"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee9274c5c7d44b6baa08761d8a81ce8f\u0022\u003EWednesday, 7 September 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f28b44a8f9541e5b2358a32631a010d\u0022\u003EWednesday, 7 September 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224539c78671c84937a8bea1fd60890a71\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226607ceeb3903432cb93fe6a1504a51ff\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d85720fb15e474db98f60b78981106e\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Growth and Job Creation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00221e6f85af334e4d8d86bbe0935a26e0f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e6f85af334e4d8d86bbe0935a26e0f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National\u2014West Coast - Tasman)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What steps has the Government taken to make better use of its balance sheet to boost growth and jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6adff212a043f09a5a9d3d09bf98c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6adff212a043f09a5a9d3d09bf98c0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has a very substantial balance sheet, with total assets currently at a value of around $220 billion. In the last few years the Government has undertaken a range of carefully selected capital investments, including an infrastructure programme with significant investment in roads and in KiwiRail, as well as investment in schools, hospitals, and commercial assets. The first Investment Statement shows that these substantial investments will add up, over the next 5 years, to increasing State assets by $34 billion, much of it through expenditure on property, plant, and equipment, which will generate jobs and a long-term boost in productivity for the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab2044775514a2294e8e0137718d71f\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What independent assessments has he seen of the benefits of the Crown using its capital better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b98093c49e4a5691507f6f87cb2bb3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: When the Government is making very substantial new investments, it needs to be careful how it finances those investments. Last week I saw analysis by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research of the mixed-ownership proposal that the Government has put forward. It concluded that the proposal makes sense, that a partial sale would allow the Government to share the financing of major future investments with other investors, and that the proposal will reduce the Government\u2019s future borrowing needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e73ea858df452fa5f60d960983e5c7\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Did the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research analysis also cover what impact mixed ownership would have on Government finances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242604774593b4540a4d7b20e7550ca1f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it did. It noted that the return on the equity that the taxpayers have invested in these assets is less than the interest costs of holding the assets. The institute calculated that the annual gain to the Government from selling 49 percent of these companies could be close to $250 million. This seems reasonable, though the Government\u2019s own projections are more conservative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd6e2d93d05b4391855320a3a4911980\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen other examples of New Zealand businesses redeploying their capital for better use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229773fca57b48407099e7a481059c7cc5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I have noted that the Tower Investments chief, Sam Stubbs, has said it is likely to sell assets it owns overseas in order to be able to buy these assets in New Zealand. That would follow the pattern of shareholders of Port of Tauranga Ltd, where New Zealanders are buying out foreign ownership of Port of Tauranga Ltd shares listed on the stock exchange. I have also seen reports that Fairfax intends to float part of TradeMe on the New Zealand sharemarket\u2014a model similar to the one the Government is proposing and similar to that of Air New Zealand, which was set up as a mixed-ownership company by the previous Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c424ee1e2fe24159b8490783530e29ca\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: How would growth and jobs have been affected if the Government had implemented a tax-free threshold on income of $5,000 a year, taken GST off fresh fruit and vegetables, and restored the research and tax development credits, as proposed by Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd0fd6c1114402894771d773894c9aa\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Thankfully, we did not get to find out, because the Labour Government was thrown out and did not have the opportunity to put that package together. But it would almost certainly have been as bad for jobs and confidence as the policies of that party were when it was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c67dd582d1b4c2bba7b2c4a834654f5\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: How would growth and jobs have been affected if the Government had reduced spending to 29 percent of GDP and reduced the top company and income tax rate to 21 percent, as proposed by ACT last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229699c0b5ee114e258cfbaa2404cb6c71\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a bit hard to tell, because those measures may have ended up with the Government slashing the support that many New Zealanders have relied on through the tougher times of the recession. I am sure the member\u2019s party believes those measures would have been better for growth and jobs. We believe we struck about the right balance between building confidence and the opportunity for there to be more jobs and higher incomes in the future, while protecting New Zealanders through the tough times of a recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294b74cbb91954d51bb43884430879813\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Estimated Cost Per Year\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00222dd8ad31096f453a911882c7d8a470d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dd8ad31096f453a911882c7d8a470d8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: In light of her answer on behalf of the Prime Minister yesterday, that there is child poverty in New Zealand, what is the estimated cost of child poverty per year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00223c209f7b7c19477191273554e1649bf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c209f7b7c19477191273554e1649bf0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E That very much depends on whom one asks. New Zealand does not have either an official poverty measure or an official measure of the cost of child poverty\u2014nor does any country in the OECD. Recent reports into child poverty take data from Statistics New Zealand and the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s household incomes report. They then undertake their own analysis. Two recent reports go a step further and come up with an estimate of the cost to New Zealand of child poverty. These reports used assumptions from the UK and USA in their cost estimates, which range from $6 billion to $8 billion per year. I am not in a position to comment on the accuracy of those estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccaad2ca9bf456caf1b5f6a0190e4d7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government is putting massive investment into child poverty, as she said in the House yesterday, how many children have been lifted out of poverty in the last 3 years by this investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0359a91b8ba44beb0121f01015d29a7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As I stated, New Zealand does not have an official poverty measure. It did not have one under Labour\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292935f11e6d64d2498a74f837492338f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. I say to some of the Labour front-benchers that their deputy leader asked a fair question and I believe she deserves to hear an answer. That absolutely excessive interjection level means no one can hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228556c764302344469ab124ee37b24820\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand does not have an official measure of poverty. It did not have one under the previous Labour Government and it does not have one under this National one. I stand by my stance that we have put millions and millions of dollars into those children and their families. Some examples are insulating over 100,000 homes where those children live, putting $1.4 billion into early childhood education, focusing on those children who most need it, spending money on Incredible Years, our immunisation rates going from 73 percent to 90 percent, and the focus on children in care. The list can go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b82b1ce81c448d9daa08997c9bb88a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was based on an answer given yesterday by the Minister about putting massive investment into child poverty, which I raised in my question. Then I asked her how many children had been lifted out of poverty by this investment in the last 3 years. The Minister told us about a lot of programmes, but that did not address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214528486cedd49ec98a526c723e340f4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I believe, in fairness, that in the early part of the Minister\u2019s answer she re-emphasised the fact that the Government does not have an official measure of child poverty. If there is no official measure of child poverty, it is not possible to estimate the number of children who have been lifted out of poverty. In that regard, I believe the member\u2019s question was answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a3dc9bd87741ee93bd0677aa645a22\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What did she base her answer on yesterday, when she said that there was not a lot of work being done in research and evaluation of children\u2019s policy, in light of the following reports: the Ministry of Health report on child health and well-being, the Public Health Advisory Committee\u2019s report on child health, her own ministry\u2019s report on indicators of child well-being, the household incomes inequality report, the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor report, the Child Poverty Action Group\u2019s annual reports, the OECD Doing Better for Children report, and the Every Child Counts report\u2014every one of them highlighting child poverty in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f388c101fbf14689810ab4183065269e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What I was referring to was the evaluation and the effectiveness of programmes, so it would be fair to say that when National came into office, and certainly when we were in Opposition, we had concerns about how effective they were in reaching those children, and then how good some are, compared with others. We have done some work\u2014as much as we can\u2014in starting those evaluations and working our way through them. We have held a number to account, and I make no apologies for that, but I do think there is still a lot more work to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1317ea04d5f42fe92f032e18caee7a2\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Growing Up in New Zealand longitudinal study, commissioned by the Ministry of Social Development, involving 7,000 children and their families, provide the Government with the sort of research that will enable it to formulate policies for children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605e88ee23f04c618b047ac83c6069c6\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The member raised the longitudinal study Growing Up in New Zealand yesterday. When we came into Government a huge investment had already been made by the previous Government into that study. However, it had not funded it ongoing, so within weeks of being in this job I was informed that we had to find money to keep the study going. I had to go to my colleagues, cap in hand, and ask them to find some money out of their baseline. We have since put millions of dollars more into that study and do support it. But $25.9 million into the longitudinal Growing Up in New Zealand study, out of taxpayers\u2019 pockets, is a lot of money and I think it is an incredibly fair investment in that programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252649bfc94fe4e3b9e3e5dff26a5b0d4\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Ministry of Social Development funding the study, and is the funding continuing from the ministry after July 2012; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71c18d1c84a4799ba6c6f9f9a7e5a86\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have all the facts in front of me, because the member did not actually ask that in her main question. If she wants more information on the longitudinal study I would welcome a written question. But I can say that we have supported the longitudinal study. I have had to find millions more dollars, since I have been Minister, to keep it going. I think an investment of $25.9 million into the longitudinal study over a period of time shows our commitment to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283fcc4aa8697494d93261d16c4df7036\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. When will the Government be implementing the M\u0101ori Party policy of having a polity measure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ffa1c61fe842238ff102ba502cc02f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is not on the Government\u2019s time line at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077526886eb1433c819233b14645012d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Has she not been told that the funding from the Ministry of Social Development has been stopped, from July 2012, and is she aware of the outcomes of withdrawing such funding for a project that requires ongoing research through to at least 2014, which include the loss of participants, the loss of data, the loss of goodwill, and putting the whole project in jeopardy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228eb164bc09749cbbdb7f93e216a57af\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As I have stated, I am more than happy to answer questions and put the actual facts on the table for the member because I do not believe that she has her facts right and that funding does stop there. We had a huge hole in funding that we had to find millions of dollars to fill, and we have done that. I think members will see that we have ongoing funding for the longitudinal study. I am sure that there are gaps in some of it. We are trying to fill them, but there were no appropriations ongoing from the previous Government for that study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225412c4ab4e1a4b329128776f9ff7b9d9\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister apologise to this House when it is shown that funding from the Ministry of Social Development does stop in July 2012, as I have been advised by the University of Auckland today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b770d7765ff545e1904943a5832fcf26\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I will apologise when the previous Government apologises as well for the hole in funding it left the programme with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0f8622679964dd698f672c7cf430349\u0022\u003EBroadband, Ultra-fast\u2014Wellington\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022741c2f0ad44e4e95855f44d0bbc4294d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022741c2f0ad44e4e95855f44d0bbc4294d\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister for\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454baa485b9e43d38a5bedc067d7dcbb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member. I say to the front-benchers that, please, I have called Katrina Shanks. We have dealt with the previous question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022321f1a5a176a4dd9850936c4c83bf5b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022321f1a5a176a4dd9850936c4c83bf5b3\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: What progress has the Government made on rolling out ultra-fast broadband in Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19a231cb195450483ad5e3f40336593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19a231cb195450483ad5e3f40336593\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Good news. I was delighted to attend the commencement of the roll-out of ultra-fast broadband in Wellington just last week in the Lower Hutt suburb of Kelson. In the next 12 months, over 9,000 premises across Wellington will be passed with new fibre, which when combined with existing fibre will total around 29,000 priority users in homes covered in the first year. This excellent progress in Wellington is just one part of the wider national roll-out that is currently seeing broadband deployment already under way in Whangarei, Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga, and Whanganui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093375c0d1dc4bb4913995a495ac27fb\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: How will the roll-out improve broadband services and economic productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa4b30f300d84250ada2423b77ea8a24\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: By the time the roll-out is completed in Wellington, fibre will cover a population of almost 390,000 people, as well as 7,900 business premises, many schools, and more than 1,500 medical and other health care services. Fibre with ultra-fast capability will mean business people, innovators, and entrepreneurs in our capital city grant will have a platform from which to compete with anyone anywhere in the world. In addition, we are boosting retail competition by ensuring the newly built network is open to retailers on equal terms. Wholesale prices will be as low as half the current price for business services, and residential customers will enjoy a vastly improved service for as much as they currently pay, or less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b784eb7230764029a0e93f45a222d482\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Amongst the good news was there the fact that the broadband is broad enough to get the very big message to Katrina Shanks that the Prime Minister supports Peter Dunne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6aa57612c30474eab7bade37c7180ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the Minister\u2019s responsibility, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56ed8f385e54513b5de0efd51bf7025\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The capacity of broadband to get big messages through the system is something that is certainly his responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e08e12ec18142a0ae05fefdca06a37a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s point, except I have ruled the question out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541f680925fc4087b1275a10d9011db7\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What progress is expected\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723b8dbbaf284cdb87a4c4fe5f1a2be0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fortunately I did not hear any of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc56e23c4ac944a7a53940bc85e08f15\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What progress is expected on connecting marae, r\u016Bnanga, k\u014Dhanga reo, and w\u0101nanga with ultra-fast broadband?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230807fb349f04d87bb84375463251357\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Under the ultra-fast broadband programme these are all priority users for fibre to the home and they will be provided, by the end of 2015, right across the country. Also, under the rural broadband programme further marae will be connected, as well. The Government is continuing to work with Ng\u0101 P\u016B Waea to maximise the benefit of the ultra-fast broadband to iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau. Once again, I take the opportunity to thank the M\u0101ori Party for its support in ensuring that this transformational programme for New Zealand is proceeding on time and quickly, to the country\u2019s benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bd841e582794c9c833299c81a2528c1\u0022\u003EChildren, Hospital Admissions\u2014Respiratory and Infectious Diseases\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228afedb6e0f3a48349dd8072712d407cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228afedb6e0f3a48349dd8072712d407cf\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Have hospital admissions for children with respiratory diseases and infectious diseases increased over the last three years; if so, by how much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2fda38d6b69495aaef9661edf7f4feb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2fda38d6b69495aaef9661edf7f4feb\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As the member will be aware, there are a number of respiratory and infectious diseases that children can suffer from, including pneumococcal disease, whooping cough, measles, bronchiolitis, bronchiectasis, rheumatic fever, asthma, skin infections, and others. I am advised by the Ministry of Health that hospital admission data for the last year is not yet complete for most of these conditions. However, I have seen the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor: 2011 Update, which advises that in the 2007-10 calendar years there was an increase in admissions for certain medical conditions for children. At the same time there have been reductions in rates of others, such as invasive pneumococcal disease, but here in New Zealand there is more to be done in this important and challenging area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad89733caaf4fd598365d8ed8ca8b1b\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can he then confirm that the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor report says that 5,000 more children were admitted to hospital for avoidable medical conditions in 2010 compared with 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c49be25670e45fd93315f7b2797d025\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not my report, but I certainly read those numbers in the report. I remind the member that a couple of those years were in part of his Government. I can also comment to the member that I have also seen the comments of Associate Professor Cindy Kiro, who says that the recent update indicates that although these admissions are still increasing, the rate of increase appears to be slowing, with possible early signs of improvement in some groups\u2014potentially, Pacific children. Professor Kiro puts these improvements down to interrelated factors, two of which she identifies as, first, the Healthy Homes initiative, and, second, the much better intake of immunisation in the last couple of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea58eb241624f25b89275be87a23501\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Are the authors of the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor report correct when they say that children may be suffering \u201Cpermanent health damage\u201D because preventable illnesses are not being treated because parents are struggling with the cost of living, including the cost of getting medical treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759e33a4d72845e38612427ba01cb07f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly would agree that some children are suffering permanent damage if certain diseases are not remedied, and that is the reason why I was in Hawke\u2019s Bay this morning, to launch the Government\u2019s roll-out of the first of the rheumatic fever programmes, at the Irongate primary school. The rheumatic fever programme\u2014$12 million over 4 years\u2014is a substantial investment targeted specifically at a disease that causes irreparable damage to young children. This has actually been a national health goal since 2001, when it was set under the previous Government. But, as that member knows, although that Government set it as a goal, it never did anything about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b31dfee106d343a9894f27c51b2a9627\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that his removing of the target for district health boards to reduce avoidable admissions to hospital may have contributed to the increase of 5,000 more children being admitted for avoidable medical conditions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3df43dcff2f4f97b199abd9db7c931d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not agree with that, because in one of the key groups, children under the age of 5, the advice is that avoidable hospital admissions are in fact coming down. The target that the Government puts great store on is the increase in immunisation for 2-year-olds, where we have taken it from 73 percent of 2-year-olds being immunised to over 90 percent today. This morning I received an email from the Western Bay of Plenty Primary Health Organisation to advise that, now 98 percent of M\u0101ori 2-year-olds are fully immunised, and then a few hours later, I received a text from the Eastern Bay of Plenty Primary Health Organisation to advise that it has hit 94 percent across both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, the highest levels ever achieved in those communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c9eff2d25184e4ca21a5ce05967b01d\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister reinstate a national health target for avoidable hospitalisations, in light of the fact that 5,000 more children were admitted to hospital for avoidable medical conditions in 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8a29ecad499495c880503f32f7848de\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has a number of key preventive health measures that impact positively on children. The first is immunisation, where we now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a87a07ee80842ecae9289c7846669ee\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a very direct question. It asked whether the Minister would reinstate the target. That was the question that was asked. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a181be96f94d39b486b5680cd88599\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order has been called. To avoid uncertainty, I will invite the member to repeat his question, because I am still struggling to hear accurately today, and I apologise for that. The member may repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222171f99569e64cc39ba1a1d5279a3af9\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he reinstate a national health target for avoidable hospitalisations, in light of the fact that 5,000 more children were admitted to hospital for avoidable medical conditions in 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8df076534f849e3a7557cb76a5162ea\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not make it a national health target, because the Government has a number of health targets already specifically targeted at good health promotion and prevention for children, the first of which is immunisation, where we have closed the gaps. Where that party opposite talked about doing a better deal for M\u0101ori and never achieved it in 9 years, we have closed the gap, and in many parts of New Zealand M\u0101ori kids have a higher immunisation rate. The second issue, of course, goes directly to respiratory disease, and it is the work we are doing to stop smoking, which has been internationally recognised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220697246a444645b9976ef9d1a3156613\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265efd2024ec340caae66f8fac7968b20\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member, I say to the deputy leader of the Labour Party, who has been a little bit vociferous today in her interjecting, that she heard her colleague call a point of order, and kept interjecting across the House. [Interruption] I am finding it very difficult to hear because of these cousins on each side of the front bench here, expressing cousinly affection for each other. If they could desist, it would assist me hugely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224434fe660d574c3d9de737726a01f67a\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a segment of the Children\u2019s Social Health Monitor report entitled \u201CHospital Admissions and Mortality with a Social Gradient in Children\u201D, which shows that 5,000 additional children were admitted to hospital with avoidable conditions in 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbd5d7f828db4648986dd854edbf92e0\u0022\u003EWater, Agricultural Uses\u2014OECD Recommendation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022af0d2ea22af04b7eb11e8fa4a9068ec7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af0d2ea22af04b7eb11e8fa4a9068ec7\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Will the Government adopt the OECD\u2019s 2011 recommendation that New Zealand implement water charging for agricultural uses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ceade61424494e8cb25a7fb0a34aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ceade61424494e8cb25a7fb0a34aca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The OECD report makes many recommendations, and some of the issues it has raised are already covered by current Government policy. This Government is committed to water reform, and to date we have been working very closely with the Land and Water Forum. The forum has also made a number of recommendations, and included in those is the recommendation that consideration be given to allocating as efficiently as possible water for industrial, agricultural, and domestic purposes. The Government has still to respond to the forum\u2019s recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdcd721c18f84ee29e38ec692d7ebf07\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Was the OECD wrong when it said about New Zealand: \u201CWith little pricing of water resources, water scarcity is being felt increasingly acutely in some dairy-intensive regions prone to drought.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216271535982d474ba174d60756f7310c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, but it is important to note that the OECD report said upfront: \u201CThe country\u2019s environment is of high quality\u201D. It did, however, recommend continued development of better measurement of water abstraction, something which the Government has done, and on water quality via national guidelines, which again is something this Government has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc799fc2d0a04f138120bedf367dd618\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will a charge on irrigation water benefit the New Zealand economy by driving efficiency gains in the irrigation sector, and also decreasing the pressure on overallocated rivers and aquifers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f261227128c14e9c86bda5266d90c186\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is wrong to assume that farmers do not pay now for water. If they are involved in significant community or regional schemes, there is a charge. If they are involved in extracting water, they already also pay considerable costs for the benefit of the water that they use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a8e810795d4a40ab7cd51c9082d1e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the honourable member for his further question, I say the question asked whether water charges could improve efficiency in terms of the allocation of water, as I understood the question. The answer said farmers already pay a charge, but made no comment whatsoever about whether charging for water could have any impact on the efficiency of water use. I believe the Minister should make some attempt to answer that, because the question was, I think, a reasonable question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022569407151c0a407f9adf3c1ef4174cb3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Some attempts to put additional charges on water could well lead to more efficient use of water. The very fact that we are now requiring irrigators, over time, to measure their water abstraction will also clearly lead to more efficient use of water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c697171e03994813b5cbbcb259ebcdb0\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Should we understand from that that the Government is leaving open the door to introducing a charge on irrigation water? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222108f44acaf74fce82b1ff9569698ca5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No. What the member should take from that is that we are working very closely with the Land and Water Forum, which has made a number of recommendations. As I said earlier, some of those recommendations include finding ways to more efficiently allocate water not only to agricultural uses but also to domestic and industrial uses, and the Government will respond to the forum\u2019s recommendations when it is ready to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12df1d5bb464d7d8015a26561098034\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister therefore rule out the introduction of a charge on irrigation water in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415a9c127082496e85e92201a7794a00\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will respond to the Land and Water Forum when the Government is ready to respond to the Land and Water Forum recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e37ce9a33c046d9bbace670c5ad3a8d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was an absolutely clear question. The Minister might say no, but he did not really address the question at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229201e4969a3494dab39fd651bd381af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In fairness, on this occasion I think the member asked whether the Minister would rule out charges for irrigation water, and the Minister, in reply, said the Government was making no decision or announcements until it had finished its consideration of a report advising the Government on these matters. I think that it is a reasonable position not to rule anything out until the Government has reached a position on advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef56614a0f96480b884c56f51c017c3f\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Speaker\u2019s interpretation of his last answer: that he is not ruling out a charge on irrigation water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794ef05161124b68af0ed5596bcb83b4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In this matter it is important that the Government takes a position, not just I myself as the Minister of Agriculture. The Government will take a position, and when we do so we will respond to the Land and Water Forum recommendations. At that time the member will know what the Government has decided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3d0efa77dd498b87fe98c06543fb3d\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister therefore confirm, in relation to his last answer, that the Government has not at this point ruled out introducing a charge on irrigation water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240dd343acac047d4b98942006c8a2ede\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is considering very carefully the recommendations of the Land and Water Forum and will respond to those recommendations in the very near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe904801cea41a1863ef83b396b22fd\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With regard to the answer in the last question, am I to take it from you that your previous ruling stands: that that answer, again, was that he is not ruling it out? Is that what you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e10e8ac5021440c3b94f9350c384078c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot rule in that way at all. But I think it is a perfectly fair answer for a Minister, when asked whether or not they will rule matters in or out, and when the Minister, on behalf of the Government, is in the process of considering advice on a significant issue like that, not to pre-empt any decisions that the Government might make. I cannot ask a Minister to answer any more precisely than that when a matter is under consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6948c54dc32447992d3ce8782d071c8\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Retention of 20 Hours Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2694ce18fe140ac981de5ea436f69a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2694ce18fe140ac981de5ea436f69a0\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her commitment on The Nation on 20 August 2011, that low and middle income families would not pay more for 20 hours of early childhood education in the next three years if the Government is re-elected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00225d449dbc41454a6c8e9f93eb6cd8e6a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d449dbc41454a6c8e9f93eb6cd8e6a8\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E That is not what I said. If the member listens to the interview again, she will hear that I was not asked about low-income families. But I can tell the House that this Government will be maintaining the 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education policy, should we be re-elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273393362cd464885b83a48ed0b513ec1\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The text of that question was validated by your office, and the Minister has disputed that that was a statement that she made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f5aac4a80945bfa384ff2652337825\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And it is absolutely the right of a Minister to do that. Although a question is validated as being compliant with the Standing Orders, a Minister is still at liberty to totally disagree with what may be included in the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf43f6bdcf074b5c9c800052b6f14ac2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Did she make the comment that was referred to in the primary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a37554cca05947fa8b7a7d90f636c7f2\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: My answer to the primary question was that I was not asked about low-income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a746ca2b189447229f51a8112d462bad\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very direct question: did she make the comment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dde20b52b6d44158963f83aaca07b77\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear what the member\u2019s point of order is. The member did not ask whether the Minister was asked in this interview about low to middle income families. The question was whether she made this comment about low to middle income families, and that is a different question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b4a01b8c7c4e84b2a92bb401f96932\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I was neither asked nor did I make comment about low-income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb53f16533146c283e35ca79adec11a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b3e11201ba4a8bab6dcc72f5f25867\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit her Government to keeping the existing subsidies in place for 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education for the next 3 years if it is re-elected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022193bef076ca044979bf90c229a3d1b96\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is good to hear the Opposition talking about this Government being re-elected. What I can say is that this Government will be retaining 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education and fee controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1fd93087af422bab0e5bd17726720d\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was specifically about keeping the existing subsidies in place for 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education, and the Minister made no reference to that in her answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216781a83434043918db375af14e63e4e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Given the unnecessary comment at the start of the answer, I think the Minister should be asked to answer the question again. The question was quite specific. It contained no criticism of the Government; it just asked whether it was the Government\u2019s intention to maintain current subsidies during a further term, should it be re-elected. I do not believe the answer was fair in responding to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200722605156548b0876f88f5c6b63cee\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the question is that we will be retaining the 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education and fee controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265e773593ab64c939f779620bae758f3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Again, the Minister failed to answer the question, which was about keeping the existing subsidies in place for 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education for the next 3 years if re-elected to Government. The Minister has made reference to fee controls. She has made no reference to the specific question, which is the only part of this question, about the existing subsidies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c2af1afb2e74514add2e769cd9d7053\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member who asked the question has a fair grievance, in that the question asked about subsidies and the answer spoke about 20 hours and fee caps. I might be stupid, but I do see a difference. When members, commendably, ask straight questions, I think it is in the interest of the House that they are answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216615d7926774b398cdbd9c5148d48f1\u0022\u003EHon Steven Joyce\u003C/span\u003E: I am new here, but my sense is that obviously 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education is a subsidy programme, and I would have thought that the Minister did answer the question. Perhaps more broadly, I think we are getting into a situation this afternoon where members of the Opposition are not only seeking to ask questions but also seeking the exact answers that they want, as well. It is perhaps getting a little bit tough, because the Minister does have the ability to answer the question that I think the member asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d69e0bbaa5466e9f0602345c15c74f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any further help on this matter. As I said, I might be stupid, but members have a right to ask questions and Ministers are accountable. Where questions are absolutely within Ministers\u2019 portfolio areas, they are accountable to answer those questions. The question did not ask whether the Government intended to keep the 20 hours policy in place. The question did not ask whether the Government intended to keep a fees cap in place. The question asked whether the Government intended to maintain the current subsidy levels. I cannot help with regard to the questions asked. It is not my job as the Speaker to stop members asking questions. It is a fair question, it is in the public interest, and I believe it should be answered. It may be that no decision has been made; it may be that there are trade-offs in certain areas. But to ignore the question totally is, in my view, not on, because Ministers are accountable to this House and the House deserves an answer. As I say, the question was commendable in that it did not make any criticism of Government policy. It was a straight question, and I believe it deserves to have some kind of answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b20fc2983734dd4b42334d39824f194\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I attempted to answer the question by saying this Government, should it be re-elected, intends to maintain 20 hours\u2019 early childhood service, which is a subsidy programme, and the fee controls. They are the two essential parts of 20 hours: universal provision of early childhood services for 20 hours for every 3 and 4-year-old, with fee controls\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d50212b102841a1b8ac103668d042cc\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b076adfc5f74b46963c249b0b623e14\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not free. It never has been free, which is why we renamed it. It was never free\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a3e3dec6b7c46f9b9bd091c9e7603ea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have assisted the Opposition to obtain an answer here. To put up a barrage like that when the Minister is answering the question as she sees appropriate is not on. If members of the Opposition want the Speaker to assist in getting answers, they should treat answers with more dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713a2de52df943b7995381a6e6369205\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is something happening towards the end of November, which is called an election, and if the Opposition wants to know what the Government\u2019s policy is, it will have to wait until it is announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230801a45bd5849c7950f24043a7d26a3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister says the subsidy programme will continue for 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education, is she committing to the same level of subsidies that currently exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee2fbecb83e4c318358b711830beb10\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have just said any election policy will have to be announced as part of an election policy, but this Government is committed to 20 hours. We have extended it to k\u014Dhanga reo, Playcentre, and 5-year-olds, and we have said we would maintain fee controls. Parents like it, parents use it, and we will retain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bacb11e5cc594c7abe4c2237935fa1ab\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Do her promises on this issue carry the same weight as her promise in National\u2019s 2008 education policy that \u201CNational is also committed to keeping all other ECE funding.