"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227664a74c7c414b2fa764d3b007735d4a\u0022\u003EThursday, 8 September 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f9105746831432f92655989e9c93c9c\u0022\u003EThursday, 8 September 2011\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222837d53941a5457a9d0102b633595a61\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b84f01bd49f4d6f9a13d83024d965b9\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022896fc8448031438fade5377721a2d807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022896fc8448031438fade5377721a2d807\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House): \u003C/span\u003EWhen the House resumes on Tuesday, 13 September the Government intends to move the first readings of the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Bill, the Natural Health Products Bill, and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. The Government also intends to move the second reading of the Alcohol Reform Bill, as well as make further progress on other bills on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc7b992abd64d4494bbb036020b9a20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc7b992abd64d4494bbb036020b9a20\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Is it the intention of the Minister of Justice to move on the Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill; if so, can he give the House an assurance that the Minister of Justice has not promised any post-election consideration to any member of ACT for voting for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce1fa0ef3bf74fbabf7ece59c47c1ee5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce1fa0ef3bf74fbabf7ece59c47c1ee5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Acting Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Justice is beavering away to ensure progress can be made on that legislation. As the member knows, he is a pragmatic Minister who will find a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022910c78b450634882a7184d2c0170487a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002214e5f5ea6551481fab404d0029a3c5d4\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de2e78aae4364e778621fe2d34d51102\u0022\u003EChild Poverty\u2014Estimated Cost Per Year\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00223d9d2072c9a041b193a4f7b3539244f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d9d2072c9a041b193a4f7b3539244f1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her answers to Oral Question No 2 on 7 September 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022e13124269a1d4a90b61edd886505ff96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e13124269a1d4a90b61edd886505ff96\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. However, the House might note that I did correct one figure late last night. But I particularly stand by my statement: \u201CWe had a huge hole in funding that we had to find millions of dollars to fill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba9f1510298646e887ed2eab89af7d03\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her answer yesterday that there is no official measure of child poverty in New Zealand, so therefore she could not comment on the accuracy of figures arising from various reports, has she considered using the Child Poverty Action Group figures; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211348287aff743a8bf3c7c8cac94aad0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It takes its information from Statistics New Zealand and also from the household income survey via the Ministry of Social Development, so it is not where it is getting the information from, it is how it is analysing it. I think that some will find merits in it, but some will also find holes in that study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d290220a1fab4793bbc554555876cc0d\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If the Child Poverty Action Group figures are not acceptable to the National Government, why were they acceptable and used by the current Minister of Finance when in Opposition as the measure for child poverty in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b21662468f8425b938fb6c621838019\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think the difference between members on that side of the House and this side is that we are actually getting on with solutions, putting money into those children, and making sure that they get the kinds of services they need. We are not debating whether there is a problem; I think the debate is how we fix it. We are working on solutions, not measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda2d0eefb214026ac938bc7ee5475f9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a relatively straightforward question as to why figures that were acceptable for use by a member before he was a Minister are now no longer acceptable to the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf17ed84e18245e7996c2726c3717c96\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has just answered his own query in his point of order. The Minister has no responsibility for anything that the Hon Bill English may have said while he was a member of the Opposition. The Minister has no responsibility for that whatsoever. That is the risk of that kind of question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369e7c7426614fa89ba8a0f5706f9bed\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government is addressing child poverty as she claims, and is putting \u201Cmillions and millions of dollars into those children\u201D, how is she measuring the effectiveness of the expenditure and how are the programmes being evaluated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6609b042b4545a48cad49cb44f5b941\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. In many different ways, to be quite frank. Some of it is based on outcomes, and some of it is based on the number of visits by, for example, Family Start, and how it is dealing with those. They are being evaluated, as such, through studies on that. The Centre for Social Research and Evaluation is doing a whole lot of the research on those sorts of programmes. There are other organisations that are also doing that themselves. But I am the first to admit, as I did yesterday, that a whole lot of evaluating did not happen, particularly in the years when that member was in Government. We are trying to fill a hole there so that we can fix it and know exactly what is working and what should be funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa3b8239e004c6c9dc530ab65daaf20\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell the House yesterday that she did not have all the facts about the Growing Up in New Zealand longitudinal study because the question had not been set down as a primary question, but she managed to tell reporters on the way into the House how much money was being spent, and that she had told the university to seek funding from philanthropic sources to continue their work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e9071bff8347a1aa6aea4a25c0e60b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I did not have the figure that the member was seeking yesterday in front of me, and as such I was open about that. In relation to the slight error that we made on one of the figures, I came back in and corrected that. If the member would like to explore it further, then let us go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cef6c11ce14ef299d209da6e90429a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have the information today? Will the Ministry of Social Development cease funding the Growing Up in New Zealand longitudinal study, as has been reported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982ddde03687452a97a80db7ca9cee50\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: What we have here is a study that was launched in 2008 by Labour. It was not actually fully funded. It was not fully funded in the years when it was launched, let alone in the following-up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222971eb3ffc644c2eb828a9d2a566e0d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This question was a very straightforward question, and I believe that when straightforward questions are asked the House deserves to be treated with a little more respect than that. The question was very simple. It asked whether the Ministry of Social Development would be continuing to fund this particular study, or whether it would not be, as had been reported. There was no attack on the Minister or anything like that. The question just asked whether the funding would be continued. No decision may have been made yet\u2014who knows? It is OK to talk a little bit about the history, so long as we do get an answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7a28d544b24b6da9f5cac1c78d1546\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: In actual fact no funding decisions have been made for the 2012 Budget. What I will say is that the university fund that Labour launched has a shortfall of $97 million over the next 25 years. I am sure that Labour members might like to go out and promise that sort of funding, but members on this side of the House will be taking it as it comes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4c4d60faf4450bb8f6ff494b9d9e0f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What knowledge does she have of longitudinal studies, particularly this one, which she called some kind of a study yesterday, and why is she demanding they show the merits of their work 2 years into a study that has to last many years before we get the results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b87930c4b2f741c29bbb716e02d49f9d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Let us deal with the actual facts of the situation. Labour launched the study in 2008 with much fanfare, and without any idea or plan on how it would fund it. That longitudinal study will cost at least $113 million over the next 25 years, and that is not funded. Labour had no idea how it was going to be funded. This side of the House has been trying to fund some of that shortfall and has put in $9.5 million to date since it has been in Government. We will take it from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959b595d83b340bea1a8bffd7847d0bd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that shows that the Labour Government funded this programme for the first 2 years\u2014the first two Budgets that were presented by Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e530bc6fa8a345ccb1bd04a6dad665e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member indicate the document\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e75ab2f4dc40ec8bb2974b50ce6f06\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, our Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226436805868dc47de8da39833cb58fd4f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we do not table Budget documents in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342b24a6898340b1bf871862a27a480e\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s financial ledger that shows the longitudinal study reconciliation for Growing Up in New Zealand and the actual funding that has gone into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d06189b7c042bdb31dcb833bc2087b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4e4e26a5014ecd947d4aad5b168737\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. You have listened to answers from the Minister over the last 2 days on this study where she has claimed that the previous Government did not put money in the Budget for this at all. In fact, she has said that she had to go cap in hand to Ministers soon after she became the Minister to get the money. We have tried today to table our Budget documents that show that that is incorrect. I believe we ought to have the opportunity to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224265b461d52841d398707f6b5fd12cfe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the member\u2019s point. I can understand the point of grievance, but I believe perhaps we are in debating territory here. And this is why we do not table documents to make points; we table documents to provide information to the House, and it already has the Budget information. I would be surprised if the Minister had said there was no budget for this study. I do not believe she said that. What I understand the Minister said, as I understand the answers given, is that after a certain point there was no funding for a longitudinal study. Longitudinal studies obviously go on for quite a while and that was something that troubled her. Obviously, the member can follow that up and if the Minister said there was never any budget for it, that is very good material for a question in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afba499e16d6461d87dfbde9a81ecd24\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask you, when you have a moment, to relook at the tape of the replies the Minister gave to these questions yesterday where she said exactly what I have just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4dc2d2b29374277aed1e95568652781\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to do that, but the point I make to the member is that if in fact she believes that the Minister has given an incorrect answer, then to question the Minister with a primary question along those lines will certainly flush that out. A primary question is an issue of some formality and if the Minister does not make the position absolutely clear and correct following a primary question, the Minister would then be in some difficulty. Rather than trying to score political points, question time is a chance to really test whether a Minister has given accurate information, and that is an excellent opportunity to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adba1a8f8bc3403ab971ad468013c3ee\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document I would not normally table, to be quite frank. It has been prepared by my office and it gives the time line for funding of Growing Up in New Zealand, which might actually clarify some of those things that the Opposition members are talking about. What they would discover is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e641b7dafa5f4ade87f3b5114a4dd346\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member described the document and cannot go on to make argument from it. The member is seeking leave to table a document prepared by her office on the time line of the funding of Growing Up in New Zealand. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048a664ca83a44779acb108b58bf586f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When she told the House that within weeks of getting the job \u201CI was informed that we had to find money to keep the study going. I had to go to my colleagues, cap in hand,\u201D was she cognisant of the fact that the Labour Government in 2008-09 had funded the 2009-10 and 2010-11 years, so in fact had funded it 3 years out from the Budget and she did not need to go urgently cap in hand at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a300d669de04f5789542f0b33237e6f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is a shame that the member did not let me table the document, because it would have explained this quite well. But let us get clear on this. Yes, Labour had put in some money, which was actually $5.8 million in April 2008\u2014[Interruption]\u2014do not clap yet, guys, because members have not quite got the full story\u2014and then it put some in the Budget for the years 2009-10 and 2010-11, and it was nowhere near enough. Within weeks of getting into this job, I was told that there was a $10 million shortfall in funding. There had been no funding plan by the previous Government for a study that it had launched. I have found $9.5 million in the last 2 years to prop up a Labour study that it had initiated without funding it as it went forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502277a5bdb84f708a0339968e6b170f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: When she said in answer to the last supplementary question that there was not enough put in for those 2 years, did she put more in for those 2 years, or are her Budget figures, which show that she put in not another cent for those years, accurate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d62ae59f0a643bf9f271d4127a90998\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to look at the document that I have tabled, which shows how much we did put in. Let us be quite clear: Labour had put in money, $4.75 million and $3.1 million, over those 2 years; National actually put in more. Just because there is not a Budget line in with this actual money, it does not mean that it does not come through the policy advice appropriation. [Interruption] The member knows that; she was a Minister at some stage. But because there is not, one will see in the financial ledger how much money was put in. This National Government has put in over $9.5 million in the last 2 years. I stand by that. I would absolutely guarantee it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6349d00df440f29878adcc8bb80466\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is she therefore saying that in the 2009-10 Budget and 2010-11 Budget, the Minister of Finance tabled documents signed off by her as to the amount of spending on the longitudinal study that were inaccurate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35f90009a174c2eaa0e006fc71c96e7\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No. Actually, Labour has got it wrong in this case. Yes, Labour put in some money. It put in nowhere near enough to actually cover what had to happen for that longitudinal study. I have gone to my members, who have fronted up with some, and I think that that is where they will see it land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5699ea9f0674dd3b399daa633737616\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she not\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc250d27ec34be9bb62066b55e0b2a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da451ac3550431792c0bb0c157224da\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she not, when she got the extra money for this longitudinal study, show it in the two Budgets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0b912c06a964894b44c873f652730ea\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member was once a Minister. He should know that line items change in the Budget. I have absolutely presented documents that prove that that money was paid out to the longitudinal study. The university itself in a press release yesterday said that it had $25.9 million, and it has been $23.3 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284eafbcd29c546ea9743fb7b88cbf28e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Not all from MSD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231920527ffa84b87aadb531375fc8320\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Of that, $13.8 million was from Labour\u2019s appropriations and $9.5 million was from National, as we brought forward. Not all of that $9.5 million was from the Ministry of Social Development, but I can guarantee it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d71a4f704e18412c88dac843aadd8252\u0022\u003ERegulatory Reform\u2014Compliance Costs for Businesses and Consumers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022 data-id=\u002273d3838a85a4405aa96583e1f063d13a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273d3838a85a4405aa96583e1f063d13a\u0022\u003ETIM MACINDOE (National\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on the Government\u2019s progress in cutting red tape and reducing compliance costs for businesses and consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022598015b9d3af4791a808fcc4badd81d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022598015b9d3af4791a808fcc4badd81d4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It was very important for the Government to make progress in cutting red tape and reducing compliance costs, because they had got completely out of hand under the previous Labour Government. The Ministry of Economic Development issued its first report measuring the Government\u2019s progress since 2008, which estimates that the Government is on track to reduce compliance costs by around $250 million. This will be partly offset by an estimated $50 million of new costs, relating mainly to strengthened rules for financial advisers, anti - money-laundering measures, and farm animal identification and tracing. So we are making some progress. We have a great deal more to make, and I acknowledge the significant contribution of the Minister for Regulatory Reform, Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e8f34277b4343f187514a7c17810bba\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important to reduce red tape and improve the quality of regulation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252317cb3b3ba4d34a2b46ffd94f4c7b3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: One reason it is important is that New Zealand has run a real-life experiment from about 2004 onwards in what happens in an economy when poor quality regulation and red tape is allowed to get out of control. It strangled the country\u2019s export sector and helped to drive the economy into a speculative bubble, which has leg-roped our opportunity to make more economic progress now. Good quality regulation improves the lives of citizens, encourages investment, helps to create more jobs, and lifts incomes. We have a great deal more to do in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254856862f3bc40d2bdca0091f5bc23a5\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Government taken to reduce compliance costs and improve regulation for businesses and consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c6a680f640439b9abe0977a0980595\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we could go through a list of the huge efforts we have had to make to untangle the mess left by the last Government, but there are a number of examples of positive measures the Government has been able to take. We have streamlined resource management regulations, abolished gift duty, eased financial reporting requirements for small businesses, and reduced air passenger waiting times at customs by introducing the SmartGate passport control. These are just some of the measures designed to free up time for business and the public and allow them to get on with their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fdf57115c624fc3adc9c22584ba219a\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: What further plans does the Government have to improve regulation and cut red tape?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a8bcc2d2cd411396818bcf3b3c845a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Probably the most important but unglamorous part of the plan has been to change the culture of reflex regulation that had built up within Government departments over the last 10 years, when they had got into the habit of thinking that every problem had to be fixed with a new regulation. We have encouraged them to plan their regulations each year, to sort out which ones are prioritised to encourage economic growth, and to drop those that are unimportant. But there is much more to do. The Government has specific changes under way to the Building Act, the Resource Management Act, and the Securities Act, and we intend to publish progress reports annually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fa5504b2b24b28b24396bfd71767b4\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the lack of proper regulations, also known as red tape, has made New Zealand an easy target for overseas criminals using the company registration process to set up bogus companies to facilitate money-laundering, tax evasion, and fraud internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220879228ffeaf42a5a93831a634475d34\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I understand there has been some concern in that respect, and there have been measures taken recently that we are yet to legislate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc776c6b7474486da1cf5c012a40632a\u0022\u003EHon Simon Power\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019ll be a bill before the House lifts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8d91bca84c471b8c9408315f99caa4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There is a bill coming before the House to deal with some of those issues. The Government has spent quite a bit of time in getting international anti - money-laundering requirements into place, and that will also help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b5a49b1af0a4e6c9f00ac925a297716\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: How long will it be before the Government introduces regulations, also known as red tape, to introduce new law to close these loopholes in the company registration process and stop the damage being done to our reputation as a good place to do business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343660a3b1db4b8b8294f86e17d4d097\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the legislation will be introduced before the House rises for the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022387d4398750e4cc8b4b5207b2583a515\u0022\u003EConservation, Department\u2014Minister\u2019s Support of Vision Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022484a975e90fe4d2d81d8a539ea35a7dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022484a975e90fe4d2d81d8a539ea35a7dd\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does she support the vision statement of the Department of Conservation which states \u201CConservation work is an investment in New Zealand\u2019s prosperity because our environment plays a central role in our health and well-being, and wealth\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022c78115d7d8b24526ac1c7e123c0326ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c78115d7d8b24526ac1c7e123c0326ba\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely. In these tough economic times we are all tightening our belts a little, and although the shape of restructuring is largely an operational matter, I am pleased to see that the Department of Conservation is confident that it can continue to deliver its core conservation work, and that front-line staff and services will be retained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b13d8865a3fb4ad49b061e482e7f9408\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How will the loss of incomes, expertise, and the community contribution of Department of Conservation staff sacked from their Whanganui and New Plymouth offices contribute to the well-being of the staff, their families, and their region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b70991d5cdf4e6b832f78c869ed961f\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is never an easy task when people lose their jobs, but I am assured that the department is confident that it can continue to deliver core conservation work. Front-line staff, rangers, and services will be retained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220667b114f5e34b93af22422e5f4cff68\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How will the department perform its key function of protecting biodiversity, after sacking the scientists who identify the threats, write the recovery programmes, and then do the field work required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b802bbad91943929eeeaa5d3304a3c5\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Just exactly who may lose their jobs is still unknown, as the Department of Conservation is working through the options. But can I say that I am assured the department is confident it will continue to deliver core conservation work and that front-line staff and services will be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a586d9913f4a52acf3c558706a6340\u0022\u003ERahui Katene\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation was taken with iwi before announcing the disestablishment of some 20 jobs in the New Plymouth, Whanganui, and T\u016Brangi offices, and what has been their view about the decision to move the conservancy away from Whanganui, which has traditionally been the centre of government for the central North Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276904f50e7844b4e8baadf3ab11f8b2b\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: That matter is an operational matter. I suggest that discussions be had with the Director-General of Conservation and the conservancy concerned. I am certainly happy to take further questions and put a more definitive answer to the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c639f6146434202abb81a7c8f15e4bb\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: How will the department stand up to the mining industry and protect our precious public land from mining, as demanded by thousands of New Zealanders, given that the scientific and technical experts from the department are being sacked, at the same time as the Ministry of Economic Development is doubling the number of staff in its oil and minerals unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdc49d0329a4af5b954054134ef2012\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that question actually relies on a false assumption. I say that the member might like to have a chat with her colleague Damien O\u2019Connor, who has said that the world still relies on coal and oil to run, so stopping the mining of high-quality coal was a \u201Cdumb idea\u201D. I also say that I welcome the member\u2019s new-found interest in conservation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4c00dc078e424f981075cbee53f225\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225243c718e0bb40cab4743a9ffa7a636e\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the increase of staff in the department\u2019s new commercial business unit, compared with the loss of scientists who were working to prevent the North Island kiwi from becoming extinct, and, if she does not agree with that, will she act to save these jobs and the kiwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671c288304ad4cf9b8c27e09bd25cbb9\u0022\u003EHon KATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say that the commercial business unit is doing a fantastic job and, if the member really did have an interest in conservation, she would be aware that only last week Genesis gave $2.5 million to help with the blue duck programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e5ec34d236746a885f65674492d52e7\u0022\u003EHuman Rights, West Papua\u2014United Nations Secretary-General\u2019s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022933d574bf26840a8ae17c9a02b91a05d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022933d574bf26840a8ae17c9a02b91a05d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does he support United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon\u2019s statement regarding human rights in West Papua that \u201Cwe will do all to ensure that people in West Papua, their human rights will be respected\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022218f5b9a20044af6852e9be77d6ecfc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022218f5b9a20044af6852e9be77d6ecfc6\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs: We support the Secretary-General\u2019s call for the human rights of the people of West Papua to be respected. Human rights are universal and indivisible. That is one of the fundamental principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, drafted in 1948.