3dac73a8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220143e8a76284178ab115aa3dac73a8f\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. Tax is the price we pay to live in a decent society. Tax is how we afford public hospitals so that when people get sick and have heart attacks they have a public health system that will look after them. That is why we pay our taxes. We pay our taxes so that we have a decent education system, so that our kids\u2014and all kids, wherever they are from in our country\u2014can access decent education. That is why it is important that we all pay our taxes and that we all pay them honestly and fairly. That is why the symbols around tax are very, very important. The Minister of Revenue earlier dismissed this. He said that this is merely a battle about symbols. Actually, it is not just a battle about symbols. But even if it was a battle about symbols, symbols in tax matter. The reason they matter is that if everyone thinks that everyone else is avoiding their tax, then they think it is OK to avoid paying their tax too. But if everyone thinks that pretty much everyone else is paying their fair share, then it is very likely that they will pay their fair share as well. That is what is important about the symbols around our tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, since the new-right revolution of the 1980s and the embrace of the \u201Cgreed is good\u201D culture, we have now had the development of widespread tax avoidance and a culture of widespread tax avoidance in New Zealand. We find it from the very top all the way through, but particularly amongst higher-income earners. The reason why I say that we find tax avoidance at the very top is that the banks were caught avoiding paying around $2 billion of tax. The High Court found that the banks had been illegally and unlawfully avoiding paying tax, and then eventually the banks were forced to repay around $2 billion in tax that they owed to the rest of us because they had been unlawfully avoiding it. None of those people were prosecuted. We have created the problem whereby tax avoidance has become widespread. There was a case recently where someone was caught avoiding paying a very large amount of tax, and the punishment was simply home detention. The banks themselves did not receive any punishment whatsoever. No bank executives were put in jail or anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe have a problem with tax avoidance in our country, and we have a problem with the culture around tax avoidance. That is why the gift duty issue matters so much. Aside from the content of it, it is also about the symbolism of it and about whether everyone is paying their tax. Gift duty acts as a buttress to the tax system. That is one of its purposes. One of the key ways to avoid paying tax that has emerged in New Zealand is through the use of trusts. Income-generating assets have been moved into trusts so that they are taxed at the trustee rate, rather than taxed at the marginal tax rate. Gift duty has effectively acted as a dam against large amounts of assets being transferred into trusts. It means that the asset flow going into trusts has been slowed down, and that assets can be gifted into trusts at $27,000 per year, rather than being gifted all at once. The gift duty rules, although not appearing to do a huge amount in terms of generating tax, have been acting as a large dam, preventing an even greater amount of assets from flowing directly into trusts and being lost from view once and for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis has been of major benefit to the tax system. It has generated huge amounts of information about what is going on in terms of assets and attempts to hide income-generating assets and other assets in trusts, and that has been very useful. That is why from the beginning of this debate, from the first reading, the Green Party has opposed this bill. It has opposed it because of the abolition of gift duty. We are pleased that Labour has seen the light. We wish only that National had seen the light and understands the significance of what it is doing. I suspect, unfortunately, that maybe National does realise what it is doing, or maybe it does not. But one of the effects of this bill will be that the dam will be removed. The dam that is currently operating to hold back large amounts of assets and to control their flow into trusts will be removed. A huge flow of assets will go into trusts, and from there those assets will be lost from sight to most of us, including the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOne of the arguments that the Government puts up as to why this no longer matters is the equalisation of income tax rates and the trustee rate. The only thing is that these rates will not stay the same for ever. The current Government has equalised these rates, but there is no guarantee that a future Government might not think that New Zealand having a tax system that is wildly out of skew with the tax system of most other Western countries and having a very low top marginal tax rate\u2014and I remind the House that in the UK it is 50 percent\u2014is how it should stay. New Zealand will not have a very low top marginal tax rate for ever. It has not been the case in the past, and I am sure that in the future we will have a higher marginal tax rate than we have today. At that point, once again, a gap will open up between the trustee rate and the top marginal tax rate. It is for this reason that wealthy individuals in New Zealand will be cheering with joy when this Parliament passes this bill, because they will be free to move all of their income-generating assets into trusts, in the full knowledge that were a future Government to increase the top marginal tax rate again, their assets will be safe. Their assets will be safe from their fair share of tax in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement the Inland Revenue Department unfortunately did not talk about this option, because talking about future policy changes with a change in Government was not one of the options the department was given the responsibility to talk about. But the reality is that it is a very real possibility in New Zealand that in the future we will have a higher top marginal tax rate than the trustee rate. So this bill will give a lot of people who have very large assets the opportunity to hide them away in trusts so that they do not get caught in the future. It is a very sad day, because it fundamentally undermines fairness in our tax system. Once we undermine fairness in the tax system, everybody thinks it is OK to avoid paying their taxes. They see the banks avoid paying $2 billion in taxes, but nobody gets punished and nobody goes to court. If someone illegally stole $2 billion from the Reserve Bank, would it be the case that no one would be prosecuted or get caught? Instead, the banks\u2019 executives and their advisers\u2014and PricewaterhouseCoopers was in on this\u2014unlawfully avoided paying their tax and nobody went to court. Nobody personally\u2014none of the directors or the executives\u2014ended up in court. They all got away with it. All they had to do was pay back some of the money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe problem with laws like this is that they undermine the integrity of the tax system by reinforcing the idea that the tax system has one rule for the wealthy\u2014as we are seeing tonight with a special rule for the wealthy so that they can hide their assets in trusts\u2014and one rule for wage and salary earners. Wage and salary earners have to pay their taxes; it is very hard to avoid them. That is why we have opposed this bill from the beginning. We believe that the tax system needs to be fair, and it needs to appear to be fair. Although there are many good aspects about this bill\u2014and I think there is probably cross-party support for the large majority of this bill\u2014it is fundamentally undermining some of the essential fairness elements of the tax system with these changes around gift duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that symbols do matter. This bill is about more than symbols, but symbols do matter. The Government is saying today that just as all its other tax changes have one single direction, which is to move money towards the wealthy, this bill we are debating tonight has exactly the same direction to it. When we look at each of the changes, whether it is the change to the top tax rate, to GST, or to gift duty, we see that each of them might be a relatively small amount\u2014though the tax changes were not small, and 40 percent of it went to the top decile\u2014but when we put them all together they all have the same direction of movement, which is to move wealth towards those at the top end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI tell members that if we keep adding to inequality in our country through the tax system, through the wages system, and through every other mechanism, then we will end up with a society that we do not wish to live in. If members wonder why people might not be comfortable with what is going on in Aotearoa New Zealand, then they should look at inequality and look at what bills like this are doing to inequality. They are adding to inequality, which will only make it more expensive further down the track with regard to health, education, justice, the courts, the police, and crime, because inequality produces more costs on all of those things. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022423be1da84504041b8b6113590528ad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022423be1da84504041b8b6113590528ad1\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and take a call on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. As we heard from Mr Nash earlier, most of the parts of this bill are not contentious. They are accepted by most parties in the House and by both sides of the House. Mr Nash used his speaking opportunity to focus on the abolition of gift duty. We have just heard an argument from Mr Norman that the abolition of gift duty is wrong. He said that one of the reasons we have gift duty is to restrict the transfer of assets into trusts, away from an individual taxpayer, and that it is done for the purpose of reducing one\u2019s personal income tax. But interestingly, he acknowledged that simply setting the top marginal tax rate, which is currently 33c, at the same rate as the rate for trusts negated the benefit of shifting assets into trusts. He tried to argue that the setting of those two rates at the same level would be a temporary measure until such time as a future Labour Government increased the top marginal tax rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI suggest to Mr Norman that he is absolutely wrong. He talked about the reality as being that at some stage in the future that top tax rate will rise. My advice to the people of New Zealand is not to support any political party that would want to do that, because, as we have heard, when we have a difference between those two rates, it leads to tax planning and tax avoidance. If we actually wanted to grow the economy, reduce tax avoidance, and improve the incentives to work hard and save, we would do exactly the opposite. We would be lowering tax rates\u2014we would actually lower the tax rates. If there is one thing that the ACT Party stands for, it is reducing wasteful Government expenditure and lowering taxes, and letting the people of New Zealand retain more of the income they earn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that Mr Norman talked about a top tax rate of 50 percent in the United Kingdom. It was only last week that Mr Norman was complaining about the social problems in the United Kingdom. We know that the United Kingdom is broke. We know that most of the major developed countries in Europe are broke. Why are they broke? Because they have huge amounts of wasteful Government expenditure, they have high marginal tax rates, and they provide a disincentive for people to work, to invest, and to get on. I suggest that Mr Norman look at countries in Asia\u2014the countries in Asia that are growing\u2014and look at the countries that are actually growing during this worldwide recession. What do we see in Asia? We see low rates of tax. I suggest that if the Green Party had the interests of this country at heart, it would be looking at how we reduce rates of tax, reduce wasteful Government expenditure, and provide an incentive for people to work hard and to keep more of what they earn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EMr Norman talked about the inequality. He talked about the so-called rich and the wage and salary earners. If Mr Norman was really concerned about wage and salary earners, he would be looking at how we could reduce waste and reduce the top marginal tax rate. If we had a top marginal tax rate of no more than 20c in the dollar, we would actually have the right incentives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party will be supporting this bill, and we encourage New Zealanders to give further thought to how we can reduce wasteful Government expenditure and lower tax rates. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002213839fb392514b50a55093e4844bc801\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213839fb392514b50a55093e4844bc801\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I will just follow on from the last speaker, John Boscawen, who I think made some very good points about the nature of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill and what it means for New Zealand\u2019s economic performance. This bill is good for the New Zealand economy. It is good for New Zealand taxpayers, it is good for the total tax take that New Zealand will get, and it is good for making New Zealand businesses more competitive on the world stage. It is sad that Labour and the Green Party, especially, have to come and say no to good law in this House just because they want to keep a fa\u00E7ade going in the public eye of their attack on those who are successful, those who have something, or those who have worked hard to make something of their lives and for this country. It is really sad that they cannot support good law that is simple, that has all the bases ticked, and that is in the best interests of New Zealand as a country going forward. They cannot support it, because their ideology will not allow them to. That is very sad for New Zealand. The public out there sees through Labour and the Green Party, and it realises that those parties do not actually have the best interests of New Zealanders at heart. They have only their own self-interest and what they can do during election campaigns. They try to divide and conquer a country by putting one person against another. They tell people to look over the fence, be afraid of other people, have fear of them, and try to take what they have earned, just so Labour can be in control and try to govern. Those tactics do not work any more. The world has moved on. The New Zealand public has moved on. It is time that Labour got out there and supported things that are in the best interests of New Zealand, because there is no way that we can support an industry that costs $70 million in compliance costs. Why would one put $70 million worth of compliance costs on New Zealand businesses and individuals for no real benefit other than one\u2019s political motives? It is a very sad day when Labour has to put politics above the people of New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00228929c84083374c1c864645d0fe211998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228929c84083374c1c864645d0fe211998\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. In talking to the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, I think one of the components of candidate training that should be part of compulsory learning for all wannabe politicians should be to gain an understanding of the long list of acronyms that are sometimes bandied about in Parliament and in this Chamber. In this bill, for example, the SOP introduces new measures associated with RWT on trusts and beneficiaries, QC and LAQC transition measures, and ESCT in the context of employer superannuation contribution tax. I think members get the general gist by just reeling off some of those acronyms. Well, today\u2019s new word is PIEs\u2014P-I-E-s. They are not the mince and cheese pies that Todd McClay associates himself with, but are amendments relating to the treatment of non-resident investment in portfolio investment entities, \u00E0 la PIEs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EEven the category \u201Cnon-resident\u201D is bizarre in a sense: it defines what people are not, rather than what they are. It is like \u201Cnon-M\u0101ori\u201D, which interprets a person\u2019s identity as not being M\u0101ori but does not actually tell us anything about the unique identity of those non-M\u0101ori\u2014of Irish, American, or French whakapapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ECurrently, if a foreign person invests directly in a foreign investment he or she pays no New Zealand tax. By making it more attractive for a foreign person to invest in managed funds, it will support the managed funds industry in Aotearoa, with the idea that it will lead to more jobs in providing back-office services for managed funds. Another benefit for other New Zealanders is that if we have a greater pool of funds under management, we will get economies of scale. This makes it more attractive to foreign investors, which ultimately makes it cheaper for investors in Aotearoa as well, and, for example, some of these fund managers include AMP and AXA New Zealand. It is a case of what will be good for the foreign investor will ultimately be good for Aotearoa New Zealand as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party supports an economy of investment, which leads to greater productivity and enhances well-being, so in this sense we are pleased to support the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. I have to say pretty quickly that the M\u0101ori Party considers it necessary to carefully scrutinise and manage all foreign investments by non-residents in Aotearoa. That is about protecting and preserving what is ours\u2014within our hands and within our land. It should go without saying that we support the majority of the amendments that concern further responses to the Canterbury earthquake, and the affected taxpayers in the 2010 and 2011 tax returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe major provisions allow for the roll-over of depreciation recovered to go into replacement assets. For example, suppose a building had a historical cost of $3 million, had been depreciated for tax purposes to $1 million, and was insured for replacement at $5 million. If this building was destroyed by the Canterbury earthquake, the owner would be up for a tax bill of about $600,000 on the depreciation recovered of $2 million, even though he or she would have no money with which to pay this tax. Such tax returns would represent a windfall gain for the Government from the earthquakes, which in anyone\u2019s books is pretty crazy. Basically, the effect of the amendment means that people affected by the earthquake will not have to pay tax on depreciation, as one would usually. I understand there are also write-off rules. It is proposed that the write-off rules for buildings be extended, from those buildings written off by an event, say an earthquake, to include buildings that have been destroyed as a consequence of an event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party supports the effective recovery of Christchurch, and as such we support any changes to tax law that will help to facilitate this, as a part of manaakitanga. We also wish to lift the economy of Aotearoa and support wh\u0101nau. The M\u0101ori Party is happy to support this bill at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002240c2a6a6bf0147c994b65f115eb29bf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c2a6a6bf0147c994b65f115eb29bf0\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E It has been interesting to listen to the speeches of a couple of the preceding speakers in this debate on the third reading of the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, and to note comments from Mr Bennett about how this bill serves the best interests of New Zealand. I say to that member opposite that this bill serves the best interests of a tiny percentage of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMr Boscawen from the ACT Party said that we needed to look to Asia, where they have low tax rates. Well, I say to that member opposite that we sat next to each other at the State luncheon for our retiring Governor-General today, and I am happy to pay my taxes to help pay for that lunch. There are no free lunches. If we want to live in a responsible and decent society, then paying our taxes is the price we pay for things like that, and for a multitude of other things besides. If Mr Boscawen wants to swap the life that we have to go to work in a Chinese sweatshop, pay low tax rates, and earn $200 a month to produce Adidas T-shirts with All Blacks slogans on them, then I say good luck to him\u2014go to Shanghai, or wherever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIf we want to take that thinking to its ultimate analogy we need look no further than at what happened in the United States Congress but a couple of weeks ago, where the Tea Party rump of the Republican Party forced a vote that said: \u201CWe will not support any tax increases on the billionaires of the United States, but, Mr President and those in Congress, we want you to cut Medicare, education spending, and pensions.\u201D What does that mean? It means that America has been through a financial downgrade as a result of that decision. That is where countries get to when they get into the mantra that says they should cut the taxes to the wealthy and impose the costs on the rest of society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWe need only look at the comments in the paper only today from Warren Buffett, America\u2019s wealthiest man, who said that he wants to pay more taxes and that he should pay more taxes. Or we can look at the commentary from Bernard Hickey last weekend. He said that we need a thriving middle class in New Zealand, not a situation that has seen the wealthiest 1 percent increase their share of the wealth from 7 percent to around 14 percent in the last 20 years. That is the sort of direction we are heading in with this bill, which does away with gift duty for the very wealthiest in our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EPart of the explanation for this bill was that gift duty raised only about $1 million a year and cost half that amount to administer. I say again to the Minister of Revenue that that is disingenuous, because this policy was about stopping more avoidance and structuring. The very fact so much money is spent by people on gifting arrangements suggests that people are doing very well out of it. That is what the policy is about. That is why it is there. That is the reason it should stay in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI commend my colleague Lianne Dalziel for her reading of the regulatory impact statement, particularly paragraph 57, where the department noted that, in fact, until October last year there was a greater benefit from gift duty because the tax rates were a little higher. Of course, removing that top tax rate has removed the tax advantage, so, ipso facto, we should do away with gift duty. What a lovely, logical sequence that is\u2014to set up it for the fall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI will also point out to the House what the regulatory impact statement said in respect of some of the impacts\u2014and Lianne Dalziel is right; members of the Labour Party do read the regulatory impact statements on bills like this one. The authors of the regulatory impact statement consulted all of the Government departments relevant to the repeal of gift duty. One of the commentaries came from the Ministry of Social Development, which stated that if the change were to happen, there could be some ramifications for some of the issues with residential care subsidies\u2014that is, if gift duty is repealed, people will be able to transfer all their assets into a trust instantly. At the moment, people have to stage it. They have do it by transferring $27,000 a year. The ministry also notes that it has a provision where it can look at how people might make lump-sum payments. But, here we are, with the Ministry of Social Development needing to review its administration of financial means assessment if gift duty is repealed. So it is heralded in front of us that the Inland Revenue Department will save $400,000 and what a great saving that is, but there is one Government department stating that its cost structures are likely to rise as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development went on to state that staff training would therefore be required around the operational impacts of the changes. There would also need to be complete land-title searches for properties where applicants had lived for a significant amount of time, to determine whether the property has been gifted by the applicant. The ministry has noted that this will lead to increased operational costs, so there we are. We are saying that we will save some money at the Inland Revenue Department, but we are looking at the potential for extra costs at the Ministry of Social Development. And that was without any real analysis of what this change might mean in terms of what the State has to administer in respect of residential care, where we have a carefully managed regime to ensure that people pay a fair component of the cost of residential care. Obviously, these changes could impact upon that regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development also commented about entitlements to Working for Families tax credits, an issue very dear to the Minister who introduced this bill and to the Government, which wants to crack down, we are told, on those who might be rorting Working for Families tax credits where it is not appropriate. The ministry said that there is the potential for applicants to transfer income-earning assets out of their names in order to remove income associated with the asset from their taxable income. Again, that is a consequence of this bill. It underlines the very premise that Labour has been talking about\u2014this gift duty is there not for what it brings in but for what it prevents from happening in respect of further rorting of the tax base. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThere was further commentary, from the Housing New Zealand Corporation. It was not seen as a big issue by the corporation because most of the people in State housing are not likely to be the beneficiaries of gifting arrangements, but none the less there was seen to be some risk around that issue. The corporation said that it would be on the alert for those kinds of outcomes. Child support is another area in which it is believed that the State will have to keep a watchful eye because of the fact that gift duty arrangements will be removed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThere are a number of consequences of this legislation, and Labour has said explicitly that it is not an appropriate measure to be introducing. We need an equitable tax base, most especially at this time. We need arrangements that underscore and underline that everybody pays their fair share. Gift duty has been an arrangement that simply said to people that it is there to try to ensure they do pay their fair share. It has not been a great revenue collector. It was actually pointed to after a former National Government removed estate duty in 1992 as part of a need for an ongoing protective mechanism, one that was weakened with last year\u2019s move on top tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIn summary, Labour is saying very clearly that there are good elements to this bill\u2014sensible, progressive amendments to tax law that have come through the Finance and Expenditure Committee and that Labour has supported. But when it comes to gift duty we say that it is an important protective mechanism of the tax base, that it deserves to stay in place, and that it is there to ensure that equity prevails in the tax system. We need to ensure that equity is preserved not only to balance the amount of tax that people pay to ensure that the top end of town pays its share and that tax is paid not just by the lower end of town but also to provide a signal to people that we are all part of one community and one society. When we get signals being sent consistently\u2014consistently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0bf441caad4d8199c0a5284d09b3dc\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: You should remember that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffdd9f7284d41a49c41ec1dfbb39834\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite who just intervened was asking just a few minutes ago: \u201CWell, those on the bottom end get assistance, so why not the top end?\u201D. The point is the equity of the arrangements. We must have a broad agreement that we are an equitable society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAll of the international research is saying that New Zealand is in fact a much less equitable society than it was even 10 or 20 years ago. That puts at peril our very socio-economic base. When we chip away at it time and time again with tax measures like this, we are putting at risk, I think, society itself. If people do not feel that they are getting a fair shake at things, then there will be consequences from that. We are seeing this change come through at a time when we have seen in other countries some of the consequences where inequity has come to the point where people have taken to the streets. I think we actually have to acknowledge that those risks are there for New Zealand, and every time we chip away at our tax base with measures like this\u2014rewarding the top end of town when there is no real case for it\u2014we put ourselves at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u0022506d1142f88743539a79fba0cf86244f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022506d1142f88743539a79fba0cf86244f\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and talk about some of the misinformation we have heard tonight on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill, and respond to some of the comments. We have heard about Labour\u2019s conspiracy theory, its fear, its hate, and its envy. Its whole focus, in a 127-page bill, was on one page, and that was the page with the provisions about gift duty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EYou see, gift duty does not work for anybody, but Labour is worried about it, because it has the fear and envy that some people out there are ripping off the system. Well, we have heard tonight that gift duty collects $400,000 net in tax each year, and we have heard some great conspiracy theories from the other side of the Chamber that the $70 million in compliance costs that is being paid to tax lawyers and accountants up and down the country each year may not be real. There are some fears about that. Well, let us assume the cost was half of that, or one-tenth of that. In any of those situations, reducing costs to consumers is what this Government is all about, and increasing efficiency for consumers is what this Government is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EOpposition members over there do not care about that. They care about creating some ideas of fear and conspiracy\u2014whether in respect of money-laundering or anything else like that\u2014and they seem to think that the existing legislative framework will not work. I think that is a bit of a worry. Those members are success haters, and successful people do not like the Labour Party. I find that very strange indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EMost of the stuff in this 127-page bill we are finishing off tonight is about portfolio investment entities (PIEs). We have land PIEs, wholesale PIEs, retail PIEs, overseas foreign investment PIEs, variable-rate PIEs, and multi-rate PIEs. I have to say that we have not heard much about those tonight, but we have heard a lot about one page in the 127-page bill: the issue around gift duty. Maybe Labour members ate lots of pies during the dinner break, and that is why they are focused on one particular page. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThis bill is good for New Zealand. It reduces costs to mums and dads up and down the country. They will save $70 million in fees for just one page in this legislation. They will have the ability through the changes in the PIE rates here, through their KiwiSaver accounts, to save significant money through investments. But the prior member pointed out, and believed, that this bill had no benefits for mums and dads. Well, I can tell Mr Burns that lots of mums and dads invest in PIEs, and they will benefit significantly out of the tax changes in this bill, despite the comments of that member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EFinally, the nature of the fear and envy that exists tells us a lot about what goes through the minds of the Labour members. They are worried about one paragraph in a 127-page bill. They are not worried about growth and reducing costs to taxpayers up and down the country; they are worried about one paragraph in a 127-page bill. That paragraph would probably put out of work a whole bunch of tax accountants and lawyers up and down the country. They make on average about $500,000 a year, and this bill will reduce compliance costs by $70 million a year. Those people could be gainfully employed doing something productive and enterprising in New Zealand, and that is what we want to see\u2014not them running around, trying to cheat the taxpayers in relation to tax codes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EAll the fear and envy that those members have put forward is covered by other legislation, and we heard from the Minister of Revenue earlier tonight that that is taken into account. So for the people listening out there who have heard those members, the people who are worrying about the transfer of assets, I say that it has all been taken into account\u2014from money-laundering through to relationship property and everything in between. It is a shame and a misfortune that some of the comments from the Opposition tonight have been putting fear in the good people of New Zealand. I think that is a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It will reduce the cost to New Zealand, and it is another step in the right direction for a Government that is looking at reducing costs to mums and dads out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4a680e8a5894430827fa92d3cc84faa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4a680e8a5894430827fa92d3cc84faa\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the National member Aaron Gilmore, who has just resumed his seat, that Labour believes in a fair tax regime that promotes social and fiscal equity. Gift duty is part of a progressive tax system that does not favour or disadvantage any member of society. In reply to Aaron Gilmore\u2019s misinformed speech, let us look at the title of this bill, which is the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. Unfortunately I did not have the chance to take a call in the Committee stage on this particular clause, because my learned colleagues Lianne Dalziel and Iain Lees-Galloway got the calls before me. With respect, the title is rather misleading. It is wrong to use a bill that is supposedly for administration and remedial matters to push through the abolition of a tax. Legislation such as this should be reserved for technical changes and ought to be uncontroversial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAs I said in my second reading speech in July, apart from the provisions relating to gift duty Labour supports the contents of this bill and, in the normal course of events, would vote for it. However, due to those concerns we have to vote against the entire bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIn the Committee stage Lianne Dalziel asked a very good question about portfolio investment entities (PIEs) and the Minister of Revenue gave a very good answer. I also had a question for the Minister but, again, I did not have an opportunity to ask it. The question was about the application dates. The rule applicable to category 2 PIEs is proposed to apply from the start of the 2012-13 income year, but those applicable to category 1 PIEs are to apply from the date of Royal assent. The application date for category 1 PIE rules has been brought forward in response to submissions and, according to the regulatory impact statement, it will allow some funds to launch prior to April 2012. No explanation was given as to why a similar starting date is not proposed for the category 2 PIE rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EMuch has been said about clause 110, namely, the abolition of gift duty. So far all explanations and rationale, shall I add, from the Minister and the National MPs are focused on one single issue\u2014that is, gift duty imposes a high level of compliance costs on the private sector and no longer raises any significant revenue. I also said in the Committee stage that Minister Dunne got it wrong when he said that estate duties were abolished in 1992 but gift duties remained in place for revenue purposes. That statement actually begs the question. The Minister confirmed in his previous speeches that revenue from gift duty was about $1 million per annum, but the cost to the Inland Revenue Department to administer it was about half a million dollars. On the other hand, the Minister said the compliance costs on the private sector amounted to $70 million a year, plus the law was too old, and so on, so it must go. I say to the Minister that gift duty was originally implemented to prevent people from circumventing the estate duty. Estate duty was abolished in 1992, but gift duty remained in place to prevent people from giving away large assets in order to avoid paying creditors, obtaining access to Government benefits, or avoiding tax liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt has been argued that the abolition of gift duty will allow people to more easily hide assets in trusts to avoid creditors and tax, and use this opportunity to obtain access to rest home subsidies, for example. This was one of the major concerns in reviewing whether gift duty should be abolished. A number of lawyers and accountants made good quality submissions, and, to be fair, they made submissions in good faith\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972b2b3621ec48ef8054319ea814fa50\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No self-interest, eh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d898428d00e47c79d0c4c878d3ee0f4\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: It was not because they might lose the opportunity to earn fees, as implied by the Minister of Revenue and the Minister who is interjecting. The submission from the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants pointed out a number of tax-avoidance opportunities that may arise in the absence of gift duty, including the ability to split income with people on lower incomes, transferring income to loss-making entities, and transferring assets in order to meet minimum thresholds under financial arrangement rules and foreign investment fund rules, etc. Even the Inland Revenue Department officials cautioned in the regulatory impact statement that tax avoidance could increase in the absence of the duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe Law Society and a number of other submitters raised a further concern that the abolition of gift duty would create problems for the enforcement of claims under a number of pieces of legislation, such as the Property (Relationships) Act and the Family Protection Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELabour believes that the analysis upon which the gift duty abolition proposal is based is fundamentally flawed, because it does not adequately take into account the full range of potential tax-avoidance opportunities. We are also concerned that the analysis does not address any of the social equity issues. The Government also ignored advice from New Zealand Trustee Services that called for any changes to gift duty to be delayed until the Law Commission\u2019s review of trust law has been completed. The Law Commission, as I said in my second reading speech in July, has embarked upon an in-depth review of trust law in New Zealand. The first issues paper was released in November 2010 and this year the Law Commission will release its fourth and final part of its review of trust law. I find it a bit odd that the Government has ignored the fact that a review of our trust law is under way and has still decided to go ahead and abolish gift duty, which has existed for 125 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe abolition of gift duty will have far-reaching consequences. The bill as introduced by Minister Dunne is relatively simple but the change will have ramifications in other areas of the law, as I addressed earlier\u2014for instance, relationships and property, creditor protection, and insolvency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAs I said at the very beginning of my contribution, Labour believes in a fair tax regime that promotes social and fiscal equity. Gift duty is part of a progressive tax system that does not favour or disadvantage any member of society. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffa245d659584eee9ce7b040c667ae28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffa245d659584eee9ce7b040c667ae28\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I also am pleased to take a call on the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill. It has been interesting listening today to the Committee stage and the third reading of this bill. I want to reflect on some of the comments that have been made. I was interested in Trevor Mallard\u2019s comments late in the afternoon, when he said that there are some provisions that come before the House that reflect the essential differences we have with members opposite, and this is certainly one of them. When we begin to look at fairness and equity, then we can see why we strongly oppose some of the provisions in this bill. Mr Gilmore argued that we have spent all of our time talking about what is effectively the last substantial clause in the bill\u2014much of our time has been spent on that. He seemed to be saying that no matter the size of a bill, if there is an important clause in it that we do not agree with, we must still pass the bill. That was the kind of shallow thinking that Aaron Gilmore had, and he was advising this side of the House to take that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe heard also from Mr Bennett. I wonder whether he had read the bill fully or what point he was trying to make. He really did believe that this side of the House does not have the best interests of the community at heart. He actually believes that. That is the kind of amazing contribution that we heard on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThen we had a contribution from the ACT Party. The ACT member began to make a non-existent link between taxation in Britain, the unrest in the Middle East, and the development of the Asia-Pacific region. His argument went something along the lines that Britain\u2019s troubles are caused by high taxation and the differences that creates. Then he referred to the Middle East, and talked about the unrest there. He talked about the kind of society there, and blamed it on the kinds of things we are debating here. Then he came, amazingly, to the two Asian giants, I guess he was referring to, that are producing amazing growth rates at the moment. That member should reflect on the fact that those two countries put together probably have a billion people in poverty. [Interruption] The member has been to those countries, and that is a fact. But when members on this side of the House talk in the New Zealand context about fairness and equity, then those things become important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMy colleague Su\u2019a William Sio talked about a hospital pass\u2014that the nature of this bill was a hospital pass. There is quite a lot of truth in that comment about what this legislation does, and how the last clause of this bill has introduced a major change, which is fundamental in a bill of this kind. Debates on remedial matters bills of this kind\u2014and this point has also been made\u2014generally are non-controversial, and generally there is broad agreement across the House. But this was not a bill like that. A major controversial element has been introduced in the bill. Minister Dunne tried to make light of that, but we cannot make light of that when it is a serious provision that needs to be debated fully. It is quite sad really, when this side of the House supports all of the other provisions in the bill\u2014everything but one clause. Tax secrecy, the privacy framework, tax pooling, and changes to donee status: we support all of those things, but what we have been reduced to doing is to debate this particular provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to follow the argument from the other side. The Government justifies the abolition of gift duty because of these elements: gift duty raises only $1.5 million a year, costs half that amount to administer, and has a $70 million compliance cost. The Government says that therefore it does not work; therefore, it has to go. But that is being deliberately disingenuous, because gift duty exists to prevent tax avoidance and structuring. That is what it is there for. Scrapping gift duty opens the way to tax avoidance and structuring. If we take those characteristics, the measure has been quite successful. It was never about how much tax was going to be taken, or how much it would cost to administer. It was an important pillar to avoid tax avoidance and structuring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThat point was made very strongly by the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants. I know that Minister Williamson believes that of course it would say that, because of self-interest. Well, I give the institute quite a bit more credit than the Minister does. The Minister himself supports that group in terms of the quality of its submissions before select committees, so I take its submission seriously. The institute identifies major tax-avoidance opportunities that this provision will give. The House has heard them all, but the final statement is still worth repeating: \u201Cability to split incomes with people on lower incomes\u201D. That is very interesting, because Minister Dunne is interested in income splitting, although his National colleagues are not. Maybe this is a back-door way of bringing in income splitting, or maybe there is a lovely Freudian kind of explanation for why the Minister supports it. But \u201Cability to transfer income to loss-making entities\u201D\u2014everyone has talked about that, but it still is a problem. Simply taking it away, in this way, does not solve those problems. The \u201Cability to transfer assets in order to meet minimum thresholds for the financial arrangement rules and the foreign investment fund rules\u201D, and \u201Cability for someone with a tax liability to divest themselves of the means to pay and then to claim hardship\u201D\u2014those kinds of points have been well made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EI liken the measure to putting a fence at the top of a hill of unstable ground so that people will not play there and fall in, so that that fence does its work. But because nobody has fallen over and died, we think we should take that fence away. That is what I liken this provision in this bill to, and that is why we cannot support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EOther important contributions were made. I was fascinated by Lianne Dalziel\u2019s passionate interrogation\u2014and she spent about four or five calls on this\u2014concerning the regulatory impact statement. It told us a lot about those whose job it is to tell this House what those impacts are. She went through it in some detail and made an important contribution. But there is a question in my mind now. I know that Aaron Gilmore does not accept this, but the $70 million that is projected is probably a figment of somebody\u2019s imagination. It is a very rough way of doing it, but it has become a driving force for this Government in bringing this clause into this bill at this time. Therefore, it stretches credibility\u2014certainly mine\u2014and it is in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIn the end, one has to wonder why the Government is doing it. Is the Government now simply taking another step in advantaging those who are well off, and making sure they get another tax break? They have had several already, and this is another one that will make that ability available to them. I thought Stuart Nash was very astute in saying that one of the perverse effects of this could be seen in those who will now transfer huge sums of their resources into trusts, etc. It will heighten avoidance behaviour\u2014behaviour of a type we have not seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is a rushed decision, and for all of those kinds of reasons, despite the fact that we support every other clause in this bill, this has been the pivotal clause for us. The Government is not prepared to wait for the report on all of this to be ready so that a more considered decision can be made. I wish it would listen to what Warren Buffett said yesterday: \u201CDo charge me tax fairly.\u201D Members on that side might need to think about that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294e59b37138347e5b43c8f6ceda21601\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Tax Administration and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022908a117319d44ac5a68ff75671f02076\u0022\u003EDuties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250aab8363d304232be391395ef45cc22\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5abef27e2114e4aa5753daaa53c2441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5abef27e2114e4aa5753daaa53c2441\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a first time. This bill is a very straightforward and, I think, practical response to two matters requiring quite urgent attention. Part 1 of the bill amends the Statistics Act to give effect to the decision to defer the Census of Population and Dwellings from this year to 2013. As the House will know, the census was supposed to have occurred in March of this year, but after the devastating earthquake on 22 February in Christchurch, for a number of reasons it was decided to defer the census. One reason was that it would be very unfair to the people of Christchurch, while going through the recovery process, to force them into doing all of the work. Secondly, there were huge dislocations of people, so the numbers would have been very distorted. But, more important, the very hard one for us was that the actual office that did most of the census processing was based inside the red zone in Christchurch and was very, very badly damaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EPart 2 changes the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act of 1920\u2014an Act that I am sure every member of this House reads on a regular basis, to keep themselves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c4233b9fcc5441eb14bd0a6d5b0be61\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually a bit serious, this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c977bbcfeb6c4cf5b29652f091877280\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Yes, I understand that. Part 2 changes the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920 to enable the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to delegate his or her functions, responsibilities, duties, and powers. Both of these matters need to be attended to in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill amends the Statistics Act 1975. Section 23(1) of the Statistics Act 1975 currently requires a census to be undertaken \u201Cin the year 1976 and in every fifth year thereafter.\u201D The amendment contained in the bill to omit the year \u201C1976\u201D and substitute \u201C2013\u201D removes the requirement that a census be undertaken this year, and it puts everything back on to a new time frame. The bill needs to be enacted and enforced before the end of the year if the Government Statistician is not to be in breach of the statutory obligation to have undertaken a census in this year of 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill also obviates the need for the current proclamation process whereby the Governor-General appoints the day and timing of the census. The amendment enables the Government Statistician to appoint the day and timing of the census by notice in the Gazette as soon as practicable after the legislation comes into force. This streamlined process is for the 2013 census only, and is made in the light of public announcements already issued about the next census. It will allow notification of the actual day to be given in a more timely manner than the proclamation process allows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESome members may raise questions about the nature and frequency of future censuses\u2014or censi, I guess. Is it censuses? I think it is censuses. I think it is, actually. We will have to get a definition later\u2014censuses or censi? I have asked the same question: in this modern day of information technology and information processing, is a 5-year cycle the right way to stay? It is a question I have asked; we do not know the answer. So I make it clear to members that this bill does nothing to preclude further considerations of how often and how we might undertake a census after 2013. This bill is just for 2013 and to get us back on to a 5-year track. Statistics New Zealand is currently completing its stage 2 business case Tomorrow\u2019s Official Population and Social Statistics, to provide Cabinet with a range of longer-term options, and they will be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EPart 2 of this bill amends the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. The proposal to modernise the delegation powers of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel is in line with the recommendations of the Law Commission, and it is consistent with the general position of chief executives under the State Sector Act 1988. Members will note that the amendment is achieved by inserting three new sections after section 8A of the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920: new section 8B, \u201CDelegation of functions, responsibilities, duties, or powers\u201D; new section 8C, \u201CAbsence or incapacity of Chief Parliamentary Counsel or vacancy\u201D; and new section 8D, \u201CRevocation of delegations\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis bill meets two well-established needs. Legislation is needed to change the requirement to hold a census in 2011 to 2013. The Chief Parliamentary Counsel needs an express power of delegation to enable the Parliamentary Counsel Office to be effectively managed during the period of his secondment in the United Kingdom. It is appropriate that this bill be considered under urgency and through all stages. I recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002251f2f801bf374a72ae231f09da166b95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251f2f801bf374a72ae231f09da166b95\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I must congratulate Minister Williamson on his success in introducing the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill under urgency. If it passes without going through a select committee\u2014and I guess that is what urgency is all about\u2014it will be the 21st bill so far to have gone through Parliament under urgency, with no select committee deliberation, under this National-ACT Government. In that regard my congratulations should be read in inverted commas. Labour would have supported this bill. We called upon National to agree to allow the bill to go to a select committee, so that it could receive public input. It is unfortunate and it is regrettable that the National-ACT Government refused to do so. We have no other option but to oppose this bill. National is continuing a habit of rushing laws through all stages under urgency. Rushed law is often poorly considered and has unintended consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting to note that National MPs have developed a habit of taking short calls. It is fitting for me, as Labour\u2019s spokesperson on statistics, to report some statistics. In my observation, on average National MPs take only a 3-minute call for a 10-minute speech and a 1\u00BD-minute call for a 5-minute speech. No wonder they are so passionate about ramming through legislation under urgency. On the one hand the National Government is moving at a glacial pace in finding a plan to grow our economy, but conversely it is moving very fast on, and is very fond of, rushing through bills under urgency. No wonder its partner, the ACT Party, is such a climate change - denier, because it is equally slow and moves at a glacial pace when attending to issues concerning our economy, but, in a similar vein, it moves rather swiftly in rushing through legislation under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI reiterate, however, that Labour agrees with the policy objectives of this bill, but we cannot support the way that the Government is seeking to rush important constitutional changes through Parliament without giving the public a chance to have its say. Those who have read my media statement and the subsequent Red Alert blog on 25 February 2011 would appreciate that I supported Government Statistician Geoff Bascand\u2019s decision not to hold the 8 March census. I supported the decision of Statistics New Zealand as we as a nation turned our efforts to help the people of Christchurch through their darkest hour. I also sent my best wishes to census staff based in Christchurch at that very traumatic time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EOne commentator, whose name is conveniently \u201CUnpleasantly Odouriferous\u201D, made a very interesting point: \u201CI can understand the decision\u2014but I am intrigued about the mechanism. The Statistics Act seems pretty clear about holding a census every five years and 2011 is the fifth year \u2026 so, it\u2019s a legal requirement. I know the Government is now looking at legislation to permit this post-poning of the Census\u2014but cancelling the thing by Executive fiat and without that legislative authority seems to sail close to the Muldoon case. \u2026 I am not litigating the actual decision\u2014just wondering about the constitutional niceties.\u201D I agree. I am also not litigating the actual decision, but I was left wondering about the constitutional aspects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are other aspects, however, which I wish to touch upon at the first reading of this bill. Firstly, there is an increasing demand for statistical information from iwi as more Treaty settlements are agreed. Statistics New Zealand is working with iwi to identify the types of statistics that will be most useful for the collective management of transferred assets. I wish that the relevant stakeholders, such as iwi and those parties involved in the settlements, can have their say, and the bill\u2019s referral to a select committee rather than ramming it through under urgency is the most appropriate way to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESecondly, and this is more relevant to the Minister responsible for this bill, the Minister of Statistics, there are some operational issues with regard to Statistics New Zealand, and rushing the bill through under urgency without properly addressing these issues would leave the stones unturned. That is not fair for Statistics New Zealand. In the Minister\u2019s response to the standard estimates questionnaire, he notes: \u201CThe statistical system has lacked coordination, coherence, and prioritisation.\u201D There is $17.685 million sought in 2011-12 for the coordination of Government statistical activities. Statistics New Zealand is responsible for leading the official statistics system. The Minister\u2019s statement will lead to more questions, such as: in what way does the official statistics system lack coordination, coherence, and prioritisation; what will be the key challenges for the official statistics system in 2011 and 2012; and will Statistics New Zealand be ready for the 2013 census? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThirdly, I understand that the information technology used by Statistics New Zealand is ageing and needs to be upgraded. When will the information technology systems be upgraded? What will be the total cost of the upgrade? What kind of impact will there be on the 2013 census? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFourthly, there is some debate as to whether we should hold a census every 10 years or every 5 years. Without a select committee deliberation we will not have the opportunity to have these issues addressed. As the Minister just confirmed, this bill will not be good enough to address those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFrom the regulatory impact statement by Statistics New Zealand, we know that to defer the March 2011 census to March 2013 and hold 5-yearly censuses thereafter would incur a cost estimated at $54.5 million, plus the $18 million not spent on the 2011 census. So with constitutional, contractual, operational, and financial aspects in mind, there are solid reasons for this bill to be referred to a parliamentary select committee. For those reasons Labour opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00229cdfe6523c9c42c38d068fb429814ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cdfe6523c9c42c38d068fb429814ed9\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I am absolutely dumbstruck and dumbfounded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b649102a514be1aa74dbc12c7652fa\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Just dumb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4c5321bb0244a77a8423f7d5955778c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or maybe just dumb, probably like the last speaker\u2014because it is just astonishing. We had an earthquake in Christchurch and we have a legal obligation to conduct a census every 5 years, and that last speaker, Raymond Huo, said that Labour would not support the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. It is absolutely astonishing. That member is an accountant, and he is locked up in the figure of $17.685 million of whatever. That is irrelevant. The core issue is this. It is very simple. We made a decision to postpone the census following the 22 February earthquake in Canterbury. The census collects vital information. We cannot do it at the moment because of the problems in Canterbury. That is why this legislation is before the House. This evening I have been using\u2014and I just show my colleagues\u2014a diagram I have discussed with the Prime Minister based on the 2010 statistics. They show how people from Masterton and provincial New Zealand are moving into our cities and we have a waist in the demographic of missing 20 to 50-year-olds in our workforce in the Wairarapa. This is very important information, and this is why we need to have a census. As I said, because of the legal obligation, we must pass this legislation through the House tonight. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table this original piece of work on the floor of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d9bf5c787749a9b00eb2e5b701e89e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: What is the origin of that document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c956e5fae1545deb05b0ee99030b50d\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Me, based on Statistics New Zealand data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e079611a5b24866b28950844e84f30c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a public document. It is a piece of information produced by the member. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022943984c4ec7048a68c8a6d09bf37974d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022943984c4ec7048a68c8a6d09bf37974d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I think my colleague Raymond Huo summarised our position on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill relatively well. Given decent time, decent briefings, and proper process I think we would have been supportive of the legislation. Even the member for the Wairarapa, Mr Hayes, summarised the situation pretty well. There was an earthquake, and we all know that there could not be a census in Christchurch this year. I think \u201Cmunted\u201D is the description of the centre of Christchurch. The office was stuffed, and we could not hold a census for part of the country. Therefore, it had to be deferred. I would have thought that Maurice Williamson, if he was a good, active Minister of Statistics, would not go past the first week in March, when he had advice to that effect. The decision to do it, we are told, was made in May, and I think the announcements were made around that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f5b6f4deb4491d8491dacac0d133aa\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: The census was actually being held in March. We cancelled it back in February.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c8aef418b94f6abda339fff3c2be94\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: OK, it was cancelled. But the decision to take this process was made in May, I understand. The question I have for the Minister is a relatively simple one, because this bill is not complex. I think it is fair to say that when we get to the Committee stage, there will be some holding of the Minister to account for what might be described as sloppy drafting. But we will work our way through that, and that is one of the reasons, of course, why bills should go to select committees. The Minister is aware that I offered a process whereby the bill went to a select committee for the period of the adjournment and then went through its stages without much debate at all, and quicker than we will do it today and tomorrow. There was an offer to do that, because it meant that we could have had the statistician in, and we could have had parliamentary counsel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275686518c49e4539b2b359bd2f3cd292\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Trevor, you\u2019re just playing games.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225075301601344a5bb00c499e64b3957a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all. I have been around this place for a while, and I have respect for the institution. There has to be a very good reason for a bill not to go to a select committee. The fact that the member was late getting himself organised in this way is not a good enough excuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223889192ca9bb4f52b15c80d2bf33016a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: We had to get an appropriation through the finance Minister, and that took some months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022439607bf728943db8a5f5f0939828800\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member is now pleading a lack of influence. The member is now pleading the fact that the Minister of Finance will not listen to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db2e274bb8445a8b6dda32b05861050\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is saying it\u2019s difficult to soar like an eagle when he is surrounded by turkeys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223978a29e48a340f487c12845eee659c9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I want to be a little bit fair to that Minister. If I was putting together a National Cabinet, I would stick him in it, because he has had experience and he knows practical stuff. If he was in there, he would have been able to sort out the Minister of Finance, and the bill would have been able to proceed. It could have been referred to a select committee for 2 weeks, we could have had 2 or 3 hours of hearings, and people could have been satisfied. The drafting could have been made slightly more fashionable than it is, and we could have heard from the people who are interested in it. That would not have been hard. And, as I said, it would have taken less time than pushing it through this way, under urgency. In fact, we probably could have had one speech from either side in the first reading. It could have been off to the select committee by now if the Minister had decided to take that approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI had one specific question, which the Minister has answered privately, that I would like to get on to the record as part of the exercise, and that was to seek an assurance that section 77 of the Electoral Act is not offended by this bill. There is a requirement in there for 5-yearly censuses\u2014and the word is \u201Ccensuses\u201D; I have looked it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4990221d9e84fb481435ae1149705c5\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Latin-based.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f09d9e343644354a1367f138b93cd3a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It is Latin, not Greek, and it means an assessment. The first thing it used to be was a traffic count. It was used to count the traffic. That was the first census. Then it was used for taxation in Roman times\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and, no, like the member, I cannot remember. I had to do some research in the Collins English Dictionary in order to find that out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere is another question that I think is important, and I am obliged to my colleague Charles Chauvel for highlighting the issue to me. Why, when we have a Statutes Amendment Bill that has been through the select committee\u2014and I think we also have the Legislation Bill somewhere in the process\u2014are we amending\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c487fbccc28a489da014319a322fa785\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Both back from committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286b762212e18405390a042ca2eeacbc2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: They are both back from the select committee, waiting for their second readings. Why are we taking a process to put through, under urgency, an amendment to the Statues Drafting and Compilation Act? I want to seek an assurance from the Minister that this is not legislation in order to make arrangements for a particular individual. I think it is very important that the House gets an assurance that this is a general piece of legislation, and that we are not faced with the immediate situation of someone who wants to do another job for a period of time and come back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIf that is the case, that would be an outrageous abuse of Parliament, because in the briefings we were given, there was no such reference. There was no such reference, at all. In the past, chief executives have gone overseas to do other jobs\u2014sometimes they are very important jobs\u2014and have come back. They do not necessarily come back to the same job\u2014they took their chances when they returned to the country. I think it is important to get that assurance, and I think the time taken on the legislation will depend on the Minister being able to give that assurance during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae10aebc076427ba0d126bef32d068c\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Will we have that assurance under a polygraph test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229857e818a2e94436bab461d89f07839b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No. Frankly, if that Minister gave his word, then I would take it. Of course, inside this House we are obliged to. Behind the chair, there would be one or two of his colleagues whom I would not be quite as trusting of, including the Minister who has responsibility for parliamentary counsel. But within this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df2aad2d4674b1a810d12d08d8bdaa7\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Never you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1efd24e5638463b9b5a6812a72d249a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Never me, either. I think there is never a danger of my being Attorney-General. I think there is a certain amount of shuddering to my right at the very prospect of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI compliment my colleague Raymond Huo, who is leading the Labour debate on this issue, for his work, both on this legislation and generally as the Opposition spokesperson on statistics. I think it is fair to say that it is not normally a position that has a lot of profile, but the member has made a lot of it. He has looked at a lot of the statements that have come out. He has inquired into the positions and workings of Statistics New Zealand, and he has developed an understanding of statistics, the way it works, and the importance of the Government Statistician. I think the last person who had that level of understanding\u2014I do not want to be too rude to Darren Hughes\u2014was Michael Cullen. As well as being the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance, he was, at least early in his career, the Minister of Statistics. He thought it was an important role, and he wanted to guard the independence of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5209c573b144bad948d185d20bff4c6\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to tell Clayton you said that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3762854f77e4099a42a5e3a291c8017\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, was Clayton the Minister as well? I will plead guilty to my friend and colleague Chris Hipkins for that one passing me by. It did not quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0ff83782ab4954be6459bbd8f79231\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I was too, Trevor. I was Minister of Statistics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30b22c2f8fa4fbf83538f1dae3fef27\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh dear! I do not care about that member; he will not be voting for the next Cabinet in November, so I do not really care! But I say to Clayton that I am very sorry. The point I want to make is that Dr Cullen regarded the independence of the Government Statistician as vitally important. Frankly, on occasions we used to get quite grumpy with him. There were some arrangements that we thought could have been much better from a taxpayer\u2019s point of view. We thought we could have got better-quality information, but over a period of time we had some statisticians who just would not be told. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002240a0930d123745a2aee3b64c92c0d4ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240a0930d123745a2aee3b64c92c0d4ac\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to speak on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. This bill is supposed to be non-controversial. However, I am absolutely shocked that Labour is opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe understand why this legislation has to be before the House. The census was postponed as a result of the Canterbury earthquakes. The earthquakes were devastating to our country. Over 180 people lost their lives, thousands of people lost their houses, and some people lost their limbs. This bill is about restoring our ability to hold that national census. Actually, it is about restoring the heart of our democracy in this country. We know that many people have shifted between electorates, and I am shocked that Labour does not support this legislation that will enable us to determine how many people are living in electorates. That cuts to the core of our parliamentary democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House, because it is about restoring what happened as a result of Canterbury and ensuring parliamentary democracy reigns. I am shocked that Labour does not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022f23cfbeeabb145989bf6cd152a6a51c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f23cfbeeabb145989bf6cd152a6a51c9\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Roy. Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. This is just a short call from the M\u0101ori Party to say that we support the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. There are some requirements that we need to meet, and the M\u0101ori Party is fully behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns we had was around the possibility of the move of the M\u0101ori Option, which has some links to the timing of the census. We were in discussions with the Minister of Statistics, and he has assured us pretty much that that will not be affected. Therefore, our concerns have been laid to rest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFrom that background I think it is fair to say that we are supportive of this bill all the way through every stage, to make sure that that particular concern can be addressed and also that we meet the obligations required of us. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002287ede75a6ecd45a98f7da53576886246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ede75a6ecd45a98f7da53576886246\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to begin by repeating something that my colleague Trevor Mallard said, which was to pay tribute to the careful contribution that was made in this debate by my colleague Raymond Huo. This is not usually a portfolio area or a spokespersonship that is seen as fascinating or high profile, but it is very important. I certainly enjoyed that careful contribution to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI want to say a few things about the two parts of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. The first is the proposal to defer the census by 2 years. Members on this side of the House accept immediately that, given the situation in Canterbury, it is very likely that it is sensible to defer the census. We heard from the Minister of Statistics in his contribution that there was a problem because one of the chief offices of the Government Statistician is located in Christchurch. As Mr Mallard said, we are obligated to accept the Minister\u2019s word on that. But it would have been useful for members on this side of the House and for the public to be able to have confidence in the administration of the Government, and, in particular, given the pretty extraordinary proposal to defer a census, to have had a short period where this matter could have gone to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt would have needed only 2 weeks\u2014the next adjournment. It could have come back to Parliament in a couple of weeks, and we would have had the assurance of process that the Standing Orders suggest ought to be the standard that this Parliament works to. We all know that we do not have an Upper House; we have just this Chamber. The only scrutiny that this legislation will receive, and the only scrutiny that the Minister\u2019s assurances to us will receive, is in the Committee stage, which we are about to embark upon, because, thanks to this bill being included in the urgency motion, it will be put through all its stages in this sitting of Parliament. So there will be no opportunity to test whether it is necessary to have a deferral of the census for 2 years, no opportunity to test the assurance of the Minister that the location in Christchurch of one of the chief offices is a problem, and no opportunity to test the concern raised by Raymond Huo that there is real redundancy in the technology being deployed by the Government Statistician for census purposes. All those important issues will simply remain in the ether, and that is just not satisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am also concerned about the ramifications of deferring a census. For a long time the census has been held on a 5-yearly basis, so we have a body of material, a body of data, that is able to be compared 5-year block against 5-year block. I do not know, because I am not a statistician, what the effect of suddenly introducing a new time period into the process will be. Again, it would have been useful for members of Parliament and for the public to be able to hear from experts\u2014from, at least, the Government Statistician but also from others with an interest and expertise in this sort of area\u2014on what we are doing to the nation\u2019s data mine by agreeing to this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am also concerned about some of the language that is deployed by the draftsperson in the bill. I will use the Committee stage to ask the Minister a little bit more about this, but I signal the concern now, because I can see he is paying close attention to the debate, and it would be useful to hear more from him in the Committee stage. The drafters talk about obviating the need for the proclamation process, and that is a useful reminder about the constitutional position of the Government Statistician. Under the State Sector Act he has a degree of independence as far as his appointment is concerned, and there is good reason for that, just as there is good reason for a proclamation process as to the date of the census. It puts beyond the ordinary reach of a Public Service chief executive, and of Ministers to whom the chief executive reports, the question of when the census date should occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c58648fd22cc43e29061744442ac872c\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: This change is only for this 1 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222916629a086b4da8a74899daa85c09aa\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says, as he said in his speech, that this change is only for 1 year. We have all seen in this House how precedents can be made through drafting like this. The proclamation process is done away with because there is said to be an emergency on one occasion. Then guess what? When the Minister has his way and defers the census from every 5 years to every 10 years, as he is on record saying he wants to do, when we get such legislation in the future, lo and behold, will it be a surprise to anybody if the proclamation process, which is a careful check and balance that has been thought out over years, suddenly disappears? Well, again, we will never know, because there is not the opportunity to hear from, for example, the Legislation Advisory Committee on that sort of question. We would have that opportunity, no doubt, if the Minister had acceded to Mr Mallard\u2019s very modest request that there be a 2-week submission period so that the public and experts could tell us a little bit about the true ramifications of this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe second part of the legislation is of equal concern. Happily, we will not be able to have grandstanding from members about Labour not caring about Canterbury, on this question at least, as we have had from them so far on the first question. It is true that the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920 is unusual. It does not contain any of the provisions we would expect to see in modern legislation relating to the administration of a Government department. We know this because the Regulations Review Committee considered the Legislation Bill pretty extensively. I see the hard-working deputy chair, Tim Macindoe, on the other side of the House; I hope he will take many calls in this debate, because I know he will have a great contribution to make on the question. We had the Attorney-General in, we had past Chief Parliamentary Counsel in, and we had the current Chief Parliamentary Counsel address us on the problems that that office currently faces because of the antiquated provisions in the Act. We have reported back to the House a revised Legislation Bill that would fix many of those problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESo why has one part of that Legislation Bill been plucked out and put into urgency, and why are we being asked to pass it tonight? I want to know whether the Minister actually knows the answer to that question. Are we doing something here, as Mr Mallard asked him, that is to the peculiar benefit of an individual? What is the urgency for this piece of the Legislation Bill being taken out of its context and passed through all its stages in Parliament? Is the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, for example, still in the country, or is there already a delegated arrangement de facto in place, which we are effectively being asked to validate without a true and accurate picture of the position\u2014which, again, we would have if this legislation were sent to a brief select committee process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWhat ought to be a relatively straightforward process, by virtue of the Minister\u2019s refusal to agree to a truncated select committee process becomes more complicated and, unfortunately, more controversial. Unless we can get some answers during the Committee stage to the sorts of issues I have raised, then the Opposition will remain disquieted by this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022359273b378e34f4aa2293581932957c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359273b378e34f4aa2293581932957c7\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr Assistant Speaker Roy for the opportunity to participate in the first reading of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. This bill allows legislation to be changed in order to hold the 2011 census in 2013. The census of 2011 was postponed following the 22 February earthquake in Canterbury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThis bill also includes amendments to modernise the delegation powers of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, to enable the delegation of his or her functions, responsibilities, duties, and powers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00225e6f50ac7c24482e83b96a3503d6c9ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e6f50ac7c24482e83b96a3503d6c9ad\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E That is all very interesting, but it is no defence of why the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill is being heard under urgency. We have not heard from the member who has just resumed his seat, Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi, the member on the opposite benches before that, or any National member any defence as to why this bill should be passed under urgency. I have spent a bit of time as Minister of Statistics, and the key feature of the issue of statistics is that it be treated with a certain arm\u2019s-length approach by politicians. Process around statistics matters. The independence of statistics is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276155011111d481fb0f1cc31a8dc6e4c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member got captured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225903595c75249fb863c0b99ac54ecc0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It may be that I was captured by the Government Statistician of the day. It is absolutely true that when one is a Minister of Statistics, other Ministers want the Minister of Statistics to beat up a little on the Government Statistician, and when one is a member of the executive other than as the Minister of Statistics, one joins the other 19 in trying to beat up on the Minister of Statistics in order to try to usurp the independence of the Government Statistician. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThis, however, does not work, and it is important that it does not work. It may be that there are some processes relating to release, timing, and the use of adjectives when improvement or reasonableness could prevail a little more from time to time\u2014I am sure that people would argue that. But the underlying fact is that a Government that has an independent set of statistics is a believable Government. Conversely, a Government that has a constrained or politicised set of statistics is not believable. We can all list nations on both sides of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fe86a576f3941e8987a1bcd5a4af6fd\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: How is this politicising?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3860f04beb7407cb17af22b86ec7616\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is an intervention of some sort from a humanoid opposite. A vaguely humanoid personage wishes to make an intervention. Let us hear from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293f3bf1b2cb9434d928d1f7c93929bf7\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: I want to know how this is politicising it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226885321a4ade4379b3840e83e6a979ab\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is politicised by screwing around with the numbers\u2014screwing around with the numbers\u2014I say to the member opposite. That is what \u201Cpoliticised\u201D means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWhen China says that its CPI is this, that its population census has changed by that, or that its GDP has altered by the other, some people are unkind enough to say that that may be wrong, because the statistics, in the view of some commentators, are not sufficiently independent in the People\u2019s Republic of China. They do not say that about New Zealand, however. The statistics in New Zealand, even if they are subject to ongoing correction\u2014and they are\u2014are regarded as being free of political influence. Why does this matter in this debate? Because it is important\u2014I think; we think\u2014to have legislation like this referred to a select committee in order that the Government Statistician and people who work for that department can be taken into the select committee, and their advice on the legislation can be received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWe assume that this is what the Government Statistician wants. We assume that the Minister of Statistics is merely allowing a sensible decision to be given legal effect. That is what we assume. But the independence of statistics is sufficiently important that we ought to test it openly, and a select committee process is how that happens. This select committee process is being denied the Government Statistician, is being denied the New Zealand public, and is being denied this House. Do members think the Opposition should roll over and let that happen? I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThere will be opposition to this legislation only on the basis of process. It seems sensible to delay a census by 2 years, or perhaps 1 year or 3 years; I am not sure. It seems sensible to do that because of the earthquake. If it is sensible, it is certainly the case that we need to do it by statutory amendment. It cannot be done otherwise. We accept that. We can read black-letter law like anyone else. But it is not OK\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ecaca8181940959a3d50e5e456faec\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: They can read! They can\u2019t add.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e0c86d1e61441fb796420534ea3034\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not OK, I say to the \u201COrange Roughy\u201D, for an earthquake that is 6 months old next week to be the cause of something that only now comes to the House. It is not OK. It is 5 months since we were told that we would have to delay the census\u20145 months. What has the Minister of Statistics been doing? Is this a big piece of legislation? It is not. Is it difficult legislation? It is not. Does it involve some expense? Yes, a little. Did he have trouble getting money from the Minister of Finance? Apparently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292575d6cfc5a41de84476b776be03f36\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: A little? It\u2019s $94 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dccf5ead474aff8b66829554cb6588\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is $94 million. OK, now we are going to quibble. So because it is so costly\u2014here is the logic now. The logic, as offered by way of interjection, goes like this: there is a delay, the delay is caused by the cost, and the delay is absolutely unavoidable because of the cost. On the other hand, delaying the census itself is unavoidable because we cannot make any sense out of a census when we have a bombed-out second city of the nation. Therefore, the one conclusion we can draw is that the Minister of Statistics failed to properly make that argument to the Minister of Finance, and took 5 months to fail\u20145 months to achieve no progress on this. All he needed to do was say: \u201CBill, what about the idea that you\u2019ve got no choice? What about that, Bill? Has there been a rattle down in Christchurch? Verily, there has. Do we need to delay the census? Verily, we do. Will it cost money? It does; it does. Therefore, cough. There ain\u2019t no option.\u201D That is the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance may have asked for the cost to be brought down a bit. I would have if I were the Minister of Finance. But, you see, can I just say to the Minister of Statistics that he does not need 5 months to bring his costs down; he needs 5 weeks or 5 days. It is not a major exercise. There has been diddly-squat going on here. The Minister of Statistics has been sitting on his hands. The Government Statistician has perhaps been sitting on his hands. Everything has happened too late. It has been brought to the House in a bit of a hurry. Everyone is in a bit of a blind panic about it. We have been asked to roll over, and our answer is no, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIf the Government wants to govern badly, it should wear it. If the Government wants to govern slackly, it is the Government\u2019s problem. If the Government wants to govern without the disinfectant of daylight, then it is on the Government\u2019s head, but the Government should not invite the Opposition to roll over and say that it does not matter, because it does. It does matter if the Government wants to play fast and loose with the processes of the House. It does matter if the Government wants to cut public viewpoint out of this legislation. It does matter if there will be no hearings in front of the media. It does matter that we are debating this bill at this hour of the night, under urgency. It matters. It is not OK. We are not putting up with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIs there any part of that that the Government does not understand? Let us see. I will pause. There is silence from members on the Government benches. They have now understood that the Opposition\u2019s job is to make sure that process is followed properly. That is what we are paid to do. One of the many jobs of Her Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition is to ensure that good process is followed and that urgency is used when urgency must be used\u2014not when it is convenient to use it; not when it is a cover-up for slackness in earlier months; not when it is due to dilatory behaviour by officials, by the Minister, by the Cabinet committee in question, or by whomever; and not when there has been a bit of debate over $94 million. Not for any of those reasons; we do not roll over for any of those reasons. If there is a good reason for urgency, we will be very happy to support it, but this legislation is not such a reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00224caf8f59ee4442ffae21237815606a68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224caf8f59ee4442ffae21237815606a68\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to get up and talk to the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I commend the Minister of Statistics for making the sensible decision to postpone the census following the 22 February earthquake in Canterbury. This census could not have been successfully completed, given the national state of emergency in Christchurch and the probable impact on census results. Of course, there has also been significant impact on census staff, and extensive damage to Statistics New Zealand buildings, in Christchurch, as well as upheaval for the people of Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI note the example of the hypothetical family of Cherie, Richard, Cherise, and Darien, who have had to relocate from their home, and who have no idea when they may go back into their home. That would affect a census whenever it was held, and I commend the Minister for his excellent response to this crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf2c6067bf9423aaf9ae87ad9a91457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf2c6067bf9423aaf9ae87ad9a91457\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party will be supporting the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be21bf84ee8a46d587fbc391c2a97f6b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bb2d7ef99a944649ecdbb04ef144753\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00221d3a4191c53f458b823b7b391bc1d00e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d3a4191c53f458b823b7b391bc1d00e\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a second time. This bill makes legally necessary and urgently required changes to two different Acts, the Statistics Act 1975 and the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe changes to the Statistics Act arise from decisions taken to defer the taking of the census following the Canterbury earthquake in February this year, and subsequent decisions to conduct a census in 2013. Can I just say to members on the other side of the House that they are welcome to have a few slings and arrows and take a few shots at me, but at the time of the deferral of the census the first question asked was whether we needed to do one at all or whether we should just have a 10-year break and bring the next one on as planned for 2016. That type of deferral has happened twice in the history of this country. It happened in 1931 because of the Napier\u2014actually, it did not happen because of the Napier earthquake, even though that was during that year; it happened because of the Great Depression. The Government of the day decided not to hold a census and there was a 10-year break. The deferral happened again in 1945 during the Second World War; the Government decided to defer it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo one of the options that we had to consider\u2014it went to a Cabinet committee and Ministers put a lot of thought into it\u2014was whether we should just can the census for 2011 and pick it back up again in 2016 as was planned and as is in the programme. But, of course, a number of things flow from the census. I know that the M\u0101ori Party is very concerned about the M\u0101ori electoral option, which is driven off a census being taken. I know that the Minister of Health is very concerned about population-based funding for all of the different district health boards. If we get those numbers wrong over a 10-year period, it might be that he, indeed, is overfunding certain parts of the country and underfunding others. So population-based funding is affected. I know that there are members here in the House who say to me that they really hope they can get some new boundaries for the next election. Holding this census in 2013 will mean that the new boundaries can still be drawn up in time for the 2014 general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe deferral is achieved by amending the current formulation in the Statistics Act 1975 for a census to be undertaken. I find it bizarre that this was ever put into an Act in this way. Section 23(1) states: \u201Cin the year 1976 and in every fifth year thereafter.