\u201D, given that she subsequently cut $285 million from early childhood education in 2009 for improved staff-child ratios and $400 million in 2011 for centres employing more than 80 percent qualified staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a70b8f976ee49f298db3a9168e334bf\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is pretty rich to get that sort of a question from an Opposition party that, when in Government, allowed early childhood education spending to treble while less than 1 percent more children turned up at school having experienced early childhood education. This Government has increased the spending on early childhood education by almost 40 percent over what the last Government spent, and we are determined to make sure that those children that will benefit the most from it\u2014that is, M\u0101ori and Pasifika children, and children from poorer backgrounds\u2014actually get access to good-quality early childhood education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e981f6fbf94a279ebb97cf078fe538\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the education policy document from 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786cd8c10dba449bb5412210fd8658d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We will not do that sort of thing; that is all available to members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a12237b8a5486ab32eb6e38770a42c\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Will she rule out any funding cuts to home-based early childhood education and k\u014Dhanga reo, should her Government be re-elected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc3110bed704720942ca599eda01289\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has proven time and time again that it believes in having a diverse sector. We believe in having a very diverse early childhood education sector. If there are any changes made to the funding system, it would be to make it less bureaucratic and much more flexible than it currently is, and to maintain the diversity. Home-based care is extremely important, as are parent-led services, to parents. We believe in parents having choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d7544b1b86340f2afe663b1ff621303\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was very straightforward: will she rule out any funding cuts to home-based early childhood education and k\u014Dhanga reo?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e33d04254224526b94a2f7feeebcea8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has done pretty well today, but, as has been pointed out, some of these questions are about what the Government might do after the election. The Minister made it clear that there is an election policy to be finalised in this area. I think that was a fair answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022309fc000ebd5483f9b30d85b02ee50cb\u0022\u003EUnemployment Beneficiaries\u2014Number\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00226000533f600b4da8a8cf68bacd581244\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226000533f600b4da8a8cf68bacd581244\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232023c99e5684716beefa2f5ec838bf8\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Dead man walking!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36fc5d73efa47babef7d1e15a0fe72e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265742c429f8415f8253a57c48735891\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It is better being 40 on National\u2019s list\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250378384da28489c9a07cb656ddbabf6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce640329d51e49bea7507ae670d88559\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014than 15 on their list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d06bbfb3ca4bc1bc823d415cb31c33\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat right now. I am very tempted to move straight on to question No. 8, because the member wilfully ignored the fact I was on my feet. The only reason why I am not is that there was a fairly provocative interjection. But let me warn the member that that will not work again. The Hon Tau Henare, question\u2014[Interruption] The Hon Trevor Mallard on this occasion is not being particularly helpful. I call the Hon Tau Henare, question No. 7\u2014[Interruption] No, the member will just ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2023f9b0c934a1a8298bcc56435c09a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2023f9b0c934a1a8298bcc56435c09a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has she received on the latest benefit figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9449f6004ff44df823606bef30ac616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9449f6004ff44df823606bef30ac616\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Numbers put out today say that last month the number of people receiving the unemployment benefit was 55,974. That is the lowest it has been since July 2009, a drop of 18 percent since its peak in January last year when 68,369 people were on the unemployment benefit. In August the number of people on the unemployment benefit dropped by 1,145, with half of the decrease due to more young people going into work. The overall number of New Zealanders on benefits is 328,355.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee63898d97f4fe69365634750b745b9\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How many young people came off the benefit and went into work during August?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f3a6d13eea4db4ba144103eb76be5e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: In August 2,471 18 to 24-year-olds cancelled their main benefit to move into work. We have seen the number of young people on the unemployment benefit drop by 32 percent, from 23,545 in January 2010 to 15,980\u2014the highest we saw the numbers go down during the economic downturn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022581ba5141e2d4145859859ef8ef0e900\u0022\u003ETransport Planning, Auckland\u2014Auckland Council\u2019s Draft Plan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00229a4421d31d3049d98af7c0ad784bd34b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a4421d31d3049d98af7c0ad784bd34b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he endorse the transport elements of the draft Auckland Plan; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00225e2c586d20444813a4052baa9afb18f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e2c586d20444813a4052baa9afb18f9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E It is not appropriate for me to endorse or otherwise any aspect of the draft Auckland plan at this time. The Auckland Spatial Plan is the Auckland Council\u2019s plan, and the council will be consulting the community on it. The Government strongly endorses the process, but its role is to provide input, not to formally endorse it. With regard to transport elements, the Government will continue to consider individual projects on their merits if the Government or its agencies are called on to provide funding assistance. In this context it is important to remember that central government is currently contributing over $1 billion a year towards Auckland\u2019s transport needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543102711845409b8c60a8f4c812286e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm the New Zealand Herald\u2019s report that he and Ministers Hide, Smith, and Heatley, at their 26 August meeting with the Auckland mayor and Auckland Council, could not stop browbeating the councillors over the draft plan\u2019s commitment to urban intensification in a way that was \u201Cintimidating and small town\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022624f0b31ca5843e083ba1ed1b9470963\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s wrong with small towns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe6534128184c9a90b966699ac00d45\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do not know that we should be picking on small towns. I point out that that was a view of a prominent left-wing politician from Auckland, who might have a slight conflict of interest, and it was reported by a prominent left-wing columnist from Auckland, who might also have a certain interest in this matter: a certain Mr B Rudman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221198fd27d45d4243b1545988773f32a9\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the alternative to a compact city supported by a modern public transport system is an Auckland that sprawls endlessly and a traffic jam from the harbour bridge to Whangarei?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0861ec2203f4430a137e88f53d453e3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know that I would want to make too many comments on the Auckland plan at this point, but I would say that we on this side of the House believe strongly in people having the right to determine where they live and the way in which they want to live. We think it is an important principle, provided, of course, that they meet the cost of those decisions. I think that is an important point to make. I understand that Mr Twyford might have a strong view that everybody should live on top of each other, but others might disagree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d80b1a8eb9ab4766b5b8dbde424712ca\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Is the city rail link his No. 1 transport priority for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b90af077bba44fea948ae2876b15b60\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not, actually. The current priorities for Auckland are many and varied. They include the Waterview project, which the Government is building currently, the Victoria Park Tunnel project, the electrification of the rail in Auckland, the Newmarket Viaduct, and a number of other very important investments in Auckland. Currently, the central business district rail link has a benefit-cost ratio of about 0.3, and I think that we can all say that it probably needs to have an improvement in that before any responsible Government would seek to invest in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d842ea6c1f4b67af759a81a2c32fd3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government go to the trouble of creating a unified Auckland when it is very clear that the Government is determined to undermine and block Auckland Council\u2019s plan for a world-class transport system and a compact city?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc9e536736f4d6fb61fdbbd7fe95ce2\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is simply incorrect. It is an important project for a unified Auckland. I think it is a very important project, and Auckland Council is currently consulting on its new spatial plan, which is a very important part of the unified Auckland process. I think it is great that it is doing so and that people are getting the opportunity to comment. I note that the member is assisting in that matter, as well. In fact, I understand that he had a public meeting on Monday night and that up to maybe eight people turned up. On that current progress, if he was to hold more public meetings, he could possibly cover the whole of Auckland\u2014once he has got to 162,500 public meetings\u2014and be able to consult on the future of the Auckland plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd18c8cde9be4b9ead8b2ce3ef6918a2\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What is his advice to Government members who have claimed that the city rail link is this Government\u2019s No. 1 transport priority in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8544175431748b8baea6e9f225a05f9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: My advice to the Government members would be to attract more people to their public meetings than the eight that Mr Twyford was able to attract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213d27a366fee40c3aebebff684ad1a47\u0022\u003ECanterbury District Health Board\u2014Funding for Earthquake-related Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022491e6ce04917469d8910a722d3821fed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022491e6ce04917469d8910a722d3821fed\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps has the Government taken to improve outpatient and other health services to the people of Canterbury following the earthquakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c65aa80102e649e497871ee94b226dd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c65aa80102e649e497871ee94b226dd9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The district health board\u2019s earthquake recovery plan has identified a need to increase short to medium term medical bed capacity, and to relocate most components of the general medical service back on to the Christchurch Hospital site. The Government is announcing this afternoon that we have fast-tracked approval of $15 million in capital funding to relocate the outpatients facility and the acute medical assessment unit. This will enable the district health board to achieve shorter waiting times, to meet the growth in outpatient demand, to improve medical team efficiency, and to improve staff satisfaction and morale. Both of these projects will be completed in time to ensure that the new facilities are available for the 2012 winter peak demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc57d3ca87644a9b24a8d12b1c0e21e\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What other support has the Government given to the Canterbury District Health Board to manage the impact of the earthquakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248bda5892eb642679b5deb529e7ee58b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The staff of the Canterbury District Health Board have simply done an outstanding job of providing good-quality services to the people of their community in the most difficult of times and circumstances. I advise the member that in addition to the $15 million for the new outpatient facility and acute medical assessment unit, in June this year the Government pledged a special payment of up to $16 million to the district health board to assist with earthquake-related service costs for the 2010-11 financial year. This $16 million is in addition to the new funding for buildings and facilities. The Government has also made it clear that further special payments to the district health board over the next couple of years can be expected to cover ongoing extra costs as a result of the earthquake, to help the people of the district health board get the best possible services for the people of Canterbury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022731ddeaf32564ec68de1f13e7a70d275\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Parameters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022472433ee64dd448e800c5f7eb5d11ef9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472433ee64dd448e800c5f7eb5d11ef9\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does the Government\u2019s privatisation plan include parameters which would cause it to cancel sales, such as low sale prices or high dividend yields; if so, what are the parameters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab11a7b912fc4a618f93d2178d4f6fc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab11a7b912fc4a618f93d2178d4f6fc5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the first place, the Government is not getting ahead of itself. It has always said it would get a mandate from New Zealanders before proceeding with the detailed plans for the sale. The mixed-ownership model is about achieving long-term value for taxpayers. The Government has said that if it is re-elected, such a programme would be spread over 3 to 5 years, which gives the Government ample flexibility to adjust to market circumstances. In the current environment, demand from New Zealand investors is likely to be strong. The NZX 50 Index has risen 27 percent in the past 18 months, and that looks reasonably favourable, at least at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8b85747ced456c9bcf4f9721ead7d9\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Has the record $900 million of dividends returned to the Crown by the State-owned energy companies in the last year, on top of an average rate of return of 17.5 percent over the previous 5 years, caused him to reassess the economic case for selling these highly profitable State-owned assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7cb3a5072441bbb76f41ca1d9810e8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As I pointed out yesterday, of the $900 million the member is talking about, at least $500 million is a one-off capital release as a result of the sale of assets between Genesis and Meridian Energy. The fact is that until this Government came into office and lifted the performance of these State-owned enterprises, they were pretty abysmal. They are better now, and under the mixed-ownership model they will improve further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022facf260acfb64f52867576c18a861752\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Given that 75 percent of New Zealanders earn below the average wage of $50,000, and only 1.5 percent earn above $150,000, what percentage of hard-working Kiwi families does he think will be able to afford $4,000 to directly buy shares in an asset they already own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5e19c484b0435db0d72b483d8863d8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders will have the opportunity to own these assets in a number of ways. First, the Government will retain 51 percent ownership. Second, we expect significant investment by the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, which holds assets on behalf of all New Zealanders. KiwiSaver funds, which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022749afb08b5544539b50d8ee583d1c056\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have listened to the other two answers, and they have really been off the point. This one, really, I do not want to know who will own the shares, I just want to know what percentage it will be. The question asked what percentage of New Zealanders\u2014just a rough percentage\u2014he thinks will be able to afford to buy these shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea002cb4ccd437d8f6aaea23e800f4a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, the Minister was in the process of explaining why he believes that some percentage of New Zealanders will be able to afford to own them. He was talking about the Government owning 51 percent; I think he was going on to talk about funds owning some of these shares. When the member asks that kind of question, which is a hypothetical question, he cannot expect a precise answer. I think the Minister has some latitude in how he answers it. So far he has been answering the question in terms of why some percentage of New Zealanders should be able to own those shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0eca3a484794db3b507792f9c2552e8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With all due respect, the question was about direct ownership, not about indirect ownership via funds or via the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c386e66a7a644f9d8d683b701077343a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not recollect the question being quite so specific. It talked about, if I remember correctly, where people with $4,000 could be found to own these shares. The question was hypothetical. It is not the kind of question for which I can insist on any particular answer. I think the Minister was not criticising the questioner; he was explaining why he believes New Zealanders will be able to own these shares. I do not know whether he was arriving at an estimate, but I cannot stop him at this stage, when he has not departed from the Standing Orders in answering the question so far. I ask the Hon Bill English to finish his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b33d522959b441d938f192adc5fdfdb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Using the term the member uses, that New Zealanders already \u201Cown\u201D these shares, then any of those who do not actually put up cash to buy some of the shares will already own the shares that the Government already owns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223996888c05114f6c90ef80bb64401e61\u0022\u003EOnline Government Services\u2014igovt Log-on and Identity Verification Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u00229c79215da9a34063afe2167070da65d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c79215da9a34063afe2167070da65d4\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What announcements has he made regarding the igovt scheme, and increasing online access to government services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3d83b8eabb1495e9bb8de3e291cac12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3d83b8eabb1495e9bb8de3e291cac12\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Last week the Electronic Identity Verification Bill was introduced to Parliament, which will allow the igovt identity verification service to be used widely across Government and by the private sector. The igovt log-on and identity verification services provide an easy and secure way of accessing Government services online and proving identity. They have great potential to deliver better, more secure, and cost-effective online services to the public. I also announced last week an agreement that has been signed between the Department of Internal Affairs and New Zealand Post to develop and promote these services, which will help make these services much more accessible to the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222af8d4c186bf491798294e410d700f41\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What kinds of services can the igovt log-on and verification services be used for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974e350b530144e8900979b22c4e35da\u0022\u003EHon NATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Currently about 30 services are available, such as booking swimming lessons via the Wellington City Council or ordering a birth certificate through the Department of Internal Affairs. There are more than 320,000 igovt log-ons in use. This is far more convenient for the public, because they have to remember only one log-on detail rather than a whole bunch, and they do not have to queue in line with different forms of ID. With New Zealand Post coming on board and ultra-fast broadband rolling out across the country, we expect more and more services to become available in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022237d86b621dc4c959dc4ed194c8b3a5b\u0022\u003EWar Pensions, Law Commission Report\u2014A New Support Scheme for Veterans\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002240145f00d2d14907832d8bbcb4da0c29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240145f00d2d14907832d8bbcb4da0c29\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs: When can veterans expect a full response from the Government in response to the Law Commission report titled A New Support Scheme for Veterans: A Report on the Review of the War Pensions Act 1954 that was presented to Parliament on 1 June 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228e2cb2e079c04425984bb9fcdbdf9227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e2cb2e079c04425984bb9fcdbdf9227\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E When it is ready. For the member\u2019s information, it took 3 years for the Law Commission to present its report, with 170 recommendations. It did not provide draft legislation and it did not provide costings. It could not even tell us how many veterans there are in the community. But as the Law Commission noted, it has proposed significant changes, and it would not be possible to implement the proposed changes quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6adadb4e48645e580538913b0c16ad2\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister disagree with the contention of the Law Commission that, in some instances, a veteran has less support by way of the War Pensions Act than a comparable ordinary citizen who is supported by ACC; how can this disadvantage to the veteran be justified, and when is the Minister going to put right this injustice by implementing the provisions of the Law Commission report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5db31c93444b0584b38fc1455d4ec9\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. The situation is unfair, and we are aware that 39 veterans, if we were able to proceed with the Law Commission\u2019s report, would transfer to the veterans\u2019 weekly income compensation. However, I note that this anomaly is not new, and the previous Government was in the situation where it could have rectified that. It is certainly one of the recommendations that we are taking very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb03cc0b5b346bf8b12c825d996121e\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Law Commission on the establishment of an expert panel to develop prescriptive decision-making processes and guidance; if so, why has the Minister disbanded the expert panel this year, how does this demonstrate good faith to the veteran community, and, if the Minister disagrees with having an expert panel, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397008fe460a48a182e727f8601cfaae\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because one of the proposals is that I put forward another expert panel, which will be able to assist us in a much greater way. The fact is that this Government brought in the expert panel. The previous Government promised it; we brought it in. It has now fulfilled its requirements, and we wish to have another one that will better meet the needs of veterans. But after 9 long years of the Labour Government I think we have made a lot of progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdde5c7a918a4267ab32baba633ba6e6\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the delay in responding to the Law Commission report on the review of the War Pensions Act is because of the cost to the Crown, which in reality means a financial loss to the veteran community, and how can this be justified as being fair to veterans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31bb5bdbdfb447d96a55405df1a196c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262c3bcefc4d7477fa56d13d14cd1dfde\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ff8e6ad833847f9a7da0acf0cb5f5b3\u0022\u003ERailway Workshops, Petition\u2014Request for Submissions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1bf484446384ff8ac4158f12ffa8b43\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee: Has he requested any written submissions on the petition of George Laird, signed by nearly 14,000 people, calling the Government to retain the Hillside and Woburn workshops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f094d2867ddf44fab4b7d2b2dd0b5e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f094d2867ddf44fab4b7d2b2dd0b5e36\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I have not requested any written submissions on this petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc04f4aa9da40b48e3f6b3c56d2c8d7\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Did he, as chair, put a motion to the committee that a submission be called for from the petitioner, and did he rule that Michael Woodhouse voted against it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed10a90612ae483bb3a280a5a9e84f53\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What the member may have done as chair within the committee is a matter for the committee, and it is not in order for the member to be questioned on that. The workings of the committee are not matters that the member can be questioned on in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228323a54c21b146368cc53f63ce9a68c7\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223337136519464134981ff1ca4b507546\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002264f7d6fef1f84577bbf0233f27332098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264f7d6fef1f84577bbf0233f27332098\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. At the 2008 election National promised five trades academies. National promised to deliver five trades academies. Well, this week we have announced that next year there will be 21 trades academies\u201421. There will be 10 more trades academies starting next year. The number of students attending those trades academies will rise from 700 this year to 2,000 next year. These are 2,000 young people who are at risk of falling out of the school system. After attending these trades academies they will be better prepared to take up apprenticeships, to enter the workplace, or to go on to further study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003ENext year the number of 16 and 17-year-olds who are taking part in the wider Youth Guarantee, trades academies, and service academies, all supported by this National John Key - led Government, will rise to 10,000; 10,000 16 and 17-year-olds next year\u2014yep, 10,000. That is an outstanding effort, not just from this Government but from the schools, from the tertiary institutions, and from business and industry across this country, which have said: \u201CWe value these young people. We know that they are not necessarily succeeding in academia, in schooling, and we value them. We want them to be able to make a contribution as good New Zealand citizens, and we\u2019re prepared to get behind and support them.\u201D Next year there will be 10,000 16 and 17-year-olds in training. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThese trades academies have opened in New Zealand this year, for the first time ever. We have never had trades academies before. Between 125 and 150 schools are taking part in the scheme. These are partnerships between schools, tertiary institutions\u2014in some cases polytechs and in some cases private training enterprises\u2014and industry and business. A couple of these trades academies are being run by industry training organisations themselves. In particular, primary industry training organisations are working with 17 high schools right around New Zealand, making sure that young people who are interested in horticulture, agriculture, and forestry have the opportunity whilst they are still at school to take part in industry training and start on the way to getting their industry qualifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EAt the same time, of course, they are continuing their school work. They are continuing to do English, maths, and science. They are continuing to play sport, and continuing to take part in drama, in art, and in all the things that students enjoy about school. When we talk to these young people, and ask: \u201CHow\u2019s it going?\u201D\u2014the scheme has being going for only 6 months\u2014we can see the light in their eyes. For the first time in a long, long time, learning is interesting for many of them. Learning is something they want to do. In fact, one tutor at Christchurch said to me that he had had a call from a student\u2019s mother, asking: \u201CIs he really turning up at polytech at 8 o\u2019clock in the morning? Is he really there? Because he\u2019s never been anywhere at 8 o\u2019clock in the morning in his life.\u201D The tutor had to say: \u201CYes, he is there at 8 o\u2019clock and often he is there before me.\u201D When I talk to these young people up and down the country, they say that for the first time in many, many years they want to go to school. They want to learn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIn Christchurch on Monday the tutors were telling me that the students are doing so well with their maths and English that their schools are surprised at the scores they are getting in quite complicated maths and English studies. This is hard work, and we have to be aware that schools and tertiary institutions have worked really hard to put this scheme together. It has meant changes to their timetables, changes to their funding, and changes around staffing. It is not easy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWe cannot just throw money at training and hope that young people will suddenly stick at education or training. To show how tough it is we have only to look back at the Labour Government. In 1994 Helen Clark said: \u201CLabour makes a commitment within 3 years to have all under-20-year-olds in education, employment, and training.\u201D That was in 1994. Again in 1998 she repeated the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00223b5dd8e87afb475ab2aa45b491ba6910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b5dd8e87afb475ab2aa45b491ba6910\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am proud to be a member of the Labour Party, which is still sticking with the aspiration of making sure that every under-20-year-old is either earning or learning. National is a Government that has given up on that aspiration, as it has given up on young people. We do not see members on this side of the House walking away from something that we know is absolutely achievable. But if one listened to the Minister of Education, one would think we lived in some kind of rosy utopia. One would not think there were 58,000 young people not in education, training, or employment\u201458,000 young people doing absolutely nothing. The Minister claims that she has the answers to everything at secondary school level. The honest reality is that the Government has not done enough to address the fact that up until just 19 years of age we have 24,000 young people doing absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhat have we heard from the Government to address this issue? It has had almost 3 long years to address this issue and Labour has consistently raised the ways it could address that. What has the Government given us? It has given us make-work schemes, it has given us training places at the expense of other training places, it has cut $140 million out of skills and trade training, it has decimated the sector, not boosted it as it has claimed, and its last attempt was to give 1,600 young people a plastic card to moderate their purchasing of products that were already illegal for them to buy. That was the grand plan. Labour has said that that is just not good enough. There is absolutely no reason why 24,000 young people who are of the age where they should be in skills and trade training or education should be doing absolutely nothing. We are aspirational for young people, and that is why we have produced a package that at its full extent and its full potential has the possibility of placing 24,000 young people into work and into training, and into trade training in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWe have a plan. I have not heard a lot of commentary from members on the other side of the House about that plan. They know that we have fully addressed the scale of the issue, and it is enormous. That is why it will take an extra $250 million investment. The Government cannot claim that it is the same as its package. If it was, it would not cost $250 million to address. Not only have we set out what the plan would look like, but also we have set out how we would pay for it. It is a far bigger difference than what the Government has done in the past three youth unemployment packages. It said that its last one would cost roughly $25 million. There was no detail. It said that youth transition would just come out of baseline. That is not possible. There was no detail, and it is time that the Government was taken to task on the lack of detail it is giving the media, the public, and this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s plan covers four areas. In relation to secondary schools, we said we would boost Gateway to make sure an extra 500 young vulnerable people are given access to industry-based training while in school. We have said we would keep trade academies because we acknowledge that they are doing good work, but we need more. We would overhaul Career Services because it is not serving our young people well. We would make sure that the Youth Transition Service was nationwide. No school leaver should leave school without a plan for further training, education, or employment, and under Labour they will not. We have listened to the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs, as opposed to the Minister, who bullied them, browbeat them, then ignored them. On skills, we would ensure that instead of 9,000 young people getting the dole, a subsidy would go to employers directly to give them an apprenticeship. It makes no sense to pay a young person a dole payment when we could be giving them skills and trade training and an apprenticeship on the job, and the industry has welcomed that. It has welcomed that because it knows that we are investing long term. We will invest in a subsidy for 12 months because that is how long an apprentice costs an employer. Not only that, we will ensure there are 5,000 more training places, and M\u0101ori trade training, Pasifika training, and mentoring for each. There will be a boost to the Conservation Corps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAnd, most important, we acknowledge that none of this matters unless they have jobs to go to. Members on the other side of the House do not think the Government has any role in creating the economic conditions for job creation. Well, we do. On this side of the House we have created an end-to-end plan that is robust and that members opposite have been unable to pick a hole in, other than to accuse us of continuing to aspire to get young people earning or learning. I am proud of this plan. It gives young people hope and now it is time to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00222bb1fee763da427aa3db6147825b481f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bb1fee763da427aa3db6147825b481f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is always interesting to follow on from the passionate speech of a second or third cousin on the other side of the House. As an active farmer and the MP for the Taranaki - King Country electorate, which includes a large chunk of the Waikato, it is more than interesting to listen to Labour members talking about what they want to do, as opposed to what Labour did do when it was in Government for 9 long years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ELast week, by comparison, I attended the opening of an $80 million substantial extension to the New Plymouth - based hospital, where on the same day the Hon Tony Ryall opened a new health centre in Stratford in the heart of the Taranaki - King Country electorate. These are substantial actual improvements in health services. There have been an extra 4,337 elective surgeries under the Waikato and Taranaki district health boards in the 2009-10 year. These are real numbers, not the artificial and substantially inflated numbers that we hear from members on the other side. We have given $4.4 million to our small and poorer rural communities to upgrade their sewerage facilities. Over 13,000 Taranaki and Waikato homes have been insulated through National\u2019s Heat Smart scheme. There was a 4.4 percent drop in recorded crime in 2010 for central districts, and 3 percent for the Waikato. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThese are real achievements from the John Key Government. We have spent $3 million on upgrading schools in the electorate. This Government has major policy initiatives that will have a positive and ongoing effect on rural New Zealand electorates like Taranaki - King Country. The Primary Growth Partnership has invested something like $447 million in industry promotion and innovation, on-farm innovation and promotion, jobs, growth, market opportunities, environmentally sustainable technologies, and a higher standard of living for the whole of New Zealand. [Interruption] It is interesting to hear the members on the other side, because one thing that they always forget and always ignore when they are in Government is that the agricultural sector of New Zealand\u2014and Mr Speaker knows this as well as anyone in the House\u2014is the backbone of New Zealand and is the way forward for this economy. The opportunities that have opened up for exporting high-quality protein foods to the world because of the work of the John Key Government and Ministers like Tim Groser, who have been signing up and opening up trade opportunities for us, have never been greater. They have never been greater in the history of New Zealand. There has never been a greater opportunity. What would our opponents do? What would happen if they were given the chance? Well, they would entertain what they have always entertained: a tax-and-borrow-and-hope policy that has failed. It has failed so many times that we cannot remember. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhat else has the Key National Government done? There is $350 million worth of rural broadband initiative to be rolled out over the next few years. If we look at how we can compete internationally and become a very forward-thinking, modern, dynamic economy that is exporting that high-quality protein food to the world we see that one thing that is absolutely essential is for us to be linked to the world through high-speed technology and communications. So $350 million worth of broadband initiative will bring fast broadband to our rural communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAmendments to the Resource Management Act are always understated by members on the other side. You, Mr Speaker, as well as everyone else\u2014and I know I should not bring the Speaker into the debate, so I will refrain from doing that\u2014and most people in this House, know that there was a substantial reduction in growth and opportunity, and for a lot of the time it was without any real environmental impact. Reforming the Resource Management Act was an essential platform that the John Key National - led Government has undertaken. I look forward in the next 3 years, if we are successful at the next election, to growing the agricultural sector and improving our way in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00227058bd718c7b42e3bea747b62dd7f7d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227058bd718c7b42e3bea747b62dd7f7d3\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E In 2008 John Key said in a speech at Ellerslie: \u201CYoung people are a group I\u2019m passionate about. For they, more than anyone, will determine the future shape and prosperity of New Zealand. The energy and enthusiasm of the vast majority of our young people make me hugely optimistic for our country. But the sad fact is that a growing number are failing to deliver on their potential.