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219144f7e0f604be4ad94cda5ad0403ce\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the House that I did not officially call question No. 4. I was kind of nonplussed by the previous answer to a supplementary question, and lost the flow for a moment. We are on question No. 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b5cf3d2b6747e19efe2f56cb28725e\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: What actions, if any, has he taken to condemn the Indonesian Government for the widespread human rights abuses in West Papua, which were brought to light last year in videos showing torture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201dd1f6b9d85424db4cb62295f35e282\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The incidents that the member refers to, which I believe are the unlawful detention and torture of individuals, were a breach of international law, and, in particular, the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. New Zealand plays a particular role in continuing to raise human rights issues with the Indonesian Government in that regard. The advice I have is that those involved in the ill-treatment of the West Papuans were eventually dealt with by the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b3f9e3eeb9448fa3f28883f579e801\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister stated a position but he did not say what actions he has taken to condemn those particular acts of torture\u2014those particular ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a1363b4c834454a815e6ba59c35abb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I think if the member reviews the Hansard, she will find that I said that New Zealand continues to raise human rights issues with the Indonesian Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab7846394bf492fb3598fdf595c6c65\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he urge his colleagues in Cabinet to halt plans to strengthen bilateral defence arrangements with Indonesia, considering the 10-month sentences given to Indonesian soldiers found guilty of torturing indigenous West Papuan citizens by burning their genitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a0512a1088455ebab34e2a974de0ca\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227680cfffe41b469c9a5108d67200db67\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he urge his colleague the Minister of Defence to reconsider current plans to visit Indonesia and instigate reciprocal high-level visits, given Indonesian President Yudhoyono\u2019s comments that the torture of West Papuan citizens is only a minor incident?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213613d6426244d2196473bbddaa4699e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of the first part of that question, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226965c608c1804e109dffe1f2e46b106a\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to the call this week from West Papuan representatives that New Zealand should act as a facilitator between Indonesia and representatives of West Papua in peace talks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022991ce539db2e47b99a24c3353a00568e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I do not have enough information on hand to answer that question specifically. I am sure that if the member puts the question down to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, he would be happy to respond to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225263d6fb47c24fbc85c2cf308a29ee99\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon\u2019s view expressed yesterday that the issue of Papuan self-government \u201Cshould \u2026 be discussed at the Decolonisation Committee of the United Nations General Assembly.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b383cdb9214f6ba9e0d79f24253f36\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen those particular comments from Ban Ki-moon, but I know that with any issues the New Zealand Government has with matters relating to West Papua, the opportunity will arise in 2012, I understand, as part of the Universal Periodic Review of Indonesia. New Zealand will have the opportunity at that time to ask questions that may cover some of the matters the member has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d4f0187c1a4a53987c963261578253\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, point of order, was that a yes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f42478bd2d144a59c6fcfdf6e5b6cfd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member must be acknowledged in seeking a point of order. The member is seeking a point of order. What is the point of order she is raising?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2dba3451fa64627b35eb97a5a537c44\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Was that a yes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517a0f8c9686404dbb1c37fca87624a0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. The member can lodge that as a further supplementary question, should she wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260985d5529be46debd598c707963332c\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he join Amnesty International in asking for the release of West Papuans imprisoned simply for raising the Papuan nationalist morning star flag?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e152cf1744e47b9bf725458b9581221\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any advice with me today on the specific issue of the matters raised by Amnesty International, and I would be reluctant to commit to the House without that information to hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f54e3f13ee94dcd99e55ca839249a57\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table from the EngageMedia website on 21 November 2010 the testimony of West Papuan farmer Tunaliwor Kiwo, recounting the detail of his torture by Indonesian soldiers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621a124f33ee49c68a13c4f8ff11ba67\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table this document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8cbc0b62874d0db931570b053bbcf1\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a photograph from the westpapuaunite channel on YouTube from 25 October 2010 of a West Papuan farmer being tortured, while the soldier says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b290c44aa341689afa826bcae0a07c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea674a49c96464790ea4985ef352c49\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a photograph from the AlJazeeraEnglish channel on YouTube from 18 October 2010 of a Papuan farmer having his genitals burnt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115208d8cbea4fa4a5ad2629115cc166\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Is there objection? There is objection because it is on the website. There is objection to that document being tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a07cc5049a3a41a6ab5b8341bcc6b071\u0022\u003EPublic Transport, Auckland\u2014Rail Capital Projects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002226216b22f31f4b76a2bc3e1688ef05d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226216b22f31f4b76a2bc3e1688ef05d8\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Aside from completing Project DART and the Auckland Rail Electrification Project, what rail capital projects in Auckland does the Government\u2019s transport strategies contemplate funding over the next 10 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u002293e3de05e2d54ee0be4c73e4aca1d20b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e3de05e2d54ee0be4c73e4aca1d20b\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question, because the Government, of course, in addition to the two projects he mentioned, recently announced the deal for the final electric multiple unit train purchase with Auckland Council, which will give us the opportunity to procure 50 percent more electric trains than were originally proposed, as a result of the $500 million Crown loan and the additional Government funding of up to $90 million. Following on from that, probably the best answer for further projects is to quote for the member\u2019s benefit from Connecting New Zealand: a summary of the government\u2019s policy direction for transport, which I happen to have in the House for the member. It states: \u201CAttention is now turning to which major projects and developments will need to be prioritised after these current projects are completed. This includes consideration of a third harbour crossing, improved central business district access including a possible city centre rail link, and further infrastructure to support ferries and bus transport.\u201D The document goes on to say: \u201CCareful prioritisation will be needed to provide the right solutions at the right time, and to ensure that we are maximising the efficient and effective use of \u2026 networks.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbd94a1b75ec4af093797f1ef7b5d325\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Auckland Council confirmed by 18 votes to two that the city rail link was the \u201Ctop priority transport project for Auckland,\u201D is he concerned about the level of misalignment between the Government\u2019s transport priorities for Auckland and those of Auckland Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aaef23a8bea43258a88d3196c2838fc\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is quite common for councils to have views and then to come to Government to seek funding for different projects. The Government, of course, has to prioritise all the projects across the country, and it tends to do so with things such as benefit-cost ratios to allow it to evaluate the different projects. Currently, the central business district rail link \u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207acc809314443dd81068b1f3cd185b0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Like the \u201CHoliday Highway\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c556c43eb6134439a7eb79683271fff0\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I will come to that\u2014has a benefit-cost ratio of 0.3, as against some of the other projects that members opposite are concerned about, which are all in excess of 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2d335b902343aabd4d54a164f97877\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the Ministry of Transport\u2019s review of the city rail links business case, which has led to the number that the Minister just quoted, does he know that that review relies on Fanshawe Street, Albert Street, and Symonds Street coping with more than 1,000 buses per hour by 2040, and are such huge numbers of diesel buses in the city centre consistent with this Government\u2019s vision for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9f91817da942f385313a08abc8edbe\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member will find he has been reading too many left-wing transport blogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07040ad8049410591ab7e47cf7f174a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: How many are there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8cdca0043e471ab5113f7323b65e62\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there are two or three. The reality is that the Government\u2019s review of the business case does not require any such thing. The reality is, and it is very important, that we assess all the options for transport into the central business district in Auckland, going forwards, and I think it is important we do that without rushing straight to one solution. That is what the Government is seeking and that is what the business case review recommends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5541c44e0034ba2b119c32ac95ff883\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the report Additional Waitemata Harbour Crossing Network Plan, which was commissioned by the New Zealand Transport Agency. It is the document that actually sets out that more than 1,000 buses will be in the central business district.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e271206a4c3491ba2a1348900a038f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? [Interruption] A point of order has been called by the member\u2019s own colleague. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb21a4f1b004b69a67bfcf79e6f66c2\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What steps, if any, is the Government taking to reduce the misalignment between its transport priorities and those of the Auckland Council, or are we seeing a deadlock between these two parties, the exact type of paralysis for Auckland that the super-city was designed to avoid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa96857e64d499ea7178c4ed95d8ab7\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Auckland Council and the Government have agreed on a forward plan for discussing that project alongside other projects. That involves, firstly, finalising and implementing the Auckland Spatial Plan and the City Centre Masterplan to establish achievable growth projections for the central business district; secondly, demonstrating a commitment to resolving current and emerging central business district access issues\u2014for example, by improving bus operations and addressing capacity issues\u2014thirdly, development of a robust and achievable multimodal programme for transport in the central business district, which considers a thorough analysis of alternatives and identifies the optimal mix of modes to meet demand; fourthly, beginning implementation of large-scale residential developments along the rail corridors, which were anticipated by the Auckland regional growth strategy; and fifthly, implementation of additional park and ride sites and changes to bus feeder services where appropriate, in terms of overall public transport demand. I think that those sorts of initiatives will ensure that we come to a cost-effective and appropriate transport response in Auckland for the benefit of Aucklanders, and also, for the whole country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f1bb53b26f409fb7de95ff0af3430c\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this Government so intent on undermining the council\u2019s transport goals and its plan for a compact city, and so reluctant to work with Mayor Len Brown and the Auckland Council on making Auckland the most livable city in the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b20bef8fcd48c79cccafc00c2cb464\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: For goodness\u2019 sake! I mean, really. I tell Mr \u201CTwifford\u201D that we have just announced the investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d02f19e8d54cc18f87c0d7d3363b4f\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister seems to have fallen into Rodney Hide\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f756fd3f5a742e680047ea64c2cb5d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whether the Minister has fallen into anything to do with Rodney Hide is nothing to do with the proceedings of this House. If the member wishes to raise a point of order, it must relate to the proceedings of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3c77f5903a94bc68e26be81fa0f47af\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I was just trying to point out to the member that the reality is that the Government has just announced a very good project with the Auckland Council. We have worked together and agreed a 50 percent increase in the number of electric trains that was contemplated by the previous Government and previous Auckland councils, to ensure that we have a modern electric fleet in Auckland. That is the sort of cooperation we are achieving. It is going very well between us and the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c72f85210dd416c9efbfec915d48591\u0022\u003EHealth Professionals, Training\u2014Rural Medical Immersion Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c43a7bb32755418892f0d7963bae08b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c43a7bb32755418892f0d7963bae08b6\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What action is the Government taking to encourage young medical professionals to work in rural areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022986fb922911c4241a3e03a06b8a191c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022986fb922911c4241a3e03a06b8a191c9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has made it very clear that meeting New Zealand\u2019s longstanding health workforce challenges is a priority. That is why we have pursued policies such as the Voluntary Bonding Scheme and tax cuts, which are important. I am pleased to inform the House that last week the Government launched a partnership with Otago and Auckland universities to train a variety of health students at the Whakat\u0101ne and Gisborne hospitals. Up to 120 positions a year will be available to students in medicine, nursing, pharmacy, and physiotherapy at both hospitals, with Gisborne offering dentistry as an additional option. We congratulate the universities, the district health boards, and all those involved on making this exciting initiative a reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234973fa9a03c4cd196897510d2ed0e4a\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: What are the objectives of this Rural Medical Immersion Programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc217529d7f45988d0f05e31329c769\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This is a $4.5 million programme over 3 years. We know that if health students come from rural areas, it increases the likelihood that they will work in rural areas. But if they are trained in rural areas, it doubles the likelihood of their working in rural areas. So it is a very, very sensible policy from the National-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022480d4b2c42a441e89dfe17ecd9e20f57\u0022\u003ERoad Safety\u2014Government Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab12491ed724c48981644dd93fca6bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab12491ed724c48981644dd93fca6bf\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What action, if any, has the Government taken to improve road safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f409c36e2f9c4ff9b41afca11638bd85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f409c36e2f9c4ff9b41afca11638bd85\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member very much for that question. There are almost too many to list. We took immediate action when coming into office to ban handheld cellphone use in cars, we passed new legislation to crack down on illegal street racing, we passed New Zealand\u2019s first drug-driving laws, we raised the driving age from 15 to 16, we introduced a zero blood-alcohol limit for young drivers and another one for repeat drink-drivers, we doubled the penalties for dangerous and drunken driving causing death, and we introduced alcohol interlocks, amongst other actions. Although there is always more to do to keep New Zealanders safe on the road, I am pleased with progress so far, in terms of the road toll. We will continue to make progress with the Government\u2019s agenda on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b32a91c51b43e289fcd9a07bd4631a\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Who was right: the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Education, both of whom told media that seatbelts on school buses are not compulsory, or the Prime Minister, who said that it is already a legal responsibility for seatbelts to be fitted on all school buses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225187c9bafeaa431baa4d942a5b6de49d\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: This may be weird for the member, but, in fact, all are correct. Where seatbelts are fitted, it is a requirement that they be worn, but there is no requirement at this stage that seatbelts be fitted in buses. The reality is that no Government has yet decided to make that call. The reason is that, on the whole, notwithstanding the very sad accident in the Bay of Plenty this week, buses have proven to be very safe on the way to school. In fact, thankfully, the last school bus fatality for an occupant of a school bus\u2014be it a driver or passenger\u2014was 13 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b7b69a6e584447aff7b538e8cfc3fd\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: What has he done to improve road rage and anger management, which, left unchecked, can cause harm to other road users?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e7fde3caab4ec884730c5a393010c8\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just think the member might want to be careful heading there. We are certainly working in a number of areas, including on cycle rage, road rage, and in a range of areas. But I just recommend that all drivers on the road be courteous and be focused on their driving and on acting responsibly while they are doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7457eaa35945e48ec5083057c7e43f\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does driving around in a red Audi station wagon splashed with National Party colours constitute a road safety hazard; if so, what is he doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118fa28d2d9548bb899c60db5ceb95d1\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member needs to consider whether she is in glass houses and stones territory. We could use words like \u201Cspeeding\u201D, \u201CSouth Canterbury\u201D, \u201Ccycle rage\u201D, and some other things that come to mind, which I will not mention. I am sure that it is not very helpful to start down that track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c337de98cde44f18dbf43148252a30c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s intention to allow a change of the law so that a plea in mitigation of bad driving can be made by people upset by their low rankings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222961e7350d544a690ff25d52fb430a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not really think that such a question can be taken seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222587b415b6a8467485483e98f2259ed3\u0022\u003EChild Abuse and Neglect\u2014Child, Youth and Family Support for Social Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbadea851b5b49afa83b5cb12b20e096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbadea851b5b49afa83b5cb12b20e096\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How is Child Youth and Family supporting social services to recognise and respond to signs of child abuse and neglect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00228b85bfb829064685a74f073bbcf10710\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b85bfb829064685a74f073bbcf10710\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We have funded the NGO Child Matters to run free 1-day workshops around New Zealand providing training to over 2,000 health, education, and social service professionals in identifying signs of child abuse. Recognising abuse is not obvious; it is not instinctual. Unless we train people to see the signs and ask the right sorts of questions, the abuse is silently allowed to continue. The training includes recognising when children and families are vulnerable, and guidance on what steps to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377ea6345be044f2bc7ad7fba9c2de6f\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Can she update the House on other initiatives that are part of the Government\u2019s programme of action for vulnerable children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0c745e11b24ebcb224448b07fe2876\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s Green Paper for Vulnerable Children, recently released, is currently receiving public submissions. There have been around 20 community meetings so far to talk about the issues the green paper has raised. Over 30 community forums are planned throughout September, and I welcome anyone who is interested in holding a meeting to get in touch with the Ministry of Social Development so we can provide them with the right kind of material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220df3a38acdd84a748cf5c5ff06b0c402\u0022\u003EScientific Research\u2014Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022d346f606a3f647648a91d1588603825f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d346f606a3f647648a91d1588603825f\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science and Innovation: Does he stand by his statement \u201CAttracting, empowering, and retaining talent must be the foundation on which our innovation future is built. This means investing more into our young