\u201D This legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022710e8619129b48cba528adb1e0b6d329\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the Government that did that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223056bb903e5d40b2bf9052ea47d5c359\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it just does not sit well with modern drafting practices that the exact year is locked in stone. The Act could have said that a census was to be taken every 5 years, and maybe provision could have been made for a Great Depression - type situation, a war, or, indeed, the Canterbury earthquake. But the Act did not, so we are amending it and substituting \u201C2013\u201D for \u201C1976\u201D. The fact is that it does not change anything from that point on. We go on to a 5-year cycle from 2013. The amendment does not preclude the continuing analysis of options for the frequency and sequencing of the census, but it does lock in place a census for 2013, and if no changes are made further out into the future, another census will take place 5 years from there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe bill also obviates the need for the current proclamation process\u2014that is just for the 2013 census; I need to remind Charles Chauvel about that\u2014by enabling the Government Statistician, not the Minister of Statistics or anyone else, to appoint the day and notify it in the Gazette as soon as practicable after the bill comes into force. I heard someone\u2014it might have been Pete Hodgson\u2014say that it could have been a 1-year delay. Well, frankly, a huge mechanism needs to be geared up for it. Until this decision was taken, if we were looking at taking a census in March 2012, the Government Statistician advises that we simply would not have been able to get the infrastructure, the personnel who have to be hired, and so on in place. We would not get it done in the time frame and be able to guarantee a smooth census. That is why we have moved it to 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe Government Statistician puts that in the Gazette. The rationale for this latter provision is to facilitate the timely announcement of a census and provide certainty in the planning process\u2014and believe me, certainty is vital for Statistics New Zealand when it is going about ramping up its budgets quite an amount for that census year and bringing in a lot of staff and personnel who come in only for that short period, like all the enumerators, and then go again at the end of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe changes to the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920 are a little bit different. I am not an expert on this, and it is not even part of the statistics portfolio. It deals with an urgent issue of providing for the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to be able to delegate his or her functions, responsibilities, duties, and powers. In November 2009 the Cabinet legislation committee noted the recommendation of the Law Commission\u2014and I am a big fan of always going with what the Law Commission recommends\u2014in its report Review of the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920. I am sure all members know that the Law Commission reviewed that Act. The report recommended \u201CThat the legislation should confer on the Chief Parliamentary Counsel express power to delegate his or her functions.\u201D It currently does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe inclusion of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel\u2019s delegation powers in the bill allows the House the opportunity to deal with the matter expeditiously. This is important because it enables the Parliamentary Counsel Office to be effectively managed while the Chief Parliamentary Counsel is on secondment in the United Kingdom from the end of August of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and other Remedial Provisions) Bill deals with both of these urgent matters in a straightforward and, in my view, practical way. It alters the statutory duties of the Government Statistician by requiring him to conduct the Census in 2013\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d69c449527d34de280c64bca4b0342e8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The truth has been flushed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b7e4c8f7d547c58084b820149433b3\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot have been flushed out; these are the speech notes that I was given by the Attorney-General, I say to Mr Mallard. I got them last week, so it is a bit hard for him to claim that he flushed me out. The Government Statistician is required to conduct the census in 2013 instead of 2011 and the bill confers the power on the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to delegate his or her powers, functions, and duties. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce622655f13243eab45f4de2736a808d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce622655f13243eab45f4de2736a808d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity to participate in the debate on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I know that most of my colleagues will be utterly gobsmacked when the first thing I will refer to is the regulatory impact statement that accompanies this bill. I want to refer to that, because the Minister for Regulatory Reform made an undertaking to this House that whenever bills were passed through all their stages under urgency, due to the Government\u2019s decision to remove the regulatory impact statements from the bills themselves the Government would make sure that the statements were tabled in the House. I personally went to the Bills Office to get some copies of this bill\u2019s regulatory impact statement and placed them on the Table of the House. The regulatory impact statement was not on the Table for the first reading of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI was deeply disappointed, but I now know why. There is a reason why the Government decided to cover up the regulatory impact statement and keep it from the House\u2019s consideration. It is because of the date it was signed. Perhaps members would like to know the date that Vince Galvin, a Deputy Government Statistician, signed the agency disclosure statement for the regulatory impact statement, which of course would have gone to the Minister of Statistics. Would anyone like to know the date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234bc63a06d5e491fa07d5db1d115b514\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212efe9a65d694b8683763c08aa27dec2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Do members think it was last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1befe27235472fbaedfacc6ec886c0\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230914683273a49a0ac683a6fe9799b77\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Week before?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a7f808c98504a99ab4ecb2ff606971a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b54c2bc951c942b89a07adab09dbf0f4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe a couple of weeks ago? Three weeks? Four, five?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8d0edd5f2b4f21b8a8b4237b07e667\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Put us out of our misery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298975efdbaf74b76b25c87a1ddc43210\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: OK. How about 6 April 2011? Now, of course, we have the real reason that we are here under urgency. We have to deal with this urgently, because the Government did nothing for month after month after month. We went from April to August, and the Government did nothing. Now we are debating the bill under urgency, and there is no opportunity for this bill to go to a select committee to be considered by anyone\u2014the Legislation Advisory Committee or anyone. I just heard the Minister say how much he respects and values everything the Law Commission recommends, yet he will not allow this bill to go to a select committee even for a week or two to allow such esteemed bodies to make a contribution to our lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b3f209b947946f1adabc194e1a73779\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe it was stuck on Maurice\u2019s fax machine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ed64d9829b14b27b1ba67025c5d16da\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It might have been stuck on the Minister\u2019s fax machine, but I am absolutely astounded that he would talk about the urgency of this particular legislation when the regulatory impact statement was signed off on 6 April 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EUnlike some of the other contributors to this debate, I am a Canterbury member. I was in Christchurch on the day of the September earthquake, which is about to have its first anniversary. I was in Christchurch, in my electorate office, on 22 February when the second earthquake struck. I have been in Christchurch for most of the very large aftershocks\u2014the Boxing Day aftershock and of course the one on 13 June. I certainly have experienced, along with my constituents, the devastation that those have caused. I know that the Statistics New Zealand office has suffered as well. I know that it is the centre of New Zealand statistics, and that therefore, obviously, the census had to be deferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut the point I am making is that I am quite tired of Canterbury, of Christchurch, being used as an excuse\u2014the earthquakes being used as an excuse\u2014for the Government to walk away from its obligations to meet process. This is a process issue, and if people do not understand why it is important that proper process is observed even in situations like this, and that these challenges are met within the context of what this Parliament is designed to achieve, then I wonder why Government members feel they are playing the role they were elected to perform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI feel quite strongly about this, because a lot of what is happening in Christchurch at the moment does not evidence best practice internationally, in terms of recovery from disaster. Part of what the Government has not managed to achieve is the sense of engagement with the affected communities that would make the recovery so much more accessible, as it were, and that would enable people to own their own recovery. I think that is absolutely fundamental. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI have just received, via the Facebook page of the Bexley Residents Association, a copy of the CERA: Residential Red Zone Offers\u2014Summary of Sale Process\u2014draft for discussion, marked \u201CConfidential, not Government policy\u201D. I have just downloaded this from Facebook. This means that the Government, through its Government department, the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, is consulting agencies outside this Parliament without even consulting members of Parliament, or indeed a select committee, which would have the ability to look over the fine print and detail of such an offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI have to acknowledge the conflict of interest that I share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9ecf6a153545a2a16a4e4af5ec199c\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the census?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50240cd32f64e2ab6a8dddf1f2cf50f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I will be receiving one of these residential red zone offers, and I know that that member would like me to stop talking about things that really matter to people in Christchurch, but I am saying that the relevance to this bill is that this Government seems to think that consultation with people affected by legislation does not matter. I am reflecting on the fact that this bill does not enable anyone to have any contribution to the discussion about whether this census ought to be deferred for 10 years or for 2 years\u2014which is the Government\u2019s decision that it has taken of its own volition, without any reference to a select committee. Here is the Government, putting out a discussion document for whomever\u2014who I do not know\u2014Residential Red Zone Offers\u2014Summary of Sale Process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think that is outrageous, but it does show exactly what this Government is doing over and over and over again. Every time we deal with the Canterbury earthquakes we find ourselves in this situation: the Government does not consult with affected parties. We have got this again: Canterbury\u2014Christchurch\u2014is being used as an excuse for a change to the census legislation. But actually it is not the change to the census legislation that I object to. It is the lack of capacity for people to contribute to the discussion about what the decision might be that really frustrates me, and all of the people who elected me to represent them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI find it incredibly frustrating to listen to members of the Government say that we have had an earthquake in Christchurch. Well, I was there; I know exactly what that earthquake experience was like, and I have also been there for my constituents who have literally cried in my arms, and who have been through every emotion one could possibly imagine. I say to Government members that it really does matter that people feel utterly engaged in the process of decision making when it comes to their recovery. I find it extraordinary that the Government does not think that this is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI might have agreed with the Government about the need for more urgency, and maybe for the remaining stages of this bill to go through under urgency, but when I read that the regulatory impact statement for this bill was written on 6 April this year, I know that the Government has had time to do this properly. I know that it has had time to put this bill through the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister of Statistics sort of put to one side the idea that we would put off the census until 2016, and I do not necessarily know whether I agree with that. But when I hear that it was just at the pleading of Aaron Gilmore that it be brought into effect in 2013, so that he could have the chance of having the Christchurch East constituency disappear, then it really does not bode well for wondering why the Government chose that particular option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut I really just made that last comment flippantly. The serious comment I will make is that every single decision that will be made in relation to the recovery of Christchurch post that terrible, terrible day of 22 February must involve every single one of those affected parties, so that they feel utterly engaged in the process of decision making. This bill, like the discussion paper that has gone out on the residential red zone offers, was not even advised to this Parliament, and was not advised to any of the local MPs. That just shows that this Government is not listening to people, and is not willing to engage with them. I think that is a shame, and it is a good reason to vote against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00229087f03b97a34cafae8232514aec422f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229087f03b97a34cafae8232514aec422f\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I am very pleased that this bill has widespread support except for Labour. It is interesting to note that both Chris Carter and the Greens support this bill. I also think it is interesting that one of the lines I took from Mr Hodgson\u2019s speech was that there has been diddly-squat going on here. This bill is about ensuring that we are able to hold a national census. That is non-controversial. Members opposite have raised the fact that this is being done under urgency. I will raise a couple of points about that. Ms Dalziel raised the issue of the fact that the regulatory impact statement was produced in April. In April what was decided was to defer, but there has been a whole lot of work between April and now to make the decision to have the census in 2013. That is why there have been those couple of months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EBut let us just remember again what the point of this legislation is. There is a technical part about the Parliamentary Counsel Office and there is a part that enables members of Parliament to have representation in their electorate. We know that as a result of the devastating earthquakes in Canterbury, people have shifted around the country. I know that in my electorate, in particular, we have had quite a large number of people come in over the last several years. I believe that if we cannot hold that census, it means that we cannot do our jobs properly, because we do not know how many people we are representing. Secondly, and also very importantly, it is very difficult for many local government authorities to do their job, because they do not know the number of people living in their electorates. Many businesses and community organisations also rely on census data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to support this very crucial legislation and commend it to the House. I believe it is fairly non-controversial. I am shocked that Labour is not supporting this legislation. I think there are some very good reasons to support it. If legislation supporting a census is not something that can be taken under urgency as a result of our largest natural disaster in this country, then I do not know what would be more worthy. I am very pleased to support this legislation and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022beb62a27a39e4188801161051f429898\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beb62a27a39e4188801161051f429898\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise; I meant to do this after my contribution to the debate. I seek leave to table the draft document for discussion, marked \u201CConfidential, not Government policy\u201D\u2014CERA: Residential Red Zone Offers\u2014Summary of Sale Process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d13d9b0b7c47ff9e69257c8304ed59\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a19dcaca0a3c4889bc6bf6ae737faf5c\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Can I seek clarification about this document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f025d35f7054f4e87196bd9643ca686\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Clarification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d722dcb561ce4570851e0a07c26dba7e\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Is this document previously available in the public domain? So it has not been presented by the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority in the public domain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222137609a8a574909b9a9ff4b266f2103\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I downloaded it from a Facebook page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9d636e64924d2eb315a08ddb238c7b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc02779b42db40da9d3b9e4fb854b68c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc02779b42db40da9d3b9e4fb854b68c\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Ni hao; thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The National member who just resumed her seat, Nikki Kaye, should not be shocked, because I listed a number of reasons, but largely in respect of constitutional concerns, as to why Labour has no other option but to oppose the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. As the Hon Lianne Dalziel has just said, it is about process. It is about the core values our Parliament operates under, and members opposite simply cannot claim the high moral ground in shutting down the democratic process. Having said that, it is fitting for me to touch upon some aspects of this bill at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EPart 1 enables the census to take place in March 2013. The bill amends section 23 of the Statistics Act 1975 by replacing the date \u201C1976\u201D with \u201C2013\u201D. This was the preferred option recommended by Statistics New Zealand. Another option was to go to 10-yearly censuses, as in the US and other OECD countries, starting in 2013, but this option was rejected by the Government. Part 2 amends the Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920 to allow the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to delegate his or her functions, responsibilities, and duties and powers. Part 2, therefore, creates delegation powers similar to those in section 13 of the Clerk of the House of Representatives Act 1988. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EGiven that the Minister of Statistics believes that this bill is so important that it has to be rushed through under urgency, it is very important for us to look at other aspects. Some developed countries, including the Netherlands, have given up on censuses. The logic for this is that censuses are expensive, are not comprehensive, and are slower to produce data, whereas surveys, for instance, can produce data that is just as useful at a lower cost and in a much tighter time frame. Therefore, as my colleagues Trevor Mallard and Charles Chauvel said earlier, the select committee process was warranted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are some further points of interest I wish to share with members and the general public who are watching the high-rating Parliament TV. I must thank our wonderful Parliamentary Library and, in particular, Lee Taylor, who provided us with such valuable and thoughtful advice. The first census in New Zealand was carried out in 1851, and it was not until 100 years later\u2014that is, in 1951\u2014that M\u0101ori were given the same census questionnaires as the rest of the population. Then in 1996 the option of completing the form in M\u0101ori or English was introduced. There have been only three occasions when the census was not held as scheduled. In 1931 the census was abandoned because of the Depression, in 1941 it was postponed because of the Second World War, and again in this year it was postponed because of the impact of the 22 February Christchurch earthquake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are some debates in terms of the length of the census period. Among OECD countries there are six countries, including New Zealand and Australia, that hold a census every 5 years. There are 10 countries that hold a census every 10 years, so there are valid reasons for us to consider our statutory arrangements. France is an exception. It holds a partial census each year and the results are published as an average over 5 years. Of course there pros and cons. According to a population expert from Waikato University, moving to a 10-year census could make trans-Tasman comparisons tricky and it could create problems for historians. The strongest argument against holding a census every 5 years is the huge cost. The budget for the 2011 census was nearly $90 million, which is approximately equal to Statistics New Zealand\u2019s annual budget, excluding the census, of course. Without a 5-year census there would be more resources available to collect all of the other types of data that are relevant to work and life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EMr Andrew Whiteford, an analyst originally from South Africa, asked whether we were able to use a 10 percent sample of households. Why bother collecting data from every single household, and why not just collect the information from every 10th or 100th household? On that note, I wish that the Minister responsible for this bill would take as many calls as possible to enlighten us on these issues. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00220c00cd3ff9394c69bb4760f03ce3d423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c00cd3ff9394c69bb4760f03ce3d423\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E That last 10 minutes of this House\u2019s time was a very good reason why nobody in New Zealand should vote for the Labour Party in the next election. The issue in the second reading of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill is about two points. The first point is that a sensible decision was made to postpone the census following the earthquake in Canterbury, and the second point is that the census needs to be held again as soon as possible, within the law, and this bill provides for that. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002277026c3ef05a427d8c9ab0a01447452c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277026c3ef05a427d8c9ab0a01447452c\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have listened with great interest to the contributions to the debate on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill from Government members, and I have heard the professions of shock from Nikki Kaye and others. They were not terribly convincing, but I say well done to Nikki Kaye for her attempt. I am shocked at the process abuse that we are seeing here, with the Canterbury emergency yet again being used as an excuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024748859a8f4c59bed2a234da92a38d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: This is the guy who broke the electoral laws. This is the guy who\u2019s been referred to the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220495cd38875145a996bf23f49b6bf82f\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: That is ironic, coming from a Minister who was in contempt of court, but we will leave that one for later on. I am shocked that members opposite continue to try to wrap themselves in the flag and say Canterbury is in a terrible state, so they can do anything they like with regard to process and it does not matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI thought that the second reading contribution from the Minister in charge of the bill, the Minister of Statistics, was quite commendable. I know it was tempting to go off on a frolic, and for Maurice Williamson to make little jokes about the Oh\u0101riu census. Ha, ha! Good on you. But this bill is really important, and I hope that we can have a sensible debate about it. As the Minister said in his second reading contribution, there are concerns. What happens to the M\u0101ori electoral option? We heard from Te Ururoa Flavell that the M\u0101ori Party has had some sort of an assurance from the Minister that the M\u0101ori electoral option will remain intact, notwithstanding the deferral of the census by 2 years. I would be very interested to hear from the Minister how that is, because on my initial calculations the maths starts to get quite difficult in terms of the 5-yearly option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESimilarly, it would be useful to hear from the Minister about the effect of the deferral of the census on the population-based funding issues that he referred to. He said his colleague the Minister of Health was concerned about that because, as we all know, district health board funds are calculated on the basis of population movements. If we are to have a 7-year block now, rather than a 5-year block, what will be the effect of that on those sorts of movements? What will be the effect on the Budget? What will be the effect on the fiscal position? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThese may or may not be major issues, but they are proof. The fact that they were raised in the debate by the Minister indicates the sense of following the Standing Orders and sending this legislation to a select committee, even for a brief period of time, so that these sorts of technical questions can be addressed. This is our job; it is not an optional extra. It is what we are here to do: to scrutinise legislation to make sure that we get it right, and to deal with these sorts of issues. This is why the public pay members of Parliament what they pay us. I am shocked that members opposite can just brush these concerns aside as if they are minor procedural issues\u2014all justified because there has been an emergency in Canterbury and we do not need to think about the details. Members should just reflect on the fact that too often in this House we deal with legislation to amend and undo Acts that we have passed in the relatively recent past. I hope, for the sake of members opposite\u2014because all these speeches are on the record\u2014that we will not be in a similar position with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am disturbed, as I said earlier, about some of the legislation\u2019s language. I referred to the \u201Cobviation of the proclamation\u201D language earlier, but there is also a very, very interesting justification advanced in the explanatory note for the deferral of the census. We have the statement, reassuring on its face, that \u201CThis streamlined process relates only to the 2013 census \u2026\u201D. But then we have the quite alarming statement: \u201Cand is made in light of public announcements already issued on the next census \u2026\u201D. It is settled law in this country, which I hope every member knows, that just because a Minister announces that a statutory requirement will not be followed, it does not mean that that statutory requirement should not be followed. I am a bit taken aback to see, in an explanatory note of a bill, that one of the reasons for the bill is that a Minister has already publicly announced that something should be so. That is not how we make law in this country; it is still the role of this House to make laws. I think all members should be a bit disturbed that that has crept into the drafting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe other point I think it is worthwhile to make is that there is another part to this bill, and it has not received terribly much attention to date. I hope the Minister of Statistics feels that he is fully briefed and competent to have carriage of this part of the legislation through the House. He said he had speech notes from his colleague the Attorney-General, and I am pleased about that, because I think he will need to draw extensively on those notes in the Committee stage. I repeat, there is nothing in the proposal to allow an acting Chief Parliamentary Counsel to be appointed that disturbs the Opposition. We voted for such a position when we agreed to report the Legislation Bill back to the House. But that bill is just languishing on the Order Paper. Why is it not being brought forward for a proper debate and discussion? It would do a lot of good things to make our parliamentary procedures more effective. Instead, we have this provision plucked out of the Legislation Bill and sought to be advanced under urgency. The Minister has not addressed in any of his contributions why that is being done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EHow long can we have a Chief Parliamentary Counsel on an acting basis under this legislation? Is it proposed that it might be for 6 months, 1 year, 18 months, 2 years, or longer? There is no limit, on the face of the provisions in the bill, on how long a person might act in the very important capacity of Chief Parliamentary Counsel. I think we need to hear from the Minister about why that particular provision is being advanced under urgency, and we need to be assured that it is not a provision that simply exists and is sought to be advanced because the Minister seeks to benefit any particular individual. If the position were reversed, and it were an attempt to act to the detriment of any individual for hidden reasons, then it would clearly be unconstitutional. The reverse position must therefore also apply, and Parliament is owed disclosure as to why these provisions are seen to be so important on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI look forward to the remainder of the debate, including the Committee stage, because those matters, and in particular the last one to which I have adverted, are ones that we will continue to seek answers on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3289f86730840ac8b5364e8f1062182\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3289f86730840ac8b5364e8f1062182\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Sat sri akaal, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. I will start my contribution on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill by acknowledging my appreciation of my Opposition colleague Raymond Huo for providing a lot of information about the census and the importance of the census. Charles Chauvel also mentioned that the funding of district health boards and Government decisions are based on the census. So when two members of the Opposition are telling us that it is important to have a census, I do not know why Labour is opposing the bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a75bc3ca9f55453084e7ab96b766d540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a75bc3ca9f55453084e7ab96b766d540\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is sad when we have new members with so little to contribute to the House. The idea that members like Nikki Kaye and the member who has just spoken, Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi, fought so hard to get in here, and then they get in here and make contributions that are frankly pathetic\u2014frankly, frankly pathetic\u2014and show no understanding of having read the bill in question, show no understanding of the principles behind the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd852a1c049b4698ab1afc3fbdc71ae3\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got the notes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d5a64410734ba5a281513602041f94\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if they had borrowed the rather inadequate notes of the Minister in charge of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill, the Minister of Statistics\u2014who, I am sad to say, was, in a manner that was unusual for him, reading them in a relatively pedestrian manner during his second reading speech\u2014then that would have shown some initiative. It would have shown them to be members who wanted to be here and who were vitally interested in the matter before them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAs I indicated in my speech in the first reading debate, the first part of this bill is not very objectionable. Clearly, the census had to be delayed. There is a debate about whether it could have happened at the end of next year or whether it had to be held till 2013 on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f12b6345a0419bbdbe64ce4da723da\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: They must be held in March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c4bbef70034e639a1e987e8978d6d0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No. Actually, I say to Mr Williamson that we are changing the legislation now. The census does not have to be held in March, just like it did not have to be held in March this year. We are changing the year; we could actually change the month as well if we wanted to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e0820e079740f3a1a828d8591cda92\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s to make all the censuses so that they can be compared by year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b41869210041aa938612ad589d0204\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so the Minister wants to break the 5-year cycle, but he thinks the month is sacrosanct. Well, I accused my colleague Pete Hodgson earlier of being captured. I accused the member of being captured. The Minister is being led along by a little ring through his nose by the Government Statistician if he thinks that when there is a gap of 2 years between censuses the 6-month difference is absolutely vital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65247c6f1414c64b40274e227a9f899\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called seasonal\u2014seasonal workers. If you did it in December, you\u2019ve got a totally different set of seasonal workers in different places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f4621117d54557a19a84ef9ce5e33d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That might have been a very good argument in the 1930s; it is probably less of an argument now as our population has changed. Unlike the member, I have had some relatively recent experience in doing seasonal work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeb57937e8704cb6b879c4ef8248ab72\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Asparagus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa60eac4ede44d249fdb439c013d658c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right\u2014very slow picking of asparagus. I am prepared to say that within most areas there is some continuity of seasonal work. The fact that the Government cannot organise arrangements to make sure that people are properly paid to do that work is probably not quite relevant to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI concur with the comments that my learned colleague Charles Chauvel made with regard to the other remedial provisions. That is a lovely way of putting it. I think this is better described as a rort for an individual that is an abuse of process and something that should be frowned on. My colleague used a long word that I have never heard before, but it was explained to me about the role of Parliament and that, just as we should not pass a law to imprison\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf750b291eea4c9095414b6c019eabf4\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: You mean you didn\u2019t know, Trev?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e15e7c6b2f4ed2a3b7b8bde6481440\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are plenty of words I do not know. I am sure the member could educate me. The \u201COrange Roughy\u201D is offering. No, I do not want it\u2014no education from the \u201COrange Roughy\u201D for me, thank you. But just as Parliament should not pass laws to imprison an individual, my colleague explained to me, we should not pass laws to benefit an individual, as we appear to be doing now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed0b9811ad9744dc83428a58f3473279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed0b9811ad9744dc83428a58f3473279\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I support the previous contributions made by my colleagues, and reiterate the fact that the Minister of Statistics has quite clearly explained this Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. It would have been helpful to the House if the Opposition had actually listened to the Minister\u2019s very good explanation and actually read the bill, so they understood it. I am delighted that the Minister has brought this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285fc6c84735548ce973283f87d920c0d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, The Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225571720bb5fa4047b24b311987fcd7e4\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bacd19709e04edcae2c423c5ab4667f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Statistics Act 1975\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002213b534eacdf5446ea884f93c73a5446a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213b534eacdf5446ea884f93c73a5446a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a brief call on Part 1 of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228431ba897dff497882781a9f4185122f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re allowed four calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c611e0a4044518bce3b58fd7f9337d\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to my colleague Trevor Mallard that I am just getting warmed up, but give it some time, give it some time, and we will get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EPart 1 enables the census to take place in March 2013. Without this bill the Government Statistician would be in breach of the Statistics Act if a census is not carried out by the end of 2011. The point I want to raise here is that I think this is reasonable legislation. It is not something that the Labour Party would normally be opposed to. It is not something that I would normally be opposed to. I fully understand the circumstances that have made it impossible for the chief statistician to conduct the census this year, as required by law, but in spite of that I think it is still important that the democratic process of this House is followed. In cases of real emergency where the House needs to act quickly, it has done so. This is not one of those cases. There is no good reason why this bill needs to go through all stages in the House tonight under urgency, and why the public should not be allowed to have its say through a truncated select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have listened to all of the Government speakers. I have been here since this debate started. We have been through the first reading and the second reading and now we are in the Committee stage, and not one Government member, including the Minister of Statistics, has given us a reason why this bill must go through all stages under urgency. Not one Government member has given us a reason why the bill should not be referred to a select committee for, say, a week to allow people to make submissions. I do not think there has been a bill that I have been involved with in this Parliament that has gone to a select committee that has not been improved by the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs much as everyone may think that we have covered off every possible avenue, one of the wonders of the democratic process is that anybody can have a view on a bill, anyone can raise a concern or an issue, and quite often they actually improve the legislation as a result. I do not think there is any reason why this bill should not go through that process and people should not be allowed to do that. We could still get the bill passed in plenty of time to let the chief statistician out of the legal requirement to conduct a census before the end of this year. The earthquake that triggered the census not being able to take place occurred in February. It is now August, and this is the first time the House is debating this legislation. That is absolutely ridiculous. This could easily have been dealt with before that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESection 23 of the Statistics Act currently states: \u201CThe census of population and dwellings of New Zealand shall be taken by the Department in the year 1976 and in every fifth year thereafter.\u201D This bill changes that wording, and in this case the census will not be taken \u201Cin every fifth year\u201D; it will end up being taken in the seventh year after the last census. That does, of course, raise concerns about the compatibility of the data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI disagree with my colleague Trevor Mallard, although it is very unusual for the two of us to disagree, because I actually accept the Minister\u2019s point. I accept that the timing of the year is quite important and if we cannot take the census every fifth year, we should at least strive to take it at a time when the data will be the most comparable with the data of previous censuses. I say to my colleague Trevor Mallard that I am looking forward to his contribution on this issue. I think that taking the next census at the same time of year as the regular census would normally take place is a good thing. This bill allows for that; it allows for the census to take place in March 2013, which, I understand, was the preferred option recommended by Statistics New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other option was to move to 10-yearly censuses, as the US has done, but there are a whole lot of reasons why we would not want to do that. We have a relatively small and, in some cases, quite fluid population. I think that the 5-yearly census is the one that we should try to get back to. I hope that in every fifth year after 2013 we will continue to take a census. I would like the Minister to address that question. Will the next census take place 5 years after 2013, or will it happen sooner than 5 years after 2013? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI would certainly like the Minister to answer that question, because a lot of Government processes\u2014our democratic and constitutional processes\u2014rely on the census. The most readily cited example is the electoral boundaries. I had this discussion with the Minister of Statistics at the all-powerful\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022effc877ed07f4f028b012c31b8075dbe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Hoping to get P\u014Dmare into my electorate!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285706496a4a744cc8eb724d71db3c5f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are not many people left in P\u014Dmare, because Phil Heatley is demolishing all the houses and leaving the land empty, so it would not be much of an inheritance. At the all-powerful Government Administration Committee\u2019s hearings on the statistics estimates I raised with the Minister, Maurice Williamson, the issue of electoral boundaries, and he assured me, at that time, that holding the census in March 2013 will still allow sufficient time for the boundaries to be redrawn in time for the 2014 general election. I am sure that members will be interested in that matter, although given that there was bound to be some to-ing and fro-ing between myself and my colleague Trevor Mallard on where the boundaries should go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228fdb36f14f543c2b2d88de74477909f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want Naenae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a9db82cbf0546168a2ab296ea396387\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite happy to relieve the member of the burden of representing the people of Naenae. I think that is an area that would fit very well within the Rimutaka electorate boundaries. But coming back to the issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222726dd9c2409464eb6ddb257c3d066d2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t even know how to spell \u201CRimutaka\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022691a8176aa50470a82cdf639e68eab05\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Mallard that that is a terrible thing to say about the people he purports to represent! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI come back to this issue of why we are debating all stages of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill under urgency. We have had the first and second readings tonight, and we are now in the Committee stage, and I understand we are doing the third reading immediately after that, without having given the public even a small opportunity to make comment, without having given the select committee an opportunity to receive advice. I can say that this could have been dealt with very quickly by the select committee, and it could have gone through the process required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons why I think this bill should go through the process is that our statistics system is part of our constitutional framework. I think it is quite outrageous that the Government is proposing a change, even in this emergency situation that prompted it. It is quite outrageous that the Government is proposing a constitutional change without following any sort of democratic process in doing so. I was concerned about the process that we followed in the House immediately following the earthquake, with regard to the emergency legislation that this Parliament passed. I was willing to let those concerns go, on the basis that that was a very urgent emergency and Parliament needed to do something. But, having said that, I think we can learn a few lessons from the process that was followed there. That legislation undoubtedly could have been improved if there had been time for it to go to a select committee and for people to have a say on it. It did not, and Labour accepted that because the legislation needed to be passed urgently. This bill does not need to be passed urgently, and, actually, better management on the Government\u2019s part would have avoided the need for this bill to go through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill is still not urgent now. We still have until the House lifts for the election to pass this legislation, so we have another couple of months. Yet the Government is trying to put it through under urgency this evening. I think that is of real concern. There is no reason why the bill should not go to a select committee. There is no reason why it could not be improved through public submissions and through the select committee having the opportunity to get some advice from experts on the matter. I think that could have been done very quickly. The Minister, of course, had the regulatory impact statement on this legislation back in April. I think it is somewhat of an indictment on his effectiveness and influence that he has waited until August to bring this bill before the House. When he was confronted with that comment earlier, he mumbled something about Bill English. Then all the pennies dropped, all the bits fell into place: we understand, of course, that Bill English and Maurice Williamson are the two closest colleagues in the National Party caucus! So, of course, we fully understand why this legislation has not come before the House until now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill should have gone to a select committee. There is no reason for it to be pushed through under urgency. I look forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s answer to the question that I have just raised with him, and I look forward to contributing further as the debate progresses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022e495a2474fb241e2a20a77f13cdad9b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e495a2474fb241e2a20a77f13cdad9b3\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E Just to deal with a couple of the matters that Mr Hipkins raised, all we are doing is changing the wording of the Statistics Act 1975. In the wording it says that a census will be held \u201Cin the year 1976 and in every fifth year thereafter.\u201D All we are doing is substituting \u201C2013\u201D for \u201C1976\u201D. So yes, the wording \u201Cevery fifth year thereafter\u201D stays in the legislation, and therefore there will be a census 5 years on from 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI also re-emphasise the point that Mr Hipkins gets and that Mr Mallard does not\u2014that is, there are different times during the course of a calendar year in which people are distributed quite dramatically differently over the country. For example, members of Parliament would nearly always be back in their electorates from halfway through December to halfway through January, but would nearly always be stuck here in Wellington if we were to conduct the census some time\u2014I do not know\u2014when the House is not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e029580210b64a6ea690caa0eb8ad82b\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the Minister\u2019s problem: he is completely beholden to the bureaucrats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b130afa16902475fa01f627f617a886d\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am beholden to the bureaucrats\u2014that is right! I am beholden to the 4.2 million New Zealanders who like to move around. It is quite a clear problem if we were to take a census at a time other than March. There are also issues with regard to daylight saving. It is also about the enumerators wanting to be at the households, where they have to do the drops and the pick-ups, during daylight hours. We could not be doing it right now in June, July, or August. Then we have the Christmas rush, and so on. I do not think any great deal of explanation is needed about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe last thing that the member asked was whether I could give him an assurance that the census would allow for the electoral boundaries to be done. Actually, that has had tighter time frames in the past. If we think about the census that was conducted in March 2001, we see that boundary changes were made for the 2002 election. It is nearly 2 years: the census is in March 2013 and the election will be sort of November 2014. So there is plenty of time for the Representation Commission to get its work done, to get its draft boundaries\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223477614f92cb4289937267a80d69a8ed\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f558484387974b4e97ba3a30fa781761\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u002215ee901eaab74ed2873ac517f45743da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215ee901eaab74ed2873ac517f45743da\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Ni hao. I say a big thankyou to the Minister of Statistics for that valuable contribution\u2014that excellent contribution. My colleagues Chris Hipkins, Trevor Mallard, and Charles Chauvel spoke earlier in a detailed way as to why Labour believes that it would have been very important to have a select committee hearing on the bill. There are lots of important issues that will not be addressed, so it is not only about the process but also about the essence of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFor instance, as I said in my first reading speech, there is an increasing demand from iwi for statistical information as more Treaty settlements are agreed. Statistics New Zealand, as I understand, is working with iwi to identify what types of statistics would be most useful for collective management of transferred assets. I have two questions. Given that we are ramming the bill through under urgency, and there is no avenue for us to debate this issue at a select committee, I would be very grateful for the Minister to enlighten us. I am wondering whether the Minister has ever considered, firstly, whether the issue could be addressed in consideration of the 2013 census, and, secondly, what types of statistics would best serve M\u0101ori to support the management of assets obtained from Treaty settlements. Those are my two questions, and I would be very grateful if the Minister could enlighten us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff279e5f897c463f84f1beb13b02bdb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff279e5f897c463f84f1beb13b02bdb0\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I say first off that I appreciate the Minister of Statistics taking a call immediately after Mr Hipkins\u2019 contribution in the Committee stage, and the bona fide attempt to address the questions that were raised. I said in my earlier contribution that I had one or two questions about Part 1 of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill, and I hope that the Minister will be minded to take a call and answer those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI suppose the first question asks why the Minister feels he needs separate legislation to effect this change, and whether any consideration was given to simply enacting this amendment under the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Act. On my reading of that legislation, it could have been accomplished by an Order in Council under the emergency legislation. Although normally no one on this side of the Chamber would advance that as a preferred option, the reality is that at least if that course had been adopted, there would have been better scrutiny than this legislation will receive from this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EUnder the Canterbury emergency legislation there would have been a two-stage scrutiny process. First, the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Review Panel, headed by Sir John Hansen, would have scrutinised the legislation. Secondly, the Regulations Review Committee would have considered the legislation under the grounds of the Standing Orders. Under the process the Minister has chosen, the only scrutiny that the legislation will receive is the half an hour or so that we are devoting to it in this Committee of the whole House. So I would be interested in knowing whether the Minister and his colleagues considered using the process they put in place to deal with Canterbury emergencies, given that this is\u2014we are told, and we accept\u2014a question arising out of such an emergency. At least there would have been that better scrutiny. If not, why instead are we here dealing with all of this under urgency? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Minister has dealt with one of my concerns because it was raised by Mr Hipkins. It related to the issue of drawing the boundaries for the next election, and he said that that has been done on tighter time frames before this. But it would be useful to hear from the Minister about what assurances the M\u0101ori Party received concerning the M\u0101ori electoral option\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262020a5386894704a2db5a44ec600b6b\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. What secret deals have been done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a257f37a5db4cc4b95f820304781b3a\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, good on the M\u0101ori Party for seeking those assurances. I am not attributing anything negative to that exercise, but it would be useful to know what the assurance was. I think that members on this side of the Chamber would also be interested to know, and to be assured that the M\u0101ori electoral option has been preserved safely and will not be jeopardised in its administration by the proposal to move the census forward 2 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ESimilarly, as I mentioned in my earlier speech, I ask, in response to a proper admission by the Minister that he has canvassed the issue of population-based funding for district health boards with his colleague the Minister of Health, what is to be done in order to secure health board funding on a rational basis, given the moving of the census forward 2 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe concern I referred to earlier on this part related to the language that is used in the legislation and in the explanatory note. It would be useful, I think, to have an assurance from the Minister, on the record, that the deferral of the proclamation process is intended as only a one-time exercise, and that it is not intended that the process be done away with by way of an erosion of the independence of the Government Statistician. As was indicated earlier, there is a reason for that process. It is important, and it exists as a significant feature of the statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, it would be useful to have an assurance from the Minister that he is concerned, as I am, that the apparent breach of the principle in Fitzgerald v Muldoon contained in the explanatory note is an accident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022a71638f3e6bc4b5e9b8a69bbd940defb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a71638f3e6bc4b5e9b8a69bbd940defb\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on Part 1 and to ask a few questions. Ordinarily we would have at this stage of a bill a lot more information. This bill would have gone to a select committee, and a whole host of people with an interest in doing the census and in statistics, as well as people who use the data, would have given a lot of advice. We do not know what that advice would be, so I wonder whether the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, could explain the implications of deferring the census until 2013 and now having a 7-year gap between censuses. What are statisticians and demographers saying about that change? What kind of adjustments will need to be made to the data so that there is some comparability down the line, so that users of the data will have some way of knowing or working out what that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe data sets we currently have go back to 1975, so there is a 35-year data set collected at the same time at regular intervals. But that will be changed for ever, in a sense, by our going to a 7-year gap, and then resuming 5 years after that. I wonder what advice the Minister has received about those changes, and what the implications might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMore fundamentally, a select committee would have given us the opportunity to examine, however briefly\u2014and it could have been brought together quite quickly\u2014the modern census, so to speak. The Minister said that he has asked some questions about a modern census, but he had no answers. What were the questions the Minister asked, and what was his thinking about the kinds of parameters a modern census might have? Censuses have not always been the same for the hundreds of years that censuses have been done. But now the technology has changed in this field. The data that is regularly collected in all kinds of ways is also available from different sources now. So what was the Minister thinking about that data?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EPerhaps more fundamentally, there is also a move now not to hold censuses but to conduct surveys. Those surveys are almost like a series of cross-sectional studies that tell us what is happening to our population, and they are done more regularly. Why has the Minister not taken the opportunity\u2014because it comes quite rarely\u2014to have this kind of thinking done in relation to censuses and census change? There are new methodologies and new ways of using data. With the kind of consultation that we have in mind\u2014and this is why members on this side are opposing this bill\u2014even users of censuses would identify the different types of data that are now required. Here was an opportunity, through a select committee, to have that kind of discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EMy colleague Raymond Huo talked quite a bit about the need for data in the M\u0101ori community, and appropriately so. New Zealand\u2019s ethnic diversification is now quite advanced, but we have only so much data about that. In the last 6 months or so, I have been going through data, and I can see the holes in that data. Here was an opportunity to reflect on the kinds of data required by our ethnic communities and those who provide services to, and engage with, them, etc. Has the Minister not given any thought to that? What advice has the Minister received about the kinds of data that would help us understand that diversification in greater depth? Maybe the Minister has thought about that. Maybe he can give us some reading on what his thoughts are, essentially, on different types of methods, different types of data, and the views of key people out there\u2014not only the experts like demographers and statisticians but also the users of that data. Could the Minister tell us what was their thinking? If there has been any conversation with them, then what concerns of theirs have been identified at this stage? We would like to get some idea of that. Finally, there is the question of the implications of the 7-year gap. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c681f3c0d1c4eb094205ca7a0e4eb74\u0022\u003EPart 2  Statutes Drafting and Compilation Act 1920\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00220f0489d41af34c3e87d8cd8056de2311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f0489d41af34c3e87d8cd8056de2311\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c79f5eb77d1342738d51d1fcd9986ee0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your Tahitian greeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f609db108dc74c9a81045d32076630ef\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Iaorana. The Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, did not deign to reply to the concerns I raised about Part 1. I hope he will not take that approach to Part 2, given that this is the only scrutiny, as I have said, that this bill will get. I spoke to the Chief Parliamentary Counsel a couple of weeks ago. He is a fine man and he does a fine job. He told me that he was undertaking a task back in the United Kingdom and that he would be there for some time, but that the Government had kindly agreed to facilitate his temporary return to the United Kingdom Public Service by arranging for him to continue in the role of Chief Parliamentary Counsel and for there to be an Acting Chief Parliamentary Counsel appointed in his place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIf that is the reason that the National-led Government is rushing these provisions of the Legislation Bill through the House, then I would have thought it would be incumbent on the Minister and on the Government to advise the House of that fact. There has been no such disclosure, and no such attempt to explain that that might be the reason for this apprehended urgency to deal with the provisions in Part 2. I will recap those provisions. They update an antiquated piece of legislation, and everybody agrees it is antiquated. It is legislation from the 1920s, when Government departments were run in a very different way from the way in which they are run now. As I said earlier, the Labour Opposition has no problem in substance with these provisions. We reported the Legislation Bill back to the House from the Regulations Review Committee unanimously and with support, after having heard evidence from a number of senior officials, former Chief Parliamentary Counsel, and the Attorney-General as well. So there is no issue with the provisions themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EOur question is why it is intended that these particular provisions of the Legislation Bill should be severed and brought to the House to be passed under urgency in the way that the Minister has brought them forward, dressing them up with the legislation relating to the census in a bill entitled the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I say well done to the Minister on his imaginativeness; it is always entertaining. But on this occasion it would be nice to know why it was thought necessary to deal with the matter under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs Mr Mallard said in an earlier contribution, we do not in this Parliament legislate in respect of individuals to their detriment. That would be a bill of attainder or legislation of that nature. It is unconstitutional; we do not do it. But if that principle is correct, then also it would be inappropriate, to say the least, to legislate for the private benefit of any individual unless we were very clear about why that was being done. As I said earlier, if that is what is being done here, it ought to be done openly, rather than in some sort of covert fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI would like to hear from the Minister about why the urgency is attached to the provisions concerning an Acting Chief Parliamentary Counsel, and I would also like to know, as would members on this side of the Chamber, how these provisions might apply in practice if, for example, the current holder of the office of Chief Parliamentary Counsel is away for some time. What is the intended tenure of any Acting Chief Parliamentary Counsel? Might we be contemplating quite a long period of that person\u2019s tenure: up to, say, 2 years? Is that not something that ought to be disclosed, declared, and debated openly, at least in this Committee? As numerous speakers have pointed out, this is the only occasion on which that discussion will be able to occur. I urge the Minister to use this one and only opportunity in the process that he has invoked to advise his fellow members of Parliament of the position in respect of this particular part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002242bfee90a25443d7b3daa88bf8ea6d32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242bfee90a25443d7b3daa88bf8ea6d32\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I am getting slightly anxious about the habit of this Minister of Statistics\u2014and it appears to be a growing habit, and one that is unusual for him to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ada4bd4e074b447d9c9be4556224167b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e00d3ccacc4d339631e6e5a68faf3e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a growing habit. The Minister used to be quite forthcoming in the House. I think it is fair to say that the Minister used to be forthcoming in places other than the House, as well. It seems to me that the Minister has lost his tongue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b426ed40862245c5ba76d56cc88ed707\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Michelle Boag had her way, eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e7a2a8b4134389a217063743bd0a59\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he has crawled back into his shell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cba0ab591c54b0188d2730425789e11\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the Attorney-General took it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220918c140624a489ea2a1a3122c398504\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I will get on to the Attorney-General relatively soon. I was not planning to take a call now, but the fact is that the Minister has not answered the questions my learned colleague Charles Chauvel asked on the first part of this bill\u2014the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill\u2014and he has not yet placed on the record his response to the questions I asked him, in the first reading debate, in relation to the Electoral Act. I am somewhat surprised that the member is not giving those responses and is thereby extending the debate in a way that, frankly, does not seem absolutely necessary. But it is the responsibility of the Opposition to hold the Minister to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI request, or suggest, that it would be appropriate for the Attorney-General to make a contribution in this debate. The Parliamentary Counsel Office works under him. I understand he has been somewhat unusually involved in the terms and conditions of employment for the current Chief Parliamentary Counsel in a way that many of us would think would be unwise. If it is correct that an offer was made to have this sort of arrangement developed for an individual for a period of up to 2 years, that would be remarkable, and it would be good if we did have the Attorney-General in the Chamber in order to explain the position and, I hope, put paid to what is quite an unfortunate positioning for the chief legal officer of the Parliamentary Counsel Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other person I am somewhat concerned about is the State Services Commissioner. During my time as Minister of State Services there was an appointment to the position of Chief Parliamentary Counsel, but, frankly, because there were probably 50 or 60 such appointments during that time, this one has not stuck in my head. I know that with the Government Statistician there is an unusual arrangement. It is one where the State Services Commissioner has the right to appoint and the normal veto right of Cabinet does not apply. What I am not sure of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ba819d7b13495c91289de2489cd14d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b36afac820049ccbf4686ad98cedbed\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is the opposite. So it is a normal chief executive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49930b45d4b4b59b2a05ff109ca1d9d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: No. Cabinet can invite the State Services Commissioner to help, but there\u2019s no obligation for him to be involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8196f0520564e3d8823b554be2278db\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so in this case it is apparently a bit like the Commissioner of Police and the Defence Force, where there has been a developing tradition\u2014and, I think, an important one\u2014of the involvement of the State Services Commissioner in running a process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c02f3df0a94989a4c3e39b47f15971\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Or by the invitation of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d27e39773b4ba4950f55a31f0da31a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: By the invitation of the Minister or, in some cases, actually by the invitation of the Prime Minister. Certainly the senior police position is one that is done by the invitation of the Prime Minister, and it may\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2b5c44da15e46bab1ec075a9d74cf16\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the Governor-General, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721760a2c95a41e39770c939a1c9439a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think the recommendations go to the Governor-General but they go from the Prime Minister, as with most chief executives and certainly most of those that I was involved with when I was the Minister of State Services. I effectively signed off those recommendations after consultation with colleagues on the Cabinet committee. We certainly never had the position where we reversed out a recommendation that had come through. That is a matter for notification under the Act, and that certainly did not happen. But, as my colleague has informed me, in the case of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel it is something that appears to be in the gift of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e3c6b07fb94cd4a9bcddd014e7b6e2\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not statutory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24e571252994b1b976613ce9304de59\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: And there is a question there. I think that raises another issue\u2014that is, whether that is an appropriate position and whether in this day and age it is appropriate to have someone who is effectively chief executive of a small but important department of State whose process involves a gifting of a position from a Minister to that particular individual. That is, I think, the way things used to be done back before 1912. Again, I am looking to Simon Power. He does not remember, either. There have been some clear processes since the State sector reforms in 1987 or 1986\u2014one of those years. One was the State-owned enterprises and the other was the State Sector Act; it was one of those. There have been clearer processes since that time, but we have had a tradition for a long period of, effectively, the decisions on these positions being made by the State Services Commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut that appears not to be the case, and I am searching\u2014and possibly my colleague could be drafting as I search\u2014as to whether there is any possibility of importing into this legislation, even at this late stage, such an arrangement, whereby the Chief Parliamentary Counsel has proper process around his or her appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ECan I get some indication from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, as to whether he is prepared to reply to the comments that my colleague Charles Chauvel has made? No\u2014in fact, there is no indication that the Minister is alive. I know this has not been the most exciting debate. The Chief Parliamentary Counsel is not quite as exciting as the Government Statistician\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b347438e56e34255b1760ceeaa7d36c8\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289d39edbc2c432cbcadf152022ca51d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is a bit of debate here between two members I respect. If it is just as exciting, then why is the Minister in the chair going to sleep when he has been asked to respond on his own behalf, or when he could ask his colleague the Attorney-General to respond? I never thought I would be saying that. I never ever thought I would be asking for the Attorney-General to get off his backside and make a speech in this House. The idea that I would ask Chris Finlayson to get off his backside and make a speech is something that feels relatively foreign to me, and I am concerned at the very thought that I should be making such a suggestion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe next question is this. If, in fact, the Chief Parliamentary Counsel is going away for a couple of years, should the gifting of his\u2014in this case his, but in other cases his or her\u2014replacement be in that individual\u2019s hands? Although I view with some disdain the arrangements as to the appointment of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel and the lack of involvement of the State Services Commissioner and the lack of a proper process around these arrangements, having had these arrangements the question then is whether it should be appropriate, especially for an appointment of 2 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe have had chief executives appointed for 2 years, or sometimes shorter times\u2014down to 18 months on particular occasions. If we are having appointments that are so long\u20142 years\u2014should it be in the hands of the individual to appoint his or her own replacement? At the end of this speech, I will give the Minister a chance to answer, or I will call on my learned colleague Lynne Pillay to make her contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022836c3cfef173469782d735520130b74d\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002210bc341e61dc4725a7dc0819184dc532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210bc341e61dc4725a7dc0819184dc532\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E The question now is whether the bill is appropriately titled. I think it is not. I think the title is an indication of a rort. It is called the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. Actually, to be fair it should be titled the \u201CCensus Deferral Bill\u201D, or the \u201CAbility to Appoint Your Successor for a Period of 2 Years Bill\u201D as far as Part 2 is concerned. There could well be a number of better titles for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think part of the title works pretty well. The end of the title has the year \u201C2011\u201D. I think that is appropriate, and I think it is pretty much unanimous that we will support that. But I invite the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, to consider even at this late stage whether he has a mind to\u2014it is a bit like truth in sentencing; we could ask Rodney Hide whether he had a better name for it\u2014give us a title for this bill that more accurately reflects its contents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c066d1676dd24bf59b0da9831782f7f2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We are actually debating clauses 1 and 2, not just clause 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8992ace67614bd0be35f40ca9634168\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I could have gone on for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229517842acfce4f248965188af0c31219\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just making it very clear. We will put the clauses separately when it comes to the vote, but the question is that clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00223161c31cd5444309a296b608c35c96e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223161c31cd5444309a296b608c35c96e7\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with my colleague Mr Mallard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227761811294114c5e8e8faf5df7c88f02\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: And that is an unusual thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de34c5e768ee4286b0c1d6ef122dade1\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not necessarily a usual thing. But it is correct that the bill is not aptly titled. As I suggested earlier, to try to cloak what is being done here in the innocuous title of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill is to actually obscure what is being attempted. Two things are going on here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFirst of all, there is the deferral of the census. As has been said, members on this side of the Chamber accept that that had to be done. Our argument is with the process. It should have gone to a select committee for a couple of weeks. We should have heard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9e601c991d431cb9d3b993ff06ea2b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Why? Why? Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0c07f8ce1b447497482811112f9569\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite ask why, why, why. The tragedy of this is that we have had the current Standing Orders in more or less their current form since 1986, and still we have to educate National on process. We are a unicameral Parliament. Our select committees are the only place where reasonable scrutiny can occur, and still we have the question years and years after\u201425 years after\u20141986, asking why bother with select committees. Well, actually, process matters, because what it does in the end is assist the Parliament to make better laws. One of the tragedies of the New Zealand Parliament over years and years is that National\u2019s contribution to it has been flawed laws, because National thinks, always, that the end justifies the means. Well, it does not. There were very legitimate questions raised during the debate and the discussion around whether the deferral of the census as proposed by the bill was a useful and justifiable thing to do, and what the effect of that deferral would be. But we will never know the answers, because Maurice Williamson, Minister of Statistics, knows best, and this bill was never going to go to a select committee. That is really what is going on here, and the innocuous title of the bill obscures that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe other thing that is going on here is what I referred to when I spoke about the position of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel. I make it clear that there is no criticism of David Noble here. He has been a terrific Chief Parliamentary Counsel, and I hope he continues for a long time in that office. I think it is an excellent thing if he has been given some development opportunities by way of some further work experience in the United Kingdom, provided that proper administrative arrangements are being put in place back at the Parliamentary Counsel Office, so that its duties can continue to be discharged. But we do not know anything about that, and we never will, because again the Minister has not taken a call on those issues. The public and the New Zealand Parliament are not deemed worthy by this Government to have these issues disclosed to them. This is just all about the Government saying it will take the provisions that suit it out of bills, then ram the bills through under urgency, and, basically, the public\u2019s right to know be damned. That is the attitude we saw today from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics\u2014that is, if he even knows about these arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI suspect that one of the issues that might be going on here is that the Attorney-General has made these arrangements and not bothered to tell his ministerial colleague. Otherwise, why would we not have heard from the Minister on what, surely, are proper administrative arrangements for the conduct of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel\u2019s office? So I say that this bill is not well named. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ee4bbb641a49f49d8303111b9077a3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to hear what the member is saying, so please calm it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9795e4d80545a6aefa067b24b92f84\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, this bill is not well named. To talk about the duties of statutory officers, when in fact what is going on here is the census deferral without any expert advice or public testimony in a select committee, along with the regularising of an arrangement with the Parliamentary Counsel Office, which the Minister is very, very reluctant to talk about for some reason\u2014if he even knows about it\u2014indicates that calling the bill what it is called is all part of an attempt to cloak it in mystery and subterfuge. That is a real shame, because these are matters that should have been openly debated and ventilated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0a27f4677e4d109b1e29a212d0e0ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0a27f4677e4d109b1e29a212d0e0ea\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E The reluctance of the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, to take a call in response to the wonderful contributions from my colleagues has prompted me to also take a call. But I want to acknowledge something that was chipped across the Chamber from the other side. It was a rare occasion, when Tau Henare said something that was quite funny. I usually do not acknowledge what the member does, but he has been at my select committee, the Commerce Committee, on the odd occasion and he has behaved in a rather mature and sensible way, so I want to acknowledge the very, very funny statement that he chipped across the Chamber in respect of the \u201CSensible Census Trust\u201D, which he felt would be prompted to react by the disgrace of this Government passing this bill through all of its stages under urgency. I congratulate that member on an amusing little aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe serious issue that all of the speakers on our side of the Chamber have raised is in respect of a bill that has a title like this one\u2014namely, the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. Here we are as parliamentarians with duties to undertake our obligations in a particular way, and they are being completely ignored. That is why I find the title of the bill somewhat ironic. The fact that the legislation comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent is equally an issue for me, because this bill, as we know, could have been prepared with sufficient time for it to go to a select committee and have all manner of individuals contribute to the discussion on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c16c0dfc654a1a8da77e047926a21c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: No, there\u2019s no need. We know what it\u2019s about. It\u2019s about counting people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e8e2dfeaad420b90057972ead0339c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have already explained to this Committee, and I will explain it again for the member, because I know that he is interested in everything that I am saying, and he is hanging off every word. The agency disclosure statement of the regulatory impact statement was signed on 6 April this year. I am sorry, but is it not August now? How many months is that? April, May, June, July, August\u2014that is 4 months ago. What has the Minister been doing for 4 months in order to bring this legislation before us? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe decision not to hold the census was made in March. It was due to be held on International Women\u2019s Day, 8 March, and it was deferred for a very good reason. We all agree with its being deferred. Of course we could not hold the census. The census office was completely devastated by the earthquake, so the duties of statutory officers and census officers could not be undertaken. I understand the title of the bill in respect of that element, but I think we could have had a discussion, a public debate, about what the alternative was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAlthough the regulatory impact statement talks about three options, I think there were, in fact, only two: the one that the Government has chosen, and the other, which was to defer it altogether, so that the next census would be held in 2016. The Minister has not really described in detail why this particular option was taken, and why it had to be done in this manner so that there was no opportunity for any public debate. That is why, in an earlier debate on the bill, I tried to table a copy of the document titled CERA: Residential Red Zone Offers\u2014Summary of Sale Process\u2014draft for discussion, which is marked as \u201CConfidential\u2014not Government policy\u201D. Now I have downloaded a whole lot of other documents from the New Zealand Law Society website. Perhaps the Government whip will allow me to seek leave again at the end of my contribution. I have several other documents that are all on the New Zealand Law Society website, none of which have been consulted on with any of the people who will be receiving offers from the Government in respect of the red zone. I think it is completely out of order, but completely in line with the way that this bill has been approached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill is entitled the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. The duty of a Government is to consult with affected parties before putting together details of such an agreement, and I think it is a tragedy that this Government treats us with such disrespect and does not follow its duties as it should otherwise be obliged to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022483bd2deb750491298956ebb98d19eb2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e974372b1b347c89cccd1b64a251c68\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00228be27cdf07b047098fb363ea582b24ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228be27cdf07b047098fb363ea582b24ba\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a third time. Although the Leader of the House has been insisting that I take the full 10 minutes, I will not do the full 10 minutes. All I will say\u2014and this is offered by way of a bit of advice to Labour, and I genuinely mean it\u2014is that I understand why it digs in on some things; I think it is right for an Opposition to dig in. But this bill tonight does one thing: it changes the date of the census from 2011 to 2013. It does not change the scope of it, it does not change the questions that will be asked, it does not change the mechanisms or functions, and it does not change anything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut Labour dug in tonight to say this legislation should have gone to a select committee. Can members imagine the questions? \u201CTwenty-one-three\u2014is that how you spell 2013? Ah, yes. What else could I ask? \u201D The select committee would be struggling for anything else. I know they got it wrong on the voluntary student unionism bill, and the media gave them a smack for it, but I advise the members on the other side of the House to pick their fights. This was not one to have a fight on, because this is simply about putting a new date on to the statute book because we were committed under the current law to hold a census in 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI thank my colleagues for the support in getting this bill through the House tonight. I think it is a very good step forward. It will mean that the electoral boundaries can be redone in time for the 2014 election. It means that the M\u0101ori electoral option can be conducted. It means that absolutely everything that we were ever planning to do in 2011 will happen 2 years later. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4ae5370667043c5b4dc47fbef128a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4ae5370667043c5b4dc47fbef128a9f\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I listened rather attentively to the contributions from the National MPs on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. It is fair for me to say that the best contribution was from my Asian colleague Mr Bakshi, who just commended the bill to the House without claiming the moral high ground in attacking Labour members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EFor many National MPs, when there is a problem, there is an excuse. For instance, the National-ACT Government has failed to present any plans to grow our economy. They say: \u201COops, there is a financial crisis worldwide.\u201D There was a 6-month gap, or so, between when the decision was made not to hold the census and when the Government said \u201COops, there is urgency.\u201D, because without the bill the Government Statistician would have been in breach of the Statistics Act. That warranted the Minister to ram through the bill under urgency without referring it to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EIt is very satisfying, however, that in my earlier speech I said that National MPs had built up a very good habit of taking short calls, and that they would take short calls during this debate. They have taken turns to take short calls; I cannot be convinced that they have taken this bill very seriously, in respect of either its contents or its process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe process is very important. It is about the core values of how Parliament operates. That is why I ask members opposite to please exercise some forbearance in claiming the moral high ground on shutting down the democratic process. It is disappointing that the Minister of Statistics\u2014a very willing and able Minister\u2014did not answer some very important questions that were asked, particularly those questions of my colleague Charles Chauvel. Again, as my colleague Charles Chauvel said, this is our only opportunity for some important issues to be addressed, given that the bill is being rammed through under urgency. I reiterate that I am not litigating the actual decision, but I am left wondering about the constitutional niceties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EWe agree with the policy objectives of this bill, but we cannot support the way in which the Government is seeking to rush important constitutional changes through Parliament without giving the public a chance to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245730dd253034bb7834c72c1c227a764\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I thought this was going to be a short call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d59460e85c4b42a1355f8e88e68d58\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member that in my speech at the first reading, I said that National MPs had built up a very strange habit of taking short calls. You guys just took turns to take short calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fb7ec8016e4b22a69870a10eb5fba3\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t use \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd2cc0addf844789fcdf89129da73ea\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; I apologise to the Deputy Speaker. It is not good enough to try to convince the public that National MPs are very serious about this bill, either in respect of its content or in respect of its process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EDuring the debate some National MPs said they were shocked that Labour did not support this bill. There are some issues that are very shocking, and they could have been addressed in a timely manner if the bill had been referred to the select committee. For instance, Statistics New Zealand\u2019s statement of intent for 2011 stated that Statistics New Zealand has \u201Ca high proportion of inexperienced staff [which] poses a risk to the production of timely and accurate statistics.