\u201D I could not agree more, but 3 years down the track, what have we got? We have a Government that has actually delivered us 18,000 more people into unemployment and not into training. This is not about Job Ops; this was about \u201Cphoto ops\u201D. This is a Prime Minister who has concentrated on getting his photo up rather than on getting the jobs and delivering for the young people of this country. There are 18,000 more young people not in training and not in education. What sort of legacy is that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELet us look at some of the gimmicky projects this Government has rolled out in the last 3 years. We have Community Max, where people have learnt how to grow vegetables, but it does not turn that into any long-term jobs. We have boot camps, and these have failed absolutely miserably\u201490 percent of the people who went through those have started reoffending. We have created much more fit and able criminals. Even Sir Peter Gluckman in his report pointed out that this particular project has failed, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EMr Joyce has shown his passion by stripping $145 million out of vocational training and skills\u2014$145 million has come out rather than gone in. After 3 years of being passionate about our young people, we have seen something that is passionately dreadful. We have a situation where 18,000 more young people are unemployed and not in training, and that is pathetic. We know that 77,000 skilled people are needed in the construction area alone\u201477,000\u2014yet we know that, under this Government, Modern Apprenticeships, which teach the very skills that we are looking for, have declined by 15,000. Do we have any aspirations or plans? Did Mr Joyce have any aspirations or plans when he stripped $145 million out of this for the building sector and for creating those 77,000 skilled people whom we need? And we know we need them. We know that the leaky building project will need building people. We know we are not building enough houses in New Zealand. We know that Christchurch needs a huge building effort, but right now employers are not able to take on apprentices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWhat is Labour doing about it? We are making available 9,000 new places in apprenticeships. How are we doing that? We are doing that by enabling those people who once would have been paid the dole. We are helping employers to take on those people as apprentices. That is what we are doing. We are swapping the dole for assistance for employers to take on those people. There will be 9,000 additional apprenticeships. That is the sort of thing that one prepares for now, when one knows that further down the line we will need those people in those construction areas. There will be 1,000 new shared or group apprentices and 5,000 new training places. All up, there will be 25,000 training places and assisted employment places for those people whom I spoke about who are neither in employment nor in training. That is what Labour is passionate about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe are passionate about our young people. We are not passionate about those photo opportunities that Mr Key has followed and did not deliver on in 2008. And we have had the audacity of the Minister of Education, who came into this House today to talk about and boast about what she will do in the future when she has delivered virtually nothing of what she said in 2008 she would do. It is a disgrace. It is a disgrace that she came in and boasted about what she has not done for the young people of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u0022874e46d639b94530ac742c6b14aee83e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022874e46d639b94530ac742c6b14aee83e\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to tell Mr Shearer, who has just resumed his seat, that I spent last Saturday afternoon knocking on the doors of Melville and Frankton in the wonderful Hamilton West electorate. Even though it was a beautiful, sunny day in the winterless Waikato, it was not just that radiant sunshine that left me with a warm and happy feeling. Both Melville and Frankton are traditionally Labour-leaning areas but, judging by the response I was getting last Saturday, I have to say that members opposite should be worried\u2014they should be very worried, indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c796942cf9e4db18a6f1ad9a9bf6772\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be arrogant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6db2ef08034b5e8a86f5bccefb14bb\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing arrogant about this, I say to Ms Fenton; it is simply realistic. I was getting the response that I have been getting consistently in recent months, and that is a very realistic one. Everybody knows that times are tough, and everybody knows there are real issues out there that people are grappling with. But the thing I am detecting everywhere I go is a very realistic mood, and a strong sense of appreciation that the Government is on the right path, focusing on the things that matter, and delivering policies that will make a difference and see us back into growth, out of debt, and providing a much brighter future for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EPeople in my electorate tell me how grateful they are for the way our Government has stood by the people of Canterbury. I get that comment a lot. People tell me they are delighted that we are committed to reining in Government spending to prevent our debt from spiralling out of control. They are delighted that we are intervening in very positive ways in the lives of youth at risk and those who are in danger of being long-term welfare beneficiaries. These are the things that matter out in my electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee1c21b8a8ee46c4b68acc3472b54f90\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t believe you\u2019re happy about 58,000 young people being unemployed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d75750eb5eea4f8584fae5edbcc2bb45\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Beaumont that I had a very similar experience a couple of weeks ago, when I spoke to a Grey Power audience in my electorate. Again, Grey Power is not a traditional National Party audience, but what a wonderful, delightful group it was. That audience, and so many others, told me that despite the huge challenges that we have faced as a Government\u2014and they know what they are\u2014they are thrilled that we have rolled up our sleeves and tackled the things that matter, and that they can see we are delivering in a host of important areas. The public recognise and appreciate these facts and, most importantly\u2014and this is what they were telling me on the doorsteps in my electorate\u2014they have no desire whatsoever to go back to Labour\u2019s failed policies of borrow and hope, and tax and spend. They know that Labour\u2019s prescription will discourage private saving and investment, increase bureaucracy and red tape, and propel our doctors and other skilled graduates off to London and Sydney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003ESo I am very pleased that our Minister of Education kicked off today\u2019s debate by speaking about the success of, and the huge increase in, the number of trades academies. Last week I was privileged to speak at the graduation of the very first intake of the Waikato Institute of Technology, or Wintec, of its trades academy. I was particularly pleased when I spoke to the students, who told me that as a result of doing those courses they were much more motivated at school. Their tutors told me that attendance was almost at 100 percent and the few absences were absolutely genuine, and not only that but the attitude and application of the students has been first rate. They have appreciated the opportunity, they have got stuck in, and they now have a real sense of purpose and hope. They are responding to a great initiative. Is it not fantastic that this Government has increased\u2014by doubling\u2014the number of new trades academies for next year? I say well done to Anne Tolley, and well done to this Government; that is a great thing for our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EThere are other significant developments in my city that I want to tell members about. We in Hamilton are leading the way in the roll-out of ultra-fast broadband, and I am thrilled about that. We have committed, as a Government, $1.2 billion to our ultra-fast broadband initiative, which will see fibre rolled out to 50,000 premises around New Zealand in the next 12 months, including schools, hospitals, and businesses. I am delighted that Hamilton is leading the way in this initiative. Just last week I was pounding the streets in Forest Lake. I have done a lot of walking. Members can see that it has taken pounds off me, and I am absolutely delighted; I am no longer the size that I was. But there I was out in Forest Lake, and I met the technicians who were literally on the footpath delivering the high fibre to the gate, and it was fantastic. I was able to have a chat with them, and to say thank you for what they were doing and that it would make a huge difference. Together, over the 8\u00BD-year roll-out, the Crown\u2019s partnerships around the country will deliver about 25,000 kilometres of fibre\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254410105a8684d2db95566be321677b2\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08a6a898c954e54afc5b4d0671926a8\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201425,000 kilometres of cable\u2014enabling connections to about 1.1 million homes, over 100,000 businesses, in excess of 1,300 schools, and 6,000 medical facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003EI would love to talk about the health initiatives that are happening. There is also a great development of our university campus, and new buildings and classroom refurbishments in schools. A whole lot is happening. I am absolutely delighted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u00225375a60a1df742379cc3abd4e36cd3a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225375a60a1df742379cc3abd4e36cd3a4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E We have come along this afternoon and heard from the Labour Party about its concern for youth unemployment. We have heard about the lost opportunity, and we have heard about the so-called disgrace. Everyone in this House knows the underlying cause for that. Without a doubt, there is one single major cause. I see Mr David Carter shaking his head. It is a pity Mr Carter and his colleagues are not prepared to recognise that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThere was a very close relationship between youth unemployment and unemployment in the rest of the community, up until 2007. If we follow a graph of the rate of unemployment over a number of economic cycles, and we compare it with the rate of youth unemployment, we find that there is a very close correlation. What happened in 2007? Against the strong opposition of the National Party, Labour pushed ahead with a law to abolish youth rates, a law that requires employers to offer a 16 or 17-year-old exactly the same wage as an adult, with the minimum wage currently being $13 an hour. What was the one impact of that? It was to be absolutely expected. The rate of youth unemployment increased dramatically. It was not because of the recession. Yes, the recession contributed, but the very close relationship between adult unemployment and youth unemployment, at that stage, diverged. It diverged for one very simple reason: it was more expensive to employ a younger person than it was previously. If an employer was faced with the opportunity of employing a 16 or 17-year-old straight out of school on the adult rate of $13 an hour, or employing a person with more experience, a mature person aged 25, 35, or 40, at exactly the same rate, what would that employer do? Well, we all know the answer to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EMr David Carter, Minister of Agriculture, who acknowledged me earlier, is a farmer. He has employed people. I ask Mr Carter: if he had the choice of employing a 25 or 35-year-old on his farm at $13 an hour, or a 16 or 17-year-old straight out of school, whom would he employ? Well, if you speak to other employers, other famers, you will know absolutely the answer to that\u2014you will know absolutely the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7615f95e744d82b80031d74b530c42\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think, especially given your other life, talking about \u201Cyou\u201D employing people on \u201Cyour\u201D farm could be seen to be drawing you into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256fc48efafa244538e678f3e8e6fcc7b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The former Minister should know better than to debate \u201Cyou\u201D this, \u201Cyou\u201D that. It is not consistent with our Standing Orders. The member should refer to the member\u2019s farm or the Minister\u2019s farm, not \u201Cyou\u201D or \u201Cyour\u201D farm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc88ecba51246b28051f7b356fca06c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am very happy to refer to Mr Carter\u2019s farm. Mr Carter, like all other farmers, would know that when faced with the chance of employing a 16 or 17-year-old at the same rate as an older, more mature person, he would take the older, more mature person at any stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EToday we have heard two speakers from Labour express concern about youth unemployment. Well, they know the solution. There is a very simple solution. It is to reinstitute youth rates. It is interesting that Jacinda Ardern this afternoon talked about the $250 million of taxpayers\u2019 money that Labour would put into encouraging employers to take on an apprentice. What were Jacinda\u2019s comments? She said that 12 months was how long it took an employer to recover the cost of an apprentice. That is the cost; that is the incentive. We actually have to provide an employer with an incentive to take on an apprentice, and it is that exact same incentive that Labour took away when it abolished youth rates. The tragedy of this\u2014the absolute tragedy\u2014is that most people with common sense in this House know that. I believe that every National member knows that, because National spoke out strongly against the abolition of youth rates in 2007 when it was pushed through by Labour. National had an opportunity to do something about that. It had the opportunity to reverse that law change when Sir Roger Douglas had a member\u2019s bill before the House in 2009. What did National do? It voted down the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party will be taking a very active part in this election. We will be using the opportunity to go out and talk to New Zealanders about the things that need to be done to turn round this economy. We are talking about the waste of a young person sitting at home on the unemployment benefit, picking up $4.50 an hour while watching television. That is a waste of our young people, it is a waste of their potential, it is a tragedy, and every single person in this House knows that we can do something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00228756157435644749ae28c4f5f6dc0df3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228756157435644749ae28c4f5f6dc0df3\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have to give it to the ACT Party: if they come up with one idea and they go on and on about it, and their great idea to win them the election is to cut wages\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa1ce362094c40e2b003fdb57c79d72f\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Provide incentives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022681b7b46ff7e48c2885b005d03c334d6\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Cut wages. No, cut wages. That is exactly what Sir Roger Douglas and National did in the 1990s\u2014cut wages. Did that help to create jobs? Did it create skills? Did it develop our skills? What it did was lead to a low-wage, low-skill economy. So ACT\u2019s whole policy is based on a false premise. I strongly suggest to the member that he go back and look at the history of what happened when this country cut wages and whether that created jobs. Did it create jobs in the 1990s? Of course it did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am very proud of Labour\u2019s plan to have all young people earning or learning. I congratulate my colleagues who have been involved in putting it together. I know it has taken an awful lot of work. It has been very well received. It is a very positive plan. I know that National cannot live with the idea that some in business actually think Labour does some good things, but they do. Have a look at the press releases from Business New Zealand and others. What the plan also does is add to a cohesive economic package we are putting together. We have announced some of it so far: our monetary policy and our tax policy. This is the skills and jobs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022431330f29d6f4f7d8ceb07eb566b6905\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah; that\u2019s cohesive!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05860edef3a474a97fd79fba502d2c1\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that party has no cohesive policy, except to cut jobs and lose jobs and owning our future. We will have a comprehensive package to take to the electorate that will have all the elements in it to change the economy instead of relying on past, failed ideas, as National continues to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe skills crisis we are seeing at the moment, which the Labour plan responds to, was absolutely predictable\u2014absolutely predictable. All the problems that are there and everything we are facing right now are the fault of a National Government that failed to look ahead and see that we were going to have skills shortages. Things never stay the same. If we go back to the great ideas of this Government, we see the things it failed to do\u2014particularly for the young people of New Zealand, who are bearing the brunt of its failure. They are the ones who are paying the price. Let us think about those ideas. We had the Job Summit, and that was supposed to deliver jobs. We are still waiting for that. The other big idea from National to create jobs was the 90-day trial period. How many jobs has that created for young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44123de27024dc8b3472d4733b5a6a4\u0022\u003EHon Kate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: 13,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226363e46c141145739581049ba8d94cc5\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister of Labour says 15,000. She knows that that research she keeps citing is rubbish. It is absolute rubbish. Also, while I have the Minister\u2019s attention, I say that she is doing the dance of the seven veils on returning to youth wages. We all know that she really wants to bring them back. Mr Key is being a little bit edgy on that. Again, those are the only ideas they can think of. Of course we had boot camps. How many jobs have they created? What have they done to change things? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am really pleased about our policy. I am particularly pleased about the apprenticeship schemes. The previous speaker, John Boscawen, was talking about people sitting on the dole and how wasteful that is. We agree with that. That is why we will be subsidising employers to take on apprenticeships, to fund 9,000 additional apprenticeship places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5c0b09bbba4f2f81496fd7c6437a19\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Why are subsidies necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8146ad303724fd4bcda555431142ced\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Why is subsidisation necessary? That member should talk to builders and find out how difficult it is in this climate for them to take on an apprentice. They need assistance to do it. Why should they take all the risk? We are going to help them with that. We are going to help make sure that those young people have much-needed skills. Also we will support group apprenticeships. That is a very good scheme. There are some group apprenticeships that exist already. What happens in a group apprenticeship scheme is the group takes on the responsibility of employing the apprentice, so the employer does not have that responsibility. They do all of the pastoral care, they deal with all the risk and employment relations, and they can also share out those apprenticeships between different employers. In the process leading up to our announcement, I visited a number of apprentices, apprentice providers, and industry training organisations. What our policy has come from is from listening to what those people were saying. Going back to builders, it is really hard for them to take on an apprenticeship at the moment. That is why we are supporting a real boost to make sure they can do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9b526028c645d9b507c7ae55a6071e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9b526028c645d9b507c7ae55a6071e\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E There is one thing that clearly sets this side of the House apart from the other side, and that is the difference in leadership. We have a Prime Minister in John Key who is providing a steady hand in very uncertain times. That is why New Zealand as a country is positioned to be in better shape than many other countries around the world, despite the level of global uncertainty that we are facing. New Zealand has a strong plan for getting back into the black. Unfortunately, members on the other side continue with their mantra of \u201Ctax more, spend more, get more debt\u201D. It is interesting that when we talk to New Zealanders, they do not seem to have too much of an appetite for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI will talk about some of the things in the Taup\u014D electorate. I was recently at the business excellence awards, which 500 people attended. Actually, it was a sell-out. I made a few comments to the group of business people who were gathered there. I passed on the comment that the Leader of the Opposition had made that day that it is \u201Cgood fortune\u201D when people succeed in business\u2014\u201Cgood fortune\u201D. Actually, it is a hell of a lot more than good fortune. All of the people on this side of the House know exactly what it takes to do well in business. I talked to a roomful of people in Taup\u014D who are courageous, who are dedicated, and who are resilient. Let us face facts: we have had some tough times, but those people are the ones who are doing it out there on the street and making it happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIf we look at the people in business in the Taup\u014D electorate, we see there is a quiet air of confidence. I will give members some examples. In Cambridge, anytime that a retail space becomes available, it is snapped up just like that. Two new supermarkets have been built in New Zealand so far this year, both of them in Tokoroa. There are three new dairy factories. Two have been consented for and one has just been completed, in M\u014Dkai. That is a fantastic sign in terms of growing our exports in New Zealand, and that is what this side of the House is focused on. We are focused on growing our exports, because we know that that leads to jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWith regard to energy, just last week I was with Minister Hekia Parata at Contact Energy. Some significant investment projects are under way. One is the Tauhara project, which was consented to in record time because of the changes we made with the introduction of the Environmental Protection Authority. At Te Mihi, $623 million is being invested. These are great news stories in Taup\u014D, and they really demonstrate the fact that there is confidence out there, there is confidence in this Government, and there is confidence in what we are doing for the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EA recent campaign undertaken by a local business organisation in Taup\u014D was a \u201Cgrab it\u201D campaign. It was focused on what is generally a challenging time in the winter months, over the period of July and August. It was really interesting to see exactly what businesses can do when they pull together. I have recently found out that in August, both retail spending and the number of transactions were significantly up\u2014in fact, they were higher than the average across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThere is confidence out there. We are getting results. People have the confidence to take on staff, and that is exactly what we want to see. And that is before the Rugby World Cup hits town. Taup\u014D is hosting three teams: Wales, Ireland, and South Africa. I must admit that, having seen the excitement of the Tongan supporters in Auckland on Monday, I did have a little wish that perhaps the Tongan team would be in our town, but never mind. This event will be a significant boost for the local economy. Not only that, but what businesses have been doing is putting in place things that will actually create more business in the long term with the initiative by New Zealand Trade and Enterprise and the New Zealand 2011 Business Club. There is the Sika Show, which focuses on deer hunting; the inaugural Clean Energy Centre expo, with a whole raft of international guests; and the New Zealand Junior Rugby Festival, which in its own right is expecting 5,000 visitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI report from the people of Taup\u014D that Taup\u014D is in good heart, but it is not because of good fortune. It is because of courage, determination, and the ability to work hard. More important, it is because of the confidence in a John Key - led Government that we have the foundations in place for a strong economy that creates wealth and jobs and builds a brighter future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00220854a4ed3e8e4c919bee439ec8daa95c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220854a4ed3e8e4c919bee439ec8daa95c\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Nicky Hager\u2019s Other People\u2019s Wars should prompt us to assess the so-called war on terror, which will be 10 years old this Sunday. The September 11 attack on the Word Trade Center caused such destruction and loss of life that it spooked the world community. The Bush administration seized the opportunity to increase State powers at the expense of civil liberties and to engage in foreign military adventures. Unfortunately, it pulled other Western countries, including New Zealand, in its wake. New Zealand SAS troops were sent to Afghanistan, the Terrorism Suppression Act was passed, and the police, the SIS, and the Defence Force were instructed to develop a much greater anti-terrorism capability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMost New Zealanders have doubts about America\u2019s wars and now they would rather our SAS was not involved in Afghanistan. Nicky Hager\u2019s book reinforces this particular view. It is a war where our SAS and our intelligence operatives embedded with the Americans have been providing targets for missile attacks, often by drone planes, which commonly kill civilians. Prisoners captured by our SAS have been handed over to possible mistreatment in US or Afghan detention centres. Nicky Hager also questions how separate our provincial reconstruction team in Bamian Province is from the larger war, despite the Defence Force saying when the team was sent that its \u201CPersonnel are not going to war.\u201D, and that \u201CThe focus of this mission is reconstruction.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EYesterday defence Minister, Wayne Mapp, did not deny that there were US operatives in Bamian collecting intelligence, including, it seems, signals intelligence for the wider war. The New Zealand public relations people do not tell the whole story. For example, we are told that our provincial reconstruction team has handed over some responsibilities to the local police, which is good, but it seems that surplus New Zealand soldiers have been assigned to the north-east corner of Bamian Province, away from the peaceful, Hazara-populated zone, where they are more likely to be engaged in the wider war. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Hager book details that New Zealand helped American and British occupation forces in Iraq with our frigate Te Kaha by escorting American troop ships through the Strait of Hormuz. Also, Kiwi army engineers based in Basra from 2003 helped by repairing British combat riverboats and helping the British occupation force to build roadblocks to control what were described as Iraqi rioters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDomestically, our police and SIS have been on a mission to justify their extra anti-terrorist staffing and find some actual terrorists. This has led to unwarranted suspicion being placed on refugees and migrants, most notably in the Ahmed Zaoui case, where a democratic opponent of the Algerian regime was imprisoned in New Zealand because of pressure from other Western Governments that tended to support the Algerian dictatorship. Even local political activists have been labelled terrorists, as in the so-called T\u016Bhoe raids of 2007. Thankfully, with the dropping of most of the charges yesterday, this case is collapsing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOf course, the one group the SIS did not want to spy on, because these people are supposedly Western allies, was Israel\u2019s Mossad agents. They happen to be the only group engaged in terrorism-related crime in New Zealand in the last decade. Mossad agents obtained fraudulent New Zealand passports to use in terror acts in other countries of the sort they have carried out in Jordan and last year in Dubai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo what can be done at the end of the war-on-terror decade to rectify this situation? The Greens offer the following suggestions, all of which will achieve the Government-stated objective of reducing State expenditure. Firstly, we should move quickly to withdraw our SAS unit from Afghanistan. Secondly, we should sell off our two frigates, which, unlike the multi-role vessels and the patrol boats, are only useful for helping in America\u2019s wars. Thirdly, we should significantly reduce the budget of the SIS in light of the realisation that it is not practical to have so much resource devoted to finding terrorists in New Zealand when we have not discovered a single terrorist in the past decade. Finally, we should listen to the New Zealand people more. They do not want our foreign policy and our defence policy to simply be a carbon copy of the United States\u2019 policy. They are tiring of this war on terror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022 data-id=\u00227c69790aa98e44beaaff1ce60fc28aa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c69790aa98e44beaaff1ce60fc28aa6\u0022\u003EKANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my privilege to participate in today\u2019s general debate as a member of the National Party. I would also like to share the experience I have had while being out and about among the Indian and ethnic communities during the past few months. It was my honour to accompany our Prime Minister, the Rt Hon John Key, on his State visit to India. National is very focused on improving New Zealand\u2019s relationship with India, which is the fastest-growing economy in the world. It is very important for New Zealand to look for new markets for the products produced in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EThe economy is recovering. The National-led Government is taking New Zealand forward by reducing our debts, getting back to surplus within 3 years, and building a faster-growing economy. We are getting on top of Government debt by keeping it below 30 percent of GDP, and we are on track to surplus by 2014-15. Over the next few years we have an opportunity to build a solid foundation for a faster-growing economy and more jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EIt is the week of our largest sporting event. The Rugby World Cup 2011 is an unprecedented opportunity for New Zealand. It will be the biggest event ever held in this country, and we plan to make the most of it. The tournament will be watched by millions of viewers around the globe. We will be showcasing New Zealand to the world. I have seen enthusiasm over the past few weeks within the communities in South Auckland. Shops in Manukau have flag bunting up, people are adopting their second teams, and a great atmosphere of excitement is building. I have no doubt that the All Blacks will win, and I am looking forward to watching the games. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003ENational has added additional funds for education, health, transport, and law and order, all of which are very important areas for ethnic communities and Indians. National has made South Auckland a safe community. Crime has reduced, family violence has decreased, and the streets are safer. That is reflected in the latest crime statistics of all recorded crimes in the Auckland district last year. The highest percentage of 43 percent was recorded for theft and related offences, followed by unlawful entry, burglary, and breaking and entering, at 17 percent. Recorded crimes in Auckland per head of population are the lowest they have been for the last 15 years. We have introduced tough laws and new legislation, boosted police numbers, and given them new tools to deal with crime. It is good to see in my electorate that this is making a difference. Taxi drivers in the taxi industry are very happy with the instalment of the new cameras in their taxis. They now feel safer, and there is a huge sense of relief and satisfaction that the killer of Hiren Mohini, the taxi driver who died last year, has been brought to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EAucklanders can look forward to faster and more reliable electric trains, thanks to National\u2019s $1.6 billion investment upgrade in extending and electrifying Auckland\u2019s rail network. National\u2019s investment in Auckland rail will give the region more independence and flexibility in how it runs its services. Motorists will not have to pay an additional regional fuel tax of 10c per litre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226dc89bbf-c2ef-45c9-89e4-d2b5952d8d16\u0022\u003EAs a person of Asian ethnicity, it is a common practice, and expected, that we save for our old age and for generations to come. This is a value that is instilled in us from birth. The proposal of mixed ownership is very attractive to the ethnic community. Small investors such as mum and dad investors will be able to invest in New Zealand companies. There is strong Kiwi demand for shares in State-owned enterprises. New Zealanders are expected to own at least 85 to 90 percent of five companies under National\u2019s mixed-ownership policy, including the Government\u2019s majority shareholding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00227c02f3d684c04130985b2f67a79998cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c02f3d684c04130985b2f67a79998cf\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to return to the issue of our young people, because, as is often said, young people are our future. New Zealand has the worst youth unemployment record in the OECD\u2014that is right: the worst in the OECD. That is a disgrace. There are 58,000 15 to 24-year-olds who are not in work, not in training, and not in school, and 24,000 of those are under the age of 20. These are our children and our grandchildren; these are the people whom we will expect to take their part in our economy, and we are throwing them on the scrap heap. The Government\u2019s response to date has been nothing short of lazy and piecemeal. This is the issue that should be at the forefront of all of our attention. It should not be about spin, and it should not be about gimmicks, but that is precisely what this Government\u2019s response to youth unemployment has been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIn contrast, Labour has a coherent plan. We have a coherent economic plan, unlike the Government, which does not have a plan. Our plan will focus on productivity and lifting investment in our productive economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c14209f2624e8986ee3c955665e04d\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Tax more, spend more, borrow more\u2014great plan!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b46dca685aa41c18036b0e0390245d9\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT\u003C/span\u003E: It will use things like a tax reform package to give the right signals\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291f9939f63142e8a1fe54f832f0c84c\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: There you go\u2014what I just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022094eefc0884b4efb873bd6bc886c814c\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it is not about taxing more. That is just another example of Government spin\u2014of National spin. It is about reforming our tax policy. We will be investing in research and development, we will be dealing with a volatile New Zealand dollar, and as part of that economic plan we will be looking at significant investment in the area of skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOther members have spoken about our youth skills and employment package, and I want to talk about one particular aspect. But can I add the fact that I am also very proud of this package. This is a package that will really make a difference, and that really resonates in our communities. I have to say that Melville must have changed a lot since I went to school there and lived there. I find it hard to believe that the people of Melville would be happy about 58,000 young people being on the scrap heap. I do not know whom Mr Macindoe was talking to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EAnyway, Modern Apprenticeships have declined by 10 percent in the past 2 years under this Government. Labour has come up with a plan that would see employers receiving a subsidy of $8,700, and that would be for an additional 9,000 apprenticeship places\u2014that is right: 9,000 more apprenticeship places. That has been welcomed across the board by business groups, by unions, and by the building and construction industry in particular, which is suffering from major skills shortages, and is facing a rebuild in Christchurch with no people to do it. It has been welcomed across the board, because this is a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWe do have to spend money in this area, but it is an investment; it is an investment in our future and it is an investment in our young people. Every parent and grandparent, and every decent-thinking New Zealander, wants that sort of investment in something like an apprenticeship, which provides a really effective form of learning. It has stood the test of time. It is a process whereby those who have skills impart those skills to our young people in a workplace context. It is about giving young people a future. I have spoken to principals who have talked about the difference that getting a young person, who is at risk of disengaging from school, on an apprenticeship makes to their whole life course. It gives them a whole range of opportunities, it gives them hope, and it gives them pride, because they are doing something they can see and something that makes a difference in our economy, because we do have massive skill gaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EA person who does an apprenticeship has a range of opportunities. They can continue doing that work as an employee. They can establish their own business in that area. They can go overseas with a recognisable qualification that will be well rewarded. They can build a good future for themselves and their families. More apprenticeships are important to plug the very real skill gaps that we have in our country. We have lost so many skilled New Zealanders to Australia. Even the Prime Minister of Australia sees us as part of their skills strategy. We have a problem, and the Government is failing to address that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOf course, the apprenticeship model has the other great feature, which is that the young person is earning and learning at the same time. I can tell members that on the streets of Maungakiekie, when I have been talking about this package, people believe that this is a good idea, an idea whose time has come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef545d677b34e618682f49975deddc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef545d677b34e618682f49975deddc7\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS (National\u2014Botany):\u003C/span\u003E I commented to a few people earlier today that I expected there to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Opposition during the debate on the voluntary student membership bill, but little did I know that this would start an hour earlier, during the general debate. The reality out there in the community just does not align with the Labour Party\u2019s view of the world. The people in the community know that, and they will make their decision in November this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI want to talk about something very positive for New Zealand, very positive for the country, which is starting in just 2 days\u2019 time. It is something we should all be proud of as New Zealanders. It is something that I know everyone has been looking forward to for a long time, and it all starts on Friday with the Rugby World Cup. It is a big opportunity for New Zealand. It is a very good thing that we are having this tournament\u2014the third-biggest tournament in the world\u2014coming to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that there is a quarter of a billion dollars in economic benefits, just for Auckland alone\u2014the city I am from\u2014and $700 million of economic benefit for the nation as a whole. It is a time for pride in our country, it is a time to stand up as New Zealanders and support the mighty All Blacks. It is a time to showcase to the world everything that is good about New Zealand, everything that we as a country achieve, and everything that we want to sell to the world\u2014the image of New Zealand as a great place to live and a great place to do business. We will see 95,000 visitors coming to New Zealand, many of those in just the first week alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe will be showcasing to the world everything that is good about New Zealand through the REAL New Zealand Showcase event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThose of you who have been down to the Cloud on the waterfront will have seen that it is a brilliant entertainment facility for New Zealanders. It is a place where we will be hosting the REAL New Zealand Showcase. It will present the best of New Zealand business and industry to the world through a nationwide programme of events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cbab0c331944e979165168a29fcd1f4\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker doesn\u2019t hop from cloud to cloud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0758d7b02574116ab0c3395a0bf0762\u0022\u003EJAMI-LEE ROSS\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting some heckling from the Opposition. Let me remind the House that the Cloud on the waterfront is something Trevor Mallard could never achieve. It took Murray McCully to come along to get something on the waterfront. Trevor could not achieve it. Do members remember the stadium that Trevor could not achieve? It took Murray McCully to come along and bring the Cloud to Auckland. Thank goodness he has done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe REAL New Zealand Showcase that is down there at the Cloud will be supported by events around the country. It will showcase to the world the industries we have and the people we have working out in the community who are building their businesses. They want to sell the industry and sell everything that they have available to the world so that they can help to further build this economy. There will be 18 export industry sectors at the REAL New Zealand Showcase, staging 230 events across New Zealand. I am proud to be a member of the party that has helped to bring this to the country through the REAL New Zealand Showcase. It is all about building the economy, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003ELet me remind the House what the National-led Government is doing about the economy. We will bring us back to surplus by 2014-15. We are investing over $30 billion in assets over the next 5 years. We are spending $5.5 billion on recovery in Canterbury. We have had across-the-board tax cuts. We are reducing regulation and red tape. We have got more money for health, more money for education, and more money for law and order. I know that New Zealanders out there are proud to see what this National-led Government has been doing across the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EWe heard a bit about what the Opposition members have been talking about with regard to youth unemployment. Let me remind the House of two things that Labour wants to do that would hurt young people in the country. The 90-day trial period has been great for young people. It has given young people a chance to get into employment. Labour would kill it off. Labour wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. We would see 6,000 young people out there who would be on the unemployment heap just by virtue of that policy. We are hearing simple-mindedness from members across the House that would do New Zealand a lot of harm. Thank goodness\u2014thank goodness\u2014we will continue to have a John Key - led Government, should we be so fortunate to be re-elected in November this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022163d0b68-eb0e-4094-9bed-99e184f063e1\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b21588835e44c5e9cacc824a4c5f20d\u0022\u003ERoyal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225b3abc191c7491eb96ecc209d7eb26d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000292\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 3 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c43f2cc5a4e145fc8d47f1366051604b\u0022\u003EClause 14  Elected Councillors (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000294\u0022\u003EClause 14 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e617de95110f437eae9930da5c6087ee\u0022\u003EClause 15 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022561952748c904d8c95f4cecbe2f3987e\u0022\u003EClause 16  Co-opted Councillors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfe3d2e40cc44c9a95b4784c83137814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfe3d2e40cc44c9a95b4784c83137814\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df8892ef672244ad8c9b7e88510e426c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000298\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000299\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a5e56bbb5347f8931e9affdb80fa40\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the report\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022188c27c1d76541fb952450a90373799b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: This is relatively unusual, but I seek leave for this bill to be set down for further consideration after the voluntary student membership bill. I indicate to the House that it is not the intention of Labour to further debate the bill but to move it on so that it can be passed before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022980598532f864e45bef663d50d1297c5\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will first put the question about the adopting of the report, and then I will accept the member\u2019s seeking of leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab04989440747cc89e3bff43d862532\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb1baab356b4dd1ab99ae2265b11d25\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill to be set down for further consideration in the Committee following the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, with the indication that the Labour Party does not propose to debate it but wishes it to pass its Committee stage so it can have its third reading and be passed into law before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00225c92cb3e4f3e411486c87424b082640f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c92cb3e4f3e411486c87424b082640f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The process here is that I have to put down first that the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill be set for consideration on the next sitting day. That is first process, then I can accept the seeking of leave. What we have done is adopt the report; that motion has been put. The next stage means that it cannot be debated today, so I am putting it down for further consideration on the next sitting day, as Standing Order 177(1) states. The member is seeking leave to depart from that. I am prepared to put that question to the House, but first of all I have to say that the bill is set down for further consideration on the next sitting day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002227709bb9d9d84e8cbda3826ca91c6573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227709bb9d9d84e8cbda3826ca91c6573\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek the leave of the House for the further Committee stage of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill to be set down to be taken subsequent to the debate on the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill today, with no debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc167abaf57a4370923312f8fadebf32\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are we all clear? Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fa834df5a63419ba38c43488d37d6ec\u0022\u003EEducation (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf70199ecbfc4e72b768c7aea81d3da3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000311\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 3 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e7190fa7b1e4ff0bf96cf65749288eb\u0022\u003EClause 9  Transitional Provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e81161440a2749a1aa4381058a138102\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e81161440a2749a1aa4381058a138102\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a brief call on clause 9 of this bill. It is the last clause to be debated in the Committee stage before the bill is up for its third reading, presumably on the next sitting day. Clause 9 is a transitional provision. In the view of the Opposition, it raises questions around the date that this legislation will come into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhen we first debated the commencement clause of this bill some months ago, it was quite conceivable, had it been passed at that time, that the bill could be implemented without causing any difficulty to the institutions involved. We are now into September. Many of the institutions will have set their tuition fees for the coming year and will have begun to enrol students. Many more students will be covered by this transition clause than would have been had this bill passed earlier in the year. Many, many more students will be in programmes that will be ongoing past the commencement date of this bill than would have been had it been passed when we debated the commencement clause. Therefore, it is actually quite legitimate, I think, to ask whether the commencement of this bill should be delayed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs I said, many of the institutions will already have set their tuition fees and begun enrolling students for next year, and we think it would therefore be reasonable to delay commencement of this bill overall until the beginning of January 2013. It is a logistical nightmare for some of the institutions to try to change their procedures at this late stage in the proceedings. I accept, of course, that the bill has taken as long as this to get to this stage because we, the Opposition, have over the last few months been fully arguing this bill and other bills that have come before it on the Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt looks like this bill will pass before the election. Therefore, I think it is legitimate to ask whether this transition clause should be expanded, or whether the Committee could potentially go back and reconsider the commencement date for the bill. This transition clause will probably be insufficient to meet the challenges that are posed by the passage of this bill at this late stage in the year, when students have already begun enrolling for their studies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAlso, of course, there is the question of how long it will take the institutions to put alternative systems in place. They will have to put systems in place for student representation on their governing bodies, for example, which is currently covered under the law by the students associations. Universities, polytechnics, and institutes of technology will need to put alternative systems in place for those matters from next year. And, of course, they are coming up to exam time and a time when many students will not be in the institutions. Is it therefore feasible for them to put those things in place in time for a commencement date of 1 January 2012? I argue quite strongly that it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETherefore, the transitional provisions currently provided in the bill are insufficient if this bill is to be passed, and it will be, judging by the number of votes that have gone through so far. Despite National promising before the election not to vote for the bill, National has, in fact, been voting for it all the way through. This makes it more likely that this bill will pass into law before the election, despite National not having sought a mandate for it. National claims that it seeks a mandate when it changes its policies. Well, it changed its policy on this matter, but it does not seem to think it needs to go back to the electorate for a mandate on this particular legislation, unlike some of the other things that it claims to be seeking a mandate for. That is another example of National implementing policies without seeking a mandate, despite claiming that it intends to do so. Therefore, I think it is quite reasonable for us to go back and consider whether this transition clause should be expanded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt simply will not be feasible to implement this legislation prior to 1 January next year. It will be a nightmare for the institutions to implement. It will be difficult even for the students associations to establish alternative systems for signing up students as members and making sure that many of the valuable services that they currently provide are catered for in a voluntary membership environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI ask the Committee to reconsider whether this transitional clause is sufficient and whether we should go back and reconsider the commencement clause and extend the date for the commencement of this bill by a further year. We first considered the commencement clause, as I said, some months ago\u2014some months ago. A lot has changed in that period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f56c5d67c08a410fb52ccbaa4765e0f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f56c5d67c08a410fb52ccbaa4765e0f3\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just to pick up where Mr Hipkins left off, I say that it is quite clear to me that the transitional provision in the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill is not adequate. It is not adequate, for two main reasons. One of them is the one Mr Hipkins has raised\u2014that is, that we are now here in this Chamber in September looking at passing this bill. I acknowledge that this side of the Committee has strongly opposed this bill, and we stand by that opposition. But if members on the other side of the Committee are true to their word that their goal here is not to destroy students associations, then they will accept a change to these transitional provisions that would allow for a longer period before this law came into force. The truth is that students associations, and certainly those in the university environment, will now need to negotiate with institutions in relation to which services will be provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EInstitutions themselves are concerned about this. Members should bear in mind that all bar one of the polytechnics, all of the universities, and all bar one of the w\u0101nanga came to the Education and Science Committee and said: \u201CPlease don\u2019t pass this legislation.\u201D This legislation is actually opposed by the institutions because they know about the value of the work that students associations do. Institutions are now being placed in a position of having to negotiate\u2014or not\u2014with the students associations about the services that will be provided. We know from around the country that institutions are struggling with this. Students associations are not able to engage with them in the way they would like, we are heading towards the exam period, and it is getting towards the end of the year. The transitional provisions need to be updated to take into account where we are in the year and how long it has taken to complete this debate. As I say, members on this side of the Committee fully accept that we have been part of trying to vigorously oppose this legislation. But if the members on the other side of the Committee are true to what they said to submitters in the select committee in the public sessions, and if they are true to what they have previously said about students associations, they will change the date this bill comes into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, they are sitting there in silence, having listened to the submissions in the committee. At the end of that process the National members knew that this bill was wrong. It was unworkable, it would undermine the services that students got, it would undermine the advocacy that students got, and it would undermine the educational experience of students. They all knew that\u2014the National members of the committee\u2014and there were possibilities for compromise. It seems it is now too late for some of those compromises to be put back on the table, but one thing members on the other side of the Committee can do is think about when this bill comes into force, and about the students who will be coming in on 1 January 2012 who are not already enrolled and covered under this transition provision. They can think about those students, they can think about the institutions that are trying to organise which services are going to be provided, and they can create a transitional provision that actually acknowledges the reality of where we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIf members on the other side of the Committee do not do that, then it calls into question everything they have said about their belief that students associations do valuable things and provide important services. It undermines that, and it aligns those members with the ACT Party\u2019s ideological opposition to students associations. That is what has driven this\u2014the views of a small number of students who could not even get the 10 percent of students required to run a referendum. The ideological views of the ACT Party tail are wagging the National dog again. Members on the other side of the Committee have the ability to ensure that this bill does not come into force on 1 January 2012, and that there is a proper transitional provision put in place that will actually facilitate a smoother transition to what we on this side of the Committee continue to believe is wrong. We continue to believe it is the wrong thing to do for students and for tertiary institutions. But if members on the other side of the Committee are so determined to push this bill though, then at the very least they should put in place a transitional provision that actually gives some time to those institutions and to those students to adjust to a new reality. The truth is that if the bill is rammed through in the form it is now, it will cause significant upheaval, services will be lost, 75 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b933197311b4080aeb1480cbb02cc14\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You should have thought about that a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a1a4c38c1ea49718102f105a3ba3176\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We oppose the bill, I say to Mr Henare, because it is the wrong thing to do. It is the wrong thing to do. Mr Henare knew that. He knew that in the late 1990s when he negotiated the compromise that has been undone today. This is what is being done today\u2014we are undoing Tau Henare\u2019s legislation of the late 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00226303468e7d894058aba1750ddf0488ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226303468e7d894058aba1750ddf0488ba\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to follow on from what Grant Robertson was arguing, and it is about something that students associations have mentioned to me in a number of meetings I have had with them over the last few weeks. They are concerned about the transitional arrangements that are to take place as a result of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill coming into force. Unfortunately, it looks as though it will, even though we have tried the best we can to argue against it and debate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe have met with both National and Heather Roy herself to look at a compromise alternative that might have actually been able to get through. That alternative could have enabled this legislation to get through with an opt-out clause\u2014an opt-out clause that would mean that students who were signed up to a students association would, in the first month of signing up, be able to get out of it, pretty much as we currently do with KiwiSaver. We believe\u2014and the students associations do as well, because they announced this in a press release a few weeks ago\u2014that in fact this opt-out clause would enable us to do two things. Those with a pathological dislike of students associations who do not want to be part of one could get out of it, yet the legislation would not undermine and gut students associations, which we know has happened in every other jurisdiction where legislation has done the same thing as is proposed here to students associations. In those places that legislation has meant that the students associations are undermined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, that compromise and those discussions collapsed when ACT realised that it could possibly get the bill through the House before the end of the year. I think that is a real shame, because what we would have had was legislation that had some durability. It could have continued on without becoming a legislative ping-pong game between different Governments, as they come and go out of power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I do think there are some real issues around the transitional arrangements mentioned in clause 9. There is one thing I would not mind some elucidation on. Now, as we all know, many students join an organisation or an institution halfway through the year; with the semester system people do not always join at the beginning of the year. If people join halfway through the year under the current regime and suddenly on 1 January they shift to a different regime, according to this legislation\u2014as I understand it, anyway\u2014those people would stay part of the students association, having paid their full entitlement for the course of a year. This is the question: should they be eligible for a pro rata refund should they decide to opt out of that students association because they do not want to be part of it? That is a legitimate question. I am not sure whether that is completely covered in the transitional arrangements, but it is one of the questions that will arise, I think, should this legislation come into force on 1 January 2012. Clause 9 alludes to a number of transitional arrangements, but, perhaps, does not fully cover them as a result of the way that the legislation is written at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe second point regarding clause 9 that I want to raise is about the implications of the Education Amendment Bill (No 4), which passed into law a few weeks ago. As we know, as part of that legislation our students associations will have to sit down with universities to look at any increase in levies. I submit that if this bill goes through and it goes through on 1 January 2012, a number of students associations will basically fall over, and some of the services that some of them are currently providing will not be able to continue to exist, simply because the finances for those services\u2014be they counselling or medical or sporting or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f191afab48b941d89b6861048c177bfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f191afab48b941d89b6861048c177bfb\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party would strongly support the proposal by Labour to amend the transitional provision. We agree wholeheartedly that it is absurd to have this Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill come into effect on 1 January next year, and that a much longer transitional period will be needed if there is to be a smooth transition once this rather unfortunate bill passes in this Parliament. As previous speakers have said, there is no question that some of the services will fall over. The universities are very worried about trying to negotiate and take over some of the services from the students associations. There is a huge amount of work to be done and it is completely unrealistic to expect it to be done by 1 January next year. Therefore, we need to change the transitional provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne of the Labour speakers said that if the intention of this bill was not to destroy students associations, then the Government would readily agree to amend the transitional provision. Unfortunately, I am afraid that that is the ambition not just of the ACT Party but, indeed, of the Government, and that is what this bill is about\u2014destroying students associations in New Zealand. As we said in our Green Party minority review, undermining the membership and financial viability of students associations will reduce student democracy, reduce student participation, and reduce students\u2019 voices on university and polytechnic boards. Let us be absolutely clear that that is what this bill is about. It is about trying to destroy student democracy, student participation, and the student voice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELike many people in this House, I was on a student executive\u2014the Victoria University student executive\u2014and that was a very radicalising, positive political experience for me. That radicalised me. I participated fresh from a private school for young ladies. I found myself on a student executive, and it radicalised me. I was involved in student protests, student marches on Parliament, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThat is what the Government does not want to happen. The Government does not want students to be radicalised or to be involved in student politics. It does not want students to have a strong voice. Indeed, once the Government has destroyed the student unions and the student voice, it knows that its next proposals are to undermine universities and university funding. The Government anticipates it will not have opposition if, for example, it were to do things like change the student loan scheme, because by the passage of this bill it will have undermined students associations, it will have undermined the student voice, and it will have undermined student radicalism. That is what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELet us not have any pretence that there is any other purpose to this bill. Let us not pretend it is about freedom of association or some vague ACT principles. That is what the bill is about\u2014trying to destroy student democracy, student participation, and the student voice. But unfortunately, in setting out to destroy those things, it will also destroy some extraordinarily valuable university student services. Many of them will fall over. They will be a further burden on the universities, which will have to pick up these services, particularly if we do not amend this transitional provision clause, and this is all supposed to happen somehow in a couple of months\u2019 time, by 1 January. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI cannot understand\u2014well, I suppose I can, really\u2014why National would be so intent on destroying student democracy, student participation, and the student voice. Perhaps it feels that students might be the ones who oppose the market economy or oppose some of the Government\u2019s policies, such as selling off our State assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022440e30e57f76423d89f7fe6032641318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022440e30e57f76423d89f7fe6032641318\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on clause 9 of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill. As my colleagues have pointed out, we are discussing the transitional provisions. I think a really important point has been made in terms of the suggestions that we have put forward to the member in the chair, Heather Roy, on the transitional provisions\u2014that this is an opportunity to prove that this is not an ideological issue and that if some of the amendments we have put forward were adopted, that might go some way to alleviating that concern. I give that a heavy caveat, because ultimately I would still probably believe this is purely ideological. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere are two quick points that I want to make. Clause 9(2)(a) states: \u201Ca student to whom this section applies continues to be a member of the students association until the expiry of his or her current term of enrolment;\u201D. Obviously the impact of that will be that we will have, potentially, a gradual depletion in students association numbers, and that will impact on the ability to keep students association services up to the level that would be provided if we had full membership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EProbably the best example I can give of that is to ask what would happen in New Zealand if only a quarter of the country was contributing to the services that require universal provision\u2014if only a quarter of the country was contributing to roading, to schools, and to health services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EHealth services are actually a direct parallel. If we suddenly have the phasing out of students contributing to those services\u2014if economies of scale require that we have no less than one nurse or one doctor available\u2014we can almost guarantee that despite those students still being enrolled in the students associations and requiring those services, and expecting those services, the depletion of resources going into those areas will gradually mean that they will not be able to be provided to the same level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe transitional provisions, I think, will ultimately lead to the gradual decline of those services, as will this entire bill. This bill is denying only to a certain degree the ultimate inevitability of the depletion of services and advocacy for students on campus. However, as we have already pointed out, that is ultimately the purpose of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI turn to some of the amendments proposed by my colleague Grant Robertson, because I think they require a response from the member in the chair. I reflect that if we are treating this as a true democracy, then the most important part of a true democracy is the ability to communicate with those who have an interest in the details of student union membership. If it is impossible to communicate with the individuals in question, then that is an erosion of that democratic principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think it is absolutely pertinent that Grant Robertson has put forward an amendment that suggests we add to clause 9 a subclause (3), which states: \u201CThe institution\u201D\u2014obviously the tertiary provider, as it were\u2014\u201Cis to provide its student association with the following details of students for whom any membership fee of the kind prescribed in section 229CA(1) is currently collected from: (a) The student\u2019s full name; and (b) The student\u2019s contact address; and (c) The student\u2019s contact phone number; and (d) The students email address.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EJust like in elections, whereby we are able to make contact with individual constituents via an electoral roll for the purposes of communicating in a general election, I think it makes absolute sense that students associations are able to communicate with potential members about the services they can provide via membership. If this were truly about giving students choice, then surely a fundamental principle of that is providing the information in order to make said choice. I cannot see how anyone would have a problem with such a common-sense clause. Second, and equally as important, is the ability to provide information about the services themselves. Having the contact details of the person one is communicating with is one thing, but the ability to provide adequate information is another, which is why Grant Robertson, very wisely, has put forward another amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e3dfa7e3234c9c9ff5da485728e602\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Name-dropper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e02b7f031434175873d7940d420e08c\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I am a terrible name-dropper, I say to Grant Robertson. I am yet to mention other learned colleagues in the House. I see that Paul Quinn is here, as is Simon Bridges, and I am sure they will make contributions on this bill as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u2019s next amendment to clause 9 inserts subclauses (3) and (4). Subclause (4) states: \u201CThe type of information referred to in subsection (3) includes: (a) the services the association provides members; (b) the services the association provides non-members; (c) the fees and levies which apply to joining an association; (d) the process of electing representatives of the association.\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo not only does it set out the type of information, which, of course, is incredibly important. If students are to be contributing a fee or levy, they deserve to know what they will receive for that fee or levy, in the same way that someone who is putting himself or herself forward for election is able to provide for their constituents information about what they are able to provide as an elected representative. There are similarities there, which are just basic principles of democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think it is important also to point out that in the fourth area he has also added the process of electing representatives of the association, thereby indicating that from the outset those who are opting in to an association\u2014because it is exactly what this entire bill will prompt\u2014will have the ability to see from the very outset the process they can expect for electing representatives of the association. It is a good common-sense clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EPrior to subclause (4), though, he has also added subclause (3), which states: \u201CDespite sections 229A to 229CA, information must be provided by the institution to both prospective and current students about any student association at the institution for the purpose of informing the student about joining the association.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIf the member in the chair is unwilling for us to explicitly set this out in the legislation, what information can we expect students to receive? Essentially, without this subclause we could expect them to receive nothing: absolutely no information about those services, their rights, their access to them as advocates, and the process that is undertaken for electing representatives. That is just not good enough. So I ask the member in the chair to demonstrate to us that in her mind this bill is genuinely about democracy. I have already given the caveat that I am unlikely to believe that in any case, but I ask her to demonstrate to us that, by adopting these simple common-sense provisions about information and the right of access to information, this is about choice for students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EUnder those criteria, these provisions should be adopted. If they are not adopted, I think this Committee deserves an explanation. I do think, though, that in broader terms the use of the term \u201Cdemocracy\u201D has been bandied around and misused by members on the other side of the Chamber in regard to these provisions in the bill generally. As the member who spoke before me said, if this bill really was about democracy, there were already provisions that allowed students to trigger a referendum if that is what they wanted. That has not happened, which is why, in debating clause 9, I ask that the member in the chair directly address why it is that at the eleventh hour you are unwilling to add a provision that would enhance what you claim to be the ultimate principle of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022296a9a1004a14ea0a44df3406a946262\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d58956bb754335a904e86801c108f5\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Not you, Mr Chairperson. There are double Roys in the Chair today, which means that probably I am OK. I look forward to the female Roy\u2014Heather Roy\u2014responding to that challenge. I think that Grant Robertson has crafted these provisions with care. I think he has put some thought into how we can improve these last transitional provisions of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt looks as if Heather Roy\u2014the female Roy\u2014is about to get to her feet, I hope, and tell me whether she is likely to adopt those provisions. I did see the whip come over, so perhaps that means that she is corresponding with him about how she can introduce those provisions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002204ca06b68ab242de93e792dd1905fb85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204ca06b68ab242de93e792dd1905fb85\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a moment to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised this afternoon, and I hope that the member who has just sat down, Jacinda Ardern, is happy with the Roy who is on her feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI will start with the comments that have been made about democracy. The Green member Sue Kedgley said that the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill is an attack on democracy, and, in fact, some Labour members also made that accusation. This could be an attack on democracy only if students were prevented from joining a students association. If members choose to read the bill carefully they will see that it is about voluntary membership, which is a right that all students should have in a free and fair society. Nobody should be forced or compelled to pay a fee to join an association. Students should not be forced to join an association in order to be able to study, which is the situation we have at the moment. In fact, this bill just goes back to the original intent of students associations when they were first formed, to be voluntary organisations\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e6b9725d9914e96aa8b0d3883f5a334\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241fc4acbc364426f96fc9785c3cfae1d\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell Mr Robertson that they were not compulsory when they started, and this bill takes them back to the original intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere was some commentary from the member Jacinda Ardern about communication with members. In fact, of late we have seen appalling communication from students associations with their membership. Incorporated societies decide for themselves what information is given. So the clauses that Jacinda Ardern was promoting in the name of the member Grant Robertson are not necessary, because incorporated societies will decide for themselves what information is communicated with members and how democratic elections will be run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESome comments have also been made about the transitional provisions in clause 9. If a concern is that the transition time is now too short, Labour members need only look at their own behaviour over the past 8 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c03b7857324252ba84301dfbb5f690\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a silly thing to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffcdde20afb4e5bb4a11ff004638925\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: They can say all they like that it is a silly thing to say, but, in fact, everybody in this House and the public know that that is exactly the case. They have lobbied long and hard for referenda to be put in place and for students to be able to decide for themselves through referenda. As to when that happens, we need only to look at the Auckland University example. When a referendum happened there, the organisation became voluntary in 1 month. There are several months yet before these provisions will come into being. In fact, by the time students return for the beginning of the academic year there will be an additional 2 to 3 months before the invoices need to be paid for their student organisation fees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe last point I would like to make while I am on my feet is about the discussions with the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association. I think it was Mr Shearer who noted that the students associations were keen to talk. We have talked on a number of occasions\u2014on quite a handful, in fact. At the last discussion I had with the co-presidents of the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association I left things in their hands. They were adamant that there was too short a time frame to put this legislation in place, both for the organisations and the student councils. I left it with them to get back to me with written information about the detrimental effects that this would have on students associations collectively and individually, and with the councils. This meeting happened about 3 weeks ago and so far I have heard nothing\u2014not a word from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac17aaf122342bd99331ae9751efed1\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Go talk to your colleagues. They have a letter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c240331598e049f09240429faaf8777e\u0022\u003EHon HEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: That letter went to National members, but not to me or the ACT Party members. If the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association was absolutely serious about amending that date, I would have thought it would make some effort to get back to me and to some National members that they had the same discussion with, with the details necessary to allow me to make an informed decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI look forward to the passing of this Committee stage today, despite the best efforts of Labour members to delay this bill inordinately and actually put students associations in a very awkward position, as they describe it. They need to take some responsibility for their behaviour over the past 8 months. Many students in New Zealand are looking forward to voluntary student membership. They are very keen to have the democratic choice to decide for themselves whether they want to belong to a students association, not for the Labour Party to compel them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022128fcbd5a54a48e9a8ac3d1326b5883e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022128fcbd5a54a48e9a8ac3d1326b5883e\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E What a load of puffery and nonsense from Heather Roy, who has demonstrated once again that she has absolutely no idea about what students associations actually do and how they actually operate. In fact, a lot of the assertions she made in her speech are just blatantly untrue. The University of Auckland students voted for voluntary membership, and the seven other universities, when given the choice to vote on whether it should be voluntary or compulsory membership, voted for compulsory membership. Overwhelmingly at the polytechs and institutes of technology, when students were given the choice about whether they wanted a students association that everyone was a member of or a voluntary membership regime, they voted for it to be universal\u2014for every student to be a member. They did not vote just in small numbers. More than half the students at Victoria University voted the last time they were given a referendum, and something like 80 percent of them voted in favour of a universal system of compulsory membership for their students association. So what Heather Roy has just claimed is absolutely untrue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf the ACT members did believe in democratic process, then they would not be afraid of campaigning for voluntary membership, but they are afraid to campaign for voluntary membership. They are afraid to give students that choice, because they know that they would lose. They know that if the students were given a choice, ACT would lose, because that is what has happened in the past. In fact, in Waikato\u2014where the ACT Party got organised; it campaigned, and it won a referendum to make membership of the association voluntary\u2014it was a disaster. The students voted to put it back the other way because it simply did not work. The ACT Party knows that if democracy were allowed to serve as it should, then ACT would lose. What does it do if it loses democratically? It wants to just legislate over the top of it, which is what it is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI come back to the point I made about Heather Roy having no idea about how students associations operate, and I will talk about that in the light of one of the amendments put forward by Grant Robertson, which would require institutions to provide the associations with names, addresses, and contact information of students enrolled at the institutions. In the instance where an association moves from a universal system of membership in which all students are members\u2014as will happen with all of them if this bill is passed\u2014to one that is voluntary, the association may wish to communicate with those students who have previously been members and invite them to join. I am sure Government members would be in favour of that. They claim that the association should be allowed to sell itself to its current members, but they will deny its getting the contact details for its current membership because the institutions hold that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI used to be the president of a university students association. If we wanted to communicate with our members, we would get the contact information for them from the institutions. We did not hold a separate database of that information. There was no need to; they were our members. Actually, the most up-to-date and accurate information about our members was held by the university, because its staff dealt with the enrolment. They collected the membership fee and they passed it on to us. If we wanted to communicate with our members, we would go to the institutions and get that contact information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf the National-ACT Government votes against this amendment put forward by Grant Robertson, students associations will be prohibited from communicating with their existing members and from trying to recruit and retain them as members. It is loading the dice against the students associations even keeping their existing membership, and against them going to their existing members and giving them the opportunity to stay members. It is a relatively simple amendment that would require the institutions to provide students associations with contact information for their current members, who are the students who study at the institution. The ACT Party, through Heather Roy, is saying that it will not do that. That is absolutely ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIf Heather Roy actually believed in all of the rhetoric that she has been espousing about choice, she would not be afraid to give associations the membership contact details that they should currently be able to get, because then they could communicate and they could give students that choice. Heather Roy does not want to do that. She wants to load the dice in favour of students not being members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, that comes back to the wider agenda. National and ACT know that the students associations have campaigned against some of the policies that they are promoting and will promote, and they want to silence them. Those members want to take as much influence away from the students associations as possible. Those members know that after the next election they will break all of the promises that they previously made on things like interest-free student loans, capping student tuition fees, and so on. They will break all of those promises. They want to get rid of those pesky students associations before they do that, so that the major voice that would be arguing against them is taken away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225465bc7b3eaf44439c07ad035551cef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225465bc7b3eaf44439c07ad035551cef3\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I too will respond to some of the comments made by Heather Roy. In particular, I will respond to her suggestion that an attack on democracy comes from the current arrangements that students have. Well, the current arrangements that students have allow students to have control over student affairs. They are allowed to elect their representatives. They are allowed to approve a budget that includes what services will be provided. The situation that we will be left with now, if this bill passes, is that the decisions about those things will go out of the hands of students and will go into the hands of administrators within tertiary institutions. How is that promoting democracy? How is that helping students to have control of student affairs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Cchoice\u201D has been bandied around a lot by the member in charge of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill and on the rare occasions that National members have got up to speak about why they are supporting this bill. Well, choice means nothing if it is not informed choice. That is what Chris Hipkins was just talking about. Informed choice about whether to join a students association would see the amendment in my name passed, because it would allow students associations to communicate with their members. It would allow students to actually be aware, when they arrive at a tertiary institution, of what services are on offer and what advocacy the students association provides. But, instead, the real agenda of the member in charge of the bill is to destroy students associations for political reasons. The bill is not actually about choice, because if it was about choice\u2014if it was about real choice\u2014then information would be provided to students so that they could make that kind of informed choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOnly one person is responsible for students associations and institutions being faced with transitional difficulties and only one person is responsible for an attack on democracy, and that is the member in the chair, because she is the one who has promoted this bill. It is all very well to attack Labour for having delayed the passing of this bill, but there would be no danger to students associations if the bill had not been put forward in the first place. It is righting a wrong that is not there. It is an ideological attack on the rights of students to organise themselves and to decide what services they will get. Instead, institutions will be in the situation where they will be making up their minds about that matter, rather than the students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI was fascinated to hear Heather Roy say that she wanted to return to the original intent of students associations, so I presume that she will be advocating for lady vice-presidents and for port to be served after all meetings. Things have changed. Students associations are different entities now. They are the providers of professional services. That is why all bar two institutions came to the Education and Science Committee and said: \u201CPlease do not pass this bill.\u201D The institutions know that as time has worn on, students associations have become even more important to the quality of education that is delivered in tertiary institutions and to the well-being and welfare of the students at those institutions. This bill in fact takes away choice, it takes away democratic rights from students, and it hands on to the institutions the decisions about what kinds of services students will have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will also refer to the question of how this bill relates to polytechnics. I have in my hand a letter from the students association of Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology, which has raised the concern that the commencement date and the transitional provisions\u2014which we believe should be expanded\u2014do not actually take into account the situation for polytechnics. Heather Roy said that it was months before universities get going. Well, that might be true. It is certainly not true for polytechnics. It is all very well to have in the transitional provisions something for polytechnic students who are part-way through a programme, but students will be starting right away, from 1 January 2012. I look at the letter here from the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology students, and they are saying that in actual fact, enrolment forms and invoicing for 2012 have already been generated by the institution. So here we are. We are in a situation now where the institution is already getting itself ready, and this bill comes along and causes huge drama for them over that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe associations will have to change constitutions. A number of the institutes of technology and polytechnic students associations have quite different arrangements to universities, because they tend to be closer to their institutions, in some cases, but they also have constitutional arrangements that give them independence. All of that is trampled on by this bill coming in, in this way. Heather Roy said in her comments that she was waiting for the New Zealand University Students\u2019 Association to come to her. I do note that it has been lobbying, for some considerable time, not only ACT but also National on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022245c4b18d8b54886ba4e8192954bad18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245c4b18d8b54886ba4e8192954bad18\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party supports the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson to the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill. His amendment is intended to make sure that details are provided to students associations of the people who might become members and people who are members. I think that is critical. If we look at other associations such as unions and professional associations, we see that part of the standard arrangement\u2014particularly these days, when people are quite mobile and change addresses and all the rest of it\u2014is that the employing agency often provides those details to the association or union. I think that is the appropriate thing. The Green Party will be supporting that amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EHeather Roy said that way back\u2014and it would be interesting to know how far back\u2014student unions were voluntary. Of course, tertiary institutions and universities have undergone a lot of changes. At one time they were very much elite organisations. I would imagine that the students associations would have had to battle for recognition, battle for rights, battle to get a more comprehensive membership, etc., and there has been a very positive evolution over the years. The speeches given earlier prompted me to think back to when I went to the University of Canterbury, many years ago, and joined the students association, as I think everyone did at that stage. The services provided were not terribly wide ranging, if I recall correctly, compared with today when one goes to a university and there are all sorts of counselling services and a myriad of other services available to students that were not previously available. That is a step forward, that is progress, and now it seems that after this bill we might be going backwards, where there would be less provision of services by student unions. Sometimes that slack will be taken up by the university administration as a whole, but probably in a less adequate way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs other speakers have pointed out, those services will not be under the control of the students association and will not be informed by the students association. Students associations better understand the needs of the students in order to shape these particular services. I think that is important, particularly for people who are sometimes a bit alienated and might not necessarily join the student union first off if it is a voluntary system. They might be a bit alienated, and there only for certain lectures or whatever, but they are often the very students who get into financial and emotional trouble. They need professional help, the student services, and the community of the students association to support them, and now they might be the very people who miss out. To have a well-resourced students association will help enable everyone to be part of the students association and to understand that they have access to the services, because they are being informed of them\u2014perhaps all the time with modern communications, emails, and all the rest of it. That will lead to a much better situation for individuals and for the students association as a collective entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAll round, I cannot see why we are changing the status quo. I have not really heard an argument explaining why we need to make this move, except if there is a political agenda to weaken the political heft of students that is currently in evidence through students associations. That is very important, because universities, and students in particular, are often the conscience of society. We see all the former students association officials around this Chamber, and we see that they are very much making a contribution to our democracy. If we knock off that channel of people into public life and into Parliament by weakening the students associations, then we will have a much less informed and vibrant society and, indeed, Parliament. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00223771143197524695a1ebf47d4f71d188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223771143197524695a1ebf47d4f71d188\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare i t\u0113nei p\u014D. I want to take a call on clause 9, \u201CTransitional provision\u201D, of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, as other speakers have, and in particular the direction that this clause applies to any student with regards to having an establishment date of 1 January 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI think it is very important to say that while we are debating a provision of this bill tonight, critical action is taking place before the Waitangi Tribunal at the instigation of Te Mana \u0100konga. What is Te Mana \u0100konga? It is the national M\u0101ori tertiary students association. This is an urgent action, which has come to bear only because of the significance given to it at Te Huinga Tauira 2011. What is Te Huinga Tauira? For many years now, M\u0101ori students have been getting together to debate issues that happen to be current, and to talk, I suppose, all about student life. Last week over 250 M\u0101ori students gathered for Te Huinga Tauira at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea up in M\u0101ngere in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EPart of the discussions at that hui included the news\u2014the breaking news at the time\u2014that Te Mana \u0100konga had lodged a claim with the Waitangi Tribunal against this bill. The students have asked that this Parliament tonight do what is necessary to ensure that they are heard and, indeed, that the case is heard by the Waitangi Tribunal before this bill becomes an Act. I know that those are pretty tight time lines, but things can happen in a short space of time if we really want them to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAt this point, then, I guess I am calling on the compassion and understanding of all the parties in the House to listen to the views of a number of the M\u0101ori students organisations that have been in touch with the M\u0101ori Party over this issue. I am talking about Te Mana \u0100konga, which is the national association; Ng\u0101i Tauira, from Wellington; the WelTec Students\u2019 Association; Manawatahi, from Massey University; Ng\u0101 Tauira M\u0101ori, from Auckland; Te Akatoki, from Christchurch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e2aaec318f47dfb14720a5499eb83f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Did you go to the hui last week? I didn\u2019t see you there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fee849d1e494f549967185597ce1f7e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Te Roopu M\u0101ori, from Dunedin; Te Awhioraki, from Christchurch; Te Waka o Ng\u0101 \u0100konga M\u0101ori; and all of the alumni of M\u0101ori students associations throughout the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5357b57032f48a38ef9f8edba168d0f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Party weren\u2019t there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1492e1ac0254fca8b52f54858931fda\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: We cannot be everywhere, I say to Mr Henare. The claim has from all M\u0101ori students, tauira M\u0101ori. It has come from wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. Importantly, it comes from the perspective of their being stakeholders in, and beneficiaries of, the New Zealand tertiary education system. It is their claim that Te Mana \u0100konga and all M\u0101ori tertiary students have been, and continue to be, prejudicially affected by policy and practices adopted by the Crown and exercised on its behalf by successive agencies and now, in particular, by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFast tracking this legislation to take effect from 1 January 2012, as in this transitional provision, is, in effect, a massive slap in the face for tauira M\u0101ori. I know that Mr Henare was at that hui, because obviously we heard about that, and he pretty much had to defend this legislation. But, in this case, we have clearly been lobbied by the M\u0101ori students associations and we are fully behind them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI will lay out as simply as I can the case that has now proceeded through to the Waitangi Tribunal, so that every member in this Committee can go on record and vote, knowing full well that they are voting against the claims put to Parliament by tauira M\u0101ori. It is their contention that this bill will diminish: \u201C1. \u2026 the right of tauira M\u0101ori to form r\u014Dp\u016B; 2. \u2026 the right of those r\u014Dp\u016B to exercise Tino Rangatiratanga over M\u0101ori student issues, including representation, Whanaungatanga, Manaakitanga, Tu\u0101kana/Teina, Kotahitanga, me \u014Dna Tikanga; 3. \u2026 the right of tauira and r\u014Dp\u016B to form a national representative entity to ensure fair and just tertiary education policies in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u201D These are very important points, which I hope this Parliament will give sufficient time to address. Te Mana \u0100konga concludes: \u201Cthe policy and practice of the Crown stemming from this Bill fails to protect M\u0101ori students\u2019 rights as stated above, and that this is contrary to Te Tiriti o Waitangi 1840 and Te Wakaputanga o Ng\u0101 Rangatira o Niu Tireni 1835.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe claimants have therefore sought two very clear requests: firstly, that this bill be abolished, and, secondly, that provisions be made to protect tauira M\u0101ori, their local r\u014Dp\u016B, and their national representation, Te Mana \u0100konga. I think that their case is pretty clear. The Crown\u2019s failure to consult with tauira M\u0101ori is a breach of the Crown\u2019s duty to act reasonably and in good faith, as directed under Te Tiriti o Waitangi. That is important for them and for us. It is the very strong view of the students that this bill will result in prejudicial effects against tauira M\u0101ori in the tertiary sector, and will impact on the overall framework provided by students associations, which assist in strengthening the support of tauira M\u0101ori. They contend also that the Crown\u2019s inaction in terms of including and/or providing research and analysis into the impact of the bill on tauira M\u0101ori and their wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi development and advancement is sufficiently dire to warrant that this bill be thrown out as an order of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill will stop the much-needed national M\u0101ori student representation, which assists in helping to contribute to, inform, and change Government policy and legislation into the future. As I say, it should be pretty clear that the M\u0101ori Party opposes the bill in the strongest possible way. I seek leave of the Committee that this bill be suspended immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba519096e8504a1fa9580ef3873f1258\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c5c9f89415846c98d82fe0354ec2610\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the Committee that this bill be referred in its entirety to the Waitangi Tribunal under section 8 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229793c970426347ca80698a8ee7570aa4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00222eef75310b234feca1af95887dd5e238\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222eef75310b234feca1af95887dd5e238\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very interesting turn of events, and I thank the previous speaker, Te Ururoa Flavell, for putting that to the Committee, and for the brave attempt at preventing this Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill from passing through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI start by commenting on a couple of points that Heather Roy mentioned in her contribution just before about the students associations going to her and\u2014as she intimated, anyway\u2014their lack of ability to get back to her on a number of issues. I think that was a bit unfair. I think the students associations have come to her on many occasions to talk through this bill with her and to try to seek a compromise, as have we. What they realised was that at the point when there was a possibility that this bill would not get through, Heather Roy was willing to listen and to compromise. When she believed that the bill was unlikely to be prevented from passing, she closed that down. That, in some ways, is in complete contradiction to what she said on Back Benches the other night. She said that some of the best legislation that she had got through had been when parties sat around and compromised\u2014that is exactly what she said. I think it is somewhat sad that she did not take that advice, those ideological words she talked about on Back Benches, and put them into action, particularly with this bill. This bill could have had a much better outcome that would have been durable and long-lasting, and it would have respected the students associations and the ability of people who wanted to opt out and not be part of a students association. Instead, we have the situation as it is today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELet us be quite frank about this: at the point that we were looking for a compromise with Heather Roy, Labour\u2019s point of view was that we thought we could defeat this bill. We thought we had sufficient time to defeat this bill and it would not come forward. We were willing to compromise and put up an opt-out clause, because we felt we could get much better legislation out of this and it would stop this whole issue being ping-ponged around the place, which is to the detriment of students. I want to put it pretty firmly on the table that when Heather Roy pops up and says that it is all Labour\u2019s fault that we are looking to extend out the transitional arrangements to 2013 so that students associations have an opportunity to get themselves ready, we can say that there was an option on the table to have different legislation to the bill we are debating today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe second thing that Heather Roy says, of course, is that it is Labour\u2019s fault that students associations will face an inordinate problem to get ready by 1 January. So, therefore, we are not looking at trying to do something to ameliorate the position of the students associations; we are simply blaming Labour. Well, Heather Roy can blame us if she likes. I submit that, in fact, she is equally as uncaring about what will happen with the students associations as she is in blaming us. I think there is a very strong case under clause 9 to put together a transition clause to enable students associations to get ready much more adequately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will refer to a point I made in my last call. Under the Education Amendment Bill (No 4) there are some real restrictions on universities increasing their levies to meet the services that students associations will no longer be able to provide. This is a very serious issue. We all know what will happen when this bill comes through. We all know what will happen when clause 9 is enacted. What will happen is that the students associations will run short of money, which happened in Waikato and at Auckland University and every single Australian university where the same sort of legislation was put in place. When that happened, the universities had to step up and pay the students associations or contract out the very services that the students associations once provided. It is ironic, and I hear Sir Roger Douglas call out \u201Cfreedom\u201D or \u201Cdemocracy\u201D or whatever he calls out from time to time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2caafda6f8c4eadaa0bc7171058449a\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s hard to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132a69709083433a8a6ae474f91fd21f\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: It is hard to say, but there is a grunt over there in the corner that sounds a little bit like \u201Cfreedom\u201D. But, effectively, students will be levied money for the services they receive now from the university without any representation. Taxation without representation is supposedly something that the ACT Party upholds higher than just about any other value that its members espouse\u2014perhaps no taxation would be one\u2014but they are not willing to examine that in the light of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI come back to the Education Amendment Bill (No 4). It puts in place a number of stipulations for universities to consult with their student bodies. It puts in place some regulations on the degree to which a levy can be raised. We know that in the case of Auckland University\u2014let us take that example\u2014the levies went from more than $100 to more than $500 to meet the costs of services that the students association there once provided. Now the students association, quite frankly, is a contractor to the university. It does not have the same ability to represent students as it did before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIn my reading in this area I came across a quote from the UK Conservative Party, which at the moment, as some members may know, is raising the cost of universities considerably and stripping away basically a free university education there, to huge protests. The Conservative Minister for Universities, David Willetts, praised the contribution of students associations in a recent speech saying that students associations \u201Care playing their part in their local communities. To local schools, hospitals, charities, friendly societies, I would add student unions.\u201D He does not call them a union in the sense of a workers\u2019 union; he calls them a union in the sense of an association like those other societies that he referred to. He says: \u201CWe value student unions. We salute them and what they achieve for and on behalf of students. Without them, universities would be much poorer institutions, as would the employers, causes and political parties who take on their alumni.\u201D That was a Conservative Minister in the throes of making universities in the UK much more expensive to go to, yet he is valuing students associations and ensuring those students associations stayed there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EMr Locke, as did Ms Roy in her contribution, talked about the fact that students associations were, in fact, voluntary early on in the New Zealand university experience. According to my colleague Grant Robertson, who actually did a thesis on this issue, which I did not know\u2014it does make him something of an expert on the matter; just in case he does not get another call, I just want to say that he reflects from that thesis, and I think he should make it into a book\u2014students associations became compulsory when the University of New Zealand was split up into the various universities that we largely see today. At that point there was a clause put in the legislation that created our universities from the University of New Zealand and said that students associations should be compulsory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002248fe25dcf54c4e51854d0f75d22a679d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248fe25dcf54c4e51854d0f75d22a679d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abd7824ef7e54e4d8b99beaef972b9f3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will hear about the thesis from Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002231517babfabb4f0db8d1d93bf2134428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231517babfabb4f0db8d1d93bf2134428\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E It will take somewhat longer than 5 minutes to read it, but I am sure an extension of time will be granted by the Committee, which will no doubt be enthralled by it. It was a dissertation; I should not overstate what it was. I am sure it has been one of the highest interloans the University of Otago library has ever had! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI will talk about two additional clauses that are being proposed by Labour. In particular, I want to talk about an amendment to clause 10 in the name of Trevor Mallard. It was an issue that was raised numerous times during the select committee process and was around the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202faa44063a5436ebe0e144d9a3538ef\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 9. We cannot talk about clause 10; we are not on it. We are on clause 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf511af2818e4f6a849af17c68801684\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will return to clause 10 in the future, I hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3d019388d14098beec1706d4e15ea3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t want to rush through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f79625fad35c4f5fb166e3e839227669\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The other matter I want to raise is about clause 9, and it is about the question of the timing of the transitional provisions. I note that there has been a wide-ranging debate on clause 9, which is a good thing because the act of transitioning to this proposed new regime is a significant act, and it impacts on everything students associations do. One of the things it impacts on is the ability of students associations to communicate with their members, and to get across to members what services are provided and what additional services could be provided in the future if students associations were allowed to carry on. Unfortunately, because of the unwillingness of both the member in the chair, the Hon Heather Roy, and National to actually consider bringing in this bill in an orderly fashion, students associations\u2014as I mentioned before, like at the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology\u2014are now faced with a situation where the enrolment forms for students have already been printed and are about to be sent out. They have on them the fees that students have to pay. What will happen now to those institutions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe polytechnic students associations play a very important role in their institutions. Part of the nature of students associations in universities is that people will perhaps take 2 to 3 years of time on a students association, contributing\u2014they are often at the institution for 3 to 4 years. There is some institutional memory and some continuity. In polytechnics, people are often there for quite a short period of time on courses of perhaps only 6 months or even less, or maybe a year or 2 years. One of the things that polytechnic students associations do is to establish themselves in a way that they can provide some continuity for members. That continuity is at risk with the absence of a decent transitional provision in this bill, because those associations have, as I said in an earlier call, constitutional arrangements. They mean that the students associations need to make changes to be able to continue to operate as they do now. I think the institutions themselves, as we know from the submissions they made, really will struggle to be able to put in place those services for students immediately upon the passing of this bill, if that is what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EClause 9 is inadequate. It does not allow for the different nature of students associations, which has been a feature, I might say, of this bill. It really does cut to the heart of the fact that this is an ideological crusade. It is an ideological crusade against university students associations on behalf of those who have issues with some of the political stances that have been taken by students associations. That is what this boils down to, and it really does ignore, in many ways, the role of polytechnic students associations, many of which will not be able to negotiate the service agreements that some of the university students associations will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFundamentally, the absence of a proper transitional clause re-emphasises the ideological nature of this bill. It re-emphasises the taking away of student decision-making rights in what will be provided for students in the future. So it is a real shame\u2014and I know I have exhausted my calls on clause 9 in this debate\u2014that in debating clause 9 we have not heard a single peep out of National members to justify their support for this bill. Not a single peep\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236aa3fd09bcb4dd2b6792565fa7adce4\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Peep!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022838dc439733e495d9a77298db086a6bf\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: There we go\u2014Simon Bridges has given the best contribution of the year: the word \u201Cpeep\u201D. That is it. We have not heard a single thing from National members to justify their support for this bill, other than Mr Henare\u2019s interjections, and they are not actually justifications; they are sounds\u2014they may be words; they are certainly sounds. That is all we have heard from National members. We have not heard from them an actual justification for this bill, because they know from the submissions they heard in the Education and Science Committee that this bill should not pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04b0610e62e4b2bbf04425d98b7ac7f\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: You obviously haven\u2019t been listening, Grant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea4f0244a9743e98405ba19af5cfb94\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have been listening. Louise Upston says I have not been listening. I have been listening to a lot of speeches in this debate. They have come from members on this side of the Chamber and occasionally from Heather Roy, but they certainly have not come from National members to justify why they are passing a bill that will destroy students associations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to the heading to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003Eto omit the heading and substitute \u201CTwo classes of students provisions\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e6c5c1b36764a6294c7e05d68642639\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000428\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Kris Faafoi to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000429\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) \u201CThis section applies to any student who on 1 January 2012\u201D and substitute \u201CThis section will not apply to any student who on 1 January 2012\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298438a5744394eedb9f9eb43dfffc57a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000430\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Sue Moroney to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000431\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) \u201Cstudent\u201D and substitute \u201Cperson\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220fc94e6ea9d14f62a397ba6559911bc4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000432\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Sue Moroney to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000433\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1)(b) \u201Cinstitution\u2019s\u201D and substitute \u201Cestablishment\u2019s\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289eba66ebbd8484a83f7eb934748a817\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000434\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of David Shearer to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000435\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (1)(b); and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000436\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2)(a) \u201Ca member of the student association\u201D and substitute \u201Csubject to compulsory student association membership\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022283cf4c09d0e4c10b3e6a962cb3dc80a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Mana 1; Progressive 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022b49335a951fe4bca8ed7be0777fa1a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b49335a951fe4bca8ed7be0777fa1a95\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Whip\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just listening to my colleague Mr Locke with regard to the votes for the Mana Party, and bearing in mind that the Mana Party has not voted for some time and Mr Locke is exercising that vote, I am just checking whether that is right\u2014especially in respect of this bill, because we did not have any discussion earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8fdd4e447f4ddbb70ea0bf1980bb00\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just ask the Green member who holds the proxy for the Mana Party, I understand. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f17e2202772f4857a21e0d3aad60725c\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have just received a communication that we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229648082265f64754be1dd0983c1786a5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The vote is in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2)(a) \u201Cor 31 December 2015, whichever comes later\u201D after \u201Cenrolment\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002258b1b029cc0f4c63ad411f443fa411cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000443\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000444\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000445\u0022\u003E(3)\tDespite sections 229A to 229CA, information must be provided by the institution to both prospective and current students about any student association at the institution for the purpose of informing the student about joining the association.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000446\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe type of information referred to in subsection (3) includes\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000447\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe services the association provides members:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000448\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe services the association provides non-members:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000449\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe fees and levies which apply to joining an association:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000450\u0022\u003E(d)\tthe process of electing representatives of the association.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d780547bb3b9416084fea4b2a5ff71d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000451\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000452\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000453\u0022\u003E(3)\tThe institution is to provide its student association with the following details of students for whom any membership fee of the kind prescribed in section 229CA(1) is currently collected from\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000454\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe student\u2019s full name; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000455\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe student\u2019s contact address; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000456\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe student\u2019s contact phone number; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000457\u0022\u003E(d)\tthe student\u2019s email address.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022572775b91325462685f18cf459b025fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aff420ba6e25405cbad4997690d24cad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8c9421edd1c4a7fbcb65c52501151eb\u0022\u003ENew clause 10  Funding services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022803a7782d0544003a128a78e2c62f280\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: There is an amendment in the name of David Clendon to add new clause 10, as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 203. This is out of order, as a financial veto certificate has been lodged, and therefore no question will be proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297ec7c1655cf4cee8361c9450d533bb6\u0022\u003ENew clause 10  Implication for Student Loan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21c2b0db2d5496c8007f23aec82177a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to add new clause 10 is out of order, as a financial veto certificate has been lodged, and therefore no question will be proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f11dd462b7804c45903f12880bacdc76\u0022\u003ENew clause 10  New section 229D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b12958038e84171a4f2c7ae996b3747\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: There is an amendment proposed by Grant Robertson to add new clause 10. This is out of order, as it relates to a subject area dealt with earlier in the bill and should have been proposed when the Committee was considering amendments to Part 16A of the principal Act in clauses 6 and 6A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbc9acdb7c4c45849223820e3eead1ff\u0022\u003ENew clause 10  Charges for non-members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a2e1d77e964dcba46d04353562fdb8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: There is an amendment in the name of Grant Robertson to add new clause 10, \u201CCharges for non-members\u201D. This is out of order, as it is the same as an amendment that has already been lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002241754de8ebe84457bb093df7ab06d29b\u0022\u003ENew clause 10   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000467\u0022\u003EReview of Sections 229A to 229CA\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3b383d6c55483882d4de65f445f8d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3b383d6c55483882d4de65f445f8d3\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E New clause 10 that is in my name is an important addition to this Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, because by extending the debate around clause 10 we are trying, essentially, to make sure that students have all the information they need to be members within students associations. It is important, in saying we are putting forward a new clause 10, that the bill gives us the opportunity to ensure that students associations can survive. That has been the concern raised on this side of the Chamber, and it has been accepted by National on the other side of the Chamber, that the bill is not about destroying students associations. So if the bill is not about destroying students associations, then we need to provide a way in which students associations can continue to exist. The new clause 10 I am proposing will insert in the principal Act a new section 229D \u201CInstitution to provide association funding\u201D, which states: \u201CEvery institution where a student association exists\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb759ae2685e4af7ac9db20a20a2bf80\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: A point here to the member: he is speaking on the wrong new clause 10. The one he needs to be talking about, which is in scope and which I have agreed to have debated, is \u201CReview of Sections 229A to 229CA\u201D\u2014review of sections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd0ac011f6e406db6168d69a34371e2\u0022\u003EGRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was not aware, because when you announced the new clause 10, Mr Chairperson, I was not sure which of the excellent new clause 10s we were allowed to debate. This one allows for a review of the changes that have been made, because one of the things we have noted in the past, when changes have been made to membership of students associations, is the use of referenda, and the use of review of provisions after a certain amount of time. This, again, is something that National has previously said was an acceptable thing to have happen with students associations, and this particular clause 10 would allow for reviews of the passing of particular clauses that have previously been in the Act. This allows students to continue to have a voice in how they are organised, because we have to remember that, fundamentally, what the previous clauses we have agreed to in this bill do, is actually take away choice from students. The current clauses that are within this new part have in the past given students the ability to have some control over their affairs, but by removing those clauses and bringing in the new clauses that have been passed, that choice is actually taken away. We have to have the capacity to review those clauses, and to be able to say to students that they have an opportunity in front of them, within 5 years, to see whether the provisions are working, to see what their impact has been on the provision of services, and also to make sure that students have a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe new clause 10 that we are debating, as opposed to a future clause 10 that we may debate shortly, requires a review of sections 229A to 229CA, which have been included. Proposed new clause 10(1) states that the Ministry of Education will run this review and that it will be 5 years after the date on which the legislation receives Royal assent. Clause 10(2) states: \u201CThe review shall assess the impact of the provisions on students and the tertiary sector in accordance with the terms of reference established in subsection (3).\u201D Proposed new clause 10(3) states: \u201CThe terms of reference for the review shall be set out by the Minister of Education.\u201D, and proposed new clause 10(4) states that the Ministry of Education will then report back to the Minister of Education and the Minister for Tertiary Education. This clause is about a 5-year review of this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is important because the evidence we have internationally is that student services disappeared when voluntary student membership arrived\u2014in particular, in Australia. Seventy-five percent of the services provided by students associations disappeared under voluntary membership. That had a huge impact on the experience that students had in their institutions. So the new clause 10 I am proposing would allow for a review, to see the impact of the legislation on students. There has been a lot of debate. We believe that the evidence internationally shows us what the impact will be. But here is the opportunity for the National Government to say: \u201CAlright, we accept that we need to look and see what will happen when this legislation passes. We accept that there could be detrimental effects on students.\u201D National members might try to argue that, in fact, it will be a positive thing for student services. Let us have a review and look at that. That is what new clause 10 does. I suggest that after 5 years is a good length of time to be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow that I am on the right clause there are a few more points to make. It may well be that some of the impacts of this bill will not appear immediately. Students associations may well be able to survive for a period of time, based on their reserves, in an attempt to try to attract some members. It is, perhaps, difficult to do that at the start of a calendar year. The impact will emerge over a period of several years, and what this clause does is allow for a review after 5 years from when the legislation receives its Royal assent. It is important we do this, because what is being done tonight will effectively change the nature of student experiences right across the tertiary sector. It is no small thing. It is not, as some would say, just a technical change that allows students the freedom to do whatever they want; it fundamentally will undermine the experience of students in tertiary institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe have already heard tonight from Te Ururoa Flavell about the action that is being taken by Te Mana \u0100konga. Te Mana \u0100konga is addressing a very specific matter, which is the role that the M\u0101ori students associations on campuses and at a national level play in the experience of M\u0101ori students. Not every student arriving at a tertiary institution is in the same place. Not every student arriving at a tertiary institution knows what will happen to them when they are there. I know from my time in students associations, and in more recent times from working in the tertiary education area, that the strength of M\u0101ori students associations and, indeed, of some other student groups that help support groups within tertiary institutions is the key to the success of those students. Having a body of students that is able to support other students of the same ethnicity or in the same experience group has made a real difference to the lives of those students. So the change that is being made tonight merits a review clause of this type, because it is a significant change. It is a change that will affect the very well-being of students who attend tertiary institutions. I think the issues that Te Mana \u0100konga is raising within its claim about what kind of experience students from different backgrounds have when they come into a tertiary environment are very, very legitimate. Students associations over the years have worked very hard to be able to provide support to those students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is also the same with international students. There is a different experience again for international students coming into a foreign environment and not only not always understanding exactly how the institution works but also not understanding the customs and the interactions that they are not familiar with that go on between students. Students associations have provided a vehicle for that, and it is a significant vehicle. It is also the other services that students associations have created over the years. Student Job Search was essentially created by students associations and on the initiative of students associations. The very existence of things like Student Job Search has made the difference to some students being able to stay and finish their studies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe changes that are being proposed tonight in this bill fundamentally alter the experience of many students, and the legislation deserves a review that will take into account what has happened if this bill passes. As I say, all the evidence we know about from overseas is that the legislation will be detrimental, but in New Zealand we need to see it for what it really is and for the impact it will really have on students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other part of the clause is about exactly who will be doing this review. It should be the Ministry of Education. The ministry will be impartial and will not take into the review any baggage around the past activities of students associations. That is not politicising the review; it is saying that the Ministry of Education will look at the legislation. There is an important point in that. The Ministry of Education should do the review, because what students associations do is support the educational outcomes of students. This is a very important signal to be given that actually what students associations do is about educational outcomes. There has been a lot of talk in this debate about unions and about why if we do not have compulsory unionism outside of the tertiary sector we should have it inside. It is because that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what students associations are. They are democratic bodies of students who make the choice to be students and at that point become part of a greater whole, which is the student body. By law, since, as Mr Shearer said earlier, the late 1950s and early 1960s we have made the decision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223d8f6649d24d4dfeb6a757c18c506adc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d8f6649d24d4dfeb6a757c18c506adc\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E If National and ACT members actually believe the rhetoric they have been espousing during the debate on the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill\u2014if they actually believe what they have been saying\u2014they will be voting in favour of Grant Robertson\u2019s proposed new clause 10, \u201CReview of Sections 229A to 229CA\u201D. They have argued that if the bill is passed, all of the services, all of the representation, and all of the things that we on this side of the Committee have argued will be at risk are, in fact, not at risk and will still continue to be provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThey will, therefore, be quite happy to have a review in 5 years\u2019 time and demonstrate all of those things. They will be quite happy for the Ministry of Education to take the politics out of it and to review it and say \u201CYes, this service is still being provided, this service is gone, and this is the way institutions are choosing to manage student representation.\u201D, or that student representation has disappeared altogether. An independent review\u2014and I think the Ministry of Education would be sufficiently independent\u2014would establish whether the rhetoric being put forward by National and ACT members is true or whether it has simply been a move by them to remove from the political process and the democratic process organisations that have in the past been very vocally opposed to many of the changes they have tried to make. I would certainly argue the latter, whereas they have argued the former. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe reason I would argue that is if we look at the limited experience we have had in New Zealand of voluntary students association membership\u2014and it has been limited because overwhelmingly when students have been given the choice as to whether they have a voluntary or a universal system of students association membership, they have opted for the universal system\u2014we see that many of the services previously offered have disappeared. At Waikato University, the students lost just about everything, so much so that they opted to go back to a compulsory system because the students at that institution valued those services and wanted to see them restored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think there is a really good cause to say that if we pass this bill today, in 5 years\u2019 time we should reflect on it. As a matter of fact, I think that as a broader principle for the House in general, it would be very useful for us to review much of the legislation that we pass 5 years after enactment, to consider whether the laws are working in the way they were intended to or whether the House needs to reconsider them. I think it is probably quite good practice for Parliament to make sure that laws are reviewed regularly to determine whether they have had the desired effect. I do not think anybody should be afraid of this amendment. I think that if National and ACT members believe the things they have been arguing through the debate of this bill, then they will be very happy to support this new clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat the new clause would do is allow the Ministry of Education to report to the Minister of Education and the Minister for Tertiary Education, with the terms of reference for the review set out by the Minister of Education. The review would assess the impact of the provisions on students and the tertiary sector, in accordance with the terms of reference that would be established. I guess it is important to note that this review would be 5 years after the date on which the bill receives the Royal assent. We are not talking about something that would come into effect straight away. It would allow a period of time for the claims that have been made by the people proposing this bill to be tested. A review would allow students, the institutions, and other interested parties to have a say on whether the claims made by National and ACT were, in fact, true, or whether they were misguided, as I think they must be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt would also allow the consideration of evidence from international jurisdictions. There is probably more evidence from Australia on the impact of voluntary student membership than there is in New Zealand. Like I say, the New Zealand experience in universities has been relatively limited to simply the association at Waikato University, which has gone back to a universal system of membership, and the association at Auckland University, which built up a very large asset base under a compulsory membership system. That is one of the things that has helped that association get through, despite having voluntary membership. It would be interesting in this review to consider, for example, the respective positions that students associations go into the voluntary system in. Some of the university students associations have very large asset bases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe associations at Canterbury University and Auckland University have large bodies of assets and large cash flows from trading operations with which they will go into this voluntary regime; others, such as the association at Victoria University, go into it with very few assets and, therefore, the impact of a voluntary system on them may be significantly greater. They will lose their revenue very quickly. They do not have trading activities to support them that they can continue to cross-subsidise from. A review in 5 years\u2019 time would allow those impacts to be assessed. Although I am very strongly in favour of this amendment by Grant Robertson, he probably should have given us a few options. Rather than a 5-year review, it would have been useful to have some options as to whether it should be after a year, 2 years, or 5 years. I strongly contend that for the associations that I have mentioned that have a very low asset base and no trading activities, the impact will be quite immediate. For the associations that have a large asset base and have built up large reserves, the impact will potentially be felt in the longer term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the things that a review after 1 year would do is assess how associations that have built up those large asset bases and large reserves have behaved, and what they have put those assets towards. One of the things I am a little concerned about\u2014it has not actually been touched on much at all in the debate\u2014is the potential under a voluntary system for asset stripping of the students associations once they become voluntary. It is quite possible that when we move from a system where membership of these associations is totally universal to one where a very small number of students could effectively take over a students association, they could asset-strip them, spend the money however they choose to, change the constitutions of those organisations, and spend up the money at large and not necessarily for the purposes for which it was originally collected. This bill does not make any provision for that. That is one of the reasons why I think it is very important that there be some systematic form of review. In fact, I argue that 5 years is too long to wait to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe are not talking about inconsiderable sums of money; it is in the millions for some of the larger university students associations. They have assets and reserves in the millions, and there is no protection of those once this bill passes. There are no transitional measures that mandate, for example, any democratic process or any protection in terms of what happens to those assets once these organisations become voluntary. That has not been canvassed in the debate by any Government member or by the member proposing the bill. I am genuinely concerned about that. These assets have been built up over a number of years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn the case of my old students association, the Victoria University of Wellington Students Association, it has been in existence for about 110 years\u2014maybe 111 years, I think\u2014and a lot of assets have been built up over that period of time. A lot of interests have been built up over that period of time that are not immediately tangible assets, and we potentially need to think about how they would be transitioned to a voluntary membership environment. For example, the student union building at Victoria University does not belong to the students association, because the students association, in its benevolence, gifted it to the institution, but the association continues to have a significant interest in that building. That is based, of course, on the current settings where all students are members of that association. What happens to the beneficial interest in that building that the students association currently has when it no longer represents all of the students at the institution? How will the institution manage that? There is no mention of that in this bill, and no systematic process is set up in this bill for addressing those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think that is a good justification for there being a fairly thorough and comprehensive review of it. Again, I argue that 5 years is too late, but at least after 5 years we would be able to establish where some of the money has gone if, in fact, it has disappeared. At the moment it is quite possible that the money will disappear and we will never hear anything more of it, because there will be no review to determine where the money has gone. I am very concerned about the significant asset base that these associations have built up, about how they could potentially be abused, and about the fact that this bill does not make any provision whatsoever for dealing with that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo a review after 5 years\u2014as set out in new clause 10, proposed by my colleague Grant Robertson\u2014is a very prudent and sensible move, and I think that National and ACT would be very well advised to vote in favour of this provision. It is a sensible provision and it will not delay the progress of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u002244d6742f89da42fbbf308874f2cf2a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244d6742f89da42fbbf308874f2cf2a3d\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I also support the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson, for similar reasons to those that Chris Hipkins was just talking about. I think we need to look at two things here. First of all, the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill is a contentious one. Over the last decade and a half we have swung backwards and forwards between voluntary and compulsory membership. A review of that, a review of the way that the bill is progressing and the way that the students associations are actually faring under this new regime, would be a good thing to institutionalise within the context of the bill with the addition of new clause 10. Of course, if and when we have the next Labour Government, we will probably bring forward the review much sooner than 5 years. We will probably look at putting in place robust and enduring legislation that would perhaps depoliticise this particular issue and enable the students associations to carry on and do what they are supposed to do, which is to continue to provide the services and advocacy they have been providing up to today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut if we were to have a review, and if it were to happen every 5 years, we would want that review to look at a number of different aspects. First of all, what services were being provided at that time versus the services that were being provided 5 years before? If we look at the experience of both the Australian situation and what has happened at universities in New Zealand, we sort of know what will happen. We will see a degradation of services, we will see services taken over by the universities, and we will see the universities charging students for the continuation of those services. We will see the universities not only charging students but then contracting back many of those services to the students associations, which have been running those services for many, many years, and we will see students paying a levy but not having the opportunity to have representation in relation to what money is going to them and how that levy is being set. That is one aspect of a review of this area that I would certainly welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe could also look at some of the services that the students associations are taking an active role in right now. We, as New Zealanders, have an active interest in making sure those services continue. One, for example, is Student Job Search, and the job search and careers advice that is being provided to ensure that our students go on to be productive members of, and enormous contributors to, the workforce of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc3baa1a34344dfa3156b44c4074e64\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Before we broke for dinner I was looking at the amendment that Grant Robertson has put to the Committee to insert a new clause 10 into the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill. His thinking around this, as he explained it, was that after a period of 5 years\u2014and I think the period is arguable, but, anyway, that is what it says\u2014we would look to review sections 229A to 229CA. That would mean that we go back to the whole concept of whether to have a voluntary students association or to make it compulsory. Actually, I do not like the word \u201Ccompulsory\u201D, because it is compulsory to join up, but if students want to opt out, there is the option to opt out, as many other speakers have talked about before. But this review would look at the applicability of the bill we are looking at tonight 5 years down the track. My personal preference would have been a series of options\u2014rather than 5 years, perhaps 1 year, 2 years, 3 years. I think 5 years is a long time, and in the course of that time an extraordinary amount of damage could be done to students associations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe important thing here is what exactly the review would cover. If we look at the legislation 5 years down the track, we will probably want to compare the services available from the university that students accept and enjoy right now with the services being provided in 5 years\u2019 time; to look at the advocacy that happens now versus what is happening in 5 years\u2019 time. I guess the question in terms of services is whether the services are being provided by the students associations or actually by the universities. What has happened in pretty much every case where a bill of this nature has been brought in\u2014in Australia in particular\u2014is that the students associations effectively have collapsed, and the actual universities themselves have picked up the costs of some of the services, but not necessarily the complete menu of services that were being provided beforehand. So the universities, in effect, were having to charge levies, were having to charge students for those costs. In my mind that would be the No. 1 issue if we were to review this legislation. I think it is a good thing to do; all legislation should be reviewed. Perhaps putting in a clause with a compulsory review in 5 years\u2019 time is quite a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe second part is looking at the students associations and seeing what services they provide to the students; not those services that are found around the outside of the universities\u2014the counselling, health, and various other cultural and sporting services, all those sorts of services, which I think will end up suffering under this bill\u2014but the type of thing students associations are doing to improve teaching and improve the various aspects of university life within the classroom. I know after going to Unitec, the polytech in my electorate, and talking to the students association, that it has an extraordinarily good programme that actually rates the quality of the teaching. That is not terribly comfortable for a lot of the lecturers and teachers, I have to say. It is not a terribly popular thing. But the chief executive officer of Unitec agreed that it go ahead, and pretty much everybody accepts that it has lifted the quality of the teaching and lifted the quality of the tuition within Unitec\u2019s various lecture theatres, classrooms, labs, and other places. So students associations are not there to offer just the health, counselling, sporting, cultural, radio\u2014or whatever\u2014services that people have talked about; they are making a substantive difference to the quality of the tuition and teaching that is happening within the classroom, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIt would be good to look at the management of student services. This is something that I know Heather Roy has talked about before. I agree with her that some of the student services that have been offered and some of the student management that has happened in some of the universities and many of the polytechs have simply not been up to scratch. Fairly young students with perhaps very little management experience are asked to manage large amounts of money on behalf of the student body, and I agree that the management of that money and the way that it is accounted for is something we should look into and something we can improve. I think the university students associations\u2014certainly, the national body\u2014are in agreement with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELastly, I would say that the review might want to look at the way that the different institutions vary amongst each other. The students association in a large body such as Otago University might be somewhat different from that in a small polytech or even a private training establishment in the way that it functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba9027fdbac94652b8d8fa843130ac64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba9027fdbac94652b8d8fa843130ac64\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb206fd2ef643b4b5beadb00493c417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb206fd2ef643b4b5beadb00493c417\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni, Mr Chair, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on clause 10 of the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill. I, like my colleague David Shearer, want to focus on the amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd577dba11c4ecc84d16eec2cb40858\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Name-dropper!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225088c078baa9411e87ad70a176bbcc8a\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Tau Henare\u2014how is that for name-dropping! I would like to focus on the amendment put forward by Grant Robertson\u2014yet another name we have dropped\u2014that will see a new clause 10 put into this bill, to ensure a review of the voluntary student membership legislation after 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI would like to support some earlier contributions that were made by Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party around his concerns for M\u0101ori students with the passing of this bill. I also say that I have some serious concerns around the effects of this bill on Pacific Island students. I know that both M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students have heavily relied on the students association at the polytech in my electorate, Whitireia Community Polytechnic. I know that it has had a chequered past in the last couple of years with its finances. I know that Don Campbell, the chief executive, may be watching, and I know that he holds a different ideological position from me and that he is a supporter of the voluntary student membership bill. I think that this move by the Government, in particular by ACT, which is seen to be the tail wagging the dog in this instance, will have serious adverse effects on both Pacific and M\u0101ori students at Whitireia Community Polytechnic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe 5-year review will look at how this bill, which may become law very soon, will have an effect on student services, and I am very concerned about the effect it will have on what the students associations provide for their students, such as the cultural aspects, pastoral care, academic support, and sporting support. After 5 years the big question that will be asked is what has happened. We do not have to look too far to find out what the experience will be. As David Shearer pointed out in his contribution, since voluntary student membership was passed in Australia in 2005, in subsequent years we have seen some serious degradation in the services for students at their tertiary institutions. Essentially, the associations have collapsed, and the services available to students have drastically reduced. In many cases a user-pays system has been introduced at the tertiary institutions across the Tasman. At the moment, that can have only a negative effect for M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students, who are struggling, as it is, just to get into tertiary education. If they are forced to pay even more for the services that are being provided under the current regime, that will have a seriously negative effect on the tertiary experience of many M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students. As we have seen across the Tasman, this has disadvantaged a lot of those students who come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, a lot of tertiary institutions have had to take on some of the functions, the services, and the assets that previously have been provided by students associations and operated by students associations. In effect, although the ACT Party said that this bill will make things much easier for students, that it would give them choice, that it would give them freedom, and that it is about democracy, it will actually put the burden of the services and any assets that have fallen on those students associations fairly and squarely on the institutions. That means that taxpayers will be burdened with more costs in the long run. As we have said, tertiary institutions across the Tasman have taken on more of this burden, and this has resulted in many unpopular decisions being made, such as elite sports teams being funded at the expense of social sports teams. There has been a noticeably large price increase in campus services, and, again, that will be a disadvantage for many lower socio-economic groups of students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere has been an increase in the price of campus services and an increase in the number of campus services activities being outsourced to private sector firms. In the past, we have had the student spirit behind making sure a lot of these services are provided to students at a pretty reasonable rate, a pretty cheap rate, but we will now find the private sector coming in and saying that it can provide that service at a profit. Of course, that comes at a price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have also noticed that across the Tasman a thousand jobs were lost in the student services area. There is one instance that I am concerned about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a975041acc40b088cc9ac05f20e145\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a975041acc40b088cc9ac05f20e145\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (Leader\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I thank my colleague from Mana, Kris Faafoi, for speaking just prior to myself. Kia kaha, bro. I was not going to come to the Chamber to speak to the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, but I heard the k\u014Drero from the M\u0101ori Party while I was up in my office and I just had to come down. The reason why is that when I heard the M\u0101ori Party talking about M\u0101ori politicians getting in behind this Treaty claim, I shook my head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI shook my head because I have been talking to M\u0101ori students. I met with them at their annual w\u0101nanga just last week, and they told me that the only reason they had to put in a Treaty claim was that they came to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who is also an Associate Minister with responsibility for M\u0101ori education, to get assistance with this issue, the review of the provisions. They came to ask for his support for this kaupapa, to ensure that M\u0101ori rights would be recognised under the terms of the provisions of the clause that we are considering now\u2014the review of the provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915ab4ecfc8a4e84b2b6fd0141bd31a5\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My point of order relates to relevance to this amendment to the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f69cb8fafbc849aeabc8cfd532a33195\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Ms Upston. I have urged the member to refer to the review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538d110a604a4821a9d3f05184e7fa86\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: I did actually refer to the review of the provisions that apply at a 5-yearly term. I heard the M\u0101ori Party talk about the fact that this needs to go before the Waitangi Tribunal and whether M\u0101ori politicians should be lining up against this bill and in support of the claim to the tribunal, because that claim is also about the review of the provisions and when that review should take place. In the students\u2019 view, the review should be taking place immediately. Also, the students said to me that the reason why the claim has gone in is that there was no support from the Minister and no support from the M\u0101ori Party. When I look at this report from the Education and Science Committee, I see a minority report from Labour and I see a minority report from the Greens. I have heard a lot of talk from the M\u0101ori Party, but it never bothered to put it in the committee\u2019s report at all. Clearly, there is no sense that the M\u0101ori Party opposes this bill. It certainly is not in this committee report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen we asked the students themselves about this review of the provisions, they were particularly concerned that they would have to wait for 5 years, instead of those provisions being reviewed immediately. Hence the reason why this claim has gone in. They see no support from the M\u0101ori Party or from the Minister for students to take action. They see no stand taken by the Minister or the M\u0101ori Party in defence of M\u0101ori rights and the review of these provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221025161d540f49c689a97ba517329a1f\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I find it interesting that Mr Harawira is making accusations with regard to the M\u0101ori Party on this particular clause, when he was not here at the beginning of the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449c0bccde4547a0b0f99a8b14d7e271\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is a debatable issue. Not only that, but the member has been here long enough to know that he cannot refer to the absence of a member. Every member, at one stage or another, has to be absent from the House because they have other duties. It is against Speakers\u2019 rulings to refer to the absence of a member. I call Hone Harawira and ask him please to refer to the review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0dfad8d0bc4b129b9e2a44d22d19e0\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: In the review of the provisions of this particular bill there has been no support from the M\u0101ori Party or from the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e88498a22f401ebeac304e98c09557\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bd47385533472795940a538961a9a6\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: There has been no call for a special Treaty case for M\u0101ori students at all. I think the member on that side of the Chamber knows that. There is nothing mana-enhancing in this particular clause. There is nothing in this committee report. In fact, in terms of the review of these provisions, there is nothing in this bill but a roll-over by the M\u0101ori Party and their Minister to allow ACT and National to crush M\u0101ori development and M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82bcadffb4545239f7916ffffb2d99c\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I bring your attention to Standing Order 107 covering relevancy. You have brought Mr Harawira to attention on two occasions up until now. You have asked him to speak specifically to the clause at hand. He has failed to do that on two occasions. Under Standing Order 107(2) you have the ability to terminate his speech, and I ask you to do that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1388791edc41cdb85c4ecb7008ba3f\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, on every occasion, every minute or so, I have always referred to the review of the provisions, which is what we are discussing tonight. At no stage have I allowed 60 seconds to go past without specifically referring to the review of the provisions in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222168457a88ad439e9d479f8dd5fdda0c\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I make two points to you. First, you will note that there has been quite an amount of interjecting on the honourable member Hone Harawira, and on a number of occasions he has responded to the interjections and the disorderly behaviour on that side of the Chamber. Second, saying that you are allowing this member to speak outside the scope of the bill is in actual fact implying that you are allowing this debate to be held outside the provisions of the Standing Orders\u2014that you are allowing the Standing Orders to be broken. I do not think that is right. I think you have a very good handle on this issue, and if you were in any way concerned I am sure you would have brought the member back to order. I say that I am very happy with the way you have been chairing the debate tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea19c3d82ee54c04b1aa1463631c662a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. I say to all members that the member has only a few seconds left to speak, and the member will refer to just the review. It is clause 10 as amended and put in place by the honourable member Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b68b4c6af8e4be4b1c57fbff8bc6d20\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Party vote, Mana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00223be6653c15ef4f1db992366d06b94360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be6653c15ef4f1db992366d06b94360\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00220905d00928c4413f8a916911ddd5f5ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220905d00928c4413f8a916911ddd5f5ba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members that there are to be no comments at all during the taking of a vote. It can be seen as intimidation, which means that it can appear as a breach of privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f74deebc44e4bf4b057305cae829acf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000527\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Grant Robertson be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000528\u0022\u003Eto add the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000529\u0022\u003E10\tReview of sections 229A to 229CA\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000530\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe Ministry of Education shall review the effect of the operation of sections 229A to 229CA 5 years after the date on which this Act receives Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000531\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe review shall assess the impact of the provisions on students and the tertiary sector in accordance with the terms of reference established in subsection (3).\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000532\u0022\u003E(3)\tThe terms of reference for the review shall be set out by the Minister of Education.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000533\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe Ministry of Education shall report to the Ministers of Education and of Tertiary Education.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d4045ef386f4574b514059e9185982e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew clause 10 not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228710595a17b549cb811ca03eb0af5575\u0022\u003ENew clause 11  Polls must be held\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da04e6cb6968401386351eae3fb0276b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: New clause 11 is out of order as it is contrary to the principles of the bill as agreed to at the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abae07c87772497683f4ef8dc869a45a\u0022\u003ENew clause 12  Triennial Polls must be held\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda58cec73384c18ac23410c5407285e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: New clause 12 in the name of the honourable member Grant Robertson is also out of order as it is contrary to the principles of the bill as agreed to at the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253c02ea760cb44599f8d04cc2267c7c9\u0022\u003ENew clause 13  Enrolment in a Student Association\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865a3bf66da44c6faa0970517af35639\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment to add a clause 13, also in the name of the honourable member Grant Robertson, is also out of order as it is contrary to the principles of the bill as agreed to at the second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a703705c119d45b6acddbab37ec5a0b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a703705c119d45b6acddbab37ec5a0b2\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would like you to expand on your rulings a little bit. I accept that it is your decision, and yours alone, but it seems to me that if you are going to rule out an amendment on the basis that it differs from what was agreed at the second reading, then it appears to me that the Committee can accept only amendments that are consistent with, and agreeable at, the second reading. Therefore, it does tend to restrict the ability of the Committee of the whole House to amend the bill when it comes to the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI would have thought that the second reading was a time when the House considered the report of the select committee, when it considered the bill as amended, and once that is done it comes to the Committee, and the Committee itself can then make further amendments. I do not know that all the amendments have to be agreeable on the second reading. Surely if that were the case, it would say so quite clearly in the Standing Orders and I do not recall that it does. It could be that an amendment is ruled out because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. If that was the case, then I would accept your ruling immediately, but you have made a different ruling. You have said that it is inconsistent with the principles of the bill at the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second reading has been and gone. It is now for the Committee of the whole House to consider the matter as the bill stands. Therefore, I think the Committee is at liberty to amend the bill quite freely. I accept that the amendment cannot be inconsistent with the principles of the bill, but you have ruled quite differently from that. I would like you to reflect on that because I think you are setting the Committee into new territory here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI would like you to expand on your decision because I do not think it is particularly good practice simply to bring down a decision without an explanation. You have given us your decision and you have given us a reason, but it is not an explanation. I think you should give the Committee an explanation as to why you have ruled it out as a result of the second reading, which is different from the Committee of the whole House. I would appreciate your very considered ruling, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045041a9e99d4586a1c03c82a2d9b1f6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Hon Rick Barker for his considered views. I make the point to him that at the second reading the House agreed to the principle of voluntary membership of students associations. So any amendments that would directly overturn that principle are not in order. One can turn to Speaker\u2019s ruling 112/6: \u201CAny clause is out of order which is\u2014\u2026 (4) In conflict with the provisions of the bill.\u201D In the second reading the House agreed to the principle of voluntary membership of students associations. So I will report this bill without amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022964a9994919a49eab6e5354c1301fb74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022964a9994919a49eab6e5354c1301fb74\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is a new point of order. I seek the leave for the Committee to vote again on clause 2, including voting on a handwritten amendment in my name to change clause 2 to delay the commencement from 2012 to 2013. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292068389096944638927f3435a74a7f9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Any member is entitled to seek the leave of the Committee and the member is doing duly that. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e7624bab2884651afe48dda83b3024f\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226efdc380118e448d8219c0d1c3be8204\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c49596bd18ef4e66b5016669e860de7a\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002281f87558bd3d42f28e387639d93401d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281f87558bd3d42f28e387639d93401d2\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on clause 1 of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I note that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, of which I am a member, made a recommendation that the original title, the Employment Relations (Workers\u2019 Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, be changed. It is interesting that the recommendation in the report from the select committee says that the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D should be removed because that term is not used in the principal Act, and that is true; it is not used in the principal Act. The bill seeks to require unions and not workers to hold secret ballots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI go back to the genesis of this bill. It came out of Tau Henare\u2019s brain a couple of years ago when he was lying around thinking \u201CWhat can I do to put forward a bill that makes me look important but doesn\u2019t really have a problem?\u201D. It is a bill that is looking for a problem, and we do not have a problem. He put the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in there, because, I presume\u2014I ask the member in the chair, Tau Henare, and he might respond to that\u2014he could not bear to write the word \u201CUnions\u2019\u00A0\u201D. He could not bear to write the word \u201CUnions\u2019\u00A0\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe Transport and Industrial Relations Committee was right when it looked at this clause, because the title \u201CEmployment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill\u201D actually provides for unions to have the secret ballots, not workers. But it is very interesting. I would like to know what members opposite and the member in the chair think unions are, because, actually, they are workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EBut I maintain that the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D ended up in the title originally because the member in the chair has had such a torrid history with unions in the past. We all know that he thinks he was a hero in the 1980s of the very militant Clerical Workers Union. He is looking back to those glory days and he has not realised that times have changed an awful lot. I think that he is holding on to some kind of grudge and could not bear to use the word \u201CUnions\u2019 \u201D in this bill, so he used the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said, the select committee was absolutely right; there is no such thing as \u201Cworkers\u201D under the Employment Relations Act. I would be really pleased if there were, because the meaning of \u201Cworkers\u201D is actually much broader than that of \u201Cemployees\u201D. The meaning of \u201Cworkers\u201D is everybody, including contractors, who are people outside of the employment relationship, as well as those who are in the employment relationship. The meaning of \u201Cemployee\u201D under the Employment Relations Act is very specific. It is all there. It is all about the employer-employee relationship, apart from homeworkers, who can be in any kind of employment relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EHomeworkers can be contractors, and that goes back to a case that was taken in the 1990s about homeworkers who were being paid less than the minimum wage and were being employed as contractors. It was a famous case\u2014it was Cashman v Central Regional Health Authority\u2014and the outcome of that case was to say that homeworkers are actually employees and, as such, they should have all of the entitlements of an employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was quite comfortable with the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title, because I thought that if we could introduce the new word \u201Cworkers\u201D into the Employment Relations Act, then that would bring into employment law a whole new category of working people who are currently not in that law. I have already mentioned dependent and independent contractors, who do not have employment relationships. They are outside employment law, and there are a lot of problems with what is happening to them. They are being exploited in many cases, apart from the very highly skilled workers in that situation. In fact, I tried to do something about workers in the minimum wage for contractors bill, which National members voted down last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d72bc877014d6ca242c36bbad161f9\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022554672ef1ef949708f9bde3f4317b4ca\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: It was an excellent bill that would have seen a minimum wage for all workers in New Zealand, whether or not they were in employee-employer relationships. It would have covered vulnerable contractors such as courier drivers, whom I see on a regular basis, who are not earning the minimum wage and who are being enormously exploited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESo I did not have a problem with the original title, and I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed. Members will note from the select committee\u2019s report that the bill was passed by majority, and Labour put in a minority view. I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed that we did not retain the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title, because I think it would have opened up a whole new area of law beyond the employment relationship. We would have been able to have a discussion. We would have been able to argue, in this bill and beyond, that workers, whether or not they are in employee-employer relationships, are covered by all the provisions of the Employment Relations Act. I would have really welcomed that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EBut I go back to the point about the member\u2019s original title. I would be interested in hearing from the member in the chair about why he put \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title and why he did not put \u201CUnions\u2019\u00A0\u201D. I wonder whether there is some sort of prejudice lingering from his time as a Clerical Workers Union organiser in the 1980s. In those good old tough days, that member used to wander into workplaces and say: \u201CLet\u2019s pull the pin. Everybody out!\u201D. He could look tough; he could look really important. Clerical workers, for goodness\u2019 sake! I do have to wonder whether he was just harking back to those days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, he may still have some residual resentment about unions, because in the end he did not survive in the union movement. I would not say that he was kicked out of the union movement; certainly his reputation is still alive, is it not? People still talk about Raymond Henare. They all talk about what he used to do in the good old days of the 1980s, when he was staunch, but he could not hang around during the 1990s, when it got really tough. In fact, he ended up sidling up to the National Party. He has consequently joined the National Party and helped make sure that things get harder for workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI would be interested in hearing a response from the member in the chair about why he used the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D and not \u201CUnions\u2019 \u201D, and about whether he is comfortable now with the change that has been recommended by the select committee, which changes the title to the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I want to know whether he thinks that is better than it was, or whether he regrets losing the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D from it. I want to know who he had in mind when he was talking about workers, why he did not use the word \u201CUnions\u2019 \u201D in the first place, and whether he was just trying to target a particular group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am interested in why he put \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in there in the first place. Maybe he should have put \u201CCompanies\u2019\u00A0\u201D in there, as well. That is a debate we will have a bit further on as we get into this debate, because I have an amendment that proposes that companies or employers that are imposing the opposite of a strike\u2014which is a lockout\u2014should have to be subject to a secret ballot, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe title clause is very interesting. It is a very interesting clause, and I am sure that my colleagues will have many other suggestions about what the title could have been. As I said, this is a bill looking for a problem\u2014and there is not a problem. Maybe that could have been the title of the bill. It could have been the \u201CEmployment Relations (Looking for a Problem) Amendment Bill\u201D, or the \u201CEmployment Relations (Using a Sledgehammer to Crack a Peanut) Amendment Bill\u201D. It could have been the \u201CEmployment Relations (National Hates Unions) Amendment Bill\u201D. Who knows? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe title could have been the \u201CEmployment Relations (Let\u2019s Make Stuff Up) Amendment Bill\u201D, because there is no problem here. The member in the chair knows that. He knows that there has not been a problem. Actually, since his bill was first introduced in April 2010, I would be very surprised if there had been one single worker in the country who has complained about being forced to go on strike\u2014one single worker who has been forced to go on strike without a secret ballot for a strike, as the title suggests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI would be interested to know how many complaints the member in the chair has had. Going back to the title, I think that another possible title could be the \u201CEmployment Relations (Tau Henare\u2019s Time in the 1980s Clerical Workers Union was a Complete Failure) Amendment Bill\u201D. Who knows? Or it could have been the \u201CEmployment Relations (Let\u2019s Go After Workers and Make Life More Difficult For Them Than It Already Is) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae1913e55be480c93b4f1398a1d1ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae1913e55be480c93b4f1398a1d1ae7\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very useful and informative contribution by my colleague Darien Fenton. I too would be very interested in knowing the views of the member in the chair, Tau Henare, about the title of this bill, the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, why the original title had \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in it, and what his views are on the striking out of the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D. We now have the \u201CEmployment Relations\u201D\u2014struck-out \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D\u2014\u201C(Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe first part will obviously be a change to the Employment Relations Act. The Employment Relations Act is about the relationship between a number of parties in the workplace. Those parties include unions and employers, and individual workers and individual employers, so both collectively and individually all of those groups are part of the employment relations that take place in a workplace. So it would be very interesting indeed to know Mr Henare\u2019s views on the striking out of the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EJust to follow through on a point that Darien Fenton made, my understanding is that the UK legislation deliberately uses the word \u201Cworkers\u201D, for the very reason she identified, which is that it is broader than the term \u201Cemployee\u201D, and therefore covers the multiplicity of relationships that now exist. In fact\u2014and this is certainly true in New Zealand\u2014many of those relationships have been established in such a way as to remove rights from people, so employees have a number of rights that do not necessarily apply to other groups like, for example, contractors. So that term \u201Cworkers\u201D is a broader term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EWe are talking about employment relations. Specifically, this bill is focused on secret ballots for strikes. I would be very interested in getting to the bottom of the question why this bill is even here, and why we have wasted time in the House, in the select committee, and again here in the Committee of the whole House looking at this bill. It is an absolute joke. The submissions we heard made it very clear that there was not a problem to be dealt with. I have to again reinforce the points that Darien Fenton made: if this is a problem, it is a problem that is perceived to be of an earlier time. It is certainly not reflective of the relationships between unions and their members, and employers, in the 2000s. It is not a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EGenerally speaking, secret ballots exist. Generally speaking, in fact strikes are comparatively rare, and bullying union officials, like the sort of union official that someone like Tau Henare was, are not commonplace. Members opposite might mutter under their breath about whether we can say that, but that is a fact. If members opposite want to hear more about that, I am sure we could give them more information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI was a union official for many years of my working life, and I never once stood over a worker. I never once put pressure on a worker to take strike action. Those decisions were indeed the decisions of the workers concerned, freely made. That is the only way, in common sense, that we can see how a strike can take place. We cannot force people out the door. We cannot lock the door behind them, unless we are the employers, and keep them out. The reality is that it is harder and harder, in the current environment, for workers to get together collectively to take action to improve their wages and their conditions of employment. It is much harder in periods of high unemployment. It is much harder in the anti-worker and anti-union environment that currently exists, and if National is re-elected, that will get a whole lot worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIt is not easy for workers to take strike action, but the reality is that it never really has been that easy, because we all know\u2014and just in case members opposite do not know\u2014that if we go on strike, we lose pay. That is quite hard for the average working person, because they need their wages and salaries to live on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI go back to the title of this bill. The bill is supposedly about secret ballots for strikes. We will be talking a lot more about industrial action during the course of the evening, because striking is a form of industrial action, and of course the flip side of that is the lockout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fac64d89b4a84645951a2405734b2b4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fac64d89b4a84645951a2405734b2b4d\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree entirely with my colleague Darien Fenton that I would not have been too fussed about the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D being left in the title of this bill. To me the word \u201Cworkers\u201D returns a bit of the personal touch to this bill. We have to remember that workers are the people whose sweat and tears are what carries industry and business. By removing the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D from this title we are just depersonalising this whole bill and making out that workers do not mean a lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI do not really understand the purpose of this bill and why it is necessary. We all agree that secret ballots for strikes are fine. It is just the common practice that carries on now, but the removal of the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D from the title I think depersonalises and desensitises this bill. It is just another one of these bills that National is infamous for\u2014bashing workers and their rights, their conditions, and their pay. That is what this bill is really all about. That is the underlying menace of this bill. It is just another dig\u2014continuing the work of this National Government since it was elected\u2014at workers and their rights. It chips away at the very people whose sweat and industry carries this Government forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EWe have to remember that when we talk about workers we are talking about people. We are talking about the mums and dads who have families and kids, and who work in the factories, the abattoirs, and the various