scientists\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221a6acba1c1de47afbccde94293a82fee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a6acba1c1de47afbccde94293a82fee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Science and Innovation: He does. This Government has invested strongly in our science and innovation system, including in supporting young scientists. As a Government, we have consistently lifted the appropriation in Vote Science and Innovation, and I personally certainly hope that this trend is able to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2ea1e7293c4249b721aea65fca71a4\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he value the work of Professor Shaun Hendy, deputy director of the MacDiarmid Institute for Advanced Materials and Nanotechnology; Dr Rebecca McLeod, MacDiarmid Young Scientist of the Year in 2008; Associate Professor James Curran, from Auckland University; Dr Stuart Parsons, deputy director of the school of biological sciences at Auckland University; and Dr Nicola Gaston, senior scientist at Industrial Research Ltd\u2014and I could go on\u2014all of whom used the postdoctoral scholarship funded by the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, without which many of them would be living overseas now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b365975146f14c4fb783d95ea7395cde\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with the exact work done by the particular scientists that the member asked about. But, frankly, I value all the work that our scientists do. That is why, when we look at the funding that we inherited for the postdoctoral fellowship scheme, we see that in 2008 it supported 27 scientists. In 2012 we expect 30 to be supported by the Rutherford Discovery Fellowships. That number will increase by 10 in each of the next 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563ad6ff85f3469889fe91e3b40524ef\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter dated 6 September, sent to the Minister, and to Professor Sir Peter Gluckman and others, and signed by Melanie Massaro and 520 scientists, asking the Minister to reinstate the postdoctoral scholarships that give our smarter scientists the chance to stay in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65cfc32fcc64aa1b860b559cbf23055\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb57eaf858aa4e829e63e49e0dcbd560\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472ac1d64e64453692584666608ad97f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I should put the leave first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a627e31a83430584addd600d81cae5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a point of clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c44590c8447c474e88f345793bc3dced\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will hear the Hon David Carter, although there is no such thing as a point of clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285acabc40ae342c8ba0ec5125090672d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to check that the member is right in tabling a letter dated 6 September, because I have a copy of that letter and it is dated 7 September. I just want the member to check the date. It may well have been sent to him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e6181c39424fb98e0b52c8f18f1f8c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0a5514a7be9474fa80497c129476aa1\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have the letter here, addressed to Dr Wayne Mapp, Minister of Science and Innovation, and it is dated 6 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6090755f3cd44369d30c182e54b227f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f052514b5e7843b2a3cc4af66ae6f223\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister not listened to scientists who have been telling him for over a year that these cuts to postdoctoral scholarships will leave top scientists with no support, and that they will probably head overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb22afe503e42a38eeac9945251761f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We have listened to scientists. We have spent considerable money on the Rutherford Discovery Fellowships, on the basis of advice given to us that it was critical to support these scientists not immediately after they become eligible for a postdoctoral scholarship but subsequently in their career, and that is equally why we have announced we will review the scheme to make sure sufficient money is going into this area to attract New Zealand\u2019s talented and best scientists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209270ce978ed4e96a580724d72271215\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: If he has listened, why was it that yesterday, the same day that he received the letter from those scientists, he brought forward a review of scholarships from the end of next year to now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d0785a1c91451cb2f069ef3b991410\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The letter was received yesterday. Clearly, that letter was advanced to the Labour Party on the day before that. We are concerned about that letter, and therefore we have initiated a review of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708b65b635cf4b0291df24e266eb443a\u0022\u003EDavid Shearer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to reinstating the postdoctoral fellowships funding today rather than waiting until next year, in response to the 520 scientists who believe that their careers and many other careers are in jeopardy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28c2c0f56fb431b9494b458cd5ab3a5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, this Government does not make spontaneous decisions like the previous Labour Government did. We will make sure we have the right decision made, backed by the right information and research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a413783d3165479fb5386a8f14faa54f\u0022\u003EAustralia and New Zealand CER Trade Agreement\u2014Rules of Origin\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022 data-id=\u00221f43ac4e8ae947ee8ae30ec45eeaefe8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f43ac4e8ae947ee8ae30ec45eeaefe8\u0022\u003EJONATHAN YOUNG (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Customs: What reports has he received on developments to the Closer Economic Relations Trade Agreement between New Zealand and Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00221c47dbf978f142ea911d8df5b59d4d93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c47dbf978f142ea911d8df5b59d4d93\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E More good news. Recent changes to the CER rules of origin will mean it is now easier to use material from other countries in textiles and clothing, headgear, glass jewellery, copper tools, machinery and appliances, vehicles, boats, furniture, and toys. These new rules of origin determine which products are New Zealand or Australian goods and hence able to be exported between the countries free of duty, therefore making trade between our two countries even more competitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c76500170a1c49cf8dd71a4eeafacf9f\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits does CER bring to our exporters and manufacturers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e36ccf0337741d1b8482dbc093b2cb4\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: These changes to the rules of origin mean that CER continues to be a world-class free-trade agreement. The new rules of origin will enhance the competitiveness of our manufacturers and reduce compliance costs. CER is possibly the world\u2019s most comprehensive free-trade agreement. Since it was signed in 1983, total trade between New Zealand and Australia has grown at an average of almost 7.5 percent per year. In the 12 months ended June 2011 we exported over $10 billion worth of goods to Australia and imported just over $7 billion worth of goods. That proves the importance of this market to both countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2248e67d54a4f4598e18fd5fb63da44\u0022\u003EState-owned Assets, Sales\u2014Shares\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002275cc19cf166f4c81820f04ca2b5435c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275cc19cf166f4c81820f04ca2b5435c6\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Further to his answer to Oral Question No 10 yesterday on the Government\u2019s asset sales policy, in which he agreed that \u201CNew Zealanders already \u2018own\u2019 these shares\u201D, why should Kiwi families have to pay again to buy what they already own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002299533566cc9442a3ae11efdf0ce1005a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299533566cc9442a3ae11efdf0ce1005a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As is often the case, I did not say what the member alleges I said. No one will be forced to own anything. If people want to buy these shares they can. If they are satisfied with the view that they own them by being New Zealand taxpayers then the Government will continue to hold 51 percent of shares on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600b0d2bcbc54c27b5120c4fc94ec123\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Given that he hopes to raise $6.8 billion from asset sales, and there are 1.6 million households, is he not saying to every Kiwi family: \u201CPay $4,000 for shares that you already own or I\u2019ll sell them offshore.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cabe0d14dcc54e17bf00534618b929e2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I think that Kiwis will see the sense in an arrangement that provides an opportunity for them to invest their increasing savings in New Zealand, and for the Government to get money that it can use for important public investment\u2014and to get it from New Zealanders rather than borrowing it from foreigners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292102d35b7d0435f8874c422f94602e3\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Which does he think is the main reason that Kiwis oppose this Government\u2019s privatisation plan by a margin of 2:1: first, that Kiwis object to paying again for assets that the Minister freely acknowledges they already own; or, second, that they know it does not make sense for the Government to give up ownership of assets that pay hundreds of millions of dollars a year in dividends that help fund our schools and hospitals and sell that profit stream to foreign buyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4cc2a37d5004a0294ea676babdc1938\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that Labour MPs are finding out more about those reasons at the very large public meetings I understand they are running in phone boxes around the country. There will be a couple of tests. One is that the Government is being quite clear that it will put this policy to the test in an election campaign. That is the first test of whether New Zealanders support it. The second test will be whether they are interested in buying shares. We expect that they will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd5a85db7aa4c6e8fc79d20dba04f85\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope the honourable member could hear that answer, because his own colleagues were making so much noise that I surely could not hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4694f77d4ab4048a4c7050dd0639ea4\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: I think he was talking about the meeting that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e32f587940541d1a615c0e78eee898a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, can the member please just ask his supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fad176cb6912410a86b2a881695ec4b4\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he or any other member of his Government not been willing to turn up to defend their privatisation policy on shows such as Q\u002BA and in all other public forums to which they have been invited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227da728dc23b049ab83d35cd4b7326170\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is explaining its policy at every opportunity it can get. As I said, the test of the policy will be, first, whether the Government gets a mandate at the election\u2014because we are doing what we said we would do, which is put it to the people first\u2014and, secondly, whether New Zealanders put their hands up to buy shares. Members can make their own judgments about it, but we are reasonably confident that if we have the opportunity to provide those shares to New Zealanders they will probably be interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221e176b9c2584271aaf527729a6c7a56\u0022\u003ETeacher Competence\u2014Number of Complaints Received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002240497c51769947ad9882ac946a9cf91e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240497c51769947ad9882ac946a9cf91e\u0022\u003EHon JOHN BOSCAWEN (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: How many complaints about teacher incompetence, if any, have been received by the Teachers Council since she took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229d671d7945934550a5c60c16efd1e9e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d671d7945934550a5c60c16efd1e9e2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: The Minister is advised that there were 144 complaints regarding competence over the 2008-09 and 2010-11 financial years, out of a total 899 complaints about various matters to the Teachers Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f5f6e2a2d644779a4b2aacd40516f4\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Does it surprise the Minister that of these complaints only four resulted in teachers being deregistered for incompetence, and does the Minister therefore have confidence that the remaining 28,000-odd teachers are all competent and meet the standards that parents would expect of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289319372d5b54affbf7c1e9ff56e5119\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It does not surprise me about the number four because I was advised of that before I came to the House. I can advise the member that the Minister of Education is aware is that the Teachers Council has a number of avenues in order to support those teachers who are found to be wanting, and that is certainly supported by the $90 million of professional development support that the Government provides. We know that it is a very important responsibility for the Government to ensure that. It is one of the reasons why the Minister of Education has put 1,600 extra teachers in front of classrooms over the last 2\u00BD years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbaaf2ea3ae24af784a884cb8d801463\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: If all but four of New Zealand\u2019s 28,000-odd teachers are fully competent, why is it that 20 percent of students are still leaving secondary school with no formal qualifications, given that it is apparently not the incompetence of teachers that is at fault?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73c6d2ad6e64dc38e866f0b97c2175e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The number four relates to those who were considered by the Teachers Council. The Teachers Council has not made a ruling on the competence of the remaining teacher workforce. The reason why 1 in 5 New Zealand children are leaving school unable to read and write sufficiently is related to the poor state of the education system that this Government inherited. That is why the Minister of Education is working assiduously to have national standards put across New Zealand schools, and it is great\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc509a3f40ea41bc8fee1cc4906c5bd7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229977a1db7453411ea9a4e4470c3c0cc6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that more and more schools\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ad8d5c3f134ca2adcd6ca5118667b7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order has been called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f92f110a5914cd4a225d4d526af74e4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Should not the Minister, when he is criticising your work, address you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226696783b14784795b60fc7dd0f328fab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258681c900d8d4f8d8900b6dbb0773b96\u0022\u003EHon John Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister know of any other profession or industry where the level of incompetence is 0.0014 percent; if not, is it not really that the public school system protects incompetent teachers and fails to reward good teachers, at the expense of parents and students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022735ea41eb8f24b74a8551bc2a09ce8ec\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The numbers that we are talking about relate to decisions made by the Teachers Council. They are not a measure of competence of the 28,000 or so individual teachers across the country. I can assure the member that the Minister of Education is putting a huge amount of public resource\u2014$90 million a year\u2014into professional development to support and improve the teacher workforce, and on top of that, the Minister of Education has put 1,600 extra teachers in front of classrooms during her time in education so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdc9177595704918b098d0aa2e15ad69\u0022\u003ETrade Marks Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdc9177595704918b098d0aa2e15ad69\u0022\u003ECopyright Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022648f73d7faa4437d9d89a2e659bfb299\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002200c15c4e6dfe4697a629130e9800a138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200c15c4e6dfe4697a629130e9800a138\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. The first objective of these bills is to align New Zealand\u2019s procedures for registering trademarks with international standards to minimise regulatory and business compliance costs associated with the protection of trademarks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis legislation, which was formerly the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, amends the Trade Marks Act to implement the international registration regime for trademarks provided for by the Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks (Madrid Protocol). The Madrid Protocol is designed to assist business exporting to several countries at one time by providing a simplified procedure to protect their trademarks overseas. Joining the Madrid Protocol will provide New Zealand businesses with the opportunity to have their trademarks protected in up to 82 countries by filing one application in English with the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b421e43fd07e4880b9160e51ff6724fd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind members that it is a convention of the House that if they wish to have conversations that are not related to the issue at hand, they should take them outside and show some courtesy to the member who is trying to address the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022953777143c614c7593f64913d18b5cec\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I was doing OK, Mr Assistant Speaker, but, anyway, thank you for your assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBusinesses will still be able to apply for trademark protection directly in each of these countries, as is currently the case. The Trade Marks Act is also amended to align domestic registration procedures with the Nice Agreement Concerning the International Classification of Goods and Services for the Purposes of the Registration of Marks, and of course the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks. By joining these World Intellectual Property Organization, or \u201CWIPO\u201D, treaties, the Government is sending a strong message to the world that New Zealand has a credible and efficient regime for the protection of trademarks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe second objective of these bills is to provide for the increased enforcement of the criminal offences under the Trade Marks Act and the Copyright Act. Counterfeiters make victims of legitimate businesses and innocent consumers. Counterfeit goods can be of poor quality, and many of these products can also represent a serious risk to the safety of consumers. Internationally there is also evidence that the trade in counterfeit goods is linked to more serious organised crime. It is the intention of the Government not to allow New Zealand to become an easy target for counterfeit and pirated works, and this is particularly timely legislation prior to the Rugby World Cup. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIn recognition that the majority of counterfeit goods sold in New Zealand are sourced from overseas, the legislation provides new enforcement powers to the New Zealand Customs Service, I say to Mr Williamson. The legislation clarifies that customs officers are able to seize counterfeit goods and pirated works at the border and undertake investigations to enable importers of such goods to be prosecuted. Customs officers will also be able to require any person connected with the importation of the goods to produce documents concerning those goods or to answer questions. These powers complement the existing border enforcement powers available to them under the Customs and Excise Act 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThese bills will provide enforcement officers employed by the Ministry of Economic Development, as well as the police, with tailored investigative powers under the Copyright Act and the Trade Marks Act to gather evidence to bring criminal prosecutions against counterfeiters. I envisage that once these bills are enacted, the Customs Service and the Ministry of Economic Development will work cooperatively alongside the police and right-holders to tackle the counterfeit goods and pirated works industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to particularly thank the officials for the work they have done on this legislation over a long period of time, in particular George, who will know to whom I refer. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf7daf8eb774a18b4480bf44344bcfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf7daf8eb774a18b4480bf44344bcfe\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third readings of the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2), which arise from the Trade Marks (International Treaties and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. I wish to make a couple of comments, because in the time between the introduction of this legislation and its passage now there has been a great deal more discussion about the importance of trademarks and intellectual property, particularly in the context of the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI will touch on that for a moment, because it is pertinent to the purposes and the functioning of this legislation. This legislation was introduced on 8 September 2008, under a Labour Government. Labour is supporting this legislation; it was originally ours. Its first reading occurred on 7 April 2009. After that it was referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for consideration, and we on that committee reported back on 15 September 2009. So within about 5 months of the introduction of the legislation we had received submissions, we had deliberated, we had taken extensive official advice because there were some tricky pieces in this legislation, and we had reported back to the House. The report back to the House from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee said under the heading \u201CCommencement clause\u201D that there was discussion on a number of clauses that required implementation by Order in Council\u2014in other words, regulatory items that would not come before Parliament. They were largely procedural matters. But we went on to say that having considered whether these things should be implemented by Order in Council or go before the full Parliament, we accepted that there were valid reasons for commencement by Order in Council, and we said: \u201C[we] urge the Ministry of Economic Development to implement all aspects of the legislation expeditiously.\u201D\u2014expeditiously. That was 15 September 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis legislation had been sitting for 2 years, almost to the day, before it started to get its second reading. Its second reading was on 16 August of this year, 2011, under urgency. Why did the Government suddenly wake up and think that this legislation\u2014which had been languishing on the Government\u2019s Order Paper for 2 years, with the Government having been urged by the select committee to implement it expeditiously\u2014would need 2 years later to be resurrected under urgency and put through? We have heard no explanation at any time from any of the members opposite or from the Minister in charge of the legislation, the Minister of Commerce, as to why a 2-year delay has occurred in the course of the procedure of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe other point I make is that this trademarks legislation has three particular purposes. One purpose is for New Zealand to sign up in a timely way\u2014but here we go, 2 years late\u2014to three international trademark treaties. Its purpose is also to enhance the existing enforcement provisions in the Trade Marks Act and the Copyright Act in order to address the issues of the counterfeiting of registered trademarks and the piracy of copyright-protected works. There are a number of technical issues, as well, that are addressed in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is a different colour, a different complexion, now being cast on the issues of intellectual property, because of wide-ranging debates on the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, particularly chapters in the negotiations relating to intellectual property. We need to be very careful that everything we do relating to intellectual property protects the creative industries and those who wish not to have their creativity pirated, but at the same time we need to allow for opportunities for trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI ask this Government in the short time it has left before the election to ensure that this legislation meets the changed climate around intellectual property. We must not be in the position, having passed what I think is basically good legislation, of trading away our right to copyright protection and trademark protection under the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement. We know that intellectual property questions are being raised routinely and vociferously by non-governmental organisations, which have a right to be involved and a right to be heard in the process of negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement. There are real concerns in this area, and New Zealand needs to be cognisant of them. We need to be sure that we are not trading away, either consciously or unconsciously, anything that undermines our sovereign rights as a country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis legislation brings us into line with international treaties, and that is a good thing. The protocol relating to the Madrid Agreement and the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks are important and we need to be consistent with them, but let us not ignore the fact that the narrative is changing around these issues. This is not an area of debate that is cast in stone. It is not an area of debate of the kind where once the treaty is signed that is the end of it, that is the full stop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is a dynamic discussion. Issues to do with intellectual property are being revisited daily by countries apart from New Zealand\u2014not just New Zealand, and not just our non-governmental sector. Those issues are being questioned by academics around the world, and we need to be sure that nothing we do in the passing of this legislation, or in the signing of any free-trade agreements in the future, undermines New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty, or undermines our right to protect trademarks, creative products, and industries that can trade in the knowledge sector, not just in the commodity sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe legislation is OK as far as it goes. The legislation does what it needs to do, in technical terms. I just alert this House to the fact that these discussions are not over. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecb1fef7c0eb4d4da734ccbae95dcd22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecb1fef7c0eb4d4da734ccbae95dcd22\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I say from the outset that counterfeiting is always a vexed issue with the general public. If they think of counterfeiting at the level of someone bringing in a fake pair of Reeboks\u2014they would be pretty tatty and fall apart, and so on\u2014in his or her luggage at some stage, they do not think there is much wrong with that. But what I think is really important for the public to realise is that the trade in counterfeited and pirated goods is not only increasing in volume to very huge levels but also becoming very much more sophisticated, and it poses huge threats to public safety. I will cover some of those huge threats to public safety in the future. So if there is anybody out there who thinks \u201COh dear God, the Government is now trying to stop someone with a pair of fake Reeboks, or whatever.\u201D, that is not what this legislation is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EFirst, let us get the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2) in perspective. Counterfeiting, as I said, is a major growth industry, with the International Chamber of Commerce estimating that counterfeiting accounts for between 5 percent and 7 percent of all world trade. It is worth an estimated value of about US$650 billion a year, and is projected to increase to about US$1.7 trillion by the year 2015. So to get it into perspective straight away, we are not talking about nickels and dimes here; we are talking about very, very large sums of money. Those estimated costs, by the way, do not attempt to include the losses to any of the businesses that developed the intellectual property or are associated with the counterfeiting or the piracy. The chamber also estimates that approximately 2.5 million jobs have been destroyed by counterfeiting and piracy, so for those of us who are worried about employment around the world, that also is a matter that I think is important. Counterfeiting and piracy are insidious activities, although, as I said before, at the trivial end of it\u2014the one-off, or someone who happens to get a fake Rolex or whatever\u2014most New Zealanders say that it does not really matter, and so on. But I can tell the House that those are not victimless crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EQuite recently there has been a very, very big move, a very big shift, away from what we used to see as the luxury items\u2014you know, the fake Rolex watches, the fake Gucci sunglasses, or whatever. Now there is a move towards a big industry of counterfeited medicines, food products, electrical goods, toys, automotive parts, and even aeroplane and helicopter parts. I say to everyone out there listening to be very, very thankful that such rules are coming into place, because it would be quite easy for someone to put a very third grade, very low-level-of-safety piece of gyro-equipment into a helicopter and say that it was a genuine piece of whatever the Maserati equivalent of helicopter products is. Everyone would think they had bought and paid for that, but it would turn out to be a complete counterfeit and after a couple of hours in the air it would snap, give up, and there could be quite a loss of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo it is not just medicines\u2014we all know that fake medicines cause major mayhem. I think the one that brought a bit of a smile to my face, but that was also a bit shocking, was a year or two ago when I saw on the news that some counterfeit Viagra had been intercepted that was made mainly from bird droppings. The major constituent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7efd9d978834635b53122ea3a2bf26d\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does it work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0cfe981fcd44b29b1246c5e7df8a971\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide asked whether it worked. I do not know whether it worked, but Viagra\u2019s main constituency for the fake counterfeit was bird droppings. It was in the news\u2014I see Paula Bennett looking quite quizzical about it, but it is true. I have to say that if people rely on certain medications for their heart illnesses, or if they have respiratory illnesses or something, it is a very serious issue that consumers may be taking a very well-known brand or product for their illnesses but it turns out they are taking a complete fake or knock-off that cost a couple of cents. It could be made of bird droppings or something else, and it could endanger lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo counterfeiting is a very big issue. It is not something that we should just put to one side and say that it does not do any harm. Counterfeiting is not a victimless crime. It is not a victimless crime in a number of other areas either. I know the Greens will be concerned about the no-victim crime area when it comes to some of the goods that are produced in sweatshops overseas by labourers who are paid almost nothing, and who have no basic human rights or laws protecting them. A greater and greater number of these counterfeit goods are coming out of those appalling conditions where people are treated in subhuman ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo I am delighted that we have reached the third reading of the legislation and that we are bringing into law these protection bills. I know that the Trade Marks Amendment Bill is coming in specifically with regard to the Rugby World Cup, to make sure there are no counterfeits in relation to some of the products there. Even in one of my other portfolios, the building and construction portfolio, we have had a couple of alerts along the way of fake electrical goods\u2014fake electrical transformers, and so on\u2014that look as if they are the real thing. They can be bought quite cheaply and consumers put them into their houses, but who knows? Three or 4 months later those goods could end up bursting into flames and burning a house down. People thought they were buying the Rolls-Royce of electrical equipment, but it turned out to be a complete fake\u2014and I have already covered things like motor car parts and helicopter parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI will just talk about the current border protection notice regime. Under the current copyright and trademarks legislation, certain border protection measures are prescribed. Copyright and trademark owners lodge a border protection notice with the Customs Service. The notice regime is designed to facilitate copyright and trademarks owners taking civil action against the importers of counterfeit goods. Under the notice regime, customs officials detain suspected items and formally determine where the suspected infringing goods appear to be subject to a notice. Then the goods are detained for a period of 10 working days, pending civil action by the rights-holder against the importers of those goods. Importers are informed of the detention of their shipment and have the option of voluntarily forfeiting the suspected shipment to the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ECurrent estimates show that about 85 percent of detained shipments are concluded by the importer using the voluntary forfeiture mechanism. Under the current law, in the absence of voluntary forfeiture by the importer or any legal action taken by the rights-holder, the Customs Service must release the detained goods to the importer. Others import only enough stock at one time to run an online auction site or a stall. I think that is an interesting thing too. If they are bringing in small parcels of these counterfeits, people rely on the fact that customs officers will pick up on only one in every so many and, therefore, it is actually worth the risk. If those importers are bringing in one parcel every 3 or 4 days, and if one in every five gets intercepted and is forfeited, then the importers are making such good margins on counterfeit property that it is worthwhile letting it go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis bill will bring up to date, into modern law, our protection of those legitimate products that have been made by legitimate companies who put their money into research and development, and who put a lot of work into developing a product. I think the idea that now that one has developed something of real value it should be free domain, or actually able to be copyright breached and so on, is an anathema to a country like New Zealand, where we want to especially protect a lot of the patents and the properties that we develop. I fully support the third reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002255e9a9cc5b714b199309866050534503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255e9a9cc5b714b199309866050534503\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I have listened with intent to the Minister of Customs and his contribution to the debate. It was, as usual, an informative contribution. We were told, in some detail, of the evils of counterfeiting, and the fact that it is not a victimless crime, the fact that one\u2019s helicopter might fall out of the sky, and so on. It was then the Minister of Customs\u2019 pleasure to welcome the passage of the legislation, and to say how keen he was to see it arriving and to see it arriving in time for the Rugby World Cup. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWell, Labour supports this legislation. My colleague the Hon Maryan Street said it was OK, and therefore that is kind of how it is. So there is not going to be any difficulty in getting this legislation through the House today. But it is time to ask some questions of the Government. I am sorry that I am speaking after the Hon Maurice Williamson, because he is very good at answering questions. However, he cannot take a second call, and he might be good enough to give answers to questions, such as he knows them, to another National speaker in order that we can have these questions answered. Here are the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EQuestion one is probably a bit unanswerable, but here it goes. What took the Government as long as this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a63f1ae491341188aa18d7c43a6f8ae\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a toughie!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869e2d626e374cd58416461ec14eb2fc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a toughie. The Hon Maurice Williamson\u2014[Interruption] There is a person at the back of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227473a565a1bf4e508a3c4b6e6e9f97d1\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: You know my name. We\u2019ve talked before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226975b17d80ab4c8c90683fc1a112ccab\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e6effad4b04f87915f5179b1eb30a6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0429500fb1442b2a57ca618ffce4d63\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: That didn\u2019t go well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850a523c750d4ffdaea1ae01df88ad23\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is fine by me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247399f68790a4279b8b2388c2990136f\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: No, it didn\u2019t go well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d560b4b8a9c64cd09bac1fbc9b2e0ed0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Rowdy little number. I ask what took the Government as long as this, because the legislation came back to the House 2 years ago, and since that time all manner of legislation has passed, but not this. What took it as long as this? And that is a hard one, as Maurice Williamson said. I think it is the hardest question. He might like to give an answer to a subsequent National speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe second question concerns prosecutions. In September 2009 a Ministry of Economic Development official made two comments in a press statement of 24 September 2009. The first was that the ministry would be trying for more prosecutions, so that the offences would have the desired deterrent effect. \u201CNo-one is going to be put off\u201D\u2014this is the intellectual property team senior analyst, Mr George Wardle\u2014\u201Ctrading in counterfeit goods until there are a few prosecutions.\u201D So that was the ministry\u2019s position, and it seems to be a reasonable one. \u201CWe have a serious commitment\u201D, says a Customs Service operations manager, Mr Dave Meredith, one of the Minister\u2019s officials, \u201Cto intellectual property rights goods now and that\u2019s going to get more intense when we can investigate and prosecute. We will be seeking to make a deterrent and we will be attacking it straight on.\u201D I am reading verbatim the prosecutorial sentiments of officials from the Customs Service and from the Ministry of Economic Development. That was said 2 years ago, in September 2009. They had just witnessed the legislation coming back into the House, and presumably were expecting it to pass into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThey also said, and here is another reading from the same press statement, \u201CThere were no prosecutions under the 2002 Trade Mark Act.\u201D I am assuming that that legislation was regarded by officials as being insufficient, presumably because it is out of date, to effect a prosecution, and that they were looking for prosecutions once the new legislation came into place. So the second question is, did any prosecutions occur between September 2009 and September 2011? My guess is that they did not. So we have Government members standing up and saying they are terribly keen on protecting copyright, terribly keen on promoting trademarks, and terribly keen on ensuring that this is not a victimless crime and the victims are therefore protected\u2014but not passing the legislation, even though they knew that the previous legislation was not able to be enforced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EMy third question is this: how come, on the day before the New Zealand against Tonga match kick-starts the Rugby World Cup, we think we can pass this law on to the law books and make it work? Surely all of the counterfeit goods that will be sold during the Rugby World Cup have already come across our border. Surely all of the interceptions that could have taken place have taken place. Surely if there are counterfeit goods being sold because of the Rugby World Cup, they are being sold today, were being sold yesterday, and, actually, will be sold tomorrow. Tomorrow this legislation may not have received the Royal assent. The Governor-General may be busy. The officials may not have finished tidying it up. Typically they have to shift semicolons around for a few days before legislation is sent for the Governor-General to offer the Royal assent. So it seems to me that this legislation will not become law for at least some days yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI think the idea that we are passing this legislation now because it is timely is fatuous. I think the Government is making it up. I do not think the passage of this legislation has anything to do with the Rugby World Cup. What I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e913c18e4242319a3665f98d5ba755\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Very grumpy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3baa77e5a2b47fb850025ca6d0799e4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: What would the member for Waitaki like to offer by way of an explanation? Will she be able to take a call? Will the good lady take a call and explain why it is that 24 hours before the Rugby World Cup gets under way, this legislation will complete its third reading and that at any time in the previous 2 years it would not have been necessary, because the Rugby World Cup had not started\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfc97d34d87448c9b695540d60eaac80\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: That member should not be so grumpy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a0c42b5dc84802b6280111d6c76e18\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am grumpy? I am grumpy? I am merely asking questions. I am merely asking the dear lady questions. I would be interested to see whether she can answer them. In fact, I might resume my seat presently. That is a good idea, is it? I will do that. I will resume my seat presently, and let us see whether the member for Waitaki will get up and offer joyous answers to these questions. I would love to hear what they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u00225edf3c0d12e34882a9a149d55ba638da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225edf3c0d12e34882a9a149d55ba638da\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is fair to say that I am somewhat surprised to find myself on my feet at this point. I would have thought that Government members would have a little bit more to say about this important legislation, but never mind. They are obviously giving somebody somewhere some time to go away and ponder the important, interesting, and probing questions posed by my colleague the Hon Pete Hodgson. I think they were excellent questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226341297255ee4bbc877750f81d7b4d35\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: We like multiple-choice questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8e143a08304104a238fa34781b2ba9\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY\u003C/span\u003E: Maurice Williamson said he prefers multiple-choice questions. Maybe the answers are A, C, D, C, A, C, D, and C. I do not know. They are usually the answers that got most people through fifth form\u2014or they did back in my day. Fifth form does not even exist any more these days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe are on the third readings of the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2). Labour originally introduced this legislation, and we are happy to continue supporting it. It has been described by Maryan Street as being OK legislation. They are not bills that we are showing a huge amount of enthusiasm for, but they are those technical bills that are very, very important to ensure that things keep happening, that our economy keeps moving, and that in this age of the global economy and global trade New Zealand is able to participate in the global economy as a receiver of goods across our borders, and to ensure that the goods we receive and that New Zealanders purchase within New Zealand are of high quality and are counterfeit goods as rarely as possible. The bills ensure that we are able to protect our goods that we send offshore, as well as our intellectual property, our ideas, and all the things that we send out into the world as traders in the global market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThis legislation was originally a Labour bill, and we are happy to support it. In fact, the original bill has been broken into two bills that further New Zealand\u2019s commitment to building international trade rules, which we all know are vital to ensuring that trade is both fair and free. We know in this day and age that people are much more conscious about where their goods come from and about the workplace relations and the employment laws under which people who are making those goods labour. By ensuring that they are buying the genuine article rather than a counterfeit article, people have a much better idea as to where those goods were made, who made them, and under what conditions they were made. That is important to consumers these days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is also very important to know that the environmental practices of the companies that are manufacturing these goods are satisfactory and just. People purchasing furniture\u2014and I used this example when we were talking about the National Animal Identification and Tracing Bill the other day\u2014want to know that it has not come from rainforest timber or some operation that is engaging in deforestation. They want to know that that timber is sustainable, and they want to know of the other environmental impacts\u2014the impacts of transport, the impacts of any chemicals that are being used, and all the other potential impacts of manufacturing any type of goods. People have a much better opportunity to trace those goods if they are the genuine, trademarked article, as these bills allow us to enforce. They allow us to enforce the treaties that ensure that those trademarks are robust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe legislation will, as I said, enable innovative New Zealand companies to more easily protect their trademarks in multiple jurisdictions offshore. We know that all countries and all companies in some jurisdictions struggle to be able to ensure that their trademarks are protected and that, in fact, the local government and local jurisdiction do not actively allow people in those jurisdictions to engage in counterfeiting. The bills enable the Ministry of Economic Development and the Customs Service to more easily enforce criminal offence provisions by providing powers such as entry and examination without a warrant, as well as entry and search under a search warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI found Maurice Williamson\u2019s contribution to the debate to be most fascinating. He discussed the impacts of counterfeiting, the enormous level of counterfeit product that is available around the world, and the projected growth of that product. Indeed, allowing our economic development and customs officials greater scope to enforce the provisions we have to enable trademark and copyright enforcement is an important aspect in trying to curtail that international trade in counterfeit products. The bills expressly provide that the police have the same powers as enforcement officers, and that is an important aspect in that enforcement, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EIt is important that New Zealand plays its part and is leading some of the areas of standards development in this area. Obviously, as a nation that relies on trade and exports, it is important that we are a leader in this field, and that we are seen to be a leader in this field. Harmonising our laws with international standards makes good sense. I think it is fair to point out that we are not exactly the first country to be signing up to most of these treaties; most of these treaties have long lists of States that are members of the treaty. Even though really we have been practising the terms of those treaties for some time, it has taken us a little while\u2014and Pete Hodgson questioned what has taken us so long\u2014to officially ratify those treaties and to bring them into law. Counterfeit trade can produce a significant amount of money, which is attractive to criminal organisations looking to fund more serious illicit trades. That is another important reason why we should be clamping down on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EAs other members have discussed, by introducing these two laws we are essentially ratifying three treaties and protocols. The first is the Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks (Madrid Protocol), which provides a system that simplifies the procedures required for a trademark owner to protect their trademark overseas. Joining the Madrid Protocol will provide New Zealand trademark owners with the possibility of having their trademarks protected overseas by filing one single application for the registration of a trademark with the Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand, and designating one or more overseas countries that are members of the Madrid Protocol where protection is sought. Overseas trademark owners would also be able to use the Madrid Protocol to protect their trademarks here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EJoining the Madrid Protocol will also simplify the subsequent management of overseas-registered trademarks. It is possible to renew or record subsequent changes to the trademark registration in each country using the Madrid Protocol through a single procedural step, rather than making a request directly in each country. The legislation amends the Trade Marks Act to facilitate the implementation of the international registration regime for trademarks under the Madrid Protocol, including providing for regulations to be made for the purpose of giving effect to New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the Madrid Protocol. This is a streamlining process to ensure that people who want to register their trademarks internationally are able to do it simply, without too much fuss or bother. These things are never entirely simple, but this is a method of ensuring that it is easier than it might otherwise be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EThe other agreements that we are signing up to are the Nice agreement and the Singapore treaty. The Nice agreement provides a classification system for goods and services for the purposes of registering trademarks, and the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks aims to make national trademark registration systems more user-friendly, and to reduce the business compliance costs for trademark owners. All of these agreements are making the business of registering trademarks, both here in New Zealand and internationally, much simpler. They allow New Zealand to engage in global economies, and for that reason Labour is very, very happy to support the continued passage of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3501d85c54240ff8f5f97c974530105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3501d85c54240ff8f5f97c974530105\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. The M\u0101ori Party is happy to support this legislation. The consultation that we have been able to have with those who have expertise and experience in the field of intellectual and cultural property suggests that there is low risk from this legislation and that it is, in fact, worthy of our support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe legislation establishes a mechanism to reduce the likelihood of New Zealand being used as a go-between to avoid other States\u2019 privacy laws. There are also provisions to ensure that personal data originating overseas and sent to New Zealand is subject to our privacy protection. We believe that the commitment to the protection of personal data, not only domestically but internationally, would highlight to other Governments that we take the protection of privacy seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt has also been very positive that the suggestions that came up through the select committee process have been taken into account. It reminds us and reinforces the view that good law is law that is shaped by, and responsive to, the views of the public. In this legislation, for example, the public law committee of the New Zealand Law Society recommended adding a reference in the legislation to international agreements, guidelines, or principles that are relevant to trans-border data flows. This would include incorporating the OECD guidelines directly into the legislation. The recommendation was agreed to by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and the necessary amendments were proposed. This is exactly how the legislative process should work, and it reminds us of the importance of our Parliament\u2014with a Government that insists that other countries be democratic\u2014being seen to be a democracy also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe key issue for our discussion in reference to this legislation is around