\u201D I am sure the public wish to know about how Statistics New Zealand is managing the risks posed by the high proportion of inexperienced staff, and what steps will be taken in 2011 and 2012 to recruit more staff with the necessary experience, in leading up to the 2013 census. The Minister cannot say that \u201COops, that\u2019s an operational matter.\u201D, and that his job is just to get the bill rammed through under urgency. That is not good enough. It is not fair to Statistics New Zealand, and it is not fair to the general public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThere are some important issues that I wish could be addressed properly. For instance, should we hold a census every 5 years, or every 10 years? Among OECD countries, at least 10 countries hold a census every 10 years. It is also argued by some experts that we could collect data by way of a survey, for instance. Although congratulating the Minister on ramming through the 21st bill under urgency under this National-ACT Government, I say to the Minister that the general public of New Zealand have just lost another good opportunity. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00220386a5ec17464d5eb8a87fa57b20534b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220386a5ec17464d5eb8a87fa57b20534b\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak on the third reading of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I acknowledge the support right across this House for this legislation, including National, the Greens, the M\u0101ori Party, Tau Henare, Simon Bridges, and Todd McClay. In conclusion, basically everybody supports this bill, except for Labour. This legislation is one of the briefest bills I have seen since I have been in Parliament. The purpose of it is to enable the 2013 census to actually happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI just want to briefly traverse the arguments we have heard from the Opposition. Firstly, Raymond Huo went slightly off the reservation when he opposed this bill, because I saw members opposite in a slight state of shock. Secondly, Lianne Dalziel and Pete Hodgson said that the reason they opposed this bill was that it was being passed during urgency. We have been very clear that this is in response to what has been the largest natural disaster that New Zealand has ever seen, and that is one of the reasons why we need to defer the census and pass this legislation. Thirdly, we heard from Lianne Dalziel that one of the big issues she had with this bill was that the regulatory impact statement was passed in April, but the point we have made is that two other decisions had to happen as a result of that: whether to hold the census and the date on which to hold the census. Finally, we heard a number of contradictory speeches from Labour. Lianne Dalziel was suggesting 10-year censuses and Trevor Mallard proposed holding the census in December, not March. Then we heard the trifecta from Chris Hipkins. He totally disagreed with both Lianne Dalziel and Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f4a4a6cd6f4eb5af5863ace1dd827c\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Four times now we have seen Lianne Dalziel have the indignity of having her name mispronounced. I would ask the member to use it properly. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8ccbfdfcab40b383e7c484d93f0e97\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of orders are held in silence. Well, the member is in the Chamber, and if she felt offended by it\u2014she is shaking her head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ded128746d54332a04093d3295e1219\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I am offended!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b5b03da5434418bccdbf8b48d5f5e7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is up to the member to take offence. We will leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f192fbaebd44dc898aff6889204e62\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: We have heard very contradictory speeches from Labour. That is not unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, we support this legislation because we believe it is very important to hold a census in 2013. It is very important so that we do not have over-representation or under-representation in our electorates. It is very important that the businesses and the community organisations of this country have accurate information. We support this very non-controversial legislation. I am shocked that Labour is not supporting it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac62a1240f064cb391f32273faada944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac62a1240f064cb391f32273faada944\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture gave some advice at the beginning of his third reading speech. He said: \u201CDon\u2019t dig in on this legislation.\u201D I will explain just briefly, for his benefit, why we did dig in. If the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill was about the census only\u2014because the Minister did not address half of the bill; he addressed only the proposal to defer the census\u2014then our criticisms would have been around only the failure to have a short select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EMembers opposite earlier yelled out and asked what we would do in the select committee. There are a number of questions that were ventilated in the debate. Members who have been here for the entire debate will know this. Those questions include the question of what the effect is of moving from a set of data collected over 5-year blocks and then trying to compare that data with a 7-year block. It is a matter of vital importance for the national data mine. We do not know the answer. We have never heard the answer. We do not know the answer to that question. If there had been a select committee process, with some experts coming along to tell members of Parliament about the effects of comparing a set of 5-year data and a set of 7-year data on our economic statistics and on all sorts of other information of national importance, I suspect that would have been pretty reassuring, assuming that the answer was that it would not have a major deleterious effect on the ability to compare those data blocks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe would have asked whether it was still feasible to set electoral boundaries on time. We heard from the Minister an assurance that it will be, and he quoted two precedents. Again, we probably accept that the Minister is well advised, but it would have been useful to drill into that question with the advice of the officials. We heard an assurance repeated to us by a M\u0101ori Party member and by the Minister that there has been a guarantee that the M\u0101ori electoral option will be unaffected. Again, it would have been useful to hear the detail of that, rather than having to rely just on a ministerial assurance, which is all we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThen there is the issue that I raised; the precedent-setting effect of doing away with the proclamation process, which puts the setting of the date of the census at arm\u2019s length from the executive. The Minister told us that that provision was not an attempt to set a precedent, but, again, to have been able to record that in a select committee report back to the House, rather than simply relying on an offhand comment in the Hansard from the Minister, would have been much more reassuring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs I said, the Minister did not address a whole half of the bill. I reiterate that it makes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e967278dbc543a0a24aebdfc285263b\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: A whole half?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b5679262e14cbfa82fb35ab110d078\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a whole half of the bill, I say to Ms Goudie\u2014the bit that relates to the Chief Parliamentary Counsel. As I said earlier, we have no argument with the incumbent in that office. He is an excellent Chief Parliamentary Counsel, and we have no concerns about the substance of the proposal. Of course it makes sense that the Chief Parliamentary Counsel ought to be able to delegate his powers in this day and age. Of course it makes sense that he ought to be able to have a deputy to act on his behalf in his absence. We supported those provisions in the Legislation Bill. But the question we posed was why we should pluck these particular provisions out of that bill and put them through under urgency. Why do that when it is proposed that the current Chief Parliamentary Counsel be absent from the country for a significant length of time? Why the secrecy? Why does the Government not want ordinary New Zealanders to know what is being done with taxpayers\u2019 dollars in the administration of the office that drafts our laws? That is what I do not understand. If the answer is that this Minister just does not know the answers, then he should not have come to the House with carriage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn the end, this bill reeks of bad process. The lesson we should have learnt by now in this House is that bad process leads to bad outcomes, and that is the reason members on this side of the House have dug in and will not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022864457eddd6f469b95eb1b571df5fb91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022864457eddd6f469b95eb1b571df5fb91\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the third reading of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill. I have to refute those comments by the previous speaker, Charles Chauvel. This bill is absolutely straightforward. It will do two things. It will shift the date of the next census to 2013, and, as the last speaker just said, it makes some very sensible recommendations around the Chief Parliamentary Counsel and delegations during a period of absence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThere is nothing underhand about this bill. We have had to put up with 2 hours of nonsensical filibuster. If I have learnt one thing in this life, it is that saying from Confucius: \u201CWhen you\u2019re in a hole, stop digging.\u201D With those words I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u00220d6fddcb758941f79ac8856014429e9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d6fddcb758941f79ac8856014429e9e\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was quite an arrogant statement from the previous speaker, John Hayes\u2014that we have just spent 2 hours doing nothing. National members have been sitting here since the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill was introduced, and they are the ones who have treated this House with contempt, absolute contempt. Reasonable questions have been asked. National members have not been able to see through a very simple bill and answer the kinds of questions that one would logically ask because there is an opportunity to ask them. In fact, National members have come to the House with a proposal and expected us to simply rubber stamp it, just because they say so and as if we have no right to ask questions or to have those questions answered. In fact, National members have simply taken meaningless calls that last a few seconds. One call was barely two sentences long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c3d1bba72c4813944a4df9f7a3ec66\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: This man was born in the first census.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b06843c5d80a446d914b514a95019631\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolute contempt, I say to Mr Bridges. If the member felt strongly about anything, he would rise, take a call, and make his point, but there are no points to make. The census is an important activity, and we should take it seriously. We should take the opportunity with every clause in every bill that comes to the House to look through it, to look beyond it, and to ask questions. We expect to have those questions answered. Those things become even more important when there is no select committee process. But, no, members opposite simply thought that this would be a simple process. They rammed it through under urgency, and we are supposed to sit here like I do not know what. I simply say that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Minister of Statistics, began to simply treat us with contempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3064ee88dc84979bb2956fc0aa9cc2b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Be nice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343a5a8045e6486ca9fc2f281495bf4e\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: I am normally very nice to the Minister, but on this occasion he either did not have the answers or refused to give them to us. Very sensible questions have been put forward by Charles Chauvel this evening\u2014very sensible questions\u2014and they have not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EI will tell members that the heart of contempt was this: Maurice Williamson knew the reason for the second part of this bill. The Minister knew the reason. It would have been reasonable to tell the House that we have an issue\u2014a delegation is not there, or a person is going overseas\u2014and we need to have that provision put in place. But that had to be dragged out of him by Charles Chauvel through questions. The Minister defended himself by saying it was not in his notes. That should have been in the first reading speech, and that should have happened, but it did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWe are not happy with the process this bill has gone through. We blame the other side. National is responsible for the process, and it should have run this thing far better than it did. All National members wanted to say to us was that they were disappointed that we were asking questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232018abcb5a843419817ca45d116fb3d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Not angry, just disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e41a58e94e44698a0cfec7e9bb3e2f2\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was stronger than that, I say to Mr Power, which he would know if he had been here. Actually, Mr Power has been here most of the evening, so he knows the kinds of questions I am posing. There is contempt from members on the other side. They have not really done their job on this particular bill. Lianne Dalziel and Charles Chauvel have asked very reasonable questions. Those questions should have been answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EBut the biggest disappointment is that we have not had the opportunity to think through what a census would look like in the modern world, and to have a select committee process that would have given us the answers. It was contemptuous not to take that opportunity, and it is highly objectionable when National members stand up and say that members on this side of the House are doing the kinds of things they said we are doing. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff5740f06b548d1aedb9aef4238489b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff5740f06b548d1aedb9aef4238489b\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E If anyone was in any doubt about the impact of natural disasters on the psyche, the well-being, and the functioning of a nation, a cursory look at Hansard for this year would put a stop to it. If one was in any further doubt, one would just need to listen to members on the other side of the House and the way they have been filibustering these last 2 hours. The census of population and dwellings scheduled for 8 March 2011 was cancelled because of the 22 February 2011 earthquake. The Canterbury earthquake utterly affected the viability of the census in 2011, so the Governor-General has since revoked the formal proclamation of 8 March 2011 as the census date. The Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill responds to that situation and sets in place also the infrastructure and the administration required to run the next census, which is scheduled to take place on Tuesday, 5 March 2013. This bill amends the Statistics Act 1975 to enact the Government\u2019s decision to defer the census to 2013. Basically, the amendment in this bill removes the requirement that a census be undertaken this year. It is a mere technicality. There is no reason to drag this out any further. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u002240c97380768e458b98e6eab43325f873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c97380768e458b98e6eab43325f873\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a call on the third reading of the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Matters) Bill. This is a non-controversial bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00226758ba667c904d4cba9ec16a6333c59a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226758ba667c904d4cba9ec16a6333c59a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I will be quite brief as well on the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Matters) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225bb48ff7a654fbba73ac0d86339f1d6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Not more than 10 minutes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14f69380cda4f97bafb631f578061aa\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I cannot be more than 10 minutes. Mr Mallard is quite correct. This is actually a good bill, and it is doing something that the Opposition supports, which is moving the census to March 2013. But I have not heard a single reason from any of the National members who have stood up and hurled abuse at the Opposition why this bill needs to be passed under urgency, without reference to a select committee. Oh, there was an earthquake. So that therefore gives them the opportunity to put whatever legislation through Parliament that they want, without following the democratic process and without giving people the chance to have their say on it. I think that is absolutely contemptuous towards the people of New Zealand. There is not a single bill in this House that I have been involved with that has not been improved by going through the select committee process. Yet this Government seems to think that it knows absolutely everything, and can learn nothing from listening to the public, who might actually have a view on this, and therefore it will push this bill through Parliament under urgency, without sending it to a select committee and without giving anybody a chance to have a say on it. I think that sums up this Government. They know best; they do not need to listen to anybody else. They can do just whatever they like. They are so arrogant that they can do whatever they like and they do not have to listen to the public of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EDeferring the census until March 2013 certainly makes sense. It is a constitutional decision, because the implications of this legislation are constitutional ones. I do not believe that this Parliament, or any Parliament, should change the constitution under urgency without giving the New Zealand public a chance to have their say on it. That is effectively what this bill does. I see no reason why it should not go to a select committee for further consideration. Labour will vote against this bill not because we do not see that the bill has merit but because we think the New Zealand public should be able to have a say on it. The bill should go to a select committee for further consideration so that people can make submissions, the bill can be gone through in some detail, and expert advice can be delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere is no urgency on this matter. Maurice Williamson has had the regulatory impact statement since April, which means that if he had been an effective Minister this bill would have been before the House before now. It could have gone through the normal select committee process in that period of time if a competent Minister had been in charge of getting this legislation through the House. Maurice Williamson has not done that, so Government members are now trying to make up for their total lack of competence by pushing the bill through under urgency, and I think that is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022df28acf23cec4d30b69413a8751c4497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df28acf23cec4d30b69413a8751c4497\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d6ccc2304c4c818ab29569ef9ee3bb\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: You have got to be joking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd1b631affc41239558b90d0af2e41c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeing a level of anxiety on the part of the Acting Leader of the House and the spectators who have come in to sit behind him. Some of them are looking in a certain state of disarray, I might say. I cannot tell whether they are reaching for their Compaqs or their tweets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Opposition supports the bill but abhors the process. It is a sad day when an offer to put a bill through in much, much less time than this was turned down by the Minister in charge of the bill\u2014all for the sake of sending it to a select committee for a couple of hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e89328d2f6f42a283c383af1ef48b7c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Duties of Statutory Officers (Census and Other Remedial Provisions) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b5c2e8f263c439e931f8ebbe22869db\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1143e7cbad84b48a420aee7a7fdb9d1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264f3118fc37442b5984d6894101b7d9f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Education Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022c35f0635a32b49b99b1a8f3a4dbb730c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c35f0635a32b49b99b1a8f3a4dbb730c\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Labour has supported this bill as it has proceeded through both the first two readings and as it went through the Education and Science Committee. We had a number of very good submissions to the select committee on this bill. Many of them sought some tightening-up of some of the provisions in Part 1. I particularly refer to the Education New Zealand Trust, whose submission was presented to us by David Caygill, who came to speak on it. But in general, with some of the amendments that were made through the select committee process, we will be supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EAs I say, there are a number of issues under Part 1. A great deal of the bill in effect brings in much of the educational legislation that needs to be tidied up and, in a sense, put right. It brings it all together. But I think it is worthwhile to touch on the Education New Zealand Trust in terms of Part 1. What was curious for many of us was that the Education New Zealand Trust is a body that represents, in many ways, the international education providers. We are talking about a sizable industry of more than $2 billion here\u2014$2.1 billion. It has grown very, very rapidly. It has a number of components and aspects to it. The feeling from the Government was that rather than the Education New Zealand Trust being more of a representative body, it needed to be changed into a Crown entity. In effect, what the Government is doing in this particular case\u2014which is somewhat curious, given the trend of the Government to try to downsize\u2014is creating a Government agency or entity. Education New Zealand, as it will now be called, will be a Crown entity; it will add to the Government bureaucracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe question that came about in the select committee was whether this was a positive move, or whether it was too heavy-handed on the part of Steven Joyce, the Minister for Tertiary Education. As Mr Caygill pointed out, there was no stated need to make this change. Although the trust did not oppose the change as such, it said: \u201CEducation New Zealand Trust is reluctantly supportive of Part 21 of the Bill.\u201D It also went on to say in its submission: \u201CAt no time has the Trust been made aware by the government of any deficiency in its performance or area for improvement that would explain this proposal.\u201D To the Education New Zealand Trust it was somewhat of a mystery why this change is taking place. It is, as I say, quite a major change. It establishes a Crown entity to manage and oversee an area of work where there does not seem to be any problem. The old adage \u201CWhy fix it when it is not broken?\u201D seems to apply in this particular case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe trust went on to say in its submission that it agreed with the desirability of ensuring coordination between various activities, such as the work of the Ministry of Education, of Trade and Enterprise, and of many of the other providers. But again there is nothing, really, in this Crown entity that gives us any confidence to believe that it will be able to do the job very much better than the trust itself. The long-term risk that the trust sees in this proposal is that the new agency, \u201Cbeing subject to government direction, may fail to maintain the necessary confidence and support from the industry.\u201D I think that is a very valid concern. At the moment in some ways the industry has a stake in the trust performing its duties in the way that the industry believes that it should do. In fact, the industry may actually lose that trust and that direct ability to influence the new Crown entity as it comes into being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe other issue that was brought up\u2014and it was not really adequately answered by the Crown\u2014was the question of the enforcement aspects of this Crown entity. Will it be able to enforce better standards on the part of the many providers of international education in New Zealand? The answer is actually no. We would like to think that it would do so, but it is likely that it probably could not. Although we are broadly supportive of the shift from the trust to the Crown entity\u2014well, let us put it this way; we are not opposing it\u2014we are not convinced that the Government has put up a very good case for this entity to come into being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EOne positive thing about the move is the fact that the new Crown entity will effectively pick up, in total, the staff of the trust. Those staff will be, effectively, transferred to the new Crown entity. That will at least provide a smooth transition and a continuation of the services that the trust currently provides and that hopefully the entity will be able to take over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is quite unusual in the world, because at the moment we do not have a body controlling\u2014\u201Ccontrolling\u201D is probably the wrong word; coordinating and governing\u2014international education in New Zealand as part of its Government. We are quite unusual because we do not have that, but I am not sure whether making this move will necessarily enhance the standing of Education New Zealand, or enhance the international education market in New Zealand. It may do so, particularly with regard to, perhaps, the Asian area, which for some years now has been the growth area for international education in New Zealand. It may give some of those Governments a little more confidence that the new Crown entity is under the Government, but in terms of the entity\u2019s basic responsibilities and actions, I am not sure whether that will be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say I wanted to make those remarks in the debate on Part 1 about an area that I think is of the greatest concern. It is not something that we have gone out to oppose. I do not think that the case has been made adequately for the transition to a Crown entity; I think that the analysis was inadequate. That is not a sufficient reason for us to oppose this particular part in the legislation, and we will support it. However, I do think that we will keep a very close eye on monitoring the actions of the new Crown entity, particularly with regard to the way that it goes out, seeks, obtains, and secures the confidence of the industry\u2014the plethora of different providers that have attracted the large number of students who come into New Zealand as part of this very valuable industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00223fe5ee341e414f22b75ca7948bc57874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fe5ee341e414f22b75ca7948bc57874\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am following on from David Shearer, who obviously had an amazing contribution to make, having been part of the Education and Science Committee. Like David, I have a few concerns about this move. Education is obviously a very important export earner for New Zealand. It brings in a lot of dollars, and I think it is one of those things that flies under the radar a little bit, in the sense that not many people are aware of the good work that is done by our education sector in promoting New Zealand, in a number of ways. For example, I have heard many stories\u2014well, not many; a few stories\u2014OK, one story about people who were educated in New Zealand. They came over here, got a good education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022067d5c0257d748cc8112b6b078809245\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110816bc10ffa581ba45048816646ba10db436001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f76edac8b5074aa69ef3872f6e545b90\u0022\u003ETuesday, 16 August 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3f264548da948079983b8ce578b01e5\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 18 August 2011)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fddf877f01864f628da2ae6318425b46\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cfbee0d8e4d45a5a6651c024af47f47\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c92a28d0b0145b2a5c7e7eff5661e68\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Education Act 1989 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7c5190a5ef423289248e67a1a8f228\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7c5190a5ef423289248e67a1a8f228\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the call, Mr Chair\u2014and I am sure that members on the Government benches will be anxious to take a call on this bill, as well, and that will be good. The Education Amendment Bill (No 4) obviously makes a range of amendments to the Education Act. That is the nature of such bills; they do cover a lot of ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe particular area of concern I want to raise is about the reforms this bill makes to student services levies. There is absolutely no doubt, when we look at the growth of student services levies in institutions around the country, that this could be a matter of considerable concern. In 2010 student services levies increased by an average of 102 percent in universities, and what I think has been happening there, essentially, is that universities have been looking at the fee maxima policy\u2014which the Labour Government introduced and the National Government has carried on with\u2014and have perhaps been looking at ways they can increase their revenue. There has certainly been some concern from students about the way in which these levies have increased over a period of time. This bill allows the Minister for Tertiary Education to give directions to institutions to hold fees in a specified manner, as provided in new section 227A, inserted by clause 26. For example, directing that a separate account be used exclusively for the purpose of expenditure on student services; that adequate arrangements be established to make decisions as to the types of services that should be made available to students, the level of a student levy, the procurement of student services, and the method of authorising expenditure on student services in joint consultation with students; and that a description of the services funded out of the student levy be included in its annual report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, all of that might sound good in the sense that it can control aspects of the growth of student services levies, but it is important to see this legislation in the context of another piece of legislation that is before the House, and that is Heather Roy\u2019s Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill to make students association membership voluntary. Although a mischief may be being dealt with here in terms of the growth of the student services levies, the end result of Ms Roy\u2019s bill\u2014the shutting down, effectively, of students associations\u2014is that a lot of the services provided to students will now be channelled through the institution\u2014the university, the polytech, the w\u0101nanga, or the private training establishment\u2014and the control of what services are delivered will become very much the purview of the institution. This is the criticism we have made on this side of the House of the voluntary students association membership bill\u2014that the control of student affairs is moving from students to institutions. And, as I think I have said in debates before, in the 1990s when I was a student politician we had posters around when we were opposing Michael Laws\u2019 bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f66ff8a8d4b4d0d8a128c92b2f242e0\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d7d6d484144261b44273d635d05ad0\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We came and lobbied Tau Henare. I should tell the Committee the story of when I lobbied Tau Henare about Michael Laws\u2019 voluntary students association membership bill. I was a student politician and I dressed up in my suit and tie. I thought I should scrub up well to go and see Tau Henare when he was a New Zealand First MP. I got there. He walked in the door\u2014jandals, shorts, T-shirt. That is what Tau Henare was wearing that day when we came to see him. He was casual; very, very casual. In those days Mr Henare opposed voluntary students association membership, but things have changed. He has moved on, and he is now in favour of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, under this bill what we are going to see is that the control of what student services are allowed really does start to fall to the institutions, and the Minister will now have a role under this bill. In some senses that is good, but the problem we have is that the bill\u2014along with the voluntary students association membership bill, if that passes\u2014will see a transfer of the control of what services are provided to students, to those institutions. So what we are saying here is that it is all very well to limit the growth of the student services levies, but if more responsibilities are falling to the institutions to provide student services, that will put pressure on those institutions to be able to provide those services within the context of this. So capping the student services levies at a time when the institutions will be responsible for more things runs the risk that services for students will decline. We know that student services will decline with the voluntary students association membership bill, and we now have another bill that may have a good intent\u2014to limit the increase in student services levies\u2014but now more things will have to be dealt with by institutions and there will be a cap in place. So it is a kind of catch-22 situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt might be a laudable goal to try to cap the growth of student services levies\u2014and I know that students want to see that growth reduce and make sure it is not as big as it has been in recent years\u2014but the truth is that if the voluntary students association membership bill passes, there will be a great reduction in services available to students. Responsibility for services will fall on to the institutions, which will now be in a capped environment for the kinds of services they can provide. Also, they will be making decisions about what services are provided rather than the students for whom they work. So it is a concern to us that the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) brings this in. We do not believe that the balance is right. The easy solution would be that the voluntary students association membership bill does not pass, and then we will be in a situation where the capping of student services levies will achieve its goal without reducing the quality of services available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb2e9fb44ed5456596dd7e2834bf45a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb2e9fb44ed5456596dd7e2834bf45a3\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 1, I need to react to comments made by the member for Wellington Central, who, it seems to me, is digging himself deeper and deeper into a hole in terms of three things. One is his inability to actually address the issues in this bill. I heard that the Labour members who were speaking last night are supporting it. Secondly, he is trying to get this all tied up with the voluntary student union membership bill, where the issues, in my view, are very, very different. And, thirdly, and most significantly\u2014and where the electorate will demand a price at the election, and in Wellington Central itself\u2014is the willingness of that member to use filibuster tactics in this House to frustrate a bill in his name, brought on behalf of the Royal Society, in relation to which he was being asked to discharge his responsibilities as an electorate MP. Instead, he chose to put an ideological agenda ahead of an organisation in his electorate that required his assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EAs the chairperson of the Education and Science Committee I chaired the hearings on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, and I want to apologise to my friends in the Royal Society. I am sorry that they got caught up in this mess, but I am confident that the electorate of Wellington Central will hold that member to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI will get back to Part 1. In relation to tertiary education, this part enables the responsible Minister to issue directions on student services fees\u2014compulsory fees for non - tuition-related services. It seems to me that there is a debate that we are fringing around. It sort of does not really matter on this side of the Committee, because the Government is confident in what it is doing. It becomes a little bit tricky when Labour tries to link this to the survival of compulsory student unionism. I think the Committee has been very tolerant in letting members like Mr Robertson do that, but at the end of the day the basic question is not being asked, which is how many of these services are actually necessary for the great bulk of students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EOne of the clear messages that I felt came through during hearings on the voluntary student membership bill was that we had reached a situation where one begins to wonder whether 17, 18, or 19-year-olds who go off to university are capable of standing on their own two feet and making good decisions for themselves. I listened to the sort of stuff that Labour is putting up in this debate and in the voluntary student membership bill debate. One has to ask oneself where is the faith and confidence in the young people of New Zealand who are deemed to be intelligent enough\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e49e77414cf431dac7760d4852c1c92\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my gosh, pot calling kettle black! Oh my gosh! Who\u2019s saying 16 and 17-year-olds don\u2019t know what food to buy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e566934435054cb98d800f1bed2a4f62\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the member who is shouting at me might like to take on the demeanour of an adult rather than of a recalcitrant fourth-form girl. It seems to me that we are in danger here\u2014or at least Labour members are\u2014of trying to convince this House that there are 17, 18, and 19-year-olds who have the qualifications to attend tertiary institutions but who are not capable of making good decisions for themselves. One of the things that comes out of this legislation and the Minister\u2019s authority to be involved in the setting of service levies and that sort of thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f825591d455488996086b04cc29dc34\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Before the next member, Carmel Sepuloni, begins, I say that we are debating the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), not the voluntary student membership bill. People can make comparisons, I guess, but the debate should be on the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf5ef66475541faa71e173840ac92b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf5ef66475541faa71e173840ac92b9\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E At the beginning of my speech I do need to respond to what was said by the previous speaker, Allan Peachey. He is the chair of the Education and Science Committee, so I would expect that he would have a great knowledge of the legislation we are debating and actually address the bill thoroughly. But instead he spent the whole 5 minutes of his speech attacking my learned colleague Grant Robertson about the Royal Society bill when we are here to discuss the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). He accused him of filibustering on the Royal Society bill but took 2 minutes of his time on his speech to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6604d00aac244f2af5d60fb2699cedd\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You brought us back to the bill before that member rose to speak. I would love to hear something about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256ef810fec244c208fd185bd6424a740\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just respond to that. It is out of order to refer to a ruling by the Chair. Members need to move on. I think you have made your point. Now can we get on to the Education Amendment Bill (No 4).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233424a44a7e948c3a2908dec80cbe595\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The point that was made with regard to capping the student services levy, which is what Part 1 is about, was really in relation to the fact that institutions are struggling at this point in time. Although we support the capping of the student services levy, we know that at some point the institutions will have to find the money somewhere in order to provide the student services that students need to be able to make it through the degrees they are studying towards. That is the point we make here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMr Peachey talked about the fact that we need to have faith in 17, 18, and 19-year-olds, in terms of their ability to make decisions for themselves. Before I get more thoroughly into this bill I need to make the point that it is members on the other side of the Chamber who are saying that 16 and 17-year-olds are not capable of making decisions for themselves, hence National is proposing the introduction of a payment card so that they have restrictions around what they can buy with their independent youth benefits. So I think that before that speaker, who happens to be the chair of the Education and Science Committee, gets to his feet again, he needs to reflect on some of the other legislation and policy initiatives that his Government is putting into place, so that he is not standing up and contradicting a whole lot of proposals that his side of the Chamber is making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EMoving back to this bill, as my colleague Grant Robertson said before me, this bill does make a range of amendments. We are looking at the fact that a student services levy within institutions will be capped. We are aware that in terms of the fees students have to pay and the amount it costs them to study at a tertiary level, what is being proposed is good. Again, I just have to say that we are concerned about this measure within the context of what is being done across the tertiary sector. The student services levy, along with the money that is raised through voluntary student membership, is really important, in terms of the student services that are provided. Having worked at the university I know that it is not just about academic study and putting on classes for these students; there is a high level of support that students require, whether it be additional study support in terms of the academic services provided through student learning centres or whether it be pastoral care. We cannot say that a student has qualified for a tertiary qualification and therefore every aspect of their life is intact and they no longer need any support at all, because that is simply not the case. Any good tertiary institution wants to be able to provide that level of service to their students, because at the end of the day it is about supporting them to remain at that institution, and supporting them to achieve the academic qualifications they went there to obtain. Retention and achievement are two of the most important things at a tertiary level, along with recruitment. We do support this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe support putting a cap on the student services levies, but, as we said, we have real concerns about what this will mean with regard to student services across the board. We think this bill does make some positive changes\u2014some positive changes. However, we look at the huge levy rises last year and we see that they really were a result of the National Government\u2019s squeeze on tertiary funding. Basically, tertiary institutions had no option but to raise student levies in order to raise the revenue that they needed to provide the services that the students required. That resulted in a squeeze on their funding, and it forced institutions to lay off staff or pass the buck on to students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will not take a full second call. I hope that the Government side of the Chamber will consider this bill carefully and look at it in the context of some of the other ill-informed decisions that it is making across our tertiary sector. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022fecaedf952744a748fda3338066f0991\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fecaedf952744a748fda3338066f0991\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I start off by rebutting the speaker from the other side, Carmel Sepuloni, who was trying to draw a comparison between student unions and those people for whom education has not worked out in life. If members on the other side cannot see the difference between those people who have access and the qualifications to go to university and those for whom education has not worked out, then that probably explains Labour\u2019s failure when it was in Government. It just forked out money into tertiary education without any consideration\u2014any consideration\u2014for the quality that came out the other end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe Education Amendment Bill (No 4) is long overdue. It is necessary because of the inactivity of the previous Government and some of the conduct that we see in the education sector, especially by private training establishments. One of the very important functions of education in New Zealand, an important sector of it, is international education, which may be known as the export sector. New section 234B, inserted by clause 30, talks about the necessary information that private training establishments must provide for students. This is very important. Private training establishments\u2014PTEs\u2014provide a very important function within the tertiary education sector. However, there have been cases where we have all been embarrassed by the lack of discipline that has been applied to the processes of how student fees have been managed. This part of the bill brings the functions around student fees, how they are carried out and sorted, into sync with those of universities and suchlike. It deals with how the fees of international students in private training establishments are protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ETheir fees have to be put into a trust. What is a trust? It has to be at arm\u2019s length, separate from the private training establishment. As new section 234C(1) says, \u201C \u2018trustee\u2019 means Public trust, a trustee company under the Trustees Companies Act 1967, a chartered accountant in public practice, or a lawyer whose practising certificate allows the holding of trust funds.\u201D It becomes quite clear that a process is being put round the management of student fees. New section 234E(1) makes the comment that funds must be deposited \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D. That was an interesting aspect. The Education and Science Committee asked officials what the definition of \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D would be. Evidently, it is a legal term. We were assured of that. To some of us it appeared to be slightly loose. However, they assured us that within the legal system \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D means reasonableness\u2014I do not know; they can sort that one out. But it is there. We had an interesting little discussion with the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe Minister has a part to play in this process. He has to advertise in the Gazette how refunds of any student fees\u2014in this context, the refund entitlements of international students\u2014for courses have to be handled. This bill tidies up an issue with regard to withdrawal. New section 235A(1) says: \u201CA private training establishment must\u2014(a) allow every international student enrolled for a programme or training scheme that is of 3 months\u2019 duration or more to withdraw from it at any time within the refund period;\u201D. It talks about the refund period: the establishment must \u201Callow every international student enrolled for a programme or training scheme that is of less than 3 months\u2019 duration to withdraw from it within a period (being less than 7 days) specified by the Authority;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThis bill tidies up a lot of the rogue activities of the private training establishments. It is not onerous; it just writes out the rules. When we look at ourselves within the international educational scene, we have to be able to provide certainty and we have to be able to deliver a high standard of education, and that is what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022f395a0053ecf4cbd9a70b4ec408b731f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f395a0053ecf4cbd9a70b4ec408b731f\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on Part 1 of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). I was on the Education and Science Committee, which heard the submissions on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe debate on Part 1 so far has focused on what I think was a key part of what submitters wanted to talk to us about in the bill\u2014that is, student levies. I guess we could call this bill an omnibus bill; it deals with a range of things. The previous speaker, Colin King, certainly spoke about the private training establishment part of it. But most of the submitters wanted to talk to us about the student levies part of it, which is covered by Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThey said, with regard to the student levies part, that they all supported the changes to the Education Act 1989. Submitters came at the bill from a range of options, actually. Both the institutions themselves, and the students affected by those levies, came to make submissions. Just so that we are clear, I tell the Committee that students make a range of payments in the tertiary environment at the moment. There is the course fee, the student fee. That is obviously a compulsory fee; it is something they have to pay in order to take part in the course. But there is also a compulsory student levy, which is put on by the institutions. The purpose of that levy is not to pay for the costs of providing the education, but to provide for some additional services that the institution wishes to have in order to support students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhat started happening\u2014and this is the background as to why this bill is so necessary\u2014is that in the course of the last year student levies increased hugely, and quite suddenly, right across the country. There was an up to 600 percent increase in one instance. It was at Canterbury University that that increase occurred last year. It is interesting to note that when we first heard of this bill, of course, Canterbury University was in much better shape than it is today\u2014through actions not of its own making, of course. But imagine what the student levy discussion might look like at Canterbury University in the forthcoming financial year, and in the financial years to come. I think those reasons are exactly the reasons why we need to have transparency in the way the student levy is set; we certainly applaud that and want to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EHowever, we need to understand the root cause of what has gone on here. Before earthquakes or any of those natural disasters hit some of these institutions\u2014universities, polytechnics, and private training establishments\u2014why was it that across the board they felt the need to increase student levies to that degree, by 103 percent or 600 percent? That needs investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe institutions submitting told us that, yes, they were looking to have a more user-pays regime for students. Why is that? It is because the Government funding going into their sector has been so squeezed that they have had to look elsewhere to make up the difference\u2014it has been so squeezed. That is why tertiary institutions were bringing in a more user-pays regime, and they were using the compulsory student levy to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI am surprised that the Government is not railing and fighting against the idea that universities can even have a student levy that is compulsory, because it seems to think that that is a rather large evil. In talking about evil, I acknowledge that we cannot consider this bill, with its approach to student levies in Part 1, in isolation from its twin\u2014the twin piece of legislation coming through this House at the same time, which we know as the voluntary student membership bill. They are twins that we have to look at together, in terms of the provision of student services. There is no doubt that the evil twin\u2014the voluntary student membership bill\u2014will gut students associations in such a way that they will not be able to provide the student services they currently provide, or the student advocacy they currently provide for students. That will be a natural outcome of the evil twin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut this debate is about the good twin. This bill is the good twin. This bill aims to make sure that tertiary institutions cannot continue to increase the student levy without transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6768ecb3784dde95a814b78ca4bbda\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Are you supporting this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a79b048e634ef8b80a8c627eed7d7f\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am supporting the good twin\u2014I am supporting the good twin, I say to Mr Henare. But I am not supporting the bad twin, the evil twin\u2014the one that will mean that student services will suffer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThis bill gives the Minister the ability to actually cap the level of the student levy\u2014the compulsory student levy\u2014that tertiary institutions can and do charge, and have been charging at ever-increasing rates. It caps that, which is the right thing to do because in this environment, with the cost of living skyrocketing as it is in New Zealand, the last thing that students need to face is that ever-increasing spiral of increased levies for basic student services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut here is the rub: if the evil twin bill is passed through this Parliament, then we know that student services will suffer as a result. Who will pick up those services? The Government will not provide more funding for them, unless the Minister wants to get to his feet and give us that commitment today\u2014and I would certainly welcome that. So who will they be left to? They will be left to the tertiary institutions. Institutions will need to pick up the student services that the students associations will no longer be able to fund because of the evil twin bill. That is why we need to talk about the twin bills together, because student services are at risk here. Student services will fall down the middle. The evil twin bill will stop students associations from having the resources to provide services, and this bill\u2014the good twin bill\u2014will stop tertiary institutions from increasing levies to provide better services. The outcome will be that a whole range of student services will not be available for students, to support them through their education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat is the dilemma for Labour members. We want to support this bill, and we do, because we believe there should be transparency in the compulsory levies put together by tertiary institutions, and we believe that the levies should be capped, because we know that the increase in the user-pays regime that is going on under this Government, which is putting more and more costs on to students, is not the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThis is the first time the Government is acknowledging that, but it is not dealing with the root cause. The root cause is that tertiary institutions are scrambling to look for other sources of revenue. They are going down a user-pays regime because their funding has been so squeezed for providing the basic course materials and the programmes that students pay fees for. Students pay fees for courses and programmes, then they pay the student levy. Certainly that is what Part 1 deals with. All of the submitters said that this was the right way to go, albeit the institutions, when they came to see us, said \u201CYes, but\u2014\u201D. They said that, yes, students should have transparency over what the levy is put towards and how that is made up, and, yes, there should be the ability for the Minister to cap it. But they said that the Minister needs to be very clear that that will put tertiary institutions in a very difficult funding environment\u2014in a very, very difficult funding situation\u2014in which they will have to make decisions about cutting services. They will have to make decisions about not being able to provide what they have provided in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2a1c1e0894442c853791bafe590e9c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Righto, that\u2019s enough now. Winding down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225177d41ad1ef487ea284b46170f60434\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Henare says that is enough. Mr Henare needs to understand the position that his Government is putting tertiary institutions and students in, by passing this bill in conjunction with the other bill that it seems so intent on forcing through before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAs the deputy chair of the Education and Science Committee, I want to respond to what the chairperson of that select committee said earlier, when he roundly criticised what he called a filibuster on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. I remind that member\u2014and I am sure he knows this\u2014that that bill does not change one thing about the way the Royal Society operates today. That point needs to be made. The Royal Society is very happy to have had the amount of debate it has had on its bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2f121838ed64abbb171926dbe54c903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2f121838ed64abbb171926dbe54c903\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would take the opportunity to take a short call before Mr Robertson does, because otherwise he would not be saved from his rhetoric, and he needs to listen to this next bit because his compatriots are digging themselves a rather large hole. He might actually thank me afterwards for not allowing him to dig the same hole for himself. We will see how he goes on this, but it will save him from some embarrassment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EFirstly, I take this opportunity to thank the Committee\u2014most of the Committee, anyway\u2014for its support of this bill, because I think it is a very important bill. I would like to talk about two aspects of it if I could. One aspect in particular that has had discussion this morning is student services levies. The other aspect I will talk about is export education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EIt is important to say, after listening to the flowery rhetoric of some Opposition speakers on this bill, that they should probably go and talk to the members of their \u201Ceconomic team\u201D, because, on the one hand, they are trying to tell us they will be fiscally responsible as a party if they ever get the chance to be in Government again, but, on the other hand, these guys over here just want to spend more and more money without any reference to the facts. So let me acquaint members with a couple of facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EHere in Wellington I think we all know that every organisation that comes to Wellington comes for a reason, and they are always looking for a slightly better outcome than they have currently, and I do not think tertiary institutions are any different. Every tertiary education Minister since time immemorial has heard tertiary education institutions cry poor as to how they are in life, but when one looks at that, one has to check and ask oneself how they are going and what the reality of the situation is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThe reality of the situation is quite interesting. Three things have happened to the public tertiary institutions in this country in the last couple of years. Firstly, they have the largest number of funded places they have ever, ever had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8933e67e55a43c18c95338acc21adc6\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: And the largest number of people trying to get into them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44ce47ad20a4858ab64bb6fc0c7dea3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, next year there will be 20,000 more places than when the previous Government left office. That is 20,000 more full-time, funded places than when the previous Government left office, and in a recession. Despite the global financial crisis, this Government\u2019s commitment to tertiary education is such that we have funded 20,000 more full-time places than the previous Government had in 2008. That is point No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThe second point\u2014which is probably upsetting for a number of other Government-funded sectors of the economy\u2014is that despite the global financial crisis the funding for tuition fees has continued to increase. Last year it was up 2.2 percent. This year, for the degrees, it is up 2 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2cf19180b341e0825ac646c9f48bef\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: This is in the bill, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63b6b92fb4f4f1a879f27d847ec002e\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: This is about student services levies. So it has gone up 2 percent this year for a degree in higher education, and it went up 2.2 percent last year. It is continuing to increase despite the fact that in most other Government-funded parts of the economy, funding has been held flat because of the global financial crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003ESo what is the outcome? Interestingly, the outcome is that the institutions are the most profitable they have ever, ever been. They are the most profitable institutions we have ever had in this country, and they have the largest balance sheets they have ever had. So on one hand we have the Opposition weirdly siding with the institutions against the students, saying that the institutions should somehow get more money, and saying it is a bit sad that we have had to put this clamp on them for charging student services fees. But on the other hand they are not even bothering to look at the financial state of the institutions; they are just taking them at their word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThis is the problem with the Opposition\u2014it is always about more funding. It is always about more funding, irrespective of the facts. Opposition members just say that the Government should fund things more. Why? Because somebody asked for it. That is what got us the problem in the first place. In the tertiary education sector these student services levies are very, very important. I am sorry; the institutions cannot have it both ways. They walk in the door and say that they only ever use the levies for student services; then they turn round and say to a select committee that they actually need them because somehow the Government is diddling them on the tuition fees. By the way, they are the most profitable they have ever been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EI am siding with the students on this; unambiguously this Government is siding with the students. We are saying the institutions must justify\u2014[Interruption]. It is not just Mr Robertson\u2019s little friends. We are saying that they must justify their student services fees. Effectively, we are saying\u2014and those who support this bill are saying\u2014they must justify anything they charge compulsorily to students. That is what we are saying they must do, and that is what we are doing. That is why this is very good legislation in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EI would also like to, if I could, take the opportunity to discuss briefly the issues around export education, because that is very important, as well. I think we have a very good education system in this country. It is one of those areas we feel passionately about, so we are always challenging ourselves to do better, and I think that is very good. There is always a healthy debate. We actually have a pretty good education system, and a lot of people in the world would love to have an education system like ours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EWe have an opportunity, as a country, to help us afford more of the things we want to afford by having a strong and robust export education sector; in other words, by sharing our expertise around the world and bringing students here. It is very good for our economy and our society generally to bring some of the best and brightest from the rest of the world to New Zealand. We want countries that we want to trade with, like China, India, and the Arab States, to bring their students here, and we want to sell our services to the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003ETwo things in this bill are very, very important in helping to achieve that. Firstly, we have had a very fragmented organisational structure at the Government end of export education. We have had, effectively, three organisations supporting export education\u2014in fact, three or four\u2014which for a tiny country of just over 4 million people is overly complicating the situation. So we have had a look at that, and we have said that rather than having New Zealand Trade and Enterprise do a chunk, the Education New Zealand Trust do a chunk, and the Ministry of Education do a chunk we will put those limited resources that we have as a country together into one organisation, a new Crown agent called Education New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EI think that that will be a fantastic platform to take export education forward from here. My colleagues in Cabinet think so as well, and they are, as a result, supporting that with extra funding of $40 million\u2014$10 million a year over the next 4 years\u2014which is a massive increase on what was being spent previously. That is because we see a great opportunity for this country, and for the education sector in this country, to actually grow our revenues from export education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EAt the same time we must be careful that the \u201CWild West\u201D does not develop again. Many of us remember\u2014and some members on the other side of the Chamber have the scars\u2014what happened in the early 2000s when there was insufficient quality control on the export education sector. As a result, one of our major client countries took a pretty dim view of our system for a while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EWhat we have done about that is to take an approach in Government that is to be very strong on some of the providers that are perhaps not as good as they should be, and we have encouraged the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to take a pretty robust approach in the interests of the protection of New Zealand\u2019s reputation overall and the reputation of those providers that do a good job. We have been encouraged by the industry to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EThere have, unfortunately, been some limitations in the law\u2014some quite significant limitations. The law was written many years ago, so a number of clauses in the new legislation will help the New Zealand Qualifications Authority do its job, which is a very important job, as I say, on behalf of the country. While we are out there at the front end encouraging export education to grow, we must also have a good quality assurance regulator whose job it is to make sure that the reputation of New Zealand, and the actual education and training of students, are well protected. That is a very important part of this bill, which we should not forget this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003EI think it is a very good bill. I appreciate the work done by the Education and Science Committee, and I will talk more about that in the third reading debate. I look forward to the bill progressing through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00226086e529730d4eef91ad284adfe56177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226086e529730d4eef91ad284adfe56177\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I need to respond to the Minister in the chair, the Minister for Tertiary Education, in relation to the student levies that are being covered by the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). I note for the record, just in case the Minister has missed it, that Labour is supporting it. Labour supports this bill, and we support greater transparency and control of the levies that are being set and that students will be required to pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWe support greater transparency and accountability in the setting of student levies. I think it would be important to look at how that might work, and at the apparent inconsistency with the legislation the Government is putting in. I congratulate the Minister\u2014so that the Minister hears that directly\u2014on putting into this provision greater involvement by students in the setting of student levies, which is covered by Part 1. But, sadly, the gains that are possible there will be undermined by the loss of students associations as a result of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, which will cripple students associations and their ability to represent students and lobby institutions over fee increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIf one is looking at just the practical circumstances here, one has to ask how institutions will consult students and include them in decision-making processes on levies if there is no organisation to represent them. Will they just pick random students who happen to be walking around and say: \u201CYou! Come here. We want to talk to you about student levies.\u201D? Or perhaps they will go to the Young Nats club on campuses and say: \u201CListen, we need to talk to some students about levies. So you, you, and you\u2014you\u2019ll do the job.\u201D Where will the independent voice, the organised voice, and the democratic voice for students be, in order for them to be consulted? I would like the Minister to answer that question. I have congratulated him on ensuring that this provision provides for student consultation, but how on earth will that be done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe other inconsistency here, of course, is that the demise of students associations will mean that institutions will be expected to provide more services, not fewer. How will they do that? That will put an inconsistency in there, as well, because they will want to ensure that some of those services continue\u2014services that are actually very important to the student experience, to their well-being, and to their involvement in university. If those services are lost through the demise of students associations, will the institutions be picking them up? That will be an extra cost. Therefore, we have a bit of a circular problem here. The answer, of course, to the question of who will pay or how that will happen is that there will be no money to provide for those student support services. They will be lost, and that will diminish the tertiary experience and threaten achievement at universities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI note that the reasons for bringing in this particular part are good ones. There have been increases in fees in a way there should not have been, which has put pressure on student incomes. Certainly Labour does not support that, and we do support the greater accountability and transparency. The Minister himself has said that \u201CUnder the proposed changes \u2026 arrangements for decisions to be made jointly or in consultation with students on matters associated with student services\u201D. In relation to that specific point, I would like the Minister to tell us how that will happen when students associations go down the gurgler. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI note that the New Zealand Union of Students\u2019 Associations has welcomed these proposals. That is positive; we are all in agreement here. It agrees, in fact\u2014not surprisingly\u2014that students should have oversight of these levies, that that is the best way to ensure that services are responsive to students and that the levies are kept under control. So that is all good\u2014tick, tick, tick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EStudents already have a say at some institutions, and I say good on those institutions, where people do better than the legal minimum. The example of Victoria University is cited, where the students association works in partnership with the university to ensure that the levy is controlled and spent on services that students use and value. Well, that is good, and I congratulate Victoria University on that. But the University Students\u2019 Association then pointed out: \u201CWhile we welcome today\u2019s proposals the unfortunate irony is that the Government is in the process of severely undermining any independent student voice at institutions,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5390fa1919b429fba3d2a86369689a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5390fa1919b429fba3d2a86369689a4\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this omnibus Education Amendment Bill (No 4). Although I would be sorely tempted to talk about another piece of legislation, I am happy to talk about this bill. As the Minister for Tertiary Education said earlier, the changes to the student services fee show that the Government is on the side of students. That is clear, as the previous speaker, Carol Beaumont, said, from the comments of the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association. I quote directly from its submission: \u201CNZUSA is very supportive of the aims of improving transparency, ensuring greater involvement of students in decision making and improving the accountability of tertiary education providers to the student body.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EOne of the things that was quite apparent when we heard submissions on this particular part of the bill was the great variance between polytechnics and universities. It appears that polytechs are able to hold their fees for support services at a very low level, or actually not to charge them at all, so one thing that bothered me was the significant variation in fees. But rather than talk about something that has been covered quite well, I will focus more on export education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis Government is focused on growth, this Government is focused on jobs, and this Government is focused on reducing bureaucracy and red tape. If we look at export education, we see that it is valued at $2.1 billion. But as we all know, and as has become very evident from this bill, export education is an opportunity and a potential that is significantly untapped, so the bill provides for the rationalisation of organisations, and it provides them with a much clearer focus. When I talk to the export education providers in the Taup\u014D electorate, I find that one of the things that has frustrated them is the fact that three different organisations have been trying to promote international education overseas, and they literally trip over one another. So the creation of this new Crown agent\u2014Education New Zealand\u2014will be of significant benefit in making sure that the process of promoting our education overseas is far more streamlined and effective. The functions of the new Crown organisation Education New Zealand include promotional and marketing activities, the management of Government representation for activities in support of international education, and industry and student support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIt is quite telling that we have had very little discussion about new Part 21, which will be inserted in the Education Act 1989 by Part 1, but this part will grow our economy, and get our export education sector up and going again, whereas it has been stagnating since 2005. This Government takes exports seriously, wants to grow the sector, and is willing to invest in it. We want to get rid of the barriers that stand in the way of economic growth, whereas members opposite want to spend more money at every opportunity. They never tell us how they would fund that spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ENew Part 21 is a fantastic part of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) and it will grow our export education industry, which is currently sitting at $2.1 billion. We look forward to the fact that we can grow that opportunity and grow that potential overseas. It will benefit not only businesses in my electorate but also businesses up and down the country. It is just so fascinating that members opposite are so plugged-in they cannot handle the fact that we want to grow the economy and increase exports. They just do not want to talk about it. I am quite staggered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI am proud of our Minister. I am proud that the Minister has been listening to the sector and has been paying attention to the businesses that operate in that space. The Minister has removed some of the barriers for those businesses in a vital part of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWe know that this country does well if we bring students here to study. They spend money while they are here. They spend money in Taup\u014D, they spend money in Canterbury, they spend money up and down this country. New Part 21 in Part 1 is fantastic for the changes it makes and for the creation of Education New Zealand. It is fantastic, and that is why I am so proud to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022c399d315a76d43dab15604258e857ed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c399d315a76d43dab15604258e857ed2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I think the contribution from the member who has just taken her seat, Louise Upston, shows why this country is still in recession. While she pats herself on the back for a job well done, New Zealanders are suffering and our economy is flailing. The Government is sitting over there and in a self-congratulatory manner saying \u201Cjob well done\u201D\u2014as George W Bush said, \u201Cmission accomplished\u201D\u2014and I think the member might want to perhaps extend herself beyond her research unit notes, go and talk to some real New Zealanders, and see how they are doing, given that contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will talk about the issue of student levies; the Minister for Tertiary Education briefly touched on it in his contribution. He said they are on the side of the students. The member who has just taken her seat said: \u201Cthe Government is on the side of the students.\u201D She said the Government is great for students, and that the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association thinks it is fantastic. Well, let us look at why we need to put a cap on levies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706cd6e502dd466f882459a673bd91f0\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2998fd6ffc438e9df7916dfe32631f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what she said. Anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220214a6a9b6ae43b48bf4181f9db9ea08\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Here is the quote. I was quoting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa97b5200074769b5028893984e8c7d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it is a quote. Let us look at why we are putting a cap on levies. We are putting a cap on levies because universities have been shifting money from that fund to pay for core things like staffing, because of the funding squeeze under this National Government. I remember in the first\u2014[Interruption] The Minister in the chair, the Minister for Tertiary Education, can do little vomit gestures with his finger. He is so mature! That is what the Minister was doing. He is now trying to say he was scratching his lip, but I saw it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is, I say to the Minister, that in this Government\u2019s first Budget one of the first things it cut was the funding that universities received in order to be able to match international salaries for people whom we bring to New Zealand to add value to our tertiary education system. It was a common practice. That was one of the first things that went. That meant that if universities around New Zealand wanted to maintain their very good standing in the world, and wanted to attract these high achievers in the academic world\u2014researchers\u2014then they needed to find the funding from elsewhere. That funding and a number of other things ended up being squeezed from university budgets. We found that these student levies were being used as a de facto way of covering staffing costs\u2014covering the core things that our universities carry out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe cap on levies is not going on because this Government loves students. The cap on levies is going on because the Government is desperately trying to put its fingers in all the holes, as the dam is breaking because of a lack of funding in our universities. We have to ask what is going to give. If there is not enough money across the board, and we are now saying that universities have this pot of money, this pot of money, and this pot of money, and they can no longer transfer across, what will have to give? If the Minister restricts these student levies, what is going to give? We know what is going to give, because it is an issue that we have been debating in the House for some time\u2014that is, student services. Those are the kinds of services that students rely on, not just services that make their tertiary education experience better or more valuable, but the food banks that students associations run, the representation that students associations give, and the counselling services that students associations provide. These are the things that are going to give\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f822d738da04320ad81d90bbef1a862\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: The hardship grants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a404bb7f5c0349c48b79ba242b6d6a22\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the hardship grants that students can apply for. There was the extracurricular tutoring that went on in universities, not to mention the health centres, and all those other things as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is particularly important, because we are talking about increasing transparency in this part of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) and about students having more say. Well, that is what the Minister says\u2014that students will have more say in terms of the way this money is spent, what it is spent on, and what the level of the levy will be. Who will the Minister consult when students associations are gone? These are democratically elected associations representing students. They are the first port of call for anyone who wants to consult the student body\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022582737f673de49b0ac7b999aaf7b2f6e\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Quasi-unions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9eda7db3568429889f324fbdd1495e7\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, this is just ridiculousness. Colin King said: \u201CQuasi-unions.\u201D I respect that member, but what a ridiculous statement. Is the reason National does not like students associations that sometimes they are called student unions? That is the kind of thing I expect from Tau Henare and Paul Quinn sitting back there, but not from Colin King. That is a really disappointing statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d367674e054bc583ad0b620407c161\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is about relevancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f9a7b79d5b48c2a1466ca369d38150\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fair call\u2014relevancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323b5a03141341039ebb114074edda3d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I could not possibly speak to Paul Quinn\u2019s relevancy, Mr Chair. I was interjected on and I was responding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EStudents associations are part of providing the transparency required in this part of the bill. The Minister has talked in this part about students having a greater say in how the levies are set and what the levies are spent on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00220bce108fbc704c418bca954147dd771d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bce108fbc704c418bca954147dd771d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E For the purposes of discussing the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), and with an introductory comment that this Government is focused on access to top-quality tertiary education, I think it is appropriate to focus on new Part 20, \u201CNew Zealand Qualifications Authority\u201D. Although members on the other side are whining on about something unrelated to this legislation, this bill is very important because it is the first occasion for many, many years that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has been reviewed. Currently, under this Government, a lot of work is being undertaken, and that is very appropriate because we would expect that a qualifications authority in any sovereign State has a highly robust and reputable structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhat we inherited from the lazy Labour Government was a New Zealand Qualifications Authority with over 6,000 qualifications, and there was confusion. There were so many so-called local qualifications, which were just a code for printing more money. Effectively, if an institution wanted to deliver a qualification, and it wanted to access funding under the equivalent full-time students model, it would basically take a national qualification, tack on a number of different aspects of it that it would say were locally relevant, register it, and it would be put on to the qualifications framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EUnder new Part 20 this bill takes us through the process of refining the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the functions of the authority. The New Zealand qualifications framework, as I mentioned, is being refined, and, at last, from comments made by the Minister for Tertiary Education, we see that there are some 2,000 fewer qualifications on the qualifications framework at this time, without creating any gaps in the framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe approval process of qualifications is also under review. It is an in-depth review, one that is very, very important. It is part of the bill that probably did not attract a lot of submissions, but it is really fundamental to the future qualifications authority and its direction. It is quite an in-depth study of the rules, the fees, how research is undertaken, and the way in which the Minister interacts with the qualifications authority. Generally speaking, the accountability of the chief executive, the delegation of authorities, and the membership of Government superannuation funds are all dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe have an organisation called the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. Every sovereign State has such an authority, and it often raises the question of why we do not have an Australasian qualifications authority, because that would possibly deepen the value and the respectability of those qualifications that people go for. When a person goes into a trade, they really do expect to be able to have a robust qualification, and there have been occasions like in the situation of Master Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers where that has not always been the case. This bill is very good, and I commend it to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00225f9d4ddd4d53482ab082e2e3f9f23ef1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f9d4ddd4d53482ab082e2e3f9f23ef1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee report progress and sit again presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af52abfa406948f28660181bf8c8892f\u0022\u003EPolicing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ece5ef3b28e249948b0a64a05a2724dd\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022469b31288198443ba55fbfd2fac683d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022469b31288198443ba55fbfd2fac683d1\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. This bill amends the Policing Act 2008 to restore the legal position under the Police Act 1958 in relation to the storage of youth identifying particulars\u2014that is, fingerprints and photographs taken by the police. That legal position was not intended to be altered by the Policing Act 2008, but that, in fact, is what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhen the Policing Act 2008 was passed, it was assumed that the legal situation relating to the police\u2019s ability to retain the identifying particulars of youth was carried over from the Police Act 1958. In developing the Policing Act 2008 no policy decision was made to change this provision. However, in 2010 police became aware that the wording of section 34 of the Policing Act 2008, which deals with the storage of identifying particulars by police, was much narrower than the Police Act 1958 in respect of youth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Policing Act 2008, as it currently stands, allows police to retain youth identifying particulars only in circumstances where a conviction is entered and an order made that the young person be brought before a District Court for sentence or decision. Under the current legislation police can retain no more than about 50 sets of identifying particulars of young offenders per year. The current wording prevents police from retaining up to 1,200 sets of identifying particulars per year for youth who have a charge proved in the Youth Court and for whom an order is made by a judge. Those orders range from a discharge right through to supervision with residence. This change was an unintended consequence of drafting. If this unintended situation is not remedied, police will continue to be unable to retain the identifying particulars for these young offenders, and any future reoffending by the same people will be more difficult to detect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIdentification of young repeat offenders is a key tool to assist police to prevent future offending, to stop offending growing in severity over time, and to provide reassurance to victims. This bill seeks to rectify the situation through an amendment to the Policing Act 2008 to reflect the position provided for by the Police Act 1958 in relation to the police\u2019s ability to retain the identifying particulars of youth. As the change to the legal position relating to youth identifying particulars was unintended, police were not immediately aware of the change, and, as a consequence, continued to retain youth identifying particulars that should technically have been destroyed over a period of 2 years from the introduction of the Policing Act in October 2008. In good faith, police have now destroyed all those identifying particulars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUnder the current legislation a person could potentially challenge a conviction that was based on evidence from improperly retained fingerprints. This process in itself could be a time-consuming and costly process. Such an appeal may also lead to victims feeling re-victimised. Also, the safety of those convictions could be placed in doubt and result in potential challenges and further stress for victims. Such ongoing challenges are not in the public interest. Neither is it in the public interest to undermine confidence in the criminal justice system by failing to recognise the impact on victims if young offenders are not brought to account. In order to minimise the negative effects of potential challenges, the bill\u2019s amendments are to be retrospective to October 2008. That is also why I requested that the bill be progressed under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis Government is keen to ensure that young offenders are apprehended, face the consequences of their actions, and have interventions put in place to help stem any risk of their reoffending in the future and becoming more serious criminals. We are equally determined to ensure satisfaction for the victims of crime. This bill seeks to rectify the impact of an unintentional legislative change that occurred during the drafting of the Policing Act 2008 and to restore the ability of police to retain the identifying particulars of young offenders as originally intended. On that basis I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022d541132219464b2d9b3a35aefe61dbae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d541132219464b2d9b3a35aefe61dbae\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Opposition will be supporting the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill through all stages and I thank the Minister of Police for the information that has been provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Policing Act 2008 was a bill passed by the previous Labour Government and I was the Minister of Police at the time. It was a bill, I have to say, that followed a very long and careful consultative process. It took 2 years in the making. It was a bill to rewrite a 50-year-old Act, and over those years there had been incremental changes. The actual Act looked more like a patchwork quilt than good legislation. So over those 2 years there had been wide input from many individuals, from organisations, and from the Law Commission. We even had a public research project undertaken about this bill, and we had very good involvement from the Law Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI think one of the most important things about this bill was that we had across-this-Parliament work done on the Policing Act because it involved the New Zealand Police, which is independent of any political party. So for the Labour Government of the time it was important that we got wide buy-in to a new Policing Act, which we did. In fact, at the time I commended members of this House for the work that was done on bringing together legislation that really only had one contentious part to it, and that was whether we should allow police officers to also stand for local government. At that time we had what was called the \u201CRon Mark amendment\u201D. Ron Mark was part of our coalition at that time and he was very adamant that we should not allow police officers to stand for local government. He had seen a police officer who had been elected to a particular local authority park his police car outside the council chamber and attend council meetings throughout the day, when he should have been policing. Well, that was the only contentious part of the bill at that time. But when we have a bill that makes so many changes, it is possible that we can make mistakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis is the second amendment to this Act. The first amendment was in October 2009, when we had to validate the oaths that were taken by police officers. That was done in this House in a very cordial way and we passed that through. We are now making another amendment, and it too concerns an inadvertent mistake. It was never intended not to carry through the clause that existed within the old 1958 Act that enabled the police to hold and store identifying particulars of young people who had committed a crime, had appeared before the Youth Court, and had not been referred to the District Court for sentence but an order had been made against them under the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. There are a number of orders that could be made, and are made, under that Act, and they range from an order brought for supervision with residence to supervision with activity, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt was never intended that the police should not continue to be able to hold that information. We are not talking about young people who had not done anything; we are talking about young people who had committed a crime. The idea was to hold the information in order to help reduce reoffending. That was why the information was being held. It was not being held inappropriately. As far as I can recall, there have not been issues raised about such information being held. My understanding from the Minister is that it relates to about 1,200 youths each year. I think this Parliament ought to accept that that was an error, it was not carried over, and that we need to amend it. We also accept that it needs to be done under urgency and it needs to be retrospective. We will talk more about that when we get to the clause by clause analysis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Labour Opposition will support this bill. It could be said that we need to be much more careful when we are drafting legislation, but I have not yet found any political party in Government that has not had to amend legislation at some stage. Although we are pretty good in this place, we are not perfect. We are not perfect even when a bill goes before a select committee and we have numerous submissions. In fact, the original bill had something like five position papers written on it. Every part of it was looked at, examined, and consulted on. However, errors can still be made. The best thing we can do as a Parliament is rectify an error and move on, to allow the police to carry out their role. We will support this bill, and I hope it receives the support of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58aa4cc5ebf4a81af0badd2eaa9baa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58aa4cc5ebf4a81af0badd2eaa9baa7\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E The Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill amends the Policing Act of 2008 to restore the legal position that was held under the Police Act of 1958 in relation to the storage of fingerprints and photographs by the police. That legal position had not been intended to be altered by the Policing Act 2008, as has just been highlighted by the member across the House, Annette King. When the Policing Act 2008 was passed, it was assumed that the legal situation relating to the police\u2019s ability to retain the identifying particulars of youth had been carried over from the Police Act 1958. In the development of the Policing Act 2008, there was no policy decision to change this provision. But in October 2010 the police became aware that the wording of section 34 of the Policing Act 2008, which deals with the storage of photographs and fingerprints, was much narrower than the Police Act 1958 had been in respect of young people. This bill seeks to rectify the impact of the unintentional legislative change that occurred during the drafting of the Policing Act 2008. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2439789f13c49388b5035e12c5999b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2439789f13c49388b5035e12c5999b8\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise to support the passage of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill through all of its stages under urgency in this House. This is an appropriate use of an urgency motion, because the bill is an opportunity for the House to correct what is, indeed, an unintended consequence of an error in the original law that was passed. I believe that urgency is absolutely appropriate in these circumstances. There is no requirement for the bill to go to a select committee, and there is no requirement to call for public submissions, because in fact the bill that led to this error being made was subject to a very full and complete consultative process, as well as substantial hearings in the public arena through the select committee process. Nobody identified this problem during that process, because it was a drafting problem. I was a Minister at the time, so I was not on the select committee, but I was on the Cabinet legislation committee so maybe I missed it when it went through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291908d06f43f4a208707e9ce25b44ae6\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Unlikely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1b2cf9985ec43a98e51262cbb818fa0\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Probably unlikely. I did read the bills before I attended those meetings. But I did not pick up the particular clause, now section 34 of the Policing Act, that has led to this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think the previous speaker, Jacqui Dean, identified the answer to a question I was going to ask, and that is when did the police first realise that this was a problem. I think the member who just resumed her seat said that they became aware of the problem in October last year. If that is the case, I will be asking when we get to the Committee stage why we did not use an earlier opportunity under urgency to deal with this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad011ef769243e5b48824ca63ec6493\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce23dcfbcd24cd2b669e8d5ff6fb213\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I heard the previous speaker say it was October 2010 when they discovered there was a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52c3d7b32584997880a8ec8e5fbd51a\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It was a bit later once we had clarified it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224afad168c6b045f6bc0631b622b8d49f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Once it was clarified. What appears to have happened is that the problem was identified, and no doubt that was within police circles themselves. They would have referred it to the Crown Law Office, I would suggest, for an opinion. In fact, the regulatory impact statement refers to that but it does not say what the dates were. I think it is important, because we as a Parliament need to take note of these kinds of situations that we find ourselves in from time to time and undertake a bit of analysis of how we could improve in the future not only to mitigate against these things happening but also to ensure that the House has an early opportunity to address what is, indeed, a genuine error, as this one is. This is an important matter to bring to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe other point I wanted to make was that yesterday we had quite a significant debate about the use of urgency to pass through all stages a change to the date of the census that arose out of the timing of the Canterbury earthquake and the timing of this year\u2019s census. I felt that that bill should have gone to a select committee, with public debate. I want to differentiate this bill from that bill, for the reasons I have outlined. I think it is important that we enable legislation like this to go through all of its stages at once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAlso, as a general rule of principle one would not support legislation that had retrospective application, but, again, there are instances where retrospective application is appropriate, and this is one of those cases. The reason I am persuaded that this is the case in this instance relates to what costs the police would be put to in defending individual cases in respect of historic cases from 1 October 2008 to the date of the situation being rectified. As the Minister of Police said in her contribution, Crown Law had advised that it is open to a young person to challenge a conviction based on improperly retained fingerprint evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhat I had not appreciated until I read the regulatory impact statement was that one of the things the court considers when it is considering an appeal on these grounds is \u201Cthe nature of the impropriety, and in particular whether it was deliberate, reckless or done in bad faith. If the Judge finds that the evidence has been improperly obtained, the next step is to consider whether or not the exclusion of the evidence is proportionate to the impropriety by means of a balancing process that gives appropriate weight to the impropriety but also takes proper account of the need for an effective and credible system of justice.\u201D The statement goes on to say: \u201CIf the evidence should have been excluded the court may confirm the conviction, set the conviction aside, or amend the conviction. If the fingerprint evidence was the only evidence justifying conviction, then it may follow that the conviction will be set aside. If, however, there were other evidence justifying conviction, then the Court may, nevertheless, confirm the conviction. Each case will turn on its own facts.\u201D I think it is that last sentence that really compels us to the view that this legislation must be retrospective in application\u2014\u201CEach case will turn on its own facts.\u201D The police could be required to defend challenge after challenge after challenge, rather than relying on a precedent established by the first decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOf course, the cost to the Government, the police, and Crown Law would be considerable. One would have to actually ask whether the interests of justice were served at the same time, because sometimes when we are balancing the cost to the Crown and, in this instance, the police with the interests of justice, sometimes the cost to the Crown is the secondary issue, and the interests of justice mean that we must pay the price. In this case, I do not believe that the case has been made out for that price to be paid. I believe that retrospective legislation is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis law is backdated to the date when the police first established that this was a problem. They sought advice from the appropriate sources of advice, they then sought to bring in amending legislation, and they worked in collaboration with the Opposition to ensure its smooth passage through all stages in the House. This is a good process and one that I think shows that when Parliament can put its mind to addressing problems, then it can do a good job. This is exactly why the Standing Orders allow for urgency, and on that basis I am certainly very pleased to be part of the Labour team, which is supporting the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002224cc07a3eb4c4038b28d5d6461ea6d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224cc07a3eb4c4038b28d5d6461ea6d3f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party disagrees very strongly with the previous speakers on the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill, including Lianne Dalziel, who said this is a good process. This is just reinforcing this Parliament\u2019s bad reputation for being the fastest legislator in the West. The Green Party got hold of the bill just last night\u2014an advance copy of the bill. It had not, at that point, been tabled in Parliament; no member of the public knew anything about it\u2014its name, its content, or anything else. In fact, the public would not have had any chance at all to find out about this bill until we started debating it in this House. At the time we started debating it, the bill and the regulatory impact statement had been tabled in the House. So the public and any people who might be concerned about the legal issues involved in this legislation have been totally shut out of this process. If this bill is being rushed through in an hour or two, anyone outside this Parliament will not know anything about it, and cannot correct anything we may be doing wrong in passing this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe do not know, for example, whether the Auditor-General has done a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act audit on this particular issue. There have been submissions to the Standing Orders Committee by various institutions, including the Human Rights Commission, about the speed with which bills pass through this Parliament without sufficient time for people to make submissions. The Human Rights Commission has talked about how it is a problem when people have only 4 weeks to make a submission, and things like that. In this situation the public is totally shut out of the process, and we have concerned citizens, lawyers, etc., holding seminars. I think a seminar was held in Wellington recently on the frequency of urgency and bills being rushed through\u2014all of these problems in our Parliament\u2014and now we are telling these people that a bill can just be rushed through in a couple of hours, without anyone knowing about it, and without the parties in the House knowing anything about it in order to do any research on it. They find out about it only the night before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn terms of the regulatory impact statement, we were given a copy of the bill last night, but I could not get hold of the regulatory impact statement because it was not live on the website. I have seen it only now, after discussion on the bill has begun. I do not know anything about the Attorney-General\u2019s report, if any. There has been discussion on how we made a mistake in the Policing Act 2008. Well, what better way to make another mistake than to rush a bill through in a couple of hours without any real consideration by this Parliament, let alone by a select committee, and let alone allowing submissions to a select committee. It is just totally\u2014well, I was going to say unethical; I think it is unethical to proceed in this manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem? There are two levels. One level is whether we have made a mistake, and whether people who do not have a conviction through the Youth Court but are discharged, and things like that, should not have their identifying details kept by the police. There is an argument that even though their action has been defined as a mistake, that situation of their details being kept could continue. Basically, we do not want to label young kids with a record\u2014they might be targeted, etc. So there is a substantive debate involved here, as well as a technical debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut even if we accept the Government\u2019s argument and Labour\u2019s argument that a mistake was made and that it needs to be corrected, why does it need to be corrected in this manner? Will civilisation in New Zealand collapse if there are one or two appeals as a result of the alleged mistake made here? Do members think a whole lot of lawyers will be running around? Most people who go through the Youth Court want to get it over with and put it behind them. Will they suddenly engage a lawyer, and will the lawyer make an appeal, and will they have their conviction scrubbed on the basis of their information being illegally held by the police for a period? I cannot see it happening. Even if there were one or two cases\u2014and I cannot see, really, that there would be more than one or two\u2014that is not justification for rushing this bill through Parliament as it is, or for having a whole retrospective process. Retrospectivity is very bad, and people will rightly criticise us for that. Sure, this Parliament can make very serious errors that have gigantic consequences involving billions of dollars and cause all sorts of heartache for people. This is not one of those errors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ELet us look at the statistics provided. I rushed through a bit of a reading of the regulatory impact statement just in the few minutes I had before speaking on this bill and after the regulatory impact statement was made available. It says that 775 cases per year have their identifying details matched with a subsequent crime scene, and that some of these cases might have been based purely on a link between the identifying particulars evidence from the previous event to this event\u2014some of these cases. But nobody really knows how many appeals would be made on that basis. As the previous speaker, Lianne Dalziel, said, even if the identity information from the previous event were taken into account by the judge, which would be against the law in terms of the law as it has been for the last couple of years, that does not mean that the conviction would be deemed to be invalid, if there were, as there is in most cases, other evidence for the commission of that particular offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is all a very murky area. In fact, it is one that should be looked at by the select committee. What is wrong with a select committee actually getting into this sort of thing? Then we find out that the police knew about this issue in October 2010. Jacqui Dean, the National speaker, disclosed that. If it is believed that a mistake was made in the previous 2008 legislation, how come we did not go through a considered process, with the parties in this Parliament informed, and did not go through a proper select committee process to correct this error? It is just not good enough. The regulatory impact statement states that if just 20 percent of these cases were appealed, it would be $20,000 per case, or $6.2 million, but I cannot see that 20 percent of the cases would be appealed anyhow. But what is the price of justice? What is the price of this Parliament conducting the proper procedure of a bill through the House, including having a select committee hearing? This is not a case where we need to violate that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe substantive issue is very much debatable. The Green Party would like to get a bit of legal advice on this. We are not all expert lawyers who can suddenly decipher the 2008 Act and this amendment and work out exactly whether it is right. We cannot do that in the half an hour that we have been allowed in this Parliament, and from hearing bits of information from other speakers. We require the assistance of research staff, the Parliamentary Library, informed public lawyers, debate with other parties in this House, a proper select committee process\u2014all of those things, which are an essential part of our democracy, have been violated. We used the example of a similar event that was very distressing to the Green Party a couple of years back. A bill on extended parole was introduced into Parliament. We knew about the bill only at the time when it was introduced during a period of urgency, moved by the National Government. It was deemed to be a technical bill. Then we found that there was a very critical Attorney-General\u2019s report on that very same bill. The Green Party struggled to analyse it. We voted against it\u2014the other parties did not\u2014but it was a big abuse of process for that to happen. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00225924ab244fb9496e954d71463dd48e41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225924ab244fb9496e954d71463dd48e41\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. The ACT Party is supporting this bill. Although I frequently agree with the principled points that the previous Green speaker, Keith Locke, makes about urgency and parliamentary process, we do not believe, in this particular case, that there is any sinister intent here at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that the Policing Act 2008 contained a drafting error that removed the police\u2019s ability to retain fingerprints and photographs or to identify particulars of youth, as they previously could under the Police Act 1958. Prior to that error, youth identifying particulars could be stored for young people where a Youth Court made an order under section 283(a) to (n) of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. The error has meant that youth identifying particulars can be kept for young people only when an order is made under section 283(o) of the Act. It was certainly intended that the provisions for retaining youth identifying particulars in the Police Act 1958 be carried over into the Policing Act 2008. The bill that we have before us today in the House merely seeks to reinstate those provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI recall when the Policing Act, under the stewardship of the Hon Annette King, was being moved through and the preparatory work was being done. I would have to say that the then Minister of Police consulted very widely. I remember several occasions when she made her officials available to Opposition MPs such as me, and a number of issues were discussed. I think it was a genuine oversight in the drafting of the legislation, although that is not to say that we should not be more careful that everything is absolutely right. The Hon Annette King has, in fact, made that point herself in the House this morning. So there is a degree of regulatory responsibility we should be very cognisant of, but it is totally unacceptable that we should have the police acting unlawfully. This bill is very much needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EGiven that the intent was always that this provision would be in the Police Act 2008, I would on this rare occasion say that urgency is being absolutely appropriately used. It is important that this error be rectified as quickly as is possible. We have heard from other speakers that the police have collected youth identifying particulars for around 2 years unlawfully, as they were unaware that there had been this legal change. This situation needs to be rectified very quickly, as I said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis bill will not extend\u2014and this point is very important\u2014the police\u2019s ability to collect or retain youth identifying particulars beyond what the 1958 Act intended. So in essence there is no change at all in the intent of collection of youth identifying particulars. It is merely rectifying the legislation and putting in place the provisions that were intended and should be there quite rightly. The ACT Party will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00226a7b81a060254b2a9c4d951f67c11e4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a7b81a060254b2a9c4d951f67c11e4d\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Ata m\u0101rie. The bill we are now debating was introduced in the urgency motion described only as a Government bill to be introduced and passed. Even in the internal email circulating about this bill, it was referred to as the \u201CPolicing Amendment Bill\u201D. In fact, until 9.30 a.m. this morning I did not think it was even going to be debated today. One has to wonder why the intrigue. What was so contentious and so sensitive about this bill that we dared not speak its name? That name is the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAs a matter of principle I try to act in a way that is driven by trusting in the best of people. But here we are on a quiet Thursday morning in Wellington, conscious of two very significant events occurring in other parts of the land. In Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia at T\u016Brangawaewae Marae, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi from right across Aotearoa are now gathering to remember Ng\u0101 Kawe Mate o te Motu. This is one of the most significant components of the koroneihana, where the people gather from the four winds to pay tribute and remembrance to all those who have passed on since the last coronation. The people come in their hundreds. The widows and children are welcomed on to the veranda of M\u0101hinarangi, and the k\u014Drero begins. This year we are all aware of the significance of so many losses right throughout the land that we grieve collectively. Moe m\u0101i r\u0101 e ng\u0101 huhua kua ngaro ki te p\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E[Slumber there the many lost to the void.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, whether in Auckland or in our homes, by virtue of coverage from M\u0101ori Television, the nation will shortly be stopping in our tracks to pay tribute to our former Governor-General and Archbishop of Aotearoa, the Rt Rev. Sir Paul Reeves. It is a big day for Aotearoa. I return to a quiet Thursday in Wellington where with little fanfare or fuss, while the nation is otherwise distracted, legislation is being introduced under urgency and under plain cover to empower the police with the ability to store fingerprints and photographs of arguably our most vulnerable citizens, our rangatahi. Is this conspiracy theory? Time will tell, but at the very least I hope the Minister of Police can explain why even the name of the bill was not published until this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe key phrase omitted from the public record until 10 a.m. today was \u201Cstorage of youth identifying particulars\u201D\u2014in other words, the storage of things that can be used to identify youth. Currently, under the Policing Act 2008, police can store youth identifying particulars like photographs and fingerprints only following a conviction. This bill amends the Policing Act 2008 to now include a wide range of categories for youth for which an order in the Youth Court other than conviction is made. Examples of orders for which the bill will allow police to keep youths\u2019 fingerprints and photographs include orders discharging a young person without further order or penalty; admonishing the young person; fines; ordering the youth to come before the court for further action at a later date; paying money towards the cost of prosecution; repairing damaged property or any restitution or forfeiture of property; driving disqualification orders; or an order to attend programmes or courses on drug or alcohol abuse, parenting, etc., supervision, or community work. One might well ask what is not being included in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of this bill, if a rangatahi goes through the Youth Court and gets one of those orders against them, the police will be allowed to keep their fingerprints and photographs. Currently, that is not the case. So is there cause for concern? Presumably, if the police are holding on to the fingerprints and photographs, it will make matching up future crimes easier. One could argue that if a person commits a crime, they need to do the time. It is important to note that this bill deals with retaining fingerprints and photographs, not obtaining them. The assumption is that the fingerprints and photographs have been obtained legally. This bill deals with what happens after they have been obtained. For our people, when they read this speech online tonight and they see orders such as \u201Cadmonishing the young person\u201D or \u201Cordering the youth to come before the court for further action at a later date\u201D, their antennae will be raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn preparing for this bill I came across an article published in 2007 in the police bulletin TenOne. It featured a police practice note that encouraged members of the New Zealand Police to promote the fact that it is in the best interests of children and young persons to voluntarily agree to be fingerprinted. To be fair, the practice note made it clear that children under the age of 10 years should be fingerprinted only for the purpose of eliminating them from a police inquiry, and that children aged 10 to 13 years cannot be fingerprinted without written approval from the Youth Aid section of the police. But the note also described the collection of fingerprints as being a crucial part of policing in the community. \u201CCrucial\u201D is a big word. There is not a lot of option built around that word. It means that collection of fingerprints is going to be, and will remain, a priority in the police officer tool kit. So although this bill is focused on storage and retention rather than on obtaining the fingerprints and photographs in the first place, it is still part of a bigger picture in which the material relating to young people is being obtained and stored by our authorities in an attempt to establish serial profiling of youth offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThat brings us to a much bigger discussion about racial or ethnic profiling and the connection to human rights\u2014that is, the fundamental rights relating to the protection of personal data and non-discrimination. Those are areas I will focus on in later readings of this legislation. The recognition of discriminatory ethnic profiling practices has taken on a new light in comparable jurisdictions around the world, in the context of recent policy changes relating to counter-terrorism, law enforcement, immigration, customs, and border control. Discriminatory ethnic profiling describes the practice of basing law enforcement decisions solely or mainly on an individual\u2019s race, ethnicity, or religion. For many of our community, it is an issue they have unfortunately associated with too many policing decisions in relation to apprehension of our young people. It must be an issue that we give serious consideration to in this debate. The Minister will be well aware of the robust body of evidence related to police bias and over-scrutiny of M\u0101ori, as is best articulated in the series of research reports around police responsiveness to M\u0101ori, and M\u0101ori responsiveness to police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill introduces a huge raft of issues for rangatahi and for the M\u0101ori population as a whole. The M\u0101ori Party will be opposing it at every stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef393302808417c9394aae62dab0a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef393302808417c9394aae62dab0a2a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise in support of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. We have heard quite a revelation in Parliament today on a number of fronts. One that has come as a surprise to me, and will be no surprise to Assistant Speaker Ross Robertson as a reasonably long-serving member of the House, is that Parliament can make a mistake, and individual MPs can make mistakes, as can individual Ministers. I thank the Hon Annette King for the genuine way she presented that to Parliament. When I first arrived here 13 years ago, the thing that staggered me the most\u2014and this is not a partisan comment in any way\u2014was the huge number of long-serving members of Parliament on both sides of the House who had never made a mistake\u2014ever. Not once, not ever. No mistakes had ever been made. So for a senior member of the House to rise and acknowledge that a mistake has been made is quite a step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second revelation that I heard today, which surprised me equally as much, was the fact that the Green Party members are not experts on everything. That has come as a huge surprise to me, because for the 13 years that I have been in Parliament, they have been experts on everything and they are across all the detail, particularly around agricultural emissions and other such things. They are experts and there is no question about it. To learn today that they are not experts on everything is quite a revelation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI do not buy into the conspiracy theory that has been espoused by one or two speakers. I can see there has been a genuine mistake, and this is the response to that. I think there will be pretty much widespread support across the House for these amendments, and I look forward to the passage of them through Parliament. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002271fd68f37eac4b60a63241968e3b50ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271fd68f37eac4b60a63241968e3b50ba\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I find myself in the very uncomfortable position of rising to defend Judith Collins. I feel unclean. I support the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I have now had the opportunity to read it. Thanks to the waffle coming from certain other members in the House, I have had the opportunity to sit down and go through it. I do believe this is a case where urgency is warranted. I am very critical of the Government\u2019s overuse of urgency, and I think a lot of cases where the Government has pushed bills through all stages under urgency have been totally unnecessary. But in this case, I think there is actually a legitimate reason to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe want to be really clear about what we are doing here. We are fixing a mistake by passing the bill under urgency through all of its stages, and retaining the status quo. We are not actually changing anything; we are retaining the status quo. The change was made by mistake, and we are fixing the mistake. Parliament did not get all of the advice on the pros and cons of making the mistake in the first place. We are fixing the mistake and retaining the status quo. If members have a legitimate concern about the status quo, there are other avenues to debate that. There are other ways they can raise those concerns, but actually retaining the status quo is the responsible position for Parliament to take in this instance, because this change was never intended to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe question is, of course, why we should fix the mistake urgently. The reason for urgency, and the reason for doing it all at once and without a huge amount of publicity and notice prior, is that we do not want to see a whole lot of young offenders who have been convicted getting off their convictions because the information the police held that allowed them to identify the offenders in the first place was something that technically, under this mistake in the law, they were not allowed to hold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will talk particularly about what this might mean in the context of something that I hope people will be able to understand. In doing so, I hope that members will acknowledge that I have had only half an hour to look at the bill and the notes. If I make a mistake, the Minister of Police can correct me in her next speech. We have a problem with young offenders in Upper Hutt etching shop windows. They have caused thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars worth of damage etching these shop windows on Main Street in Upper Hutt. As I read it, if the police identified those young people, and they had previously been found guilty of something by the Youth Court\u2014anything other than that last provision, section 283(o), I think\u2014and they had not been sent to the District Court for sentencing because the Youth Court had dealt with it, the police would then no longer be able to hold the photographs and fingerprints that they would have otherwise held. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf those young people then reoffended and were caught reoffending because they left fingerprints when etching windows on Main Street in Upper Hutt, the police had used those fingerprints to identify them, and they were then convicted, under this law that is technically open to appeal. I am looking at the Minister, and I hope that she will correct me if I am wrong. But technically that conviction could be appealed, and those young people, having done thousands of dollars worth of damage, could be let off. Everyone who had been the victim of thousands of dollars worth of damage to their shop front windows would be outraged at the thought that the offenders could get off on a technicality because of a mistake that this Parliament made that was totally inadvertent, totally unknown, and could not have been foreseen. I think we are doing the responsible thing, which is making sure that those convictions are allowed to stand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt is also important to remember why we send young people to the Youth Court. The Youth Court was established to protect young people so that they do not have to go through the District Court process, except if they come under a very limited range of circumstances. This mistake has effectively diminished the powers of the Youth Court in a way that was never intended. I am a defender of the Youth Court. I think it is important that we have a Youth Court and that we do not put young and vulnerable kids in the District Court system unnecessarily. In having a Youth Court, we have to make sure that the powers of the Youth Court are protected. This inadvertent mistake has severely diminished the powers of the Youth Court in a way that I am sure Parliament never intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn supporting this legislation we are moving back to the status quo. That does not mean that some of the concerns raised by Keith Locke and Rahui Katene are not worthy of debate; I am sure that they are. But in retaining the status quo we are deferring those concerns for another day, and I hope there will be another opportunity for them to put forward their arguments on those issues in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI turn to the provisions of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, under which the Youth Court would deal with some of these young offenders. The Youth Court could be imposing a fine, for example, that would otherwise be imposed by the District Court. The outcome is effectively the same as it would have been in the District Court, but the decision is being made by the Youth Court instead. The police technically, therefore, under this mistake that has been made, would have to destroy all of the fingerprints and photographs that they hold of those young people, potentially preventing the police from identifying reoffending by those young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt could potentially prevent the police from doing the good work that they do in preventing youth reoffending. I think that is ultimately where we have to get to. We have to say that we do not want young people to keep reoffending and to end up in the District Court system when they are older. We want to give the Youth Court and the police the ability to deal with these young offenders, straighten them out, and get them back on the straight and narrow so that they are not getting into trouble any longer. I am concerned that this inadvertent mistake weakens the police\u2019s ability to do that, and that is one of the reasons why Labour will be supporting the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Youth Court could impose a fine. The Youth Court could also make an order for the young person\u2014or, in the case of a young person who is under the age of 16 years, for any parent or guardian of the young person\u2014to pay a sum towards the cost of the prosecution. Under the mistake that has been made, that would also result in all of the fingerprints and photographs of the offender being destroyed. The Youth Court could order the young person to pay a sum that it thinks fit, by way of reparation, to the person who had suffered emotional harm, loss, or damage to their property. The Youth Court has the opportunity to say that if a young person has done something wrong, they can pay reparation to the victim, or their guardian can pay reparation to the victim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBasically, the young person has been found guilty; they have committed the offence. The Youth Court has heard the evidence and determined that the young person has committed the offence. In a District Court, were an adult being convicted, there would be no issue. The police would be able to retain their photographs and fingerprints. But because it is a young person who is being dealt with in a separate court that is set up to protect them, we give the police a lesser ability to retain the evidence that previously they had been able to retain. That just does not seem right. One of the most important things about the Youth Court is that we set it up to protect young people and we should not diminish its powers, because that undermines the legitimacy of the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOverall, as we go through the debate, I will be interested to hear further argument. But it seems to me that we are correcting an anomaly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will respond briefly to the comments made by Shane Ardern, and reassure him that any evidence the police collected when he drove his tractor up the front steps of Parliament would not be covered by this legislation. He has long since ceased to be deemed a young person. So he is fine. He does not need to worry about this bill at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1c7c23a32e4de396699a3d7b1fd22c\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s childish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c24c2f06e9403e88ffde30d3a8a97a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is childish, but technically under the law he has nothing to worry about. All of the evidence that the police collected when they were investigating that matter will still be able to be kept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is supporting this legislation because we think legitimacy is urgent in this case, and it does retain the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022fed7529c03ea46099957ccde6388acb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fed7529c03ea46099957ccde6388acb5\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Ahn nyung ha se yo, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. It is a pleasure to rise to speak on the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. Before I begin, I say to the speaker who has just resumed his seat, Chris Hipkins, that he should agree with the Minister of Police more often because \u201Cscruffy\u201D does suit him; \u201Cdirty\u201D does suit him. It is a good look. Agreeing with the Minister of Police, who does a fantastic job, does suit that young man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis Government is keen to ensure that young offenders are apprehended, face the consequences of their actions, and have the interventions put in place to help them stem any risk of their reoffending and becoming more serious criminals in the future. Obviously we are equally determined to make sure that the victims of crimes are protected. In relation to this unintended situation, as the previous Minister of Police, Annette King, has admitted, it was the previous Parliament that passed the Policing Act in 2008, without the intention of giving the police fewer powers. If the bill is not passed today, the unintended situation means that the police would not be able to retain the identifying particulars of these young offenders. That would mean that the police had fewer powers, and that is not what we want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIdentification of young repeat offenders is a key tool in assisting the police to do their job of preventing future repeat offending by these young people. We need to make sure that the young people do not continue to reoffend. When the Policing Act 2008 was passed, as I said earlier, and as other speakers have said, the legal situation relating to the ability of the police to retain identifying particulars of youth was carried over from the Policing Act of 1958. It was not removed on purpose; it was done totally unintentionally. Therefore, I think we are all in agreement in this House today\u2014except for some people who believe that this is a conspiracy; I do not agree that there is a conspiracy\u2014I support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226c1b16b7416148d19840d11484a44b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c1b16b7416148d19840d11484a44b2a\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, malo e lelei, kia orana. The tone of this debate has been quite good so far, and I refer to what Shane Ardern said earlier about the fact that mistakes are made by Ministers. I think within what was achieved though, we do need to remember that what Annette King did during her time as Minister of Police, in terms of a complete overhaul of the policing legislation, was a huge achievement. Unfortunately, this is one mistake that has been pointed out, but the usage of urgency to correct it is the right usage of urgency, so we are now discussing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe tone of speeches, until the beginning of Melissa Lee\u2019s contribution, has been good, but I have to point out that her comments about my friend and colleague Chris Hipkins being scruffy and dirty are unfair. He is not scruffy and dirty at all. We do wonder what happened to the Melissa Lee who wanted to build motorways to get rid of all crime, and stop South Aucklanders going to the rest of Auckland to commit crime. What happened to that big plan and strategy? We are wondering where that has gone. But that is beside the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI turn to the bill. A mistake was made in the Policing Act 2008, and it is good that we are seeing urgency being used for the right purpose today, so that that mistake can be corrected. We have before us the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. This bill amends the Policing Act 2008 to restore the legal position under the Police Act 1958 in relation to the storage of youth indentifying particulars, fingerprints, and photographs. As Annette, Shane Ardern, and other members who have spoken on this piece of legislation have said, it was an inadvertent mistake that is now being corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EUnder the 2008 Act the police can store youth identifying particulars only following a conviction. This means that if the identifying particulars of a youth are obtained and the outcome of the case is that an order is not made under section 283(o) of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act\u2014relating to the youth being brought before the District Court for sentence or decision\u2014then the identifying particulars cannot be stored. This legal position was not intended to be altered by the 2008 Act. There was no intention to alter that at all, and, as my colleague Chris Hipkins said, basically this bill returns us to the status quo. There was no intention to change it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere needs to be greater scrutiny of complex legislation to minimise loopholes, and greater scrutiny of the use of urgency to ensure that valuable parliamentary time is managed effectively. So there does need to be a greater level of scrutiny of complex legislation. We do need to keep in mind that that was very complex legislation, so in some ways I think the House understands that we do need to be a little bit forgiving because of the complex nature of the legislation we are talking about and the fact that a mistake has been made\u2014but it could have easily been made. However, as we go into the future, a higher level of scrutiny needs to occur to try to avoid that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhen the Policing Act 2008 came into force a number of changes were made, including to the way in which constables\u2019 oaths were administered. However, even after the changes oaths were still being administered in the same way as under the 1958 Act. This required an amendment to the Act to validate the oaths that continued from October 2009. So since this very complex legislation was brought in, in 2008, I think this amendment bill will be only the second correction that has been made, and, hopefully, this is the only other anomaly we find in the Policing Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn October of last year Parliament had to rectify legislation because an amendment to the Summary Proceedings Act that came into force in June 2008 had excluded some minor property offences in the Crimes Act from schedule 1 of the Summary Proceedings Act. From Hansard, with regard to legislative mistakes, Charles Chauvel said: \u201Cwe need to look at why it happened and how we can do our best, I think through the safeguards we have in the form of the officials and the select committee procedure, and through our decisions as parties to vote in particular ways on particular legislation, to safeguard against this sort of mistake being repeated too often,\u201D. The reality is that we are not perfect here and mistakes will occur. The point that Charles was trying to make\u2014and I think we would all agree with\u2014is that the fewer mistakes that can be made, the better. So whatever levels of scrutiny we need to put in place to ensure they do not occur, the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAccording to the explanatory note of the bill, 1,200 youths have an outcome under section 283 of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989, and the related identifying particulars cannot be stored due to the unintended mistake in the 2008 Act. The storage of youth identifying particulars is vital for the detection of youth offenders who go on to reoffend, and it is important that we have the correct mechanisms to prevent young offenders from progressing to become adult criminals. That is the point of taking this bill through under urgency at the moment. What we do not want is for young people who have been convicted to get off charges because their information was stored in a way that could be deemed illegal because of the anomaly that exists within the legislation currently, and that is what this legislation is seeking to rectify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis necessary rectification will be vital to solving crimes. Hence, we on this side of the House are supporting the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill, which has been put forward under urgency. We were slightly surprised that it was so secretive in terms of urgency and in terms of us not being aware until\u2014how long was it until we found out that this bill was being brought in? [Interruption] Oh, OK. So it was at the last minute that we got this bill put before us, but that is OK; we support it. Basically, this bill amends the Policing Act 2008 to restore the legal position under the Police Act 1958 in relation to the storage of youth identifying particulars. We do need to make sure that if our young people are convicted, they do not get off on some sort of technicality, and this bill seeks to ensure that that does not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to, again, thank Annette King in her role as Minister of Police in the previous Labour Government. Great work was done with the legislation. We know that there is other legislation in this country that could do with an overhaul, as well. There is legislation that has been added to time and time again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05cfa8100d2423cbce49bb1679160b8\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: The Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c2598283804016a0a8c4a1d035263c\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act and other pieces of legislation have constantly been added to, and the overall legislation is not very coherent. That was what Annette, as the Minister of Police, sought to address when the Labour Government dealt with this. What we need to do is look at other legislation that may need similar treatment, and we know full well that even if that is done, there is still the possibility that mistakes are made, as the bill before us today points out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe have been concerned about the overuse of urgency with regard to some of the things the Government has been trying to push through, but we think that this particular case is a good use of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBefore I finish I must tell members that one of my local principals pointed out that he found it really interesting that the Government would use urgency for national standards when there was no evidence to support them and they were contested hotly by those in the education sector, but that it would say that child abuse in this country requires urgent attention, yet it has not pushed through any legislation under urgency to address that issue. One bill that I constantly bring up that needs to be addressed urgently but has not been\u2014it should be one of the measures that goes through under urgency\u2014is the Domestic Violence Reform Bill, which continues to languish at the bottom of the Order Paper. The next time\u2014and I am sure there will be a next time\u2014the National Government decides to put the House into urgency, I plead with it to consider bringing the Domestic Violence Reform Bill through the urgency process. It was consulted on widely across the sector. It continues to be pushed down the Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8b467e6066b44658c30e113bcf87b4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8b467e6066b44658c30e113bcf87b4b\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just for future reference, the member must use a title or a full name when referring to members of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u002231a430591cf2451095fef8816f96250d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a430591cf2451095fef8816f96250d\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and take a brief call on the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. This is an enjoyable, collegial debate, and as I look across the House I see that members opposite all seem to be freshly scrubbed, despite the comment made by a previous speaker, Chris Hipkins, as to his own feeling of lack of cleanliness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ae24a101534aab9e18d7ba785bb54d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a good idea to slag the Opposition off when we\u2019re supporting you, you know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b37139368047889c55e11484eac717\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all; I was saying how well scrubbed the Opposition is looking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe speaker did make a good point\u2014in fact a number of good points\u2014and that was that this bill will not extend any powers of the police, despite the concerns expressed by a previous speaker to my right. It will not extend any police powers at all; it will just retain the status quo. Parliament is acknowledging that we made an error in the previous Parliament. The legislation was made by that Parliament, and it had an unintended consequence, which was not picked up at the time. The reason for this amendment bill is to remove that unintended consequence, which would allow guilty youths, potentially guilty parties, to escape consequences of their acts and win an appeal on a technicality. We will have the opportunity to debate this bill further during the course of its progress through the House, and at this point in time I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022882468ca58ca4e09b969fb6a63d5e57f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acf52bbe547343e2b699b873e29ca4c1\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b67c07575b144ee4a573027152e15e35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b67c07575b144ee4a573027152e15e35\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to take the opportunity to thank Labour, ACT, United Future, and Progressive for their support for this legislation. I will deal with a couple of issues that have been raised in the first reading debate. The first was the issue that there is a conspiracy. This issue was raised by the member from the M\u0101ori Party Rahui Katene. I have to say that I am particularly concerned by that comment, because it sounded as though the M\u0101ori Party had not been given a copy of the bill until yesterday evening. Actually, it had a copy of the bill 10 days ago, as one would expect from a confidence and supply partner, so I have to say I am a bit disappointed by that comment. Anyone who has any dealings with me understands that I am not someone who indulges in conspiracies; I do things pretty straightforwardly. So I have to say that I am very disappointed by that sort of implication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAn issue was raised by the Green Party member Keith Locke about whether the bill should go to a select committee. I acknowledge that that was his concern. This matter did actually go to a select committee over 3 years ago, in 2008, when, as the Hon Annette King has related, the original bill went through a very long process of 2 years in an attempt to get it right. Yet there were still unintended consequences. I do not cast any aspersions on people, because when we have long processes like this and very complicated legislation with multiple rights that we are trying to connect to other Acts that have been around for a long time, it is very important to understand that occasionally something will not work right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMr Keith Locke has asked for some information as to, essentially, what went wrong. I am happy to provide that information to the House. The 1958 Act essentially said that if a person has had particulars\u2014fingerprints and photographs\u2014taken and that person has been acquitted, so in other words found not guilty, then those particulars must be destroyed. The 2008 Act turned it right round and said that the police could not retain the particulars\u2014the photographs or fingerprints\u2014unless the person had been convicted. And there were a couple of other exceptions, such as with diversion and section 102.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBasically, the 2008 Act said that the person had to be convicted. This became a problem for youth in terms of the Youth Court, which was set up\u2014as has been rightly noted\u2014in many ways to protect youth from themselves and to try to deal with their offending. It was set up for youth not to hide from their offending but to deal with it in a sensible way at a time when an intervention can make the most difference to their lives and also to the lives of potential victims. Essentially, most of the interventions, as they are mostly known in the Youth Court, are not considered to be convictions, even though, in many cases, the youth has said: \u201CYes, I did the crime. Yes, this is what I expect to happen.\u201D There will have been a family group conference and interventions made, so the only convictions, really, that would be covered by the Act would be those where the youth has been sent by the Youth Court through to the District Court for sentencing. These would be very serious offences, such as rape, murder, and manslaughter\u2014very serious offences. In other words, all of these other examples of what we normally loosely call convictions for things like burglaries would not be counted as convictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI do not think it is in the best interest of young people who have offended to ignore the fact that they have committed burglaries and that they are clearly in need of some pretty serious intervention in order to save them from a life of crime, and to say that it is all a conspiracy and that the police are being mean. Well, the police are not being mean; they are trying to save these young people from themselves and, in many cases, from a lifetime of crime. One of the things we know is that the younger somebody comes into the justice system, particularly into the prison system\u2014an 18-year-old, for instance\u2014the more likely they are to stay there for most of their lives. That is something we are trying to avoid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI think that all parties in this House agree with the fact that we are trying to deal with these young offenders\u2014these 14 or 15-year-olds, in many cases\u2014who can sometimes cause quite a lot of harm and can cause victims to feel re-victimised if these matters are not dealt with, which can ruin their lives. I do not think it is being smart, in terms of legislation, to ignore that situation and to say that it is a case of the police being mean and that we want to go around and help our young people against the police. The police are not there to be mean to young people; they are there to try to prevent crime and to hold offenders to account. We do not help young people by not holding them to account when they create victims and when they offend against the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI say to the other members of the House who are supporting this bill that their support of this bill will help the police to do their jobs better, in just the same way as was intended in 1958 and in the same way as the House intended in 2008. The House did not intend to change the law in relation to obtaining photographs and fingerprints of young people who have committed a crime and been dealt with in the Youth Court. The House did not intend that to happen. It was an inadvertent drafting error, and the process had gone on for over 2 years. So I say to members who are suddenly saying today that we need longer processes that there is an example of a long process that did not work quite the way it was intended, although most of the Act has. I think it is a good Act, and we on this side of the House were very pleased to be able to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn essence, this bill is about restoring what everybody else would have thought was the status quo, and about helping the police in their constant fight to prevent crime, to hold offenders to account, and to protect the rights of victims. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022b84791ecb3e7443fa2cf61b5c7af1b9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b84791ecb3e7443fa2cf61b5c7af1b9b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would have expected cooperation by Parliament on the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill, because an inadvertent error was made at the time the original bill was passed. It was not something that was decided on by Parliament. In fact, it was an unintended error made by Parliament, by all parties in the House. I can say that, because all parties got to sit around the table to discuss the original legislation over many, many months, and to go over its every detail. In fact, it is probably the only legislation I can think of where that has happened. As Heather Roy pointed out when she spoke on the bill, all parties were involved, and were pleased to be involved, in trying to get the best legislation we could. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI accept the comments made earlier by Charles Chauvel\u2014not in this debate, but he has said them before\u2014that we need to look at how errors are made and try to minimise them. But the Minister of Police has pointed out that the original bill went through a very long process, which involved the M\u0101ori Party and the Green Party, which was consulted on by the wider public, including M\u0101ori, and which went to our best legal brains. Yet at the end of the day we still found two inadvertent errors in it. I think that is because we are human. We do not know everything, and sometimes errors are made. That is why I would have expected cooperation on this bill, and I would have expected it under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI think Lianne Dalziel set out very clearly why we need to pass this legislation under urgency. I can say that Lianne Dalziel is a person who looks very carefully at all legislation, looks very carefully at human rights issues, and gives very good advice on it all. She could see that there was a need for us to do this under urgency. I am not in favour of taking urgency on bills that are not urgent, and the Government has taken a whipping on that from other parties in this House. But let us face up to it: when an issue requires urgency, we expect the best cooperation possible on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI too was very surprised by the comments made by Rahui Katene from the M\u0101ori Party. I could not detect a conspiracy in this bill. I was surprised that the M\u0101ori Party had had it for 10 days and then said it was a conspiracy. The member said it came \u201Cunder plain cover\u201D. I presume that when the bill was given to the M\u0101ori Party the party was told the name of the bill, what was in the bill, and what it did, so for the member to come to this House and say that it was a conspiracy, that it came \u201Cunder plain cover\u201D, and that she did not know anything about it seems to me to be a great surprise, and in contradiction to what the Minister of Police herself said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ERahui Katene went on to say that there were better and bigger things to do on this day in New Zealand. Of course some people would think there are better and bigger things to do every day in New Zealand than to be in this Parliament. But I actually think that this change is an important change that needs to be made. When we get to the Committee stage, the Minister will have an opportunity to outline in greater detail why the matter was discovered in October last year, and what process took place then before it came before this Parliament at this time. I think that people will look forward to that explanation; I am sure there will be one. I think it is an important thing to have. There are already people off today at the tangi for Sir Paul Reeves. There will be people going to different functions. But we are paid to do a job here, as well, and that is what we are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThere appears to be a bit of information missing for some members. We are talking about the retention of information about young people who have been before the court and had a charge proved against them. We are not talking about the innocent young person who has not done anything; we are talking about a young person who has been before the Youth Court, had a charge proved against them, and been subjected to a finding or an order by the Youth Court. Those findings, which we can go into later when we get to that clause, are set out in the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. They can be many and varied. They can include, for example, situations where restitution has been required to be paid to the victim of a crime. So we are not talking about some idea that we will pick up young M\u0101ori or Pacific people off the street and hold their information when they have done nothing. We are talking about young people who have been before the Youth Court, have had a charge proved against them, and have been subject to a finding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3e360867f34db08608f07f3ca5dfb9\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: And we know who the police are picking up, who they are charging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e813f0e3f79c4850b310bfc0c717bc90\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I would be interested to know why the member who is interjecting now would not think it appropriate to hold that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI think that Chris Hipkins gave an extremely good example. Young people in Upper Hutt\u2014and this has happened in my own electorate, and I am sure it has happened in many other people\u2019s electorates\u2014have gone out and etched on the windows of businesses within the business community. That cannot be rubbed off. They have ruined entire plate glass windows with the etching, which costs businesses thousands of dollars. Those young people have been detected, they have been picked up, they have appeared before the Youth Court, a finding has been made, and an order has been given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhen that order was given under the old Act, the police could retain the photographs and fingerprints of those young people, because they had offended. The next time they did it, there was the ability to ensure that the right person was charged with the crime committed. So I cannot for the life of me understand why we would not want to continue to hold that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThere is a very important point here: Keith Locke said: \u201CWhat price justice?\u201D. I say to Keith Locke: \u201CWhat price justice also for the victims?\u201D\u2014for the victims who were subjected to a young person destroying their property at the cost of thousands of dollars. That young person has had a charge proved by the Youth Court, and the police want to hold the information about that young person who has offended. In many areas, it is to help them if they reoffend, or to ensure there is justice for those who have been injured in the committing of that offence. I cannot see what is so wrong in doing that. That is what we did for decades. The Policing Act 1958 was a 50-year-old Act, but when we finally rewrote it 50 years after its enactment, we forgot or overlooked the need to carry over those clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI also thought it was a red herring from the M\u0101ori Party to say that the issue we needed to discuss was about obtaining personal information. This bill has nothing to do with obtaining information. I am certainly happy to debate that issue at a later date, and I also have views on how we obtain information and what information we obtain. But that is not what this bill is about. This bill is about the retention of impersonal information about a young person who has offended, and who has already appeared before the Youth Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EKeith Locke, in his contribution to the first reading, also asked \u201CWhat would be one or two appeals?\u201D. Well, Keith Locke would not have any idea how many appeals there would be if we did not take urgency on this bill today. He said the cost would be some figure like maybe $6 million. Well, I can tell the House that I would rather spend $6 million on helping young people, and on putting in place support for young people, than on wasting the time of the court and wasting the time of the police to rehear a case in which the Youth Court has already made a finding on a young person, but whose case is reopened on a technicality. You see, there is a cost to justice, but there are two sides to that\u2014many sides, in fact: the cost to police time, the cost to court time, and the cost to the victims who were offended against. Sometimes I think it is important to try to weigh up all of them and look at where the balance is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House believe that it was not intended that we did not carry through those clauses. The matter was never raised by the Greens in those discussions; it was never raised by the M\u0101ori Party in 2 years of consultation. It was an error, and it is an error that we ought to correct today as soon as possible. I think, as Chris Hipkins has said, that it is in the interests of young people to do the best we can once they have appeared before the Youth Court, to give them an opportunity when an order is made that is diverting them away from the District Court, and from a major crime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d383263b579d44e2a21a3984871fc83c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member; her time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022613aac0908c44f68bd90a5951000f7ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022613aac0908c44f68bd90a5951000f7ea\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E The Police Act of 1958 put in the provision that the particulars of young people be recorded. It is worthwhile reflecting on the reason for that. The reason is that young people who go through the Youth Court may have made some pretty dumb decisions in committing the crime for which they were convicted, so the Parliament of the day, back in 1958, made, in my view, the very sensible decision that by keeping their particulars, the police were then able, if you like, to track those young people if they were to offend again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe intention of doing that, I guess, is to hold those young people to account. I also suggest that if young people knew that their particulars were held on record, it might have the effect of making them less likely to offend. That, surely, was the intention of the New Zealand Parliament in 1958, and again was the intention of the Parliament in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThere was an oversight, and a mistake was made at that time. The Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill seeks to correct that mistake. It enjoys the support of most of this Parliament\u2014quite rightly, in my view\u2014in that it holds young people to account and it provides a disincentive for them to offend again. In this second reading speech I again commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00227ef58abddaa047598fc7dcd399d4cfd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ef58abddaa047598fc7dcd399d4cfd5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I want to put on the record the conclusion of the regulatory impact statement. Nobody in this House will be surprised to find that I have studied it in depth. \u201CThe Policing (Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill will make no substantial change to the Policing Act 2008. The Policing Act 2008 will be amended (most probably section 34) in order to reinstate the scope for the retention and use of youth IP\u201D\u2014identifying particulars\u2014\u201Cprovided for in the Police Act 1958 and that was intended to apply to the 2008 Act. There is no evidence of a policy decision during the development of the Policing Act 2008, to reduce the circumstances under which Police could retain youth IP. Sections 32 to 34 of the 2008 Act aimed to allow Police to collect a range of personal information from suspected offenders for the primary purpose of identification prior to charge or summons. This information is to be destroyed unless a conviction is secured following criminal proceedings, or the offender\u2019s guilt is otherwise established. The legislation was drafted in this way to ensure that Police did not have the ability to build up personal information on people who were detained but who were later established not to have committed an offence. The amendment sought is consistent with the original intention of the Policing Act 2008, in that it seeks to retain the youth IP once the charge against the young person has been proved. As such there does not appear to be any specific reasons for not reinstating the provisions of the Police Act 1958.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what the bill does, we see that it does what the regulatory impact statement asks it to do, which is to address sections 34 and 34A of the principal Act. When we look at the principal Act we find that they sit within a part of the Act called \u201CPowers, operations, and offences\u201D, and it specifically talks about identification of people detained by police. Unless somebody was an incredible technical expert, there is no way that one would know from the face of the words in this statute that it did not allow the police to retain the information for people who had been convicted. Certainly, on the face of it, it says that the information cannot be retained for those who have been detained but are subsequently released. On the face of it, there is no way that anyone would know that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat is backed up by the Hansard of the debate on the Policing Bill on 26 August 2008. In fact, the debate on Part 3 traversed two dates\u20147 August, then it was picked up again on 26 August. There were only two speakers on that part: the Hon Annette King, who was, obviously, speaking as the Minister to introduce the part in the Committee stage, and one Chester Borrows, who took two calls on the part to show the National Opposition\u2019s support for bringing the current policing regime \u201Cinto the modern era\u201D, to quote him. It was a very brief but, obviously, meaningful contribution to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhat I think is extraordinary, given the debate we have had in this House today from both the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party, is they said nothing about the part, at all. They did not even contribute to the debate on it. In fact, the amendments were agreed to and Part 3 as amended was agreed to without a party vote being called. So there was no focus on this part whatsoever. I would have thought that if it was such a point of principle, it would have been dealt with then. On the face of it, the bill as it then was looked like it was doing what we are making it do now. If it was such a big issue, why was it not raised at the time? I myself would probably take advantage of an opportunity to have a go if I felt really strongly about something. If the Government was bringing back an employment relations amendment or something else that I felt particularly passionate about, then I guess I would have a go, even though I felt that it would be taking advantage of a technical error that people had not realised at the time was being made. We would have had a field day with it, absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut that is not the case here. This is a case where the whole of Parliament understood completely what it was doing, and the technical writing of the law did not deliver on that understanding. That is all that we are dealing with here. It is just a technical error. It is a draftsperson error. We are a Parliament made up of human beings. We are not all legal professionals with the technical skill of the draftsperson. I certainly would not pretend to even begin to have that skill. I always took great care with the wording of legislation but even I did not always get it right, as we can see if we look at the financial advisers legislation, which our select committee virtually had to completely rewrite when it came back to the House under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere are occasions when people get it wrong, and if they do get it wrong, then Parliament has to be able to front up and make those amendments. I do not think it is an opportunity to relitigate any of the issues that may be outstanding from the previous bill, even though I have just admitted that I would be hypocritical and do that if I got the opportunity on an issue I felt passionate about. But I just do not think this legislation fits the bill. What this bill today does is correct a technical drafting error that prevented the intention of Parliament being expressed. That is all it does. I do not think it is appropriate for the opportunity to be taken to relitigate, and certainly not to cast aspersions by saying the bill is being dealt with on a particular day in order to avoid the full scrutiny of this House. The full scrutiny of this House has been applied to this part. It was applied on 7 August 2008 and again on 26 August 2008. It had substantial consideration prior to the original bill even being introduced, as evidenced by the fact that that legislation had overwhelming support. We do not often get legislation on which there is such unanimity across the House. I feel that on this occasion it is important that this bill proceeds under urgency through all of its stages so that we can correct a technical error and right a wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u00228c2c556a93844cd792b4df67331f2aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c2c556a93844cd792b4df67331f2aa3\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the comments made by my colleague Keith Locke earlier and to reiterate the Green Party\u2019s opposition to the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. We do so on points of process and of substance. The process issues are clear. We are in urgency. I was handed a paper copy of this bill at about 11 o\u2019clock last night. We did not have an electronic copy. We had no access to the regulatory impact statement. It is very difficult to make substantive decisions and judgments on the quality or necessity of legislation at 11 o\u2019clock in the evening without the benefit of reference to any other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe had no knowledge of the status of the evidence being talked about. We understand that for a number of years\u2014for a period of some 2 years, perhaps\u2014evidence was retained, which was an illegal act on the part of the police. It was clearly inadvertent; it was something they believed they could legitimately do. It was not until sometime after 8 o\u2019clock this morning when we were able to get access to one of the Minister\u2019s advisers that we knew about the status of that evidence\u2014what the actual mischief was that this bill was seeking to correct. We were speculating, until we saw this bill land on the Table an hour and a half ago, as to what the problem was that was being addressed here. Certainly, our speculation led us to the position the Government is proposing that there is an issue here of potential liability, but it is a clear failure of process on the Government\u2019s part not to inform a party in this House of what is going on. That is sufficient reason in itself to oppose the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe Standing Orders Committee is currently working on ways of streamlining the work of this House to avoid the necessity for urgency or extended hours. All parties in this House should be taken into confidence on matters like this, which is a correction of an error\u2014we concede that. An error was made by everybody in this House. There is no dispute about that. But to the extent that we are not taken into the confidence of the Government and given an appropriate period of time to give due consideration to these issues, then the Government will have barriers. Any Government will have barriers if parties are not given due time. It is interesting to note that the M\u0101ori Party has had 10 days to consider this bill, and it has come to a view to oppose it. We respect that view, as I hope all others do. We do not know how long Labour has had to consider this bill. We had overnight and less than an hour and a half this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are not, in essence, opposed to correcting errors. From memory, we supported the necessary changes to the constables\u2019 oath issue last year, or earlier this year. There was a clear and urgent need to make that change under urgency because it potentially endangered a significant number of arrests, and, indeed, convictions later. We are now told that the Government has been aware of this problem since October 2010. There has been ample time and opportunity to give this issue correct and appropriate process, and to engage the whole House in looking for a solution to the problem. We are told\u2014I assume in good faith\u2014that nothing in this bill will extend the powers of the police, but that the position will simply revert to what was believed to be the status quo post the change in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWith all due respect to the good intentions of the people making that claim, we would like the opportunity to verify it. It is not unheard of that errors do occur, either intentionally or by omission. This bill could be giving further powers to the police in relation to the issue of evidence retained or gathered or whatever it might be. We would like to have the time to get an independent legal verification of that point, but clearly that is something that will be effectively denied unless we can do it in the course of the time this debate is actually in progress. The point has been made that the police are seeking to restore what they believe is their authority to retain evidence from young people who, effectively, are convicted in the Youth Court. The exceptions are those who are sent to the District Court for sentencing. Clearly, only a high order of offending will involve that reference to the District Court. Under sections 283A to N of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, which is referred to in this bill, there is an extraordinary range of penalties against which young people can be judged, and, if they are so penalised, then the information can be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESection 283A refers to incidents where young people might be found to have offended by the Youth Court, and the judge might choose to discharge them or to issue an admonishment. Basically, that is to give them, for want of a better word, a good bollocking in the court\u2014to tell them off, to indicate to them that they might be at the top of the slippery slope, and to encourage them to mend their ways. I suggest that judges would use that option only when the offending was at the very, very low end of the scale, and when the young person has no history of offending and perhaps has a good, robust family background. We can assume that judges would exercise their judgment in giving those very, very light-handed penalties. At the other end, under group 7 responses, we are talking about much more serious penalties given to those young persons: residential supervision, requirements to pay reparations or quite substantive fines, and penalties that, effectively, could routinely otherwise be applied in an adult court, the District Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EUnder the substantive part of this conversation, we would like to challenge whether it is appropriate, for example, that evidence ought to be retained, that a young person\u2019s identifying particulars ought to be retained, when the judgment is that the offending was of such a low order that simply a discharge or admonishment from the judge is an appropriate response from the Youth Court. That is a very long way from a single offence, or more likely a history of repeat offending that causes the judge to impose a much more substantive penalty along the lines of residential supervision or whatever it might be. We are told there is a likelihood of costs being involved if this error is not corrected and if the correction is not made retrospective, back to 2008. That is a genuine concern. Looking at the numbers, I think the figure of $6 million pops up at us from the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI highlight the fact that the possibility of an appeal for a young person who has been convicted would be there only if the evidence previously retained by the police was the sole evidence that led to that conviction\u2014for example, a fingerprint. It would be in cases only when there was no other evidence, when there was no admission of guilt, and when there was not some other means of identifying the culprit who had committed whatever the offence might have been. So the number of cases where there is a likelihood of liability to the police, to the Crown, would be very, very small, I would argue. How many cases at Youth Court level rest on a single fingerprint, or perhaps a single photograph from a CCTV camera? How often is it that a single piece of evidence is not reinforced or supported by somebody who had observed the carry-on, such as a shopkeeper or a member of the community, with other evidence being available to the court upon which to base a finding of guilt at the Youth Court level? Having said that, I say that doubtless there will be occasions when a young person might potentially see the opportunity to appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAgain, I reiterate what my colleague Mr Locke said earlier. The likelihood of young people wanting to once again go through the court process, to once again shine the light on the facts of their prior offending and on the fact that they were actually issued a conviction or the equivalent of a conviction, is, we believe, vanishingly small, and does not justify this urgency process or the secrecy under which this legislation has been brought to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe have now been debating this matter for something like an hour and a half or an hour and three-quarters. The rest of the country is probably completely unaware of what we are doing, but without getting into pedantics I say that we are making a substantive change here. What is currently not legally allowable police practice will become legally allowable police practice if this legislation goes through, so to suggest that it is not a substantive change is actually a little bit ambiguous, to say the least. As to bringing into the debate the matter of the 1958 legislation, which was amended in 2008, we will say more about that in later speeches. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00221f38480f7c654628b4f4b0613f45d0bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f38480f7c654628b4f4b0613f45d0bd\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E There is an enormous body of literature associated with existing police bias and overscrutiny of M\u0101ori, which I hope was explored in full before the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill was drafted. It is disturbing to be in this Chamber and to hear the frivolous banter going across the House about members being children at heart or being scruffy and dirty. It is disturbing because we are talking about an extremely serious issue. I am not talking about police powers; I am talking about the well-being and the future of our youth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI will firstly respond to the comments of the Minister of Police that she was disappointed that we had drawn light to the fact that the public was not made aware of this issue until a few hours ago. I challenge both Minister Collins and Mrs King to read the Hansard. I did not say at any point in my call on the first reading of this bill that this was a conspiracy; I asked: \u201CIs this conspiracy theory?\u201D. Clearly, the question has got people excited, but let us not shirk from the responsibilities of debating in a manner that is open and allows different points of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EYes, the M\u0101ori Party did receive a copy of this bill, as is expected in the confidence and supply agreement, but a key statement in that same agreement is that \u201CIn the event that National Party-led Government papers are provided to the M\u0101ori Party in the course of consultation or briefings they shall be treated as confidential and shall not be released or the information used for any public purpose\u201D. So although we were given the draft 10 days ago, it was not until 9:30 a.m. this morning that the bill was introduced and we were therefore able to talk about it publicly. We take issues of confidentiality and good faith seriously, so we did not leak the paper, we did not speak publicly about this issue, and we did not contact our networks. We did not seek feedback until the information was made public, and I hope that that would be acknowledged by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI also have in mind what the Hon Annette King has said about there being five big reports that justify this move to store the unique personal identifying material of our rangatahi. Just as a starting point, let me share with members at least the same number of big reports that create a certain level of truth to the allegation that crime will be found where it is most looked for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe could start by reading the vital resource produced by the Hon Justice Eddie Durie in 2007, \u201CThe Study of M\u0101ori Offending\u201D. There is the evidence published in 2003 in Professor David Fergusson\u2019s 21-year longitudinal study on ethnicity and criminal convictions, which breaks down the data into both police contact statistics and criminal convictions. Moana Jackson\u2019s study from 1988 should be a core text of any lawyer training: The M\u0101ori and the Criminal Justice System. A New Perspective: He Whaip\u0101nga Hou. There is the research by P\u0101nia Te Whaiti and Michael Roguski, M\u0101ori Perceptions of the Police and Police Perceptions of M\u0101ori. There is also former Commissioner of Police Peter Doone\u2019s Report on Combating and Preventing M\u0101ori Crime, which was published by the now defunct crime prevention unit in the Ministry of Justice. These are just a few reports that must be considered within the debate if we are truly to exercise due diligence in looking at this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EEssentially, the key point is that although M\u0101ori make up only 15 percent of the general population, they currently comprise 40 to 45 percent of all police apprehensions. The question that this House is yet to tackle is why M\u0101ori are overrepresented in the criminal justice system. But there is an even more pressing issue that we must attend to. Let me quote from the opening address of His Honour Judge Andrew Becroft, Principal Youth Court Judge, at the Ngakia Kia Pu\u0101wai Conference 2005 in my home town of Nelson. In his address, \u201CM\u0101ori Youth Offending\u201D, Judge Becroft said: \u201CMaori youth offenders make up around 50% of all youth offenders but in some Youth Courts the figure is as high as 80% or 90%\u2014despite Maori encompassing only about a quarter of the New Zealand population under 17 years of age. This situation is deeply concerning to everyone involved in youth justice.\u201D That is absolutely so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ESo why is this Parliament, apart from the M\u0101ori Party and the Green Party, prepared to put so much focus on increasing police powers, rather than giving some serious consideration to the focus of an ethnic bias in the New Zealand arrest and conviction process. All of the research that I cited earlier indicates that M\u0101ori with a given history of offending are more likely to be convicted than non-M\u0101ori with the same offending history and social background. In another report, called Whanake Rangatahi, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri revealed that M\u0101ori youth are three times more likely to be apprehended, prosecuted, and convicted than non-M\u0101ori youth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe other very significant issue that I think has been woefully overlooked so far in this debate is that this bill targets our young people. As such, surely it is essential that young people contribute to this debate. What do we have to lose? Why would we not want to hear the views of our young people about this issue? Two months ago Rethinking Crime and Punishment called a meeting of young people\u201416 to early 30s\u2014to discuss the establishment of a young people\u2019s forum. They were concerned that the voice of young people is absent from the conversation about crime and justice. Despite the fact that young people are the most involved in the criminal justice system, both as victims and as offenders, young people are missing from the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAt that inaugural meeting of the young people\u2019s forum they raised some key issues, which I hope could be heard in this House. They wanted to be involved in creating, influencing, shaping, designing, and contributing to policy and strategy. They wanted to see a strong young people\u2019s voice speaking out on crime and justice issues, and gaining the attention of policy makers, researchers, and those involved in the political process. They sought our support in assessing and responding to the needs of young people in decision making and planning processes, but wanted to have ownership. They were not interested in paternalism or tokenism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn this debate a lot has already been said about the concept that mistakes are made. Well, let me share a comment made by Emily Whittaker on Pita Sharples\u2019 Facebook page, at 11 a.m. today: \u201CIt is not fair that our rangatahi records be kept by the police for future use. Many of our Rangatahi make mistakes like we all do, and, in a lot of cases they regret their misdoings. Rangatahi are entitled to another chance. Why should they be the target for negative actions created by government. Why not focus on the positive and encourage our Rangatahi to stay out of the justice system altogether. I strongly oppose this bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EHere is another comment, from Awhina Rameka-Waapu: \u201CAe it would be relevant to all youth, engari, this is discriminatory policy. M\u0101ori are over-represented at every stage of the criminal justice process and can be seen as a result of bias that operates within the criminal justice system. \u2026 As such, this policy will only exacerbate this bias and discrimination. Additionally, all youth will make stupid mistakes in their lives, we must provide the opportunity for second chances. This policy will take that away from them.