places all around the country. They are people, and we should be looking after them, because it is their work that lifts the country. We have to remember that. We cannot desensitise ourselves to the very people whom we should be helping to make this country go forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI believe that there is no reason to remove the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D from the title and just have the title as the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I think that is pointless. We should keep the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title so that it reminds us that we are talking about people as we go through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAgain, this bill continues what National has started. We have a litany\u2014in fact, it is a rap sheet\u2014of what this National Government has done to erode workers\u2019 rights. If we put all these pages together, it would be literally as long as my arm. We have the employment relations legislation that introduced the 90-day trial period. This bill is just a continuation of what was started then. That was one of the first pieces of legislation that went through this House during the time when I was first elected to Parliament. This bill is just a continuation\u2014more chipping away at workers\u2019 rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EOf course, we then look at the pitiful rises in the minimum wage. I think it was 50c in 2009; again, that shows workers getting hammered by this Government through pitiful hourly wage rises. The minimum wage went up 50c the first time, and I think the second time it went up a massive 25c. That really highlights the value that this Government places on workers, on people who do the hard yards, and that word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D is being removed from the title. The Employment Relations (Rest Breaks and Meal Breaks) Amendment Bill denied vulnerable workers their basic rights to minimum breaks during a working day. Workers were attacked once again; a continuation, as I say, of the rap sheet from the National Government. I do not know what National has against workers. I do not know what it has against people, the mums and dads of this country who get out there and try to earn a living to feed their kids, to put a roof over their heads, and to put clothes on their backs. I do not understand why this Government wants to take another little pot-shot at workers, in the form of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022427a153540c54e90a8d7a96e250d560f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022427a153540c54e90a8d7a96e250d560f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What a waste of Parliament\u2019s time the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill is. This could be called the \u201CEmployment Relations (What a Waste of Time) Amendment Bill\u201D, because that is what it is. What is it about this National Government that the only things it wants to fix are non-existent problems? It does not want to fix all the actual problems that are out there, such as the fact that workers cannot get pay rises and that there are no jobs. It cannot fix those problems, it has no plan, so what does it do? It wants to fix non-existent problems, such as the requirement for unions to hold a secret ballot when workers want to strike. We should not be surprised, because the member in charge of this bill, Tau Henare, is widely regarded as the worst union organiser in the history of the universe\u2014in the history of the universe. It is a title he wears with pride. So this bill is a little bit of revenge. Maybe this is the \u201CEmployment Relations (Tau Henare\u2019s Revenge) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e3f3c242fc46cd90c6ec8cec803f6a\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Tau\u2019s last stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b09817402e4bdf97006fc5fe3e7e77\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Tau\u2019s last stand, as my colleague Jacinda Ardern says. I think there is an element of truth in that. This bill does nothing except wrap up people in red tape, in bureaucracy, and in time-consuming costs, all of which National members are meant to hate, because Tau Henare wants his revenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is that we do not need this bill, because unions already have within their rules the allowance for secret ballots where appropriate. Why does the National Government feel the need to interfere in a relationship between unions and their members\u2014unions and their members\u2014who have democratically decided how they will determine when they strike and when they do not, and when secret ballots are held and when they are not? Why does the National Government feel it needs to interfere in that relationship? Why does it need to get involved? There is no problem here. There is no outcry from workers who have been forced to strike when they do not want to. Secret ballots are held all the time, as Mr Henare would know if he was not the worst union organiser in the history of the universe. Maybe he does know. Maybe he does not care. I do not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this is an utter waste of time. This is the \u201CEmployment Relations (Utter Waste of Time) Amendment Bill\u201D. That is quite a high bar given some of the legislation we have seen from this National Government in the area of employment relations. This bill is absolutely pointless, because there is no problem. There is no outcry. This is just interfering by a Government that has an ideological opposition to unions that it cannot get over and that wants to divert attention away from the fact that it has no plan to address the actual problems facing New Zealand workers\u2014the actual problems. If it had a plan, then maybe we would be here passing legislation that would make a difference in people\u2019s lives, instead of legislation that does nothing. It does nothing except impose huge costs. There are a number of industries\u2014I say to Chris Tremain that I think Tau wants to take a call and he is asking for his permission\u2014in New Zealand that are spread across the entire country that have shift workers. It is entirely impractical for them to be able to call all their workers together for a secret ballot. It would impose huge costs. It just would not work at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo what Labour says is let the unions sort that out with their members. That is the relationship where they can sort that out. Whatever their members want, they can democratically decide that. A one-size-fits-all approach of the kind we see in this ridiculous legislation tonight will not work. It will not work. It will cost more and it will do nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMy colleague Darien Fenton raised a very good point: if we are going to require this of unions, why are we not requiring it of shareholders when a company decides to lock out its workers? Why, on the flip side, are we not requiring all shareholders to have a secret ballot to say whether they agree? When a company decides to lock out its workers, that can have a very negative impact on the reputation of that company. Shareholders might well say that they want to have a say in that, because they may not agree that locking out those workers is the right thing to do. Oh, but no, we do not do that\u2014we do not do that at all. It is only the unions that Mr Henare has in his sights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00224e97c45097e84e609d81a9c468f14621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e97c45097e84e609d81a9c468f14621\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Taloha ni, Mr Chair. It is a pleasure to speak on clause 1 of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. We are on the title clause, and I guess that people at home may be thinking that the title clause is mundane and boring, but in this instance, as Darien Fenton and Kelvin Davis have mentioned, it holds a lot of the motivation for what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EUsually when legislation is passed in the House, it is to give some benefit, or to right a wrong, but the fact that the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D has been removed from the title shows what National is really all about: if benefit or advantage is to be afforded to anyone, it dare not be to any workers, so the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D had to be removed from the title of this bill. It dare not be the workers, so the word had to be removed from the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis bill does nothing for the benefit or the advantage of workers, at all, which is a sad indictment on this Government in terms of its Employment Relations Act amendments in this House. We first saw the provisions of the 90-day fire-at-will bill\u2014as we like to call it over on this side of the Chamber\u2014extended to small businesses, and then expanded out to larger businesses, with restrictions on unions, and of course we cannot escape the fact of this Government\u2019s miserly increase in the minimum wage. Yet again, this bill is another change in employment relations that has nothing to do with increasing, or at least protecting, the rights of workers in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think it is a little bit ironic that we have this bill, which makes it compulsory to have secret ballots when unions want to have strikes, before the Committee today when the previously debated bill, the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, is to remove the compulsion from student union membership. It is very odd; it is ironic. I do not know what members want to call it, but at home people may see the muddled thinking behind what this Government is doing, in terms of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere is a Eurythmics\u2019 song entitled \u201CWhy\u201D; I guess a lot of people at home are wondering why this bill is being introduced. Moana Mackey has already traversed why this legislation needs to be changed, what the problem is, what the issue is, why we are doing this, and what is not working. The answer to those questions is nothing. This bill did not need to be introduced. Secret ballots can already be held at the moment to ensure that when a strike is called, a majority of workers agree with it. So why this bill has been introduced we do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere were a handful of submissions to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on this issue. If Andrew Miller of Auckland is watching tonight, I commend him for the first line of his submission, which says: \u201Cthis bill serves no meaningful purpose in improving industrial relations in New Zealand,\u201D. That is a nice sentence. It pretty much sums up the opinion of members on this side of the Chamber on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ELet me move to the Council of Trade Unions\u2019 submission on this bill, the \u201CEmployment Relations (Scratch the Workers\u2019 Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill\u201D. The Council of Trade Unions agrees with Labour in terms of the problem that this bill seeks to resolve, and why it has been given priority over so many other issues that are facing Kiwi workers today: \u201CIt appears to be designed as more of an attack on workers, their unions\u201D\u2014and Moana Mackey has already traversed the chequered history of Mr Henare with unions\u2014\u201Cand the right to organise than as a response to any real problem with the industrial relations framework.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have seen the recent example in the UK where the introduction of compulsory secret ballots has caused real problems for unions to exercise their right to take strikes. Two recent challenges to strike ballots in the UK were based on what we would consider to be trifling reasons, and resulted in injunctions preventing strike action. Such challenges not only prevent workers from being able to exercise their freedom of association rights but also\u2014and here is the nub of it\u2014delay resolution of disputes, and can harm and worsen industrial relations. In that respect, this bill could be counterproductive to making sure that any industrial disputes are sorted out in a timely and, in what members on this side of the Chamber would call, a fair manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere was one change, I think, at the select committee to this bill. It concerned the fact that secret ballots do not need to take place in terms of health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00225d68ab9e6a0f4c9284cc6d5e1f1f55fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d68ab9e6a0f4c9284cc6d5e1f1f55fb\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am standing along with my colleagues. I have to put on the record that I agree with everything that has been said today about this bill, the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. It is a waste of this House\u2019s time. One could ask why. The only good point about this bill is that whilst this bill, which does absolutely nothing, is going through, the Government\u2019s agenda of dealing to workers and putting through legislation that takes rights away from workers is not happening. Usually, it is customary that that happens under urgency so that people do not have much opportunity to have a say on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EMuch has been said about the title of this bill. I think, along with my colleague Darien Fenton, that it could be called the \u201CRaymond Henare (I Have a Chip on My Shoulder) Bill\u201D. It seems to me that the Government, one way or the other, has a very, very low opinion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397c016e4a00437fb48dc3a5c8d6b5ba\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My birth name is Raymond Tau Henare. I am known in this House and outside it as Tau Henare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1e68c28ce04aedb2798b9d315a50e6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228888284008bf45378f98bd3e369f274f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am a little bewildered by that point of order. Was that a point of order, a point of information, or a point of clarification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d5013853ab43a6b5f95d1f23763ad1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We would have to seek the member\u2019s view for that. I understood it was a point of clarification that was done through a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229932d762b10541f18cec5becfe5afc79\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I ask respectfully that you, Mr Chairperson, invite the member to elucidate whether it was a point of order, a point of clarification, or a point of information. I would like to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d549ea49f2472f919a3256c918035a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is up to the member whether he wishes to clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272629edde3a54fada4b98a1d54431d66\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: It was in response to the member speaking. She tried to belittle me by using what she thinks is just a funny part of my name, but it does not. She should refer to me as Tau Henare, which is my name in this House and outside it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a54fe99fa584127be7f83d911abce00\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I in no way intended to belittle the member, at all. I referred to the member as Raymond because his union experience goes back to when he was an organiser with the clerical union, and at that stage I believe he was known as Raymond. That was why I thought it was appropriate to refer to the bill as the \u201CRaymond Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc799813be6e4ae7b0f8e305533014eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I say to members that courtesy is contagious. We will all prosper if we stay within the spirit of the Standing Orders. Regarding names, members must refer to members by their title or their name, in this case as it is recorded in the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b18f14c557b4425a6b5b0a7a5c43736\u0022\u003EMichael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I get to my feet to mention the use of the term for the member who introduced the bill as someone having a chip on his shoulder. It seems to me that this suggests or implies that the member is somehow getting revenge back on the union movement and, therefore, it is an imputation of an improper motive. That appears to be in breach of Standing Order 116.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022852a00cc46bb4ee9a2408b9db69aa0e7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I know what he is referring to. He is referring to personal reflections, which is Standing Order 116. I say to the member that in a Speaker\u2019s ruling it is up to the member himself to take offence\u2014[Interruption] I am on my feet. Members make disparaging remarks about each other all the time. It is when it is a personal reflection that it is out of order, which is Standing Order 116.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be8e324fab345458a7df48b8aa8bd4c\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I do accept members on the other side jumping to the member\u2019s defence, because it would be fair to say that Tau Henare is the only member of National who has had any experience of workers and unions, be it rather not the most pleasant experience for workers and unions in New Zealand. He is the only member on that side of the Chamber\u2014and I will stand corrected if there is anyone else\u2014who has any real experience of unions or of working with workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c14479bffb544cebb25df05ce45b11a\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae9a8619f06f424894b2e7b88237cf83\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish, rubbish. Apart from rubbishing, as those members do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022657b85a2ce2647ae924b0b4ea05c0b74\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a19ecd50e84745b1a85542066bc96095\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish, Rubbish\u2014that got a bit of passion! Never mind the views of Sandra Goudie on unions. Those members see that Tau Henare is somehow the authority on what happens in that mystical world of unionism. This is a Government that vilifies workers, vilifies unions, and it actually vilifies people who do not work. It vilifies people who are not able to work when there are plenty of people in New Zealand who, through no fault of their own, cannot work under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e329cf550ec641f595572a5cd5eabc17\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Bullies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daea6c050e9d404c98728590cf6ae855\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: My mate at the back says \u201CBullies\u201D, and I am inclined to agree with him. Those members are bullies, and they are very ignorant of the rights of workers in New Zealand\u2014those who are left\u2014because the Government is steadily decimating workers\u2019 rights. I know that other colleagues have spoken about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThis member is so obsessed with a secret ballot, as other colleagues have said. I myself as a union official have never ever ran a strike vote without a secret ballot, and I have to say that strike votes are very seldom occurrences. It is really serious to ask workers to withdraw their labour. It is a very serious thing to do, because they will not have any income and a strike has a detrimental effect on the business they work for. So it is a very rare occurrence. A strike ballot is done by a secret ballot. That is common practice. But that member is out of touch. I ask this Committee, and I ask members on the other side to take a call, as to whether\u2014[Interruption] I cannot hear Sandra Goudie\u2019s words of wisdom; I hope she stands and takes a call, rather than shouting from the peanut gallery. This is based on fear. This member\u2019s obsession with secret ballots is probably because he had to run them. Having him as a union official would be a dreadful, dreadful situation for a worker in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c16982929ce4a55a539cff76f3c406f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ba0ba2d9e54137a6b83c14802d9d93\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: It would. I would say that workers in New Zealand would insist, if that member was the organiser, on having a secret ballot because if they did not do what he wanted, he would be looking in that mean way he has. All of us have seen it. We have been trembling in our boots on this side of the Chamber, with his stony glares at us and his threatening manner. We all know about that. I know he is looking like butter would not melt at the moment, but we know the fearful side of Tau Henare. That is why it is really important that workers under his watch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb16355556742bd95ec13a87b10b56c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb16355556742bd95ec13a87b10b56c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I follow an appalling contribution to the Committee from Lynne Pillay. Not only did that member get personal but she thought she knew her subject. Well, let me tell this esteemed Committee that the worst union organiser in this country\u2019s history was Fintan Patrick Walsh. That is right\u2014Fintan Patrick Walsh. He used to throw people off the bloody\u2014excuse me, sorry, I apologise\u2014ferry. He was an appalling unionist, and not one of those members on the other side of the Chamber will get up on their hind legs and say otherwise. Sorry, but Fintan Patrick Walsh was one of the worst unionists this country has ever, ever seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ELet us talk about Moana Mackey. She is here only because she took over some sort of rogue dynasty from her mother. She took over from her mother as some sort of union official down on the East Coast, for goodness\u2019 sake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0c91de1c154cf9969a9e4c52c3d69b\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I understand we are up to clause 1, and I have not heard the member in the chair refer at all to clause 1. He has given just a rather personal tirade\u2014which we on this side of the Chamber quite enjoy, actually\u2014and that little tirade about history does not seem to be of much relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285e880ab80d24b8395471ae9e8e90dcf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for her contribution. A number of Speakers\u2019 rulings say that with any speech in reply the speaker has some time to rebut some of the accusations against him or her. But I would hope that the member would shortly come to answering the questions that were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ef18713b62142c3a038cedf2dd6493f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, now that I have dealt with the last speaker from over there, let us have a talk about Mr Faafoi. He says this Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522179a68311473dba406d152ede5b3c\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s a bully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d1770fea4d468386ec45c193f40bf1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The member wants to call me names. Oh dear! How sad! I am really hurt. I am really hurt. Lynne Pillay has spent the last 10 years in this place, and she has never ever\u2014ever\u2014in the last 10 years said anything worthwhile on the floor of the House. It amazes me. It is no wonder she lost to Paula Bennett. It is no wonder that Paula Bennett is the member for Waitakere, and will continue to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2aa6ffa8b346fd901011f9d0368e59\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I really question the relevance of this at this point\u2014we are debating clause 1\u2014particularly given that the member began his speech by questioning the personalisation of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca374b6cbcaf4734b17dc3bced4b8871\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I again thank the honourable member. It has been rather robust debate tonight. When people make interjections on someone who has the floor, they can expect some feedback. But I ask the member now to come to the title, and to answer some of the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c357841286ad4b2bbab08c6e8aec8b69\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: If this bill is such a waste of time, why have we spent the last 40 minutes listening to members on that side say the bill is a waste of time and not worth debating? Why have we been hearing from those members, who have been getting up and down for the last 40 minutes to talk about a bill they think is a waste of time? Well, I can tell the Committee why. Mr Faafoi said this bill does not increase the safety of workers. I say to Mr Faafoi \u201CGuess what? It does.\u201D It protects the worker from the bullying tactics that we all know are out there\u2014the bully-boy tactics from the unions. That is what this bill does. It protects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe funny thing is I think about Christchurch, where all the people have insurance\u2014well, most of the people have insurance. A secret ballot, whether of a union or of a country, is insurance against intimidation. That is all this bill is. It is insurance. It is insurance against intimidation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284e3544b0cc54aa686542459969778c6\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Should shareholders get secret ballots? Do they have to do secret ballots, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255649e0190247c983a808b4bd304b82\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It is insurance against the bully-boy tactics of the likes of Moana Mackey and her mother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebb24d3edc549fa8812c51dd9730a99\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rather rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174f4606e5b44deaa6b5b1dd4b4df984\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That is what this bill is all about. And, while I am on my feet, I say that those members get up and say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcaa572e81c445e4914c64a7b7d0974f\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: Seconds out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e49523b103940538198764b8de96f0e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that the word \u201Cworker\u201D is being pulled from the bill. Well, here is the reason why, I tell Mr Davis and Mr Faafoi; here is the reason why. If they knew what was in the principal Act, they would realise that the word \u201Cworker\u201D does not appear in the principal Act. It was the Labour Government that passed the principal Act, and nowhere in that Act of Parliament, which was passed by \u201CLady Muck\u201D, Helen Clark\u2014she passed that bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ff2a006bebd4863b5b491a24f976efd\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I take offence at the reference to the previous Prime Minister. I would like the member to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229784b54118194072ad644f9935478e1e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member cannot take offence at that. People make disparaging remarks about each other all the time. This is a robust Parliament. But I would ask the member to try to be careful. Courtesy, as I said, is contagious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808432c735fe4247b7647e16e8b3c7d3\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would have been if they had been courteous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ENowhere in the principal Act does the word \u201Cworker\u201D appear. Work out why Kelvin Davis got up on his feet and said that that was an attack on workers\u2014that it was a clear attack on workers\u2019 rights that the word \u201Cworker\u201D had been pulled from my bill. But the word does not even appear in a bill that was put forward and turned into an Act by a Labour Government. Work that one out. My question to Kris Faafoi, who could not even find his way to McDonald\u2019s in 1960, or whenever it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da07a4959cb4ab68c31b81a4d8587c6\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: You did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a8ba4d27dc943c8b2a06702d86538ce\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014absolutely! I know where they all are, and I am quite proud of that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe last thing I will say, for the moment, is this. How horrible members on that side of the Chamber must feel. They think that this side of the Chamber does not have any unionists, does not have any people who have worked with workers. Well, I have news for Labour: most of the members on this side either have been delegates or have helped out during their work experience, way back\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4ad749667014297ac49338fd86676b4\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Which of those ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767a68a65ecd4556a69109219f0cab98\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Name them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88fd524080249fab6701454ad7a812f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, in the abattoirs people have worked in, in the hospitals people have worked in, they have belonged to unions, and they have also been delegates on the shop floor. That is not the preserve of the left. It is about representation. It is about making sure that people are OK. That is it\u2014end of story. I look forward to some pearls of wisdom from the little miss from Waitakere, Lynne Pillay, and others, as this debate goes on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022943f9c52e45244b7ab519a3716ebf78d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022943f9c52e45244b7ab519a3716ebf78d\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I feel as if I am in a vortex at the moment. The member in the chair, Tau Henare, spent quite some time trying to explain to the Committee why the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill is incredibly important to him and to the Government, yet he is the only Government member who has spoken on the bill. If there is such passion on that side of the Chamber, I really would welcome a call from, perhaps, Sandra Goudie, who gestured that she had once been a union delegate. I would genuinely like to hear Ms Goudie\u2019s delegate stories. I would genuinely like to hear them. Perhaps she was a union delegate for the mangroves of the Hauraki Plains! I really would welcome hearing from her. In fact, I would welcome any Government member speaking to this bill. I believe that they would only reinforce the eloquent comments made by the member in the chair, who did refer to his bill once or twice once he was done with his insults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut I have an actual question for the member in the chair. I would really like to understand the origins of this bill a little better. He did allude to his knowledge of the union movement and his history in the union movement, but actually he is trying to debate a point that we are not debating. We are not debating that there is anything wrong with the use of secret ballots. In fact, the reason that we, on our side, allowed this bill to go to a select committee in the first place was that we acknowledged that secret ballots were common union practice. We therefore had no fear of this issue being discussed. But it became more and more obvious to us that this legislation was unnecessary, and that, in fact, it had the ability to create a distortionary effect. We are not debating the relevance of secret ballots here, I would say to the member. So I would like to hear, from his perspective, some genuine examples, some real-life, recent cases that, obviously, have been brought to his attention. I fail to see why he is driving this bill, unless he has had some experiences or cases brought to him. Perhaps if he shared those with the Committee, that would improve our understanding of his motives, because at the moment I am not clear on his motives in relation to this bill. I think it is interesting to dig down beneath it. As we on this side have said, secret ballots are common practice. We have members on this side who have recent experience of that process amongst workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ESo I would really like the member to explain in this title clause debate what is driving this legislation. If I were to suggest a new title for this bill in this debate, maybe it would be \u201CBill Looking for a Problem Bill\u201D, because at the moment I have not heard clearly articulated what the issue is. I can see the Chair looking at me graciously, expecting me to speak directly to clause 1, and that is why I will bring in, at this point, my ridiculous alternative titles\u2014if the Committee can bear with me. So there is one: \u201CBill Looking for a Problem Bill\u201D. I would also like to throw out the option of \u201CBill Reinforcing Old Prejudices Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EPerhaps the title should be \u201CContradictory Bill\u201D, because, ultimately, the member has tried to tell us that somehow this bill will improve the process. We are saying that secret ballots already occur; he is trying to require them by legislation. To me that seems slightly contradictory to the usual perspective that a member of National would take on such matters. If we can prove that it is happening generally, why would the member wish to entrench it unnecessarily into law and to create unnecessary red tape? National prides itself as being a bastion against red tape, yet when it comes to the union movement it seems to take a completely different view. Perhaps instead we could call the bill the \u201CI Didn\u2019t Wish to Explore Voluntary Codes Bill\u201D, because every other time I have seen the potential for regulation come in, the first thing that someone who looks at these things from the perspective of business would say is \u201CLet us do it as a voluntary code. Let us see whether we can bring it about through compromise, through a collective approach.\u201D Actually, that is what the unions do. They have their own democratic way of operating. They abide by their own written constitutions. That is how it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAgain, I ask any member of National to contribute to this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00221d003873d6a64f0bb3b61ed32b67ee52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d003873d6a64f0bb3b61ed32b67ee52\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, but I first have to reflect on the most outrageous comment that has been made in this House for a very long time, which came from the member Miss Mackey. She said in her first call that this bill is a complete and utter waste of time. That was from a member of the party that has spent 9 months filibustering on members\u2019 days on a bill it supports. That is an outrageous waste of taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014I think it has been mentioned that it is $453,000 an hour\u2014Wednesday after Wednesday after Wednesday this year. We have not had a single draw of a Labour member\u2019s bill from a ballot in 2011\u2014not one. Do members know why they do not care? It is because they do not have any ideas for a member\u2019s bill. The only Labour member\u2019s bill in the last ballot in November 2010 came from the Hon Darren Hughes. I do not know where that is, but there has not been a single Labour member\u2019s bill in the ballot in 2011. For Miss Mackey to accuse Tau Henare of wasting House time is completely outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI will go on to what Miss Darien Fenton said about people on this side of the House\u2014in fact, she has been misquoted. I do not believe she said there are no union delegates on this side of the House. She said there are no people on this side of the House who deal with unions. Well, I have news for that member: employers deal with unions every single day. She should not stand here and say that employers do not know what unions want, because unions make that very clear. Those employers that have good relations with their unions get to deal with them on a daily basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo why have the bill? Jacinda Ardern asked that very good question. This party and the member who introduced the bill, Tau Henare, believe in workers\u2019 rights. We do not believe in union rights and the choice of the unions to ride roughshod over their members at any will. Talk about being in a vortex. This is the first line of Labour\u2019s minority view: \u201CThe Labour Party is supportive of secret ballots for strike action, because it largely reflects current practice \u2026\u201D. But Labour does not want to entrench it in legislation. Is Labour the new neo-liberal party of New Zealand? ACT\u2019s demise has led to the new neo-liberal \u201CNo Need to Pass Legislation Party\u201D. But, hang on, if Labour was so keen on choice and flexibility, why would it have the Employment Relations Act in the first place? It is a fudge. It is opposition for opposition\u2019s sake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I have realised who has the greatest to fear from a secret ballot right now, not only in this House but in the whole country. It is the Leader of the Opposition, Phil Goff. What would happen if a secret ballot was allowed in the Labour Party caucus this week? I ask myself how many of those members would be prepared to stand up in their caucus when a ballot was called and say whether they support the Leader of the Opposition. It is the ultimate dilemma\u2014whether to support their leader when the time comes. It will not be long; there are 81 days to go. It will probably be on day 82, because nobody has the courage to stand and challenge the Leader of the Opposition. Nobody has said they will they do that. So what will these members do? Will they stand and support him? Then, if he loses, after his demise, what will that mean for their future? Are they not going to stand and support him? What if he passes muster? What if he wins the ballot? If anybody needs a secret ballot right now, it is the members on the other side of the Chamber. It is a complete paradox. They do not support this bill, but they do support secret ballots. Reconcile that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226a5675c43c254c87872faeb0d1e546bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a5675c43c254c87872faeb0d1e546bb\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to completely ignore\u2014completely ignore\u2014the previous speaker, Michael Woodhouse, because that is what his speech deserves, but I do want to pick up on the comments of the member responsible for the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, Tau Henare. I acknowledge that in response to a comment from one of my colleagues that Tau Henare was the worst union delegate secretary ever in the history of the country, he stood up and said that that was not true and that it was Fintan Patrick Walsh. That was the comparison he made for himself. That is what he told us. We have the \u201CBlack Prince\u201D, who I acknowledge was worse than Tau Henare as a union delegate secretary. He was the \u201CBlack Prince\u201D, who worked with the employers against the interests of workers in issues like the 1951 waterfront lockout. So to make that comparison rather underscores the comments made by my colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMr Henare also referred to bullying tactics, but he talked hardly at all about this bill, which I think rather underscores the futility of it. We have had people who have been union representatives and who have overseen ballot after ballot say to the Committee that it is the practice\u2014and I as a former union member can confirm\u2014that ballots are almost always held in secret. I contrast this bill with the previous bill, the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill, where the Government was not prepared to allow compulsion in respect of student union membership. But suddenly this following bill says that secret union ballots must be compulsory. What a contradiction in terms that is. That is the contrast there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMr Henare also made an extraordinary comment that many members of the National caucus have been union delegates. I found that to be an extraordinary comment, and I would like to see any member opposite stand up and confirm his comments. I wonder whether he was referring to people like David Carter, who perhaps represents the \u201CUnion of Multiple Farm Owners\u201D, or maybe to Wayne Mapp, who must represent the \u201CNorth Shore Workers Union\u201D, or maybe he could have been referring to Maurice Williamson, the well-known union delegate and representative for the \u201CPakuranga Geeks and Related Trades Union\u201D. That would be a union that I am sure would never want to see a compulsory ballot, because they would want to do it on their iPads. They would not want to have compulsory ballots; the \u201CPakuranga Geeks and Related Trades Union\u201D would want to have their votes taken by iPad, which is rather different from walking into a trades hall or a conference centre to give a vote. I wonder whether Tony Ryall\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f28ee0e4af4832b8928945641dec77\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244370c9d75394996a6c051c85c5719d5\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to the title of the bill, which relates to the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I say thank you to my colleague Moana Mackey for reminding me that we are debating the title of this particular bill. Following on from that, this bill is about trying to enforce what is already the practice in union ballots today, which is to have a secret ballot. The situation is not one where one size fits all. The point has been made in respect of a decision by shareholders to lock out workers that they should be given the same requirement. If we are to have equity across this issue, then surely this bill should extend to shareholders in a company. Where shareholders in a company have made a decision to lock out workers who have decided to take a strike because of the ballot they have taken\u2014almost certainly in secret\u2014then they should be compelled under the same legislation that Tau Henare has brought into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI find it absolutely extraordinary that we have this member\u2019s bill. It is clear that there has been an instruction to the National caucus to find a member\u2019s bill; it does not matter whether or not it is of no consequence at all. We have the Military Manoeuvres Act Repeal Bill, and we have this bill. These bills are an indication that the National caucus has been told to get a member\u2019s bill up. I will take the word of colleagues who have been in the union movement\u2014like Darien Fenton, like Lynne Pillay, like Carol Beaumont\u2014that the practice is there, but there has to be a choice for workers to make their decisions in respect of these ballots. We can see the potential for this bill to be used as a weapon against workers, not as a tool to protect their rights in the workplace. That would be very much in line with the anti-worker sentiment of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe487ffb8714b5bad5a2cf258f64d9e\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109443e6314b4ba081d3176b02228929\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the call to Sandra Goudie, but before I do so, I say that the Chair is desirous of having some debate on the title, which is actually what this debate is about. I just caution the Committee that we actually should be debating the title, and I would prefer that we do that. Then we can make some progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022938d1a798d074eabaa04db8fd371633e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022938d1a798d074eabaa04db8fd371633e\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b10111d87240d2a0695f4caec98b01\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorely tempted, but Darien Fenton assured me by sign language that she was going to speak on the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022fedf02ac63f948ee8ff4d199b0600f09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fedf02ac63f948ee8ff4d199b0600f09\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to talk about the title of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I want to go back over a couple of things, particularly in relation to Tau Henare\u2019s response and to the change in the title, where the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D has been removed. I make the point that the original title of the bill, the Employment Relations (Workers\u2019 Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, was put forward by the member himself, so I thought it was a bit ridiculous for him to come back and argue that it was removed and to say that we do not understand the Employment Relations Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat is really interesting is that if the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D had remained in the title, it would have included a whole group of workers who are now excluded as employees. Just so members are not confused, I say that I am referring to the recommendation from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee that the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D be removed because there is no reference in the Employment Relations Act to that word. A whole group of workers has now been excluded from the definition of \u201Cemployee\u201D under the Employment Relations Act. If the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D had remained in the title of this bill, they would be covered by it. Guess who I am talking about. Who am I talking about? I am talking about any person engaged in film production work as an actor, voice-over actor, stand-in, body double, stunt performer, extra, singer, musician, dancer, or entertainer, and any other person engaged in film production work. That whole group of workers, employees, or people had the right under the Employment Relations Act\u2014until National decided that they should not have the right\u2014to go to court to have the court determine that they could be employees under this Act. They were, in fact, workers. Because they are called workers and they are outside the Employment Relations Act, they actually have no rights\u2014no rights at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIt is quite perverse, in a way, when we think about it. This Employment Relations (Workers\u2019 Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, as it was called, actually applies to employees. That is the point that the select committee made. The Employment Relations Act applies only to people in the employee-employer relationship. So it is an interesting question, I think. Those workers in the film industry and video production industry have now been excluded from rights as employees\u2014well, I do not think they have the right to strike, but there is an argument that the Trade Unions Act 1908 still applies. The Trade Unions Act 1908 actually applies to workers. They have the right to form a union and they have the right to strike, and it cuts across the Companies Act, the Commerce Act, and other things. It says they are not allowed to collaborate, because they would be committing some kind of conspiracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think it is a very, very interesting title. I am still very interested in why the member in the chair said that \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D came out because it does not apply, when he put the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title in the first place. I have yet to hear from him why he did that and what he had in his mind. Did he have in his mind that a secret ballot for strikes should apply for all workers, not just employees? There is a huge difference under law. Was he implying by removing the word that workers who are outside the employment relationship under the Employment Relations Act should have the right to strike? Was he implying that? Is that what he had in mind when he included the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the title? I would be interested in his response to that, because we have asked a question about that. I think it is a very interesting topic, and I think it deserves a lot more exploring\u2014if not tonight, then we want to have other opportunities to talk about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe fact is that we now have an Employment Relations Act that applies to employees only. Many, many workers are now outside that relationship, and they have absolutely no rights at all. It is something I am quite passionate about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd96afc180e041269aa149a85148b899\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think National\u2019s thought about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e33e3c080cb4029900a37383ed2396c\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure, except that by taking employees who work in the film and video industry out of the Employment Relations Act, National made them into workers, and Tau Henare\u2019s bill, as it was originally titled, would have included workers. I think it is a very interesting question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI would still like to hear from the member in the chair about why he put the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D in the original title, and whether he agrees with the change that the select committee has made. He is right in saying that the word \u201CWorkers\u2019 \u201D does not appear in the Employment Relations Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00229cbd3204cf3e4e8a88102379aef051ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cbd3204cf3e4e8a88102379aef051ca\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262caaf7973ac4a22938239be021b4244\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9caf0a7881f46098b057d3edd75caee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e671ae705de946359cc644618cdcc08b\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002293f5382cacda4edea123e76da02a900d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293f5382cacda4edea123e76da02a900d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 2 is on the commencement, which is a reasonably precise and tight debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00227b3aa186b3b0491c91f45e811f75671e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b3aa186b3b0491c91f45e811f75671e\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think that the commencement date should be put out several years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba29f969dfcd4a35b6b630cab43b9b2e\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: For a century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf86d5b19504d6097c320d15e9b39e0\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think 10 years would probably be a good start. I say that because I think the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill itself offends basic rights. There was a discussion previously on the title, which unfortunately the Green Party did not get a call on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b74dae587094b688ab3d4d8e137bd4f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You weren\u2019t here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227453bef1e53a48fbba4de69a2aee7b43\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I was here. It is an unbalanced bill. It talks about workers\u2019 secret ballots for strikes, but it does not take into account the other side of the industrial equation\u2014that employers should also, if there is going to be a secret ballot, have a secret ballot, as is proposed in a further amendment that we will be discussing later, whereby shareholders should be balloted secretly before they lock out workers, because there is equality in the Employment Relations Act on strikes and lockouts in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think the commencement date should be put out for 10 years, because, if we look at the justice of it, we should ask why the State should control voluntary organisations. That is what this is about. In spite of National members talking about freedom and nanny State and all the rest of it\u2014all of the things they have talked about over the years\u2014this is the ultimate nanny State measure. The State is controlling such an intimate thing as how people in a voluntary organisation can decide collectively whether they should go on strike. That should not be the role of the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn fact, let us look at the practicalities of the situation. I have been in several situations where there have been strikes. Sometimes there have been secret ballots and that has been very good. Sometimes it has been impractical to have secret ballots. That is the situation and that is the way submissions went to the select committee. The Service and Food Workers Union and, I think, the Unite union, put across the idea that in some of the industries they organise, such as fast food outlets and whatnot, it is impractical to have a secret ballot, so it should not be in law. The Green Party completely opposes this provision being in law. It is impractical and will act against the interests of unions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, as was mentioned in some of the previous discussion, it will allow, because it is in statute law, employers to try to trip up workers all the time. Employers may say: \u201CWell, this person didn\u2019t get a note, and this worker didn\u2019t get a notice of the secret ballot.