the importance of international relationships. The aim of the legislation to accede to the Madrid Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks means that, basically, we are establishing a context for considering a global trademark. The opportunity to also accede to the Nice Agreement Concerning the International Classification of Goods and Services for the Purposes of the Registration of Marks, as well as to ratify the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks, is one that we fully support. We do so because we see a global language, a relationship with other nations, as an essential opportunity to build respect and understanding across the globe. I have to say that it is particularly timely, on International Literacy Day, that we are acting in a way that is consistent with our global counterparts. It is extremely positive that this Parliament will be giving effect to commitments that are consistent with international practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EIt is from such a basis that we hope to establish trade relationships with other first-nation peoples. The bill may provide benefits to M\u0101ori business owners wanting to apply for trademarks, particularly if they want to trade internationally. We also see support for this bill as being totally consistent with acceptance of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which we see as one of the hallmark successes of the M\u0101ori Party relationship with the Government in this term of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAgain, the timing is interesting. It is almost 4 years to the day since 13 September 2007, when the Labour Government created such outrage amongst tangata whenua in its opposition to the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That one act, along with the infamous raids undertaken under the auspices of Operation Eight\u2014the raids in Ru\u0101toki\u2014was certainly part of the context that lead to M\u0101ori deserting the rank and file membership of the Labour Party. It is a history that was brought home to us vividly yesterday with the not surprising revelations that charges would be dropped due to evidence being inadmissible. We must not allow these events to be forgotten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229469f47c5517428cabf5226455941ccd\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the third reading of the bill, and generally that is a fairly tight debate. I think the member has strayed some distance from the bill itself, and I request that you pull her back to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd23789109504ed3bee6e1d07b789c27\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is not so tight, in terms of the fact that the third reading is often a summing up of what goes on in the Committee stage. I am listening to the member and I am starting to have concerns, so I ask the member to address the trademarks legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d42212719f84273a770a1b52ef523ac\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE\u003C/span\u003E: I must say that we are disappointed that the legislation does not include the M\u0101taatua Declaration on Cultural and Intellectual Property Rights of Indigenous Peoples and that it was overlooked in the evolution of this legislation. We need to see M\u0101ori-specific indigenous knowledge and intellectual property protection legislation that gives due regard to the unique value of the indigenous brand. We are now calling for a proactive approach to supporting M\u0101ori intellectual property protections. We want to support indigenous declarations on cultural and intellectual property, including the M\u0101taatua declaration, and their expression in domestic and international law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EFinally, I have to place on record that this House must acknowledge the inevitable refinement of policy that will occur following the Government\u2019s response to Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei, a report of the Waitangi Tribunal into the claims concerning law and policy affecting M\u0101ori culture and identity\u2014that is, Wai 262. This report has been uppermost in all of our minds this week with the sad passing of the kuia who was one of the original claimants, Saana Murray. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe Wai 262 report described two categories of taonga related to cultural and intellectual property, which trademarks reflect. A taonga work is a creation of a pre-existing and distinctive body of knowledge, values, and insights knows as m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. A taonga-derived work is something that is inspired by m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori but is not a taonga in itself. It does not reflect traditional narratives and has no spiritual significance. It may look like it contains elements of M\u0101ori design, but it has no connection to the ancestors. An example of a taonga-derived work could be the koru on the tails of the Air New Zealand planes, similar commercial logos and motifs, and purpose-written waiata for schools and workplaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe Wai 262 report called for new standards governing the use of taonga works and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori with a mechanism that allows kaitiaki to object to offensive or derogatory use or commercial exploitation without consent. Also recommended is the establishment of an expert commission with specialists in intellectual property law, commerce, science, and stewardship, consisting of both M\u0101ori and Crown members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI touch on some of these issues canvassed in the Wai 262 report, Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei, as I believe that they will be highly relevant to the future implementation of this bill. At the very least, there should be a qualifier that will give legislators and policy makers a reminder to keep alert to the consequential changes that will be required to address the Wai 262 findings. With these few comments in mind, we will support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e71d0633eab7459fa400cae29439c793\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e71d0633eab7459fa400cae29439c793\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak in the third readings of the Trademarks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2). I will pick up on a couple of points that have been raised by previous speakers in this debate. They relate to the work that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee did on this legislation when it was first sent to our committee. Points have been made by two Labour members about some aspects of the legislation being brought into being through Order in Council. They were referring specifically to clause 2(2) of the original bill, which provides for 10 clauses\u2014very important clauses in the legislation\u2014to be brought about by Order in Council. The Hon Maryan Street picked up on the point that the committee\u2019s commentary on the bill urged the Ministry of Economic Development to implement all aspects of the legislation expeditiously. The member used that as a bit of an excuse or an opportunity to try to raise a rather weak attack on the Government, in terms of timeliness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI suggest that that member has rather missed the point. I recall very well the discussion on those 10 clauses in the original bill at the select committee being about such matters as the appointment and powers of enforcement officers and customs officers. I recall very clearly in the select committee\u2014the member may not and her colleague may not, but I recall very clearly\u2014that we had a long and careful discussion about the powers of customs officers. It did seem to members of the committee present\u2014and I know that my colleagues in the House recall it very well\u2014that that was the focus of our discussion. I suggest to the members opposite that the powers of enforcement officers and customs officers are of critical importance. I suggest to that member that we dealt with that issue very thoroughly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EFurther to that, we were concerned that the explanatory note of the bill as it was sent to our committee did not adequately explain just why those 10 clauses were to be enacted through Order in Council and would not be in the body of the legislation. I suggest to members opposite that that was the reason why we had concern for that part of the legislation, not any aspect of when the legislation might be read in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI note also that this is a busy Government. This is a busy Government that has an awful lot of work on its plate picking up after 9 years of neglect by the previous Labour Government. This Government has undertaken a long body of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI also pick up on the Hon Pete Hodgson, who spent a lot of grumpy time, I have to say, in his third reading speech asking a number of questions and table-thumping about why he was not going to get the answers. I suggest to that member that he had a lot of opportunity during both the select committee consideration of this legislation and also the Committee of the whole House stage of this bill to ask those questions. If it has only just now occurred to that member to ask those questions, I suggest that he might have taken a little bit more care about the legislation on its way through our very good select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHaving made those couple of points, I am also very pleased to see this Government putting through this legislation in time for the Rugby World Cup. The eyes of the world are upon us now. It is most important that we have the legislation in place now to cope with the challenges that the Rugby World Cup is bringing upon us. The Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2) will make life easier for the New Zealand Customs Service and New Zealand business, while cracking down on people who import and sell counterfeit goods. As the excellent Hon Maurice Williamson noted, it is all very well to bring into the country a pair of cheap sneakers with some brand name on that will ultimately fall apart within a few days, but that does not do the New Zealand economy any good, and it certainly does not do the good name of the company any good. This legislation overcomes that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt also gives effect to a number of treaties for the New Zealand Government: the Madrid protocol, the Nice agreement, and the Singapore treaty. I will not use the time of this House to rehearse the impact of those treaties; they have been well canvassed in the House. With those few words I commend the bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022 data-id=\u00224211787ea3c84a6b87926f19b5fab4e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224211787ea3c84a6b87926f19b5fab4e6\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak in the third reading debate of the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2). This is more quality, Labour-initiated legislation that this Government eventually adopted as its own, although it has taken a rather long time to get to this point, which has been well canvassed. It is not bad legislation, and it deservedly has the support of the House. Although the subject matter might appear to some to be dry, we should not underestimate the importance of this legislation. A number of my colleagues have addressed that. Ensuring that our intellectual property law and enforcement measures are appropriate and effective is fundamentally important to protecting and promoting a healthy business environment in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EI note that my colleague the Hon Maryan Street has pointed out that the landscape in these 2\u00BD or nearly 3 years has changed markedly around this whole issue of intellectual property. It is really important to note that, and I will make some more remarks on that later on. It is important legislation because it harmonises our laws with international standards; it furthers New Zealand\u2019s commitment to building international trade rules, which are vital to ensure that trade is free and fair; and it puts measures in place to deal with the enormous and growing problem worldwide of counterfeit goods. Importantly, it enables innovative New Zealand companies to more easily protect their trademarks in multiple jurisdictions, which is a really important, fundamental thing that this legislation will, hopefully, do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EAs most members present are no doubt aware, this legislation has two major functions: to bring the New Zealand trademark law into line with the requirements of the Madrid Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks, the Nice agreement, and the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks. And it seeks to enhance the abilities of the appropriate enforcement agencies under the Trade Marks Act and the Copyright Act so that they have the necessary powers to crack down on criminal activity in this area. These international commitments that are being made through harmonising with the treaties are an excellent step forward for New Zealand businesses and rights-holders, but such commitments are effective only if they are supported by good law at home. It is essential that the Government officials have the ability to do their job, especially with the changing landscape of intellectual property infringement. In the last decade the Customs Service has detected a considerable increase in the traffic of counterfeited material into this country, and I think somewhere it is mentioned how much that is. I think the New Zealand Customs Service reported that the volumes of counterfeited goods had risen by over 400 percent since July 2000, with 260,000 items detained by them each year. A number of my colleagues during the debate have talked about that, and it is expected to rise over a wider range of products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Economic Development has already signalled that the current laws around intellectual property are inadequate for effectively policing this assault. This legislation addresses that concern by giving enforcement officers from the Customs Service and the Ministry of Economic Development greater powers, including the ability to enter and examine premises without a search warrant where there is a suspected breach of the law, and to thoroughly search the premises if a search warrant has been obtained. Those powers are also extended to the police to allow them to carry out their duties with regards to issues like piracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe empowerment of Government officials with regard to criminal\u2014criminal\u2014activity is not a decision that should be made lightly. I think it is an issue that the Green MP David Clendon raised during the second reading, and his colleague Keith Locke did so during the select committee process. However, we know\u2014and I think we can be satisfied\u2014that the powers given to the Customs Service and the Ministry of Economic Development are appropriate, considering the work they are required to do. Some in the media painted a picture of a Ministry of Economic Development hit squad making raids on the warehouses of innocent importers, delaying the sale of their products and hurting their profits. Although it is impossible to guarantee that this would never happen in isolated cases, the benefits of a more robust enforcement regime far outweigh those speculative costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThe protection of intellectual property rights is central to a well-performing economy, and this law will improve the economic environment by ensuring that rights-holders know their intellectual property remains theirs and consumers can have confidence in the quality of the goods and services that they are purchasing. That is really important, and I do want to stress that, because we are talking about criminal activity here for the purpose of counterfeiting goods, pushing them across borders, and then selling them on. That is an issue we need to spend time addressing, and this legislation does that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis legislation effectively updates present law and brings it into line with the need to address that increased criminal behaviour and the techniques used to breach trademarks and copyright, and the enormous issues with regard to the movement of counterfeit goods across borders. It is commendable that the Government is pushing this, but it does raise an important issue with regard to other legislation that has been before this House recently\u2014in particular the Copyright (Infringing File Sharing) Amendment Bill. It highlights the importance of members of Parliament, members of select committees, and, in particular, Ministers being on top of their briefs, on top of their areas, and being able to grasp the nature of change\u2014in particular, technological change\u2014and the impact it is having on the behaviours of consumers\u2014that is, citizens, and business models. I am referring to the importance of updating legislation to ensure that the law and the regulatory and operational response to breaches of the law are appropriate, effective, and up with the times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EThis Government and this Parliament saw the passage of the Copyright (Infringing File Sharing) Amendment Bill, which did not address criminal behaviour. It addressed civil infringement, and an enormous amount of time was spent in the last couple of years trying to work out how to address it. But that bill, which was passed under urgency, focused solely on measures to push vast numbers of New Zealanders who access illegally downloaded share material that they either cannot get any other way or would have to wait for a very long time to access. The distribution channels for that material, whether it is music, movies, TV programmes, or whatever, are locked in the mind-set of the previous century and prefer to turn our kids and ordinary citizens into criminals, rather than change the way their businesses operate to deliver what the market so obviously wants. It is important to have that law, because people should be deterred from illegal behaviour. But it was ridiculous to contemplate disconnecting them from the internet, and it was also ridiculous to introduce it under urgency without taking a wider look at the whole copyright regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0a24acc52a5474c994ed55021ea457c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1b2af3e4b74edfb80482dabb35ed8f\u0022\u003ECLARE CURRAN\u003C/span\u003E: That is why it relates to this legislation, and what the Government should be doing to encourage new business models emerging in our country or being allowed into our country to distribute content that is affordable in real time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003EMy point is that with this legislation before us, as with any other legislation that is being updated, changed, and harmonised in relation to other legislation and treaties around the world, we have a responsibility as parliamentarians to bring ourselves up to speed with technology changes and their enormous impact on the way we are conducting many parts of our lives. We have a responsibility to assess all legislation to see what impact the changing technology has on it, and this legislation is no exception. Labour supports it. It was originally our legislation, and we are evolved enough as a party to acknowledge that we must change with the times. Perhaps it is time that the members on the other side of the House acknowledged that too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002222e0092d639146d9b803a8ffbaeaac67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222e0092d639146d9b803a8ffbaeaac67\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this very important legislation. There is no doubt that it is fundamental for the viability of the international trading market that intellectual property is appropriately protected and observed. In many respects, that is what this legislation is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI absolutely take the point, made by both Maryan Street and the previous speaker, Clare Curran, that the landscape around intellectual property is constantly changing. That has been the case for hundreds of years, and it will continue to change as we see an increasingly rapidly evolving technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Maurice Williamson so clearly pointed out, counterfeiting behaviour is becoming more and more of a problem internationally, and it is now impinging on the international business markets to the order of hundreds of billions of dollars, and this situation is getting worse and worse. But not only that, there is also the possibility of threats to public safety. I think he brought up the example of counterfeit helicopter blades. During the submission period A J Park pointed out that that threat was one of the issues, along with the increasingly rapid evolution of counterfeit medicines going right around the world. I think the Hon Maurice Williamson\u2019s example was unusual, but certainly with a lot of mainstream medicines, whether heart medicine, high blood pressure medicine, or blood thinning medicine\u2014a whole variety of medicines\u2014all these things have been tried on, to the detriment of individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOf course, though, underlying this is the protection of intellectual property, and that is why it is so apt and appropriate that we have the amalgamation of those three treaties, the Nice agreement, the Madrid Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks, and, of course, the Singapore Treaty on the Law of Trademarks. I was very interested to note that this aims to make national trademark registration systems more user-friendly, and to reduce business compliance costs for trademark owners. I think it is very salutary that it comes in the name of Singapore. After all, Singaporeans are so well-known for being efficient and effective. In fact, in many respects that is one of their trademarks, and is something that countries like New Zealand have a lot to learn from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI remember that in the Committee stage the Hon Pete Hodgson quoted Elspeth Buchanan as being someone who had some reservations. She is from P L Berry and Associates, and is someone who has spent 40 years in the industry. I note that one of the areas she was concerned about was the balance of just how much enforcement we have. This legislation, which has now been split into two bills, requires appropriate enforcement, yet excesses of enforcement may go too far. P L Berry and Elspeth Buchanan cite a recent incident with the Customs Service to show where the potential dangers to legitimate New Zealand businesses can be eroded. A shipment was stopped because of a suspicion that it breached a customs notice, but the customs officer was unable to make a formal determination that the products were counterfeits. This caused a delay and, consequently, a whole shipment of goods for Christmas was not delivered on time, much to the disappointment of the business concerned, and much to the disappointment of the recipients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELike all of the things in this legislation, intellectual property is a dynamically evolving situation and needs to be revised continually, and this Government is doing exactly that. On the other hand, there is a fine balance to how far one goes in terms of enforcement, and I think this legislation has it about right. It is with great pleasure that I commend the legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022050f631c017945f6bb50e65d04e88d86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022050f631c017945f6bb50e65d04e88d86\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on these bills\u2014the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014because they are being handled by David Clendon, who is not able to take a call. But I have been inspired by a number of the comments that people have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe Greens are voting for the legislation. We think it is interesting legislation because the issue of trademarks has a lot of underlying issues. One issue, as the previous speaker just touched on, is intellectual property, and I would like to acknowledge the M\u0101taatua Declaration on Cultural and Intellectual Property Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which was from a landmark, leading hui held in M\u0101taatua, in that part of the country, where a lot of very important kaupapa were laid down. That had a huge influence, and it was then picked up through Wai 262. Those are landmark, if you like, really fundamental issues that I hope this legislation will be able to take account of appropriately. This country\u2019s unique contribution to the global trademark issue is that this is Aotearoa New Zealand and we have the M\u0101taatua Declaration and the Wai 262 recommendation. I support the leadership of tangata whenua on intellectual property; it has been a profound leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EHowever, I will address the issue of counterfeit, because it is an interesting word and I think we have had examples of counterfeit and unfair trade. In many ways the Green Party would say that the Trans-Pacific Partnership is another example of unfair trade, and another example of how we are not robust enough in our attitudes towards trade. Although the trademarks legislation will assist with this, there are some fundamental issues it cannot address. However, the legislation does raise this issue in a good way, and it does make us talk about what is a good trademark. We can take something like Te Waka Toi, which has been very, very powerful, and which has assisted M\u0101ori artists to export around the world. It is a robust trademark, and that is what this legislation is trying to support\u2014the robustness of any trademark available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EBut I will talk about counterfeit goods that are less easy to pick up, and goods that customs officers at the moment do not have the tools to pick up, which may not be covered by this legislation. I hope that I am wrong about that. I guess my experience has been particularly with regard to illegal logging products, and those can be paper products, illegal timber, or all kinds of products containing unsustainable and illegally logged rainforests. I brought a member\u2019s bill before this House 2 years ago\u2014which was immediately voted down\u2014that attempted to give tools to customs officers so that they could actually prevent illegally and unsustainably logged products from coming into New Zealand. The Government voted the bill down in less than 20 minutes and did not even bother to talk about it properly, so I am pleased that trademarks are now being taken seriously. But I am still disappointed that at a time when rainforests and the climate are a crucial issue in the International Year of Forests, we have not made much progress on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe reason it is important is that counterfeit sandshoes and counterfeit helicopter blades are one thing, but there are a lot of issues that are even more basic. I will use the example of toilet paper. At the moment toilet paper from rainforests is being imported into New Zealand, and, even if it is not counterfeit, I am sure that New Zealanders would feel it was counterfeit if they knew that the Cottonsoft brand of toilet paper has been proven to be connected to the illegal and unsustainable destruction of rainforests. As somebody said\u2014I think it was Iain Lees-Galloway\u2014most New Zealanders have a growing consciousness about where things come from. But if something is called Cottonsoft and it is sold in a Kiwi supermarket, then, until the work is done by the Green Party, Greenpeace, and the World Wildlife Fund for Nature New Zealand, very few people will realise that that particular brand is not a trademark that can be trusted. The issue of trademarks and trusts is quite profound. We know that that toilet paper is not to be trusted because Greenpeace has tested the fibres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIt comes back to what is behind the trademarks, which is: what is the chain of custody? What is the certification that can give us the right to believe that that trademark is actually robust? We have a long way to go with chain of custody and certification around timber products in particular. There is only one certification in the world\u2014and I do agree with comments from other members that we need a global approach to many of these issues, because the global market means that goods move freely between borders. That is why this legislation is important, too. It is important because forest stewardship certification is the only robust trademark in terms of forestry products that New Zealanders can rely on. We have organisations like Asian Pulp and Paper that are cutting down rainforests to make toilet paper, and selling it to New Zealanders who do not know about it. We have that happening because we do not yet have a regulatory framework to stop that from happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI will be persisting in this issue, as well as the trademark legislation, because I believe that while importers of things like toilet paper are using fake certification, it is not always being defined as counterfeit, and I am not sure that it will be picked up by this bill. That is the problem\u2014a lot of counterfeit things are given what I call \u201Cgreenwash\u201D certification, or bogus certification. There are all kinds of palm plantation products, and all kinds of certification names and acronyms that people use\u2014sometimes invented by the companies themselves, sometimes with some degree of global scrutiny, but often not at all robust\u2014to claim that these products are actually genuine. They get these lovely trademarks with pictures of animals on them, they are all called natural and they have got this so-called certification. But if one goes into the timber stores of this country, or the retailers, and tries to find out where these products have actually come from, one will see a trademark but it is often bogus. Some stores have made huge progress; we have worked with Greenpeace for a long time, and we have seen many stores step up to the plate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThis is an issue that the New Zealand Imported Tropical Timber Group and New Zealand Forest Owners Association have been working on with the Green Party for some time, because we are passionate that any trademark is a real trademark\u2014that people cannot make claims that they are producing products that have been logged sustainably from the rainforests of South-east Asia and the Pacific when they are not. I asked a question in the House today about the very issue of West Papua, where rainforests are being cut down and their products supposedly certified, but the products are actually counterfeit in terms of labelling. We need to close the gap. We need to stop the cowboy traders who are using a bloodthirsty trade\u2014because people die as a result of the counterfeit trading in illegal logging products; people in West Papua die as a result of standing up to protect those rainforests\u2014and we need a robust regulatory framework such as the Lacey Act, which has been brought in in the United States, and which makes the producers of timber and the people who retail timber products within countries accountable, not just at the border.