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EMrs King stated earlier that there is a cost to justice. The M\u0101ori Party will never resile from our belief that the cost to justice that keeps on keeping on is the opportunity cost lost to our young people. We must not be afraid to hear what our young people have to say about this policy. The M\u0101ori Party is doing what it can to bring that debate to the House today. Our Facebook pages, our Twitter accounts, and our telephones are working hard to hear what our rangatahi have to say. We will place those views on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002277faafd505864b36b0a0914065af958f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277faafd505864b36b0a0914065af958f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise again in support of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I was interested in the comments of the previous speaker, Rahui Katene. I suspect that the heartfelt appeal the member made on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party for M\u0101ori youth is misguided in this debate. This debate is not about introducing something that is not there already; it is about correcting a mistake that was made inadvertently by Parliament. I suspect that the debate the member would like to have is on whether these records should be kept. That will be a debate for another time and on other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI was also interested to hear the comments from the Green member David Clendon. He suggested that the Green Party had not been taken into the confidence of the Government over this bill. Confidence goes both ways. If the Greens had been taken into the confidence of the Government, and the information contained within the proposals had been let out into the public arena, then that would have created some problems for the police and potential costs to the justice system. So the member should perhaps go back and talk to the co-leaders of his own caucus and ask why they feel that the party might not have been taken into confidence. As we have just heard from Rahui Katene, the M\u0101ori Party was taken into confidence, and its members maintained that confidence. That is the challenge I throw out there, and I look forward to a response to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would also like to bring to the attention of the House that if these amendments were not able to be made in the way they have been, then there is a high probability that there would be some potential further litigation or appeal against some of the information that has been kept, which would have wasted the time of the Ministry of Justice and the police and achieved nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EFinally, I am pleased that the member Mr Hipkins raised the fact that I am now no longer in the age group that is eligible to be affected by this bill, but I suggest to the member that he should pay very close attention to the detail of this bill, because his own records may still be captured under the provisions being discussed. I suspect that he will pay attention to the detail. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022f86ca5ebe66040ec8b3bd1cc0a8812e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f86ca5ebe66040ec8b3bd1cc0a8812e4\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I have been listening to this debate very carefully, and I find it quite fascinating. I find fascinating how this issue has been construed and the sorts of arguments that have been presented. I am not going to look at this bill from a historical point of view or even a technical point of view. I was not in Parliament when this legislation was passed, and I certainly do not have the technical expertise of colleagues like the Hon Lianne Dalziel, but it seems that if we take just a very simple common-sense approach\u2014and I know that that word gets overused, and I say it with some nervousness\u2014then, essentially, what we are talking about here is a mistake. A mistake in legislation was made that has some significant consequences. The Hon Lianne Dalziel has referred back to the Hansard of the time and has been very clear in looking at what the intention of Parliament was. It is always important when we look at our legislation to see what the intention of Parliament was at the time. The intention of Parliament at the time was clearly not to make the change that has been inadvertently made in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that the average person living in this country would think, given that circumstance, that it is the responsibility of Parliament to fix that mistake\u2014not to create a long and unnecessary debate about one very specific matter, but to actually fix the mistake that everybody agrees was made. I have not yet heard a speaker stand up and say: \u201CNo, no, that was not the intention of Parliament and we strongly did this, that, and the other thing at the time.\u201D Clearly, the intention of Parliament was not to end up with the outcome we have currently. What is being sought here is to amend the Policing Act to restore the legal position in relation to the storage of youth identifying particulars\u2014that is, fingerprints and photographs, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe Hon Annette King took us through the process she led as then Minister of Police of amending the Policing Act. I also say that everybody in this House understands that Annette King has a reputation for being a Minister who was very thorough and\u2014as she has often been described\u2014a \u201Csafe pair of hands\u201D. She undertook a long consultative process of 2 years to look at an Act that was 50 years old. She has recognised in this Chamber, as we all have, that a mistake was made during that process. But given the long process and given the complexity of some of the things that were being changed in that legislation, it is hardly surprising. This does happen from time to time, and Parliament should be duty-bound to fix that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ESo now we have the situation where loopholes could be created and young people will not be picked up for committing subsequent crimes because their identifying particulars cannot be stored because of a technicality. Charles Chauvel\u2014and this has been quoted by others\u2014has talked about what we need to do when there are legislative mistakes. We try not to make them\u2014that is the first thing. He is quoted in Hansard talking about trying to identify how and why mistakes are made so that we do not repeat the problem, because as a Parliament we want to pass good law. I think that everybody in this place would agree with that. We want to pass good law that will stand up and reflect the policy intention, reflect the consideration undertaken by a select committee where the public have their say, and reflect what we are trying to achieve\u2014not to create unintended consequences as has happened here. So I put a lot of weight on the reference to what was in Hansard around this particular provision. It makes it very, very clear that there was no intention for this to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe storage of the youth identifying particulars is vital for the detection of youth offenders who go on to reoffend, as I have said, and it is important that we have the correct mechanisms to prevent youth offenders from progressing to adult criminals. The sooner we pick up people who are offending, the more that can be done to try to stop them going down a certain path\u2014especially with young people. We want to be able to intervene at the earliest available opportunity to identify the underlying problems and to try to ensure that they go down a different track. If that is delayed because the police do not have the ability to identify somebody in a repeat situation, then the consequences will come to the fore\u2014just later. They will come to the fore later. I think we all agree that early intervention around youth offenders is important. So rectifying the mistake that was made is vital to solving crimes and vital to providing early assistance and intervention for our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ELater we will be talking about the parts of the bill, but it is a pretty simple bill. The first part really just says that it is retrospective, and the second part looks at repealing section 34 and inserting new sections 34 and 34A in the Policing Act to clarify the instances in which the identifying particulars of young people will be destroyed. It looks at that situation. There are two factors here, in terms of general rules. I understand why the Greens and the M\u0101ori Party are raising concerns, and I think it is important that we are scrupulous about these things, particularly around retrospective legislation. We all want to be scrupulous around those sorts of situations, because that is important, and we want to be scrupulous about process. We in the Labour team have often raised concerns about process under this current National Government: the abuse of urgency, the lack of scrutiny, and the lack of an evidence base in legislation. But we do not believe, in this particular circumstance, that this is what the problem is. We are talking about dealing with something that everybody agrees is a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe broader issues that have been raised in this debate are very, very important ones: the causes of crime. I think we all want to get to the bottom of the causes of crime. One of the differences is that we on this side of the House understand that increasing inequality and poverty are part of the problem, and that this is something that is going on in this country as we speak. More and more people are struggling to make ends meet, the gap between rich and poor is growing, and our young people and our children are being disadvantaged. Too many of them are living in poverty, too many of them are unemployed, and too many of them are not in education, jobs, or training. These are serious issues that we keep raising, and, I am afraid to say, the Government has really, really failed in regard to our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThese are important questions to deal with when we are talking about the causes of crime. But I do think we need to ensure that the police have the tools they need to identify whether people are starting down a criminal track, and to intervene so that we can try to do something about that earlier. I also think it would be very good for us to have a much more substantive debate about the causes of crime and to hear the voices of young people. I had the privilege recently, with my colleague Charles Chauvel, of visiting Arohata Women\u2019s Prison and speaking to a number of the women who were there undertaking drug and alcohol treatment. They were very pleased to have two MPs asking their view on what led them to be there and what would make a difference to their chances of reoffending when they are released from prison. It was a very, very interesting conversation, and a lot of good insights came from that. People want to have the skills to get a job. People want a chance, and people want to deal with things like addiction, so these are important things. But hearing that directly from the women in Arohata was very, very powerful for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ESo, as I say, I understand why there is debate here, but I think that if we want to talk about the causes of crime, if we want to look at particular disadvantaging of M\u0101ori\u2014and I absolutely accept that M\u0101ori are overrepresented\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aad5b56ebf4268ba18e78a6cbd4ff7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. Her time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b99ed34ee604392bb1fbc256f13a191\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b99ed34ee604392bb1fbc256f13a191\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take another call on the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I take cognisance of my colleague Rahui Katene\u2019s impassioned comments about the unemployment rates for young M\u0101ori particularly, and offending among young M\u0101ori. It is a huge concern for this Government, and I draw to her attention that there are thousands more Youth Guarantee places and places in trades academies on stream to help address that problem, as well as growing our economy, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EHowever, this particular bill we are considering now is not really the time for that argument. That argument is not apposite to this debate. What we have here, as has been pointed out by a variety of speakers, is an unintended consequence of the drafting of a bill that has led to the removal of the police\u2019s ability to use certain tools. These tools are the storage of identifying particulars of young offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWhen the Policing Act 2008 was passed, it was assumed that the legal situation relating to the police\u2019s ability to keep these identifying particulars\u2014fingerprints and photographs\u2014would be carried over from the Police Act 1958. The simple matter is that it was not. There was no policy decision made to change this; it was, as we know, an unintended consequence of the drafting of the bill. We have heard many reasons why, from members who were in the House at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI think it is a very simple situation we are dealing with here. I acknowledge the concerns of my colleague. I will say no more at this stage, other than to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225e0f910cf56545f68bb1ee7ebf43c206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e0f910cf56545f68bb1ee7ebf43c206\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is really important that we keep in perspective what we are doing here. The Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill corrects a mistake that was never intended. It restores the status quo. So we are not making a significant change; we are restoring the status quo. I think it is really important that we keep in mind that this mistake, this change that has occurred to the policing legislation, was never debated by the public. It was never debated by Parliament. People did not have the opportunity to make submissions on it at a select committee\u2014that was never intended. So to say that we are somehow erring by restoring the status quo and repealing this unintended change to the law is simply wrong. This is the right thing to do. Restoring the status quo, in the absence of debate that should have preceded the change, is the right thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am not saying that we should not have a debate about whether the police should store the identifying details of young people. If we had that debate, I personally would stand up in Parliament and say that, yes, I support the provisions in the current legislation. I am not afraid of debating the issue, but I do not think we should debate it in the context of correcting a mistake that was made. Basically, the arguments being put forward by the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party seem to be that we should leave in place a law that was unintended and was never debated, and I do not think that that is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI am not entirely sure what the point of Rahui Katene\u2019s many contributions so far has been, unless, of course, she wanted to devote 20 minutes to demonstrating quite clearly that the M\u0101ori Party has absolutely no influence over the National Government. We did not need 20 minutes for that; we knew that anyway. I think that all she has managed to do so far is demonstrate the fact that the M\u0101ori Party does not seem to have any influence over the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that both the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party have missed the critical point here, which is that the bill is restoring the status quo. It is not designed to make a significant law change. As I mentioned in my first reading speech\u2014unusually, I am delivering my second reading speech only shortly after delivering the first reading speech\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and Moana Mackey did not hear the first one, so I am sure she will appreciate it\u2014I think it is really important that we continue to respect the role of the Youth Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Youth Court is there to protect young people from themselves in some instances, as the Minister mentioned, but also from the harsher edges of the adult criminal justice system\u2014we could use the Bill English phrase, \u201Cthe sharp edges\u201D. The Youth Court is designed to protect young people from that. I think that is good. I think many of the concerns that David Clendon raised\u2014I had some sympathy with many of the concerns he raised\u2014when taken to their logical conclusion, question the valid role of the Youth Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that the Youth Court is really, really important, and we should not be questioning the role of the Youth Court and whether it is doing a good job. I think the Youth Court does a very good job, and I am really disappointed if this debate, which is about correcting a mistake, is used to question the validity of the Youth Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would be disappointed by is if this debate is used to question the police. I spent 10 years fighting a legal case with the police, which was ultimately found in my favour. But I am not holding a grudge against the police on that, because I think that, overwhelmingly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227515df6bf8a64a889ceefc8c140782dc\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014forgiving member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb10bfc852184feb9ec73dd42c664a28\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I am a very forgiving member\u2014the police do a very, very good job. I will tell members another thing. I went out on night patrol with the police a few weeks ago, and it was a real eye-opener for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b83598b7db47da860f6d2942d127a5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called an arrest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcca2c2ddce84a0f89239d30ae1bb328\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I was there voluntarily, I can assure the Minister. It was an eye-opener, and a lot of the people they were dealing with on a Friday night were young people. They were young people who were intoxicated or had taken drugs. They were very difficult to deal with, and, overwhelmingly, what I saw was police acting in a very responsible manner in their dealings with young people. They were not going over the top; they were basically looking after the young people who were getting themselves into trouble. I think we should respect the really important role the police play in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI do not think that we should always assume that the police are out to get people. They are not. Ultimately, they are out there to protect everybody. Sometimes they are protecting young people from themselves, and I think they do a pretty good job of that overall. I want to thank the Hutt Valley police for giving me the opportunity to go out on the night patrol with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b19576cb784a398ddc3c88635e24d0\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Over that 10-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6106bfa72034555a67067cf39578904\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: They have obviously forgiven me for the 10-year battle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256737208f682471f8f45d710d3e88ab2\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: They probably don\u2019t remember you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c34bc563d541e4803a01fee2d8c3bf\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: They probably do not remember me, either. I thank Steve Chadwick\u2014that was very flattering!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9760832ed14e5db4f5e8a2a0a9396c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the member arrested when he was 7?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a273c0fa64a485f92a31f0f51f6d680\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to go into the case in detail if it would be useful for the Minister. But I come back to the substance of this particular bill and the reason why we want to pass it under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned in my first reading speech, I do not want to see young people who have been through the Youth Court, have effectively been found guilty of doing whatever they were doing, and have been dealt with under the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act through the Youth Court, being let off on the basis that the information the police stored that identified them in the first place had been held by the police illegitimately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other thing, of course, is that it might not necessarily be the dealings of the Youth Court that are brought into question. A subsequent proceeding in the District Court could be brought into question on the basis that the information the police used in the District Court hearing had been collected for an earlier hearing by the Youth Court. That could also be questioned, and I do not think that that is the right thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf it is the right thing to do, it should be done deliberately by Parliament and not by mistake. It was never done deliberately by Parliament; it was done accidentally. If the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party had very strong views on this during the debates on the Policing Act, they could have raised those at the time. As my colleague Lianne Dalziel pointed out, the only two people to speak on that part of the debate were Chester Borrows and Annette King. When the mistake occurred M\u0101ori Party members and Green Party members did not feel strongly enough about it to debate that part of the bill at all. So if all the concerns they are raising now are legitimate concerns, there are opportunities for them to raise them, but not in the context of preserving an inadvertent law change, which is what opposition to the bill does. It preserves a law change that was not intended, that was not debated, that was not scrutinised, and that the public never had a chance to have a say on, and I think that is the wrong thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think Parliament is doing the right thing by correcting the law back to the status quo. Then, if there is a legitimate debate to be had about whether the status quo should be changed, there is a way to do that. The way to do that is, obviously, to introduce a bill, refer it to a select committee, and let the public have their say on it. We should not be making law changes by accident, then arguing that they should be preserved. I think that is what this bill is all about. It is all about making sure that the will of Parliament is actually respected, even when a mistake is made, and that is what happened in this particular case. With that, I will end here. I look forward to the Committee stage of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0727db88c464bf2bb6a94ce8d7a774c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0727db88c464bf2bb6a94ce8d7a774c\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise to take a short call on the second reading of this Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. As parents, we monitor the behaviour of our children, and we punish them sometimes to make sure they grow up to be responsible adults. My son recently was grounded because he breached some rules within the house. He lost his use of the internet and his mobile phone, and that was a terrible thing. He hated that punishment and he will, hopefully, not break those rules again. But if he continues to break those rules he will be punished further, and maybe the length of punishment will increase. The police do similar things with youth offenders who have been charged and found to be guilty. Having fingerprints and photos helps the police to identify repeat offenders. I am concerned that the data collected since the Policing Bill was enacted in 2008 may be destroyed, which would mean that youth offenders might not be dealt with to the full extent of the law. That is my only concern when we are debating this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI will go now to a comment made by the Green Party member David Clendon, who talked about process. I believe, and previous members have actually said, that the Policing Bill was debated thoroughly, and, in fact, went through the select committee process. The Law and Order Committee members are not shrinking violets; I know that for a fact. It is the case in this particular current Parliament, and I would imagine that the previous Parliament also had very robust debate in the Law and Order Committee. I believe that there would have been debate and it would have been thorough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI go to the comment made by the M\u0101ori Party member Rahui Katene, who spoke passionately about this issue. But if people listened just to her speech alone, without actually taking note of the whole context of the debate, they would be under the impression that we are introducing new legislation to increase police rights, and to take away rights from criminals. That is totally not so. This bill is about restoring police powers that they always had from 1958 to 2008 and that were unintentionally removed. Those powers were inadvertently taken away in a drafting error, and this bill is to correct that. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002236b037e31eda41e695eb054c8d4a248c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b037e31eda41e695eb054c8d4a248c\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to commend the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022362cfe7fe8b147dcbd964cf38cc39cd6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f6b6cdebd9f48f6a0b2e89b0ad64bfd\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf8c68868b2b4e4f84b97318786add79\u0022\u003EPart 1  Purpose and application of this Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022fabcbc9ed6e34aeaa057b7f3dce7fe1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fabcbc9ed6e34aeaa057b7f3dce7fe1f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has argued in the first and second readings of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill that the process we are going through, rushing this bill through in urgency, is a travesty of the parliamentary process. A lot of the argumentation both by National and Labour speakers has been that this is all just about restoring the status quo. They are using the fact that there was not a lot of debate around this provision before the Policing Act went through in 2008\u2014in fact, there was no debate about this provision\u2014to say that somehow the intention of the legislation is the way they want it: particulars can be kept by the police of basically the whole range of people involved in youth offending who have come before the Youth Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe fact that there was no substantive debate on the 2007 Policing Bill does not make a case one way or the other. If there was no debate on it, members cannot say that the intention of Parliament was in any particular direction. Labour members can come out and say they were the Government then, their intention was in that direction, and they are sorry, but they got it wrong in the legislation. Labour members can say that if they like, and National members can get up and say they now believe that the intention of the bill was this or that. But Parliament is made up of all of the MPs and parties in Parliament, and the Green Party did not engage with this particular clause in the 2007 bill, because we were not aware of all of the implications, which were not part of the general debate, so we did not commit to an argument one way or the other on this particular provision. So the idea that we, or the M\u0101ori Party, or any other party had a particular intention over the 2007 bill, which can now be divined by Labour or National speakers, is nonsensical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat has happened as a result of this debate is that there clearly is a substantive issue. Once this issue has been brought to the attention of the whole Committee, including the Green Party and M\u0101ori Party, there is a substantive issue. It is not just correcting an intention of Parliament. It may be correcting an intention of the Labour Government, or it may be correcting an intention of National, but it is not correcting the intention of Parliament. Rather than saying \u201COh well, we can rush this through in urgency under our definition of the situation.\u201D, as Labour and National are doing, they have to take Parliament into account, particularly on the substantive issue that has been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe second to last speaker for National in the second reading, Melissa Lee, said that this situation has applied since 1958. Well, let us dissect that a little bit. In 1958 there was no Youth Court. I am not an expert on what our methods of dealing with young people were like in 1958, but I think those methods were probably a little bit backward, and that is another reason to have a proper consideration of this bill, so that we can actually look at what the treatment was of young people back in 1958. We know that it was not until 31 years later in 1989 that the Youth Court was set up. So for the National speaker to say as she did that all of these provisions have applied since 1958, when there was not even a Youth Court in 1958, is nonsensical, which is another reason why we have to have a substantive discussion of this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs Rahui Katene said, M\u0101ori Party members are out consulting their networks, now that they are allowed to, because they did not have to hold their confidences past half-past 9 this morning, I think Rahui said. There is clearly not only a Green and M\u0101ori Party MPs debate in this Committee but a community debate starting up around, for example, the provisions in the Children, Young Persons, and their Families Act, section 283, paragraphs (a) to (n), which cover all of the different penalties that can be applied to young people, short of conviction. One of the first of these penalties, as my colleague David Clendon mentioned, comes up in paragraph (b), and is admonishment. The idea that someone in 2011 who is admonished for often the most trivial of offences in the Youth Court should then have their fingerprints and all kinds of things preserved is against the modern concept of justice, and youth justice in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have in this Parliament passed legislation, like the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, reflecting a more modern concept of justice\u2014that we do not want to tar offenders with things they may have committed in the past. Surely, if an 11-year-old has committed a minor offence that is dealt with by admonishment in a Youth Court, that offence is not the sort of offence that should be necessarily followed by collection of all kinds of personal details and fingerprints, etc. We want to create in that young person the feeling that\u2014after their admonishment and the family telling them they have done wrong and all the rest of it\u2014they have put all that behind them, that there is nothing in the police records in terms of identifying characteristics and fingerprints, and that they can go on to a whole new life. They might have shoplifted a packet of chewing gum or something like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Labour speaker Carol Beaumont said it was good to have a debate on the causes of crime. Well, this provision is actually a good point for a discussion on the causes of crime. I really respect what Rahui Katene said about M\u0101ori offending and P\u0101keh\u0101 and all the rest of it. But one of the problems of repeat offending, including M\u0101ori offending, is people getting alienated from the system by feeling that they are unjustly targeted. To have a softer provision, whereby all this stuff is not kept on someone who is admonished in a Youth Court for stealing a packet of chewing gum, is one way of getting rid of that alienation and reducing repeat offending. That is all modern thinking in relation to responses to crime, particularly youth crime, and is much more modern than what existed in the Police Act 1958, which has been referred to in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe question of urgency and why we need it\u2014and David Clendon said this now\u2014relates to the argument that there will be piles of court cases that cost huge amounts of money. Annette King came up with the figure of $6 million. In fact, the regulatory impact statement put out by the police says that possibly 20 percent of cases where identifying information was collected on young kids and used in a subsequent case would be appealed and could cost $6.2 million. A bit of common sense would say that when kids and their families have been through that process, they do not want to resurrect it. In something like 99 percent of cases they will not go through the appeal stuff and cost the country millions of dollars and all the rest of it. If members do not believe David Clendon and me on that, then perhaps that is why we should have a whole process around this bill. At the select committee we could get lawyers in and people from Child, Youth and Family to tell us what the situation is, whether there would be a lot of appeals, and what the advantages or disadvantages are of not collecting all this identifying information on some people who have been subject to minor penalties, diversion, admonishment, and what not in the Youth Court. Why should we not have that discussion? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is a certain embarrassment amongst the Labour and National speakers about this being retrospective legislation, and there has been a lot of criticism of retrospective legislation by the legal profession. I think that is another very strong reason for not supporting this bill and for going through a proper process whereby we can have all of the discussion. Even the whole question of the relationship between the Policing Act 2008 and the Police Act 1958 could be discussed. I have not had time as a Green Party speaker here to look at all the amendments to the 1958 Act. I know that that Act did not deal with the situation of a Youth Court, because that was not established until 1989.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00222d2e12a2c3d745529ea5c72e883f538c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d2e12a2c3d745529ea5c72e883f538c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 deals with the retrospectivity issue, but it does contain the purpose of the Act, so I suppose we can traverse a bit more broadly. As I understand it, this is where I depart literally from the Green Party speaker on this matter. The regulatory impact statement states: \u201CThere is no evidence of a policy decision being made during the development of the Policing Act 2008, to reduce the circumstances under which Police may retain youth [identifying particulars]\u201D. Perhaps that is the question that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Police, could assist the Committee with by responding in the debate on Part 1. Could she please explain to the Committee what the rules were prior to the Policing Act 2008, and how they related to the specific issue that we are addressing? I actually think that is the question that Keith Locke is asking. Given that the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act was, obviously, much later in its application than the Police Act 1958, what was it that existed before that saw us carried through to the 2008 Act provisions? I think that would be a useful basis for the discussion we will obviously have on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to go back through section 34 of the Policing Act 2008 in terms of what was stated in the bill. That provision passed through this House without any comments against it or, indeed, without any reference to any concerns, and no vote against it, either. It required that the identifying particulars of a person that are obtained under section 32 or section 33\u2014Part 3 gave the power to identify people detained by the police, but this provision was about keeping that information\u2014\u201Cmay be entered, recorded, and stored on a Police information recording system; but (b) any photographs or visual images of a person and any impressions of a person\u2019s fingerprints, palm-prints, or footprints that are obtained \u2026 must, as soon as practicable, be destroyed\u2014(i) after a decision is made not to bring proceedings\u201D\u2014that is, it will not go to trial and will not be a matter dealt with by the court, or, essentially\u2014\u201C\u2026 (ii) after the completion of proceedings against the person in respect of the offence for which the particulars were taken, unless (A) the person is convicted; or (B) the person is discharged under section 106 of the Sentencing Act 2002; or (C) an alternative resolution is imposed where the person admits to an offence (for example, diversion).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo all of those issues were there on the record. As far as the House was concerned, it believed that what it was doing was allowing the police to retain that evidence if the person was convicted, if they were discharged under section 106 of the Sentencing Act, or if an alternative resolution was imposed where the person admitted to an offence. What this particular bill does is change that to refer to \u201Ccriminal prosecution proceedings\u201D. It is a new definition, and it essentially means proceedings \u201Ccommenced against the person in respect of that offence or offences including that offence under the Crimes Act 1961, or under the Summary Proceedings Act 1957 (alone or, if the person is a child or a young person as defined in section 2(1) of the Children, Young Persons, and their Families Act 1989, in conjunction with that Act);\u201D. That is why it would be quite useful for the Minister to traverse the history of the legislation in order to make clear what would have happened under the Act in place before the 2008 Act was passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second point, which is actually the in order discussion point for Part 1, is the question of retrospectivity. I have said in the House before, I think in both the first and second readings, that retrospectivity is something this House should, as a general principle, guard against. It is not a good proposition that we retrospectively reapply the law. Obviously, people\u2019s circumstances change, and to change a person\u2019s legal rights or obligations by retrospective application is something that even our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act invokes us to guard against. But I think there are occasions when retrospectivity is acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet us take the option that is proposed by the Green Party, and that is to introduce a bill, refer it to the select committee, call for submissions, and then expect the good lawyers of New Zealand to come and give us helpful submissions about how we might improve the law, rather than their filing the trillion cases that they would file on behalf of their clients. And it would actually be their obligation to file them, because it would have been brought to their attention that there was a technical opportunity available for them to appeal and get their client off\u2014but only on a balancing act; there is no absolute guarantee that they would get their client off. In fact, the advice we have in front of us is that as long as there was other evidence, as long as this evidence was not the only evidence justifying conviction, the court might nevertheless confirm the conviction. As I said before, each case will turn on its own facts. That could result in the Crown facing case after case after case, because it could never rely on the precedent of one case\u2014the first case\u2014as would normally be in the situation with a legal test case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think it is really important that we think through carefully what is being proposed by the Government. As I said, I would normally be claiming constitutional outrage in the depths of the night, in deepest darkest urgency. I would normally refer to the date on the Chamber wall\u2014if I could read it from here. I think it says 16 August, but we are actually beyond 16 August. Oh, it is behind me? Very good. It says Tuesday, and today is not Tuesday; it is actually Thursday. So I would normally be making my constitutional outrage speech, but this bill does not deserve one of my constitutional outrage speeches, because it is not a constitutional outrage. It actually amends the legislation to say what Parliament intended to say. It was only a technical drafting error that left out the reference to the Children, Young Persons, and their Families Act that enabled this to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think the Minister, by explaining exactly what happened prior to the 2008 Act coming into effect\u2014what exactly the sequence of events was, what the law would have required\u2014will make it very clear to the Committee why this bill should pass through all of its stages in these circumstances, and why the rule against retrospectivity is not offended by this particular bill. I hope the Minister takes a call, either in the debate on Part 1 or at the beginning of the debate on Part 2, in order to clarify for all of us the specific sequence of events and how that might specifically apply. I think that would give great comfort to those who have some genuine concerns, which they have talked about. I have heard it was a conspiracy on one hand, and then somebody else said that, no, they were actually just saying it was a conspiracy theory. But I do not think there is a conspiracy theory. I do not think there is a conspiracy. I do not think anyone believes that. I think the truth is somebody has identified a mistake, and Crown Law has said, yes, it is a mistake and, yes, there are consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe police have acted on that advice and destroyed all of the evidence that they collected up until that point. They no longer retain it for that purpose. I think that is a worthy approach by the police, and I think the least this Parliament could do is restore the tools they thought they held on the passage of the 2008 legislation, and, I understand from the Minister, they held the day before the 2008 legislation was enacted. Let us put the police back into the position they were in before. Let us not worry about whether this bill is retrospective, because the police have addressed the retrospectivity issue by destroying all of the evidence they held against young people who were convicted. I think that is the dividing line for most of us in this House: we are talking only about people for whom the information was retained post-conviction or post one of those other conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef3d10bc6d56420aa4d32b0a23b54590\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef3d10bc6d56420aa4d32b0a23b54590\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I will first speak about retrospectivity. Clause 3 states: \u201CThis Act amends the Policing Act 2008.\u201D According to the explanatory note, on 30 September 2008 the police lost the power to store particulars. So any records kept since 1 October 2008 have been kept in breach of the law. In essence, the retrospectivity of this bill validates illegal behaviour by the police. If the police have acted in accordance with current law and have destroyed those records, that is great. No records have been kept, so there should be no need at all for this bill to be retrospective. As I have said previously in this debate, it is the secrecy and the urgency that are the key issues. That is what creates this problem with process that justifies opposition to this bill until the issues are considered properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI will look at the purpose of the bill. Clause 4 states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to amend the principal Act so that it indicates clearly when it authorises the storage, and when it requires the destruction, of youth identifying particulars.\u201D I guess that is a description of what this bill will do, but it is not a sufficient explanation as to why we need to store the fingerprints and photographs of our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI will share with the Committee a staggering statistic from Kim Workman, who is the director of the Rethinking Crime and Punishment project. In his work Redemption Denied: Aspects of M\u0101ori Over-representation in the Criminal Justice System, we learn that for M\u0101ori males born in 1975\u2014for example, my eldest son\u2014it is estimated that 22 percent had a Department of Corrections - managed sentence before their 20th birthday, and 44 percent had a Department of Corrections - managed sentence by the age of 35. Thankfully, my eldest son does not fit that statistic. A Department of Corrections - managed sentence includes both custodial sentences and community-based sentences. This is a fact that every MP in this House should be aware of before they vote on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThis bill, as it sets out in clause 4, provides a legislative means for the unique identifying particulars of our young people to be stored on the record. National members and Labour members alike have tried to encourage me to keep the issues I have raised during this debate for another time, and said that we need to focus our k\u014Drero on the theme of this bill: to correct a mistake that was never intended. They say we are restoring the status quo. We have been told that the M\u0101ori Party and the Green Party have missed the point. We have been challenged that we should have raised these issues when the Policing Bill came up in 2008. Without putting too fine a point on it, neither the Green member David Clendon nor I was in the House at that time. However, I have read over the contributions made by the M\u0101ori Party when the Policing Bill came before the House, and I want to restate a comment made by my colleague Dr Pita Sharples that effective policing relies on a wide measure of public support and confidence. Public support and confidence means having the courage to open up to scrutiny all issues around police behaviours. Thank goodness there are two parties in this House that have raised questions about process and about why we would introduce legislation under urgency to store the unique particulars of our rangatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI remind all those well-meaning members that there is a broader context to Part 1 of this bill, which is the grossly disproportionate youth apprehension and prosecution statistics that provide us with a distinct challenge when we think about the relationship between the police and young M\u0101ori. We know that the apprehension rate of M\u0101ori youth is more than three times that of New Zealand European youth. We need to be open to scrutiny in this House and allow substantive debate, whether or not it occurred in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00228fcc03fd0a2b41b8ad351a62b722128c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fcc03fd0a2b41b8ad351a62b722128c\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 1 of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I will talk about clauses 4 and 5 and what they do, but before I do that I need to comment on the points made by the last speaker, Rahui Katene. The intention of the bill is very narrow and it is very simple. A mistake was made. The bill deals with a particular, very narrow circumstance about maintaining identifying particulars of young people. It was not a constitutional outrage; it was a drafting error. We have a bill now to rectify a drafting error, the impact of which was to accidentally omit some words that need to be in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI find it quite extraordinary that members would see this bill as the way to deal with what are very serious issues\u2014which I have raised in the debate, and which Green members and M\u0101ori Party members have raised\u2014about our young people, about the causes of crime, and about the disproportionate impact on M\u0101ori, and even the latter points that the M\u0101ori Party member Rahui Katene made about policing conduct. All of those are really important issues that I and many of my colleagues have a great deal of sympathy with. But this bill is not the way to deal with that. A minor, technical, narrow amendment bill is not the way to start to deal with some of the most significant issues that face us as a country. We need to be constantly looking at the causes of crime. As I said in my second reading speech, we need to be looking at the impact of poverty, inequality, unemployment, and all the other things that are disproportionately affecting our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EClause 4 states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to amend the principal Act so that it indicates clearly when it authorises the storage, and when it requires the destruction, of youth identifying particulars.\u201D The purpose of this bill is to right what went wrong in 2008 when the legislation went through and, if you like, to reflect the intention of Parliament at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI am somebody who strongly believes in following good process, but good process, surely to goodness, is about introducing a bill, having select committee scrutiny, reflecting on what happened at the select committee, and passing legislation that reflects those outcomes. Obviously, in the case of the 2008 Act, as others have said\u2014and Lianne Dalziel and Annette King have made this point\u2014that did not happen. The process, as Annette King outlined in her case, was a very substantial process. There was a 2-year consultation period, and then the track through the House after the select committee hearing went wrong. It went wrong; it accidentally omitted words that needed to be there. It was a drafting error. So let us not use that to try to create a much broader debate. If we want to do that, then we should be raising the debate properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EClause 5 makes it clear that the sections \u201Csubstituted by section 6 of this Act apply, and must be taken to have applied at all times after the close of 30 September 2008, to all identifying particulars obtained under the principal Act after the commencement, on 1 October 2008, of that Act \u2026\u201D. This is the retrospective part, and, again, I understand why people get nervous about retrospective legislation. I doubt that there are too many of us in this Chamber who do not see why it is problematic. But in this particular case it is necessary to ensure that our police are able to do the job they are meant to be doing and are able to identify youth offenders. In my opinion, identifying youth offenders and ensuring that they are dealt with appropriately is better than not identifying them and finding them much further down the track, when they are much more involved in criminal activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002274016a6b2823469a99caff871b31ba91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274016a6b2823469a99caff871b31ba91\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill is clearly about the purpose of the legislation, and is the heart of the proposed Act. Part 1 states that it seeks to amend the principal Act, particularly in relation to the issue of the storage of youth identifying particulars. I think it is worth reflecting just for a moment on exactly what those are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis morning we heard reference to fingerprints. In fact, youth identifying particulars include names, addresses, dates of birth, photographs, visual images\u2014presumably footage from cameras, cellphones, or whatever it might be\u2014fingerprints, palm prints, and footprints. Potentially, quite an extensive body of information is being retained in these instances for young people who have been through a Youth Court process. We are told\u2014in fact, we are assured\u2014that the issue has been corrected, and again we can assume, in the absence of any information, that the youth identifying particulars that were retained post-2008 were destroyed perhaps 8 or 10 months ago, presumably in October 2010 when this issue came to light.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EOne wonders whether there has been an explosion of youth offending since that time. Have we seen the unfortunate repercussions that we are told would follow from the inability of the police to retain this information, these youth identifying particulars? We now have nearly a year\u2019s worth of evidence to inform us whether there is actually a real problem or whether a problem has been created. I think it is reasonable to suggest that we should have a proper process involving a select committee, involving some time for consideration, and involving external agencies with expertise in youth offending, in youth law, and indeed in ways to bring youth back on to a proper footing and leave criminal offending behind. We have that body of information available to us, and I think it is worth considering that before we charge on and pass this legislation a couple of hours after many of us in this Chamber were blessed with its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe have heard that the purpose of the bill is necessary, and that we need to restore the police\u2019s ability to store information, because it will somehow enable us to intervene more readily and at an earlier stage in dealing with youth offenders\u2014in particular, with repeat offenders. There is somehow an assumption that having this information to hand will enable us to more readily steer youth on to a better path. I think that is a fairly dubious proposition. Our young people\u2014indeed, our young offenders\u2014might be misguided, but they would not have to watch too many television programmes to know how to avoid leaving behind fingerprints and getting themselves on cameras. I do think there is a considerable overstatement of the value of retaining this information, in terms of enabling us to intervene at an earlier stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI absolutely take the point, though; many times in this House I have advocated in different contexts that we need to intervene at the earliest opportunity. Unfortunately, a lot of the policy in relation to justice and corrections that we have seen passed in the last 12 months or so is steering us in quite the opposite direction. We are not dealing at an early stage with youth offending, and we are not giving them the necessary treatment; we are simply resorting to prisons more and more routinely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe have heard the proposition that we need to consider the broader issues that underpin the purpose of this bill, which is to amend section 34 of the Policing Act. I think that is the key section. To be fair, having read that section just this morning, I can understand that it is clear and easy to see how the issue could have been overlooked. The section simply states\u2014I will paraphrase\u2014that the decision from Crown Law turns on the definition of the word \u201Cconviction\u201D. Obviously, the legal definition of that word is such that the police were in error when they were retaining information relating to young people, because technically it was not a conviction coming through the Youth Court unless it triggered section 283(o) of the Act, or the penalty applied was involving direction to the District Court. So there is clear evidence\u2014or it can be reasonably said\u2014that this issue was overlooked, that there was no analysis, and that nobody at the time picked up the fact that the simple declaration of that word \u201Cconviction\u201D was actually going to put in error the police\u2019s assumptions that they could continue to gather that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt is perhaps pre-empting a later part of this bill and a later clause, but I think that under the purpose clause we can entertain the slightly broader issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2a9728547554891a1f13a5f338a75d3\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af44989513f34dbe9ae3a4e0a1338863\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002268ffcc81a0ec4194b1c80511c78319f2\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets\u2014Legislative and Regulatory Improvements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002272078da811cf47358ff5e42c20b38a76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272078da811cf47358ff5e42c20b38a76\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: What legislative and regulatory steps has he taken to help restore investor confidence in the financial markets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00227bffe24428c04025b9c7d493757508c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bffe24428c04025b9c7d493757508c8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think it is going too far to say that there has been a substantial overhaul of the regulation of the financial sector in order to help to restore investor confidence. This includes establishing the Financial Markets Authority, implementing the last Government\u2019s financial adviser regime, regulating auditors, ensuring trustees and statutory supervisors are licensed, introducing prudential regulation of non-bank deposit takers, introducing finance company moratorium requirements, and requiring financial service providers to be registered and to belong to a dispute resolution scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f08515fbd1e4a6ba6ec5ed0e19f1118\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any plans for further reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a5ba91b99794160a344ff87378d66a6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Last week I released the exposure draft of the Financial Markets Conduct Bill, which is a long-overdue rewrite of our 33-year-old securities law. [Interruption] I am sorry about that. Following consultation on the exposure draft, I intend to introduce a bill into the House before the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dfdb3e325fe461cac87b964bbb6ed71\u0022\u003EWelfare Reforms\u2014Payment Card Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee077c8e322d4a9f9a49f865e46d95a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee077c8e322d4a9f9a49f865e46d95a2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her reported statement that it would be pre-emptive to rule anything out because the Government was still working its way through extensive recommendations by the Welfare Working Group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecca642762bc46aa964ba0840fec161b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecca642762bc46aa964ba0840fec161b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The extremely popular announcement made by the Prime Minister last weekend was the first response to the Welfare Working Group report. Over the next few months we intend to make clear to the public the direction that welfare reform will take if National has the privilege of leading New Zealand after the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ebac79e37e47e1a0241169cd9533a7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Who is right: the Minister, who ruled out in March a card that would control the purchase choices of beneficiaries; the Prime Minister, who ruled it in at the weekend; the Minister, who said yesterday the card was only for 16 and 17-year-olds, and 18-year-old sole parents, because they are a special cohort; the Minister, who said today she would not rule out an extension of the card to more beneficiaries; or the Prime Minister, who said there is little interest in extending the payment card to other beneficiaries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ed15c09413499ab49fafa1995670c4\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As I have been quite clear on, my response to that correspondence was on the basis of a letter from one correspondent, which was on something very, very different from the payment cards that we announced last Sunday\u2014incredibly different from that. Our Ministers are working their way through a range of options. The payment cards will work for those 16 and 17-year-olds, and 18-year-old teen parents. I think they will be really valuable for them in helping them to manage themselves and their money, and, in the case of teen parents, will see their children being better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08984b9a6a64f76ad09c092c1a91ffa\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What did she mean when she said on Radio New Zealand this morning that there is a difference between a credit card on to which whole or part of a benefit is loaded and which restricts the purchase of alcohol and cigarettes, and a payment card on to which the whole or part of a benefit is loaded and which restricts the purchase of alcohol and cigarettes, or are they the same?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc10e61adee04148a65532bff7f6d329\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member has not quoted me correctly from this morning. The credit card that was being suggested by the correspondent was incredibly different from the payment card for the 16, 17, and 18-year-olds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d3aa01fab543a7856f15a0ed236277\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her comment that extending the payment card to other beneficiaries cannot be ruled out, what work have the Government and her officials undertaken on the cost and the workability of such a card?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022826b14ebd1864f35a293312b1f82cf69\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said previously, Ministers are working their way through the recommendations and will be making announcements in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699193628aff4dcdba44eba752e7c654\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: How much of a young person\u2019s benefit will be loaded on to the payment card, where will they be able to use it\u2014for example, a farmers market\u2014will it be available to all retailers, will retailers need to make changes to their systems, and how much will that cost them, bearing in mind that it could affect businesses from Kait\u0101ia to Invercargill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e3822ac00648a38135cd899d724fa8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. Around that stuff, we have already introduced the cards for hardship assistance. What used to happen under Labour was that a letter was handwritten and then taken along to a supermarket that the beneficiary had to identify. There was only one place they could shop at, and that was very limiting. We have opened up those cards to, for example, The Mad Butcher and fresh fruit and vegetable shops in the area. Some retail outlets have come on board with it, like Farmers, Glassons, and The Warehouse. We are looking at other retailers that might like to get on board with it. It will give people more choice, and it will work fairly well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c8af7d41af434abfd287fb818a62ec\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she say yesterday that the purchase of alcohol and cigarettes by young beneficiaries is a side issue, when the Prime Minister made a major feature of it in his announcement at the weekend, bringing loud cheers and whistling from the party faithful?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226483b3be336c462982863887b292dde7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister mentioned the restriction of cigarettes and alcohol once, and he mentioned the word \u201Csupport\u201D more than 25 times. So, actually, support, and wrapping that around young people, is the main issue, and one that we are proud to be fronting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b12f4784ef14aedbc292f7c6c537249\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Did she advise the Prime Minister, before he made the announcement about restricting 16 and 17-year-old beneficiaries from purchasing alcohol and cigarettes, that that is already restricted by law, and it is illegal to sell these to them; if so, did she suggest that a hard line could be taken on those who illegally sell to minors, rather than blaming the young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b04567343254047ba41ddb6d8aa549d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The restriction of cigarettes and alcohol is also extended to those who are 18 years old who are teen parents as well, through the payment card. I think what the member has not picked up is that they will be getting an in-hand allowance as well. If they really wanted to, they could purchase whatever they liked with that. So the issue is just about what the payment card restricts; it is exactly the point that it is about the payment card, not the in-hand allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225666f266f4e64435b2718e81bdb83015\u0022\u003ERoading, Rural\u2014Improvements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022d91cfffcf79348a097391ea2124382c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d91cfffcf79348a097391ea2124382c3\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Ka aha ia ki te whakapaipai ake i te \u0101hua o ng\u0101 rori i te tuawhenua, he hapori M\u0101ori nei te nuinga o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata ki reira, \u0101, e kiia nei e \u0113tahi, he p\u0113r\u0101 aua rori ki ng\u0101 mea o ng\u0101 ao p\u014Dhara rawa atu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What will he do to improve the conditions of roads in rural, predominately M\u0101ori communities, some of which have been described as of third world status?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2100760dcc54273b0cb510409a76030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2100760dcc54273b0cb510409a76030\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Associate Minister of Transport) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Transport: This Government is spending over $1.5 billion on State highway maintenance and renewals in the current 3-year funding period\u2014more than has ever been spent before. Much of this is going into rural areas. An example is that 1.1 percent of all kilometres travelled in New Zealand happens in Gisborne, and in return we spend 2.7 percent of the road maintenance budget there. So we think we have the mix about right. More, of course, could always be done, so to complement this spending on maintenance and renewals, last month the Government launched the Road Maintenance Task Force to improve value for money in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437771d867324d77989bec93e6821112\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with N\u0101 Raih\u0101nia, the M\u0101ori Party candidate for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, in his characterisation of several of the roads on the East Coast as \u201Cshocking\u201D, \u201Cextreme\u201D, and \u201Cdangerous\u201D; and will the Minister take up the offer from Mr Raihania, the mayor of Gisborne, and the chair of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Porou to see the roads in person, as the Minister did recently with the mayor, the chief executive, and councillors of the Far North District Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f41bcd4a12c84c0abbd3516ff1d6270b\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree with those statements. What I can say is that the Government is investing millions of dollars in the Maraenui Hill deviation, which is currently under way in pretty difficult terrain. Of course, the member will know that last year significant investment was made in the Busby Hill deviation, which is making a huge amount of difference for the Gisborne region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfa12735cf74707ac5eff7eeb81744b\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Can he advise where the East Coast roads from Gisborne to Ruat\u014Dria, or the roads from Ruat\u014Dria to \u014Cp\u014Dtiki and Te Waiariki, are sitting in terms of priority over the next 10 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c18c53b025443d93a8b891fe11eb82\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The areas that the member has just raised fall within those two deviation areas, and we are already addressing that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af93a99414fb41289a01a6943d0bd195\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Mehemea e rite ana w\u0113nei moni, p\u0113hea ng\u0101 whakaaro o te Minita ki te reo whakah\u0101wea mai i a Lawrence Yule, he koretake ng\u0101 moni hei whakatikatika i ng\u0101 rori ki tuawhenua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[If these funds were the same, what does the Minister think about the disparaging remark by Lawrence Yule that funds for improving rural roads were hopeless?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223491c681124847daa11fc20beaf72db0\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That member should be well aware that we have increased the renewals in the State highway budget from what was invested previously by the Labour Government. We have increased them from $561 million to $633 million. Also, maintenance and operation of State highways has increased from $809 million to $897 million. There is significant investment there, and I tend to disagree with Mr Yule\u2019s comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8486cab85364e1d9fe83e8217ff002b\u0022\u003EYouth Unemployment\u2014Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba88b1aa1fd848af8e59ba42bbf3968a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba88b1aa1fd848af8e59ba42bbf3968a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his answer to Oral Question No 1 yesterday in relation to unemployed 15 to 19-year-olds, \u201CIf we look at the household labour force survey, we see that there are 26,700 people in the 15 to 19-year-old category\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00223316b1e160114e8caeab71caac246d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223316b1e160114e8caeab71caac246d12\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yesterday the Prime Minister corrected some answers he gave in oral question No. 1. Phil Goff had asked him whether he stood by his claim that 60 percent of young people not in education, employment, or training are actually at school or at university. As he has never in fact made that claim, and as the statement Mr Goff made\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c198b959ba46e98eb902b1b01f02d9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712ca588058449498371a38196cbabff\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re answering the wrong question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c5620735de4f21be6292ae8d1bbf92\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I say thank you to my colleague for helping. It was a very specific question about a number that the Prime Minister used, which is in the Hansard\u2014and, as far as we could tell, it was uncorrected later\u2014and it is a simple question: does he stand by that? It is nothing to do with anything that Mr Goff said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3b7dce3ff6485c988c2356eff11e96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5d5680db12435796413d33dc8d6326\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc48a8a35bd4927b02b26a10cae4bd7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Hon Simon Power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487bcbb93cce455597ceb99d2a24d82d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, I appreciate that. My hearing of the Minister\u2019s answer initially was that she said he corrected part of his answer, and then she went on to describe further, which actually does answer the initial part of the question that Mr Mallard had set down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c809b8aacb499bb745672b0fd085f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be possible as long as the answer that was corrected is the answer that this quote is taken from. I just want the Minister to be sure, because this quote is taken from an answer\u2014I accept absolutely the point made by the Hon Trevor Mallard\u2014and off the top of my head I cannot recollect whether that was the particular answer corrected by the Prime Minister. As long as the Minister is certain that that is the answer that was corrected by the Prime Minister when leave was subsequently granted to correct the answer, then the Minister\u2019s answer is perfectly in order. But I do want her to be sure of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c168d5091b048deb8a5ff657f300566\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised that the full quote was corrected yesterday by the Prime Minister when he came back into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8a4bb1ed124cb5b415669ce0a427d8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that he has corrected that, is he prepared to correct the next sentence of his answer, where he said \u201COf those, 60 percent are in school, university, training, or study of some sort, which leaves 15,000 in that category.\u201D, given that 15,000 out of 26,700 is 54 percent, not 40 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb172ab4b2ec4d4e9d9f7f94a5d02aa7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This gets to the crux of the problem, where the Opposition is talking at times about the unemployment rate, and at other times about the number of young people not in education, employment, or training, and that is why the Prime Minister needed to correct his answer yesterday. The question is whether we are talking about the unemployment rate or the number not in education, employment, or training. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dea940cb0f44797a7a8d12be3b2b62b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very nice explanation, but again it was not of the question that was asked. I asked whether the Prime Minister stood by 15,000 out of 26,700 being 40 percent, or whether, like most of us, he makes that 54 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e35a1712fce4b0982eea6eda6f66e69\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The quotes are taken directly from Hansard, as I understand it, and if they were corrected, the Hansard would show that. I ask the Minister to focus particularly on the supplementary question that the Hon Trevor Mallard has asked, because it did follow on exactly from this first statement that of the 26,700 15 to 19-year-olds, so many were in certain places. The question asked whether the Prime Minister still stood by that. I ask the Minister to be a little more specific in answering on behalf of the Prime Minister, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf85843193c40558cb04c0069b57b01\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I seek clarification? I need the first bit to make sure that I am clarifying that quote. I need to know whether it is the unemployment rate or the not in education, employment, or training rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee1685cb4b843598b200f97da060f61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To avoid doubt, I ask the member to repeat his question, if that is possible, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8198dd5e21c4fdca81d563d4dcc6942\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I do repeat the question, and I am giving the member the full quote again. It is the next sentence in his answer, and I quote: \u201COf those, 60 percent are in school, university, training, or study of some sort, which leaves 15,000 in that category.\u201D, given that 15,000 out of 26,700 is 54 percent, not 40 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2661c8ac96f4bda85fa5187b537e9c4\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister stands by the statement that 60 percent of 15 to 19-year-olds who are classified as unemployed in the household labour force survey are at school, university, or some form of training. Therefore, that is the answer to the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a16e8efb994a7eb00bac7212d76d47\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still believe that 15,000 out of 26,700 is 40 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271a05d2f5bd4b99a6512d4b2b7bbb1c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I would not agree with the numbers the member has just given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229994351ef7404dea96dad261410a860b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223830ffaca58f4dd0b784fef3f9904897\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did not the Minister answer it? She said that she did not agree with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db6621d4526f4a659d0c0f550dc05d74\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: She did not agree with the figures I gave. Does that mean\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9134aa0a934170b046f10ba2c83c39\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let us come back to order here. We had better not debate this. The member asked his question. He asked whether the Prime Minister still agreed with those certain figures, and I thought the Minister\u2019s answer was that she did not agree with those figures, but I might be wrong on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248cb93e4a7834a78b91307ced7d73b3e\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government consider youth unemployment rates to be a practically useful measure? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3cca344a4e7464da5c57ab1461e2b36\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, because, as I have said, a full 60 percent of 15 to 19-year-olds who are classified as unemployed in the household labour force survey are at school, university, or in some other form of training, and are therefore not a particular concern to the Government. On the other hand, a lot of the young people whom we are most concerned about are not technically unemployed, according to the household labour force survey, because they are not out there looking for work. That is why the Government prefers to focus on the \u201Cneet\u201D measure\u2014that is, young people who are not in education, employment, or training. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041ca62d08804acd8a023f14e999966e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Statistics New Zealand figures that show that 58,000 15 to 24-year-olds are not in employment, education, or training; if not, what is the correct figure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e434dc6bc11141aca274a79fbda091e0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Broadly, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd24901aeb3d4d4c90fa6e848a5c69dc\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary to the Prime Minister\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa65d23041f1442db5b1162c477a12b9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I expect members to show some courtesy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a7b629afba445a8a0ddeb1f9f909ed\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement made by the Minister for Social Development and Employment in relation to youth unemployment that \u201Cwe have seen a dramatic increase in the rate for 16 and 17-year-olds.\u201D; if so, does he think this just confirms how disastrous Labour\u2019s abolition of youth rates has been?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225049ef1dd21c4fdfb47a440937e19083\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: For the first part, yes. For 16 and 17-year-olds, the unemployment rate has gone from 28.5 percent in June 2010 to 33.6 percent in June 2011. However, it is interesting that for 18 and 19-year-olds the figures were 20.7 percent in June 2010 and 20.7 percent in June 2011. Both figures are too high and of concern; that is why we announced the package of reforms that we did on Sunday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b0b1e9a9484b279056db0745068fed\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Who are these young people who are not in education, employment, or training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad300441fd9f48df900be1c469124ee2\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister talked in detail about the 16 and 17-year-olds who are not in education, employment, or training in his policy speech at the weekend. That leaves 18 to 24-year-olds. Of the 50,000 18 to 24-year-olds who are not in education, employment, or training\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f92edff31849f5b23a2a260fc08a9f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: 58,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225145f05eb3374e71a8ac103dfad9c7e8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u201418 to 24-year-olds who are not in education, employment, or training, I am advised that 70 percent are on a benefit of some sort, not including the domestic purposes benefit. They will be people who are on the sickness benefit, the invalids benefit, or the unemployment benefit. That brings us back to the need for welfare reform, which is what the Government has been focusing on. How can we get a lot more of these people off benefits and into sustainable work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227024f6da884145e7be5db2017e0ba894\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he criticise Statistics New Zealand by saying its unemployment statistics are \u201Cof no value for me\u201D, when he, in fact, got the figures wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235573c7b3ead47b7ba7b4003d03d6d8c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister came in yesterday and corrected one of his answers to a question, which he is now standing by. The other answers he gave were all correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d819a09a058f44578eb658ba3cc44869\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was very direct as to why he criticised Statistics New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090573e5e24d48b5843010a251b1143c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But the member went on to say: \u201Cwhen he got his figures wrong\u201D. The Minister, in answering the question on behalf of the Prime Minister, picked up on that statement included in the question and refuted it, which Ministers are allowed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221994f55ea2fa4f4293e5aa5dc3e3c1f5\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards, Targets\u2014Cancer Radiation Treatment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002252e2c2ef679f4bc4a14cd83bef16f2f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252e2c2ef679f4bc4a14cd83bef16f2f3\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress are district health boards making in providing faster cancer radiation treatment for patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022843e0c38c2884179ba87b79fd7a1201b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843e0c38c2884179ba87b79fd7a1201b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Great progress. All cancer patients needing radiation treatment are now receiving it within the 4-week world gold standard for radiation treatment. I can inform the House that in the last 2\u00BD years not one patient has been sent to Australia for cancer radiation treatment. Members will recall that not so long ago patients often had to wait up to 15 or 16 weeks to begin their radiation treatment, and many had to travel to Australia. Our doctors, nurses, and community cancer workers have achieved this through improved productivity, the purchase of 10 new linear accelerators, and more staff being provided in our cancer centres. They are doing a great job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c7f7fd58004b5ab02fec2ee01aff22\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What other progress can the Minister report on better cancer treatment for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e073ff10cc024e9d8301c65e21a4cdaa\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is working very hard to improve cancer services for patients. Seven hundred and fifty women have had access to Herceptin treatment, which they would not have got 3 years ago. Our bowel cancer screening programme will begin shortly in the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board, and it involves 60,000 people. That is a first for New Zealand. We have also invested more in cancer medicines to treat leukaemia, Hodgkin\u2019s disease, lymphoma, bowel cancer, lung cancer, pancreatic cancer, skin cancer, and prostate cancer. There are still challenges before us, but I think our clinicians are making a lot of progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022182459045806424d95f01da2d0bdc2ae\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228f72faccee694724814605f45c3bd3e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f72faccee694724814605f45c3bd3e8\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Are district health boards being funded sufficiently to maintain the level of services they provided in 2010/11?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220eae04570bf5490c829338d1770c6db3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eae04570bf5490c829338d1770c6db3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E District health boards are being funded with the expectation of providing more overall services, particularly in areas of patient priorities like more surgery, faster cancer treatment, more children immunised, and faster emergency departments. District health boards make decisions within their increased budgets, and, as the member is well aware, the Government has always said that we expect that some programmes will be slowed, scaled, or stopped. All money saved in health stays in health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf41a519c434b479297b8d6858ba748\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Was the increase in funding in dollar terms for district health boards in the 2011-12 Budget sufficient to meet the cost of inflation and population growth faced by district health boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220711ce0084cd4fd89052b4e05a579df2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: As I have told the member previously, we cannot actually give a firm answer to that at present, because additional funds will flow to district health boards during the financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216332f57edf54341ad3cb8fea6cb97be\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Was Stuart Bramhall, a recently retired senior psychiatrist at Taranaki Base Hospital, correct when she told the Taranaki Daily News that before her retirement, a lack of funding meant her patients \u201Ccouldn\u2019t be properly cared for\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258dbe77276664cd188f33b6f845f41db\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the information that I have. What I do know is that the Taranaki District Health Board has had an increase of $29 million over the last 3 years, and I think the feedback I am getting from Taranaki is that the services have really improved there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229053a5f8dac34d48a69dfeded1e3eef0\u0022\u003EHilary Calvert\u003C/span\u003E: Given that much of the increased health spending between 2001 and 2006 was eroded by productivity losses of 15 percent for doctors and 11 percent for nurses, does he agree that simply throwing money at hospitals is not the answer; if so, what concrete evidence can he provide for improved hospital productivity since he became Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dedfa3fa08384c0f85e4cde6a68ab703\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Throwing more money at the health service is not the answer. Actually, the Labour Government doubled the health budget in its 9 years and got fewer operations, so we know that is not the case. We have put in an additional $1.5 billion of new money into health over the last 3 years, but I think if one looks at the record numbers of elective surgeries, the much-faster cancer radiation treatment, faster emergency departments, and better preventive health, then one can see the better productivity that New Zealanders have been seeking. Frankly, we could not have achieved that without improved productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a26e174bb94087816b16fac20abfb6\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Was Stuart Bramhall, a recently retired senior psychiatrist at Taranaki Base Hospital, lying when she told the Taranaki Daily News that before her retirement, lack of funding meant patients \u201Ccouldn\u2019t be properly cared for\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1aa3d9ab114eb8b24cce96bac95005\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That really is a silly a question. I am sure Dr Bramhall believes what she told the paper. What I can say is that we have put an additional $29 million into the Taranaki District Health Board, and during that time, we have seen quite a significant improvement in the number of staff working there. For example, we have many more nurses working there than we had at that hospital 2\u00BD years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d013595f740d41dd85af5d5845b6bf09\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227af13c9c21d64b12bce61fd0ab17f818\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Grant Robertson. [Interruption] A point of order has been called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de80a5c30a647f1bccc755210682403\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that it was not a question that the Minister liked, but it was a direct question asking whether the clinician mentioned was lying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b2d3620adc4e60b4005b4de7f631f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. The member knows that he cannot expect a Minister to say yes or no about whether someone is lying. The Minister explained why he disagrees with that clinician, and the Minister is perfectly at liberty to explain why he disagrees with the clinician.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281345ed14a5645759ef910248b0d2019\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable for nursing staff at Taranaki Base Hospital to regularly double-shift and not to have a complete 9-hour break between shifts, as was reported in the Taranaki Daily News story on Monday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e2d083636749c6906e566f16bd8e9e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Taranaki District Health Board has had increased funding of $29 million over the last 3 years, and it has more nurses working there than 2\u00BD years ago. How the district health board manages its services, and the way staff move around the hospital to meet those demands, is the responsibility of the district health board. What I can assure the member is that this Government has given the district health board quite a lot of extra money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270d0426a3ce94f63ba445830cbed941b\u0022\u003EMine Safety, Inspection\u2014High Hazards Unit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022 data-id=\u002208e1d5202d664917b409970662b738c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208e1d5202d664917b409970662b738c5\u0022\u003EKEVIN HAGUE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: When will the new chief inspector for mining and additional inspectors in the planned High Hazards Unit become operational?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00226d2b3034c8e94b22a711e265afb169ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d2b3034c8e94b22a711e265afb169ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Labour: As soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13da58ea5a442a0b83169a45c1c5c54\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister of Labour received about why her department did not attempt to replace the mines inspector who retired in 2009\u2014noting that that left just two mines inspectors, currently down to one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba6bc81ce7434bd894cfe38e9785a96c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can advise that the Department of Labour has recruited an inspector to fill a recent vacancy, and it will begin immediately to recruit all the other inspectors required for the High Hazards Unit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f12746b993a4a73856f4c2b48830930\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question related to the 2009 action of the department, not to attempts to recruit for that position at that time. The vacancy that the Minister\u2019s answer relates to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff739af1ae93464eb5ea829c9b63f188\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So that we make more rapid progress, I will invite the member to repeat his question. One of the reasons why I am inviting him to repeat his question is that the primary question was on notice and asked when certain things were going to happen. \u201CAs soon as possible.\u201D is not actually a very satisfactory answer. So because I was not very impressed by that answer, I will let the member repeat his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286cab3d63038452eb70445d8a6cca1ab\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What advice has she received about why her department did not attempt to replace the mines inspector who retired in 2009?