\u201D, because that worker might have shifted address or something. They may hold up the strike action of the union concerned until that is all sorted out in a court. Because the employers always have more money than unions, they can also bankrupt the unions by dragging them through repeated court proceedings about whether a strike ballot was properly implemented. This is highly prejudiced against one side of the industrial disputes\u2014that is, the workers. I think that putting the implementation of this bill out for 10 years would give us time to think about it. It would give time for members of this Parliament to go down to workplaces to talk to workers, go into fast food outlets, talk to the Unite union, talk to the Service and Food Workers Union, and talk to employers about whether they want to have an imposition on them of all their shareholders having a secret ballot before there is a lockout, as might be the case if Darien Fenton\u2019s amendment is passed in relation to clause 4. There is still water to go under the bridge and I think that 10 years\u2019 worth of water going under the bridge would be quite good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfaff0e12cc64dd8a2d9b531ab6cd4db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfaff0e12cc64dd8a2d9b531ab6cd4db\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I agree with the member Keith Locke. I think that the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Act should come into force some time far, far away from 1 year after the date on which it receives the Royal assent, which is what is currently in the bill. Perhaps 10 or 15 years after the date on which it receives the Royal assent might not be such a bad idea, because this is absolutely ridiculous legislation. But it is more than just ridiculous. The logic behind it\u2014as far as I can tell, and I use \u201Clogic\u201D in the broadest sense of the word\u2014is fundamentally flawed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that will put in place secret ballots for strikes\u2014only for strikes, I might add\u2014when, in fact, that is what generally occurs. This is based on some premise of a time past. I just thought I would elucidate to members opposite what a strike is, because we are talking about bringing into commencement in a year\u2019s time legislation that will require secret ballots for strikes. Now a strike can be a number of things. It is the \u201Cwalk out of the door\u201D scenario that people think of\u2014the full withdrawal of labour, but it is other things as well. It is also refusing or failing after any such discontinuance to resume or return to employment. It is about breaking employment agreements. It is about refusing or failing to accept engagement for work in which one is usually employed, and it is about reducing normal output or the normal rate of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI go into some depth on this word \u201Cstrike\u201D because it is not an easy thing to do. It has never been an easy thing for people to do. People think about it and make a decision to strike in very extreme circumstances\u2014usually when they are trying their level best to improve their wages and conditions of employment, and that has become tougher and tougher. As the economy has tightened up under a National-led Government, and when employers feel, perhaps, more emboldened to play a harder ball, if you like, it has become tougher for unions to negotiate collective agreements and get reasonable outcomes for workers. Striking is a last resort. It has always been a last resort to try to improve wages and conditions of employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThis legislation, which would come into force a year from receiving the Royal assent, as provided for in clause 2, the commencement clause, would require strike action\u2014and that is quite a broad thing, as I have just outlined\u2014to have a secret ballot before it could happen. And that secret ballot could be challenged by employers. Later on we will talk about that a little bit more, but many of us can see that this could provide grounds for litigation driven by employers trying to stop unions taking action to try to improve their wages and conditions of employment. So, again, that is another reason to push out the commencement date of this bill, because it will lead, potentially, to significant legal challenges by employers hell-bent on stopping workers improving their wages and conditions of employment through taking industrial action\u2014through taking strike action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ENow, of course, the other thing this bill does is that it focuses only on one side of the coin. Industrial action has two parts: strikes and lockouts. We can see that they are one part after the other in the Employment Relations Act: section 81 is around the meaning of strikes and section 82 is around the meaning of lockouts. But that is not affected by this bill, so the commencement would bring into force a regime that applies only to one part of the industrial relations landscape, not the other, which is the lockout. The lockout is effectively where employers take actions that stop workers doing their job and that also therefore impacts on these people\u2019s pockets. It means that they are not earning money. Certainly there have been some very, very ugly lockouts in this country\u2019s history and I am not talking just about the 1951 lockout, but, much more recently, the Progressive Enterprises lockout\u2014and that would not require any sort of ballot. It did not require any sort of ballot. A similar, very large-scale lockout like that, which put enormous pressure on to very low-paid workers, would not, under the provisions of this bill, require any form of ballot, any form of consultation, and the management of a company could just go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002201d77b525ff9436fad0c1843412d6b62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201d77b525ff9436fad0c1843412d6b62\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Keith Locke says that we should push the commencement date of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Act out 10 years, and Carol Beaumont says 15 years. I say let us push it out a century, because even in 100 years\u2019 time we will not have more than a handful of people complaining about the whole secret ballot thing. In fact, why do we not just push it out a millennium\u2014why do we not just push it out a thousand years, because in that time there will still be only a handful, if that, of people who actually feel the need for this bill other than Tau Henare and perhaps a few thousand of his descendants who will want to maintain Papa Tau\u2019s legacy of giving it to the workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EKeith Locke was right: this is about the National Government interfering in the intimate workings of a voluntary organisation. Now why on earth would it want to do that? And who is going to be next? Meals on Wheels\u2014\u201CSorry, you can\u2019t have cabbage on Tuesday, you\u2019ve got to have peas.\u201D This will be the National Government\u2019s next step in interfering in other voluntary organisations and what they do. After that, it will be Victim Support, after that it will be the Boy Scouts, and after that, who knows? The world is at Tau Henare\u2019s mercy when the Government is interfering with voluntary organisations around the world. It will be Volunteer Service Abroad next: \u201CSorry you can\u2019t go to Tonga for your voluntary service abroad. You will have to go to Kiribati.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis will be the start of something big for Tau Henare. Let us start with the unions. Let us interfere with the workings of that voluntary organisation. Let us deal to the unions, and then we can take on the rest of the voluntary organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIt is a nonsense bill. There is no need for this bill, as we have already outlined in the title clause debate. As well, there is an imbalance here. There is a lack of fairness. We want to know what it is about National members that they do not understand fairness. National\u2019s tax is not fair. It is tax cuts for the wealthy. Here is another thing that is not fair. Unions will have to have secret ballots, yet employers will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228124f6bc10c49d989e5b0f98123cb6b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adfe3d9c7faf4784a7a3196f7f020bac\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Commencement. Again, within 1,000 years of the commencement of this bill employers will not have to conduct secret ballots of their stakeholders when they want to lock out these horrible union workers. Not within 10 years, not within a decade, not within 15 years, not within a century, not within a millennium will employers have to do what Tau Henare wants the unions to have to do, and that is hold these secret ballots. For what reason? For what purpose? Oh, the bullying, he says. Well, there is a story about the pot and the kettle, and I am not sure which one Mr Henare wants to be, when it comes to bullying. His overbearing attitude is exactly what he is accusing unions of having.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc4e6dec65944f283cd104cf28031bf\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s wrong with a secret ballot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451404352bad474a877ae004f15a6de2\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: What is wrong with it? Fairness, I say to Mr Williamson. There is nothing fair about this, when we are expecting a voluntary organisation to have to have secret ballots, but National does not expect employers to hold secret ballots of their stakeholders when they want to lock out workers. It is the fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThere is a lack of fairness, and again, National does not understand fairness. Its tax cuts were for the wealthy. It was not fair that the wealthy received a $1,000 a week tax cut and the low-paid workers received something like 25c an hour in their tax cut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI feel it does not matter how far out we push the commencement date. It will not make a difference whether it is 1 year, as stated in the bill, or whether it is 10 years, 15 years, a century, or a millennium. It will not make a difference because there is not a problem. As Jacinda Ardern put it so eloquently, this is a bill looking for a problem. There is nothing here that will be remedied by commencing the bill at any stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00221cf70073ee1440a6a8a191bf0489e674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cf70073ee1440a6a8a191bf0489e674\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb135520e974465a6206bf0576bfb05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb135520e974465a6206bf0576bfb05\u0022\u003EKRIS FAAFOI (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson Roy, for giving me the opportunity to talk to the commencement clause of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. I feel like a bit of an auctioneer, because first we heard that the bill should come into effect in 10 years, then 15 years, and now we have heard 1,000 years\u2014sold to Mr Davis. This bill should not come into effect at all. It will take considerably longer than a year to figure out why this bill is here, at all, and to figure out the motivation for it and what positive effect it will have on any workers who are slogging their guts out and having this measure forced upon them. It will take a considerable amount of time\u2014more than just 1 year, which is provided for in clause 2, the commencement clause\u2014for us to sort out why this bill is here. Mr Davis talked about how on many occasions we have asked what the motivation for the bill is, what the problem is, and why this bill needs to be passed. It will take us considerably more than a year to figure out why, on the grounds of democracy, National thinks this bill needs to be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have no problem with secret ballots. They are widespread at the moment, and have been well used by unions to adjudicate whether a strike is to be called or effected. But there is some puzzlement on this side of the Chamber as to why the Government wants to make it compulsory for unions to have secret ballots for strikes to be called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EOn a number of levels it is impractical. Keith Locke in his contribution earlier talked about how difficult it would be in practical terms to organise a secret ballot for the likes of fast-food workers, such as people who might work at restaurants like McDonald\u2019s, which opened in Porirua in 1976. It is also impractical in terms of the longstanding history unions have already of making sure that these secret ballots happen, in order to give their members a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere were a number of submissions on this bill from the Employers and Manufacturers Association and also, if I remember correctly, from Business New Zealand. They wanted to impose an amendment to the bill to make sure that for the vote to strike to be successful, the threshold for the secret ballot would be 75 percent. Therein lies some of the motivation as to where the benefit from this bill would lie. In relation to the commencement, we will need a lot more than just 1 year to sort out why this bill is needed and how it will protect the rights of workers, as Mr Henare said when we were debating clause 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think it was also Mr Locke who commented on Mr Woodhouse\u2019s contribution, in which he said that he thought we should make secret ballots compulsory. I agree with Mr Locke that the bill is nanny State and it is controlling a voluntary organisation, and we should not have to do that, especially when at this stage, as far as we on this side of the Chamber are concerned, the unions that use secret ballots are using them quite effectively and fairly. So again, we ask why this bill needs to be passed. Again, we will need a lot more than just 1 year from the bill receiving the Royal assent to figure out why this bill is here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis bill, in essence, will enforce compulsory secret ballots on unions when calling a strike. There has already been some talk about this bill changing the very nature of the definition of a strike. A strike will not be able to be called unless a secret ballot is taken, and that fundamentally changes the rights of workers in terms of their ability to take industrial action. If a ballot is not taken but strike action is called, then a union could be tied up in lots of red tape and, potentially, big legal bills, because their action could be deemed illegal. That is one of the serious dangers contained in this bill and, again, that is why we will need something like 1,000 years, I say to Mr Davis, to sort out why this bill has come before the House. The commencement of this bill should not be as stated in the bill at the moment. One year is simply not enough time for us to sort out this mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe have had problems with the title. Mr Henare has not admitted to the fact that he botched up the title, and included workers in the title when they are not included in the primary legislation. But, again, the commencement of this bill should not be 1 year following its receiving the Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b758f22f81d04053a462a305b1a60ffa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b758f22f81d04053a462a305b1a60ffa\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e77322e56a940f6962e72ab50b7ee3e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000710\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 195 in the name of the Hon Tau Henare to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d99d42c483940d8a4eff985ecdebe1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c0d09c56fd8c405d939c3b2ecd9b5ff6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1; Mana 1; Independent: Carter C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d7c2ac5e4a64778a65dae946b77cec9\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act amended\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022f56eac9376714e2cacf3b91f754cc746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f56eac9376714e2cacf3b91f754cc746\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I was really looking forward to taking a call on the previous clause of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill, but I will make do with this one. I think it is worth discussing exactly what we are amending, under clause 3, of the principal Act\u2014that is, the Employment Relations Act. We are amending quite a significant part of the rights of employees under the Employment Relations Act. It sounds really simple and easy to say that there should be a secret ballot for strikes and we should put it in this amendment. We might ask who has a problem with it as it is about democracy, and so on, but I do not think that members opposite understand what this will involve, and the change and red tape and all sorts of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6c088f66694269a586cbb786b43acf\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a6ec5177464b10af4a75468e76704f\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Compliance\u2014absolutely. The Hon Tau Henare did not speak on his Supplementary Order Paper 195, but it amended clause 2 and it goes on to make some other amendments. This bill will require unions to amend their rules because the principal Act, the Employment Relations Act, is being amended. Unions have to be registered under section 14 of the Employment Relations Act. They have to be registered as unions. There is a whole provision in the Act that says when they are entitled to be registered as unions. There are a whole lot of rules about them having to be democratic, not unreasonable, not unfairly discriminatory, not contrary to law, and, interestingly, independent and at arm\u2019s length from employers. Yet here we have a provision to amend the principal Act that will allow employers to interfere in the democratic processes of unions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EUnions will have to change their rules. Because it has been a while since the member in the chair, Tau Henare, has been involved in unions, I do not think he understands the requirements of the Incorporated Societies Act and the provisions in the Employment Relations Act as to the requirements a union has to meet in order to change its rules. Unions have to get their members to approve those changes. For the union that I come from, the Service and Food Workers Union, it would involve something like 50 stopwork meetings throughout the country. That means arranging with employers for workers to be released, and that is not always easy. It is a cost on employers. It also means getting the workers to the meetings so that they are able to vote on the changes to the rules that this bill will require. This bill will require that unions change their rules so that there is a provision, as set out in Supplementary Order Paper 195, relating to the process for holding a secret ballot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think that unions could live with that. Certainly, I will have an amendment a bit later on that proposes that that is all this bill does. All this bill needs to do is amend the Employment Relations Act so that unions have to have in their rules a provision for holding secret ballots. Then the unions themselves, with their members, can decide in a democratic way what the process is. That is what all of the international conventions around freedom of association, and the whole tenor and support for freedom of association and collective bargaining under the Employment Relations Act, are about. It is about unions being independent of employers. It is about them being able to run their own business, just as employers\u2019 organisations are able to. This bill will not require employer organisations or shareholders to amend their rules and go through the process that unions will be required to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think that when we talk about amending the principal Act everyone needs to understand what is being asked. We are imposing a whole lot of red tape not only on unions but also on employers. Employers will be affected by this because unions will have to go through a process of changing their rules, and in order for them to do that employers will have to comply. Employers will have to cooperate or the rules will not be able to be changed, and then over a period of time those unions will be in breach of the amended Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe oppose the bill for a whole lot of other reasons that we will get into a bit later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022018025866e5a433e985cdab11d491bf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018025866e5a433e985cdab11d491bf6\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a quick call on this particular clause, because it is at the heart of the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill in terms of the principal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7129afdcda2445ab5761d6dfbd05290\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure Jo wants you to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ffb33e6b9d414ebd8b2f04cf62b56a\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: It is members\u2019 day; that is why they call it such. I will just touch on what this particular clause is not. It was raised by Mr Burns in his call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6b522bf8774198b061b52aee0a2090\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He gets a bit of a promotion and it goes straight to his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908b52ef66fc4ffda987d722cfec5572\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, those members are nice to talk about it like that, are they not? It is just a list, guys. They should relax, unless they are in that member\u2019s situation. In that case the member is a little less relaxed, would he not say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThis is what this clause is not about: it is not about compulsion, as Brendon Burns would have us believe. Indeed, he compared this with the voluntary student membership legislation. He said that somehow this legislation was about compulsion and that the voluntary student membership legislation was about choice, so we must be inconsistent. Well, I challenge that notion, because this bill is not about compulsion. Even the Labour members on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee said this bill is about choice. They said it in their minority report, in which they said that \u201Cin New Zealand, union membership is voluntary and unions should be free to run their organisations according to the rules\u201D that the members democratically put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI will tell members what Labour members did not say, but what one of the unions came in and said. I cannot remember exactly which union it was, and I will not guess in case I get it wrong. The member in the chair, the Hon Tau Henare, may remember. When questioned about what would happen to a union member faced with a ballot that would not be secret, and about what choices that union member had in that situation, here is what that union said: \u201CThey\u2019re free to resign. They can just go.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe reason this is relevant is that this bill is exactly about protection. It is not about compulsion, and that is what the principal Act says. It says that the Employment Relations Act is \u201Cacknowledging and addressing\u201D\u2014these are Labour words, but in just this situation I agree with them\u2014\u201Cthe inherent inequality of power in employment relationships;\u201D. I suggest that that inequality of power exists between unions and union members. It is exercised fairly in many cases, but I am sure that members on both sides of the Chamber have a number of examples of when union power was inappropriately used to muscle people into strike action against their judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe member Tau Henare should be congratulated on bringing this bill to the House, because the inappropriate use of power happens altogether too often. [Interruption] There those members go\u2014up. The halo on unions cannot be nudged. Well, I suggest that this bill is exactly what is needed in order to bring to the use of a secret ballot the very few, and not the very many, who use that power inappropriately. I strongly support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002228e81ecee60947b6bd7f030d6e38a3c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228e81ecee60947b6bd7f030d6e38a3c5\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I will refer back just to what Michael Woodhouse was saying. I think one of the key things that he is missing about the Employment Relations Act 2000, which is the principal Act being amended by the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill put forward by Tau Henare, is that the whole principle behind the Employment Relations Act 2000 is one of good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think National has always\u2014has always\u2014struggled to come to terms with what \u201Cgood faith\u201D actually means, and one of the things that the bill does is to undermine that notion. It says that unions cannot be trusted. That is one of the key messages that regularly comes out of the National Government when it comes to dealing with unions\u2014that the unions cannot be trusted\u2014and that, therefore, the good-faith provisions do not mean anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWell, I think that the good-faith provisions do mean something and when it comes to dealing with secret ballots, I think that the unions, by and large, act in a way that exhibits good faith. They act in a manner that is transparent, they act in a manner that is accountable, and I think that there is absolutely no need for the bill whatsoever. In fact, questions will be raised later in the debate about whether the bill goes wide enough, and why, if we are to insist on this provision of secret ballots, employers should not have to have a secret ballot of their shareholders, for example. That is something we will canvass later on in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EUltimately, in a good-faith environment, the bill is totally unnecessary. In an environment where there is goodwill and good faith between employers and employees the bill is unnecessary and it undermines that. It undermines the central principle behind the Employment Relations Act 2000. Were the bill necessary and to be effective, one of the things it would do, for example, is guarantee unions the right to access in the workplace, so that they could conduct the secret ballot. Under the bill, where secret ballots are required, there is no guarantee that unions will in fact have access to the workplace. Oh, goodness me! I think we have just stepped off the reservation now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI would really like the member in the chair, Sandra Goudie, to take a call and espouse what in her mind are the central principles behind the Employment Relations Act 2000, the principal Act that the bill amends. I think that members all around the Chamber\u2014in fact, people all over the country\u2014would love to hear Sandra Goudie\u2019s opinions on the Employment Relations Act 2000. We know that Sandra Goudie embodies the views of the National Party when it comes to workers\u2019 rights. She is absolutely dedicated to the National Party cause. I would like her to take the next call and explain to us why she believes that the bill furthers the principles of the Employment Relations Act 2000. I will happily go and get her a copy of the Employment Relations Act 2000 if she\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478dafc2fd7a421db61144b8015d5465\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That might be necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf0b0100a5d4785a5f3d77712f95661\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think it would require more than a copy of the Employment Relations Act 2000, actually, to get Sandra Goudie to produce something coherent. It would require an act of divine intervention to get a coherent call from Sandra Goudie, but we live in hope. We are optimists on this side of the House, and in fact I can see that Sandra Goudie has a copy of the bill. She is prepping up there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de054a7e52784a8cb0b4efb70939a13c\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022274230d8ab404e67ab6e420e30f3b7c0\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a start. There is always hope. I would very much like to hear what Sandra Goudie has to say on this. If it is as lively as the contribution we had from the member in charge of the bill, Tau Henare, earlier on, it will be a sight to see. We would very much like to hear what members opposite have to say about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat we know is that the bill is the first of many amendments to the principal Act that will be coming if National is re-elected. Of course, those members will not tell anybody what those amendments will be. It will be just one of those things. John Key has gone out there and said: \u201COh well, we want to make more changes. If we are re-elected, we will make more changes.\u201D He will not say what they are, but what National will do is turn round after the election and say: \u201CWe have a mandate now. We have been re-elected. We said before the election that we would change it.\u201D Therefore\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c905f334ce64c5ea4c362317ccc5746\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No more kicking the tyres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501523da09cf477c9cb4bd67f1c3ace8\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: They have kicked the tyres. Therefore, they will make all of these extra changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000. This is the first of many. I am absolutely devastated that Sandra Goudie is leaving the chair and will not have the opportunity to contribute, although she could still take a call from her seat up on the backbenches and espouse to us why she believes that these changes to the principal Act, the Employment Relations Act 2000, are necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a84a7b668442bcb0202380bfb7e6bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a84a7b668442bcb0202380bfb7e6bd\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The first thing I would like to do is commend Tau Henare for bringing the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill to the Committee. In speaking to clause 3, I say that the fantastic advantage of this amendment is that we further enhance protection for workers. Yes! That is absolutely critical. I think this is a brilliant member\u2019s bill. Tau Henare should be congratulated. I know that workers will appreciate the fact that we are looking after their interests, and further enhancing their protection, by way of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022497b4295332645e093fc6aee1a32546c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022497b4295332645e093fc6aee1a32546c\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E A previous National speaker spoke about unions versus union members, which struck me as rather odd, because union members are the unions. They make up the unions. There are, of course, elected officials in unions. Perhaps the member was going to talk about union officials versus the members. But union officials are always elected by secret ballot. If any union official starts to kick the union members around, force them to go on strike, and beat down anyone who votes against a strike or anything like that, that union official would not last very long, particularly at the next secret ballot election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the actual process in the workplace of deciding on a strike, we see the secret ballot is not primarily a protection against union members being pushed around by union officials but is a protection against union members being pushed around by their employers. Anyone who has been in a workplace knows that the fear of supporting a strike amongst workers is a fear about what their employer might think about their decision to vote to go on strike, not a fear of what union officials might think about whether they are voting for or against the proposal. Because there is usually a democratic atmosphere in the union, which the workers insist on, the officials accept people voting for and against a strike. But the employer gets rather upset, and makes that quite known to the workers, if they vote to go on strike. When the workers go back from the union meeting to the shop floor or whatever it might be, often the person who is in charge\u2014the supervisor or somebody\u2014will ask them about the meeting, how they voted, and all the rest of it. So the secret ballot is actually a protection of the workers against harassment from their supervisors and employers, not from union officials. That is a practicality of the workplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI support the amendments to the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill that are being put forward by Darien Fenton, although I am a little questioning of one provision that would require a secret ballot in every case of a strike, because, as I indicated in my first speech, sometimes that is impractical. That should be a rare exception, and in any big workplace, normal workplace, Public Service workplace, or whatever, a secret ballot is certainly practical and should be pretty universal\u2014although I am not sure whether that universality should be prescribed in law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is another question relating to rules, and this is where the issue comes back to a provision in the Employment Relations Act. That Act is supposed to govern the relations between workers and unions, and employers organised in some form as employers. It is not supposed to be an Act to determine exactly how all employers will conduct their business, or how all unions will conduct their business. That is not the nature of that Act; it concerns the relations between two self-determining parties. This bill tries to say one of those parties is no longer self-determining, and it will prescribe exactly how that party is to function. Once we do that, we disrupt the balance between the unions on one side, and the employers on the other. We will give the employers the right, through pressure on the State or judicial process, to then say the other party, the union, is not abiding by this or that provision in terms of the conduct of the secret ballot. Someone can say that they have proof that so-and-so at 36 Lewis Street, Wadestown, or wherever it is, did not get a ballot paper in the mail and was not able to participate in the election, so therefore that ballot on a strike is illegal, and da-de-da-de-da. That just causes huge frustration amongst the workers concerned, who may have perhaps voted by 95 percent for some sort of strike action, but are hampered by the State getting involved in their union\u2019s internal affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8b76dbc2d4249528285ad336893ae63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8b76dbc2d4249528285ad336893ae63\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to what Chris Hipkins said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755113d155274901b08aba55a267f0d8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227283c6e3563346a8a1b7d7a56ce102b0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014Hipkins\u2014about the good-faith provisions in the parent Act, the Employment Relations Act. As far as I am concerned, good faith is nothing more than a Fabian notion of \u201Cwe will tell you what to do.\u201D\u2014the lumpenproletariat. \u201CWe know best and we will tell you what to do, when and where, and we will tell you how to do it.\u201D That is my little spiel on the good-faith provisions in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut here is something for Keith Locke to think about. What he should do is put away Nicky Hager\u2019s book, stop reading it, and stop thinking that there is a conspiracy around every corner. There might be something around every corner, but it is not a conspiracy. It is not a conspiracy. Look, Keith Locke is a nice man. Keith Locke is one of New Zealand\u2019s genuine nice men\u2014I want to put that out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut\u2014but\u2014unions and workers are two different things. In my experience\u2014and I know I have been referred to as the worst union organiser ever, and blah de blah. In fact, we have spent 2 hours listening to personal attacks on me and my career. But that is OK, because every member from that side of the Chamber has mentioned my name, and that is all right. The good people of Te Atat\u016B are hearing that, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EUnions are organisations. Union officials are nothing more than people who grab subs from their union members and give them to the Labour Party\u2014and give them to the Labour Party. Here is something I ask Keith Locke and anybody else who wants to butt in with their beautiful pearls of wisdom: how many workers are ever asked whether they mind their union taking $2 a week off them so that it can give $1 out of that $2 to the Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2ca99ed9ac4856a5e3e3dd1845ca90\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ed717c621246549fc43f7e6edb8a46\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it is not true! It is not true! That is what Darien Fenton says. That is what Carol Beaumont says\u2014that it is not true. Well, how is it that the Service and Food Workers Union can give 200K to the Labour Party for the election? Where does that money come from? That is $200,000-odd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a363feb4aa4ee28ac878e347a63baf\u0022\u003EKris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your money coming from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e330565f580143ffbc9ce4859bbac800\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I know where my money comes from. In fact, in Te Atat\u016B it comes from the hard-working people who belong to the National Party. They want to give me five bucks or $10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512d19820b32478dacfb163d2c99a5e3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: He hasn\u2019t got any volunteers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98896552c5b469e8d856fcb2cf209e1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, let us see. I saw this fella have a meeting the other night. His kaupapa was the busway out in Te Atat\u016B. Who did he have at his meeting? Eleven people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut I digress. One of them was one of my members! But I digress; I do not want to go there. The fact of the matter is that everybody needs insurance, whether or not we have an earthquake, and whether or not we have stand-over tactics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill without amendment and progress on the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f8e0e55e9314e53bc2df830536d5e54\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221411b22e94d4bb1ae48b6557e7946ef\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00225b43115ff33240a89a75bad0f447e0fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b43115ff33240a89a75bad0f447e0fe\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct a figure I gave earlier today in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226783f9894b534ba8b74effe90a9931e2\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6faf00e69204ae0a31871749a74249e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: My officials gave me the figure of $25.9 million for funding the Growing Up in New Zealand longitudinal study. They have since informed me of their mistake. The total funding figure should have been $23.3 million and I would like to correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2011090794eb84e93f0c4347b29b1c453b2227aa000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"