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIt is good that this bill addresses the issues of customs, but I am not sure that the issues I have just talked about will be addressed, because this issue is about so much more than just a trademark. People can so easily manipulate other people into believing that something is sustainable and legal. Within this country we can have a certain amount of control and jurisdiction, but when we go outside our borders we find that it is an absolutely wild scene out there, particularly in relation to paper products and illegal logging. I was shocked to find that people in New Zealand in the 21st century are buying toilet paper made out of rainforests, when we know that without rainforests this planet will not survive, and when we know that people and 132 species a day are being lost because of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting the trademark and copyright legislation, but we ask for a deeper debate and a more robust definition of what is counterfeit. We must go below the surface; we must stand up for fair trade dealings. This is not about supporting free-trade deals; it is about saying we need to go through a chain of custody. We need to be able to work right back from the retailer of products in Aotearoa New Zealand to the land where those products come from. The day will come when we will be able to pick up an item and trace on it exactly who produced it, but we will need legislation in the meantime, and we will have to make those changes very robust because otherwise people will lie and people will die. That is the most important point I will make about the illegal and bloodthirsty trades that counterfeit as being genuine on this planet at this time. But we do support the bill, and we do see it as progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeebb982838640abb484efdecd540c31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c53e4642-d448-4d84-abfe-0443fe24aae9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeebb982838640abb484efdecd540c31\u0022\u003EHILARY CALVERT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to commend the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00228f1719db16e447e0b95404ef9cb41e14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f1719db16e447e0b95404ef9cb41e14\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to conclude the third readings of the Trade Marks Amendment Bill and the Copyright Amendment Bill (No 2). I want to come back to the important context that sits behind the passage of these two pieces of legislation that the Minister of Commerce has brought before the House. Part of that is the fact that one of the key priorities of the Government is actually enabling better cooperation and more consistent legal cooperation across the world. Basically what that does is reduce the costs of New Zealanders being able to trade in the global market. More specifically, another priority for the Government is, of course, to work far more closely with our Australian neighbour in the creation of a single economic market which, therefore, allows businesses to trade more simply and more seamlessly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn terms of the detail of these two bills, I will not take a long call because we have heard quite a lot about it, but I think it is worth pointing out, in terms of looking at the size of this world problem in counterfeit trade, that the World Trade Organization actually estimates that the size of the counterfeit trade across the world is at least 5 to 7 percent of all world trade. It is a significant issue and this legislation will take us a step forward in terms of being able to reduce the illegal trade. Because I was absolutely staggered and enthralled by the comments that Minister Williamson made around the harm that some of these counterfeit products cause, I thought it was worth going back to the harm that fakes can cause. There have been a number of expos\u00E9s in particular around counterfeit production of insulin drugs, which of course we know has disastrous effects and, with growing rates of both type 1 and type 2 diabetes, is a significant issue across the world. Our local GNS Science scientists were the ones who discovered what is in some of the counterfeit Viagra products. Minister Williamson confirmed it by his own computing device\u2014of course an original, not a fake\u2014to say that not only did the fake Viagra contain bird droppings but there were bat droppings as well, and other nasty ingredients like arsenic, hair, charcoal, and mercury. Those are some fairly good reasons why we would like to make sure we are able to crack down on some of these fakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI will not go through the details of the bill. On the other areas like the enforcement officers, my colleagues Hutchison and Dean, members of Parliament, spoke at length about the international treaties. That is why I am very pleased to finish this third reading on these two very important bills. It is another step forward as National creates a much stronger economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022949fde974c564b3884a1f17e15cc3ef5\u0022\u003ELocal Government Borrowing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c6cc995ef8e43bead27a538aa23daa0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288f5eb0af7764103a28fba1f6375cb09\u0022\u003EPart 1  New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed33f6b98804749815f8bc2624229f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed33f6b98804749815f8bc2624229f8\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We do not have long for this debate this afternoon, and that is a good thing, because there is a lot of consensus about the Local Government Borrowing Bill. There was good discussion at the Local Government and Environment Committee. One of two minor items were debated, but there was broad agreement, if I am not wrong, with the intent and the content of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is pretty clear. It is the recognition that debt is a necessary tool for local government in this country. A significant amount of ratepayers\u2019 funds are used for the cost of borrowing money, particularly for capital items. The Local Government Funding Agency, which this bill establishes, will save a significant amount for the ratepayer. There is some question, I think, about whether the amount of $25 million will in fact eventuate, given the fall in interest rates over recent times, but I think it will probably still save a significant sum. The Auckland Council alone estimates that this bill will save it about $10 million a year, and perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Local Government, might like to take a call and let us know what the latest estimates are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EPart 1 makes a number of legislative adjustments that will give lenders confidence that the Local Government Funding Agency is an institution that they can rely on and will reduce compliance costs for the agency. The Local Government Funding Agency will be borrowing offshore. The bill changes the Local Government Act to exempt the Local Government Funding Agency from the prohibition on local authorities borrowing in foreign currency. The funding agency will also provide a vehicle that will be able to make retail offerings to the so-called mum and dad investors in New Zealand, and that is another really positive benefit of this bill and this initiative. It will add to the efforts to deepen and strengthen New Zealand capital markets by giving mum and dad investors the opportunity to buy bonds and invest in New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister of Local Government on this bill. We have supported this bill all the way along, and we have supported the efforts to push it up the Order Paper to ensure that it would be progressed through all its stages and passed before the House rises for the general election. It is particularly important to note that the issue of debt raises different responses from parties across the political spectrum. Parties on the right tend to want to rise to the challenge of how we make the really significant investments that are needed in infrastructure by having recourse to privatisation and public-private partnerships. What we like about this mechanism is that it provides one alternative to those responses. It allows councils and ratepayers around New Zealand more of an opportunity to own their own future, and it mobilises the savings of New Zealanders to invest in water treatment plants, transport infrastructure, and all the necessary capital items that local governments have to invest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will leave it there as an opening statement, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00222578ce0204a84156b65b204a1c0290ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222578ce0204a84156b65b204a1c0290ae\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As Labour\u2019s spokesperson on local government, Phil Twyford, mentioned, we support the Local Government Borrowing Bill. Members heard something before that I thought I would never ever hear in this House. I thought I heard Phil Twyford praise Rodney Hide. I ask Mr Twyford whether I was right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c3b4e0c455d4afbb671fb7e9510a6ac\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223bfe3ec65a442cda10b2d444d5096f5\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Gee, so it must be good. It must be good. We do support this bill. There are a number of reasons why I support this bill. It makes common sense, and it is very pragmatic. In fact, it was probably one of ours before it came into the House. But one of the main reasons I support this bill is that I think it provides one of those models that could take the place of State asset sales. This allows people to go out there and invest money without selling equity, or it allows local authorities to raise money without having to sell off assets. This is particularly relevant, for example, to my colleague Brendon Burns, who has brought up many times in the media\u2014and I think even in this House in a number of speeches\u2014the concern that he has about the Christchurch City Council selling its assets to fund infrastructural development, redevelopment, and construction. I have no doubt that Mr Burns will be talking about this matter when he takes a call in a couple of minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe are talking about Part 1. This part facilitates the operation of the funding agency. As a consequence of that, and as a consequence, I suppose, of the unique nature of this legislation, in clause 3(2) a number of things have had to be set up to allow this agency to work in a manner that optimises its mandate. For example, paragraph (a) states that Part 1 \u201Cexempts the Funding Agency from certain regulatory or taxation criteria that would otherwise apply to it; and (b) applies certain regulatory or taxation criteria to the Funding Agency that would otherwise not apply to it;\u201D. I suppose that that shows the unique nature of this bill, and the fact that it is absolutely necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis agency will issue debt on behalf of all participating local authorities. If the cooperation and support from councils are sufficient, the agency will be expected to achieve a credit rating scale specialisation that will yield significant saving for the participating local authorities. I suppose that in the end that will not only save the sale of these council-owned assets but also allow councils to better manage limited resources. Hopefully, it may allow councils to drop their rates. I know, for example, that in the area I am from, Napier, the council has only about $4 million of debt, but the Hastings District Council has about $60 million of debt, which is expected to blow out to about $90 million of debt in 3 years. The cost to the ratepayer of financing that debt is extremely high, and, of course, every dollar that is spent on financing debt is money that cannot be spent on improving council infrastructure, building council assets, and basically making sure that the city is running. But it also means that councils have to levy ratepayers a much higher amount in order to finance their debt. So that is the second reason why I think this is a very good bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAlthough big is not always better, if participating local authorities are brought together, that allows economies of scale. This is one area where we can get those synergies that allow the benefits I have talked about. The operation of the funding agency will aid in the development of a liquid market in standardised local authority bonds. These will benefit retail and wholesale investors and be positive for the New Zealand capital markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIf there is one thing I have a concern about it is the lack of depth in our capital markets. I also say that the way to get that depth is not to sell our State assets but to sell these sorts of bonds. I suppose if people have a debt bond backed by a local authority, that provides opportunity for those sorts of what we call ma and pa investors, which I think is a misnomer, actually. People who want to invest in the stock market or in our capital markets will be able to invest. I assume that the bond will be quite a low-risk bond and quite a low-returning bond, but it will provide another option in the whole suite of options that are required to provide depth in our capital markets, which is hugely important. I think that with the collapse of finance companies we are now seeing people becoming more and more risk-averse, so this provides another option, which is great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe bill provides the funding agency with certain legislative entitlements and exemptions that will allow it to be treated as if it were a local authority, in terms of how it raises money\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u002227fbf738b1b446e18490f3e5b76d0b41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227fbf738b1b446e18490f3e5b76d0b41\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I join with my colleague Phil Twyford in acknowledging the role of the Minister of Local Government in bringing the Local Government Borrowing Bill to the House, and through the House. This bill may be the last bill he brings to the House, and I want to acknowledge that I think it is very sensible legislation. I acknowledge the good work he has done to bring it to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe bill is good, sensible legislation, because it embodies a collectivist approach. It uses what sometimes might be regarded as the collective power and might of a collection of local authorities\u2014not the power and might of the State\u2014to bring down the rates at which they borrow, and to pass those lower rates on to their ratepayers in order to get more done for their ratepayer dollars. That is a good option for local authorities, and when we consider some of the options and alternatives that are in the market place\u2014and in Government policy at the moment, such as asset sales\u2014I think this is a very sensible measure indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EMy colleague Stuart Nash picked up on a point that I was going to raise, and it is about one of the options that I think this bill might preclude\u2014one hopes\u2014but it is not clear. My city of Christchurch obviously faces enormous debt costs in respect of the earthquakes of the past year. A very fine plan for the rebuild has been released. It is a futuristic, focused plan from the city council, which has been put together by the city\u2019s planners in just 3 months, when normally a long-term plan like that would take some years. The estimate of the cost of the plan for the rebuild of the central business district alone, for the city council, is of the order of $2 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThat is a curious figure in one respect, because the Christchurch City Council also owns about $2 billion of assets. I applaud the council for its visionary plan, and I say that we need instruments like this bill to allow the council to borrow. Christchurch ratepayers are already facing a rates rise this year of about 7.1 percent\u20147.1 percent\u2014and about 1.5 percent of that is directly related to earthquake recovery costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EBut there is another option that I fear, which is that the city council will be forced to sell its assets by this Government. I would like to ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Local Government, whether he has been aware of any discussions in respect of that as this bill has been brought together. This bill embodies a sound principle around an entity like the Christchurch City Council being able to use the funding agency to borrow at competitive rates and to hold down the cost of rates increases for the good citizens of Christchurch as we try to fund our way through the enormous disaster that has befallen our city. As a matter of record, in the 2011 report on the estimates of the finance Minister, from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, there is in fact a recognition of the sale of Christchurch City Council assets as an alternative to the measures that this good bill introduces; it is there on the books. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAs the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee recorded, \u201CAs the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Act allows the sale of Christchurch City Council assets to fund the rebuilding of the city, we asked the Minister of Finance whether he could guarantee that this would not happen. The Minister said that this was a matter for the city council to decide. He added that the Government would discuss cost-sharing with the city council, but that it was important that the council have a stake in the process, which included sharing the costs, to ensure that value for money was achieved.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003ESo there on the record of the Parliament is the fact that the Minister of Finance has acknowledged that there is capacity under the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority legislation to require the sale of the city council\u2019s assets in Christchurch. I ask the Minister whether he can confirm for us, please, whether that issue was discussed as this bill was brought together. This bill is a sound, logical, sensible, pragmatic way to deal with the debts of Christchurch and other cities. Selling assets is a one-off sugar hit, and it carries enormous long-term costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThose assets in Christchurch have returned many hundreds of billions of dollars to our city. Orion\u2014the power network\u2014alone has provided a billion dollars in returns over the last 20 years. Even the Minister of Finance might acknowledge that that is a pretty formidable rate of return for any commercial organisation. The thought that my ratepayers and the citizens of Christchurch may face an option other than the one this good bill provides is a very, very scary prospect. I would like the Minister in the chair to comment on that at some point through the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227d547a8bcec2409c9b2552392e8ab048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d547a8bcec2409c9b2552392e8ab048\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is really good to be able to say something nice about the Government, and, in particular, about the ACT Party. It is a rare event. I think this Local Government Borrowing Bill is a mighty fine idea, and I would like to congratulate the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Local Government, on it. I welcome the speedy passage of the bill. The origin of it is something I know a little bit about, because we have had trouble with our capital markets for a long time. They have never been particularly deep, and we have had difficulties in many, many areas, especially in the private equity area. When I was Minister for Economic Development we established, yet again, a group to take a look at the issue of capital markets in New Zealand. One of its recommendations was this idea, and I believe it actually made it\u2014although I could have my history wrong\u2014through to the National Government\u2019s attention, if you will, by way of the Job Summit, immediately after the change of Government. Whatever its origin, and wherever it came from, it is a really mighty fine idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt is not a new idea. There is a bit of a health sector bank that exists. It does not go to the public to sell bonds, it does not raise money from mum and pop investors, but what it does do is keep the transaction costs for some financial activities of district health boards lower than they would otherwise be. Where district health boards have bridging finance issues, or they are buying and selling land, or they are dealing with Treaty settlements, or whatever, then having a bank for all district health boards is a hell of a lot cheaper than not. This idea, which is not a bank so much as a fund\u2014I understand the difference\u2014is none the less of a similar ilk. I just think that the Government should be congratulated on progressing it. I could get sniffy about the delay. It really is quite a long time, and quite a lot of savings will have been forgone as a result of that delay. But if the savings are worth $25 million, and I understand that is the estimate, then that is $25 million of impost that does not fall on ratepayers around the country, and that has got to be a good thing. It is just straightforwardly a good idea, and it is to be commended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EDifferent local authorities behave differently. Some of them are well-to-do and some of them are not. For example, Dunedin, at the moment, is characterised by an awful lot of local authority trading enterprise activity and by an awful lot of debt. Some of it was occasioned by the recent construction of the stadium. Indeed, pushing out that debt to a 40-year horizon, instead of a 20-year horizon, is currently being debated by the good burghers of Dunedin. I do not think they will do it. I think the interest costs will be just too high. But this bill, with this idea, takes their problem and makes it a fractional bit less, and it is really excellent. We just heard from Brendon Burns, a member from a city that is in incredible stress in the form of Christchurch. We heard the member for Christchurch Central tell us about the difference it will make for his region, and other regions. The next one up the line from Dunedin is Waitaki. Waitaki frankly does not have a level of indebtedness. It is really rather well-to-do, albeit rather small. So the difference will vary around the country, but, none the less, it is a great idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt does occur to me that there is no particular reason why the idea should stop there. As I think through different parts of the economy, I kind of find myself alighting on tertiary education as an area that may enjoy a similar arrangement. As it happens, most universities do not have any debt. In fact, the only one with a lot of debt is the Auckland University of Technology. But nearly every polytech does, and I just think that we should look at the possibility of extending that facility into other parts of what one might call the broader public sector. I might be wrong, and financial analysis is no strength of mine, but I know, having been the Minister for Tertiary Education, that some tertiary education institutions do face considerable financial pressure with their indebtedness, and, of course, the Tertiary Education Commission likes to maintain interest cover ratios, and all sorts of things at certain levels. It would be the case, I am sure, that some mum and dad investors would be very open to the idea of responding to bonds issued in respect of the tertiary sector, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe idea need not stop at local government, but the next thing, of course, is to make sure that it can start at local government. That means the passage of the legislation and it then means the establishment of a fund. I do not know whether the Government will put any more money into it. I think $5 million has gone in\u2014the Minister of Local Government will tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e483e0a39eac4e9b8754636d3b47e2e5\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s $5 million allocated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b7b6ce2a43438fad4171be4a7f6139\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is about to go in\u2014OK. I do not know whether the Minister is of the mood; it is up to him, but he might want to tell us whether he thinks that that is the right sum and, if so, why, and whether he thinks the Government should be doing any more than that. There is a really good case for not doing so, but, then again, if the fund is to be able to be administered, it has to have some capital. I do not know whether the Minister is of the mood, but I will resume my seat in the fond hope that the Minister will give us some idea of what he thinks the role of the Government will be in the case of this fund. I have no particular prejudices about it myself, but it would be interesting to hear about his thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002285aae4f5baa041be9853bc3d0b2dd727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285aae4f5baa041be9853bc3d0b2dd727\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E To answer the member Pete Hodgson\u2019s question, the Government has set aside $5 million. It will have a shareholding stake in proportion to that $5 million. The money has not been put in yet, other than $950,000 as part of the costs of setting it up. The councils themselves have put in a substantial amount of money as a set-up. The councils will put in $20 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00a394a9db84cbf9d5ce6b1c447d0f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00a394a9db84cbf9d5ce6b1c447d0f6\u0022\u003EIAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I will add to the positive comments of my colleagues about the Local Government Borrowing Bill, particularly Part 1, which establishes the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency Ltd. I suppose this is a type of third way approach. There is either public spending by councils themselves or, of course, the alternative approach, which is to privatise assets or to go into public-private partnerships. This is an excellent idea. I believe it is a mighty fine idea, as I think Pete Hodgson probably said at some point in his contribution. It not only ensures that councils can borrow for their own infrastructure that they ultimately will own themselves and that allows those councils to own their own future, but it also gives New Zealanders an investment vehicle that is reasonably safe and helps to deepen our pool of capital available here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EI suppose that is what brings me to ask a question of the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Local Government, about clause 7. I am happy to admit that I come to this debate very much as a layman when it comes to these matters. I suppose I am going to ask a question to which there will be a very clear and easy answer, but I think it is a question that any New Zealander would ask about this legislation. Clause 7 states: \u201CPart 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989 does not apply to the Funding Agency.