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223673706089104194b10550772471b7a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of what advice the Minister received about how long it took to replace an inspector, but I am advised that the Department of Labour has recruited an inspector to fill a vacancy. The other inspectors will be recruited as quickly as possible. It is important that we have inspectors with the necessary experience and skill, and that requires these people being sought both locally and internationally. It is therefore not possible to put a date on when that recruitment process will be completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfadbf988e246a88fbc8180ad4602bc\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that some members of the Department of Labour\u2019s Mining Steering Group argued against increasing the number of mines inspectors prior to the Pike River disaster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d4128827714150b42d230824589e0f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I am answering this on behalf of the Minister of Labour, I am not aware that any officials criticised the intention to increase the inspectorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a521850f254856a15c978906ecc4b5\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not sure that I understood the Minister\u2019s response: as he was answering on behalf of the Minister of Labour, he would not be able to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702e50fe4a8a47edbc945d0e35fe4378\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is answering on behalf of another Minister, and I think his answer was a perfectly fair answer on this occasion. He was not aware of that matter, because he was answering on behalf of another Minister; he was unaware whether there had been any pressure from any officials not to make such appointments. I think he was being very honest with the House. He was saying he did not have absolute information, but was unaware of any such pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274030a2c3b514621917d0e1a31228652\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fully accept that. Given that situation, I seek your guidance as to whether it would be reasonable to seek an assurance from the Minister that an answer to that question is given, in fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e12d7b255834ad98a172934da4dc7b4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has further supplementary questions, I think, to pursue the matter, and can ask exactly that kind of thing\u2014whether the matter can be checked out further and an answer provided to the member in writing. I mean, that is a perfectly fair supplementary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b711d2156134073b625bf52c826d365\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: What powers will the new chief mines inspector have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e5be32cf8d4cd4b0397a7066aeec3d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In principle, the chief mines inspector, like the other inspectors, will have the right and the powers to make sure that all our mines operate as safely as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b101d34f62c2410fb1cc1e75d661cac1\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The answer that has just been given describes the function of the new position but not the powers, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c58d533d7c840f7921094af44c0f791\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member\u2019s intentions on this subject matter are genuine, as everybody\u2019s are, but using the point of order system to simply relitigate every answer given by the Minister cannot be what the Standing Orders were designed for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9a5119902041d686caf8391500cedd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a perfectly fair point. When Ministers who are being questioned keep evading answers, I will certainly pull them up. The member cannot use a point of order to question every answer, unless the Minister is clearly trying to avoid answering. If that was happening, I would have no problem, but I think the Minister is doing his best, answering on behalf of another Minister, to give the House reasonable answers. That is why I think the point made by the Hon Simon Power is reasonable on this occasion\u2014and often are reasonable, I should say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4848c793773436a9b65402469ef417c\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Has she sought any advice from the Department of Labour regarding mining companies currently refusing to put in extra exits from their underground mines, as described in the evidence from the Department of Labour\u2019s Michael Firman during the royal commission hearings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ac527fb47a43f68bc2cf71120676cf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I am answering this question on behalf of the Minister of Labour, I cannot advise the House today whether the Minister has sought further advice on the matter of exits from mines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221162e939ccb34423b71e5b8737b8c3e4\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Will she consider amending the law so that situations do not arise whereby mining companies can refuse safety recommendations from the Department of Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229648eedb09c94290bcb329a185e5ca7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am answering the question on behalf of the Minister; that is certainly something she needs to answer, and the member is welcome to put it down as a question. If the Minister of Labour asked for my advice, it would be that she should wait until the royal commission of inquiry has completed its findings before making that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b7c85f4fa24cbeb0e71fff15b60618\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to the member, but I think we are now getting into a difficult position whereby a Minister has not been briefed, but, worse than that, he is now saying what he, as a Cabinet colleague, would brief the Minister to do. There is no way he can do that. He might want to say: \u201CMy colleague the Minister of Agriculture has been briefing me.\u201D I think the problem we have, and it is relatively unusual, is that the Minister does not appear to have the normal briefing notes that go with supplementary questions. All of these questions are ones that any Minister taking this question would have expected today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268aa78c3255741f1afaf895a1af932ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the member\u2019s point of order but, in fact, I do not think there is anything in the Standing Orders that prevents a Minister from including in his answer what the Minister did then. The primary question asked: \u201CWhen will the new chief inspector for mining and additional inspectors in the planned High Hazards Unit become operational?\u201D. The supplementary questions have moved a fair way from that primary question. I am not surprised that a Minister answering on behalf of another Minister would not have all the specific information. I accept that the member is asking in absolute good faith, but I think one has to accept that on a day like this when the Minister could not be present we cannot expect the Minister answering on her behalf to have all that material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281e8ca24-8b1d-4558-9ef9-c9418df2b3c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b6a51b8f4d43f9840b3906cd350a74\u0022\u003EKevin Hague\u003C/span\u003E: Why, given that it is possible, after all, to take action to improve mine safety before the royal commission reports, is the Government not also taking other actions that we know would improve underground mine safety, like reinstating check inspectors, a return to mandatory standards for underground mining, and implementation of the other recommendations from the Department of Labour\u2019s review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f7458279494bd6999fbbf43569ad98\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In calling the Minister to answer that supplementary question I have to acknowledge that it is a fair way from the primary question. The Minister is welcome to do his best with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e69b3d9f1f74cd8822ad74a916b59df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Following the tragedy, the Government instituted an independent operational review, and the recommendation from that review was an increase in the number of inspectors. The Government has acted accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b5b5bac1c24e43beda249b01f6e1cc\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Will the High Hazards Unit now be able to offer advice to miners and mine companies, or does her department, the Department of Labour, still consider that that exposes it to issues of legal liability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa270a0532e04d1795c99cd9b0670aa5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It would be my expectation that, indeed, the inspectors could give advice to mining companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b7a725315e4e3db5a200aae4c9a8f5\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Will the new High Hazards Unit be resourced to visit and inspect underground mines every month, or does she consider this level of monitoring too high, and appropriate only for Chinese underground mines, where this standard applies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022936cb5cd50cc4284bbd9038d60657e9d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has not had any advice on how often the inspectors will be able to visit individual mines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5916af49e9747edbe9d579410f89553\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill\u2014Views of Chief Justice and Chief District Court Judge\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00226df692076550415e83c81a5e9929b312\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E8. Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226df692076550415e83c81a5e9929b312\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he agree with the Chief Justice that the scheme for disclosure by the defence in criminal cases contained in the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill is \u201Cinconsistent with the defendant\u2019s right to have the prosecution prove its case beyond reasonable doubt\u201D and with the late Chief District Court Judge that punishment at sentencing for procedural non-compliance \u201Cis conceptually incoherent and therefore arbitrary\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00222b5d6e21f6d84213b98009281a5382d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b5d6e21f6d84213b98009281a5382d0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E No. The second part of the member\u2019s question is mistaken, because the ability to draw an adverse inference from failure to identify issues in dispute would occur at trial, not at sentencing. Having cleared that up, my answer to that part of the question is also no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b234ae5926194f14816a85cd7e1483c0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister know whether his colleague the Attorney-General shares the concerns expressed by the judiciary about the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224242a87735764f6ba8f208f70ae736de\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: My memory\u2014and I stand to be corrected\u2014is that the Attorney-General gave the bill a clear vet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218383688ad0b4bc2984955877a025278\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Does he know that the New Zealand Law Society, the New Zealand Bar Association, and the Criminal Bar Association continue to oppose key elements of the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022307726fb79334126bc57200ad06a6905\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware that two of those entities continue to have concerns. I have met regularly with the Law Society throughout the course of the legislation\u2019s passage. The bill is the result of a decade of consultation with the judiciary and the legal profession, three Law Commission reports, 16 discussion documents, and a draft bill plan, which led to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c213de040acf4b92b945f0c2760d6bde\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Does he intend to continue to press for the enactment of the bill in light of the continuing opposition just to elements of it from the legal profession and the judiciary; if so, why would he do that, when there is an opportunity to pass it with the agreement of everyone in the House with those bits omitted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a995d476c24b29ba65cca9bd0f57f3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the first part of the member\u2019s question, yes; in response to the second part of the question, I think the member will acknowledge that when a bill comes back from a select committee, I would like to regard myself as having a reasonably open mind as to how matters can proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d22174a8f347088471fa5b6915f348\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table letters, one dated 12 August 2011 from the New Zealand Bar Association, one dated 15 August 2011 from the Criminal Bar Association, and one from the New Zealand Law Society dated 8 August 2011, all of them concerned about elements of that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4680542f80449af9d32aa46b646c5ac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And these are not letters to a select committee; these are letters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2aa0b4420b4baab82290c8e04ecf98\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc6108276d28452abf76daed99edc2f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d43f028d9c584b2abe5ad1a6c7424a3d\u0022\u003EParents, Teenage\u2014Government Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca5d5bf5d24d48868e94a344bfaf0b1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca5d5bf5d24d48868e94a344bfaf0b1c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the Government doing to help teen parents get ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002292effc253470437eb64a8db1fd1ddd9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292effc253470437eb64a8db1fd1ddd9a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We make no apologies for actually targeting our resources to this vulnerable group, teen parents, who desperately need our help. It is a shocking fact that until this Government no one even bothered to count them, let alone do anything for them. The welfare system has been failing them and their children, and this Government makes no apology for resetting the system in order to give them a helping hand and even a dose of tough love.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bcd8affe4fa44ab807cdbd0919f90b6\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on the reliability of the household labour force survey statistics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224015b8f90dd44ca983eb7ea159ee72cf\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I actually have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfc58fc6e021445d9057a17e5d638f37\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What does the matter of the household labour force survey statistics have to do with the primary question? That is surely out of order by being well wide of the mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b98ffe04f2941a79aa0b174111df25a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Several questions throughout the week have had the household labour force survey as the basis of the question. This is just a continuation of that questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ec80275bb244e4e8a04ae5b65fbb6e3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Any attempt to link empirical and statistical evidence to questions such as how we are helping a particular group to get ahead must surely assist the House in its quest for information on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ef0ec1c536486f9473dedb1703cbad\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: There is no relevance in this particular question to what has happened in the preceding week. That is the assertion of the Hon Tau Henare. Those questions have been and gone. Had the member wished to raise matters of statistics and of the household labour force survey, it should have been done in the primary question. Secondly, it would have been fair enough for the member to raise a matter about household labour force survey statistics if they had been referred to by the Minister in her reply to the primary question, but the Minister made no reference to the matter. There is absolutely no linkage between the two, whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d144ef96d0ea4f049a2bc74e0d728884\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not usually rule a question out unless it is perceived that it is unreasonable to put such a question to the Minister. I note that questions asked today\u2014not just those asked last week\u2014linked exactly these two issues. I seem to remember that one particular question\u2014question No. 4 from the member\u2019s own party\u2014referred to unemployed young people aged 15 to 19 years, and then pursued issues to do with the household labour force survey. It would seem that the Hon Simon Power\u2019s point is reasonably well made that in the interests of the House obtaining useful information, for me to rule the question out would be perhaps a little unfair. If it were not possible for the Minister to answer the question, then I think the member would be on pretty reasonable grounds. But I think it would be unreasonable for me to rule it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea01ae1997d4c709e8a01dea8d6dd68\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just draw your attention to the question asked by the Hon Trevor Mallard, which made specific mention of the matter of statistics on 15 to 19-year-olds, etc., and therefore it was legitimate. I just say we should be fair about this. If you are going to be very generous\u2014as you appear to be in this particular case\u2014about allowing a question from the Hon Tau Henare with little tangible connection to the primary question other than that the matter has been referred to, then you will have to allow such a question from the Opposition. It will not, therefore, be acceptable for the Minister to say there is no connection to the question. If this question is allowed under this process, then it will substantially widen the scope of questions to Ministers from members of the Opposition in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a90bc9cc8b744244a50933341fba319b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member may reflect on the fact that in question No. 7 today there were issues about how closely related the primary question and supplementary questions were. The member raises a good point, and if there were no connection at all, I would say the member is absolutely right that the question should be ruled out. But given the flow of questions in the House over this issue\u2014this matter has been one of the key issues in question time over the last couple of days\u2014it would seem to me to be unreasonable for me to be too pedantic about it. The member is right that, strictly, I could be pedantic and say the primary question and the supplementary question are not sufficiently closely related, but then I would be ignoring the flow of question time and the intention of question time to make sure that the House obtains useful information. There has to be a link, and I believe that the link on this occasion has been well established over the last couple of days. But I hear what the Hon Rick Barker is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5a173c16df49ca952f2c3b0937fe40\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I have seen a report on statistics relating to the household labour force survey. In fact, I have a report that says David Benson-Pope has put himself at odds with former Minister Steve Maharey about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f0e8abe5fd40a6a3cbddfa8afb489b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not allow a question like that to be used to slag off former members or other members of this House\u2014there is no way in the world. The reason for allowing the question was to see whether valuable information for the House would emerge in relation to the debate about the household labour force survey, young teen parents, and 15 to 19-year-old unemployed people. If it is to be used just to slag off another member, I am afraid that is it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d27590d8be6541b2985a55aeba646a12\u0022\u003EEarthquakes, Canterbury\u2014Letters of Offer on Red Zone Properties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002256e7ac372ee344c4aed4af5b7d415da1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256e7ac372ee344c4aed4af5b7d415da1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery: How many letters of offer from the Crown will be sent to insured residential red zone property owners this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4e4cb6ed2874214bb58a0d121b40e78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4e4cb6ed2874214bb58a0d121b40e78\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Associate Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery: Those who had correctly supplied information will begin receiving letters of offer by the end of this week. An estimated just over 3,000 letters of offer will be sent out in this first tranche.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf3d138ac7e4ac4bda6c196ef7013c9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority arranged for a briefing for Canterbury lawyers this evening ahead of the offer going out, yet no such briefing is being made available to the people who will be receiving the offer, meaning they will have to pay to see a lawyer, which the Government will subsidise only if one of the offers is accepted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baef106603714e85b6f6f8ef2efee4d9\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that due to the nature of the offers being made there are variations from a standard sale and purchase agreement. What is happening is two documents are going out: one in plain English to the homeowner explaining in general terms what the offer will be, and another to the Law Society to explain to the lawyers how the legal aspects of it will work. That means that when the homeowners have read the plain English and decided whether they want to take the package, they will need to get some legal advice with regards to the offer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec4586829074db484dd25bcbee5500b\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Only if they get to accept it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850f0a9b5b93476e89ecdc76647ea155\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Only if they accept it? Of course it is only if they accept it. That is a stupid interjection. Only if they accept it? Of course they would not do it if they did not accept it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3f2150e4c44cbf854e54312793d09d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table these six documents that I was able to download from the New Zealand Law Society website last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671cffbdc84d46cc8d0df8851e9857fa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: These documents are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d894e1614c4425598bb75fc90ff797d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: These documents relate to the Crown acquisition of insured residential red zone properties. None of this information is being made available to people who live in those properties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289152a0ff4f4454990cd466c231bd77a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is\u2014[Interruption] A point of order is being dealt with. Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba398eeaab648a6a0f7d3233beca128\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: How is it acceptable that people will not know what their insurer is prepared to offer them to settle the claim, or, indeed, what the Earthquake Commission\u2019s cash settlement might be if the land settlement price under the Earthquake Commission\u2019s arrangement is greater than the purchase price for the land-only option? How is it acceptable that an offer will go out from the Government before any of that information is known to the person receiving the offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61ba5997974443e96e883a3a3160149\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Let us get some facts on the table. Approximately 4,500 residential properties with insurance are located in the red zone. To date, 3,500 of those people have responded to the offer, which means about an 80 percent uptake. I have to say to the member that the individual cases for each individual specific\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aba43853efe4f7c8a7da320dee0e940\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week I tabled the letter. There has been no response to the offer. The offer has not gone out yet. The Minister just said that 3,500 people have responded to the offer. This is what is frustrating to people in the red zone. They have signed a consent form only to receive the offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b25b05240264f39b3caa6d47f224a38\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is debating the issue. I sense her frustration, because it sounds like different things are being talked about here. To overcome this problem I invite the member to repeat the question\u2014because I accept the question is a serious question and there is a genuine public interest\u2014just to make sure the Minister is answering exactly the issue the member is raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d977e1578e4da2816aa4ac323ab895\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not have that question written down, so it may not be exactly word for word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022746576baf35a45d5b9d9a08a7f6cfc50\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the best the member can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f4a05d16aa46a9b5704ee37141cf54\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: How can it be acceptable for the Government to send the offer that is being sent tomorrow to people who do not have the information from their insurers as to how much they would cash-settle the building and contents part of the offer, and when they do not know whether the Earthquake Commission land settlement is greater than the purchase price if they accept just the land offer? How can that be acceptable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678d62ff2cc846ef9351c3cc1f7f45bc\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am going by advice, but the advice I have is that the offer documents that go out will lay out the process, but then people will need to get advice from their lawyers. That is why the documents that the Law Society posted on its website had the technical and legal explanations in them. Only then will the homeowners determine whether to go ahead with the package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda6645dc21541b4a257d973a4567c04\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his repeated claims that quake victims\u2019 equity in their homes will be preserved, including the following quote: \u201CI have said consistently since 4 September that it is the equity that people have in their properties that we have an obligation to protect\u201D, given that many Kaiapoi residents in the newly announced red zone\u2014announced today\u2014have calculated that accepting the Government\u2019s purchase offer will mean they are out of pocket by over $100,000 and they have no alternative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b287ca235e884a2e86739d60c0903f05\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022913b0e09cd35476caf0fd33b27b1102c\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware whether the offer document that will be sent to residential homeowners in the red zone contains details about how much the Earthquake Commission calculation for the land settlement would be if the cost exceeded the cost of repairing the land? It seems to me that if the Minister does not know the answer to that question, then there is a fundamental flaw in the Government\u2019s offer, in that not all of the information will be with homeowners when they receive the offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f958d81c0ef4c37b08cd43fbbd37607\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in answer to the principal question, those who correctly supplied information will begin to receive letters of offer by the end of this week, and the details of that offer will be in that letter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236ccf783d47847daa6fd539b2e47d4fe\u0022\u003ECommunity Groups\u2014Grants from Gaming-machine Societies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba9f98fe5dd48d2a4b089d47c145535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba9f98fe5dd48d2a4b089d47c145535\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What announcements has he made today on improving flexibility for community groups receiving grants from gaming societies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1219fb5a9f84a3fb89b08728c001a68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1219fb5a9f84a3fb89b08728c001a68\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Today I am very pleased to announce a change in regulations that means that gaming-machine societies can make multi-year grants from 15 September 2011. Up until now, the law meant that only annual grants could be made to the community. This is great news for the many sporting, cultural, and charity groups that rely on this funding. It will give them the confidence and the flexibility to focus on long-term projects for the benefit of their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38e4760db68430596eb32fd2c733104\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback was received during consultation over this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085a0dab5c7444718a84e7adfbd9f154\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Late last year the Department of Internal Affairs consulted with gaming-machine societies, problem-gambling organisations, and a variety of community, arts, culture, and sporting groups. There was strong support, with 50 out of the 56 submissions favouring the change. Overall, this reflects the Government\u2019s goal of maximising the returns to the community from the proceeds of gambling while minimising harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9d1847e3f2042c9a4ab02e43cbebdce\u0022\u003EMine Safety\u2014Inspection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9764706f6842c5aa02a471b969e7e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9764706f6842c5aa02a471b969e7e0\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does she stand by her statement about making changes to mine safety that \u201Cuntil the royal commission of inquiry makes its findings, we will wait accordingly\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002225ef68e442324048b7027d7a1f533051\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ef68e442324048b7027d7a1f533051\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Labour: Yes, but she also stands by her statement on 4 August to this House: \u201CI can confirm that we are certainly taking a close look at the resources and expertise in the department to ensure that it can carry out its role of overseeing the mining sector.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f1314fa2a04b1ab05b1593cd0b6110\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Is her announcement yesterday of a High Hazards Unit an admission that mine safety is inadequate in New Zealand; if so, why did she not take action on the 2009 Department of Labour report that called for new safety measures in underground mining, and the repeated calls from Opposition MPs, mine workers, and unions to do something about the situation in mines since the Pike River mine tragedy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1bae72099d4a5ca89d6d0631fb8ad0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The independent internal review of the department\u2019s inspectorate was ordered immediately after the Pike River tragedy. It actually commended the department\u2019s approach and the work of the inspectors, while also pointing out areas for improvement. The Government has therefore acted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222354bcb45faa4a6fb6505bff04acbe87\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: If she is prepared to act now on resourcing a new High Hazards Unit, why would she not also move to strengthen mine safety regulations so the new mines inspectors have adequate standards to enforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220481487a4f6842d0aa69f3a5bd775d81\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: She has stated categorically in this House that she will wait until the conclusions of the inquiry are known so we then know some of the causes of the tragedy, be they operational or regulatory. Then the Government will have the opportunity and will respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9afc1c0164492797f3774f9fe8a504\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: What steps, if any, will she be taking to restore mine check inspectors as another essential part of the mine safety triangle, or will that have to wait until 2013 as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45c8a64e1c84991a70258b04e438c88\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The first steps taken are the increase in the number of inspectors and chief inspectors. Further work and further involvement of these inspectors will develop as we get the findings of the royal commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff69f18a2b841219475646f9af9205a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the announcement of the set-up of the High Hazards Unit confirm that her response to me in June 2010, when she said of employers: \u201CThey are in a good position to understand the hazards arising in the workplace and are best placed to take steps to control them.\u201D, was fatally flawed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcf1b80403242e7ad38dd89e4e8b61f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. As I said in answer to an earlier question, immediately after the disaster the department ordered an independent review. We are responding to some of the recommendations of that independent review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d39b73b85f431c8f063c465fe24286\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Does the appointment of the High Hazards Unit finally now confirm the view that \u201Cthe coal industry can no longer overlook the continuing under-resourced and incompetent nature of the existing bureaucratic structure.\u201D, which was a view expressed, indeed, in 1995 by Mr Bill Brazil, a former mines inspector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5894082d3e3459a9c53b41cc911439c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it does not, but it is appropriate to point out to the House that over the 9 years of the Labour Government it made no attempt to increase the number of inspectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b87e4cc36c54a5391f8911ac93f3f12\u0022\u003EPolicing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c69b9ef5a95640d584ffac2847691eab\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000543\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221069acf0ad8c4bbf825274c8ecc67015\u0022\u003EPart 1  Purpose and application of this Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9af1a788fe34cf39e9db8dfdee79ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9af1a788fe34cf39e9db8dfdee79ed9\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Before the lunch break I was making some points about the purpose of Part 1, and I wish to continue briefly on that same line. The point has been made a number of times that there is no evidence from 2008 that the idea of amending what was then the practice was intended to be shifted\u2014that the change the police identified some 8 months ago was not intended\u2014and that is fair comment. The point has already been made elsewhere as well that equally there is no evidence that there was no such intention, and I will come back to that point in a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe general proposition agreed to is that identifying particulars should be retained in the event of a conviction, and clearly that is the practice of the District Court and, indeed, of the Youth Court, if a young person against whom a charge has been found proven is sent to the District Court for sentencing. I think we need to reflect for a while on why the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act specifically uses language other than the language of conviction. If we look at section 283 of that Act, we see there is reference to conviction in some of the higher-order responses that are possible under that section. By that I mean some of the more serious responses in the event a young person has been found guilty of some criminal offending. It is proposed that certain forfeiture of property, for example, may be applied\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755a5384123f469792ccb33d04ae3b05\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. It is increasingly difficult to hear the member, and I say to members if they want to have conversations then go out to the lobbies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0eee4d9a4a348f49cfcdbf00b267c31\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. In the context of section 283, two or three references are made to penalties that might be applied to the young person as if the young person were an adult and had been convicted of that offence by a District Court. I think we need to reflect on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAs we said earlier, the deal-breaker, the point at which the 2008 legislation fell over and created this conundrum for the police, and, indeed, for the House, rests on the definition of the word \u201Cconviction\u201D. I ask members who have been in this House for longer than I have why it was that when the legislation was being drafted, there was specific exclusion that the notion of conviction to the largest extent possible was removed from the Youth Court. I think it is a reasonable proposition that a deliberate attempt has been made to remove the language of conviction\u2014to take away that status of a convicted person, shall we say\u2014from young people. Rather, the charge can be found and an order can be made against the person. I think we need to consider why that language is so specific and why such pains were taken to take away the notion of convicting a young person of an offence, except at the very highest level, and I refer to the purely indictable offences\u2014the ones that conceivably carry something like a 10-year sentence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EClearly, there is a difference between dealing with young people and dealing with adults. An arbitrary cut-off point of 17 or 18 years has been the point of distinction, and we could contemplate that, but I think for the moment it is sufficient to acknowledge that we treat young people differently. That is an aspect of our contemporary law. It was not evidenced in the Police Act 1958, to which some reference has already been made in this debate. I think we need to acknowledge that in 1958 no clear distinction was made in law between a person and a young person. I say that willing to be corrected, but certainly on the very brief amount of research we have been able to do this morning, we have been unable to find in the earlier legislation of some 50 or more years ago distinctions in law between a person and a young person. We have moved on from that, and I think it is a good thing. Clearly, we ought not to treat children or very young people as if they have the judgmental abilities\u2014the abilities to distinguish what is sensible and a good action\u2014of an adult, just as we would not sensibly require them to meet the same standards as an adult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI think there are very sound reasons why we have changed this language. Fifty years on from 1958, we have acknowledged that young people are different. They are subject, particularly in this modern era, to very different pressures and expectations. They are growing up in a very different world from that of their peers in the 1950s and 1960s. I think we do need to seriously reflect on that when we consider this bill. Dare I say it, with the legislation passed in 2008, which this bill seeks to amend, perhaps we did the right thing by accident by excluding young children from the penalties imposed at the Youth Court and from this question of whether we retain their youth identifying particulars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIt would be helpful, I think, if the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Police, took a call and responded to some of the very good questions posed by Labour speakers earlier in relation to the history of some of this, and simply reflected on the matter of why we so carefully and deliberately avoid the notion of convicting young people. A conviction in the adult context enables police to retain the identifying particulars of an adult offender. By accident, we now have a situation where young people do not have that same penalty imposed on them. I would be very interested to hear from the Minister, and I hope she will take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ad6cd9aee79479084ae00cd79ea5dc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ad6cd9aee79479084ae00cd79ea5dc1\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a49a29e8c345cb9bcc0a83e29d9ad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a49a29e8c345cb9bcc0a83e29d9ad4\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is worthwhile teasing out particularly the Labour argument in this debate, and that is that a mistake was made and the intention of Parliament was not reflected in the final bill. Well, I would come at it from the point of view of a judge. When judges look at legislation they look, for a start, at what the law actually says. It is quite clear, from any reading of the law, as to what it says\u2014that there is an exclusion from taking identifying particulars from young people with low-level offending who have not been convicted as such but have suffered very low penalties for their disobeying of the law. Under section 283 of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989 there are Group 1 responses, up to Group 7 responses. Group 1 responses are when the Youth Court discharges the young person from proceedings without further order or penalty, and admonishes the young person. The judge looking at that would think: \u201CPerhaps, as my colleague has said, there\u2019s a distinction here between young people and old people. That is very much the modern thing, so I will read the law as it is written.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut the other thing judges do is look at the debate in Parliament, particularly at third reading speeches, but even at the whole debate. When we look at the whole debate in 2008 on the Policing Act, we can see the conclusion\u2014and in the very rushed time we have had, some people have looked through all this stuff, and they \u201Chave not located anything which indicates a specific policy position was taken on this issue.\u201D That is, the parties in this House, including the Labour-led Government at the time, did not put forward in any of the parliamentary debates any specific policy position, nor did any other party, including the Greens. I was the Green spokesperson on police during that time, and spokesperson on that bill, and there was no conception that there was any misinterpretation of that particular provision, or that there was any policy position that would lead a judge to offer any interpretation other than what the legislation actually means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EPeople say: \u201COh, well, you\u2019ve got to go back to the 1958 Act and what that meant.\u201D The 1958 Police Act was written for an entirely different time, when, as my colleague says, there was no differentiation between older and younger offenders, there was no Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, and there was no Youth Court, etc. If the Government had put out in 2008 an options paper saying that one option is that we distinguish between young people and older people, and people who have been convicted and people who have not been convicted, and if it had referred to the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act and all the rest of it; and if we asked the parties in the House which option will we take\u2014tell members the option the Government supports, and then have a debate about it\u2014then there would be some clarity. It would be quite clear what was meant by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think the fundamental misconception is that both Labour and National are defining Parliament as the Government, and that is very offensive to other parties in an MMP climate. We have never been part of the Government. We come to this debate, and to all the debates in this House, in good faith. We discuss the bills as they are, the wording as it is, and the motivations as they are put forward. There was no motivation or wording or anything whatsoever to construct the interpretation that Labour is now putting on this bill. Also, there was no explanation of how it fitted in with previous legislation, including the 1958 legislation on this issue, and to what extent that took account of the huge changes in the way we respond to youth offending now as compared with 1958. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont said it was drafting error and some words were missed out. Well, if that is the case, let us see the proof. Let us see the words that were missed out. I do not think that is the situation, but I challenge anyone in Labour to show that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022139a02212e254941a4906112c524443c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000559\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 96, Noes 13.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7a395267ffd4824b49fc7d46f96dfd2\u0022\u003EPart 2  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000561\u0022\u003EAmendment to principal Act\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022675bb0f97d1c4bd5bacb3d4de482df45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022675bb0f97d1c4bd5bacb3d4de482df45\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a moment to answer some of the queries that have been raised. For a start I will look at the Police Act 1958 and at the relevant section, section 57(3), which states: \u201CIf the person in respect of whom particulars have been taken under this section is acquitted, the particulars shall be forthwith destroyed:\u201D. In effect, that is saying that the particulars of anybody who is charged and found not guilty have to be destroyed. The Policing Act 2008 changed the whole nature of that provision and said essentially that the particulars must be destroyed unless something else has happened. So the emphasis changed to destroying the particulars. Section 34(b)(ii) of the Policing Act 2008 states that particulars must be destroyed \u201Cunless\u2014(A) the person is convicted; or (B) the person is discharged under section 106 of the Sentencing Act 2002; or (C) an alternative resolution is imposed where the person admits to an offence (for example, diversion).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMany of the arguments I have heard today from members of the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party would have us think that the previous Parliament thought that identifying particulars should be kept for someone on a diversion but not when proof of guilt has already been given in the Youth Court and where a resolution has been reached. Many would think that that is an alternative resolution and that it is covered in this particular subsection. I can well imagine why the previous Parliament felt that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn fact, when the issue was first raised as to whether this subsection enabled the police to keep the particular identifying features in relation to youth offenders whose matters had been resolved in the Youth Court\u2014often when the offenders had said they were guilty and the resolution had been agreed to\u2014the police sought advice from Crown Law. There were months and months of discussions between the police and Crown Law, because there is a very legitimate case here that would say there is a lot of doubt as to what these words mean and to whom they would apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have heard the argument that the Police Act was passed in 1958, which was before the Youth Court was established, so clearly it does not apply. Well, it does apply because the Police Act 1958 has been amended on many occasions over the years, which is why the previous Minister of Police Annette King thought it should be reviewed, and she was quite right to do so. She was quite right to bring in new legislation and to bring it into a more modern age, but that is where this slip-up occurred. The Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill is simply making sure that we remove that possibility\u2014in fact, probability\u2014that the wrong decision could be brought about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI do not think that is evidence of a conspiracy; I think that is evidence of members of this House trying to do the right thing by the public, by victims, and, frankly, by youth offenders, who do need to be held accountable for their actions. This bill is not something that enables the police to charge around collecting information just in case one day they might want to charge someone; this is about making sure that they get the right people who have committed the crimes, rather than the wrong people. It is also about understanding that the youth we are talking about are deeply troubled, or they would not be in this situation. The last thing they need from this Parliament is the sort of argument I have heard today from some members, which is that it is all about the police wanting to be mean to young offenders and to pick on them. These young people need help. They cannot get help unless they go through a system like the Youth Court, which brings them a great deal of opportunities to change their ways. The Youth Court has been a huge success; we should support it. This bill supports the Youth Court and the work it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002267ab1d006fba48e0992dc0ad4465a7aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267ab1d006fba48e0992dc0ad4465a7aa\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate that the Minister in charge of the bill has answered some of the questions that have been raised. I think that is very good. It is true that the Police Act 1958 has been amended, but from what I can gather, section 57 in particular has been amended in only a very minor way, and certainly not in the substantive piece that she referred to. It is true that section 57(3) of the 1958 Act talks about holding particulars unless the person is acquitted, but it is also true that the second paragraph of subsection (3) talks about that provision not applying if a person is acquitted on account of his insanity or is discharged under section 42 of the Criminal Justice Act 1954. The qualification for section 57(3) uses the word \u201Cdischarged\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn fact, it is interesting that when one goes to section 83(1) of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989 it talks about the concept that young people are not convicted if they come under one of the section\u2019s provisions. The first one is if the court discharges the young person from proceedings without further order or penalty. Again, it uses the same word \u201Cdischarged\u201D to exempt the person from the identifying particulars requirement, which is the same wording that is used to exempt the person under section 57(3) of the 1958 Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAll that having been said, I think the question is\u2014and I think the Minister has now admitted it\u2014that one can have doubts around all of this, the meaning of legislation and what the intention was, etc., but, certainly in terms of what was explicitly stated during the parliamentary debate or in any of the documentation that the Government put out around that debate, there was nothing that nailed the interpretation of the 2008 legislation to what the Labour Party or National are saying now. In that context, and the in context that a whole lot of young people who have gone through the court system will not suddenly be jumping up and wanting to brought back into the spotlight with appeals, there will not be a problem for the Government or society if we consider this in a more considered manner, rather than rushing this whole bill through Parliament under urgency. We appeal to the Government at this late stage to change its course and to let us have a longer period to deal with this bill. We have time, we can do it, and we should not just push it through today under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00224a737faec67d4f3a8dfec301f3cfba42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a737faec67d4f3a8dfec301f3cfba42\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill has one clause. This clause repeals section 34 of the Policing Act 2008 and inserts new sections 34 and 34A. It clarifies the instances under which the identifying particulars of a young person can be stored, as intended by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe are talking about young people who have appeared before the Youth Court, have been found wanting, and have been convicted\u2014a case has been proven against them. These are the young people whose particulars we are talking about. We are not talking about young people who have never done anything, are innocent, and walking along the streets of New Zealand. We are talking about young people who have been brought before the Youth Court and have had a charge against them proved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt has been decided by the Youth Court that there are number of responses it could use. In fact, there are seven levels in the hierarchy of court responses if a charge against a young person has been proved. The responses go from quite minor through to quite serious, the most serious being to send the young person to the District Court for sentencing. So there is the ability for the Youth Court to make a decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this measure concerns young people who have committed crimes, and the ability to retain their particulars\u2014Part 2 sets out what those particulars are\u2014and it is plain common sense. Why would we not retain the particulars of young people when they have committed a crime and the Youth Court has made a decision on it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EKeith Locke has said today that we should come to this bill from a judge\u2019s point of view. I say no, he is quite wrong. Members should come to this bill facing up to our responsibility to pass a law that reflects our intent, and it is then up to the judges to interpret it. This Parliament is going through a process to ensure that we have a law that reflects our intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI am surprised at some of the comments from Keith Locke, because he was the Green spokesperson on the Policing Bill during the 2 years that we\u2014that is, the Greens and the previous Labour Government\u2014consulted on it. He met with me on many occasions. He must think again about what he said. He made it sound as though the previous Government knew the mistake was there and did not change it. If we knew we had made a mistake, does he think we would have left the bill in that position? If we knew there was a mistake, would we not have fixed it? It is nonsensical to say we knew there was a mistake and we did not fix it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOf course we did not know there was a mistake in the Policing Bill, nor did the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party. If the M\u0101ori Party and the Green Party knew that it was a mistake and they wanted to talk about it\u2014or perhaps they did know there was a mistake and they did not want to talk about it. I do not believe that was the case; I believe it was a genuine error\u2014an oversight. Now we have the opportunity to rectify it, so we can proceed on in a manner that existed in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI cannot see why this House would not support this bill. It seems to me that many of the arguments we are having are dancing on the head of a pin. We want to ensure that young people who offend get the opportunities to have different orders made on them, so they are not all sent off to the District Court. We would not want that. When one looks at the responses that are available to the Youth Court and are available for young people, one can see that many of them will help young people and their families, work with those young people, and give those families an opportunity to put those young people on the right path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I would say that we ought to be passing this bill as soon as we can. There is nothing wrong, in our view, in taking urgency on this particular matter. We do not always agree with urgency\u2014in fact, we think some of the urgency has been wrong and we have said so\u2014but we are talking about genuine omission in legislation that needs to be corrected. Unfortunately, it has been used today by the M\u0101ori Party and the Green Party as a stalking horse for other issues, and I think that is a terrible shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI do not disagree with some of the points Rahui Katene of the M\u0101ori Party has raised about the broader issues, but they are not the issues of this amendment. There are many reports on other issues, and never did I say to Rahui Katene today that there were five reports on this particular issue. I said there were about six or seven reports on the overall bill that looked at many parts of it and that we consulted on them. No, I did not say there were five reports on this particular part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe wider issues are worthy of a debate, but they are not what this bill is about, and the bill should not today be used as a stalking horse for something else. There is a time and place to raise those issues and that is when they should be raised. An amendment to correct an omission should not be used as ploy. I do not agree with that. I think we should concentrate on the issues before us and make the amendment as soon as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u002218defe22af914055aa9336d3df3fb84b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218defe22af914055aa9336d3df3fb84b\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Before I go on to Part 2 of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill I will just respond to some of the issues that have been raised. One of those issues was raised by the Minister of Police, who seems to think that because we are talking about the way M\u0101ori are picked up by the police we are saying that the police are being mean to M\u0101ori. In fact, that is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that ethnic profiling exists, it has existed for a while, and our kids are being picked up more by the police, regardless of whether they are doing anything wrong. All they have to be doing is walking down a road and the police are picking them up and taking them in for questioning. Not only are they being picked up more often, they also are being charged more often\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fed39b6ff0b41c5ba0d789788b4060e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on Part 2 and Part 2 is about identifying particulars. I ask the member to come back to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ece60357316433cb7c02cf9be4d4526\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It is a fact that when we are talking about being discharged without conviction, it is the judge\u2019s decision as to what those orders will be about. But because of this part, because of this amendment, the police can also make the decision to hold on to their particulars. So regardless of whether someone is to be convicted, the police will be able to hold on to their particulars. It is a matter of these kids being found guilty by the police\u2014not by the judge but by the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill sets out in new section 34 the detail of how the identifying particulars of the person \u201Cmay be entered, recorded, and stored on a Police information recording system.\u201D New section 34(2) authorises those same images to be destroyed depending on whether an outcome authorises continued storage. The section, however, does not provide any detail about how the impressions of a person\u2019s fingerprints, palm-prints, or footprints will be destroyed. It does not specify how the photographs or visual images of a person are protected and how they are to be destroyed. All we learn is that the identifying particulars of a person obtained under sections 32 or 33 of the Policing Act are able to be entered, recorded, and stored. Section 32 says that a constable may use \u201Creasonable force that may be necessary to secure the person\u2019s identifying particulars.\u201D Of course, that could well open up another debate about how we define \u201Creasonable force\u201D and what sort of force one needs to use to retrieve a photograph or a set of fingerprints. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ENew sections 34 and 34A are woefully inadequate in providing details around the collection, utilisation, and storage provisions. We know that there have been trust issues with the police holding such information, and there are concerns also from human rights advocates and civil liberties spokespersons around the whole issue of storage of personal data. I think the anxiety around the storage of personal data is such that the bill should have addressed this. The public has a right to know what is going to happen to personal data that is stored, and also, when a decision is made to discharge that data, how it will be destroyed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note to the bill tries to give some sort of explanation around storage. It tells us: \u201CThe storage of youth IP is vital for the detection of youth offenders who go on to reoffend. Early identification of repeat youth offenders is important for ensuring that interventions are put in place to help prevent repeat youth offenders from progressing to the adult court system. It is also vital to solving crimes and providing satisfaction to victims of youth crime.\u201D But a defining characteristic of this bill is that these broad statements go nowhere. There is no detail about the types of interventions that might be put in place. We are told that fingerprints and photographs are vital for solving crimes\u2014a fact that I would have thought was fairly self-evident. We are also told that fingerprints and photographs provide satisfaction to victims of youth crimes, although it is hard to see exactly how that works, either. But what we do not have in any part or clause of this bill are the analysis and the policy justification of why this bill is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI will leave the last word to Joseph Stafford, who wrote this comment on Facebook this morning: \u201CIf you are not convicted, then your details should be erased.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe3e282d5cd4e85b42e01dc5fc9c2c2\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: They are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc6b23895784dcb88ef2d5cc4abd620\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: Discharged without conviction? That is not convicted. He continues: \u201COur Gen Z teens are the most likely to infringe on society because that is just how they are wired. Having got bored with the boundaries set for them at home, they now are testing society\u2019s boundaries outside the fence, trying to figure how much rope they have to play with. This is normal and what any actual community should absorb. It takes a village to raise a kid and a teen. I\u2019m not advocating raving mayhem, either, but misdemeanour things like drinking in a public place, driving on a learner\u2019s licence, and the like are all part of a teen\u2019s learning. Call it youthful exuberance. But there seems to be more lax behaviour expectations of white middle-class company directors and their management of hundreds of millions of mum and dad investors\u2019 moneys, which has a far more significant impact on our society. All these folk should be fingerprinted on suspicion. They are going to commit fraud because the form book clearly shows they have a disposition to.\u201D This is a direct quote. This is what the public thinks of this bill. This is what we should have heard if it had gone to select committee. Because it did not go to select committee, this is the only way the public can have its say on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere are legitimate questions to be asked about this bill, which the M\u0101ori Party has tried to bring to the debate by sharing the views of our listening and viewing public. We believe that it is important to have the debate to enable people to engage with the issues. Most of all, when we come to the end of Part 2 of the bill, we come to the word \u201Coutcomes\u201D. We want to see outcomes that focus on the potential of our rangatahi and that support our rangatahi to be leaders, not outcomes restricted to the storage of photographs and fingerprints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad79a9ee4e149cda83cc9108db83d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad79a9ee4e149cda83cc9108db83d5b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I feel that that speech made by Rahui Katene was a somewhat extraordinary contribution. I believe that she raises the issues from a genuine belief that she has an obligation to raise those matters here, but she is mistaken as to the purpose of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. I want to go back to the Police Act 1958. I thank the Minister of Police, the Minister in the chair, for explaining the history. I actually thought that would solve the problem for everyone in this Chamber, but, obviously, it did not, so I will do it, as well\u2014not \u201Cas well\u201D as the Minister but \u201Cin addition to\u201D; not \u201Cas well\u201D, obviously!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EClause 57(3) of the Police Act 1958\u2014and I have it here; it has nice red lines through it, because, of course, it has all been overtaken\u2014states: \u201CIf the person in respect of whom particulars have been taken under this section is acquitted, the particulars shall be forthwith destroyed: Provided that this subsection shall not apply if the person is acquitted on account of his insanity or is discharged under section 19 of the Criminal Justice Act 1985 or section 347 of the Crimes Act 1961.\u201D The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but that is a discharge without conviction, is it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db5f54d840c5412ea3cadf49ee92c37f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c940b4c26143f6a90a6dedc7c5a7f6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So we have always had in there the provision that the destruction applies on acquittal unless the acquittal is based on a discharge without conviction. As the member from the M\u0101ori Party must know, in order to get a discharge without conviction, the facts have to be admitted. That is the whole basis for a discharge without conviction. It is the only \u201Cget out of jail free\u201D card that we have in our system. It literally lets one off the hook as long as one admits what one did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think it is absolutely plain that the person who wrote that speech in good faith was basing his or her comments on misinformation from this House rather than the accurate information, which is that we have always allowed the police to retain the identifying particulars of everyone whom they collect them from, unless there has been an acquittal, and that has not applied where there has been an acquittal on account of insanity or a discharge without conviction under the varying provisions of the Criminal Justice Act or the Crimes Act. Those provisions have been there since 1958. If the member felt so strongly about them or if her party felt so strongly about them, why did they not raise them in relation to the discussion documents that the Minister consulted on? Why were they not raised in the debate in the House? The truth is that nobody thought the legislation was doing anything other than reinstating the law as it was at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe only reason that the law has had this effect is that some very, very powerfully positive, good legislation for children and young people allows judges to make all of these different orders, rather than sending them off for sentencing in the District Court. I think it is really important that the member takes this into account, because all of the things that she says she wants for our rangatahi and our young people she has actually got in the shape of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. A series of orders can be made in a Youth Court. There is a hierarchy of court\u2019s responses if a charge against a young person is proved. Why are we hearing the member talking about charges that have been laid? These orders can be made only if the charge has been proved. We are talking about young people who are already off the rails. I accept the Minister\u2019s contention in this particular regard that this hierarchy of responses was decided in order to give young people better opportunities; to get them in front of a drug and alcohol rehab service, to get them under supervision, to get different things happening for them, so that they did not have to face the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am worried that judges suddenly will have to consider that the police will not be allowed to keep information about a young person who is already off the rails. We know that if a young person has already offended, he or she is much more likely to be heading down the pathway of reoffending than not, because we know that the reoffending rate amongst young people is very high. I think it is really important that there is a clear understanding of why we have ended up with the particular options before us. Do we want judges thinking that if they make a decision under one of these orders, then the police will not be able to hold on to that information in case the young person reoffends and it might assist in tracking down the source of the offending, so they enter a conviction in order for the young person to be brought before a District Court for sentence or decision, in which case the Sentencing Act 2002 applies, which means that they will be caught by the changes to the Act that that member\u2019s party agreed with in 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think we are getting into a circular argument because there is a fundamental misunderstanding. The law always provided for this. The only thing that has changed is that the Youth Court has some options for young people that let them off the hook in terms of being sentenced in the District Court under the Sentencing Act. And that is a good thing. I think everyone in the House would agree that what the Youth Court can do today is far superior to what it was able to do in the past. But where the member seems to depart from reality, in my view, is her misunderstanding about what that will mean in practice. Young people who head off down this pathway end up having multiple offences before they turn 18, and then they end up in the adult system, and there is nothing really we can do to help them once they go over that edge\u2014well, apart from some. But anyone involved in rehabilitation will tell us, and the Minister will know herself, that the cost of rehab for those in their early 20s is far greater than it is for those in their teens, as it is far greater for those in their teens than it is for those in their very early years. I think the whole objective behind this measure is to make sure that we have the capacity to utilise the legislation as it was always intended to be utilised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that my colleague Annette King made, and I think it is the most fundamental point here. All of these issues are really important\u2014how we look out for young people, how we get them on to the right path. All of those issues are really important, but that is not the purpose of this debate. Legislation that was written in 1958 was modernised after a series of consultations in 2008. This debate is about the fact that that modernisation accidently overlooked that the Youth Court now had a hierarchy of court\u2019s responses available if a charge against a young person was proved. That was omitted, and only in those circumstances could the information not be retained. So it is not a question of anything going wrong for the young person, other than if the young person has already been convicted and their identifying particulars are on the record, that information will be kept. That will mean that if that young person offends again, either as a young person or as an adult, that information will be available to the police, who will be able to track the source of the offending much more quickly than they would otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI cannot understand why the member objects to that. I think it is very straightforward. It was an error that was made at the time. I did not notice it. Nobody else in the House noticed it. But nobody voted on Part 3 of the Policing Bill in 2008. We had the debate on 27 August, or something. We are ending up having a debate about something that is completely irrelevant to the context, which is a technical error that requires fixing. The use of urgency and retrospective legislation in order to achieve that is an entirely appropriate use of our Standing Orders. I support the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u002204380783bacb47ca838437f4a30ac1ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204380783bacb47ca838437f4a30ac1ae\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022039ce1eded354cdc974a6e2d7bf31d48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022039ce1eded354cdc974a6e2d7bf31d48\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: On the vote on the question that Part 1 stand part, I announced that the Ayes were 96 and the Noes were 13. The correct figures should be the Ayes are 106, the Noes are 13. The record will be amended accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a8b342482a49c797ddae14cfaa05a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a8b342482a49c797ddae14cfaa05a3\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is the gist of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill. This is the part that seeks to restore the power of the police to revert to the practice they undertook in good faith until October 2010\u2014that is, to retain the youth identification particulars where youth are given some penalty within the Youth Court. This goes to the heart of the matter clearly: what powers do the police have? Clearly, nobody is denying the obvious necessity for them to gather the information. That is how they do their work and achieve their ends. The question of retention is clearly the key to it. I do not accept the notion we have heard from a number of speakers that this is an inappropriate place to be debating some of these issues around the rightness, the appropriateness, of keeping all of the information for any young person against whom a charge is proved. It is very difficult, and I have been listening very carefully. I think it illuminates the discussion a bit to recognise how much difficulty all of us are having with these words \u201Cconvict\u201D and \u201Cconviction\u201D. I return to the earlier point I made that the legislation on children and young people very carefully avoids the notion of conviction, in terms of evidence being presented that is sufficient to satisfy a judge that a young person has offended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EIn the specifics of this issue, in support of this bill there is a regulatory impact statement, and it encourages us to believe that the police ought to regain the powers that are contained in Part 2. I quote from the regulatory impact statement, which states: \u201CAn ongoing series of challenges to Police processes in historic cases will also impact negatively on the trust and confidence in Police.\u201D This is one of the few attempts within the regulatory impact statement to give us some substantive reason why we ought to revert to the practice of prior to October 2010. I reject the proposition that in any way this matter could reflect badly on the police. The police did not make the determination in Parliament, clearly. In good faith, as police officers, they continued with what was then current practice, and I think it reflects well on the police that, as we understand it, they were the first to recognise that they were acting illegally and brought this to the attention, presumably, of the Minister of Police, or indeed of Crown Law. We do not know. That is one of the many gaps in our knowledge, given that this has been before us for only a very few hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI reject the proposition that whatever the outcome of this proposed legislation, and particularly of Part 2, it would reflect badly in any way on the police. The Minister, in her contribution, rejected the inference that some members were saying the police were acting inappropriately. I think the words used were: \u201Cthe police being mean\u201D. I am not suggesting for a moment that the police are being mean. What is irrefutable, however, is that there is an institutional bias. We know that if we revert to the retention of the youth identifying particulars, there will be many more details kept of young M\u0101ori, particularly, than of any other ethnicity. We know this because of a well-proven, researched, and demonstrated institutional bias that young M\u0101ori men in particular are more likely to be questioned; if questioned, are more likely to be arrested; and, if arrested, are more likely to be charged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4280a74fd494053947d69d276ccecef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I warn the member that it is probably unwise to make those sort of comments. I ask you to come back to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221422611aade64c97a404f13f5a27dbbf\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. In the final part of Part 2, in new section 34A, it re-establishes, if you like, the proposition that the Youth Court can make orders under paragraphs (a) to (n) of section 283 of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. That is, the penalties applied will get more serious, clearly, from a telling-off and discharge through to residential supervision. By simply reinserting those sections, or by accepting the logic of that, we are missing an opportunity to do better. The point has already been made that the 1958 Police Act was very different from the 2008 Policing Act. The social and legal context has changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227d4d2fdc05974ac7bec0408df7be8d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d4d2fdc05974ac7bec0408df7be8d52\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I will be very brief because the issues on this bill have been well traversed, on both sides of the argument. I have listened quite carefully to the arguments put forward by the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party. Although I accept that many of the issues they are raising are genuine issues, they are much wider than the bill as it stands at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think it is really important that members make themselves familiar with new section 34A, on the back page of the bill. It makes very clear the circumstances in which a young person\u2019s identifying particulars are able to be kept. Basically it means that, in all of these cases, it is accepted that the young person has done whatever it is that has been alleged that they have done. I think it is really, really important that we make that really clear. The police will not be keeping the photographs and fingerprints of young people who are found to have done nothing wrong. They will not be keeping them. That is really, really important, and I do not think it was clear from some of the contributions we have heard from those arguing against the bill. Those records will be kept only if the person is convicted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think it is also really important that we acknowledge, particularly in the case of new section 34A(d) where somebody may be discharged without conviction, that these young people are probably at the highest risk of reoffending, so making sure that the police can identify them and having that information readily available is really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI have listened carefully to the debate. Ultimately the change in the law was not intended; the responsible thing for Parliament to do, therefore, is to revert to the status quo. If members feel strongly that the status quo is wrong, there are opportunities for them to bring a bill to the House to change it, but simply legislating to protect a mistake is not the way to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c44e1959e1140e7891147f53c7d904d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fb970f2d99048cb85f1a16c693544f8\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225881b65c91b042799a9f0599ccabb965\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b35020b0845147748c074f642d40dff2\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208efb3e1b00249d1b28a653560f4ce1f\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000615\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000616\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022467a35bc9f964d579482ba5411b3de48\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022de1af01532a24d6087d763a5ba56dd88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de1af01532a24d6087d763a5ba56dd88\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I would like to thank the members of the House for the way in which they have dealt with this amendment bill. This bill seeks to rectify the impact of an unintentional legislative change that had the potential to hinder the effectiveness of the police\u2019s efforts to resolve crime and reduce further offending by youth. By restoring the ability of police to retain the identifying particulars of youth, we will ensure that police have one of the essential tools required to reduce offending and victimisation and to increase the overall safety of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition, I note that parties in the House have had advance copies of the bill\u2014some parties more advance than others. I would like to thank members for keeping the confidentiality with which I trusted them and I congratulate them on that. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f099039954714d979b0a596ee071eb96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f099039954714d979b0a596ee071eb96\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E We have rejected and opposed the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill, and clearly will continue to do so. As I said earlier today, we oppose the bill on issues of both process and substance. In terms of process in particular, we have just heard from the Minister that all parties were given advance copies of this bill\u2014some more in advance than others. We do not consider getting one single hard copy of a bill at 10.30 the night before it is due to be debated to be particularly advance notice. It clearly was inadequate for us to do any substantial investigation, consideration, consultation within our caucus, or, indeed, to obtain confidential but skilled legal advice. No forward advice was given to us. There was no attempt to streamline the process of this bill through the House by getting the buy-in of all parties in advance of its coming to the House. I made the point in my earlier contribution that had the Greens been taken into the confidence of the Government at some reasonable time in advance of the bill\u2019s being tabled, we might well have been able to negotiate an outcome that would not have involved the process we have gone through today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EMr Ardern put a challenge to us in his contribution to the House. He wondered why it might be that we were not taken into the Government\u2019s confidence in this matter. I have given that a wee bit of thought in the intervening couple of hours and I have come to the conclusion that the reason the Government is unwilling to take a smaller party into its confidence\u2014an Opposition party\u2014is perhaps that the Government has not yet grasped the reality of MMP. To not give some reasonable advance notice to a party that I can proudly say has proven its ability to accept and respect a confidence, I think indicates that the Government is locked into the notion of a two-party adversarial system. I do believe that the work of this Parliament would proceed more smoothly and get better outcomes if members on all sides recognised that we are in a new context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThen there is the issue of retrospectivity. Effectively one major component of this bill is that it will be retrospective. It will, if you like, validate the actions of the police between October 2008 and 2010. We are told it will protect the Crown and the police from any possible liability, from litigation, and from appeals of convictions that may have depended upon information that was retained illegally. I do stress the point that we know the police were acting illegally, but they did not know that and there was no reason they ought to have known. I make no criticism of that action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EHowever, I think we have to respect that retrospective law is most often bad law. There are very clear situations where it ought not to be opposed, and we recall a recent example of that. The Greens had no opposition to the issue of the constable oath. That was finely nuanced wording that put the possibility out there that constables did not have the power to arrest. We had no objection. It was very clear-cut and obvious. This is none of the above. This is far from being a similar case. Retrospective law is anathema to this House to the extent that protections against that appear in our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I quote from section 26 of the Act: \u201CNo one who has been finally acquitted or convicted of, or pardoned for, an offence shall be tried or punished for it again.\u201D There is a clear message within that. It is clearly codified in our law that we do not change the law after the event except in very exceptional circumstances. It may well be the case that this law needs to be changed. However, there is no justification for the way in which it has been done\u2014to put it through without the benefit of legal advice or opinion, without exposure to the public gaze, and without even giving participants in this Chamber reasonable time to consider their views, gather evidence, and undertake some sort of commentary on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are told that the Crown is at real risk of potentially some multimillion dollars from litigants who might seek to appeal against conviction. I think the scale of that risk does not justify the degree of speed, secrecy, and urgency in the passing of this legislation. A contributor from the Labour Party referred, clearly in jest, to a trillion cases out there where young people and their lawyers might choose to attempt to pull back a conviction and to have a finding overturned at the Youth Court level. I reject that completely. We have only to use our common sense to think it through. There would be only a very few cases out of the 1,200 or so that have been talked about where the finding rested solely on one piece of evidence that had been retained, be it a fingerprint, a photograph, or whatever it might be. Any opportunities even for an opportunistic lawyer to go hunting to have a conviction overturned would be vanishingly small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis House does make mistakes, and it will continue to make mistakes because we are all human beings, and long may that continue. However, mistakes carry cost. I have heard several times the explanation that when young people have committed offences they must be punished for that. If this Government puts itself at risk of some cost because of a mistake made, so be it. The degree of secrecy, of urgency, is not balanced by the degree of real risk of the likelihood of appeals against this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe heard a revealing commentary from the Minister in her contribution, to the extent that she indicated that these young people who are offending cannot be helped unless they go through some process like a Youth Court. I reject that. I think we can do a great deal to help our young people stay out of the courts, to keep away from this register and away from the notice of the justice system if we invest heavily and well at an earlier stage in their development. We could have a very different debate today about the $1.2 billion in the corrections budget, for example, that could be spent in so many better ways that would absolutely reduce youth offending, adult offending, and recidivism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EFinally, I refer to the challenge I put out. Ten months ago the police realised that they had been getting it wrong, albeit with no blame to them. Clearly, in the intervening 10 months they have not been retaining information. They have been acting in accordance with the law as it is currently written. The challenge I put out is to ask where the evidence is that that has caused a real problem. We have heard that in the absence of retaining information about these young offenders who have been found guilty of some offence, there will be major and serious repercussions, that they will get away with further offences, and that there will be significant adverse effects from that. Where is the evidence? Not one speaker from the Government pointed us towards any information from the police that said that their job became harder, that they had a more difficult time locating offenders, and that they had a more difficult time proving who had committed some crime against the local society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI am very surprised by that. I would have thought that that, for me, would be a very compelling argument\u2014if I had a document that contained evidence from the police that said their job was made more difficult and they had more difficulty locating offenders, or getting orders against them in the Youth Court or at the District Court, in the absence of being able to retain that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EA certain quiet has descended. I do hope that from the Government\u2019s contributions we will hear that such evidence exists, that an empirical study has been made, and that this error, which apparently was made, did have that adverse effect in the last 10 months. We know that if young offenders are going to reoffend they tend to reoffend quite quickly. They are captured in some sort of cycle of offending. I would advocate that if the seriousness of this error had been such as has been put to us today, we would have seen evidence of difficulty experienced by the police. I look forward to hearing that evidence from the Government. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00224ffef8167b00462995d9c1487d938fc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ffef8167b00462995d9c1487d938fc4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to traverse in the third reading of the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill the sequence of events that brought us to today in respect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe starting point for this is, of course, the Police Act 1958, section 57(3). It states: \u201CIf the person in respect of whom particulars have been taken under this section is acquitted, the particulars shall be forthwith destroyed: Provided that this subsection shall not apply if the person is acquitted on account of his insanity or is discharged under section 19 of the Criminal Justice Act 1985 or section 347 of the Crimes Act 1961.\u201D This provision referred to particulars, and the particulars in this case include his\u2014and of course this was written in the masculine gender in those days; we did not have these nice gender-neutral pieces of legislation that we do today, but given the criminal offending statistics it is probably appropriate for this bill\u2014photograph, fingerprints, palm prints, and footprints, and may use or cause to be used such reasonable force as may be necessary to secure these particulars. So that had been the law since 1958, which is, of course, quite some substantial period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt was timely that the new law, the Policing Act, took effect in 2008. It was 50 years since the previous law was enacted, and, yes, there had been a myriad of amendments. I think the former Minister the Hon Annette King highlighted it as more of a patchwork of legislation rather than a complete whole, as the Policing Act 2008 was want to be. The Policing Act 2008 was a major change in that it modernised the law. There were certain features of the law that it wished to replicate, but in a modern sense and not to derogate from it. Some of the language, as we have already heard, certainly needed to be updated\u2014\u201Cif the person in respect of whom particulars have been taken under this section is acquitted, the particulars shall be forthwith destroyed.\u201D Of course, that highlights essentially that those particulars were kept unless the person was acquitted, and even when the person was acquitted, if it was acquittal as a result of an insanity finding or there was a discharge without conviction, then that exception did not apply and the particulars were retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis law has always been about the police\u2019s right to hold on to information that they have collected from people in investigating a charge, but only being allowed to retain it on securing a conviction. Obviously, the law allowed for two instances in the good old days, in 1958, which is actually prior to my date of birth, where they were allowed to keep that information. One was acquittal on the basis of insanity. That is because in many cases\u2014and I have spoken to people who have been the family of murder victims, for example\u2014somebody has been acquitted by reason of insanity. The family of the murder victim find the acquittal incredibly difficult to deal with, because of course the person has committed the act but is not guilty of the offence because he or she does not have the mens rea for the offence to be committed. So that person is not capable of forming the intention and not capable of pleading in the case. In that instance, the Parliament of the day decided that it was in the best interests of justice that that information be made available and continue to be able to be retained by the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt is the same for those people discharged without conviction. We have heard a lot about discharge without conviction in this House today. It is simply nonsense to suggest that this somehow undermines the status of a discharge without conviction, because in order to get a discharge without conviction the facts must be admitted. A person has to admit that he or she undertook the acts complained of and committed the offence, then that person is discharged without conviction. It is a \u201Cget out of jail free\u201D card. It is literally that. I believe that there has been a complete misunderstanding of the nature of that, because the facts are admitted. Given that the facts are admitted, and the fact that under those circumstances that would be the only circumstance where the police could not retain those particulars, it seems to me that a judge would be less likely to discharge without conviction if he or she thought that that would stop the police from using that information in the future. Sometimes when people are given a \u201Cget out of jail free\u201D card, they use it and other times they do not. I think that a judge might well be mindful of that fact and say \u201CI\u2019m not prepared to take that risk, so I\u2019m not going to give that person a discharge without conviction.\u201D I think we should be cautious about following that particular line, as proposed by the M\u0101ori Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThen we come to the Policing Act 2008. Really, all the Policing Act did that was different was that it talked about an alternative resolution being imposed where the person admits to an offence, like diversion. Given that discharge without conviction is an admission of offence and here are some alternative resolutions to be imposed where a person admits to the offence, the same thing now applies in our Youth Court. In fact, we have now, as I said in the Committee stage, in the Youth Court a hierarchy of court responses if the charge against a young person is proved. All this does is give the court the power to be a little more lenient, perhaps a little more leaning towards an outcome that would be better for the young person\u2019s health and well-being, and maybe leading them off the trajectory, the pathway, to crime that they are on at that time. I think that under those circumstances, there is no question in my mind that there was a sense in Parliament when this law was passed in 2008 that the alternative resolution area was an area where the police were going to be allowed to retain those identifying particulars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe only reason we are debating this issue today is that young people have better options available to them through the Youth Court, and this clause does not reference those options. That is it. That is the only reason we are even debating this today. It is on that basis and also on the basis of this one statement in the regulatory impact statement, which I feel sums it up: \u201CThere is no evidence of a policy decision during the development of the Policing Act 2008, to reduce the circumstances under which Police could retain youth IP.\u201D The reason there is no evidence of a policy decision during the development of that Act is that there was no policy decision to reduce the circumstances under which police could retain youth identifying particulars, as opposed to any other identifying particulars. I believe that it is an appropriate use of this House\u2019s time under urgency to pass a law through all of its stages in order to rectify a genuine mistake when there was no policy decision that was upset as a result. For me, it is a pretty straightforward conclusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is this: I would normally rail against any form of retrospectivity. Yes, I did use the word trillions, because it was just the word that came into my head. The truth is that if this bill had gone to a select committee, then every lawyer who has represented a young person in a case where the police had relied on fingerprints as any part of the evidence against a young person\u2014I do not think photographs would be the reason for the conviction\u2014would not come to the select committee to tell it how to improve the legislation. They would go straight to their clients to say \u201CWe can get you off. We may not be able to guarantee that we can get you off, but we have a jolly good chance, because there is no precedent value for this where there is only one item of evidence. So we may have a better chance.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe truth is that very few people from those examples will be in that situation, but I do not think it is a justified use of this country\u2019s expensive judicial system to even go down that track. That is why I support both the retrospectivity and the substance of the changes. They are minor technical amendments to satisfy a mistake made in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022637c91276c7b4b0ca25a6f747fef9042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637c91276c7b4b0ca25a6f747fef9042\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E When the Policing Act of 2008 was passed, it was assumed that the legal situation relating to the police\u2019s ability to retain identifying particulars of youth was carried over from the Police Act of 1958. It was not, so the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill we are debating today seeks to rectify that position. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee853472483b4fda9eb2939dd8689fbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee853472483b4fda9eb2939dd8689fbc\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Immediately before I came into this House I spent a profitable half hour talking with Deborah Morris-Travers from Every Child Counts, sharing our enthusiasm and our energy for a strengths-based approach to our tamariki. She provided me with a report entitled He Mano R\u0101: One thousand days to get it right for every child. Those 1,000 days relate to the first 3 years of life and the 1,000 days of a parliamentary term. It is a wonderful concept: the incentive and the inspiration to ensure that our children are well nurtured, and that we place value on policies that lead to positive outcomes for our tamariki and mokopuna. I thought about what a complete contrast it is to the focus of this House today, which has dedicated hours of debate to keeping photographs and fingerprints of youth offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party\u2014the only two parties opposing this Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill and making the effort to speak out and speak up on behalf of our people\u2014have received the wrath of the House for daring to oppose this bill. We have been told that it is simply a technical issue, and that all the bill does is restore the legal position under the Police Act 1958.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ETere Harrison, in writing to the M\u0101ori Party about her response to this bill, has acknowledged how critical it is for this debate to be held. I share her views, which put forward another position: \u201CThat would have to be the immediate concern, under urgency will prevent select committee process and public submission. That\u2019s a gross (and suspiciously a deliberate), misuse of urgency. Unfortunately not all parties are present in the House to vote against it\u201D. That, of course, is the nature of urgency: the process of public scrutiny is shortcut, or, in the case of this bill, completely avoided, so the onus is placed on all parties to take up the issues on behalf of the people who have placed them in this House to speak on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has, therefore, taken every effort to ensure that the views of M\u0101ori\u2014the strong and independent views of M\u0101ori\u2014are placed on the record of the debate on this bill, and indeed every bill in the urgency motion. We will continue to do that, whether or not we receive the reception we hope for, because we are conscious, as Tere Harrison has also pointed out, of the importance of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, in particular article 3 of that convention, which requires that all \u201CStates Parties undertake to ensure the child such protection and care as is necessary for his or her well-being,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EOur focus in raising the questions we have is to bring to the House the opportunity to talk about youth well-being, rather than simply to promote yet another forum for politicians to talk about the perils of youth, and the need to hold the fingerprints of youth who have been admonished by a judge. I really recommend that members look carefully at section 283(a) to (n) of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act. These provisions for children to be admonished, for young parents to attend a parenting programme, and for young people to attend a mentoring programme are now provisions for which the fingerprints and photographs of these young people are kept. I suggest that Mr Hipkins in particular looks at this detail. These orders, from very good legislation, were always intended to focus on child and youth well-being, not to be fodder for this Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI have been greatly disappointed by the nature of the debate today, which has tried to close down discussion on impacts for youth, and instead focus on the mistakes of the statute. At the end of the day, one has to ask: if this bill was merely a technical issue, why were the name and the nature of the legislation kept secret until mid-morning today? According to the New Zealand Herald, the explanation for the secrecy was fears the bill might lead to a flood of legal challenges. That same paper suggests it has been the best kept secret in the world, with discussions between the police and officials taking place since 2010 when the problem was first identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe have been talking in the House today about the fact that fingerprints and photographs have been improperly retained ever since the Policing Act of 2008 was implemented. The Minister of Police told the New Zealand Herald that the police had been holding hundreds of records that should have been destroyed under the present law, which have now been destroyed. So, in effect, the Minister has confirmed that unlawful practice by the police has taken place, with the police retaining information that should have been destroyed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe House needs to know whether the police hold any records that have been collected over the past 3 years. If so, have they been held by the police in breach of the current law, and, if not, then why is the bill being made retrospective? This little bill, containing just four pages, has been described as necessary to rectify a loophole in the law. But I have asked the House to focus on the bigger picture\u2014that is, the group being targeted in this law. We are told in the explanatory note that this group could comprise about 1,200 young people a year\u2014that is, young people who have proven outcomes in the Youth Court and orders made under the Children, Young Persons and their Families Act. Yet again, we have law that focuses on crime and offending, on youth offenders, and on repeat offenders. This is a law to enable the police to retain the identifying particulars of young people who have a charge proven in the Youth Court, and who have had an order made by a judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI bring us back to the views of the public\u2014those people who have contacted our office over the morning to share their feedback. Sharlene Pearce shared her view, which I quote for the record: \u201CI do however believe that \u2018where attention goes, energy flows\u2019, and that perhaps in the long run (another day) we should look at a solution to changing the attitudes of people looking at our youth in a negative way. i know that it would be a total paradigm shift for society though! It\u2019s seemingly impossible! But could we focus on the positive instead of the negative, I can see some people have very strong feelings about the institutional racism we inevitably face.\u201D A similar view was shared by Maryanne Rapata: \u201Ccontinue to oppose it Minister, hard to fathom that some people are so naive to think that only serious offences and offenders data will be kept. Would hate to think if my moko shoplifts when he is a minor, that the offence will be hanging around his neck for the rest of his life. People change as they grow older, circumstances change but his offence history won\u2019t. Hoha crime is the target for this bill, not serious crime. It\u2019s saying once a crim always a crim. I don\u2019t want that for our kids or in fact anyones kid\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe most consistent comment made by other parties in this House in response to the arguments put forward by the M\u0101ori Party and the Greens has been that we limit our comments to fixing the loophole on the law, rather than stretching out any further. But if we listen to the views of the public, we can hear a focus on forgiveness, on rehabilitation, and on restorative justice. We have not heard the public calling out for youth who have a charge in the Youth Court, or who have received an order made by a judge, to be fingerprinted, photographed, and have their data retained. I remind the House that this bill allows the data to be retained of young persons who have been admonished, young persons asked to attend a parenting education programme, and young persons asked to return to the court 12 months on from their first appearance. If the House thinks that people who have admitted to a charge necessarily have committed the offence they admitted to, then it is living in an alternative universe. So many of our kids go to those courts and say \u201CI didn\u2019t do it, but, hey, if it\u2019s going to get me through faster, I\u2019ll say that I did.\u201D We have to be aware of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI leave the final word to Aneta Timu: \u201CI\u2019m sure even police can appreciate that we all make mistakes and if we learn from them we deserve to move on unstigmatised\u201D. Will this bill enable the great potential of our youth to be supported? Will it facilitate a second chance? The M\u0101ori Party does not think so, and we will continue to vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c18c4308f9ed493aa5d7e097adca3ce6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Policing (Storage of Youth Identifying Particulars) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e858d29872a405b92621c6887de96f6\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c66a11a4c73e47feaacacb9f1082a481\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000653\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3fa8b720c294ebc963b5a2334df697c\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Education Act 1989 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000655\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 269 in the name of the Hon Steven Joyce to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000656\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e5bacee23eac427cbd120bc36bbdb8f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4d1260c44a2482bab8a60ac6ec334e8\u0022\u003EPart 2  Transitional arrangements and amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9152f8c2504866ac36f06c9fc46142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9152f8c2504866ac36f06c9fc46142\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea74528702d4126b45c42d92df41f28\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Get with the programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e465141ed740d78b8cbaf4943ea4e8\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Quinn is telling me to get with the programme; I think Mr Quinn should look in the mirror. I am speaking to Part 2 of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). Part 2 is about transitional arrangements and amendments to other enactments. Basically, when we look at the bill overall\u2014then I will go into more detail just to put it into context\u2014we know that the bill seeks to amend the Education Act. It includes provisions concerned with three broad policy areas. The bill strengthens the regulation of the tertiary education system by improving and modernising the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s legal arrangements. That is the intention. It facilitates the expansion of international education in New Zealand by establishing Education New Zealand as a Crown agency, and it safeguards the quality and reputation of the New Zealand education system by updating and strengthening the New Zealand Qualification Authority\u2019s compliance and enforcement regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe know from some of the things that have occurred in recent times in respect of some of the qualifications offered that some international students have had unfortunate experiences here. They have come here expecting a standard of education or to go into courses that are made up of particular aspects or concentrated on particular areas, but there have been issues there. So we support the establishment of this Crown agency to ensure that the quality of our New Zealand education system is upheld. We on this side of the Chamber appreciate\u2014in fact, I am sure all of us do, as parliamentarians\u2014the importance of the international student market, and the fact that it is something that many of our institutions and schools are looking to expand into. We see the Crown agency as an important agency in respect of ensuring that we not only safeguard the quality of the international student market but also grow that market. We see it as something that will increase transparency and accountability in the tertiary education system with regard to compulsory student services fees, student loans, and student allowances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe compulsory student services fees section of this legislation is something that we have discussed in detail. When we look at Part 2 and we look at the transitional arrangements, we see that it is fairly straightforward. There is very little that we can comment on. The amendments to the enactments are a necessary component of any legislation like this, in terms of outlining what enactments will be amended. As I have said, we support wholeheartedly the Crown agency and what that means for our international student market. I will leave it at that. I am sure that members on our side of the Chamber have calls and points that they wish to make. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220f1336db7e4b404fb5ed628f18db74bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f1336db7e4b404fb5ed628f18db74bc\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on Part 2, \u201CTransitional arrangements and amendments to other enactments\u201D. The transitional arrangements, particularly when we come to the student levy, are particularly important. As we know, there is another bill going through this Parliament in relation to students associations, which has been referred to on numerous occasions. The transitional arrangements in the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) will very much need to keep in consideration that legislation, which brings massive changes to students associations at the beginning of next year. The reason that this is important and the reason it needs to be provided for under transitional arrangements\u2014Mr Quinn has his translation earpiece in, but I am actually speaking in English; I do not know whether it is breaking down the debate into simpler language for him. I was not aware that service was provided here at Parliament, but that is good to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe reason that the transitional arrangements need to take into account the early implementation of the voluntary student membership legislation is that, as we discussed in Part 1, numerous parts of this legislation relate to transparency around the setting of the student levy\u2014Mr Quinn is listening to his iPad; that is why he has his earpiece in; he just did not want to purchase his own earphones\u2014and the transparency around any increases in that levy, why they might be needed, and what that levy can be used for. As we know, given the reductions in funding for our tertiary institutions under this Government, institutions have been using some of the student levy to pay for staffing costs, not to pay for what the levy was originally intended to pay for. In that respect, the transitional provisions in this bill should take into account the fact that there will not be the organisations to consult that Part 1 has legislated for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPart 1 is quite clear that there must be consultation around those aspects of the student levy that I referred to. The student body itself needs to be part of that process. The student body itself needs to be consulted around that levy. We saw at Canterbury University, I think it was, that the levy shot up 600 percent in one year; 600 percent. Well obviously that is unacceptable, and obviously that is part of the reason why this legislation is being brought in. It gives the Minister the power to cap that levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI come back to the important part of the transitional arrangements, which is the requirement to consult students. The question was asked, and it was not answered\u2014who will they consult, once students associations have been destroyed by another bill currently going through this Parliament? How will that consultation be carried out? Because at the moment it is actually very clear-cut. The reason why this relates so closely to the transitional arrangements is that that legislation, which we are told the Government will make sure is passed before the election\u2014even though the Government promised they would not support it, and promised that it would not be passed\u2014will come into force at the beginning of next year, right in the middle of the transitional arrangements period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe bill, as it stands, says the consultation will take place and the transparency needs to occur, and that is quite clear at the moment. At the moment we have democratically elected students associations. If someone wants to consult the student body of Victoria University, the student body of Auckland University, or the student body of Waikato University\u2014whose students association membership went voluntary and then came back to being compulsory\u2014it is quite clear what that body is. But if this voluntary student membership legislation goes through, it will not be clear. In fact it could be very unclear who exactly is meant to be consulted under the transitional provisions in this legislation. For our provincial polytechnics and private training establishments it will be even less clear. Although some of the big universities might hold out for a bit longer with their students associations, just because of the critical mass they have, our provincial polytechnics, such as Tair\u0101whiti Polytechnic in Gisborne where I live, will certainly be saying goodbye to their students associations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EUnder Part l, who will the Minister consult? This should be part of the transitional provisions of this legislation. We cannot simply pass legislation in a vacuum. We certainly cannot pretend that the voluntary student membership legislation will not have an impact on this bill. It appears to me that the Government has ignored it. The Government is pretending that voluntary student membership will not go through. The question that was asked in Part 1, which was not answered, is: who will be consulted? Who will be the representatives of the students associations that Part 1 says will be consulted? This should be in the transitional provisions in Part 2. I look forward to a response from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c143babda36849a9a4543bff08e61239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c143babda36849a9a4543bff08e61239\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221967a08500a04705aad01114158df83f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221967a08500a04705aad01114158df83f\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is important that we make sure that the debate in the Committee stage covers the bases of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). In the earlier debate on Part 1 there were a number of questions raised by members on this side of the Chamber about the scope particularly around the student services levy section. As we move to the transitional provisions of the bill, about how this bill will come into force and how it will work in relation to a range of different entities, obviously I do not feel that a sufficient contribution has been made by the Minister for Tertiary Education on Part 1 on how some elements of this process will work. In particular I am concerned\u2014well, \u201Cconcerned\u201D is not the right word; I think it is a good thing that there is a cap on the student services levy because it has clearly gone out of control\u2014that as we transition to this new arrangement, the Minister now has an extraordinary range of powers. Mr Joyce is not so much \u201CDaddy Cool\u201D, as \u201CDaddy State\u201D, which is what he reaches in this clause. He gets to give a series of directions to an institution listing the categories of student services\u2014basically the broad areas of student services that an institution can provide\u2014and then if he is not satisfied with where the institution ends up in terms of those broad categories of student services, he can move to directing the types of services that are provided by the institution. As we move to finalise the arrangements in Part 2 for how the bill will come into force, I say that the Minister has not described to us exactly how he would do that, what sort of judgments he would make about a sufficient range of student services and a sufficient range of costs for student services, and most particularly, as was raised in earlier stages, whom the Minister will consult with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 227A(1)(c) \u201Crequires the institution or institutions to establish adequate arrangements for decisions to be made jointly or in consultation with the students enrolled at the institution, or their representatives, on all or any of the following matters:\u201D, and that includes the types of services that are available and the amounts students will pay for them. Whom will the Minister consult with? As we move to bring this bill into force, we have another bill in the House that would wipe out the representatives as mentioned in clause 227A(1)(c), because those representatives would be from students associations, which will cease to exist within this bill. I am aware that we are discussing Part 2 and the transitional provisions, but it does matter as to how this bill comes into force. How will the Minister be able to enact this legislation if there is no students association for him to consult with? This is the problem we have on this side of the Chamber with the bill in general. Although it is a laudable goal to limit the growth in costs of student services levies, there is a squeeze on institutions in terms of their overall funding, and that has led to the rise in student services levies. There is now a squeeze from the other direction in terms of students associations, which provide a range of services, going out of action. On the top of that, students are now expected to be somehow consulted without their representative organisation being there. It is a laudable goal in this bill, but I really do not think the Minister has adequately answered the questions earlier about how it would actually happen, or how he would play the role of \u201CDaddy State\u201D for the institutions when it comes to deciding what student services they can offer. I just make that point, as we discuss the transitional arrangements, about how this bill will come into force. I feel there are some risks ahead for institutions and unless this Government is prepared to front up, fund tertiary institutions properly, and support students associations, it will be very difficult to bring this bill into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224efed16c9deb4f4a9ee6a0befc953e00\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 116\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc9918c7a6e74d63952e5bf70bb1698c\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fe20be3571a4a0a855ef43989e26e18\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c269d47cd65476daf48c740ef0241f8\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000675\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000676\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0f94ef2ddd94a4c91459adebc0c5d2c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00229b21a66162ac418385000f808bf52acd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b21a66162ac418385000f808bf52acd\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Tertiary Education: I move, That the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time. I thank members for the work that they have done on the bill. Their amendments have enhanced a good bill. Improving skills is a key part of the Government\u2019s agenda for lifting New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. We spend over $4 billion per annum on tertiary education, and this includes student support. That is about 1.6 percent of GDP, which is high, relative to the OECD average of 1.2 percent. Given our substantial investment, we must continually look at ways to improve outcomes for students and ensure that taxpayers are getting value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe changes in this bill will result in a higher-performing system and will provide the foundations for a significant boost to our international education sector. First, this bill provides for the regulation of compulsory student services fees at tertiary institutions. This will ensure that students get a say in how these fees are charged and what they are used for. There has been growing concern over the rapid rise in the amount of compulsory student services fees charged by individual tertiary education institutions in recent years. I am not convinced that there has been a commensurate rise in the quality of these services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe bill allows the Minister to issue directions on the categories of services that compulsory student services fees can be used for and how these fees are reported, as well as ensuring that students are closely involved in the decision-making processes related to these compulsory fees. The changes in the bill will lead to a significant improvement in accountability and transparency for students and the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill enhances our international education sector. International education contributes more than $2 billion in total to our economy each year and supports 32,000 jobs. The bill will facilitate the expansion of international education by establishing the new Crown agency Education New Zealand\u2014a single agency solely focused on international education that will provide a sharper focus, better coordination, and better value for money in terms of both marketing and representation abroad. The new agency will begin operating from 1 September, with almost double the budget of its predecessors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe changes in the bill represent an exciting opportunity for a real step change in the performance of our export education sector and for international education to make a greater contribution to the economic, social, and cultural well-being of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill will strengthen the regulation of the tertiary education system by improving and updating the legal arrangements of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. In particular, the functions and powers of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority will be updated, with a new rules regime replacing the existing powers of the authority. We have also updated and strengthened the regulatory management of private training establishments, including expanding the range of enforcement measures available to the authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EAlthough most private training establishments are good performers, the work of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to drive improvements in the lowest-performing establishments has been hampered by the outdated nature of the legislative provisions and the inconsistencies within them. This bill ensures that meaningful steps can be taken to address problems as they arise, and students can have more confidence in the quality and strength of New Zealand\u2019s private education system and its protection of students\u2019 interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIt is vital that we keep working on enhancing the quality of the sector, so that New Zealand remains an attractive place to study. This bill will strengthen our tertiary and international education sectors and improve accountability and transparency for students. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022cda31588133644ea986c7ef3903d5aa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cda31588133644ea986c7ef3903d5aa4\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and speak on the third reading of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). It is an omnibus bill, and being the deputy chair of the Education and Science Committee, which heard the deliberations, I am pleased to say that Labour supports it. The bill\u2019s primary amendment is to provide greater transparency and accountability in the setting of student levies. Student levies increased hugely in 2010\u2014just last year. We saw an average\u2014yes, an average\u2014increase of 102 percent in student levies right across the country. Of course, we know that when we talk about averages it hides the variances. What we do know is that at its extreme, 600 percent was the rate of increase in the student levy at Canterbury University last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAlthough this bill is an admirable attempt to do something about that problem, and to do it in a transparent way that gives students a voice and a role in seeing how their compulsory levies are being spent, it does not address the root causes. So I urge the Government to understand that this bill, although useful, does not fix the problem. The problem that was clearly identified by the submitters when they came to see us was the funding squeeze for tertiary institutions, with Government funding not covering the cost of providing education to tertiary students in New Zealand. Of course, they are not the only part of the education sector that is feeling this squeeze, but with regard to this bill, it is incredibly important that the Government understands the funding squeeze for tertiary institutions. That is why they sought to find other funding sources, and actually ended up with what looks like a user-pays model. Their natural inclination, when they were not getting the Government support they needed to provide the services they want to provide, was to look to the students themselves. That is why we saw increases in the order of 600 percent at Canterbury University, and increases across the board of 102 percent, on average, in our tertiary institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThis is a very timely bill. It also establishes a new Crown agency in charge of export education, as well as providing stricter requirements around the registration of private training establishments, and we welcome that also. The registration of private training establishments is designed to stamp out growing qualification fraud in the sector, and we certainly hope that it does meet that goal, which is set out in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EHowever, I will come back to an issue that was debated earlier today with regard to this bill, because it is an important one for the Government to understand. Not only does the Government need to understand what caused the significant increase in student levies last year right around the country\u2014and it was not just at one or two institutions but pretty much right across the board\u2014it also needs to understand the implications of other legislation that the Government wants to push through before the election. I am referring to the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill. That bill, in tandem with the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), will let student services fall through the gaps. The effect of the voluntary student membership bill is to gut students associations\u2014those students associations that provide the very services, such as the advocacy services and the hardship grants, that keep students afloat in very difficult times. Students associations also help students to get through their studies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIf the Government is successful in pushing through that bill\u2014or, more accurately, I should say that if the ACT Party is successful in garnering the support of the National Government\u2014then that will lead to a reduction in student services; we know it will. Why do we know this? We know this because this is exactly what has happened overseas, where exactly the same measure has been brought to bear. If ACT gets its way with the Government and that happens, then student services will suffer. Institutions will want to pick up those student services, because they will not want to see students going without. They will want to make sure that students are well supported throughout the course of their education. They will then find that they are restricted by this very bill we are debating here today. That is tragic because, by itself, this bill is actually a very good bill. It is a very good bill because it aims to contain spiralling costs for students. That is a good thing, particularly when the cost of living is out of control in New Zealand as it is. Students are facing increases to their transport costs, because of the rising cost of petrol. They have faced increases to the cost of everything they buy, because the Government increased GST. They also face increased childcare costs. I know of a number of students who have had to pull out of their studies, because they can no longer afford to have their children in early childhood education while they are studying, and that is because of that Government\u2019s cuts to that sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThese are the sorts of cost of living increases that students face anyway. The last thing they needed last year was for their levies to go up by an average of 102 percent. So I commend the Government for, even in some small way, understanding that cost of living increases are out of control, and for moving with this bill in order to contain a particular part of the problem. But unless the Government also moves to address the underlying concerns and the underlying funding pressures within the tertiary institutions, and unless the Government also wakes up and stops the bill that will gut students associations so that they cannot provide those services, then I am afraid they will be doing students a disservice. I do, however, want to lend Labour\u2019s support to this bill, because this is the good twin. I urge the Government to vote down the evil twin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002288e32237da4f42ea9ccb1ebb4f9629ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e32237da4f42ea9ccb1ebb4f9629ef\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in support of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). As chair of the Education and Science Committee, which held the hearings into the bill and reported it back to the House with some constructive changes, I would like to acknowledge the role of the select committee, including the cooperation of Opposition parties in getting this job done. I would also like to acknowledge the assistance and cooperation of the officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Immigration on behalf of the Minister for Tertiary Education has very clearly outlined the provisions of the bill, and I do not need to repeat them. I just want to say a couple of things. One is that whether we are talking about the changes to the legal framework of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, the establishment of the new Crown agency Education New Zealand, or the power that the Minister is being given to issue directions on student services fees, this is good legislation. It is aimed at, and it will achieve, greater accountability in the tertiary sector. It will achieve higher performance by the sector and it will take New Zealand tertiary education forward into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI will make just one comment about the arguments being advanced by the Labour Opposition. I am a little bit disappointed in the Opposition members\u2014although they support the bill, and we very much appreciate that\u2014for making continual linkages to a piece of legislation that, frankly, in my mind, is irrelevant to this bill. The thrust of this bill, as the Opposition well understands\u2014and I reiterate my gratitude to the Opposition for its support and its work on the select committee\u2014is all about rising quality, rising accountability, a better tertiary education system in New Zealand, and a better international student education system. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002206137e7f18f54a9aadd45798192430c0\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecc6b0e27611416dbd7dfae681d75402\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022de4406767f3f4e4b816fb53b8a2871da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de4406767f3f4e4b816fb53b8a2871da\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an answer I gave in response to oral question No. 8 this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7014df8cef44e6a9e876fe71ca29d6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? It appears not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e261f73d61481a9559013f212b98f0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I am obliged to my colleagues. Earlier this afternoon I was asked by the Hon Lianne Dalziel whether I knew whether the Attorney-General shared the concerns expressed by the judiciary about the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill. In response I said: \u201CMy memory\u2014and I stand to be corrected\u2014is that the Attorney-General gave the bill a clear vet.\u201D By way of clarification, I say that in respect of the issue of identification of issues in dispute\u2014the subject of the primary question\u2014the bill received a clean vet from the Attorney-General. However, the Attorney-General issued two section 7 reports: one relating specifically to the proposed jury trial threshold, and the other relating to three other proposals. Two of these proposals have since been amended by the Justice and Electoral Committee to address the concerns of the Attorney-General, and the third, concerning retrials, is pre-existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9b19be04fd44b118859f22a61969893\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The House has accepted the Minister\u2019s explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202eb92d57fbd49d0b0e6cd82c4a13e27\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba95a8ee2e9b4f4f8f9166acd6879e64\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000704\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229e62f097fc024280a421168bec167681\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e62f097fc024280a421168bec167681\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from the comments made by the chair of the Education and Science Committee, I want to say that the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) is good legislation. It does a number of important things. But to coin a phrase, no man is an island, and this bill cannot stand alone without being looked at in the context of other relevant legislation, and I will refer to that in a moment. Perhaps I will start with an area where the House agrees, and that is the importance of a number of the changes here, particularly those in relation to, for instance, private training establishment regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is fair to say that private training establishments play a very important role in filling the gaps in the education system that the public institutions are not able to fill. Many of them do a very good job of that and provide educational opportunities for people who, perhaps, would not get them in other ways. They also provide a part of the arrangements that allow for international students to come to New Zealand, and therefore they play an important role. But the truth is that there have been examples in recent times where private training establishments have not lived up to the marketing they have given overseas. In some extreme cases people have, essentially, allowed degrees to be bought for very little actual work or study. That is not good for the reputation of New Zealand internationally. So I think it is important that there have been some moves in this bill to tighten up the way in which private training establishments are accredited and able to offer programmes and courses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ECan I perhaps offer at this point my belief that there are one or two other areas in terms of the overall registration of private training establishments that could still be looked at to further enhance the improvements in this bill. One of those is what might appear to be quite a simple point but is actually quite important, and that is the names that private training establishments use when they market offshore. In fact, one of the cases that caused a problem in recent times around private training establishments was an institution called the New Zealand Academy of Studies, which was caught selling a business diploma for $12,000. There was a related school called the City Language Academy, which was eventually deregistered for false advertising. When an institution is overseas and markets itself as the New Zealand Academy of Studies, it gives the impression that it is a national, nationwide institution. I do believe that the time has come for us to look more carefully at whether we allow institutions to market themselves as the \u201CNew Zealand Academy\u201D or the \u201CNew Zealand Institute\u201D of something. It does give an impression, which in most cases will be false, about whether it is a nationwide institution. So I would urge the Government to think about that. I know that my colleague Raymond Huo has looked at this in terms of a member\u2019s bill, and I think it is something that should be considered, because it is an important part of the way we market tertiary institutions or private training establishments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other issue in terms of private training establishments that is not covered by the improvements in this bill is around whether there needs to be some self-policing, and whether we can get private training establishments to work together in the same ways that universities do through the organisation Universities New Zealand, and in the same ways that polytechnics do through a couple of organisations they have that bring together the institutes of technology and the polytechnics. I think that would help. It would raise the bar in terms of the quality of private training, and I think that is an important factor. So although I welcome the changes in respect of private training establishments in this bill, I think more can be done to ensure they do provide quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI want to briefly refer to the creation of Education New Zealand, the combined agency that will work on marketing and promotion of New Zealand education overseas. I welcome this change. I think it is timely to bring this exercise together. As somebody who worked in this field and travelled to Asia to help promote the institution I was working for, I can say that when we work together we do it better. We are a small country. One particular visit I was on was to Viet Nam, and we went to a meeting with a number of tertiary providers. The Vietnamese Government officials asked us whether we would be able to take 50,000 students over the next couple of years to do English language training. That was a challenging task for the institutions that were there. We could not do that, but by working together the institutions were able to take a large number of people. The bill will allow institutions to work more efficiently with the Government. It will allow Ministry of Education officials to focus on what they need to focus on and to stay focused\u2014just as Mr Quinn is. The officials will be able to make sure they have an excellent programme for promoting New Zealand education. I welcome the changes to Education New Zealand in the bill and congratulate the new chair, Mr Charles Finny, who I am sure, with his experience as a diplomat, will be able to lead that organisation. I hope that it will see the continuation of the importance of international education and export education as part of the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI now want to return to the question that dominated the Committee stage of the debate, which is around the changes to the management of compulsory student services fees. I will clarify for those new to the debate that compulsory student services fees are the kinds of fees that get charged for things in tertiary institutions like the student health and counselling services, the careers advice services, or creche facilities that might be provided by the institutions. These fees are charged by the institution. They are compulsory and they are part of enrolling. The problem emerged in recent years that there was a massive increase\u2014an over 100 percent increase in some cases\u2014of fees by tertiary institutions. One of the institutions that was singled out in the debate earlier is Canterbury University, which increased the fee enormously in 2009 and 2010. I will quote Rod Carr, the vice-chancellor of Canterbury University, when he was explaining the increase to students. Rod Carr said that students were getting a \u201Ccrap deal\u201D from the Government, which was refusing to fund higher education at the levels it should. He said: \u201CThe underlying problem is we have not been successful in advocating for more money for higher education \u2026 The Government made it very clear the real resources allocated to the universities will reduce over the next three to five years.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat is a significant problem and one that we have to acknowledge. This Government has failed to invest in tertiary education to the extent needed at this time. In a recessionary environment, more people are looking for tertiary education opportunities, and the funding has simply not been forthcoming from this Government. In fact, Minister Joyce said his goal was to dampen demand in tertiary education, which I think is the opposite of what should be happening if we are an aspirational country. If we are ambitious for New Zealand, then we need to be encouraging people into tertiary education. Unfortunately, some tertiary institutions, without the level of Government funding they wanted, have put up student services levies in reaction to that. That is wrong. That is not what they should be doing. Student services levies should be for student services. That is why I welcome this change in the bill, which will make it more transparent. There will be more accountability on institutions to provide student services with the money they generate from student services levies, and it will be possible to cap those levies if the Minister is not satisfied. The Minister will have a very hands-on role here in being able to direct institutions to the categories of student services they provide and even to the types of student services they provide. That is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I said, this bill is not an island; it exists alongside the voluntary students association membership bill\u2014I say with respect to Allan Peachey\u2014which is related for two reasons. The first of those reasons is that students associations provide important services on campus, which they now will not be able to provide if the voluntary students association membership bill passes. That is the experience from Australia: 75 percent of the services that were provided went west when the voluntary student membership bill went through over there. That will mean that those services will be transferred to the institutions to provide, and if they are working in a capped environment, then that will put a great deal of pressure on them. The other factor is that students associations will not be there to be able to be part of this decision-making process. There will be no one for the Minister to actually consult with, in terms of representatives. So the two bills are linked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI urge the Government to rethink its support for the voluntary student membership bill, because the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) in and of itself is a good thing. It will increase accountability and transparency around student services levies, but the quality of services that students will be able to get is compromised by the voluntary student membership bill, which, in turn, compromises the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). But we do support the bill. It does a number of useful things in the tertiary education sector, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d14229e974184a6586019c416bab66d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d14229e974184a6586019c416bab66d9\u0022\u003EHILARY CALVERT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to commend the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u00228ecf2846619747cdbc1842822eec3327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ecf2846619747cdbc1842822eec3327\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E There are three main aims in the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). It sets out, first, to amend the Education Act 1989 in order to strengthen the regulation of the tertiary education system by improving and modernising the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s legal arrangements; second, to facilitate the expansion of international education and safeguard the quality and reputation of the New Zealand education system; and, third, to increase transparency and accountability in the tertiary education system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThey are all good concepts: improvements, modernisation, quality, transparency, and accountability. There is nothing wrong with that, but there are some other concepts that we might add to the mix: cultural competency, inclusion, diversity, consistency, and equity. From the consultation we have had with M\u0101ori education providers, we have heard that the international student changes will have minimal effect on M\u0101ori students but could affect the future direction of organisations such as Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa in this area. We are also informed by Te Mana \u0100konga, the national M\u0101ori students association, that it opposes this bill, and it is happy for its comments to be made public. I guess this brings us to the point that the M\u0101ori Party places a great priority on ensuring that every aspect of legislation is placed under scrutiny as to its consistency with M\u0101ori world views and its impact on tangata whenua. We know that unless we provide that specific lens when looking at legislation, that voice will be absent from the debate. No other party here in Parliament is present to speak on the issues from a M\u0101ori perspective in the debate on this bill or, in fact, on any of the bills that are being put through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ETe Mana \u0100konga told us that M\u0101ori need to be represented at council level to ensure that M\u0101ori views are heard where decisions are made. This has not occurred in this bill. Te Mana \u0100konga also told us that M\u0101ori students need to be included in any group that determines key performance indicators for tertiary institutions. Again, this bill does not provide for that. Of course, a key concern for Te Mana \u0100konga, as it is for the M\u0101ori Party, is the consequences if the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill is passed into law, because if that bill succeeds, as it appears it will, it will provoke increased demand for strong M\u0101ori student representation and advocacy if associations are compromised in their ability to represent and serve students. M\u0101ori student representation must be given a seat at decision-making boards throughout the institutions to ensure consistent feedback and representation throughout. Te Mana \u0100konga supports the need for the student body and their representatives to engage with tertiary institutions on matters regarding student services levies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIn other consultation we have had with M\u0101ori students, we heard that they have the same fear that if students associations become voluntary, the assumption is that many of the services that were previously provided by students associations would be passed on to the institutions. If this was to occur, this bill gives the Minister for Tertiary Education the final say on services, so really those services could disappear altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe Education and Science Committee specifically addressed compulsory student fees, and it provided a clarification on the powers the Minister would have to determine student services fees. It also clarified that the Minister would have the power to require institutions to establish decision-making arrangements jointly or in consultation with the students enrolled at the institution. Essentially, this spells out that if the Minister so chooses, students must be involved in a determination of student services. I guess our concern remains that the incentive must start with the Minister. The \u201Cwhat ifs\u201D continue to plague us. Representatives in w\u0101nanga whom we talked to shared this concern. They were nervous that their future leadership could be constrained in their ability to provide some resources for students, because the Minister might not allow it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThey were particularly concerned about the student services fees section. In their view, we need to watch out because, with a conservative Government, M\u0101ori student services could disappear. There needs to be some recognition for services to M\u0101ori, and this bill does not enable that. The prevailing concern was that it depends largely on how the Minister for Tertiary Education uses his or her powers. If the Minister decides to cut all underperforming services in a focus on education quality, one has to wonder what compromises will be made and how these cuts would affect students. The Minister would have the power to effectively dictate the services a tertiary institution could offer, which could potentially jeopardise student services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe other key concern raised during our consultation was quality assurance and qualifications, particularly in relation to the implications for w\u0101nanga. As a result of this bill, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority will now be solely in charge of quality assurance, which means it is taking that function from universities. The w\u0101nanga are already a key part of qualifications assurance and qualifications, but their desire is that they have delegated powers for quality assurance. The changes threaten rangatiratanga by taking away the autonomy of institutions and centralising it in Government. From the point of view of w\u0101nanga, they are disappointed that w\u0101nanga will never, it seems, be able to do their own quality assurance in the future. So we continue to raise the question from w\u0101nanga as to whether the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has the capability to carry out quality assessment for a kaupapa M\u0101ori approach as well as it needs to. Universities have always been allowed to self-assess, and the w\u0101nanga are hoping that they would also have that opportunity one day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere are other good points in the bill. The M\u0101ori Party supports the Government\u2019s intent to reduce the exploitation of students by some institutions. The changes around the administration of student allowances seem reasonable in terms of enabling data to be accessible for better administration. But our other concerns, particularly in the context created by the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, mean we are honour-bound on behalf of M\u0101ori students, M\u0101ori providers, and w\u0101nanga to oppose this bill at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022912ba5f94b00410384cf0fcdbb6c92ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022912ba5f94b00410384cf0fcdbb6c92ba\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand in support of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) in its final reading, and I am pleased that members of the Opposition also support this legislation. Lifting skills is a key part of the Government\u2019s plan for economic growth in New Zealand. Part of that plan is making tertiary education more accountable and having a higher level of performance for its students, which is, of course, good for the students involved and good for tertiary education providers, but, more important, good for taxpayers and good for the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIf we look at the focus on quality we see that one of the other areas where the House has had quite a lengthy discussion is that of supporting students. I refer in particular to giving students improved transparency in terms of how student support services fees are set in order to enable there to be less of a disparity around the range of those fees, both in terms of the financial level and in terms of the services that are provided within that. So the legislation provides students with a decent voice. I have spoken quite a lot about the other changes, so I will not spend any more time on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI will give a final plug for the changes in international education, including the creation of the Crown agent Education New Zealand, which will basically unleash this country\u2019s ability to export education across the globe. Also, there were changes in the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and its legal arrangements, which were more of a technical nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to support the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). It is another fine bill brought before this House by a fine Minister who is committed to lifting performance in tertiary education. We have 16,500 more tertiary places than we have had since 2008, and I think that is a fine achievement; another one we can tick off for this fine Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002211942184c8d34c758df0d6f2d6725f4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211942184c8d34c758df0d6f2d6725f4a\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a quick call on the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). It may or may not be quick, depending on how I go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252e64c31364b4e3aa1a782dbf5c20a7f\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: Keep the emphasis on quick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f4a244e8a543ae8d4d7b05cbd7a377\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know Allan Peachey wants me to take my full 10 minutes. He looks like he is sitting on the edge of his seat. He cannot wait for me to get into it. The Labour Party supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ded2f733d3d469793d935e1ad97e675\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: He loves his own voice. He\u2019ll speak for 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8f48d568b5d46b2bed6214641e16836\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The Labour Party supports this bill, but I do have some concerns. Before I move on to those, I will talk particularly about the importance of transparency in the setting of student services levies. Increased transparency around the setting of those levies is very important. The ability of students to understand what they are paying for and to have some say in what they are charged for student services is very important. In my time at Victoria University I had a huge amount to do with the student services there, which were paid for out of a levy that covered the Student Health Service, student counselling, and a variety of services that I think all of us in the House would agree are really important to provide to students, and, therefore, it is important that they be paid for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, the question that remains is that if the Minister for Tertiary Education uses his power under this provision we are about to pass, in order to cap the amount of money that student services can charge for those services by way of a levy, then that leaves them two options: to increase user charges, or to cut student services. I know what is most likely to happen. The most likely thing to happen, unless the university, polytechnic, institution, or w\u0101nanga comes to the party and increases the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee5d760f9810435f86068a85c120a73a\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Or prospect for members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf18c8fb0748455da47e9a9a18541454\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f395400e013f419da23b4fce14968190\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t they go and get some more members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b3524f75e0b4eccb05ae79ce4683f02\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what Paul Quinn is talking about. He asks why they do not go and get some more members. I say to Paul Quinn that the institutions cannot get more students because his Government has capped the number of students whom an institution can enrol. I notice that Paul Quinn has finally woken up. It looked like he was dozing off. He might want to go back into his slumber, lest he look like more of an idiot than he already does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe issue is that tertiary institutions\u2014the universities, polytechnics, and w\u0101nanga\u2014will have a choice between increasing levies, and, if they cannot increase levies to pay for the increased cost of students services, they can introduce more part charges, more user charges for students, or they can cut services. Having seen a reasonable amount of what universities and polytechnics have done in the past, I think that they are most likely to cut student services. I think that would be a great tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe critical issue in tertiary education is making sure that the institutions are adequately resourced to deliver all of the services they need to. That includes student services, some of which are paid for by way of levy, and some of which are cross-subsidised from tuition fees. There is absolutely a cross-subsidy between tuition fees and student services, because some student services are integral to the institutions\u2019 abilities to deliver academic programmes. For example, the provision of student computing facilities is a student service, but it is absolutely integral to the ability of a student to undertake their course of study. In some institutions there may be some levy costs associated with that; in other institutions, it will simply be paid for out of the tuition fees. Transparency around that arrangement is important, and this bill delivers greater transparency. I think that is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will talk about a potentially significant increase in student levies coming up around the corner, if this Government has its way and passes Heather Roy\u2019s Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill that will introduce voluntary student membership. At the moment, students association membership is a levy, and if the tertiary institutions pick up the services provided by students associations, they will almost certainly fund that by way of a levy. In 1999, when students were given a choice between whether they wanted a compulsory or a voluntary regime for students association membership, they overwhelmingly voted for compulsory membership. It is always useful to remember that. But Victoria University, where I studied, decided that it would provide many of the services the students association provided if voluntary membership was voted for. The university would still provide subsidies for clubs, it would still provide a certain number of activities, and so on. It would have levied students for that. The university\u2019s levy would have delivered fewer services and cost more than the students association levy would have cost, because the university could not do it as cheaply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is the very real prospect that tertiary institutions will face next year. If this Government passes the bill, which it promised it would not pass but now says that it will, then tertiary institutions will face a very real dilemma: do they increase the levies that students pay, or do they cut services\u2014do they simply accept that those services will go? I suspect that in a lot of cases students will end up paying more, for less. One way or another, they will end up paying more in order to get less. That is one of the downsides of voluntary students association membership. There are many others, but we will come to those, I am sure, when the voluntary student membership bill ends up being debated in the House again. Transparency around the way those levies are set will be very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnother concern, of course, is that students at the moment have a real say on how the levies are set, because the levies that are charged by a tertiary institution are ultimately determined by the governing council. At the moment, students are guaranteed representation on that governing body. In most instances, where there is a strong students association it is done through the students association. With a voluntary regime, there is no guarantee that the quality of student representation will be maintained, and, therefore, students may not have an effective voice in having their say on the way the student services levies fixed by institutions are set. I think that that would be a great tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELabour supports the parts of this bill that introduce greater transparency around the setting of student services levies, because we have seen a significant increase in student services levies under this Government\u2014up 600 percent at Canterbury University.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d02c0203a54bcc89b71bea3486e7aa\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4b62db17824d189ed72575b1d8ac36\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Six hundred percent at Canterbury University, under this Government, and I think there should be a great amount of scrutiny around the setting of student services levies. One of the concerns that students will of course be expressing is that in an environment where institutions are choked of funding by this National Government, one option they have is to increase their revenue by increasing the amount that students pay directly for services, through increased student services levies. So placing a greater control on that is important, but of course that does not remedy the problem. It puts a control on the transfer of costs to students; it does not remedy the problem of where the institutions get the money from to provide those services in the first place. If the Government is not willing to front up with the funding, that creates very real dilemmas for the institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe price of tertiary education\u2014the amount that students are forking out\u2014has gone up 18 percent since National took office, and student services levies, of course, are only one of the causes, with tuition fees being the lion\u2019s share of that. Increased costs for tertiary education mean increased student loan balances and longer repayment times. There are a whole lot of other reasons why that is a bad idea. We want to bring down the cost of tertiary education. Of course, this is what the National Party campaigned on at the last election\u2014bringing down the cost of tertiary education. Well, no one is hearing National members talking about that any more. They are not talking about bringing down the cost of tertiary education any more, because there is irrefutable evidence that is absolutely clear: the cost of tertiary education under this National Government has gone up by over 18 percent since it took office. National has not kept its promise to keep down the costs to students, and some of the measures it is proposing, including voluntary students association membership, and further capping of the funding for tertiary institutions, will only exacerbate that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI will briefly talk about some of the other aspects of the bill that the Labour Party supports. We do support the establishment of the new export education body. That is a good thing. I encourage the Government to keep Murray McCully as far away from that as it possibly can. He has plenty of other things that he likes to meddle in, and I think he could keep his hands off the export education industry\u2014it seems to be doing pretty well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221348096cd5f540b5b09417af929dad00\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Arrogant!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d52e12a36404d9bba09309bc26a89fd\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Jonathan Coleman; Murray McCully is incredibly arrogant. He is possibly the most arrogant Minister in the Government, so I think it is important that Murray McCully be kept as far away from international education as is possible. [Interruption] Old \u201CMaestro\u201D over there\u2014maybe they should let \u201CThe Maestro\u201D take over international education. If he did as good a job of that as he did of running Melissa Lee\u2019s campaign in Mt Albert\u2014[Interruption] I want Jonathan Coleman to come and run the National Party campaign in my electorate; I really would like that. I would be quite happy to pay his air fares for him to come and run National\u2019s campaign in Rimutaka. I would be in, in a landslide, after the fantastic job that he did in Mt Albert! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOverall, to return to the bill that we are debating, the Education Amendment Bill (No 4)\u2014as tempting as it is to continue to talk about Jonathan Coleman, just because there is so much material there to work with\u2014I say that the Labour Party supports the bill. This is the final reading of the bill and we are very happy to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022870735139b8a43828ed9853c06c66499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022870735139b8a43828ed9853c06c66499\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is, indeed, a pleasure to take a brief call on the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). May I congratulate the superb chairmanship of Allan Peachey and the cooperation from all those parties on the Education and Science Committee. I would also like to acknowledge the officials. This is a bill whose time has arrived. On that basis, I commend it to the House with great conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa49cb049497432d9d0dfdf62475d480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa49cb049497432d9d0dfdf62475d480\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is nice to see the Government members working so hard to pass legislation that they are so passionate about! Labour will be supporting the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), and we are supportive of most of the provisions within it. Where we become critical is in the broad area of tertiary education and the kind of blinkered view that Government members and Ministers are taking when it comes to this legislation and the impact of other changes they are making in the tertiary education sector. There are clauses in the legislation we will pass this afternoon that may in effect become redundant or out of date within weeks of the legislation being passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ECertainly, as my colleagues have said, we support the establishment of the export education outfit. We think it is a good idea to get standards in that area. Too many organisations have been going overseas and calling themselves the \u201CNew Zealand institute\u201D of such and such, which carries with it a certain expectation of quality, which, unfortunately, has not been there in many cases. We believe that regulation in this area will be for the benefit of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe only part of this bill, really, that has been contentious is the setting of student levies. This really does need to be looked at in the broader sense of the funding for the tertiary education sector and the current environment it finds itself in. Although the capping of levies that can be charged to students is a good thing\u2014we absolutely agree, with that and we have seen across the country that student levies have shot up\u2014and we want to be able to reduce the cost of tertiary education to our students as much as we can, the fact is that we cannot look at that in isolation. We need to look at the reasons why those student levies have increased as dramatically as they have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat we know is that because of funding cuts in the tertiary sector, tertiary institutions have been cross-subsidising. They have been using the student levy to pay for things such as staffing. Staffing is a core function of any university or polytechnic or any other tertiary institution around the country, and they have been paying for staffing out of the student levy. Because they have had their core funding from the Government so constrained\u2014and we heard from the comments of the vice-chancellor of Canterbury University that they have basically been told that funding will go backwards over the next 3 to 5 years under this Government\u2014they have had to look elsewhere in order to fund things that have traditionally come from Government funding. One of those things has been something as core as staffing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI remember the first Budget introduced by this National-led Government. One of the first things it did was cut the assistance fund, which enabled tertiary institutes to bring experienced academics out to New Zealand to work in our universities, to add to their research programme, and to add to the quality of teaching. That is something that goes on in every country around the world. Tertiary institutions are constantly involved in a transfer of knowledge and a transfer of the individuals who carry that knowledge. But the reality is that in order to be able to match the salaries that these individuals are able to attract from other countries, there needs to be a little bit of assistance. There was a fund there that enabled tertiary institutions to do that, and that funding has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWell, tertiary institutions will not want to see their standing in the world go backwards because of this. They naturally look to other areas to supplement their funding for such things as bringing overseas experts into this country to add value to the tertiary education sector in this country. One of the areas that has been looked at is the area of the student levy. Well, that is not what the student levy was proposed for, and in that respect we support the Minister\u2019s ability to say very clearly what the student levy is for, and that students deserve to know what their levy will pay for. They deserve to know how it will be set and they deserve to have input into that process. But that cannot be divorced from the core issue, which is a constraining of funding in the tertiary education sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat is why the tertiary institutions have done it. They have not done it because they want to rip students off, and they have not done it because they are wasting money. They are doing it because their funding from the Government is going backwards. Government members have not referred to this in any way when they have been speaking. They have looked at this bill in isolation from the reality for our tertiary education sector, particularly for universities. On this side of the House we support the provisions in this bill. But one cannot look at it in isolation; this legislation does not exist in a vacuum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe idea that National is aspirational for New Zealand is a joke, quite frankly, if one of the most important sectors in this country will end up going backwards in international rankings because of funding cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a81634748a423380fa1af2fade3b95\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de485da0c739414a956c9a08aaa351d3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am interested to see the member from Hamilton guffawing at that. Of course, the university in the city he lives in is also not happy about the constrained funding environments under this Government. So he can guffaw all he wants, but he knows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1206010c4054859b97a33d25f685cee\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022181f550377a04b748d63a01096bfed93\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what his name is, but he knows very well what I am talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe other area in which we cannot look at this legislation in isolation is in relation to the legislation currently being put forward by the ACT Party on voluntary student membership. Currently in most of our universities in New Zealand we have a system where we have compulsory student membership of student associations. The fee is not all that expensive. Membership provides an extraordinary amount of benefit for the fee that is paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EFor those members of a student association who really strongly object, there are conscientious objector provisions in the legislation that they can use if they want to. But the reality is that most students are happy with the services provided by their student association. They know that the services are a lot cheaper than they would be if they had to pay for them outside the student association, and they know that the student associations provide their services on a much, much more cost-effective basis than if the institutions were providing them or if they had to go out privately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am talking about services like medical services, gym services, creche, food banks, hardship, tutoring, and counselling for students who are undergoing stressful situations. A whole range of services is provided, as well as all the clubs on campus and the events run by the student association. As part of that, as well, they have an elected executive that is involved in the running of the university and in the decisions that are made in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo one would have to wonder what is so broke that it needs to be fixed, because all it needs is for 10 percent of students to sign a petition to say that they do not like compulsory membership and they want to have a vote on it, and the student association could go voluntary. Waikato University, which is in Mr Bennett\u2019s city, did that. That student association went voluntary and the whole thing fell apart, just like student associations did in Australia, where 75 percent of student services were lost. The whole thing fell apart. Do members know what? They had to bring it back. They voted to bring it back because voluntary student membership was such a resounding failure. Yet here we are again. The reason that is relevant to this legislation can be found in new section 227A(1)(c), which is to be inserted in the Education Act 1989 by clause 26 of this bill. The new section requires the Minister, when he is setting the student levy, when he is deciding what it will pay for, and when he is deciding how high it will be set, where it will be capped, and all these things, to see that arrangements have been made \u201Cfor decisions to be made jointly or in consultation with the students enrolled at the institution, or their representatives\u201D\u2014or their representatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWell, if voluntary student membership goes through, the students will not have representatives. So whom will they consult? At the moment it is quite clear. At the moment there is a democratically elected student association executive to consult. Whom will they consult? Will they consult the Young Nats on campus or ACT on Campus? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205d9997de7df46aabc9e740d1fcfc5e4\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019ll hand-pick them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c9dbc995e94a558175a8c0e29f9033\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Of course they will\u2014they will hand-pick them. But at the moment we have a system that is not broken, that is cost-effective, and that works amazingly well, providing good-quality services for students at a price they can afford, which is often free of charge. We have had cases where universities in New Zealand have gone voluntary and have come back because voluntary membership was such a resounding failure. More important, under the legislation there was a clear, clear organisation for the university to consult on matters pertaining to students. In new section 227A(1)(c), in clause 26, the Government will be requiring tertiary institutions to consult students, yet, in their blinkered view, Government members who promised not to support voluntary student membership legislation at the last election\u2014breaking that promise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a54488cddff41ce878cce280f714a17\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: No, we didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf6a1248c6344138d8f7accb4aec088\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Jo Goodhew to ask Paul Hutchison. He went to the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association conference and promised that National would not support this legislation. Well, we may be looking at legislation here that will be out of date within weeks if that voluntary student membership legislation goes through, and I do not think that that is good lawmaking. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002213ecf3cdd17d4c2397c88ed8f661efba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ecf3cdd17d4c2397c88ed8f661efba\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E My call will be brief; it really has already been said. The Education Amendment Bill (No 4) is about National\u2019s key message. We believe in getting the most out of every dollar that the taxpayers of New Zealand spend on tertiary education. We also want to know that students are getting value for money. We want better performance from students and the tertiary education organisations, and we want a simpler funding system. We are committed to supporting students and moving towards a more accountable, higher-performing tertiary education sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EMany members opposite have commended this bill and have said that it is a good bill, and I also believe that that heads us in exactly the right direction. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee7488bc841148189a3b3c866f24e736\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 42; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227014f87ca4d943298da132bedb45d77e\u0022\u003EAquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c34c8076fd51488497c9d14b73517cd3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb13b89cec4949cd84fc8403d4ab9064\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7869186b351437893fee784bc5ecb0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7869186b351437893fee784bc5ecb0f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on Part 1 includes schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfdf0be14bdb48c6b88db04337914278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfdf0be14bdb48c6b88db04337914278\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture):\u003C/span\u003E This part includes measures to transition the existing marine farming industry into the new law with minimal disturbance and no loss of rights or certainty. The processing of the last remaining pre-moratorium applications, which are now a decade old, will be able to be completed from the commencement of the new law. The processing of applications frozen under the current law will, in most cases, be able to resume on the commencement of the new law. The aquaculture unit within the Ministry of Fisheries\u2014which has now been merged with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2014has worked closely with local authorities to help them get ready for this. The amount of space that is created for aquaculture from those outstanding applications will depend on the decisions of applicants and the outcome of the consent process. What is important is that the process can now move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to inform the Committee that I am not proceeding with the following amendments: on Supplementary Order Paper 264 the amendment entitled \u201CNew Schedule 2: paragraph 4\u201D, and on Supplementary Order Paper 265 the amendment entitled \u201CSchedule 1: new Schedule 2\u201D. These changes are superseded by the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 278.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0c7ddbf0baa4089b7661961e6cdd803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0c7ddbf0baa4089b7661961e6cdd803\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Labour members will be supporting the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3). I note that we are at the Committee stage, and I want to work through a number of important issues. As is often the case when we support legislation pertaining to a particularly important industry, it is capable of generating more employment, which is a rather rare phenomenon given the stewardship of the Government in its broader economic obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut putting that aside, there are two areas in which, despite our reservations, we will back this bill. I acknowledge that the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, has made a considerable effort to address the broad array of interests. On one side we have residual M\u0101ori concerns, and on the other side we have concerns pertaining not only to the industry with its investment in both aquaculture and quota ownership but also, in particular, to those who fear arrogating to central government in the form of the Minister the ability to influence and allocate consents relating to the occupation of space. We have all these kinds of apprehensions, but we do feel, despite the fact that the Minister will have the ability to effect these resource management and coastal plan changes, that the deeper challenge is something that is really a \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D story. I mean that it is a bold challenge. It is $1 billion a year worth of export receipts. Unfortunately\u2014the Minister may not recall it; I think it was in 1992-93\u2014the Hon Doug Kidd had a similar heroic goal in mind way back then, to generate $1 billion worth of export receipts. Not everything we did in our golden reign of the last 9 years kicked a goal. This is an area in which changes were made, and I think the rule of unforeseen consequences reminds us that what we do in Parliament and what we delegate down to our bureaucrats to do does not necessarily make sense in relation to people investing, taking a risk, and growing an industry. We always need to be vigilant if we are to crimp the ability of people to enjoy participative democracy. That is the model we have for resource management in New Zealand. We have sought to marry an ideal of social democracy against resource management. We need to be vigilant that we do not swing too far, because if we do, then nothing will ever happen. All sorts of parties believe they have an almost divine right to participate, and end up hobbling those who, with the greatest will in the world, burn too much money before they can go to consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESecondly, I, and no doubt my colleague as well, will talk about the test on how we strike a balance between the people who have legal rights to harvest fish within defined areas, and those who want to occupy those areas for marine farming. I think this Minister has the balance about right\u2014well, to the extent that we are prepared to back it. It is important that an industry like this maintains the reputation that when we sell our product overseas\u2014and this is why the allocation of resource consents is essential\u2014we are selling not just the commodity or the organism but also a brand and an experience. At all times, irrespective of who is enjoying the privilege of holding the benches of Treasury, when we compromise that we worsen our ability to make inroads into the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is no shortage of competitors around the world that are more than capable of disgracing our New Zealand name by taking our product and passing it off as something that in actual fact does not reflect what we are capable of generating and selling. It is important that the host environment that creates the produce is subject to a high level of vigilance, but that vigilance must not turn into an opportunity for far too many nit-pickers to participate in the process. Unfortunately, I have had experience of this. In the 1990s we sought to create a marine fish farm off the coast of Whangarei. After we had blown, as I recall, $600,000, $700,000, and still counting we were still no further ahead and no closer to establishing it, as a consequence of the bike-riding, spectacle-wearing, and book-reading Queen\u2019s Counsel lawyers from Auckland who had baches there. They denied us, who were taking a risk and creating, in this vacant space of the ocean, a business. What were we going to do? We were going to generate jobs and try\u2014odd as it might sound to the current Government\u2014to generate wealth through the export in value-added form of New Zealand\u2019s clean, green produce. A number of these hapless individuals who have far more money than sense visited their connections and networks upon us struggling Northlanders\u2014largely of M\u0101ori extraction\u2014as we sought to create this marine fish farm. That is what I mean. Too many parties were enjoying, as a consequence of being of privileged status\u2014that is, being Queen\u2019s Counsel lawyers, being married to Queen\u2019s Counsel lawyers, or seeing Queen\u2019s Counsel lawyers on the side, but that is another matter\u2014the ability to frustrate that development. I fear that if we are not vigilant, then some of the innovations that are being made here could also fall prey to similar excesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHaving said that, we should back the industry, because how will we create the jobs for our mokopuna, for our children in New Zealand, unless from time to time, with a focus on primary produce, we back it? There will be elements in the industry who will be h\u014Dh\u0101, as we say in the Ng\u0101puhi language, or exasperated, that they do not get everything they need, but the fishing and aquaculture industry cannot be driven exclusively for the benefit of the big end of town. This particular industry represents an opportunity for tangata whenua, and this is part of what has been fixed up in this bill. It was started in our time and has been refined by the current Minister and his officials. I say to the Minister that one day, hopefully very soon, he will be gone from that chair. It will be left to bureaucrats and to the future. I see a rising sun in the future, shining with powerful rays of wealth on the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a569d4c7c45647e6905ec41321ae2417\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Eternal optimist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220b1a19a93e14ef9998df4a85e966c24\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: There is a member from over there in Taranaki. His head is starting to look like the snowcapped peak of Mount Taranaki. Unfortunately, the last time I checked, Mount Taranaki did not have flecks of grey hair; it was all white. Anyway, I come back to the bill and remind members that there is a brilliant opportunity for M\u0101ori to advance in this industry, but the signal needs to go out to our own M\u0101ori people. Fortunately, the hearing aid that Mr Quinn uses is not working in the Chamber. The Committee will travel a lot more smoothly as a consequence of that, and it might sound a lot more lucid as a consequence, so whoever has given him that hearing aid should please repeat it. We need multiple hearing aids, and we might need a special one for Tau Henare, but that should probably be put in the mouth, not the ear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHowever, I come back to reminding members that those M\u0101ori investors who want to advance their Treaty settlement interests that are advanced in this bill need to ensure that their decisions are not like an island unto themselves. There is no way in the world that we will develop this industry without that, and neither should we rely on large dollops of overseas investment alone to develop this industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is a proposal off the coast of \u014Cp\u014Dtoki. This is a free-ranging debate. I see that a member on the other side of the Chamber\u2014I know she is P\u0101keh\u0101 and from the South Island\u2014is trying to practise one of those little hakas that were happening at Sir Paul\u2019s mate. She is bringing her hands close now; I presume that means she is clapping the fact that for once the member for Whangarei has been able to convince his fellow Northlander to agree with something, but that is reflective of the feedback that we have taken from the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe commend this bill and we will not be protracting the contributions, as befits parliamentarians who know that they really have to work hard to earn their living here, unlike members on the other side of the Chamber. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6d07973cd35495f912d8e3ee0147ba6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6d07973cd35495f912d8e3ee0147ba6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In the short time before the break I will make a speech supporting the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), as my good colleague Shane Jones has, but I will point out a couple of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI went down to look at a couple of Supplementary Order Papers that have been tabled by the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. There are about six of them, and that is very much the nature of fisheries legislation, I have to say. Try as we might in this House to make good legislation, time and time again in fisheries and aquaculture we have made mistakes. Everyone in this House wants aquaculture to develop and move forward, and I commend the Minister for his attempts, but having to table in the Committee at the last minute another three Supplementary Order Papers and amendments would indicate that there are probably within the bill other mistakes. They will be exposed by the industry, no doubt in a court of law, as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe want to see aquaculture grow. In fact all the indications internationally are that aquaculture is where we will get a large amount of fish protein to fill the growing world population. It will be through good aquaculture. We have some of the best science in the world, and we have some of the best water, but we have been hampered not by politicians necessarily, and not by bureaucrats, but by the industry. We have a quota management system that has allocated rights to individuals and companies to fish amounts of a set quota, laid down by the Minister, in the wild fish fishery. When aquaculture proposals come and impact on that area, we end up with some debates that have been lengthy and protracted. There have been some very sad outcomes for individuals through the long legal battles that we have seen, and in fact those battles have not finished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere is one key Supplementary Order Paper. It is Supplementary Order Paper 265, and it is the Minister\u2019s attempt to try to resolve the battlefield that has hampered aquaculture development, involving the rights of existing quota holders versus the intentions and wishes of those people who want to further develop aquaculture. I set aside the speculators. No way in the world do I want to support people who just want space to sell on\u2014they can take a walk. But where there are people who genuinely want to put ropes in the water and develop new, innovative ways of growing aquaculture, we want to help them. This Supplementary Order Paper lays down a process whereby the holders of quota will have their rights upheld, but must accept some compromise to allow aquaculture to move forward. Without this compromise, and without the arbitration laid down in the Supplementary Order Paper, we could still be battling in the courts for another 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u002243a65f97232948ad80afeeb35d95063d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243a65f97232948ad80afeeb35d95063d\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), which Labour supports. This legislation was really started by the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThis whole issue of aquaculture has, in a way, bothered me, because although this country has done very well with animal farming\u2014with dairy farming, sheep farming, and all that\u2014we have not, so far, done as well in the aquaculture area. We have been saying that aquaculture is a billion-dollar industry and that we are hoping to achieve a billion-dollar export industry by 2025, but still, despite a lot of work going on in legislative terms, the industry has not really achieved the status that I would have liked to see it achieve years ago. Successive Governments have tried to improve aquaculture, but there have been difficulties not only with the legislation but also on the ground. We established aquaculture management areas, but they have not really worked. This bill will remove the requirement for aquaculture management areas, and I think that is a good move, but, having said that, there are a number of issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAs we go through the Committee stage, we will note there are concerns for the industry. Clearly, one of those concerns is about the undue adverse effects test. My colleague Damien O\u2019Connor has put forward an amendment to ensure that that part of the bill is improved. The industry has not been very happy with the process, if you like, and proposes that the legislation should require a collective action process for negotiating aquaculture agreements, and should provide flexibility. That is one of the areas that really has not worked in the aquaculture area as well as it has done in the meat and dairy cooperatives. The aquaculture industry has not come around to working together, and I hope that with this bill the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture will have achieved some balance. I commend him for achieving that balance, and I think he has done well in trying to get more flexibility going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EOf course, there are other issues, which will come up later, in terms of the power of the Minister. I think that some industry players, some recreational fishers, and some other people are saying that the bill gives the Minister a dictatorial power, but, overall, I think this bill will allow, and we are hoping it will allow, for additional aquaculture farming, which this country definitely needs going forward. We have not done well compared with Australia, for example. The Primary Production Committee went to South Australia a while ago and we looked at what the industry is doing there. It appears that, at least in South Australia, the industry does very well, but New Zealand has still not really made major strides in promoting aquaculture. I would call this bill a work in progress and, going forward, we need to continuously work on this area. I hope that with the passing of the bill we will have a much-improved aquaculture industry in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EWith those few words on Part 1, I think it is important for us to realise, once again, that the Minister has, overall, done a good job in bringing this bill to the House. We did quite a bit of work in the select committee, obviously, in terms of improving the bill. I thank the chair of the select committee, too. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5075f12fea4c488eca754919926d35\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: We have some amendments. The question will be that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 to the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 and Supplementary Order Paper 265 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00227182b7fd2f024ea7abff7105d067c8c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227182b7fd2f024ea7abff7105d067c8c5\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could I just have a point of clarification, please? Are these amendments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b623b7099a6411ca51536b78bb40dcc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will explain. The Minister in his speech explained that two amendments on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 would be withdrawn, so we have amendments to the amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a3bd818502643bf899b04a549b152cf\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So he has amended his amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5aea4d58871443c8b1faabe0ec349ff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db40ecb68e634ea993c26cbe87069322\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to be clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea77ae470ecf48ac9bdb04982f3d0866\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: We are not getting into a debate. I will now put the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264s 265 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203e45a2c53974037b52ccf11acc7199d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 89\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 25; ACT New Zealand 2 (Douglas, Roy H); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; ACT New Zealand 3 (Boscawen, Calvert, Hide); Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ad64ee85d234c9da5fcca925a210ed8\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Fisheries Act 1996\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b3bb4b3c5841209278b9d460a40dde\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is on clauses 31 to 48A, and schedules 1A and 1B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022884aff086fbe44f5bb79e94b1f3258ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884aff086fbe44f5bb79e94b1f3258ad\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture):\u003C/span\u003E This part makes changes to the Fisheries Act 1996, which is the principal statute governing the management of New Zealand\u2019s fisheries resources. The impact of aquaculture on fishing is managed through the process known as the undue adverse effects\u2014or UAE\u2014test. The bill as reported back by the Primary Production Committee places emphasis on agreements being reached between aquaculture applicants and commercial fishing quota holders. However, the bill in its present form does not necessarily enable the best-value use of the coastal marine area between commercial fishing and aquaculture. If a proposed aquaculture activity will have an undue adverse effect on commercial fishing, the aquaculture activity can proceed only with the consent of quota holders, even if the proposed marine farm would deliver much greater returns. Supplementary Order Paper 265 therefore proposes further changes to provide for a better balance between the interests of wild catch commercial fishing and those of aquaculture. The principal amendment is to clause 46, to insert new sections 186ZN to 186ZR into the Fisheries Act 1996. This is about better balancing the interests of commercial fishing quota holders with those of marine farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe existing Fisheries Act 1996 protections for non-quota management stocks and for customary and recreational fishing remain unchanged. The changes introduced by the Supplementary Order Paper will, firstly, provide that independent arbitration may be sought if agreement cannot be reached; secondly, require the independent arbiter to determine whether the aquaculture activity has materially more value to New Zealand than the commercial fishing in that space; and, thirdly, provide for a methodology to be established in regulations to determine the value of the proposed aquaculture activity, the affected commercial fishing, and the compensation payable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn addition to the amendments I have already indicated, I have tabled an additional minor technical amendment to Supplementary Order Paper 277.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002290c74dd5f01646718fceb8bbf40f9f23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c74dd5f01646718fceb8bbf40f9f23\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This has been one of the most confounding aspects of this reform: how to strike the balance in terms of the undue adverse effects test between quota owners who obviously need considerable access to parts of the ocean to harvest their fish, and those who want to exploit that portion of the coastal environment to grow something arguably of greater value than the scattered number of trevally, snapper, blue cod, or whatever the case might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOne of the most egregious examples of where aquaculture development has been held hostage can be found in the Tasman area. This reform and this set of changes arguably crimp or narrow\u2014certainly deflate\u2014the expectations of quota owners, and potentially narrow the application of what their quota rights actually entitle them to. The very important point that is made here is that all the industry will not agree with this, but there will be an opportunity for those who are quota holders, quota owners, etc. to enjoy a level of compensation. One hopes, however, that that compensation will not be excessive, because at the end of the day what I think has been correctly captured in this small portion of the reform is that having a quota to fish is having an entitlement to extract something from the ocean. It is not having an entitlement to an excusive level of possession to parts of the ocean. That might happen where a tai-\u0101-pure or a M\u0101ori m\u0101taitai seafood reserve is created, or, indeed, a new fish farm, which is an idea that has taken a long time to materialise, unfortunately, but is a great idea. So we will be supporting this portion of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI make reference to the fact that there are some liberal references in Part 2 to the High Court. It is obvious that in the tradition of fisheries politics, the fishing industry, and the application of regulation to the fishing industry, much of what we are currently talking about will wend its way, unfortunately, to the High Court, because it is a very litigious area. But the main point of why we are very keen to support it is that it is finally going to give a process that recognises the rights of quota owners, but to a point, and it does not inhibit the expansion of marine farming and aquaculture, which arguably is going to generate for \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D a greater return. For those reasons, Part 2 is supported by members on this side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00229d1c178864184637a4097fdf3ed26b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d1c178864184637a4097fdf3ed26b48\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call on the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) just to say once again, as my colleague the Hon Shane Jones just said, that this bill received very emotional submissions from a number of submitters to the Primary Production Committee, particularly from recreational fishers and from customary fishers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI think this bill is a balancing act in terms of trying to protect the quota holders as well as take into account the wishes and the concerns of recreational fishers and customary fishers. As has been said before, there is opportunity for those who feel aggrieved to take their case to the High Court. Since 2003 there have been only about 10 cases that have gone through this process over concerns about undue adverse effects. I think only two of those cases have been upheld. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EWith those few words, we support this change in the bill in terms of the undue adverse effect on the quota holders. Also at the same time we make a note of the fact that the other fishers are also concerned about this particular clause. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in his name to section 186ZIA(4)(b) in clause 43A be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003Eto omit \u201Cmakes a determination under section 186ZP(5)\u201D and substitute \u201Ca determination under section 186ZP(5)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAmendments to amendments agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 to Part 2 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022480f9cc1c5c9445094cfcead2f8e913e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 89\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 25; ACT New Zealand 2 (Douglas, Roy H); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; ACT New Zealand 3 (Boscawen, Calvert, Hide); Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228389df0d6cf143dda1d347d18eec685a\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022068ecc84022e4acb9751b2ffa63c45d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022068ecc84022e4acb9751b2ffa63c45d0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture):\u003C/span\u003E Before I explain a little about this part I would like to thank the Iwi Leaders Group chaired by Matiu Rei for its input, and also the aquaculture iwi advisers: Justine Inns, Laws Lawson, and Keir Volkerling. Without their valuable input the Government would not be in the position today to propose such a strong amendment to the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to upholding the M\u0101ori commercial aquaculture claims settlement. The bill as introduced in November 2010 included provisions to ensure the Crown would be able to fulfil its obligations, but at that time I signalled those provisions might be revised later in the legislative process if engagement between the Crown and iwi identified a better mechanism for delivering the settlement. That team found that mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe new provisions introduced by Supplementary Order Paper are the outcome of a process of engagement and consultation over several months. The proposed mechanism is the best possible compromise between the preferences of iwi and those of the Crown. That mechanism will enable the settlement to be delivered through regional agreements in a way that best fits iwi aspirations and preferences, region by region\u2014a one-size-fits-all approach is not appropriate. The new provisions provide the flexibility for regional agreements to deliver on the Crown\u2019s commitment as new space becomes available for marine farming over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe new mechanism recognises iwi\u2019s likely preference for space but provides flexibility for cash or other deliverables to form all or part of the settlement package by agreement between the Crown and iwi or where the provision of the space is not practical. The proposal is common sense. It is an approach that recognises the interests of iwi in a regional way and the Crown\u2019s interest in removing uncertainty for mainstream marine farmers. Iwi, the wider aquaculture industry, and the country as a whole all stand to benefit from iwi participation. If iwi do well, if Shane Jones does well, then we all do well. In addition to the amendments I have already indicated, I have tabled an additional minor technical amendment to Supplementary Order Paper 277.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb0c76b30a84492b496e4b2e808d9d5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Shane Jones\u2014honourable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e00d81f1385e4c198d6272cd4f68b0e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e00d81f1385e4c198d6272cd4f68b0e1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E At least there is someone left in New Zealand who is prepared to use that not in the form of an epithet, anyhow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EPart 3 of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) deals with our M\u0101ori entitlements. But I have to say that when we reform legislation that deals with M\u0101ori entitlements, it is a portentous development when an amendment is moved upon an amendment. I want the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, to shortly take a small call and remove his hands from his pants. There is a great M\u0101ori proverb about that, but for fear of lowering the tone of the Committee I will not go quite there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6457bf8a624fe29467af3b9a9a4eab\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I thought it was Confucius.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275fdf609f5b34a0890c7c1047d2ea683\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Bridges insists that I do. A rough English translation is \u201CKeep the balls in the air\u201D. That is what it sort of means. Maintain one\u2019s political dexterity by managing multiple agendas, but take one\u2019s hands out of one\u2019s pants. Te Ururoa Flavell agrees, etc. Anyway, let me come back to this. The Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1fdc3ff29c74814be6c390b9d3f1949\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve heard the one that Ross Robertson said in caucus one time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b400862c0f9c4e08b0bbedad46ef81a0\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a76e9134b047cfae81540683730776\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: This caucus has got too many balls in the fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9edc090051349c39fab5b2915cbe41f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Given that I am still on the road to redemption with my own caucus, I will not continue that analogy from my faithful but feckless mentor, Mr Mallard. He obviously contemplates a future for me that does not have a level of ascension. So I will avoid repeating what he said about the more liberal-minded doubting Thomases I call my friends. I only hope it is reciprocated one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fab81879d28473da0f615040abc4052\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022252da00a70ec4353b1e130c291c87847\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: This is about M\u0101oris. M\u0101oris are from the universe right down to the bosom of the earth, etc. However, let me continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs members recall, when the Sealord deal was done there was a residual element that was not adequately addressed, and that pertains to the obligations of the Crown in respect of marine farming. A 20 percent deal was entered into. I remember that being quite a sweet day, because I was in the fortunate position of being the chair of the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission at that time. Unfortunately, as time has gone on, what we thought we did did not actually turn out to be quite as user-friendly. I say that, as the Minister has pointed out, any M\u0101ori thing to do with resources will always require a great deal of tenacity when one gets to the allocation of these resources or these entitlements. Fortunately, in clauses 58 and 59 there has been a fair degree of thought. I think the experience of the fisheries settlement has been applied to that portion of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is important when these areas are identified that we ensure that there is a fair representation of the available space to the iwi of the area\u2014that they are not left with just some political or cultural form of the runt of the litter. Not all space is created equal in the eyes of the investor; some space is capable of generating better returns. I only hope that as the Minister grows in confidence and improves his adherence to good constitutional practice, we will actually see more of the areas around the coastline through the aquaculture industry dedicated to settling not only M\u0101ori claims but M\u0101ori interests in a way that moves them into the modern end of aquaculture, not stuck in the commodity traps, etc. M\u0101ori are the owners of quota, the applicants of customary m\u0101taitai seafood reserves, participants in coastal planning, and also now investors in aquaculture. It is important in getting the right balance between all of those that we do not clog the system with too much regulation, or clog the system with people spending too much time litigating or arguing against each other. That will be inversely related to wealth creation. But, broadly speaking, we considered this during the course of the select committee consideration. A small number of improvements have been made, but we support Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2cf6100a33a4850994d670ca573177a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2cf6100a33a4850994d670ca573177a\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, a question. I would like to know from the Minister in respect of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) how many amendments he has moved to which he has moved amendments. I think it is very important for us to have some figures. And how confident is the Minister that his amendments to the amendments do not require further amendments? We are in his hands on this. We would like to take the Minister on trust. We know he works very hard at this, but we would be very interested to know how many amendments the Minister has moved to amendments, whether we will have any amendments to the amendments to the amendments, and whether they are reliable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in his name be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto omit from the proposed amendments to clause 50(2) the second amendment to paragraph (a) of the definition of new space.;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto omit from the amendment to clause 50(2) new paragraph (aa); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto insert the following item after the item relating to clause 50(2):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EClause 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ETo add the following subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E(2)\tSection 5(1) is amended by inserting the following paragraph after paragraph (a):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u201C(aa)\tincludes any authorisations provided to the trustee by a regional council in accordance with an Order in Council under section 165I, or a notice in the Gazette under section 165L, of the Resource Management Act 1991, for the purpose of giving effect to the Crown\u2019s obligations under this Act; and\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a3ace46c3e4f36971f0e39ba03149c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The next question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments, as amended, as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277, to amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say Aye\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb12650e46dd4368abb2f2693a7aa8e5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8aa4297f8964248834b9ad145da0641\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b5292ee72d47b7a493139da206bbbd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d741b2654b640509df8950bdd148e8e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It can only be a point of order once I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19994b160014ee99154fb7cce95d06d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, we have not had a closure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ead322fa704490ca0bb0d80d89bbaf0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: We do not need to have a closure. No one took the call, and I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358952e92889406da319845e7686588b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229223fd6655f408aac9a4445a98a8ddc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No one took a call. I proceeded with the questions, so we are now doing the questions. That is what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d15df167334690b5c9ef154ea28bd3\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I know that the rules have changed over the years, but unless the rules have changed, when an amendment\u2014or even an amendment to an amendment and an amendment\u2014has been dealt with, we are still faced with a live question. The live question is that the part, as amended by the amendment as amended, stand part. That is the question that is before the Committee now. It is a different question from what was there before, and it is my understanding that one can take a call. If we had had a closure, of course, one could not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b19a212d4ff4f9381aab4dbd9b6af81\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I just refer to Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/1: \u201CIn committee, when no member wishes to speak further to a question, whether or not a closure has been moved, the chairperson proceeds to put all amendments \u2026\u201D. I shall continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278083616cae84bbaa06631c459c65bc0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can you let us know when you have put all of the amendments, because I want to speak at that point to the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b563cd7dd87c4e4b92ef607b56f2617b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It is my understanding that the part is to be voted on at that point. Yes, I am correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c3699a20dee446ef8d81b049ab017031\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 88\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 24; ACT New Zealand 2 (Douglas, Roy H); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; ACT New Zealand 3 (Boscawen, Calvert, Hide); Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afcf4ab6589b4e46b973ce5e5fcc6e8c\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Resource Management Act 1991\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a9afe3931d4a018532458db0250260\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on this part includes clauses 60 to 101 and schedules 2 and 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf4eb82f6ba2417d8460e7aa24de0688\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf4eb82f6ba2417d8460e7aa24de0688\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture):\u003C/span\u003E This part of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) is the part on which the Ministry of Fisheries team worked tirelessly with those in the industry, councils, Te Ohu Kaimoana, iwi across the country, and a large number of interested parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis part amends the Resource Management Act 1991 to streamline aquaculture planning and consenting. It simplifies aquaculture planning by removing the requirement for aquaculture management areas to be established before consent applications can be made. This will put aquaculture on the same footing as other coastal activities and will enable councils to plan for it in a similar way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EPart 4 provides for a new ministerial power to recommend making regulations that will enable the Government to help councils change their plans where change is needed and cannot be achieved through the existing mechanisms. This bill provides for a minimum consent term of 20 years, in most cases, to provide the industry with an incentive to invest. However, it is important to note that this is not a default. We want terms to be longer. I will be explicit: 20 years is a minimum, not a target. We would like it to be much higher\u2014up to 35 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAchieving substantial growth in the aquaculture industry requires a shift to higher-value species, including finfish. The bill makes changes to Tasman and Waikato regional coastal plans to enable applications for consent to farm a wider range of species, including finfish. In Waikato it also allows applications to be made for small extensions to existing farms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EChanges are proposed to schedule 3 of the bill, which contains amendments to the Waikato Regional Coastal Plan to establish a 300-hectare marine farming zone off Coromandel. This 300-hectare zone presents a strategic opportunity to enable New Zealand\u2019s marine farming industry to develop and achieve its goal of $1 billion in annual sales by 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad2b2c373fca4b5d872c4d00d8a103e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad2b2c373fca4b5d872c4d00d8a103e4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to the people of Whangarei who watched their member, the Hon Phil Heatley. We sought to improve his general presentation by warning him about his collar. He continued to keep his hand in his pants. I cannot comment on whether there is a connection in that regard. But it is important that I come back to the matters at hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe heard from Sandra Goudie about fish farming, etc., in the Coromandel. How many years has that member wandered around, destroying the roads and worsening the environment? In the final portion of her largely undistinguished career, a small\u2014a tiny\u2014part of the Hauraki Gulf is dedicated to fish farming, and we are meant to see that as some sort of super victory. If the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture was genuine in regard to fish farming up and down Aotearoa, as we say in M\u0101ori, there would not be a wahap\u016B, a harbour, a bay, or a cove blocked. This is a very small zone, and unfortunately I fear, because Doug Kidd was involved in establishing the zone, that it could be located in the wrong area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHaving said that, we are prepared to be magnanimous and we are prepared to take into account the overarching interests of our nation and not focus on the member from that Coromandel - T\u012Bkapa Moana area. In all seriousness, though, we wish her well in whatever mangrove tree she might strike in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf31c40fc9554f94a4aae6f3674186a1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a648e59768f41a68c81f340cdfd5b90\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: We do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI feel the need for constitutional propriety, having talked about mangroves and that member. That sort of suggests impropriety. It is important that I come back to the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), because\u2014I do not need to read the bill; I know exactly what this portion is dealing with\u2014we support the ability of local government, etc., and central government to improve the economic output in the area of Waikato and in the area of Tasman, ensuring that where suitable, we can actually farm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to know when members on that side of the House will consent to the farming of trout. They boast their credentials. Their echo chamber, otherwise known as Federated Farmers, has all sorts of interesting things to say about trout. When will we see a suitable level of boldness in that regard? I predict that in many of the areas set aside we may see kingfish, but, as the M\u0101oris of the far north have learnt, that is an exercise in fiscal self-immolation. We may see h\u0101puku, and I wonder whether we will see any sea horses. [Interruption] I have been warned by Grant Robertson, the mild-mannered liberal to my left: \u201CJonesy, don\u2019t go there. Keep going, keep going. You were doing reasonably well until you lapsed in that regard.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this part. It will not be easy. It will be controversial, but we are prepared to bear the burden. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc0c48119a84486ca30955c85dff2729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc0c48119a84486ca30955c85dff2729\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will make a couple of brief comments on Part 4 of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), particularly in respect of clause 66. The clause states that the regional council and Minister of Conservation will effectively keep their hands away from fisheries management in a generic sense, and that is entirely appropriate. However, it goes on to state: \u201Ca regional council and the Minister of Conservation may perform the functions specified in subsection (1)(d) to control aquaculture activities for the purpose of avoiding, remedying, or mitigating the effects of aquaculture activities on fishing and fisheries resources.\u201D That brings to my mind a very significant question here: what capacity do our regional councils have to adequately fulfil their existing obligations, duties, and responsibilities? I would be very interested to hear from the Minister or any other member of a regional council in the country that has sufficient capacity, expertise, and knowledge to make considered and appropriate judgments about the likely effect of aquaculture activities on fishing and fisheries resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis has been an ongoing problem with the Resource Management Act since day one. Regional councils have not been fulfilling their existing obligations. Imposing new and complex obligation requirements on them will simply exacerbate that existing condition. I reflect momentarily on the Kaipara Harbour, where I have recently spent some time. The regional council there is under considerable pressure already to consider its baseline monitoring as a follow-on of the consents for the tidal energy project. We have yet to see a regional council in the last 20 years that has been able to employ sufficient scientific capacity to properly assess the condition and quality of its environment within that area of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200843894e83442cdb863b7d0787d0656\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019d never satisfy that member or his party anyway, so why bother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59a5ab68a6f4228bd690a65b6f4ac42\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely challenge any member, even those who enjoy shouting rather than making sensible contributions, to come up with some evidence that any regional council has that capacity. I have genuine concerns that in reality what will happen is that the regional councils will not have the capacity; therefore, this requirement for them to look at the likely effects will not be satisfactorily met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere is also reference in this part to the development of finfish farming in the Hauraki Gulf, off the Coromandel coast. I hope it has been considered that there is significant local opposition\u2014deep-seated and long-term opposition\u2014to this proposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4a16fa86f3424cb280eb5e3ba20298\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220123a0efb82541babf6fb128a77a1dbe\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, we hear that it is rubbish. I am pleased that the member who is interjecting has moderated her language. In an earlier reading of the bill she used a much cruder word to suggest that the Green contribution was below par. The reality is that fishers are objecting. They are seriously concerned about the likely effect that this proposal to farm high-value species will have on the wild fishery. The Hauraki Gulf is a very popular recreational boating area. Again, that could be compromised. We know there are significant iwi and hap\u016B objections to the proposition of finfish farming, based on very sound social, economic, and environmental concerns. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Papers 264 and 265 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3e82e11b9be41cdbaba9e355b34e1de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 88\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 24; ACT New Zealand 2 (Douglas, Roy H); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; ACT New Zealand 3 (Boscawen, Calvert, Hide); Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c5a32199405460ca81c6609e4ab1851\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000901\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000902\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000903\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to schedule 1, and the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 278 in his name to schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000904\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000905\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228590c528eb4340419a358c45dd68166f\u0022\u003ESchedule 1A\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000907\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 265 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to schedule 1A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000908\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000909\u0022\u003ESchedule 1A as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f79c32b38fa4715a05554ac40adfd6e\u0022\u003ESchedule 1B\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000911\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 265 and 264 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to schedule 1B be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000912\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000913\u0022\u003ESchedule 1B as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022daf57e5951ec4bc7bbc7e78a3dcdde11\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022034386f4e2744f84abd28331a752ac50\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000916\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000917\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000918\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022648f65f936d74c51a6beab60db6eab8f\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002210fea6f59f514a428de27d6dc10116ad\u0022\u003EClause 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000921\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 277 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to the proposed amendments to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in his name be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000922\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000923\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 264 in the name of the Hon Phil Heatley to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000924\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000925\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ec3f826c9064c50ad9a95b8d8e25dd5\u0022\u003ESupplementary  .\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000927\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 2), the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Amendment Bill, and the Resource Management Amendment Bill (No 2),  pursuant to Order Paper276\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000928\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000929\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b6ff72ac9294d18bf981ef3bfa41c8c\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fe873bb10944bf7a1bdc944529f3567\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00221199442744e946ac90ff1edcc35a6921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221199442744e946ac90ff1edcc35a6921\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 2), the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Amendment Bill, and the Resource Management Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. I am delighted to propose the third readings of these bills. This legislation will enable New Zealand\u2019s marine aquaculture industry to achieve its potential for sustainable economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe need to take advantage of the international demand for high-quality, sustainably produced products. New Zealand has the ability to meet this demand, but our legislative framework needs to change. It must support growth while ensuring that environmental limits are respected and that aquaculture activities are balanced with other uses of our coastal space. Aquaculture needs only a small fraction of our coastal space, but for the past decade marine farming development has been held back by moratoria and legislation that have not worked well in practice. Good spatial planning that provides for aquaculture activities in appropriate places is critical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe legislation simplifies planning by removing the requirement for aquaculture management areas to be established before consent applications can be made. This will put aquaculture on the same footing as other coastal activities, and enable councils to plan for it in a similar way. Removing this requirement for aquaculture management areas means a return to a consent-based regime for aquaculture, but with some important improvements over the pre - aquaculture management area law to help councils better manage demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Resource Management Act requires a comprehensive assessment of environmental effects as part of the consenting process, and I fully endorse those provisions. The legislation will foster environmentally sustainable aquaculture development overall and will enable the farming of new, higher-value species informed by research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe legislation balances the industry\u2019s desire for certainty with the rights of councils and communities to decide how their coastal space is used. The legislation provides measures to enable the backlog of consent applications, including those frozen under the current law, to be processed. In most cases processing will be able to be resumed on the commencement of the new law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe legislation makes changes to the Tasman and Waikato regional coastal plans to enable applications for consent to farm a wider range of species, including finfish, in areas where aquaculture is already established. The legislation has been the subject of informed debate in the House, so important changes were introduced by way of Supplementary Order Papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn Coromandel achieving substantial growth in the industry is important. It requires a shift to higher-value species, including finfish. Coromandel is not the only place where this needs to happen; there is potential for h\u0101puku and kingfish to be commercially farmed in the Waikato region. Research indicates that this can be done within environmental limits and while maintaining a balance between aquaculture and other uses of the coastal space. This legislation provides an opportunity in this area by establishing the Coromandel marine farm zone as a site specifically for finfish species. The Government has taken a cautious approach to the management of environmental impacts. The legislation therefore provides for staged development of the zone, with some particular consent conditions and careful monitoring to ensure that any unwanted impacts can be identified and addressed early on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAt the first reading of the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) I signalled that the settlement provisions might be revised if engagement between the Crown and iwi found a better mechanism for delivering the Crown\u2019s obligation for any new space created by commercial interests. That mechanism has been identified in Supplementary Order Paper 264, introduced on 8 August, to ensure that the Crown is able to deliver through new space, cash, or other agreed terms. The bill now enables the settlement to be delivered through regional agreements in a way that benefits iwi aspirations and preferences. This mechanism is the outcome of a process of engagement over several months. I thank iwi leaders, I thank their teams, I thank the Ministry of Fisheries staff for their work, and I thank the staff of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe impact of aquaculture on fishing is managed under the Fisheries Act through the process of the undue adverse effects test. That process will remain. However, the legislation now provides a firmer footing and strong incentives for both parties to reach agreement. The existing Fisheries Act protections for non-quota management stocks and customary and recreational fishing remain unchanged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMany people and organisations have contributed to the aquaculture reforms and this legislation in particular. I thank Aquaculture New Zealand\u2014in particular, its chairman and, of course, its Chief Executive, Mike Burrell. I really appreciate the input they have had on this. I thank members of the House, particularly of the Primary Production Committee, for their work on this legislation, and I thank Shane Ardern for his knowledge and ability to see the difficult process through. The Aquaculture Technical Advisory Group and the more than 200 individuals and organisations who made submissions on the group\u2019s report provided the initial framework for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI also mention the valued contribution made by the local authorities, particularly Waikato Regional Council, Hauraki District Council, Thames-Coromandel District Council, and Tasman District Council. I acknowledge science providers, particularly the Cawthron Institute and the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, whose analysis and research underpins policy advice and informed decisions. Finally, I particularly recognise the work of the Minister for the Environment, Dr Nick Smith; the Minister of Conservation, Kate Wilkinson; and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, Dr Pita Sharples, who took particular interest in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis legislation provides a sound framework for the future of an important and growing industry. I am confident that this legislation gets the framework right, and I look forward to an exciting future. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00226b965232f0ae4eb6905b556c0530c983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b965232f0ae4eb6905b556c0530c983\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Let the records for this night show that although this side of the House agreed to support these reforms in the legislation arising from the Aquaculture Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3), largely because we saw the immediate value in enabling the industry to free itself up and a process to stop it fighting amongst itself, we had the unedifying spectacle of the putative leader of the industry in a political sense, the Minister of Fisheries, standing with his hand going rapidly in and out of his pocket, whilst he mumbled very awkwardly over amendments upon amendments upon amendments. That is not an example of fine constitutional practice. For reasons we on this side of the House cannot actually account for, his collar continually curled up. We cannot rationalise as to what stimuli that collar was responding to, but I can assure the House that it was not a pretty sight. I only hope that as a consequence of the changes we have acquiesced in and supported this evening, the industry goes on to stronger things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs I have said earlier, it has been a target for a long time to achieve a billion dollars from marine farming. There will be no billion dollars unless, firstly, there is monetary policy governing high-quality exports and the ability to repatriate overseas earnings back to New Zealand at a decent rate. Secondly, neither will we generate the billion dollars if we continue to starve this part of the New Zealand export sector of suitable levels of research and development funding, because it is only through research and development funding, whether or not that side of the House likes it, that we will move what is a basic commodity up the value chain. Thirdly, yes, it is important that central government exercise a suitable level of supervisory control over how and when resource consents are allocated, especially in those cases where there is intractable opposition. But that will not happen if it ends up generating such a level of discontent and such a level of hostility in local communities that it goes to an irrational level. With those sorts of admonitions, naturally we will support the passage of this legislation, as I give this third reading speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe have had a few unremarkable things come from Sandra Goudie about this legislation, and I accept that\u2014like the area I hail from of Tai Tokerau\u2014the Hauraki Gulf, etc., is her area. But there is a portion in schedule 1 that talks about marine mammals becoming entangled in marine farming structures. It also talks about endangered species. Indeed, in schedule 1 the term \u201Cturtle\u201D is used. So she needs to ensure, as does that side of the House, that no epithets are used, a great deal of charity is shown, and respect is shown for the fact that this evening Her Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition has been prepared to overlook these gratuitous insults flung across this side of the House, whilst we show inordinate levels of statesmanship. We are prepared to overlook whom we could symbolise on that side of the House as either a turtle or an entangled marine mammal, and what part of the anatomy might be suffering damages of consequence of such a collision. We are prepared to overlook all those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnd we are prepared to overlook the imperfections of the Minister\u2019s contribution and, unfortunately, the unravelling of that slender bit of knowledge he has about constitutional practice. We are prepared to pretend that the industry is relying upon him, but in actual fact the industry is relying on the entirety of Parliament, and the majority of Parliament has made a very useful contribution. We have had a characteristically aloof contribution from the Green Party but that is their life force\u2014to try to generate jobs not out of our natural resources, but taking a very preservationist view of the environment. Thankfully I am distinguished from that view because we need to rely upon the infinite inventiveness of human beings and their ability to derive a livelihood and derive wealth out of the environment, but to do it in such a way that it enhances the rights of people to participate and of us to earn a living overseas as both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101. This shows we support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022baf2df2c24e44d4cb05b6be18a7944bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baf2df2c24e44d4cb05b6be18a7944bc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise in support of the legislation arising from the Aquaculture Amendment Bill (No 3) tonight. It was interesting to listen to the previous contribution from the other side of the House. The member Shane Jones made a fine contribution in the Primary Production Committee, I hasten to add, and I thank him for that. But we must wonder when we listen to that contribution what that member and his party were doing for 9 long years in regard to aquaculture amendment and the development of aquaculture in New Zealand. We must wonder about that very elusive contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThis legislation amends the Resource Management Act, the Fisheries Act 1996, the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004, and the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Act 2004. That has been long overdue, I hasten to add. The select committee received the bill on 16 November 2010. The closing date for submissions was 11 February 2011. We received 120 submissions from interested groups all over New Zealand, and we heard 57 of them, including during a day in Auckland. The end result of that was, as the previous member described, a fractured submission process and a fractured industry that clearly needed to see some leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI thank the Hon Shane Jones for his contribution. It was too late coming but we have it now. I thank him for his support. I look forward to the passage of this bill through Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002202db7e3f96114bf8a210b7a22200aebe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202db7e3f96114bf8a210b7a22200aebe\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the third reading of the aquaculture legislation. The Primary Production Committee suggested in its report back that the legislation provides \u201Can efficient legislative and regulatory framework that would enable the sustainable development of aquaculture within the coastal marine area.\u201D One cannot argue with the aspiration behind that\u2014to develop a sustainable aquaculture industry in New Zealand\u2014but sadly the legislation falls far short of giving us any confidence that the outcome would or could be achieved under the provisions within it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe debate around this issue has been highly coloured by the constant reference to the billion-dollar industry emerging, and the claim that aquaculture is the next big thing. I think there has been a lack of a reality check around that. There seems to have been very little analysis of where that number came from. It would require something like a threefold increase in the current earnings, which sit at around $370 million - odd. It is not entirely obvious where that threefold increase would come from. The market has not been waiting for New Zealand to sort out its industry. This unexamined proposition clearly has blinded a number of participants in the debate to the more sober and measured assessments and submissions that pointed out at length, again and again, that this proposed model will not provide the long-term solution to the underlying weaknesses in our present marine management system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe total water space currently occupied by marine farms is in the order of 5,800 hectares or thereabouts. It is estimated that the area needed to generate this hoped for billion dollars would similarly need about a threefold increase, to something like 17,000 hectares. The Minister referred to a relatively small imposition on the total marine space surrounding New Zealand, and at one level he is quite right. But that clearly overlooks the fact that the waters that will be required and sought after for this activity are waters that are also sought after for numerous other activities. There will be significant competition for a relatively small amount of water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe proposed legislative regulatory measures to manage the allocation are very unlikely to have any chance of managing the legal regulatory and practical challenges that the level of demand for this water will throw up, so have little chance of achieving their stated purpose. It is clear that the very narrowly defined notion of economic efficiency that has been driven has seemed to be the guiding light in this debate and in the proposals within the legislation. We can talk at length about the relative efficiency, in ecological terms, of the activity of farming, particularly finfish farming. The proposition is that we will import large volumes of fish food, which are already depleting existing wild stocks, and will convert this to higher-value fish product at a ratio of 1 kilogram of product for 1.8 kilograms of input. Ecologically this is nonsense. As short-term economics it may make sense, but that economic return relies on us effectively mining ecosystems\u2014not our ecosystems, but in the larger scheme of things we will be mining ecosystems. That is seldom a recipe for a long-term return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThere have already been numerous local challenges to councils and the Environment Court, asserting that many of our more popular waters are already farmed beyond capacity. The National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd, our Crown research institute, has already stated on many occasions that we simply do not know enough about the complex processes and interaction within and between the farmed areas and the unmodified or wild environment to have any confidence about the future of this. Systematic environmental monitoring has not been undertaken. We simply do not have the robust scientific data and knowledge that would inform good management decisions. That is not an imagined view; it is an empirical view put forward by our Crown research institutes, which are clearly disinterested, in the economic sense, in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe oft-repeated message from our scientific and ecological community is that there is an absolute and urgent need for good quantitative and qualitative data to inform a truly sustainable approach. Allowing the second gold rush\u2014and inevitably that is what we will see, in the absence of that underlying science\u2014is guaranteed to undermine efforts to establish a sustainable industry. We are told that this new legislation will normalise aquaculture to the extent that it will put it within the ambit of the Resource Management Act. It will remove the aquaculture management areas, and put it in line with other decision-making processes around resources. The immediate and obvious objection to that, of course, is the proposition that the area in question\u2014the space in the marine environment\u2014is currently common area, it is public domain, and it is public space that is otherwise available and accessible to all. Assigning exclusive use of public domain to a commercial venture\u2014and remember, that to achieve the wished-for billion-dollar bonanza we need to alienate from public domain something to the tune of 12,000 hectares of marine space\u2014can in no way be considered normal or desirable practice, especially given that the management and regulatory regime will inevitably be dominated by a very few well-funded and determined interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EArguably we are seeing what is a new normal, under this Government. In the same way that this Government is doing its best to eliminate opportunities for public participation to reduce reasonable safeguards and opportunities for assessment of resource management applications, so too are we seeing a determined push to drive open the gates to exploitation of the marine area but without real thought or consideration of the longer-term damage that could be done here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ENew section 186D, inserted by clause 35, makes provision for the chief executive of the Ministry of Fisheries, for example. It says he may consult before making decisions in respect of aquaculture. It is the belief of the committee \u201Cthat proceeding without consultation would be appropriate in most cases to help speed up the process.\u201D I have never seen such a clear enabling statement that will license future chief executives to be very, very miserly in their approach to consultation. We will see ambivalence to consultation and likely a very hostile approach to engaging with legitimate concerns and interests around us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThe chief executive is empowered but absolutely not obligated to consult and indeed, under the wording from the select committee, is probably discouraged from consulting \u201Cpersons and organisations that the chief executive considers represent the classes of persons who have customary, commercial, or recreational fishing interests that may be affected \u2026\u201D. In short, the chief executive is given considerable licence again, not only about whether to consult\u2014with a preference to not consult\u2014but also about whom he or she consults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EWe are told that the Resource Management Act application process will be conducted in an integrated fashion, with any process deemed necessary undertaken to establish the existence or otherwise of an undue adverse effect on commercial, customary, or recreational fisheries. The mechanisms proposed here are complex, they are multilayered, and they require the engagement, and indeed at some level the cooperation, of numerous competing and often conflicting interests. I would confidently predict that if there is an economic bonanza in this legislation, it will be a bonanza for the lawyers. This so-called integrated approach is almost certain to generate highly charged and expensive litigation, with appeals, counter-appeals, and claims for costs and compensation. This proposed legislation takes real risks with our environment. It absolutely works against ecological, sustainable best practice. It establishes very weak provisions for democratic process. We are relying on some very highly questionable regulatory mechanisms to lead us to this hoped for, dreamed for, billion-dollar future. All this, to use the Government\u2019s favourite phrase, is balanced by economic opportunity, so the substance of that proposed economic opportunity bears some investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EAquaculture is not an industry for the faint-hearted or the undercapitalised. There are very few companies within New Zealand with sufficient capital to bear the inevitable high cost and interrupted return of a very vulnerable primary production industry like aquaculture. It would be our sure forecast that in time this industry, if it goes ahead, will be dominated by very few interests, probably overseas. There will be very little benefit to New Zealanders or to our environment. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022 data-id=\u00223540f21c57304015b6c564fb2f6e1e78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223540f21c57304015b6c564fb2f6e1e78\u0022\u003EHILARY CALVERT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party is concerned about property rights, and members should make no mistake about it: this legislation is intended to force quota holders to relinquish property rights. Our caucus is splitting its vote on this legislation, not because we do not all believe in fundamental property rights, but because for some of us the advantages of this legislation just outweigh the disadvantages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EMy speech tonight expresses the particular concerns we have about the reduction of property rights for quota holders introduced through this legislation. As a result of recently tabled Supplementary Order Paper 265, those who wish to carry out aquaculture in an area currently used by a quota holder need only show that the aquaculture use is of materially greater economic value to New Zealand than the use by the quota holder. They then are obligated to engage in an arbitration process to determine what will be paid for the compulsory taking. Compulsory arbitration was opposed by submitters, including the Seafood Industry Council, during the select committee process, for good reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EFirstly, compulsory arbitration will reduce the value of quota rights\u2014individual transferable quotas\u2014and the fisheries settlement. The fundamental contract of the current test, commonly known as UAE\u2014undue adverse effects\u2014is that if there is an undue adverse effect on commercial fishing, then aquaculture development cannot proceed unless agreement is reached with quota holders. Compulsory arbitration alters this fundamental contract by replacing the absolute legal protection of commercial interests from undue adverse effects with balancing competing commercial interests, resulting in a compulsory arbitrated taking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EThe security provided by the undue adverse effects test has been built into the value of the individual transferable quota over the last 25 years. Compulsory arbitration allows the value of the industry\u2019s quota assets, which are currently about $4 billion, to be reduced without the consent of the quota holders. This reduction in quota value will be immediate upon enactment of a compulsory arbitration provision, as quota holders will increase the risk premium to reflect anticipated loss of access to some fisheries. Compulsory arbitration fails to uphold the integrity of the full and final fisheries settlement, as settlement assets allocated to iwi could have their value unilaterally reduced without the consent of quota holders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003ESecondly, compulsory arbitration is not used in this way in other parts of commerce. In no other sector of commerce do we allow one group of private individuals to compulsorily take away, using the powers of the State, the property of a competitor, on the basis that the price will be determined by compulsory arbitration. It would be unthinkable, for example, that a farmer or horticulturalist on the edge of a town could be forced to sell part of their land to a developer wishing to build a supermarket on that site. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EThirdly, compulsory arbitration will not achieve the claimed benefits. It will not ensure the best use of coastal resources. Negotiated agreements between the affected parties will determine the best-value commercial harvesting use of coastal space, because the parties have the information and commercial discipline necessary to make appropriate investment decisions. It will not provide stronger incentives to negotiate. To the contrary, the prospect of compulsory removal of rights is likely to polarise the industry, and incentivise affected quota owners to take every step possible to oppose the prospect of aquaculture development. It will not provide a more equitable outcome. There is nothing equitable about an existing legitimate commercial use being compulsorily displaced by a new commercial use, and it is not more efficient. The arbitration process will revisit all of the issues traversed during the undue adverse effect assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EFinally, compulsory arbitration is inconsistent with agreed seafood industry policy. Seafood industry participants recently confirmed their commitment to retaining the undue adverse effect tests. They agreed that the strong rights needed to support future development of aquaculture do not require a corresponding weakening of commercial fishing rights, and agreed that these rights must coexist in a manner that gives legitimacy to, rather than undermines, other industry participants. In direct contrast, compulsory arbitration alters the undue adverse effects test and weakens commercial fishing rights. Compulsory arbitration is inconsistent with the agreed industry position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EThe process of the progress through the House of this legislation is also disturbing. The idea that a major issue, which could have gone to the Primary Production Committee and been properly consulted on, has been introduced in a Supplementary Order Paper after the select committee process is a weakening of parliamentary process, especially in an urgency motion on an issue that is in no way urgent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003EThe issue is essentially one of competing commercial interests, and the Government is intervening and taking sides. This bill could well encourage others to lobby members of Parliament in the hope that a Supplementary Order Paper could be introduced, after consultation and without proper scrutiny, in the commercial interests of some, but against the interests of current property rights holders. Perhaps most important, industry players oppose this amendment. The Supplementary Order Paper will not sort out problems if the industry has no confidence in this solution proposed by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022bddabdedd9dc4d918d767fb090dd779c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bddabdedd9dc4d918d767fb090dd779c\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare i t\u0113nei p\u014D. I am pleased to stand and take a call on this aquaculture legislation, and I am pleased to say that the M\u0101ori Party is supporting it. I am thrilled to be able to talk about this legislation, simply because today has been rather negative on the part of some people who have not appreciated the M\u0101ori Party view on some bills. But tonight I can say that we are right behind this legislation 100 percent. We support this legislation, which updates the aquaculture legislation and therefore smoothes the pathway to settlement of M\u0101ori commercial aquaculture claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe support also the opportunity this legislation will provide to allow trial farming of high-value finfish in the Coromandel marine-farming zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOther speakers have spoken about this legislation, but to make sure it is on record for those who are listening in, I say that this aquaculture legislation aims to simplify the allocation of new space for aquaculture activities by removing the need to set up aquaculture management areas. The legislation does this by making amendments to a number of Acts: the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Act 2004, the Fisheries Act 1996, the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004, and the Resource Management Act 1991. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want to put on record our congratulations to Minister Heatley from Whangarei on the honourable way in which this legislation has been developed. The M\u0101ori Party has been actively engaged with the Minister on this legislation, and we have been proud of the way in which iwi leaders have also been actively engaged in the process of the drafting. The iwi leaders\u2019 advisers worked with Ministry of Fisheries officials in the drafting of two amendments, and we believe that the legislation is much better because of their input. The amendment drafted in consultation with aquaculture iwi leaders offers iwi and the Crown more flexibility in negotiating settlements under the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe first amendment focused on Treaty settlements, and confirmed forecasting, gazetting, and consenting of regional aquaculture space for iwi\u201420 percent of the total aquacultural space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe second amendment was focused on undue adverse effects tests. It was proposed during the Committee of the whole House that if there was an impact on customary/recreational space, then aquaculture space could not proceed. With commercial space, the threshold for support from fisheries permit holders required drops from 100 percent to 75 percent. The second amendment is basically very technical in nature. It changes the test and facilitates agreements between aquacultural applicants and fishing quota owners. When 70 percent of fishing quota owners who are impacted by aquaculture agree to a proposed aquacultural agreement, then the applicant can apply to the High Court to have the remaining quota owners bound, as well. It concerns, basically, planning and consenting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, there is a proposed binding arbitration process for mediation. The legislation requires negotiation and agreement of what might be seen as forced arbitration. Iwi leaders are comfortable with this threshold change and arbitration mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI cannot underestimate the importance of aquaculture to our wh\u0101nau. The M\u0101ori Party supports any opportunities and incentives for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to enjoy genuine progress in their connections with their maunga, awa, moana, marae, t\u016Bpuna, and atua. We believe that aquaculture has great potential to boost our wealth and jobs, especially in the regions. We believe that this bill will help M\u0101ori contribute more to the growth of an industry that has huge economic potential to benefit all of Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIwi already control around 40 percent of fisheries, but further progress in aquaculture has been hampered by the 2004 Act, creating an unworkable solution in settling M\u0101ori claims. The legislation we are debating tonight is arguably a work in progress, especially in consideration of the changes that are aimed at simplifying the process around the allocation of new space for aquaculture activities, as well as taking into account the interim measure put in place to allow for continuation of the 20 percent allocation mechanism for M\u0101ori interest in aquaculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe commitment shown with regard to future consultation with iwi leaders on these issues has been really encouraging. Because of their work, the amendment allows iwi and the Crown to negotiate regional settlements of commercial aquaculture claims, which might involve 20 percent of any new space, cash, or other agreed terms. In effect, iwi can negotiate a package that suits their specific and unique circumstances. We understand that new space will be reserved for settlements for 3 years. We accept that this is important in allowing negotiations to proceed, but the time limit will stop discussions from getting bogged down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ERegional settlements are to deliver space to iwi in more useful blocks, rather than as 20 percent scattered among each allocation that is made. I want to draw attention to the comments made by Te Ohu Kaimoana in its submission on this bill to the Primary Production Committee. The submission states: \u201CHaving a positive and sustainable aquaculture sector will not come from getting the legislation correct. It will also need to be implemented well. Te Ohu welcomes that the government has indicated that it will take a more active and coordinated role. This must happen and it must be sustained. One aspect where this is crucial will be in working with iwi in regions to reach and promptly implement agreements on their Aquaculture Settlements. For iwi to receive value from the Settlement this work will need to be anticipatory.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnother part of the bill I will refer to makes provision to allow a marine farming zone to be created in the Hauraki Gulf by amending the Waikato Regional Coastal Plan. The zone is suitable for trial raising of h\u0101puku or kingfish in sea cages. These high-value species would boost the industry. Again, iwi will get 20 percent of the new zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, as I said earlier, we will be supporting the passing of the bill. Although we will be doing that, there is an outstanding issue of development opportunities that we believe should be promoted for iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau. We would like to promote the development of innovative iwi aquaculture enterprises, including those in the marine environment, in fresh water, or on land. In particular, we want to assist iwi to do two things: first, to maximise the value of assets received under the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004; and, second, to contribute substantially to the realisation of the aquaculture industry goal of achieving average turnover of $1 billion by 2025. The M\u0101ori Party has taken up this issue with the Minister, and we hope that the Government can see fit to invest in projects that are aimed at delivering significant and sustainable economic value to iwi and New Zealand across the whole aquaculture value chain. There is an enormous amount of potential that we could look to support, including education and skills development, research and development, product development, commercialisation, commercial development, and technology transfer. Within that, if we were to give priority to any projects, they would be those that, firstly, contribute to innovation in the aquaculture sector; secondly, build iwi and M\u0101ori capacity to participate successfully in all aspects of the sector; and, thirdly, encourage collaboration between iwi, and between iwi and third-party partners of their choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe see the need for investment in iwi development within the aquaculture sector as being really crucial to the future success of the industry, and we will be taking up every opportunity to discuss these issues further down the line with either the Takutai Trust of Te Ohu Kaimoana or the aquaculture unit of the Ministry of Fisheries to provide a platform for advancing sustainable development. With those comments I say that the M\u0101ori Party supports this legislation at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c96290a23d04e57825912d2efca4c27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Amendment Bill, the Fisheries Amendment Bill (No 2), the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Amendment Bill, and the Resource Management Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; New Zealand Labour 23; ACT New Zealand 2 (Douglas, Roy H); M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; ACT New Zealand 3 (Boscawen, Calvert, Hide); Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022610959a23393422bb7b6487005c50f7a\u0022\u003ETrade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216ee2aa388db44e88a4fb936ac3c4dbe\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002251450a95b7e0433b804f0dd210b23d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251450a95b7e0433b804f0dd210b23d51\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill was introduced by the previous Government. It amends the Trade Marks Act 2002 with two clear objectives in mind. The first objective is to ensure that procedures for registering trademarks are aligned with international standards, to minimise regulatory and business compliance costs associated with the protection of trademarks. The bill ensures that trademark registration procedures conform to the international standards set out in the nice agreement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d65857a845494b916700c87693fbad\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022492e63bb11564d1587e7ba2ffe6cb5c0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it has been a long, long week\u2014the Nice Agreement Concerning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd03da40c8d4766b4849a7367f96c67\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Very nice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232cd3531ed654c09b64224e121e99cb0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: It was a nice agreement\u2014it was the Nice Agreement Concerning the International Classification of Goods and Services for the Purposes of the Registration of Marks and the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks. Joining these World Intellectual Property Organization treaties is an important step in the process of harmonising our regimes for the protection of trademarks. To further the single economic market with Australia the Ministry of Economic Development is also working with IP Australia to further harmonise our respective trademarks registration procedures not covered by the Nice agreement and the Singapore treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill also amends the Trade Marks Act to facilitate the implementation of the international registration regime for trademarks provided for by the so-called Madrid agreement. The aim of the Madrid agreement is to reduce business compliance costs associated with registering trademarks in overseas jurisdictions. Joining the Madrid Protocol will provide New Zealand businesses with the opportunity to have their trademarks protected in up to 84 countries by filing one application, in English, with the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand, and paying one fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7da6c1a30c2473f8de25b0719192700\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: One fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d56fbfe84e25495997cb0dcef4e1d604\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: One fee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe second objective of this bill is to reduce the trade in New Zealand of counterfeit trademarked goods and pirated copyright works. This is particularly timely legislation as we approach the Rugby World Cup and, with it, all the economic opportunities for local producers of merchandise. Counterfeiting and piracy affects the profitability of legitimate businesses, undermines productivity, and threatens the jobs of many honest and hard-working New Zealanders. The bill clarifies that customs officers are able to seize counterfeit goods and pirated works at the border and undertake investigations to gather evidence to enable importers of counterfeit and pirated goods to be prosecuted. Furthermore, the Customs Service will be able to require a person connected with the importation of the goods to produce documents or to appear and answer questions related to those goods. The bill also creates a new enforcement role for the Ministry of Economic Development under the Copyright Act and Trade Marks Act, enabling so-called enforcement officers to seek and gather evidence to bring criminal prosecutions against counterfeiters and pirates. Enforcement officers will also have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d232035c19412db9cd0eb383efffcc\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Arrr!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223defdcae234a4b20bfce604b516e10d6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014not those sorts of pirates\u2014a limited non-warranted search power to enter public places and businesses open to the public, in order to examine and seize illicit goods being displayed for sale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAt this time I thank the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its consideration of the bill and for its sensible recommendations. These include the insertion of a new clause 13A to clarify section 96(1) of the Trade Marks Act, which provides for no infringement for certain continuous use of an unregistered trademark. The select committee also recommended changes to clause 22A, governing the appointment of the Commissioner of Trade Marks and assistant commissioners, in order to align their functions and powers to their counterparts under the Patents Bill. The Ministry of Economic Development enforcement officers will also be given an additional investigative power to more closely align them with their counterparts in the Customs Service. The select committee recommended that new subsection 134V(1) be amended to give the courts the authority to order seized items found to be infringing to be forfeited to the rights-holders in consistency with the general provisions under section 128 of the Trade Marks Act and sections 134 and 202 of the Copyright Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill recognises the importance of trademarks as an essential marketing tool for businesses, enabling consumers to recognise their products and services. By providing protection against the unauthorised use of trademarks, the Government is creating incentives for businesses to invest in quality products and services. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220aa7a303c37744daaeaa7fc805e02084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aa7a303c37744daaeaa7fc805e02084\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I have great pleasure in rising to speak on the second reading of the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. I am sure it is a great honour for the Minister of Commerce to finally be delivering the second reading speech given that this bill was introduced by the Hon Judith Tizard on 8 September 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI remind those who are listening, clinging to every word spoken in Parliament this evening under urgency, that this bill was introduced on 8 September 2008. It was referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on 7 April 2009, submissions closed on 15 May 2009, and the select committee presented its report on 15 September 2009. This bill is so old that when it went through the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee Mr Hayes was twice the size he is now\u2014he is now half the size\u2014and I am twice the size I was then. That is how long ago it is since we put this bill before the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the commentary on the bill, it is somewhat odd to see that there was quite a deal of concern\u2014and I recall this in the considerations of the select committee\u2014about the question of some elements being brought into force by Order in Council. In fact, the commentary states: \u201CWe accept that these are valid reasons for commencement by Order in Council and urge the Ministry of Economic Development to implement all aspects of the legislation expeditiously.\u201D Well, it has not exactly been an expeditious process. In fact, it has been a very, very slow process. This is not, of course, Mr Power\u2019s area; it is Mr Brownlee\u2019s, and it was his responsibility well before the earthquake lest anyone think I am making any comments on that. This was all in 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo it does seem somewhat odd to be standing here in urgency discussing a matter such as this bill. Of course, on this side of the House we can say that the Labour Party supports the bill. It is a useful bill to, essentially, put in place what New Zealand agrees to internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227216f086a6409ab575f3d71ec4592e\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What does it do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b83028168647079b90ec65ed221593\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Ms Dean for asking that. The bill allows us to implement the Madrid Protocol, the Nice agreement, and the Singapore treaty. One thing I would note is that if one is an international negotiator in the area of trademarks and copyright, one tends to go to reasonably nice places. I think that is one thing we could deduce from seeing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99a1b06e3904597b288d5bd5414280b\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CNice\u201D or \u201CNeece\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea672e6058849b6b68877d2751b9878\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We do not see much of the \u201CKhartoum Protocol\u201D, or anything like that do we? It is the Madrid Protocol, the Nice agreement, and the Singapore treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EEssentially, as we have already heard, this bill is really about dealing with counterfeiting issues, making sure we have internationally consistent trademark law, and offering an important step forward in making us consistent. It has not been dealt with in the expeditious manner that was previously stated. The second purpose of the bill is to strengthen enforcement. I think it is important to note that the provisions around strengthening enforcement, as already mentioned, were changed by the select committee to be consistent with customs officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWith those very few words, I can say that the Labour Party is happy to support this bill. It was given thorough consideration by the select committee, and good changes were made. I am happy to commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022 data-id=\u002219d3a2838f0b43a7846165afb690cc45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d3a2838f0b43a7846165afb690cc45\u0022\u003EDAVID CLENDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a brief call on the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, although I am inspired by the previous speaker, Grant Robertson, to perhaps make a more comprehensive statement than I was going to make. Nevertheless, it is nice to stand and support a Government bill, against the trend of the previous few days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EThis is very sensible legislation, clearly. It seeks to protect the integrity and the value of New Zealand - designed, manufactured, and produced products, and that is a significant requirement. We are a trading country. I could argue\u2014and I quite often do\u2014that we rely too much on international trade, rather than seeking to meet our needs from our own resources. Nevertheless, we will continue to be a trading nation and, as such, these sorts of agreements are important to us. It is important that we engage with the international community to ensure that to the extent that we can undertake to protect the integrity of its products, it, in turn, will do what it can to protect the integrity of ours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003ETrademarks and brands are, of course, significant in terms of the actual market value of a product. As a certain manufacturer of clothing has found to its cost in recent days, a trademark is everything. If one loses public support for that, one has lost a great deal, indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EInitially, we saw the sense in this legislation. I am speaking on the basis of my colleagues informing me, because the point has been well made that this bill has taken an extraordinarily long time to get through the House. Our primary concerns\u2014in fact, our only concerns\u2014initially about this draft legislation were issues relating to the enforcement of the conditions and provisions within it by the Ministry of Economic Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e959f20f-3de7-4f54-8577-8ea78d72c3dd\u0022\u003EI am assured that the select committee process satisfied my colleague Mr Locke, who is not an acknowledged champion of excessive powers being assigned to regulatory authorities. On that basis we are very happy to accept that this bill has found the correct balance, and we are happy to support it. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe714555fcca48e182155d318c97c525\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe714555fcca48e182155d318c97c525\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge Grant Robertson\u2019s comments about the time that it has taken to get the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill back into the House. As a matter of fact, I did query the Minister of Commerce on the very same point and, in all fairness, he explained that he has been extremely busy. I accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe reason this bill is in the House tonight in urgency is that we in the National Government are focused on boosting growth and creating jobs. Only a strong economy can provide financial security for families, real opportunities for young people, safer communities, higher-quality education, and health services for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ELet me move on from the arcane comments that we have heard from earlier speakers, just to put a little practical bent on this. This bill is hugely important, for example, to Metalcraft Industries in Dannevirke\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e823a1bbac40f7a5a25cf93e6bce75\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that if the member wants to reread the Prime Minister\u2019s speech from the National Party conference, he could just table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e706733f74ea4889bab6093ff0e4bf60\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Frivolous, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037e12bdb83d4a30b43268a9c9e72e54\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not comment on that, but I tell John Hayes that we are actually on a bill about trademarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c42aa1ecbd4d54981996a45df9f753\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: That is why I am talking about Metalcraft Industries in Dannevirke and explaining that it has invented a wheelchair that retails in the United States at $25,000 apiece. If it were not for the possibility of that company getting trademarks and trade protection, there would be no value in research and development for that product, at all. I go further north, to Takapau, where people have invented additions for engines that produce emission-free outputs. They can trademark them, and that is giving them protection, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis trademarks legislation will reduce compliance costs, and the law sends a strong message that New Zealand is not an easy target for illicit trade in counterfeit goods and pirated works. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa15604bfb7e49999ebabdb1baecaf6f\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e93fa4a186bf476685438df07a13c15c\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022de78c86007e34e45afe68ef9cfdac2a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de78c86007e34e45afe68ef9cfdac2a4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that it is the intention of the Government not to take any further business and, therefore, I seek leave for the House to now adjourn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be03d20daa084957a1452fcd92dbcbb3\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Government has indicated that it will not continue with any future business in the urgency motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id201108166bd5ed616363451bbc877939a2e030f3001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 8.40 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"