\u201D Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act has a number of sections in it. Part 5D refers to deposit takers and, specifically, in section 157I, the fact that deposit takers such as the funding agency that is being established under Part 1 of the bill must have a current credit rating. Section 157I states: \u201CA deposit taker must have a current rating of its creditworthiness, or, if required by regulations made under section 157K, the creditworthiness of the borrowing group of which the deposit taker is part, that\u2014(a) complies with the requirements prescribed by regulations made under section 157K; and (b) is given by an approved rating agency.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EPutting to one side the fact that the credibility of ratings agencies is, I suppose, a bit iffy, shall we say, in the second decade of the 21st century, I think what New Zealanders will want to know, having put their money into finance companies\u2014and some people have taken some serious losses there\u2014is what certainty they have in investing in an agency like the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency if it does not have a credit rating. Is there a mechanism by which the Government provides that certainty? Is there an alternative mechanism to a credit agency rating that gives people who want to invest in that funding agency some concept of the risk that is involved in investing in that agency and of how secure that agency is? I am quite certain that at this stage of the bill, having been through the Local Government and Environment Committee, there is an easy answer to this question. But I am very keen to hear what the answer is from the Minister, because I think that what we are trying to do here is to provide not just a source of capital for local government but also a safe and secure investment vehicle that we might be able to encourage more New Zealanders to invest in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003EWe know that we do not have a great savings track record in this country. We have a very heavy reliance on foreign capital, and that is because we do not have deep capital pockets here in New Zealand. So anything that encourages people to save more and to invest more in New Zealand\u2019s own infrastructure is, I think, a good thing. But I suspect that that might pose a barrier for people who want to directly invest their money by purchasing these bonds. If the funding agency does not have a credit agency rating against it, then that might prove to be a barrier. We want to make sure that there are as few barriers as possible to encouraging people to invest in these bonds, so that the money is available for local government. I know from feedback from my own city council\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002266715094b8394b1fbbec4a151386506e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266715094b8394b1fbbec4a151386506e\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Let me do my best to answer Mr Lees-Galloway\u2019s questions. The first thing is that the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency will succeed only if it does have a credit rating. As the member will see in the Local Government Borrowing Bill, the issue with the credit rating is that the fund is guaranteed by all the local councils that together enter into it. It actually has a very, very strong balance sheet in there as a consequence of that, so people can have some considerable confidence. But one would not get away with not having a credit rating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe issue with the Reserve Bank exemption relates to the level of capital it needs to hold compared with a bank. Obviously, because it has that guarantee of the balance sheet of the councils, it can get away with a lower ratio compared with, say, a bank that is just dealing in normal loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022459b8528ffcd43c79ad318ff56d4f491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022459b8528ffcd43c79ad318ff56d4f491\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Local Government for explaining that. It was actually one of the issues I was going to bring up in terms of the credit rating, and how it will be properly established. I think, as the Minister said, with more than 80 local bodies investing into this, the huge amount of infrastructure, and, obviously, the rating potential that they have, they are likely to attract an AAA rating, which would bring down the cost of borrowing and be good for them as a whole. It is almost a virtuous circle in the sense of working in that particular way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI just wanted to reiterate some of the comments of my colleagues that the Labour Party will, obviously, be supporting this bill. I also want to praise the bill in terms of what it will actually be doing. Certainly, in looking at the Auckland situation and the sort of infrastructure that we are looking at needing there to ensure that we move along in the way that we would like it to go, we see it will need a source of funds that enables the Auckland Council to move in that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency will be able to issue debt\u2014and that is what Part 1 in particular speaks to\u2014on behalf of all participating local authorities. If the cooperation and support of those councils is sufficient, the funding agency would be expected to achieve, as I said before, a very high credit rating, and, therefore, save\u2014I think the estimate is, at the moment, certainly according to the regulatory impact statement\u2014about $25 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBut that is only the beginning of the benefits of this type of scheme. There are other benefits, not only to the councils but also to New Zealand as a whole, as well. They stem from the ability of investors\u2014ratepayers, if you like\u2014to invest in a bond market that will actually invest in people\u2019s own future, the future of the very communities in which people live. That is also to be commended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI will also reiterate a couple of things that the Minister touched on, as well, which is that the Government would take a minority stake and, as I understand, it would not be guaranteeing the viability of this organisation, because in a sense it is actually guaranteed by the eight or more local councils that put money into it. But the Government will take a minority equity stake by putting $5 million of seed funding into the proposal. As the Minister said, it is not yet there, but we understand that it will be coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIt will also allow the ability for the Auckland Council to borrow in foreign currencies, which comes more into Part 2. But it is an important point for the Auckland Council, which, as I said before, is looking at an extraordinary amount of capital that needs to be raised to be able to meet the needs that are coming up. I speak to one particular need, which is the inner-city transport link, or the rail link, that Auckland will need, which seems to be getting, at best, lukewarm support from this Government\u2014in fact, \u201Clukewarm\u201D is probably a massive exaggeration, if we listened to Steven Joyce in the House at question time today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThese sorts of moves for the Auckland Council are extraordinarily important, because Auckland grows at a rate of one Wellington City about every 8 years. I do not think that people quite understand that between now and 2030 Auckland will have grown by exactly an entire Wellington City, and more, and for that reason it needs to be able to access sufficient capital to enable that infrastructure to be built\u2014particularly the transport infrastructure, and particularly the transport infrastructure around rail and public transport, because right now the roading network, which has been funded largely by central Government, is effectively complete. There is actually very little of the motorways\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00223d493625589c44dbbc36ecf4157bd427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d493625589c44dbbc36ecf4157bd427\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00228f10a6a2f1e5429fbc65b2b165ddecc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f10a6a2f1e5429fbc65b2b165ddecc3\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call. I have some ever so slight concerns with regard to the funding agency being exempt from Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act. My concerns are based on this: Part 5D of the Act sets out a whole lot of requirements that financial institutions must take into account: things like, for example, capital ratios, credit ratings\u2014which the Minister has talked about, and the agency will have to have some sort of credit rating, because no one will invest in it if it does not have a credit rating\u2014liquidity ratios, minimum capital requirements, and limits on related party exposures. Maybe the limited party exposure provision is the reason why the agency is exempt. One of the major things that I think is important about Part 5(D) of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act is that it requires financial institutions to have a risk management strategy. I know that that is part of good financial management anyway, and I am assuming that any sort of funding agency will have a risk management strategy in place, but this part actually takes that off the table and does not make it a requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to know\u2014and obviously this agency is not Government-backed but backed by local authorities\u2014is what the risk is of a local authority not being able to service that debt. How will it be passed on to the rest of the local authorities? I mentioned the Hastings District Council before. It has about $65 million worth of debt; I am not saying it has any liquidity problems, at all. But what happens if one of these local authorities cannot meet its obligations? Does that mean that the rest of the local authorities will actually have to pick up that and carry that risk? When I read this bill, I initially thought that this would be low risk but low return, and that is fine. As Pete Hodgson talked about, and as I mentioned before, we need depth in our capital markets. But when I look at the bill I think that maybe the risk is not as low as I initially thought\u2014firstly, because of the exemption of Part 5D, and, secondly, because some of these councils have quite a bit of debt. How will that be apportioned? How will that be allocated? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAnother thing I will talk about\u2014Pete Hodgson mentioned this, and I talked about it when I first spoke on this bill\u2014is the ability of New Zealanders to invest through the bond market in infrastructure assets. Pete Hodgson talked about the university sector, for example. I worked at the Auckland University of Technology as its director of strategic development. Pete Hodgson talked about this institution having quite a high debt level. When I was there we talked about how great it would be if we could actually issue bonds. We cannot do that, under law. In fact, no Government agencies can issue bonds, under law, at the moment, but I think, maybe, that this bill is the start of this whole market being opened up, and the depth it could possibly provide is fantastic. It is fantastic. I think Canterbury\u2019s bond offer\u2014the Westpac one\u2014fell over, did it not? Well, having this sort of bill in place could provide so many more options for investors to invest in key infrastructure assets without their having to go to the sharemarket, and without our having to sell our State-owned assets. This is a good idea, but I would like the Minister just to comment on it, in relation to the liability carried by that fund for those that default. This basically relates to clause 10, \u201CAdditional requirements to be specified in local authority\u2019s financial strategy\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe other thing I was a little bit mystified about\u2014members could correct me, because I did not sit on the select committee; it is a pretty easy question\u2014is clause 9, \u201CExemption from prohibitions and restrictions applying to council-controlled trading organisations\u201D. Clause 9(1) states: \u201CThis section applies only if the Funding Agency is also a council-controlled trading organisation.\u201D Does that mean there is a possibility that this funding agency will be a council-controlled funding agency, or not? There is a little bit of confusion here. I read the bill and I think there will be only one funding agency. Is there a possibility that there will be another funding agency? Will there be two: one that manages Auckland bond issues and one that does the rest of the country\u2019s bond issues? I am not too sure. Perhaps the Minister can just clarify that for me. Clause 9(2) states: \u201Ca local authority may give a guarantee, an indemnity, or a security in respect of the performance of any obligation by the Funding Agency.\u201D I would have thought that this would not apply just to a council-controlled agency; I would have thought that if any council or local authority is raising money through a bond issue, then it will have to provide some sort of security. Again, I wonder whether this exemption from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b439b45e2e5c435f8fabe586d8b8a0c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b439b45e2e5c435f8fabe586d8b8a0c0\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I will reply to Mr Nash\u2019s questions. I want him to appreciate the underlying principle here of the exemption of the funding agency to Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989, which is that local councils are exempt from Part 5D. So if they are exempt from Part 5D, it would be odd to put a collective vehicle of local councils together and make it subject to Part 5D, because that would hobble the thing, relative to their raising their own money. The whole point is to keep the regulatory regime the same as if the funding agency was a council, because effectively that is what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn terms of a council defaulting, of course that debt would then be carried by the other councils. That is implicit in the nature of what is being proposed. In fact, it is that collectivity of the debt that actually gives the advantages being sought. The thing I would point out is that I do not think we have any experience of a local council ever defaulting. If we think about that for a minute\u2014a council in New Zealand has never defaulted. If we wrap up a vehicle that represents them all, the chances of the funding agency defaulting are unimaginable in the New Zealand setting of financial regulation and management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022269515e43e584747998d9e09248528f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022269515e43e584747998d9e09248528f2\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take up the issues that Stuart Nash was raising. It is absolutely true, as the Minister of Local Government has clarified, that all participating local councils will be required to guarantee each other\u2019s debts. So if one council were to default, all would have to pay. But I notice that the Government would not be liable. The Government may contribute, I believe, 5 percent for the first 10 years, but the Government will not be liable; only the councils will be liable. The Minister has said we should not worry, because it is extremely unlikely that councils will default. I agree that it is unlikely that councils would default. It is unlikely because they can always raise the rates to pay for increases in debt if they find themselves in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHowever, it is not unimaginable. We have had the situation in Canterbury, which was unimaginable. We could have further situations. We could have one right here in Wellington. We could be in a situation where there are defaulting councils. What worries me is that I do not think most ratepayers are aware that their councils are signing up to this new funding agency. Although there is a requirement that councils inform the ratepayers through their financial statement, the reality is that most ratepayers do not really look at the fine print of the financial statement. I would expect that a lot of ratepayers have no idea that this is going on and no idea of their joint liability through this new funding agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EDo not get me wrong; the Green Party is supporting the Local Government Borrowing Bill, but we do have some qualms about it. The other one is that once there is cheaper borrowing, which essentially this bill is all about, the temptation will be to increase borrowing, particularly when we are in a situation where councils do not want to put up the rates. We are in a very tight financial situation, and it would be politically unacceptable for most councils to put up the rates in any substantial way. But we have a problem with some councils like the Auckland Council having to make substantial investments\u2014in particular, in public transport. Although the Government will pay 100 percent for roads and motorways, it will pay only 50 percent for public transport, so if a local council wants to develop public transport, it has to invest 50 percent of the cost of any major public transport initiative. Substantial investment needs to be made, and the temptation will be to do all of it through debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThere is an argument that if we come up with some major infrastructure\u2014like, say, a new rail loop\u2014we can spread the debt over generations. That is fine. But I fear that the temptation will be not to put up the rates, because that will be politically unacceptable and the councillors will all be voted out of office, but to just keep putting everything off and piling it up into this debt mechanism. In time, we could end up with more and more council debt and a blowout of council debt. Down the road\u2014say, 10 years hence\u2014we could find this funding agency with huge debts and we could find some councils defaulting. We could find ourselves in a situation where everyone will ask how it happened, because no one told them that they had signed up to this entity, and no one really consulted them. So we have some real concerns about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe think there needs to be much greater awareness amongst ratepayers, and much greater understanding of what we are getting into here, of the joint liability, and of the fact that if any participating authority defaults, the debt will be shared. People need to be going into this with their eyes open. Let us hope this does not end up inadvertently triggering greater and greater amounts of council debt accumulating over the next 10 years because we have made debt cheaper through this mechanism. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e93f79cdb89a4d908b1a42aae254d62e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e93f79cdb89a4d908b1a42aae254d62e\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I think Sue Kedgley makes a very important point\u2014and it becomes a general one for councils\u2014that councils do enter into investments and take on debt largely without the awareness of ratepayers. They can actually delay the impost of the consequences of that investment or that debt for some years, and we are now having to deal with some councils that are being forced to put up rates. It can actually also be just the cost of a running down of general infrastructure that gets pushed forward. I accept that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat we have attempted to do there is that, with the changes that we made to the Local Government Act, we require councils from the next election onwards to put out a financial report in plain English. We are hoping that through that report, local media and interested citizens can get a much greater sense of the true financial state of their council at the time when it is most valuable to them\u2014that is, the time that they are actually voting\u2014and also of the challenges that that council confronts. I think if we had had that reporting procedure some years back, we might not have got ourselves into some trouble with councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is also the case that if we lower the cost of the debt, we might expect more of it. But bear in mind that there will be considerable discipline on the funding agency, because it will be representing all the councils. It will not be just sitting there like an ATM handing out money for whatever particular project a council might come up with. It will actually look with scrutiny at the debt, because it will be carried by all the councils together. In a way, one of my worries as Minister observing it is that quite a small council that may not be very sophisticated\u2014we quite like the small councils, because they represent the community; we have nothing particularly against them\u2014can easily find itself borrowing on some rather unfortunate investments that get pushed into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EInterestingly, in going off to the funding agency, councils will actually have proper scrutiny because the people they are borrowing from are the other councils. In a funny way they will have a better understanding of, and more information about, the situation of local councils than might otherwise be the case. Sure, a particular bank will lend to a council, because it knows that the council can just put rates up into the future. So we may, through this funding agency, actually have a greater discipline, particularly with the smaller councils that may not have that level of sophistication that a larger council would have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00222206d60336b94a2d865c0bbd7b164f10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222206d60336b94a2d865c0bbd7b164f10\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Local Government for making that very interesting point about the extra discipline that will be brought to bear on smaller councils that seek to borrow funds through the new agency. One of the reasons that I think this bill is so worthy of support is that it is another way that small councils\u2014particularly rural and provincial councils, which have been really struggling with the demands of investing in their local infrastructure\u2014can, by tapping into the collective, get the critical mass and the ability to make those investments. It is not unlike the approach to shared services that some councils have been successfully taking. It gives those smaller councils a pathway that avoids some of the difficulties associated with amalgamation. There is no doubt that a lot of those smaller rural councils are facing considerable pressure to amalgamate. As we know, and as we have debated many times in this House, bigger is not always better, and there are real downsides in terms of representation\u2014in terms of local voice and governance\u2014particularly when smaller and dispersed communities are forced into bigger governance units. That, I suppose, is one of the big dilemmas in the local government sector today. The Local Government Borrowing Bill actually offers those councils one way out of that dilemma. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI really appreciated the discussion earlier from Stuart Nash, Iain Lees-Galloway, and the Minister around clause 7 in Part 1 and the implications of Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act not applying to the funding agency. I appreciated the Minister\u2019s explanation of that. I suppose the underlying principle of this bill is that it is appropriate to treat the Local Government Funding Agency as if it were a local authority. That is the basis on which it is exempted from Part 5D. When Part 5D was put into the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act originally, local authorities were exempted from it. Clause 7 simply makes this bill consistent with that principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think it is worth noting the reasons why it is logical to treat the funding agency as if it were a local authority. There are a number of reasons, and Local Government New Zealand summarised them quite nicely in its submission to the Local Government and Environment Committee. The agency\u2019s function is to borrow money and lend that to local authorities. It is therefore merely a vehicle for local authorities to borrow collectively. The credit risk faced by lenders is of a similar nature to the credit risk that is faced by lenders to local authorities, because the agency\u2019s debtors will be local authorities themselves. The money that is being borrowed will be applied to exactly the same purposes as money borrowed directly by local authorities. To the extent that any funds are passed on to any entity that is not a local authority\u2014that is, in the form of dividends\u2014that entity will be the Crown, because the Crown is the only shareholder of the agency that is not a local authority. The Crown, of course, is also exempt from Part 5D of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe other related issue is the question of clause 9, which exempts the agency from prohibitions and restrictions that apply to council-controlled trading organisations. We heard at the select committee that it is arguable that the funding agency will fall within the definition of a council-controlled trading organisation under the Local Government Act 2002. If it does, there are a couple of consequences. Firstly, section 62 of the Local Government Act will apply to it, which prohibits local authorities from guaranteeing the agency\u2019s debt, and, secondly, section 63 of the Local Government Act may prevent local authorities from lending subordinated debt to the funding agency. Clause 9 eliminates the risk that either\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00221cfc89891772475d94472c81ec529fee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cfc89891772475d94472c81ec529fee\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to Mr Twyford\u2019s comments. I think he is right, just on the broader aspect. This is an example, if you like, of Parliament helping with the shared service. I think that when we look ahead, if we do amalgamate or change jurisdiction, we want to do it for governance reasons, not for cost reasons. I think there is a bit of pressure coming on councils as we pile more functions on as times get tougher. People say: \u201CWell, let\u2019s amalgamate.\u201D, but we are actually trying to amalgamate to save money, rather than for the reason of good governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe more that I have been involved in the sector, the more it has become apparent to me that there are huge opportunities for shared services, thereby dramatically reducing the costs for individual councils, and indeed for improving their performance. We can have a whole lot of little councils trying to maintain a very sophisticated operation, each on their own. Even if they have the money, often trying to attract the necessary personnel is quite tough. There is certainly a greater enthusiasm in Local Government New Zealand and within councils to start talking about shared services. We need to think, as a Parliament and as future Governments, about what the role is and what the barriers are to facilitating those opportunities, where councils agree that it is a smart thing to do. Hopefully, that will be part of the review that we have set up with the Smarter Government, Stronger Communities project. We can look at that, because there is definitely a huge potential, of which this bill is a part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u002280a42f23fb2049cdb6d86042330ea279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280a42f23fb2049cdb6d86042330ea279\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take my first call on the Local Government Borrowing Bill. I want to speak to Part 1, which is the part that sets up the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency and is, of course, the meaty part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI do want to profess that as I am not a member of the Local Government and Environment Committee, I probably have more questions than answers in terms of this Local Government Funding Agency and what it can be used for. I say at the outset that it seems to me that the one thing that might help the funding agency would be the implementation of a capital gains tax. Why do I say that? Well, it seems to me that if we were to level the playing field for how New Zealand investors choose to invest their money, then perhaps they would look more kindly at this. Perhaps it would have lots of New Zealand investors, who otherwise invest in property and the sorts of things where they can have basically tax-free profit at the moment. If we had a capital gains tax, I think this would become more attractive to investors. Perhaps they would be looking more to investing in a vehicle such as this, in order to improve local infrastructure, or whatever it might be. That would be my opening comment. I think this bill could sit alongside a number of other policies that are being debated, literally as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EBut my questions are about the sorts of things that ratepayers and residents are debating all the time in their communities. At the moment in Hamilton, and in the greater Waikato, actually, we have quite a debate occurring, and I know that Iain Lees-Galloway will be very interested in this debate, about funding a velodrome for the Waikato. This proposal has come through from Sport and Recreation New Zealand, which is a Government-funded agency. Sport and Recreation New Zealand has a lump of money that it wants to put into the project and it has chosen Waikato as being the preferred option for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022490ccdbf-7c22-4e12-98f2-f3aa08f8e676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e478af6a24474feaaaa3e3e43cf766e8\u0022\u003EIain Lees-Galloway\u003C/span\u003E: Outrageous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c215470e35b4d17924de89a2a810b8e\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Iain Lees-Galloway is outraged, because Palmerston North is, of course, another city that bid for exactly the same project. But here is the part that I know he will like: I am opposing the ratepayer funding of the velodrome project for the Waikato. I know that Iain Lees-Galloway will be very pleased that I am doing that, and so are local ratepayers, I might say. Although Sport and Recreation New Zealand and BikeNZ might think this is the ideal location for a velodrome, it is the poor old ratepayers who will be asked to stump up for a velodrome that will cost $28.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThat might not seem like a great deal of money, but currently in Hamilton the ratepayers are facing an 8 percent increase in their rates. They are not too keen to have more rates lumped on top of them as well. Also in Hamilton we have just recently experienced a $30 million contribution to hosting the V8 Supercars event. The cost was originally supposed to be $13 million, but it has blown out to $30 million. So there are a number of reasons why ratepayers in Hamilton and the surrounding areas are asking some serious questions. They are asking \u201CWell, hang on, haven\u2019t we funded enough of people\u2019s pet projects?\u201D. If people have pet projects like a velodrome, which, let us face it, will not be used by the vast proportion of the population\u2014cycling in a velodrome is an elite sport\u2014why should Hamilton ratepayers be funding them? Those are the questions that some local ratepayers are asking, and I think they are really valid questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIn regard to this bill, my questions are around that. Some people are asking why those bike enthusiasts who want to race around a velodrome and not just ride around streets, a cycleway, or anything else we might choose to invest in do not fund a velodrome if they really want it. They ask why they do not spend their money on it. The question I want to ask is whether this is a vehicle where that could happen. Could the group of people who want to see this go ahead actually put money into this funding agency and say that they want it to be used for a loan for a specific project? The question I really have is about some clarity as to whether that could happen. My guess is that the answer is probably no in terms of transparency, accountability, and those sorts of issues, but I would like some clarity on that, because, as I say, it is an issue that we are facing in the Waikato as we speak. If such a fund is used for a venture like the velodrome\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9f00d4245fc4a7a8d17c3702ed2b9c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9f00d4245fc4a7a8d17c3702ed2b9c2\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ddd42e983315464c8311d6e7ae7196fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000401\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e622a04608524935beb985d980f84829\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdabf09087584905b99ae1e32d1b6755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdabf09087584905b99ae1e32d1b6755\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for his ongoing response to the questions that members on this side of the Chamber have been putting. It is a good example to us of how Parliament should work and is, from time to time, known to work. I hope we can continue in that vein. This part, of course, is in respect of the provisions for the new Auckland Council to borrow in foreign currencies. We know that the Government has another set of proposals around asset sales. The proposition there is that mum and dad investors will be those who buy those assets. The question I want to put to the Minister is this: where is the capital likely to be coming from for the Auckland Council? If it is the case that it is able to borrow in foreign currency, is Treasury advising the Minister and the Reserve Bank that that is where the Auckland Council is likely to be taking most of its borrowing from? If that is the case, ipso facto it would suggest that that is the most likely market for other sources of investment. I think we know that at the moment the Chinese Government, for one, is contributing a fair amount of the Government\u2019s debt profile and, obviously, in a situation where we are a debtor nation, we have to be grateful for whatever sources we can rely on for capital. But I think New Zealanders would like some indication of where the Auckland Council is likely to be obtaining its capital from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister indicated in the last part that the collective way in which the rest of the funding agency works provides some sort of inherent protection, and I want to know how that relates to the Auckland Council in respect of any borrowing that it does offshore, because although I think we know that local government in this country is very broad and soundly based, it is not unknown for councils to get into trouble. I think of cities like Lille in Belgium, which many years ago went bankrupt after high borrowing. Also we are now seeing cities in North America where the rating values have absolutely dropped as factories have moved offshore and the rating bases have dropped to maybe 10 or 20 percent of what their value had been perhaps a decade ago. It has caused enormous problems for some communities in North America. We are not in that prospect, but in the spirit of cooperation we have been having, members would like to know the likely debt profile that Auckland City will be entering into. Where is the capital likely to be coming from? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI raise this concern, too. While we are a debtor nation the best thing we can do is, where possible, create capital internally. Quite a lot of effort is going on at the moment to raise capital. I think of the University of Canterbury, which has been in the market quite recently to try to raise funds for its institution. Obviously, we have huge costs relating to the debts coming out of the Christchurch earthquakes. There will be a big demand upon capital. What will Auckland be competing against in terms of the provision of that capital? Obviously we have seen announcements from the Earthquake Commission in the last few weeks that effectively its coffers have run dry in respect of any further major natural disaster. That will be putting pressure upon debt programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIt is a difficult time for us as a nation in respect of borrowing, when we have those various pressures upon us. Auckland obviously has a huge infrastructure demand that needs to develop and grow. Hopefully, a lot of the funding it will be raising under Part 2 will be put towards public transport programmes to assist Auckland to be a viable and sustainable city into the future, rather than endless building of motorways, with all of the climate change implications they bring. I would like the Minister to comment just briefly upon the likely source of capital that the Auckland Council will be likely to attract. Where is it going to be coming from? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EI guess the final comment I would make in respect of this is that every dollar that we borrow offshore\u2014and we need to borrow many\u2014carries with it an additional cost. Next week the Reserve Bank governor will announce his latest position on interest rates. The signals are that the market will hold but at some point interest rates will rise, and every time we import capital and it repatriates back out, that keeps our interest rates high and our dollar high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00222d6b556f112c4210948e5e40e80fe211\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d6b556f112c4210948e5e40e80fe211\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E It would be inappropriate for me, I say to Mr Burns, to suggest what the debt profile could be, should be, or would be for a particular council or the Local Government Funding Agency. Let me just explain the Auckland situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat we have done is to take four large councils and combine them with four other councils into one. The situation was that the New Zealand capital market could not actually fund the debt of that new council, so the council needed to be in a position, whether or not we had this funding agency, to be able to go offshore. Secondly, because it is such a large council, if it could borrow offshore only through the funding agency, the funding agency would be unduly exposed to one council. So we had to provide for both mechanisms. It was always the intention from day one, once we had an understanding of the debt requirements of the new Auckland Council, to allow it to borrow offshore. But we were very pleased that the council and then Mayor Len Brown committed to the funding agency, because it actually helps the whole system to hold. That was one of the issues that we needed to address in setting up the funding agency\u2014that it would have sufficient support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me acknowledge the new Auckland Council and, indeed, Mayor Len Brown for their commitment to Local Government New Zealand and to local government throughout New Zealand. They understand that although their council is very large and, for so much, could go out on its own, it would be counter-productive for Auckland and counter-productive for New Zealand if it basically said to heck with the other councils and just did its own thing. The council has been very committed to being an active participant in, for example, Local Government New Zealand, so that the smaller councils do not get left behind, and, indeed, it has been committed to the funding agency. We certainly appreciate that as Aucklanders and as New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022de2e043cfc5c40e68abd65dc44aee712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de2e043cfc5c40e68abd65dc44aee712\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I appreciate those comments from the Minister of Local Government. The new Auckland Council, with $28 billion of assets and a debt profile of about $3 billion or a little more perhaps, obviously will have needs far and away in excess of any other local council. It makes sense that this bill, the Local Government Borrowing Bill, has the sort of flexibility structured in that will allow the Auckland Council to go offshore in its own right to borrow the funds it needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI am interested to know\u2014and I do not know whether the Minister knows this\u2014what share of the borrowing by the Local Government Funding Agency is expected to end up with the Auckland Council. Presumably, the Auckland Council will borrow some funds from the funding agency but also will be going offshore in its own right. I am interested to know what the proportions are likely to be. As Brendon Burns suggested, Auckland will need some significant capital investment in the coming decade or so if it is going to reach the sort of aspirations that the country has for it, and that Aucklanders have for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe city rail link, which has been hotly debated in this House in recent times, will cost between $1.5 billion and $2 billion. There is a whole debate about how the city rail link should be funded, and I think that mum and dad investors in Auckland would probably see it as well worth supporting and investing in. There are a number of other mechanisms\u2014councils have the ability to raise money in various ways\u2014but borrowing through the funding agency would be a pretty desirable way to contribute to the cost of that. It is a shame that Steven Joyce does not see the city rail link as worth investing in for Auckland\u2019s future, because I am sure most Aucklanders would see it as well worth investing in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think it makes sense that the Auckland Council has the ability to go offshore in its own right. We heard at the Local Government and Environment Committee that because of the size of Auckland Council\u2019s borrowing requirements and the undesirability of the funding agency lending so disproportionately to one council, it makes sense for it to be able to borrow offshore. The Auckland Council told us\u2014really assured us, I suppose\u2014that the borrowing would be undertaken on a fully hedged basis and that it has the capacity, through its treasury unit, to minimise the risk to the Auckland ratepayer. On this side of the House, we are very comfortable with the provisions in Part 2. If the Minister is able to tell us anything about the likely share of Auckland Council\u2019s lending\u2014no, all right then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00229afa28443787419f9b22da45e342e8ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229afa28443787419f9b22da45e342e8ce\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Twyford and the Minister of Local Government have actually outlined some of the points I had, but there are a couple of other points I would like to make in this Committee stage of the Local Government Borrowing Bill. I agree that Auckland is now so large that it needs to own its own future. It has to have the ability to go offshore, because the depth of our capital markets is just not big enough for it. I understand that. I suppose the Auckland City treasury will have to determine itself how much money it wants to put into the rating agency versus how much it wants to borrow on the back of its own council. It would be interesting to know how much it would do that because, again, as the Minister alluded to, I suppose the funding agency will be reasonably dependent upon the level of funding the Auckland Council can put into that, and therefore the scale or the rating the funding agency will have in itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are two points I would like to make and two, not really questions, but reasonably significant points in my mind. The first one is the report to shareholders and stakeholders. The Auckland Council is responsible to well over 1 million people, who pay the rates and who will service this debt. I think it is up to the Auckland Council to make absolutely sure that the ratepayers and the stakeholders know exactly what the Auckland Council is doing and what its policy is. Mr Twyford mentioned that the Auckland City treasury has said it will undertake a fully hedged strategy, and I agree with that. But let me give members a couple of examples, because I think that currency risk is now huge. This adds another risk on top of all the other risks that councils have to manage. I know, for example, and the Minister himself might remember, that when the New Zealand dollar was about US70c at one stage\u2014this was late last century\u2014it plummeted. It went from about US65c down to about US50c in about 6 months. Carter Holt Harvey was, I think, New Zealand\u2019s second or third-largest company at the time. Its treasury had a hedging strategy, but it also played the currency markets to a certain extent. It lost literally millions and millions of dollars trying to bet on the New Zealand currency, which it had no idea about. There were jokes going around about how to play the currency markets. One was that we ask 10 economists and we go with what the minority says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe bottom line, I suppose, what I am trying to say, is that no one knows how to play the currency markets and win. It is a little bit like putting it on black at the casino: one wins sometimes; one does not win at other times. This is a risk. I think\u2014and I would really like to know but I do not think that the Minister can tell me, because it is an operational matter\u2014that the Auckland Council must tell its ratepayers how it is going to manage. I remember that I went to a seminar once that was conducted by Deutsche Bank, which was at the time\u2014well, it still is\u2014one of the largest banks in the world. This seminar was for small to medium sized business owners. The advice from the head of Deutsche Bank at the time in terms of overseas trading in US dollars was that he would hedge 50 percent and then he would play the currency markets with the other 50 percent. I was astounded that a banker could give this advice to business people who relied on the margin of the deal being done. He was basically advising these people to play the currency markets, and it was astounding that he would give that sort of advice. This is why we have to be very careful and we have to have a very good understanding of the strategy that the Auckland Council will take in terms of borrowing in foreign funds. I have no doubt that at some stage a smart banker will stand up at council and say that if it had not hedged at US83c as the dollar went down to US70c, it would have made a whole lot of money. We are all very wise in hindsight when it comes to currency trading. Believe me, we are very wise in hindsight, but at the time, if the strategy is not on the table and if it is not followed very, very strictly, then I tell members there will be accusations of mismanagement and there will be court cases. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAgain, let me give members two examples. I used to deal with two large New Zealand companies that imported. One hedged for the whole time. The other one did not, because it took advice from\u2014I will not name of the bank, but one of New Zealand\u2019s largest banks. This was when the dollar was at around US50c. The bank said not to hedge and not to worry as the dollar would be up to about US55c by Christmas. By Christmas the dollar was down to US45c, and that company had lost about $2 million by just playing the currency markets. I suppose my point is that the council and anyone can take advice from a whole range of people who say they know how to play the currency markets\u2014what they are about and the best strategy to make money with them\u2014but no one knows and no one gets it right 100 percent of the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa6bcbcf50b45a68101885d4aaa636e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa6bcbcf50b45a68101885d4aaa636e\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f17bfd8c4ee04732a97c16be6f05c04c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 4; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 7; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000420\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5bb6db37538471d829040d7b4025a05\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00223d68e2c6e4cb4b6eb4d07b911a2231e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d68e2c6e4cb4b6eb4d07b911a2231e0\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We had some debate at the Local Government and Environment Committee about the commencement clause, and I will make a few comments about that. The Local Government Borrowing Bill as referred to the select committee provided in clause 2 for a deferred commencement. It provided for the bill to come into force on a day appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. We received a submission from the Regulations Review Committee, chaired by Charles Chauvel, that set out the committee\u2019s general disapproval of deferred commencement dates. It reminded us that the general issue is that if we provide for legislation to come into force by Order in Council, we are handing over a power to the executive to decide not only when but also whether that legislation should come into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe submission cited the Legislation Advisory Committee guidelines about the risks of deferred commencement\u2014namely, that the will of Parliament could be frustrated by an executive that no longer supports the policies in the bill, and that ultimately there was a risk that courts could be drawn into the legislative process if judicial review was invoked in an argument like that. There was a fair bit of discussion at the select committee about that, and I am sure my colleagues on the Government benches would be happy to get up to take a call and flesh out the discussion about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe ended up, I think, wanting to accommodate the concerns of the Regulations Review Committee but mindful that we wanted to get this legislation passed before the recess. We do not want to risk losing the momentum and the great work that had been done in the pre-establishment phase of the Local Government Funding Agency. So we have ended up, under clause 2(1), saying that Part 1\u2014which is really the meat and potatoes of the bill\u2014will come into force \u201Con the day after the Funding Agency is registered under the Companies Act 1993.\u201D That is the compromise, which we thought will go some way towards addressing the concerns raised by the Regulations Review Committee. The commencement is not an open-ended deferred commencement; it is tied to the fact that Part 1 will come into force on the day after the agency is registered under the Companies Act. There is a rider to that that if the agency is not established or registered under the Companies Act, Part 1 will be repealed 12 months after the date on which it receives Royal assent. That is a compromise, and one that goes some way towards meeting the concerns of the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EPart 2, on the other hand, has no amendment proposed by the select committee. It will come into force on the day after the date on which it receives Royal assent. It treats the provisions relating to the Auckland Council\u2019s ability to borrow on international markets quite separately, and will come into force on the day after Royal assent is given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022725ea942b38e4e1abaad87ed462bf134\u0022\u003ESupplementary  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000429\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Local Government Borrowing Bill and the Local Government (Auckland Council) Amendment Bill (No 2), pursuant to Order Paper279.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000430\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000431\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fdb96ef43ef472e99dba4f7118fff9e\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f38fe338c61b4892ba9a2d0b6d5b9751\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00227fa4b8526d3c41df8353af9411144a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fa4b8526d3c41df8353af9411144a75\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Given the progress that the House has made this afternoon, I seek leave for the House to now rise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e6b06fce6d40029af58ac9d826803d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for the House to rise at this stage. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20110908558a4a6b20724940ac35a67787aff25a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.49 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"